NOT GOOD, Worst deaths in 19 years

[Moi]

I don't put the bike in "storage", I ride all year round ... to improve both the enjoyment and survivability of motoring in general.


They're the same bullshit numbers any other govt cost center uses ... Nothing but hours on the road and eternal vigilance will prepare you for further hrs on the road.

Thank you James and Ocean for thoughtful and reasoned responses.

Thank you Mark Gilbert for an interesting propaganda piece! I'm sure you're reading this Mark and I mean propaganda in its truest sense... "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view". I doubt if the information you have used is 'misleading' but it is biased. Biased to what the government believes to be the answer to the crashes which involve motorcycles.

Yes, you support the Safer Journeys Action Plan which is great. And you advise ACC on how they can/could spend the Motorcycle Safety Levy fund. Both laudable actions. But meanwhile, there are more deaths and injuries involving motorcyclists. So why?

I'm going to suggest the reason why is that we are not learning from past mistakes, especially as a nation, as drivers or as riders. And why are we not learning? Because we are not being told what happened, why it possibly happened and what we could possibly do to prevent it in future.

As an aside, the placing of lower barriers - the underrun protection barriers - is an example of learning from past mistakes, but that has been known for a number of years from the European experience. There are a number of papers written about the ways to improve the safety of motorcyclists when they come off on an ordinary road and have contact with street furniture.

Back to learning from our mistakes... In the last fortnight the number of people killed or seriously injured on NZ roads has caused major headlines in many of the main stream media, and justifiably so! But that is too often the end of it. There is no reporting of the analysis of these crashes - the blame for that can be laid, in my opinion, at the feet of the media and at the feet of the authorities.

So where does the MSAC come in? MSAC is in a position to promote the reporting of the analysis and findings of these crashes and to promote recommendations from which riders and drivers can learn so they are safer on the road. It is not only a case for motorcyclists to 'learn from these crashes' but also drivers as drivers were also involved with a number of the motorcyclist deaths over this holiday period. In saying that I am not attributing blame on either party, just noting that both a motorcycle and another road vehicle were involved in many of the crashes and consequent deaths of the motorcyclist.

MSAC needs to be proactive; report the findings of crashes - both fatal and serious injury - involving motorcyclists, report the recommendations and, perhaps, critique the recommendations, support whatever is needed to make our roads safer for all road uses - even if that means pointing the finger at drivers who need to lift their game as well as at riders. Such actions may not make you 'flavour of the month' with some, too bad! If it saves lives and reduces the injuries then you have done what should be the main focus of the MSAC.

[pritch]

I would agree that experience beats reading a book or going to a riding school unless you are a beginner maybe. Riding schools from what I have read on here teach you to take every corner their way and while you may be able to get around some their way each corner should be treated as though their way may not be the safest way.

When my neice decided to get a bike I told her she was in a race, a race to acquire knowledge before she needed it. As has been mentioned already, experience tends to come after you needed it. Your suggested method of riding around in a state of blissful ignorance hopefully long enough to accumulate experience is frankly absurd. So too is your take on riding schools.



You had to beep your horn then? In my case there was no time.

This morning I opened David L Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling" at a random page and he was discussing "sudden crashes". Basically the victims of sudden crashes tend not to be paying attention sufficiently far ahead. When riding you should be aware of what is happening a minimum of twelve seconds ahead. Obviously at open road speeds, the distance you should be looking is further up the road than in town.

He recommends not following trucks or busses unnecessarily because these block your vision. If you are properly aware of your surroundings there should be few sudden surprises. The sudden crashes tend to happen to the people who are not paying proper attention.



Motorcycles in my opinion are actually easier to learn to ride than drive a car so you would have to not be very bright if it took you years to learn to ride one.

Ignoring the gratuitous insult to FJ Rider who usually comes across as reasonably intelligent, your opinion that motorcycles are easier to learn to ride than a car places you at variance with virtually everybody on the planet who actually does know anything about the subject. The reason it seems simple to you is that, as you continually demonstrate, you know fuck all about it.

If I had my way you would be banned from posting anything on KB that had any connection to riding technique or safety. You could contribute to the racing threads and inform us all what Marquez, Rossi, Lorenzo etc are doing wrong. That suggestion could come back and haunt me, but it won't be too bad because my tolerance for idiocy has been exceeded, you are going back on ignore.

:bye:

[onearmedbandit]

As for not liking my posts why the hell do you waste your time responding to them muppet?

Because a lot of what you say needs to be shown for what it is.

[Berries]

MSAC needs to be proactive; report the findings of crashes - both fatal and serious injury - involving motorcyclists, report the recommendations and, perhaps, critique the recommendations, support whatever is needed to make our roads safer for all road uses - even if that means pointing the finger at drivers who need to lift their game as well as at riders. Such actions may not make you 'flavour of the month' with some, too bad! If it saves lives and reduces the injuries then you have done what should be the main focus of the MSAC.
Apart from taking money from me every time I rego the bike MSAC are an irrelevance to me. If they are going to talk about motorbike statistics then they firstly need to take out the off road bikes. Crashes like this one in Cromwell over the holidays - http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/88001945/motorcyclist-dead-after-crashing-into-a-fence-near-cromwell should be taken out of the equation as it has no bearing on on-road motorcycle safety. They/we should only count and refer to on road bikes involved in crashes.

Then, like you said, they or some other body needs to report on what actually happened. Two crashes where TBTB say that speed was a factor are likely to have significant differences in what actually happened - someone with less experience overcooking a corner while within the advisory limit has something we can learn about. Someone losing it at 140km/h trying to get around a 55km/h curve is a bit different. Head on with a car - why? We are quick to blame the car driver but that is often not the case. Were they summer only or returning riders, were they young and full of adrenaline, how much riding experience did they actually have? Did they just fuck up? We should all be able to learn something from these incidents but apart from headlines for a day or two it all goes quiet.

Fatal on the Crown Range yesterday - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/lifesaving-efforts-no-avail. (https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/lifesaving-efforts-no-avail) This will be forgotten about in a couple of days by everyone bar family and witnesses. But what happened? The story and photo don't make for good reading.

If MSAC are reading this then perhaps they should consider a page on their website where the latest fatal or serious injury crash is dissected. The Civil Aviation Authority do it - https://www.caa.govt.nz/safety-info/fatal-accident-reports/ so I can't see why they can't put my money to use helping me learn from other people's mistakes rather than targeting the limited number of riders on the Coro Loop or Rimutaka Hill. If all it manages to do is highlight that our safety is in our own hands and not some random car driver that would be a good start.

[Moi]

Apart from taking money from me every time I rego the bike MSAC are an irrelevance to me ...

If MSAC are reading this then perhaps they should consider a page on their website where the latest fatal or serious injury crash is dissected. The Civil Aviation Authority do it - https://www.caa.govt.nz/safety-info/fatal-accident-reports/ so I can't see why they can't put my money to use helping me learn from other people's mistakes rather than targeting the limited number of riders on the Coro Loop or Rimutaka Hill. If all it manages to do is highlight that our safety is in our own hands and not some random car driver that would be a good start.

I guess we're standing at the same music stand and singing from the same score, and I'd, also, suggest that there are a few others on KB that would join us in the choir. The CAA site shows it can be done and sets a bench-mark for MSAC and ACC and the Police to follow, but I'm not holding my breath.

I agree about removing off-road crashes and those on farms involving either bikes or quads, but I somehow doubt ACC will do that. However, I do wonder if the crash in Cromwell you reference was a true off-road crash? Was he just being a fool on an off-road bike after a few too many drinks? Perhaps harsh but true if what was reported is to be believed: speed, alcohol and no helmet contributed to his death.

If we, as a country, are serious about reducing the road toll then we have to be serious about driving and riding, serious about talking about what caused the death/injury and serious about doing something about it. Until that happens the "she'll be right, mate" attitude will prevail.

Ride aware and ride safe.

[old slider]

I guess we're standing at the same music stand and singing from the same score, and I'd, also, suggest that there are a few others on KB that would join us in the choir. The CAA site shows it can be done and sets a bench-mark for MSAC and ACC and the Police to follow, but I'm not holding my breath.

I agree about removing off-road crashes and those on farms involving either bikes or quads, but I somehow doubt ACC will do that. However, I do wonder if the crash in Cromwell you reference was a true off-road crash? Was he just being a fool on an off-road bike after a few too many drinks? Perhaps harsh but true if what was reported is to be believed: speed, alcohol and no helmet contributed to his death.

If we, as a country, are serious about reducing the road toll then we have to be serious about driving and riding, serious about talking about what caused the death/injury and serious about doing something about it. Until that happens the "she'll be right, mate" attitude will prevail.

Ride aware and ride safe.


I live on a long straight sealed public road that gives several access points to the local beach, Everyday mostly mornings and evenings as the sun is at the worst height for bikers (visibility by other road users) they race up and down to get on the beach using many modes of bikes, there are varying types of quads, high powered motorcross, trail bikes etc, often it is Mum on the quad with little baby junior, Dads on a big grunty 4 stroke, the teenagers on high reving 2 smokers and the middle kids (4-9)yrs are on a 50 or 80cc mini bike , then there is the older or retired couples on their side x sides with fishing gear hanging off the tray. They are all in a mad rush to get onto the beach. The 2 to 5 kilometres of public roading needs to be covered as quickly as possible rather than travelling sedately until getting onto the open sandy race track where its mostly then the kids playing and other pedestrians who are risk. We have had several fatalities on the public roads around here, mostly Quads tipping over and unregistered off road two wheelers.

[russd7]

Fatal on the Crown Range yesterday - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/lifesaving-efforts-no-avail. (https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/lifesaving-efforts-no-avail) This will be forgotten about in a couple of days by everyone bar family and witnesses. But what happened? The story and photo don't make for good reading.

if ya read the article it pretty much states what happened, what it doesn't state is how he came to be on the wrong side of the road so therefor conclusions are jumped to

[Tazz]

mostly Quads tipping over and unregistered off road two wheelers.

Natural selection.

[AllanB]

Media shit -

The latest Ministry of Transport figures showed 54 motorcyclists died on New Zealand roads in 2015.

A further 1181 motorcyclists were injured in crashes.


How many car, truck, tractor drivers were injured in 2015?

Here: I found it all on the NZ transport website.


Motor Vehicle Crashes in New Zealand 2015

During the 2015 calendar year there were:

291 fatal road crashes
9,446 injury crashes
319 deaths
12,270 people injured
Casualty rates for 2015 were:

0.9 deaths per 10,000 vehicles
35 injuries per 10,000 vehicles
6.9 deaths per 100,000 population
267 injuries per 100,000 population
As well as the road crash statistics from CAS, Motor Vehicle Crashes in New Zealand includes national hospital, breath and blood alcohol, road user behaviour and comparative international statistics which relate to road crashes.

Reported injury crashes 2015

[Moi]

I live on a long straight sealed public road that gives several access points to the local beach ... We have had several fatalities on the public roads around here, mostly Quads tipping over and unregistered off road two wheelers.

Fair point. I should have made my position clearer. If the crash involves an off-roader or quad on public road then it is counted as "road crash", but those that happen on private property should not be counted as "bike accident" by ACC for statistical purposes.

What you describe beggars belief, but of course they're applying the "she'll be right" attitude...

[george formby]

What you describe beggars belief, but of course they're applying the "she'll be right" attitude...

I've resisted commenting thus far but your Kiwi-ism sums up my feelings about learning from experience. Far to often I hear drivers and riders complaining about others when they have a scare or off road excursion, blaming anything other than themselves. Classic lines like "I've been driving / riding 40 years", "it happened to fast to do anything", "it just skidded", "I don't know how it happened", "they should have moved", "he was going to fast", "gravel on the road", "a Pukeko knocked me off", etc.

The only people who learn from experience are those who are actually interested in learning, improving themselves. At times, the lack of thought about consequences is terrifying. Far to many road users limit their forward thinking to the distance they are looking ahead, a few feet in front of their vehicle. Bring it up in conversation and the strident cliches roll out. "My driving / riding is fine, the fact I'm sat here to say it is proof of that".

As is being suggested, hard facts from accidents may shake a few stubborn souls enough to recognize their own behaviour and make positive changes.

[old slider]

Fair point. I should have made my position clearer. If the crash involves an off-roader or quad on public road then it is counted as "road crash", but those that happen on private property should not be counted as "bike accident" by ACC for statistical purposes.

What you describe beggars belief, but of course they're applying the "she'll be right" attitude...


I love seeing people having some fun, but crikey many of these lunatics are not only risking themselves but the kids playing on the footpaths and other Law abiding road users. we are currently very privileged to be able to ride our unregistered bikes, quads etc from all around this suburb down to the beach, but I can see it wont be too many years before we have to load everything onto a trailer or a ute to travel these short distances.

[george formby]

I love seeing people having some fun, but crikey many of these lunatics are not only risking themselves but the kids playing on the footpaths and other Law abiding road users. we are currently very privileged to be able to ride our unregistered bikes, quads etc from all around this suburb down to the beach, but I can see it wont be too many years before we have to load everything onto a trailer or a ute to travel these short distances.

Beaches up here are being actively policed because of ignorant, selfish attitudes. Like at your place it's common to see vehicles flying along access roads and on the beaches regardless of kids, dogs, dust, Pukeko's etc. The attitude of the perpetrators is usually self entitlement.

[Moi]

... As is being suggested, hard facts from accidents may shake a few stubborn souls enough to recognize their own behaviour and make positive changes.

I do wonder if even for them it will be: There Are None So Blind As Those Who Will Not See
... Heywood, Swift and others.

[nzspokes]

Following a truck while they block your vision they will and not you be wearing a head on if a muppet coming the other way decides to cross the centre line.

What the actual fuck are you trying to say? English a second language?

[Moi]

I love seeing people having some fun, but crikey many of these lunatics are not only risking themselves but the kids playing on the footpaths and other Law abiding road users. we are currently very privileged to be able to ride our unregistered bikes, quads etc from all around this suburb down to the beach, but I can see it wont be too many years before we have to load everything onto a trailer or a ute to travel these short distances.

Agree.

However, you've used the word that will mean the end of it all for those who are sensible... "lunatics" and with that the lowest common denominator theory kicks in...

[george formby]

What the actual fuck are you trying to say? English a second language?

Yoda speak. The Farce is strong. Hmmmmm.

[Akzle]

I just perhaps have a different style that they can not comprehend.

oh i'm pretty sure we comprehend #ridingintoshitrepeatedly.

...we just don't think it's styley

[scumdog]

most people don't rely on luck not to ride in to shit.


.

An awful lot don't realise that only luck prevented them ending up in a tangle of steel and flesh...

[Berries]

if ya read the article it pretty much states what happened, what it doesn't state is how he came to be on the wrong side of the road
My point being that we will never know because it will be forgotten about and just become another statistic for us to be beaten with. Rather than that why don't we take to opportunity to learn something, to learn what to do or what not to do in similar circumstances? Could save someone else.

[nzspokes]

No not as styley as perhaps those that like to touch the road with their knees when cornering or have the ablity to "keep up" on a group ride but I may just live longer than those guys.

The local dog population is not fairing so well though......

[AllanB]

My guess would be most guys that would come to grief would be on either cruisers or sports bikes.

Ah, you are most likely correct as you have named the two most popular styles road bikes! :lol:


The nakeds (for want of another name as 'standard' no longer applies as many are far from standard!) are making a big comeback :2thumbsup

[swbarnett]

I have been riding without a mid life crisis break since 1976 so possibly know more about riding than many of my attackers on here.
You hypocrite. First you claim that it only takes a year to learn to ride and nothing more can be learned. Then you turn around and say that the number of years you've been riding past that first year makes you a more knowledgeable rider.


I just perhaps have a different style that they can not comprehend.
Yeah, one that keeps you running into things. It's actually you that doesn't comprehend. You don't know enough to know what you don't know.


If I was so wrong with my theories I would be long dead by now.
There are literally millions of people that live a long life on "luck" alone in the blissful ignorance that what they believe is complete and utter bullshit. Why should you be any different?

[caseye]

Just make those who cause crashes pay a higher ACC premium on their registration. If that does not motivate people to drive/ride safer nothing will unless maybe they make far more motoring offenses jailable.

You'd be one of the first ones to find that They could NOT afford to ride, by your own admission!


Either we all pay the same levy or we don't, you start messing with what is paid, you screw, OH Wait, that's right this mob have done just that and look wheres it's getting us. More deaths than ever before.


Make comprehensive Insurance Premiums payable as part of your Registrtion. It doesn't have to be expensive, if every licenced driver paid the same amount ONCE per year for any vehicle they drove/rode, operated, it'd work out relatively inexpensive overall.


No Rego, No Warrantable Vehicle, No Insurance, No ACC Cover."


No in depth actual fact reporting, just mass hysteria, Facts please and stop saying motorcyclists are over represented, there are now more than 6 times as many riders on our roads as there was when figures were last assimilated.
Not to say we're not killing ourslevs at a great rate of knots, we are.
Done over 2300K's in the last week, From Dorklnd to the Bottom, and back to the top ( Literally) of the North Island, worst shit I and wifey have seen is stupids pricks on bikes doing far too much and not giving a damn about their fellow road users.
Today we had to filter through Wellsford and Warkworth, took us about 5 - 10 mminute in both cases, cars had to take at least 1.5 hours to get through each place, most drivers moved over for us, we were not going stupid, just quietly idling through, those we spoke with (saying thanks etc) were brilliant, the police we passed waved us on, other motorcyclists roared through abusing people and forcing their way through, they got saluted and blocked in, causing bigger problems, I guess, we didn't stop to find out, why would we.
I'm not sure it's my advancing years or the numbers are actually as high as it seems but it's my considered opinion that there are more FOOLS on bikes out there than ever before.
Due in no uncertain part I'm sure to stupid advice given by stupid people about dangerous manouvers and behaviours, that most certainly should not be condoned or allowed to go unchecked in places like ours here.

[Ocean1]

My point being that we will never know because it will be forgotten about and just become another statistic for us to be beaten with. Rather than that why don't we take to opportunity to learn something, to learn what to do or what not to do in similar circumstances? Could save someone else.

There's a bunch of industries that have attempted to copy the aeronautical industry's well proven methodology over the years. The entire health industry for one.

The thing is you need to be open to the possibility that individual investigations AND the eventual historical data arising from them may not agree with you.

And a disturbing number of industry and govt leaders find that an insurmountable problem with the system...

[russd7]

My point being that we will never know because it will be forgotten about and just become another statistic for us to be beaten with. Rather than that why don't we take to opportunity to learn something, to learn what to do or what not to do in similar circumstances? Could save someone else.

:niceone: yup understood that, but one would have to agree that by including what the cop said in the article it automatically lays the blame on the motorcyclist and now may be dragged up and used at a later date by anyone who wants to prove that "life is cheap to that sort".

now if the results of the ensuing investigation were to be published and it came out that there was some other cause beyond the riders control then the previous article could be debunked, therefor it is not in the best interest of media or those against motorcycling to have those results published :no:

[russd7]

Ah, you are most likely correct as you have named the two most popular styles road bikes! :lol:


The nakeds (for want of another name as 'standard' no longer applies as many are far from standard!) are making a big comeback :2thumbsup

based on previous assumptions made by he/she who knows all must therefor mean that we should all go out and buy naked bikes to be safe :Punk::bleh:

[FJRider]

An awful lot don't realise that only luck prevented them ending up in a tangle of steel and flesh...

An awful lot DO have that ... um ... skill .... :laugh:

It does help keep the ACC levies down though ... :innocent:

[FJRider]

No not as styley as perhaps those that like to touch the road with their knees when cornering or have the ablity to "keep up" on a group ride but I may just live longer than those guys.

With your admitted riding record and admitted skill level and demonstrated knowledge of motorcycling ... you might.


If you do not ride a motorcycle.

[FJRider]

Type of bike where the rider is at fault would be interesting to know too. My guess would be most guys that would come to grief would be on either cruisers or sports bikes.

There are many accidents involving Holden and Toyota sedans ... perhaps an increased ACC levy for those owners too .... :shifty:

[Blackbird]

Type of bike where the rider is at fault would be interesting to know too. My guess would be most guys that would come to grief would be on either cruisers or sports bikes.

I would like to know of those who came to grief, how many had taken some form of upskilling in (say) the last 2 or 3 years. The result might be quite telling.

Coincidentally, I had an email a few days ago from a friend in Geelong. He pointed me to this article: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/go-and-get-some-riding-lessons-police-lament-increase-in-motorcyclist-deaths-20170101-gtkh80.html

I was extremely surprised at the percentage of unlicensed machines and unregistered riders in the stats. Probably not the people who would take well to upskilling or self-criticism either.

[ellipsis]

It would be a boring site if we all had the same theories about riding. I have been riding without a mid life crisis break since 1976 so possibly know more about riding than many of my attackers on here. I just perhaps have a different style that they can not comprehend. If I was so wrong with my theories I would be long dead by now.



...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa...oh, fuck me with a nine foot barge pole, that is a funny post...you're a fucking comedian too...

[FJRider]

Following a truck, while they block your vision ... they will (and not you) be wearing a head on if a muppet coming the other way decides to cross the centre line. So there is pros and cons with all riding school theory and you may note another poster has found riding school theory less than ideal for them as well. As for not liking my posts why the hell do you waste your time responding to them muppet?

A good theory ... but ...

If your vision is blocked, you will not see that car and know the truck will soon come to a very sudden stop ... which (usually) will block the entire road ahead of you and leave you nowhere to go. Surprisingly ... a motorcycle doing a nose to tail with a truck (even on a good day) is usually painful.

[ellipsis]

A good theory ... but ...

If your vision is blocked, you will not see that car and know the truck will soon come to a very sudden stop ... which (usually) will block the entire road ahead of you and leave you nowhere to go. Surprisingly ... a motorcycle doing a nose to tail with a truck (even on a good day) is usually painful.


...draughting a HG Holden station wagon on a 10 Speed Healing is hard on your face when they stop suddenly, is too...I can vouch for that...

[ellipsis]

A good theory ... but ...

If your vision is blocked, you will not see that car and know the truck will soon come to a very sudden stop ... which (usually) will block the entire road ahead of you and leave you nowhere to go. Surprisingly ... a motorcycle doing a nose to tail with a truck (even on a good day) is usually painful.


...draughting a HG Holden station wagon on a 10 Speed Healing is hard on your face when they stop suddenly is too...I can vouch for that...

[AllanB]

...draughting a HG Holden station wagon on a 10 Speed Healing is hard on your face when they stop suddenly is too...I can vouch for that...

Ha - similar incident when younger but it was knackering myself on the bikes upper bar that I remember the most ...... probably why I never made it near six foot in height.

[FJRider]

... but those that happen on private property should not be counted as "bike accident" by ACC for statistical purposes.



Motorcycles involved an an accident (anywhere) alone or with another vehicle (including cars)... are counted as motorcycle accidents.

[caspernz]

Fatal on the Crown Range yesterday - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/lifesaving-efforts-no-avail. (https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/lifesaving-efforts-no-avail) This will be forgotten about in a couple of days by everyone bar family and witnesses. But what happened? The story and photo don't make for good reading.

If MSAC are reading this then perhaps they should consider a page on their website where the latest fatal or serious injury crash is dissected. The Civil Aviation Authority do it - https://www.caa.govt.nz/safety-info/fatal-accident-reports/ so I can't see why they can't put my money to use helping me learn from other people's mistakes rather than targeting the limited number of riders on the Coro Loop or Rimutaka Hill. If all it manages to do is highlight that our safety is in our own hands and not some random car driver that would be a good start.

Absolutely, I'm all for having some form of incident reporting made public, not from a morbid fascination but in an effort to not repeat someone else's mistake. But until safety is taken seriously...




I agree about removing off-road crashes and those on farms involving either bikes or quads, but I somehow doubt ACC will do that. However, I do wonder if the crash in Cromwell you reference was a true off-road crash? Was he just being a fool on an off-road bike after a few too many drinks? Perhaps harsh but true if what was reported is to be believed: speed, alcohol and no helmet contributed to his death.

If we, as a country, are serious about reducing the road toll then we have to be serious about driving and riding, serious about talking about what caused the death/injury and serious about doing something about it. Until that happens the "she'll be right, mate" attitude will prevail.

Yes, the perception is that the road going guys cop the most flack, and we don't know with certainty how many are actually off-road incidents.



if ya read the article it pretty much states what happened, what it doesn't state is how he came to be on the wrong side of the road so therefor conclusions are jumped to

The downside is that without the accident report it's too much of an assumption for my thinking.




Make comprehensive Insurance Premiums payable as part of your Registrtion. It doesn't have to be expensive, if every licenced driver paid the same amount ONCE per year for any vehicle they drove/rode, operated, it'd work out relatively inexpensive overall.

No Rego, No Warrantable Vehicle, No Insurance, No ACC Cover."

I'm not sure it's my advancing years or the numbers are actually as high as it seems but it's my considered opinion that there are more FOOLS on bikes out there than ever before.
Due in no uncertain part I'm sure to stupid advice given by stupid people about dangerous manouvers and behaviours, that most certainly should not be condoned or allowed to go unchecked in places like ours here.

No insurance, no rego, no licence, my perception this isn't treated as a serious offence in NZ. In my home country any of these three would soon see you lose the vehicle you're caught on/with. The right vs privilege to operate a vehicle is at play here.



There's a bunch of industries that have attempted to copy the aeronautical industry's well proven methodology over the years. The entire health industry for one.

The thing is you need to be open to the possibility that individual investigations AND the eventual historical data arising from them may not agree with you.

And a disturbing number of industry and govt leaders find that an insurmountable problem with the system...

The funny thing is that in my industry there's a tendency to misrepresent, or sweep under the carpet, some of the things that are likely to be "inconvenient" for TPTB down the track. Sad, but that's life I guess...



I would like to know of those who came to grief, how many had taken some form of upskilling in (say) the last 2 or 3 years. The result might be quite telling.

Coincidentally, I had an email a few days ago from a friend in Geelong. He pointed me to this article: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/go-and-get-some-riding-lessons-police-lament-increase-in-motorcyclist-deaths-20170101-gtkh80.html

I was extremely surprised at the percentage of unlicensed machines and unregistered riders in the stats. Probably not the people who would take well to upskilling or self-criticism either.

Too right, knowing whether someone had worked on improving their skills in recent years, would make for interesting accident statistics over the long term. It's a shame really that accident stats are lacking in sufficient detail for them to be used in a preventative manner.

Unlicensed riders and/or bikes annoys me personally, for I make it a point to stay legal, regardless of whether I like it or not. But yeah, the group of riders who are resistant to upskilling...oh boy, there's some Darwin Award candidates in that lot.

[george formby]

A good theory ... but ...

If your vision is blocked, you will not see that car and know the truck will soon come to a very sudden stop ... which (usually) will block the entire road ahead of you and leave you nowhere to go. Surprisingly ... a motorcycle doing a nose to tail with a truck (even on a good day) is usually painful.

There is a photo on the webs of a rider who ended up with his head jammed into the back of a truck, sudden braking issue I suspect. The truck kept on rolling, oblivious. In the photo of the deceased, he has no feet..... Some ride.

[Akzle]

I was extremely surprised at the percentage of unlicensed machines and unregistered riders in the stats. Probably not the people who would take well to upskilling or self-criticism either.
not at all. choosing not to register or license shit is just that, a choice. i take advantage of any opportunity to upskill myself (in anything) and, this will shock you, am no stranger to criticism.


I have said I have been in crashes not caused them. There is a big difference which you may or may not comprehend.

the fact that you can be in a dozen, and still don't think your doing it wrong...

bad luck eh sport?

[caspernz]

There is a photo on the webs of a rider who ended up with his head jammed into the back of a truck, sudden braking issue I suspect. The truck kept on rolling, oblivious. In the photo of the deceased, he has no feet..... Some ride.

There's also the chance that the biker's speed differential to the 18 wheeler was of the order of 2 or 3, but the end result is much the same. Quite a sobering photo, if it's the one I'm thinking of, no full size coffin required :facepalm::innocent:

[Moi]

Motorcycles involved an an accident (anywhere) alone or with another vehicle (including cars)... are counted as motorcycle accidents.

That's part of the problem, from my perspective. If Farmer Joe comes off his farm bike out the back of his farm and injuries himself - not killed, just injured - then as far as ACC is concerned, as far as I am aware, that is a bike accident and is included with all other bike accidents whether they occurred on a public road or not, thus it affects the levy that we pay. That's the problem...

Farmer Joe's accident should be attributed to "farm accidents" rather than bike accidents...

[FJRider]

That's part of the problem, from my perspective. If Farmer Joe comes off his farm bike out the back of his farm and injuries himself - not killed, just injured - then as far as ACC is concerned, as far as I am aware, that is a bike accident and is included with all other bike accidents whether they occurred on a public road or not, thus it affects the levy that we pay. That's the problem...

Farmer Joe's accident should be attributed to "farm accidents" rather than bike accidents...

You can prove anything you want with statistics ... but only if you use the right statistics. Change the questions and you get a different result.

[T.W.R]

There is a photo on the webs of a rider who ended up with his head jammed into the back of a truck, sudden braking issue I suspect. The truck kept on rolling, oblivious. In the photo of the deceased, he has no feet..... Some ride.

The guy hit the truck at near 150mph they reckon....it was enough of an impact the helmet wedged into the alloy bin hanging the rider there like a rag doll. The truck was parked off the edge of the road near an off ramp, the impact actually moved the truck & the driver thought he'd been hit by another truck.
It was on ride2die.com

[Moi]

... No insurance, no rego, no licence, my perception this isn't treated as a serious offence in NZ. In my home country any of these three would soon see you lose the vehicle you're caught on/with. The right vs privilege to operate a vehicle is at play here ...

Many countries have that perception: driving/riding is a privilege not a right, they also take a far more serious attitude to driving and riding... certainly something we could do here, if we were serious about reducing the road toll and improving driving/riding standards.


Unlicensed riders and/or bikes annoys me personally, for I make it a point to stay legal, regardless of whether I like it or not. But yeah, the group of riders who are resistant to upskilling...oh boy, there's some Darwin Award candidates in that lot.

If you want to play the game then you need to follow the rules... or get off the field!

[Big Dog]

As for not liking my posts why the hell do you waste your time responding to them muppet?

How about because you erroneously construe it as support if we do not contradict you, citing a lack of complaints as proof we agree.
You can't have it both ways.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[Big Dog]

It would be a boring site if we all had the same theories about riding. I have been riding without a mid life crisis break since 1976 so possibly know more about riding than many of my attackers on here. I just perhaps have a different style that they can not comprehend. If I was so wrong with my theories I would be long dead by now.
Or lucky.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[MSTRS]

...there are more FOOLS on bikes out there than ever before...

Haven't been on KB or posted for quite a while, but I have to respond to this, Caseye. There are more FOOLS on the roads than ever before, regardless of their chosen weapon. The scary thing is, every fkg one of those fools will claim they are a safe driver or rider - and it's "those idiots that are the real problem".

[FJRider]

That would assume i was tailgating the truck. Also trucks do not stop as sudden as cars which would give me more time to brake.

If you were close enough to the truck to not see the car .... you would be tailgating. Car truck head on's stop the trucks pretty quickly. You may not even see brake lights ..

The 2 second following distance at speeds of less than 90 km/hr isn't great.

[Madness]

The local dog population is not fairing so well though......

. :corn:

[WristTwister]

I had a discussion on this with some friends, one thing that came up was that if motorcyclists are involved in accidents they are more likely to die.

So what improves our chances?

Not being involved in accidents.

On a Fool’s Errand: Teaching Riding Judgement
Judgement comes with experience, but can new riders observe and imagine their way to good judgement?

http://www.cycleworld.com/teaching-good-motorcycle-riding-judgement-nick-ienatsch-tuesday

[Akzle]

That would assume i was tailgating the truck. Also trucks do not stop as sudden as cars which would give me more time to brake.

trucks stop faster.

[nzspokes]

So I guess you would prefer then to take your chances and risk a head on, on a bend over risking rear ending a truck.

Only a foooool breakes the 2 second ruullle.

[WristTwister]

What 2 second rule? The closer I drive to the car in front, the faster I get to my destination!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeTQNrXxmVA

[caseye]

That would assume i was tailgating the truck. Also trucks do not stop as sudden as cars which would give me more time to brake.
BET YOU WERE! YES THEY DO! YOU HAVEN'T DONE THAT AT LEAST 7 TIMES SO FAR?????




Again, you outline a scenario where there are only 2 options, rear end a truck or have a head on, try being far enough back that you don't rear end anyone and explore the posibility of making sure your road is clear before overtaking anything/one and most definitey not on a blind brow.

Already saved your next accident ten times over.

MSTRS, say Hi to Tarty for us aye, probably right on both counts mate, but the ones I do get to see/eyeball are all considerably younger than my 50 plus years. I do obviously know a number of folk my age and much older, who seem to have death wishes and do travel at way too fast warp nine, who lose a mate every so often and think thats normal. I'd rather get to where I was going than maybe.

[Voltaire]

I've been riding for 30+ years, knocked off my Z1000 by an old lady coming out of a side street who did not see me.
Hit some diesel turning and fell off in Otahuhu on the Z1000
Managed to not fall off in Australia for 2 years, knocked off in London twice lanesplitting, BMW r100 RS.
fallen off twice here in the last 8 years, once off an FXR150 at Mt Welly and once off the BMW at Taupo.
Did 4000 kms in Vietnam and India and did not fall off.

Conclusion- Honda 150 Firehawks and Royal Enfield Bullets ridden two up are safer than large bikes.

Riding to the BM recently on my 42 year old BMW observed than modern bikes go very fast and need constant coffee stops.
When motorcyclists say " the South Island is great on a motorcycle" they do not mean that that the scenery is nice.:rolleyes:

In Vietnam their Motorcycle awareness posters consist of decapitated riders, lots of blood and body parts. Here its a slow mo video clip of smarmy Sales Rep going too fast running into side of nice bloke with a kid and you have to make up the rest.
Given the publics love for crap like GOT, put more gore on the ACC adds

[FJRider]

So I guess you would prefer then to take your chances and risk a head on, on a bend over risking rear ending a truck.

I would ..

[pritch]

I would ..

There are other options, Cassina only offered the two most dangerous.:crazy: There would be no need to do a dangerous overtake, you could do a safe one as oportunity presented, or change lanes, or you could drop back a bit until it was safe to go. None of these options appear to have crossed her tiny mind.:brick:

[Akzle]

I would have thought.

now now. don't go exagerating.


But I have read safety advice in the media about trucks that they can not brake as quickly as cars.

i believe everything on stuff.co.nz. your probably right.




//o... wait on.

braking and stopping are two different things.

all things being equal, a rigid truck in a straight line lockup will stop faster than a car on the same stretch.
an artic with the suspension loaded going around a corner, on the other hand, will fuck up everyone's day if it has to drop anchor.


How quick would depend on size and weight carried

fun fact. trucks, by definition, are bigger and heavier than cars.

[caseye]

But I have read safety advice in the media about trucks that they can not brake as quickly as cars. How quick would depend on size and weight carried I would have thought.


Here we go again!
Sigh,Did what you read tell you tht a fully loaded truck applying it's brek in an emergency literally locks up all of the wheels and it most certainly stops much quicker than most cars and definitely quicker than any bike,ABS and or rider skills might mitigate some riders form said statement, b ut most would not stop before a truck, laden or unladen.
Your reading material is obviously as one dimensional as you appear to be.
Again, you only talk in terms of the wort case.
Most of us have not experienced nearly as many worst cases at it appears you have and have no concept of the amount of fear you must ride around in constantly, we read, we ride, we practice safe/ish riding most of the time and generally we are prepared for what comes our way on any given day.
Since when does the media?????????? qualify as a source of information of any sort that is either accurate or UnBiased? In particular reference to motorcyclists here in NZ our media is most certainly against any form of transport that isn't on 4 wheels, surely you must know that?????????

[Katman]

My point being that we will never know because it will be forgotten about and just become another statistic for us to be beaten with. Rather than that why don't we take to opportunity to learn something, to learn what to do or what not to do in similar circumstances? Could save someone else.

Because generally speaking motorcyclists don't like talking about accidents where the fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the motorcyclist.

They'd rather come out with trite bullshit like "ride free brother" and "at least he died doing what he loved" - and will label any discussion of the rider's faults as "way out of line".

[caseye]

And once the overtake has been done the risk of a head on, on a bend still remains which seems not to have crossed your tiny mind.

Someone once told me they thought cassina was a troll.
I gave this serous consideration and almost talked myself into believing they could have been right.
Now I know It isn't a troll.
It's too damned stupid to be a troll.
Didn't Pritch say complete a safe ovetake, as opportunity presented" ??? where then is the danger, there wasn't any because like most of us we'd take the option that meant there was no danger, not Ride On like a blinded mule head on into a train!"Still believing there were only 2 options to choose from and both of them potentially fatal.
Go and put your head back where it came from.

[KawasakiKid]

Overtaking, head ons, truck stopping distances, bloody hell ! We all need training, ongoing in one way or another. Things keep changing, motorcycles, other vehicles, etc too.

We need to pay attention ....I treat everyone else out on the road as a potential hazard, riding with courtesy and I like to think, some skills. I work on my skills every time I ride.

And the law is not there to help you, sometimes it hinders. The laws cannot make you a better rider. I break the law every time I get on a bike. I cannot remember a time when I have not once broken the speed limit during a ride, I often pull wheelies, and I have fun, but I try to have fun safely and with courtesy. Sometimes I go far too fast in the eyes of others. I make no excuse for that. I like to make my own space when I ride, and I definitely own my part of the road.

But I have not crashed on a public road, or caused a crash, for over 40 years and around 2M kilometres. A couple of lowsides as an overzealous teenager of course, I am certainly no saint. I usually ride alone or with a small group of friends, don't like the big group rides though have been on a few....they feel more dangerous in general. More idiots. I am never in fear on a bike, feels like I was born on one and nothing is more natural to me than being at home on 2 wheels. I love it, but it saddens me when I see the disregard of some. It is true, some people should never ride a bike. I enjoy training others but will never encourage anyone to ride, or learn unless they want to. They must want to do it without me pushing them into it. They must have the passion.

And to Cassina, you seem eager to bait your audience. At times it is good to listen to others, why don't you take a rider training course, you may enjoy it. You may also feel it helps you. You seem to have a passion for bikes, use it wisely. But if you have no passion, maybe you need to take the car from now on.

[caseye]

So you think head on collisions can not happen on bends. Well you really are a muppet then.

Um, excuse me, but if I'm not across the other guys lane then I'm not having a head on with anyone.
Course they might be in my lane and it might be a blind bend. but you know what, the last time that happened I used my motorcycles ability to change direction and rode back into my side and around the front of them, once a long time ago, I got lucky and after making sure there was no one else on the other side of the road I was able to simply cross to the other side ( that made my hackles rise) and avoid the fool on my side.
I usually ride with my eyes and ears open, it's worked so far.
Call me a muppet again please.
At least my observtions are accurate, stupid is actually too damned demeaning to idiots.

[FJRider]

And once the overtake has been done the risk of a head on, on a bend still remains which seems not to have crossed your tiny mind.

If that is your greatest fear ... stay off the road.

OR ... avoid roads with bends ... (problem solved)

[FJRider]

So you think head on collisions can not happen on bends. Well you really are a muppet then.

The majority of head-on's occur on straight roads.

[FJRider]

Its not the media that hate us its ACC. While you dont believe the media why should anyone else for that matter consider you as a better authority than the media? I agree with you that the media are very limited in what facts they can report and for all you and I know there may be stories where they have wanted to report more but have been constrained for legal/political reasons.

The media LOVE motorcyclists. Reporting deaths and serious injury's ... with a photo of a motorcycle on its side in the middle of the road adds to the value. If parts of the motorcycle are strewn around ... extra value. As are shots of helmets with smashed visors ... bloodstains are an extra bonus.

Facts are for amateur reporters ... innuendo and hearsay mixed with a little dose speculation sell papers. Remember the old saying ... never let the truth stand in the way of a good story ... well it still holds true.

ACC love us too ... our large levy's help keep their cash figures in the black.

[AllanB]

You don't see the solid advertising for the 2 second rule anymore - there was a big push on this for years when I was younger (maybe 80's).


Try it now and you'll just find people passing you (regardless of your speed) and popping into your safety gap.


Hmm motorcyclists are one of the worst for tailgating (pre-pass) and popping into 'gaps'. Have you noticed when you pop into that gap most times the car behind backs wayyy off. Occasionally some knob rides your tail. I find this does not last long as I remove the stock shovels and use a tail tidy - that full tyre look is the bizz and also throws up a load of road shit for quite some distance!

[FJRider]

Try it now and you'll just find people passing you (regardless of your speed) and popping into your safety gap.




And 50 km's on ... they're still only 10 seconds ahead. But they are in front so all is good ...

[george formby]

- there was a big push on this for years when I was younger (maybe 80's).


!

:pinch: Crikey, young in your 80's. How old are you now?

[onearmedbandit]

If only people paid attention to the advice of Honda in 1962, half of this thread wouldn't exist...

[george formby]

Aha! The origin of the "Skid Demon"! Cheers. :2thumbsup

[caspernz]

If only people paid attention to the advice of Honda in 1962, half of this thread wouldn't exist...

Please pay attention to #4. So much hurt could be avoided.

Strangely enough the type of Engrish used even seems familiar...:wacko::sweatdrop

[old slider]

Great thread, certainly makes me think about how and when I go riding for pleasure, The other times are usually out of necessity.

Has been a few nasty bike crashes in my area, one was a HD going up a twisty steep road meeting a large 4x4 vehicle coming down, the hill has been used for Hill climbing trials, I am unsure how they met( heard the 4x4 was well over the center line but of course the 4x4 came out on top.
The other was in the same area, yet again another HD following a slow travelling car through some windy bits at a safe distance, on entering a straight section of country road the Bike indicated with blinkers it was going to pass and initiated the overtake, just as the motorcycle was quickly approaching the vehicle on the right side of the road the car suddenly turned right into a gateless driveway without indicating its intentions, same result.

[FJRider]

The riding you describe here is what I see group riders do when under pressure to keep up.

Nope ... they're trying to show everyone what skilled riders they are. But few of the others actually care ...

[FJRider]

If only people paid attention to the advice of Honda in 1962, half of this thread wouldn't exist...

Would I know if somebody obstacled my passage ... and can they do it without my permission .. ??? :confused:

[caseye]

The riding you describe here is what I see group riders do when under pressure to keep up.

Wait a minute! You don't do group rides.
How then can you now claim to be prersent and see such behaviour?
Make up your mind.

[eldog]

Would I know if somebody obstacled my passage ... and can they do it without my permission .. ??? :confused:

i would hope you would know. :eek5:

Dont need your permission, willing or not. It's a free country, but most tend to do whatever they want.
if they are bigger than you look out.

Had to stop in Cannons Creek shopping mall during the break. Sure got outa there quick smart, the locals there didn't look like they cared whatever they did.

[rastuscat]

They don't count - fuckers don't pay rego and associated ACC fees to ride a bicycle. Indeed one could then argue that they may cost the taxpayer MORE than a motorcyclist as ignoring deaths (sadness), there are no doubt a shit load of cycle injuries and not one rider contributes directly to ACC .......

I'd like to see those wanky, Lycra clad group riders wearing number plates so I can report the ignorant fuckers.

I just don't get it - most of the fuckers are my age (early 50's) but pull on their vege and bean exposing (or lack of) lycra suits then ride their carbon cycles like ignorant dumb fucks .....

Hmmmm, maybe they are the ones doing the same on alternative weekends pulling on leathers and helmet .....

Here we go.

While I was out riding my bicycle this morning I was paying ACC levies on 2 cars, two motorcycles, a caravan and a trailer.

Remind me again how I'm not paying ACC levies?

[awayatc]

They don't count - fuckers don't pay rego and associated ACC fees to ride a bicycle. Indeed one could then argue that they may cost the taxpayer MORE than a motorcyclist as ignoring deaths (sadness), there are no doubt a shit load of cycle injuries and not one rider contributes directly to ACC .......

I'd like to see those wanky, Lycra clad group riders wearing number plates so I can report the ignorant fuckers.

I just don't get it - most of the fuckers are my age (early 50's) but pull on their vege and bean exposing (or lack of) lycra suits then ride their carbon cycles like ignorant dumb fucks .....

Hmmmm, maybe they are the ones doing the same on alternative weekends pulling on leathers and helmet .....

Being intolerant to an extremely vulnerable lot is unbecoming....

Grow up and get over yourself. ...

[T.W.R]

The riding you describe here is what I see group riders do when under pressure to keep up.

You must have sad lonely life
Bet you're as popular as a dose of the shits in the smoko room at your work because you're antagonistic, peanut brained halfwit

[nzspokes]

Here we go.

While I was out riding my bicycle this morning I was paying ACC levies on 2 cars, two motorcycles, a caravan and a trailer.

Remind me again how I'm not paying ACC levies?

Oh, you are one of thooose people.

[AllanB]

Here we go.

While I was out riding my bicycle this morning I was paying ACC levies on 2 cars, two motorcycles, a caravan and a trailer.

Remind me again how I'm not paying ACC levies?

Simple - you are not paying for the use of your bicycle while riding on public roads.

When using the other vehicles you have contributed :yes:

But I was really having a poke - as if some Politician actually suggested this then they would have to consider horses as well - and what about the dogs walking on footpaths - little shitting fuckers should be contributing towards the council surely? Cats can be imune from this as they do whatever they like anyway and it would piss off Gareth Morgan.

Fuck it - old people with mobility scooters or walking frames should be registered as well.

And Albinos - they give you the shits when you see one - must be dangerous to road users so ACC them up the Wahzoo.

Some of the above may make more sense than some of Cassinas previous posts!

[AllanB]

Being intolerant to an extremely vulnerable lot is unbecoming....

Grow up and get over yourself. ...



You miss the point sir - the way they ride in packs all over the friggen road around here is making themselves extremely vulnerable. It is irresponsible.

I'd get you some footage on a go-pro but I hate those dam things. Seriously who watches that shit? It's not like you can post anything online anymore as if you break the law someone will see it on Youtube and knock on your door. Best to wear a tin-foil hat.

And is not this thread all about responsible riding? On two wheels?

[old slider]

You miss the point sir - the way they ride in packs all over the friggen road around here is making themselves extremely vulnerable. It is irresponsible.

I'd get you some footage on a go-pro but I hate those dam things. Seriously who watches that shit? It's not like you can post anything online anymore as if you break the law someone will see it on Youtube and knock on your door. Best to wear a tin-foil hat.

And is not this thread all about responsible riding? On two wheels?


I have to agree, the way many of them, not all, but especially those born again cyclists, you know, those with grey or white hair and sometimes even grey or white goatees that have decided because they could ride a bike when at school, why not now, they wander all over the road, unstable, have slow reflexes and their necks are so stiff they can not look back over their shoulder, yep those ones, they piss me off. lol

[nzspokes]

I have to agree, the way many of them, not all, but especially those born again cyclists, you know, those with grey or white hair and sometimes even grey or white goatees that have decided because they could ride a bike when at school, why not now, they wander all over the road, unstable, have slow reflexes and their necks are so stiff they can not look back over their shoulder, yep those ones, they piss me off. lol

They sound like Harley riders.

[Berries]

I have to agree, the way many of them, not all, but especially those born again cyclists, you know, those with grey or white hair and sometimes even grey or white goatees that have decided because they could ride a bike when at school, why not now, they wander all over the road, unstable, have slow reflexes and their necks are so stiff they can not look back over their shoulder, yep those ones, they piss me off. lol
You talking motorbikes or push bikes?

[Paul in NZ]

Ok so rather than spend time ripping other posters to shreds I went for a ride....

Hmm - I wonder... I rode the 1970 TR6C.. Its a peach of a bike, yes its underpowered and under braked by modern standards but it simply follows its nose and rides exactly like you would think a motorcycle should ride.. Its a delight - you dont need to think about it, you just ride it. Beautifully balanced, easy to ride and natural...

Now - the ST 1050... Praised as a paragon of a sports tourer and ours has had extensive suspension upgrades. The last time it was serviced the tech said it was the smoothest ST he had ever riden (down to the sus mods)... It handles well but its far from natural (to me) and you need to be onto it 100% of the time... Once you get the hang of it - you are away but its a skill you need to obtain because its not an obviously natural thing... Theres a lot of power (well I can dream) and a lot of mass to get turning in so you need to be very very deliberate...

My old Moto Guzzi LM2 was about the last generation of big wheel bikes and had more in common with the TR6C than the ST...

my point... Modern bikes need a lot more technical skills, are bigger, heavier and more powerful and dont handle 'naturally'... yet I could just go buy it and ride it without upgrading my skills?? hmm....

[george formby]

Ok so rather than spend time ripping other posters to shreds I went for a ride....

Hmm - I wonder... I rode the 1970 TR6C.. Its a peach of a bike, yes its underpowered and under braked by modern standards but it simply follows its nose and rides exactly like you would think a motorcycle should ride.. Its a delight - you dont need to think about it, you just ride it. Beautifully balanced, easy to ride and natural...

Now - the ST 1050... Praised as a paragon of a sports tourer and ours has had extensive suspension upgrades. The last time it was serviced the tech said it was the smoothest ST he had ever riden (down to the sus mods)... It handles well but its far from natural (to me) and you need to be onto it 100% of the time... Once you get the hang of it - you are away but its a skill you need to obtain because its not an obviously natural thing... Theres a lot of power (well I can dream) and a lot of mass to get turning in so you need to be very very deliberate...

My old Moto Guzzi LM2 was about the last generation of big wheel bikes and had more in common with the TR6C than the ST...

my point... Modern bikes need a lot more technical skills, are bigger, heavier and more powerful and dont handle 'naturally'... yet I could just go buy it and ride it without upgrading my skills?? hmm....

You make an exceedingly valid point. A few years ago I jumped onto a Fireblade and tried to stuff it, quite sedately, into one of my fav corners. Bastard would not turn, I near shit meself. I got around, obviously but what a wake up call.

[FJRider]

Simple - you are not paying for the use of your bicycle while riding on public roads.



And ... they demand sole (read free) and unhindered use of a marked portion of our streets and highways ... it might help if they obeyed a few of the road rules as well ... <_<

[old slider]

You talking motorbikes or push bikes?


I was talking Push bikes,, I think that many of the white haired goatee types riding Harleys have been doing so for a very long time.

[Murray]

The riding you describe here is what I see group riders do when under pressure to keep up.

You are actually making a total arse of yourself by consistently bringing this up. It is not actually the norm

Refer Thread

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/99556-Laxed-out-rides

Over about 6-7 years rode with over 100+ riders (anywhere on any given day from 6 - 30+) on most Sundays throughout the year - from memory the only accident we had was a result of a swing arm snapping (hyosung)

Also participated in toy runs, pink ribbon, blue prostrate & Westpac helicopter runs = sorry dickhead but not one death or accident

where do you get your information from - toilet rolls in the public loos?

[pritch]

They sound like Harley riders.

Nah, they sound like me, except that I avoid the road where I can and I would not be a pretty sight in lycra.

"A man's got to know his limitations." - Dirty Harry

[AllanB]

Ah. The Akaroa GP.


Great ride.

[AllanB]

Still sluts me off that they consider 'adequate' a appropriate description for brakes on a cruiser. Pop some Brembos on the front wheel. I don't think I'll be satisfied with anything less after experiencing them.

[Big Dog]

They have overtaken me in my car many times between ChCh and Akaroa when I have been in a line of traffic.


If you dont believe me you will see plenty of guys riding under pressure to keep up any weekend on the Christchurch to Akaroa road. I have seen them myself.
Until you ask them you are making an assumption.

Just because they pass you doesn't mean they are competing with anyone other than their own ego.

In my experience that is more dangerous than trying to keep up.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[skippa1]

Can't be arsed reading the whole thread but I am in the midst of a holiday in the South Is....one week left fuck it.....done 3400kms so far. Seen lots of stupid shit on the roads, particularly in central otago and up the west coast yesterday. my $0.02 worth

No amount of ACC payments will reduce motorcycle fatalities. Ranting about cyclists paying ACC wont make a scrap of difference if some Doris doea a u turn in front of you
There are so many hazards out there that you cannot control, you cannot guarantee you will return from a ride in one piece. Accept it and ride accordingly
Motorcyclists are vulnerable (trust me, I know)you should prepare yourself as well as you can for every ride.
while riding, never assume others intentions, treat other road users like they are stupid because by my observations over the last two weeks, they are in their separate bubble and only focused on themselves
Riding a bike is a lifestyle choice...a good one....but does come with some risk. Accept it.
Accidents do happen. They just do. They may have lots of different causes but at the end of the day, they still happen. There is no utopia, no time or place ever where you will be riding with no risk
There is too much sense of entitlement or arrogance on the road. People ride and drive like they believe everyone is going to obey the rules. Just because you may be right, doesnt decrease the seriousness of the outcome should there be an impact.
Cassina is completly fucked in the head

[pritch]

Can't be arsed reading the whole thread but I am in the midst of a holiday in the South Is....one week left fuck it.....done 3400kms so far. Seen lots of stupid shit on the roads, particularly in central otago and up the west coast yesterday. my $0.02 worth

No amount of ACC payments will reduce motorcycle fatalities. Ranting about cyclists paying ACC wont make a scrap of difference if some Doris doea a u turn in front of you
There are so many hazards out there that you cannot control, you cannot guarantee you will return from a ride in one piece. Accept it and ride accordingly
Motorcyclists are vulnerable (trust me, I know)you should prepare yourself as well as you can for every ride.
while riding, never assume others intentions, treat other road users like they are stupid because by my observations over the last two weeks, they are in their separate bubble and only focused on themselves
Riding a bike is a lifestyle choice...a good one....but does come with some risk. Accept it.
Accidents do happen. They just do. They may have lots of different causes but at the end of the day, they still happen. There is no utopia, no time or place ever where you will be riding with no risk
There is too much sense of entitlement or arrogance on the road. People ride and drive like they believe everyone is going to obey the rules. Just because you may be right, doesnt decrease the seriousness of the outcome should there be an impact.
Cassina is completly fucked in the head


Keenly observed.

[Big Dog]

For all those who said trucks can stop as quick as a car here is a message I found on FB from an actual truck driver.

"While people are enjoying the Xmas and New year's break, us truckies are still hard at it keeping the wheels turning. Without us your stores would be empty and supermarkets shelves would be bare. Please spare a thought for us before dangerously over taking or pulling out on us. Remember it takes us a hell of a lot of road to stop. Let's all get home safe and trouble free.
Granted I haven't driven a rig built this century, but just my observation...
Trucks take a lot of slowing.
But then they also have more wheels doing the braking.
If they are near capacity or carrying liquids stopping distances increase because physics.
If they are near empty they have less traction and ability to stop is reduced.
If they have a load somewhere in the middle, they take a little while to start stopping but once deceleration has begun they stop every bit as fast as a car.
Driven by a professional or with ABS possibly faster compared to Doris in her Yaris with little practice at stopping quickly.

This can be very deceptive when following a truck. The brake lights come on but speed doesn't appear to change much, lulling you into a false sense they are just tapping the brakes a little. What you can't see if you are to close is that they are desperately trying to avoid a collision. Then boom. The truck is suddenly slowing very fast, and unless you are already braking too it is likely they will stop shorter than you will.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[Big Dog]

No one will admit to riding under pressure to keep up as they will be admitting a weakness. Irrespective of the reason multivehicle overtakes are a dangerous practise and in a video of a public group ride one of the multi vehicle overtakers was almost taken out themselves by one of the cars they were overtaking deciding to overtake. With so many people on here stating statistics does anyone have the statistics for deaths on group rides?
I've been on hundreds.
3 or 4 crashes by other riders.
A number of licenses lost.
No fatalities.
No ambulances.
I've never felt pressured to keep up.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[onearmedbandit]

With so many people on here stating statistics does anyone have the statistics for deaths on group rides?

With that being your main issue to push I would've thought that you'd have that info.

[caspernz]

With that being your main issue to push I would've thought that you'd have that info.

The degree of hope and patience displayed is admirable.

I have a sneaky suspicion that the camembert in my fridge will be able to give a more cultured response though...

[Katman]

I don't give a shit how many people I piss off by saying it but.......

.....Cassina is absolutely right that pressure to keep up is a major contributor to crashes during group rides.

Anyone who tries to deny it is kidding themselves.

[Katman]

And before anyone starts telling me how many group rides they've been on where no-one has crashed, the answer to that is they were probably group rides conducted in a responsible manner.

It's the group rides where crashes do occur that are quite often the result of people trying to match the 'race pace'.

[onearmedbandit]

We are not lone voices on this site on this subject as I have read coments from other guys on here who have found group rides dangerous and have given up riding in groups. Pressure would also come from not wanting to be seen on a high powered sports bike and only riding at the speed limit. I have posted before that even if riders ride at the limit there was an accident where they target fixated on one another and when the lead rider came off so did some following riders.

No one is denying that it happens. The issue is your assumption that every crash on a group ride is the result of people being pressured to keep up.

[caspernz]

No one is denying that it happens. The issue is your assumption that every crash on a group ride is the result of people being pressured to keep up.

Have been on enough group rides to somewhat agree that an element of peer pressure creeps in, in some cases at least. Most of the incidents I've seen fall in the category of poor rider skill.

So now I mostly choose to ride with groups whose riding has been measured to the same standard as my own.

[george formby]

The problem is no one will ever admit to it even those who go on group rides on this site. Maybe they do it out of fear of getting lost but on the Akaroa road where I see it mostly that would be a bullshit reason.

I admit to not being pressured into keeping up on a group ride. If their are unfamiliar riders in the group I start last so I don't have to worry about muppetry in my rear. Regardless of what company may think or say my focus is getting home in one piece after a fun ride. Choose your companions wisely is my motto.

Same deal if I'm caught up by faster traffic, first chance I get I wave them on. Have a nice day.

[SVboy]

When any vehicle hits the brakes in front of me I take it as a signal to hit them too.

So, if the vehicle in front of you applies the brakes you run into them? This may explain the high number of crashes you have had!
Top tip- if the vehicle in front applies it's brakes , apply yours too, rather than using said vehicle to slow your momentum. If you are unsure where the brakes are on your bike please return to the shop you purchased it from and ask them to show you where they are and how they work.
KB, making riding safer since ages ago.

[pritch]

I don't give a shit how many people I piss off by saying it but.......

.....Cassina is absolutely right that pressure to keep up is a major contributor to crashes during group rides.

Anyone who tries to deny it is kidding themselves.

It can be a factor undoubtedly but a major contributor? I was once present at the scene of an accident that I would attribute to exactly that.
That's once in nearly sixty years. Which while it was a major prang could hardly be referred to as major in a statistical sense.
I still do group rides but tend to avoid the big ones where the idiots come out to play. And at no stage will I ride harder than I'm comfortable.

So nah, IMNSHO you're both wrong.

[Katman]

It can be a factor undoubtedly but a major contributor?

A significant percentage of group rides are still conducted in a manner that makes them indistinguishable from a road race.

So yes, trying to match the pace of others is a major contributor to crashes that occur on that type of group ride.

[old slider]

It can be a factor undoubtedly but a major contributor? I was once present at the scene of an accident that I would attribute to exactly that.
That's once in nearly sixty years. Which while it was a major prang could hardly be referred to as major in a statistical sense.
I still do group rides but tend to avoid the big ones where the idiots come out to play. And at no stage will I ride harder than I'm comfortable.

So nah, IMNSHO you're both wrong.


I am and was completely new to group riding, well apart from the small group 6-8 maniacs I raced around with in those helmet less years pre 1974 amongst a range of 250-500cc jappers. How we all survived is any ones guess, must have been luck.

But after hesitation from reading of the dangers of group rides I finally had my first proper group ride with the Wellington HOG chapter, very well organized and the right (knowledgeable) people seemed to be at each end of the large group, I was approached being the unknown rider, after a brief, we left, I actually felt safer on that ride than I did riding solo?

[Jeff Sichoe]

More people riding = more people are going to crash and of those some will die

it sucks but it's not like this is a new thing...

I noticed myself after chalking up a few thousand k's this Christmas that it was towards the end of a long day that mistakes are made.

Perhaps the ACC angle should not be 'spend hours at a course which teaches to the lowest common denominator' but free maccas vouchers so people can have a burger and a coke before they start making dumb overtaking decisions from fatigue.

[pritch]

I actually felt safer on that ride than I did riding solo?

But surely you felt pressured by the need to keep up? :devil2:




After thunk:

Actually it's not complicated.

First rule of group riding: turn up on time with a full tank and an empty bladder.
Second rule: ride your own speed.

Groups with a lead and a tail end charlie only need to bother about rule 1, but sadly too many riders can't even do that.

[Akzle]

For all those who said trucks can stop as quick as a car here is a message I found on FB from an actual truck driver.

"While people are enjoying the Xmas and New year's break, us truckies are still hard at it keeping the wheels turning. Without us your stores would be empty and supermarkets shelves would be bare. Please spare a thought for us before dangerously over taking or pulling out on us. Remember it takes us a hell of a lot of road to stop. Let's all get home safe and trouble free.

reading comprehension not your strong point eh?

i like the bit where facts and figures and //

o... wait on

[Akzle]

When any vehicle hits the brakes in front of me I take it as a signal to hit them too.

yeah, see. i keep enough distance and apropriate speed that coming off the gas, while they're braking, will only soak up enough spacetime, that i'm still in a good place by the time they're speeding up again.

brake pads last me fucken ages.

also, anyone "hitting" the brakes has probably already fucked up.

[ellipsis]

I don't give a shit how many people I piss off by saying it but.......

.....Cassina is absolutely right that pressure to keep up is a major contributor to crashes during group rides.

Anyone who tries to deny it is kidding themselves.


...one observation that rings of the truth does not excuse her from being totally out of her depth in relation to the other absolute crap and wrongs that she espouses on here...it is still a fucking idiot and full of self damaging beliefs and she is just another lucky fuckwit that is lucky to be alive...another infraction from Gremlin coming up probably, but it is a fuckwit and somehow makes me more angry than I should allow myself to get on an internet forum...


.

[Moise]

The simple fact is that when in a group, you are very likely to be riding at a different speed than you would choose. But is this a significant cause of accidents? I very much doubt it.

Most sportsbike riders tend to be in small groups if they're not solo. I see a few going fast, but most travel at sane speeds. If you regularly ride at 140 plus on upper North Island roads, something bad is likely to happen eventually, whether you're solo or in a group.



Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

[Akzle]

. If you regularly ride at 140 plus on upper North Island roads, something bad is likely to happen eventually, whether you're solo or in a group.


i seee you bought into that whole "speed is dangerous" propaganda.

i disagree.

[caseye]

A significant percentage of group rides are still conducted in a manner that makes them indistinguishable from a road race.

So yes, trying to match the pace of others is a major contributor to crashes that occur on that type of group ride.

Steve your message has always been right.
this cassina's is not right and it keeps changing.
Personally I know of a small number of riders who have come off during group rides I've attended, none of them died,"they didn't crash on fast stretches of road, they crashed in a car park and on one memorable ( for all the wrong reasons) they ended up with their nice shiny new BMW bike under an equally expensive motor car on the exit road from the Dorkland domain. After and I stress.
After, an AAG (Auckland Action Group) ACC Protest ride, that had attracted hundreds of bikes and which travelled many K's in and around Auckland without a hitch.
These were inexperienced riders, who were riding with a large group of other motorcyclists. They crashed because they panicked and grabbed brakes when they could have done things differently and come out the other side unscathed. Far as I know both are still riding and they've learn't from those mistakes, way back then.
If cassina had just once said, "some people succumb to the devil and twist before thinking when on a group ride". Then I'd agree.
If they said"some( we all know which ones aye) groups actively encourage big bikes and ballsy manouvres that involve higher risks, knowing that some of their newly attracted riders are inexperienced and not caring a single jot". I'd agree.
But No. They say all inexperienced riders who go on group rides are going to commit Hari kari because of the pressure to "keep up". FUCKING BULLSHIT."

This is 100% wrong".

I've been on group rides organised by some of NZ's most well known motorcycle clubs, where the ride leader has suggested that the lead elements(Read faster Riders) might like to take this much twistier and therefore more challenging stretch of road and should stop to pick up the rest of the ride here! after they've enjoyed a good old fashioned fang.Now I'm no prude and I don't always ride to the speed limit, but I used my own brain and decided for myself that I wasn't riding with the lead elements that or any other day. A personal choice, one which I make everytime I climb into a car or onto a bike.
On all of the group rides I've ever been assoiciated with. That means where I've been involved, either organising,directing, leading, acting as TEC, or simply as some ride leaders like to have happening, patrolling the lines and making sure everyone is comfortaqble and happy with their space.
My experience of group riding has been almost 100% positive, from the time I first started going on big (2-3000 bike Toy runs) in the days when they started at Western Springs, went down to Ramarama Hall and then back to the Town hall in the city.These rides were attended by every one of the then notorious gangs and they behaved as well as anyone else did, it was the cause ( the Kids) and the rides were always well signposted and or had control types ( be they Police, or scouting riders) controlling intersections and lane use while on the motorway.My wife and I have ridden amongst the BP The Mongy's, the FF the 61's of course the HA's and never once been pressured about our Jappa or how fast we were going, not on that day and not by them.
Same guys different day, a completely different story, One of those, "that type of ride observations"
Your new friend is a dangerous and unknown quantity, most of us here could have some sympathy but for their relentless bitching about group rides being the root of all evil.
Note, they've observed group rides from their MOTORCAR and seen riders being so intimidated by the need to "keep up"that they've crashed.
BS, is what I call it and by Hokey I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for most here when I say, go and get some professional training, actually go on some properly orgnised group rides and experience the welcoming and the cossetting of new riders, the talk after the ride always goes back to who saw what, did what and what could have been different.
Then go and learn how to see whats on the road ahead of you before you get there so you can stop hitting uncontrolled dogs and moving sheets of black ice.
Despite inviting this poster to do the things I've said just above, they've no intention of doing so, they believe that their riding is perfectly OK and they're not in need of advancing thier skills or abilities.
I ask you KM, is there a motorcyclist out there that wouldn't benefit from learning new things about themselves and their bike?

[FJRider]

More people riding = more people are going to crash and of those some will die



Not necessarily ... but that's the way to bet. But the number of deaths as a percentage of motorcyclists on the road was actually dropping.

[pritch]

Personally I know of a small number of riders who have come off during group rides I've attended, none of them died,"they didn't crash on fast stretches of road, they crashed in a car park and on one memorable ( for all the wrong reasons) they ended up with their nice shiny new BMW bike under an equally expensive motor car on the exit road from the Dorkland domain. After and I stress.
After, an AAG (Auckland Action Group) ACC Protest ride,

Sorry, gotta share the love, but that whole post's a winner... :2thumbsup:

[Scuba_Steve]

For all those who said trucks can stop as quick as a car here is a message I found on FB from an actual truck driver.

"While people are enjoying the Xmas and New year's break, us truckies are still hard at it keeping the wheels turning. Without us your stores would be empty and supermarkets shelves would be bare. Please spare a thought for us before dangerously over taking or pulling out on us. Remember it takes us a hell of a lot of road to stop. Let's all get home safe and trouble free.

If a truck (18wheeler) slams it's brakes they can stop surprisingly fast, faster than alot of cars & bikes
However it is extremely uncomfortable to do so; it is much more comfortable to go through the person in front than to lock the brakes

Also have a video, it's fully loaded at 40T no human intervention on wet road

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ridS396W2BY

[onearmedbandit]

If a truck (18wheeler) slams it's brakes they can stop surprisingly fast, faster than alot of cars & bikes
However it is extremely uncomfortable to do so; it is much more comfortable to go through the person in front than to lock the brakes

Also have a video, it's fully loaded at 40T no human intervention on wet road


Look it doesn't matter what proof or evidence you've magic'd up, cassina has read a post on facebook. Subject closed geddit??

[rastuscat]

i seee you bought into that whole "speed is dangerous" propaganda.

i disagree.

Stop being so sensible. Go back to the Ol'Azkill we have come to know and love.

[russd7]

Perhaps the ACC angle should not be 'spend hours at a course which teaches to the lowest common denominator' but free maccas vouchers so people can have a burger and a coke before they start making dumb overtaking decisions from fatigue.

the two ride forever courses i have done were matched to the attendies and given they were both gold courses they did teach higher level road craft, if you want to avoid being on a course with muppets (they don't tend to upskil anyway) then do what we did which was organise a course for our group of riding friends

[FJRider]

.....Cassina is absolutely right that pressure to keep up is a major contributor to crashes during group rides.

Anyone who tries to deny it is kidding themselves.

The underlying factor is in those cases is the reluctance of those riders to then simply ... left indicator on and back off on the throttle ... because of the underlying fear of looking like a noob if they do ...

[Murray]

If you dont believe me you will see plenty of guys riding under pressure to keep up any weekend on the Christchurch to Akaroa road. I have seen them myself.

I think you will find these "racers" are a bunch of mates riding together - not an organised group ride

Big difference

[caseye]

Stop being so sensible. Go back to the Ol'Azkill we have come to know and love.

Yeah! Wot he, um, ? he said. Te he he

[Akzle]

Stop being so sensible. Go back to the Ol'Azkill we have come to know and love.

what the fuck cunt



it was jews.

[Murray]

Yeah! Wot he, um, ? he said. Te he he

C'mon Mark - no thanks

Next thing will be if Cassina says something intelligent you will want him/her to go back to being what he/she was!!

[caseye]

C'mon Mark - no thanks

Next thing will be if Cassina says something intelligent you will want him/her to go back to being what he/she was!!

Sók never going to happen, she's not that smart.

[nzspokes]

I don't give a shit how many people I piss off by saying it but.......

.....Cassina is absolutely right that pressure to keep up is a major contributor to crashes during group rides.

Anyone who tries to deny it is kidding themselves.

Another one that cant keep up. :nya:

[Big Dog]

And before anyone starts telling me how many group rides they've been on where no-one has crashed, the answer to that is they were probably group rides conducted in a responsible manner.

It's the group rides where crashes do occur that are quite often the result of people trying to match the 'race pace'.
Exactly, responsible riders and group rides are not mutually exclusive.
Simply stating group rides kill is gross generalisation.

Any pressure to keep up is a function of ego rather than the group.

There have also been group rides I chose not to start our not to finish because of the participants.
Final responsibility rests with the rider keeping their own ego in check.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[FJRider]

The post was from a truck driver and not a motorcyclist. But if you prefer to value the opinions of motorcyclists as knowing more about trucks than truck drivers well thats your silly fault in my opinion.

If a truck driver decides he/she really needs to stop in a hurry ... the least of his/her worries will be a motorcyclist tailgating the truck. Just look at the truck crashes in the Lewis Pass area over the last few months ...

Tailgate trucks at your peril ...

[Murray]

Pressure to keep up would still exist between mates.

You dickhead thats exactly what I was getting at.

[Scuba_Steve]

The post was from a truck driver and not a motorcyclist. But if you prefer to value the opinions of motorcyclists as knowing more about trucks than truck drivers well thats your silly fault in my opinion.

You're maybee not aware of this, but there's a few of us on here that operate vehicles other than bikes; vehicles such as Trucks... That's right! some of us on here fall under the "truck drivers" catagory too

[FJRider]

You're maybee not aware of this, but there's a few of us on here that operate vehicles other than bikes; vehicles such as Trucks... That's right! some of us on here fall under the "truck drivers" catagory too

Some on here should just fall under a truck ... <_<

[Moise]

i seee you bought into that whole "speed is dangerous" propaganda.

i disagree.
Not at all. But doing over 140 km/h on many NZ roads is not likely to end well because of traffic, police or road conditions.



Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

If 6 people go out on a group ride, it's 6 people riding individually together.

I did one such ride today. It was called a Ride Forever Silver course.

Everyone maintained their 2 second spacing, as I set the rules, and the rules got obeyed.

Pay respect forward by leaving the rider ahead of you space to choose whatever line he wants.

[FJRider]

Not at all. But doing over 140 km/h on many NZ roads is not likely to end well because of traffic, police or road conditions.





Perhaps ... you're riding the wrong roads ... The roads north of Dorkland are not the best in the country ...

[caspernz]

Not at all. But doing over 140 km/h on many NZ roads is not likely to end well because of traffic, police or road conditions.



Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

Well I'd largely agree with that. Strictly speaking, legalities aside here, there's a few roads where 140 is not a problem at all. The downside being too many would fail the riding to the conditions test...

Too many drivers/riders with Weetbix licences makes 140 a bad idea of course :eek:

[T.W.R]

The post was from a truck driver and not a motorcyclist. But if you prefer to value the opinions of motorcyclists as knowing more about trucks than truck drivers well thats your silly fault in my opinion.


That would assume i was tailgating the truck. Also trucks do not stop as sudden as cars which would give me more time to brake.

One explains the other

[Moise]

Perhaps ... you're riding the wrong roads ... The roads north of Dorkland are not the best in the country ...
I could disagree, but it's fine with me if that's what people think. And most of them can be enjoyed at more "moderate" speeds. Plus you don't see many campervans, police cars or tourists on the wrong side of the road.



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[Paul in NZ]

Sigh....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/88188333/call-to-ditch-motorcyclists-acc-levy-as-figures-show-little-has-been-spent-on-safety

[Berries]

The levy price would be reviewed next year, and bikers would be consulted on that.
Chortle chortle chortle.

[SVboy]

Thats maybe why I get rubbished when I mention the words Pressure to Keep Up as no rider is going to ever say that to anyone that they were put/felt under pressure. Even on here no one will admit it if they have been as they will get rubbished on here as I have been.

Right, here goes! I doubt anyone would doubt that some people feel and respond to the pressure to keep up with faster riders on occasion. This can result in them getting into dangerous situations and possibly crashing. There is no reason to bang on about it as if it is the main reason behind crashing. When I returned to riding I felt that pressure and struggled to understand how others could ride so quickly, smoothly and safely. It took me many years of practice, training, reading and racing to get my riding to what I consider a reasonable standard and to think through any pressure I might feel in a riding situation.
I ride with a group of mates on the Akaroa GP. We have ridden together for many years. We all have different paces. Some ride fast, some not. There is certainly no pressure to keep up.
So now I have admitted on KB that I have felt pressure to keep up and that it can lead to accidents perhaps you could move on?

[Akzle]

perhaps you could move on?

permanently. iykwim.

[old slider]

So your solution for anyone feeling pressure to keep up is to do some race training but the only problem with your theory is the roads are not designed to be a race track. I question that you would be any safer on the road than the rider under pressure to keep up as your speeds would be the same unless of course when you returned to riding you were too nervous to even reach the speed limit.



Lol, have to admire your tenacity.

I am a returning rider, luckily I have received some great info, a lot of it off this site, but, and a big but, all the information, all the up skilling and all of the learning is useless to me if I behave/ride like I am 7 foot tall and bullet proof.

I am enjoying my return to riding, I am taking it slowly, in more ways than one, Note: that dosent mean I always travel on good roads or in good conditions at less than highway speeds.

[SVboy]

So your solution for anyone feeling pressure to keep up is to do some race training but the only problem with your theory is the roads are not designed to be a race track. I question that you would be any safer on the road than the rider under pressure to keep up as your speeds would be the same unless of course when you returned to riding you were too nervous to even reach the speed limit.

I see reading is also an issue for you. My post stated I practiced riding on The road, off the road also,I paid for training on the road, I read a lot AND I went to the track, all with the express aim of improving my riding. Your selective quoting is only making you look more ignorant, if that is possible.
How can you question my safety on the roads, you don't know me, have never ridden with me and that is a state of affairs I do wish to continue.

[onearmedbandit]

So your solution for anyone feeling pressure to keep up is to do some race training but the only problem with your theory is the roads are not designed to be a race track. I question that you would be any safer on the road than the rider under pressure to keep up as your speeds would be the same unless of course when you returned to riding you were too nervous to even reach the speed limit.

Reading comprehension fail.

[old slider]

Its interesting that the media link the other poster put on said rider training is useless. While I have said why it would not help me avoid the accidents caused by others I have been in, the media story gives no reason at all despite many on here saying it has been of benefit to them.

We can take from media what we want to see.

No helmet laws for example, most statistics show wearing a helmet reduces head injuries, but wearing a helmet does not reduce the death rates, the rider would have died anyways, others say Helmets may reduce head injuries but they cause neck injuries and the rider would have died anyways.

Research apparently shows riders wearing helmets would have died regardless of whether they were wearing a helmet or not.

[FJRider]

So now I have admitted on KB that I have felt pressure to keep up and that it can lead to accidents perhaps you could move on?

But ... were you riding an adventure bike ... and be able to cope with dangerous road conditions better ... (apparently) ... :shifty:

[Hads]

I have crunched the numbers for 2015, hopefully people will find this helpful.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B61C3f1BZUwrU5cvRQzp_DPv2feUyt-0Kz4ykDBbjyA/edit?usp=sharing

[KawasakiKid]

I have crunched the numbers for 2015, hopefully people will find this helpful.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B61C3f1BZUwrU5cvRQzp_DPv2feUyt-0Kz4ykDBbjyA/edit?usp=sharing

Nah, not really.

I hope you were doing this data for a job. If you did it for fun, you have too much time on your hands.....go ride instead, maybe you learn more.

But well done all the same

[Hads]

Didn't take too long, an hour tops, I put this up there as people tend to assume based off no information, where the fact might be different. For example did you know motorcyclists are at fault in most right turn in front of traffic accidents?

[Moi]

Didn't take too long, an hour tops, I put this up there as people tend to assume based off no information, where the fact might be different. For example did you know motorcyclists are at fault in most right turn in front of traffic accidents?

Interesting spread sheet...

Your 'for example' is the type of research that the MSAC should be actively encouraging ACC to do with the levy funds - what can we learn from that information?

[Ocean1]

- what can we learn from that information?

That there was only 4 motorcycle deaths for >60 yr old riders.

I'm good! :niceone:

[old slider]

That there was only 4 motorcycle deaths for >60 yr old riders.

I'm good! :niceone:


yep, me to, I feel safer already and I wont be afraid to go for a ride now. :niceone:

[Hads]

What is scary is the number of injuries and deaths in the 20 - 24 age group regardless of vehicle type.

[onearmedbandit]

What is scary is the number of injuries and deaths in the 20 - 24 age group regardless of vehicle type.

That's the invincible period of life where the realisation of 'consequences' are almost starting to sink in. Almost. That's why 18-25yr olds willing sign up to go to war.

[FJRider]

That's the invincible period of life where the realisation of 'consequences' are almost starting to sink in. Almost. That's why 18-25yr olds willing sign up to go to war.

The It won't/can't happen to me syndrome can linger in older age groups too .....

[onearmedbandit]

The It won't/can't happen to me syndrome can linger in older age groups too .....

Yup true, their brain hasn't progressed to that stage yet if it ever will...

[KawasakiKid]

Didn't take too long, an hour tops, I put this up there as people tend to assume based off no information, where the fact might be different. For example did you know motorcyclists are at fault in most right turn in front of traffic accidents?

All good. I actually enjoy statistics etc my earlier reply was a bit of piss taking.

However, I think there is a straightforward way to decrease deaths and other accidents. More advanced and compulsory training and harder licence tests. I would also help if all drivers/riders had to pass both car and bike tests before being allowed unsupervised on the road.

I do not believe that tougher policing is the answer, though others may disagree. Though tougher scrutineering of cars and bikes may be an advantage.

[KawasakiKid]

Yup true, their brain hasn't progressed to that stage yet if it ever will...

:)................

[Akzle]

I actually feel safer on my bike making such a turn compared to my 2L car due to the much superior low down torque. Not all bikes are known for good low down torque though and could come to grief due to that in that particular situation.

and you would be turning right infront of a vehicle... why?

[pritch]

That's the invincible period of life where the realisation of 'consequences' are almost starting to sink in. Almost. That's why 18-25yr olds willing sign up to go to war.

The perils of an undeveloped cerebral cortex, by 25 they should be coming right.

[Berries]

If you need more torque to do it safely then you made the wrong decision.

[nzspokes]

I actually feel safer on my bike making such a turn compared to my 2L car due to the much superior low down torque. Not all bikes are known for good low down torque though and could come to grief due to that in that particular situation.

And here the lack of training shows.

[Akzle]

And here the lack of training shows.

so many thinks are lacking. training was third or fourth down my list.

[Akzle]

To go down a different street muppet

you dont fucken say.
Most of us wait until there isn't another vehicle intending to occupy the same spacetime as our own. but hey. crash tally.

[T.W.R]

And here the lack of training shows.


so many thinks are lacking. training was third or fourth down my list.

More along the lines that prove some humans shouldn't be allowed to breed & be sterilised at birth.
But hey give it some time it'll shift the posts on its arguement then contradict itself

[Hads]

More along the lines that prove some humans shouldn't be allowed to breed & be sterilised at birth.
But hey give it some time it'll shift the posts on its arguement then contradict itself

They've tried it, didn't work out so well for the Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

[Akzle]

. In the wet you have to be careful though but I have never come to grief due to it.

so, please remind the class, why you did come to grief.



aginandagainandagainandagain.

[nzspokes]

Having low down torque is a good thing in heavy traffic. Why not demo a bike with low down torque if you dont believe me. Its also good for overtaking. In the wet you have to be careful though but I have never come to grief due to it.
My main bike has 93ftlb at 3k rpm. Still won't pull out in front of a car for giggles.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Moi]

and you would be turning right infront of a vehicle... why?


The perils of an undeveloped cerebral cortex, by 25 they should be coming right.

10 out of 10 for the best answer, so far...

[Moi]

you dont fucken say.
Most of us wait until there isn't another vehicle intending to occupy the same spacetime as our own. but hey. crash tally.

Although drivers of certain European cars believe they have a divine right to "do as they wish"...

[Berries]

Don't worry everyone, the good old AA are coming to our rescue AA say all motorcyclists are speeding bastards. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/88287604/aa-calls-for-speed-camera-changes-to-stop-motorcyclists-having-free-ride)

No word on how many photos were actually taken front on of speeding motorcyclists but hey, they can get that from the Dog and Lemon guy.

[T.W.R]

Don't worry everyone, the good old AA are coming to our rescue AA say all motorcyclists are speeding bastards. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/88287604/aa-calls-for-speed-camera-changes-to-stop-motorcyclists-having-free-ride)

No word on how many photos were actually taken front on of speeding motorcyclists but hey, they can get that from the Dog and Lemon guy.


The camera van operator who works around the region here has a dirty big SLR with a lense on it about 400mm long for just those special shots the fixed camera doesn't get

[Paul in NZ]

The AA has never liked motorcycles despite the majority of riders also having cars and in some cases - used to be AA members.

I was a member for decades - then the AA moved from being an organisation that advocated for its members and road users in general to being an insurance company... I also had some professional dealings with them. Worse people I ever dealt with period....

I'm no longer a member and refuse to touch any product or service that goes near them. I'd encourage you to do the same.

[scumdog]

Don't worry everyone, the good old AA are coming to our rescue AA say all motorcyclists are speeding bastards. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/88287604/aa-calls-for-speed-camera-changes-to-stop-motorcyclists-having-free-ride)

No word on how many photos were actually taken front on of speeding motorcyclists but hey, they can get that from the Dog and Lemon guy.


Saw that!:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::face palm:

[Ulsterkiwi]

I emailed the guy who made the comments in the AA, seems his go to topic for the media is petrol prices, I wonder how that qualifies him to comment on motorcycles, or speeding.
I also copied their magazine editor and comms director into the email.
It was a rant and I do not expect much from it, I do wonder if they will even acknowledge a complaint from a member (me). If they don't I will follow up by contacting the CEO or whatever he is called directly. I am more interested in how they respond to member issues than anything else. The guy who made the comments is just a knob.

[AllanB]

Dumb shit.

Anyone can get away with speeding - until you are caught.



Hmmmm - maybe, just maybe there is a solution here to cover the multi taxing of ACC fees if you own multiple bikes, the speed camera issue and motorcycle safety.

I'm almost scared to suggest it......... it's kind of logical, even doable.......... Nooooooo

Just legislate to ensure all helmets must be fluro yellow with a rego number on the front and rear .....

[FJRider]

Dumb shit.

Anyone can get away with speeding - until you are caught.





Front rego plates will be the bizz ... they'll grow on you ... and any pedestrian you run down wont notice the front plate. What (extra) harm could it do .. ??

[AllanB]

Front rego plates will be the bizz ... they'll grow on you ... and any pedestrian you run down wont notice the front plate. What (extra) harm could it do .. ??


Ha - it would imprint into their skin in reverse it you hit them hard enough.

I keep looking at my Ducati - no way a friggin front plate is going on it.

Unless the following are available as personalised plates:

FUCKU

FKYOU

etc - you get the idea.

[FJRider]

Ha - it would imprint into their skin in reverse it you hit them hard enough.

I keep looking at my Ducati - no way a friggin front plate is going on it.

Unless the following are available as personalised plates:

FUCKU

FKYOU

etc - you get the idea.

I want ... AHAMAY .. :innocent:


At least the pedestrian will know the make of motorcycle that hit 'em ...

[Berries]

I keep looking at my Ducati - no way a friggin front plate is going on it.
It will be a simple barcode or some such that digital cameras can read from 100m at 140km/h. It will be introduced for tax avoidance reasons because rego will keep going up and more people will stop paying and we all know this AA speed camera thing is a crock.

Failure to display the barcode will result in seizure of the bike. Job jobbed.

Talking of number plates, saw YACANT last week. Not sure how that one slipped through. Normally I think that when I see a personal plate but this one made me chuckle.

[AllanB]

I have wondered why the existing rego cards have a barcode.

[awayatc]

I have wondered why the existing rego cards have a barcode.

Last time I got pulled over cop swiped rego sticker and licence....
Gave him all the info he needed.
Saved us both changing unpleasantries.....

[rastuscat]

Talking of number plates, saw YACANT last week. Not sure how that one slipped through. Normally I think that when I see a personal plate but this one made me chuckle.

Somewhat off topic, but there was a BMW Series 3 in Christchurch a couple of years back with the plate ELIXIR.

Every time I saw it I though to myself "I bet 'e does"

[russd7]

Somewhat off topic, but there was a BMW Series 3 in Christchurch a couple of years back with the plate ELIXIR.

Every time I saw it I though to myself "I bet 'e does"

thats a bit like the woman who nicknamed her hubby "drambuie", its one o those fancy lickers

[george formby]

thats a bit like the woman who nicknamed her hubby "drambuie", its one o those fancy lickers

I can lick my eyebrows, the G/F generally gets out of the shower shouting dinners ready! I have schnitzel, she has sausage.

[Murray]

thats a bit like the woman who nicknamed her hubby "drambuie", its one o those fancy lickers

Like the pub that had the sign Liquor in the front - poker in the rear

[pritch]

Talking of number plates, saw YACANT last week. Not sure how that one slipped through.

From memory there was a local KBer had "cahn". Which was quoting Fred Gassit I believe.

[granstar]

fredgassit.tripod.com/


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/bf/fb/d7/bffbd7ba21b91605c1e4aface2a99187.jpg

[Ulsterkiwi]

How long before rego stickers are gone? They got rid of the tax disk in the U.K. Don't renew, expect a fine in the post. Anyone who is interested types your number into some device that confirms car is all legal which for them is tax, MOT and insurance. Then again the uk police forces are by and large more concerned with HOW you drive, not the speed you drive at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gremlin]

Then again the uk police forces are by and large more concerned with HOW you drive, not the speed you drive at.
Then again, you might get stopped in unusual ways... :laugh:

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/NVubZ0Oegy4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[awayatc]

Then again, you might get stopped in unusual ways... :laugh:




He wasn't writing a ticket

That would never catch on here.....

[T.W.R]

How long before rego stickers are gone? They got rid of the tax disk in the U.K. Don't renew, expect a fine in the post. Anyone who is interested types your number into some device that confirms car is all legal which for them is tax, MOT and insurance. Then again the uk police forces are by and large more concerned with HOW you drive, not the speed you drive at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rego stickers have been gone for years.....different colour for a different year, it was easy to spot.
Haven't the big brother cameras on certain thoroughfares into london already have number recognition for vehicles? Any thing picked up on the data is relayed through to plod for them to go scouting for said vehicle.

[ellipsis]

All their technology means five eighths of fuck all if some revenue collecting agency doesn't tap the keys and put in the information. I got stopped on our highway for a motorcycle only check about six weeks ago. Warranted and Rego brand new a week or so earlier. The uniformed tax man fiddling with his electronic notebook asked me to get off my bike and accompany him to one of the five cars they had to pull up a few bikes as my bike was not registered, Fuck off, I said, the bike is registered and licenced, and made him check my sticker...Oh sorry, he said, it doesn't register on my 'gizmo', have a good day...cahntz

[FJRider]

Rego stickers have been gone for years.....different colour for a different year, it was easy to spot.
Haven't the big brother cameras on certain thoroughfares into london already have number recognition for vehicles? Any thing picked up on the data is relayed through to plod for them to go scouting for said vehicle.

ANPR cameras are in NZ ... some on patrol cars in each region .... and some I think at fixed speed camera sites. The bill is in the mail ....

[Moi]

Then again, you might get stopped in unusual ways... :laugh:

Looking at his other videos I suspect the Constable's words fell on deaf ears...

[granstar]

ANPR cameras are in NZ ... some on patrol cars in each region .... and some I think at fixed speed camera sites. The bill is in the mail ....

Dat be True :whistle:

[Akzle]

rego =/= cvl.
if your phat sweet ride isnt CVL current=fines and shit.

if it isnt REGISTERED, no fucking problem.