NOT GOOD, Worst deaths in 19 years

[Paul in NZ]

Oh dear this isnt great news is it...

To be fair the head coppers trying to look at both sides but the numbers are not GOOD

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/87966445/motorcycle-deaths-on-new-zealand-roads-highest-in-almost-20-years

[caspernz]

Sobering stats, and no doubt some of us will get the "bikes are dangerous" lecture as a result...:shit:

Not that we'll get a breakdown of the numbers of course, but would be interesting to see how many of the fatalities were new or returning riders, occasional riders, or those who'd chosen not to partake in any form of ongoing training?

[biggo]

These stats are from 2015 funny how it takes a year to get them out to the public or is it just sensationalizing journalism again :brick:

[tri boy]

" kittykat to the call phone...............

[PrincessBandit]

I thought it was as a pretty good article, and did present a fair assessment from both riders' and non-riders' perspective. Particularly nice was seeing confirmation in print that we are not second class citizens on the road (although it doesn't automatically mean that it will sink in to all other road users).

[AllanB]

Watching the mad cunts in cars passing on BLIND corners yesterday ........ Oh and again today ......

Me on the bike pulling wayyyyy back expecting a fall-out of metal and glass.


Either way - keep alert and if you are thinking 'yeah - maybe' DON'T.

[Tazz]

Sobering stats, and no doubt some of us will get the "bikes are dangerous" lecture as a result...:shit:

Not that we'll get a breakdown of the numbers of course, but would be interesting to see how many of the fatalities were new or returning riders, occasional riders, or those who'd chosen not to partake in any form of ongoing training?

I posted but deleted it again because I've whinged about shit journalism enough for the year, but where are the numbers of total riders to make sense of the number of crashes anyway?
Are there a fuckload more on the road? Are there less? Are more and more being caused by cars or are 'solo' bike accidents on the rise? Why is the office wondering anything when his employer and himself have access to all the crash data they need to see exactly where and who is crashing into what. Plus add to the list among others the points you raised above. Again, they have all this data so why is he wondering!

Last question, why write an article if you are not going to cover the topic fucking properly?

/rant

Either way, the numbers won't cross my mind when I throw a leg over this summer. Shit happens.

[old slider]

I find it interesting. would love to see the comparison stats back to the early 1970s when there seemed to be many more bikes on our roads, both of the pedalled and engine variety and remembering to the no compulsory Helmet rules until 1974.

[Katman]

One problem with those statistics though is they never say what percentage of the crashes was the riders own fault....

I think you would be disappointed.

[old slider]

Maybe they need to make motorcycle licensing continuous and if you stop riding your license is cancelled and you have to resit again. If you want to go back to riding be made to start off on a low cc bike rather than being able to start out on a bike as big as 650cc. One problem with those statistics though is they never say what percentage of the crashes was the riders own fault and for a percentage of crashes all the riding schooling in the world will not save them if the fault is due to another party.

I don't agree, A lot of drivers, even those who do it full time for a living can make mistakes. I think I ride with much more caution and awareness today than I did 45 years ago when riding was my only means of transport.

[gonzo_akl]

I think the report that they are using can be found here.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-2016.pdf

Edit: 55% motorcycles have primarily responsibility.

When it involves multiple vehicles that drops to 35%.

[James Deuce]

Bullshit quotes from the cop, as usual. Vastly safer to carefully lanesplit in heavy traffic than sit between two people who are both technically tailgating. Getting caught between two large side by side trucks indicates a poor choice by the rider. Not ALL riders. Just that one, that one time. Fuck off with the generalisations.

In terms of owning more of the responsibility for motorcycle accidents. Fuck off. Sick of listening to bullshit from people who don't know the lengths most motorcyclists go to to keep themselves safe and review their own skills and work on them.

There are a FUCK LOAD more people riding. The bike park at work has gone from under subscribed to bikes parking in every opportunistic space available. I GUARANTEE that the accident RATE is a fraction of what it was in 1989. We talk about our issues informally and offer advice and how to find quality training. I don't give anyone advice on how to ride, I tell them to ring ANdrew Templeton for that, but we do sharpen each other's attitudes up. Don;t get angry with people who made a mistake, don't put yourself where people can't see, etc, etc. You can get a copy of Roadcraft here, Andrew Templeton's number is (insert here).

In 30 years of riding, I've not hit anything. I've been hit by all manner of fuckwits up to and including a suicide sheep. Drunks, trucks, school mums, and all in ways that I had no fucking chance. You can argue that I could have had more sleep, used ESP to see around a corner, grown eyes in the back or top of my fucking head all you want. We're not robots. EVERYONE needs to sharpen up. EVERYONE.

[Tazz]

I think the report that they are using can be found here.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-2016.pdf

Edit: 55% motorcycles have primarily responsibility.

When it involves multiple vehicles that drops to 35%.

Why is there not one for cars I wonder? I wanted to compare but only motorbikes, cyclists and trucks are singled out.

Edit: It's not consistent either. Pie graphs for at fault for some, line graphs for others, different titles. Are they hiring journalists part time for this shit?

Edit 2: FFS it gets worse. A rainbow of colours to choose from and they go for 2 shades of grey and 2 shades of blue on the same line graph. I am getting old and cranky or are people just getting really shit at doing simple jobs.
Anyway, motorcycle fleet has increased 100% since 2000 (and the bus fleet), however, being the inefficient dickheads they are there is no mention of what the number was in 2000 in the same area (in a way that you can actually see a number and not some useless stacked histogram).

I'm too lazy to look anymore when I could be having a beer instead. Ride safe mofos!

[WristTwister]

Oh dear this isnt great news is it...

To be fair the head coppers trying to look at both sides but the numbers are not GOOD

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/87966445/motorcycle-deaths-on-new-zealand-roads-highest-in-almost-20-years

Scooter riders count towards motorcycle injuries. Aside from a half-shell helmet most of them don't wear any protection. I don't think many go out of town so they are probably not contributing to the death toll.

[Paul in NZ]

I think we are all missing the point....

A policeman has said things, bad things... hes a policeman, its in the press - its true....

So - wheres the motorcycle spokesman.... oh - thats right we all hate each other... OK as you were

[Owl]

Nek Minnit :shit:

327376327375

[Scuba_Steve]

Course if nothing else this'll mean bikes are bout to get harassed more... yay <_<

[WristTwister]

Let me just say this article is a load of shit. As per usual journalists have no fucken clue how statistics work.

The first stat that matters is how many deaths per rider.
This tells us whether or not there are more accidents because there are more riders - a number that any idiot who did statistics at school would want to know.

Experience or Training
Break the numbers down by experience and training levels and you find out if any increase is due to a lack of experience or training. Whether the old riders like it or not, training+experience trumps experience alone every-time.

Location or Conditions
I'm sure you all get the point right?

Filter out the scooter riders from the motorcycle riders
Yes they count scooters as motorcycles, even though you've done rider training, wear leather and a full-face helmet you are placed in the same category as an 20 year old in t-shirt and shorts when it comes to 2 wheel injuries.I've heard scooter riders are the least likely to do Ride Forever training too.

Teach drivers to look for motorbikes!!!
What's the ratio of fault? Do we have more drivers hitting bikes ?

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15541621_849637558511295_3295168447009376461_n.png ?oh=3952f3fa03f1ff336dbe4e8af8cde7ab&oe=58E926D4

[Grashopper]

I think the report that they are using can be found here.

http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-2016.pdf




Some more stats are in the section 4 excel file here: http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/roadcrashstatistics/motorvehiclecrashesinnewzealand/motor-vehicle-crashes-in-new-zealand-2015/

Interestingly, these numbers were not included in the published pdf, which somehow only shows simple stats with limited usefulness.

The number of motorcyclist fatalities per 10,000 registered on-road motorcycles decreased until the year 2000.

Since then, fatality rates per 10,000 registered on-road motorcycles have been pretty constant at 5 +/- 1
(for comparison, the average fatality rate between 1951 and 1960 was 18). The numbers for 2016 were not yet included in the file, though.

Anyway, 5 are still way to much.

[swbarnett]

from media reports the bulk of single rider crashes are from the mid life crisis age group.
And we all know how accurate media "facts" are, don't we?

[swbarnett]

The first stat that matters is how many deaths per rider.
This tells us whether or not there are more accidents because there are more riders - a number that any idiot who did statistics at school would want to know.
While this would certainly be useful a better statistic to analyse is the number of accidents/deaths per distance travelled. Even if the number of riders stayed the same the relative statistical risk is lowered if the number of accidents/deaths stays the same but the distance travelled has risen.

[swbarnett]

5 are still way to much.
Life = risk. If you live, you will die. Some will always die on the road. This is a natural fact and one that we should never attempt to eliminate, for to remove risk you must first remove life.

[Motu]

Scooter riders count towards motorcycle injuries. Aside from a half-shell helmet most of them don't wear any protection..

I ride a scooter to work everyday, and have the helmet to prove it. I'll probably be down to T shirt and shorts later this summer. I don't see that a scooter is any more dangerous than a real mans motorcycle. 45 years, heaps of prangs, ALL my fault...any more and I'll still put it down to my own stupidity.

[swbarnett]

I don't see that a scooter is any more dangerous than a real mans motorcycle.
All the more reason the separate them in the accident stats. Might shut some people up one way or another.

[R650R]

Bullshit quotes from the cop, as usual. Vastly safer to carefully lanesplit in heavy traffic than sit between two people who are both technically tailgating. Getting caught between two large side by side trucks indicates a poor choice by the rider. Not ALL riders. Just that one, that one time. Fuck off with the generalisations.

In terms of owning more of the responsibility for motorcycle accidents. Fuck off. Sick of listening to bullshit from people who don't know the lengths most motorcyclists go to to keep themselves safe and review their own skills and work on them.



Amen! Sounds like hes trying to conjure excuse for more funding so they can have a special easy day of work eating donuts and chatting to bikers. Be lot easier than going to domestics and pulling over real crims or solo mothers with car loads of screaming kids whining about why they havent paid there wof rego etc.....

Its a wonder police dont have a proper pr policy like big business and let someone do commenting who is done research, not some porr tired cop giving a media soundbite xmas rant.

Mind you its not like they dont give other road users groups the same sweeping genralisations too...

[R650R]

Let me just say no fucken clue how statistics work.

The first stat that matters is how many deaths per rider.
a number that any idiot who did statistics at school would want to know.



I'm pretty sure you can only die once, no stats needed for that ;p :) sorry couldn't resist that, hear where your coming from though.

[R650R]

While this would certainly be useful a better statistic to analyse is the number of accidents/deaths per distance travelled. Even if the number of riders stayed the same the relative statistical risk is lowered if the number of accidents/deaths stays the same but the distance travelled has risen.

We love this stat in transport industry, especially quoted in millions of km travelled. However it only takes a few bad eggs and also unfortunate circumstance for stats to take an unfavourable turn. And its a bad stat to rely on as soon congestion will grow to the point where less km per vehicle will be travelled, but people will still do dumb stuff and crash/die as often as before.

My theory is fatigue is massively under represented. What happens in a crash is one or more person makes a bad decision, that is then amplified by other factors -speed, alcohol, poor road condtions, road side infrastructure. So as long as this core factor remains due to long work hours, long commuting distances and kwiiws love of travel on weekends for sports and adventure, little will change.

[R650R]

, or those who'd chosen not to partake in any form of ongoing training?

Given the worship and fawning here on this forum about training its seems to be widespread, its hard to gauge if its had any significant influence on crash rates at all. A day or twos training does not change a users inherent traits and habits overnight, its no magic solution.
See as 50 odd deaths is a realtively low number data wise, id like to see a more indepth breakdown of what actually contributed in each case. And if any of the riders had had 'training'....
Eg how often is a bike just in the wrong place at wrong time and would have potentially died in a car anyway. Just like how theres a 'truck accident' when a car crosses centreline and hits a truck, that truck could have been a car unable to swerve in tiem and the results would be similar.

[nzspokes]

Given the worship and fawning here on this forum about training its seems to be widespread, its hard to gauge if its had any significant influence on crash rates at all. A day or twos training does not change a users inherent traits and habits overnight, its no magic solution.
See as 50 odd deaths is a realtively low number data wise, id like to see a more indepth breakdown of what actually contributed in each case. And if any of the riders had had 'training'....
Eg how often is a bike just in the wrong place at wrong time and would have potentially died in a car anyway. Just like how theres a 'truck accident' when a car crosses centreline and hits a truck, that truck could have been a car unable to swerve in tiem and the results would be similar.
Given that proper training takes more than a weekend, I would agree. My current advanced one I think will take a year to get through.

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[Scubbo]

after all the training you're still inherently at the bane of other motorists (drill it right back and you'll see what I mean) still it's good to take responsibility for your end, risk makes life worthwhile

[nzspokes]

If you have been told by a ridng school it will take them a year to train you I think they are conning you out of your money. They are also conning you if they have got you believing at the end of that year you will never be in an accident as a result of their training.
Its free. Retard.

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[george formby]

you will never be in an accident as a result of their training.


You're unique in trumpeting that perception.

[AllanB]

Next it will be compulsory hi-viz.

Or ban black helmets.


Maybe a MINIMUM 100db motorcycle exhaust policy :woohoo:

[caspernz]

Given the worship and fawning here on this forum about training its seems to be widespread, its hard to gauge if its had any significant influence on crash rates at all. A day or twos training does not change a users inherent traits and habits overnight, its no magic solution.
See as 50 odd deaths is a realtively low number data wise, id like to see a more indepth breakdown of what actually contributed in each case. And if any of the riders had had 'training'....
Eg how often is a bike just in the wrong place at wrong time and would have potentially died in a car anyway. Just like how theres a 'truck accident' when a car crosses centreline and hits a truck, that truck could have been a car unable to swerve in tiem and the results would be similar.

There's no worship in training from me, the focus being self preservation. Silly thing is that I've seen training pay dividends in the transport industry, even if I may have been reluctant at first to go along with some of the approaches to stuff I reckoned I already knew.

Just as there's a difference between a rider who has ridden his whole life, versus one who may have had the licence since age 15 but only had 2 years riding in that time. Which one do we expect to do better in an emergency situation? Apply a bit of ongoing training and the odds improve again, that's how I view training of any kind after obtaining the licence...improving the odds of avoiding a mishap, regardless of who is to blame. And let's be fair, starting with situational awareness, how many riders shrink their own margin for safety to the point where hospital food is inevitable at the slightest error on anyone's part?

[WristTwister]

Next it will be compulsory hi-viz.

Or ban black helmets.


Maybe a MINIMUM 100db motorcycle exhaust policy :woohoo:

pfft it's PC madness! :P

[Katman]

A couple of points.....

1. The belief that public roads double as racetracks is still extremely common among New Zealand motorcyclists and until we change that attitude we will continue to see unflattering statistics.

2. There is an appalling number of motorcyclists out there who seem incapable of concentrating on what they're doing to the level required to minimise the associated risks of motorcycling. I once had someone on here say to me "but you can't be expected to concentrate the whole time". I'm still staggered by the stupidity of that comment.

[5ive]

You would have to be a retard if it takes you a year to learn to ride a bike.

There's always something new to learn about riding, yet you seem to still not have learnt the first thing, going by the dribble you post.

[T.W.R]

You would have to be a retard if it takes you a year to learn to ride a bike.

You'd have to be a fucking retard to think you can learn to ride a bike within a year!
You never stop learning & the day you do you're dead

[swbarnett]

You would have to be a retard if it takes you a year to learn to ride a bike.
You'd have to be a retard to think that after a year (or less) of riding you know everything there is to know about riding a bike. Hell, I've been riding since 1982 and, while I'd call myself (as have others) a competant rider, I'm still a learner and will be till the day I die.

[Moise]

There's been an interesting series in the Herald this week. In the second article someone analysed the holiday period accidents for the last 5 years.

I'm not sure whether they assigned multiple causes to each accident, but the main cause was not speed or alcohol, but loss of control. Not what the police would have us believe.

Another interesting finding that personality is also a factor. People who tend to take risks are often those who have accidents. Funny that.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the current approach to road safety is not working, especially during the holidays.

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[george formby]

If you still consider yourself a learner why is your bike a GSX 750 and not a learner dedicated LAMS bike? I have been riding since 1976 with no Mid Life Crisis break in between and the only learning I have to do is when I change bikes and familiarise myself with the different handling braking gearing and power band of each bike. If learning to ride was that difficult the NZTA would require all riders to do 12 months at a riding school before getting their full license.

You're awesome. What's your favourite colour power band?

[caspernz]

There's been an interesting series in the Herald this week. In the second article someone analysed the holiday period accidents for the last 5 years.

I'm not sure whether they assigned multiple causes to each accident, but the main cause was not speed or alcohol, but loss of control. Not what the police would have us believe.

Another interesting finding that personality is also a factor. People who tend to take risks are often those who have accidents. Funny that.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the current approach to road safety is not working, especially during the holidays.

How many folks towing race or stock car trailers are law abiding? Same for adventure sports enthusiasts. Bikers are no different really. Portion of any group which can be easily identified will be stereotyped by the worst behavior displayed.


You'd have to be a retard to think that after a year (or less) of riding you know everything there is to know about riding a bike. Hell, I've been riding since 1982 and, while I'd call myself (as have others) a competant rider, I'm still a learner and will be till the day I die.

Ditto for me, plenty of years riding but always learning...


You're awesome. What's your favourite colour power band?

We must resist picking on the challenged...

[Moi]

This recent research out of Virginia Tech makes for interesting reading. Yes, it is US based, but that doesn't detract from the findings...

Summary:

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/what-virginia-tech-learned-about-how-and-why-we-crash-our-motorcycles?


Full report - 20 pages:

https://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/msf100_2016/Risk_Factors_From_MSF_100_Study_Paper.pdf

[Hads]

I crunched the numbers over a year back, there is a lot of detailed low level information if you know where to look

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174664-Crash-statistics?highlight=crash+statistics

As for the article, it is worth noting it was proportion, cars got a lot safer post 2000's, bikes have not as we can't have airbags.

[Tazz]

A couple of points.....

1. The belief that public roads double as racetracks is still extremely common among New Zealand motorcyclists and until we change that attitude we will continue to see unflattering statistics.

2. There is an appalling number of motorcyclists out there who seem incapable of concentrating on what they're doing to the level required to minimise the associated risks of motorcycling. I once had someone on here say to me "but you can't be expected to concentrate the whole time". I'm still staggered by the stupidity of that comment.

Pffft, none of this is isolated to NZ.

[Tazz]

Filter out the scooter riders from the motorcycle riders

Agree, but ONLY for the 49cc bracket. Anything you need a motorcycle license to ride should be classed as a motorcycle. The wee scoots should have their own category and crash stats.

[swbarnett]

If you still consider yourself a learner why is your bike a GSX 750 and not a learner dedicated LAMS bike? I have been riding since 1976 with no Mid Life Crisis break in between and the only learning I have to do is when I change bikes and familiarise myself with the different handling braking gearing and power band of each bike. If learning to ride was that difficult the NZTA would require all riders to do 12 months at a riding school before getting their full license.
Mate, you really are a problem. Those that consider they have nothing to learn are those that will never improve. I've been riding as my primary transport for 24 years (10 year overseas interruption) and I still don't think I'm perfect, far from it. I learn something every time I throw my leg over the bike. Be it something new or just honing things I've met before.

The term "Learner" is very much misused when it comes to the legality of riding. I would much prefer that all those "L" plates be thrown out and replaced with "N" plates. Far more accurate to describe a "new" rider as a Novice than merely a learner - that term belongs to all humanity.

[nzspokes]

I have been rubbished many times on here for not wanting to take up training as there are a number on here who believe training will save you everytime someone else screws up. Those that think that have obviously never been in a situation where things have happened so quick there is no time to even brake or swerve.
Right here is why the training is needed.

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[swbarnett]

This recent research out of Virginia Tech makes for interesting reading. Yes, it is US based, but that doesn't detract from the findings...
One problem I have with studies like this is the observer effect. There are going to be one hell of a lot of riders that will not ride as they normally do if their bike's covered in cameras and data loggers.

[Moi]

One problem I have with studies like this is the observer effect. There are going to be one hell of a lot of riders that will not ride as they normally do if their bike's covered in cameras and data loggers.

True, bias is always an issue with observational data gathering. However, you'd have thought that if you were being observed you be more careful than normal... so why the high incidence of rear-endings?

At least they are trying to look objectively at what riders are doing. Our motorcycle safety council could certainly look at undertaking similar research here through the road safety research group at the University of Waikato.

[Tazz]

There's been an interesting series in the Herald this week. In the second article someone analysed the holiday period accidents for the last 5 years.

I'm not sure whether they assigned multiple causes to each accident, but the main cause was not speed or alcohol, but loss of control. Not what the police would have us believe.

Another interesting finding that personality is also a factor. People who tend to take risks are often those who have accidents. Funny that.

It is becoming increasingly obvious that the current approach to road safety is not working, especially during the holidays.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

Loss of control due to shitty, un-swept, tar bleed covered, pothole infested roads (or at least sections of road)? :whistle:

[caspernz]

Loss of control due to shitty, un-swept, tar bleed covered, pothole infested roads (or at least sections of road)? :whistle:

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:

[Moi]

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:

You suggest that we ride, or for that matter - drive, to the conditions...



could be a novel action for some.

[Moise]

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:
Unswept gravel is an all too common hazard, especially on Auckland's back roads. I don't think Auckland Transport has any idea how dangerous it can be for motorcycles.

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[nzspokes]

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:
Eggzakery. But that would mean planning your corners.

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[george formby]

Unswept gravel is an all too common hazard, especially on Auckland's back roads. I don't think Auckland Transport has any idea how dangerous it can be for motorcycles.

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It's everywhere (gravel), roads aren't the problem, but you're right about council, shits given about the road surface effect on motorcycles? 0


I do like how that research was conducted. If anonymity was guaranteed I would be guinea pig.

[AllanB]

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:

Ahhhh where do you ride? Shit loads of blind corners, and regardless of speed it's not uncommon for there is be pot holes, shingle, sheep or a tourist stopped in the middle of the road taking a fucking photo .....

[george formby]

Ahhhh where do you ride? Shit loads of blind corners, and regardless of speed it's not uncommon for there is be pot holes, shingle, sheep or a tourist stopped in the middle of the road taking a fucking photo .....

Yup, that about sums it up but replace sheep for cattle, dogs or pigs and add in tar slicks just for a laugh. On our Boxing day jaunt we went through lane wide tar bleed, mid corner, which had been carried past the point of origin for a good 20mtrs by the traffic going through it. Must remember that for next time I round the corner in the rain.:shit:

[AllanB]

Must remember that for next time I round the corner in the rain.:shit:


That's good point - on my most frequently travelled ride I know the dips and bumps and take lines to avoid - ironically yesterday being respectful of the volume of Xmas cars I was on one such corner at about 60 behind a car (usual speed on this bend is 'legal'...), took a totally different scenic line around the corner and discovered a new most impressive mid corner dip.

A piece of road resurfaced during the year I may add - poorly as with most Christchurch roads .... unless they are now deliberately engineering uneven surfaces into corners to slow motorcycles down - hey - is this the solution the police are looking for?

[nzspokes]

It would be impossible to develop training for situations when things happen too quick to brake or swerve. It would be like developing training to survive any earthquake irrespective of where you happen to be at the time.
This is why you keep crashing and blaming what ever it is you hit. 8 times now?

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[Katman]

It would be impossible to develop training for situations when things happen too quick to brake or swerve. It would be like developing training to survive any earthquake irrespective of where you happen to be at the time.

Training and adequate concentration can certainly aid in foreseeing what might happen.

Foreseeing what might happen gives you a distinct advantage over those who ride with their brains switched off.

[Katman]

Not all of us are born with woman's intuition though especially if we are guys

Foresight is not the sole domain of women.

Sorry to disappoint you.

[nzspokes]

Yup, that about sums it up but replace sheep for cattle, dogs or pigs and add in tar slicks just for a laugh. On our Boxing day jaunt we went through lane wide tar bleed, mid corner, which had been carried past the point of origin for a good 20mtrs by the traffic going through it. Must remember that for next time I round the corner in the rain.:shit:
You should be able to stop in the distance you can see.

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[nzspokes]

Training and adequate concentration can certainly aid in foreseeing what might happen.

Foreseeing what might happen gives you a distinct advantage over those who ride with their brains switched off.
For a change I agree with you.

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[Tazz]

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:


http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/theticket/Holy-Land-Experience.jpg

To a point for sure, after that it's just a bunch of people preaching what they can't practice (because there is always an element of risk and the unknown).

Anyway, moving back to the poorly written 'article'....

[old slider]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was about Drownings in NZ, Motorcycle deaths will be well under half of the needless drownings around the country, over 90 drowning deaths in 2014.


Sorry,
I know, back on to the topic.

[AllanB]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was about Drownings in NZ, Motorcycle deaths will be well under half of the needless drownings around the country, over 90 drowning deaths in 2014.


Sorry,
I know, back on to the topic.

It's a valid point and a pet annoyance of mine that surf life saving is not government funded. They are one of the few organisations that I part with some hard earned cash to every year.

[AllanB]

Rather than complain about shitty roads I think we really need to be buying vehicles/bikes to handle them due to the NZTA and councils being all the time short of cash unless its for something arty.


But they are so friggen ugly those 'adventure bikes'

Hmmm maybe a Hypermotard or KTM with TKC 80's ........

[pritch]

Those that think that have obviously never been in a situation where things have happened so quick there is no time to even brake or swerve.

On the other hand, and much more likely, their training may have meant they had the time needed to brake or swerve due to having seen the situation develop.

Situational awareness can be taught, ask Katman. It is most unlikely ignorance is going to prove to be an advantage.

[WristTwister]

Often practicality and looks do not go together though if we want to be able to handle rough road conditions with ease.

Maybe if BMW fixed those mismatched headlamps :blink:

The S1000XR is supposed to be the hybrid sportsbike/adventure bike for people who want both and have a spare $30,000.

24 pedestrians died this year, so you could die just walking about - just sayin'.

[Daffyd]

Much is said about the MLC or returning biker. But I would be very interested to see statistics on the types of bikes they buy when they return.

Bearing in mind they were likely riding something that was prolly lucky to put out 40-50 bhp and now God knows what their current choice is putting out They could be unwittingly putting themselves at a higher risk than they realise.

[WristTwister]

The majority of MLC bikers buy Harleys which do not put out a hell of a lot of power despite their engine size but many riders could come to grief on them taking tight corners though. They are a bike along with other brands of cruisers that you buy more for looks than ease of rideability. I demoed one when I had reached a MLC age and it did nothing for me. So it is possible to get through life without having a MLC.

Then there are the "Street Rossi's" on gixxers and ducatis and those bikes are well over 100hp.

[Paul in NZ]

This recent research out of Virginia Tech makes for interesting reading. Yes, it is US based, but that doesn't detract from the findings...

Summary:

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/what-virginia-tech-learned-about-how-and-why-we-crash-our-motorcycles?


Full report - 20 pages:

https://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/msf100_2016/Risk_Factors_From_MSF_100_Study_Paper.pdf

Thank you for posting that - quite interesting reading BUT I think ultimately the results of a study like this will be inaccurate. It relied on volunteers allowing gear to be mounted on the bie and if you know you are being watched your behaviour changes.

Having said that - still some interesting ideas....

[jonbuoy]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was about Drownings in NZ, Motorcycle deaths will be well under half of the needless drownings around the country, over 90 drowning deaths in 2014.


Sorry,
I know, back on to the topic.

Careful - next they'll be fencing off the beaches. Everyone seems to be under the impression that death is completely preventable. It isn't really - we are all going to die someday - fact.
People still manage to kill themselves in cars, surrounded by airbags, crumple zones, 4 sticky tyres with huge contact patches, ABS, traction control & active stability.

Is it really a massive surprise that someone sitting astride an engine with wheels and two minuscule contact patches and nothing to protect them except for a fibreglass bowl and some cow skin (if your lucky) is more likely to be killed or seriously injured?

A minor fender bender that doesn't even trigger the airbag in a car could cause a life changing injury to a motorcyclist.

Having said that a lot of motorcyclists don't do themselves any favours (myself included) by riding like complete dick heads on occasion.

[Scubbo]

another one overnight :( DRZ rider too :(

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/88001945/motorcyclist-dead-after-crash-in-cromwell

[Tazz]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was about Drownings in NZ, Motorcycle deaths will be well under half of the needless drownings around the country, over 90 drowning deaths in 2014.


Sorry,
I know, back on to the topic.

Comparing just the deaths is misleading. There are a hell of a lot more people in and out of the water every year.

I agree it is something that more could be done about from what I've heard (from an ex Olympian turned swim coach customer), although when I was at school water safety was covered excellently for both ocean (primary) and rivers (high school).

[caspernz]

On the other hand, and much more likely, their training may have meant they had the time needed to brake or swerve due to having seen the situation develop.

Situational awareness can be taught, ask Katman. It is most unlikely ignorance is going to prove to be an advantage.

Situational awareness isn't a fix-all but it's a step in the right direction...



Foresight is not the sole domain of women.

Sorry to disappoint you.

The ability to anticipate requires an open mind though...



You should be able to stop in the distance you can see.

Which is just one of the road rules many of us break all too often. So when a Rossi wannabe charges around that 65 sign posted corner at 120 in an 80 zone and hits Farmer Bobs' tractor up the rear...can we blame the tractor?



To a point for sure, after that it's just a bunch of people preaching what they can't practice (because there is always an element of risk and the unknown).

Of course, and I'll be upfront and admit that my biking experience is limited to 3 continents, 3 decades, so I'm still learning myself. Just saying that a bit of self preservation, mixed with some quality on-going training/coaching can reduce the risk...make of that what you wish. Of course the unknown remains, but the "unknown" shrinks when sound riding practice is put in place.



But my point is not all "situations" as you put it develop in a slow enough motion to brake or swerve. I guess if you have never been in such a "situation" you will never understand what I am on about.

Situational awareness will never eliminate all emergency situations, but it will reduce the number you're involved in, as you'll see them develop. Of course this requires an open mind and reasonable observation skills, which can be taught, whereas an open or closed mind is a decision.



Thank you for posting that - quite interesting reading BUT I think ultimately the results of a study like this will be inaccurate. It relied on volunteers allowing gear to be mounted on the bie and if you know you are being watched your behaviour changes.

Having said that - still some interesting ideas....

Yes I found that interesting reading, but we'll never know how skewed the findings were on account of the riders being observed. The accident stats from our PTB are the next best thing.



Then there are the "Street Rossi's" on gixxers and ducatis and those bikes are well over 100hp.

I see just as many near misses from cruiser riders who have no grasp on their own (or their machines') ability. As a trucker, I see lots of poor riding, especially on weekends. The inability of riders to take a correct line thru a corner (for starters on their side of the centerline) is not the reserve of the MotoGP wannabe.

The next thing that is obvious on weekends is the variation in ability in general. Not hard to spot a real rider vs a guy with a bike. And this is merely my observation, not intended to offend anyone.

[swbarnett]

True, bias is always an issue with observational data gathering. However, you'd have thought that if you were being observed you be more careful than normal... so why the high incidence of rear-endings?
My feeling is that a biker's rear is not generally cosidered a problem so it's not something an "observation influenced" biker will think of. If anything the incidence of rear-ending may be higher while being observed because speeds may be lower.


At least they are trying to look objectively at what riders are doing. Our motorcycle safety council could certainly look at undertaking similar research here through the road safety research group at the University of Waikato.
Agreed.

[swbarnett]

None of which should present a huge challenge to a rider travelling at a sensible pace, with their eyes open...:innocent::yawn:
Agreed. However, when said conditions are hidden by water, sun etc. they can still be a problem.

[george formby]

You should be able to stop in the distance you can see.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

Generally, yup. My reason for making a mental note of the tar paint is due to it being invisible if the road is wet. So I'm implying that bike control should be listed along with observation and situational awareness.
With the conditions of our road surfaces, being able to catch a wee step out or unexpected lock up when braking is very relevant. IMHO

[old slider]

Situational awareness isn't a fix-all but it's a step in the right direction...




The ability to anticipate requires an open mind though...




Which is just one of the road rules many of us break all too often. So when a Rossi wannabe charges around that 65 sign posted corner at 120 in an 80 zone and hits Farmer Bobs' tractor up the rear...can we blame the tractor?




Of course, and I'll be upfront and admit that my biking experience is limited to 3 continents, 3 decades, so I'm still learning myself. Just saying that a bit of self preservation, mixed with some quality on-going training/coaching can reduce the risk...make of that what you wish. Of course the unknown remains, but the "unknown" shrinks when sound riding practice is put in place.




Situational awareness will never eliminate all emergency situations, but it will reduce the number you're involved in, as you'll see them develop. Of course this requires an open mind and reasonable observation skills, which can be taught, whereas an open or closed mind is a decision.




Yes I found that interesting reading, but we'll never know how skewed the findings were on account of the riders being observed. The accident stats from our PTB are the next best thing.




I see just as many near misses from cruiser riders who have no grasp on their own (or their machines') ability. As a trucker, I see lots of poor riding, especially on weekends. The inability of riders to take a correct line thru a corner (for starters on their side of the centerline) is not the reserve of the MotoGP wannabe.

The next thing that is obvious on weekends is the variation in ability in general. Not hard to spot a real rider vs a guy with a bike. And this is merely my observation, not intended to offend anyone.



Good post. thanks for that insight.

The Latest HOG magazine has a good two page article headlined, "The Great Escape" has some awesome advice and various strategies for riders and us so called MLC (My Life Changed riders) because my kids are all grown up, my mortgage is paid, I have some spare coin and have more spare time.

[swbarnett]

So what more exactly do you want to learn about riding or need to learn? If you can state that then I would be able to say yes or no as to whether I have learnt that myself.
The trick is that I don't know what I have yet to learn. I know enough to know how little I really know. All I do know is that with your attitude you'll be blind to even the obvious learning opportunities that arise.

Only when you can guarantee 1000% that you can ride anywhere, at any time, under any conditions, arriving in one piece, in such a way that no divine entity could show you even the slightest room for improvement can you rightly say that you have nothing to learn.

[willytheekid]

https://fmacskasy.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/dilbert_made_up_numbers.gif

Worst MOTORCYLE** deaths in 19 years (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/181818-NOT-GOOD-Worst-deaths-in-19-years/page2)


motorcycle** =

-All Dirtbike's
-All Farmers Quads & trikes & mudbugs etc
-All Kids bikes (two, three & 4 wheel powered vehicles)
-All Road Bikes, peddle assist, moped, scooters, some mobility scooters the lot!



...so how many warranted & registered road legal motorcycle deaths have we had on our roads again Mr Revenue collection officer and Ever quick to judge media??





"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics!"

-Mark Twain



Happy New Year Kbers...ride safe :love:

[swbarnett]

Not all of us are born with woman's intuition though especially if we are guys
Wrong. That intuition is not the exclusive purview of women. It's something you build up over the years if your mind is open to it. It's called your subconscious.

[old slider]

Generally, yup. My reason for making a mental note of the tar paint is due to it being invisible if the road is wet. So I'm implying that bike control should be listed along with observation and situational awareness.
With the conditions of our road surfaces, being able to catch a wee step out or unexpected lock up when braking is very relevant. IMHO



Dumb question, but for newbies, how do we learn to catch the wee step out or unexpected lock up safely?

[onearmedbandit]

Dumb question, but for newbies, how do we learn to catch the wee step out or unexpected lock up safely?

Dirt bike riding for one.

[Blackbird]

It's all very well to argue about statistics and pinpointing root causes but I reckon that it's a bit more straightforward than that. Several of the posters have mentioned seeing poor skills displayed by riders on a regular basis. Bringing it even closer to home, how many have actually taken road-based training courses to get rid of those bad habits which inevitably creep in? How many make a point of upskilling periodically to stop the inevitable slide in skills?

What I'm trying to say that there's a lot we can all do as individuals to reduce personal risk and the motorcycle road toll without blaming cagers, statisticians and god knows who else. The biggest hurdle is actually getting off your arse and doing something about it. Most of it comes down to personal responsibility.

[onearmedbandit]

Most of it comes down to personal responsibility.

I'd argue that it all comes down to personal responsibility. I mean, who else are you going to leave it to?

[FJRider]

The only way the loss of control problem will be solved will be when they bring in driverless cars thats only if they can make them 100% safe.

Might be a while yet then ... :pinch:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/google-driverless-car-involved-worst-8917388

[ellipsis]

The old road code that I studied well when I was 15 and just going for my car and bike licences was a cool little book. At the end of it was a defensive driving chapter which brushed over a few important points. It also recommended doing a 'defensive driving course'. All those little pictures and tips stuck with me and still come into view even now. The one that sticks the most is, looking at where you are as well as looking at where you will be and to peer through hedges and any other stuff to see what may be around the bend, and to slow up if you are unsure of whats happening. It has not stopped me losing it when I have been acting silly and is not a failsafe, but how many riders actually are proactive in checking out evry driveway, country gate or side road. Too many riders are all intent on their 'style', and performance and just don't seem to get the point about being totally vulnerable to whatever happens in the next three second. That was 45 years ago. Educating yourself to the unforseen risks would go a long way to stopping a lot of these fatalities. Just because you have twin Brembos or ABS means fuck all if you don't have situational awareness.
But shit is always going to happen.

Riding a Sportster and just having fun riding may help too:whistle:

[old slider]

I'd argue that it all comes down to personal responsibility. I mean, who else are you going to leave it to?


I agree.
Give that man a DB.

[Blackbird]

I'd argue that it all comes down to personal responsibility. I mean, who else are you going to leave it to?

Touche! You'd have to wonder though with the blame culture displayed on KB :laugh:

[FJRider]

So what more exactly do you want to learn about riding or need to learn? If you can state that then I would be able to say yes or no as to whether I have learnt that myself.

I think he refers to the principal of the old adage ... Experience is something you get ... right after you need it.

Basically ... just when you think you've seen/experienced all the stupid maneuvers another motorist can perform near you on a public highway ... another motorist will show you something new. Or at least a variation of an old one.

[FJRider]

Foresight is not the sole domain of women.

Sorry to disappoint you.

She has 20/20 Hindsight ...

[WristTwister]

Bringing it even closer to home, how many have actually taken road-based training courses to get rid of those bad habits which inevitably creep in? How many make a point of upskilling periodically to stop the inevitable slide in skills?

The biggest hurdle is actually getting off your arse and doing something about it. Most of it comes down to personal responsibility.

The police Superintendent in the news article points to macho culture as a problem factor. Do Macho riders take responsiblity, avoid taking silly risks or do any training to improve their roadcraft? Probably not. <_< Probably never will because they have an ego in the way.

[FJRider]

But my point is not all "situations" as you put it develop in a slow enough motion to brake or swerve. I guess if you have never been in such a "situation" you will never understand what I am on about.

If that IS your belief ... then it is you that needs more training. Recognition of "potential" trouble ahead is a starting point.

The belief that every vehicle within 50 meters of you is capable (in some way) of doing you serious harm ... can help you spot that harm and start taking steps to avoid it. You may get a few "false alarms" ... but you will still be alive. And being "In the right" wont save you.

[FJRider]

Agreed. However, when said conditions are hidden by water, sun etc. they can still be a problem.

When riding in those different conditions ... you look for problems those conditions hide.

[Blackbird]

The police Superintendent in the news article points to macho culture as a problem factor. Do Macho riders take responsiblity, avoid taking silly risks or do any training to improve their roadcraft? Probably not. <_< Probably never will because they have an ego in the way.

Most likely spot on :headbang:. There are lots of other riders though who could improve their skills and reduce risk. SW Barnett mentioned not knowing what you don't know. I was definitely in this category and it wasn't until I had an assessment by Philip McDaid from Riderskills against UK Police Roadcraft measurable criteria that it was brought home pretty dramatically just how much scope there was for improvement. Six years down the track, I'd like to think I'm a much better rider than I used to be and the other important benefit is that I enjoy riding so much more.

[Berries]

motorcycle** =

-All Dirtbike's
-All Farmers Quads & trikes & mudbugs etc
-All Kids bikes (two, three & 4 wheel powered vehicles)
-All Road Bikes, peddle assist, moped, scooters, some mobility scooters the lot!



...so how many warranted & registered road legal motorcycle deaths have we had on our roads again Mr Revenue collection officer and Ever quick to judge media??

Well 13 off road bikes including a couple of quads, one moped and the rest were all road bikes. Harleys made up 13 of them, five Suzuki, four Yam, three each of BMW, Buell, Ducati, Honda and Triumph and then two Kawasakis. Seeing as you asked.

[nzspokes]

It's all very well to argue about statistics and pinpointing root causes but I reckon that it's a bit more straightforward than that. Several of the posters have mentioned seeing poor skills displayed by riders on a regular basis. Bringing it even closer to home, how many have actually taken road-based training courses to get rid of those bad habits which inevitably creep in? How many make a point of upskilling periodically to stop the inevitable slide in skills?

What I'm trying to say that there's a lot we can all do as individuals to reduce personal risk and the motorcycle road toll without blaming cagers, statisticians and god knows who else. The biggest hurdle is actually getting off your arse and doing something about it. Most of it comes down to personal responsibility.
Agree. Sad part is those that need wont.

I have a recent experience of a group ride which reminded me of this. Was scary bad and no surprise when I came across one of them in a bank.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[old slider]

Reading through these posts it becomes pretty clear to me that Bike riding is as much a thinking game as it is a skills game.

I will keep working on my "what if" game, and a big part of my mental plan is looking for escape routes or a possible way out of a situation as I am riding, for when a pleasant ride may turn into a potential painful one.

[Katman]

Was scary bad and no surprise when I came across one of them in a bank.

Let me guess.....

Was it a faulty sidestand spring?

[ellipsis]

Maybe crusiers should be banned from NZ roads due to their inability to handle tight NZ bends. Sports bikes are not the safest either as the crouched down riding position reduces periferal vision. The most dangerous observation I notice on weekends is the number of group riders making multi vehicle overtakes in an effort to "keep up" There was a death on the Rumitukas a year or so ago from a guy doing an overtake and it was reported in the media his mates said he was a "Good Rider" and a guy posted on here a few years back that all his mates who were better than him were now in the cemetery. He is the better rider in my opinion.


...I have made a conscious effort to refrain from reacting to your pig headed way of looking at life from inside your 'experiences have shown me', resolutions...but I don't have the strength of will...I took you off ignore...you are now back there... that wasn't too bad, not even one expletive...

[nzspokes]

Let me guess.....

Was it a faulty sidestand spring?
Only if you worked on it.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[nzspokes]

Reading through these posts it becomes pretty clear to me that Bike riding is as much a thinking game as it is a skills game.

I will keep working on my "what if" game, and a big part of my mental plan is looking for escape routes or a possible way out of a situation as I am riding, for when a pleasant ride may turn into a potential painful one.
You got it. Look for training in your part of the world.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[swbarnett]

Most likely spot on :headbang:. There are lots of other riders though who could improve their skills and reduce risk. SW Barnett mentioned not knowing what you don't know. I was definitely in this category and it wasn't until I had an assessment by Philip McDaid from Riderskills against UK Police Roadcraft measurable criteria that it was brought home pretty dramatically just how much scope there was for improvement. Six years down the track, I'd like to think I'm a much better rider than I used to be and the other important benefit is that I enjoy riding so much more.
Agreed. Although, no matter how much training you get, it's important to remember that you will never know what you still don't know.

[swbarnett]

Maybe crusiers should be banned from NZ roads ...
Once you've started, why stop there?

[onearmedbandit]

Regarding training, I'm an advocate of it. My father made me do a defensive driving course when I got my license back when I was 15yrs old, best thing he ever did for me. Situational awareness and hazard detection are two of the things that stood out to me and that I still employ today. Amazes me that this sort of training isn't compulsory.

[onearmedbandit]

If you have to ride with so much fear of coming to grief is it not time to give up riding? Do people climb mountains with a fear of coming to grief?

Huh? How did you get that from what I posted? Seriously. Where did I mention anything to do with fear? Are you suggesting that being aware of your surroundings and detecting potential hazards are bad form?

[Moi]

My feeling is that a biker's rear is not generally considered a problem so it's not something an "observation influenced" biker will think of. If anything the incidence of rear-ending may be higher while being observed because speeds may be lower.

I wonder if I've misunderstood Table 4.

I took from what was presented in that table to mean that the biker hit the rear of the other vehicle. My reason for thinking that is that other categories are labelled "other vehicle" which implies, to me, that the first category - "rear end, striking" - means the bike struck another vehicle.

[nzspokes]

All the time riding looking for potential things that could go wrong does give me the impressing you ride in fear. My level of alertness for danger varies depending on where I am but if fear was to kick in as soon as I got out the gate I would give up riding.
Which again is where you are completely wrong.

He more I go through the process, the calmer the riding feels.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[caspernz]

My feeling is that a biker's rear is not generally cosidered a problem so it's not something an "observation influenced" biker will think of. If anything the incidence of rear-ending may be higher while being observed because speeds may be lower.

A bikers' rear may be a problem in stop/start traffic or stationary at a junction. That's where rearward observation combined with an escape path comes into it.



Agreed. However, when said conditions are hidden by water, sun etc. they can still be a problem.

Constantly adapting to conditions is the mark of a skilled rider though isn't it? A bit of anticipation reduces the element of surprise to a degree.



Good post. thanks for that insight.

The Latest HOG magazine has a good two page article headlined, "The Great Escape" has some awesome advice and various strategies for riders and us so called MLC (My Life Changed riders) because my kids are all grown up, my mortgage is paid, I have some spare coin and have more spare time.

Funny you say that, for in some ways I could see myself as a returning rider, having had a few years away from a bike. My own initiative saw me upskilling and I view the learning process as a never ending one.



Dumb question, but for newbies, how do we learn to catch the wee step out or unexpected lock up safely?

Dirt bike exposure helps. As a rule of thumb, remove the force causing the step or the slide and stay loose on the bars.



It's all very well to argue about statistics and pinpointing root causes but I reckon that it's a bit more straightforward than that. Several of the posters have mentioned seeing poor skills displayed by riders on a regular basis. Bringing it even closer to home, how many have actually taken road-based training courses to get rid of those bad habits which inevitably creep in? How many make a point of upskilling periodically to stop the inevitable slide in skills?

What I'm trying to say that there's a lot we can all do as individuals to reduce personal risk and the motorcycle road toll without blaming cagers, statisticians and god knows who else. The biggest hurdle is actually getting off your arse and doing something about it. Most of it comes down to personal responsibility.

This will be where ego comes into the equation, I've been thru this stage myself. Saying to myself I've got lots of experience, so why should I have my own skills weighed and measured? Sure glad I did though, for there is quite a bit to finesse if one can put the "I already know it all" attitude aside...


Most likely spot on :headbang:. There are lots of other riders though who could improve their skills and reduce risk. SW Barnett mentioned not knowing what you don't know. I was definitely in this category and it wasn't until I had an assessment by Philip McDaid from Riderskills against UK Police Roadcraft measurable criteria that it was brought home pretty dramatically just how much scope there was for improvement. Six years down the track, I'd like to think I'm a much better rider than I used to be and the other important benefit is that I enjoy riding so much more.

Yeah well, we've both gone down this path and while it's a learning curve, it also adds to the enjoyment of riding. Sounds counter-intuitive to a non believer I accept, but seeing I was once a non believer...



Maybe crusiers should be banned from NZ roads due to their inability to handle tight NZ bends. Sports bikes are not the safest either as the crouched down riding position reduces periferal vision. The most dangerous observation I notice on weekends is the number of group riders making multi vehicle overtakes in an effort to "keep up" There was a death on the Rumitukas a year or so ago from a guy doing an overtake and it was reported in the media his mates said he was a "Good Rider" and a guy posted on here a few years back that all his mates who were better than him were now in the cemetery. He is the better rider in my opinion.

The type of bike isn't the problem. I've seen cruiser type bike riders run rings around so-called sports bike riders, the difference is the skill of the rider. Couple that with using a bike within its operating envelope and there's no reason why we can't have a big Harley safely making its way around the twisties as safely as a sports bike, so what if the Harley is a bit slower? As for the crouched down riding position being an issue, well it might be if you choose to only look about 20 yards ahead of yourself, but I've had various kinds if bike, now on a Hayabusa and the riding position doesn't inhibit forward observation...



If you have to ride with so much fear of coming to grief is it not time to give up riding? Do people climb mountains with a fear of coming to grief?

Just from a personal perspective, I'm not afraid of coming to grief anytime I venture out on two wheels, but I do take all care and responsibility to make sure my journey is safe.

[onearmedbandit]

All the time riding looking for potential things that could go wrong does give me the impressing you ride in fear. My level of alertness for danger varies depending on where I am but if fear was to kick in as soon as I got out the gate I would give up riding.

I think you assume far too much. Being aware of ones surroundings does not mean being in fear. When did I state that I'm spending 'all my time' looking for potential things to go wrong? Where did I say anything about fear? It's a pity that you can only seemingly see things in extreme.

Your arrogance quite frankly devalues from any message you are trying to convey. Stop to think why you've become such a target here when others who have had similar messages haven't.

[WristTwister]

I think you assume far too much. Being aware of ones surroundings does not mean being in fear. When did I state that I'm spending 'all my time' looking for potential things to go wrong? Where did I say anything about fear? It's a pity that you can only seemingly see things in extreme.

Your arrogance quite frankly devalues from any message you are trying to convey. Stop to think why you've become such a target here when others who have had similar messages haven't.

Defensive driving and being aware of your surroundings isn't fear. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly not understanding what situational awareness means.

[onearmedbandit]

What you said gave me the impression you were fearful whenever you got on you bike which would be the reason why most give up riding sooner or later.

Then you need to reevaluate how you perceive what you read, because you have no, let me repeat, no, understanding of what I'm saying. Just because you assume something that does not make it true. Please stop assuming you know what goes on in other peoples heads, because you quite clearly have no idea and arrive at stupid, borderline insane, conclusions.



Just because a few posters like yourself disagree with my views it does not mean all readers do though. I often wonder why those who do not like my posts waste their time responding.

Because of the outlandish assumptions you make. You suggested in your response to my 'training' post that being aware of your surroundings and aware of hazards was a bad thing. Seriously? I'm certain you are not advocating riding without being aware, but you can't seem to find any middle ground.

[Ocean1]

You suggest that we ride, or for that matter - drive, to the conditions....

Which would certainly be some sort of silver bullet.

If the fucking conditions didn't change from perfect to fucked in two meters with zero warning.

Booby traps don't cause all of the "carnage", but they sure don't help.

[Ocean1]

Comparing just the deaths is misleading. There are a hell of a lot more people in and out of the water every year.

I agree it is something that more could be done about from what I've heard (from an ex Olympian turned swim coach customer), although when I was at school water safety was covered excellently for both ocean (primary) and rivers (high school).

When you were at school may have been before they closed all of the school pools because they were dangerous.

And strangely enough adult drownings have climbed ever since...

[Ocean1]

Well 13 off road bikes including a couple of quads, one moped and the rest were all road bikes. Harleys made up 13 of them, five Suzuki, four Yam, three each of BMW, Buell, Ducati, Honda and Triumph and then two Kawasakis. Seeing as you asked.

So exactly half of them weren't actually road bikes...

[Berries]

I only just managed to stop myself going there.

[Ocean1]

I only just managed to stop myself going there.

To be more fair than may be necessary most of the related riding isn't on what can strictly be called roads.

So we're back to dirt bikes.

[Moi]

Which would certainly be some sort of silver bullet.
If the fucking conditions didn't change from perfect to fucked in two meters with zero warning.
Booby traps don't cause all of the "carnage", but they sure don't help.

Agree... road signage and markings, whether permanent or temporary, can leave something to be desired... I wonder if some "road engineers" ever drive on the roads they are responsible for?



To be more fair than may be necessary most of the related riding isn't on what can strictly be called roads.

So we're back to dirt bikes.

I understand the same approach is used by ACC, so that farmer having an "off" on his quad is counted as a "bike accident"...

[FJRider]

But would it not be time to give up riding if you are in constant fear of being hit. The only time when it really is close to a constant fear for me is if I am on wet/icy roads but usually take the car in such situations too.

Most motorcyclists that ride at (or near) their limits ... usually adhere to the principals of risk management.

It's not riding in fear of their life ... usually just the aversion to pain ... that keeps their attention to their riding.

"Being hit" is not usually a regular event for a motorcyclist. If it is ... then they didn't learn anything from the first time they were hit.

[Ocean1]

Agree... road signage and markings, whether permanent or temporary, can leave something to be desired... I wonder if some "road engineers" ever drive on the roads they are responsible for?




I understand the same approach is used by ACC, so that farmer having an "off" on his quad is counted as a "bike accident"...

If an "engineer's" involved at all it's obviously not one that has ever tackled a 4x4 post at any speed in person. Maybe that should be considered part of "road engineer" training.


Aye. I was being facetious wrt HD inclusion in motorcycle stat's, but you're correct; quads are counted in most official stat's too. I wonder if there's any point at all in asking for comparisons between quads, the light tractors that preceded them and the horses they replaced? 'Cause I'm pretty sure there'd be substantial improvements in every case...

[mossy1200]

So exactly half of them weren't actually road bikes...

Looks like MV and KTM are the safest option.

[Ocean1]

Looks like MV and KTM are the safest option.

Good spotting. I may feature on a list of "severely bruised" though.

Must admit I'm surprised that three people managed to get their Ducatis going long enough to contribute...

[jonbuoy]

If you have to ride with so much fear of coming to grief is it not time to give up riding? Do people climb mountains with a fear of coming to grief?

A little fear is a healthy thing.

[swbarnett]

I wonder if I've misunderstood Table 4.

I took from what was presented in that table to mean that the biker hit the rear of the other vehicle. My reason for thinking that is that other categories are labelled "other vehicle" which implies, to me, that the first category - "rear end, striking" - means the bike struck another vehicle.
Sory, bad assumption re your post on my part.

[swbarnett]

A bikers' rear may be a problem in stop/start traffic or stationary at a junction. That's where rearward observation combined with an escape path comes into it.
Agreed. I just meant that I don't think too many riders are worried about being rear-ended.


Constantly adapting to conditions is the mark of a skilled rider though isn't it? A bit of anticipation reduces the element of surprise to a degree.
Indeed it is. But even the most alert rider can be caught out, just not nearly as often (and likely with a better result) as someone with the careless attitude that cassina seems to be advocating.

[Katman]

All the time riding looking for potential things that could go wrong does give me the impressing you ride in fear. My level of alertness for danger varies depending on where I am but if fear was to kick in as soon as I got out the gate I would give up riding.

I'm shocked that you can equated making yourself as aware of your surroundings as possible, with riding in fear.

Do you also subscribe to the theory that you can't be expected to concentrate the whole time you're riding?

[R650R]

I crunched the numbers over a year back, there is a lot of detailed low level information if you know where to look

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174664-Crash-statistics?highlight=crash+statistics

As for the article, it is worth noting it was proportion, cars got a lot safer post 2000's, bikes have not as we can't have airbags.

ta will have to look closer aletr when have time

[R650R]

Agreed. Although, no matter how much training you get, it's important to remember that you will never know what you still don't know.

Yep that's one thing I keep in mind, both training and experience never fully prepare you for every scenario.
The best training io had, however simple was the plain old boring defensive driving course back in highschool days. Back then it had not occurred to me (as young person) that running off the road entirely was an option when confronted with headon crash. "What you mean Im going to wreck my new wheels, let the other guy in worng escape and tehn live to tell about it, that kinda sucks!"
There were three or maybe four R's, read road ahead, realise dangerous sitiaution, react (move left or brake), run right off road if necessary. That basic premise still works for with addition of experience fine tuning it.
But I do wonder how many road victims thought processes don't get to enage that far, just fear and panic braking only.....

Very often I've seen a dangerous sitation develop and the oncoming motorist reacts too slowly to the bad driver due to their sense of entitlement of them not suppose to being on their side of road....

[nzspokes]

Yep that's one thing I keep in mind, both training and experience never fully prepare you for every scenario.
The best training io had, however simple was the plain old boring defensive driving course back in highschool days. Back then it had not occurred to me (as young person) that running off the road entirely was an option when confronted with headon crash. "What you mean Im going to wreck my new wheels, let the other guy in worng escape and tehn live to tell about it, that kinda sucks!"
There were three or maybe four R's, read road ahead, realise dangerous sitiaution, react (move left or brake), run right off road if necessary. That basic premise still works for with addition of experience fine tuning it.
But I do wonder how many road victims thought processes don't get to enage that far, just fear and panic braking only.....

Very often I've seen a dangerous sitation develop and the oncoming motorist reacts too slowly to the bad driver due to their sense of entitlement of them not suppose to being on their side of road....
To me training gives you options when things go wrong. Say when you are out wide on a turn and you see a tractor going slow, you have more time to react.

I agree that sometimes shit is going to get you but would rather have a good chance to react.

As a side note, better observation has improved my driving as well. Bit had to filter in a Commodore though.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[george formby]

Summat missing in this well chewed topic so far, IMHO, is why we ride bikes in the first place. They are fun! Bloody hilarious actually and for me personally, totally involving. It's not just the braaaap I enjoy but doing something which takes up all of my attention. I don't think about whats for tea or who has posted on facebook when I'm riding, I'm in the moment. Observing, anticipating, trying to join the dots of everything I can sense.

I don't apply myself so completely because I'm in fear, it's because I enjoy it, love it.

Training and practice is fun, too. It takes me out of my comfort zone, improves my instinctive reactions and broadens my abilities and knowledge. Which, funnily enough, makes riding even more fun. Rinse and repeat.
It's always a pleasure when a potential hazard pops up on the radar and is a non event due to what I'm learning and practicing. I like non eventful rides.

Training is a social thing, too. It's great to get out and meet new riders and highly skilled professionals, talk bikes, share stories and generally broaden the whole motorcycle experience. It may not be for everybody but a days training is a nice change from riding the usual roads and generally gives me more to consider next time I do head out for a Far North lap.

Just sayin. Anything that increases the fun factor and improves safety has to be a good thing.

[nzspokes]

It would be interesting to get cassina evaluated by Peter. I suspect there are big issues with her riding.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[onearmedbandit]

Often if I have no traffic in front of me with a lot of traffic coming towards I will slow down and ride as much to the left as possible in case someone trys an overtake.

I'm probably going to regret getting into a conversation with you again, but ah fuck it, here goes. What you've described there to me sounds like you are riding in fear. Riding in fear of someone overtaking so you slow right down and move as far left in your lane as possible. That to me is inviting an overtake because it's quite possible someone will see an essentially empty opposite lane. In the situation you describe above I'll stay in my normal position (called 'owning your lane') and watch closely for any change in the oncoming traffics behaviour. And while I haven't been riding quite as long as you I've never had a situation arise where I've had to take 'emergency action', but I have however needed to react to a vehicle pulling out which I've done with no knee-jerk response.

[willytheekid]

It would be interesting to get cassina evaluated by Peter. I suspect there are big issues with her riding.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk


Ahhh, I think It would be more interesting to get cassina evaluated by "other" professionals :killingme(Lets not waste poor Rastiscats time....hes just a riding instructor!, and he is already WELL aware of cassinas...errr...issues!:scratch:)

https://i.imgflip.com/kn3x8.jpg
is ok cassina...we can spot our own! :D

[MD]

Unbelievable but again today, another motorcyclist dead. That must be close to one a day for a week. This time a lone rider near Mt Cook.

I've stayed away from commenting on the why's and why not's being discussed here as there are just too many variables in each accident. Each one is a combination of circumstances, some our own doing, some beyond our control or awareness. Trying to find a common denominator to magically solve the problem is a big ask.

personally I always want to know why I crashed and so long as I can understand what happened, what I did wrong - if I was at fault, then I'm at peace with myself and to continue riding.

Sadly, this week so many are not even surviving to ponder what went wrong. I can see TBTB and ACC jumping on this band wagon next year and the cost of riding increasing. So long as we are crashing this frequently we don't have a valid argument against any rego/ACC increases. User pays.

Lets just all try and be as safe and alert to our surroundings as possible at all times and do better in 2017.

One last observation. I would say from personal opinion being out and about on our roads a lot, that there are less people riding bikes each year, not more as these stats seem to imply.

[george formby]

When I say I slow down its not to a crawl but just enough so that if I have to stop suddenly I dont end up dropping my bike..

Hmmmmm, that sounds fearful.....

I've found the safest way to stop a bike is to gently apply the front brake while you are pushing it. I mean gently, you don't want to lock up that nasty front wheel at sub walking pace. Scary shit!

[onearmedbandit]

But earlier posts I was rubbished for not keeping an eye out for potential dangerous situations and now I have given an example of keeping an eye on a hazard I still get rubbished.

No you said that because I said I was keeping an eye out for potential hazards that it sounded to you like I was riding in 'fear', but when you do it you're not. Holier than thou?

[onearmedbandit]

Regarding training, I'm an advocate of it. My father made me do a defensive driving course when I got my license back when I was 15yrs old, best thing he ever did for me. Situational awareness and hazard detection are two of the things that stood out to me and that I still employ today. Amazes me that this sort of training isn't compulsory.


But you gave me the impression you rode in constant fear rather than have a bit of fear only in certain situations.

There's my post that somehow gave you that impression. Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion from what I posted?


I'll even help you a little. Your reply should be something like 'you never actually said you ride in fear'. Want to know why? I don't believe I ever 'ride in fear', however I most certainly ride with awareness, of my surroundings, other traffic, etc. But no, not in 'fear'.

[WristTwister]

2 pedestrians died this holiday season and 2 people using public transport, that's 31% of the road toll - when are ACC going to ban walking and public transport?

My point being that statistics can tell any story you want.

Be safe everyone. Watch your speed and watch for cagers because they aren't watching for you.:hug:

[george formby]

But earlier posts I was rubbished for not keeping an eye out for potential dangerous situations and now I have given an example of keeping an eye on a hazard I still get rubbished.

I'm rubbishing the fact that you consider the threat of an oncoming vehicle performing an overtake can be mitigated by slowing down and creating the space and temptation for them to do so. Your rationale is concern about braking at the open road speed limit, your happier braking from a slower speed, quite possibly at the road side where all the rubbish collects. Hardly improving your braking safety.

Whatever makes you happy I guess.

[Blackbird]

Whatever makes you happy I guess.

I'm surprised you're trying to argue logically - remember the famous multi-page IAM post? Cassina has a different perspective from everyone else. :facepalm:

Do yourself a favour and go for a ride - much better for the soul :2thumbsup

[george formby]

I'm surprised you're trying to argue logically - remember the famous multi-page IAM post? Cassina has a different perspective from everyone else. :facepalm:

Do yourself a favour and go for a ride - much better for the soul :2thumbsup

LOL. I'm practicing self discipline when it comes to handling misguided or illogical perspectives, even people trying to get a bite for their own entertainment. I've not used a single nasty word all day.

[AllanB]

I'm rubbishing the fact that you consider the threat of an oncoming vehicle performing an overtake can be mitigated by slowing down and creating the space and temptation for them to do so. Your rationale is concern about braking at the open road speed limit, your happier braking from a slower speed, quite possibly at the road side where all the rubbish collects. Hardly improving your braking safety.

Whatever makes you happy I guess.

Very valid points above.

Possibly Cassina fear of oncoming traffic pulling out to overtake could be alleviated with some decent rider training?

[Ulsterkiwi]

Unbelievable but again today, another motorcyclist dead. That must be close to one a day for a week. This time a lone rider near Mt Cook.

I've stayed away from commenting on the why's and why not's being discussed here as there are just too many variables in each accident. Each one is a combination of circumstances, some our own doing, some beyond our control or awareness. Trying to find a common denominator to magically solve the problem is a big ask.

personally I always want to know why I crashed and so long as I can understand what happened, what I did wrong - if I was at fault, then I'm at peace with myself and to continue riding.

Sadly, this week so many are not even surviving to ponder what went wrong. I can see TBTB and ACC jumping on this band wagon next year and the cost of riding increasing. So long as we are crashing this frequently we don't have a valid argument against any rego/ACC increases. User pays.

Lets just all try and be as safe and alert to our surroundings as possible at all times and do better in 2017.

One last observation. I would say from personal opinion being out and about on our roads a lot, that there are less people riding bikes each year, not more as these stats seem to imply.

I really do not mean to completely diss the perspective you have expressed here but its a good demonstration of how our misinformed opinions are directing many of our attitudes. The figures say that there are more motorcycles on the road than ever. Your opinion is there are fewer, it is based, by your explanation, on your "being on the roads" and presumably what you see, that is never the whole story is it?
The figures also show that the rate of crashes when compared to the number of riders on the road is decreasing. Raw numbers or inappropriate statistics plucked from the air never tell the whole story. I have yet to meet a journalist (and I know a few) who really understand statistics, whether descriptive or analytical so the Stuff article goes very firmly in the "meh" box for me.

The figures also tell us that when we die on our bikes, its rarely down to anyone but ourselves as riders. Lets say, just for the sake of argument, those figures are only half right. That's still a lot of deaths that MIGHT be avoided if we were more honest with ourselves about our skills and abilities as riders. There are some who are not convinced of the value of training or even that they have something to learn. Here is the challenge, a bet if you like, spend $20 on a one day course rather than a powerball ticket and go book yourself on a Ride Forever course and try to go with an open mind. I am pretty sure you will come away feeling the benefit of the course in your riding.
Will attendance instantly make you a better rider and mean you won't crash? Of course not, thats a dumb assertion and noone delivering those courses will ever claim that. What they will do is give you something to think about. For many the one thing is that maybe riding the way they have for 10/20/30 years is not actually as shit hot as they thought and there is a better way to do things. A way they will have to work hard on to get right.

Returning riders get picked on quite a lot, with some justification. When you don't use skills for 15-30 years, you lose them. Newsflash, if you don't use skills for a few weeks you lose them, or at the very least you lose your edge with them. Now think of all the riders who put the bikes away for winter, never ride in the rain, only ride once a month, don't practice their emergency braking every week, don't practice how to evade an unexpected obstacle or hazard etc etc etc
Skills are perishable, keep them fresh and up to date, egos are for dead people and you are a long time dead.

[willytheekid]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-FnRVZNDstQU/TXwNwGuFQHI/AAAAAAAAFXg/rACpb4OnklQ/s1600/Picture+5.png


WELL!!....I'm actually too scared to ride presently :yes:


Why?...because I know my own body and skill limits are currently compromised!

...after that drunk fuck! in the 4x4 sideswiped me:facepalm:, Ive been left basically crippled!, even walking hurts!, so after just 10mins of riding now, I am in severe pain, the left arm shuts down, knee gives out, and the body just starts to scream in pain...add on to all that, being overworked in my current role, and left dead tired at the end of every work day...its just a recipe for pure disaster!! (And work is not really into the leather look! lol)

Hence, I haven't ridden the VFR as daily transport for over a full year now :weep: (yes...its killing me on the inside)...but I prefer to GET home to my family each night...rather than risking having my body or focus fail me when I need it the most for the trip home.


...still "trying" to fix the broken body, but until such time, I have deemed myself simply unsafe to ride!...the personal risk has more than doubled due to my injuries limiting my control of the bike and any possible reaction abilities...already had the arm "turn off" mid corner :wacko: (Yeah...rather messy exit from THAT corner lol)


...my body is broken, I accept this...so the bike stays parked up until I can improve....or I know!, I will become another road stat if I stupidly ignore these personal warning signs and loss of ability & control.



Ride Safe Kbers...Know your limits...don't push them:love:



PS....still sneaking out for the odd weekend ride & Wheelie tho :headbang:

[R650R]

To me training gives you options when things go wrong. Say when you are out wide on a turn and you see a tractor going slow, you have more time to react.

I agree that sometimes shit is going to get you but would rather have a good chance to react.



Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...

Did they mention all that on the special course? BTW I'm not dissing training, just its not a cure all and it barely scratches the surface of driving intel that professionals build up due to high mileage.
Most training is going to be dumbed down to be easily digested in a short weekend session and I object to forcing/coercing people it doing it then endangering themselves with a dose of smugness. Yes smugness the next dangerous thing after recklessness...

BTW that being out wide on the corner thing is horseshit except maybe at low speeds. I'd love to see a photograph with the maths and trigonometry proving that a significant safety margin is gained. The ONLY time its a tangible benefit is PERHAPS for police in hgihspeed pursuits where they have a legal reason to use the wrong side of the road to read ahead.
For average joe riding in a LEGAL manner on a public road being another 1.5m to the right on a left hand bend isn't going to give you diddly squat extra vision.
The bigger hazard is colliding with an oncoming vehicle cutting the centreline, why be closer to that hazard when you can eliminate the slow tractor hazard by driving in accordance with the road code to start with.
If you are driving at such a speed to stop withen the vsible distance on a laned road or half that distance on unlaned road then you should NEVER asre end a tractor or even have the need to 'see' further around a blind corner.
A blind corner is only one you have entered TOO FAST, so its utter horsehit for professional trainers to be peddling a solution to a situation you should not be in to start with.

Someone PLKEASE p[rove me wrong with photographic and mathmatecal evidence on this please....

[onearmedbandit]

Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...



Actually that and more is what I got taught to look for on my DD course back in 1990.

[old slider]

Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...

Did they mention all that on the special course? BTW I'm not dissing training, just its not a cure all and it barely scratches the surface of driving intel that professionals build up due to high mileage.
Most training is going to be dumbed down to be easily digested in a short weekend session and I object to forcing/coercing people it doing it then endangering themselves with a dose of smugness. Yes smugness the next dangerous thing after recklessness...

BTW that being out wide on the corner thing is horseshit except maybe at low speeds. I'd love to see a photograph with the maths and trigonometry proving that a significant safety margin is gained. The ONLY time its a tangible benefit is PERHAPS for police in hgihspeed pursuits where they have a legal reason to use the wrong side of the road to read ahead.
For average joe riding in a LEGAL manner on a public road being another 1.5m to the right on a left hand bend isn't going to give you diddly squat extra vision.
The bigger hazard is colliding with an oncoming vehicle cutting the centreline, why be closer to that hazard when you can eliminate the slow tractor hazard by driving in accordance with the road code to start with.
If you are driving at such a speed to stop withen the vsible distance on a laned road or half that distance on unlaned road then you should NEVER asre end a tractor or even have the need to 'see' further around a blind corner.
A blind corner is only one you have entered TOO FAST, so its utter horsehit for professional trainers to be peddling a solution to a situation you should not be in to start with.

Someone PLKEASE p[rove me wrong with photographic and mathmatecal evidence on this please....


I have noticed many riders use either the left or the right hand tyre track area on their side of the road, most using the right. My long time reasoning has been that any engine, sumps, diffs etc dripping oil, leaking fuel, etc would most likely be onto that section of the road surface, you know between the axles, any thoughts? personally I try to avoid the centre section on my side of road especially if damp, but I guess leaking brake fluid, wheel cylinders etc could nullify that thinking. lol

[nzspokes]

Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...

Did they mention all that on the special course? BTW I'm not dissing training, just its not a cure all and it barely scratches the surface of driving intel that professionals build up due to high mileage.
Most training is going to be dumbed down to be easily digested in a short weekend session and I object to forcing/coercing people it doing it then endangering themselves with a dose of smugness. Yes smugness the next dangerous thing after recklessness...

BTW that being out wide on the corner thing is horseshit except maybe at low speeds. I'd love to see a photograph with the maths and trigonometry proving that a significant safety margin is gained. The ONLY time its a tangible benefit is PERHAPS for police in hgihspeed pursuits where they have a legal reason to use the wrong side of the road to read ahead.
For average joe riding in a LEGAL manner on a public road being another 1.5m to the right on a left hand bend isn't going to give you diddly squat extra vision.
The bigger hazard is colliding with an oncoming vehicle cutting the centreline, why be closer to that hazard when you can eliminate the slow tractor hazard by driving in accordance with the road code to start with.
If you are driving at such a speed to stop withen the vsible distance on a laned road or half that distance on unlaned road then you should NEVER asre end a tractor or even have the need to 'see' further around a blind corner.
A blind corner is only one you have entered TOO FAST, so its utter horsehit for professional trainers to be peddling a solution to a situation you should not be in to start with.

Someone PLKEASE p[rove me wrong with photographic and mathmatecal evidence on this please....
You have jumped to the wrong end of the stick.

All of what you have mentioned is part of forward observation. As for the DD course, I know it well as my Dad ran courses on it up here. I heard the whole bloody thing every time we went for a drive.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Ulsterkiwi]

Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...

Did they mention all that on the special course? BTW I'm not dissing training, just its not a cure all and it barely scratches the surface of driving intel that professionals build up due to high mileage.
Most training is going to be dumbed down to be easily digested in a short weekend session and I object to forcing/coercing people it doing it then endangering themselves with a dose of smugness. Yes smugness the next dangerous thing after recklessness...

BTW that being out wide on the corner thing is horseshit except maybe at low speeds. I'd love to see a photograph with the maths and trigonometry proving that a significant safety margin is gained. The ONLY time its a tangible benefit is PERHAPS for police in hgihspeed pursuits where they have a legal reason to use the wrong side of the road to read ahead.
For average joe riding in a LEGAL manner on a public road being another 1.5m to the right on a left hand bend isn't going to give you diddly squat extra vision.
The bigger hazard is colliding with an oncoming vehicle cutting the centreline, why be closer to that hazard when you can eliminate the slow tractor hazard by driving in accordance with the road code to start with.
If you are driving at such a speed to stop withen the vsible distance on a laned road or half that distance on unlaned road then you should NEVER asre end a tractor or even have the need to 'see' further around a blind corner.
A blind corner is only one you have entered TOO FAST, so its utter horsehit for professional trainers to be peddling a solution to a situation you should not be in to start with.

Someone PLKEASE p[rove me wrong with photographic and mathmatecal evidence on this please....

I don't know about photos and maths but I call horseshit on your horseshit. Taking a wide line is only part of the story. Taking a wide line is not always the best line for a particular corner. Safety is your top priority, then stability of the bike, then visibility (what YOU can see) If taking the wider line to get a better view compromises your safety then its the wrong line.
The ride forever courses use the Roadcraft system as their basis. In that respect you are absolutely correct that a single day or weekend of training will not a complete rider make and there has to be some variation as to how the content is pitched depending on the riders who turn up on the day. That is simply good teaching practice. So, accepting Ride Forever is not the complete story, it is however a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Otherwise the approach is effectively, "lets not teach ANYTHING unless we can do it all"
Back to Roadcraft, that takes months of practice and mentoring to get right, in some cases years. Its also not an end in and of itself, riding to Roadcraft standard is accepted by those who practice it as a lifelong commitment to learning and improving.
The very first part of the system of Roadcraft involves taking note of just the very things you listed as a series of observations, its called INFORMATION, more simply put, you keep your eyes, ears and nose open and pay attention to what is going on around you, with particular focus on what is ahead, as far ahead as you can see. (lack of forward observation is probably the most significant missing piece in rider/driver skills/practices)
Taking in information will then determine your POSITION. So sometimes you will shift your line to get a better view, hence the wide lines you often see discussed. In selecting the position you also have to then select an appropriate SPEED, a GEAR to control that speed before you finally ACCELERATE away.
lets talk about that position thing for a second, leaving visibility aside. If you position yourself on a wider line for a corner, chances are your entry speed will be slower than if you are closer to the centre line. That means you will be better able to respond to what you do not yet see. It also means that you have the maximum amount of room to lean the bike and carry your entry speed to the apex before accelerating away (this is what bikes do best isn't it?) If you are for example going through a right hand corner and find you need to lean more to take a tightening arc that isn't much fun if your head is hanging over the centre line, taking the wider line allows you to lean more without that happening.
On the left hand bends coming wider means to enter you MUST be going slower, not going in hot and then drifting because you are too fast. If you have to lean more then you do so and that leaning takes you away from oncoming traffic. Again you do not apex too early and instead get to power away from the corner at the most effective point.
Its not racing lines but we aren't on the track are we?
Of course all of this is moot if there are corrugations on the bend, tar bleeds, debris/gravel/shit. Then you select a line to avoid those (safety first remember?) The point is Ride Forever is based on Roadcraft which is a system, the system is flexible enough to cover all scenarios. You cycle through the stages of the system, if something changes (new information) then you reset and begin again. Like anything skillwise that takes practice and lots of it. It also helps if you get feedback on what is working and what isn't.
Honestly you sound like you take being on the road seriously, you are a professional, that makes sense. Your headspace is all about being up to the task. Great! Roadcraft recognises that is appropriate. The system has a manual, the first chapter is all about the psychology of riding/driving.
If the thought of being taught how to suck eggs gives you shivers down your spine, then get in touch with IAM ask for an assessment ride and go show the observer what you can do. I am very confident the experience will be beneficial to you no matter what you decide to do after that.
I could give you plenty of examples of how the system and applying it properly has saved my bacon in any number of potential "oh fuck" moments. IN actual fact I would say riding using the roadcraft system actually significantly reduces the number of those moments. Its not the system that falls over, rather my application of it. There are plenty on this forum with way more knowledge of Roadcraft than me who could do likewise. Bother that, I would suggest go check it out for yourself.

[nzspokes]

I don't know about photos and maths but I call horseshit on your horseshit. Taking a wide line is only part of the story. Taking a wide line is not always the best line for a particular corner. Safety is your top priority, then stability of the bike, then visibility (what YOU can see) If taking the wider line to get a better view compromises your safety then its the wrong line.
The ride forever courses use the Roadcraft system as their basis. In that respect you are absolutely correct that a single day or weekend of training will not a complete rider make and there has to be some variation as to how the content is pitched depending on the riders who turn up on the day. That is simply good teaching practice. So, accepting Ride Forever is not the complete story, it is however a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Otherwise the approach is effectively, "lets not teach ANYTHING unless we can do it all"
Back to Roadcraft, that takes months of practice and mentoring to get right, in some cases years. Its also not an end in and of itself, riding to Roadcraft standard is accepted by those who practice it as a lifelong commitment to learning and improving.
The very first part of the system of Roadcraft involves taking note of just the very things you listed as a series of observations, its called INFORMATION, more simply put, you keep your eyes, ears and nose open and pay attention to what is going on around you, with particular focus on what is ahead, as far ahead as you can see. (lack of forward observation is probably the most significant missing piece in rider/driver skills/practices)
Taking in information will then determine your POSITION. So sometimes you will shift your line to get a better view, hence the wide lines you often see discussed. In selecting the position you also have to then select an appropriate SPEED, a GEAR to control that speed before you finally ACCELERATE away.
lets talk about that position thing for a second, leaving visibility aside. If you position yourself on a wider line for a corner, chances are your entry speed will be slower than if you are closer to the centre line. That means you will be better able to respond to what you do not yet see. It also means that you have the maximum amount of room to lean the bike and carry your entry speed to the apex before accelerating away (this is what bikes do best isn't it?) If you are for example going through a right hand corner and find you need to lean more to take a tightening arc that isn't much fun if your head is hanging over the centre line, taking the wider line allows you to lean more without that happening.
On the left hand bends coming wider means to enter you MUST be going slower, not going in hot and then drifting because you are too fast. If you have to lean more then you do so and that leaning takes you away from oncoming traffic. Again you do not apex too early and instead get to power away from the corner at the most effective point.
Its not racing lines but we aren't on the track are we?
Of course all of this is moot if there are corrugations on the bend, tar bleeds, debris/gravel/shit. Then you select a line to avoid those (safety first remember?) The point is Ride Forever is based on Roadcraft which is a system, the system is flexible enough to cover all scenarios. You cycle through the stages of the system, if something changes (new information) then you reset and begin again. Like anything skillwise that takes practice and lots of it. It also helps if you get feedback on what is working and what isn't.
Honestly you sound like you take being on the road seriously, you are a professional, that makes sense. Your headspace is all about being up to the task. Great! Roadcraft recognises that is appropriate. The system has a manual, the first chapter is all about the psychology of riding/driving.
If the thought of being taught how to suck eggs gives you shivers down your spine, then get in touch with IAM ask for an assessment ride and go show the observer what you can do. I am very confident the experience will be beneficial to you no matter what you decide to do after that.
I could give you plenty of examples of how the system and applying it properly has saved my bacon in any number of potential "oh fuck" moments. IN actual fact I would say riding using the roadcraft system actually significantly reduces the number of those moments. Its not the system that falls over, rather my application of it. There are plenty on this forum with way more knowledge of Roadcraft than me who could do likewise. Bother that, I would suggest go check it out for yourself.
What he said.

Im on an unstable connection so hard to type forever.

I'm always looking out for diesel, way to many truckies overfill and don't put the caps back on properly.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Big Dog]

Considering you are only one reader of many hundreds/thousands who do read my posts I am not going change what topics I post on just because one individual disagrees with my thinking. The fact you did take me off ignore must mean you agreed with me for a time though. If we all agreed with one another dont you think the forum would get real boring?
Please take it as a given that I object to something or all of every one of your posts that I have read and not replied to.
I used to reply believing you were in need of help, even feeling bad when others ganged up on you.
I have however come to the conclusion that either:
A) you are a troll.
B) you are so stubborn good advice will fall on deaf ears (or eyes) if you actually bother to read anyone else's posts at all.
C) you are so conceited as to believe that everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.
D) all of the above.

As such I no longer waste the electrons on you.

One last try... If you believe that nothing has changed, no new techniques developed, no new understanding of physics has occurred in my lifetime (your earlier claim iirc was that you have not learned anything new since before I was born 43 years ago) please try to prove me wrong.
Go to the Ride Forever courses with an open mind. Or are you scared you will learn something?

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[ellipsis]

Or are you scared you will learn something?

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC


...the fear of learning is strong in this subject, methinks...

[MD]

I really do not mean to completely diss the perspective you have expressed here but its a good demonstration of how our misinformed opinions are directing many of our attitudes. The figures say that there are more motorcycles on the road than ever. Your opinion is there are fewer, it is based, by your explanation, on your "being on the roads" and presumably what you see, that is never the whole story is it?
The figures also show that the rate of crashes when compared to the number of riders on the road is decreasing. .

.
No offense taken. I've not bothered to look up any statistics so if you say there are more riders on our roads, I say that's good news. I was only voicing my opinion from personal observation over 42 years of continuous riding. I just don't see as many riders out and about these days. 5, 10 and 15 + years ago on any weekend at Martinborough you would see tons of bikes lined up outside every café. Man the Flying Fish was a fight to find a parking space. Common to have to park around the corner, on the footpath. Now..if you see 2 or 3 bikes at any one Café you get excited by the large gathering. The big herds must have migrated north?

[James Deuce]

No offense taken. I've not bothered to look up any statistics so if you say there are more riders on our roads, I say that's good news. I was only voicing my opinion from personal observation over 42 years of continuous riding. I just don't see as many riders out and about these days. 5, 10 and 15 + years ago on any weekend at Martinborough you would see tons of bikes lined up outside every café. Man the Flying Fish was a fight to find a parking space. Common to have to park around the corner, on the footpath. Now..if you see 2 or 3 bikes at any one Café you get excited by the large gathering. The big herds must have migrated north?
People are using them as transport once more.Weekend rides have died a death due to the people who organised them dying a death. I was only moaning to a workmate last week that I have no one to ride with any more. They've either given up, died, or ride way faster than I'm comfortable doing.

[nzspokes]

People are using them as transport once more.Weekend rides have died a death due to the people who organised them dying a death. I was only moaning to a workmate last week that I have no one to ride with any more. They've either given up, died, or ride way faster than I'm comfortable doing.
I could ride all weekend on the rides that pop up.

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[James Deuce]

I could ride all weekend on the rides that pop up.



I'm desperately pleased for you. You either didn't read what I wrote or are doing your usual lousy attempt at fishing for a response.

If you aren't trolling please direct me to all the Wellington/Wairarapa/Manawatu rides that are being organised for normal people who just want to go for a ride.

[nzspokes]

I'm desperately pleased for you. You either didn't read what I wrote or are doing your usual lousy attempt at fishing for a response.

If you aren't trolling please direct me to all the Wellington/Wairarapa/Manawatu rides that are being organised for normal people who just want to go for a ride.
Try Tinder.

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[James Deuce]

Try Tinder.


They don't like ugly, late middle aged people. The kids on it are so young it borders on paedolphilia.

[nzspokes]

Maybe a lot of guys have given up group riding because of the associated pressure to "keep up"
No, they just don't want to ride with you.

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[nzspokes]

Where did I ever say I wanted to join a group ride?
You cannot keep up.

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[onearmedbandit]

The reason why I am not interested in going to riding school is because all the bad crashes I have been in casued by others or dogs have happened too fast to brake or swerve.

So ergo you have nothing to learn?


The riding school tutors assume there is always time to brake or swerve when others screw up and I am just saying they are wrong.

And you should always assume there is. With that mindset you are more likely to look for 'escape paths' rather than freeze up. And the only way to do that is too assume it every time. Look at it as 'positive thinking' if you will, sure it might not work every time but negative thinking will almost guarantee it never works.

No one is naive enough to think that every accident is completely avoidable, but the attitude and belief that they are will only increase your chances of improving your safety.

[george formby]

Losing the bike on gravel beats having a head on would you not agree.

I absolutely would not agree. I had to take evasive action to avoid a car traveling too quick and taking up most of the gravel road I was enjoying on Boxing day. A fat 230kg+ bike on T30 sport touring tires may not seem ideal to avoid a sideways Nissan coming out of a corner at you on loose gravel, but it was my ride for the day.

It was a non event, I locked the rear briefly, which was helpful, slowed, evaded, and carried on my merry way, probably far less rattled than the driver judging by his expression.:shit:

How, you may ask, did I manage to achieve this incredible feat? And you should be asking if you habitually take evasive action for a hazard which is not actually there.

I will tell you, in confidence. An open mind and a large appetite for improving my knowledge and ability. Oh, and lots of learning and practice. Selfish I know, all about me.

You have mentioned fear a few times in this thread. It's a strange emotion, very powerful, but it is based on events that have not yet happened.
Be a bit more optimistic for 2017.

[FJRider]

Maybe a lot of guys have given up group riding because of the associated pressure to "keep up"

No ... it's more a self preservation thing.The ability (read desire) of some to "Keep up" is only one factor in group rides .. the plain lack of ability of some is evident when they attempt to emulate the faster/skilled riders. And a desire to be (among) the first "there" usually overrides commonsense and consideration for the other riders. Poor overtaking and cornering skills often lead to collisions or rapid evasive outmaneuvers by some innocent (and often less skilled) members of the group. Following too closely is another common issue of some.

Many will not ride in groups unless they know and trust the other riders.

[FJRider]

As I have said before with the accidents I have been in caused by others ...

By "caused by others" do you mean you were in the right or had right of way .. and thus free of danger. So you could then relax and enjoy your ride .. ???

[george formby]

As I have said before with the accidents I have been in caused by others there has not been any time to brake or swerve or suss out an "escape" either to use your terminology. Maybe they need to offer an incentive like 1/2 price registration to get people like me motivated but I have read they are not interested in offering riding school incentives because going to a riding school can make you "over confident".

ACC pay the bulk of Ride Forever fees. We pay pay $50 for a whole day, Bronze, the first level is $25. Go on, be a devil. Take advantage of it, do a day with them and give us some honest, I mean honest, feed back.

[FJRider]

Maybe they need to offer an incentive like 1/2 price registration to get people like me motivated but I have read they are not interested in offering riding school incentives because going to a riding school can make you "over confident".

Your past record of crashes should be motivation enough to look for courses that could help you I would have thought. Not just rider skills training, but discussion on what happened .. and what you could have done/seen prior that ... that might have made it a non event.


Somebody else's fault mentality is head in the sand thinking.

[nzspokes]

Head in the sand thinking is believing there will always be time to avoid another motorists screw up. Believe that at your peril.
So with the amount of crashes you have had, you still don't think you have a problem?

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[Akzle]

. I often wonder why those who do not like my posts waste their time responding.

because you are a FUCKING IDIOT and letting your horseshit stand unchallenged, in a public forum where new or inexperienced riders might not be able to determine it for what it is, is frankly dangerous, and a disservice to road safety (=point of thread)

[Akzle]

.
But I do wonder how many road victims thought processes don't get to enage that far, just fear and panic braking only.....road....

target fixation. and shit. and it's why we now have ABS... apparently teaching people to drive was never going to happen so they just make the vehicles m0ar id10t proof.

fucking queer feeling, having a brake pedal not connected to anything other than a computer to decide how much braking i want... icky.

[Akzle]

But earlier posts I was rubbished for not keeping an eye out for potential dangerous situations and now I have given an example of keeping an eye on a hazard I still get rubbished.

errrr. perhaps because when you identified the hazard (miracles do happen!) you did possibly the exact wrong thing?

[FJRider]

Head in the sand thinking is believing there will always be time to avoid another motorists screw up. Believe that at your peril.

With the "contacts" I've had in the past with other vehicles ... I have afterwards surmised that I should have taken different actions prior to said "contacts ... but made decisions I thought were appropriate. In hindsight they were not.

In such circumstances ... knowing all your options is beneficial in making the correct decision. Many training courses include classroom type training explaining the "what if" situations that riders can find themselves in. This includes things as simple as watching the roadside verges for stray sheep (or dogs) ... not taking right hand blind bends close to (or over) the center line. Even to imagining what the worst thing any vehicle you can see will do ... because as some stage (maybe) they will.

Often by simply increasing the following distance of other vehicles by another second ... can give you more time to react to an issue. Any vehicle within 50 meters ahead or behind you and getting closer can be a threat to you. At some stage ... one of those vehicles will do something stupid/unexpected.

I admit that enough time to avoid ALL contacts is not always possible ... but reducing the damage (or probability) can only help.

[caspernz]

Head in the sand thinking is believing there will always be time to avoid another motorists screw up. Believe that at your peril.

The more positive approach might be to at least try to evade someone else's screw up :facepalm: which requires a bit of training :innocent: might also require an admission that one might not already know it all :shit::blink:

[caseye]

because you are a FUCKING IDIOT and letting your horseshit stand unchallenged, in a public forum where new or inexperienced riders might not be able to determine it for what it is, is frankly dangerous, and a disservice to road safety (=point of thread)

Damn you Akz,thank you for pointing out the blindinglybloody obvious.
This is why even with cassina on ignore I follow what is said in threads where he/she is.
To make absolutely sure there is someone there who DOES challenge their warped and dangerous advice to anyone ( let alone new riders) who might by äccident"(see what I did there?) think he/she could possibly be right.
Agian I see, no time. make it!
Again I see, "someone else's fault"'. No, yours for not keping eyes and ears open! You'd rather be right and DEAD. Than do something pro active that you shouldn't have to do and be ALIVE. fool.
Again I see, "Fear"" yours not anyone elses!
For Gods sake people. See this person for what they are.
Incompetence, offering unacceptably bad advice to new riders and going unchallenged/questioned here in KB is tantamount to allowing people to go out and get killed on the roads, because we didn't bring this idiot to bear.
cassina, do one of two things.

Go to as many riding coures as you can. and maybe, just maybe someone there might get you to understand how to do it all with confidnece and not crash.

Or and this is the option I prefer, just go away and never offer another poor sap bad advice that could and would get them killed on an open road if they followed your school of thought.

By the way a small group of friends, my wife and I have just completed over 1400K's in the last week in the lower North Island and enjoyed evey minute of it in each others company riding in all conditions, weather and traffic.
We enjoyed the experience individually and as a group and I can tell you, we will do it again and we'll happily take anyone else who wants to come with us and as we always do, we'll allow a less confident rider the option to ride in front of our TEC at their comfortable speed, whatever that is, we also quietly offer advice and talk at length about different scenarios we have encountered in a days ride, this occurs in all group rides that I've ever been involved with.
There were 3 Litre plus bikes a 650 an 800 and a 250cc machine and we all had a bloody good time, this is what motorcycling is actually about, riding confidently, carefully,acquiring experience and applying that to your situation, getting to your destination and telling huge bullshits about what you did all day with your mates.

[tri boy]

Good post caseye:msn-wink:
Look, I try to stay out of these threads, as my own riding skill/level is average IMO.
But I did ride my bro i laws crusier today, after doing a bit of work on it for him.

My first reaction/comment to myself was that cruisers don,t respond as quickly to your input/thought approach as I would like.

Which got me thinking, (a rarity I know), What % of accidents involving road registered bikes are actually cruisers.
I'm not slagging the bikes, or those who choose to ride them, just interested.:msn-wink:

[jellywrestler]

My first reaction/comment to myself was that cruisers don,t respond as quickly to your input/thought approach as I would like.



couple that with ageing riders who don't respond as quickly.........

[nzspokes]

Damn you Akz,thank you for pointing out the blindinglybloody obvious.
This is why even with cassina on ignore I follow what is said in threads where he/she is.
To make absolutely sure there is someone there who DOES challenge their warped and dangerous advice to anyone ( let alone new riders) who might by äccident"(see what I did there?) think he/she could possibly be right.
Agian I see, no time. make it!
Again I see, "someone else's fault"'. No, yours for not keping eyes and ears open! You'd rather be right and DEAD. Than do something pro active that you shouldn't have to do and be ALIVE. fool.
Again I see, "Fear"" yours not anyone elses!
For Gods sake people. See this person for what they are.
Incompetence, offering unacceptably bad advice to new riders and going unchallenged/questioned here in KB is tantamount to allowing people to go out and get killed on the roads, because we didn't bring this idiot to bear.
cassina, do one of two things.

Go to as many riding coures as you can. and maybe, just maybe someone there might get you to understand how to do it all with confidnece and not crash.

Or and this is the option I prefer, just go away and never offer another poor sap bad advice that could and would get them killed on an open road if they followed your school of thought.

By the way a small group of friends, my wife and I have just completed over 1400K's in the last week in the lower North Island and enjoyed evey minute of it in each others company riding in all conditions, weather and traffic.
We enjoyed the experience individually and as a group and I can tell you, we will do it again and we'll happily take anyone else who wants to come with us and as we always do, we'll allow a less confident rider the option to ride in front of our TEC at their comfortable speed, whatever that is, we also quietly offer advice and talk at length about different scenarios we have encountered in a days ride, this occurs in all group rides that I've ever been involved with.
There were 3 Litre plus bikes a 650 an 800 and a 250cc machine and we all had a bloody good time, this is what motorcycling is actually about, riding confidently, carefully,acquiring experience and applying that to your situation, getting to your destination and telling huge bullshits about what you did all day with your mates.

Photos or it didnt happen.:cool:

And you are right.

[Blackbird]

couple that with ageing riders who don't respond as quickly.........

Which is why I joined IAM in my early 60's to extend my safe riding career and get rid of the inevitable slide in standards :2thumbsup . Something never regretted: http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2011/11/raising-my-riding-skills-some.html . (Mentioned with extreme reluctance as it will start cassina off again).

He probably won't thank me for it but seeing as it's in the public domain, fellow KiwiBiker member caspernz has written a brilliant blog about his journey to upskill from the viewpoint of an already experienced motorcyclist and what he has got from it. This is his first post: http://robvpnz.blogspot.co.nz/2015/12/my-background-and-why-iam-approach-for.html . Just click on NEWER POST at the bottom of each page for newer posts. I think it clearly illustrates no matter how experienced we are, there is always something new to learn.

[old slider]

couple that with ageing riders who don't respond as quickly.........

They (heavy cruisers vs others) certainly are two different beasts, I do think our reactions can become slower as we age, but I still have pretty good hand speed even if the rest of me can no longer keep up, lol. Riding my 310kg HD cruiser is way different to riding my 190kg W650, although I do ride it mostly like its a Cruiser, just depends on the mood.

The lighter bike is probably quicker than the big cruiser in all facets, well apart from possibly a short sprint. Funnily enough I feel I am more at risk on the lighter bike as I tend to be a little more at ease throwing it around a bit more, when compared to being on the big Lunker where I automatically seem to enter a "no hurry" cruise mode more and tend to be even more cautious on the bendy bits, it the cruiser does only have a max of about 25-30 degrees lean anyways.

[nzspokes]

but I still have pretty good hand speed

Thanks for sharing. :blink:

[old slider]

Thanks for sharing. :blink:

Lol, yep left myself wide open, I should have known better aye, oh shite, did it again.

[Akzle]

the cruiser does only have a max of about 25-30 degrees lean anyways.

give it more coal! who needs lean angle??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEX_TXY5gS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq1lIC96qcQ

[WristTwister]

give it more coal! who needs lean angle??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEX_TXY5gS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq1lIC96qcQ

He must go through a lot of tires, boots, and jeans.

[Akzle]

He must go through a lot of tires, boots, and jeans.

:scratch: i don't understand the question

[Akzle]

Losing the bike on gravel beats having a head on would you not agree.

why THE FUCK would you 'lose the bike" (presumably by overbraking the front, cos you're too thick to lowside it) at sub-hundy? (and what do you think that queue of cars you're now impeding is going to do??)

i will personally pay for you to attend an observation session. your time and the instructors, on the proviso that the results are mine and will be made public here, if only to shut you the fuck up.

[swbarnett]

So you label someone who can not avoid an accident casued by someone else "careless"
Definitely not. What makes someone careless is not taking responsibility for your own skin. There's only one person out there looking after you and that's you. Yes, another party may be at fault, but to turn around afterwards and say "nope, nothing I could've done" is what makes you careless. If you said this you need some training, even if that "training" is just talking to others that have been in a similar situation and come off better than you did.

Every mishap I've had on the road I've asked myself afterwards - "What could I have done to avoid it?". I've yet to be in a situation where I can truthfully say that there was nothing I could've done.

[old slider]

give it more coal! who needs lean angle??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEX_TXY5gS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq1lIC96qcQ


That's impressive, shite I have trouble just getting it off the sidestand, lol

[AllanB]

Who said group rides are not fun:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff9zFSiGR3Y

[swbarnett]

When I say I slow down its not to a crawl but just enough so that if I have to stop suddenly I dont end up dropping my bike.
Are you saying that if you have to do an emergency stop from 100kph you'll drop the bike???


As I have said before shit can happen before you have time to brake or swerve and all those that dont believe that only do so because shit has never happened so quick in situations they have been in.
Have you considered that we don't get into situations where "shit can happen before you have time to brake or swerve" because we've seen the situation develop before that point and already reacted accordingly?

[Daffyd]

Good post caseye:msn-wink:
Look, I try to stay out of these threads, as my own riding skill/level is average IMO.
But I did ride my bro i laws crusier today, after doing a bit of work on it for him.

My first reaction/comment to myself was that cruisers don,t respond as quickly to your input/thought approach as I would like.

Which got me thinking, (a rarity I know), What % of accidents involving road registered bikes are actually cruisers.
I'm not slagging the bikes, or those who choose to ride them, just interested.:msn-wink:

I have, on a number of occasions asked the same question, (albeit in a different way), I think it would be helpful to know what genre/class of bike is involved, but was treated with reactions ranging from ignore to scorn.

[Berries]

I have, on a number of occasions asked the same question, (albeit in a different way), I think it would be helpful to know what genre/class of bike is involved, but was treated with reactions ranging from ignore to scorn.
It is a valid question, you just have to ask the right person and hope they think the same. There is also some work involved because the crash data has some big holes in it. Like it might just list Honda as the bike, or it might be Honda CBR, or Honda CBR900, or Honda 900, or Honda Fireblade etc etc. Someone would need to manually enter the registration numbers to get the true details. And obviously if it is a Honda CR for example there will be no number plate.

And then would it help? All bikes can go too fast in to a left hand corner, cross the centre line and the rider get killed by an oncoming vehicle. The only thing I see is that it can happen at lower speeds on lardy old cruisers perhaps being ridden by lardy old riders.

It might actually be an interesting exercise to look at motorbike loss of control on curve crashes to see if there is commonality between make and model types. I suspect you would get the same result as I posted earlier with Harleys at the top. Is this due to them being agricultural vehicles that can't turn corners, the riders being sunny weather unfit old bastards with white goatees who cannot ride or a reflection of the popularity of the worlds most famous two wheeled marque? The data won't answer that, just continue to stir it up. And unlikely to answer the age old question regarding the Suzuki Boulevard. Why?

[OddDuck]

My 2c...

Finally riding again after the layup and I've been noticing a lot of bikers riding with limited safety gear. No gloves. That's happening a lot. Vest but no jacket... that's happening a bit. And I've already seen my first Harley rider this season with shades and bandanna but no helmet.

Yeah, they do that sometimes. Unfortunately the cop might have had a point about macho culture ( - in SOME biker groups).

[KawasakiKid]

I don't think you will ever get exact details about the type of bike, cruisers sports or whatever so we can only surmise. As for road position and where to start or enter the turn from, there was discussion re entering wide or narrow is better, riding in tyre tracks etc.

Most people crash on the exit of the turn, or at least get into difficulty with the exit, so it makes sense to allow more options on the exit. You only get those options when you enter wide (or late as some say).

As far as training and continual training, even Rossi has a track coach. I think we can all learn every day on a bike. Take courses, see for yourself. If, after taking a training course you don't feel it has helped, then that is sad. The very least it will get you to do, if you listen at all, is to consider the thoughts of others. They may not always be 100% correct, but then you filter what info is best for you. Don't be arrogant about your ability, we all need to improve. I enjoy riding.

Having said that, some advice can be dangerous. People who are not qualified should remain silent. Bad advice can kill

[old slider]

Who said group rides are not fun:




That is brilliant to watch, lol obviously no alcohol is allowed watching that dude wearing the German helmet? throwing it away multiple times with the other fruit cake also wearing a German helmet.

[Berries]

I don't think you will ever get exact details about the type of bike, cruisers sports or whatever so we can only surmise.
See post #117. If I could be arsed I could post those details but I don't think it would add anything to the discussion. It's the rider, not the bike IMHO.

[KawasakiKid]

See post #117. If I could be arsed I could post those details but I don't think it would add anything to the discussion. It's the rider, not the bike IMHO.

Saw that, presume they are the deaths ??? means very little in the big scheme of things. To get a pattern, you need data on all crashes, injury or not. Many will not even be reported

[FJRider]

Maybe crusiers should be banned from NZ roads due to their inability to handle tight NZ bends.

Consider ... when the number of Cruisers on the road and the number of deaths of riders on this style of motorcycle are compared ... your claims seem somewhat exaggerated ...

[FJRider]

Saw that, presume they are the deaths ??? means very little in the big scheme of things. To get a pattern, you need data on all crashes, injury or not. Many will not even be reported

Remember ... the link provided in the first post of this thread ... was for the year of 2015.

[R650R]

As if things couldn't get worse http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/88031395/Cycling-deaths-on-New-Zealand-roads-at-25-year-low-initial-figures-show

The damn lycra brigade have out shone us....

So what are they doing different??? No ACC leveis and ytrainign course for them anway.....

[Berries]

Saw that, presume they are the deaths ???
Yes, as per the thread and the question I was replying to.


means very little in the big scheme of things. To get a pattern, you need data on all crashes, injury or not. Many will not even be reported
Well, we are knackered if people want to know how many unreported crashes there were and what bikes were involved. Somewhere in the bowels of KB are some more detailed posts I made on the reported crash data for motorbikes. Will post a link if I can find it.

Here's one. Posts 98 and 155 on this thread have a bit more info on 2015 fatal and serious injury crashes - https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178507-You-pricks-are-costing-us-taxpayers-too-much-money?p=1130975089#post1130975089

I did have the full list of bikes involved somewhere as well.

[KawasakiKid]

Yes, as per the thread and the question I was replying to.


Well, we are knackered if people want to know how many unreported crashes there were and what bikes were involved. Somewhere in the bowels of KB are some more detailed posts I made on the reported crash data for motorbikes. Will post a link if I can find it.

Here's one. Posts 98 and 155 on this thread have a bit more info on 2015 fatal and serious injury crashes - https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178507-You-pricks-are-costing-us-taxpayers-too-much-money?p=1130975089#post1130975089

I did have the full list of bikes involved somewhere as well.

Don't go to trouble on my behalf, I have no interest in the bike variation. I was merely suggesting to be any use at all, statistics need to be as complete as possible.

It's mainly about training riders, you will never succeed in training non riders to have full awareness of motorcycles

[swbarnett]

As if things couldn't get worse http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/88031395/Cycling-deaths-on-New-Zealand-roads-at-25-year-low-initial-figures-show

The damn lycra brigade have out shone us....

So what are they doing different???
For one thing they're getting copious cycleways thrown at them (in the Auckland CBD at least) because TPTB have understandably given up trying (not that they ever really did) to get car drivers to respect the right of a cyclist to use the road.

[pritch]

Often if I have no traffic in front of me with a lot of traffic coming towards I will slow down and ride as much to the left as possible in case someone trys an overtake.

Like others I may regret responding. Again, like others, I took you off ignore, but this thread leads me to think that will be very temporary. Having read this far I don't recall anything you've said that actually made sense.

The basic rule of road placement is "dominate your lane". If you don't do that you are inviting overtakes from oncoming as well as following traffic. As various potential threats appear you should change position, but then you return to the dominant position. What you are espousing is downright dangerous.

On banning Harleys, I have no expertise, I've never ridden one. Although I have ridden metric cruisers. Like (almost) everyone else though, I do know that they lack cornering clearance so I'd have to adjust my riding style.

On returning riders, a woman with whom I worked told me that her husband had just bought a bike after a break of many years, a metric cruiser. I asked her if he might like to read one of the books in my small library of riding related texts.

"No thanks he'll work it out for himself."

Couple of weeks later I asked how he was doing.

"He crashed"

"What happened?"

"A dog ran out."

Now there could be several reasons why he crashed when most others wouldn't, but I still feel that a book may have helped. Even if you know quite a lot, in the event of some sudden drama on the road you get about a third of a second to decide what you are going to do. Best not be trying to remember something from thirty years ago.

It isn't about fear. It's about risk assessment and risk management. Many people have no grasp of these concepts though, f'rinstance there are smokers who worry about terrorism.

You commented that it didn't matter if only one person disagreed with your posts. I'd suggest that the amount of red by your name indicates that he was not alone?

Happy New Year :drinkup:

[AllanB]

A returning rider crashed. A dog ran out his wife says ...... I'd bet a craft beer that there was not a dog but it was a good excuse to tell the wife .....


What cock would suggest banning cruisers (HD's) ? Fucks sake. Real world please people.

[pritch]

A returning rider crashed. A dog ran out his wife says ...... I'd bet a craft beer that there was not a dog but it was a good excuse to tell the wife .....

What cock would suggest banning cruisers (HD's) ? Fucks sake. Real world please people.

On the dog, I was not that cynical, but on reflection you may well be right.

On who would ban Harleys? One guess. 'Real world' may be unexplored territory in the case of that individual. :whistle:

[russd7]

It is a valid question, you just have to ask the right person and hope they think the same. There is also some work involved because the crash data has some big holes in it. Like it might just list Honda as the bike, or it might be Honda CBR, or Honda CBR900, or Honda 900, or Honda Fireblade etc etc. Someone would need to manually enter the registration numbers to get the true details. And obviously if it is a Honda CR for example there will be no number plate.

And then would it help? All bikes can go too fast in to a left hand corner, cross the centre line and the rider get killed by an oncoming vehicle. The only thing I see is that it can happen at lower speeds on lardy old cruisers perhaps being ridden by lardy old riders.

It might actually be an interesting exercise to look at motorbike loss of control on curve crashes to see if there is commonality between make and model types. I suspect you would get the same result as I posted earlier with Harleys at the top. Is this due to them being agricultural vehicles that can't turn corners, the riders being sunny weather unfit old bastards with white goatees who cannot ride or a reflection of the popularity of the worlds most famous two wheeled marque? The data won't answer that, just continue to stir it up. And unlikely to answer the age old question regarding the Suzuki Boulevard. Why?
you might find that harleys fare badly due more to the fact that mister mid lifer goes out and buys a big cruiser (ie harley) after not having ridden a bike for 30 yr or more rather than the fact that "harley's don't go round corners", any bike can and will corner at speed with a confident and competent pilot.

i bought a goldwing for two reasons, A: for comfort for the missus and B: in an effort to slow me down before i lose my licence, ok it doesn't corner as quick as the zzr or the latest of sports bikes but i also don't get left behind or hold many people up on it either, its as akzle said earlier, just gotta give it some more coal.

[AllanB]

As if things couldn't get worse http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/88031395/Cycling-deaths-on-New-Zealand-roads-at-25-year-low-initial-figures-show

The damn lycra brigade have out shone us....

So what are they doing different??? No ACC leveis and ytrainign course for them anway.....


They don't count - fuckers don't pay rego and associated ACC fees to ride a bicycle. Indeed one could then argue that they may cost the taxpayer MORE than a motorcyclist as ignoring deaths (sadness), there are no doubt a shit load of cycle injuries and not one rider contributes directly to ACC .......

I'd like to see those wanky, Lycra clad group riders wearing number plates so I can report the ignorant fuckers.

I just don't get it - most of the fuckers are my age (early 50's) but pull on their vege and bean exposing (or lack of) lycra suits then ride their carbon cycles like ignorant dumb fucks .....

Hmmmm, maybe they are the ones doing the same on alternative weekends pulling on leathers and helmet .....

[Akzle]

cycle injuries and not one rider contributes directly to ACC .......
but they have jobs, and cars too, so they DO pay acc.


I'd like to see those wanky, Lycra clad group riders wearing number plates so I can report the ignorant fuckers.

i'd like to see them lined up and shot.
the road is no place for faggotry, and cycling is a tube of KY and black joey short of utter fagotry.

[jonbuoy]

Like others I may regret responding. Again, like others, I took you off ignore, but this thread leads me to think that will be very temporary. Having read this far I don't recall anything you've said that actually made sense.

The basic rule of road placement is "dominate your lane". If you don't do that you are inviting overtakes from oncoming as well as following traffic. As various potential threats appear you should change position, but then you return to the dominant position. What you are espousing is downright dangerous.

On banning Harleys, I have no expertise, I've never ridden one. Although I have ridden metric cruisers. Like (almost) everyone else though, I do know that they lack cornering clearance so I'd have to adjust my riding style.

On returning riders, a woman with whom I worked told me that her husband had just bought a bike after a break of many years, a metric cruiser. I asked her if he might like to read one of the books in my small library of riding related texts.

"No thanks he'll work it out for himself."

Couple of weeks later I asked how he was doing.

"He crashed"

"What happened?"

"A dog ran out."

Now there could be several reasons why he crashed when most others wouldn't, but I still feel that a book may have helped. Even if you know quite a lot, in the event of some sudden drama on the road you get about a third of a second to decide what you are going to do. Best not be trying to remember something from thirty years ago.

It isn't about fear. It's about risk assessment and risk management. Many people have no grasp of these concepts though, f'rinstance there are smokers who worry about terrorism.

You commented that it didn't matter if only one person disagreed with your posts. I'd suggest that the amount of red by your name indicates that he was not alone?

Happy New Year :drinkup:

If you can´t swallow your pride and accept that you don´t know everything you shouldn't be riding or driving on the roads, top racers pick new techniques up from each other, Police forces around the world share high speed training tips.

[george formby]

If you can´t swallow your pride and accept that you don´t know everything you shouldn't be riding or driving on the roads, top racers pick new techniques up from each other, Police forces around the world share high speed training tips.

Nice. An attitude of constant improvement rather than plain, old, attitude.

Speaking of which. Did the vid of the members filtering through the roadworks and collecting a cone make it to this thread?

In those immortal words. "Some men, you just can't reach."

[awayatc]

Ahhh, I think It would be more interesting to get cassina evaluated by "other" professionals :killingme(Lets not waste poor Rastiscats time....hes just a riding instructor!, and he is already WELL aware of cassinas...errr...issues!:scratch:)

https://i.imgflip.com/kn3x8.jpg
is ok cassina...we can spot our own! :D

Casino and the likes make me re-visit if I should still
wave at other bikers on the road......

[george formby]

Casino and the likes make me re-visit if I should still
wave at other bikers on the road......

:2thumbsup Some of the riding I see has me thinking about more appropriate gestures. What would be the best way to indicate to another rider - "get back on your side of the road you habitual fuck knuckle"?

[AllanB]

but they have jobs, and cars too, so they DO pay acc.


Not 'user pays' though.


I have a job, cars, trailer but still pay motorcycle ACC as well.


Maybe they should deduce what sexuality has the highest risk of early health conditions and ACC then higher ........

Or sports .....

Or pay a ACC levy each time you go swimming to the beach.

Hmm - I'm getting into la-la-land now.

Or am I?

[Moi]

:2thumbsup Some of the riding I see has me thinking about more appropriate gestures. What would be the best way to indicate to another rider - "get back on your side of the road you habitual fuck knuckle"?

This?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Vespa_militare2.JPG/300px-Vespa_militare2.JPG

On a more serious note: good to see some police are being proactive...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11777349

[Akzle]

Not 'user pays' though.


which acc was never intended to be.

you're talking about jewsurance.

[James Deuce]

Casino and the likes make me re-visit if I should still
wave at other bikers on the road......
She's why I finally stopped.

[Akzle]

If you think riding to the left when a lot of cars are coming the other way is dangerous I think centre line hugging that a lot of riders do is dangerous.
well, science would be against you, being that "other riders" dont crash a dozen times.

also, if you deign to read, no-one suggested "centre line hugging"


Good luck if you think reading a book will save you and I would have read one too if shit had happened to me as slow as they say in your book.
i'm pretty sure it's you that's slow


Unlike you my sympathies go out to the mate of yours that hit the dog as I have been there myself and unless you have too you will never understand.

yeah you've been there. repeatedly.

just lets confirm:
you're surprised that people who rack up hundreds of thousands of kilometers more than you, ride into shit less than you?

or that you're really unlucky?

going to take me up on that offer of a professional assessment?

[awayatc]

If there were instructions on how to breathe she'd be dead a long time...

[Berries]

It's funny. On some long straights with lots of oncoming traffic behind a slow vehicle and nothing behind me I will often try and ride to the left of the lane to allow/invite people to overtake towards me. Always good to get a wave from a car driver.

[Berries]

you might find that harleys fare badly due more to the fact that mister mid lifer goes out and buys a big cruiser (ie harley) after not having ridden a bike for 30 yr or more rather than the fact that "harley's don't go round corners", any bike can and will corner at speed with a confident and competent pilot.
As much as anything it is a numbers game. At weekends around here the number of sports bikes on the road are outnumbered by Harleys so it is not hard to accept they would have a higher crash involvement. For many they would appear to be a a leisure activity which means irregular use and thus rusty skills so if the shit does hit the fan, say a dog runs out, the rider is less well equipped to get away with it. Any brand or type of bike can fall in to this category, it just seems there are more HD's on the road with the branded rider living the dream.

How old are you when a mid life crisis hits anyway? Looking at some of the santa beards that seem to come connected with the piss pot helmets that are worn on these motorsickles it would appear more an end of life crisis. Which brings us right back to the point of the thread.

[pritch]

Good luck if you think reading a book will save you and I would have read one too if shit had happened to me as slow as they say in your book. Unlike you my sympathies go out to the mate of yours that hit the dog as I have been there myself and unless you have too you will never understand.

Well learning by reading books is less painful than learning by crashing. As someone already commented, experience usually comes just after you needed it.

I didn't read "a book", I have about forty of them. There are race annuals and rider biographies but maybe fifteen or so relate to riding skills. There is a lot of knowledge in those books and it doesn't all stick so sometimes I revisit them. There would be more books but over the years I have given some away to new riders.

You are having trouble with comprehension again. I did not say anyone hit a dog. "A dog ran out." I have no idea whether he hit the dog, fell off trying to avoid the dog, or if indeed the dog was fictional as someone else suggested.

I first learned to ride in 1959, since then a number of dogs "ran out". So far I've managed to avoid them. (Fingers crossed.) I do know though that you are supposed to release the brake before impact, although hopefully I will not need to use that knowledge.

This morning I came across something on rider safety by Nick Ienatch and he specifically mentions situational awareness giving you more time. If you are riding along in your own cozy inattentive little bubble though, things will seem to happen very quickly. I'll post the item in another thread if I can find it, for the benefit of people who can actually read.

[ellipsis]

...Cassina is nothing more than ignorant and probably a danger to other road users...trying to talk sense to her is a waste of time...she is every bit as dangerous as the clowns who strive to keep up with the lead riders in a group and she has obviously never ever learned a thing about riding skills or her own inadequacies in life...stop feeding it and it may just fuck off...I doubt it though, because like the petulant child, she must keep talking to just prove that she is still here...if she carries on with her riding style she may just become a statistic herself, but the sick laws of life generally mean the fucks who cause the shit usually get away with it...blindness cannot be cured...

[nzspokes]

At a guess the average street is 5 to 6m wide. A dog side on would be no more than 1m wide and a motorcycle about 800mm wide.

Look at it that way and its not easy to hit the dog unless you have target fixation.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[george formby]

Thats good to hear your books have saved you from the dogs. You could have just got lucky too. The technical details of what exactly happened with the dog crash you stated are actually irreleavant with respect to the point I was trying to make with my experience in that sort of accident about things happening sometimes too fast to do anything.

On occasion things do happen too fast to be avoided. I've collected a couple of decent rocks on me scone, flung up by oncoming vehicles. I did have time to react, they got me on the top of the helmet not the visor. Considering my speed and the speed of the rock chucking vehicle, said rock would be doing well over 100kmh over a distance of a few meters.

Thinking about your dog dismount, you either rode into it or it ran into you.

In the second scenario, a dog blind siding you and knocking your front wheel out would give very little reaction time. Apparently we can register and react to something in a 3rd of a second, that reaction may not be enough to save our bacon but we can make a decision and respond in that short time. Having a dog run up from behind and collect you would be a bastard thing.

In the first scenario, a dog running out ahead of you, in sight, I have to consider the width of the road, the speed of the motorcycle and the speed of the dog. I should also consider our evolutionary trait of noticing movement almost instantly. The only dog I can think of that could get from the roadside to the bikes position on the road in a 3rd of a second or so would be a whippet with a rocket up it's arse. In this scenario if you believe that their was no time to react at all then you could not have seen the dog until you hit it. You may well have been frozen and fixated by the sight of a whippet with a rocket up it's arse, I guess I would be, too.:eek5:

I'm with Axolotl and have already posted that I would love to see the result of a days assessment with you. Even in your own words.

[Blackbird]

I'm with Axolotl and have already posted that I would love to see the result of a days assessment with you. Even in your own words.

IAM does a full initial assessment covering motorway, town and country environments at no charge and there's a branch in Chch but given cassina's marathon past Roadcraft rant, hell is likely to freeze over first :brick:

[AllanB]

At a guess the average street is 5 to 6m wide. A dog side on would be no more than 1m wide and a motorcycle about 800mm wide.

Look at it that way and its not easy to hit the dog unless you have target fixation.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

From my experience with dozens of dogs running at my bikes yapping away over the years, you'd really need to focus on actually hitting one! Ride on - ignore the fucker, everyone has backed off or run out of steam in the chase.

I did once have a cat go through one side of a front wheel and out the other in a maelstrom of fur late one evening.

Never fell off though.

[ellipsis]

You are the ignorant one as you have never seen me ride plus where have I ever stated on here I have crashed into other vehicles as a result of my own fault sport?

...reread my post you thick ignorant cunt...then reread it again ...you thick ignorant cunt...

[nzspokes]

You assumption appears to be that the dog I hit was standing in the middle of the road which was not the case at all as it was running very fast so even if I wanted to target fixate on it there would just be no time.
Dogs do not run that fast. I did not mention which part of the road or footpath you hit it on.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[KawasakiKid]

The dog ran across the road into me if you want to know the technical detail. Some on here appear to think I am the only person to have ever hit an amimal on the road which is far from the case if you look up info on it. Some people hit far bigger animals than I have like cows and horses. I suppose many on here would say they should not be driving if they can not see a cow or a horse on the road.

I crashed about 40 years ago when a dog ran out on the road. I was 'practicing' for a road race the upcoming weekend and was at 100% + in the turn. I avoided the dog but ended up crashing anyway. I wonder if I was at fault, or maybe it was the GOD (dog)

[pritch]

IAM does a full initial assessment covering motorway, town and country environments at no charge and there's a branch in Chch but given cassina's marathon past Roadcraft rant, hell is likely to freeze over first :brick:

Aaaah the famous pet food saga? That was when she went on ignore. The first time?

[Blackbird]

Aaaah the famous pet food saga? That was when she went on ignore. The first time?

That's the one Ron :facepalm:

Likewise :wings: . Morbid fascination made me look what was being said on this thread. There was no temptation to un-ignore one or two others and I really wish I'd resisted temptation in this case :yes:

[Luckylegs]

It could be said maybe that as you were practising for a race you were going too fast to successfuly get around it. Going even faster or slower could have seen you avoid it too. I would not say you were at fault but some on here who have never been in such a situation would say you were.

zero four fuck sake.... NO WORDS, Just no words!!! :brick:

[AllanB]

Another down today in the South Island ........ stats are not looking good.


No mention of a dog being involved - unless it was driving a car.

[Akzle]

You could have just got lucky too.
most people don't rely on luck not to ride in to shit.


with my experience in that sort of accident about things happening sometimes too fast to do anything.
and his point made an incredible woosh as it went straight over your head.


You are the ignorant one as you have never seen me ride
my offer is still up. you seem to be ignoring me now.
i will pay to have you publicly assessed.



In the first scenario, a dog running out ahead of you, in sight, I have to consider the width of the road, the speed of the motorcycle and the speed of the dog.
well i can guess with some confidence the motorcycle was slow and in the left hand wheel track :laugh:


I should also consider our evolutionary trait of noticing movement almost instantly.
i don't think evolution applies to this one...

[FJRider]

You assumption appears to be that the dog I hit was standing in the middle of the road which was not the case at all as it was running very fast so even if I wanted to target fixate on it there would just be no time.

If I saw you coming ... I'd be running bloody fast too. A road is not safe place to be when you're on it ...

[Akzle]

You are the ignorant one as you have never seen me ride plus where have I ever stated on here I have crashed into other vehicles as a result of my own fault sport?

weeeellllll, given how MUCH shit you've crashed into, whose fault is it? or just bad luck?

[Paul in NZ]

Mr Mark Gilbert had this to say....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/88105405/mark-gilbert-zen-and-the-art-of-safe-motorcycle-riding

There are some interesting numbers in there...

[James Deuce]

Mr Mark Gilbert had this to say....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/88105405/mark-gilbert-zen-and-the-art-of-safe-motorcycle-riding

There are some interesting numbers in there...

I don't put the bike in "storage", I ride all year round and while there have always been ways that I could have avoided accidents I've been involved in, I've NEVER had a single vehicle accident while riding a motorcycle, except on the race track and that one time on a diesel slick on the takas that the car following me also fell off on.

I've contacted the Ride Forever trainers repeatedly and have yet to have a call back or a published course happen on the day I've booked it for. Serves me right for living in the sticks I suppose, but I read constantly and practice low speed handling and braking constantly. I'd like to get involved in Gymkhana but suspect I'd end up the local organiser pretty rapidly.

I've read the UK Police Roadcraft manual a couple of times now and it all makes good sense, but presupposes a level of training and capability for other road users that I just don't see in NZ.

The fundamental issue with NZ roads is the almost complete absence of courtesy and respect for another person's life. The problem is systemic. There seems to be a certain level of accepted road fatalities and no creative long-term strategies for decreasing it below the level that is now pretty much governed by the safety features now built into all new vehicles, including motorcycles, like ABS, Traction Control, and stability control.

Most of the motorcyclists I know take ongoing skills development seriously. I don't believe I've met anyone who drives a car who has read a road code since they got their license, let alone learned new observational and operational skills.

NZ's population has doubled since the early 70s but the overall fatality rate is a third of of what it was then and vehicle ownership rates have trebled and congestion has gone through the roof. Motorcycle accident RATES are 50% of what they were in 1989 and there's approximately the same number of registered motorcycles on the road.

The whole thing is the normal negative media beat up, with no examination of the opposing view that fantastic things have been done, truly AMAZING things (ABS that works at full lean -MAGIC) to improve both the enjoyment and survivability of motoring in general.

[FJRider]

The dog ran across the road into me if you want to know the technical detail. Some on here appear to think I am the only person to have ever hit an amimal on the road which is far from the case if you look up info on it. Some people hit far bigger animals than I have like cows and horses. I suppose many on here would say they should not be driving if they can not see a cow or a horse on the road.

So ... you got hit by a suicidal dog ... :lol: But to hit the bigger animals ... you need to get out of the city. So that's probably unlikely to happen.

But you go where you look. Keep looking at the dog and you will hit it. Look instead where you want to go ... changing line to avoid it will usually do more harm than good. Especially if it is a rapid line change mid corner. Dogs will usually avoid actual contact at the last minute ... sheep on the other hand are entirely different story. They attempt to return to the paddock they came out of ... which is not always the side of the road you see them on.

[Ocean1]

Mr Mark Gilbert had this to say....

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/88105405/mark-gilbert-zen-and-the-art-of-safe-motorcycle-riding

There are some interesting numbers in there...

They're the same bullshit numbers any other govt cost center uses to apply political pressure to a leakage of funds. As Jim rightly pointed out the real numbers are dramatically lower than they used to be, and far less useful in blaming motorcyclists for their injuries. I've heard it said that ACC in particular are far more concerned at the income insurance aspect of the issue than the actual health side of the problem. Fuckem, I pay enough tax.

And while I've also read a bunch on the care and feeding of an average motorcyclist I found at least some advice from training sources both lacking in root cause data and difficult to reconcile with my own experience. I'm not unaware of the widespread tendency to consider ones' self the font of all wisdom on any topic of particular interest, but I struggled to get anything but the most simplistic rational behind any specific behavioral recommendation from training material. In actively attempting to employ some of the core advice I also found numerous instances where that advice was a very poor match to my own threat assessment. On several occasions I literally stopped, turned around and re-rode the event in question, several times, just to get a handle on whether the rule or it's application had failed. In short: there's just far too many possible potentially contributing causes to any accident to apply a concise set of rules and expect them to work more than half the time. At best.

The single most valuable contribution to the health of a motorcyclist also represents the most risk: hours on a bike. You can accumulate experience while minimising exposure to other traffic by spending time on a dirt bike, which also dramatically amplifies the number of events requiring corrective control input. But even that only helps reduce the odds of a single vehicle incident on the road. Nothing but hours on the road and eternal vigilance will prepare you for further hrs on the road.

[FJRider]

The single most valuable contribution to the health on a motorcyclist also represents the most risk: hours on a bike. You can accumulate experience while minimising exposure to other traffic by spending time on a dirt bike, which also dramatically amplifies the number of events requiring control input. But even that only helps reduce the odds of a single vehicle incident on the road. Nothing but hours on the road and eternal vigilance will prepare you for further hrs on the road.

It is the riders attitude to the risks ie: "I'm in the right so there is little risk" ... and the "they will get out of my way" .... and the thousand other similar scenarios that occur ... that needs more thought at the time. Some simply refuse to rethink decisions they already made on their intended course of action.

[Ocean1]

It is the riders attitude to the risks ie: "I'm in the right so there is little risk" ... and the "they will get out of my way" .... and the thousand other similar scenarios that occur ... that needs more thought at the time. Some simply refuse to rethink decisions they already made on their intended course of action.

Which illuminates the futility of attempting to meddle in the affairs of Evolution.

Besides, the only training that alters attitudinal issues is illegal outside of the military.

[FJRider]

Your theory would only work if the dog or other animal was stopped in the middle of the road in which case a swerve around may be possible.

Well ... in at least a half dozen times I had a dog on the road ahead of me ... no contact was made with the dog. The dogs did a U turn ...

[FJRider]

The govt needs to make riding and driving school courses compulsory before getting a licence maybe but I have read they do not support this as it could create a feeling of "Overconfidence".

Getting a FULL license does as well. Perhaps the motorcycle license needs more stages ... and many more years to complete ... ;)

[FJRider]

Which illuminates the futility of attempting to meddle in the affairs of Evolution.

Besides, the only training that alters attitudinal issues is illegal outside of the military.

True in both counts .... and many still live only because it's illegal to shoot them ..

[FJRider]

You had time to beep your horn then? In my case there was no time.

Anything approaching me when I'm on the road ... within 50 meters ... gets my attention.

Dogs don't like loud horns ... it pisses them off ...

[FJRider]

Motorcycles in my opinion are actually easier to learn to ride than drive a car so you would have to not be very bright if it took you years to learn to ride one.

At least one of us values your opinion .... :killingme

[Big Dog]

So ... you got hit by a suicidal dog ... [emoji38] But to hit the bigger animals ... you need to get out of the city. So that's probably unlikely to happen.

But you go where you look. Keep looking at the dog and you will hit it. Look instead where you want to go ... changing line to avoid it will usually do more harm than good. Especially if it is a rapid line change mid corner. Dogs will usually avoid actual contact at the last minute ... sheep on the other hand are entirely different story. They attempt to return to the paddock they came out of ... which is not always the side of the road you see them on.
I read a useful bit of info 15 or so years ago that had proved quite helpful for the number of dogs that suddenly appear from driveways etc. Never hit one with this simple tip.

Aim for the tail and stay on the gas or accelerate if you were not already on the gas.
Psychologically a dog is programmed to protect his hind quarters and should turn away if they are aware of your presence at all.
Aim for the front half of the dog and they are pre programmed to stand their ground and may even lunge closer.
Staying on the gas or accelerating is about improving your chances of staying on if you hit the dog.


Given most dogs are less than a metre long (not counting tail) this is a much less significant change than trying to go around and or braking.

If you have a dog try it out around the home. Walk towards your dog from different angles. Any time you are walking toward the front half they should exhibit interest or curiosity... because they are your dog they shouldn't be aggressive. Walk toward the back and they should amble out of the way with a worried or submissive look on their face.

Haven't had to use this advice for a few years, down here there are relatively few roaming dogs... unlike Henderson.

Works pretty well with most small predators such as cats, possums etc.

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