North Korea

[Crasherfromwayback]

Can't help myself what?



332694







































..........................

[Swoop]

The Yanks haven't even batted an eyelid over the ethnic cleansing going on in Myanmar at present with the Rohingya civilians

China's western provinces house a muslim population. They are treated as "lesser" people...
They also get treated in a similar fashion in Burma.

[Akzle]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]332694[

..


or, y'now, like 50:1. she'll be right. (thats civvies:lés terroristes de jour)


http://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2016/01/21/civilian-casualties-iraq-syria-us-war-on-isis-neta-c-crawford

[Katman]

..........................

But, but, but.......

If you don't support bombing the fuck out of innocent civilians, you must support genocide.

[Katman]

FWIW - Those that have a contrary view to mine - I suggest reading what happened in Rwanda in 1994 - That is what can (and does) happen...

Dude, if you're suggesting that America didn't get involved in Rwanda because they didn't want to face the backlash for any collateral damage they might cause, you're more retarded than I ever imagined.

They didn't lift a finger because there was nothing in it for them.

World police? My fucking arse.

[awayatc]

And for those that will quibble about what I mean by Tyranny:

Torture used as part of the judicial and extra-judicial processes
Genocide (either encouraged by, participated by or implicitly allowed by the state)
Imprisonment without due process
Execution without trial and for trivial offences
Revocation of basic rights (such as freedom of expression) under the threat of force

.

FWiw. ....you surely must be aware that the ole US of A is guilty of every single one of above mentioned examples of tyranny. .

So according to you it would be ok to go in and destroy them....
Scary way of "thinking"

[Katman]

...you surely must be aware.....

I think you give him too much credit.

[Crasherfromwayback]

But, but, but.......

If you don't support bombing the fuck out of innocent civilians, you must support genocide.

Yeah. That's what the queer cunt tells me. :crazy: I see Iran launched one this weekend too. Fuck me we're gonna be busy! So many naughty countries to invade right now!!!

[Woodman]

Dude, if you're suggesting that America didn't get involved in Rwanda because they didn't want to face the backlash for any collateral damage they might cause, you're more retarded than I ever imagined.

They didn't lift a finger because there was nothing in it for them.

World police? My fucking arse.

Who does anything if there is nothing in it for them?

[Katman]

Who does anything if there is nothing in it for them?

Clearly not you.

[Woodman]

Clearly not you.

You are correct, but you are evading the question.....again.

[awayatc]

So why is Trump threatening to destroy North Korea then?

What is there in it for them?

Since we have established that nobody does anything unless there is something in it for them....?

[Woodman]

So why is Trump threatening to destroy North Korea then?

What is there in it for them?

Since we have established that nobody does anything unless there is something in it for them....?

Oh I dunno, leverage on trade deals, smug satisfaction, lessening the risk of being nuked.

[awayatc]

Unfortunately everything that is good for the USA is generally Very Very Bad (see what I done there...?) For human kind in general.

We all are increasingly selfish greedy and uncaring... but America trumps the lot ( did it again. ..)

The USA is the single most catastrophic disaster that has happened to this planet thus far....

[Katman]

The USA is the single most catastrophic disaster that has happened to this planet thus far....

Or is it their puppet master?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Who does anything if there is nothing in it for them?

Any decent fucking human.

[Murray]

Let's not forget that Donald Trump (along with two thirds of the American public) supports the use of torture.


Where did you get the 2/3 stat from?


Seriously dude, are you incapable of googling 'how many Americans support the use of torture'?


But it was published by the MSM - and aren't you always telling us that we can't trust what they say?


Waiting for for the Katman answer - Can we trust what MSM say??? Or what Katman say's.

[Katman]

Waiting for for the Katman answer - Can we trust what MSM say??? Or what Katman say's.

Look at you Murray. You go to all that effort of creating a multi-quote post and you still manage to make yourself look silly.

You do realise that Google can direct you to non-MSM content as well, don't you?

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, if you're suggesting that America didn't get involved in Rwanda because they didn't want to face the backlash for any collateral damage they might cause, you're more retarded than I ever imagined.


Wait for it....


They didn't lift a finger because there was nothing in it for them.

Correct...

and whilst you are talking about Oil, resources and strategic locations, there was also nothing in it for them in the way of public appeal. Now, before I continue to the next point (and I assure you, this question is relevant):

What are your thoughts/feelings/opinions (in brief) with the US/UN Involvement in Somalia in 1993 - especially the Battle of Mogadishu?

[Katman]

What are your thoughts/feelings/opinions (in brief) with the US/UN Involvement in Somalia in 1993 - especially the Battle of Mogadishu?

The same Somalia that General Wesley Clark later listed as one of the countries the USA planned to 'take out'?

You should probably take a closer look at the full transcript of that interview too.

You might learn a thing or two.

[TheDemonLord]

FWiw. ....you surely must be aware that the ole US of A is guilty of every single one of above mentioned examples of tyranny. .

So according to you it would be ok to go in and destroy them....
Scary way of "thinking"

Certainly the US has had some shady spots in it's history - but Genocide? Possibly you could consider the Indian wars and some of the actions getting close to a form of Genocide, but I missed the part where the US built gas chambers (Actually they are Showers - Katman told me...) - not to mention most of the actions that could be argued were akin to genocide happened some 150+ years ago

Revocation of basic Rights? Although my Knowledge of the US constitution is spotty at best, they've had the right to free speech enshrined in the Constitution since 1791 (okay I did have to look up the date) and before you bring it up - Jim Crow laws were at the State and local level - never at the federal level

Execution without trial for trivial offences - Unless you want to go far enough back to when you could be hanged for stealing a loaf of bread, with the exceptions of a few isolated instances - I can't remember the last time someone was killed with a Sarin pellet for saying nasty things about the President.

The others - whilst I acknowledge that the US has done them, we need to compare apples with apples - look at what Unit 731 did, look at what the Stasi did, Can you tell me that the US (for all it's ills) is even in the same league as those 2?

[Woodman]

Any decent fucking human.

You are living in a fools paradise......

[Katman]

Certainly the US has had some shady spots in it's history - but Genocide? Possibly you could consider the Indian wars and some of the actions getting close to a form of Genocide, but I missed the part where the US built gas chambers.....

That is quite possibly the most retarded statement you've ever made on here (and you've made plenty to choose from).

Does it only count as genocide if it involves gas chambers?

[Crasherfromwayback]

You are living in a fools paradise......

And you're a simple fuckwit that no doubt voted National thinking you're gonna get rich one day.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Certainly the US has had some shady spots in it's history - but Genocide?


That is quite possibly the most retarded statement you've ever made on here (and you've made plenty to choose from).

Does it only count as genocide if it involves gas chambers?

Wonder if the cunt has ever heard of Napalm?

[Katman]

Wonder if the cunt has ever heard of Napalm?

Heard of it? The fuckwit is probably about to lecture us on it.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Heard of it? The fuckwit is probably about to lecture us on it.

Wish some cunt would give him a nice wee shower in it.

[Woodman]

And you're a simple fuckwit that no doubt voted National thinking you're gonna get rich one day.

I voted National, it was the right choice for me. Presumably you voted for the party that was right for you and made you feel good, or put another way, there was something in it for you.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I voted National, it was the right choice for me. Presumably you voted for the party that was right for you and made you feel good, or put another way, there was something in it for you.

I do actually pity you. A man that cannot do something for fellow man, without expecting something in return...is a very sad cunt indeed. No wonder you voted National, and how easy was that to pick eh?

[TheDemonLord]

The same Somalia that General Wesley Clark later listed as one of the countries the USA planned to 'take out'?

You should probably take a closer look at the full transcript of that interview.

You might learn a thing or two.

Good.

I'm so glad that you are predictable to a T.

So, the reason for my question - barely a year before Rwanda happened - there was the Battle of Mogadishu - where a number of Helicopters were shot down, Delta Force operatives died, Hollywood made a movie etc. etc. For the US it was an embarrassing defeat, wildly unpopular and resulted in the Deaths of American Soldiers.

And now a year later - we have another African country (like Somalia), where there is a UN prescence (like Somalia) with a long history of tribal warfare/civil conflict (like Somalia).

So, Let's now play a little Hypothetical game:

Let's assume that the US did intervene in Rwanda - would people like you be grateful and supportive that the US had just precision bombed a load of villagers, huddling in Mud huts.

As per above - like fuck you would be.

In fact, if they HAD gone in, claiming Genocide - I'd be willing to bet that you'd subscribe wholeheartedly to a Conspiracy theory that says it wasn't really Genocide, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial)

For people like you - you will never accept any action by the US: If they don't act its:


They didn't lift a finger because there was nothing in it for them.

And if they do act:


And there's a far greater risk that America jumping in boots and all will just create yet another clusterfuck.

You've created a perfect Catch 22.

Next up, you've got the moderates, and after Grenada, the first Gulf War, Mogadishu etc. The Moderates would be prattling their same tune "Maybe we should just mind our own business" - which in of itself isn't always a bad thing, but this must be weighed against what is the cost of doing nothing.

There are some excellent lectures that Jordan Peterson does on this subject in terms of analysing archetypal stories - which when boiled down to the simplest form is this:

Society is always in a state of decay, and so Chaos is an ever present threat because of this Decay, all that is needed for Chaos to enter, is for the Wise King to be willfully blind to what he should have been paying attention to.

Rwanda is a perfect, real world example of this - of what happens when Chaos is allowed in due to willfull blindness.
So is the Rise of Hitler
So is the spread of Communism
etc.etc.

(in the remote chance you are interested - one of the lectures that covers this subject is a 2 part lecture he does on the Lion King - which follows the same pattern, there is another one where he talks about the Egyptian myth of Horus, Osiris and Set - which has the same pattern)

Then you've got the last group who for better or worse think that every door should be kicked in and every bad country brought to justice - they are always going to support it, but they are a minority.

So you see - There really was nothing to be gained from intervening - mainly thanks to people like yourself. All economics and resources aside, a War can be 'popular' if it is seen as a just intervention - but as we've explored and determined - no armed intervention by the US is ever Justified - is it Katman?

Even if that means letting Genocide happen - there is NEVER a scenario you would accept where you said "Actually, maybe we should go in and do something"

[TheDemonLord]

That is quite possibly the most retarded statement you've ever made on here (and you've made plenty to choose from).

Does it only count as genocide if it involves gas chambers?

No, it only counts if it is a systematic rounding up and executing people based solely on their race.

[TheDemonLord]

Wonder if the cunt has ever heard of Napalm?

I like Katman's answer the best:


Heard of it? The fuckwit is probably about to lecture us on it.

But as above - indiscriminate use of Weaponary, no matter how barbaric and callous =/= genocide.

[Woodman]

I do actually pity you. A man that cannot do something for fellow man, without expecting something in return...is a very sad cunt indeed. No wonder you voted National, and how easy was that to pick eh?

when did you last do something for a "fellow man" that gave you not one hint of satisfaction whatsoever?

[Katman]

Even if that means letting Genocide happen - there is NEVER a scenario you would accept where you said "Actually, maybe we should go in and do something"

Someone needs to give Indonesia a smack in the fucking nose for their actions in West Papua.

I'm not holding my breath though.

[Crasherfromwayback]

when did you last do something for a "fellow man" that gave you not one hint of satisfaction whatsoever?

I was polite to quite a few rude cunts that came into our shop. Went out of my way to help them, despite them being fucking rude queer cunts. You?

[Katman]

No, it only counts if it is a systematic rounding up and executing people based solely on their race.

Like the American Indians?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Like the American Indians?

Lol. You're wasting your time. He'll do his best to win, by waffling on for a thousand words that could be said in twenty.

[TheDemonLord]

Someone needs to give Indonesia a smack in the fucking nose for their actions in West Papua.

I'm not holding my breath though.

So, you'd support a full US Military strike, with all the associated collateral damage and civilian deaths?

Cause I'm going to call you Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire if you say yes (based on your opposition to every single American armed intervention in the last 150 years)

[Katman]

So, you'd support a full US Military strike, with all the associated collateral damage and civilian deaths?

Where did I say that?

[TheDemonLord]

Like the American Indians?

I'm sure I said some of the actions in the Indian wars came pretty close


but Genocide? Possibly you could consider the Indian wars and some of the actions getting close to a form of Genocide, but I missed the part where the US built gas chambers (Actually they are Showers - Katman told me...) - not to mention most of the actions that could be argued were akin to genocide happened some 150+ years ago

Oh look, I did.

[TheDemonLord]

Lol. You're wasting your time. He'll do his best to win, by waffling on for a thousand words that could be said in twenty.

Actually - I did it in 19.

Just for you.

[Woodman]

I was polite to quite a few rude cunts that came into our shop. Went out of my way to help them, despite them being fucking rude queer cunts. You?

1. Presumably you were being paid to do that.

2. You were working in a profession you enjoy

3.That smug satisfaction you get when you are polite to a rude cunt knowing that they will feel bad for being such a cunt when you were so nice.

[TheDemonLord]

Where did I say that?

That was entirely my point......

[Katman]

That was entirely my point......

What a load of shit.

I'd be happy even just seeing some diplomatic pressure placed on them.

Fuck off with your "full US military strike".

[Crasherfromwayback]

1. Presumably you were being paid to do that.

2. You were working in a profession you enjoy

3.That smug satisfaction you get when you are polite to a rude cunt knowing that they will feel bad for being such a cunt when you were so nice.

Yeah. Funnily enough, I get paid to do my job.

You got me there.

Nothing smug about having to suck it up when dealing with a rude cunt. Nothing that enjoyable about dealing with said cunts either. Luckily for me, I've always been given permission to tell cunts to go fuck themselves and fuck off if they really push my buttons.

30 years...six shops...only around 5 people have ever received that message. The look on their faces is worth all of the other shit I put up with by choice.

[Katman]

Luckily for me, I've always been given permission to tell cunts to go fuck themselves and fuck off if they really push my buttons.

Same here.

I've probably done it more than you though.

[Woodman]

I take the stance that ignorant angry assholes have pretty bad lives so having a bit of empathy works better and it doesn't give them the satisfaction of having the fight that they wanted.

[TheDemonLord]

What a load of shit.

I'd be happy even just seeing some diplomatic pressure placed on them at least.

Fuck off with your "full US military strike".

The entire point was to demonstrate that you would never agree with a full US Military Strike regardless of how mild or how severe the situation is - and you repeatedly prove my point.

How do you know there isn't diplomatic pressure being placed on them?

Has Uncle Vlad not called you to personally update you with all the inner workings of Global Politics again?

[Katman]

The entire point was to demonstrate that you would never agree with a full US Military Strike.....

Maybe I'm just not as easily titilated as you.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I take the stance that ignorant angry assholes have pretty bad lives so having a bit of empathy works better and it doesn't give them the satisfaction of having the fight that they wanted.

How does that fit in with you thinking we should invade/bomb the shit out of NK?

[Crasherfromwayback]

How do you know there isn't diplomatic pressure being placed on them?

Has Uncle Vlad not called you to personally update you with all the inner workings of Global Politics again?

Blah blah blah blah blah fucking blah. Wipe your mouth with toilet paper.

[Katman]

How do you know there isn't diplomatic pressure being placed on them?

Australia helps train the security forces that are doing the killing for a start.

[TheDemonLord]

Australia helps train the security forces that are doing the killing for a start.

And?

Does that prove or disprove that there is or isn't Diplomatic pressure being placed on them?

[Katman]

And?

Does that prove or disprove that there is or isn't Diplomatic pressure being placed on them?

Are you serious?

[TheDemonLord]

Maybe I'm just not as easily titilated as you.

No, just that there is no amount of Human suffering that will ever make you pick up a Weapon (directly or symbolicly) and stop it.

[TheDemonLord]

Are you serious?

Apparently not - I was thinking of a different conflict - oops!

[Katman]

Apparently not - I was thinking of a different conflict - oops!

Fucking idiot.

[jasonu]

Seriously dude, are you incapable of googling 'how many Americans support the use of torture'?

I'm not the one making grand claims and statements without anything to back it up and now you are trying deflection when asked for some back up proof..............................dude

[Woodman]

How does that fit in with you thinking we should invade/bomb the shit out of NK?

Well its hard to compare myself and an angry person to a superpower and an unstable country. Different scale completely and way more complex.

[awayatc]

No, just that there is no amount of Human suffering that will ever make you pick up a Weapon (directly or symbolicly) and stop it.

Yes there is....always has been, and always will be again.

[Katman]

I'm not the one making grand claims and statements without anything to back it up and now you are trying deflection when asked for some back up proof..............................dude

http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=how+many+americans+support+the+use+of+torture

[jasonu]

http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=how+many+americans+support+the+use+of+torture

I see you cheery picked the link that most supports your view.

[Katman]

I see you cheery picked the link that most supports your view.

I didn't cheery (sic) pick any link.

You're free to read each and every link that google provides. (Or to choose any other search engine you might prefer).

[T.W.R]

So is the Rise of Hitler



Fella you should really research history a bit better before you quote events like this :facepalm:
Cause and effect.....have a good look at what caused the Methamphetamine junkie to rise to the position he ended up in, what the driving force behind the rise of Nazi party was. Have a good look at what caused Japan to do what they did too while you're at it.

If you're bright you'll see a pattern emerging and something that could very well happen presently

This blonde headed multi time bankrupted silver tongued halfwit, even though just a puppet for bigger wankers is just continually provoking & willing something to happen. Shit one of the 1st mandates the idiot put into action was the increase in military spending, all the weapons manufacturers were rubbing their dirty little hands together with glee. The halfwit even revoked a capacity cap on nuclear warheads only just recently as part of his threatening of North Korea.

All he's doing is just ever increasingly giving provocation for the other idiot to strike out and start something irreversible. Least Putin & China have some brains and have said that imposing sanctions wont work because they can see history repeating itself.
As I said way earlier in this thread you cage a animal and keep poking it, it'll eventually break out and have a fucking good go at you. Germany & Japan are perfect examples.

Trump saying "lets make america great again" and wanting to put them back on the top of the pile when it comes to nuclear capacity is a dangerous form of paranoia. Their supposed threats to the US are birds coming home to roost and having someone at the helm that has the diplomacy of a wet fart is trouble waiting to happen

[TheDemonLord]

Fella you should really research history a bit better before you quote events like this :facepalm:
Cause and effect.....have a good look at what caused the Methamphetamine junkie to rise to the position he ended up in, what the driving force behind the rise of Nazi party was. Have a good look at what caused Japan to do what they did too while you're at it.

If you're bright you'll see a pattern emerging and something that could very well happen presently


One Word:

Appeasement.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes there is....always has been, and always will be again.

Okay then - what are they?

What criteria have to be met where it is acceptable to have an armed intervention to another country that has not attacked you?

I'm genuinely curious.

[Voltaire]

If Kim did fire a rocket and it did say hit Guam or anywhere that is a " US Ally", are there any 'safeties" between the nuclear codes and Trump?:eek:

[T.W.R]

One Word:

Appeasement.

Wrong :oi-grr: that was the kicker by Neville Chamberlain that lead to WWII and nothing to do with the rise of the Nazi Party or Hilter's climb to power at the helm of the party.
And there was definitely no appeasement involved in what caused Japan to lash out either. It's actually the total opposite on both accounts.

[TheDemonLord]

Wrong :oi-grr: that was the kicker by Neville Chamberlain that lead to WWII and nothing to do with the rise of the Nazi Party or Hilter's climb to power at the helm of the party.
And there was definitely no appeasement involved in what caused Japan to lash out either. It's actually the total opposite on both accounts.

The we appear to be talking cross-purposes - Appeasement is entirely relevant as a classic case of the Archetypal events of willfull blindness leading to Chaos - When I referenced the Rise of Hitler - I'm talking about when the warning signs were there that he wasn't all he appeared to be (late 1930s).

[T.W.R]

The we appear to be talking cross-purposes - Appeasement is entirely relevant as a classic case of the Archetypal events of willfull blindness leading to Chaos - When I referenced the Rise of Hitler - I'm talking about when the warning signs were there that he wasn't all he appeared to be (late 1930s).

Not really....what I'm trying to point out to you is totally relevant to current events happening between the two halfwits and your pointing out appeasement is relevant in the fact that in reference to WWII & the Nazis was a action too late, though an action by Chamberlain well after the Nazis had risen to power and Hitler had jumped to the helm :yes:

Both instances of Germany & Japan doing what they did were the result of harsh treatment through the Treaty of Versailles for the Germans and the Convention of Kanagawa for the Japanese; actually funnily enough both prompted by the yanks :shutup:
It's being reflected now but the only difference is trump is itching for a fight :yes:

[TheDemonLord]

Not really....what I'm trying to point out to you is totally relevant to current events happening between the two halfwits and your pointing out appeasement is relevant in the fact that in reference to WWII & the Nazis was a action too late, though an action by Chamberlain well after the Nazis had risen to power and Hitler had jumped to the helm :yes:

Both instances of Germany & Japan doing what they did were the result of harsh treatment through the Treaty of Versailles for the Germans and the Convention of Kanagawa for the Japanese; actually funnily enough both prompted by the yanks :shutup:
It's being reflected now but the only difference is trump is itching for a fight :yes:

I see your point, tis interesting - and I think it's very fair to say that there were many factors (as you reference) that aided such a rise, but with Germany at least - they were not in a position militarily to threaten the British Empire in the early 1930s - and this was when the warning signs were there.

from 1935-1939, regardless of the causal factors that got them to that point (which you are referencing, but I'm not arguing your interpretation), Willfull blindness (appeasement) allowed Chaos to enter.

Now, in so far as Trump vs NK - I think your assessment is ignoring a few salient points, which summarised are:

Every other US president has let NK get to the point they are in now:

Nuclear armed, with a delivery system and a young, impulsive psychopath, whose 'advisors' are sycophantic yesmen (through no fault of their own mind)
Who has been raised in a completely ideologically indoctrinated country.

At least his father knew of a time before the hell-hole they created.

[oldrider]

It's not so much Trump he is only doing as he is told and being used as a scapegoat - look beyond him, at who he really works for, for why and what? :rolleyes: . :cool: dudes!

[T.W.R]

I see your point, tis interesting - and I think it's very fair to say that there were many factors (as you reference) that aided such a rise, but with Germany at least - they were not in a position militarily to threaten the British Empire in the early 1930s - and this was when the warning signs were there.

from 1935-1939, regardless of the causal factors that got them to that point (which you are referencing, but I'm not arguing your interpretation), Willfull blindness (appeasement) allowed Chaos to enter.


You should really dig a bit deeper about things.
Germany or more a German scientist Braun was developing the idea of rockets for space in the 20s, the German Military adopted the idea in 1931 a couple of years before Hitler became chancellor and their weapons technology was well in advance of anyone else by the time WWII started. Even though they weren't used till late in the war the VI & VII rockets were the 1st intercontinental missiles the world had seen. The VII was the grandfather design of the scud missile (that should give you idea of how advanced it was), even NASA adopted the design for some time with their development ideas.
The Germans were the masters of mechanised warfare that's why they did so much damage in very short time and that development didn't happen on a overnight think tank it was well orchestrated & refined over a long time.

Casual factors :laugh: what fucking planet are you on? the country was crippled by what had been imposed on them after WWI and the secondary punch inflicted by the depression as well. the foundation of the Nazi party stemmed from actual standard run of the mill blue collar workers who were desperate, it only morphed into the rabid dog with the psychopath and his delusions in its future years. The appeasement as I said was an action too late, the chaos had already begun...the dog was on a vendetta.

This current shit could easily head a similar direction

[oldrider]

You should really dig a bit deeper about things.
Germany or more a German scientist Braun was developing the idea of rockets for space in the 20s, the German Military adopted the idea in 1931 a couple of years before Hitler became chancellor and their weapons technology was well in advance of anyone else by the time WWII started. Even though they weren't used till late in the war the VI & VII rockets were the 1st intercontinental missiles the world had seen. The VII was the grandfather design of the scud missile (that should give you idea of how advanced it was), even NASA adopted the design for some time with their development ideas.
The Germans were the masters of mechanised warfare that's why they did so much damage in very short time and that development didn't happen on a overnight think tank it was well orchestrated & refined over a long time.

Casual factors :laugh: what fucking planet are you on? the country was crippled by what had been imposed on them after WWI and the secondary punch inflicted by the depression as well. the foundation of the Nazi party stemmed from actual standard run of the mill blue collar workers who were desperate, it only morphed into the rabid dog with the psychopath and his delusions in its future years. The appeasement as I said was an action too late, the chaos had already begun...the dog was on a vendetta.

This current shit could easily head a similar direction

Not to forget that "Judea Declares War on Germany" on March 24, 1933 well before WW2. this had a profound effect on Germany!

Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_boycott_of_1933 There is much more (suppressed?) information available on this subject. :corn:

[pritch]

Would you be happy standing on the side lines watching Genocides, Barbaric Civil wars, flagrant Human rights violations by totalitarian despots?



Only if they've got a lot of oil. Like Saudi Arabia. :whistle:

[T.W.R]

Not to forget that "Judea Declares War on Germany" on March 24, 1933 well before WW2. this had a profound effect on Germany!

Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Nazi_boycott_of_1933 There is much more (suppressed?) information available on this subject. :corn:

Bit slow off the mark John :msn-wink: that all transpired after the rot had set in, though good of you to use the heading the British press used to sensationalise what was taking place and yet again an act provoked by American Jews to activate awareness :niceone:

[Swoop]

Correct. The cunts were doing it in our hood, and no sign of an invasion.
The world forgets the terrorist actions of the French State (not a "revolutionary" group, either) in New Zealand.
All of the superpowers went rather silent.


Neville Chamberlain.
Now there is a classic dickhead.
Hops out of a plane waving a sheet of paper declaring "peace in our time", then declares war on the biggest military power on the planet and immediately resigns then fucks off into obscurity.

[James Deuce]

You should really dig a bit deeper about things.
Germany or more a German scientist Braun was developing the idea of rockets for space in the 20s, the German Military adopted the idea in 1931 a couple of years before Hitler became chancellor and their weapons technology was well in advance of anyone else by the time WWII started. Even though they weren't used till late in the war the VI & VII rockets were the 1st intercontinental missiles the world had seen. The VII was the grandfather design of the scud missile (that should give you idea of how advanced it was), even NASA adopted the design for some time with their development ideas.
The Germans were the masters of mechanised warfare that's why they did so much damage in very short time and that development didn't happen on a overnight think tank it was well orchestrated & refined over a long time.

Casual factors :laugh: what fucking planet are you on? the country was crippled by what had been imposed on them after WWI and the secondary punch inflicted by the depression as well. the foundation of the Nazi party stemmed from actual standard run of the mill blue collar workers who were desperate, it only morphed into the rabid dog with the psychopath and his delusions in its future years. The appeasement as I said was an action too late, the chaos had already begun...the dog was on a vendetta.

This current shit could easily head a similar direction

The V1 is more correctly described as a barely-guided cruise missile and the V2 a medium range ballistic missile. Neither were Inter-continental in nature. Because we live in the middle of nowhere, it's a bit difficult to grok that the distance between northern France where the V1 launch sites were to start with and London is a bit like Auckland to Hamilton.

Russia fired a V2 at the moon and actually hit it. That was probably the V2's greatest moment, but we only hear about comparatively timid efforts made in the US. Tsiolkovsky was a better rocket engineer than von Braun but had to fight hard for every resource, rather than the never-ending stream of $6000 toilets and $800 hammers the US military-led space programme got to play with up until people got bored with the moon landings.

I agree with your analysis of the mood in Germany prior to 1933 too. All Hitler had to do as chancellor was borrow enough money to get an industrial programme underway to make it look like he'd delivered on his campaign promises. Then people didn't think all that hard about the wilder extremes of policy that began to happen once Hindenburg died, so logn as they weren't affected directly.

[TheDemonLord]

You should really dig a bit deeper about things.
Germany or more a German scientist Braun was developing the idea of rockets for space in the 20s, the German Military adopted the idea in 1931 a couple of years before Hitler became chancellor and their weapons technology was well in advance of anyone else by the time WWII started. Even though they weren't used till late in the war the VI & VII rockets were the 1st intercontinental missiles the world had seen. The VII was the grandfather design of the scud missile (that should give you idea of how advanced it was), even NASA adopted the design for some time with their development ideas.

"This proves our germans were better than the Russian's germans"

V1 and V2 were massive leaps in technology - but they didn't win a war, did they? Case in point the T34 tank vs the Tiger and Panther - arguably the Tiger and the Panther were better tanks, but weren't able to be produced in enough numbers to impact the outcome.

The Bismark and Tirpitz - The Gneisnau and Scharnhost - All very powerful Battleships, but again, that is 4 vs the entire Royal Navy (which had something like 20+ Battleship/Battlecruisers I think)

My point being that the Advanced weaponary is good, but you need it in sufficient quantities to effect the battle - as you say, too little, too late.


The Germans were the masters of mechanised warfare that's why they did so much damage in very short time and that development didn't happen on a overnight think tank it was well orchestrated & refined over a long time.

For sure - but the major rebuilding of the Wehrmacht started around 1935...


Casual factors :laugh: what fucking planet are you on? the country was crippled by what had been imposed on them after WWI and the secondary punch inflicted by the depression as well. the foundation of the Nazi party stemmed from actual standard run of the mill blue collar workers who were desperate, it only morphed into the rabid dog with the psychopath and his delusions in its future years. The appeasement as I said was an action too late, the chaos had already begun...the dog was on a vendetta.




it only morphed into the rabid dog with the psychopath and his delusions in its future years.

Exactly - and up until that point, it could have been saved - it was really post 1935, when Germany began re-building it's military, when it REALLY became a threat.

If WW2 had started in 1935, it wouldn't have been WW2, it probably would have barely lasted a year, I seem to remember a quote by Hitler himself saying that if he was to start a War in Europe, he wanted 10 more years to build up a fleet to rival and challenge the Royal Navy.


This current shit could easily head a similar direction

Tis a risk to be sure - but again - before NK had Rhetoric only, now they have Rhetoric and an ability to deliver a Nuclear weapon

[James Deuce]

"This proves our germans were better than the Russian's germans"

V1 and V2 were massive leaps in technology - but they didn't win a war, did they? Case in point the T34 tank vs the Tiger and Panther - arguably the Tiger and the Panther were better tanks, but weren't able to be produced in enough numbers to impact the outcome.

The Bismark and Tirpitz - The Gneisnau and Scharnhost - All very powerful Battleships, but again, that is 4 vs the entire Royal Navy (which had something like 20+ Battleship/Battlecruisers I think)

My point being that the Advanced weaponary is good, but you need it in sufficient quantities to effect the battle - as you say, too little, too late.



For sure - but the major rebuilding of the Wehrmacht started around 1935...







Exactly - and up until that point, it could have been saved - it was really post 1935, when Germany began re-building it's military, when it REALLY became a threat.

If WW2 had started in 1935, it wouldn't have been WW2, it probably would have barely lasted a year, I seem to remember a quote by Hitler himself saying that if he was to start a War in Europe, he wanted 10 more years to build up a fleet to rival and challenge the Royal Navy.



Tis a risk to be sure - but again - before NK had Rhetoric only, now they have Rhetoric and an ability to deliver a Nuclear weapon

The Gneisnau and Scharnhost were heavy Cruisers. The British fleet complied with the 1923 Washington Treaty and their newer Battleships and Battlecruisers were heavily compromised as a result, and the refit of their WW1-era Battleships left them underpowered and underarmed. The only relevant large surface warship by the start of WWII were Fleet Carriers, but the major powers took a couple of years to understand that. In the meantime German submarines caused a nightmare that is difficult for us to understand because we don't think about warfare in terms of large scale global logistics over a long period of time. If WWIII started now, we'd all be dead by Christmas so the things that were drivers during WWII just aren't relevant.

WWII started in 1933, but our peculiarly White ethnocentric historical constructs just can't encompass a massive land war in Asia as anything important. If the European (lets ignore the Iberian peninsula for now) part of WWII started in 1935 it would have ended in a year alright with Hitler holding a big chunk of central Europe following an Armistice leaving him allied with Spain and Italy and with the resources to build a resilient industrial base. The lack of stomach for war following WW1 is not something that is part of our culture, much the same way a middle class anti-vax mother wouldn't give her kid a polio shot because she's never seen a polio victim up close.

[Katman]

Tis a risk to be sure - but again - before NK had Rhetoric only, now they have Rhetoric and an ability to deliver a Nuclear weapon

And let's just remind ourselves which country is the only one to have used one in anger - twice.

[James Deuce]

And let's just remind ourselves which country is the only one to have used one in anger - twice.
And is about to use some in stupidity.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The world forgets the terrorist actions of the French State (not a "revolutionary" group, either) in New Zealand.
All of the superpowers went rather silent.


.

Yep. I'm still dirty on that.

[TheDemonLord]

The Gneisnau and Scharnhost were heavy Cruisers.

No.

Main Calibre larger than 8 inch, Belt armour of 350 mm (compared to say 100 mm of the IJN Myoko - a Heavy Cruiser).

They were Battleships or at a stretch - Battlecruisers


The British fleet complied with the 1923 Washington Treaty and their newer Battleships and Battlecruisers were heavily compromised as a result, and the refit of their WW1-era Battleships left them underpowered and underarmed. The only relevant large surface warship by the start of WWII were Fleet Carriers, but the major powers took a couple of years to understand that. In the meantime German submarines caused a nightmare that is difficult for us to understand because we don't think about warfare in terms of large scale global logistics over a long period of time. If WWIII started now, we'd all be dead by Christmas so the things that were drivers during WWII just aren't relevant.

Compromised yes - but I think you are overstating the case. Rodney and Nelson - despite their issues, served with distinction.


WWII started in 1933, but our peculiarly White ethnocentric historical constructs just can't encompass a massive land war in Asia as anything important. If the European (lets ignore the Iberian peninsula for now) part of WWII started in 1935 it would have ended in a year alright with Hitler holding a big chunk of central Europe following an Armistice leaving him allied with Spain and Italy and with the resources to build a resilient industrial base. The lack of stomach for war following WW1 is not something that is part of our culture, much the same way a middle class anti-vax mother wouldn't give her kid a polio shot because she's never seen a polio victim up close.

BS - Hitler didn't have enough equipment in 1935.

In 1939 - the Tank production was about 400/year - Total Tank Strength was 3,500 in 1939 - work backwards 5 years - you've got 1,500 tanks - France had something like 4-5000 tanks in this same time period.

[TheDemonLord]

And let's just remind ourselves which country is the only one to have used one in anger - twice.

Oh look - another thing Katman hates about the US and felt compelled to mention.

What.
A.
Surprise.

[Maha]

Oh look - another thing Katman hates about the US and felt compelled to mention.

What.
A.
Surprise.

It's a wonder seeing that he enjoys those who fuck back...........harder.

[T.W.R]

The V1 is more correctly described as a barely-guided cruise missile and the V2 a medium range ballistic missile. Neither were Inter-continental in nature. Because we live in the middle of nowhere, it's a bit difficult to grok that the distance between northern France where the V1 launch sites were to start with and London is a bit like Auckland to Hamilton.

Russia fired a V2 at the moon and actually hit it. That was probably the V2's greatest moment, but we only hear about comparatively timid efforts made in the US. Tsiolkovsky was a better rocket engineer than von Braun but had to fight hard for every resource, rather than the never-ending stream of $6000 toilets and $800 hammers the US military-led space programme got to play with up until people got bored with the moon landings.

I agree with your analysis of the mood in Germany prior to 1933 too. All Hitler had to do as chancellor was borrow enough money to get an industrial programme underway to make it look like he'd delivered on his campaign promises. Then people didn't think all that hard about the wilder extremes of policy that began to happen once Hindenburg died, so logn as they weren't affected directly.

Yeah I agree but I was a bit over zealous with the use of the term but it is detracting from the original point.
However 120 odd kms in distance at the time was no mean feat and well in advance of anything else and to add it's nearly 10x the distance of the narrowest point between Europe & Africa ;)

[James Deuce]

No.

Main Calibre larger than 8 inch, Belt armour of 350 mm (compared to say 100 mm of the IJN Myoko - a Heavy Cruiser).

They were Battleships or at a stretch - Battlecruisers



Compromised yes - but I think you are overstating the case. Rodney and Nelson - despite their issues, served with distinction.



BS - Hitler didn't have enough equipment in 1935.

In 1939 - the Tank production was about 400/year - Total Tank Strength was 3,500 in 1939 - work backwards 5 years - you've got 1,500 tanks - France had something like 4-5000 tanks in this same time period.

Didn't need the equipment. As I said, there was absolutely no stomach for war as evidenced by Hitler simply annexing chunks of France and Czechoslovakia from '36 onward, and wasn't militarily in a much better state. France would not have taken the field. They suffered horrendously in WW1 and in '35 the Army was mostly vets of the previous conflict. They wouldn't have come out to play. By '39 you had a fresh stream of professionals and conscripts.

[T.W.R]

"This proves our germans were better than the Russian's germans"

V1 and V2 were massive leaps in technology - but they didn't win a war, did they? Case in point the T34 tank vs the Tiger and Panther - arguably the Tiger and the Panther were better tanks, but weren't able to be produced in enough numbers to impact the outcome.

:facepalm: The Germans were using tigers & Panthers at the beginning of the war, the Russian Cossacks lead the last cavalry charge recorded against them at one point early in to WWII :facepalm:
The T34 admittedly the best light heavy weight tank built didn't make an appearance until a few years in :yes: just the same as if the Germans had produced the King Tiger earlier imagine what effect that would of had, shit I think only 6 if that made it into the war theater in the last few months



The Bismark and Tirpitz - The Gneisnau and Scharnhost - All very powerful Battleships, but again, that is 4 vs the entire Royal Navy (which had something like 20+ Battleship/Battlecruisers I think)

My point being that the Advanced weaponary is good, but you need it in sufficient quantities to effect the battle - as you say, too little, too late.

You should read the Battle of the river Plate :yes: give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy
And for that fact in regards to the Bismarck how it met it's demise and how she sailed right under the British navy's nose basically giving them a right royal FU :laugh:
Head to head the the German ships were far better than the Royal Navy thus they had to resort to dirty tactics to succeed...but that's war.

Though have a think about Dunkirk :yes: what a major difference that would've been if the Germans hadn't halted their advance :shifty: shit the Poms were even thinking of a conditional surrender because they were basically well fucked

[Voltaire]

:facepalm: The Germans were using tigers & Panthers at the beginning of the war, the Russian Cossacks lead the last cavalry charge recorded against them at one point early in to WWII :facepalm:
The T34 admittedly the best light heavy weight tank built didn't make an appearance until a few years in :yes: just the same as if the Germans had produced the King Tiger earlier imagine what effect that would of had, shit I think only 6 if that made it into the war theater in the last few months



You should read the Battle of the river Plate :yes: give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy
And for that fact in regards to the Bismarck how it met it's demise and how she sailed right under the British navy's nose basically giving them a right royal FU :laugh:
Head to head the the German ships were far better than the Royal Navy thus they had to resort to dirty tactics to succeed...but that's war.

Though have a think about Dunkirk :yes: what a major difference that would've been if the Germans hadn't halted their advance :shifty: shit the Poms were even thinking of a conditional surrender because they were basically well fucked

I think you might have to a read up on German and Russian tanks :shifty:

My memory is a bit vague but the Germans really only Panzer 1 and 2's in the mid 30's and then the Pz 3 and 4 at the start of the war.
The PZ 3 had a 50mm gun but the PZ4 had a 74 and was the mainstay of the wehrmacht for the war.
The Panther was a response to the T34 which I think turned up in late 1941 when the Germans were at the gates of Moscow.
It was based in a US design called the Christie.Main feature of t34 was sloped armour and 76mm gun along with wide tracks for poor conditions.
The Panther was plagued by reliability issues and the Tiger 1 was just to complex,slow and heavy. Good in North Africa though but eventually 1 of the 10 Shermans ( junk ) will get you.
Tank numbers were boosted by the invasion of Czechoslovakia who had the rather nice T38 which made great gun platforms.
The Germans captured a lot of French and British tanks but they were pretty crap.

Porsche who was Hitlers car/tank buddy suggested they build the T34 and it had a great alloy Diesel engine ( American inspired???)

The King Tiger was a Porsche design and not very good, they became Elefant gun platforms.

Best WW2 tank by miles , the T34. German tanks were too complicated as was most of their stuff.

The German navy other than the U Boats was bottled up for most of the war, The Royal Navy may not have been as modern but there was lots of it.

They should have just focused on PZ 4's and Focke Wolves instead of the plethora of side show designs like the Blohm & Voss BV 141, Tiger 2, Arado Ar 234 and

other oddities.

Dunkirk, the Germans really messed that up.

[T.W.R]

I think you might have to a read up on German and Russian tanks :shifty:

My memory is a bit vague but the Germans really only Panzer 1 and 2's in the mid 30's and then the Pz 3 and 4 at the start of the war.
The PZ 3 had a 50mm gun but the PZ4 had a 74 and was the mainstay of the wehrmacht for the war.
The Panther was a response to the T34 which I think turned up in late 1941 when the Germans were at the gates of Moscow.
It was based in a US design called the Christie.Main feature of t34 was sloped armour and 76mm gun along with wide tracks for poor conditions.
The Panther was plagued by reliability issues and the Tiger 1 was just to complex,slow and heavy. Good in North Africa though but eventually 1 of the 10 Shermans ( junk ) will get you.
Tank numbers were boosted by the invasion of Czechoslovakia who had the rather nice T38 which made great gun platforms.
The Germans captured a lot of French and British tanks but they were pretty crap.

Porsche who was Hitlers car/tank buddy suggested they build the T34 and it had a great alloy Diesel engine ( American inspired???)

The King Tiger was a Porsche design and not very good, they became Elefant gun platforms.

Best WW2 tank by miles , the T34. German tanks were too complicated as was most of their stuff.


Dunkirk, the Germans really messed that up.

:facepalm: Panthers Panzers lol my bad,

as for the King Tiger, I was thinking of the Panzer VIII Maus....just did a quick search & I see it was actually 5 ordered, 2 built, & 1 completed.......at 188ton she was one big mother fucker :blink:

The T34 was several variants of development further down the track from the BT which was based on the Christie design.

Dunkirk wasn't so much a German screw-up more the fact the advance was so swift they'd out run their supply and the stupid narrow french roads choked the line and caused a logistical nightmare :yes: bugger all fuel, ammunition, & food

[TheDemonLord]

:facepalm: The Germans were using tigers & Panthers at the beginning of the war, the Russian Cossacks lead the last cavalry charge recorded against them at one point early in to WWII :facepalm:
The T34 admittedly the best light heavy weight tank built didn't make an appearance until a few years in :yes: just the same as if the Germans had produced the King Tiger earlier imagine what effect that would of had, shit I think only 6 if that made it into the war theater in the last few months

See Voltaire's reply :)


You should read the Battle of the river Plate :yes: give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy
And for that fact in regards to the Bismarck how it met it's demise and how she sailed right under the British navy's nose basically giving them a right royal FU :laugh:
Head to head the the German ships were far better than the Royal Navy thus they had to resort to dirty tactics to succeed...but that's war.

Ah Captain Lansdorf and the Graf Spee - However, if you recall - The Royal Navy won that Battle and the Graf Spee ended up Sunk.

In regards to the Bismark - yes there was some Fog of War and some lessons leaned about inter-service communications

Head-to-Head the German ships had some advantages - For example - the British BL15 inch Naval gun was tested by the US after the war - and found to be the most Accurate of all the Naval artillery.

As for Dirty Tactics - you've mispelled "Winning Tactics"


Though have a think about Dunkirk :yes: what a major difference that would've been if the Germans hadn't halted their advance :shifty: shit the Poms were even thinking of a conditional surrender because they were basically well fucked

For Sure - We were royally fucked at Dunkirk - Hitler was hoping that the British would join him, so sparred them a Slaughter.

[pritch]

You should read the Battle of the river Plate :yes: give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy


HMS Achilles, one of the protagonists in the 1939 battle was a New Zealand ship. Until October 1941 the NZ navy was the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy. Thereafter it became the RNZN, and the ships prefixed HMNZS.

My old man was in the navy throughout WW2. At one point there was serious concern that a surface raider, such as Graf Spee, would sail around the Horn and lay waste to the shipping from Australia, New Zealand and wherever, that was keeping Britain supplied with food. So he and a small crew were despatched to the Chatham Islands to set up equipment and establish a 24 hour radio listening watch.

As a result of this experience his views on Naval Intelligence were rather scathing. He was told to submit any questions they had and the spooks would supply answers.
He said that while the answers may not have been wrong technically, most were useless.

I can't remember all of the things he mentioned, but naturally the team wanted to know if there were trees on the island for the aerials. Yes was the reply, there are trees on the Island. Indeed there were trees but they were very low extremely windswept things on the other side of the Island from where the people lived. I guess the team slung the wire work between the buildings.

Never did ask him what the plan was should they have intercepted radio traffic indicating a cat was about to get among the pigeons.

[Voltaire]

Russia fired a V2 at the moon and actually hit it. That was probably the V2's greatest moment, but we only hear about comparatively timid efforts made in the US. .

Never heard of that one, I asked Google and he said it sounded like a Sunday Sport story.:blink:

I did see Iron Sky ...was it part of that?

[ellipsis]

...


https://youtu.be/9EGvhkOM0Dk


....

[husaberg]

I think you might have to a read up on German and Russian tanks :shifty:

.
Tank production WW2
Germany 19,766
Japan less than 6000
Italy 4573
Total 30,339


England 21,565
USA 88,816
Russia 89,813
<strike></strike>Total 200,194

[oldrider]

Among talk of modern atomic weapon assaults threats and or attacks, there is much to consider of past history of such events. :scratch:

Some may be interested in what were the drivers of such events? :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=19&v=ceFJ6I5awms

Interesting for those who may be (or not) interested. :corn:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Tank production WW2

Italy 4573


Takes a long time to build a tank with 15 reverse gears.

[Voltaire]

Takes a long time to build a tank with 15 reverse gears.

Thats why they made such nice bevel engines and gearboxes....

Husy forgot New Zealand Tank Production figures.

1

The Bob Semple tank. ( this probably belongs in the NZ is a backwater shithole thread)

Armour would have stopped a German stein easily. I doubt its in Te Papa.:lol:



http://cdn-frm-us.wargaming.net/wot/us/uploads/monthly_05_2014/post-3718277-0-16789200-1399298630.jpg



Oh and google this Battle of Caporetto, its in Slovenia now and worth a visit as WW 2 rolled thru there later on. probably explains why Italy were not as keen on

war as their version of Donald Trump

[pzkpfw]

Just a couple of comments ...


... The PZ 3 had a 50mm gun but the PZ4 had a 74 and was the mainstay of the wehrmacht for the war. ...

The gun on the IV was 75 mm. Initially low velocity short barreled (they originally didn't like the gun to stick out beyond the tank chassis), as the IV was more for infantry support, and the III was intended for tank vs tank. Though longer barrels later made the 50 mm on the III more effective (in the desert the Allies called it the "special"), it was the ability to up-gun the IV (bigger turret ring possible) with higher velocity longer barreled 75 mm guns that helped keep it in production for the whole war (though outclassed by many of its opponents by the end) as the III and IV sort of swapped roles.


... The King Tiger was a Porsche design and not very good, they became Elefant gun platforms. ...

No, the Elefant was what they did with left over chassis from Porsch's attempt to win the Tiger (VI) contract. The King Tiger was something else.

[husaberg]

Thats why they made such nice bevel engines and gearboxes....

Husy forgot New Zealand Tank Production figures.

1

The Bob Semple tank. ( this probably belongs in the NZ is a backwater shithole thread)

Armour would have stopped a German stein easily. I doubt its in Te Papa.:lol:


Oh and google this Battle of Caporetto, its in Slovenia now and worth a visit as WW 2 rolled thru there later on. probably explains why Italy were not as keen on

war as their version of Donald Trump

Bert Munro Build a cannon for WW1 he buried it after then reserected for WW2.
It was in true Bert style made from an old steam pipe with a wire wrapped breach. But it worked.
He tested it once and killed a neighbours cow as the story goes.

Takes a long time to build a tank with 15 reverse gears.

They used the same system as the French.

[Swoop]

Takes a long time to build a tank with 15 reverse gears.
... and being built by Italians, there would have been the normal reliability of the electrics...:rolleyes:

The gun on the IV was 75 mm. ... as the IV was more for infantry support, and the III was intended for tank vs tank.
The tactics were completely different in the opening stages of the war as well.
The German tanks were dispersed among infantry as as part of the standard units and were intended to support them. Only later did the tanks get grouped together for massed fighting as "panzer divisions".

[Paul in NZ]

Takes a long time to build a tank with 15 reverse gears.

Funny you should say that....

For a short time I owned a WW2 Daimler Dingo armoured car. Although it was really more of a scout car as opposed to the later bigger turreted one. It was a very successful design and I think in production all of WW2 but over shadowed by the Jeep.

However these things had a very clever H drive system with bevel drives at each wheel (dead clever actually and for once they were reasonably reliable too - leaked a fair bit ). There was a Daimler 6 in the back driving through their excellent fluid flywheel to a pre selector gearbox to a transfer case. There was a separate gearbox that gave 5 forward speeds, neutral and 5 reverse speeds... So - not only the Italians had multi speed reverse...

There was a later version made in Canada using a Ford V8 which was more powerful but it was bigger, heavier and noisier none of which are ideal for scouting missions...

[Whynot]

The tactics were completely different in the opening stages of the war as well.
The German tanks were dispersed among infantry as as part of the standard units and were intended to support them. Only later did the tanks get grouped together for massed fighting as "panzer divisions".

I think you'll find the Germans did use their tanks in "panzer divisions" at the start of the war.
The French and British had more tanks but only used them as infantry support.

If I recall correctly the germans had been planning/developing the whole blitzkreig thing for years before the war started.

[TheDemonLord]

I think you'll find the Germans did use their tanks in "panzer divisions" at the start of the war.
The French and British had more tanks but only used them as infantry support.

If I recall correctly the germans had been planning/developing the whole blitzkreig thing for years before the war started.

Well, they tested their tank tactics during the Spanish Civil war in 1936, which proved that their ideas were good

[Swoop]

I think you'll find the Germans did use their tanks in "panzer divisions" at the start of the war.

If I recall correctly the germans had been planning/developing the whole blitzkreig thing for years before the war started.

Yes, trials and exercises were conducted in Russia prior to the war, but the knowledgeable gentlemen at the Bovington Tank Museum state that up to and including the Battle of France, tanks were used as part of an infantry unit.
I take their research as a bit more informed, since they are the experts.

[Whynot]

Yes, trials and exercises were conducted in Russia prior to the war, but the knowledgeable gentlemen at the Bovington Tank Museum state that up to and including the Battle of France, tanks were used as part of an infantry unit.
I take their research as a bit more informed, since they are the experts.

As much as I hate to quote Wikipedia ....
"The first three panzer divisions were formed on 15 October 1935"

10 Panzer Divisions were involved in the Battle of France.

I guess it depends on what you define as an "infantry unit" as these divisions had a large amount of motorised infantry included.

[oldrider]

Food for thought? - who is actually the real historical aggressor here? - :scratch: - how many countries has North Korea invaded compared to the USA and it's allies?

While US, North Korea Both Make Threats, Only One Has Killed Millions of the Other’s People http://fair.org/home/while-us-north-korea-both-make-threats-only-one-has-killed-millions-of-the-others-people/ - :ar15:

Remembering that formally they are "still at war"! :corn:

[Murray]

you so light old lider we so lucky we no speak japanese because of yankee agressor

[oldrider]

you so light old lider we so lucky we no speak japanese because of yankee agressor

Yeah well that's understandable - try to do more research on the "WHY"! (I am extremely appreciative of the valiant servicemen and women that saved our lives)

[pritch]

Trump has again trumpeted his ignorance to the world using his favourite medium. On Twitter this morning he announced that a succession of US presidents: Bush, Clinton and Obama had failed to deal with "little Rocket Man". Impossible of course, little Rocket Man didn't come to power until early 2012 folowing the death of his father in late 2011.

Well it seems that after being suitably briefed Trump is at least aware that Puerto Rico "is an Island, surrounded by water, big water, Ocean water."
Off hand I can't think of an island that isn't surrounded by water seeing as that would seem to be the definition of an island? But sadly people were nedlessly dieing while he mastered those few brief facts.

Most of the things we worry about never happen. Things that do go wrong tend to do so without warning. We are doing about the right amount of worrying, it's just that we worry about the wrong things. People who worry about Kim Jong Un might consider that thought.

[TheDemonLord]

Trump has again trumpeted his ignorance to the world using his favourite medium. On Twitter this morning he announced that a succession of US presidents: Bush, Clinton and Obama had failed to deal with "little Rocket Man". Impossible of course, little Rocket Man didn't come to power until early 2012 folowing the death of his father in late 2011

The only Ignorance I see is that he didn't reference every President going back to 1953...

[pritch]

The only Ignorance I see is that he didn't reference every President going back to 1953...

He probably couldn't name them all?

[Woodman]

Most of the things we worry about never happen. Things that do go wrong tend to do so without warning. We are doing about the right amount of worrying, it's just that we worry about the wrong things. People who worry about Kim Jong Un might consider that thought.

Personally i am not that worried about kimjongun but just to be sure we don't get nuclear fallout in NZ I would prefer a conventional war in korea sooner rather than later before they get too nuclear capable. Selfish? you bet your ass.

[Grumph]

I'm not that worried either - the roadracing season has started and I doubt if fallout will stop the nationals....

What did amuse me was seeing Trumps poster boy ambassador saying we should be more worried about NK's bomb capability.
He's only a potential threat to the pacific - the French, the Brits and the US have all exploded nukes in the pacific.
NOW he tells us to worry....

[oldrider]

The only Ignorance I see is that he didn't reference every President going back to 1953...


He probably couldn't name them all?

Bet the only one he could really name would be himself - he probably has forgotten who Obama was by now! :scratch:

[oldrider]

North Korea: A Threat or A Victim? Some Facts. https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-a-threat-or-a-victim-some-facts/5615502?platform=hootsuite :stoogie: USA innocence? - what will it bring in 2018? :corn:

[Murray]

North Korea: A Threat or A Victim? Some Facts. https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-a-threat-or-a-victim-some-facts/5615502?platform=hootsuite :stoogie: USA innocence? - what will it bring in 2018? :corn:

Choice of 2 places to live - North Korea or USA which would you choose?

[oldrider]

Choice of 2 places to live - North Korea or USA which would you choose?

Neither - but that is not the point - we are distant observers and the (projected) history of how the situation got to this point doesn't always appear to line up.

There are always two sides to the story - do we appreciate the North Korean perspective? :scratch:

[TheDemonLord]

Neither - but that is not the point - we are distant observers and the (projected) history of how the situation got to this point doesn't always appear to line up.

There are always two sides to the story - do we appreciate the North Korean perspective? :scratch:

Which North Korean perspective?

The Official one?
Or the one that gets you and your family Executed?

[Murray]

There are always two sides to the story - do we appreciate the North Korean perspective? :scratch:

Whats the 2 sides to this story

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/golf-course-north-koreas-leader-11325632

[Crasherfromwayback]

Whats the 2 sides to this story

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/golf/golf-course-north-koreas-leader-11325632

Yeah, but you think NK is going to attack us due to the drivel you're fed by western media, so what's the diff?

[Murray]

Yeah, but you think NK is going to attack us due to the drivel you're fed by western media, so what's the diff?

The diff is if I was living in Japan I would not be happy with missiles being tested overhead. Has this happened elsewhere by any other country?

Drivel? What do you think the article about the golf was and that didn't come from western media originally.

[Grumph]

The diff is if I was living in Japan I would not be happy with missiles being tested overhead. Has this happened elsewhere by any other country?

Probably more risk of damage from space junk than a NK missile....There's a shitload of it up there and it comes down at random.
Never heard of anyone apologising for their junk causing damage either - so doesn't seem to be much difference between that and NK...

[TheDemonLord]

Probably more risk of damage from space junk than a NK missile....There's a shitload of it up there and it comes down at random.
Never heard of anyone apologising for their junk causing damage either - so doesn't seem to be much difference between that and NK...

Except a Guidance system, Nuclear Payload and ability to re-enter the atmosphere without burning up.

Small Details...

[Murray]

Probably more risk of damage from space junk than a NK missile....There's a shitload of it up there and it comes down at random.
Never heard of anyone apologising for their junk causing damage either - so doesn't seem to be much difference between that and NK...

That almost warrants a "is that you Cassina" reply Its such a ridiculous statement.

You would be OK then if they were doing it over NZ?

[Crasherfromwayback]

That almost warrants a "is that you Cassina" reply Its such a ridiculous statement.

You would be OK then if they were doing it over NZ?

Pot-Kettle. You're like the spawn of Cassina and her Brother you're that fucking thick.

[oldrider]

The US air force subjected North Koreans to three years of ‘rain and ruin’. It was a living nightmare – one that still haunts the country to this day

Americans once carpet-bombed North Korea. It's time to remember that past https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/13/america-carpet-bombed-north-korea-remember-that-past

The U.S. war crime North Korea won’t forget https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-north-korea-wont-forget/2015/03/20/fb525694-ce80-11e4-8c54-ffb5ba6f2f69_story.html?utm_term=.4df2a19a429a

[oldrider]

North Korea: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TrS0uNBuG9c" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Swoop]

5 January: In late 2017 someone with access to top secret Chinese documents leaked a four page outline of a particularly damaging 15 September Chinese proposal to North Korea. This was actually an attractive (for North Korea) secret ultimatum. China demanded that North Korea stop developing and testing nuclear weapons. North Korea would be allowed to keep those nukes it already had (believed to be as many as twenty) and in return China would secretly supply North Korea with new missile technology and other military assistance as well as help in defying economic sanctions and whatever it takes to improve the sorry state of the North Korean military and living standards in general.

If North Korea did not accept then China would first go after senior North Korean leaders and their families and strictly enforce all the sanctions and continue in that direction until North Korea behaved. In the document China said it did not believe the Americans would really attack, but that was more of a possibility now than in the past. It is unclear what deadline was associated with this proposal or if North Korea had actually received it. There was a high level meeting between Chinese and North Korean officials in North Korea on 17 November but nothing public came from that. North Korea now definitely knows about the 15 September document and now North Korea wants to talk peace with South Korea.

Non-government experts agree the document looks authentic (format, typeface, phrasing of the text) and the Chinese government will not comment, nor will the CIA or any other major intelligence agency. With what China knows about current affairs across the border it is easier to understand how the Chinese see the “threat” differently. The North Korean threat to China is rather absurdist; “push us North Koreans too far and we will bleed all over you” (with millions of refugees that will be expensive to help). This is not as spectacular as a nuclear threat, but more likely. The Chinese know (as do most senior North Korean officials) that actual use of nukes by North Korea (whether successful or not) means the end of the North Korean government and possibly much of the population as well. The traditional (and still quite popular) Chinese strategy is to try and make deals with enough members of the senior North Korean leadership to carry out a coup. Even if that does not succeed the growing paranoia among the senior leadership leads to weakening of the North Korean government as more key people flee or become ineffective lest they do something that is deemed treasonous.
The document specifically gives the North Korean ruling class protection, if the rulers agree.

The secret ultimatum is based on the belief that China is more exposed to damage from a North Korean collapse than South Korea or Japan. In other words, the North Korean ICBM is more of a political prop than a military threat. In the meantime there are more indications that the North Korea underground nuclear test site, which is close to the Chinese border, is leaking radioactivity and that this is causing alarm in northeast China. This is but a small taste of what China would have to deal with if there was a collapse of the North Korean government and a flood of refugees heading for the largely unfortified Chinese border. This is a very real threat and not something the Chinese want to deal with, especially if a lot of those refugees suffer from radiation poisoning and many diseases that are rarely encountered in China these days. China cannot admit that it is actually hoping for a military coup that would preserve public order in North Korea and justify sending large volumes of aid and getting the nuclear weapons and ballistic missile programs dismantled. A disorderly collapse of the North Korean government would make the current Chinese leadership look weak, not something that heads of the communist police state can afford. With all this in mind the secret ultimatum makes sense. It also appears that not everyone on the Chinese side of this agrees with the ultimatum terms. Or maybe it was believed that those terms would never really work.

[oldrider]

Gauging North Korea's nuclear power https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gauging-north-koreas-nuclear-power/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7d&linkId=46907123 :corn:

[Viking01]

And NZ is invited .... while Russia and China are not .....

https://www.rt.com/news/416027-us-canada-korea-summit/

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1084928.shtml

[Swoop]

Very interesting noises being made now regarding "One Korea". Slightly unexpected and un-nerving at the same time...


26 January 2018:
It was recently revealed (by commercial satellite photos and other reports) that an April 2016 test of a North Korean Hwasong-12 IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile) had not only failed (as was reported soon after the missile launch) but that the missile, still containing much of its liquid fuel, landed in the industrial outskirts of Tokchon, a city of 200,000 people about a hundred kilometres northeast of the capital Pyongyang.

The Hwasong-12 was launched from a military base 65 kilometres north of Pyongyang and the missile landed 38 kilometres northeast of the launch site and caused considerable damage on the ground. Any casualties would be considered state secrets in North Korea and it may take a while for the facts to become known.

[jasonu]

Very interesting noises being made now regarding "One Korea". Slightly unexpected and un-nerving at the same time...


26 January 2018:
It was recently revealed (by commercial satellite photos and other reports) that an April 2016 test of a North Korean Hwasong-12 IRBM (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile) had not only failed (as was reported soon after the missile launch) but that the missile, still containing much of its liquid fuel, landed in the industrial outskirts of Tokchon, a city of 200,000 people about a hundred kilometres northeast of the capital Pyongyang.

The Hwasong-12 was launched from a military base 65 kilometres north of Pyongyang and the missile landed 38 kilometres northeast of the launch site and caused considerable damage on the ground. Any casualties would be considered state secrets in North Korea and it may take a while for the facts to become known.

Good. I hope it's fucking true.

[oldrider]

What are the drivers that keep the North Korea gun smouldering? :- https://www.sott.net/article/387570-American-forces-guilty-of-genocide-in-the-Korean-War-according-to-1952-IADL-report - Stand-over tactics #1 tactics for Trump? - Yeah right, that will do it every time! - :stoogie: . :rofl:

[Voltaire]

Its fairly clear that the plan in Singers is to kidnap KJU and substitute him.

Or are the Koreans thinking something similar.

Either way they will decide in the first few seconds.

Better still just replace the pair of them with these guys.


https://c.ndtvimg.com/donald-trump-kim-jong-un-lookalikes-afp_625x300_1528569642767.jpg

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/kim-jong-un-impersonator-questioned-on-arrival-in-singapore/2018/06/08/03b84a68-6b7d-11e8-a335-c4503d041eaf_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.4312c8f44640

[oldrider]

[QUOTE=Voltaire;1131100851]Better still just replace the pair of them with these guys.[quote]

Would it really make any difference if they did? - Well maybe the Korean might. :whistle:

[TheDemonLord]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Trump managed to secure peace between North and South Korea - something no US president has been able to do in 60? odd years.

I can just imagine now the strained faces of his harshest critiques as they first try and find a way to diminish his role in just getting the 2 leaders to talk to each other and then realizing that maybe he wasn't so unqualified to begin with....

[Voltaire]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Trump managed to secure peace between North and South Korea - something no US president has been able to do in 60? odd years.

I can just imagine now the strained faces of his harshest critiques as they first try and find a way to diminish his role in just getting the 2 leaders to talk to each other and then realizing that maybe he wasn't so unqualified to begin with....

Its not a very good comparison but shaking hands with Dictators has been done before, Oh you can have that country, we don't even know where it is.


https://beaufortcountynow.com/uploads/article_images/op_ed/adolf_hitler_neville_chamberlain_1_630_pxlw.jpg

[oldrider]

Its not a very good comparison but shaking hands with Dictators has been done before, Oh you can have that country, we don't even know where it is.

Sort of like when Britain gave away Palestine to the Zionists and it ended up in the hands of this guy?

<iframe width="291" height="164" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SHIV6OwSsLs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Voltaire]

Sort of like when Britain gave away Palestine to the Zionists and it ended up in the hands of this guy?

<iframe width="291" height="164" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SHIV6OwSsLs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

More of thoughtful stare than a handshake.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/wp-content/uploads/2003/01/balfour2.jpg

[husaberg]

Wouldn't it be hilarious if the Trump managed to secure peace between North and South Korea - something no US president has been able to do in 60? odd years.

I can just imagine now the strained faces of his harshest critiques as they first try and find a way to diminish his role in just getting the 2 leaders to talk to each other and then realizing that maybe he wasn't so unqualified to begin with....

no one was able to get them to them to the table as the north was un willing.
The ever increasing world wide sanctions, the Fall off the USSR and its major support it provided the North and the Sudden lack of Chinese support would seem a far more plausible reason behind the Norths sudden interest to approach the negotiating table than any great negotiating skill of Trump.
To credit Trump with negotiating a lasting peace you would also have to pretend the two parties had not already met in April at the inter-Korean summit and signed the Panmunjom Declaration.

The two leaders solemnly declared before the 80 million Korean people and the whole world that there will be no more war on the Korean Peninsula and thus a new era of peace has begun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panmunjom_Declaration
To credit Trump you would also have to not be aware that the vast majority of the sanctions were put in place prior to him becoming US president
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/2018_inter-Korean_summit_square.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_square.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_square.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/2018_inter-Korean_summit_01.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_01.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_01.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/2018_inter-Korean_summit_03.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_03.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_03.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/2018_inter-Korean_summit_02.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_02.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_02.jpg)
Not that it will stop trump saying he was the reason it happened, he will likely even believe it was well, especially if it is reported on Fox News.

[TheDemonLord]

no one was able to get them to them to the table as the north was un willing.
The ever increasing world wide sanctions, the Fall off the USSR and its major support it provided the North and the Sudden lack of Chinese support would seem a far more plausible reason behind the Norths sudden interest to approach the negotiating table than any great negotiating skill of Trump.
To credit Trump with negotiating a lasting peace you would also have to pretend the two parties had not already met in April at the inter-Korean summit and signed the Panmunjom Declaration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panmunjom_Declaration
To credit Trump you would also have to not be aware that the vast majority of the sanctions were put in place prior to him becoming US president

Not that it will stop trump saying he was the reason it happened, he will likely even believe it was well, especially if it is reported on Fox News.

And yet...

It was Trump that did it.

Not Obama.
Not Bush Jr.
Not Clinton.
Not Bush Sr.
Not Reagan.
Not Carter.
Not Ford.
Not Nixon.
Not Johnson.
Not Kennedy.
Not Eisenhower
and Not Truman.

And whilst I'm sure sanctions, withdrawal of international support and the Death of Kim Jong Il all had a part to play, I also suspect that Trump's rhetoric directed at the Regime was ALSO a factor.

[husaberg]

And yet...

It was Trump that did it.

Not Obama.
Not Bush Jr.
Not Clinton.
Not Bush Sr.
Not Reagan.
Not Carter.
Not Ford.
Not Nixon.
Not Johnson.
Not Kennedy.
Not Eisenhower
and Not Truman.

And whilst I'm sure sanctions, withdrawal of international support and the Death of Kim Jong Il all had a part to play, I also suspect that Trump's rhetoric directed at the Regime was ALSO a factor.

If it was threats and rhetoric that did it you need to remember Truman was threatening to go Nuclear on the North as far back as 1950.

[TheDemonLord]

If it was threats and rhetoric that did it you need to remember Truman was threatening to go Nuclear on the North as far back as 1950.

Right when the USSR was a much more serious threat...

Also, I'm pretty sure Truman didn't use Twitter.

[husaberg]

Right when the USSR was a much more serious threat...

Also, I'm pretty sure Truman didn't use Twitter.

They even recycled the exact same B29's and bombs that he used to break the Berlin blockade.
He also helped form the united Nations and presided over a period economic prosperity of the U.S.
Truman submitted the first comprehensive civil rights legislation and issued executive orders to start racial integration in the military and federal agencies.
He also served with distinction in WW1. Later he was a County judge
Truman didn't need make America great again hats made in China.
He maintained a marriage to the same woman all his life.
Truman didn't need twitter (or a small loan of a million dollars)
He was a self made man of substance

[jasonu]

no one was able to get them to them to the table as the north was un willing.
The ever increasing world wide sanctions, the Fall off the USSR and its major support it provided the North and the Sudden lack of Chinese support would seem a far more plausible reason behind the Norths sudden interest to approach the negotiating table than any great negotiating skill of Trump.
To credit Trump with negotiating a lasting peace you would also have to pretend the two parties had not already met in April at the inter-Korean summit and signed the Panmunjom Declaration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panmunjom_Declaration
To credit Trump you would also have to not be aware that the vast majority of the sanctions were put in place prior to him becoming US president
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/2018_inter-Korean_summit_square.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_square.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_square.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/2018_inter-Korean_summit_01.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_01.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_01.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/2018_inter-Korean_summit_03.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_03.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_03.jpg)https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/2018_inter-Korean_summit_02.jpg/220px-2018_inter-Korean_summit_02.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2018_inter-Korean_summit_02.jpg)
Not that it will stop trump saying he was the reason it happened, he will likely even believe it was well, especially if it is reported on Fox News.

So are you saying if this all pans out well Trump is still shit for being involved?
If the old whore had won or the last schmuck was still in charge this would have never happened.

[Voltaire]

Will the hats be made in China?

https://pics.me.me/mission-accomplished-n-korea-again-make-n-korea-great-again-make-n-korea-34040095.png

[TheDemonLord]

They even recycled the exact same B29's and bombs that he used to break the Berlin blockade.
He also helped form the united Nations and presided over a period economic prosperity of the U.S.
Truman submitted the first comprehensive civil rights legislation and issued executive orders to start racial integration in the military and federal agencies.
He also served with distinction in WW1. Later he was a County judge
Truman didn't need make America great again hats made in China.
He maintained a marriage to the same woman all his life.
Truman didn't need twitter (or a small loan of a million dollars)
He was a self made man of substance

I'm not saying anything bad about Truman. To me it speaks volumes that people can't bring themselves to put aside their bias and dislike for the Trump, to acknowledge that he's actually done something ground breaking for World Peace. Even if North Korea remains "at war" with the US and South Korea, simply meeting and shaking hands is something momentous in it's significance.

And that alone makes him infinitely more deserving of a certain Nobel Prize awarded to a certain other US president (who didn't really do a whole lot for World Peace, except maybe kill Bin Laden)

[jasonu]

I'm not saying anything bad about Truman. To me it speaks volumes that people can't bring themselves to put aside their bias and dislike for the Trump, to acknowledge that he's actually done something ground breaking for World Peace. Even if North Korea remains "at war" with the US and South Korea, simply meeting and shaking hands is something momentous in it's significance.

And that alone makes him infinitely more deserving of a certain Nobel Prize awarded to a certain other US president (who didn't really do a whole lot for World Peace, except maybe kill Bin Laden)

Obama’s got the npp for being black. No great feat really.

[Katman]

And that alone makes him infinitely more deserving of a certain Nobel Prize awarded to a certain other US president (who didn't really do a whole lot for World Peace, except maybe kill Bin Laden)

Over 550 drone strikes ordered by Obama - which have been estimated to have killed possibly upward of 800 civilians. (Of course, those dead civilians won't mean anything to you though).

Ten times the number of strikes order by the war criminal who preceded him..

Trump is on target to trump those figures though.*



*Puns intended.

[oldrider]

I'm not saying anything bad about Truman. To me it speaks volumes that people can't bring themselves to put aside their bias and dislike for the Trump, to acknowledge that he's actually done something ground breaking for World Peace. Even if North Korea remains "at war" with the US and South Korea, simply meeting and shaking hands is something momentous in it's significance.

And that alone makes him infinitely more deserving of a certain Nobel Prize awarded to a certain other US president (who didn't really do a whole lot for World Peace, except maybe kill Bin Laden)

Shaking hands with one hand while pointing a 45 at his temple with the other? - Yeah that should be worth a "peace prize".

Soon as he gets that little side show distraction out of the way he can get on with the peaceful destruction of Iran - then he can get a peace prize from Bibi Netanyahu and Israel. :eek: What a man! :whistle:

Consider this for a moment? - https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06-12/trump-kim-instead-missiles-you-could-have-best-hotels-world - couldn't be true - could it?

[Berries]

Soon as he gets that little side show distraction out of the way he can get on with the peaceful destruction of Iran - then he can get a peace prize from Bibi Netanyahu and Israel. :eek: What a man! :whistle:

You and your Jewish shit is getting to be a bit like cassina and her group riding fixation.


No offence.

[TheDemonLord]

Over 550 drone strikes ordered by Obama - which have been estimated to have killed possibly upward of 800 civilians. (Of course, those dead civilians won't mean anything to you though).

Ten times the number of strikes order by the war criminal who preceded him..

Trump is on target to trump those figures though.*



*Puns intended.

If it makes you happy, I wouldn't have given Obama the Nobel prize...

[oldrider]

You and your Jewish shit is getting to be a bit like cassina and her group riding fixation.


No offence.


No offence taken - 2% of the world population 98% of representation in world affairs - don't you think that Jewish affairs attract attention with figures like that? :corn:

[TheDemonLord]

Shaking hands with one hand while pointing a 45 at his temple with the other? - Yeah that should be worth a "peace prize".

Interesting analogy.

At the end of a conflict, almost all peace is initially brought about at the barrel of a Gun.

If the outcome is that both parties can sit down and talk, is it wrong that to implied force was used to get them to that point?

The key part of any negotiation is to know the things that you want, to know what things you can and cannot compromise on and to know the same about your opposition and further to know what they cannot afford to loose.

If we remove the firearm analogy and go for something a little more mundane: Asking for a pay rise - you know what you want (more money) you know that you can negotiate on a figure, but there is a figure below which you won't accept it. You also need to know what your company can afford to pay out and you need to know what the impact of your departure will be to the company should you leave.

There is still a degree of implied force - namely "If you don't meet this minimum figure, I will look elsewhere for a job" and hopefully if you are a good employee, with marketable skills - the outcome of you leaving is less desirable than the outcome of paying you more money.

Point to all this is:

If it gets people to Talk, a little implied violence is a good thing. The trick is - to remain talking and not to move from an implicit violence, to an explicit one.

As a side note, I wonder if North Korea's recent nuclear tests have given them some degree of confidence that they can now negotiate with the US as some form of Equal?

[TheDemonLord]

No offence taken - 2% of the world population 98% of representation in world affairs - don't you think that Jewish affairs attract attention with figures like that? :corn:

115 average IQ for Ashkenazi Jews.

If success in the system is related to hard work and intelligence - it's little to no wonder that a small minority of Jews are over-represented in all the senior positions.

Conspiracy need not apply,

[Katman]

115 average IQ for Ashkenazi Jews.

Jews of European descent - with no historical ties to the Middle East.

[Berries]

No offence taken - 2% of the world population 98% of representation in world affairs - don't you think that Jewish affairs attract attention with figures like that?
Nope.

I was going to suggest that it is not going to alter the price of butter but then I noticed how similar the words Fonterra and Hezbollah sound. Must be a Youtube channel dedicated to that somewhere....................

[oldrider]

Nope.

I was going to suggest that it is not going to alter the price of butter but then I noticed how similar the words Fonterra and Hezbollah sound. Must be a Youtube channel dedicated to that somewhere....................

Actually it is an extremely interesting subject just don't get angry and emotional should the fog begin to clear - it doesn't help and it won't make any difference! - If there is a problem it is IMO usually us! (goyum/non Jews) :confused:

Business is business after all. :shifty:

[EJK]

And yet...

It was Trump that did it.

Not Obama.
Not Bush Jr.
Not Clinton.
Not Bush Sr.
Not Reagan.
Not Carter.
Not Ford.
Not Nixon.
Not Johnson.
Not Kennedy.
Not Eisenhower
and Not Truman.

And whilst I'm sure sanctions, withdrawal of international support and the Death of Kim Jong Il all had a part to play, I also suspect that Trump's rhetoric directed at the Regime was ALSO a factor.

I'd like to say it only happened on Trump's time. Past South Korean presidents also had been ignorant and fraudulent, and Kim Jong Il was still alive.

Trump nearly blew the deal when he wrote the letter couple weeks back saying the Summit was a no go.

Current President Moon is the true unsung hero. After Trump's letter he immediately went to North Korea to talk with Kim to discuss options and regain faith. No previous South Korea president would've done that. They weren't interested, only pocketing money into their private accounts.

President Moon has worked so hard to talk with North Korea and Kim. These things are not reported much on western news (because it's not as interesting as Trump's tweets) but a lot of activities and joint works have been conducted, including Pyeongchang winter olympics.

[Katman]

I'm sure John Bolton saying that if North Korea didn't do what America wanted, they'd go the same way as Libya, didn't help matters.

[husaberg]

So are you saying if this all pans out well Trump is still shit for being involved?
If the old whore had won or the last schmuck was still in charge this would have never happened.
No Jace what I was saying that Trump deserves little credit for any peace deal, as they had already sorted that prior to Trumps visit.


I'm not saying anything bad about Truman. To me it speaks volumes that people can't bring themselves to put aside their bias and dislike for the Trump, to acknowledge that he's actually done something ground breaking for World Peace. Even if North Korea remains "at war" with the US and South Korea, simply meeting and shaking hands is something momentous in it's significance.

And that alone makes him infinitely more deserving of a certain Nobel Prize awarded to a certain other US president (who didn't really do a whole lot for World Peace, except maybe kill Bin Laden)

Dislike for trump has nothing to do with not giving him credit for any peace deal he didn't take part in.
EJK sums it up above.

[TheDemonLord]

I'd like to say it only happened on Trump's time. Past South Korean presidents also had been ignorant and fraudulent, and Kim Jong Il was still alive.

Trump nearly blew the deal when he wrote the letter couple weeks back saying the Summit was a no go.

Current President Moon is the true unsung hero. After Trump's letter he immediately went to North Korea to talk with Kim to discuss options and regain faith. No previous South Korea president would've done that. They weren't interested, only pocketing money into their private accounts.

President Moon has worked so hard to talk with North Korea and Kim. These things are not reported much on western news (because it's not as interesting as Trump's tweets) but a lot of activities and joint works have been conducted, including Pyeongchang winter olympics.

Certainly a possibility.

Another is that Trump knew precisely what he was doing, just like when he called Taiwan direct. It's entirely possible he's playing it like a high-pressure business negotiation, keeping his opposition on their toes.

Also - your description of Trumps actions vs Moons actions - sounds rather like the classic "Good Cop, Bad Cop" routine...

My point however, is that various groups of people are doing everything within their power to downplay or mitigate the role Trump has had in these events.

[EJK]

Certainly a possibility.

Another is that Trump knew precisely what he was doing, just like when he called Taiwan direct. It's entirely possible he's playing it like a high-pressure business negotiation, keeping his opposition on their toes.

Also - your description of Trumps actions vs Moons actions - sounds rather like the classic "Good Cop, Bad Cop" routine...

My point however, is that various groups of people are doing everything within their power to downplay or mitigate the role Trump has had in these events.

True. Trump did play his part. Not sure the situation may had been the same if he was Bush or Obama. Obama... Maybe. Bush? Doubt it.

I just hate to see everyone giving Trump all the praise like he did all the work. Nobel prize... Get fucked.

[Graystone]

True. Trump did play his part. Not sure the situation may had been the same if he was Bush or Obama. Obama... Maybe. Bush? Doubt it.

I just hate to see everyone giving Trump all the praise like he did all the work. Nobel prize... Get fucked.

Third string at best, behind the leaders of South Korea, North Korea, and probably China as well. US are just shouting the loudest as they dwindle into obscurity behind the true economic superpowers (and no Oldy, it's not the Jews FFS), Trump is the perfect president to pull that off.

[oldrider]

Third string at best, behind the leaders of South Korea, North Korea, and probably China as well. US are just shouting the loudest as they dwindle into obscurity behind the true economic superpowers (and no Oldy, it's not the Zionists FFS), Trump is the perfect president to pull that off.

OK - Keep your eye on the banks - currently three countries left without Rothschild federal reserve style central banks - North Korea, Syria and Iran! - :shutup: - Watch this space? :wait:

[husaberg]

No offence taken - 2% of the world population 98% of representation in world affairs - don't you think that Jewish affairs attract attention with figures like that? :corn:
2% of the population yet 100% of your posts.
At least Katspam has the imagination to have multiple Paranoid delusions.........

[jasonu]

My point however, is that various groups of people are doing everything within their power to downplay or mitigate the role Trump has had in these events.

You should hear the USA Lib media. Pick pick pick..... totally unexpected though.
Doesn't matter what he might do, if it is good they will say it was already in the works before he got in, if it is bad, well you know.....
A lot like the Labour supporters blaming National for the tooth fairy's ineptitude.

[Voltaire]

2% of the population yet 100% of your posts.
At least Katspam has the imagination to have multiple Paranoid delusions.........

Must spread rep around etc.


So to the real news, when is Ivanka opening a shop in pyongyang or jerusalem for the 2%ers

[oldrider]

You guys will realise one day soon that you should have gone to Spec-Savers - none so blind as those who will not see! :lol:

[TheDemonLord]

True. Trump did play his part. Not sure the situation may had been the same if he was Bush or Obama. Obama... Maybe. Bush? Doubt it.

I just hate to see everyone giving Trump all the praise like he did all the work. Nobel prize... Get fucked.

I think Jasonu summed it up best:

If it's something that went badly - Everyone would be ridiculing Trump and directly blaming him
But here, it's something good, and everyone is doing their absolute best to not give Trump any credit for this.

And I happen to think this event is one of the most historic moments (in terms of world peace) - yet we're still seeing the sourest of sour grapes from the News Media in general.

[jasonu]

I think Jasonu summed it up best:

If it's something that went badly - Everyone would be ridiculing Trump and directly blaming him
But here, it's something good, and everyone is doing their absolute best to not give Trump any credit for this.

And I happen to think this event is one of the most historic moments (in terms of world peace) - yet we're still seeing the sourest of sour grapes from the News Media in general.

The dems and their media still haven’t got over the fact that their Hillary couldn’t beat what was likely the most unpopular candidate for potus ever.


As it turned out Trump was the second most unpopular candidate.

[Katman]

And I happen to think this event is one of the most historic moments (in terms of world peace)

I think it's far too early to leap to that conclusion.

[TheDemonLord]

I think it's far too early to leap to that conclusion.

I've thought quite a bit about that and on the one hand - you're right, there's a shit load of progress to be made. But on the other hand - the journey of 1,000 miles starts with a single step - I consider the first step to be (perhaps) the most pivotal moment.

[husaberg]

You should hear the USA Lib media. Pick pick pick..... totally unexpected though.
Doesn't matter what he might do, if it is good they will say it was already in the works before he got in, if it is bad, well you know.....
A lot like the Labour supporters blaming National for the tooth fairy's ineptitude.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/96F5/production/_99554683_approval_chart_01_640-nc.pnghttps://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/13B88/production/_99667708_us_approval_rating_640-nc.pnghttps://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/18155/production/_99554689_03_jobs_created_jan_18_640-nc.pnghttps://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/5B93/production/_99634432_04_bills_signed_640-nc.png

[Katman]

I've thought quite a bit about that and on the one hand - you're right, there's a shit load of progress to be made. But on the other hand - the journey of 1,000 miles starts with a single step - I consider the first step to be (perhaps) the most pivotal moment.

And if, like we saw in Libya, North Korea gives up it's nuclear capability, and we then see America inciting and funding a coup in NK to change the government to one that can be controlled by the West, will you still call that World Peace?

[TheDemonLord]

And if, like we saw in Libya, North Korea gives up it's nuclear capability, and we then see America inciting and funding a coup in NK to change the government to one that can be controlled by the West, will you still call that World Peace?

Well, given the totalitarian nature of the Kim regime, it's not as absurd as you are trying to make it out to be...

[Katman]

Well, given the totalitarian nature of the Kim regime, it's not as absurd as you are trying to make it out to be...

Really?

You think replacing a strong leader that keeps his people under control, with a Western puppet, guarantees peace?

Have you forgotten about Iraq already?

And before you jump to the conclusion that I believe Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Un deserve sainthoods, I'm merely commenting on your view that regime change will be for the good of the citizens of that country.

Quite frankly, I don't think America gives a fuck about the people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iran etc., etc., ad infinitum.

[TheDemonLord]

Really?

You think replacing a strong leader that keeps his people under control, with a Western puppet, guarantees peace?

Have you forgotten about Iraq already?

And before you jump to the conclusion that I believe Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Un deserve sainthoods, I'm merely commenting on your view that regime change will be for the good of the citizens of that country.

Quite frankly, I don't think America gives a fuck about the people of Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iran etc., etc., ad infinitum.

That is definitely a question for the Philosophers...

But to answer your question - I believe that in the short term, it will be worse for the Citizens, but in the long term - it will pay off.

And I happen to think that Freedom is something worth short term suffering.

[Katman]

And I happen to think that Freedom is something worth short term suffering.

Especially if it's not you that has to suffer.

And clearly you're not content with KJU making concessions to the West. You want him gone.

And that's what's so wrong with so much of Western policy.

[TheDemonLord]

Especially if it's not you that has to suffer.

And clearly you're not content with KJU making concessions to the West. You want him gone.

And that's what's so wrong with so much of Western policy.

It's not that I want KJU gone per se, it's that I want the oppressive, totalitarian regime gone, in fact - I want any oppressive, totalitarian regime gone. Now, I'll grant you that I don't think that it's possible whilst KJU is in power, but anyways.

In regards to suffering, whilst it's true that I don't have to suffer the short term, I also don't have to suffer the long term effects of the totalitarian regime. The question becomes which one is worse, and my value judgement (based on both the philosophical arguments and the testimony from people who have lived under such regimes) is that the long term suffering is far greater.

[Viking01]

I think it's far too early to leap to that conclusion.

Agreed.

The recent US - NK summit was interesting. In that it actually occurred. And that they did
sign a piece of paper (a statement of intent).

But the more important questions surely are: Why did the summit occur? And why now ?

[ I've nominally ignored US mid-term elections and a potential Nobel Peace prize, even though
they may be "short term considerations". I've also ignored "pursuit of peace" as a long term
US objective as well. They do make "lovely talking points", though ]


In the past, the US has been able to rely on South Korean military and conservative factions
to keep any ideas of "establishment of good relations" between NK and SK in check.

Even if the dynamic between the two Koreas has shifted recently, it will shift only as far as
TPTB would allow it to shift. The US has been able to implement new radar and missile systems
in SK recently, despite local public out-cry. So the internal reins of power have not changed
visibly.


Maybe the US has finally sensed it could be a loser (both geo-stratgeically and economically)
if it didn't engage with NK at this point in time. And try to shoulder other major players aside.

Maybe the possibility of NK acting as a conduit for Russian gas supply to SK, plus SK trade
with Europe via rail north through NK.

More likely (to me) is that once some such "facts on the ground" had been established, then NK
mineral resources (significant) then become open for their exploitation. But more importantly, for
foreign control.

Not just minerals like gold, iron and copper, but less common ones such as molydenum, tungsten
and some rare earths (used for mobile phones). Even the NY Post has noticed :

https://nypost.com/2017/07/03/north-korea-is-sitting-on-6-trillion-in-mineral-resources/

The extraction of which might well be contracted out to NK's long term (and more trusted) partners,
China and Russia.


You can be sure that the US is not taking any such "positive" action based on either the threat of
NK nuclear missiles or on humanitarian grounds.

The US has lived with a "nuclear threat" since the 1950's. Its actions since 2000 to withdraw from
international weapons arms treaties (and its recent comments on the development and usage of
tactical nuclear weapons) puts a lie to that item.

And US politicians couldn't care less about starving (or dying) civilians in other countries around the
world. Analysis of the composition of US "foreign aid" budgets should deal to that item as well.

But their masters do care about mineral resources. And they do care about "locking up" future access
to those resources.

So I would think any future political agreement - and importantly the relaxation of sanctions on NK -
is very likely to involve agreement on not only certain US mining companies getting entry to NK and
their participation in mineral extraction, but importantly future access rights to such resources.

If we were to look just at gold:

1. Who could go past major US mining companies such as Barrick Gold and Newmont Mining to do
"extraction". Both with world class mining credentials (and solid past history of association with
the CIA, and experience of operation under authoritarian regimes).

2. More importantly, we wouldn't want this gold becoming available to US economic competitors.
They might use it to bolster their own financial reserves. But more importantly they might use it to
underpin financial contracts (e.g. purchase of oil). And where would the USD be if that happened ?

I'm sure there are similar compelling narratives about the other less common minerals listed above.


So, like many others, I'm interested to see just how far future US-NK "negotiations" proceed - and
whether they do reach a "positive" conclusion (and the "price paid", of course).

Or whether the US decides to "toss its toys out of the cot", claiming that "NK was not really serious
about de-nuclearisation" .... 8-)

Time will tell.

[Katman]

It's not that I want KJU gone per se, it's that I want the oppressive, totalitarian regime gone, in fact - I want any oppressive, totalitarian regime gone. Now, I'll grant you that I don't think that it's possible whilst KJU is in power, but anyways.

Let's go back to the Middle East for a second.

In countries like Iraq you have many factions that appear to hate each other. Saddam Hussein (for all his faults) kept Iraq stable. And he did so via a totalitarian regime.

The place is now a clusterfuck.

So much for your idealistic dream of the West saving the world.

[Katman]

....and my value judgement.....

What the fuck does your 'value judgement' have to do with the people who have to suffer through being the playthings of the West?

Do you think they gain some sort of solace in the thought that you're sitting there on your fat arse happy to watch them suffer - even for a short term?

[TheDemonLord]

Let's go back to the Middle East for a second.

In countries like Iraq you have many factions that appear to hate each other. Saddam Hussein (for all his faults) kept Iraq stable. And he did so via a totalitarian regime.

The place is now a clusterfuck.

So much for your idealistic dream of the West saving the world.

Freedom is the idealism, not the west. I think certain western values have objectively demonstrated that they are the best set of values that Humanity have yet to come up with. And yes, Iraq is a Clusterfuck - but those groups now have a series of options:

- They could go back to the old Totalitarian ways (which depressingly, is a possibility)
- They could also realise how they can exist together.

In the case of the latter, with freedom, it's possible for them to solve their problems themselves. It's not an overnight process - hell, in Europe we were at each others throats for centuries - and you could argue that we are still working and learning at it.


What the fuck does your 'value judgement' have to do with the people who have to suffer through being the playthings of the West?

Do you think they gain some sort of solace in the thought that you're sitting there on your fat arse happy to watch them suffer - even for a short term?

On the one hand - you have being the plaything of a murderous, totalitarian dictator - where a careless word or thought could see you and your entire family tortured and murdered. With no possibility of reprieve or respite.
On the other hand - you have "Being the playthings of the west" - where through bad luck, you might get you or your family shot or killed by an explosion. With the possibility of Peace and Freedom.

Ask yourself - which would you prefer? Torture and murder - with no possibility of change. Or take your chances with Bombs and bullets in the pursuit of freedom and peace?

And furthermore - the overwhelming consensus from people who've lived through such totalitarian regimes is rather interesting - They'd rather take their chances...

[Voltaire]

Red Rep how quaint.



Thread: North Korea

Dude, you couldn't be any less Voltaire-like if you tried. Open your fucking mind for a change.

[Katman]

Freedom is the idealism....

Like Mr Viking said a few posts earlier (and said it far more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could), there is a very high probability that these actions have nothing to do with the freedom of the people concerned.

[Katman]

And furthermore - the overwhelming consensus from people who've lived through such totalitarian regimes is rather interesting - They'd rather take their chances...

Really?

Have you spoken to them all?

[Katman]

Red Rep how quaint.

Dry your eyes princess.

[TheDemonLord]

Like Mr Viking said a few posts earlier (and said it far more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could), there is a very high probability that these actions have nothing to do with the freedom of the people concerned.

There's a point in there - but I don't think you can completely divorce the freedom aspect. In multiple threads I've acknowledged that one of the reason there are so many African warlords is because there is a lack of benefit for going in and getting rid of them.


Really?

Have you spoken to them all?

I've spoken to several - they generally have a great love for their country, a strong dislike for the dictator and a mild dislike for the west.

[Katman]

I've spoken to several - they generally have a great love for their country, a strong dislike for the dictator and a mild dislike for the west.

Several?

Out of how many?

[TheDemonLord]

Several?

Out of how many?

Several, from different areas.

I mean - if you've interviewed every single person from those countries - then sure, let's put it up against that....

However - as a secondary consideration - which way does the migration happen - are people jumping in rickety boats to enter these countries, or are they jumping in rickety boats to escape to the west?

That should speak to what their thoughts are on the matter.

[Katman]

I mean - if you've interviewed every single person from those countries - then sure, let's put it up against that....

I'm not the one claiming to know what the 'overwhelming concensus' is.


However - as a secondary consideration - which way does the migration happen - are people jumping in rickety boats to enter these countries, or are they jumping in rickety boats to escape to the west?

Are more leaving in rickety boats than are staying?

[Katman]

It's been estimated that upward of 10% of the Rohingya people have fled Myanmar fearing for their lives. (And I note that America hasn't done fuck all about that one).

What percentage of North Korean people have fled their country?

[pritch]

And yet...

It was Trump that did it.

Not Obama.
Not Bush Jr.
Not Clinton.
Not Bush Sr.
Not Reagan.
Not Carter.
Not Ford.
Not Nixon.
Not Johnson.
Not Kennedy.
Not Eisenhower
and Not Truman.

And whilst I'm sure sanctions, withdrawal of international support and the Death of Kim Jong Il all had a part to play, I also suspect that Trump's rhetoric directed at the Regime was ALSO a factor.

Maybe you should quit the electric puha. It isn't that DPRK wouldn't come to talks, in recent decades it's that the US didn't want to give them credibility. Trump just wanted a "win". Oh, and a new hotel and maybe a resort?

Now nobody except the two dictators (and their interpreters) know what was actually said and they are both telling a different story.

Smoke and mirrors.

[Katman]

Maybe you should quit the electric puha.

That's not what makes him sound so stupid.

[jasonu]

It's been estimated that upward of 10% of the Rohingya people have fled Myanmar fearing for their lives. (And I note that America hasn't done fuck all about that one).

What percentage of North Korean people have fled their country?

Estimated by who?
Did NZ do anything about it?
Egg.

[Katman]

Did NZ do anything about it?

Well we contributed $1.5 million in humanitarian aid. (Which miserable cunts like you probably still moaned about).

Meanwhile America's idea of aid is supplying Saudi Arabia with the means to bomb the fuck out of Yemen and supplying Israel with the means to slaughter stone throwing Palestinians.

[carbonhed]

Let's go back to the Middle East for a second.

In countries like Iraq you have many factions that appear to hate each other. Saddam Hussein (for all his faults) kept Iraq stable. And he did so via a totalitarian regime.



Damn! I must have dreamed the Iran Iraq war and the invasion of Kuwait and the gassing of the Kurds and... hang on a minute... never engage with a fucking retard on the internet... back slowly awaaaaay.

[Katman]

Damn! I must have dreamed the Iran Iraq war and the invasion of Kuwait and the gassing of the Kurds and... hang on a minute... never engage with a fucking retard on the internet... back slowly awaaaaay.

Comprehension's not your strongpoint, is it?

[Viking01]

http://www.atimes.com/article/the-key-word-in-the-trump-kim-show/

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not the one claiming to know what the 'overwhelming concensus' is.

It's a derived conclusion - consider a bell curve - the middle point is the average public opinion, then to the left and right you have the fringes. In the west we have people that are dissatisfied with the country they live in, and so they decide to emigrate - they then go through a long and ball-ache process to move. They exist at one of the fringes.

Now, despite how tedious the emigrtion process is, it's fairly safe, you get your belongings shipped over and you are guaranteed to be allowed in etc. This puts the relationship between where the fringe is and where the midpoint it. For our good friends at Syria (as an example), to escape the country they often did so at great personal risk to themselves, without being able to take all of their belongings and without any guarantee.

Then we look at the number of people that did this - it wasn't a small number - this tells us how far shifted the mid point of the bellcurve MUST be in order for so many people to risk so much - that's how I claim the overwhelming consensus.


Are more leaving in rickety boats than are staying?

See above - Bell Curves.

[TheDemonLord]

Maybe you should quit the electric puha. It isn't that DPRK wouldn't come to talks, in recent decades it's that the US didn't want to give them credibility. Trump just wanted a "win". Oh, and a new hotel and maybe a resort?

Now nobody except the two dictators (and their interpreters) know what was actually said and they are both telling a different story.

Smoke and mirrors.

I actually had to look up what Electric Puha was - It's been a while. The point is, they talked. That, in of itself, is historic. If Obama get's a prize for effectively SFA, then surely we can give some credit to Trump here - unless we are so biasedly partisan that we can't bring ourselves to speak the evil-ones name...

[Katman]

It's a derived conclusion - consider a bell curve - the middle point is the average public opinion, then to the left and right you have the fringes. In the west we have people that are dissatisfied with the country they live in, and so they decide to emigrate - they then go through a long and ball-ache process to move. They exist at one of the fringes.

Now, despite how tedious the emigrtion process is, it's fairly safe, you get your belongings shipped over and you are guaranteed to be allowed in etc. This puts the relationship between where the fringe is and where the midpoint it. For our good friends at Syria (as an example), to escape the country they often did so at great personal risk to themselves, without being able to take all of their belongings and without any guarantee.

Then we look at the number of people that did this - it wasn't a small number - this tells us how far shifted the mid point of the bellcurve MUST be in order for so many people to risk so much - that's how I claim the overwhelming consensus.



See above - Bell Curves.

What a load of absolute fucking bollocks. :killingme

Bell-end.

[TheDemonLord]

What a load of absolute Maths.

Fixed it for you, it also explains why you don't understand it...

[Katman]

Fixed it for you, it also explains why you don't understand it...

Seriously, you're like the pigeon who struts around knocking over all the chess pieces and then claims they've won.

[TheDemonLord]

Seriously, you're like the pigeon who struts around knocking over all the chess pieces and then claims they've won.

Sounds like a Conspiracy, maybe the Jews are genetically engineering the Pigeons...

[pritch]

I actually had to look up what Electric Puha was - It's been a while. The point is, they talked. That, in of itself, is historic. If Obama get's a prize for effectively SFA, then surely we can give some credit to Trump here - unless we are so biasedly partisan that we can't bring ourselves to speak the evil-ones name...

By now we should all be aware that Trump lies. A lot. One of his more or less recent ones, they just keep coming, relates to the military remains to be repatriated under this historic agreement. He said that he has been approached by parents grateful that the remains are coming home. Bearing in mind that Korean War veterans are now in their eighties, that places their parents at around 110 or more years old. Maybe he was using a ouija board?

I don't think it's bias to disbelieve Trump, it's the only appropriate response.

None of which means I consider Obama's Nobel Peace Prize other than premature. It would be hard to outdo that award for how inappropriate it transpired to be. Unless they gave one to Trump.

[oldrider]

http://www.atimes.com/article/the-key-word-in-the-trump-kim-show/

Dream a little - how would Hollywood play this out?

Trump needs world acclamation and support right now - opportunity for peace broker with Korean situation. - Peacemaker supreme wins the day with Korea. - Happy world media? :woohoo:

Success would open the door to further opportunity as peace broker with Palestinians and Israel? (World approval and great expectation?) :jerry:

Russian forces withdrawn from ME and return home to face off "apparent" threats from Ukraine and NATO? :rolleyes:

Despite best efforts Hezbollah and Iran queer the pitch leaving "no alternative" but military action in the interests of peace in the region - finally? :argh:

Totally frustrated world support for coalition action - driven by media? :violin:

"Reluctantly"? Western coalition "peace" forces take out Syria and Iran - Palestine has nobody left to turn to - capitulates to Israeli demands = peace? :wari::sunny::sunny:

Orchestrated? - never! :mellow:

[jasonu]

Seriously, you're like the pigeon who struts around knocking over all the chess pieces and then claims they've won.

and when the discussion doesn't go your way you resort to name calling and insults.
Egg.

[jasonu]

By now we should all be aware that Trump lies. A lot. One of his more or less recent ones, they just keep coming, relates to the military remains to be repatriated under this historic agreement. He said that he has been approached by parents grateful that the remains are coming home. Bearing in mind that Korean War veterans are now in their eighties, that places their parents at around 110 or more years old. Maybe he was using a ouija board?

I don't think it's bias to disbelieve Trump, it's the only appropriate response.

None of which means I consider Obama's Nobel Peace Prize other than premature. It would be hard to outdo that award for how inappropriate it transpired to be. Unless they gave one to Trump.

Put the Herald down mate.

[TheDemonLord]

By now we should all be aware that Trump lies. A lot. One of his more or less recent ones, they just keep coming, relates to the military remains to be repatriated under this historic agreement. He said that he has been approached by parents grateful that the remains are coming home. Bearing in mind that Korean War veterans are now in their eighties, that places their parents at around 110 or more years old. Maybe he was using a ouija board?

I don't think it's bias to disbelieve Trump, it's the only appropriate response.

None of which means I consider Obama's Nobel Peace Prize other than premature. It would be hard to outdo that award for how inappropriate it transpired to be. Unless they gave one to Trump.

And what of the lies that have been told about Trump by the MSM?

This is not to say that Trump is perfect, but so far - we've not had WW3, we've not had a total collapse of the Economy, He's signed executive orders to do what he said he would do, And he's accomplished something no other president has been able to.

I think he's doing alright for a president.

Also:

https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-nobel-peace-prize-two-norwegian-politicians-nominate/

*Smug Mode*

[Banditbandit]

Put the Herald down mate.

Even FOx News commentators (long time supporters of Trump) have slammed the deal ...

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/fox-news-host-shep-smith-slams-trump-over-north-korea-kim-jong-un-summit-2018-6?r=UK&IR=T

[Voltaire]

Even FOx News commentators (long time supporters of Trump) have slammed the deal ...

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/fox-news-host-shep-smith-slams-trump-over-north-korea-kim-jong-un-summit-2018-6?r=UK&IR=T

You can't quote Fox, you need to find some obscure clip on You Tube to show your not a sheeple.

What about the US Sunglasses Monopoly..... MSM is totally ignoring that.;)

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/companies-dominate-sunglass-market-luxottica-safilo-2017-8/

[husaberg]

You can't quote Fox, you need to find some obscure clip on You Tube to show your not a sheeple.

What about the US Sunglasses Monopoly..... MSM is totally ignoring that.;)

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/companies-dominate-sunglass-market-luxottica-safilo-2017-8/

It also needs to be pointing out the jewish conspiracy and their shapeshifting lizard overlords or it just isn't kosha............;)

[oldrider]

How's it going so far then? - :scratch:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZmInkxbvlCs" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jasonu]

Even FOx News commentators (long time supporters of Trump) have slammed the deal ...

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/fox-news-host-shep-smith-slams-trump-over-north-korea-kim-jong-un-summit-2018-6?r=UK&IR=T

Fox is a joke.

[pritch]

And what of the lies that have been told about Trump by the MSM?

This is not to say that Trump is perfect, but so far - we've not had WW3, we've not had a total collapse of the Economy, He's signed executive orders to do what he said he would do, And he's accomplished something no other president has been able to.

I think he's doing alright for a president.



That's a cozy little alternate reality you've constructed. May I suggest in case one of the other cult members offers you a Kool Aid, that you decline his kind offer. :whistle:

[TheDemonLord]

That's a cozy little alternate reality you've constructed. May I suggest in case one of the other cult members offers you a Kool Aid, that you decline his kind offer. :whistle:

Not at all, I'm happy to back every one of those statements:

Such as when they took an Audio excerpt where Trump was talking about MS-13 gang members, then judicially edited it, to make it sound like he was calling all Mexicans Animals. That's just one example of a deliberate lie (by ommission) by the MSM about Trump.

Not having WW3 - I'd think that statement was self-evident - but a quick google search shows a myriad of Mainstream publications stating that something Trump is doing or is going to do, will lead to WW3.

Economy is going good - yet a google search with just "Trump Economy collapse" produces multiple opinion pieces about how he's about to usher in something akin to the Great Depression

The Executive orders: Such as this one, to build a wall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13767)

And the last one - is the reason for this thread existing.

So pray tell Pritch - exactly WHERE is this "cozy little alternate reality you've constructed" - cause right now, I'm looking at objective facts, in line with what I said....

[Viking01]

http://tass.com/world/1009892

No doubt, more detail will emerge in due course.

[Voltaire]

Probably after he gets the Peace Prize.

https://i.imgflip.com/2adwo7.jpg

[Viking01]

1. Human Rights and Sanctions
https://www.globalresearch.ca/kims-resolve-to-put-the-past-behind-us-trumps-commitment-to-stop-the-war-games-what-next/5644721

A few other points to consider.

2. So What Price Must be Paid
https://www.globalresearch.ca/north-korea-what-price-peace/5644598

Was interested to see his conclusion. Though it seems he's not the only one.

http://www.atimes.com/article/sexy-metal-the-missing-element-in-the-korean-puzzle/

3. Those Damn Russkies
https://www.eurasiafuture.com/2018/06/20/south-korean-president-moon-endorses-russia-korea-transport-corridor/

Just not content to play soccer.

[Banditbandit]

Its All Gone Quiet on the NK Front

Of course it has - Trump already has the Nobel Prize - what else could he want?

[TheDemonLord]

what else could he want?

A better haircut?

[Swoop]

22 June 2018: After Kim Jong Un returned from his June 12th meeting with the American president in Singapore, senior North Korean officials were ordered to assemble and they were told that the Singapore meeting had been a tremendous success and that the economic problems would soon be solved and there would be no more joint training exercises in South Korea. There was no mention of getting rid of the nukes or the strict verification terms the Americans and South Koreans were demanding. Kim Jong Un has not said anything in public or for broadcast yet.

Worse was that no mention was made in North Koreans media that denuclearization and verification were the key demands of the Americans and have not been withdrawn. News of what really happened in Singapore will slowly but inevitably get into North Korea and spread. So Kim Jong Un has a short window (a few weeks) to correct his propaganda minions or face some serious blowback from the Americans and South Koreans. This time around North Korea must perform (and allow that to be continually verified) or there will be no payoff and North Korea will continue down its death spiral. People will look more towards the donju (market entrepreneurs) and disregard their own government as an obstacle to salvation rather than an agent of beneficial reform.

After returning from Singapore Kim did not have to worry about what his subordinates would be told. That had been decided before he left. What Kim did have to concentrate on his visit to China on the 19th, which is as important as the meeting with the American leader.

Kim Jong Un travelled to China on the 19th using his elderly Il-62 jet, which Kim had never used before (but other senior officials have) rather than using his private train. This trip was more open (to media) and relaxed than the last few. This is the second visit to China this year. The trip to Singapore was his first use of air travel since he took power. His father and grandfather also avoided air travel. The might have something to do with North Korean Cold War era efforts to plant bombs on aircraft used by South Korean leaders.

These days the aversion to air travel has more to do with fear of a coup by military leaders who have a long list of grievances against the Kim dynasty. The details of how this worked during the Singapore trip took more than a week to get outside North Korea. The first signs were the fact that Kim took two senior army leaders with him. He had never taken these fellows to China for his visits with the Chinese leader. Why take them to Singapore? It was another example of the old saying; “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”.
Kim has a lot of enemies in the military leadership because this privileged group has suffered more loss than any other segment of the senior leadership (the few percent of the population that keeps the Kims in power and lives well because of their services).
In order to keep the ballistic missile and nuclear weapons programs going the military has suffered the most obvious budget cuts during a period of continuing economic stagnation. For the troops, this means little or no new equipment and less fuel, food and other resources to keep the million troops going.

The dire poverty is creeping up the chain of command and the senior military leaders have to deal with more and more unrest in the ranks. Over the last few years, the reductions in food and fuel for the military have led to widespread hunger and low morale in most units. The junior and mid-level officers report the problems (and complain to each other) and notice that lower ranking officers and their families are now suffering from shortages and this privation is slowly moving upwards. Kim is aware of all this because his secret police are well taken care of and maintain a nationwide network of informants. This includes informants within the military and every military unit. So before he left Kim ordered the secret police to put eyes on a long list of senior military officers and to take their cell phones from these generals until he got back. Home leaves for all troops were cancelled while Kim was out of the country and the secret police informants in the military were ordered to report any suspicious move by officers immediately. Those under surveillance knew what was going on and behaved. Kim came back, his prepared propaganda declaring his success was rolled out and he got ready to visit China without all the precautions used for the Singapore trip.

Kim has replaced most of the senior military leaders since he took over in 2012 but knows the pool of potential replacements was full of unhappy officers who were not turned into pro-Kim officers with a promotion or two. The problem was that all officers start off as privates and must prove themselves as an enlisted soldier before becoming an officer. The junior officers (lieutenants and captains) command company size units (about 100 troops) and generally leave the military after ten years or so unless they get some promotions. The NCOs in the company size units also tend to get out after their ten years are up. These officers and NCOs have a lot in common and usually work closely together. These junior officers are suffering the most from the growing food shortages. The junior officers can get married the NCOs cannot and even though officers receive more food they have been getting less of it. The anger among the junior officers is noted by the mid-level officers (battalion and brigade commanders and staff officers) and these mid-level officers can identify with the junior officers.

This anger about the shortages and the measures taken (theft from local civilians, selling army equipment, taking bribes) to cope are seen as corrosive. These illegal practices are now so widespread that they are rarely punished and considered a matter of life and death for some units stationed in rural areas where the farmers have suffered from poor harvests. Many officers are desperate and often ask (among themselves) how their leaders could treat the defenders of the nation so badly. No wonder Kim Jong Un is so worried about his military. He cannot threaten his angry soldiers with nuclear weapons and he cannot risk a widespread “purge” of “subversive elements” because so many troops qualify as “subversive” because of their attitudes and desperate situation. Put more simply the military force Kim Jong Un fears most is his own, not the Chinese, American or South Koreans.

In North Korea, most people don’t know or care about the nuclear weapons. Basic needs like food, fuel and education for their children are more immediate issues. Among the North Koreans working in China (who often speak “off the record”) and the donju (entrepreneurs) and senior officials in North Korea know about the denuclearization and either back keeping the nukes or believe that giving up the nukes would bring more economic reforms as well as foreign aid and investment. The nukes are simply not as big an issue for most North Koreans because so many are living on the edge as a result of shortages.
North Korea also takes for granted that the news of peace talks is just more state propaganda and means nothing unless something actually happens to make their lives better. A growing number of North Korea see better trade relations with South Korea and the most worthy goal, especially if it led to reunification and North Koreans living as well as South Koreas. A growing number of North Koreans are learning that South Koreans are even wealthier than the Chinese and that knowledge involves a degree of national pride because China has always been a potential threat to Korea.

Since all the peace talk activity began in May China has greatly reduced border security. There are far fewer police and soldiers patrolling the border and China based smugglers are back in business. On the North Korean side of the border security has been increased. But North Korea security personnel are easier to bribe, so with fewer problems on the Chinese side the smugglers are back in business. There has also been more legitimate commerce with more North Korean going to China on business or to work.

The meeting between the two (north and south) Korean leaders in April was mostly about good will because both sides agreed the real work on a peace deal would come with the meeting between the North Korean and American leader in June and, more importantly, the meetings between senior American and North Korean officials to work out details on what their heads of state would agree to at Singapore on June 12th.

China has assured the United States that China wants North Korean nukes gone but China is in a better position (politically, culturally and physically) to work out and enforce the details of denuclearization. The Americans insist on CVID (Complete, Verifiable, Irreversible Denuclearization) and the Chinese say they agree. But it appears there will be no detailed timetable for the entire process, even though the Americans and South Koreans don’t want to start shipping aid to North Korea before they have something verifiable to show for it.
This part could get messy on several levels but at least the Americans have an experienced negotiator. The lead U.S. negotiator is the American Secretary of State who was previously the head of the CIA. This puts the North Koreans on the defensive since none of their usual negotiating stunts will work. At the very least this will speed the process along, whether it is succeeding or not. The U.S. negotiator is to visit the two Koreas before the end of June. Working closely with South Korea is important because the South Koreans have excellent intel on what is going on inside North Korea and the South Koreans have to sign off on many of the negotiating goals (especially those covering South Korean aid).

[oldrider]

Flip flop flip flop Donald today? - or tomorrow? :confused: https://stephenlendman.org/2018/06/trump-again-calls-north-korea-a-nuclear-threat/ what will it be? :scratch:

[Viking01]

What More Could You Want ?

https://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-message-to-north-korea-denuclearize-accept-neoliberalism-and-the-vietnam-miracle-meanwhile-kim-remains-on-the-cia-assassination-list/5646853

[oldrider]

What More Could You Want ?

https://www.globalresearch.ca/washingtons-message-to-north-korea-denuclearize-accept-neoliberalism-and-the-vietnam-miracle-meanwhile-kim-remains-on-the-cia-assassination-list/5646853

Is there anybody left in the world who can not now see clearly who are the real world wide terrorists? :rolleyes:

Is the US now ‘The’ Rogue Nation on the planet? - https://www.veteranstoday.com/2018/07/03/is-the-us-now-the-rouge-nation-on-the-planet/ :scratch: . :yes:

[Viking01]

Trump has been a little busy recently, what with NATO, the UK visit and
then Helsinki. In the meantime, others have been using the time getting
ready for possible NK re-integration.

http://www.atimes.com/article/a-kimdom-awaits-china-and-south-korea-get-down-to-business/

You never know. NK and SK may just come to some "agreement" independent
of the US, assuming SK military and politicians have the willingness to do so -
and the fortitude to risk being sanctioned by the US.

[oldrider]

Only Syria/(Cuba?) and Iran to go now almost got the jackpot - "Give me control of the finances of the world I care not who makes the laws!" - Rothschild.

<iframe width="922" height="519" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/90xD71ANvEA" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Viking01]

Andre Vltchek is a Russian investigative journalist who has visited many
countries disliked or ostracised by the West.

An article plus a 25 minute video clip of his recent visit to North Korea.

If nothing else, interesting to see (at 14 min mark) a speech by a former
US Attorney General to a NK audience.

https://journal-neo.org/2018/07/27/releasing-my-north-korean-documentary-film-to-my-readers/

Other articles are present on his website:

http://andrevltchek.weebly.com/articles.html

[Viking01]

Those Russkies ! Just can't help themselves.

When they're not poking their nose into other country's elections, they're busy
talking about peace and promotion of trade. Meddle, meddle, meddle.

Koreas
http://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/trilateral-cooperation/

Who knows after that? Next they'll be linking up railways and building gas pipelines.

Japan
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-Relations/Putin-s-olive-branch-fails-to-impress-Japan

Both look like long roads, with many steps to take. But there are some points
along the way, which could deliver mutual benefit. If some are willing to change
their current thinking (and behaviour).

[Viking01]

http://www.atimes.com/article/moon-lands-in-pyongyang-for-high-stakes-summit-with-kim/

It is interesting to see the increasing amount of interaction between the two Koreas,
and that business teams will accompany the SK politicians on this round of talks.

The simple fact exists that both parties are Korean, and despite differences between
their current political and economic structures, the current enforced separation is but
a relatively "short" time blip within the overall history of Korea.

If they come to some agreement over future handling of events that could lead to
military escalation and NK continues to be seen as "positive towards engagement",
this would obviously help in building of mutual trust between NK and SK. Which is
an important ingredient in any political rapprochement.

Promising signs. Still very early days, and a long road ahead.

But it poses the question "what is to stop NK and SK agreeing to relax border controls,
and to start progressive integration ?" (at least on an economic trade basis, as was
happening earlier at Kaesong ).

Economic Benefits

Recent effort by both China and Russia have indicated significant economic benefits
to SK (e.g. supply of Russian gas by pipeline through NK to SK ; railway traffic for
for SK trade goods to Europe via NK and Russia ; shipping to Europe via the Arctic
Circle).

Proposal for development of factories using NK labour, operating with special trade
zones in northern NK (close to borders with both China and Russia).

Level of Integration

This doesn't imply that their political systems would rapidly converge, or that their
military forces would combine any time soon, but energy supply, trade and tourism
would seem ideal factors to start the integration process.

Extended Korean Integration

Unlikely to occur unless five main groups (NK, SK, China, Russia, and the US) can
come to some level of mutual agreement.

While Japan has some unresolved issues with NK (hostages?) and continues to make
noise in the background, Japan will have little weight in any decision making. [Japan's
Abe was forced to ask Trump to pose questions to Kim on Japan's behalf during the
first US - NK summit]

1. NK: Kim recognises NK has been a "closed country" for too long, and that both the
country (and his regime) are dependent upon NK opening up, developing its resources,
trading on a global market and improving his people's lot. Certain NK resources are
highly sought after (e.g. rare earths).

2. SK: The current position of SK military, intelligence and conservatives is not
very clear, other than that they have been very resistant to Korean reunification
to date. Understandable given past military confrontations.

But as older generations pass (old memories disappear) and current politics favouring
integration "take root" (if permitted), a popular ground swell for Korean integration
could easily grow.

As trade wars slowly unpack in Asia and the global financial situation becomes more
uncertain, it is likely that SK chaebols will continue looking to diversify, and to seek
to trade more with countries or regions outside the US (e.g. China, Russia, Europe).

There is the risk SK could become collateral damage during the US-China trade war.
South Koreans with memory longer than twenty years may remember what happened
to SK businesses during the currency wars of the late 1990's (i.e. the US and the IMF
were not SK's friend).

3. China: NK's prime sponsor and guarantor. Willing to be involved with establishment
of special economic trade zones involving NK and SK.

http://valdaiclub.com/a/highlights/trilateral-cooperation/

Also keen to avoid a regional war, NK regime collapse and a potential flood of NK
refugees across the border into China.

4. Russia: Also acting as a sponsor and guarantor of NK. Willing to be involved with
(i) establishment of road, rail and gas pipeline infrastructure within the whole of
the Korean peninsula (ii) supporting oil and gas development off the NK coast, and
(iii) supply of Russian LNG from Yamal to both Koreas.

Also Willing to be involved with the establishment of special economic trade zones
involving NK and SK, as well as support Korean use of rail links (OBOR) and shipping
of goods to Europe (via the Arctic Circle).

5. The US: In effect, the main hurdle to the integration of NK and SK, and their
combined engagement with China and Russia.

Effectively using the 1953 Korean Armistice (US signing a formal peace treaty) as a
political lever on both NK and SK (and enforced by US troops permanently stationed
in SK).

http://time.com/5360343/korean-war-american-history/

Stationing of nuclear weapons in SK, plus the recent introduction of new long range
radar and missile systems to SK (able to see into and strike China). In effect, a land
based "US aircraft carrier". [Just as with Japan]

The US is able to conduct periodic military exercises in very close proximity to NK.
It is able to use SK bases to project a US military presence into the Chinese backyard
(i.e. Taiwan ; FONOPS in the South China Sea) to assist in the containment of China.
[Similar to expansion of NATO in eastern Europe towards Russia]

Direct control over SK military by the US in event of war (reporting to US regional
command).

US has strong interest in gaining access, control and exploitation of specific NK
resources. Hence Trump's 4 minute "economic benefits" video shown to Kim during
their summit. If nothing else, seek to deny access to resources to US competitors
such as China. [Just as currently occurring in Africa]

Easily willing and able to take counter-productive action (a false flag event) if
negotiations are not to their liking. Quickly able to destroy political trust and
goodwill being built up between NK and SK.

Continued US insistence that NK must achieve full denuclearisation itself before
the US would even consider the removal of US sanctions (let alone sign a formal
peace treaty). No route map and all one-way traffic at the moment, without any
guarantee to NK of any meaningful reward at the end of the process. Consequent
NK loss of nuclear deterence, currently inhibiting unilateral military action by the
US against NK.

6. External Factors to Consider:

-Increasing capability to trade and settle in other currencies (e.g. yuan, rouble
and euro) --> Reduced dependence upon the USD, and less susceptible to US
interference.

-Increasing usage of alternative market trading systems and settlement systems (e.g.
Chinese CIPS) --> Reduced dependence upon SWIFT, and to US interference.

-Proposed sale of US LNG into Asian energy market (seeking to lock out Russian supply
to the Asian market).

-US political uncertainty (i.e. who is actually in charge of the US political asylum,
and what is the likelihood of getting sign-off and meaningful US observance of any
agreement - given recent US withdrawal from the Iranian JCPOA ?)

-Willingness for various countries to consider current UN sanctions on NK as unfair,
and to simply ignore UN sanctions and start transacting business with NK (in advance
of full denuclearisation on NK's part).

Edit: Just noted immediately after posting

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201809191068152005-north-south-korea-will-sign-agreement/

[Viking01]

https://www.globalresearch.ca/moon-jae-in-and-kim-jong-un-meet-in-pyongyang-preamble-to-a-north-south-peace-agreement-repeal-of-the-rok-us-combined-forces-command-cfc/5654481

[Viking01]

The peace train continues on its journey. Wonder how long before it gets
halted or derailed.

https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/10/10/china-and-russia-formally-urge-un-security-council-to-moderate-sanctions-against-dprk/

[Viking01]

https://www.rt.com/usa/440933-pompeo-pouts-korean-peace/

[Viking01]

It's a difficult job being a global hegemon these days. It would be
so much easier if they'd just do as they were told.

http://www.atimes.com/article/trump-bangs-table-as-seoul-differs-over-nth-korea-sanctions/

http://www.atimes.com/article/north-south-military-deal-has-alarm-bells-ringing/

[Swoop]

Since 1953 the four kilometre wide DMZ (demilitarized zone) has provided an impenetrable 250 kilometre barrier across the Korean peninsula. Now, for the first time, there are serious efforts by both Koreas to demilitarize the DMZ. This will include removing all the landmines in the DMZ and reconnecting roads and railroads that have been cut by the DMZ. The North Korean side of the DMZ has always been a “military zone” although the need for food has led to farming close to the DMZ.
Then there are the landmines and the DMZ is so heavily patrolled on both sides that there has never been any smuggling to speak of. On the southern side there was fifteen kilometre wide military buffer zone that excluded most civilian activity. In 2008 South Korea agreed that zone was could be reduced to ten kilometres, which allowed valuable (at least near Seoul) property to be developed. South Korea is willing to proceed on these DMZ issues even if North Korea is not making any real progress on denuclearization.

South Korea believes the North Korean economy is in such bad shape that the north risks economic and political collapse if they do not denuclearize. Unfortunately Kim Jong Un appears capable of taking that chance which is why the Americans and many South Koreans argue against the Chinese and Russian suggestion that partial progress deserves partial economic aid. That does not work because that enables Kim to keep his dictatorship going longer and continue to hold onto his nukes while still pretending to negotiate.

Kim has some legitimate fears. He knows that Ukraine agreed, in 1994, to give up its nukes if the United States and Russia agreed to guarantee the integrity of Ukraine. Russia broke that deal in 2014 when they seized (and annexed) Crimea and is still trying to annex portions of eastern Ukraine. Kim is seeking a guarantee that his dynasty will not be attacked. Kim also sees the American resumption of sanctions on Iran as unacceptable. The Americans see that as the price you pay for cheating and if Kim wants commerce he will have to keep his end of the bargain. Iran did not. No one in the West, especially the Americans, is willing to make “guaranteeing Kim family rule of North Korea” part of the denuclearization deal. The Americans are thinking of something like the South African denuclearization, which worked. That’s why most people are unaware of it.
Good news is not news and not a major part of the historical record either.

North Korea is estimated to have anywhere from five to 60 nukes. The design of these nukes is primitive and it is uncertain if there is a workable design that will stand the rigors of use in a ballistic missile warhead. In short the north has nukes but delivering them is still a problem. Kim seems willing to let North Koreans suffer a lot more to prolong negotiations in the hope of getting a deal that will allow North Korea to keep some nukes. Even if he is not officially allowed to have some nukes, Kim considers it a win if the final deal enables him to hide some nukes somewhere. The Americans are determined to avoid that scenario but Kim feels he can manipulate South Korea into allowing loose enough inspection rules to let Kim get away with it. Obtaining an effective deal won’t be half as interesting as what sort of process was required to achieve it.

The first snows and freezing weather have arrived in North Korea. The harvest this year was less than last year. In some parts of the country it was so bad that local officials demanded that farmers give up part of their private plot’s harvest to make up for the shortfalls. This causes more anger in the countryside. Bad news for farmers is even worse for North Korea as a whole. The economy is getting worse because of the sanctions. This is easier to measure because there is so much more free market activity in the country and that is easier to measure accurately. In addition to prices of staples in the free markets there are also prices for apartments and houses. This has become big business because of the rise of the donju (entrepreneur) class.

Free market housing prices are down and the decline has followed the imposition and enforcement of new sanctions. Housing prices have dropped a third or more since early 2018.
In some situations prices have gone up. Bribes demanded from government officials have increased, especially what it costs to obtain membership in the WPK (Workers’ Party of Korea). Membership used to be given only to the most trustworthy and eager believers in the North Korean dictatorship. That still applies but the party doesn’t pay off as well as it used to and more things are for sale. That makes party membership more valuable in some parts of the country where bribery is a major activity for party officials. Bribes have become more difficult to obtain because North Koreans in general have less money.

In an effort to reduce police (including secret police) bribery the government has ordered an end (or sharp reductions in) to punishment of those caught owning South Korean goods. Family members of party officials are responsible for much of the demand for South Korean goods and too many of these people were getting hassled by the police over the use of South Korean products. At the same time the North Korean media makes a big deal out of leader Kim Jong Un meeting with his South Korean counterpart and this has made all things South Korean more politically acceptable even though the mere existence of the superior South Korean goods does not reflect well on North Korea.

The ongoing Chinese anti-corruption campaign hit the North Korean border in late September and North Korean customs and border security personnel cooperated. On the Chinese side border officials known to be corrupt were arrested and patrols on the river and along the shore were increased. Border police patrolled in pairs to make it less likely they could be bribed. With the Chinese side of the border locked down it was not much of a sacrifice for the North Koreans to tighten security on their side. The Chinese were keeping score of North Koreans attempting to get across and past Chinese security and apparently threatened to interfere with government approved North Korean smuggling if North Korea did not demonstrate some real cooperation in locking down the border to smugglers. It is understood that the smuggling will eventually return but it will take months and the bribes will be higher. Currently it is still possible to smuggle goods across the river but there are fewer opportunities and the risks of getting caught (and having to pay very high fines) are higher. As a practical matter that makes it uneconomical to smuggle the vast majority of things that are normally involved.

[Viking01]

https://www.dw.com/en/south-korean-president-falls-short-lobbying-for-pyongyang-in-europe/a-46019592

[Viking01]

What ? Stopping hostile military action against one another ?
Is this peace starting to break out ?

Heaven forbid. We can't have that. Where's my false flag.

https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/11/01/the-korean-peace-process-is-now-irreversible/

[Viking01]

https://www.rt.com/newsline/443409-korea-rail-roads-pyongyang/

[Viking01]

http://www.atimes.com/article/moon-expects-concrete-outcome-at-north-korea-us-summit/