Well that's a new one...

[Pound]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/103185831/hamilton-teen-failed-restricted-licence-test-because-fuel-light-turned-on


I can ride 80km on my Fireblade after the fuel light goes on. .....:rolleyes:

[TheDemonLord]

this?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/103185831/hamilton-teen-failed-restricted-licence-test-because-fuel-light-turned-on

[caspernz]

Nah not really, it's part of the pre-check that's expected. Thou shalt have enough fuel for the intended journey. How VTNZ T/O dealt with it could have been better. You'll get a ticket for running out of fuel on a motorway after all...

[TheDemonLord]

Pound - you're really not having much luck with editing posts today are you!

[Pound]

Pound - you're really not having much luck with editing posts today are you!



ARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :brick:

[neels]

It seems the testers are actively looking for reasons to fail people, or in the case of our son who failed twice with the same tester actually making things up that aren't in the NZTA test guide, it's almost like it's good for business having people paying for repeat tests or something....

These people have done the right thing making a complaint, we did the same and when there was a dickhead response from VTNZ continued up to NZTA, ended up with a refund of 2 test fees.

[Scuba_Steve]

It seems the testers are actively looking for reasons to fail people, or in the case of our son who failed twice with the same tester actually making things up that aren't in the NZTA test guide, it's almost like it's good for business having people paying for repeat tests or something....

These people have done the right thing making a complaint, we did the same and when there was a dickhead response from VTNZ continued up to NZTA, ended up with a refund of 2 test fees.

Just like the WoF system the licence testers have a fail quota to meet. Still say hand the licencing over to computas then you pass/fail on your own skill level not a arbitrary quota or how good your tits look that day

[GazzaH]

Just like the WoF system the licence testers have a fail quota to meet. Still say hand the licencing over to computas then you pass/fail on your own skill level not a arbitrary quota or how good your tits look that day

Years ago, I tried to get my employer interested in making driving simulators that could be used worldwide for this very purpose. They made simulators for a large commercial market and were making so much money doing so that my idea didn't even get a look-in. Not a peep.

I'm with you, Scuba. On a decent sim, every physical parameter of the person's driving can be measured - reaction times, steering responses, braking pressure, speed, signalling, following distance, stopping distance, reaction to skids, observation, whatever ... all while navigating a computer-generated but highly realistic course, complete with all manner of situations and challenges. Night driving? Easy. Ice? Snow? Kids chasing balls? Motorcyclists lane-splitting? Easy peasy, and all perfectly safe (aside from the realistic shock factor!). The sim could randomize the course so no two runs are the same, and adapt the challenges according to the driver's reactions, exploring any problem areas in more depth.

[T.W.R]

Years ago, I tried to get my employer interested in making driving simulators that could be used worldwide for this very purpose. They made simulators for a large commercial market and were making so much money doing so that my idea didn't even get a look-in. Not a peep.

I'm with you, Scuba. On a decent sim, every physical parameter of the person's driving can be measured - reaction times, steering responses, braking pressure, speed, signalling, following distance, stopping distance, reaction to skids, observation, whatever ... all while navigating a computer-generated but highly realistic course, complete with all manner of situations and challenges. Night driving? Easy. Ice? Snow? Kids chasing balls? Motorcyclists lane-splitting? Easy peasy, and all perfectly safe (aside from the realistic shock factor!). The sim could randomize the course so no two runs are the same, and adapt the challenges according to the driver's reactions, exploring any problem areas in more depth.

Force Dynamics have been doing it for a while :yes:

https://www.force-dynamics.com/

[AllanB]

There are some silly stories coming out of CHCH of fails. Car is too dirty ..... that type of shit.

[sidecar bob]

Just like the WoF system the licence testers have a fail quota to meet.

Fake news alert.

[GazzaH]

Force Dynamics have been doing it for a while :yes:

https://www.force-dynamics.com/


It seems they make driving sims, yes, but do they do the measurement and assessment stuff?

Imagine being able to teach and check out learner drivers purely on a good sim, with no need to let them loose on the road until they achieve a basic standard.

Imagine being able to recreate accident scenarios and measure the reactions of a bunch of drivers, to see whether any of them would have avoided the prangs, or made them even worse.

A world of possibilities.

[eldog]

Do they fail them if they get a flat?
unable to change a tyre?

[HEsch]

During my CBTA testing, we stopped at a petrol station in the warm-up/lesson part ;)
Much better system.

[T.W.R]

It seems they make driving sims, yes, but do they do the measurement and assessment stuff?

Imagine being able to teach and check out learner drivers purely on a good sim, with no need to let them loose on the road until they achieve a basic standard.

Imagine being able to recreate accident scenarios and measure the reactions of a bunch of drivers, to see whether any of them would have avoided the prangs, or made them even worse.

A world of possibilities.

With applying it to a proper assessment system there'd be plenty of software suitable to measure & assess drivers.
These guys use a less advanced simulator for driving assessment...DrivewiseBC

https://drivewisebc.com/driving-simulator/

[onearmedbandit]

Just like the WoF system the licence testers have a fail quota to meet.

Seriously? Where did you hear of a fail quota for WoF's??


Fake news alert.

Ex-fuckin-actly.

[Katman]

Seriously? Where did you hear of a fail quota for WoF's??



Ex-fuckin-actly.

Well it's not a quota as such, but the NZTA inspector that did my last assessment told me that if any issuing authority fails less than 10% of their inspections, NZTA starts to take a closer look at them.

[onearmedbandit]

Well it's not a quota as such, but the NZTA inspector that did my last assessment told me that if any issuing authority fails less than 10% of their inspections, NZTA starts to take a closer look at them.

Worded like that I can believe that.

[Scuba_Steve]

Seriously? Where did you hear of a fail quota for WoF's??


Mate that works at the PN VTNZ.
It came down to like Katman said but I was told they were expected to be round 20% fail

[onearmedbandit]

Mate that works at the PN VTNZ.
It came down to like Katman said but I was told they were expected to be round 20% fail

Yeah the way KM worded it made it make sense, more of an expectation than a quota.

[jasonu]

Do they fail them if they get a flat?
unable to change a tyre?

They fucking should!!!

[jasonu]

Speaking of driving instructors...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWO7CMF5otY

[Scuba_Steve]

Yeah the way KM worded it made it make sense, more of an expectation than a quota.

I use "quota" cause it's a bullshit thing anyways vehicles should either pass or fail on own merits just like people should with their licences as against, again, a made up "performance target" that the testers are expected to meet

[Banditbandit]

I use "quota" cause it's a bullshit thing anyways vehicles should either pass or fail on own merits

Yeah - maybe ... LTNZ knows about 20% of the vehicles on the road are not WOF standard. Therefore, if all vehicles are going for a WOF test - about 20% should be failed.


Now some garages may fail more, because they get rougher cars, while some garages will fail less - they get better cars to test.

So if you have less than 10% they will come and look ... 10% is on the low side .. gives the garage a bit of leeway ..

Same for traffic tickets - about 10% of all cars on the road at any specified time are doing something illegal - they know how may cars are on the road at any one time - so they know how many drivers are breaking the law - and should be stopped by police. Given that the police are not watching everyone everywhere all the time - the chances of catching all illegal drivers is ZERO - but they have a good idea how many can be caught ...

Did you know that three out of every five bikes on the road is somehow illegal - incorrect licence, no licence, no WoF .. speeding - pick one or two. So a cop stopping a bike has a three out of five chances of issuing a ticket - for cars it's about 1 in 5.

There are no quotas for traffic cops - but those who drop in ticket numbers will be spoken to. And if your numbers are dropping - stop the bikes - better than average chance of giving tickets ..

[TheDemonLord]

I remember Dawn from Rider Training saying something like that she started recording all her CBTA rides - as she was failing less than the typical fail rate (which was due to the excellent riding training that they provided for most riders) - and the authorities were questioning her pass rates - so she had proof that they were meeting the standard.

[sidecar bob]

I use "quota" cause it's a bullshit thing anyways vehicles should either pass or fail on own merits just like people should with their licences as against, again, a made up "performance target" that the testers are expected to meet

It's not a performance target.
The auditor (probably the same guy that looks at Katman) told me, that based on the demographic of client/vehicle my business targeted, that the expectation of that age of vehicle/socioeconomic situation, dictated based on statistics a certain failure rate as the norm.
He explained that a new car dealership, servicing cars up to six years old had a virtually nil failure rate expectation. A lower socioecinomic area, where people drive old shitters & are too stupid to be proactive about their own safety (not his exact words) may have a 80 percent failure expectation.
It's not a target, but there would be a red flag raised if a garage in the middle of shitsville didn't fail any cars that were over 20 years old with 200plus kms on them.

[Coldrider]

Fail a WOF, then can't get rego, plus original problem for WOF fail, escalates very quickly.

[Coldrider]

There was a story in the media in ChCh some months back that cops prowled the poorer sides of town more because there was a greater chance of issuing tickets. Dont forget that boy racers would be easy to ticket too.thats called profiling. By the way boyravers dont even exist in ticketing statistics, just media hype, like dog and lemon author tosspot calling bikers yobbos on a mission to self exit.

[neels]

thats called profiling. Or a case of police who are on traffic duty and not finding any trade, and probability.

[Coldrider]

Or a case of police who are on traffic duty and not finding any trade, and probability.

Works both ways, depends on available time and fun to be had. The smart ones check out the plate and peel off, the thickos (majority) want a rumble. There is also bikes stopped to checkout whether stolen or are funded by crime.

[jasonu]

There was a story in the media in ChCh some months back that cops prowled the poorer sides of town more because there was a greater chance of issuing tickets. .

Some (on here) would call that profiling. I call it good sense. If it is known that a particular area is full of old shitters then that is where the fuzz should hang out.

[sidecar bob]

There was a story in the media in ChCh some months back that cops prowled the poorer sides of town more because there was a greater chance of issuing tickets

They would be stupid if they didn't. How was that even newsworthy?

[Voltaire]

They would be stupid if they didn't. How was that even newsworthy?

Shouldn't you be out living the dream instead of hanging out with the deadwood* on the internet?

* previously found in front of tele or at the pub.

[Banditbandit]

They would be stupid if they didn't. How was that even newsworthy?

Exactly - just as it would be very pointless and a waste of time to patrol areas where crime is not happening.

More chance of caching bad guys and stopping crime if you spend time in areas where crime happens.

[Scuba_Steve]

Exactly - just as it would be very pointless and a waste of time to patrol areas where crime is not happening.

More chance of caching bad guys and stopping crime if you spend time in areas where crime happens.

Poor people don't have WoF/Rego, rich people are dangerous drivers.
It's not "where the crime is happening" it's just where the easy targets are

[TheDemonLord]

Exactly - just as it would be very pointless and a waste of time to patrol areas where crime is not happening.

More chance of caching bad guys and stopping crime if you spend time in areas where crime happens.

Apparently - that's called Racism these days...

[neels]

Poor people don't have WoF/Rego, rich people are dangerous drivers.
It's not "where the crime is happening" it's just where the easy targets are
Nope.

There are fuckwits, regardless of their socio-economic status.

For a policeman, there are better odds in certain parts of town, however the fuckwit in the porsche is more likely to lose his licence on the spot.

[sidecar bob]

Poor people don't have WoF/Rego, rich people are dangerous drivers.


Not sure I agree. I dont see much dangerous driving in my neighbourhood.;)

[Grumph]

Not sure I agree. I dont see much dangerous driving in my neighbourhood.;)

Next time you're down here, I'll take you for a coffee in Merivale - Brownlee country - and you can watch the Lexus, Mercedes and Audis bounce off each other....

[onearmedbandit]

Next time you're down here, I'll take you for a coffee in Merivale - Brownlee country - and you can watch the Lexus, Mercedes and Audis bounce off each other....

Really? Spent a lot of time in that area and never seen what you are referring to.

[Grumph]

Really? Spent a lot of time in that area and never seen what you are referring to.

Papanui Rd/Merivale village, wealthy housewives with phone in one hand and coffee in the other looking for a park.....
Pick the right time and you see them.

[sidecar bob]

Next time you're down here, I'll take you for a coffee in Merivale - Brownlee country - and you can watch the Lexus, Mercedes and Audis bounce off each other....

Thats ironic. Merivale in Tauranga is a right shithole

[T.W.R]

Thats ironic. Merivale in Tauranga is a right shithole

Same in ChCh and it's full of A/holes

[husaberg]

Thats ironic. Merivale in Tauranga is a right shithole
Is Merivale the Maori name for Tauranga Bob:msn-wink:

[R650R]

A driving test is about your ability to follow a set of instructions and rules for an hour or so and not scare the tester doing so. Remember the previous test regime was too easy hence the new system.

Maybe just like the cops issuing 4km tolerance tickets, some people are being failed for picky things because perhaps their driving is intrinsically incompetent but doesn't fall into specific category...
A lot of the wawa is probably the modern thing of people being unable to own their own mistakes.... and of course every persons kid is a great driver cause they taught them....

At work our training and assessment regimes can be scrutinised by OSH going back up to two years if a serious workplace accident... expect licence testers to be under similar thing, imagine that pressure with the high likelihood of a new driver having a crash....

[F5 Dave]

See Greg's got me thinking. Maybe driver training and the actual test should be done juggling a coffee and a conversation with your bestie about Shazzas boyfriend, or for the blokes with a steaming hot steak and cheese with can of coke. Like real world training.

[Grumph]

See Greg's got me thinking. Maybe driver training and the actual test should be done juggling a coffee and a conversation with your bestie about Shazzas boyfriend, or for the blokes with a steaming hot steak and cheese with can of coke. Like real world training.

Good to know someone reads me...I'd reckon that the licence test will become a two stage one fairly soon. First stage in a simulator - pass that and you get out on the road for stage two. Serious pilot training is so expensive now it's simulator based, it's only a matter of time for drivers licences too.
Wouldn't like the job of cleaning the simulator though Dave, given spilt coffee and pie.

[george formby]

Good to know someone reads me...I'd reckon that the licence test will become a two stage one fairly soon. First stage in a simulator - pass that and you get out on the road for stage two. Serious pilot training is so expensive now it's simulator based, it's only a matter of time for drivers licences too.
Wouldn't like the job of cleaning the simulator though Dave, given spilt coffee and pie.

Yeah, I've been an advocate of simulators since the Sega Rally game was in arcades. They would also make re-testing at licence renewal time feasible.
Not sure how a bike simulator would work. I'm happy to be a tester.

After seeing some unbelievable driving lately, on my morning commute, I think drug testing should be part of the test. No cognisant person would do some of the things I've seen.

[F5 Dave]

Good to know someone reads me...I'd reckon that the licence test will become a two stage one fairly soon. First stage in a simulator - pass that and you get out on the road for stage two. Serious pilot training is so expensive now it's simulator based, it's only a matter of time for drivers licences too.
Wouldn't like the job of cleaning the simulator though Dave, given spilt coffee and pie.

I was thinking along the lines of a giant gladwrap dispenser. Either that or send in a couple of Kunekune pigs.

[F5 Dave]

On a more serious note a simulator that you can practice heavy braking and avoidance would be good. And some heavy solenoids to simular how violent an accident can be.

I was on a bus yesterday going up north and some poor woman apparently lost control (I was in seat facing the other way) and bounced off our front.
I met her shortly after and she was not having a good day.

[george formby]

On a more serious note a simulator that you can practice heavy braking and avoidance would be good. And some heavy solenoids to simular how violent an accident can be.



Exacary. They can replicate poor light, rain, even getting a puncture. Chuck in a few real world scenarios to avoid, head on traffic would be a goody, and it would make the testing a lot more thorough.

[F5 Dave]

Actually if they were good enough go pay $20 per 1/2 hr , as many times as you want to, but then have to sit a 5min test annually just after the last session.

[george formby]

Actually if they were good enough go pay $20 per 1/2 hr , as many times as you want to, but then have to sit a 5min test annually just after the last session.

Gamer drives for real. (https://www.gamespot.com/articles/meet-the-gran-turismo-player-now-driving-race-cars-for-real/1100-6419397/)

It's interestin territory.

Won't do much for driving instructor business, though.

[F5 Dave]

Like I give a shit about that.
That said one could imagine driver training would continue with interactive (human) instructions.
" Turn into the slide Mrs Coldsbottom. "