Are Brexit and Trump the biggest ever embarrasments!

[Laava]

As above, it seems most people in the UK are so sick of this fiasco, and it is making their country look weak.
And then Trump, how is this idiot still allowed to be their leader?
International fails of the highest order!

[jasonu]

As above, it seems most people in the UK are so sick of this fiasco, and it is making their country look weak.
And then Trump, how is this idiot still allowed to be their leader?
International fails of the highest order!

Great post sista....

[oldrider]

Well, here are two of them the Poms left (Brexit?) so couldn't find them:- https://twitter.com/i/status/1169766594064584704 - :no:

[Laava]

My american neighbours were full of praise for the Trumpster pre election, and now it is a bit of a sore point for them. And before people start to go on about how Hilary would not have been any better, well that's probably right too. We were in alaska recently, and this is the state that put up Sarah Palin remember, and there is no way you could get the locals to even talk about politics. Might have been because of the canadians we were with at the time...a week before that, in the UK and same deal re brexit.
Is going to be interesting to see what the coming year brings that's for sure!

[ellipsis]

...we can't even sort out our own politics...leave the international shit out...so many problems here, and other peoples hurricanes or socio iniquities or wank fuck puppet,comedic, leaders, are on your mind...nah...


...business and economy?...hahahaha...

[austingtir]

The problem isnt Trump or Brexit.

Its the globalists in the EU and the deepstate sellouts in the states that are running interference and telling the media to hyperventilate at every little thing Boris and Trump do.


If they started hanging people for Treason like they used to all these problems would cease to exist very quickly.

[TheDemonLord]

Trump's all good.

Brexit is only an issue because the majority of Parliament don't actually want to leave. It's like putting Vegans in charge of the Annual Steak and Beef festival and wondering why it's failing.



However why Brexit isn't an Embarrassment goes deeper:

You've had Labour for the better part of 3 years demanding that they call a General Election.

So BoJo the Brexiteer Offers them one - suddenly, silence.

They call Bojo a Dictator for his Proroguing of Parliament, yet he's a Dictator that offers them an Election.

What Brexit is doing is forcing Labour to show it's hand as contemptuous of their working class voter base and showing that it's now just for Middle Upper-class Champagne Socialists.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Trump's all good.

Brexit is only an issue because the majority of Parliament don't actually want to leave. It's like putting Vegans in charge of the Annual Steak and Beef festival and wondering why it's failing.



However why Brexit isn't an Embarrassment goes deeper:

You've had Labour for the better part of 3 years demanding that they call a General Election.

So BoJo the Brexiteer Offers them one - suddenly, silence.

They call Bojo a Dictator for his Proroguing of Parliament, yet he's a Dictator that offers them an Election.

What Brexit is doing is forcing Labour to show it's hand as contemptuous of their working class voter base and showing that it's now just for Middle Upper-class Champagne Socialists.

As a champagne socialist, I approve of this message. Bollinger please none of your tatty Moet.

[TheDemonLord]

As a champagne socialist, I approve of this message. Bollinger please none of your tatty Moet.

You'll be lucky to get Lindeau (sp?)

[HenryDorsetCase]

You'll be lucky to get Lindeau (sp?)

Bitch Diesel

Lindauer btw

[pritch]

What Brexit is doing is forcing Labour to show it's hand as contemptuous of their working class voter base and showing that it's now just for Middle Upper-class Champagne Socialists.

That would seem to be about as wild a misreading of the situation as it's possible to get. The Brit Labour party has been captured by the hard left. Corbyn doesn't like the "west" and that includes Europe, so he won't oppose Brexit. Had he done so there could have been a meaningful election choice.

If there is an election now it's likely that the hard right Tory element will align with the Brexit party and they will defeat the Lib Dems and a crippled Labour party. The resultant medium term possibility of Nigel Farage as PM is already giving people nightmares.

Veuve Cliquot FTW

[Voltaire]

Corbyn did go on a motorcycle tour in 1981..... to...... East Germany.😳

[TheDemonLord]

That would seem to be about as wild a misreading of the situation as it's possible to get. The Brit Labour party has been captured by the hard left. Corbyn doesn't like the "west" and that includes Europe, so he won't oppose Brexit. Had he done so there could have been a meaningful election choice.

If there is an election now it's likely that the hard right Tory element will align with the Brexit party and they will defeat the Lib Dems and a crippled Labour party. The resultant medium term possibility of Nigel Farage as PM is already giving people nightmares.

Veuve Cliquot FTW

So the part about Britains Labour being captured by the Hard Left is something we agree on.

Huzzah!

Corbyn is very interesting - There's numerous clips from the 90s and from the mid 2000s of him criticizing the EU, which is in line with his dislike of the EU. However, this is where things get really interesting - The Champagne socialists Hate Brexit and Love the EU.

Part of it I believe is because there's a strong love of Brexit from the so-called 'far-right', and they cannot align themselves with anything they perceive as 'far-right', Part of it stems from the Open Borders debate, Part of it stems from a defeatist attitude to Britain and it's ability to go it alone.

but I think there is also a part that sees the EU and it's mechanisms/powers as something that they could leverage.

And so we get the Jeremy Corbyn of today who is seemingly pro-EU, in contrast to his working class party voter base, in contrary to his previous statements.

As for opposing Brexit - if you looked carefully at Labour's Brexit plan, it included staying in the Single Market, staying under the ECJ, which IMO is not Brexit at all.

Final point is to why the likes of Nigel Farage will get in - maybe it's because the People want Brexit and they know that Nigel will deliver on Brexit.

The is the same scenario as Donald Trump - when the Politicians try and go against the People, the People go against the Politicians - and win.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Final point is to why the likes of Nigel Farage will get in - maybe it's because the People want Brexit and they know that Nigel will deliver on Brexit.

The is the same scenario as Donald Trump - when the Politicians try and go against the People, the People go against the Politicians - and win.

I dont think its that simple. In particular when you have the Russkis with their hand up Trumps arse moving his mouth, and his naked self interest (say what you will, he is a 1%er and not in the cool way) and also things like Cambridge Analytica and their involvement in the UK's election I am not sure that the "people" (whoever they are) get a chance to speak.

Trump in my view is one of the most unexpectedly successful conmen in history. In spite of incompetence, misogyny, racism, support from fundy fuckwits, there he is. He will get in again too, I'm convinced of that.

[TheDemonLord]

I dont think its that simple. In particular when you have the Russkis with their hand up Trumps arse moving his mouth, and his naked self interest (say what you will, he is a 1%er and not in the cool way) and also things like Cambridge Analytica and their involvement in the UK's election I am not sure that the "people" (whoever they are) get a chance to speak.

Trump in my view is one of the most unexpectedly successful conmen in history. In spite of incompetence, misogyny, racism, support from fundy fuckwits, there he is. He will get in again too, I'm convinced of that.

I agree with the last statement and almost none of the rest. Even by your own statement, if he's a successful Conman, how can he be incompetent? Surely being successful (and it wasn't unexpected to a good number of people, it was just unexpected by a certain clique of very vocal and public groups) negates the claim of incompetence.

People see the Holier-than-thou attitude of the Far Left, and in reaction vote to the right, especially when there is no Moderate Left option.


the Russia Collusion was smoke and mirrors, in much the same way as Labour have been with Brexit - looking for every opportunity to deny reality and avoid looking at their own failings.

For perhaps some clarity - when Tony Blair announced 'New Labour' and had evicted all the Marxists and Socialists (allegedly) from the party, Labour won a landslide victory, there's some deep wisdom in that fact.

[Blackbird]

I dont think its that simple. In particular when you have the Russkis with their hand up Trumps arse moving his mouth, and his naked self interest (say what you will, he is a 1%er and not in the cool way) and also things like Cambridge Analytica and their involvement in the UK's election I am not sure that the "people" (whoever they are) get a chance to speak.

Trump in my view is one of the most unexpectedly successful conmen in history. In spite of incompetence, misogyny, racism, support from fundy fuckwits, there he is. He will get in again too, I'm convinced of that.

Pretty much agree with what you say. In Trump's case, he was also ably assisted by the Democrats putting up seriously dodgy opposition to him. The UK interests me more. I was a massive fan of Ian Richardson as Francis Urquart in the original UK "House of Cards" (good episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06TJo9My38o). Good stuff, even if I thought it was a tad far-fetched. It now seems mild by current events. The real winners as you intimate are Russia and probably China.

[oldrider]

The is the same scenario as Donald Trump - when the Politicians try and go against the People, the People go against the Politicians - and win.
Winning won't happen by means of the ballot box - Winning by the people is called "Revolution" - :spanking: - Serious shit! - :shifty:

Could that be why they so desperately want to take away the peoples guns? - :ar15: - :scratch:

[Voltaire]

Winning won't happen by means of the ballot box - Winning by the people is called "Revolution" - :spanking: - Serious shit! - :shifty:

Could that be why they so desperately want to take away the peoples guns? - :ar15: - :scratch:

Other than the much romatisied American one, what other ones have gone well? , French one... lots of wars, Russian one... lots of death, Chinese... much the same. Irish had a few goes.... Venezuela..... Hussy... help me here with some quotes...

[ellipsis]

Other than the much romatisied American one, what other ones have gone well? , French one... lots of wars, Russian one... lots of death, Chinese... much the same. Irish had a few goes.... Venezuela..... Hussy... help me here with some quotes...


...there have been the odd bloodless coups, mainly in wishy washy countries with a wishy washy system...pointy sticks and blood are the only way out...despots do seem to have a lot of cocksucking, sycophants with ambition, or a lot to lose, to prop them up...can't imagine getting a lot of joy from lynching Jacinda or Crusher...both clever (?) fuckwits, but that's all...but they are only miniscule agents of or for other people on the planet...backwater shithole...

[Laava]

https://youtu.be/cOfffyn4SWI

[Laava]

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-09-08/jpmorgan-launches-volfefe-index-track-impact-volatility

[F5 Dave]

How 'bout them motorbicycles huh?

[Katman]

How 'bout them motorbicycles huh?

Good point.

Haven't you got someone's bike auction you should be trying to sabotage?

[oldrider]

How a secretive elite created the EU to build a world government:- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12018877/The-truth-how-a-secretive-elite-created-the-EU-to-build-a-world-government.html - :rolleyes:

[Quote]As the debate over the forthcoming EU referendum gears up, it would be wise perhaps to remember how Britain was led into membership in the first place.[Unquote]

[F5 Dave]

Good point.

Haven't you got someone's bike auction you should be trying to sabotage?
You do realise that TardMe isn't linked to KB yeah? :facepalm:

[Banditbandit]

- maybe it's because the People want Brexit and they know that Nigel will deliver on Brexit.



Here's the real issue - what does "deliver on Brexit" mean? A "Hard Exit" or a negotiated exit with a deal ..


The UK is trying to negotiate a deal under with the UK leaves the EU. Largely, this is a free trade deal. The EU has little interest in such a deal - their attitude seems to be "just go ..."

There is also a payment to the EU (widely thought to be £39bn) - which is payable with or without a deal ..

Teresa May did get a deal - but that was rejected by her own Parliament. Now the MPs are saying they should negotiate a better deal - but the EU has no interest at all - and it appears they'd rather take a No Deal leave ..

When you say that the People want Brexit - that's a big maybe .. now they are starting to understand the consequences they are backing away from Brexit .. it coull have huge negative economic impacts on Britain ...

Good summary here - relatively short and no big words ..

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

[TheDemonLord]

Here's the real issue - what does "deliver on Brexit" mean? A "Hard Exit" or a negotiated exit with a deal ..

Not part of the Single Market, Not under the auspices of the ECJ, no representation as in MEPs, no EU access to the UKs exclusive Economic Zone etc. etc.

Basically, not tied into the EU in any way shape or form.


The UK is trying to negotiate a deal under with the UK leaves the EU. Largely, this is a free trade deal. The EU has little interest in such a deal - their attitude seems to be "just go ..."

There is also a payment to the EU (widely thought to be £39bn) - which is payable with or without a deal ..

That's not entirely accurate - there are many EU businesses where some of their largest non-domestic market is the UK - German Cars for example, There is a Trade Deficit with the UK from the EU's PoV - namely the EU does more business with the UK than the UK does with the EU. So if you assume a WTO Brexit - that means the Tariffs (assuming an even distribution of goods) will hurt the EU more than the UK.

The second part - £39bn - seems like a bit of interest for a deal.

And lastly - the Attitude of the EU is just go? I'm sorry I absolutely disagree here - if the UK leaves and is a success, that may cause the EU to crumble and fail, even if Brexit is a mess, the fact that the UK is a net-contributor to the EU is going to have serious ramifications.

As proof of this - the EU voted unanimously for an extension to Article 50 - if they wanted the UK to 'Just go' - there would have been no such vote.


Teresa May did get a deal - but that was rejected by her own Parliament. Now the MPs are saying they should negotiate a better deal - but the EU has no interest at all - and it appears they'd rather take a No Deal leave ..

Ah yes, Theresa the Appeaser - Her Deal was terrible. It paid the EU money and failed to fully take the UK out of the EU, The Backstop had no time limit and no bilateral clause to allow the UK to leave.

The EU appears to have no interest at all, because they have a Deal that gives them everything they want and they know that the Majority of Parliament want to remain, all they have to do is play a game of chicken and hope that the UK Parliament caves in.


When you say that the People want Brexit - that's a big maybe .. now they are starting to understand the consequences they are backing away from Brexit .. it coull have huge negative economic impacts on Britain ...

Britain has a long and very proud history of doing the right thing, suffering in the short-term, but emerging all the better for it.

If you look at the Polling, aggregating the options for Leave without a Deal and Leave with a Deal - it's a greater majority than the Referendum result (52% to 48%) - there are a good number of people who voted Remain but accept they lost and the right thing is to leave.

From memory on those poll results Leaving with no Deal had the largest single vote share.


Good summary here - relatively short and no big words ..

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

The BBC has burned it's once good reputation for fair and balanced when it came to Brexit - from the article, it repeats the lines from Project Fear - that leaving the EU will cause Financial Chaos (bearing in mind those predictions came from people who have been consistently wrong on major issues to do with both Brexit and Politics in general), 4 paragraphs dedicated to the negative consequences, and only 2 lines from the pro-brexit stance.

If you go to the Linked article about '10 ways it could affect you' - first up we have the claim that Food will go up in price - that will only happen if the Government decides to set a Tariff on Food from the EU, which both Labour and the Tories have said they wouldn't do. Then trotting out the empty supermarkets line, as if the UK will just close the Ports to Europe - it's a patently absurd notion and the fact it's being printed by the BBC is even more so.

[Katman]

Britain has a long and very proud history of doing the right thing.....

It also has a long history of creating clusterfucks around the world.

[TheDemonLord]

It also has a long history of creating clusterfucks around the world.

Which you only know about because the successes spread the history of the English People far and wide....

[Katman]

Which you only know about because the successes spread the history of the English People far and wide....

No, we know about it because the clusterfucks are still there to this very day.

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/upload_2019-9-10_6-16-29-jpeg.168402/

[husaberg]

As above, it seems most people in the UK are so sick of this fiasco, and it is making their country look weak.
And then Trump, how is this idiot still allowed to be their leader?
International fails of the highest order!

Trump has a dollar either way. (He got it along with 11999999 others from a small loan)
https://vice-images.vice.com/images/content-images-crops/2016/08/19/we-got-illustrators-to-draw-donald-trumps-mr-brexit-body-image-1471609829-size_1000.png

[TheDemonLord]

No, we know about it because the clusterfucks are still there to this very day.

Maybe, but other things that are less so are here to this very day also, And considering the country we live in has been made prosperous, safe and fair by a good number of the beneficial aspects of British principles, on the balance of things, we haven't done too shabby a job.

[Laava]

Maybe, but other things that are less so are here to this very day also, And considering the country we live in has been made prosperous, safe and fair by a good number of the beneficial aspects of British principles, on the balance of things, we haven't done too shabby a job.
Just as well the maori were here to teach them some fucking manners!

[F5 Dave]

Lord I can't believe I'm agreeing with fatman.

Israel India Pakistan Bangladesh Ireland Iran

I mean jezuz muthafuk what a mess they left trying to play manipulation thinking they knew best.

[Laava]

Lord I can't believe I'm agreeing with fatman.

Israel India Pakistan Bangladesh Ireland Iran

I mean jezuz muthafuk what a mess they left trying to play manipulation thinking they knew best.

Fuckin easy when all you have to do is plant a flag and make the claim.

[Berries]

Bollocks. The English gave all those countries cricket, curry and Guinness.


Huzzah!

[TheDemonLord]

Lord I can't believe I'm agreeing with fatman.

Israel India Pakistan Bangladesh Ireland Iran

I mean jezuz muthafuk what a mess they left trying to play manipulation thinking they knew best.

United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Everywhere that uses a Parliamentary Democracy and a Derivation of the English Common Law System.

And some of those, the problems weren't caused by the British....

[Banditbandit]

Maybe, but other things that are less so are here to this very day also, And considering the country we live in has been made prosperous, safe and fair by a good number of the beneficial aspects of British principles, on the balance of things, we haven't done too shabby a job.


yeah - I'm sure that my Māori whanau would agree with you (sarcasm ...) as would many people who the English colonized - from Scotland and Ireland and then around the world .. such as the North American Indians who were slaughtered because England put a bounty on their heads ... and the AMriecan balcks, whose ancestors were taken and sold as slaves - with HUGE English involvement in the slave trade ....


Just as well the maori were here to teach them some fucking manners!


Exactly ..

[Banditbandit]

United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Everywhere that uses a Parliamentary Democracy and a Derivation of the English Common Law System.

And some of those, the problems weren't caused by the British....

I'm sorry - again, 'democracy' is foreign to my Māori whanau - it was an imposed system - and has been of little benefit to them ...

[TheDemonLord]

yeah - I'm sure that my Māori whanau would agree with you (sarcasm ...) as would many people who the English colonized - from Scotland and Ireland and then around the world .. such as the North American Indians who were slaughtered because England put a bounty on their heads ... and the AMriecan balcks, whose ancestors were taken and sold as slaves - with HUGE English involvement in the slave trade ....

Exactly ..

Well, there's some very interesting stories from places that were run by the British and the British left, especially amongst the Generation that experienced both British rule (for all it's Ills) and the current regimes - almost all say some variant of 'at least under the British everything was well run' - and that statement has been echoe'd by people from the likes of Barbados, Kashmir, Kenya etc. etc.

As for Slave Trade - Put it this way, before the British declared Slavery illegal and sent the Royal Navy to stop the practice around the Globe, every Nation on earth and every people (including your Māori whanau) had the concept of Slavery and Slaves.

So tell you what - let's make the simple:

Take your pick: British Colonization (with all it's perks and perils)
or
Slavery

[TheDemonLord]

I'm sorry - again, 'democracy' is foreign to my Māori whanau - it was an imposed system - and has been of little benefit to them ...

Would you prefer Utu and Kai Tangata?

Ka hopungia e maha nga upoko, Ka hopungia e maha taurekareka

[Viking01]

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-slavery/chronology-who-banned-slavery-when-idUSL1561464920070322

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/antislavery_01.shtml

https://www.rt.com/uk/418814-slave-compensation-bristol-taxpayer/

https://www.rt.com/uk/316898-jamaica-slavery-reparations-cameron/

[Banditbandit]

Bollocks. The English gave all those countries cricket, curry and Guinness.


Huzzah!

PS Guinnes is Irish - a product of a country the English colonized and brutalized ..

[Banditbandit]

Would you prefer Utu and Kai Tangata?

Ka hopungia e maha nga upoko, Ka hopungia e maha taurekareka

The emphasis on Utu is probably based on a fallacy .. the significant concept is Muru ..

Britain aristocracy practiced cannibalism .. this is just one article - I'm sure you can find the rest

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/aristocracy-ate-human-flesh-2287174.html


Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade (tuarekareka) - and many British fortunes were based on the slave trade ..

Britain abolished slavery in 1833 - well after they'd arrived here ..

[husaberg]

PS Guinnes is Irish - a product of a country the English colonized and brutalized ..

You noticed Guinness, but not Curry.........;) i have seen it written as Kebabs

[admenk]

And some of those, the problems weren't caused by the British....

Come on, you know we're to blame for everything

[Berries]

PS Guinnes is Irish - a product of a country the English colonized and brutalized ..
I apologise. This thread had some humour on a previous page.

[F5 Dave]

United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Everywhere that uses a Parliamentary Democracy and a Derivation of the English Common Law System.

And some of those, the problems weren't caused by the British....

Sorry? Some of your list or my list? I'll assume mine.

A tiny amount of research will indeed show in those examples the British set the ball rolling for collision. In some the mercans just upped the game.

Ireland, well to be fair they were more trouble for the Mainlanders than the other way around , but a fair bit of that was the Danes. But the thousand years after that the tide turned.

History is interesting.

History belongs to all of us, but none of us own it.

[Berries]

Ireland, well to be fair they were more trouble for the Mainlanders than the other way around , but a fair bit of that was the Danes. But the thousand years after that the tide turned.
I blame the Romans to be honest, and that Norman Conquest geezer.




And Thatcher, obviously.

[husaberg]

I blame the Romans to be honest, and that Norman Conquest geezer.




And Thatcher, obviously.

What about that Italian fella Angelo Saxon.
Don't let Robert Taylor hear you two bagging Maggie.

[F5 Dave]

Bit of a shout out for the British History podcast. Hours of interesting well researched listening. Search from your usual podcast player app.

What do you mean you don't have one??? Go straight to app store and buy a free one right now.

[F5 Dave]

What about that Italian fella Angelo Saxon.
Don't let Robert Taylor hear you two bagging Maggie.


Doing what to Maggie??!! Are you suggesting a spit-roast?

Oh.

Bagging.

Thought you said something else.

[husaberg]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/97/de/ce97def2470ad86d3f92922ace01de14.jpg

[Viking01]

Sorry? Some of your list or my list? I'll assume mine.

A tiny amount of research will indeed show in those examples the British set the ball rolling for collision. In some the mercans just upped the game.

Ireland, well to be fair they were more trouble for the Mainlanders than the other way around , but a fair bit of that was the Danes. But the thousand years after that the tide turned.

History is interesting.

History belongs to all of us, but none of us own it.

Look, I wish you'd get it right:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y3YSTqjeIA

And albeit a thousand or so years later, it looks as though
they need to come back again and sort matters out (if Brexit
is anything to go by).

[F5 Dave]

Cute once over. Didn't mention Ireland at all.

[Banditbandit]

You noticed Guinness, but not Curry.........;) i have seen it written as Kebabs

Yeah - because curry, as it is known in the West, is certainly an English creation ..

[Banditbandit]

So tell you what - let's make the simple:

Take your pick: British Colonization (with all it's perks and perils)
or
Slavery

It's not that simple - adn you know it ...


I apologise. This thread had some humour on a previous page.

My response was also partly humourous .. and humour is not always obvious in a chat room ..


I blame the Romans to be honest, and that Norman Conquest geezer.




'T'was the Vikings - the expansionist drive to conquor the world comes from them bastards .. The Romans only wanted the tax collected from their new empire ..

[Viking01]

It's not that simple - adn you know it ...



My response was also partly humourous .. and humour is not always obvious in a chat room ..



'T'was the Vikings - the expansionist drive to conquer the world comes from them bastards .. The Romans only wanted the tax collected from their new empire ..

Crikey. Pulling everyone's chain this morning .... 8-)

[GazzaH]

What have the Romans ever done for us?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7tvauOJMHo

[austingtir]

Nope, The biggest embarrassment is the people that believe all the lies surrounding brexit and Trump.

https://i.redd.it/z6nxv3q5l6m31.jpg

[Laava]

Nope, The biggest embarrassment is the people that believe all the lies surrounding brexit and Trump.

They're called republicans.

[F5 Dave]

:laugh:
That fucked him up.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Laava again.

[TheDemonLord]

The emphasis on Utu is probably based on a fallacy .. the significant concept is Muru ..

Britain aristocracy practiced cannibalism .. this is just one article - I'm sure you can find the rest

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/aristocracy-ate-human-flesh-2287174.html

That's a weeeeeee bit of a stretch - Ingesting flesh/bone etc. for Medicinal purposes from someone who you didn't actively kill is different from ritualistically killing someone to eat them.


Britain was heavily involved in the slave trade (tuarekareka) - and many British fortunes were based on the slave trade ..

Britain abolished slavery in 1833 - well after they'd arrived here ..

Absolutely we were and we did profit from it Just as every other group/Tribe/Family/collective/community/village/town/city/nation/country/continent/Empire engaged in the practice of Human Slavery and profited from it (whether it be a financial profit, or an increase in Mana or similar 'prestige' concept).


It's not that simple - adn you know it ...

In some ways it is and in some it isn't.

It was a combination of British Legal Principles, Enlightenment values, and Military Might that ended Slavery - A Combination that was so unique in history that is ended a Concept that was over 10,000 years old.

The point I'm making is that sure - the British did some pretty shitty things, and yes they fucked over a lot of people - no one is saying this isn't true. The flipside is that those people that they fucked over, in almost every setting were merrily fucking each other over (often with much more grisly ends for the loosers) well before the British arrived, and sometimes afterwards.

It hardly seems fair to complain about how bad the British where when you read (for example) of what the Maori did in the Chatham Islands, and more specifically the Justification of what they had done, since it was in accordance with their customs.

At worst (for example what was done in Australia to the Aboriginals) was no better or worse than what inter-tribal conflict would have produced.

What the British also did was to end a number of 'cultural practices' that both you and I would agree were abhorrent (Sati springs to mine - you build your pyre and I shall build my gallows and let us all act according to our customs), We also setup most of our former colonies as prosperous Nations, We granted them independence, in most cases without shots needing to be fired - we are on pretty good relations with all of our former colonies - even the ones we ended on bad terms with. We've given them a Legal and Political system that (for all it's faults and failings) is still the most fair process of running a country yet produced.

And this leads to the question: For all the Injustices (perceived or otherwise) are you better off than you would be if you still lived a Tribal existence? The question however is rhetorical - since almost no-one goes back to live a Tribal existence.

[F5 Dave]

Ok the reason I chimed up is the more I learn about some of the political intrusions the Brits and the Mercans have performed trying to either stabilise or more usually exploit an area the ongoing issues it causes has effects for generations.

I mean the middle east was always unstable, but heck, let's carve out a bit of area for the Jews and see what happens. Unintended consequence of WW2 clean up.

Now not to be too hypocritical if I traced my ancestors back beyond these shores they would lead to most corners of Britain.

To what point are we responsible for our Fathers actions? Now our Sons ; we can possibly be apportioned questions of negligence. But we can't alter what our Fathers have done.

This is why nationalism is a bit of a crock.

[TheDemonLord]

Ok the reason I chimed up is the more I learn about some of the political intrusions the Brits and the Mercans have performed trying to either stabilise or more usually exploit an area the ongoing issues it causes has effects for generations.

I mean the middle east was always unstable, but heck, let's carve out a bit of area for the Jews and see what happens. Unintended consequence of WW2 clean up.

Now not to be too hypocritical if I traced my ancestors back beyond these shores they would lead to most corners of Britain.

To what point are we responsible for our Fathers actions? Now our Sons ; we can possibly be apportioned questions of negligence. But we can't alter what our Fathers have done.

This is why nationalism is a bit of a crock.

Definitely there are ongoing and unintended consequences, The 3rd line however is the real 'gotcha' - Most of the places that Britain were either unstable or had some very unsavory practices. Things that the people who often decry 'colonialism' would no doubt find abhorrent (Sati, FGM etc.).

When people critique what Britain did (and as I've said many times and at length - there is lots to criticize) they often paint a distorted picture that everything was perfect before the evil British came along.

IMO - We should look at what our forefathers did, look at their reasoning, try to work out what their failings were and how might we better conduct ourselves to avoid those failings, whilst increasing the good that we do.

As for the last line - depends on what you mean by Nationalism - Do you support living in a Nation state, free from outside interference where Political power is granted by the Citizenry, whilst upholding certain values?

If yes - then you are a Nationalist to a degree. For example - do you consider yourself a New Zealander? That believes in 'a fair go'? That's what a Nationalist would say, that we as New Zealanders have a number of shared values (and sure, we could argue what they are) and that overall adherence to those values are part of who we are and are on balance a good thing and so should be perpetuated.

[F5 Dave]

Ok maybe that doesn't merit over analysis, it was just a superficial jab at saying I dunno, We come from the best country in the world; reason, I come from there. :rolleyes:
But if everyone says that clearly its not true and causes people to treat other nations with contempt.

Heck look at me coming over all hippy. Fuck I'll be going vegan next. . . . Actually now I think of it, most of my meals are at least partially vegan. . . .
And the cutlery and plates aren't made of meat. I guess I don't eat those. But my food touches them and sometimes they go in my mouth like the fork. Has to count for something.

[Berries]

We also setup most of our former colonies as prosperous Nations, We granted them independence, in most cases without shots needing to be fired - we are on pretty good relations with all of our former colonies - even the ones we ended on bad terms with. We've given them a Legal and Political system that (for all it's faults and failings) is still the most fair process of running a country yet produced.
What's with all the 'we' shit? I was born in England but I am as much responsible for any of the shit that happened generations ago as any descendent of the people on the first boats from the UK that came here. Less so in fact given what those people did to the locals, here and elsewhere.

[TheDemonLord]

What's with all the 'we' shit? I was born in England but I am as much responsible for any of the shit that happened generations ago as any descendent of the people on the first boats from the UK that came here. Less so in fact given what those people did to the locals, here and elsewhere.

Okay, fair point, it was more of a Royal 'We', although the present-day 'we' do carry on the values and traditions (hopefully, the Net-Positive ones) from our forebears - so that counts for something,

[Banditbandit]

Absolutely we were and we did profit from it Just as every other group/Tribe/Family/collective/community/village/town/city/nation/country/continent/Empire engaged in the practice of Human Slavery and profited from it (whether it be a financial profit, or an increase in Mana or similar 'prestige' concept).




The point I'm making is that sure - the British did some pretty shitty things, and yes they fucked over a lot of people - no one is saying this isn't true. The flipside is that those people that they fucked over, in almost every setting were merrily fucking each other over (often with much more grisly ends for the loosers) well before the British arrived, and sometimes afterwards.


This conversation started when you appeared to claim some sort of moral high ground for the English - my point is that no culture, no society, no civilization, has any claim to any sort of moral high ground - we are all human beings, descendants of nasty and brutal people - if we look at it from the Survival of the Fittest, then we are the survivors of the fittest - those who were nasty and brutal enough to come out on top - our ancestors. If they had not come out on top they would not have descendants - and those descendants are us.

The history of the world is of people moving around the world , encountering other people - and interacting with them - some times positive interactions, sometimes negative interactions.






And this leads to the question: For all the Injustices (perceived or otherwise) are you better off than you would be if you still lived a Tribal existence? The question however is rhetorical - since almost no-one goes back to live a Tribal existence.

A speculative question - and not easy to answer. We still have a tribal existence - it is one in the contemporary world, not the old world.

There are still people in the Amazon forest who have refused contact and still live int he old way. Are they better off? They would probably say yes, but that really depends on what values you apply to judge "better off". Māori here NEVER got to make the choice. Yes, we may say we are better off - but are we applying Western values, that we have learnt, to answer that question?

Modern life comes with all sorts of stresses and metabolic conditions, such as some cancers, food allergies, heart attacks, which are directly attributable to stress and modern life. When you look at those, and ask if we are truly happy (many people would say we are not) can we really say that we are better off?

If we look worldwide the distribution of knowledge is pretty even - since the colonizing period there have been HUGE advances in all fields - and the world's people are better off for that, especially in medicine. The world has shared in that (apart from the self-isolating Amazon tribes).

The history of the world is what it is ...

As well, major advances in health and life expectancy are a result of the distribution of food around the world. When Cook arrived here the life expectancy of people in France was 28 years. Exactly the same as for Māori - except Māori were probably better fed (in the words of Anne Salmond.) Malnutrition was a major cause of that low life expectancy.

What changes was the European diet (and subsequently diets around the world).

Positive additions to diet include; Potatoes, tomatoes and squash (from the Americas - the Irish Potato famine was not possible until the Europeans discovered the Americas and brought back potatoes) Fruit - such things as oranges from China. Pasta from China (noodles). The much vaunted Italian cuisine is not possible without tomatoes from the Americas and Pasta from China.

These are a few examples. There's a long list of foods that we eat today that come from non-European sources, sources which Europe got from the places it colonized. This redistribution of food accounts for massive changes in our health and life span.

So there has been a massive contribution in this area from the colonized people - a contribution that largely goes unnoticed.

This is short - I could go on - but I'll leave it to you to come back again ..

[Banditbandit]

What's with all the 'we' shit? I was born in England but I am as much responsible for any of the shit that happened generations ago as any descendent of the people on the first boats from the UK that came here. Less so in fact given what those people did to the locals, here and elsewhere.

Those of us alive today are NOT responsible for the past ...

We are only the products of the past ..

To understand today we need to understand the past ... (how we got to where we are)

We ARE responsible for what happens NOW and into the future ... if we understand the past then we can make a better today and a better future ..

[F5 Dave]

I was thinking about life expectancy , and a simple average is misleading. Infant mortality was so high that it seriously skews the numbers. Also people tended to get pulled into being killed.

So a better measurement would be average age of those who made it past childhood and those not killed in wars. Then compared.

[Banditbandit]

I was thinking about life expectancy , and a simple average is misleading. Infant mortality was so high that it seriously skews the numbers. Also people tended to get pulled into being killed.

So a better measurement would be average age of those who made it past childhood and those not killed in wars. Then compared.

I agree ... simple life expectancy is a blunt instrument .. does not invalidate my point - Europe benefited hugely (in many areas) from the colonization of much of the world.

However, the same thing applies - diet has a lot to do with infant mortality ..

In terms of overall life expectancy, so does diseases, wars, etc etc .. and pre-mid 20th Century had all of those ..

[TheDemonLord]

This conversation started when you appeared to claim some sort of moral high ground for the English - my point is that no culture, no society, no civilization, has any claim to any sort of moral high ground - we are all human beings, descendants of nasty and brutal people - if we look at it from the Survival of the Fittest, then we are the survivors of the fittest - those who were nasty and brutal enough to come out on top - our ancestors. If they had not come out on top they would not have descendants - and those descendants are us.

The history of the world is of people moving around the world , encountering other people - and interacting with them - some times positive interactions, sometimes negative interactions.

This is probably the fundamental disagreement - you are advancing a Moral Relativism argument. I reject that. There are certain things that I absolutely claim the moral high ground on - The ending of Slavery, The ending of Sati (Wife Burning), the Ending of FGM, The ending of HeadHunting etc. These are all things that are a moral absolute.

If you disagree, then by all means - but in order to do so, you have to provide an argument as to why those things can be Moral. I dare you to try it.

We can certainly argue about the Means that things were done, we can argue as to what things fall under the auspices of Moral Absolutes and what things don't, We can argue as to whether or not some things went too far (and I'll concede that in almost all instances they probably did)

To sum up - Regardless of what your Culture says, if you think burning someone alive because their spouse died is okay or even Moral, I've got news for you.



A speculative question - and not easy to answer. We still have a tribal existence - it is one in the contemporary world, not the old world.

Fair point, however most of the Tribal allegiances are voluntary, temporary and sometimes intersecting - for example, someone from Auckland and Wellington join the Tribe of the Blues and Hurricanes for a Super Rugby match and are in opposition to each other, but those same two people join the Tribe of the All Blacks for a Test Match.

IMO - this transient and non-permanent nature is what helps keep our predilection for tribal warfare at bay.


There are still people in the Amazon forest who have refused contact and still live int he old way. Are they better off? They would probably say yes, but that really depends on what values you apply to judge "better off". Māori here NEVER got to make the choice. Yes, we may say we are better off - but are we applying Western values, that we have learnt, to answer that question?

Absolutely, there are a few groups of people that still do, and more power to them.


Modern life comes with all sorts of stresses and metabolic conditions, such as some cancers, food allergies, heart attacks, which are directly attributable to stress and modern life. When you look at those, and ask if we are truly happy (many people would say we are not) can we really say that we are better off?

Many people might say we aren't better off, but how many of them actually act in accordance with what they say? And this is the Crux of my Argument. Regardless of what people say, it's their actions that speak loudest - very few people who have lived under the Western lifestyle (with all it's perks and pitfalls) choose to go back to the aformentioned amazonian lifestyle? There are some people in NZ who choose to live completely off-grid, and again - more power to them, I have the utmost respect for them.

The others, who say a lot and do nothing, however - I have no respect for. Just like all the Celebrities that said they would move to Canada if Trump won - not a single one has moved.


If we look worldwide the distribution of knowledge is pretty even - since the colonizing period there have been HUGE advances in all fields - and the world's people are better off for that, especially in medicine. The world has shared in that (apart from the self-isolating Amazon tribes).

The history of the world is what it is ...

Definitely agreed.



As well, major advances in health and life expectancy are a result of the distribution of food around the world. When Cook arrived here the life expectancy of people in France was 28 years. Exactly the same as for Māori - except Māori were probably better fed (in the words of Anne Salmond.) Malnutrition was a major cause of that low life expectancy.

What changes was the European diet (and subsequently diets around the world).

Positive additions to diet include; Potatoes, tomatoes and squash (from the Americas - the Irish Potato famine was not possible until the Europeans discovered the Americas and brought back potatoes) Fruit - such things as oranges from China. Pasta from China (noodles). The much vaunted Italian cuisine is not possible without tomatoes from the Americas and Pasta from China.

These are a few examples. There's a long list of foods that we eat today that come from non-European sources, sources which Europe got from the places it colonized. This redistribution of food accounts for massive changes in our health and life span.

So there has been a massive contribution in this area from the colonized people - a contribution that largely goes unnoticed.

This is short - I could go on - but I'll leave it to you to come back again ..

I think there's some misunderstanding here - I've never made the claim that there wasn't good things, ideas, items that were brought back from the Colonies - Hell, I'm British - our National dish is now a Curry! The Maori invented Trench warfare, I've got fond memories of the Divali festival etc.

Linking back to my part about Moral Relativism, that's the thing that is wonderful (IMO) about the British Empire - that for all it's faults, We stopped a number of things that are objectively repugnant, but for everything else that didn't violate those principles, we tended to leave it be (with varying degrees, granted) and so moving forward, we have all of the best, positive bits of all the cultures we've interacted with throughout the world, without any of the bad bits.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUxV6SvQHc0

David Starkey on Brexit, The history of Democracy in the UK and other bits and pieces.

David is on FIRE.

[Berries]

Those of us alive today are NOT responsible for the past ...

We are only the products of the past ..

To understand today we need to understand the past ... (how we got to where we are)

We ARE responsible for what happens NOW and into the future ... if we understand the past then we can make a better today and a better future ..
Jeez, you must have a massive bumper to get all them stickers on it.

[Viking01]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/17/hes-a-barbarian-maori-tribe-bans-replica-of-captain-cooks-ship-from-port

[Banditbandit]

Jeez, you must have a massive bumper to get all them stickers on it.

I'm trying to keep it simple for the simpletons here .. they seem pretty good at reading bumper stickers ..

[Banditbandit]

This is probably the fundamental disagreement - you are advancing a Moral Relativism argument.

No - not at all ... just acknowledging that our ancestors have been brutal and survivors ...

This means that NO society has a moral high ground based on previous activities.





I reject that. There are certain things that I absolutely claim the moral high ground on - The ending of Slavery, The ending of Sati (Wife Burning), the Ending of FGM, The ending of HeadHunting etc. These are all things that are a moral absolute.

If you disagree, then by all means - but in order to do so, you have to provide an argument as to why those things can be Moral. I dare you to try it.

That's not has hard as you think. And now you're treading on my turf - my academic passion is in Philosophy and I have taught ethics ...

All human ethics are a human creation and are, therefore, relative ...

and from that point I would pretty much go into your sentences I have underlined - if we can argue about it then there are no absolutes ..

However, I don't necessarily agree with an argument, just because I can make it ..


We can certainly argue about the Means that things were done, we can argue as to what things fall under the auspices of Moral Absolutes and what things don't, We can argue as to whether or not some things went too far (and I'll concede that in almost all instances they probably did)

To sum up - Regardless of what your Culture says, if you think burning someone alive because their spouse died is okay or even Moral, I've got news for you.

I don't disagree ..




Fair point, however most of the Tribal allegiances are voluntary, temporary and sometimes intersecting - for example, someone from Auckland and Wellington join the Tribe of the Blues and Hurricanes for a Super Rugby match and are in opposition to each other, but those same two people join the Tribe of the All Blacks for a Test Match.

IMO - this transient and non-permanent nature is what helps keep our predilection for tribal warfare at bay.

You misunderstand - Maori in NZ, Aboriginals in Oz - all still live in a tribal soceity ..







Many people might say we aren't better off, but how many of them actually act in accordance with what they say? And this is the Crux of my Argument. Regardless of what people say, it's their actions that speak loudest - very few people who have lived under the Western lifestyle (with all it's perks and pitfalls) choose to go back to the aformentioned amazonian lifestyle? There are some people in NZ who choose to live completely off-grid, and again - more power to them, I have the utmost respect for them.

The others, who say a lot and do nothing, however - I have no respect for. Just like all the Celebrities that said they would move to Canada if Trump won - not a single one has moved.



Yes - it's quite hard to go that far away from civilization - a lot harder than most people think.





I think there's some misunderstanding here - I've never made the claim that there wasn't good things, ideas, items that were brought back from the Colonies - Hell, I'm British - our National dish is now a Curry! The Maori invented Trench warfare, I've got fond memories of the Divali festival etc.

Linking back to my part about Moral Relativism, that's the thing that is wonderful (IMO) about the British Empire - that for all it's faults, We stopped a number of things that are objectively repugnant, but for everything else that didn't violate those principles, we tended to leave it be (with varying degrees, granted) and so moving forward, we have all of the best, positive bits of all the cultures we've interacted with throughout the world, without any of the bad bits.


I could write a whole list of things the British Empire did, when there was no need - such as active genocide (bounty on American Indians for as start ... )

Given disease-riddled blankets from sick people to Australian Aborigines ..

Suppression of Indigenous languages - Indigenous people who remember being hit for speaking their own language, or whose grandparents told them stories of being hit for speaking their own languages.

Suppression of Indigenous religious beliefs ..

Two or three examples ..

Indigenous people around the world would either laugh hilariously at your point of view - or be very angry ..

Yes, the British Empire brought some positive benefits - and some negative things ... where you stand, what your family history is, depends on how you see that - in balance or tipped one way or the other ..

[TheDemonLord]

No - not at all ... just acknowledging that our ancestors have been brutal and survivors ...

This means that NO society has a moral high ground based on previous activities.

On some issues, I contend that they absolutely do. Both from a purely abstract perspective and also from the Historical record.


That's not has hard as you think. And now you're treading on my turf - my academic passion is in Philosophy and I have taught ethics ...

All human ethics are a human creation and are, therefore, relative ...

and from that point I would pretty much go into your sentences I have underlined - if we can argue about it then there are no absolutes ..

However, I don't necessarily agree with an argument, just because I can make it ..

Why don't you agree with it then?

There's a simple test - Do you submit yourself to the same judgement? Because that is where the Rubber meets the Road - you may be able to construct a relativistic argument that Slavery is acceptable (again, for reference, I reject that notion), But I highly doubt you'd consent to having that argument applied to you - namely being forced into slavery.

And your objection to Britain Colonial past is a testament to that fact.


I don't disagree ..

Didn't think you would :P The point was that we both agree (at least I hope we do) that some things are absolutely bad (Slavery etc.) and we both agree that somethings are absolutely awesome (Suzuki's wonderful line of Sport-Touring motorcycles for example), accepting those two premises, our disagreement is not whether or not there is a line, but only where the line is.


You misunderstand - Maori in NZ, Aboriginals in Oz - all still live in a tribal soceity ..

Yes and No, I think we may have talked passed each other here. The old Tribal demarcation points, which were once very hard and clearly defined are now much more abstract and transient. You may have a membership to a tribe, but you aren't necessarily living in that Tribe's geographic area, or within their Pā, you may not wear your ancestral/Tribal Tā moko.

Furthermore Your allegiance to that Tribe does not disqualify you from adopting other 'tribal-esque' allegiances (Sport being a notable example) - It's this ability to be members of multiple different tribes simultaneously is what allows us to satiate our desire for togetherness but also prevents us from descending into war.


Yes - it's quite hard to go that far away from civilization - a lot harder than most people think.

But it is possible.

And if it is hard, that begs the question: If it is harder to do than living in a Western civilization, which option is preferable, and again, I refer to people who vote with their actions as opposed to their words.



I could write a whole list of things the British Empire did, when there was no need - such as active genocide (bounty on American Indians for as start ... )

Given disease-riddled blankets from sick people to Australian Aborigines ..

Suppression of Indigenous languages - Indigenous people who remember being hit for speaking their own language, or whose grandparents told them stories of being hit for speaking their own languages.

Suppression of Indigenous religious beliefs ..

Two or three examples ..

Indigenous people around the world would either laugh hilariously at your point of view - or be very angry ..

Yes, the British Empire brought some positive benefits - and some negative things ... where you stand, what your family history is, depends on how you see that - in balance or tipped one way or the other ..

And I'd concede just about every act that you could list, without contest and agreeing that it was wrong.

The question to those Indigenous people however is simple - Do they choose to go back to their old ways, when you confirm it IS an option, or is it that it is so much harder to do than it is to live in the Western world, and therefore - for all the ills and historic injustices, their continued presence and participation in said society confirms it to be the superior choice, given that everyday, they continue to choose it.

Combine that with the fact that most of the most vocal opponents of said system have not experienced anything else - It's easy to rail about how bad Colonialism is/was when you've not experienced the alternative.

Where it gets interesting is when you talk to people who have experienced both systems, they almost always state something along the lines of 'for all the problems, at least everything was well-run'. Which is something you have to seriously contend with.

[Banditbandit]

On some issues, I contend that they absolutely do. Both from a purely abstract perspective and also from the Historical record.



Why don't you agree with it then?

Because there is no 'purely abstract' point of view - there is only a moment in history - clearly slavery - your example - was once regarded as ethical


There's a simple test - Do you submit yourself to the same judgement? Because that is where the Rubber meets the Road - you may be able to construct a relativistic argument that Slavery is acceptable (again, for reference, I reject that notion), But I highly doubt you'd consent to having that argument applied to you - namely being forced into slavery.

No - I can't and won't construct a relativist argument for slavery - that is impossible. But slavery was once regarded as the norm - and ethical. This is what makes ethics relativist - not any argument.


And your objection to Britain Colonial past is a testament to that fact.

Part of the argument is that at the time colonization was occurring there were voices saying that this was unethical ... those voices were not listened to by the colonizers ..




Didn't think you would :P The point was that we both agree (at least I hope we do) that some things are absolutely bad (Slavery etc.) and we both agree that somethings are absolutely awesome (Suzuki's wonderful line of Sport-Touring motorcycles for example), accepting those two premises, our disagreement is not whether or not there is a line, but only where the line is.

I do wonder what things we are doing today people in the future will think were completely unethical - the argument over Climate Change may well be one example - and there are voices saying that what we are doing to our planet is unethical ... not within the confines of the argument over Climate Change - but in the wider argument about pollution ...

As above - ethics have changed and today we say that slavery is unethical ... absolutes cannot change - the fact that ethics do change show there are no absolutes.

Love your example of the Suzukis. But that is a value judgement .. and an individual one at that - there are people in this forum who would not agree ..

And finally - we are arguing over where the line is - maybe - but the point is if it was an absolute we would not be arguing.




Yes and No, I think we may have talked passed each other here. The old Tribal demarcation points, which were once very hard and clearly defined are now much more abstract and transient. You may have a membership to a tribe, but you aren't necessarily living in that Tribe's geographic area, or within their Pā, you may not wear your ancestral/Tribal Tā moko.

From inside it looks different .. especially as I work in a Maori education institute - and tribal membership is very obvious and a major part of people's lives.

Yes, we may or may not live in our tribal areas (I don't) - that is why I said in a contemporary context. It is certainly important at work that I do have tribal affiliations .. it makes me an insider. We have people on staff here who are Pakeha - and they feel and react differently to the rest of us. We make space for them - but it's a relationship with tensions 0- because they think differently.


Furthermore Your allegiance to that Tribe does not disqualify you from adopting other 'tribal-esque' allegiances (Sport being a notable example) - It's this ability to be members of multiple different tribes simultaneously is what allows us to satiate our desire for togetherness but also prevents us from descending into war.

I agree - but you are using the word "tribal" in a different way - with expanded contexts, than I am.




And if it is hard, that begs the question: If it is harder to do than living in a Western civilization, which option is preferable, and again, I refer to people who vote with their actions as opposed to their words.

It is hard because most people do not know how to live outside our civilization - they have romantic notions of what "living off the land" actually entails - such as hard work. Growing your own food is harder than walking to the corner store ... setting up a water supply is harder than turning on a tap .. Been there - done that ..

Which option is preferable? Having experienced both I would choose living off the land. But I'm old and don't have children and grandchildren to do it for me .. At my age (and somewhat broken condition) it's practicably easier not to - but I still live rurally, so I grow food and don't rely on a piped water supply .. but my knees certainly feel it when I climb the hill for maintenance on our spring.





And I'd concede just about every act that you could list, without contest and agreeing that it was wrong.

The question to those Indigenous people however is simple - Do they choose to go back to their old ways, when you confirm it IS an option, or is it that it is so much harder to do than it is to live in the Western world, and therefore - for all the ills and historic injustices, their continued presence and participation in said society confirms it to be the superior choice, given that everyday, they continue to choose it.

Obviously my answers to the above suggest what my answer is ...




Combine that with the fact that most of the most vocal opponents of said system have not experienced anything else - It's easy to rail about how bad Colonialism is/was when you've not experienced the alternative.

Part of the answer is what you say - they have never experienced anything else and they romanticize the life style.


Where it gets interesting is when you talk to people who have experienced both systems, they almost always state something along the lines of 'for all the problems, at least everything was well-run'. Which is something you have to seriously contend with.

Having experienced both I would go with a rejection of contemporary civilization .. I would have gone even further than I did - if I had the resources to do so .. gone total self-sufficiency ..

Many people I know who do that say they would never go back.

But I think we are talking about two slightly different things - a return to the basic life style happens on an individual level.

What you seem to be talking about is a group doing it. But that can only happen in a modern context. It would be impossible and very stupid to ask Indigenous hunters to give up their guns, their utes etc and return to the days of foot hunting with bows and arrows. As it woud be to give up modern cooking technology and return to fire-based cooking .. and most people do not have the knowledge to do that (I do have hunting bows, though they were never used by Maori).

The second issue is how such a society is organised. And it is impossible to return to the old ways of social organisation - our minds are different from the past - so the social organisation can only be on contemporary ways or social organisation.

[F5 Dave]

Lord Below!

Well I did see the word Suzuki in there as I skimmed so maybe there is some hope of some interesting banter. But guys keep your posts to one or two quotes else you look like Husi.

Feel free to reference each others parentage/ relationship with Satan/ sexual practices with small furry animals as required.

Go!

[TheDemonLord]

Because there is no 'purely abstract' point of view - there is only a moment in history - clearly slavery - your example - was once regarded as ethical

This then is our disagreement. And TBH I think it's one that will never be bridged - there are some things that are so abhorrent as to never be acceptable. When you apply the test of 'if this was done to me...' proves it not to be right.


No - I can't and won't construct a relativist argument for slavery - that is impossible. But slavery was once regarded as the norm - and ethical. This is what makes ethics relativist - not any argument.

That statement is kinda contradictory. If Ethics is Relativist, then there is an argument that says Slavery was okay, if it's impossible to do so, then Ethics must be grounded in something deeper that itself is not Relativist. Sam Harris and JBP went down a very similar road on the question of Religious Morality vs Secular Morality.

The best I've got at that point (and you will, no doubt, rightfully tear this to shreds) is that Ethics is based on something like Selfish Altruism.

You could probably even go so far as to say that my absolute stance borders on the Religious (and wouldn't that be a fun box to open...)


Part of the argument is that at the time colonization was occurring there were voices saying that this was unethical ... those voices were not listened to by the colonizers ..

Definitely, but there were also voices saying it was unethical not to do so. Is it right to turn a blind eye and let people slaughter each other - Men, Women and Children - when you have the power to stop them?

The ultimate Ethical goal for both sides is the reduction of Suffering, the question really is more on the practical application of that goal. Or to quote one of the eternal questions - Does the ends justify the means?


I do wonder what things we are doing today people in the future will think were completely unethical - the argument over Climate Change may well be one example - and there are voices saying that what we are doing to our planet is unethical ... not within the confines of the argument over Climate Change - but in the wider argument about pollution ...

As above - ethics have changed and today we say that slavery is unethical ... absolutes cannot change - the fact that ethics do change show there are no absolutes.

As above, I don't think the Ethics have changed at all - 'reduction in suffering', It's the application of it - one side claims that in order to reduce future suffering, drastic and sweeping changes have to be made now. The other side says that doing so will result in greater suffering as the future predictions have a large margin of error in them.



Love your example of the Suzukis. But that is a value judgement .. and an individual one at that - there are people in this forum who would not agree ..

The difference is, we both know they would be wrong ;)


And finally - we are arguing over where the line is - maybe - but the point is if it was an absolute we would not be arguing.

Not so, we agree there is a line, and we agree that the spectrum upon which it lies is bounded (there are finite ends at both ends), if we was boundless, then it would be truly relativistic.


From inside it looks different .. especially as I work in a Maori education institute - and tribal membership is very obvious and a major part of people's lives.

Yes, we may or may not live in our tribal areas (I don't) - that is why I said in a contemporary context. It is certainly important at work that I do have tribal affiliations .. it makes me an insider. We have people on staff here who are Pakeha - and they feel and react differently to the rest of us. We make space for them - but it's a relationship with tensions 0- because they think differently.

I agree - but you are using the word "tribal" in a different way - with expanded contexts, than I am.

Now, I'm going to preface this with 'no offence intended' since I have no wish to be seen to trivialize ones Tribal connections:

Would you say that for some people The Tribal Membership is more important than others?
Would you say also that the important that it holds for some is equivalent to the importance that say Rugby holds for a zealous fan?
Or perhaps from my own perspective - one look at me will tell you that I'm an avid Metal fan, in how I look, act etc. There's a culture, a history (although not as long or as rich as any full society) that I belong to etc.

The reason I'm focusing on this is part of a wider thought I've had about western society and how it appears that by being able to inhabit multiple tribes simultaneously, is how we've learned to (mostly) avoid tribal Warfare. For example, we can be disagreeing on this point, each in our tribal camps, yet should we be on a back road somewhere, we are in agreement, from within the same tribal camp.

And yes, I am using it in an expanded context - as I think that is key.


It is hard because most people do not know how to live outside our civilization - they have romantic notions of what "living off the land" actually entails - such as hard work. Growing your own food is harder than walking to the corner store ... setting up a water supply is harder than turning on a tap .. Been there - done that ..
Which option is preferable? Having experienced both I would choose living off the land. But I'm old and don't have children and grandchildren to do it for me .. At my age (and somewhat broken condition) it's practicably easier not to - but I still live rurally, so I grow food and don't rely on a piped water supply .. but my knees certainly feel it when I climb the hill for maintenance on our spring.

Hence my derision for people who don't practice what they preach and my admiration (though we disagree) for people who do.

What you've described however is one of my key points - you would choose, but you've hit a limitation. And therein lies my critique. By your own admission, the perks of the West, allowing you to live in a modicum of comfort, compared to a subsistence lifestyle - must outweigh the benefits of eschewing it, because you choose not to.

Should probably add, I have no derision aimed at you, at least you've gone as far as you can go and admit where you can't go any further.


Having experienced both I would go with a rejection of contemporary civilization .. I would have gone even further than I did - if I had the resources to do so .. gone total self-sufficiency ..

Many people I know who do that say they would never go back.

But I think we are talking about two slightly different things - a return to the basic life style happens on an individual level.

What you seem to be talking about is a group doing it. But that can only happen in a modern context. It would be impossible and very stupid to ask Indigenous hunters to give up their guns, their utes etc and return to the days of foot hunting with bows and arrows. As it woud be to give up modern cooking technology and return to fire-based cooking .. and most people do not have the knowledge to do that (I do have hunting bows, though they were never used by Maori).

The second issue is how such a society is organised. And it is impossible to return to the old ways of social organisation - our minds are different from the past - so the social organisation can only be on contemporary ways or social organisation.

The group is made of individuals who make decisions - Collectively most people choose the Western style of life, for all it's ills, because it's a darn-sight easier than the alternative. There are those we both agree that desire to be master of their domain, free from all interference and so choose the harder road - again, nothing but respect from me for them.

That second issue is an interesting one - whilst there are some things in that statement I entirely agree with, I don't think we are all that far removed from the past. The number of post-apocalyptic stories whereby we descend into the warring factions of old tells me that it's still there, bubbling below the surface. When I go to an All Blacks game and see people with their faces painted, just like War Paint, It's still there. When I look at Gangs and Gang culture, there are too many parallels to purely rule it out.

[TheDemonLord]

Lord Below!

Well I did see the word Suzuki in there as I skimmed so maybe there is some hope of some interesting banter. But guys keep your posts to one or two quotes else you look like Husi.

Feel free to reference each others parentage/ relationship with Satan/ sexual practices with small furry animals as required.

Go!

But I like Banditbandit?

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F70983512_10157645980439485_4700024746857725952 _n.jpg%3F_nc_cat%3D1%26_nc_oc%3DAQlQIGirmzVSV8ELG_ 4GfTU51Q58QSQpyj5kQyhxGnw17G44LkW0hChNYrWc6jv_APA% 26_nc_ht%3Dscontent-lhr3-1.xx%26oh%3Dc6924d079a9071032b9e188fcc444701%26oe% 3D5DFD7B6B&hash=48f1b6da4f7e89790eeec25b0f483b0b

[Laava]

Look what this ridiculous cunt is up to now! Bullying like an immature schoolkid...

http://nzh.tw/12269277

[F5 Dave]

That's not like a schoolkid. That's weaponising misinformation and why he is do dangerous. Blatent lies told to people who just want the story will be believed or at least for long enough that they distrust the victim enough not to care as they 'deserve it' . You know, because they love satan. We saw that picture of them standing next to him, at some sort of costume party, but. . . Or the video of them dancing. Or whatever.

[Laava]

He should be shot with a ball of his own shit!

[husaberg]

Lord Below!

Well I did see the word Suzuki in there as I skimmed so maybe there is some hope of some interesting banter. But guys keep your posts to one or two quotes else you look like Husi.

Feel free to reference each others parentage/ relationship with Satan/ sexual practices with small furry animals as required.

Go!

Hey, if it were simple subjects like is Dave a prick? i would be able to give one word answers.;)
Where the heck did you see Suzuki.

[F5 Dave]

I dunno it was hidden in there somewhere demon post but reference to BB post but you can't see it for all those other words.

[austingtir]

Look what this ridiculous cunt is up to now! Bullying like an immature schoolkid...

http://nzh.tw/12269277


Ilhan is going to be lucky to even stay in the country or out of jail. The dumb bitch married her brother for fucks sake frauded on all sorts of stuff. Then married another islamic dude and cheated on him with one of those white males she seems to think are all racists. Its all just to convenient.
When Trump goes in balls deep on stuff like this you know he's usually right (well you might not).

Unfortunately for us Golly G and co dont appear to be quite as dumb otherwise we could be rid of them too. Of course they are running in antifa circles so when they inevitably get named a terrorist organization perhaps that could be the straw that broke the camels back for them too.

[austingtir]

Trump is a legend.

https://external-preview.redd.it/6QAmmwUanjtEhUT0asnULYnAghf3vIDVmJIrUXyXIgE.png?au to=webp&c1faad0f

[austingtir]

The current degenerate poster child of the left and climate change.... wearing an antifa shirt....

I knew there was something off about her (I mean more so than the autism).

https://preview.redd.it/2w7b7h5cfmn31.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&6bbc7a3b

[F5 Dave]

I hear Trump breaks into maternity hospitals at night to pluck out newborn hearts and eat them raw.

Then hes been donating to NASA on the proviso that they stop covering up the Earth is round myth.

Then he married Satan and played some rock music backwards.

[Laava]

I see young Austy has been allowed to post some. I can't see it tho,...nice! At a guess tho, he will be calling someone, prob me, a lefty...

[F5 Dave]

Actually no. He's come to his senses and apologised for being a obvious troll.

He thought that it would impress some wimin and they might let them touch their boobies. Accepting that hes going to have to pay for it, is a humbling step I would imagine.

[Laava]

Mate it would absolutely be worthwhile if you get to touch boobies!

[austingtir]

ATM this thread should be renamed are Trudeau and Canada the biggest ever embarrasments....

I mean seriously not only is the dude Castro's long lost son but he's got some sort of fetish with going blackface and dressing up as indians....
Jacinda's got some work to do to catch up here...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9MeTZPdv9w


Although Ilhan Nur Said (omar) is giving him a run for his money


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AumNt2aDhnI

[Laava]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQnqaH7PejgdCQmp_u4pr-Pj0tFgId91o5CX6RpxNLuiB3SBZCc

[Laava]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcREskU7laTRFcCKZ3X0H2BpdXqR-PFXkQ0JPpM45OHNy-JlEJJS
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OcBEAnOyyk0/WcFwCEmNc6I/AAAAAAAAMP0/WPaR-JBSo0gXwrpQkI860g_boq1Z0UUbwCLcBGAs/s1600/trump-clown-king.jpg

[Alister]

Ilhan is going to be lucky to even stay in the country or out of jail. The dumb bitch married her brother for fucks sake frauded on all sorts of stuff. Then married another islamic dude and cheated on him with one of those white males she seems to think are all racists. Its all just to convenient.
When Trump goes in balls deep on stuff like this you know he's usually right (well you might not).

Unfortunately for us Golly G and co dont appear to be quite as dumb otherwise we could be rid of them too. Of course they are running in antifa circles so when they inevitably get named a terrorist organization perhaps that could be the straw that broke the camels back for them too.

Raymond!!! Here you are. Where have you been? I miss you terribly.

I have not been happy since you ran off a few months ago.

Our bed is always cold.

I miss riding with you. I like being on my own bike, but I miss riding behind you with my arms wrapped around you.

Rupert, our baby, has been pining for you. He is not eating much. He is not interested in his favourite treats. He sits by the door waiting for you to come home.

I miss you. I miss your strong arms around me as we go to sleep.

Please come home my darling. Life is not the same without you.

[Banditbandit]

Where the heck did you see Suzuki.

It was here - by TDL ..






we both agree that somethings are absolutely awesome (Suzuki's wonderful line of Sport-Touring motorcycles for example), accepting those two premises, our disagreement is not whether or not there is a line, but only where the line is.

[pritch]

It's a bit much to expect a clown to act like a king, especially if you give him the queen's crown.

[Banditbandit]

This then is our disagreement. And TBH I think it's one that will never be bridged - there are some things that are so abhorrent as to never be acceptable. When you apply the test of 'if this was done to me...' proves it not to be right.




Here is our fundamental difference ..


You say there are some things that are so abhorrent as to never be acceptable ..

I say that at some point they were seen to be acceptable ... Therefore, there is no such thing as a moral absolute.

[Alister]

Trump is a legend.

https://external-preview.redd.it/6QAmmwUanjtEhUT0asnULYnAghf3vIDVmJIrUXyXIgE.png?au to=webp&c1faad0f

That's not nice.

[Laava]

Raymond!!! Here you are. Where have you been? I miss you terribly.

I have not been happy since you ran off a few months ago.

Our bed is always cold.

I miss riding with you. I like being on my own bike, but I miss riding behind you with my arms wrapped around you.

Rupert, our baby, has been pining for you. He is not eating much. He is not interested in his favourite treats. He sits by the door waiting for you to come home.

I miss you. I miss your strong arms around me as we go to sleep.

Please come home my darling. Life is not the same without you.
Ahahahahaha! Awesome post!

[austingtir]

See, I told you lot you should be referring to him as God emperor Trump....

Bloody pagans. Indian brahs be putting you lot to shame.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=vAEP-FhFGmA

[pete376403]

See, I told you lot you should be referring to him as God emperor Trump....

Bloody pagans. Indian brahs be putting you lot to shame.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=vAEP-FhFGmA

Is that at Karni Mata temple? The one where they worship rats? Would seem appropriate for the biggest rat of all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karni_Mata_Temple

[austingtir]

Is that at Karni Mata temple? The one where they worship rats? Would seem appropriate for the biggest rat of all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karni_Mata_Temple


Its the prophecy of convefe.... if you were paying attention this would be obvious.:innocent:

[TheDemonLord]

Here is our fundamental difference ..

You say there are some things that are so abhorrent as to never be acceptable ..

I say that at some point they were seen to be acceptable ... Therefore, there is no such thing as a moral absolute.

There's a secondary part though - which is that whilst we agree on the historical record - you cannot bring yourself to make an argument that they are or were acceptable.

It's that last bit that is Key, because it is my conjecture is that the reason you can't make the argument is that it is a form of an absolute. One that neither you nor I can or will compromise on.

I put it to you that the only way it can be considered 'Moral' is if one assumes certain false a priori beliefs (Like Phrenology or a supremacist doctrine), but such a deception cannot does not change the absolute nature of it.

[austingtir]

Rampant mental illness being paraded around on the world stage...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=ULmk8mhiClI

[Banditbandit]

There's a secondary part though - which is that whilst we agree on the historical record - you cannot bring yourself to make an argument that they are or were acceptable.

It's that last bit that is Key, because it is my conjecture is that the reason you can't make the argument is that it is a form of an absolute. One that neither you nor I can or will compromise on.

I put it to you that the only way it can be considered 'Moral' is if one assumes certain false a priori beliefs (Like Phrenology or a supremacist doctrine), but such a deception cannot does not change the absolute nature of it.

I think I said it earlier - I do wonder what future generations will think of our actions and what they will consider to be immoral ..

Yes - former beliefs were false ..

I can make an argument for any of those things - I'm a philosopher - we can make arguments for anything - but I can't make an argument that I find convincing ..

[TheDemonLord]

I think I said it earlier - I do wonder what future generations will think of our actions and what they will consider to be immoral ..

That depends on what happens - if there is some form of definitive clash (ie a Civil War or other landmark conflict) then there are a few things that I think will be considered Immoral, but the ones I'm thinking of will likely be forgotten in the mists of time, only to repeat themselves like they inevitably do.


Yes - former beliefs were false ..

I can make an argument for any of those things - I'm a philosopher - we can make arguments for anything - but I can't make an argument that I find convincing ..

It's that last part for me, none that are convincing, which goes to my notion that there is *something* that is absolute about it.

[austingtir]

Ivanka aint no embarrassment.... Lord have mercy!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFKpiAiUYAA5Jdq?format=jpg&name=small

[austingtir]

Yep, the entire family are ANTIFA activists spouting communist propaganda!!

https://i.imgur.com/6pbK3Dr.jpg

[austingtir]

Further proof that global warming is a myth...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFLBti2W4AAlhWp.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFKpiAiUYAA5Jdq?format=jpg&name=small


https://media.giphy.com/media/fqVMhcFOnKwqQ/giphy.gif

[pritch]

Well in keeping with the thread title, if Johnson isn't the biggest ever embarrassment, he must now be the most embarrassed.

The Supreme Court in Britain has just ruled that Johnson's five week suspension of Parliament was unlawful. "The Prime Minister's advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, void and of no effect". The decision means that the current situation is as if Johnson's suspension of Parliament never happened.

The decision of a full panel of eleven judges was unanimous. The Speaker is immediately making moves to get Parliament sitting again. Predictably there are already calls for Johnson's resignation.

In the old days he'd have lost more than his job, he'd have lost his head. They took lying to the Queen seriously back then.

[Laava]

https://youtu.be/W0pTpwqkB48

[Banditbandit]

It's that last part for me, none that are convincing, which goes to my notion that there is *something* that is absolute about it.

Just because I don't find them convincing - and neither do you - does not mean that other people will also find them unconvincing .

They may well find them totally convincing ..

For instance, there are people here who may well find Ayn Rand's ethics of selfishness to be utterly convincing - and looking wider Rand convinced a large number of influential capitalists of the virtue of their selfishness ..

[Banditbandit]

Well in keeping with the thread title, if Johnson isn't the biggest ever embarrassment, he must now be the most embarrassed.

The Supreme Court in Britain has just ruled that Johnson's five week suspension of Parliament was unlawful. "The Prime Minister's advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, void and of no effect". The decision means that the current situation is as if Johnson's suspension of Parliament never happened.

The decision of a full panel of eleven judges was unanimous. The Speaker is immediately making moves to get Parliament sitting again. Predictably there are already calls for Johnson's resignation.

In the old days he'd have lost more than his job, he'd have lost his head. They took lying to the Queen seriously back then.



https://youtu.be/W0pTpwqkB48


I fell about laughing (have to spread reputation etc etc .. )

[TheDemonLord]

Just because I don't find them convincing - and neither do you - does not mean that other people will also find them unconvincing .

They may well find them totally convincing ..

For instance, there are people here who may well find Ayn Rand's ethics of selfishness to be utterly convincing - and looking wider Rand convinced a large number of influential capitalists of the virtue of their selfishness ..

Sure, but in the cases where they have found them convincing - they are either:

1: Completely Amoral (think Psychopaths, Sadists etc.)
or
2: Operating under false assumptions

I can't find any other situation where it could be convincing, and when even the Philosopher can't find them Convincing, it tells me that there is something shared and something deep that both of us hold to - that guides this decision, something neither of us can practically refute (namely, we may say things contrary to it, but we cannot act contrary to it)

You could also point that option 1 is really an offshoot of option 2 - since People like that are unable to empathize with others.

[TheDemonLord]

Well in keeping with the thread title, if Johnson isn't the biggest ever embarrassment, he must now be the most embarrassed.

The Supreme Court in Britain has just ruled that Johnson's five week suspension of Parliament was unlawful. "The Prime Minister's advice to Her Majesty was unlawful, void and of no effect". The decision means that the current situation is as if Johnson's suspension of Parliament never happened.

The decision of a full panel of eleven judges was unanimous. The Speaker is immediately making moves to get Parliament sitting again. Predictably there are already calls for Johnson's resignation.

In the old days he'd have lost more than his job, he'd have lost his head. They took lying to the Queen seriously back then.

The decision by the courts to involve themselves in a Political Matter is both unprecedented and extremely dangerous.

If you are wanting a Civil War, then have 'the establishment' directly oppose 'the people' is a good way to start it.

However, this could all be solved by a General Election - and Comrade Corbyn, despite asking Theresa May for the better part of 2 years every session of Parliament for a General Election has now gone all shy when offered one.

This shows the reality that Labour and the various remain parties would get absolutely wiped - the country wants Brexit, they'd like a Deal but are perfectly happy to risk a No-Deal just to get it over an done with.

[Banditbandit]

The decision by the courts to involve themselves in a Political Matter is both unprecedented and extremely dangerous.



Not, it is not unprecedented .. and yes, it can be risky - but it appears that you are suggesting that Parliament and the PM are above the law.

That is completely wrong. Both Parliament and the PM must act in a legal manner ..

[TheDemonLord]

Not, it is not unprecedented .. and yes, it cab be risky - but it appears that you are suggesting that Parliament and the PM are above the law.

That is completely wrong. Both Parliament and the PM must act in a legal manner ..

Well, yes and no, There's the separation of powers between the Judiciary and the Legislature, there's also the fact that the Courts cannot rule (for example) on a motion or piece of legislation before it's passed into Law.

The Prerogative powers for example are above the Law, they are held by the Monarch, the decision is ultimately with the Queen, but she (by convention) acts on the advise of her Ministers (in this case, the PM).

Although if my understanding is correct, although the Queen holds the power, she can only wield it when requested.

As for the Unprecedented bit - I think JRM mentioned that the last time the courts ruled on a purely Political Matter - it was in the 1600s, so in that manner it's very much unprecedented.

All of this, however, is beside the point - It's all just tactics by people who screech democracy, yet cannot accept that they lost.

[husaberg]

Not, it is not unprecedented .. and yes, it cab be risky - but it appears that you are suggesting that Parliament and the PM are above the law.

That is completely wrong. Both Parliament and the PM must act in a legal manner ..
Don't you just love when some tory gets caught breaking the law they try and suggest they are still right even though the reasons they don't are clearly outlined in the ruling.

But Supreme Court president Lady Hale emphasised in the ruling that the case was "not about when and on what terms" the UK left the EU - it was about the decision to suspend Parliament.

It comes after the court ruled it was impossible to conclude there had been any reason "let alone a good reason - to advise Her Majesty to prorogue Parliament for five weeks".

Judges said it was wrong to stop MPs carrying out duties in the run-up to the Brexit deadline on 31 October.

But you know facts are not going to stop the people upset they didnt get their own way.

I remember a dude suspended the German Parliament in the thirties so he could do what he wanted.....................

[pete376403]

Jonathan Pie talks about how Boris doesn't understand that running Britain is hard work
https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/516778392474728/?t=14

[Banditbandit]

Sure, but in the cases where they have found them convincing - they are either:

1: Completely Amoral (think Psychopaths, Sadists etc.)
or
2: Operating under false assumptions;

I wonder what false assumptions future generations will think that we hold?

[TheDemonLord]

I wonder what false assumptions future generations will think that we hold?

Likely shitloads.

The question will be why we held them and did we continue to do so in the face of contradictory evidence.

[Katman]

......and did we continue to do so in the face of contradictory evidence.

Well there's currently plenty of evidence of that.

[husaberg]

Well there's currently plenty of evidence of that.
True, there is entire threads of you doing this.
The fumiest are when you claim to know more than doctors about vaccine safety, when your medical experience is likely not even the equivilent to a first aid badge from the boy scouts.
Or the ones where you claim there was no gas chambers and the holocaust was just made up by the hundreds of thousands of those that experienced it.
Especially funny, when the people you claim, can prove it never occurred, even admit that it did.

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/pbitch-jpg.170371/

[austingtir]

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
Oct 2
The Do Nothing Democrats should be focused on building up our Country, not wasting everyone’s time and energy on BULLSHIT, which is what they have been doing ever since I got overwhelmingly elected in 2016, 223-306. Get a better candidate this time, you’ll need it!

[TheDemonLord]

Picture

Bro...

You need to work on your Pornhub searches....

Either that or your hatred is really a cover for a deep-seated fetish...

[Laava]

Bro...

You need to work on your Pornhub searches....

Either that or your hatred is really a cover for a deep-seated fetish...

I edited your face out and put Putins there. I thought you'ld be happy! There's no pleasing some people...

[TheDemonLord]

I edited your face out and put Putins there. I thought you'ld be happy! There's no pleasing some people...

If you are tugging it to my face, then the problems are far worse than I first feared....

[jasonu]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/pbitch-jpg.170371/

Get that from a gay porn site did ya.

[oldrider]

Funny? - in a warped kinda way! - Yeah :lol:

[Laava]

If you are tugging it to my face, then the problems are far worse than I first feared....

Good comeback...👍

[Laava]

Get that from a gay porn site did ya.
No I googled Trump and that came up. Why, was that where you have seen it before?

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fwingsoverscotland.co m%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F10%2Fimg413.jpg&hash=ceefde0df859e570caab8467559751f2

[austingtir]

So how come no photos like this of Trump have turned up yet?

Thread should be renamed everyone but Trump is the biggest ever embarrasments!

http://bucket.trending.com/trending/reddit/2019-05-30/chinese-president-exposed-as-this-immage-will-get-you-killed-in.jpg

[austingtir]

Yep Trumps such an embarrasment!!:laugh:


MAGA!!


From 11 billion of farmers exports to china to 50 billion.... yep thats embarrassing alright.... (for china)

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769469085/trump-announces-phase-one-of-trade-deal-with-china


Meanwhile over here in NZ the logging industry is about to go down the shitter and the Greens and Labour are still looking forward to totally gutting the dairy industry before they get kicked out next year. Im sure they are going to take into account the fact China just got ass rammed by Trump in the tradewar and will be taking way more american farming goods than they were..... Or am I giving these idiots way to much credit??

Who's the embarrassment again?

[Banditbandit]

Yep Trumps such an embarrasment!!:laugh:


MAGA!!


From 11 billion of farmers exports to china to 50 billion.... yep thats embarrassing alright.... (for china)




So China is buying from Brazil and Argentina - and will probably never go back to buying from the USA ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/china-ramps-up-brazil-soy-imports-as-u-s-trade-war-worsens

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/policy/trade/article222257655.html

[Banditbandit]

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769469085/trump-announces-phase-one-of-trade-deal-with-china

Yeah - this one will be like his disarmament agreement with Rocket Man .. all bullshit

[austingtir]

So China is buying from Brazil and Argentina - and will probably never go back to buying from the USA ..

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-16/china-ramps-up-brazil-soy-imports-as-u-s-trade-war-worsens

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/policy/trade/article222257655.html



Its doesnt matter because you dont understand how the trade deficit works. Trump holds all the leverage in this trade war and deepstate CIA MSM stories trying to inflate China's influence higher than it actually is will not change that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxN12jzHrqI&feature=youtu.be

[Kickaha]

Meanwhile over here in NZ the logging industry is about to go down the shitter
For reasons totally unrelated to anything any political party is doing though

[austingtir]

For reasons totally unrelated to anything any political party is doing though


I never said it was but I went on to point out an industry they ARE attacking, when you have a major industry like that about to pretty much fail and then you go attacking other industries that are helping prop everything up....

I was talking to a guy yesterday who just left a well paying job manufacturing logging equipment because they are laying off now he's in light stainless jobbing shop with alot of dairy industry contracts.... where's he going to go when theres no money in that?

An economic collapse is coming and this is how our current government is acting Winston knows this yet he still allows labour and the Greens to do what they are doing...

Labour is already dropping in the "polls" where are they going to be this time next year when everything is going to shit?


https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/central-bank-issues-stunning-warning-if-entire-system-collapses-gold-will-be-needed-start


This is similar to 2008 all over again but I reckon it will be worse. (mainly because of inept leadership)....

[husaberg]

For reasons totally unrelated to anything any political party is doing though

Same with the dairy industry it was in trouble under the last government, so was the GFC ,but who cares about inconvenient facts, Some religious tosspot in Rotorua who cant even bind a woman in a countryu of 4.5 million people that doesny even have a bike thinks the conservative party will fix it.

[Beekeeper]

I never said it was but I went on to point out an industry they ARE attacking, when you have a major industry like that about to pretty much fail and then you go attacking other industries that are helping prop everything up....

I was talking to a guy yesterday who just left a well paying job manufacturing logging equipment because they are laying off now he's in light stainless jobbing shop with alot of dairy industry contracts.... where's he going to go when theres no money in that?

An economic collapse is coming and this is how our current government is acting Winston knows this yet he still allows labour and the Greens to do what they are doing...

Labour is already dropping in the "polls" where are they going to be this time next year when everything is going to shit?


https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/central-bank-issues-stunning-warning-if-entire-system-collapses-gold-will-be-needed-start


This is similar to 2008 all over again but I reckon it will be worse. (mainly because of inept leadership)....

If you wait long enough there will be a recession, havent you worked that out yet? Oh and btw:

"Zero Hedge is a batshit insane Austrian school (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Austrian_school) finance blog run by two pseudonymous founders who post articles under the name "Tyler Durden," after the character from Fight Club (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fight_Club). It's essentially apocalypse porn. It has accurately predicted 200 of the last 2 recessions (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Recession)."

[austingtir]

If you wait long enough there will be a recession, havent you worked that out yet? Oh and btw:

"Zero Hedge is a batshit insane Austrian school (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Austrian_school) finance blog run by two pseudonymous founders who post articles under the name "Tyler Durden," after the character from Fight Club (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fight_Club). It's essentially apocalypse porn. It has accurately predicted 200 of the last 2 recessions (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Recession)."


Still better and more relevant than vox, salon and buzfeed which are Husaberks goto's.

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/ae2f8dc1-0845-4e39-b656-f3d71ea6b508-jpeg.171835/https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/webkit-fake-url://9f40ce68-1398-406c-a65c-355dc0d6326d/imagejpeg
https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/550b9f61-a839-4759-bc4f-c487b34d58ff-jpeg.171834/

[austingtir]

TDS and more TDS...


https://i.imgur.com/fcOF5v9.jpg

[austingtir]

CNN the biggest ever embarrassment?

"To protect the Republic"


https://youtu.be/m7XZmugtLv4

[austingtir]

Trumps tweets ageing like fine wine!:

https://i.redd.it/kt4lyzkiums31.jpg

[Viking01]

https://sputniknews.com/columnists/201910141077049052-russia-to-salvage-us-mess/

Is patience, a plan and continued diplomacy having some effect ?

[austingtir]

https://sputniknews.com/columnists/201910141077049052-russia-to-salvage-us-mess/

Is patience, a plan and continued diplomacy having some effect ?


Nobody but the Turks and everyone but the USA is unleashing chaos on Syria.

A war which the probably millions of deaths and affected peoples which should lie squarely at the feet of the OBAMA admin!!


To act like this entire thing is Trumps fault is absurd and only shows people including those in the media who are totally clueless (or shills trying to spin it) as to how and why events have taken place.

The rest of the article which I didnt really read because of the outlandish title is probably fair enough.

[austingtir]

ABC news releases fresh footage of Turkey incinerating the Kurds....

https://i.redd.it/k1gyp2x4mos31.png

[sugilite]

CNN the biggest ever embarrassment?

"To protect the Republic"


https://youtu.be/m7XZmugtLv4

Don't see where the embarrassment is. The video was repeating footage less than 5 minutes in:yawn: And pretty much revealing the boss telling them to follow the impeachment - you know, the largest political story going on in the USA right now. Really not seeing what the big deal is here. Anyone who thinks they are seeing an accurate representation of any political reporting on any channel one cares to mention is dreaming. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle of the two opposing spheres. Nothing to see here, so again :yawn:

[austingtir]

Don't see where the embarrassment is. The video was repeating footage less than 5 minutes in:yawn: And pretty much revealing the boss telling them to follow the impeachment - you know, the largest political story going on in the USA right now. Really not seeing what the big deal is here. Anyone who thinks they are seeing an accurate representation of any political reporting on any channel one cares to mention is dreaming. The truth always lies somewhere in the middle of the two opposing spheres. Nothing to see here, so again :yawn:

Im astonished at your take on the above video, astonished I tell you (not).

I guess you just take people lying directly to your face better than me.... The above employee of CNN said it best at the end of the vid: I just want to be able to watch the news and get a balanced point of view without all the propaganda and politics.

Its really should not be a difficult thing to ask for should it?

Of course most people dont even realize Obama changed the law to allow the press in the states to propagandize their own people ( they could not do that before then) and thats where it all changed. It seems there are some like yourself that are all for living in places that eventually become full on communist dicatorships. Well this is how it starts.



So whats your take on ABC (and others) getting caught putting fake footage up of the assault on the kurds?

[sugilite]

Im astonished at your take on the above video, astonished I tell you (not).

So whats your take on ABC (and others) getting caught putting fake footage up of the assault on the kurds?
Not seen the ABC footage, but if you are correct, shame on them for doing it.
As mentioned, very very little news you see on ANY channel/organization is accurate.
I used to work as a reporter for a paper many years ago and have seen the bullshit first hand.

[austingtir]

Not seen the ABC footage, but if you are correct, shame on them for doing it.
As mentioned, very very little news you see on ANY channel/organization is accurate.
I used to work as a reporter for a paper many years ago and have seen the bullshit first hand.


Its absurd I suggest you look into it.

On one they took footage from a gun range somewhere in the states erased the american flags at the sides and doctored the shit out of the film to make it look like in the middle east.

On another they took footage from 1983 in Iraq or some other shithole and doctored it to look like the aftermath of a turkish attack on the kurds.

This one shows how much they doctored the footage. As I said its absurd and something thats impossible to just play off as a mistake as they've clearly fucked around with that footage for hours to get it look like it did.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/10/14/abc_news_footage_of_slaughter_in_syria_is_actually _footage_from_a_kentucky_gun_range.html

[Banditbandit]

The above employee of CNN said it best at the end of the vid: I just want to be able to watch the news and get a balanced point of view without all the propaganda and politics.

Its really should not be a difficult thing to ask for should it?



You're quite stupid aren't you ..

ALL news is propaganda for one side or the other - because it is ALWAYS presented from a point of view ...

The fact that any event makes the news is because someone has decided it is important to tell us that it happened .. their point of view of what matters, of what is important, makes it a form of propaganda ..

[sugilite]

You're quite stupid aren't you ..

ALL news is propaganda for one side or the other - because it is ALWAYS presented from a point of view ...

The fact that any event makes the news is because someone has decided it is important to tell us that it happened .. their point of view of what matters, of what is important, makes it a form of propaganda ..

Truer words were never spoken.
Austin won't get it though because his critical thinking starts and stops at the right is truth and the left is lies.

[Katman]

ALL news is propaganda for one side or the other ...

Does that include all the links that you have shared?

[Banditbandit]

Does that include all the links that you have shared?

Of course it does - that would seem to be a very obvious truth ..

[Banditbandit]

Truer words were never spoken.
Austin won't get it though because his critical thinking starts and stops at the right is truth and the left is lies.

Austins (a good car in their day) are now slow, cluncky and old - just like his thinking ....

[Banditbandit]

https://www.facebook.com/thedailymash/videos/570139660193971/?t=0

[sugilite]

Austins (a good car in their day) are now slow, cluncky and old - just like his thinking ....

Yeah, isn't our sole right wing ranter adorbs! I wonder if he will stick around after the next US election?

[austingtir]

Yeah, isn't our sole right wing ranter adorbs! I wonder if he will stick around after the next US election?

You wouldnt take me up on that bet without making the terms outlandish. A simple ban bet is all we need the forum mods can adjudicate its pretty simple. Theres no need to go trying to make up terms of a simple ban bet.

If Trump looses I wont post in here again end of story you wont even need the mods to give me the boot. Now if you dont agree to this then I'll happily stick around either way.

So theres at least two or three of you that seem adament Trumps going to loose. Put up or shut up boyos!!





























BTW Its pretty obvious I'll be sticking around.

[sugilite]

You wouldnt take me up on that bet without making the terms outlandish. A simple ban bet is all we need the forum mods can adjudicate its pretty simple. Theres no need to go trying to make up terms of a simple ban bet.

If Trump looses I wont post in here again end of story you wont even need the mods to give me the boot. Now if you dont agree to this then I'll happily stick around. BTW Its pretty obvious I'll be sticking around.

Oh, you must mean the bet that actually put up something meaningful that you initially went for then back peddled out as fast as you could! I especially chortled at your Manfield comments :laugh:
I'm sure the mods would also laugh in your face if you contracted them about such a thing, oh wait, how old are you exactly?

Besides, when Trump loses (in your speak looses) you won't be back anyways, so to my mind your already goneburger. But watch out sport, Trump just loves a burger, and once he is in prison where he belongs, he will be wanting a little tender sweet meat :bleh:

[Katman]

Of course it does - that would seem to be a very obvious truth ..

Fair enough - as long as you accept that you're just peddling propaganda from the other viewpoint.

[austingtir]

Oh, you must mean the bet that actually put up something meaningful that you initially went for then back peddled out as fast as you could! I especially chortled at your Manfield comments :laugh:
I'm sure the mods would also laugh in your face if you contracted them about such a thing, oh wait, how old are you exactly?

Besides, when Trump loses (in your speak looses) you won't be back anyways, so to my mind your already goneburger. But watch out sport, Trump just loves a burger, and once he is in prison where he belongs, he will be wanting a little tender sweet meat :bleh:


So mods this sounds like he accepted the obvious terms what says you?

[sugilite]

^^Desperate!

[austingtir]

^^ scared!!

[Banditbandit]

^^ Stupid ...

[Banditbandit]

If Trump looses I wont post in here again end of story





:rofl: :wings: :woohoo: :Punk: :wari: :wings::wings: :laugh: :woohoo: :wings: :wavey: :rofl: :Punk: :wings:

[Viking01]

Nobody but the Turks and everyone but the USA is unleashing chaos on Syria.

A war which the probably millions of deaths and affected peoples which should lie squarely at the feet of the OBAMA admin!!

To act like this entire thing is Trumps fault is absurd and only shows people including those in the media who are totally clueless (or shills trying to spin it) as to how and why events have taken place.

The rest of the article which I didnt really read because of the outlandish title is probably fair enough.

Afternoon.

You don't think that your second sentence rather contradicts your first,
(irrespective of which administration was/is in power in the US) ?

I see in the interim that Don sent the two Mike's over to Ankara to have
a little whisper in Erdogan's ear, and before you know it, we now have a
temporary ceasefire:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/turkey-military-operation-syria-latest-updates-191017051518215.html

I'd have liked to be a fly on the wall for that meeting, and to have heard
how the conversation unfolded. I suspect it was less about humanitarian
concerns and more economic and financial:

https://www.riskscreen.com/kyc360/news/settlement-talks-for-bank-followed-pressure-on-trump-by-turkeys-leader/

Anyway, it seems that an agreement has been reached, and that all parties
(except Syria, who was "hosting the party") has come out of the little foray
largely intact. I've resisted adding the words "with honour".

As for Syria, well, sadly, they drew the short straw (yet again):

https://www.checkpointasia.net/us-bombs-obliterates-its-own-syria-base-after-withdrawal/

Sadly, their largest cement works (on the M4 highway) has suffered, which
will of course impact heavily upon any future Syrian reconstruction work):

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Lafarge+Cement/@36.5519829,38.6000808,14z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x15314a7315555555:0xda4d116e5b823 b2d!

8m2!3d36.5554214!4d38.5913497

But I suppose that it helped the US "keep weapons out of the wrong hands",
and to "tie up a few other little loose ends" :

http://maximechaix.info/?p=3821

[ Edit ]

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/52406.htm

https://southfront.org/erdogan-says-he-has-no-objection-to-damascus-control-over-northeastern-syria/

[austingtir]

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1131143518]:Punk: /QUOTE]


Well atleast one has put his hand up.


Hope the mods are taking note....

[pritch]

Meanwhile back with the propaganda...

A former journalist of my acquaintance said he learned early on, when instructed to write an article, to ask, "For or against?"

It's not all propaganda though, almost every night TV1 fuck up their overseas news reports, if not by an actual error, by leaving out important context. Hanlon's razor comes into play, "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

[sugilite]

Trump pounding out letters to World leaders like a 3rd grade bully with bad spelling. Reminds me of a fan of his.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eL-NcBxYnfg

[sugilite]

No US President is allowed to profit from his position in office.

Trump - "Party and my place - bring all your money and pay my huge beautiful fees!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz5izkwLEsA

[austingtir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-WOTR8qA54

"Fredo"


Its rather amusing that you think CNN or any of their anchors still holds any weight....

[austingtir]

No US President is allowed to profit from his position in office.

Trump - "Party and my place - bring all your money and pay my huge beautiful fees!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz5izkwLEsA


How much money did the likes of Obama go into the whitehouse with and how much money has he got now?


Its like you live in a cave somewhere.

[sugilite]

How much money did the likes of Obama go into the whitehouse with and how much money has he got now?


Its like you live in a cave somewhere.
You really are adorbs :love:
You can be rich going into the presidency, you can make more money after you leave it. What you cannot do is use the office of the presidency to enrich-in yourself while you are there, like host an entire UN delegation at your hotel and charge them for it.
Brush up on US law sport, and clean that cave up while you are at it :yes:

[austingtir]

You really are adorbs :love:
You can be rich going into the presidency, you can make more money after you leave it. What you cannot do is use the office of the presidency to enrich-in yourself while you are there, like host an entire UN delegation at your hotel and charge them for it.
Brush up on US law sport, and clean that cave up while you are at it :yes:


If it was illegal he wouldnt be able to do it would he? You realize he handed over his business enterprise to his son right? Thats all he had to do under the law theres nothing stopping them from using any venue they see fit.

So it cant be illegal.


Why do you have to make out like things are so difficult when its actually simple?


Now the Bidens on the other hand ACTUALLY did profit and from FOREIGN POWERS no less.... Yes, yes now thats actually illegal.

Try again.

[pritch]

If it was illegal he wouldnt be able to do it would he? You realize he handed over his business enterprise to his son right? Thats all he had to do under the law theres nothing stopping them from using any venue they see fit.

So it cant be illegal.


Why do you have to make out like things are so difficult when its actually simple?


.

It is indeed simple but you really don't get it do you? Trump has been doing illegal shit nearly every single day, he does it on TV at his rallies and on the White House lawn.

Carter had to sell his peanut farm. Other presidents put their business in a blind trust. They had neither knowledge of, nor control over, the business. Trump's is nothing like that, it's a half arsed arrangement and he can take back control anytime.
Trump himself says Jr has bad judgement. Anybody who thinks Jr is allowed to run the business unsupervised hasn't been paying attention.

Then there's the emolluments clause, and he'll be in breach of that. Again. On top of all the digging for dirt on his possible political opponents, and that anybody who wants access to Trump has to stay in his hotel.

After Jack Kennedy made his brother attorney general a law was passed banning immediate family from being appointed to the administration, but Kushner and Ivanka still have positions in the White House and that too is illegal. Both have been conducting personal business from the White House. Incidentally neither of those two ornaments could pass the security checks until daddy sorted it. Kushner is also thought to have been selling secrets to the likes of MBS.

Trump himself couldn't pass a security check and periodically he blurts out top secret information embarrassing allies.

Then there's the missing millions from the inauguration accounts, all the Russian collusion and the ten counts of obstruction of justice listed in the Mueller report. The fake charity. The suspected insurance fraud, bank fraud, and years of tax fraud.

If there's any justice he will do time, but I'm not hopeful.

[austingtir]

TDS....


Your showing signs of stage 2 TDS.

Be careful because this is what stage 3 looks like: ( I mean I dont know that your not a mentally ill black woman but im praying you dont turn into one)

https://youtu.be/ouz2R-CQi8A


https://summit.news/2019/10/16/video-gender-studies-professor-blames-trump-for-black-female-obesity/

Apparently Trumps even responsible for black female obesity.... Who knew!?

Geez that dude sure gets around.

[onearmedbandit]

After Jack Kennedy made his brother attorney general a law was passed banning immediate family from being appointed to the administration, but Kushner and Ivanka still have positions in the White House and that too is illegal.


Apparently 'no'. This goes back to the Clinton's...


However, whether this administration has crossed a line is still a grey area that goes back to a 24-year-old judicial ruling involving Hillary Clinton when she was first lady. At the time, President Bill Clinton appointed Hillary to head up a healthcare task force. After a lawsuit brought by the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons against Hillary Clinton, two federal judges ruled that the federal antinepotism statute did not apply to the White House in the same way it did to other federal or executive agencies.

In other words, “it appears based on [the ruling] that certain positions in the White House may not be considered [executive-agency] positions” because the White House hasn’t always been classified as an agency, “which is what the law was limited to,” said Scott Amey, a lawyer at the Project on Government Oversight.

“We doubt that Congress intended to include the White House or the Executive Office of the President” within the constraints of the antinepotism law, Judge Laurence Silberman wrote in the 1993 ruling involving Hillary Clinton.

He added: “So, for example, a President would be barred from appointing his brother as Attorney General, but perhaps not as a White House special assistant … The anti-nepotism statute, moreover, may well bar appointment only to paid positions in government.”

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/ivanka-trump-white-house-west-wing-donald-trump-ethics-legal-2017-3?r=US&IR=T

[Laava]

:rofl: :wings: :woohoo: :Punk: :wari: :wings::wings: :laugh: :woohoo: :wings: :wavey: :rofl: :Punk: :wings:

Lol, don't hold your breath. Compulsive attn seeking trolls don't just stop posting by their own hand!

[austingtir]

CNN the biggest ever embarrassment part 3:

Must be getting rather uncomfortable working there....

https://www.projectveritas.com/2019/10/17/part-3-field-ops-manager-at-cnn-zuckers-9am-calls-are-bullshit-were-totally-left-leaningbut-we-dont-want-to-admit-it/#fvp_qbQwAQ0tDTQ,15m48s

[sugilite]

CNN the biggest ever embarrassment part 3:

https://www.projectveritas.com/2019/10/17/part-3-field-ops-manager-at-cnn-zuckers-9am-calls-are-bullshit-were-totally-left-leaningbut-we-dont-want-to-admit-it/#fvp_qbQwAQ0tDTQ,15m48s

From the commander and chief of embarrassment - "Trump spoke to media about sand in Syria and claimed the US and Italy have been allies since ancient Rome":laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/donald-trumps-america/116683953/us-president-donald-trumps-comments-on-sand-ancient-rome-baffle-italian-translator

Looks like the very stable genius skipped out on history huh? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[austingtir]

^^

Trump interview from 1980 AT 34 years old!!!

DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID HE'D DO 37+ YEARS AGO!!!!!!


https://youtu.be/nAgJAxkALyc?t=192


And the proof!


https://youtu.be/MWtXrCBKvAg?t=102

[sugilite]

^^ yet is too dumb to know the USA was not around in Roman empire days :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[husaberg]

that was because the confederate airforce beat them up:wings:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pTirPV4Onw

[austingtir]

that was because the confederate airforce beat them up:wings:

Never heard of the (secret) Army of Northern Virginia then? (and no im not referring to the civil war one)....

How little you know.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/top-secret-america-a-look-at-the-militarys-joint-special-operations-command/2011/08/30/gIQAvYuAxJ_story.html

“They have hidden behind various nicknames: the Secret Army of Northern Virginia, Task Force Green, Task Force 11, Task Force 121. JSOC leaders almost never speak in public. They have no unclassified Web site.”

As I said previously Trump is backed by military intel. Thats why none of you clowns or the deepstate can touch him.

The 2nd internet is coming.

[sugilite]

Never heard of the (secret) Army of Northern Virginia then? (and no im not referring to the civil war one)....

How little you know.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/top-secret-america-a-look-at-the-militarys-joint-special-operations-command/2011/08/30/gIQAvYuAxJ_story.html



Hold it, that article is from the Washington Post - so according to your other posts regarding that news organization, we should not believe a word of it?

[austingtir]

Hold it, that article is from the Washington Post - so according to your other posts regarding that news organization, we should not believe a word of it?

Notice the date = 2011

One year before Obama changed the rules on the media propagandizing the US people.


Try again.

[sugilite]

Notice the date = 2011

One year before Obama changed the rules on the media propagandizing the US people.


Try again.
So no fake news pre 2011?

[austingtir]

So no fake news pre 2011?


Alot less than now. They simply could not get away with what they are doing now it would of been illegal.

[austingtir]

Its funny when Zucker doesnt seem to realize he's helping Trump get re-elected again.... That TDS does funny things to people.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/10/okeefe-teases-very-serious-allegations-have-been-made-against-cnn-executive-stay-tuned-for-next-week/

[Banditbandit]

If it was illegal he wouldnt be able to do it would he?


Try again.

You're quite stupid aren't you ..

They've forced him to change the venue of the G7 for just that reason - what he was doing is illegal for a President .

[TheDemonLord]

So no fake news pre 2011?

Well, yes and no.

There have always been Media outlets with a particular view on subjects - The Guardian for example, however they have been clear about their Bias.

There have been Media outlets that have proported to be neutral - the BBC for example.

In the last decade, the Biased ones have become even more so and the ones that claim to be Neutral have become increasingly Blatant about it.

The prevailing theory is that the changes in the way that News is consumed has caused a shift towards sensationalism and bias.

[Katman]

The prevailing theory is that the changes in the way that News is consumed has caused a shift towards sensationalism and bias.

In other words, the general public has become so stupid that those who control and manipulate the mainstream media know they can easily get away with it.

[TheDemonLord]

In other words, the general public has become so stupid that those who control and manipulate the mainstream media know they can easily get away with it.

Well, I disagree - I think it's more to do with the shift left in the Universities, which produces the career journalists, who then go to work at the organisations, which normalises left-leaning thought, which allows the Universities to shift even further left, which produces more career journalists etc.

I think it's more of a Feedback loop.

The explosion in Popularity of 'Alternative Media' shows that the General Public is only too aware of the blatant manipulation, which is why they aren't consuming it as their primary news source.

[Katman]

Well, I disagree - I think it's more to do with the shift left in the Universities, which produces the career journalists, who then go to work at the organisations, which normalises left-leaning thought, which allows the Universities to shift even further left, which produces more career journalists etc.

I think it's more of a Feedback loop.

The explosion in Popularity of 'Alternative Media' shows that the General Public is only too aware of the blatant manipulation, which is why they aren't consuming it as their primary news source.

Career journalists wouldn't get their stories presented in the mainstream media if the editors didn't want those stories circulated.

And editors present to the general public whatever those who control and manipulate the mainstream media want them to present.

[Viking01]

Well, I disagree - I think it's more to do with the shift left in the Universities, which produces the career journalists, who then go to work at the organisations, which normalises left-leaning thought, which allows the Universities to shift even further left, which produces more career journalists etc.

I think it's more of a Feedback loop.

Interesting.

So, nothing to do with any "prevailing philosophy" already active at the
news organisation, enforced by editors on owners behalf, and reinforced
by journalists learning "what is expected" (and becoming "self managing"
or collect their pink slip) ?

What about right-wing media organisations, who might choose to recruit
more right-wing leaning candidates ?

If this "decreasing spiral" model you expound actually worked, surely then
left-wing media organisations would become progressively more left-wing,
right-wing media organisations would become progressively more right-wing
- and there would be none left in the middle ?

Have to say that it sounds a little like those birds that supposedly fly
in ever-decreasing circles. Until they disappear ...

[TheDemonLord]

Career journalists wouldn't get their stories presented in the mainstream media if the editors didn't want those stories circulated.

And editors present to the general public whatever those who control and manipulate the mainstream media want them to present.

And what political leanings do the Editors have? What Political leanings do those in control have?

[TheDemonLord]

Interesting.

So, nothing to do with any "prevailing philosophy" already active at the
news organisation, enforced by editors on owners behalf, and reinforced
by journalists learning "what is expected" (and becoming "self managing"
or collect their pink slip) ?

It's Certainly a factor - consider this, how many Hardcore left-wing Jouralists are likely to apply to work at The Guardian vs Breitbart?




What about right-wing media organisations, who might choose to recruit
more right-wing leaning candidates ?

There's been a fair amount of study on this - The Right wing hasn't moved substantially in their policies over the last 20-30 years, there has been some shift (especially with the influence of Liberalism into Right-wing politics).

Whereas the Left wing has moved very far-left in the same time period.


If this "decreasing spiral" model you expound actually worked, surely then
left-wing media organisations would become progressively more left-wing,
right-wing media organisations would become progressively more right-wing
- and there would be none left in the middle ?

Who is in the Middle? The only person(s) I can think of would be Tim Poole, possibly Joe Rogan as well (although as a Podcasts he's not really 'news').


Have to say that it sounds a little like those birds that supposedly fly
in ever-decreasing circles. Until they disappear ...

Well, traditional media is on the Decline, so...

[pritch]

In other words, the general public has become so stupid that those who control and manipulate the mainstream media know they can easily get away with it.

You may be somewhat premature with that. The TV channels are definitely working on dumbing down content though so perhaps it's a work in progress.

[Katman]

And what political leanings do the Editors have?

Whatever those who control them tell them to have.


What Political leanings do those in control have?

Therein lies the million dollar question.

[onearmedbandit]

You're quite stupid aren't you ..

They've forced him to change the venue of the G7 for just that reason - what he was doing is illegal for a President .

I've just read a few articles from different sources regarding this and not one made mention of him being forced by law to change the venue. It was considered 'unethical' by people on both sides (even though the White House stated there would be no financial profit gained) mostly due to the free promotional opportunities from using the venue. Happy for you to provide a source that clearly states it was illegal, but like I said the first three I looked at none of them support your claim.

[husaberg]

I've just read a few articles from different sources regarding this and not one made mention of him being forced by law to change the venue. It was considered 'unethical' by people on both sides (even though the White House stated there would be no financial profit gained) mostly due to the free promotional opportunities from using the venue. Happy for you to provide a source that clearly states it was illegal, but like I said the first three I looked at none of them support your claim.


As determined in an analysis by the Centre for Responsive Politics, they’ve spent just under $28 million on use of Trump properties, most of which came after Trump already became president


Public Citizen, estimates that political candidates and party organisations alone have spent at least $8 million on Trump properties since January 2017, as compared to just $173,440 in the four years before his run for presidency.

The U.S. Constitution, known as the Emoluments Clause, a sitting U.S. president cannot accept any “present” from any foreign party, like, say, payment in the form of leaders booking out several hotel rooms or hosting a convention at Trump properties.
Also, the Emoluments Clause does not allow the American president to accept more or less than his salary, including from federal or state governments, which brings up serious issues like Pence’s stay in Ireland (paid for by U.S. tax-dollars, which were then funnelled directly into the pockets of the Trump Organisation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_of_Nobility_Clause


The word "emolument" has a broad meaning. At the time of the Founding, it meant "profit," "benefit," or "advantage" of any kind. Because of the "sweeping and unqualified" nature of the constitutional prohibition, and in light of the more sophisticated understanding of conflicts of interest that developed after the Richard Nixon presidency, most modern presidents have chosen to eliminate any risk of conflict of interest that may arise by choosing to vest their assets into a blind trust. As the Office of Legal Counsel has advised, the Constitution is violated when the holder of an "Office of Profit or Trust", like the President,receives money from a partnership or similar entity in which he has a stake, and the amount he receives is "a function of the amount paid to the [entity] by the foreign government." This is because such a setup would allow the entity to "in effect be a conduit for that government," and so the government official would be exposed to possible "undue influence and corruption by [the] foreign government." The Department of Defense has expressly held that "this same rationale applies to distributions from limited liability corporations

you also have https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/5/2635.702

§ 2635.702 Use of public office for private gain.
An employee shall not use his public office for his own private gain, for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise, or for the private gain of friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity, including nonprofit organizations of which the employee is an officer or member, and persons with whom the employee has or seeks employment or business relations. The specific prohibitions set forth in paragraphs (a) through (d) of this section apply this general standard, but are not intended to be exclusive or to limit the application of this section.

(a) Inducement or coercion of benefits. An employee shall not use or permit the use of his Government position or title or any authority associated with his public office in a manner that is intended to coerce or induce another person, including a subordinate, to provide any benefit, financial or otherwise, to himself or to friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity.

Example 1:
Offering to pursue a relative's consumer complaint over a household appliance, an employee of the Securities and Exchange Commission called the general counsel of the manufacturer and, in the course of discussing the problem, stated that he worked at the SEC and was responsible for reviewing the company's filings. The employee violated the prohibition against use of public office for private gain by invoking his official authority in an attempt to influence action to benefit his relative.
Example 2:
An employee of the Department of Commerce was asked by a friend to determine why his firm's export license had not yet been granted by another office within the Department of Commerce. At a department-level staff meeting, the employee raised as a matter for official inquiry the delay in approval of the particular license and asked that the particular license be expedited. The official used her public office in an attempt to benefit her friend and, in acting as her friend's agent for the purpose of pursuing the export license with the Department of Commerce, may also have violated 18 U.S.C. 205.

[Banditbandit]

The U.S. Constitution, known as the Emoluments Clause, a sitting U.S. president cannot accept any “present” from any foreign party, like, say, payment in the form of leaders booking out several hotel rooms or hosting a convention at Trump properties.
Also, the Emoluments Clause does not allow the American president to accept more or less than his salary, including from federal or state governments, which brings up serious issues like Pence’s stay in Ireland (paid for by U.S. tax-dollars, which were then funnelled directly into the pockets of the Trump Organisation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_of_Nobility_Clause

Yeah - the emoluments clause in the US constitution ..

The one that Trump calls 'phoney'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7596531/Donald-Trump-canceled-plan-hold-G7-Doral-impeachment-swing-vote-Republicans-objected.html

[austingtir]

^^

https://media1.tenor.com/images/228c71ff47d5a4a04e777168280f59ec/tenor.gif?itemid=15175788

[onearmedbandit]

The U.S. Constitution, known as the Emoluments Clause, a sitting U.S. president cannot accept any “present” from any foreign party, like, say, payment in the form of leaders booking out several hotel rooms or hosting a convention at Trump properties.
Also, the Emoluments Clause does not allow the American president to accept more or less than his salary, including from federal or state governments, which brings up serious issues like Pence’s stay in Ireland (paid for by U.S. tax-dollars, which were then funnelled directly into the pockets of the Trump Organisation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_of_Nobility_Clause

From a legal position he no longer has an interest in the family business. Correct? If so then it would appear that his actions were at worst 'improper'.


Lawyers who have served in both Republican and Democratic administrations objected to the selection of the Doral, including several who emphasized that even though Mr. Trump, as president, is exempt from a federal conflict-of-interest statute, his role in the matter was improper.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/19/us/politics/trump-doral-g7.html

[Banditbandit]

From a legal position he no longer has an interest in the family business. Correct? If so then it would appear that his actions were at worst 'improper'.




That's extremely debatable ..

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2019/03/18/president-donald-trumps-promises-didnt-end-business-entanglements/3030377002/

[husaberg]

From a legal position he no longer has an interest in the family business. Correct? If so then it would appear that his actions were at worst 'improper'.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/19/us/politics/trump-doral-g7.html

Yes he does, he also has nothing in a blind trust
Hes personally benefiting from it. They go beyond improper
hes boosted his daughters business
been granted patents dud to his position
his tweets about companies his decimating of Boeing all go beyond improper

[Laava]

http://nzh.tw/12279948
This just seems like the usual stories we get loads of everyday, nothing to get excited about etc but the headline of Trump moaning about how the democrats are doing everything they can to make him look bad made me chuckle. He's doing that all by himself, to give him some credit!

[Viking01]

All the recent US political bickering has overshadowed a few other little
matters bubbling away in the background.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/us-china-close-to-finalising-trade-deal-phase-one-12036552

While FT and CNBC make some mention, I can't find any corresponding
comment on any of the Chinese news websites I normally browse. Nor
on any of the main UK or European news websites either.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Nikkei-Markets/Asian-stocks-slip-amid-earnings-trade-uncertainty

Don, think I'll just wait until a document is published (and a formal signing
has been scheduled) before I start celebrating. If it's all the same with you.

[Laava]

Yep, first link, that is the usual bunch of,
"is hoping to"
"is moving closer to"
"is asking for"
"is expecting"
mixed up with a whole bunch of backdated news stories.
Nothing new in there at all.
Second link, meh, stock markets, this moved .2% that went.7%, who can we blame it on...bla bla

[Viking01]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/22/economists-globalization-trade-paul-krugman-china/

[austingtir]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/22/economists-globalization-trade-paul-krugman-china/

Further proof of how the world in changing and how NZ is going to be left behind.... AGAIN.


Globilization is and always has been bullshit it simply does not work how they thought it would work and when it didnt they looked to take even more advantage of that fact (the hardcore leftists) which is where we are at now which is basically a world wide clusterfuck of corporations influencing everyone and telling them what to do and how to do it mainly big tech.

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/74634400_10220728274659037_3582085132401508352_n-jpg.173529/

[Banditbandit]

https://scontent.fhlz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74666226_2750596751646518_1436073876499988480_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQnKxbm12zWsgmLIvAU3mluJaQNOg4X7mZ1p9aqRm3v tYWWWQvFGieZfyzIj0wzpWQw&_nc_ht=scontent.fhlz2-1.fna&oh=e0790caae2db328d782a77162d4b0abb&oe=5E1F3EAC

[austingtir]

Shit, I dont even have to post ridiculous CNN meme's anymore Laava is doing it for me. I knew you would come around one day boyo!!



And its pretty easy to debunk the bullshit meme by banditbandit above all you have to do is actually read all the articles and dates posted and its pretty clear hardly any of them or none claim 100% killed him its all either he was maimed or wounded. Zero verified actual kills.

+ There is a audio/video of baghdadi in 2018 rallying his troops.

[Laava]

https://scontent.fhlz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/74666226_2750596751646518_1436073876499988480_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQnKxbm12zWsgmLIvAU3mluJaQNOg4X7mZ1p9aqRm3v tYWWWQvFGieZfyzIj0wzpWQw&_nc_ht=scontent.fhlz2-1.fna&oh=e0790caae2db328d782a77162d4b0abb&oe=5E1F3EAC
Lols, ths'll get the Trump Infatuated Trolls, or T.I.Ts, going again!

[Banditbandit]

And its pretty easy to debunk the bullshit meme by banditbandit above all you have to do is actually read all the articles and dates posted and its pretty clear hardly any of them or none claim 100% killed him its all either he was maimed or wounded. Zero verified actual kills.

+ There is a audio/video of baghdadi in 2018 rallying his troops.


Hahaha ... you seem to agree with the meme then? Zero (and I repeat) Zero verified kills . ... that's right !!


https://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/no-i-checked-my-receipt-i-didnt-buy-any-of-your-bullshit-a092c.png

[austingtir]

Hahaha ... you seem to agree with the meme then? Zero (and I repeat) Zero verified kills . ... that's right !!


https://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/no-i-checked-my-receipt-i-didnt-buy-any-of-your-bullshit-a092c.png


Because its all fake news.

Except for when Trump killed him of course.

[pete376403]

If Trump "killed al-bagdadi" then you have to admit that Obama "killed Bin Laden"

[austingtir]

If Trump "killed al-bagdadi" then you have to admit that Obama "killed Bin Laden"

It doesnt make any difference to me if either of them did or didnt.

Im just saying Trump Killed Al Bagdadi. You lot can say Obama killed Osama. Dont make no difference to me cause its all a sideshow.

[sugilite]

It doesnt make any difference to me if either of them did or didnt.

Im just saying Trump Killed Al Bagdadi. You lot can say Obama killed Osama. Dont make no difference to me cause its all a sideshow.

Are you saying Trump took time out from one of his many golf games, flew over to Syria and set the dogs on to Bagdadi himself? :rolleyes:
Special forces were responsible for Bagdadi's death and Osamas too. The presidents did not actually kill them.
Just trying to keep it simple for you Austin.

[austingtir]

Are you saying Trump took time out from one of his many golf games, flew over to Syria and set the dogs on to Bagdadi himself? :rolleyes:
Special forces were responsible for Bagdadi's death and Osamas too. The presidents did not actually kill them.
Just trying to keep it simple for you Austin.


No im saying he did it on his ps4 with a secure link to syria.:bash:

https://i.imgur.com/ZY92Nme.jpg

[austingtir]

Ok I admit you guys must of been right all along. Afterall we all know what happens to anyone that has dirt on Hillary Clinton.... Attack dogs and improvised explosives... hillaries getting creative now!! So Trump cant of killed him!!!:shifty:

https://i.imgur.com/gIFwlXz.png

[Laava]

Are you saying Trump took time out from one of his many golf games, flew over to Syria and set the dogs on to Bagdadi himself? :rolleyes:
Special forces were responsible for Bagdadi's death and Osamas too. The presidents did not actually kill them.
Just trying to keep it simple for you Austin.
Think you'll need to dumb it down a bit. A lot...

[austingtir]

Think you'll need to dumb it down a bit. A lot...


Those snackbars at the start there got WRECKED!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=I0F3zwsFdvc



CNN, Washington post etc are working overtime right now to spin this just watch.

[Laava]

https://twitter.com/RobertDeNiroUS/status/1190138546486697984

[nerrrd]

Well I’m convinced.


https://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g

[austingtir]

https://twitter.com/RobertDeNiroUS/status/1190138546486697984


I think its sad that a guy that WAS a great actor is going to be remembered for just being a deranged halfwit from here on out.

Have a look through his tweets. Dude's off his rocker.

[Laava]

https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/attachments/chumpster-jpg.174189/

[Banditbandit]

Those snackbars at the start there got WRECKED!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=I0F3zwsFdvc



CNN, Washington post etc are working overtime right now to spin this just watch.


That group at the beginning look more like US troops with packs and rifles moving toward the compound - then releasing a dog, which runs to the right.

IS, being staunch Muslims, would not have a dog with them ..

[austingtir]

That group at the beginning look more like US troops with packs and rifles moving toward the compound - then releasing a dog, which runs to the right.

IS, being staunch Muslims, would not have a dog with them ..


It just looks like a dog cause the guy obviously see's he's about to get fucked up and starts running around. LMFAO at thinking the US would release footage of thier own troops getting messed up.

[Banditbandit]

It just looks like a dog cause the guy obviously see's he's about to get fucked up and starts running around. LMFAO at thinking the US would release footage of thier own troops getting messed up.

I didn't make that as a strong suggestion .. just an observation ..

This White House has done stupider things ...

Like tell the Russians the name of the Whistleblower - so the Russian media can name them ..

https://www.salon.com/2019/11/06/russian-media-names-purported-ukraine-whistleblower-after-cue-from-rand-paul/

[austingtir]

I didn't make that as a strong suggestion .. just an observation ..

This White House has done stupider things ...

Like tell the Russians the name of the Whistleblower - so the Russian media can name them ..

https://www.salon.com/2019/11/06/russian-media-names-purported-ukraine-whistleblower-after-cue-from-rand-paul/


Russians, russians everywhere!!! Get a life you TDS brainwashed fool!!

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/whistleblowers-attorney-vowed-get-rid-trump-2017


What it got to do with the bloody russians? People knew who the whistleblower was months ago.


And the guy is clearly not a whistleblower at all just another TDS lunatic like all the rest and you.

[Banditbandit]

Russians, russians everywhere!!! Get a life you TDS brainwashed fool!!

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/whistleblowers-attorney-vowed-get-rid-trump-2017


What it got to do with the bloody russians? People knew who the whistleblower was months ago.


And the guy is clearly not a whistleblower at all just another TDS lunatic like all the rest and you.

Here - take this tissue - wipe the froth from round your mouth ..

https://pics.drugstore.com/prodimg/613912/900.jpg

[austingtir]

I think you're the one that needs the tissues:

https://i.imgur.com/EJUMQRJ.jpg

[sugilite]

^^ A true patriot - God bless the USA!

[austingtir]

^^ A true patriot - God bless the USA!

Lets see how much of a "patriot" he is when he as to testify under subpoena in front of the public.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/11/07/jim-jordan-republicans-will-subpoena-whistleblower-for-public-testimony/

[Katman]

Isn't it funny how the Democrats will adhere to the Whistleblower Protection Act when it suits them.

[jasonu]

Isn't it funny how the Democrats will adhere to the Whistleblower Protection Act when it suits them.

Not funny just standard practice for those dimwits.

[sugilite]

Not funny just standard practice for those dimwits.

Both sides as bad as each other. NZ mob no better really.