Killers?

[Colapop]

Quoted from Stuff 17/10/05
"In July, a car containing six teenage boys crashed into a tree in Hastings at 130km/h. Four of the teenagers were killed.
One of the survivors, Ricky Moulder, 18, is to appear in court today facing a charge of unnecessary exhibition of speed. His new car, a $12,000 Nissan Silvia, was impounded for 28 days after he was pulled over by police."

I suppose this is a question to older riders with kids but all perspectives are appreciated. I'd like to know how we (as a society?) can stop this sort of thing from happening? Legislate the crap out of everyone until no-one can do anything? Or just wait until these kids kill themselves and others? (Or worse not kill them. See Biff's post - Drink drivers) The thing is sure these kids grow up (by some fluke) and get mature but the attitude still remains "In my car, I am the boss" and frequently it's bikers that have to put up with the shit from there...
I was just thinking 'bout it....

[skelstar]

Firstly Im not a parent. I think that (horribly) it would be a case of relying on a good upbringing from parents that are equiped with the right skills to teach their ...children...well (I feel a folk song coming on). Rules will just to increase the revenue collecting and arguably wouldnt make much difference to their behaviour. I think its not a positive measure and only encourages a distaste for the 'Man'.

[Indoo]

Couple of more articles about this tool and his retard of a Father....

http://hbtoday.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3656221&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10350477

My favourite part...

"Friends of Moulder's told the Herald on Sunday last week they were angry at the attitude of police, who did not give them an easier time when they were pulled over, despite having lost a number of friends in a string of recent fatal accidents. "

You friends die because they are idiots, you continue to drive like an idiot defying Darwin despite the fact that you have just seen the carnage it causes and you expect Police to go easy on you?

[Ixion]

What gets me is where they get the money from $12K ? At 18 ? I wish I had that sort of money nowdays let alone at 18. At 18 I was struggling to find $10.

[**R1**]

man there is 4 million people in NZ, I dont think loosing 3 or 4 hundred each year on the road is going to have much of an impact on our growth, I have kids and would for sure be devistated if anything happened to them, but when it happens to others ...I have to be honest and say I dont really care, I mean come on surely the roads are not NZ's biggest killer? if they are then we have a shit load to be thankfull for!!.......and if you are all so worried about being killed by a cager, go live ya life behind a large rock and leave the fun living to the rest of us.


(sits back and awaits self righteous pricks to force their opinion on me)

[Dadpole]

What gets me is where they get the money from $12K ? At 18 ? I wish I had that sort of money nowdays let alone at 18. At 18 I was struggling to find $10.

Wouldn't that would have bought two horses and a wagon then? :innocent:

[Colapop]

$12k at 18 - easy. I had 2 milk rounds one morning one night and kept my paper round all through college and worked mowing lawns. I should have bought a brain instead I bought GSX750 (coz I could) at 17 (yes this was a while ago - mid eighties) and smashed it and myself - without insurance. I was very lucky, now I'm a parent of 2 kids (14 & 11). It's hard to blame my parents - there wasn't alot they could tell me to do or not to do. Yep I learned a very valuable lesson (it took 6 years of saving) and I lost the lot. I think the graduated bike lisence is a good start but expand it to include cars ie. learner drivers only allowed to drive up to 1300cc cars (unmodified)

[MSTRS]

What gets me is where they get the money from .....
The parents. You have to ask yourself "Which one is worse? The teenager with the armorplate attitude? Or the parent(s) that seem to encourage it?"

[The Stranger]

Can you stop it?
Should you stop it?
As I see it kids rebelling, challenging the ideas and beliefs of their elders normal and healthy.
I believe that that is what enables society to evolve.

We should embrace it and encourage it. Why not build safe places for them to hang out, to race when they want, to do burn outs when they want to.
Help them to build fast cars - so it is done safely and properly.
Because you are not going to stop it with regulation or force so you may as well work with them than against them.

[**R1**]

$12k at 18 - easy. I had 2 milk rounds one morning one night and kept my paper round all through college and worked mowing lawns. I should have bought a brain instead I bought GSX750 (coz I could) at 17 (yes this was a while ago - mid eighties) and smashed it and myself - without insurance. I was very lucky, now I'm a parent of 2 kids (14 & 11). It's hard to blame my parents - there wasn't alot they could tell me to do or not to do. Yep I learned a very valuable lesson (it took 6 years of saving) and I lost the lot. I think the graduated bike lisence is a good start but expand it to include cars ie. learner drivers only allowed to drive up to 1300cc cars (unmodified)Na I couldnt see the graduated licence thing working, I had a gsxr750 when I was on my learners..

[MSTRS]

Couple of more articles about this tool and his retard of a Father....

http://hbtoday.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3656221&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10350477

My favourite part...

"Friends of Moulder's told the Herald on Sunday last week they were angry at the attitude of police, who did not give them an easier time when they were pulled over, despite having lost a number of friends in a string of recent fatal accidents. "

You friends die because they are idiots, you continue to drive like an idiot defying Darwin despite the fact that you have just seen the carnage it causes and you expect Police to go easy on you?
I read this on Saturday & just could not believe my eyes.This kid will die in a car before he learns anything. I just hope he doesn't take out an innocent third party. I'm glad he got sprung tho, but it appears as though he was enjoying a bit of cop-baiting as in "what you gunna do to stop me?".
Our residential street resembles a burnout pad, but do you think we can get a cop to come whilst these little hoons are at it? Not on your Nelly. When we get on the phone, the cops are more interested in finding out what we had for breakfast. Chances of being caught are slim for these young gits.

[TerminalAddict]

sarcasm !!!!
I have 2 girls, who are just starting to rebel.
I say things like - "go on then .. do your best .. do things I never liked doing .. like readin books, and studying ... that'll piss me off" .. they are old enough to get the idea.

When it comes to driving/riding/going fast/hand brake turns/etc etc .. I take them on a controlled environment, and teach them how to do it properly.

I have an eight year old daughter that has driven my car (although her legs are short so I had to operate the pedals) :)
I have no idea how to do it properly (parenting) .. I just make it up as I go along, just like every other parent

[Colapop]

I just make it up as I go along, just like every other parent
:gasp!!: You're not following "The Book"???? - How to be a Great Parent and Role Model
Some things your own parents just don't tell you and the things they do tell you are just not relevant (years of therapy have fixed 1/2 of that tho')

[manuboy]

I dunno. There is no simple soution.

Hell, i don't even think there's a solution. In fact, i think there's only really a problem when innocents get caught up in it. And if you're sitting in the back seat yelling "Hey bro! slow down!", that don't make you innocent.

Kids r kids. Always have been. But now they have access to "fast" cars fairly easily. They seemingly live forever in their own minds. They die, they cry about the unfairness of it all and then the next one lines up in the TurboChargedFuckOffMachine.

I think strong parently might slightly reduce the toll, but maybe not. And strong parenting is something you can't teach (or legislate).

Last weekend i caught two little c**nts in our local park on some shit beast little two stroker, pulling donuts beside the playground. I lost it bigtime. Jogged over, told them to get some brains and after about 2 seconds of one of them staring me down i kicked his ass real good like my old man would have done to me.

Nope i didn't feel proud at all. This guy was probably only 15-17. It wasn't the actions they took in the first place, it was the reaction - like "fuck off man, we're just having fun". Nope - fuck off kid, you are putting kids and dogs in real danger. I notice they haven't been back (to my surprise). But it's the same attitude on the road i think - "fuck off, we're just having fun".

If they ain't gonna learn watching their peers disappear they don't deserve any sympathy. And giving them somewhere to go play has been tried. I think it reduced the cool factor and hence it didn't work.

Having fun is one thing, having uneducated drivers in high powered vehicles that often handle worse than stock is what we are seeing.

[The Stranger]

And giving them somewhere to go play has been tried. I think it reduced the cool factor and hence it didn't work.

When and where has this been tried.
I can't recall any serious attempt.

[MSTRS]

When and where has this been tried.
I can't recall any serious attempt.
Can't quote anywhere for certain, but you can be sure that these kids would stay away in droves, It is a case of "I'll do it where & when I like. I am not going to be controlled"

[marty]

centre of the manukau velodrome, purpose built pads in otahuhu, meremere, drifting @ pukekohe. problem is most of them can't drive for shit (like RWD imprezza crash dude) and the track has too much pressure for them. they still behave like bullet proof dicks everywhere else though.

i paid a visit to a young guy from up the road who was ripping up the local rugby grounds. when i asked him if he'd like me to get the senior 15 to come and discuss his actions with him, he politely apologised, and promised he would replace all the divots, and that he wouldn't be back.

he did, and he hasn't.

[marty]

and aaron, i just can't agree with your sentiment, although i do understand where you're coming from. i've seen it (a lot) 1st hand, and although some of the deaths are just proving darwins thoery, many of them are a complete waste of a good life (especially when it's innocent bystanders/drivers) and the effect on a family is long lasting, and significant.

[Marmoot]

Can you stop it?
Should you stop it?
As I see it kids rebelling, challenging the ideas and beliefs of their elders normal and healthy.
I believe that that is what enables society to evolve.

We should embrace it and encourage it. Why not build safe places for them to hang out, to race when they want, to do burn outs when they want to.
Help them to build fast cars - so it is done safely and properly.
Because you are not going to stop it with regulation or force so you may as well work with them than against them.

I agree wholeheartedly. But unfortunately manuboy was right. It has been tried and only worked to some extent.
Some of them likes the thrill of being in public place, and will not go to the proper avenue.

A bit like us really. Some of us prefers to go for a blat in public road instead of racetrack. (Don't blame me. I'm not raising opinion, just simply stating the facts).
(thank God) the difference is that we relatively have more experience and more mature than them before doing so, and it's not for the cool factor either. Hence we are more controlled than these teenagers.

But again, the question is: should we stop it? More importantly, how do we stop it without becoming a police-state?

I'd say it comes from family education and teaching understandings

[Ixion]

.. we relatively have more experience and more mature than them before doing so, and it's not for the cool factor either. Hence we are more controlled than these teenagers.

..

Oh goody. Are we? I must draw this to Mrs Ixion's attention.

[**R1**]

and aaron, i just can't agree with your sentiment, although i do understand where you're coming from. i've seen it (a lot) 1st hand, and although some of the deaths are just proving darwins thoery, many of them are a complete waste of a good life (especially when it's innocent bystanders/drivers) and the effect on a family is long lasting, and significant.so duz eartquakes and huricanes, but ya cant do fukal about that either..I was just being honest, I used to think I felt sorry for them and then realized I dont really...for some reason people seem to think the world is becoming a horrible place, I just believe the Press/medeia are getting better at reporting it..you will never hear about the hundreds that die of bee stings and allergy's coz that would be booring news..and no one would care.

[yungatart]

This young fella was told by his specialists that due to injuries suffered in the accident he shouldn't drive for 12 months-due to the likelihood he would experience blackouts. As a parent, if my kid was told that, they would NOT be driving and putting others at risk. The parents who provided the wherewithal to get him a car should be shot. Talk about irresponsible!
I have a 14 y/o- he's not allowed on the road so races buckets at the track-learns the skills in a controlled environment with the support of parents and others, hopefully it will stop him using the road as a racetrack when he gets his licence.

[yungatart]

But again, the question is: should we stop it? More importantly, how do we stop it without becoming a police-state?

I'd say it comes from family education and teaching understandings
Read the thread on teenage road deaths started just after this accident-sorry don't know how to post the link

[marty]

absolutely. some would say that 'you know the risk - if you don't want to die in a car crash, stay off the road'. sometimes though, it's a waste. every 23 seconds somewhere in the world one person dies in a car crash (in yr 2000 1.26 million deaths due to vehicle crashes - from WHO).

in NZ it's about 1 every 17 hours.

[Colapop]

....I just believe the Press/medeia are getting better at reporting it..
The media getting better?? Don't you mean more sensationalist? You only need to look at the number of "Wildest Police Chases" (or similar) shows on TV to see just how sensational news reporting is getting. I think as kids have spent more time in front of TV as youngsters then (finally) gone outside they've been desensitised to reality and their perceptions of their infallibility (bulletproofedness ??) are way out of wack. A case of life imitating TV?

[Marmoot]

Oh goody. Are we? I must draw this to Mrs Ixion's attention.

Yes we are!
My experience alone would offset those with not enough experience :whistle:
but you didn't hear this from me, ok?

[Lou Girardin]

The kids father is defending him publicly. The best thing that could happen for society is that both die together in a crash before the little mongrel kills an innocent victim.

[Colapop]

I haven't seen much of the father but I know I would defend my kid at all costs - The thing is I wouldn't give my kid a $12k car to kill himself (and/or others) in the first place. I think Terninal's got the right idea...


.. I take them on a controlled environment, and teach them how to do it properly.
I have an eight year old daughter that has driven my car (although her legs are short so I had to operate the pedals) :)

Teach them right, from the start. Unfortunately if the parents shouldn't have been allowed to breed in the first place.. :brick:

[oldrider]

"Freedom" -"Responsibility"-"Outcome"-"Accountability"-"Consequences"

Individual freedom or State Control?

There is always consequence

More bad individual behaviour, more State control, less individual Freedom.

Our young people mimic us and the State takes advantage of our behaviour.

Good bye free world.

John. :violin:

[Lou Girardin]

I haven't seen much of the father but I know I would defend my kid at all costs - :brick:

This is the problem, these people are too busy being 'mates' with their kids and not being parents.
When the little shit is being a clueless ratbag, his parents have a duty to tell him he's a clueless ratbag.
Or would that damage the little darlings self-esteem?

[froggyfrenchman]

Right. I live in hastings and have my lil brother living with me. He is good friends with that whole crowd and has lost 12 mates on the rroad this year. He was in the car behing the famous tree car. Being 1st on the scene he saw his friends all bleeding and dead, as did 50 or so other kids (arnt cell phones great? instant crowds!) For the 1st few days after any of these kids kill themselves, i have tons of these boys round here all sad and crying. THEN they all get in their cars and race back and forth past the crash scenes as a sign of respect, Following they all get on the piss on the side of the road somewhere (all being under 18) before drink driving to the next locations.
The thing that gets me is they all complain bout it being bad luck their mates are gone, and moan that the local police wont leave them alone. Whats wrong with these boys? How do you get the message through to them when watching their good friends die wasnt enough? If you have any ideas please pm them to me, coz theres a few of them i would like to see live for a nother year or so. As for the rest of them, i feel there is no hope. The lad spoken of in the begining of this thread was brought that $12,000 by his dad as a present apon getting outa hospital. So i do put alot of blame on the parents for this epidemic too, most of them have no idea where their kids are on a friday or saturday night. Now thats parenting!

[froggyfrenchman]

There is a track in hastings where they can race their cars for $1 a lap. Problem is its 1 car at a time and the track is far too small to get any speed at all. The hastings district council isnt even considering making it any bigger because its never used. Catch 22. The only real answer to this local problem of suisidal boy racers is for each kid and parent to work on it, prob is the kids want fast cars and the parents couldent give a shit whats happening.

Sorry ill stop ranting now, its just this subject is VERY close to me.

[InDeSkyz]

Get the bastards all go karts.
and
Don't be a gaurantor (sp) for a damn 12k car.

[froggyfrenchman]

A local doctor is now funding driving experiance in go karts at track for 3rd and forth formers to try and drum some knoledge in before they hit the road

[Colapop]

I didn't start this thread to blame anybody. My problem is the young people that are getting killed and killing others. Suicide and cars account for too many of our kids. Whether it's the parents, the media, or the government something needs to be done. The first step in getting action is to do something, to say something. I'm not trying to save the world, but if I can help one kid, maybe I'll have done something right in my life. I mentioned ealier in this thread a little about trashing my bike and myself 20 years ago. I didn't tell you about my brother (not real but as I consider him) stopping on the front of a truck on his bike 3 days after his 21st birthday. What can do you do to help? You help one at a time and hope that it's enough I suppose.

[Colapop]

This is the problem, these people are too busy being 'mates' with their kids and not being parents.
When the little shit is being a clueless ratbag, his parents have a duty to tell him he's a clueless ratbag.
Or would that damage the little darlings self-esteem?
I agree. As much as I would defend my kid, I would also be the first to kick his arse and tell him why.

[Marmoot]

I agree. As much as I would defend my kid, I would also be the first to kick his arse and tell him why.

ditto
it's called 'tough love'

[Colapop]

ditto
it's called 'tough love'
Isn't it just called 'love'?

[Marmoot]

Isn't it just called 'love'?

no. It's called 'tough love'.....believe me....please?

[notsoplainjane]

I was under the impression that if you have any kind of head injury or surgery you are NOT to drive for at least 6 months? Two people I've known have had brain surgery and have been informed that they are not to drive for a year each....
Or is this just a recommendation?

[spudchucka]

If there are medical reasons that a person shouldn't drive their licence is normally revoked until they are given medical clearance to resume driving.

[Lou Girardin]

Right. I live in hastings and have my lil brother living with me. He is good friends with that whole crowd and has lost 12 mates on the rroad this year. He was in the car behing the famous tree car. Being 1st on the scene he saw his friends all bleeding and dead, as did 50 or so other kids (arnt cell phones great? instant crowds!) For the 1st few days after any of these kids kill themselves, i have tons of these boys round here all sad and crying. THEN they all get in their cars and race back and forth past the crash scenes as a sign of respect, Following they all get on the piss on the side of the road somewhere (all being under 18) before drink driving to the next locations.
The thing that gets me is they all complain bout it being bad luck their mates are gone, and moan that the local police wont leave them alone. Whats wrong with these boys? How do you get the message through to them when watching their good friends die wasnt enough? If you have any ideas please pm them to me, coz theres a few of them i would like to see live for a nother year or so. As for the rest of them, i feel there is no hope. The lad spoken of in the begining of this thread was brought that $12,000 by his dad as a present apon getting outa hospital. So i do put alot of blame on the parents for this epidemic too, most of them have no idea where their kids are on a friday or saturday night. Now thats parenting!


Treat 'em like a computer - punch the info in.

[Motu]

no. It's called 'tough love'.....believe me....please?

''Tough Love'' is a patch for the love that was missing in the first place,there should be no reason to get ''tough'' with your kids.

When I was on Waiheke Island a dirt track was started for just this reason - all the young guys got into making beat up old cars for the dirt track,it was just a crappy track and the rules basic,but with time got more refined.Everyone was into it,everyone was making a car,winters were for next seasons car.I helped a few guys,we even used to get them in our workshop for work.The hoons had an interest,developed knowledge and mechanical skills....and a big ups in their driving skills too.

I did the same on the bike front - got the guys who blasted around everywhere on their dirtbikes out on the track,made an agreament with the farmers that we would use their land for enduros I organised,and stay off other times (lots of reckies of course) but the point was we were doing something with the young guys input.

Too ''dumb'' for the yoof of today???

[Wolf]

Wouldn't that would have bought two horses and a wagon then? :innocent:
It would have - if the wheel had been invented back then - and I think at that stage only the dog had been domesticated. I think it would've got him a couple of pretty cool flint knives, though.

[Ixion]

It would have - if the wheel had been invented back then - and I think at that stage only the dog had been domesticated. I think it would've got him a couple of pretty cool flint knives, though.

Yeah - bloody slow our bikes were back then - only a couple of dog power, and it didn't go far when we had to skid them along without wheels. Played hell with the forks, everybody had bent forks. When I learned to ride like that, it's no wonder i'm such a nana.

[Indiana_Jones]

Give 'em an inch and they take foot!
Give them a good thrashin' :D

You can lecture some for hours, I won't do jack, They'll still think They're Steve McQueen :p

-Indy

[froggyfrenchman]

Thats the problem exactly indy. There has been no end of talks to them, theyve lost lots of mates in a short period of time and in some instances seen their friends die with thier own two eyes. Yet still they thing theyre 10' tall and all the rest.

[strayjuliet]

I wouldn't be very happy if I was out driving and got hit by a loony kid who can't drive for peanuts. I would want some kind of justice done too if that said kid killed either my kids or my husband or 1 of my kids and my husband or just my kids.

My kids have seen a car crash and they know, even at their young ages that it is wrong and (using their words) naughty to drive like an idiot and put others lives at risk.