Moeraki crash

[JimO]

i came across this not long after it happened, a campervan turned across the road in front of the motorcycle, he had nowhere to go, from what i saw the other car was stopped at the intersection.Lots of bikes on the road heading to the burt no excuse for not seeing the bike
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/north-otago/woman-charged-over-fatal-moeraki-crash

[testastretta]

The tourist driver pled guilty to careless driving causing death. She wants a discharge without conviction as she is concerned about her career.
Safe to say the victims career is fucked.

[Jeeper]

Agree, diversion or discharge without conviction should not be so readily available particularly when an accident involves a fatality.

[FJRider]

Applications for discharge without conviction are common. Getting one is not.


Let's wait for the Judges decision ...

[MD]

This is why my annual riding group for the last 16 years around the South Island decided after this December's ride - we've had enough of the scary traffic, endless lines of tourists in campervans, mini vans full of cheap arsed freedom campers, all who have no ideal how to drive. They stop in the most stupid places to take selfies, pull out from anywhere anytime they please, swerve anywhere, make blind U-turns with total ignorance of their surroundings i.e. it's a road dipshit and roads have vehicles moving on them at speed.

[SaferRides]

Well, I must have been exceptionally lucky this summer. We usually stay in Auckland over Christmas and New Year, but due to some unusual circumstances I drove or rode a total of about 2500 km in Northland, Bay of Plenty and Otago / Southland.

I was very impressed by the driving which was much better than I've previously encountered during holiday periods.

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[JimO]

Well, I must have been exceptionally lucky this summer. We usually stay in Auckland over Christmas and New Year, but due to some unusual circumstances I drove or rode a total of about 2500 km in Northland, Bay of Plenty and Otago / Southland.

I was very impressed by the driving which was much better than I've previously encountered during holiday periods.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
tourist driving around the holiday hotspots is pretty abysmal, (yes i know some locals are bad as well) but generally you wont get locals toodling along at 70 ks weaving about the road with 30 cars stacked up behind them and nowhere to pass, from what i have seen the cops are quite happy with that but if you go 4 ks over look out

[SaferRides]

Don't get me started on the 4k tolerance. Seems it's been applied to the fixed cameras and most people I know have come back from their holidays to at least one ticket for up to 10 km/h over.

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[Berries]

tourist driving around the holiday hotspots is pretty abysmal, (yes i know some locals are bad as well) but generally you wont get locals toodling along at 70 ks weaving about the road with 30 cars stacked up behind them and nowhere to pass,
I used to love the trip to Queenstown from Dunedin. Still do on the bike because traffic queues = more overtaking = more fun. Unfortunately I have to go over there in a work truck occasionally and it is terrible. The only upside of this virus is the roads around there will be better with less Chinese on them.

[MaxPenguin]

Well, I must have been exceptionally lucky this summer. We usually stay in Auckland over Christmas and New Year, but due to some unusual circumstances I drove or rode a total of about 2500 km in Northland, Bay of Plenty and Otago / Southland.

I was very impressed by the driving which was much better than I've previously encountered during holiday periods.

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I just got back from a 4000k south island trip, and the traffic was fine. Obviously would have been worse in a car with less passing opportunties, but, hey the South Island is a tourist route afterall.
I did get caught up in the moeraki snarl up and for some reason just knew that was a motorcycle crash so didn't filter to the front like some did.

[Moi]

The tourist driver pleaded guilty to careless driving causing death. She wants a discharge without conviction as she is concerned about her career.
Safe to say the victims career is fucked.

I wonder what the penalty for "careless driving causing death" is in Austria, her home country?

[Oakie]

Applications for discharge without conviction are common. Getting one is not.


Let's wait for the Judges decision ...


Interesting read https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/85228801/discharges-without-conviction-is-the-laws-safety-valve-blowing-out

[FJRider]

Interesting read https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/85228801/discharges-without-conviction-is-the-laws-safety-valve-blowing-out

Party violence and assault charges are lot less serious than killing anybody on the road.

[MaxPenguin]

What would putting her in jail for a month achieve?

[Berries]

Works both ways doesn't it. I imagine a New Zealand driver who did the same in Austria would find that their appointed Austrian defence lawyer would do their absolute best to get them the lightest sentence possible.

No sentence will bring the rider back, no sentence will penalise the driver any more than it already has and crucially no sentence will act as a deterrent to stop someone else doing exactly the same thing somewhere else next week. Sad as it seems this is the price we pay for whoring the country as a tourist destination but then having few transport choices for getting around.

I thought this was an interesting read, there must be hundreds of New Zealanders who have found themselves having close calls when driving overseas - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/i-almost-killed-someone

[Old Steve]

What would putting her in jail for a month achieve?

Well, it might get out to visiting motorists that if you eff up then you're behind bars and your career is stuffed. They might then drive a little more carefully.

[MaxPenguin]

Well, it might get out to visiting motorists that if you eff up then you're behind bars and your career is stuffed. They might then drive a little more carefully.

It might, but I doubt it.

[OddDuck]

Works both ways doesn't it. I imagine a New Zealand driver who did the same in Austria would find that their appointed Austrian defence lawyer would do their absolute best to get them the lightest sentence possible.

No sentence will bring the rider back, no sentence will penalise the driver any more than it already has and crucially no sentence will act as a deterrent to stop someone else doing exactly the same thing somewhere else next week. Sad as it seems this is the price we pay for whoring the country as a tourist destination but then having few transport choices for getting around.

I thought this was an interesting read, there must be hundreds of New Zealanders who have found themselves having close calls when driving overseas - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/i-almost-killed-someone

A close call like that has happened to a workmate (no crash thankfully). He reverted to the familiar side of the road... when entering a cloverleaf ramp leading to a freeway... in the USA. The local PD thankfully pulled him over before he got anywhere near the fast bit, but then he got out of the car and walked toward them!! Would have been normal and OK in NZ... not so much in the USA... he's fine but it got a bit tense for a second there.

[dangerous]

This is why my annual riding group for the last 16 years around the South Island decided after this December's ride - we've had enough of the scary traffic, endless lines of tourists in campervans, mini vans full of cheap arsed freedom campers, all who have no ideal how to drive. They stop in the most stupid places to take selfies, pull out from anywhere anytime they please, swerve anywhere, make blind U-turns with total ignorance of their surroundings i.e. it's a road dipshit and roads have vehicles moving on them at speed.

Ya know what... I can relate, thought it was cos I am getting old blind and stupid.... NA...

went for the 1st ride in months saturday up to aurthers and back, for those that know the road where it is on the edge of the Mak where the railway bridge is east of Bealey... headed east behind a car when an on comming campervan pulled across from the other lane infront of us to park up for a view... the car slamed on the brakes it was close, BUT WAIT theres more... the campervan behind the camper van followed the other one, fuck I let them have a big old dose of ranga anga... meh they didnt cear...

[rastuscat]

What would putting her in jail for a month achieve?

Revenge, and sense of satisfaction. That's all.

Penalties are punitive. They might make us feel better, but they don't actually achieve anything.

Originally, penalties were supposed to act as a deterrent, but given that nobody intends to commit such an offence, the penalty means not much.

On the other hand.................

If a cop sees someone make a bad decision and nearly hit someone, we want them to penalize the offender. Why then wouldn't we penalize someone who actually hits someone?

Penalties are a multi faceted conundrum.

[Jeeper]

Conundrum it is. A lot of locals want overseas visitors to be tested before being allowed on the road 'cause Kiwi roads are unique. Has any of those locals gone overseas and started driving without sitting a local test? Imagine why that's okay, its not because Kiwi drivers are so universally skilled. I capture enough on my dashcam to start a channel.

I have lived in many countries, and each one has its unique driving challenges. Imagine driving in any Asian large city, rush hour traffic and highways have a different meaning.

As for the tourist causing death, that is a special category for me. And it should be suitably punished.

[testastretta]

Revenge, and sense of satisfaction. That's all.

Penalties are punitive. They might make us feel better, but they don't actually achieve anything.

Originally, penalties were supposed to act as a deterrent, but given that nobody intends to commit such an offence, the penalty means not much.

On the other hand.................

If a cop sees someone make a bad decision and nearly hit someone, we want them to penalize the offender. Why then wouldn't we penalize someone who actually hits someone?

Penalties are a multi faceted conundrum.

Are you referring to speeding tickets?

[rastuscat]

Are you referring to speeding tickets?

For speeding tickets, it actually works as a deterrent. Especially the demerit points. I don't want the fine or demerits, so I change my behaviour in order to avoid them.

The other option I had was to not chance my behaviour, and constantly get tickets and whinge about them on KB.

[pritch]

For speeding tickets, it actually works as a deterrent. Especially the demerit points. I don't want the fine or demerits, so I change my behaviour in order to avoid them.

The other option I had was to not chance my behaviour, and constantly get tickets and whinge about them on KB.

I changed my behaviour, I bought a radar detector. For the last twelve years or so that has worked much betterer than whinging on KB.

[MaxPenguin]

Revenge, and sense of satisfaction. That's all.

Penalties are punitive. They might make us feel better, but they don't actually achieve anything.

Originally, penalties were supposed to act as a deterrent, but given that nobody intends to commit such an offence, the penalty means not much.

On the other hand.................

If a cop sees someone make a bad decision and nearly hit someone, we want them to penalize the offender. Why then wouldn't we penalize someone who actually hits someone?

Penalties are a multi faceted conundrum.

You would also think that the amount of rider at fault fatalities would be a deterrent too, but if they aren't then heavy fines or jail time won't be either.

[rastuscat]

You would also think that the amount of rider at fault fatalities would be a deterrent too, but if they aren't then heavy fines or jail time won't be either.

Another one today. As a collective, we are slow learners.

[dangerous]

We are not the Borg. Until you know the details of the incident try and feframe from posting stupid comments. yeahhhh oh come on toung n cheek etc, Ras has seen way more ugley shit than you and me would ever understand.



You would also think that the amount of rider at fault fatalities would be a deterrent too, but if they aren't then heavy fines or jail time won't be either.

thats a tricky thing to get into... where does the blame start...


They stop in the most stupid places to take selfiesYIP.. mate killed on return from the Brass last year from this very thing...


Well, I must have been exceptionally lucky this summer. We usually stay in Auckland over Christmas and New Year, but due to some unusual circumstances I drove or rode a total of about 2500 km in Northland, Bay of Plenty and Otago / Southland.

I was very impressed by the driving which was much better than I've previously encountered during holiday periods.

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that may be the case... but it only takes ONE fuckwit at the right time to fuck shit right up for you...

[Bonez]

yeahhhh oh come on toung n cheek etc, Ras has seen way more ugley shit than you and me would ever understand.Tying the incident as a result the "collectives" inadequacies is bull shit. It comes down to individual personal responsibility.

[dangerous]

Tying the incident as a result the "collectives" inadequacies is bull shit. It comes down to individual personal responsibility.

yeah sorry... im not quite sure what is meant by "collectives"

[Bonez]

Another one today. As a collective, we are slow learners.For those slow omes that missed it.

[Berries]

True though. I have never been killed yet but my wife gives me grief every time another member of the collective gets wiped out.

[SaferRides]

It's the classic "won't happen to me" attitude. That can be partly a survival mechanism given the dangers of riding, but I expect many riders believe that their superior abilities will somehow keep them safe.

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[dangerous]

For those slow omes that missed it.

a ome... I doubt I am... collective / group why are you offended by that, we as a general are slow learners... but some how I think ras was generalising even I get that LOL,,, individuals we are responsibill for our selves and others as they are... however sometimes that is out of our control, unless you want to stay in bed all day.

eitherway to the topic at hand... no overseas visitors / tourests on NZ roads with out a driving corse... fuck em I say :bleh:

[Bonez]

It's the classic "won't happen to me" attitude. That can be partly a survival mechanism given the dangers of riding, but I expect many riders believe that their superior abilities will somehow keep them safe.
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What a load of sanctimonious clap trap. rastuscat claimed E standards had lowered wrt motorcycle safety gear yet he still hasn't provided evidence to back that clain up. He also had no understanding of the Aus/NZ rating system for helmets.

Lumping all riders in the same way is a falsehood also lumping all tourist the same is a falsehood as well. Maxpenquin had not much bother with them at all. Neither did I on my South Island tours. I'm well aware of the dangers of riding, the capabilities of myself and my machines. Hell I've owned and ridden one particular bike since 1986. So yeah generalistion make you all look, well, not that bright.


Typed on my stone tablet using Etchasketch.

[Jeeper]

One might say since since one is still riding 1980s technology, one might not be so familiar with modern technology and advances in motorcycle safety.

Some technological advances are good for safety (eg traction control), some are bad as they can make riders lazy (eg cruise control).

[Jeeper]

Know it all attitude is not too bright either.

[nzspokes]

What a load of sanctimonious clap trap. rastuscat claimed E standards had lowered wrt motorcycle safety gear yet he still hasn't provided evidence to back that clain up. He also had no understanding of the Aus/NZ rating system for helmets.

Lumping all riders in the same way is a falsehood also lumping all tourist the same is a falsehood as well. Maxpenquin had not much bother with them at all. Neither did I on my South Island tours. I'm well aware of the dangers of riding, the capabilities of myself and my machines. Hell I've owned and ridden one particular bike since 1986. So yeah generalistion make you all look, well, not that bright.


Typed on my stone tablet using Etchasketch.Lets make this easy for you. Lots of riders are crap at the riding part.

Get some training.

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[pritch]

yeah sorry... im not quite sure what is meant by "collectives"

I have an idea what 'collectives' are, but my bike is not a helicopter so it doesn't have one. :whistle:

[Berries]

eitherway to the topic at hand... no overseas visitors / tourests on NZ roads with out a driving corse... fuck em I say :bleh:
That will only work for the ones who are really really shit drivers. Any decent driver from overseas would pass easily.

The problem is three weeks in to their trip when they are fully chilled out and they pull back out from wherever they stopped and for a few minutes forget where they are and drive on the wrong side of the road. Been there, done that. It is a toss of a coin as to whether the driver suddenly remembers where they are and pulls back on to the correct side of the road or has a head on killing not only members of their own family but others in the oncoming vehicle.

The only way you will prevent that from happening is banning people from driving here who normally drive on the right. That won’t happen because we are tied to a 1949 agreement. I can’t imagine any government tearing that up so unfortunately innocent people will continue to be killed by visitor drivers who fuck up for that single brief moment.

Hanging them by the neck and then nailing them to a cross on the road coming out of Auckland airport as a warning to others might please some people but it will do absolutely nothing to prevent it happening again because it is not a conscious decision, it is reverting to instinct and you can’t stop that.

[dangerous]

That will only work for the ones who are really really shit drivers. Any decent driver from overseas would pass easily..

I disagree... Really shit nerd it drummed in not to just stop when they want, that stop means stop and look both ways... They need to be told our rds are often narrow and rough... As do the better drivers, its a different country to what ther are used to... I for one would be hapoy to sit in a class for an hour and have another country bash it in to me before I drive

[Jeeper]

So what's your solution? Or you believe it's not a problem worth worrying about.

[dangerous]

So what's your solution? Or you believe it's not a problem worth worrying about.

Huh... You talking to me???

Fucking right it's worth worrying about... And today is to late...

[MaxPenguin]

I disagree... Really shit nerd it drummed in not to just stop when they want, that stop means stop and look both ways... They need to be told our rds are often narrow and rough... As do the better drivers, its a different country to what ther are used to... I for one would be hapoy to sit in a class for an hour and have another country bash it in to me before I drive

Would you be comfortable and trained enough in one hour to drive competently in Bangkok?

[dangerous]

Would you be comfortable and trained enough in one hour to drive competently in Bangkok?

NO... So I won't drive in Bangkok....

So... If people aren't confident driving in NZ... Fucking DONT

[Jeeper]

Huh... You talking to me???

Fucking right it's worth worrying about... And today is to late...It was for Berries, your post just came in between [emoji106]

And I do think it's a problem as well.

[Jeeper]

Would you be comfortable and trained enough in one hour to drive competently in Bangkok?Having driven around some of the most congested cities around the world, nothing can prepare you in a class room setting for this. NZ roads and traffic are actually fairly simple if one stays alert and between the designated lanes.

What will help is the attitude change. Not just with tourist drivers.

[Bonez]

What will help is the attitude change. Not just with tourist drivers.And there boys and girls is the crux of the problem.....

No classroon needed.

[JimO]

Hanging them by the neck and then nailing them to a cross on the road coming out of Auckland airport as a warning to others might please some people but it will do absolutely nothing to prevent it happening again because it is not a conscious decision, it is reverting to instinct and you can’t stop that.
what about the tourists that arrive in NZ at ChCh

[Berries]

So what's your solution? Or you believe it's not a problem worth worrying about.
It is certainly a problem worth worrying about.

My first step would be to separate out the Chinese because they appear to exhibit genuinely poor driving behaviour that is resulting in unacceptable levels of road trauma.

Then you have to realise that you can’t engineer your way out of these issues because there is too much road and too little money. You can’t ban people from certain countries and testing them is pointless because a half hour drive around Auckland and a scratchy is not going to help assess how you cope with SH6 down the West Coast. There is going to be a reliance on technology and collision avoidance but until the real intelligent stuff starts making an appearance and all rental vehicles are required to have it there is going to be more carnage.

There is some small stuff that could be done, like a lot more roadside reminders for tourists. There is a Keep Left road sign now but they don’t have any on the tourist routes down south. Constant reminders and reminders at the right time and place can help reduce the chances of a driver pulling out on the wrong side of the road. Markings can guide them into the correct lane but this is only done at signals, perhaps have them at rest areas as well? There are painted arrows everywhere now but even these could be improved by angling them towards the correct lane.

There are little things like that but the reality will remain the same. At some point somewhere on their holiday they might make a mistake and the chances are most of the time they will get away with it. When they don’t it will be front page news because it is a bloody foreigner and New Zealand loves stuff like that. Not trying to belittle this serious issue, but if you are involved in a head on crash it is far more likely to be with a local.

The solution that will be foisted on us all is a blanket reduction in the speed limit on popular tourist routes to accommodate the shit driving that we all see but also to reduce the impact when a head on crash does occur.

[Jeeper]

I believe the problem can't be legislated out or engineered out. Reducing speed limits unnecessarily simply frustrates drivers, who would then breach it anyway.

Big part of the problem with attitude is the fact that a lot of the tourists come off a long haul flight and start driving immediately. Body is tired, brain is sleep deprived, in a new environment, in an unfamiliar vehicle, on unfamiliar route. They all contribute. Worse part for me are camper drivers who have never driven anything heavier than a Corolla in their life before. They have no idea about the physics of how a much heavier vehicle behaves.

I never drive for at least 24 hours after a long haul flight. My brain needs to rest before I can use it again properly.

Same thing happens with local drivers who drive when they are either too tired or under the influence of a substance.

If someone goes and kills just themselves because they were idiots and wanted to drive when they shouldn't, fine by me - thanks for cleaning up the gene pool. Just don't harm other innocent people around you with your attitude.

[FJRider]

I believe the problem can't be legislated out or engineered out. Reducing speed limits unnecessarily simply frustrates drivers, who would then breach it anyway.

Big part of the problem with attitude is the fact that a lot of the tourists come off a long haul flight and start driving immediately. Body is tired, brain is sleep deprived, in a new environment, in an unfamiliar vehicle, on unfamiliar route. They all contribute. Worse part for me are camper drivers who have never driven anything heavier than a Corolla in their life before. They have no idea about the physics of how a much heavier vehicle behaves.

That wasn't the issue with the Moraki crash. Tourists (and Kiwi's) driving large unfamiliar vehicles, on unfamiliar roads ... in "Holiday Mode" ... when their only issue is their next scenic spot (wherever it pops up) or their intended destination.

They spend more time looking for (and at) things that are nowhere near or on the road itself. Signs to popular tourist spots are the thing they spend time looking for, and concentrating on.

Traveling slower means gaps in the traffic flow close quicker than they expect. Once they make the decision to turn ... they no longer watch the oncoming traffic. Their world is all that matters to them.

[dangerous]

Having driven around some of the most congested cities around the world, nothing can prepare you in a class room setting for this. NZ roads and traffic are actually fairly simple if one stays alert and between the designated lanes.

What will help is the attitude change. Not just with tourist drivers.

First... How does a kiwi driving sensabaly change their attude in order to stay alive due to the retarded fuck commi g at them on the wrong side of the Rd???

Class rooms... Shit to drum into them, only pull over to the left, roads are narrow and tight, do not drive to slow, do not stop on a fucking bridge resulting in a following bike having to swerve and end up head on dead... Indercate... And if the fucks don't understand English, get a bloody tour bus

I have to sit in classes and have the shit scared out of me regarding prosecution regarding occupational health and safety, as responsibilities with my job, it works so same for a temp nz licence

[Bonez]

First... How does a kiwi driving sensabaly change their attude in order to stay alive due to the retarded fuck commi g at them on the wrong side of the Rd???That motorcyclist going at a rapid pace he/she/it had to cross the centre line to get around a corner?

[Jeeper]

First... How does a kiwi driving sensabaly change their attude in order to stay alive due to the retarded fuck commi g at them on the wrong side of the Rd???

Class rooms... Shit to drum into them, only pull over to the left, roads are narrow and tight, do not drive to slow, do not stop on a fucking bridge resulting in a following bike having to swerve and end up head on dead... Indercate... And if the fucks don't understand English, get a bloody tour bus

I have to sit in classes and have the shit scared out of me regarding prosecution regarding occupational health and safety, as responsibilities with my job, it works so same for a temp nz licenceMost cars this pedal called brake, actually motorcycles have two of them. Second, driving to conditions.

Try taking an advance driver training course and see how it makes invisible hazards visible.

[FJRider]

... So... If people aren't confident driving in NZ... Fucking DONT


They ARE ... and they DO.


Next solution please.

[FJRider]

First... How does a kiwi driving sensabaly change their attude in order to stay alive due to the retarded fuck commi g at them on the wrong side of the Rd???

This crash happened because the campervan was turning right across the south bound of traffic. Not just travailing on the wrong side of the road. In effect a slow moving road block.

The assumption that ALL traffic WILL give way to them as is legally required at ALL times ... is an assumption that must simply must change. It MAY happen ... SOMETIMES. Not always ... merely sometimes. Just being "In the Right" is no safety guarantee. EVER.

I have found it easier to assume they wont. No real surprise then if they don't. No confusion as to what I should do ... and I get to live a little longer if my caution is warranted.

[FJRider]

That motorcyclist going at a rapid pace he/she/it had to cross the centre line to get around a corner?

THAT is a different situation to having another vehicle coming at you on your side of the road. Changing lanes to get around a corner is a different situation entirely.

It would be better to expect oncoming traffic in the lane (you are using) at any time. Relax and you die (maybe).


Rider choice. But too many die being "In the right" ... and MORE die being TOTALLY in the wrong.

Bloody cager's eh ... :devil2:

[FJRider]

So you made a clain without varifying it was true. Another example of a completely stupid statement from you.


Another explanation ???? and I may know a little more than you do of that event.

ps: you need spellcheck.

[dangerous]

Most cars this pedal called brake, actually motorcycles have two of them. Second, driving to conditions.

Try taking an advance driver training course and see how it makes invisible hazards visible.

look mate... iv been riding non stop since 1980... raced and rallyed over half a milion ks on two wheels... NOW im 1st to say the day you stop learning is the day you die...

for shits n giggles im gona take this personal and your gona get a dose of fuck you old cunt ranga... thats right from me... two fucking brakes aye no FUCKING SHIT ride to the conditions, your taking the bloody piss right...

last weekend I was well below the speed limit, well in my limits and well in the bikes... but when a on coming slit eyed cunt (hey if he was white kiwi id call him a wide eyed honky cunt) turns in front of me to park up and look at the view with not a cear in the world for any other fucker... and the slit eyed cunt behind him follows... thats just fucking bull shit.. and yes I was that close I no for fact their eyes looked closed... ohhh shit may be they were just well taned and he'd eyes closed... MY BAD

[Jeeper]

Hey, I never said one can avoid every single shitty situation. Sometimes it just happens and there is nothing one can do about avoiding the idiots on road. My point is, don't generalise to tourists only because there are plenty of home-grown idiots out on the roads.

[Trade_nancy]

Having just today finished our 2500km, 8 day North Island tour - Palmy up to Cape Reinga return.....I can say the most frequent "worry" for us (missus was pilion)..was people tailgating while we were moving through unfamiliar "rough" twisties. Navigating fractured and pot-holed third-world roads. The fully loaded up Bonnie T120 with a pillion is far from the ideal touring and twisties bike anyhow....but I had to back off the button a bit to keep the bike in a stable line. Not to mention the missus getting spine-jarring crashes from the rear as we hit an unseen crater. We were still doing on the speed limit give or take 5kph...but some bastard Steve, Bazza or Nigel was determined to push us out of the way from behind in their SUV, Ute or Skyline...all these would be Kiwis. They can happily hold their cage on a level 110-120kph and ride over the shit holes with no fear. I opted to just slow a bit, move left and wave them past. Some of them appeared further up the line..just a few cars ahead...stuck at a road works stoppage.

[SaferRides]

Yeah, the roads up north are something else. I'd probably buy a GS if I lived north of Whangarei.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[dangerous]

..but some bastard Steve, Bazza or Nigel was determined to push us out of the way from behind in their SUV, Ute or Skyline...all these would be Kiwis. They can happily hold their cage on a level 110-120kph and ride over the shit holes with no fear. I opted to just slow a bit, move left and wave them past.

hey... we all know the round eye kiwi is often a shocking driver, tailgating, speeding, driving drunk.. all habits of old, shit im probably one. but tailgating dosent kill like pulling across in front of on coming traffic, or stopping on blind bends to take bloody selfies, and once again has nothing to do with this thread... :girlfight:

[Bonez]

hey... we all know the round eye kiwi is often a shocking driver, tailgating, speeding, driving drunk.. all habits of old, shit im probably one. but tailgating dosent kill like pulling across in front of on coming traffic, or stopping on blind bends to take bloody selfies, and once again has nothing to do with this thread... :girlfight:
Tail gaters can force riders to do stupid things they wouldn't botherwise do. Especially inexperienced riders.

Then you get your fuck wit rider tail gater. I just tap the breaks in the puddle jumper a few times and that that usual wakes them up.

[JimO]

Having just today finished our 2500km, 8 day North Island tour - Palmy up to Cape Reinga return.....I can say the most frequent "worry" for us (missus was pilion)..was people tailgating while we were moving through unfamiliar "rough" twisties. Navigating fractured and pot-holed third-world roads.
try riding around the tourist spots in the Sth Island

[Laava]

Yeah, the roads up north are something else. I'd probably buy a GS if I lived north of Whangarei.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
SH1 is crap, but the rest are mint, and no-one is on them!

[Trade_nancy]

try riding around the tourist spots in the Sth Island

Done that. Done South Island top to tail several times. Quite an eye opener for sure. Best of the craziest was the Haast Pass - we went through last in Feb 2018 and it was not so bad - but previously in 2016 - we counted 8 cars (seemingly all small rentals) dumped in the roadside ditches. Some covered by police tape - some not. Wife's brother is an Invergiggle copper - he said it is common practice for the Asian tourists to bomb their cars there. They don't understand corners at all.

[dangerous]

Done that. Done South Island top to tail several times. Quite an eye opener for sure. Best of the craziest was the Haast Pass - we went through last in Feb 2018 and it was not so bad - but previously in 2016 - we counted 8 cars (seemingly all small rentals) dumped in the roadside ditches. Some covered by police tape - some not. Wife's brother is an Invergiggle copper - he said it is common practice for the Asian tourists to bomb their cars there. They don't understand corners at all.

and this is what im saying... show a video to the tourest in the classroom at the rental place before they depart, add some grusomness, scare them whit our roads reality...

honestly it cant hurt now can it???

[Bonez]

and this is what im saying... show a video to the tourest in the classroom at the rental place before they depart, add some grusomness, scare them whit our roads reality...

honestly it cant hurt now can it???
It'll do fuck all with all the shit available/they get exposed to in the news, movies and youtube.

Occupation Safety and Health semenars are designed to inform you. After you have been to a few it's mah. And I've been to a few in the last 30 years. Even tutored in a few.

[JimO]

Done that. Done South Island top to tail several times. Quite an eye opener for sure. Best of the craziest was the Haast Pass - we went through last in Feb 2018 and it was not so bad - but previously in 2016 - we counted 8 cars (seemingly all small rentals) dumped in the roadside ditches. Some covered by police tape - some not. Wife's brother is an Invergiggle copper - he said it is common practice for the Asian tourists to bomb their cars there. They don't understand corners at all.
most drive in traffic in citys if they drive at all, here they have no idea how to handle a car at higher speed on the open road, i spent a month in china and the standard of driving over there is pretty bad their road toll is tremendous

[mulletman]

Done that. Done South Island top to tail several times. Quite an eye opener for sure. Best of the craziest was the Haast Pass - we went through last in Feb 2018 and it was not so bad - but previously in 2016 - we counted 8 cars (seemingly all small rentals) dumped in the roadside ditches. Some covered by police tape - some not. Wife's brother is an Invergiggle copper - he said it is common practice for the Asian tourists to bomb their cars there. They don't understand corners at all.

Ive noticed this alot all around the south island in the last few years , not only newer looking cars but older ones as well (im guessing ph use with the older.)

[Berries]

My last comment because the thread has been butchered with pages of rubbish. Some tourist drivers are shit. Most are no different to us, in fact many of them may be better than us. Like us though they make mistakes and on occasion those mistakes could be while driving. On occasion those mistakes could be while driving on holiday. So shit happens.

Another thread recently showed that right turn against crashes are by far the most common crash for a motorbike vs other vehicle. That is what happened at Moeraki. I doubt the driver being from overseas was a significant factor at all this time.

And contrary to another post in this thread, there are some crashes where shit just happens and training won't help. T junction on a rural road. You see a vehicle that is clearly going to cross your path. You slow down, you cover your brakes, position your bike better etc etc etc. At some point you go through a zone where there is no escape route if the driver has not seen you and decides to floor it and turn at speed. This is why those crashes are the most common. Yes, I suppose you could slow to a stop prior to the intersection. Assuming you don't become a bonnet ornament for the vehicle behind you doing 100km/h you'll never get anywhere.



Ive noticed this alot all around the south island in the last few years , not only newer looking cars but older ones as well (im guessing ph use with the older.)
They park them like that down in Milton. It's the meth.

[Bonez]

My last comment because the thread has been butchered with pages of rubbish. Some tourist drivers are shit. Most are no different to us, in fact many of them may be better than us. Like us though they make mistakes and on occasion those mistakes could be while driving. On occasion those mistakes could be while driving on holiday. So shit happens.

Another thread recently showed that right turn against crashes are by far the most common crash for a motorbike vs other vehicle. That is what happened at Moeraki. I doubt the driver being from overseas was a significant factor at all this time.

And contrary to another post in this thread, there are some crashes where shit just happens and training won't help. T junction on a rural road. You see a vehicle that is clearly going to cross your path. You slow down, you cover your brakes, position your bike better etc etc etc. At some point you go through a zone where there is no escape route if the driver has not seen you and decides to floor it and turn at speed. This is why those crashes are the most common. Yes, I suppose you could slow to a stop prior to the intersection. Assuming you don't become a bonnet ornament for the vehicle behind you doing 100km/h you'll never get anywhere.
Another great post by Berries. I tip my hat sir.

Having been involve in a shit happens incident with car that Tboned me I know exactly what he means,

Some here seem to think teaching is the cover all bases solution when actual experance out on our, in places, rather crappy roads as well as the have to deal with crappy riders/drivers(domestic and overseas visitors)/cyclist/padestrians/stock etc.

I applaud riders like the young deaf lass new to riding I met last weekend. Out there in the pea gravel doing it instead of theorising in a class room or getting their knee down on the track.

[nzspokes]

Another great post by Berries. I tip my hat sir.

Having been involve in a shit happens incident with car that Tboned me I know exactly what he means,

Some here seem to think teaching is the cover all bases solution when actual experance out on our, in places, rather crappy roads as well as the have to deal with crappy riders/drivers(domestic and overseas visitors)/cyclist/padestrians/stock etc.

I applaud riders like the young deaf lass new to riding I met last weekend. Out there in the pea gravel doing it instead of theorising in a class room or getting their knee down on the track.Clearly you don't understand training.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Bonez]

Clearly you don't understand training.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

i've been involved in training throughout my whole working carreer dickhead. Drafted safety manuals, practices a proprocedures for various feilds of operations, tutorials.
Training only goes so far. There is no sub subtitute for exprience. Any good instructor will tell you that. In fact you'll most likely find if a student has been doing a certain task/operation for a while they'll know more than the instructor about that task/operation..

What is your claim to fame? You're just a keyboard worrier that knows didly sqat about training at all.

[rastuscat]

Another great post by Berries. I tip my hat sir.

Having been involve in a shit happens incident with car that Tboned me I know exactly what he means,

Some here seem to think teaching is the cover all bases solution when actual experance out on our, in places, rather crappy roads as well as the have to deal with crappy riders/drivers(domestic and overseas visitors)/cyclist/padestrians/stock etc.

I applaud riders like the young deaf lass new to riding I met last weekend. Out there in the pea gravel doing it instead of theorising in a class room or getting their knee down on the track.

Indeed. Berries nailed it. There are some crashes that can't be avoided by coaching.

A friend hit a tree on the West Coast a few years back. The tree fell onto the road at the precise second my friend was passing that point. He happened to be riding a Police R1150RT-P at the time. No amount of the training he had could have prevented that.

However, I suggest that those bins are the minority. Most often there is something we can do, something in the way we ride, that can help to minimise our chance of becoming a victim. Either of our own mistakes, or of the mistakes of others.

However, the pattern I've personally seen is the human tendency the apportion blame elsewhere. It's normal to do that. Freud said so.

In reality, the discussion about fault doesn't matter much when you are lying in the back of an ambulance, with a broken arm, broken leg and ruptured spleen. Coaching is about things you can do to reduce the risk of those things.

Sorry to see this thread turn into a slanging match. But hey, it is what we make it.

[Bonez]

A big factor is our emotions get away on us wrt blame. Best thing to do is take a deep breath and try to process what happened without getting too carried away. When I was Tboned the lady who was diving the car was obviously in shock and sat parked across the road for the police/ambulance to arrive.

[nzspokes]

i've been involved in training throughout my whole working carreer dickhead. Drafted safety manuals, practices a proprocedures for various feilds of operations, tutorials.
Training only goes so far. There is no sub subtitute for exprience. Any good instructor will tell you that. In fact you'll most likely find if a student has been doing a certain task/operation for a while they'll know more than the instructor about that task/operation..

What is your claim to fame? You're just a keyboard worrier that knows didly sqat about training at all.Experience is a bad instructor, it gives you exam before the lesson.

BTW turn spell check on .

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Bonez]

Experience is a bad instructor, it gives you exam before the lesson.

BTW turn spell check on .

Sent from my SM-G965F using TapatalkYou're full of shit. It's obvoius you don't have a clue what you are on about.

Ever heard of work experirence?

[onearmedbandit]

79 posts removed from this thread, another 21 and I reach my daily quota!

[Bonez]

Well done OAB.

[rastuscat]

79 posts removed from this thread, another 21 and I reach my daily quota!

Luf u long time.

Makes me smile to think that you have a quota. I used to be accused of that. :)

[Stylo]

Luf u long time.

Makes me smile to think that you have a quota. I used to be accused of that. :)

I think it was you that pulled me up Rastus, maybe 5 years ago when I was on my way to Akaroa on the 'Busa. You were standing and pointing the speed gun thing at me as I came round the corner. One of those public holiday weekends when the speed limit was 105 . You asked me why I was going so quick and I said 'How fast was I going? ' You said I was doing 106. A remarkable feat that I was only going that fast . No ticket but you gave me a voucher for a rider course at Ruapuna. I gave that to my partner and she actually did the course on her Suzuki Gladius 650 ( surely the worst name ever given to a motorcycle) If it wasn't you then it must have been another good coppa. Never gone over 105 since.

[JimO]

I think it was you that pulled me up Rastus, maybe 5 years ago when I was on my way to Akaroa on the 'Busa. You were standing and pointing the speed gun thing at me as I came round the corner. One of those public holiday weekends when the speed limit was 105 . You asked me why I was going so quick and I said 'How fast was I going? ' You said I was doing 106. A remarkable feat that I was only going that fast . No ticket but you gave me a voucher for a rider course at Ruapuna. I gave that to my partner and she actually did the course on her Suzuki Gladius 650 ( surely the worst name ever given to a motorcycle) If it wasn't you then it must have been another good coppa. Never gone over 105 since. must have been a downhill to get a old Busa up to 106

[Bonez]

must have been a downhill to get a old Busa up to 106Miles an hour......

[rastuscat]

I think it was you that pulled me up Rastus, maybe 5 years ago when I was on my way to Akaroa on the 'Busa. You were standing and pointing the speed gun thing at me as I came round the corner. One of those public holiday weekends when the speed limit was 105 . You asked me why I was going so quick and I said 'How fast was I going? ' You said I was doing 106. A remarkable feat that I was only going that fast . No ticket but you gave me a voucher for a rider course at Ruapuna. I gave that to my partner and she actually did the course on her Suzuki Gladius 650 ( surely the worst name ever given to a motorcycle) If it wasn't you then it must have been another good coppa. Never gone over 105 since.

Irony. I ended up working at that school based at Ruapuna.

Just to note though. The speed limit was and is 100. It's the tolerance that changes.

Heard about my latest gig?

[rastuscat]

344660

The grey hair tells a story.

[onearmedbandit]

The grey hair tells a story.

Excessive consumption of donuts leads to premature greying?

[TheDemonLord]

Indeed. Berries nailed it. There are some crashes that can't be avoided by coaching.

A friend hit a tree on the West Coast a few years back. The tree fell onto the road at the precise second my friend was passing that point. He happened to be riding a Police R1150RT-P at the time. No amount of the training he had could have prevented that.

However, I suggest that those bins are the minority. Most often there is something we can do, something in the way we ride, that can help to minimise our chance of becoming a victim. Either of our own mistakes, or of the mistakes of others.

However, the pattern I've personally seen is the human tendency the apportion blame elsewhere. It's normal to do that. Freud said so.

In reality, the discussion about fault doesn't matter much when you are lying in the back of an ambulance, with a broken arm, broken leg and ruptured spleen. Coaching is about things you can do to reduce the risk of those things.

Sorry to see this thread turn into a slanging match. But hey, it is what we make it.

To really dial in the nuance - both accidents I've had (fortunately minor) were caused by a third party, but even then - there were things I could (and should) have done proactively that would have avoided the crash.

One look at Youtube Go-Pro accident compilations - I've yet to see a single one where the accident didn't start a good 3-5 seconds before the rider noticed and started to take any evasive action, those seconds could have prevented the accident.

By that I mean (as an example) a Car started to pull out of an intersection (the start of the accident) but the rider only noticed and started evasive action when the car crossed into their path.

There are other things as well - bitter experience in Auckland taught me to be especially wary of large, late model luxury SUVs in white, driven by a particular demographic.

I think the TL;DR is that whilst the overwhelming majority of crashes are ones where there were action(s) that the rider could have taken to prevent or mitigate the accident, then people will continue to bang the 'Training' drum loudly for all to hear.

Should we ever reach a time and place where the majority of Crashes are through completely unavoidable scenarios, then the discussion will move in a different direction.

[Conquiztador]

It is certainly a problem worth worrying about.

My first step would be to separate out the Chinese because they appear to exhibit genuinely poor driving behaviour that is resulting in unacceptable levels of road trauma.

Then you have to realise that you can’t engineer your way out of these issues because there is too much road and too little money. You can’t ban people from certain countries and testing them is pointless because a half hour drive around Auckland and a scratchy is not going to help assess how you cope with SH6 down the West Coast. There is going to be a reliance on technology and collision avoidance but until the real intelligent stuff starts making an appearance and all rental vehicles are required to have it there is going to be more carnage.

There is some small stuff that could be done, like a lot more roadside reminders for tourists. There is a Keep Left road sign now but they don’t have any on the tourist routes down south. Constant reminders and reminders at the right time and place can help reduce the chances of a driver pulling out on the wrong side of the road. Markings can guide them into the correct lane but this is only done at signals, perhaps have them at rest areas as well? There are painted arrows everywhere now but even these could be improved by angling them towards the correct lane.

There are little things like that but the reality will remain the same. At some point somewhere on their holiday they might make a mistake and the chances are most of the time they will get away with it. When they don’t it will be front page news because it is a bloody foreigner and New Zealand loves stuff like that. Not trying to belittle this serious issue, but if you are involved in a head on crash it is far more likely to be with a local.

The solution that will be foisted on us all is a blanket reduction in the speed limit on popular tourist routes to accommodate the shit driving that we all see but also to reduce the impact when a head on crash does occur.

This kind of stuff will keep on happening as long as we drive/ride on the roads.

Here some thoughts that might make a difference, then again... but fwiw here goes:

- If you turn up in NZ with an overseas driving license and you rent a vehicle you will need to buy an insurance that will provide funds for a family that lost a loved one or he/she ended up in hospital as result of your driving. If you bring the vehicle back and you have not had an accident that has caused an injury or death, or you have no fines based on your poor driving, you will get some money back from what you paid for the insurance.

- If you come from overseas with a non NZ license and someone lends you a car, the car lender needs to know that if the overseas visitor does not have the insurance (as above) the lender will also be held responsible for the accident.

- When you come to Kiwi Land you need to know that if you seriously injure or you kill someone with your driving and it was your fault, the minimum penalty is 3 years in jail. Only people who come from countries that have an agreement between NZ and their country that stipulates that if you, as result of your driving, end up in court and you get a jail sentence, you are able to complete this sentence in your home country, are allowed to drive in NZ.

- Only overseas drivers who can prove that they hold a clean driving record and they have held their overseas license for a minimum of 3 years can drive in NZ.

- If you have an incident where you kill someone in NZ, or you put them in hospital, you will NOT be able to return to NZ if this happened while you only held an overseas license.

Harsh? Yep. Doable? Yep. Will it happen. Nope.

[Berries]

This kind of stuff will keep on happening as long as we drive/ride on the roads.

Here some thoughts that might make a difference, then again... but fwiw here goes:

- If you turn up in NZ with an overseas driving license and you rent a vehicle you will need to buy an insurance that will provide funds for a family that lost a loved one or he/she ended up in hospital as result of your driving. If you bring the vehicle back and you have not had an accident that has caused an injury or death, or you have no fines based on your poor driving, you will get some money back from what you paid for the insurance.

- If you come from overseas with a non NZ license and someone lends you a car, the car lender needs to know that if the overseas visitor does not have the insurance (as above) the lender will also be held responsible for the accident.

- When you come to Kiwi Land you need to know that if you seriously injure or you kill someone with your driving and it was your fault, the minimum penalty is 3 years in jail. Only people who come from countries that have an agreement between NZ and their country that stipulates that if you, as result of your driving, end up in court and you get a jail sentence, you are able to complete this sentence in your home country, are allowed to drive in NZ.

- Only overseas drivers who can prove that they hold a clean driving record and they have held their overseas license for a minimum of 3 years can drive in NZ.

- If you have an incident where you kill someone in NZ, or you put them in hospital, you will NOT be able to return to NZ if this happened while you only held an overseas license.

Harsh? Yep. Doable? Yep. Will it happen. Nope.
Cool. I take it you would introduce the same measures and penalties for NZ drivers seeing as they cause most of the crashes? Three year ban for any crash, compulsory insurance, three years jail for careless causing death etc?

Should start to make a dent in the road toll.

[Bonez]

I personally think 3rd party insurance should be compulsory as part of the registration process. But then of course you have things like farmers vehicles such as 4 wheelers that aren't registered on roads frequented by the likes of myself who prefer to be off the main highways.

[rastuscat]

This kind of stuff will keep on happening as long as we drive/ride on the roads.

Here some thoughts that might make a difference, then again... but fwiw here goes:

- If you turn up in NZ with an overseas driving license and you rent a vehicle you will need to buy an insurance that will provide funds for a family that lost a loved one or he/she ended up in hospital as result of your driving. If you bring the vehicle back and you have not had an accident that has caused an injury or death, or you have no fines based on your poor driving, you will get some money back from what you paid for the insurance.

- If you come from overseas with a non NZ license and someone lends you a car, the car lender needs to know that if the overseas visitor does not have the insurance (as above) the lender will also be held responsible for the accident.

- When you come to Kiwi Land you need to know that if you seriously injure or you kill someone with your driving and it was your fault, the minimum penalty is 3 years in jail. Only people who come from countries that have an agreement between NZ and their country that stipulates that if you, as result of your driving, end up in court and you get a jail sentence, you are able to complete this sentence in your home country, are allowed to drive in NZ.

- Only overseas drivers who can prove that they hold a clean driving record and they have held their overseas license for a minimum of 3 years can drive in NZ.

- If you have an incident where you kill someone in NZ, or you put them in hospital, you will NOT be able to return to NZ if this happened while you only held an overseas license.

Harsh? Yep. Doable? Yep. Will it happen. Nope.


Actually quite good ideas. Won't happen but valid.

So, now that you have a plan for 2% of our driving population, what of the 98% that are locals? Who cause 95% of the crashes.

Asking for a friend.

[Hobbyhorse]

Actually quite good ideas. Won't happen but valid.

So, now that you have a plan for 2% of our driving population, what of the 98% that are locals? Who cause 95% of the crashes.

Asking for a friend.

Rastus, your level headed comments are valued by people like myself who visit this site regularly, but rarely post on the forum ..... thanks.

[Racing Dave]

Remember the Rainbow Warrior? Here's an analogy...




- When you come to Kiwi Land you need to know that if you seriously injure or you kill someone with your driving (bombing) and it was your fault, the minimum penalty is 3 years in jail. Only people who come from countries that have an agreement between NZ and their country that stipulates that if you, as result of your driving (bombing), end up in court and you get a jail sentence, you are able to complete this sentence in your home country or the Pacific Island of your choice, are allowed to drive (sink ships) in NZ.



How well did that turn out. David Lange - NZ's most hypocritical PM.

[MaxPenguin]

Is part of the problem with tourists that they are here for recreation therefore their mindset while driving is the same?
Same with motorcyclists? most are using the road for recreational needs, so not taking the roads as seriously as they should?

Not relating this to the specific Moeraki incident as the discussion has moved on from that now.

[Bonez]

Remember the Rainbow Warrior? Here's an analogy...



How well did that turn out. David Lange - NZ's most hypocritical PM.WTF does that have to do with the current discussion wrt road users? Move on or your hair will fall out.

[rastuscat]

Rastus, your level headed comments are valued by people like myself who visit this site regularly, but rarely post on the forum ..... thanks.

Aww schucks.:hug:

[Racing Dave]

WTF does that have to do with the current discussion wrt road users? Move on or your hair will fall out.

If you don't understand the word 'analogy', just say so.

[Bonez]

If you don't understand the word 'analogy', just say so.I had an allergy once. But Laava went to PD.

[nzspokes]

To really dial in the nuance - both accidents I've had (fortunately minor) were caused by a third party, but even then - there were things I could (and should) have done proactively that would have avoided the crash.

One look at Youtube Go-Pro accident compilations - I've yet to see a single one where the accident didn't start a good 3-5 seconds before the rider noticed and started to take any evasive action, those seconds could have prevented the accident.

By that I mean (as an example) a Car started to pull out of an intersection (the start of the accident) but the rider only noticed and started evasive action when the car crossed into their path.

There are other things as well - bitter experience in Auckland taught me to be especially wary of large, late model luxury SUVs in white, driven by a particular demographic.

I think the TL;DR is that whilst the overwhelming majority of crashes are ones where there were action(s) that the rider could have taken to prevent or mitigate the accident, then people will continue to bang the 'Training' drum loudly for all to hear.

Should we ever reach a time and place where the majority of Crashes are through completely unavoidable scenarios, then the discussion will move in a different direction.Nailed it.

Only if some group could give you help on uow to see these threats starting to happen....


Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Jeeper]

Cool. I take it you would introduce the same measures and penalties for NZ drivers seeing as they cause most of the crashes? Three year ban for any crash, compulsory insurance, three years jail for careless causing death etc?

Should start to make a dent in the road toll.That would make the biggest difference. I'll support if you push for it.

[Bonez]

Is part of the problem with tourists that they are here for recreation therefore their mindset while driving is the same?
Same with motorcyclists? most are using the road for recreational needs, so not taking the roads as seriously as they should?

Not relating this to the specific Moeraki incident as the discussion has moved on from that now.There's still a lot of riders that think public roads are their very own private race track. One example a Busa that could'nt handle a 90 degree band bend when he and the following Kwaka 1100 rider promply ended up going through a farmers gate and going down. I' ve no sympathy at all.

Harley Furgason riders generally ride in heards, most likely to keep each other from falling off the road, and ard usually fairly harmless. But that cunt on the high capacity sprot bike who is wannabe GP racer is one to be carefull of.

[Conquiztador]

Actually quite good ideas. Won't happen but valid.

So, now that you have a plan for 2% of our driving population, what of the 98% that are locals? Who cause 95% of the crashes.

Asking for a friend.

The proportion of serious incidents caused by the number of visitors to NZ is much higher than for kiwis. I think the figure was something like the 2% of visitors on our roads cause 7% of serious injury/fatal crashes and a big proportion of them are through our summer period.

Regarding what to do with kiwi drivers that cause carnage. I thought you guys already had a plan for that? Is it not working??

[Conquiztador]

Cool. I take it you would introduce the same measures and penalties for NZ drivers seeing as they cause most of the crashes? Three year ban for any crash, compulsory insurance, three years jail for careless causing death etc?

Should start to make a dent in the road toll.

Personally I would have no problem with that. But read my post properly: The 3 years of jail is only for death or serious/life altering injuries to the innocent party. In my view there is no reason for 3 years in jail for damaging a car while parking.

However this thread was not about how to fix NZ roads but about the carnage visitors to NZ cause.

[Conquiztador]

Remember the Rainbow Warrior? Here's an analogy...



How well did that turn out. David Lange - NZ's most hypocritical PM.

You with Greenpeace?

[rastuscat]

The proportion of serious incidents caused by the number of visitors to NZ is much higher than for kiwis. I think the figure was something like the 2% of visitors on our roads cause 7% of serious injury/fatal crashes and a big proportion of them are through our summer period.

Regarding what to do with kiwi drivers that cause carnage. I thought you guys already had a plan for that? Is it not working??

That's the lovely thing about numbers. You can use them any way you want.

I like these ones. Most crashes in NZ are caused by locals. Most are caused by Mr and Mrs Average.

Who caused them doesn't mean much, as cause is established post-crash. I want to anticipate crashes, so I can avoid having them.

Prevention is better than cure.

[jellywrestler]

I personally think 3rd party insurance should be compulsory as part of the registration process. But then of course you have things like farmers vehicles such as 4 wheelers that aren't registered on roads frequented by the likes of myself who prefer to be off the main highways.

don't mean jack shit if the driver is drunk, car is stolen, doesn't have a warrant of fitness etc

[jellywrestler]

Actually quite good ideas. Won't happen but valid.

So, now that you have a plan for 2% of our driving population, what of the 98% that are locals? Who cause 95% of the crashes.

Asking for a friend.

drunk drivers cause 10% of accidents, sober ones 90%, those statistics alone say we should ban sober drivers

[Conquiztador]

That's the lovely thing about numbers. You can use them any way you want.

I like these ones. Most crashes in NZ are caused by locals. Most are caused by Mr and Mrs Average.

Who caused them doesn't mean much, as cause is established post-crash. I want to anticipate crashes, so I can avoid having them.

Prevention is better than cure.

A big problem is normally made up of a bunch of smaller problems. To reduce the problem you would dissect the big problem to see where you can make the biggest difference by the least effort and cost.

Drink driving, driving while high and going over the speed limit are what is considered the main issues currently. Huge amount of man hours and resources are poured in to these three. Is it working? Many would say no when looking at the statistics. The only way to find out would be to stop the current action against these three causes. But that is not logical and I expect it would backfire badly. There seems to be no new ideas re how to get these three under control. As result the focus is on doing what we have been doing and pouring even more resources in to it. Do I have a solution here? No. It is not my area of expertise and quite a few are already paid good salaries to fix this. That it is not working would indicate that the wrong people have been given this task.

My suggested approach to the issue this thread is addressing was only about the issue we in NZ have with visitors who drive here, not about the huge problem as mentioned above. So for posters to come up with the "kiwis cause carnage too" does not belong here. And there are already a multitude of threads with that focus.

[Conquiztador]

drunk drivers cause 10% of accidents, sober ones 90%, those statistics alone say we should ban sober drivers

Now we are getting somewhere!!:laugh:

[Bonez]

don't mean jack shit if the driver is drunk, car is stolen, doesn't have a warrant of fitness etcBut drunk drivers only cause 10% of the incidents. What percentage of the 10% don't have reg/wof? There's probably a damn sight more sober drivers without reg/wof.

[rastuscat]

But drunk drivers only cause 10% of the incidents. What percentage of the 10% don't have reg/wof? There's probably a damn sight more sober drivers without reg/wof.

Vehicle factors cause around 5% of motorcycle fatalities. Road factors another 5%.

Motorcyclists are involved in 100% of motorcycle crashes. Couldn't resist this stat. It's open to interpretation.

By deduction, 90% of motorcycle crashes aren't caused by the road or by vehicles. A short list of suspects suggests that it is down to people. 90% of motorcycle crashes are caused by people.

Ban people from the transport system. Job done.

[Bonez]

.By deduction, 90% of motorcycle crashes aren't caused by the road or by vehicles. A short list of suspects suggests that it is down to people. 90% of motorcycle crashes are caused by people.
Well bugger me days. That is hard one to get ones head around.:brick: I got hit in the front wheel by a cockeys blind wolf hound on the CX once. Luckily I was at almost walking pace because was moving sheep from one paddock to the other. The wolf hound was just follow the the other sheep dogs barks.We had a nice chat for half an hour or so. The things you come across on back country roads........

[nzspokes]

Well bugger me days. That is hard one to get ones head around.:brick: I got hit in the front wheel by a cockeys blind wolf hound on the CX once. Luckily I was at almost walking pace because was moving sheep from one paddock to the other. The wolf hound was just follow the the other sheep dogs barks.We had a nice chat for half an hour or so. The things you come across on back country roads........Good god, Cassina's back!

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[Bonez]

Good god, Cassina's back!

Sent from my SM-G965F using TapatalkHe's obviously a handsome chap that rides quality motorcycles.

Btw thanks for quoting me. It will annoy the shit out of Laava, being the fragile thing she is.

[Conquiztador]

Vehicle factors cause around 5% of motorcycle fatalities. Road factors another 5%.

Motorcyclists are involved in 100% of motorcycle crashes. Couldn't resist this stat. It's open to interpretation.

By deduction, 90% of motorcycle crashes aren't caused by the road or by vehicles. A short list of suspects suggests that it is down to people. 90% of motorcycle crashes are caused by people.

Ban people from the transport system. Job done.

You seem to have a drawer full of statistics. Perhaps you can find the answer to this one: How many % of bike crashes are caused by riders on stolen bikes?? And how many % are caused by riders on bikes w/o WOF and/or Rego?

[rastuscat]

You seem to have a drawer full of statistics. Perhaps you can find the answer to this one: How many % of bike crashes are caused by riders on stolen bikes?? And how many % are caused by riders on bikes w/o WOF and/or Rego?

That one would need to go to my former employer.

[FJRider]

... Ban people from the transport system. Job done.

They ARE working on it ... be patient .. :laugh:

[Berries]

How many % of bike crashes are caused by riders on stolen bikes??
I could check as rastuscat can't be arsed but honestly, it is insignificant. Well, at least in New Zealand, Auckland might be a different matter.


And how many % are caused by riders on bikes w/o WOF and/or Rego?
With the ACC levy the way it is some people no longer pay rego. This does not increase their crash risk in the slightest. There are certainly a number of fuckwits out there on unregistered bikes that could never get a warrant but again, a minority.

[Conquiztador]

I could check as rastuscat can't be arsed but honestly, it is insignificant. Well, at least in New Zealand, Auckland might be a different matter.


With the ACC levy the way it is some people no longer pay rego. This does not increase their crash risk in the slightest. There are certainly a number of fuckwits out there on unregistered bikes that could never get a warrant but again, a minority.


Thanks. Even if the numbers might be small ,here as an example: if there is only 1% stolen bikes on the road but they contribute with 5% of the serious crashes then suddenly we are dealing with numbers that are worth considering. (Note that my numbers here are not factual, I just used these %'s to make a point)

Lets say that from 1,000 fully legal bikes with riders who stay inside speed limits and do not use alcohol/drugs, when they ride it is expected that one has a serious crash per year. That makes it 0.1% of these bikers.

If we then prove that from 10 stolen bikes one bike will have a serious crash this would mean that 10% of stolen bikes will crash badly. But if you do not separate these different categories you would just perhaps accept that 2 bikes out of 1010 has a serious crash making it just below 0.2%.

So why am I going down this track? Well, I do not accept that we should be OK with that the 2% of foreign drivers on our roads cause 7% of the serious accidents.

[Berries]

We are kind of straying off topic because in this crash I don't believe the fact that the driver was from overseas is a major factor. It was your basic SMIDSY. Yes, it will forever be one of the seven percent you quote but I can almost guarantee that some other rider will get bowled this week in the exact same type of crash but it won't be in the headlines for long if it is caused by Joe Commuter on his way to work and not Johnny Foreigner.

Right, stolen bikes. Believe it or not there used to be a specific code in the crash data for stolen vehicle but it was removed a few years ago. Looks like there is nothing now. It wasn't used that often, 45 times between 2000 and 2015 for crashes involving a motorbike (which wasn't necessarily at fault or the stolen vehicle). Not sure it will be of much use to you. That 45 is out of a total 13,753. That is all injury crashes. Serious crashes the number is 22 out of 5,619 so a similar proportion.

[SaferRides]

Accident rates should be based on distance travelled, not the percentage of drivers. I expect tourists drive further each day than the average resident driver, so you would expect them to be involved in more accidents.

Plus the deep south doesn't exactly have the safest roads in the country.

Off topic, but it was interesting to read the research reported in the Herald last week. That identified people staying on a learner's licence and reduced breath testing as the key factors in the increase in the road roll.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[JimO]

Plus the deep south doesn't exactly have the safest roads in the country.


nothing wrong with the bit of road where this crash happened, same with the next turn off to the Boulders, there is a speed restriction and flashing lights triggered by someone leaving the Boulders area put in to slow traffic on SH1 because tourists were pulling out in front of cars heading south/north on SH1,,,,,,hasnt stopped tourists pulling out when they shouldnt though

[MaxPenguin]

I seriously question the comments about nz roads not being very good. They are fine. What do you want? Straight roads with cops everywhere?
The road is just a long grey surface that we ride on. The roads are not to blame.

[Berries]

hasnt stopped tourists pulling out when they shouldnt though
It won't. The idea is that if people follow the signs they will be going slower when that person does pull out giving them more time to react and a lower speed if they do collide. Only one crash since it went in so it has worked so far. It also triggers when someone is turning in to the boulders to try and stop those crashes as well.

Would probably be even better if instead of flashing 70 it flashed the words TOURIST.

Check out the second video on this page - https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/north-otago/dangerous-driving-incidents-filmed




Plus the deep south doesn't exactly have the safest roads in the country.
Nowt wrong with the roads. The 'dangerous' roads are the best ones to ride on.

[Bonez]

I seriously question the comments about nz roads not being very good. They are fine. What do you want? Straight roads with cops everywhere?
The road is just a long grey surface that we ride on. The roads are not to blame.Exactly. Drive/ride to the conditions and that includes the state of the road.
No amount of training can prepar you for all the situation you can come across whilst on the road.

[Conquiztador]

I seriously question the comments about nz roads not being very good. They are fine. What do you want? Straight roads with cops everywhere?
The road is just a long grey surface that we ride on. The roads are not to blame.

As a rider I tend to disagree with you. The surface of the NZ roads are often in poor condition. Holes, cracks, gravel, un-even surface, repaired road now with different type of surface, etc. Yes, we can adjust the speed and do courses to become better att judge the road conditions and what to do. If I was riding a 50cc scooter at 45K/h I would not worry too much. But when you are on a bigger bike at 100K/h and there is traffic all around you the condition of the road you are on suddenly becomes very important. (I never understood how the ones who build brand new roads can not even make them smooth for the first day they are in use!)

[MaxPenguin]

As a rider I tend to disagree with you. The surface of the NZ roads are often in poor condition. Holes, cracks, gravel, un-even surface, repaired road now with different type of surface, etc. Yes, we can adjust the speed and do courses to become better att judge the road conditions and what to do. If I was riding a 50cc scooter at 45K/h I would not worry too much. But when you are on a bigger bike at 100K/h and there is traffic all around you the condition of the road you are on suddenly becomes very important. (I never understood how the ones who build brand new roads can not even make them smooth for the first day they are in use!)

I wonder how much consideration the roadbuilders give to whether a motorcycle will hit a bump just as they are clipping the apex of a corner? My guess is zero or close to it. And fair enough too.

[Conquiztador]

I wonder how much consideration the roadbuilders give to whether a motorcycle will hit a bump just as they are clipping the apex of a corner? My guess is zero or close to it. And fair enough too.

No, not "fair enough too". Their job should be to build good roads that can withstand abuse from drivers and that reduce the chance of an accident happening. But from what I have seen this might not be the case. I wonder if there is ever an inspection of the new road/the upgrade/the repair by the buyer (The government, and as they represent us that is actually us who are the customer...) and they get their fingers smacked for poor workmanship and are told to do it again??

[Bonez]

On the major roads they need a faily humongous peice of machinery to compatact the tarmac and use the general traffic for this purpose. If they didn't the tar will just bubble up when it's hot and become slick. Down our way the local autyhorities aren't too bad wrt road repair. One thing has happened though. There've gone completely overboard wrt signage. One a straight clear peice of road you'll will see a road works sign for a 3mtr length of repair on one lane. Major road works around town are usually done through to night to get them sorted faster.

[eldog]

I wonder how much consideration the roadbuilders give to whether a motorcycle will hit a bump just as they are clipping the apex of a corner? My guess is zero or close to it. And fair enough too.

Zero

Most people building the roads dont ride bikes.
As long as its within spec it's ok.
Some take more care than others, but a lot of it comes down to the operators, more than the machines.
A skilled team of operators on old gear will often outperform new guys on new gear.
However some just tend to take shortcuts.

As to having general public iron out the roads. How much area do you think a car tyre covers over the width of the road. Sure it covers a general area but not across the whole lane.

The road were I live has a couple of piles of loose stone chip from about mid last years job. It didn't need doing but because it was a nice straight bit very low traffic it was an easy bit to do and cheap for the contractor who has to spend so much money for his contract. Not the curvey section down the road when needs major work.

I know some of these people and some ride bikes but you wouldn't think so.

there are also other factors such as underlying geology, springs, water flow, just like building house the foundations and what/where they sit on is important just as much as what they are made of.

Design, cost and availabilty of materials/machinery/location is important to due restriction of $$$

like traffic after Kaikoura, the roads weren’t designed for all of that traffic, my recent sojourn to the SI proved Mainlanders have much better roads than NI ones IMHO. +better views

[FJRider]

... One a straight clear peice of road you'll will see a road works sign for a 3mtr length of repair on one lane.

And often ... only on one side of the road ... :corn:

But ... there were too many complaints of road repair done with no signage left to warn traffic. Signage then is left ... and still people complain. Go figure ... :shifty:

The signs left by contractors have to be as per legal specified requirements ... otherwise somebodies ass (at management level) will be kicked ... :laugh:

At Road crew level ... for those responsible for setting up the signs ... it's almost a bye bye job situation ... :eek:

[Bonez]

Sat through a traffic control course at one time. It ran for a week and you'd be surprised what is actaully involved. Distance for cones. signage, etc.
It's more involved than most here probably realise. It's not just bloke with a stop/go sign. Like any good course it shows were to find the correct regs/references. And as with any good instructor you are given their details if you have any questions once the course is finished.

[merv]

Just to add a thought to this.

People who have learnt to drive in a left hand drive car, and drive on the right side of the road, are used to doing right turns without have to give way to traffic coming towards them. I have had experience riding passenger in a car with a European who more than once just turned right, when oncoming traffic was present, even though driving correctly on the left side of the road. One of these occasions resulted in the on-coming car having its horn tooted loudly.

Remember this nasty crash out of Hamilton too? https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/67260801/three-americans-killed-in-violent-waikato-collision

The Americans just right turned in front of a truck. This is not simply a SMIDSY I reckon, because I think they see but, but don't react to the need to stop and stay stopped and not turn.

[pritch]

Drink driving, driving while high and going over the speed limit are what is considered the main issues currently. Huge amount of man hours and resources are poured in to these three. Is it working? Many would say no when looking at the statistics.

Not too many I hope. The road toll is half what it used to be. The government's 'behaviour modification' programme was effective.

[pritch]

I seriously question the comments about nz roads not being very good. They are fine. What do you want? Straight roads with cops everywhere?
The road is just a long grey surface that we ride on. The roads are not to blame.

Yeah I was surprised to see the comment about South Island roads not being very good. In my experience they're generally better than North Island roads.

[Bonez]

Seems to be the usual generalization that some NZ roads are bad therefore all NZ roads are bad. This is complete and utter bull shit. Even gravel roads seem to be kept in reasonable condition. When freshly graded though they can be a PITA but one should drive/ride at a suitable pace so an incident doesn't occur. In other words drive/ride to the conditions......

[FJRider]

Yeah I was surprised to see the comment about South Island roads not being very good. In my experience they're generally better than North Island roads.

It's the coarse chip seal that's not liked (very hard on tires). Plus all those hills and winding roads over the mountains and West coast roads. It's just impossible to use cruise control ... :blank:

[FJRider]

Not too many I hope. The road toll is half what it used to be. The government's 'behaviour modification' programme was effective.

Plus three or four times the amount of traffic on the road as well. Even a static road toll would show the policy is (sort of) working. But the usual quota of idiots driving ... don't seem to be influenced by any of Darwin's theories ... :lol:

[FJRider]

... but I can almost guarantee that some other rider will get bowled this week in the exact same type of crash but it won't be in the headlines for long if it is caused by Joe Commuter on his way to work and not Johnny Foreigner.

the actual percentage of tourist drivers being Involved ... as opposed to being "At fault" is actually very low. Low single figures actually. The actual scourge on NZ roads are New Zealander's born and bred (likely some inbreeding though).


Right, stolen bikes ...

They used to make up a large portion of the motorcycle single vehicle accident stat's ...

[toycollector10]

I've done quite a few 4-day tours of South Island (East Coast, West Coast and cover the whole Island) with the group I'm in. We always go in early November and for some reason the roads are uncluttered at that time and we hardly see any campervans. At least, that's MY impression. Another observation (I live in Christchurch) is that there is a certain category of overseas visitor driving here that are completely out of their depth behind the wheel. Another observation is that you could call me a racist but that's just a standard liberal starting point in any conversation like this and completely untrue so just don't.

[pritch]

It's the coarse chip seal that's not liked (very hard on tires). Plus all those hills and winding roads over the mountains and West coast roads. It's just impossible to use cruise control ... :blank:

True, good tyres are a must at the start of a SI tour.

The Lewis Pass and SH6 are magic, but there is magic in the NI too: East Cape and the Waioeka Gorge f'rinstance, but the state of the those roads can't be compared to South Island roads. I never saw anything in the SI to compare to the state of the Gentle Annie, Hastings to Taihape. Once when I rode that the surface was so broken up in places it appeared as if there had been a major earthquake. If there had actually been an earthquake they're forgiven.

Not much scope for cruise control on any of those either.

Funny thing though, the excuse given for the roads around East Cape is that there's a lot of road and only a small population to pay for upkeep. I'd have thought that situation would have applied to an even greater extent in the South Island?

[FJRider]

True, good tyres are a must at the start of a SI tour.

The Lewis Pass and SH6 are magic, but there is magic in the NI too: East Cape and the Waioeka Gorge f'rinstance, but the state of the those roads can't be compared to South Island roads. I never saw anything in the SI to compare to the state of the Gentle Annie, Hastings to Taihape. Once when I rode that the surface was so broken up in places it appeared as if there had been a major earthquake. If there had actually been an earthquake they're forgiven.

Not much scope for cruise control on any of those either.

Funny thing though, the excuse given for the roads around East Cape is that there's a lot of road and only a small population to pay for upkeep. I'd have thought that situation would have applied to an even greater extent in the South Island?

The coarse chip seal is good, even in/after heavy rain which NZ alpine and (west coast) coastal areas are renown for. It beats asphalt hands down in similar weather anywhere.

The Lewis got beaten up quite a bit post Kaikoura quake's ... and although the east coast highway one reopened ... the Lewis needs a lot of work to be done to it in quite a few places. The heavy class trucks were (and still) allowed to use it, even though it wasn't up to that grade to take the weights and sheer volume of traffic. If you want magic ... do the Buller Gorge full length (either direction) at night ... with a full moon ... and with about 10 or more other riders. You'll remember it forever.

[FJRider]

... Another observation (I live in Christchurch) is that there is a certain category of overseas visitor driving here that are completely out of their depth behind the wheel. Another observation is that you could call me a racist but that's just a standard liberal starting point in any conversation like this and completely untrue so just don't.

The terrain in NZ varies so much in short distances, it is totally different to BIG (as in HUGE) city driving conditions ... or multi-lane motorway style roads many of our visitors are used to. Many from large cities have never driven over 80 km/hr EVER. It's not their fault ... if fault is to be apportioned ... but they are here ... driving (for want of a more suitable word) on our roads. AND ... spending money.

I wonder how most (expert) kiwi drivers would handle navigating through Tokyo or LA on their motorway systems ... ???

As an aside ... the use of cell phones (for ANY purpose) is Illegal. Yet .. Dash mounted GPS systems (visible to the driver and able to be operated or adjusted by the driver) is perfectly legal. And is fitted to most rental vehicles as a (legal) on request option.

[FJRider]

Seems to be the usual generalization that some NZ roads are bad therefore all NZ roads are bad. This is complete and utter bull shit. Even gravel roads seem to be kept in reasonable condition. When freshly graded though they can be a PITA but one should drive/ride at a suitable pace so an incident doesn't occur. In other words drive/ride to the conditions......

I've been through Danseys Pass (in a ute) before the grader ... Naseby to Duntroon took one and a half hours. Another time (in the same ute) not long after it was graded ... two and a quarter hours.

Ride/Drive to the actual conditions of a road ... not how you last remembered that piece of road was. It may have changed a bit.

[Trade_nancy]

Yeah I was surprised to see the comment about South Island roads not being very good. In my experience they're generally better than North Island roads.

I agree with that...found Southern roads - in particular highways...superior to North Island. Also less traffic on a lot of them.

[Laava]

Followed 2 large rental camper vans off the big single lane bridge at Kaeo today. There is a long straight ahead of you as you come off, the front van moved into the RH lane and the rear one moved into the left. There was an oncoming car just appearing at the end of the straight. I overtook the camper in front of me and sat in the front guys mirror flashing my lights until he moved to the left. He was vigorously facepalming himself as I went past! Lols! Bet he felt stupid!

[Trade_nancy]

Followed 2 large rental camper vans off the big single lane bridge at Kaeo today. There is a long straight ahead of you as you come off, the front van moved into the RH lane and the rear one moved into the left. There was an oncoming car just appearing at the end of the straight. I overtook the camper in front of me and sat in the front guys mirror flashing my lights until he moved to the left. He was vigorously facepalming himself as I went past! Lols! Bet he felt stupid!

It happens. I did the wrong side trick on my first encounter on USA roads in 2016 in San Francisco city. Came ou tof city OK..fully focused on RIGHT side RIGHT side....till we reached the freeway onramp interection - lights controlled. Went over to LHS until oncoming woke me up and wife screamed. Braked; reversed, went right. Never went worng again.

[pete376403]

It happens. I did the wrong side trick on my first encounter on USA roads in 2016 in San Francisco city. Came ou tof city OK..fully focused on RIGHT side RIGHT side....till we reached the freeway onramp interection - lights controlled. Went over to LHS until oncoming woke me up and wife screamed. Braked; reversed, went right. Never went worng again.

Seems you only need to do it once - I was in Atlanta, turned left into the oncoming traffic. Turned hard left again into a MacDonalds carpark. Blew a tyre going over the kerb but was preferable to clogging up truck radiator. Anyway, rental car, Hertz just gave me another car. (first one was nice Buick LeSabre with about 30 miles on the clock, second one a was a Ford thing)

[FJRider]

... If you turn up in NZ with an overseas driving license and you rent a vehicle you will need to buy an insurance that will provide funds for a family that lost a loved one or he/she ended up in hospital as result of your driving.

Google ACC. That's what it is there for. The only insurance they require is for the rental. As it should be. Less than 3% of fatal's on NZ roads involve overseas visitors. The other 97% are New Zealander's ... The REAL killers on New Zealand roads. Time to toughen up on THEM ... :doh:

[FJRider]

I agree with that...found Southern roads - in particular highways...superior to North Island. Also less traffic on a lot of them.

I haven't found a reason to test that theory. I haven't ridden north of the ditch since the 21st Cold Kiwi ... roads are roads ... and I've ridden most of them.

Every spin of the wheels is another 6 feet closer to wherever I'm going ... ;)

[onearmedbandit]

I wonder how most (expert) kiwi drivers would handle navigating through Tokyo or LA on their motorway systems ... ???



I've driven in Nagoya and LA, and at first it can be almost overwhelming. It didn't take very long to get to grips for me though, I don't consider myself an 'expert' driver but one that does try to constantly remain aware of everything around me (thanks dad for making me do Defensive Driving back in '90 when I got my license as know it all 15yr old). But without local knowledge it is very easy to end up in the incorrect lane at intersections etc and cause a spot of bother.

[FJRider]

I've driven in Nagoya and LA, and at first it can be almost overwhelming. It didn't take very long to get to grips for me though, I don't consider myself an 'expert' driver but one that does try to constantly remain aware of everything around me (thanks dad for making me do Defensive Driving back in '90 when I got my license as know it all 15yr old). But without local knowledge it is very easy to end up in the incorrect lane at intersections etc and cause a spot of bother.

Whilst in the NZ Army I got a 2 year posting to Singapore. I was an army driver by trade ... so almost a sense of dread seeing the city for the first time. A lot different to Christchurch rush hours ... :wacko:

It didn't take long before it was normal and no issues ... (not so for my parents when they visited)

[rastuscat]

Google ACC. That's what it is there for. The only insurance they require is for the rental. As it should be. Less than 3% of fatal's on NZ roads involve overseas visitors. The other 97% are New Zealander's ... The REAL killers on New Zealand roads. Time to toughen up on THEM ... :doh:

I've been banging that drum for several years. It's just easier to blame tourists than to change ourselves.

[JimO]

I've been banging that drum for several years. It's just easier to blame tourists than to change ourselves. i did a couple of thousand ks around Central Otago, Waitaki Valley, Dn to ChCh over xmas ALL the bad driving i saw was tourists of a certain ethnicity driving white Toyota Corolla's/white Toyota Highlander's its easy to blame them because they drive badly and stand out

[rastuscat]

i did a couple of thousand ks around Central Otago, Waitaki Valley, Dn to ChCh over xmas ALL the bad driving i saw was tourists of a certain ethnicity driving white Toyota Corolla's/white Toyota Highlander's its easy to blame them because they drive badly and stand out

Certainly there are areas of NZ and times of the year when tourists are a greater proportion of the driving population.

But it doesn't take much googling to see that the vast majority of our DSI (deaths and serious injuries) are caused by people who live here.

The campaign against tourists drivers is a classic case of projection, where we project blame for something onto an identifiable third party.

It's normal to do that. Trouble is, when we do that, we also lose the ability to solve the problem.

For example, when I blame my brakes for having locked the front wheel, I'm saying that there isn't anything I can do about it, as it wasn't my fault.

The psychology of cultural behaviour is fascinating.

[sidecar bob]

i did a couple of thousand ks around Central Otago, Waitaki Valley, Dn to ChCh over xmas ALL the bad driving i saw was tourists of a certain ethnicity driving white Toyota Corolla's/white Toyota Highlander's its easy to blame them because they drive badly and stand out
The white Toyota Highlander is a red flag to me when driving or riding.

[Bonez]

In which areas are these fatal crashes happening? Surely it would be more cost effective to target the areas where most of the incidents occure.

For example there'd be less likely a chance of an incident on the Takapua Planes as opposed to the Auckland motorway.

People keep saying the number of incidents has reduced from former years but is that actually true? Often a percentage given. If the amount of driver/riders on our roads has increased the same amount of crashes in the past with less traffic will be a greater percentage than the same amount of crashes with a substantually greater amount of road user.

Anyway I'm off for a ride.

[TheDemonLord]

Certainly there are areas of NZ and times of the year when tourists are a greater proportion of the driving population.

But it doesn't take much googling to see that the vast majority of our DSI (deaths and serious injuries) are caused by people who live here.

The campaign against tourists drivers is a classic case of projection, where we project blame for something onto an identifiable third party.

It's normal to do that. Trouble is, when we do that, we also lose the ability to solve the problem.

For example, when I blame my brakes for having locked the front wheel, I'm saying that there isn't anything I can do about it, as it wasn't my fault.

The psychology of cultural behaviour is fascinating.

I'm not disagreeing with the statement of 'Those who are pure shall cast the first stone', however there is also a statement that when compared to the regular population, Tourists (per capita) are over-represented in Crashes.

Both statements are correct (to a point) and both represent valid problems that need solutions.

The tourist one I feel is partly due to once out of any major city, the only option to get around NZ is to drive, there's no Trains, no real public transport etc. which forces people who would likely not drive, to drive.

[rastuscat]

Anyway I'm off for a ride.

I tried to find a way to argue with this, but I've given up.

[Bonez]

I tried to find a way to argue with this, but I've given up.Nice wee tooddle. Nice thing about Palmy is it's less than 10 minutes ride to some premium back roads with bugger all traffic.

[rastuscat]

Nice thing about Palmy........

Okay, so there is something good about it.

[Bonez]

Okay, so there is something good about it.Now cut that out you you blinken troll or I will cry:innocent:

[rastuscat]

Now cut that out you you blinken troll or I will cry:innocent:

Kinda feel like that's my first ever troll. Apart from the troll bikes and troll cars I've used.

[Bonez]

Kinda feel like that's my first ever troll. Apart from the troll bikes and troll cars I've used.:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[nzspokes]

I'm not disagreeing with the statement of 'Those who are pure shall cast the first stone', however there is also a statement that when compared to the regular population, Tourists (per capita) are over-represented in Crashes.

Both statements are correct (to a point) and both represent valid problems that need solutions.

The tourist one I feel is partly due to once out of any major city, the only option to get around NZ is to drive, there's no Trains, no real public transport etc. which forces people who would likely not drive, to drive.

My belief is town drivers struggle in country conditions. Have seen it many times.

We for the most part cant change what tourists do. But we can change what we do.

Get some training.

[TheDemonLord]

My belief is town drivers struggle in country conditions. Have seen it many times.

We for the most part cant change what tourists do. But we can change what we do.

Get some training.

I don't disagree with most of that.

The flipside is also true - Country drivers struggle with Motorway conditions. I think the fairest statement is to say that All Drivers struggle in unfamiliar conditions.

The only thing I take (slight) umbrage with is that we can't change what tourists do.

I think the crux of frustration from certain sectors is that:

1: We haven't really tried to change what tourists do and so don't know if we can or not.
2: There's an unwillingness to discuss honestly the problem of Tourist drivers.

As an example of the latter - Rastus (quite rightly) points out that 90% of Accidents are home-grown with no Tourists required, however this is an appeal to the bigger problems fallacy (of sorts), He's not wrong in his statement and since there's a question of effort vs reward, focusing all your effort on 90% of the problem is absolutely a pragmatic way to go. The frustration I think is that people see that and reason 'What if we spent 10% of effort on the 10% of the problem' - with various solutions ranging from the impractical to the borderline discriminatory.

TL;DR - Both sides of this discussion have big kernels of truth in them, but whilst we treat the problem as an either/or - the other side is going to get louder and louder from being ignored.

[Ulsterkiwi]

No, not "fair enough too". Their job should be to build good roads that can withstand abuse from drivers and that reduce the chance of an accident happening. But from what I have seen this might not be the case. I wonder if there is ever an inspection of the new road/the upgrade/the repair by the buyer (The government, and as they represent us that is actually us who are the customer...) and they get their fingers smacked for poor workmanship and are told to do it again??

it would appear that the more expensive the project/road, the less likely such an inspection is to happen. I present to the court the Kapiti Expressway. I think it was open about 8 or 9 weeks when they started ripping it up. 3 years later its still a traffic cone festival.

[tigertim20]

I've been banging that drum for several years. It's just easier to blame tourists than to change ourselves.


i did a couple of thousand ks around Central Otago, Waitaki Valley, Dn to ChCh over xmas ALL the bad driving i saw was tourists of a certain ethnicity driving white Toyota Corolla's/white Toyota Highlander's its easy to blame them because they drive badly and stand out

Are you familiar with confirmation bias?

I see lots is asians drive like cunts.

lots of cops who dont have a fuckin clue how to correctly indicate at roundabouts

loads on white women who struggle with basic give way rules

middle class blokes in their rangers / BMWs etc who forget what an indicator does.

The ones that stick in our mind are the ones that meet whatever prejudice we are predisposed to.

[FJRider]

it would appear that the more expensive the project/road, the less likely such an inspection is to happen. I present to the court the Kapiti Expressway. I think it was open about 8 or 9 weeks when they started ripping it up. 3 years later its still a traffic cone festival.

I'll avoid it for a few more years then ... ;)

[rastuscat]

Are you familiar with confirmation bias?

I see lots is asians drive like cunts.

lots of cops who dont have a fuckin clue how to correctly indicate at roundabouts

loads on white women who struggle with basic give way rules

middle class blokes in their rangers / BMWs etc who forget what an indicator does.

The ones that stick in our mind are the ones that meet whatever prejudice we are predisposed to.

Yes, confirmation bias grips us all. Including those who only notice the middle class blokes in their rangers / BMWs etc who forget what an indicator does., but who doesn't notice the other 75% of people who do exactly the same thing.

[roogazza]

Just come home after a few days driving north. Must say the truckies were brilliant everywhere we went ,moving over and letting people thru .
Campervans ..... not so much, slow, 70/80 and 90kph ! they weren't moving over and were quite happy to hold up lines of traffic!
Of course passing lanes are getting fewer and fewer these days.
Makes driving less enjoyable and using cruise control a pain in the arse when trying to maintain road speed. :shifty:

[Bonez]

Just come home after a few days driving north. Must say the truckies were brilliant everywhere we went ,moving over and letting people thru .
Campervans ..... not so much, slow, 70/80 and 90kph ! they weren't moving over and were quite happy to hold up lines of traffic!
Of course passing lanes are getting fewer and fewer these days.
Makes driving less enjoyable and using cruise control a pain in the arse when trying to maintain road speed. :shifty:Passing lanes have increased on main routes in our part of the woods plus the Wairapa and Central Hawkes Bay. Yeah generally truckies are pretty good at pulling left ,when they can, if they see a motorcycle healamp in their mirrors. I generally give them a wave or toot of appriciation when I pass them. Actually recently, I've had 6 years off riding, I've found most motorist do. Of course there is the odd prick who takes all the road. Also noticed the general traffic on the open road is slower all around. Staying around that 100-105kph mark. The ones that travel a 'bit"<_< above the speed limit are handy opportunity to lock in behind at about 100 yards and follow their example. Also my spidey sences have been honed to detect orange police cars. No radar detector required. A lone van, with blacked out windows. out in the middle of knowwhere is useally a camera van.


Common sence goes a long way for safe driving/riding.

[roogazza]

Passing lanes have increased on main routes in our part of the woods plus the Wairapa and Central Hawkes Bay. Yeah generally truckies are pretty good at pulling left ,when they can, if the see a motorcycle healamp in their mirrors. I generally give them a wave of appriciation when I pass them. Actually recently, I've had 6 years off riding, I've found most motorist do. Of course there is the odd prick who takes all the road. Also noticed the general traffic on the open road is slower all around. Staying around that 100-105kph mark. The ones that travel a 'bit"<_< above the speed limit are handy oppertunaty to lock in behind at about 100 yards and follow their example. Also my spidey sences have been honed to detect orange police cars. No radar detector required. A lone van, with blacked out windows. out in the middle of knowwhere is useally a camera van.

We were in our Falcooon and yes always have the Radar safety device operating ! On the bike I have no problems whatsoever ! I just blow by any chicanes.
(I don't follow anyone on the bike if I can help it.)
Of course when travelling with the War Department I have a built in restrictor anyway!!! :msn-wink:

[Bonez]

We were in our Falcooon and yes always have the Radar safety device operating ! On the bike I have no problems whatsoever ! I just blow by any chicanes.
(I don't follow anyone on the bike if I can help it.)
Of course when travelling with the War Department I have a built in restrictor anyway!!! :msn-wink:I'll repeat for those that missed it. Common sence goes a long way for safe driving/riding.

[rastuscat]

I'll repeat for those that missed it. Common sence goes a long way for safe driving/riding.

It,ll never catch on.

[JimO]

Are you familiar with confirmation bias?

I see lots is asians drive like cunts.

lots of cops who dont have a fuckin clue how to correctly indicate at roundabouts

loads on white women who struggle with basic give way rules

middle class blokes in their rangers / BMWs etc who forget what an indicator does.

The ones that stick in our mind are the ones that meet whatever prejudice we are predisposed to.
see how many white rental cars make it to the news following a fatal

[FJRider]

Are you familiar with confirmation bias?

I see lots is asians drive like cunts.

lots of cops who dont have a fuckin clue how to correctly indicate at roundabouts

loads on white women who struggle with basic give way rules

middle class blokes in their rangers / BMWs etc who forget what an indicator does.

The ones that stick in our mind are the ones that meet whatever prejudice we are predisposed to.

The thing about prejudice is ... it is also about hate. If you start hating on the road ... the anger there corrupts your thinking. if you get angry ... then your rational thinking is gone. Stupid ideas can seem like a good idea ... road rage does that.

After years of being paid to drive on the roads ... I pretty much take things as they come. Being paid by the hour ... I was seldom in a rush. Major issues ring plod. Minor issues just back off ... or pass if that wont actually be an issue in itself.

The driving reg's say take regular breaks ... and I did. That lets issues get well ahead ... or ... you get ahead of the issue.

I've never had any drive ruined by a good cup of coffee. Or any ride for that matter.

I have been late though. But I was still alive ... and well paid .. :shifty:

[FJRider]

It,ll never catch on.

It's incorrectly named ... Common sense isn't that common at all ... :calm:

[Bonez]

It's incorrectly named ... Common sense isn't that common at all ... :calm:Unfortunately not. Courtesy(I'll skip the common this time) goes a long way too. Especially around town.

[eldog]

And sense is a rare commodity :corn:

[Bonez]

see how many white rental cars make it to the news following a fatalMust be a Southern thing.

[scumdog]

What would putting her in jail for a month achieve?

Nothing.

A ten year plus mandatory sentence would send a ripple through the tourist ranks and MAYBE get them to sharpen up their driving style.

Well maybe not....

[scumdog]

Google ACC. That's what it is there for. The only insurance they require is for the rental. As it should be. Less than 3% of fatal's on NZ roads involve overseas visitors. The other 97% are New Zealander's ... The REAL killers on New Zealand roads. Time to toughen up on THEM ... :doh:

"If you want to kill somebody with minimal sentence in NZ - do it on our roads" So I was told at a training day.

And sadly it's right:weep:

[BMWST?]

Is part of the problem with tourists that they are here for recreation therefore their mindset while driving is the same?
Same with motorcyclists? most are using the road for recreational needs, so not taking the roads as seriously as they should?

Not relating this to the specific Moeraki incident as the discussion has moved on from that now.

thats the problem with a good percentage of the drivers on the road ..they arent "engaged".Its an interlude between work and home,or home and the picnice or...between text message.

[BMWST?]

That's the lovely thing about numbers. You can use them any way you want.

I like these ones. Most crashes in NZ are caused by locals. Most are caused by Mr and Mrs Average.

Who caused them doesn't mean much, as cause is established post-crash. I want to anticipate crashes, so I can avoid having them.

Prevention is better than cure.
you are much more likely to anticipate having a crash your self if you know hat caused the last one

[FJRider]

you are much more likely to anticipate having a crash your self if you know hat caused the last one

What caused the last one ??? :scratch: If all crashes are caused by the same thing ... life would be so much more predictable.

The issue of concern is not what the issue is ... but who caused the issue that started things turning to shit.


I often find when the person that say's "It wasn't MY fault" the loudest ... it usually IS ... :blank:

[Bonez]

What caused the last one ??? :scratch: If all crashes are caused by the same thing ... life would be so much more predictable.

The issue of concern is not what the issue is ... but who caused the issue that started things turning to shit.

And that can be be quite a number of things including bull shit. Came across a small herd of young bullocks on the road on yesterdays wee jaunt.

[FJRider]

And that can be be quite a number of things including bull shit. Came across a small herd of young bullocks on the road on yesterdays wee jaunt.

Most of the best motorcycling roads in NZ are in rural areas (funny that). At some stage you will find stock (Wild and domesticated) of all shapes and sizes on or very near the road. Expect it and look out for it. I've had a few near misses and a few hits ... the pucker effect only works so much. ... :blank:

[FJRider]

Nothing.

A ten year plus mandatory sentence would send a ripple through the tourist ranks and MAYBE get them to sharpen up their driving style.

Well maybe not....

The proverbial phrase ... "It wont happen to me" is multi lingual ... :cool:

[Bonez]

Most of the best motorcycling roads in NZ are in rural areas (funny that). At some stage you will find stock (Wild and domesticated) of all shapes and sizes on or very near the road. Expect it and look out for it. I've had a few near misses and a few hits ... the pucker effect only works so much. ... :blank:Indeed. Came across sheep beong herded as well yesterday, Just pulled right on to the grass verge and quietly toodled past them. Graeme the guy from Nelson I met yesterday in Havelock North said NZ is great for motorcycling except for the Canturbary Plains which are boring as hell.:innocent:

[FJRider]

Indeed. Came across sheep beong herded as well yesterday, Just pulled right on to the grass verge and quietly toodled past them. Graeme the guy from Nelson I met yesterday in Havelock North said NZ is great for motorcycling except for the Canturbary Plains which are boring as hell.:innocent:

I've always gone to great trouble to avoid the Canterbury Plains. If time allows ...

[pritch]

Read somewhere that drivers who have had a particular type of accident are statistically more likely to have another similar accident. They think they are good drivers, see no need to improve, so their faults persist.

I guess our job is to keep out of their way?

[SaferRides]

I was on a group ride around Coromandel at the weekend, and was very impressed with how many tourists (late models Corollas etc.) pulled off when they could to let us pass. Not a single ute did the same. :)

I was very careful riding past lookouts.

[caseye]

I was on a group ride around Coromandel at the weekend, and was very impressed with how many tourists (late models Corollas etc.) pulled off when they could to let us pass. Not a single ute did the same. :)

I was very careful riding past lookouts.

Good news that is, you out tomorrow night?
SATNR ride.
:beer::beer:

[FJRider]

The tourist one I feel is partly due to once out of any major city, the only option to get around NZ is to drive, there's no Trains, no real public transport etc. which forces people who would likely not drive, to drive.

Bullshit, They want to see and experience the "Real New Zealand" and be in control of their own chosen transportation. And I don't blame them one bit. That is exactly how I like to travel. Go where I want and stop where I want. People are not "Forced" to do anything. There are plenty of scheduled and organised Bus tours ... and Scenic rail trips in the North and South Island ... running all year round. And the "Over 60's" love them ...

To hire a rental you need a valid drivers license. All of them driving around our country spreading their GST into OUR government coffer's ... just so WE don't have to pay more ourselves.

[JimO]

To hire a rental you need a valid drivers license. All of them driving around our country spreading their GST into OUR government coffer's ... just so WE don't have to pay more ourselves.
a valid chinese licence isnt the same as a valid NZ licence

[Bonez]

a valid chinese licence isnt the same as a valid NZ licenceThat is correct. You don't have to give the testing officer a bribe to get one.

[FJRider]

a valid chinese licence isnt the same as a valid NZ licence

Aside from the fact that the Chinese "Sector" may be a little depleted nowadays due to a virus ... their licenses are still legal in NZ. Also ... shitty drivers or not ... they don't often get involved in anywhere near as many fatal accidents as KIWI drivers ... <_<

And seeing how some Kiwi drivers "Perform" on the NZ roads ... I think a few Kiwi testers were bribed too ... <_<

[TheDemonLord]

Bullshit, They want to see and experience the "Real New Zealand" and be in control of their own chosen transportation. And I don't blame them one bit. That is exactly how I like to travel. Go where I want and stop where I want. People are not "Forced" to do anything. There are plenty of scheduled and organised Bus tours ... and Scenic rail trips in the North and South Island ... running all year round. And the "Over 60's" love them ...

To hire a rental you need a valid drivers license. All of them driving around our country spreading their GST into OUR government coffer's ... just so WE don't have to pay more ourselves.

Disagree.

I have a lot of Ex-Pat british friends, Korean friends etc. all who lived in Major cities - Most of them didn't own a Car, since they used Public Transport for everything.

Does Auckland have a rail network like the Underground or the Paris Métro? Are there regular scheduled passengers services to all the major cities? Once in the Major cities is there a reliable means of getting round?

Wellington comes pretty close, but even then, it's a bit shit.

[Burnie]

A couple of summers ago, we had a young Indian fella working with us during the university holidays. He didn't have a car license, however needed to get one to travel to work. He rang his Dad in India and presently there was an Indian drivers license in the mail for him. Enabled him to drive for 6 months, I believe, on an international licence. F#@ked up system allowing this to happen. Eventually he did get a NZ learners licence.

[FJRider]

Disagree.

I have a lot of Ex-Pat british friends, Korean friends etc. all who lived in Major cities - Most of them didn't own a Car, since they used Public Transport for everything.

Does Auckland have a rail network like the Underground or the Paris Métro? Are there regular scheduled passengers services to all the major cities? Once in the Major cities is there a reliable means of getting round?

Wellington comes pretty close, but even then, it's a bit shit.

You have friends ... ??? Who knew ... :calm:

Overseas tourists do no come here to see the pathetic Dorkland rail system. Most just leave Dorkland hours after arriving at the airport. Sometimes within minutes. The "Major cities" they want to see are Rotovegas and Queenstown. If you need to ask about scheduled services available ... you need to get out more ... ;)

As I said ... those (most) that visit NZ do have a valid drivers license ... and are fully entitled to use it. And most do. They don't come here for the cities. They come for the wide open spaces and deserted coastlines ... and in their (tens of) thousands ... a month ... how many do you even notice .. ?? ;) It was estimated that on NZ roads each day ... their can be 30,000 rental vehicles ... again ... how many did you notice ..??

I used to be paid to drive on most of the roads of nz ... and saw plenty of bad driving. I started blaming the visitors. Some turned out to be a mum and five kids (not buckled in) and talking on a cell phone and slapping the kids. If you think you've seen some stupid shit on the roads ... drive for a living ... 'cause you ain't seen nothing yet ... :lol:

[TheDemonLord]

You have friends ... ??? Who knew ... :calm:

Overseas tourists do no come here to see the pathetic Dorkland rail system. Most just leave Dorkland hours after arriving at the airport. Sometimes within minutes. The "Major cities" they want to see are Rotovegas and Queenstown. If you need to ask about scheduled services available ... you need to get out more ... ;)

Right.

Think about that for a moment.

In every other major airport that I've visited - I get off the plane, I can get on a Train and go to my preferred destination. Sometimes I might even have to take an Airport shuttle bus for free to go from the Airport to the Train Station.

There's a single Train service listed, Auckland to Hamilton and it runs 3 times a week. (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02kC9FmrYnTrhS89LIzZYzsB1niJA%3A1583100 861610&ei=vTNcXv70JI3qz7sPnpaIyAg&q=auckland+aiport+to+rotorua+train&oq=auckland+aiport+to+rotorua+train&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i304i39.44577.45445..45896...0.2..0.240.40 7.0j1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71j0i22i30.fHYMV5SJgU8&ved=0ahUKEwi-x_-jpvrnAhUN9XMBHR4LAokQ4dUDCAo&uact=5)

So, either I have to book my Flight to coincide with said train (which may or may not be convenient or even possible), I get an Intercity Bus (which takes over double the time when driven by Car) or Drive.

And that's for a big tourist destination - what if I want to go to Matamata and visit Hobbiton? I know there's a Train line that runs right through Matamata - is there a Train Service? Well if I go to Rail New Zealand - it gives multiple options.... For Bus Services!

Literally the only option to get about in NZ with any reliability or promptness is to drive. And as you say, this happens within Minutes - for people whose familiarity with roads is to have 2 lane, divided highways that are relatively straight joining the major population centres. Except now you want them to drive at Motorway speeds on a single lane, non-divided highway that in places has 25 Kph hairpins.

[FJRider]

In every other major airport that I've visited ...

Go back there ... I'm sure they miss you ... <_<



And that's for a big tourist destination ...

Hamilton ... a major tourist destination .. ??? :rolleyes:


Literally the only option to get about in NZ with any reliability or promptness is to drive. And as you say, this happens within Minutes - for people whose familiarity with roads is to have 2 lane, divided highways that are relatively straight joining the major population centres. Except now you want them to drive at Motorway speeds on a single lane, non-divided highway that in places has 25 Kph hairpins.

There are plenty of Kiwi drivers on our roads that are out of their depth (driving wise) on anything other than quiet rural back roads.

You really have no fucking idea where all those visitors live ... what sort of roads they all are used to driving on ... or even how good a driver they all are. Your generalization just makes you look stupid.

What YOU see on our roads every day ... is a VERY small (as in tiny) percentage of the overseas visitors that are driving on our unfamiliar (to them) road system on ANY given day.

After 20 years of living / driving in Central Otago ... in the Queenstown Wanaka area ... very few (overseas visitors) caused any real issues. Accidents involving visitors were usually caused by Kiwi's (often locals) with THEIR stupid driving ... <_<

Current statistics show ... overseas visitors are involved in about 5% of accidents nationwide. And involved in about 3% of fatal accidents. In either group ... this does not necessarily mean they were at fault.

[TheDemonLord]

Hamilton ... a major tourist destination .. ??? :rolleyes:

You clearly didn't click on the link, did you...

Or you spectacularly missed the point...



There are plenty of Kiwi drivers on our roads that are out of their depth (driving wise) on anything other than quiet rural back roads.

I'm not sure why you raise this as a point, considering that I've previously acknowledged it and am not arguing against it.



You really have no fucking idea where all those visitors live ... what sort of roads they all are used to driving on ... or even how good a driver they all are. Your generalization just makes you look stupid.

Except we do, you see, everyone that comes into the country has this thing called a passport, which with very high degree of accuracy tells us where they are from. From there, we can use that data to determine the type of road conditions they will be used to.

Who is making Whom look stupid?



What YOU see on our roads every day ... is a VERY small (as in tiny) percentage of the overseas visitors that are driving on our unfamiliar (to them) road system on ANY given day.

After 20 years of living / driving in Central Otago ... in the Queenstown Wanaka area ... very few (overseas visitors) caused any real issues. Accidents involving visitors were usually caused by Kiwi's (often locals) with THEIR stupid driving ... <_<

Current statistics show ... overseas visitors are involved in about 5% of accidents nationwide. And involved in about 3% of fatal accidents. In either group ... this does not necessarily mean they were at fault.

And? You say that like it's an argument against my position. I've agreed that Kiwis make up the majority of accidents. The point is that tourist drives are also over-represented in crash stats which is an issue that has had no action.

Now, I'm not saying that any of the proposed solutions would be workable, but I am saying that if people are telling you there is a problem and you either ignore it or worse tell them it's not a problem - you don't make the situation any better. In fact, that is the perfect breeding ground for resentment.

My point that I was making in that post above was that NZs laughable infrastructure is a factor in forcing tourists to drive since there is no viable alternative. And should we have a functioning rail network a percentage of those visitors who have to drive (but perhaps ought not to) wouldn't- thus alleviating the problem.

[Jeeper]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/119969015/familys-near-miss-in-otago-recorded-on-dash-cam

Another example of driver not engaging brain before turning.

[FJRider]

You clearly didn't click on the link, did you...

You got me ... I didn't ... :bleh:


I'm not sure why you raise this as a point, considering that I've previously acknowledged it and am not arguing against it.

About the first thing you've posted that IS correct ...:bleh:


Except we do, you see, everyone that comes into the country has this thing called a passport, which with very high degree of accuracy tells us where they are from. From there, we can use that data to determine the type of road conditions they will be used to.

We ... ??? Do you see passports ??? do the passports tell you what type roads they have experience driving on .. ??? How good a driver they are and how many years of driving experience they've had .. ?? Do they tell you what roads they intend to travel on in NZ .. ??

Their passport is attributed to a Country, naming a person. It may list a place of birth. It may list places they have visited (Some countries do not stamp passports)


Who is making Whom look stupid?

Howdy stupid ... <_<


And? You say that like it's an argument against my position. I've agreed that Kiwis make up the majority of accidents. The point is that tourist drives are also over-represented in crash stats which is an issue that has huted ad no action.

My point of view is ... (almost) everybody is giving the overseas visitors a hard time for shitty driving, even to the point of being racist about it. Naming groups that they believe are the issue AS A NATIONAL GROUP. Most just say "Another bloody overseas driver killing kiwi's ... send them all home" or similar comment ... and ignore the fact that Kiwi's are killing more kiwis than the visitors. All hyped up by the media (sells papers probably). Time more people spoke up against this trend ... but I guess it takes the heat off Kiwi shitty drivers ... and there is quite a few of them. Darwin's theory isn't working as fast as I would personally like ...


Now, I'm not saying that any of the proposed solutions would be workable, but I am saying that if the people are telling you there is a problem and you either ignore it or worse tell them it's not a problem - you don't make the situation any better. In fact, that is the perfect breeding ground for resentment.

There IS a problem . A large portion of New Zealander's are shitty drivers. And the do nothing to improve themselves. Do not even admit they might be at fault ... "it's not my fault ... it was an accident" is a common response ... have you heard that before .. ??? SAID it even .. ??


My point that I was making in that post above was that NZs laughable infrastructure is a factor in forcing tourists to drive since there is no viable alternative. And should we have a functioning rail network a percentage of those visitors who have to drive (but perhaps ought not to) wouldn't- thus alleviating the problem.

Nobody "Forces" them to drive anywhere. If bus or rail tours were wanted on a scale you suggested ... more than a few years ago ... it may well have happened. Nonetheless ... they DO come here to DRIVE around NZ. Not to take a bus (well ok ... many still do) as a base form of transport. Campervans and SUV rentals are popular worldwide. A trend that isn't going away any time soon. And New Zealand firms are cashing in (in every sense of the word) on it ... :laugh:

Few (if any) changes will be made as to the regulations covering overseas driver's license validity in NZ any time soon. To many International conventions NZ is a party too ... demanding it remains as they are.

[Berries]

Another example of driver not engaging brain before turning.
Bloody tourists.

[scumdog]

Bloody tourists.


Yeah, who does she think she is, coming all the way from Cromwell and driving on OUR roads!!:wacko:

[eldog]

Yeah, who does she think she is, coming all the way from Cromwell and driving on OUR roads!!:wacko:

I have recently been out on your roads, I survived, thrice last year.:bleh:

the rest of the South Island had better watch out this year.

[TheDemonLord]

You got me ... I didn't ... :bleh:

That's the funny thing about making snarky comments when not reading information provided, it has a nasty habit of making you look foolish.


We ... ??? Do you see passports ??? do the passports tell you what type roads they have experience driving on .. ??? How good a driver they are and how many years of driving experience they've had .. ?? Do they tell you what roads they intend to travel on in NZ .. ??

Their passport is attributed to a Country, naming a person. It may list a place of birth. It may list places they have visited (Some countries do not stamp passports)

Literally a 2 second Google Search (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_New_Zealand)

So, it appears we DO have some pretty good numbers as to where the Tourists are coming from. And because we have access to the magical world of Google, we've got a pretty good idea of what the driving conditions in those places are like. I'll expand on this further below


My point of view is ... (almost) everybody is giving the overseas visitors a hard time for shitty driving, even to the point of being racist about it. Naming groups that they believe are the issue AS A NATIONAL GROUP. Most just say "Another bloody overseas driver killing kiwi's ... send them all home" or similar comment ... and ignore the fact that Kiwi's are killing more kiwis than the visitors. All hyped up by the media (sells papers probably). Time more people spoke up against this trend ... but I guess it takes the heat off Kiwi shitty drivers ... and there is quite a few of them. Darwin's theory isn't working as fast as I would personally like ...

Okay - Why is that? For starters they ARE over-represented in Crash stats compared to their relative size in the Population. Secondly we see similarities between various accidents and finally we see nothing has been done about the problem.

Getting back to where people come from - top of the list - Australia (no surprise there) - who we have a very strong similarity to - we have mostly the same Road Rules, Same cars, we drive on the same side of the road, we've both been driving (as a nation) for approximately the same length of time, have similar licencing requirements etc.

Next 2 are China and the US both of which drive on the Wrong side of the road - but lets compare the 2 - for starters the US has a relatively mature driving culture, similar vehicles etc. China on the other hand has only really had private Car ownership since 1985, and even then - the rate of Car Ownership is one quarter of the rate of ownership here (The US incidentally, right behind NZ in terms of ownership rates), then we need to factor in that testing vs Bribery in China is a thing.

Those factors of:

1: Only recently being able to drive as a private citizen
2: Not likely to have owned a car or had much driving experience
3: Driving on the wrong side of the road
4: Driving standards at the point of licencing not consistent due to corruption

Are causal in the pattern that we see of Tourist drivers. I want to be clear - there is nothing about 'race' in those statements, so you can put the 'RACISM' card back down. Add in the fact that they are the most numerous group of tourists after Australia is also relevant.

It seems to me that most people can accept Tourists being involved in Accidents so long as they feel that the driver would be able to meet the NZ licencing requirements in terms of basic car control and road-craft. Where People are upset is when they see drivers who demonstrably don't meet that standard (and we both agree, it's not particularly high) and yet due to having a licence of suspicious validity (ie it was paid for instead of being earnt) then people get rightfully upset.


There IS a problem . A large portion of New Zealander's are shitty drivers. And the do nothing to improve themselves. Do not even admit they might be at fault ... "it's not my fault ... it was an accident" is a common response ... have you heard that before .. ??? SAID it even .. ??

No one is disputing that, so why bring it up? The 2 statements are not mutually exclusive:

If I say "Some Tourists are bad drivers" that doesn't automatically mean "Kiwis are gods gift to the motoring world" - it is possible to make both statements:

"Some Kiwis are bad drivers" and "Some tourists are also bad drivers


Nobody "Forces" them to drive anywhere. If bus or rail tours were wanted on a scale you suggested ... more than a few years ago ... it may well have happened.

Okay then - how'd you get around NZ without driving? The options are:

1: You don't
2: You take a bus that takes 2-3 times as long to get anywhere.

When you consider that for most Tourists (excluding Australia) it's a minimum of a 14 hour flight (and significant financial input) to get here and you only have a limited time, Driving quickly becomes the only option.

As for if 'Rail was wanted blah blah blah' - I didn't say that the number of tourists meant that it would be economically viable, I'm saying that with rail NOT being an alternative, the only option is to Drive.


Nonetheless ... they DO come here to DRIVE around NZ.

I know - I believe that is a key factor in the problem. Some who as you say 'DO come here to DRIVE around NZ' perhaps shouldn't be driving


Not to take a bus (well ok ... many still do) as a base form of transport. Campervans and SUV rentals are popular worldwide. A trend that isn't going away any time soon. And New Zealand firms are cashing in (in every sense of the word) on it ... :laugh:

I know they are popular Worldwide, but Worldwide there are alternatives - I've travelled all over Europe - never had to hire a Car - it was a Train ride from major city to major city then a MTS to get to where I needed to be in that city then a short walk to get to where I needed to be.

Without that as an option, Everyone (regardless of skill) has to drive to get around NZ.


Few (if any) changes will be made as to the regulations covering overseas driver's license validity in NZ any time soon. To many International conventions NZ is a party too ... demanding it remains as they are.

And I believe I said that most of the proposed solutions weren't workable.... So again, you bring up things that I'm neither disagreeing with or have outright stated.

However, simply stating that the current solutions aren't practical is not the same as saying that there isn't a problem or that NZers are the problem anyway, Again - the more you dismiss something that is an issue the louder and more ugly the complaints are going to get - your choice.

[Berries]

A graph I found a few years ago that I used in a presentation about (one reason) why Chinese driver crash involvement is increasing in NZ.

[Jeeper]

I installed a dashcam in my Jeep over the weekend, and today captured this wonderful driving from a bus driver. As soon as I saw the bus pulling out on left, I knew there was absolutely no intention on his part to even care who he sideswiped. I stomped on the brakes and hoped the driver behind me stopped as well. You can clearly see how many cars had to brake because of this bus driver's impatience.

A bus weaving like that in rush hour traffic, who needs tourists for an accident. I have many similar examples on my bike dashcam.

https://youtu.be/4Hxz7Afq9gA

[Laava]

When I lived and drove in London, the buses pretty much have the right of way so pull out like that at the merest flick of an indicator!

[pritch]

Another example of driver not engaging brain before turning.

Back wherever the Asian family originated from it's entirely conceivable that the locals are discussing the stupid Kiwi drivers.

[Jeeper]

When I lived and drove in London, the buses pretty much have the right of way so pull out like that at the merest flick of an indicator!I understand the physics of impact with a bus. It's never in my favour, best course of action is to be defensive with them around.

[pritch]

I installed a dashcam in my Jeep over the weekend, and today captured this wonderful driving from a bus driver. As soon as I saw the bus pulling out on left, I knew there was absolutely no intention on his part to even care who he sideswiped. I stomped on the brakes and hoped the driver behind me stopped as well. You can clearly see how many cars had to brake because of this bus driver's impatience.

A bus weaving like that in rush hour traffic, who needs tourists for an accident. I have many similar examples on my bike dashcam.

https://youtu.be/4Hxz7Afq9gA

The bus driver has a schedule to adhere to (if possible). Silly I know, but he's hoping for some courtesy from other road users. The van driver had stopped to let the bus out but you carried on blissfully unaware of what was happening. Your situational awareness needs work.

For a motorcyclist your knowledge of other what other road users are doing seems a bit ummm rudimentary.

[Bonez]

I installed a dashcam in my Jeep over the weekend, and today captured this wonderful driving from a bus driver. As soon as I saw the bus pulling out on left, I knew there was absolutely no intention on his part to even care who he sideswiped. I stomped on the brakes and hoped the driver behind me stopped as well. You can clearly see how many cars had to brake because of this bus driver's impatience.

A bus weaving like that in rush hour traffic, who needs tourists for an accident. I have many similar examples on my bike dashcam.

https://youtu.be/4Hxz7Afq9gALooks like pretty normal city traffic driving to me.

[Jeeper]

The bus driver has a schedule to adhere to (if possible). Silly I know, but he's hoping for some courtesy from other road users. The van driver had stopped to let the bus out but you carried on blissfully unaware of what was happening. Your situational awareness needs work.

For a motorcyclist your knowledge of other what other road users are doing seems a bit ummm rudimentary.Ah, I see. I never read the section of road code that talks about maintaining a bus schedule. My bad.

[pritch]

Ah, I see. I never read the section of road code that talks about maintaining a bus schedule. My bad.

It's much worse than that, you are ignoring what's happening around you. Ditch the camera and do a defensive driving course.

[caseye]

It's much worse than that, you are ignoring what's happening around you. Ditch the camera and do a defensive driving course.

Wot he said and Soon, you know, like before youré a smudge on a Buses bumper, because looking so hard for faults in others will put you right under a bus.

[Jeeper]

I was not on a motorcycle, I was driving and fully aware of my surroundings. You high horse riders don't have very good reading skills I guess.

[sidecar bob]

Ah, I see. I never read the section of road code that talks about maintaining a bus schedule. My bad.

Ridiculous of the road code writers to omit the section on using basic common sense.
I have noticed however, that Jeep owners display a special sense of entitlement in their driving.
Possibly because their vehicles resemble a gay boudoir.

[JimO]

Back wherever the Asian family originated from it's entirely conceivable that the locals are discussing the stupid Kiwi drivers.
tourists arnt allowed to drive in china

[Berries]

tourists arnt allowed to drive in china
I understood that they can drive there but it is made very hard, ie all the paperwork is in Chinese which most tourists won't be able to read, even if they can talk a few words and order a beer.

Be interested to know if what you say is true. I am aware China is one of the few places not signed up to the 1949 Convention that allows reciprocal driving arrangements between countries.

[FJRider]

tourists arnt allowed to drive in china

Yes they are, but with conditions.

https://www.chinesedriverslicensetest.com/tourists-drive-china/

[FJRider]

Ah, I see. I never read the section of road code that talks about maintaining a bus schedule. My bad.

The Road code is not Legislation or Law. It does not mention a lot of what is written in/as Legislation.

However ... the Road Code DOES mention the need for courtesy on the road. And like most roads ... courtesy works both way ... :cool:

[Bonez]

I was not on a motorcycle, I was driving and fully aware of my surroundings. You high horse riders don't have very good reading skills I guess.Where did any one say you where on a m/c? Do you ride a m/c not being fully aware of your surroundings?

[JimO]

Yes they are, but with conditions.

https://www.chinesedriverslicensetest.com/tourists-drive-china/
perhaps we need the same conditions here then

[FJRider]

perhaps we need the same conditions here then

Why … ???

We need the Chinese here (spending money) … more than China needs us there … ;)

The number of Kiwi's going to China is very small. Not even 1 % of Kiwi's going overseas touring.

[JimO]

Why … ???

.
because they can get straight off a plane and head off in a large SUV without any understanding of our roads/rules/conditions, at least tourists in china have to sit through a test of some sort, i spent a month in china and they drive there same as they drive here, badly

[FJRider]

because they can get straight off a plane and head off in a large SUV without any understanding of our roads/rules/conditions, at least tourists in china have to sit through a test of some sort, i spent a month in china and they drive there same as they drive here, badly

The very same can be said about an awful lot of New Zealanders … and THEY can't say they just got off a plane … <_< Kiwi's kill more people on our roads (in one year) than ALL the visitor drivers ever have in NZ … :angry: And they think the Chinese are dangerous … <_<

When was the last time you saw (in the newspapers or on TV) a Chinese visitor driver being involved in a fatal accident on NZ roads … ??

[JimO]

The very same can be said about an awful lot of New Zealanders … and THEY can't say they just got off a plane … <_< Kiwi's kill more people on our roads (in one year) than ALL the visitor drivers ever have in NZ … :angry: And they think the Chinese are dangerous … <_<

When was the last time you saw (in the newspapers or on TV) a Chinese visitor driver being involved in a fatal accident on NZ roads … ??
nationalities dont seem to get reported in the media for some unknown reason, perhaps some government/police initiative to keep the sheeple unaware who would know
you live in central dont you? do you drive around with your eyes shut?
of course kiwi drivers make up most of the deaths accidents duh.....https://www.transport.govt.nz/mot-resources/road-safety-resources/crashfacts/overseasdriversincrashes/

[FJRider]

nationalities dont seem to get reported in the media for some unknown reason, perhaps some government/police initiative to keep the sheeple unaware who would know

Are you thick .. ??? was the nationality of the driver in question in THIS thread mentioned … ??? fucking oath it was. As EVERY fatal prang will (Unless name suppression is ordered) … and any other prangs with foreign driver involvement.


you live in central dont you? do you drive around with your eyes shut?
of course kiwi drivers make up most of the deaths accidents duh.....

Aside from the fact that I'm not in Central much anymore … the shitty drivers involved in the large majority of motor vehicle accidents (in that area or anywhere else) and driving incidents are KIWI's … plain and simple. But you won't read about Kiwi drivers shitty driving much because it's not news. Well … not news KIWI's want to read about.

And while I was living in that area … the number of motorcyclists visiting the area (singly and in groups) was quite high ... And the average riding standard was not that great. A few even killed themselves in the area. Full dress cruisers with riders wearing shorts, T-shirt and jandals (no gloves) was (and still is) common. To see large groups (of all types) travelling at (well) over 100 km/hr with spacings of less than 6 meters is common. There are brilliant motorcycling roads in the area … but traffic volume nowadays has increased to the extent you need to literally just slow down. Off season rides used to be the best times for rides there … but there is no off season now.

And for some reason … fewer Chinese drivers on the roads at the moment … :innocent:

[TheDemonLord]

And for some reason … fewer Chinese drivers on the roads at the moment … :innocent:

Will be interesting then to compare the Crash Stats for the same time period and see what the difference is....

[FJRider]

Will be interesting then to compare the Crash Stats for the same time period and see what the difference is....

Funnily enough … they "May" be shitty drivers … but they don't feature much in fatal accident stat's … from European areas usually.

A thing to look at in crashes with "Foreign driver involvement" ... is whom is at fault. Often the headline is "Overseas tourist was involved" … not always found to be at fault. Mention of charges laid is usually mentioned on page three … a week later.

[Jeeper]

Basing nationalities on driver's external features is extremely dangerous - actually largely racist as well.

An Asian looking driver.... Hmmm. How large is Asia and how do we know they are not 3rd generation local citizens.

[JimO]

Basing nationalities on driver's external features is extremely dangerous - actually largely racist as well.

An Asian looking driver.... Hmmm. How large is Asia and how do we know they are not 3rd generation local citizens. perhaps they are 3rd generation kiwis driving erratically and overtaking on blind corners and double yellow lines....is that racist?

[JimO]

Are you thick .. ??? was the nationality of the driver in question in THIS thread mentioned … ??? fucking oath it was. As EVERY fatal prang will (Unless name suppression is ordered) … and any other prangs with foreign driver involvement.



Aside from the fact that I'm not in Central much anymore …
.perhaps you should have a drive around central in the "on" season for tourists every second car is a rental and 2 out of 3 are driven badly by asians

[Jeeper]

perhaps they are 3rd generation kiwis driving erratically and overtaking on blind corners and double yellow lines....is that racist?Not unless the race of the driver is mentioned. Debate should be about local license holder vs overseas license holder. I don't particularly care where they were born or what nationality they have.

[Berries]

I don't particularly care where they were born or what nationality they have.
Well you should. Some countries have lax or non existent testing, like many parts of India. Some simply have drivers who cannot cope with our roading network. Drove from Queenstown to Dunedin this morning and while the town was unusually quiet last night there are still rental cars knocking around with drivers who are quite clearly from the China/Taiwan area. Followed one for 20km through the Gorge and it was classic behaviour that we see on those roads. I was first on the scene of a crash in Cromwell a couple of months ago. Chinese driver.

Nationality helps show what side of the road people are used to and what their average driving standard is like. You can't just blame tourist drivers as a whole because a driver from Germany who fails to give way at an intersection probably did it for a different reason than an Australian would and IMO undoubtedly for a different reason than a Chinese person would if you try and understand their give way rules.



When was the last time you saw (in the newspapers or on TV) a Chinese visitor driver being involved in a fatal accident on NZ roads Â… ??
Don't have to go 200m from the the site of the crash this thread is about to find this https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/north-otago/tourist-jailed-after-fatal-crash.

1,200m away at the boulders turn off - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11757237

What about Riley Baker 10km south of Moeraki - https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11699721

And talking of motorcyclists - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/63374238/police-tried-to-find-tourist-driver-before-she-killed-2-people

Any one of the above could have been you, me, or anyone else. It is wrong that we allow this to happen in pursuit of the tourist dollar.

[FJRider]

Don't have to go 200m from the the site of the crash this thread is about to find this[B][U]

Any one of the above could have been you, me, or anyone else. It is wrong that we allow this to happen in pursuit of the tourist dollar.

It is now 2020 … none since 2016 … ??? :scratch:

One in 2014 … one in 2015 .. and two in 2016. One of the latter killed herself in the accident. Hardly the scourge of New Zealand roads … :lol:

Too many find it easy to blame overseas drivers for killing our population …. 62 people already this year have died on our roads … How many were at the hands of an overseas driver of ANY nationality .. ???

Good on you for trying to prove a point though … although I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove … ;)

[TheDemonLord]

Not unless the race of the driver is mentioned. Debate should be about local license holder vs overseas license holder. I don't particularly care where they were born or what nationality they have.

I think there needs to be a very clear distinction.

No one is leveling an accusation of group-level bad driving habits based on their Race. It's not like there is something at a Genetic Level that predisposes them to be bad drivers. As such, there is nothing to do with 'Race' that comes into it.

The common complaint is around Driver licencing requirements that are either inconsistent or the method of obtaining a licence is susceptible to Corruption. With this complaint, Nationality is absolutely a factor.

The next common complaint is around Drivers who have been appropriately licenced, but their driving experience is such that they are not used to Left hand, High speed, single lane, undivided, twisty roads that form the only links between major towns and cities. Again - Nationality here is absolutely a factor.

Lastly there is a comment around countries that have really only recently have either allowed their citizens to drive or had the economic growth so that an emergent middle class can afford to drive/own cars/go on holiday and as such they don't have a large population of competent drivers or mature driving culture. Finally - Nationality is a factor here also.

Now, of course, not all drivers from a particular area are going to be bad - It's a Bell Curve, there's a few fantastic drivers, a few shit ones and most are Ok. Where I see the issue is because of those 3 factors above, which are all linked to the rules and culture of the country they come from (not the 'Race' of the individual), the perception and over-representation shows that said Bell Curve is skewed.

I think that a frank discussion is needed, where one side acknowledges that nothing about this issue is to do with Race, even if you can find N number of people complaining about 'Bloody Asian Tourist drivers' - and the other side acknowledges that any solution has to be implemented in a way that is discriminatory only on driving ability, is fair and doesn't add unreasonable/excess burden to the tourist industry in it's application.

[FJRider]

.perhaps you should have a drive around central in the "on" season for tourists every second car is a rental and 2 out of 3 are driven badly by asians

And you should know that "Driving badly" isn't featured in any stat's (that I'm aware of) … and if caught by :Police: "Driving badly" … they risk only a Traffic Offence notice. At worst … a Summons to a New Zealand Court. Just the same as any Kiwi driver caught by :Police: "Driving badly" … :msn-wink:

Sixty two deaths on our roads this year … and a lot of the year still to go. How many at the hands of an overseas driver … ?? Whatever the figure … it's more than we all would like … but New Zealanders kill more New Zealanders on our roads than any other nationality.

[FJRider]

Don't have to go 200m from the the site of the crash this thread is about to find this …

Less than two weeks ago I was in Moeraki for a few nights … coming from Oamaru direction heading south … just before the turn-off to Moeraki township … you come over a slight rise in the road. You then had Four seconds to decide to brake (or not) before it was too late to avoid a collision if somebody was (might be) turning.

On NZ roads … this is not only common … but to be expected. Often you may find you have less time to make that decision …

[FJRider]

perhaps they are 3rd generation kiwis driving erratically and overtaking on blind corners and double yellow lines....is that racist?

If you want racist … let's go through the stat's … count up the deaths that Maori vs NZ European drivers killed on our roads … :shifty:

But … if it's fact … can it still be racist .. ?? :confused:

[sidecar bob]

If you want racist … let's go through the stat's … count up the deaths that Maori vs NZ European drivers killed on our roads … :shifty:

But … if it's fact … can it still be racist .. ?? :confused:

Only if the facts make the aggrieved look bad, otherwise its perfectly ok.

[FJRider]

only if the facts make the aggrieved look bad, otherwise its perfectly ok.

ok ………………………. <_<

[Berries]

It is now 2020 … none since 2016 … ??? :scratch:

One in 2014 … one in 2015 .. and two in 2016. One of the latter killed herself in the accident. Hardly the scourge of New Zealand roads … :lol:

Too many find it easy to blame overseas drivers for killing our population …. 62 people already this year have died on our roads … How many were at the hands of an overseas driver of ANY nationality .. ???

Good on you for trying to prove a point though … although I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove … ;)
You're talking the whole country. I am talking a small radius centred on the crash this thread is about and crashes I have personal knowledge of.

I don't care about the north island or Marlborough or Canterbury. Me and the family use the roads in Otago and Southland. We have always had tourists drivers here, they will always feature in our crash stats because we are a tourist destination with, as someone else pointed out, sod all useful public transport. My issue is that there has a been a massive increase in one particular nationality coming here in the last few years and that nationality continues to show evidence of not being able to cope with New Zealand roads or traffic.

If I told you that 100 percent of multiple vehicle fatal crashes between Hampden and Palmerston over the last full five years were caused by drivers of this nationality, which they were, would you simply flick that away by saying I was being too specific, even though it is the section of road this thread is actually about?