The 2020 Election Thread [Archive]

husaberg

18th February 2020, 19:03

Jacinda is honing her turkey nod with this Winston SFO thing.
I hope shes got a good chiropractor.

In your opinion how does Winston's situation differ from Simons with the Mongolian horse riders associations donations.
Other than he claims he was unaware of it an Simon was clearly caught on tape giving directions about hiding donations.......
Interested to hear your opinion?

Simon Bridges polling bugger all as preferred PM so I guess the Nats will be pushing policy and not personality. Probably too late for a change now ... but Labour did it very succesfully last time and much later. Don't know who you'd change him for. Judith Collins seems to be getting some traction but she comes with too much baggage so ... ? Actually I feel sorry for him. He gets criticised for a slow uninspiring speaking voice but this comes from years of being a trial lawyer where slow and clear delivery are required.
.

I dont buy the Simon speech patterns are because he was a trial lawyer, as he simply wasn't one for that long at all. Hes been an MP for far longer.
He moved to Tauraunga and became a prosecuter in 2001 he joined Parliament in 2008 but in the mean time he traveled to the UK gained a masters from Oxford met and married his wife and also studied at the London school of Economics and later worked as an intern at the UK house of commons.

Now that does not leave much time for trial lawyering does it.......
He simply has all the charisma of a damp squid.
As i have said before he reminds me of a smarmy kid whose been given a management job as his dad owns the company.

Murray

18th February 2020, 19:32

Nz First out of Parliament.

All going to depend on Shane Jones he's splashed so much money on the North its possible he will be voted in!!

Danger Mouse

18th February 2020, 20:08

He'll be lucky to survive until the election, Paula and Crusher will be sharpening their knives.

Bridges will lose the election for national and get rolled shortly after for the ex air new Zealand ceo.

oldrider

18th February 2020, 21:22

Bridges will lose the election for national and get rolled shortly after for the ex air new Zealand ceo.

True! - But? (Could even happen sooner?)

There are so many scenarios available to all of them to take and if they actually played them all to best effect - how much benefit would it create for the taxpaying voters of the country? - My bet? - NONE! :oi-grr:

jasonu

19th February 2020, 03:27

He simply has all the charisma of a damp squid.
.

While I agree with that, as someone else said the party is polling well so it doesn't look like it will matter.
Labour has failed miserably in keeping its election promises. That coupled with all the other blunders horseface has mishandled, Curran, Lees Galloway, that Murray woman who yelled at her people for missing that photo opportuniddy, etc National has a great chance.

sidecar bob

19th February 2020, 06:31

In your opinion how does Winston's situation differ from Simons with the Mongolian horse riders associations donations.
Other than he claims he was unaware of it an Simon was clearly caught on tape giving directions about hiding donations.......
Interested to hear your opinion?
.

I dont have an opinion, im simply bemused by the body language of her & Winnie on the news last nite.
You could see they were in some kind of shit even with the TV on mute.

TheDemonLord

19th February 2020, 07:42

All going to depend on Shane Jones he's splashed so much money on the North its possible he will be voted in!!

Maybe, however a lot of Rural Voters who were NZ First voters are both pissed at them getting into bed with Labour in the first place (never a good idea to cross the floor in a coalition) and also a good number of them where LFOs.

It's hard to sell Northland that "We didn't have any money to invest in infrastructure" then magically find $100+ Million behind the couch for your ideological pet project.

sidecar bob

19th February 2020, 09:08

Maybe, however a lot of Rural Voters who were NZ First voters are both pissed at them getting into bed with Labour in the first place (never a good idea to cross the floor in a coalition) and also a good number of them where LFOs.

It's hard to sell Northland that "We didn't have any money to invest in infrastructure" then magically find $100+ Million behind the couch for your ideological pet project.

Just like Tauranga.
In 2016 National had signed the contract to have the dangerous section of SH2 between Tauranga & Katikati upgraded.
As soon as Labour got into power they cancelled that contract. This month Labour reinstated the same contract.
How gullible & stupid do they think the average voter actually is?
Of course theyre going to get another term, off the success of Kiwibuild alone.

husaberg

19th February 2020, 10:16

Just like Tauranga.
In 2016 National had signed the contract to have the dangerous section of SH2 between Tauranga & Katikati upgraded.
As soon as Labour got into power they cancelled that contract. This month Labour reinstated the same contract.
How gullible & stupid do they think the average voter actually is?
Of course theyre going to get another term, off the success of Kiwibuild alone.

Yes how gullible do you think people are indeed
National released on the 19th December 2019.

that “More detail will be released in 2020 about which projects we will commit to, but we’re interested in feedback on upgrading the following routes to four-lane expressway standard:
Tauranga to Katikati, including the Tauranga Northern Link
https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1912/S00149/highways-to-get-major-funding-boost-under-national.htm
They never progressed beyond the talking about it stage. Do you understand they never committed the funding it was not cancelled it was never commited to happening they never completed or initiated the projects funding or approvial.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/sh2-waihi-to-tauranga-corridor/

They then asked Labor to commit the funding for it it was not cancelled as you suggested.
Your suggestions are both fase and attempting to mislead.

Support the Katikati to Tauranga Road of National Significance
In 2017 the National Government announced a new Road of National Significance stretching from Tauranga to Katikati. This project is vital for the growth of the Bay of Plenty region. It will help improve road safety, travel times and boost regional economic growth.

Labour has not committed to this road project.

We are asking the Government to commit to funding this Road of National Significance including:
A full continuous four-lane motorway from Tauranga to Katikati;
A grade separated connection from Omokoroa onto SH2;
The Katikati bypass.
Add your name, and let Phil Twyford know that he needs to back our regions.
https://scottsimpson.national.org.nz/katikati_to_tauranga

https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20190925_053100000/10-question-no-10-transport
Chris Bishop: Why did the New Zealand Transport Agency not reallocate all of the $313 million straight back into the State highway improvements activity class, when that activity class has been cut by $5 billion over the next decade, meaning that critical projects like the Tauranga Northern Link, Melling interchange, and Ōtaki to Levin have been cancelled or delayed?

Hon PHIL TWYFORD: .....the member's broader point is that there is a list of projects that are ready to fund, including safety upgrades and including State highway projects, but this Government is not going to give a blank cheque to a dozen motorway projects that were promised by the last Government, and all but two of them were not funded or designated. They are ghost roads.

Chris Bishop: Does he stand by his comment that the 12 re-evaluated projects he's just mentioned have very low economic value; if so, why?

Hon PHIL TWYFORD: It's my view that very few, if any, of those—the second generation so-called roads of national significance that National promised—would exceed a benefit-cost ratio of one. They weren't funded. They weren't designated, with a couple of exceptions. They were campaign promises—the worst of pork-barrel politics. Meanwhile, this Government is getting on with investing—for example, $1.4 billion in safety upgrades across 3,500 kilometres of roading network that will save 160 deaths and serious injuries every year.
Chris Bishop: Is he seriously saying to the House that projects like the Tauranga Northern Link—which was funded, consented, and out for procurement—and projects like the Melling interchange and the Ōtaki to Levin project—
Hon Simon Bridges: Can the Minister confirm that the Tauranga Northern Link was approved for funding by the then NZTA board, and can he also confirm that nothing else needs to happen, short of signing the cheque?

Hon PHIL TWYFORD: The Tauranga Northern Link was—the route was designated, but it was not funded under the last Government.

Chris Bishop: Is he seriously saying that those important projects are of low economic value?

Hon PHIL TWYFORD: What I'm saying—and the member's quite wrong in his question—is the Tauranga Northern Link was designated but not a single cent was allocated to it in National's last plan—not a single cent.

jasonu

19th February 2020, 11:07

How gullible & stupid do they think the average voter actually is?
.

The same voters that voted for them last time? Very gullible and stupid apparently.

oldrider

19th February 2020, 11:18

The same voters that voted for them last time? Very gullible and stupid apparently.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result? - Hello? :scratch: - But hey that applies to all the other parties and their supporters as well - and then MMP is an unknown/unexpected ending - "Raffle result"? :doh:

Swoop

19th February 2020, 14:48

All going to depend on Shane Jones he's splashed so much money on the North its possible he will be voted in!!
Depends on how much leaks out, regarding the $$$'s siphoned into his and winnie's lawyer's accounts from the tree-planting bullshit.

This month Labour reinstated the same contract.
How gullible & stupid do they think the average voter actually is?
A: "Very".

sidecar bob

19th February 2020, 15:39

Yes how gullible do you think people are indeed
National released on the 19th December 2019.

They never progressed beyond the talking about it stage. Do you understand they never committed the funding it was not cancelled it was never commited to happening they never completed or initiated the projects funding or approvial.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/projects/sh2-waihi-to-tauranga-corridor/

They then asked Labor to commit the funding for it it was not cancelled as you suggested.
Your suggestions are both fase and attempting to mislead.
That kept you busy for half an hour, well done:lol:
Let me know how much I owe you for rent inside your head.

husaberg

19th February 2020, 16:07

That kept you busy for half an hour, well done:lol:
Let me know how much I owe you for rent inside your head.

Really, it took a few minutes to prove you wrong. Not half an hour.
That's three times in a row you have made statements that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, that would embarrass the feck out of me.
Maybe next time if you made statements that did stand up to scrutiny............
For instance, if National has to lie to try and score political points just how great are they.............
Surely if they were great they could stand up tall on their own merits.

sidecar bob

19th February 2020, 17:00

Really, it took a few minutes to prove you wrong. Not half an hour.
That's three times in a row you have made statements that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, that would embarrass the feck out of me.
Maybe next time if you made statements that did stand up to scrutiny............
For instance, if National has to lie to try and score political points just how great are they.............
Surely if they were great they could stand up tall on their own merits.
Come on, learn how to have a bit of fun with it.
I couldnt care less about the whole deal, but I do laugh when u get wound up.
No offence intended, im just not that uptight anymore.

husaberg

19th February 2020, 17:20

Come on, learn how to have a bit of fun with it.
I couldnt care less about the whole deal, but I do laugh when u get wound up.
No offence intended, im just not that uptight anymore.

Bob, proving Torry's wrong is fun. Nothing you have said thus far as ever offended me or wound me up.
I know a guy from Basque, if you ever want to see someone get would up about politics, ask one of them them what its like to be part of Spain.

frogfeaturesFZR

19th February 2020, 18:38

Bob, proving Torry's wrong is fun. Nothing you have said thus far as ever offended me or wound me up.
I know a guy from Basque, if you ever want to see someone get would up about politics, ask one of them them what its like to be part of Spain.

Tell him Real Madrids a better team than Barcelona.
Then start running, fast !

Bonez

19th February 2020, 18:41

That kept you busy for half an hour, well done:lol:
Let me know how much I owe you for rent inside your head.I bet it is getting very cramped in there.

Banditbandit

24th February 2020, 11:16

Works for me.

Ps, Seymour for police minister

Seymour is an atheist - he can't be a minister ..

husaberg

24th February 2020, 11:23

Seymour is an atheist - he can't be a minister ..

Pretty sure hes a hologram also...

344750

Danger Mouse

25th February 2020, 03:12

Pretty sure hes a hologram also...

344750

Is that from the tv series red dwarf? The reference I mean I know its david Seymour.

TheDemonLord

25th February 2020, 06:17

Is that from the tv series red dwarf? The reference I mean I know its david Seymour.

He's Arnold, Arnold, Arnold Rimmer.
Without him life would be much grimmer.
He's handsome, trim, and no-one slimmer.
He will never need a zimmer.

husaberg

25th February 2020, 16:23

Is that from the tv series red dwarf? The reference I mean I know its david Seymour.

Of course not smeghead.

oldrider

5th March 2020, 15:54

The Muslim Migrant Attack in St. Louis You Heard Nothing About? - https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/the-muslim-migrant-attack-in-st-louis-you-heard-nothing-about/ - :wait:

Oakie

5th March 2020, 19:00

The Muslim Migrant Attack in St. Louis You Heard Nothing About? - https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/the-muslim-migrant-attack-in-st-louis-you-heard-nothing-about/ - :wait:

To be fair though, there was no religious slant to the attack. The headline should have read "Woman attacked by intellectually disabled teen'.

oldrider

5th March 2020, 19:18

To be fair though, there was no religious slant to the attack. The headline should have read "Woman attacked by intellectually disabled teen'.

True but the MSM didn't say anything - that seems to be the message of the article? - :shutup: - (I asked the question of how would Jacinda handle such a situation?)

husaberg

6th March 2020, 16:56

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/411056/jami-lee-ross-in-parliament-links-national-donations-to-communist-party

Speaking in the debating chamber, the independent MP called on National to return about $150,000 which he said he had learned originated from China.

"These donations are linked back to China, are linked to the Chinese Communist Party and with ease entered New Zealand," he told MPs

https://youtu.be/UkaJrzd6-hw

Shame we dont t have any Chinese Cossack dancing videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEuFtVf6oSw

Viking01

6th April 2020, 11:07

mashman

6th April 2020, 12:41

Covid 19 is dominating headlines all around the world, and for obvious reason.

But on our local patch, there had been earlier talk about a cannabis referendum. And while it was scheduled for September, time flies fast. Came across the following article this morning which talks about the Canadian experience of legalisation (so far) ;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/05/stoners-cheered-when-canada-legalised-cannabis-how-did-it-all-go-wrong

The one thing they can't do is the one thing they need to do. Legalise it, walk away and let the market create itself without government interference. By all means regulate the medical stuff, but there already exists a successful supply chain that serves the recreational scene without killing anyone. The one thing they can't do is the one thing they need to do. Legalise it and walk the fuck away.

TheDemonLord

6th April 2020, 20:17

and let the market create itself

Quite possibly the best laugh I've had in ages.

mashman

7th April 2020, 08:12

Not sure where to run as a candidate this year. Hmmmmmmmm.

sidecar bob

7th April 2020, 08:41

Not sure where to run as a candidate this year. Hmmmmmmmm.

You can only run within 2km of your house at the moment.:bleh:

TheDemonLord

7th April 2020, 08:46

You can only run within 2km of your house at the moment.:bleh:

Unless you are the Labour Health minister - because the rules then don't apply to you :laugh:

Gearup

7th April 2020, 09:05

Unless you are the Labour Health minister - because the rules then don't apply to you :laugh:

Yes, his latest excursion during the lockdown was a 20km drive to the beach with family ffs!

pete376403

7th April 2020, 09:39

Yes, his latest excursion during the lockdown was a 20km drive to the beach with family ffs!

He's got a way to go to top Soimons excursons to Wellington

Gearup

7th April 2020, 09:53

He's got a way to go to top Soimons excursons to Wellington

True, but Soimon reckons hus trups are umportant work not for fun...

mashman

7th April 2020, 10:22

You can only run within 2km of your house at the moment.:bleh:

heh... that gives me 3,140 k's ;)

pete376403

7th April 2020, 12:17

True, but Soimon reckons hus trups are umportant work not for fun...

Something wrong when the Leader of the Oppositions salary and benefits package doesn't extend to a decent home internet connection. Sparks coverage map shows Tauranga central (where the National electorate office is) has excellent 4g coverage, so he could safely work from there.

husaberg

7th April 2020, 12:48

Something wrong when the Leader of the Oppositions salary and benefits package doesn't extend to a decent home internet connection. Sparks coverage map shows Tauranga central (where the National electorate office is) has excellent 4g coverage, so he could safely work from there.

according to the latest conspiracy if it was 5G he would have the virus.
Did he limo it there?
For A 100k Donation he could have got a Chinese Mp to do it for him.........

Gearup

7th April 2020, 13:53

caspernz

7th April 2020, 14:39

Covid 19 is dominating headlines all around the world, and for obvious reason.

But on our local patch, there had been earlier talk about a cannabis referendum. And while it was scheduled for September, time flies fast. Came across the following article this morning which talks about the Canadian experience of legalisation (so far) ;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/05/stoners-cheered-when-canada-legalised-cannabis-how-did-it-all-go-wrong

Good reading, the time span to judge the transition over is a bit short though.

I'm concerned with legalising dope before we have an effective and easy way of testing for it in a workplace setting. The old "glassy eyed and lethargic" stereotype doesn't hold true for all, nor will it stand up in court :brick:

Swoop

8th April 2020, 15:29

Not sure where to run as a candidate this year. Hmmmmmmmm.

Toss a coin to decide. You will make no difference, apart from a few deluded people wasting their vote on someone making promises that will never be kept.

mashman

8th April 2020, 18:34

Toss a coin to decide. You will make no difference, apart from a few deluded people wasting their vote on someone making promises that will never be kept.

You really are at the bottom of the barrel eh, coz that really makes no sense. You won;t make a difference because you won't get there to make a difference on the basis that no one will vote for you to not keep promises that you can't keep because you never got to a place where they could be executed.

Shine on your crazy diamond.......

Berries

8th April 2020, 23:44

I'm concerned with legalising dope before we have an effective and easy way of testing for it in a workplace setting. The old "glassy eyed and lethargic" stereotype doesn't hold true for all, nor will it stand up in court
If they are not glassy eyed and lethargic or otherwise impaired in such a way that they cannot do a job safely what do you need to test for? I thought that it was generally understood that cannabis can stay in your system at measurable levels long after it has any effect on your abilities?

I'm thinking they should rush the legislation through so that after the lockdown Griffin's and Arnott's can get a head start and Domino's can employ the gazillion drivers they will need, shovel ready and all that.

Swoop

10th April 2020, 13:35

You really are at the bottom of the barrel eh, coz that really makes no sense. You won;t make a difference because you won't get there to make a difference on the basis that no one will vote for you to not keep promises that you can't keep because you never got to a place where they could be executed.

Shine on your crazy diamond.......

Comprehension isn't your strong point either.
Go and find an electorate to stand in, and get another 50 votes from the "easily deluded" of the community.

husaberg

26th April 2020, 13:03

345758
One school of thought would be to let Mr Bridges contest the election anyway - if National loses roll him.

The problem though for a large chunk of the caucus is that could bring their political careers to an abrupt end if they're in a marginal seat, or have a low list placing.
The other consideration is the imminent arrival of Chris Luxon into the caucus, if - as expected - he takes Botany, there may not be a clear run at the leadership for those who fancy their chances now.

husaberg

3rd May 2020, 16:28

R650R

3rd May 2020, 17:53

Leaked UMR poll: National under 30%, Labour at 55%
UMr is the poll that Labour does
but its backed by the leaked results of Nationals own (Curia) polling
which was National 31% Labour 49% carried ou in April.
345826

Think prob a lot of natural support for governing party during time of disaster. Crusher Collins is obvious choice to roll bridges at eliminate the women vote factor that Jacinda rode in on.
She’s big on law and order which people will be clamouring for. Theft and crime is going to rise after people start feeling the pinch in post lockdown depression.
Here in Napier it’s been a safe labour seat for awhile but people here really pissed at the weak govt response (not the police there doing great with limited tools) to multiple gang shootouts at medical centre and McD’s when our MP is police minister.
Once people get a proper reaming from the taxes to pay for Covid money drop there will be swing to right.
Jacindas coalition partners have done their dash, Ive long liked Winston but he’s toasted himself and the greens are now irrelevant, we just won’t be able to afford their nonsense ideas that need massive public money to possible work

husaberg

3rd May 2020, 19:36

Think prob a lot of natural support for governing party during time of disaster. Crusher Collins is obvious choice to roll bridges at eliminate the women vote factor that Jacinda rode in on.
She’s big on law and order which people will be clamouring for. Theft and crime is going to rise after people start feeling the pinch in post lockdown depression.
Here in Napier it’s been a safe labour seat for awhile but people here really pissed at the weak govt response (not the police there doing great with limited tools) to multiple gang shootouts at medical centre and McD’s when our MP is police minister.
Once people get a proper reaming from the taxes to pay for Covid money drop there will be swing to right.
Jacindas coalition partners have done their dash, Ive long liked Winston but he’s toasted himself and the greens are now irrelevant, we just won’t be able to afford their nonsense ideas that need massive public money to possible work

Yeah Crusher is big on law unless she is the one breaking it............
Mitchell doesn't have the Babbage she does.

sidecar bob

3rd May 2020, 19:54

Yeah Chrusher is big on law unless she is the one breaking it.............

Same as Dave then?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52194407

husaberg

3rd May 2020, 19:57

Same as Dave then?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52194407

Not really, He admitted it rather then lied about it......

sidecar bob

3rd May 2020, 20:12

Not really, He admitted it rather then lied about it......

Only afer someone took a pic & dobbed him in.

husaberg

3rd May 2020, 20:22

Only afer someone took a pic & dobbed him in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=La1yqsu8pIY&feature=emb_logo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5_V87vLBN8&feature=emb_logo

The dinner was with senior members of Oravida, a company that deals with New Zealand dairy products, and a senior Chinese government official. Collins' husband David Wong-Tung is a director of the company.
Key met Collins this morning to express his disappointment that she did not come clean when questions were first raised about her visiting Oravida offices during her official visit to China last year.

With three weeks to go until the September 20 election, here's my daily round-up of political news on Saturday August 30, including Prime Minister John Key's announcement he had accepted Judith Collins' resignation as Justice Minister after he received a copy of a 2011 email from Cameron Slater saying Collins was "gunning" for Serious Fraud Office Director Adam Feeley.
Collins later appeared in Auckland and read a statement denying she had pressured Feeley to leave and said she had been subject to a two year-long smear campaign.

National Party cabinet minister Judith Collins is forced to resign her portfolios after being involved in a string of scandals. Early in the year she is accused of a conflict of interest after an overseas trip where she appeared to be promoting milk products produced by Oravida – a New Zealand company of which her husband is a director. Later in the year, claims emerge in Nicky Hager's book Dirty Politics that Collins had passed on private information about public servants to right-wing attack-blogger Cameron Slater. New Zealand First leader Winston Peters also claims in the same month that Collins had approached him to do a post-2014 election deal with National with Collins as leader

sidecar bob

3rd May 2020, 20:26

We were discussing Dave's retardation weren't we?:msn-wink:

Gearup

3rd May 2020, 20:39

Lolz, they all appear to be a pack of self serving ratbags regardless of ideology.

husaberg

3rd May 2020, 20:46

We were discussing Dave's retardation weren't we?:msn-wink:

No we were not ,you were, I was discussing Collins was big on law and order unless it was following it. then you interjected as a distraction.
I was previously discussing the fact even in Nationals polls they are sinking........

jasonu

4th May 2020, 05:05

Not really, He admitted it rather then lied about it......

It's not like he had a choice.

husaberg

4th May 2020, 08:07

It's not like he had a choice.

You are kidding. youre Goat. Has never fessed upwhen he clearly gets it wrong
https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-24-at-1.50.56-PM.pnghttps://god.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2020/02/trump-caronavirus-tweet--833x436.jpg
https://www.healthnewsreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-21-at-12.21.27-PM.pnghttps://www.healthnewsreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-21-at-5.57.40-PM.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMAT3B4nDpU

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/09/04/22/18078896-0-image-a-10_1567631234283.jpg
https://media14.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/201909/n_mj_mememicro_190905_1920x1080.jpg
then the tax returns
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/07/trump-tax-returns-subpoena-new-york-federal-judge

sidecar bob

4th May 2020, 08:07

No we were not ,you were, I was discussing Collins was big on law and order unless it was following it. then you interjected as a distraction.
I was previously discussing the fact even in Nationals polls they are sinking........

This whole debacle hasn't done your girlfriend any harm.
You always respected the teacher that gave you detention.
Hopefully they get in for another term, so they get to clean up their own mess they have made, by throwing money loosely at this covid thing willy nilly.

husaberg

4th May 2020, 08:20

This whole debacle hasn't done your girlfriend any harm.
You always respected the teacher that gave you detention.
Hopefully they get in for another term, so they get to clean up their own mess they have made, by throwing money loosely at this covid thing willy nilly.
Odd considering the Leader of the Nats was as popular as turd in a goldfish bowl for at least 2 years prior to Covet 19. Yet you believe the cause is a disease rather than simply her being better at her job.
beside if you read the polls its the party that has gained rather then a the labour leader.
As for throwing money willy nilly, So what was the National party response to to the GFC?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4859373/A-history-of-bailouts
https://d1sbbxsc396o7p.cloudfront.net/i/290895/new-zealand-government-net-debt-gdp-1972-2018-data.png
they didnt just throw money at it, they threw money they borrowed and never repaid, at it.

sidecar bob

4th May 2020, 09:01

Odd considering the Leader of the Nats was as popular as turd in a goldfish bowl for at least 2 years prior to Covet 19. Yet you believe the cause is a disease rather than simply her being better at her job.
beside if you read the polls its the party that has gained rather then a the labour leader.
As for throwing money willy nilly, So what was the National
they didnt just throw money at it, they threw money they borrowed and never repaid, at it.

Yes yes, and I'm sure you're right.
It was astonishingly easy to receive the employee handout apparently. I'm aware of someone that said they had three months subsidy in their bank account moments after they submitted the form, which appears to have been created in haste.
What now that a fair percentage of workers have returned to employment after a month?
The person I am referring to is smart enough not to spend three months income in one month, but I'd bet that's more the exception than the rule.
Watch them give up on getting most of it back, much like the Helen Clark student loans, of which most was spent at nightclubs.

pritch

4th May 2020, 09:49

The person I am referring to is smart enough not to spend three months income in one month, but I'd bet that's more the exception than the rule.

There was talk of a handout to everybody in the country with the intention that it be spent immediately. The idea being to jump start the economy and salting the money away wouldn't achieve that.

The fastest way to inject money into the economy is to give it to beneficiaries, they have to spend it immediately. Obviously though that doesn't appeal to all political parties.

It'll be interesting to see how the government handles the ongoing effects of the virus, but so far we are doing better than most other countries. And no, I didn't vote for her.

jasonu

4th May 2020, 10:22

then you interjected as a distraction.
...

You are kidding. youre Goat. Has never fessed upwhen he clearly gets it wrong
https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Screen-Shot-2020-02-24-at-1.50.56-PM.pnghttps://god.dailydot.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2020/02/trump-caronavirus-tweet--833x436.jpg
https://www.healthnewsreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-21-at-12.21.27-PM.pnghttps://www.healthnewsreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-21-at-5.57.40-PM.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMAT3B4nDpU

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/09/04/22/18078896-0-image-a-10_1567631234283.jpg
https://media14.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/201909/n_mj_mememicro_190905_1920x1080.jpg
then the tax returns
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/oct/07/trump-tax-returns-subpoena-new-york-federal-judge

Fucking hypocrite

eldog

4th May 2020, 15:13

:Offtopic:

You always respected the teacher that gave you detention.

Ummm NO

Only if it was deserved.

Always loved having strict female teachers....
Always worked harder for them. :spanking:

george formby

4th May 2020, 15:21

Ummm NO

Only if it was deserved.

Always loved having strict female teachers....
Always worked harder for them.

I am soooooo tempted to mis-quote that.

Ahh, Miss Humphries - point out my English failings one more time. Please.. Wear the tartan skirt.

Is this thread heading into personal, not political, domination and bondage now?

:clap:

Gearup

4th May 2020, 16:46

I am soooooo tempted to mis-quote that.

Ahh, Miss Humphries - point out my English failings one more time. Please.. Wear the tartan skirt.

Is this thread heading into personal, not political, domination and bondage now?

:clap:

It depends what you had in mind regarding Miss Humphries I suppose...

James Deuce

4th May 2020, 16:50

He'll be lucky to survive until the election, Paula and Crusher will be sharpening their knives.

Nope. Luxon will be boss Nat very, very shortly.

sidecar bob

4th May 2020, 17:11

Nope. Luxon will be boss Nat very, very shortly.

I agree, but they're keeping him clean for the minute, the same as red team did with Jacinda.

eldog

4th May 2020, 17:13

Nope. Luxon will be boss Nat very, very shortly.

If he's the same guy I have heard other people talking about then it should be interesting.

Not that I know anything about him.

My you, I thought it would be interesting way back before Trump was elected and that has been entertaining.

sidecar bob

4th May 2020, 17:14

If he's the same guy I have heard other people talking about then it should be interesting.

Not that I know anything about him.

My you, I thought it would be interesting way back before Trump was elected and that has been entertaining.

Ex CEO of Air NZ.

Oakie

4th May 2020, 17:21

Nope. Luxon will be boss Nat very, very shortly.

I think he will be boss eventually but he's not even an MP yet so it probably won't be this year. He'd surely have to do some time as an MP first so it'll be interesting to see if they throw someone else in after Bridges' almost inevitable demise should he go after the election ... assuming the Nats can't cobble together a government.

husaberg

4th May 2020, 18:23

Fucking hypocrite

Trump is indeed hypocrite
My example of trumps lies wasn't a misdirection, it was but a simple example how that what you wrote was clearly wrong.
You wrongly claim that one Politician owned up, "as he had no choice but to", when your own President steadfastly refuses to admit he is wrong, on a epic scale.
The exact same way that Crusher did exactly the same. She was clearly caught in a lie, yet still steadfastly refuses to acknowledge it.
It is you that has the double-standards Jason.

James Deuce

4th May 2020, 19:09

I agree, but they're keeping him clean for the minute, the same as red team did with Jacinda.

Same as they did with Key in the run up to his first election.

James Deuce

4th May 2020, 19:10

I think he will be boss eventually but he's not even an MP yet so it probably won't be this year. He'd surely have to do some time as an MP first so it'll be interesting to see if they throw someone else in after Bridges' almost inevitable demise should he go after the election ... assuming the Nats can't cobble together a government.

Doesn't need to be an MP. Just leader of the National Party and #1 on the list.

James Deuce

4th May 2020, 19:12

pritch

4th May 2020, 19:48

It would seem that some existing National MPs are feeling pressure to make a move before Luxon enters stage right. Collins has taken to Twitter presumably to raise her profile but so far she has just managed to look bitchy.

That 'Crusher' nickname is a misnomer, she never crushed anything. When the then government finally did get to crush something Anne Tolley was minister and all they had was the body shell of a little shit box car. The owner had removed the engine, transmission and running gear.

Hard to recall a more hollow 'victory'. Embarrassing.

Gearup

4th May 2020, 19:49

Smooth as a baby's butt. Able to talk the language of anyone interested in business. Not one drop of compassion.

Sums up most CEO's I've met.

eldog

4th May 2020, 21:36

Smooth as a baby's butt. Able to talk the language of anyone interested in business. Not one drop of compassion.

Law and order maybe the topic of the day then.

Black Knight

5th May 2020, 08:32

Do National really want to win the election-look at the three years worth of absolute economic shit you would be inheriting

sidecar bob

5th May 2020, 09:10

Law and order maybe the topic of the day then.

As long as it's not CGT.
You can bet the current lot will introduce that across the board at the first budget after next election, if not before.
They have to get their hands on some more other oeoples money somehow.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12327634
100 million to reserve motel units for homeless just in case?
They could have had 250 houses for that, permanently housed 1600 homeless people, and still had the asset at the end, that would then be worth more than the initial outlay.
It's easy to throw other people's money away with nothing to show for it.

pete376403

5th May 2020, 09:43

As long as it's not CGT.
You can bet the current lot will introduce that across the board at the first budget after next election, if not before.
They have to get their hands on some more other oeoples money somehow.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12327634
100 million to reserve motel units for homeless just in case?
They could have had 250 houses for that, permanently housed 1600 homeless people, and still had the asset at the end, that would then be worth more than the initial outlay.
It's easy to throw other people's money away with nothing to show for it.

And how long would it take to build those 250 houses, starting with a green fields site? The homeless people need housing now, not 12 -18 months or more down the tracks. Mind you the job might have been a bit easier if Housing NZ, while under the previous governments policy of getting out of social housing, hadn't been so keen to demolish numerous state owned housing units using the "earthquake prone building risk" excuse and then leaving the resultant land empty. Not sure where you live but in Wellington (Taita, NaeNae, Pomare) lots of perfectly adequate (not flash but a roof over the persons head) units were demolished because of the perceived "risk" of a brick chimney. Only now is some of that land starting to be utilised.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98403809/hnz-meeting-to-discuss-development-of-longvacant-epuni-land?rm=m

sidecar bob

5th May 2020, 09:50

And how long would it take to build those 250 houses, starting with a green fields site? The homeless people need housing now, not 12 -18 months or more down the tracks. Mind you the job might have been a bit easier if Housing NZ, while under the previous governments policy of getting out of social housing, hadn't been so keen to demolish numerous state owned housing units using the "earthquake prone building risk" excuse and then leaving the resultant land empty. Not sure where you live but in Wellington (Taita, NaeNae, Pomare) lots of perfectly adequate (not flash but a roof over the persons head) units were demolished because of the perceived "risk" of a brick chimney. Only now is some of that land starting to be utilised.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/98403809/hnz-meeting-to-discuss-development-of-longvacant-epuni-land?rm=m

Using the modeling this govt was trotting out prior to election, most of them should have been built by now.
They could also invest in the pre owned housing market, or is that too simple?
You only have to log on to trademe to find that there are in excess of 30,000 homes currently for sale in all areas, in all budgets on that sales platform alone in NZ.
The Govt either rent properties and prop up capitalists in the process, or buy the properties themselves.
The country really is run by a bunch of money wasting idiots with no idea how to make a dollar go the distance. If they buy them, essentially they still have the money, as an appreciating asset.
Also, you don't go into why the homeless suddenly need these houses right now.

eldog

5th May 2020, 11:17

As long as it's not CGT.
You can bet the current lot will introduce that across the board at the first budget after next election, if not before.
It's easy to throw other people's money away with nothing to show for it.

Definitely something that may happen.
Increase GST etc.

Yes, rocking upto a motel and your neighbour obviously isn't paying for anything.....
Does avoid paying for maintenance, update, insulation or other new incentives to improve buildings themselves.

Having suburbs of state housing with little industry or options for work won't help either.

husaberg

5th May 2020, 18:15

As long as it's not CGT.
You can bet the current lot will introduce that across the board at the first budget after next election, if not before.
They have to get their hands on some more other oeoples money somehow.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12327634
100 million to reserve motel units for homeless just in case?
They could have had 250 houses for that, permanently housed 1600 homeless people, and still had the asset at the end, that would then be worth more than the initial outlay.
It's easy to throw other people's money away with nothing to show for it.

You do realize Nation over spend their housing budget by 48 million dollars a year on Motels?
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/12/national-spent-50m-putting-homeless-in-hotels.html

where was your moaning then......................

As for the CGT
odd that the former leader of Act Rodger Douglas wanted one also odd the former National leader and Governor of the reseve bank Don Brash did so as well.

The Brash Committee, chaired by Dr Donald Brash recomended one as has virtually every
consultative committee appointed to report to the government on taxation
reform since December 1987 has overwhelmingly recommended the
introduction of a capital gains tax."
http://www.nzlii.org/nz/journals/AukULawRw/2014/7.pdf
the problem is we need to raise the pension to at least 68 and to add in a CGT both National and labour are to gutless to do either.

Murray

5th May 2020, 18:33

You do realize Nation over spend their housing budget by 48 million dollars a year on Motels?
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/12/national-spent-50m-putting-homeless-in-hotels.html

where was your moaning then......................

Overspent their budget - very vague

How much spent versus current spending - say April 2020 vs April 2017

I overspent my shopping budget so what. Next door neighbour spent twice as much as me!

mashman

5th May 2020, 19:26

husaberg

5th May 2020, 19:48

Overspent their budget - very vague

How much spent versus current spending - say April 2020 vs April 2017

I overspent my shopping budget so what. Next door neighbour spent twice as much as me!

Did you read he article Murray? its not vauge they budgeted 2 million and spend 50 million on motels for emergency housing whilst at the same time selling off houses stating there was no housing crisis.
they were the same spend of money, spent on the same thing, only Bob objected to labour spending the same amount of money on the same thing as National did year in year out previously wherehe never complained once under National..................

pritch

5th May 2020, 20:42

It would seem likely that when the world emerges from this pandemic there will be major changes, some of which will not be popular with everybody. A CGT might be one of the least radical.

Some of the world's economic powerhouses are not handling the current situation at all well, if they strike serious trouble the existing world economic system could be in for a major overhaul. New Zealand is too small to remain untouched by world events.

mashman

6th May 2020, 08:29

The Opportunities Party proposes $250 per week universal basic income (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/opportunities-party-proposes-250-per-week-universal-basic-income)

Finland, one of the very few countries to try it on a small level, said it was great for de hooman, but realised that it couldn't be afforded to be rolled out to everyone, and they have a better economy than NZ.

Social democrats have got one too that actually makes a little more sense, because they're gonna create their own money. It still ignores the problem of a virus taking out 5% of a population and the associated loss of income that's supposed to be paying for the UBI... but hey, it also pisses all over their environmental policy and it all devolves into fiction from there on in.

sidecar bob

6th May 2020, 08:41

Did you read he article Murray? its not vauge they budgeted 2 million and spend 50 million on motels for emergancy housing whilst atthe same time selling off houses stating there was no housing crisis.
they were the same spend of money, spent on the same thing, only Bob objected to labour spending the same amount of money on the same thing as National did year in year out previously wherehe never complained once under National..................

Its a stupid idea whatever color shirt you are wearing.
It doesn't take a smart person to work it how to spend a dollar, while also keeping that dollar while inflation proofing that dollar, while also having a third party pay off the debt & interest on that dollar, rather than simply flushing it down the toilet, never to be seen again.
It's not a competition & I appreciate your mental image of me seems to be that I'm dressed in blue from head to toe, but it's a fuckin retarded waste of money & shows poor forethought wether a red govt, a blue govt, or the postman does it.
Just because you can find some evidence where some other fuckheads did the same thing years ago doesn't make it any less of a stupid idea.
I'm sure there is plenty of prior instances of people jumping off tall buildings too.

sidecar bob

6th May 2020, 08:43

husaberg

6th May 2020, 16:23

Its a stupid idea whatever color shirt you are wearing.
It doesn't take a smart person to work it how to spend a dollar, while also keeping that dollar while inflation proofing that dollar, while also having a third party pay off the debt & interest on that dollar, rather than simply flushing it down the toilet, never to be seen again.
It's not a competition & I appreciate your mental image of me seems to be that I'm dressed in blue from head to toe, but it's a fuckin retarded waste of money & shows poor forethought wether a red govt, a blue govt, or the postman does it.
Just because you can find some evidence where some other fuckheads did the same thing years ago doesn't make it any less of a stupid idea.
I'm sure there is plenty of prior instances of people jumping off tall buildings too.

if it doesnt take a smart person So why did you never complain previously? what you said in the first sentence was the complete premise of why state housing was built.
why only complain now? Were you unaware of the previous government spending 50 million dollars plus a year on Motels ?
Because i raised it a few times on this forum?

Oakie

6th May 2020, 17:13

The Opportunities Party proposes $250 per week universal basic income (https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/opportunities-party-proposes-250-per-week-universal-basic-income)

Finland, one of the very few countries to try it on a small level, said it was great for de hooman, but realised that it couldn't be afforded to be rolled out to everyone, and they have a better economy than NZ.

The other part of their plan is to also have a flat tax rate of 33%. This means that a person doing 40 hours at minimum wage on tax code M currently pays $123.96 tax but this would go up to $249.48 so they immediately lose $125.52 of their $250 in tax.
Smoke and mirrors.

sidecar bob

6th May 2020, 17:48

if it doesnt take a smart person So why did you never complain previously? what you said in the first sentence was the complete premise of why state housing was built.
why only complain now? Were you unaware of the previous government spending 50 million dollars plus a year on Motels ?
Because i raised it a few times on this forum?

Don't assume that i read everything you post.
As I said, its awaste whoever's is doing it.
If blue team get in I'll show you I'm not as one eyed as you, by sailing into them if they do dumb shit.
I doubt they will get in, the tooth monster is smelling of roses at the moment, fuck knows why.

husaberg

6th May 2020, 18:16

Don't assume that i read everything you post.
As I said, its awaste whoever's is doing it.
If blue team get in I'll show you I'm not as one eyed as you, by sailing into them if they do dumb shit.
I doubt they will get in, the tooth monster is smelling of roses at the moment, fuck knows why.
odd you reply to it.............
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131123789#post1131123789
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131114639&highlight=motels#post1131114639
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131114591#post1131114591

One would suspect the labour leader is popular as she is not Simon Bridges or like Simon Bridges.......

sidecar bob

6th May 2020, 18:28

odd you reply to it.............
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131123789#post1131123789
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131114639&highlight=motels#post1131114639
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131114591#post1131114591

One would suspect the labour leader is popular as she is not Simon Bridges or like Simon Bridges.......

You have too much time on your hands.
And yes I must have said half a dozen times, Bridges is a helmet without equal.

mashman

6th May 2020, 18:50

Anyone that thinks $250 per week is somehow going to save them deserves $250 a week.:facepalm:

It would seem that that's the best that the country can do. But to be fair, anyone thinking that more money, or money in general, is gonna do any saving in general has ignored history to date and could quite easily be seen as barking mad. The evidence says so. I just happen to agree with the evidence :laugh:

The other part of their plan is to also have a flat tax rate of 33%. This means that a person doing 40 hours at minimum wage on tax code M currently pays $123.96 tax but this would go up to $249.48 so they immediately lose $125.52 of their $250 in tax.
Smoke and mirrors.

Yeah, but they still get $100+ risk free in the long run. Speaking of which, kind of, I wonder how the RFRM stuff will go down with the same cat (snigger).

sidecar bob

6th May 2020, 19:08

The other part of their plan is to also have a flat tax rate of 33%. This means that a person doing 40 hours at minimum wage on tax code M currently pays $123.96 tax but this would go up to $249.48 so they immediately lose $125.52 of their $250 in tax.
Smoke and mirrors.

Great idea. The tax rates are around the wrong way anyway as it is.
Low income earners should pay more & high earners less so the tax rate per person is similar.

husaberg

6th May 2020, 19:21

You have too much time on your hands.
And yes I must have said half a dozen times, Bridges is a helmet without equal.

I think you could substitute the word time for basic talent and familiarity with how to use the KB search function.
it took less than a minute........
ps you have only said hes a a helmet once previously, as far as i am aware
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131123789&highlight=helmet+bridges#post1131123789

hes a smary git who should do whats best for his party and resign.
pretty sure the only reason he got in was he wasn't Crusher or Joyce or Benefit

sidecar bob

6th May 2020, 19:37

I think you could substitute the word time for basic talent and familiarity with how to use the KB search function.
it took less than a minute........
ps you have only said hes a a helmet once previously, as far as i am aware
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/183438-The-2017-Election-Thread?p=1131123789&highlight=helmet+bridges#post1131123789

hes a smary git who should do whats best for his party and resign.
pretty sure the only reason he got in was he wasn't Crusher or Joyce or Benefit

Ok, you win.

Madness

6th May 2020, 21:44

...there already exists a successful supply chain that serves the recreational scene...

It could be argued that there is significant room for improvement on the continuity of supply, just saying.

Smooth as a baby's butt. Able to talk the language of anyone interested in business. Not one drop of compassion.

So, he’s perfect!

mashman

6th May 2020, 22:29

It could be argued that there is significant room for improvement on the continuity of supply, just saying.

Absolutely. Legal status and ROI play a large part in that I would suspect.

Swoop

8th May 2020, 15:15

... the tooth monster is smelling of roses at the moment, fuck knows why.
Simply because of all the PR that is happening. Note that all the "announcements" on just about anything have her dinner-manglers in front of the cameras for as long as possible.
"Cult of personality" has a face to it, and the easily deluded are well and truly swept up by it.

As for taxes. We will be seeing a shitload introduced by these incompetents in an attempt to dig themselves out of the economic hole they made. Australia must be laughing.

pritch

8th May 2020, 18:35

the tooth monster is smelling of roses at the moment, fuck knows why.

Ummm does this help? This is from the UK Financial Times, their graphics are highly regarded and are used in the US and elsewhere.

pritch

8th May 2020, 18:51

If that last one didn't help try this?

“O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!" - Robert Burns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFeuoicxR8

Bonez

9th May 2020, 20:42

Micheal Fyne exonerated of all charges:yes: Poor snowflakes.....

Swoop

9th May 2020, 21:04

No surprises here.

Just that you are not allowed to criticize Queen BOHICA...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330745

pete376403

18th May 2020, 22:44

Latest poll doesn't look to good for Soimon. About the only comfort he can take is that he rates marginally higher than Collins as preferred PM

TheDemonLord

19th May 2020, 10:10

Ummm does this help? This is from the UK Financial Times, their graphics are highly regarded and are used in the US and elsewhere.

Now factor in population size to that graph, to give a per-capita figure, it will look radically different.

pritch

19th May 2020, 13:51

Now factor in population size to that graph, to give a per-capita figure, it will look radically different.

You are confused. When that graph was published it reflected the number of cases. Population size is completely irrelevant. If you did factor population size in it wouldn't look any better for the US. They have something like 3% of the world's population and 30% of the world's Corona cases.
And climbing.

The Navajo Nation is currently suffering Covid 19 cases and is unable to get meaningful supplies or help from the federal government. They asked for PPE and were sent body bags.

In the late 1840s when Ireland was suffering a potato famine the Navajo people apparently sent money to Ireland to help out. The Irish have now returned the favour sending money to the Navajo. Medicine Sans Frontieres have sent people.

Just fucking marvellous. "The greatest nation on earth" needs help from an international aid agency, that makes them about equal with Afghanistan.

Laava

19th May 2020, 14:04

.
. "The greatest nation on earth".
North Mexico?

gonzo_akl

19th May 2020, 15:51

Now factor in population size to that graph, to give a per-capita figure, it will look radically different.

not by a lot

TheDemonLord

19th May 2020, 15:55

You are confused. When that graph was published it reflected the number of cases. Population size is completely irrelevant. If you did factor population size in it wouldn't look any better for the US. They have something like 3% of the world's population and 30% of the world's Corona cases.
And climbing.

Of course it matters - you are using absolute figures. More People will mean more cases (unless you are China, then the number of cases will be whatever Winnie the Pooh says it is)

Just on that Graph alone, comparing the UK to the US - the US has like 5 times the population

husaberg

19th May 2020, 16:53

not by a lot

ya wasting your time with him

You are confused. When that graph was published it reflected the number of cases. Population size is completely irrelevant. If you did factor population size in it wouldn't look any better for the US. They have something like 3% of the world's population and 30% of the world's Corona cases.
And climbing.

The Navajo Nation is currently suffering Covid 19 cases and is unable to get meaningful supplies or help from the federal government. They asked for PPE and were sent body bags.
In the late 1840s when Ireland was suffering a potato famine the Navajo people apparently sent money to Ireland to help out. The Irish have now returned the favour sending money to the Navajo. Medicine Sans Frontieres have sent people.
Just fucking marvellous. "The greatest nation on earth" needs help from an international aid agency, that makes them about equal with Afghanistan.
if he only had a wall and some bleach and if the media didnt report the words he said Trump would be doing great

345957

odd how these nat supporters have gone all quiet about the polls

Labour has failed miserably in keeping its election promises. That coupled with all the other blunders horseface has mishandled, Curran, Lees Galloway, that Murray woman who yelled at her people for missing that photo opportuniddy, etc National has a great chance.
:clap::clap::clap:

345960345959

husaberg

21st May 2020, 10:19

opps he did it again
Paula Benefit
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/121567727/simon-bridges-slip-of-the-tongue-calls-paula-bennett-paula-benefit-again
despite polling slightly less than Mashman did at the last election "I'm the leader and I'm staying that way," Bridges said.
He said did not believe there were rumblings about his leadership.
Word is due for a no confidence vote next week the only poll he is ever expected to win............

husaberg

22nd May 2020, 17:54

345977

shit its going to be funny when Luxton rolls Muller post election, they will not even have to change the posters...........

Simon, as he said at the end of his speech......he was proud to have been leader of NZ (.....s national party)

interviewer to Tod Muller
you have had 6 year in Parliament and zero years in cabinet
yet your deputy has had 12 years in paliment an 3 years in cabinet
So why is it she your deputy

legalising Dope..... nope
Euthanasia..... nope

Katman

22nd May 2020, 18:23

345977

shit is going to be funny when Luxton rolls Muller post election, they will not even have to change the posters...........

Simon as he said at the end of his speech leader of NZ (national party)

I suspect you'll be busy over the next few days digging up whatever dirt you can find on Todd Muller then.

pete376403

22nd May 2020, 18:44

husaberg

22nd May 2020, 20:27

I suspect you'll be busy over the next few days digging up whatever dirt you can find on Todd Muller then.

Hardly the first time your mouth wrote a cheque your brain cant cash now is it.
whilst personally i am glad they finally euthanised siomon. Berridges. i do feel a little sorry for him.
You on the other hand i doubt you are even aware of what empathy is, being a narcissistic bellend and all.
BTW have you found a single qualified mechanic to back up your assertion that the Geet engine is the work of a genius yet?

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174599-Alternative-fuels

Some further info.
http://rebuilding.geetinternational.com/
He sounds like the modern day Nikola Tesla.

David Pantone, the man behind GEET international, took over the business of promoting the GEET engine from his father Paul, who claims to have been given the technology in 1975 by an angel named 'Mrs. Cunningham'.

F5 Dave

22nd May 2020, 21:06

Not sure if National need another devout catholic pushing a personal agenda (Both English and Muller opposed the abortion reform and the euthanasia bills) and Muller will no doubt will oppose the upcoming cannabis reform. He is more than welcome to his own beliefs but should not be able to push them onto the country.
As for Nikki Kaye, I find it hard to get past how she, when diagnosed with cancer and because of being a politician, was treated and cured in the same or less time than it would take a member of the public to get the first appointment to see a specialist. So much for being one of the people.

On the bright side, no more of Paula Benefit in second chair.

The Devil will take care of you. For do we not have a loving God?

Who created earth and the heavens and all around? Who then created a barbecue to burn the souls of those who did not believe for eternity?

Do not belittle the Catholic faith. For did not God send an alter boy to tend for his dutiful servant's very dry foreskin?
Yay for I am the Lord and my work shall be done. And swallowed for that matter.

Kickaha

22nd May 2020, 21:18

The Devil will take care of you. For do we not have a loving God?

Who created earth and the heavens and all around? Who then created a barbecue to burn the souls of those who did not believe for eternity?

Do not belittle the Catholic faith. For did not God send an alter boy to tend for his dutiful servant's very dry foreskin?
Yay for I am the Lord and my work shall be done. And swallowed for that matter.

Sounds like Friday night drinks at Dave's place are all go

F5 Dave

22nd May 2020, 21:59

Emerson Big Rig. Orange Roughy is better but lower octane.

Danger Mouse

23rd May 2020, 09:53

mashman

23rd May 2020, 10:27

Exactly. Politicians are meant to push for their constituents. Not themselves

He is both politician and constituent. The obvious solution would be for constituency wide referenda to be held on issues that he has a potential conflict with... but such direct democracy tools would be problematic for many reasons, not least of which being that the electorate could then direct their representative to vote for something that is against the principles of the politician, and quite possibly against the policy of the party, shock horror

Swoop

10th June 2020, 17:17

sidecar bob

10th June 2020, 17:39

Just putting this here...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12338776

After all the bleating, they could have just listened to the previous gubbinment's conclusion... but no, just waste more taxpayer's money.

They were going to be in there by Christmas before last.
I'm a little disappointed, they could have had my vote this year if they had kept any of their promises.
We can throw that one in with Kiwibuild.

pritch

10th June 2020, 18:05

They were going to be in there by Christmas before last.
I'm a little disappointed, they could have had my vote this year if they had kept any of their promises.

My only sympathies are with the locals, but I don't recall National keeping their promises either.

On another note, I hope the Labour Dept got a rocket up the arse and a reorganisation following their idiot level response to the incident. Twenty odd people involved in an underground explosion and phone calls to the Dept were greeted with a robot, "Our business hours are 9.00AM to 5.00PM"
or whatever. People should have been handed the arse card. But hey! Gummint!

Oakie

10th June 2020, 18:22

husaberg

10th June 2020, 18:53

Instead, the re-entry efforts are now essentially solely focused on gathering evidence in the "homicide of 29 men", Little told a select committee hearing this morning.

I get a bit pissed off at the fairly regular references to this being a murder or homicide from a few of those with a profile in this case. Obviously a tragedy and there was probably negligence but FFS, murder / homicide is deliberate killing ... which this obviously wasn't.

it was probably goes a fair bit beyond negligence when someone in charge of peoples safety deliberately dismisses safety concerns and misrepresents safety procedures and knowingly installs unsafe electrical equipment in gassy area, its goes far beyond maybe.
The company knowingly puts a higher priority on stock price than peoples lives.
Personally i wouldn't worry about what they find they made sure no one will be held responsable by the previous Govt breaking the law to sell out the families.

WorkSafe New Zealand initially laid 12 health and safety charges against Mr Whittall, but they were dropped after more than $3 million was paid to the victims' families.
In today's decision, the Supreme Court unanimously allowed the appeal and ruled the decision to offer no evidence was "an unlawful agreement to stifle prosecution".

WorkSafe New Zealand also conducted its own investigation to determine whether there had been any criminal offending or breaches of the legislation governing health and safety in employment.
That eventually led to the charges laid against Peter Whittall on the basis he had "directed, authorised ... or participated in" the breaches of the workplace safety legislation by Pike River Coal, together with allegations he breached his duties as an employee.
Those charges mainly related to the management of the risk of methane gas explosion at the mine and inadequacies in ventilation.
One of the companies contracting at the mine, VLI Drilling, pleaded guilty to three charges of breaching health and safety regulations and was ordered to pay $46,800.
Pike River Coal, which was then in receivership, was convicted on nine charges in April 2013.
Judge Farish found then that the company's failure to ventilate the mine sufficiently and to manage the risks associated with methane gas were a cause of the explosions.
It was fined $760,000 and was ordered to pay $3.41 million in reparations to the two survivors of the explosions and the families of the men who died, but the company was later wound up and no reparations were ever paid.

You seem to forget that the National party misnister of labour resigned as it was clear she was also also deemed responsable.

Wilkinson quit as labour minister yesterday after a damning royal commission of inquiry found a litany of failures by the Department of Labour (DOL) contributed to the deaths of 29 men in the mine.
Not to mention the govt pushed illegal deal to avoid a court case on the matter........

A secret deal was offered by solicitor, Stuart Grieve, on 16 October 2013, that in return for payment of $3.41 million dollars by Peter Whittle, that the Crown would drop all charges against Whittle.
On 12 December 2013, Judge Jane Farish dropped all charges against Peter Whittall, and an agreed sum of $3.41 million was offered by Peter Whittle as “compensation”.
The secret deal was finally made public on 27 February.

They were going to be in there by Christmas before last.
I'm a little disappointed, they could have had my vote this year if they had kept any of their promises.
We can throw that one in with Kiwibuild.

you make out they are two years behind, Yet they have been in the dift of over a year.
But dont let that fact get in the way of a good story after all.
The entered the Drift May 22 2019.
They were delayed by equipment and new health and safety rules, not ineptitude.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/west-coast/112896213/pike-river-reentry-finally-a-reality-after-eightyear-battle?rm=a

As i have pointed out to you on more occasions than once
The only people that promised that the mine was going to be re-entered and the bodies recovered was john Key.

He denied promising family members that the victims’ remains would be recovered. “I never promised anyone we would get the bodies out,” he said. “We promised family members that we would do everything we could to get the bodies out. We have done everything that we believe we possibly can.”

So did Key promise family members that the bodies would be recovered? Thanks to previously unseen video footage shown by 3 News on Monday, now we can hear for ourselves (2:10 min):
"The first thing is I’m here to give you absolute reassurance, we’re committed to getting the boys out, and nothing’s going to change that. So – when people try and tell you we’re not, they’re playing, I hate to say it, but they’re playing with your emotions."

The cost is a few flag referendums. likley less than the farm the national party brought the saudis or only enough to buy a few National MPs
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/276449/saudi-desert-farm-a-'sham'

Key said it couldnt be done safely yet it has thus far

Today 25 September 2014, Mr Key said re-entering the mine was not a practical option.
"We've spent millions of dollars trying to find a safe way in, but I can't

Yet you complain its not fast enough when its a million times faster than National ever managed.

Oral Questions—Questions to Ministers
Pike River Mine Disaster—Re-entry and Recovery Operation
9. RON MARK (Deputy Leader—NZ First) to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by his statement in relation to the Pike River Mine that "What I did promise is that we could do everything we can to get those bodies out"?

Rt Hon JOHN KEY (Prime Minister): Yes.

Ron Mark: Is he aware that non-mining contractors and personnel have been working on the reversible seal without breathing apparatus, which contradicts the risk assessment conducted by Solid Energy claiming that it could not be done, and vindicates the expert advice to the families of the 29 victims, as witnessed by Minister Barry in her last visit to the mine?

Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No. But what I am aware of is the advice that we have received from Solid Energy that the environment has not materially changed since the decision not to re-enter the drift was made in 2014.

Ron Mark: With recent testing results showing gas levels within the Pike River mine are safe enough for re-entry, will he now take steps to get the bodies out of the mine so that the families can have their men back and closure; if not, why not?

Rt Hon JOHN KEY: As the member will be aware, the decision to enter or not re-enter the mine is not one that I think a politician should make; nor have I ever claimed I could make. We have taken the best advice, or at least Solid Energy has, as the owner and occupier of the mine. As I have always said, one of the worst things we could do is now put at risk the lives of fellow New Zealanders, as a result of the tragedy.

Hon Damien O'Connor: Why will the Prime Minister not honour his commitment to the families and fund an independent expert to assess the situation at Pike River, not rely on the advice from Solid Energy, a company that the Government has, effectively, sold out?

Rt Hon JOHN KEY: I believe I have met all my commitments to the families.

pritch

11th June 2020, 14:33

homicide is deliberate killing ... which this obviously wasn't.

Not quite. Homicide is not synonymous with murder. Homicide can be the same as murder, but may also apply to death by accident or negligence.

Assuming the miners didn't commit suicide the use of the word homicide is entirely appropriate in this instance.

FJRider

11th June 2020, 15:57

it was probably goes a fair bit beyond negligence when someone in charge of peoples safety deliberately dismisses safety concerns and misrepresents safety procedures and knowingly installs unsafe electrical equipment in gassy area, its goes far beyond maybe.
The company knowingly puts a higher priority on stock price than peoples lives.
Personally i wouldn't worry about what they find they made sure no one will be held responsable by the previous Govt breaking the law to sell out the families.

You seem to forget that the National party misnister of labour resigned as it was clear she was also also deemed responsable.

Responsible ... because of her position as Minister of labour ... did not ensure her department had ensured all relevant (and officially required) safety measures were in place in the mine. Do you think the Minister should have been charged too perhaps ... ??

If so ... with what offense ... ??

Prior to this ... to use your own quote ...

Not to mention the govt pushed illegal deal to avoid a court case on the matter........

A secret deal was offered by solicitor, Stuart Grieve, on 16 October 2013, that in return for payment of $3.41 million dollars by Peter Whittle, that the Crown would drop all charges against Whittle.

So you are saying that this "Secret deal" was made on behalf of the Crown ... ???

Stuart is one of New Zealand’s pre-eminent Queen’s Counsel specialising in criminal law and trial advocacy.

A long-time leader of the criminal bar, Stuart has handled some of the most significant criminal cases over a lengthy period. He defended Renee Chignell in the Plumley-Walker case, Stephen Anderson charged with the murders at Raurimu, Brad Callaghan charged with the murder of Carmen Thomas and more recently acted for Pike River’s Peter Whittall.

Your own Quotes ...

On 12 December 2013, Judge Jane Farish dropped all charges against Peter Whittall, and an agreed sum of $3.41 million was offered by Peter Whittle as “compensation”.
The secret deal was finally made public on 27 February.

Judge Farish found then that the company's failure to ventilate the mine sufficiently and to manage the risks associated with methane gas were a cause of the explosions.
It was fined $760,000 and was ordered to pay $3.41 million in reparations to the two survivors of the explosions and the families of the men who died, but the company was later wound up and no reparations were ever paid.

Actions between any person and their Lawyer in ... the course of their defense ... are usually not revealed to the public prior to cases being heard in Court.

The Company was wound up ... so reparations could not be paid from there. So the "Secret deal" was made. Agreed Peter Whittle should have faced charges ... but the family's of those killed and the survivors got the result Judge Farish originally ordered against the Pike River mine.

https://stuartgrieveqc.com/

husaberg

11th June 2020, 17:40

The Supreme Court unanimously allowed the appeal and ruled the decision to offer no evidence was "an unlawful agreement to stifle prosecution".

The Supreme Court, however, noted that Judge Farish did not have all of the information before her at that time.
She did not know the payment of $3.41million was on the condition that WorkSafe offer no evidence.

Whittall initially faced 12 health and safety charges. All were dropped in December 2013 even though WorkSafe believed it had enough evidence to prosecute. It said the charges were dropped because of public interest considerations

The Supreme Court noted the initial discussions on resolving the charges were originated by WorkSafe’s lawyer.
Mr Whittall’s lawyer, however, replied on the basis a voluntary payment would only be made if the charges against Mr Whittall were not proceeded with.

The letter, written by Stuart Grieve QC on October 16, 2013, suggested the agreement could be wrapped up and payment made by the third anniversary of the disaster on November 19.
Although both the Whittall camp and the MBIE have vehemently denied that the $3.41 million payment to the Pike victims in December was “blood money”, the Grieve letter makes clear that the offer was contingent on the ministry dropping the 12 charges filed against Whittall under the Health and Safety in Employment Act.

The letter, released this week to the Listener under the Official Information Act, proposed that:

• the ministry not proceed with the charges against Whittall by advising the court that no evidence would be offered in support of any charges;

• a private meeting be arranged at which Whittall would “express sympathy” on behalf of the company to the families and survivors and convey his “personal empathy and condolences”;

• each of the company’s directors at the time of the explosion be asked to attend the meeting; and

• any public statement by the MBIE and/or the Crown about the withdrawal of the charges be made in terms agreed with Grieve.

Grieve’s letter foretold a long and costly legal battle if the MBIE pressed ahead with the prosecution and indicated the former Department of Labour’s inspectorate, which had become part of the ministry, would be the butt of potentially uncomfortable evidence.
lastly guess which minister was responsible for worksafe back then? guess who resigned the day the report was released.............

guess which department had said this prior
‘I WISH TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR, AGAIN, THAT THERE WAS NO SUCH ARRANGEMENT BETWEEN THE DEFENCE AND PROSECUTION.’’ – BRETT MURRAY, GENERAL MANAGER, WORKSAFE HIGH HAZARDS

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/344548/pike-river-prosecution-withdrawal-unlawful-supreme-court
https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/currently-social-issues/pike-river-supreme-court-ruling-confirms-justice-is-not-for-sale
https://www.al.nz/still-questions-about-whittalls-3-41m-pike-deal/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/99166885/worksafe-decision-to-drop-pike-river-charges-unlawful
https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/assets/cases/2017/mrao.pdf

FJRider

11th June 2020, 19:47

The Supreme Court unanimously allowed the appeal and ruled the decision to offer no evidence was "an unlawful agreement to stifle prosecution".

BUT ... IT WORKED ... ;)

The Supreme Court, however, noted that Judge Farish did not have all of the information before her at that time.

She did not know the payment of $3.41million was on the condition that WorkSafe offer no evidence.

So ... two wrongs DO make it right ... right ... ?? :pinch:

And if she did know ... she wasn't saying anything ... ;)

Whittall initially faced 12 health and safety charges. All were dropped in December 2013 even though WorkSafe believed it had enough evidence to prosecute. It said the charges were dropped because of public interest considerations.

If they continued with the prosecution ... they would know (Knew ??) Wittall would fight it. Win or lose ... Wittall would be unlikely to have $3.41 million available afterwards ... ;)

The Supreme Court noted the initial discussions on resolving the charges were originated by WorkSafe’s lawyer.

They knew if they continued with the prosecution ... they then knew Wittall would fight it. Win or lose ... Wittall would be unlikely to have $3.41 million available afterwards ... ;)

Mr Whittall’s lawyer, however, replied on the basis a voluntary payment would only be made if the charges against Mr Whittall were not proceeded with.

A good defense plan.

And did I mention ... IT WORKED ... :sweatdrop

The letter, released this week to the Listener under the Official Information Act, proposed that:

• the ministry not proceed with the charges against Whittall by advising the court that no evidence would be offered in support of any charges;

• a private meeting be arranged at which Whittall would “express sympathy” on behalf of the company to the families and survivors and convey his “personal empathy and condolences”;
sup:
• each of the company’s directors at the time of the explosion be asked to attend the meeting; and

• any public statement by the MBIE and/or the Crown about the withdrawal of the charges be made in terms agreed with Grieve.

Grieve’s letter foretold a long and costly legal battle if the MBIE pressed ahead with the prosecution and indicated the former Department of Labour’s inspectorate, which had become part of the ministry, would be the butt of potentially uncomfortable evidence
lastly guess which minister was responsible for worksafe back then? guess who resigned the day the report was released.............

By this bit alone ... makes it quite clear ... they knew a long drawn out (and costly) court case would follow ... if they pressed with the prosecution.

And $3.41 million went to the people that were entitled to it.

A good (all round) face saving plan ... AND ... IT WORKED ... :2thumbsup:

Such court cases are not rare ... usually held in closed courts. Most are not read about in the court pages of any Newspaper ... :no:

Such is the LEGAL system in most Western countries ... :yes:

husaberg

11th June 2020, 20:35

Adds to ignore.
Someone who is neither a lawyer or even mildly intelligent, yet claims to know more the the NZ Supreme court......... most would cal that a bit of a reach......

That the GOVT department with the knowledge of the govt broke the law in selling justice, then lied to the judge about and it was proven so by the NZ supreme court to have been illegal.
These are all indisputable facts as proven in the highest courts on NZ backed by documents. Also that the monister resigned the day the report was released is a fact,
But feel free to claim you know better when its clear to anyone with more intelligence than a amoeba that you do not.........

It is clear you know nxt to nothing about the event or the aftermath or court cases or even the reentry, yet lack the insight to ever comprehend you lack of knowledge before typing out enything.
Maybe you should argue a few other points i neither made inferred or even suggested, whist totally missing the point.
Then stut around the chess table claiming a win........
https://www.chargrilled.co.nz/t-shirts/prodimages/staticimages/square/m0arguingwithidiotsislikeplayingchesswithapidgeon_ m_Grey.jpg

FJRider

11th June 2020, 21:29

Adds to ignore.

Yes please ... but could you hurry up wih it ?? ... :2thumbsup:

Someone who is neither a lawyer or even mildly intelligent, yet claims to know more the the NZ Supreme court.........

I call it as I see it. Just like you do (but you seem a little sort-sighted), but if you have a valid argument against what I've posted ... lets hear it. Mild abuse is not a valid argument though. Seemingly though ... it is the only (petty) argument you can resort to when you have nothing else to use.

That the GOVT department with the knowledge of the govt broke the law in selling justice, then lied to the judge about and it was proven so by the NZ supreme court to have been illegal.

Have you not noticed ... it's not the Government anymore ... ?? And are there any Ministers seen to have broken any the rules ... still in
Parliament .. ??

maybe you should argue a few other points i neither made inferred or even suggested whist totally missing the point.

As you wish ... at your own request ... :bleh:

You could post about things you know about. It is unlikely that there is any such subject though ... :lol:

But we live in the hope you might ... :bleh:

Swoop

18th June 2020, 13:29

pete376403

18th June 2020, 15:36

It's good to see the world's media is having the blinkers taken off of their eyes, with regards to the utter incompetence of our "smiling menace".
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12340991

Don't overlook this: The two sisters released from border facilities early to visit their dying parent were released after positive representations from the National MP for Hutt South, Health Minister David Clark has revealed in the House.

frogfeaturesFZR

18th June 2020, 21:43

Don't overlook this: The two sisters released from border facilities early to visit their dying parent were released after positive representations from the National MP for Hutt South, Health Minister David Clark has revealed in the House.

But it seems a reasonable assumption that he expected them to be tested, prior to release.
Just common sense.
The mere fact Minister Clark raised it suggests deflection, on his part.

pete376403

18th June 2020, 22:29

But it seems a reasonable assumption that he expected them to be tested, prior to release.
Just common sense.
The mere fact Minister Clark raised it suggests deflection, on his part.

Quite right, they should have been tested prior, and the rules to that effect were in place. But some unidentified person someway down the chain ignored those rules, and we are now seeing the result, but this in no way suggests that it happened because of incompetence of the leadership, despite Muller, Hoskings and all the other right wing pundits claiming so. It was simply a fuckup by minor player, with major implications

TheDemonLord

18th June 2020, 22:38

Quite right, they should have been tested prior, and the rules to that effect were in place. But some unidentified person someway down the chain ignored those rules, and we are now seeing the result, but this in no way suggests that it happened because of incompetence of the leadership, despite Muller, Hoskings and all the other right wing pundits claiming so. It was simply a fuckup by minor player, with major implications

So where does the Buck Stop?

With some faceless bureaucrat?

Given how much damage the Lockdown has done to the Economy, and given that potentially this could cause a series of community transmissions that would require further action - this is not a mere 'fuckup'

pete376403

19th June 2020, 13:56

Swoop

19th June 2020, 20:39

Don't overlook this: The two sisters released from border facilities early to visit their dying parent were released after positive representations from the National MP for Hutt South, Health Minister David Clark has revealed in the House.

That is what an opposition is for, raising issues from constituents, etc. Exactly the same thing would happen if the parties in power were reversed.
Those in power, or responsible for an authority, should have made damn sure that all the checks and balances were done prior to letting these two ladies loose on the general public.

Katman

19th June 2020, 20:44

That is what an opposition is for, raising issues from constituents, etc.

Raising issues from constituents is not solely the role of the opposition.

That's what all MP's are supposed to do.

Swoop

19th June 2020, 20:50

Raising issues from constituents is not solely the role of the opposition.

That's what all MP's are supposed to do.

Quite so, but if you haven't had a desired result from one side of the house you then try the other.
This might not be the case here with these two ladies, but point-scoring by an opposition is always part of the political game.

Katman

19th June 2020, 20:54

Quite so, but if you haven't had a desired result from one side of the house you then try the other.
This might not be the case here with these two ladies, but point-scoring by an opposition is always part of the political game.

Yeah, you and a number of others on here seem to get very excitable over political games.

Swoop

19th June 2020, 20:55

Yeah, you and a number of others on here seem to get very excitable over political games.
Those of us who vote, are allowed to comment.

Katman

19th June 2020, 21:07

Those of us who vote, are allowed to comment.

Quite so.

Just the same as you're allowed to get all excitable over political games.

TheDemonLord

20th June 2020, 10:41

The buck stops at the top, OK. So who should resign/fall on their sword and what effect will it have on the outcome? Would you, in the course of your employment quit your job to make someone feel better about a mistake made by a person a lot further down the chain, even though you quitting would 1/ make no difference at all to the outcome and 2/ deprive the enterprise of your knowledge and skill while 3/ leaving the person who caused the problem in place?

The entire lot of them would be a good start...

But to answer your question- I was heading up a decommission/migration project for an entire Mail platform, some 10,000 Mailboxes - we ran an audit of the billing system and pulled out the Mailboxes and then shut the system down.

After which all hell broke loose.

Turned out that the person I'd tasked the audit of the billing system with (and had more experience with the front-end) had forgotten to include resellers sub-customers (some 2-3,000 Mailboxes).

Now - I could have thrown him under the Bus, however I was leading the project and I didn't properly review his work, so I took the flak - cost me 2 Chocolate cakes delivered to each office.

3 important things happened here:

1 - any junior staff who were wary of helping on projects lest they got blamed by managers (an unfortunate occurrence before I came along) suddenly were keen to help, several of whom have now been promoted up into the team I'm in.
2 - we implemented some changes to how we audit some of the older billing systems to ensure we captured all the data.
3 - my reputation wasn't tarnished, in fact by taking ownership and leadership over the issue, senior management trusted me to continue with the work.

So, that's the standard I set for myself, and It's the same standard I set for any leader.

I see nothing of ownership in this government.

mashman

20th June 2020, 11:54

Those of us who vote, are allowed to comment.

... yeah, ya'll complain for 3/6/9 years and then crow for 3/6/9 years whilst the "other side" does the opposite. And they reckon retards have learning disabilities.

Bonez

20th June 2020, 12:08

... yeah, ya'll complain for 3/6/9 years and then crow for 3/6/9 years whilst the "other side" does the opposite. And they reckon retards have learning disabilities.Must be the best post this year sir. Well done.:yes:

JimO

20th June 2020, 16:00

ardern needs to win this election so she can fix the shambles she has caused or will they continue to blame the 9 years of neglect etc etc, they must be keeping all the other clowns in the circus locked up, havnt heard anything from twyford for a while

pete376403

20th June 2020, 17:40

The entire lot of them would be a good start...

But to answer your question- I was heading up a decommission/migration project for an entire Mail platform, some 10,000 Mailboxes - we ran an audit of the billing system and pulled out the Mailboxes and then shut the system down.

After which all hell broke loose.

Turned out that the person I'd tasked the audit of the billing system with (and had more experience with the front-end) had forgotten to include resellers sub-customers (some 2-3,000 Mailboxes).

Now - I could have thrown him under the Bus, however I was leading the project and I didn't properly review his work, so I took the flak - cost me 2 Chocolate cakes delivered to each office.

3 important things happened here:

1 - any junior staff who were wary of helping on projects lest they got blamed by managers (an unfortunate occurrence before I came along) suddenly were keen to help, several of whom have now been promoted up into the team I'm in.
2 - we implemented some changes to how we audit some of the older billing systems to ensure we captured all the data.
3 - my reputation wasn't tarnished, in fact by taking ownership and leadership over the issue, senior management trusted me to continue with the work.

So, that's the standard I set for myself, and It's the same standard I set for any leader.

I see nothing of ownership in this government.

Using your points:
1/ whoever made the covid testing error hasn't been outed, so no difference to your situation
2/ Changes to the management of the testing regime have been implemented to ensure they capture all the positives, so, no difference to your situation
3/ we differ on whether reputations have been tarnished or not. Bloomfield is still in place so senior management must be trusting him to carry on with the work. So, no different to your situation

Viking01

20th June 2020, 18:25

The entire lot of them would be a good start...

But to answer your question- I was heading up a decommission/migration project for an entire Mail platform, some 10,000 Mailboxes - we ran an audit of the billing system and pulled out the Mailboxes and then shut the system down.

After which all hell broke loose.

Turned out that the person I'd tasked the audit of the billing system with (and had more experience with the front-end) had forgotten to include resellers sub-customers (some 2-3,000 Mailboxes).

Now - I could have thrown him under the Bus, however I was leading the project and I didn't properly review his work, so I took the flak - cost me 2 Chocolate cakes delivered to each office.

3 important things happened here:

1 - any junior staff who were wary of helping on projects lest they got blamed by managers (an unfortunate occurrence before I came along) suddenly were keen to help, several of whom have now been promoted up into the team I'm in.
2 - we implemented some changes to how we audit some of the older billing systems to ensure we captured all the data.
3 - my reputation wasn't tarnished, in fact by taking ownership and leadership over the issue, senior management trusted me to continue with the work.

So, that's the standard I set for myself, and It's the same standard I set for any leader.

I see nothing of ownership in this government.

Maybe you should text Jacinda and let her know that (say) on the off-chance of her being disabled by Covid, you'd be quite willing to step in and "man the fort" while she was busy recuperating - and knock some of the recalcitrants into shape at the same time.

And if you did a good job, she might even grant you an extension - and free her up while she concentrates on the election campaign.

Just a thought.

Swoop

20th June 2020, 22:08

And they reckon retards have learning disabilities.
Good point! How's your dot-to-dot puzzle coming along? The colouring in was needing some remedial work as you consistently cross over the lines.

ardern needs to win this election so she can fix the shambles she has caused...
We can only wonder what lies they will come up with for this round of "delude the gullible public". They certainly don't have a good track record of acomplishments on the promises they made last time.

mashman

20th June 2020, 23:09

Good point! How's your dot-to-dot puzzle coming along? The colouring in was needing some remedial work as you consistently cross over the lines.

Turns out there's a shitload of dots outside of the lines. To be fair though they're really hard to see when going over the line is a step too far from toeing it.

jasonu

21st June 2020, 04:11

Race baiters
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12341511

Bonez

21st June 2020, 07:54

Race baiters
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12341511Connies been winding them up on her Facebook feeds. Quoting Martin Luther King normally shuts them up.:lol:

TheDemonLord

21st June 2020, 20:50

Using your points:
1/ whoever made the covid testing error hasn't been outed, so no difference to your situation
2/ Changes to the management of the testing regime have been implemented to ensure they capture all the positives, so, no difference to your situation
3/ we differ on whether reputations have been tarnished or not. Bloomfield is still in place so senior management must be trusting him to carry on with the work. So, no different to your situation

Except the part about owning up to mistakes made. That part is quite different.

As for the difference in situations:

Missing a couple of Emails vs potentially unleashing a pathogen to a population.

That part is also Quite different.

TheDemonLord

21st June 2020, 20:51

Maybe you should text Jacinda and let her know that (say) on the off-chance of her being disabled by Covid, you'd be quite willing to step in and "man the fort" while she was busy recuperating - and knock some of the recalcitrants into shape at the same time.

And if you did a good job, she might even grant you an extension - and free her up while she concentrates on the election campaign.

Just a thought.

Sure.
Anytime - send me her Cell phone number and I'll get right on it.
There's at least two bits of immoral legislation I'd be only too happy to correct.

Viking01

22nd June 2020, 12:44

Sure.
Anytime - send me her Cell phone number and I'll get right on it.
There's at least two bits of immoral legislation I'd be only too happy to correct.

So what two pieces of legislation would those be ?

TheDemonLord

22nd June 2020, 12:47

So what two pieces of legislation would those be ?

2019 and 2020 Arms Amendment bill.

Murray

22nd June 2020, 20:08

onearmedbandit

22nd June 2020, 20:22

So everyones getting in a panic about the new cases of Covid in NZ and the complete lack of faith in the Minister of health and what do we get for a news item over the weekend?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/jacinda-ardern-shares-piano-birthday-cake-daughter-neve-turns-two#:~:text=In%20celebrating%20her%20daughter's%20 second,toddler's%20piano%20themed%20birthday%20cak e.&text=Last%20year's%20cake%20for%20Neve,%22it%20hid es%20almost%20everything%22.

I just shake my head:facepalm::facepalm:

Was it the only news? I mean I hate the media more than most but I'm sure they ran lots of other stories too.

Murray

22nd June 2020, 20:48

Was it the only news? I mean I hate the media more than most but I'm sure they ran lots of other stories too.

Not regarding Jacinda over the weekend

Swoop

22nd June 2020, 22:02

... yeah, ya'll complain for 3/6/9 years and then crow for 3/6/9 years whilst the "other side" does the opposite.
Addressing the point now.
A lot of people have short memories, especially around here.
When national were in government there were the regular "nazional" and "false smile from the PM" comments among a whole raft of others, yet when an opposite view is put against this government (and all of their lies + cockups) there are the normal bunch who show up to back the "False Smile" from the leader of the labour party and the endless stream of lies and utter BS spouted by them.

So, when this government are voted out* we will see the other side of the fence pop back up to complain how hard they are done, by the new government.

* Remember that government's are NOT voted in, but the incumbent is voted out because of actual or perceived incompetence.

mashman

23rd June 2020, 07:37

Addressing the point now.
A lot of people have short memories, especially around here.
When national were in government there were the regular "nazional" and "false smile from the PM" comments among a whole raft of others, yet when an opposite view is put against this government (and all of their lies + cockups) there are the normal bunch who show up to back the "False Smile" from the leader of the labour party and the endless stream of lies and utter BS spouted by them.

So, when this government are voted out* we will see the other side of the fence pop back up to complain how hard they are done, by the new government.

* Remember that government's are NOT voted in, but the incumbent is voted out because of actual or perceived incompetence.

To be fair, I don't think having a "short memory" is up there in terms of why governments change. I Am not saying that it isn't a factor in the slightest, but when you consider the options that are available to vote for: Same v More of the Same, and many peoples' insatiable need to vote so that they can have their say, I reckon lack of choice takes top spot given the all but predictable results. Two wings of the same bird springs to mind, as both (2 horse race almost everywhere innit) do seem to make a habit out of making expedient promises to secure their terms.

But yeah, smiles and teeth and babies and warm fuzzies make up for that... and it'll be different next time... once the economy recovers, then politicians can afford what they promise. Oh the lies we believe.

TheDemonLord

23rd June 2020, 08:56

So everyones getting in a panic about the new cases of Covid in NZ and the complete lack of faith in the Minister of health and what do we get for a news item over the weekend?

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/jacinda-ardern-shares-piano-birthday-cake-daughter-neve-turns-two#:~:text=In%20celebrating%20her%20daughter's%20 second,toddler's%20piano%20themed%20birthday%20cak e.&text=Last%20year's%20cake%20for%20Neve,%22it%20hid es%20almost%20everything%22.

I just shake my head:facepalm::facepalm:

The worst part about that picture...

Is that the Piano Keys are wrong - There's no B sharp nor E Sharp (unless you want to be really snooty about your musical theory and point out that E sharp is an F, but is written as E Sharp depending on the Key/Mode etc. but TL;DR there's no black key between B and C, and E and F).

Berries

23rd June 2020, 15:03

The worst part about that picture...

Is that the Piano Keys are wrong.
Is it a piano though? I thought it was a glimpse in to the orthodontal future for the wee bairn.

Ulsterkiwi

25th June 2020, 11:58

Except the part about owning up to mistakes made. That part is quite different.

As for the difference in situations:

Missing a couple of Emails vs potentially unleashing a pathogen to a population.

That part is also Quite different.

Comparing an IT project to running the country being a false equivalence aside, I am genuinely curious who you think should resign or be sacked.
What would be satisfactory in terms of taking responsibility and showing leadership? 5 chocolate cakes? 6?
The system broke down, noone in their right mind would see that as acceptable. The system required human action which will always let us down at some point.
There does not appear to be a rule book or even guidelines as to what the appropriate punishment should be and to whom it should be directed.
So I would like to hear what the suggestion is other than "down with this sort of thing!"

Katman

25th June 2020, 12:42

One of the things that bewilders me most about this whole fuck up is that the vast majority of those who were given a compassionate exemption and released without testing, are now refusing to be tested.

TheDemonLord

25th June 2020, 13:16

Comparing an IT project to running the country being a false equivalence aside, I am genuinely curious who you think should resign or be sacked.
What would be satisfactory in terms of taking responsibility and showing leadership? 5 chocolate cakes? 6?
The system broke down, noone in their right mind would see that as acceptable. The system required human action which will always let us down at some point.
There does not appear to be a rule book or even guidelines as to what the appropriate punishment should be and to whom it should be directed.
So I would like to hear what the suggestion is other than "down with this sort of thing!"

At the very least - an admission that they (The Government as an entity) Fucked up.

Let's start there.

And this lack of admission of fault isn't solely restricted to Covid either.

But getting back to the fundamental question:

The real Ire however is that where the system 'Failed' is in such a manner that even basic common sense would have prevented it:

"We have some people coming in on compassionate grounds from overseas - should we:

A: Just let them in the country because She'll be right Mate.
or
B: Take the 30 seconds time it takes to have the test administered and hold them in isolation for 48 hours whilst we process the results"

To anyone, Labour voter or people like myself (not particularly happy with Labour) the answer is blatantly obvious - you test at the border and Isolate whilst the test results are processed. That this was not done and the result of this is effectively re-introduced a Pathogen into the country is inexcusable.

And yes, I put the failure for this onto the Leadership because it's the exact same lax border management that introduced Covid to NZ in the first place. So it is on that Basis that I think the correct thing to do would be for the Minister (or better yet, the Prime Minister...) to admit their mistakes, gracefully fall on their sword and get someone in who can understand the basics of isolation at the Border.

This is without going into the extreme slap in the face that multiple Kiwis have had with loosing their jobs/hours/homes etc. due entirely to the Lockdown (which IMO was excessive).

Summing it - Sure, I don't like Labour and every little thing that makes them look bad, I'll rejoice in that - I'm freely admitting to that Bias - if you consider that this taints my opinion to the point of discarding it, Fair enough, I hold no ill-will for that.

In this instance though, on the basic facts of the matter there have been multiple failures by the Government which they have refused to own up to and that this has cost the populace in multiple ways - it is on that basis that a call for resignation is justified.

TheDemonLord

25th June 2020, 13:17

Katman

25th June 2020, 13:36

Which is doubly ironic because the Test literally takes 10-30 seconds.

Leaving aside the question of irony, why would those people who were given a compassionate exemption now thumb their noses at the entire country in such a manner?

jasonu

25th June 2020, 14:00

TheDemonLord

25th June 2020, 14:01

Leaving aside the question of irony, why would those people who were given a compassionate exemption now thumb their noses at the entire country in such a manner?

The only reason I can think of - is the worry that they might have it and they don't want to go into enforced isolation for 2-4 weeks.

But yeah, it's an odd behaviour.

I can see a civil liberties line of argument e.g. "The Government can't make me do XYZ" - but given the time it takes to have the test done and the minimally invasive nature (A swab up your nose, uncomfortable, but no blood, needles etc.) - not even I could get behind that argument.

Katman

25th June 2020, 14:16

Where did it say that?

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

Katman

25th June 2020, 14:18

The only reason I can think of - is the worry that they might have it and they don't want to go into enforced isolation for 2-4 weeks.

But yeah, it's an odd behaviour.

I can see a civil liberties line of argument e.g. "The Government can't make me do XYZ" - but given the time it takes to have the test done and the minimally invasive nature (A swab up your nose, uncomfortable, but no blood, needles etc.) - not even I could get behind that argument.

Or maybe someone from the National party has been having a quiet word in their ears - encouraging them to milk the fuck up for all it's worth.

pete376403

25th June 2020, 14:40

Refusal to take the test should mean back to enforced 14 day quarantine. Maybe somewhere like Waiouru army base rather than a nice 5 star hotel. Actually make it 28 days to be doubly sure.

TheDemonLord

25th June 2020, 14:48

Or maybe someone from the National party has been having a quiet word in their ears - encouraging them to milk the fuck up for all it's worth.

But that doesn't make sense:

If an individual is refusing to take the Test, my anger is directed towards them, not so much the Government.

The damage from the government incompetence has already been done.

jasonu

25th June 2020, 14:59

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

Not doubting you but can you post a link.

Katman

25th June 2020, 15:11

But that doesn't make sense:

If an individual is refusing to take the Test, my anger is directed towards them, not so much the Government.

The damage from the government incompetence has already been done.

It exacerbates the whole fuck up.

Katman

25th June 2020, 15:39

Not doubting you but can you post a link.

It would appear that the 45 people refusing tests aren't necessarily from the 54 exemptions but rather, part of the 119 that won't be tested that are mentioned in the paragraph headed '2,159 group'.

https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/1-new-case-covid-19-2

Ulsterkiwi

25th June 2020, 15:47

At the very least - an admission that they (The Government as an entity) Fucked up.

Let's start there.

And this lack of admission of fault isn't solely restricted to Covid either.

But getting back to the fundamental question:

The real Ire however is that where the system 'Failed' is in such a manner that even basic common sense would have prevented it:

"We have some people coming in on compassionate grounds from overseas - should we:

A: Just let them in the country because She'll be right Mate.
or
B: Take the 30 seconds time it takes to have the test administered and hold them in isolation for 48 hours whilst we process the results"

To anyone, Labour voter or people like myself (not particularly happy with Labour) the answer is blatantly obvious - you test at the border and Isolate whilst the test results are processed. That this was not done and the result of this is effectively re-introduced a Pathogen into the country is inexcusable.

And yes, I put the failure for this onto the Leadership because it's the exact same lax border management that introduced Covid to NZ in the first place. So it is on that Basis that I think the correct thing to do would be for the Minister (or better yet, the Prime Minister...) to admit their mistakes, gracefully fall on their sword and get someone in who can understand the basics of isolation at the Border.

This is without going into the extreme slap in the face that multiple Kiwis have had with loosing their jobs/hours/homes etc. due entirely to the Lockdown (which IMO was excessive).

Summing it - Sure, I don't like Labour and every little thing that makes them look bad, I'll rejoice in that - I'm freely admitting to that Bias - if you consider that this taints my opinion to the point of discarding it, Fair enough, I hold no ill-will for that.

In this instance though, on the basic facts of the matter there have been multiple failures by the Government which they have refused to own up to and that this has cost the populace in multiple ways - it is on that basis that a call for resignation is justified.

I am no Labour fanboy. The current government is not perfect and not led by a Goddess.
However, there seems to be some difference in interpretation. I saw the PM say the system had failed and it was not acceptable. She also said it was her job to fix it. I agree.
Why would she say it was her job to fix something if it hadn't been screwed up?

You have made some more comments about testing which suggests an incomplete understanding of the capability of the testing process. It is entirely possible for someone to have been infected with COVID-19 and return a negative test.
Hence the 14 day isolation and 2 rounds of testing which the system calls for. This is the system the MOH assured cabinet was in place but was not administered for the two individuals in question. That was the failure.

You say the lockdown was excessive? Tell me about your qualifications, publication record and practice in virology/public health/infectious disease control, I didn't realise that was a sideline of yours. When I want to build IT infrastructure I will pay more attention to your opinion.
Actual expert advice was taken and a policy determined based on that. It appears NZ is all but unique in the world in terms of the level of control in place over the spread of COVID-19. Surely that places us in a very good position to address the economic impact which was going to happen anyway?
I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
There was always going to be additional cases picked up at the border, please tell me when MOH or the government said otherwise.

If any Prime Minister were to resign every time there was a system failure we would be going through Prime Ministers at a rate something akin to Australia, probably much worse actually. That is the case irrespective of which party is in power at the time.

Is there clear evidence that there is large scale community transmission of COVID-19 as a direct consequence of this system failure? I am not aware of any such evidence.
Is there clear evidence that cabinet did not expect an appropriate, evidence based system of border control to be put in place by the various government agencies or that such expectation was not acted upon? I am not aware of any such evidence.
If there was, then I think we would be in the territory of ministerial and senior public servant resignations.
Until we are there, demanding resignations at that level for this problem is akin to sacking your pilot because the baggage handlers didnt get the luggage on board in time. I think the term is disproportionate response.

On another note

And this lack of admission of fault isn't solely restricted to Covid either.

What do you mean?

jasonu

25th June 2020, 16:32

I am no Labour fanboy. The current government is not perfect and not led by a Goddess.
However, there seems to be some difference in interpretation. I saw the PM say the system had failed and it was not acceptable. She also said it was her job to fix it. I agree.
Why would she say it was her job to fix something if it hadn't been screwed up?

You have made some more comments about testing which suggests an incomplete understanding of the capability of the testing process. It is entirely possible for someone to have been infected with COVID-19 and return a negative test.
Hence the 14 day isolation and 2 rounds of testing which the system calls for. This is the system the MOH assured cabinet was in place but was not administered for the two individuals in question. That was the failure.

You say the lockdown was excessive? Tell me about your qualifications, publication record and practice in virology/public health/infectious disease control, I didn't realise that was a sideline of yours. When I want to build IT infrastructure I will pay more attention to your opinion.
Actual expert advice was taken and a policy determined based on that. It appears NZ is all but unique in the world in terms of the level of control in place over the spread of COVID-19. Surely that places us in a very good position to address the economic impact which was going to happen anyway?
I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
There was always going to be additional cases picked up at the border, please tell me when MOH or the government said otherwise.

If any Prime Minister were to resign every time there was a system failure we would be going through Prime Ministers at a rate something akin to Australia, probably much worse actually. That is the case irrespective of which party is in power at the time.

Is there clear evidence that there is large scale community transmission of COVID-19 as a direct consequence of this system failure? I am not aware of any such evidence.
Is there clear evidence that cabinet did not expect an appropriate, evidence based system of border control to be put in place by the various government agencies or that such expectation was not acted upon? I am not aware of any such evidence.
If there was, then I think we would be in the territory of ministerial and senior public servant resignations.
Until we are there, demanding resignations at that level for this problem is akin to sacking your pilot because the baggage handlers didnt get the luggage on board in time. I think the term is disproportionate response.

On another note

What do you mean?

Simply saying we fucked up but will fix it doesn't make it go away or let anyone off the hook for the fuck up. Since they were elected (by Winston Peters) Labour have had a so far never ending string of failures, blunders and fuck ups. The tooth monster has shown she is good at managing difficult situations but as far as running a country goes it has been a colossal failure. The way her luck has been running I wouldn't be surprised to see some other catastrophe just before voting time that will help all the dumb shits forget just how useless her and her party of muppets have been.

TheDemonLord

25th June 2020, 16:36

I am no Labour fanboy. The current government is not perfect and not led by a Goddess.
However, there seems to be some difference in interpretation. I saw the PM say the system had failed and it was not acceptable. She also said it was her job to fix it. I agree.
Why would she say it was her job to fix something if it hadn't been screwed up?

"The System had failed"

vs

"We have failed" - bit of a difference and given various actions of this Government, I'm not granting them any benefit of doubt.

You have made some more comments about testing which suggests an incomplete understanding of the capability of the testing process. It is entirely possible for someone to have been infected with COVID-19 and return a negative test.
Hence the 14 day isolation and 2 rounds of testing which the system calls for. This is the system the MOH assured cabinet was in place but was not administered for the two individuals in question. That was the failure.

I'm going off my first-hand experience of getting tested, but I'll accept your statement as is - the MOH assured the Cabinet that it was doing something, when it wasn't - I don't see how there is any other conclusion in that statement except a massive failure of the Leadership.

You say the lockdown was excessive? Tell me about your qualifications, publication record and practice in virology/public health/infectious disease control, I didn't realise that was a sideline of yours. When I want to build IT infrastructure I will pay more attention to your opinion.
Actual expert advice was taken and a policy determined based on that. It appears NZ is all but unique in the world in terms of the level of control in place over the spread of COVID-19. Surely that places us in a very good position to address the economic impact which was going to happen anyway?
I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
There was always going to be additional cases picked up at the border, please tell me when MOH or the government said otherwise.

Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan. I'm looking at what other countries did and what we did and it seems to me that at Level 3, allowing most businesses to operate we would have mitigated most of the potential hazzards and most importantly of all, not crippling the Economy.

If any Prime Minister were to resign every time there was a system failure we would be going through Prime Ministers at a rate something akin to Australia, probably much worse actually. That is the case irrespective of which party is in power at the time.

Sure, My dislike of the Prime Minister is certainly a factor here, however there is a long precedent of monumental screwups being grounds for a resignation.

Does the re-introduction of a Pathogen into the populace due to repeated incompetence meet the threshold for Monumental Screwup? You may not think so, but I put forward the case that objectively it doe

Is there clear evidence that there is large scale community transmission of COVID-19 as a direct consequence of this system failure? I am not aware of any such evidence.

Then why did we need the Lockdown in the first place? As the RISK of community transmission was the basis under which this was undertaken?

Both scenarios cannot coexist - if one is true, then the other must also be true.

Is there clear evidence that cabinet did not expect an appropriate, evidence based system of border control to be put in place by the various government agencies or that such expectation was not acted upon? I am not aware of any such evidence.

The Clear evidence here is that 50 or so people slipped through the cracks, Cracks which to even the most lay of lay-persons should not exist.

If there was, then I think we would be in the territory of ministerial and senior public servant resignations.
Until we are there, demanding resignations at that level for this problem is akin to sacking your pilot because the baggage handlers didnt get the luggage on board in time. I think the term is disproportionate response.

I've outlined my reasons as to why we are objectively in the territory, if you hold differently - then that's your prerogative.

On another note

What do you mean?

Something about giving someone a licence who didn't meet the requirements and then using that failure as an excuse to strip people of their property.

Berries

25th June 2020, 17:22

I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
Temporarily? We are going to have cases arriving on a daily basis with people flying 'home' from wherever. Some of those will fall through cracks for whatever reason. I can't see why someone on Day 12 of hotel isolation can't catch it from an employee who has just been dealing with someone who is only two days in. They get the second test, return a negative and off they go. A week later when they fall sick they are in a different town and have spread it all over the place.

I'm stocking up on bog paper again, we'll be back at Level 3 or 4 sometime in July and the merry go round will start again. Only difference is there will be a new minister in charge and I will have a garage full of booze ready.

Swoop

25th June 2020, 19:39

and many peoples' insatiable need to vote so that they can have their say...
Sadly we are seeing less & less people doing just that.
They are happy to complain about whoever is in power though. All of the adverts by the elewctoral commission ("the orange guy"*) seem to have little effect on voter numbers.

* I wonder if that will change this year due to the orange American guy??

At the very least - an admission that they (The Government as an entity) Fucked up.

And yes, I put the failure for this onto the Leadership because it's the exact same lax border management that introduced Covid to NZ in the first place. So it is on that Basis that I think the correct thing to do would be for the Minister (or better yet, the Prime Minister...) to admit their mistakes, gracefully fall on their sword and get someone in who can understand the basics of isolation at the Border.

This is without going into the extreme slap in the face that multiple Kiwis have had with loosing their jobs/hours/homes etc. due entirely to the Lockdown (which IMO was excessive).
I note that the leader of the labour party has vanished from public view recently. Normally she has had her face in every camera available, but now people are waking up to the level of ineptitude this bunch of clowns have been responsible for, she's gone AWOL.

A population who were expected to isolate and financially suffer, are now being insulted by the recent returnees and the re-introduction of cases of the disease.

husaberg

25th June 2020, 19:42

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

So do you have a link for what you posted as being reported in the media?
because i can find no such reports.....using your own words.
were they like Jasons reports where he claimed to have seen about reports about hillary clinton that he said was widely reported in the media that he cant back up.......

It would appear that the 45 people refusing tests aren't necessarily from the 54 exemptions but rather, part of the 119 that won't be tested that are mentioned in the paragraph headed '2,159 group'.

https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/1-new-case-covid-19-2

really aren't necessarily? or are clearly not?.......
Because according to your own link
54 people left managed isolation on compassionate grounds, either to self-isolate in the community, or to make visits into the community.

39 have returned negative tests for COVID-19. Two of these had a test prior to leaving managed isolation and another two were tested the same day as leaving, meaning 35 were tested after leaving managed isolation, with most tested while still in self-isolation. 　
11 will not be tested, either on the basis of health, because they are a child or they have left the country. This is an increase of four from yesterday due to a family being unable to be tested at this time. 　
3 are awaiting results 　
1 person who we understood to have had a test is now not returning contact and has been referred to enforcement.　

mashman

25th June 2020, 20:52

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

So they're not going to use those new laws they created. lolz.

mashman

25th June 2020, 21:18

Sadly we are seeing less & less people doing just that.
They are happy to complain about whoever is in power though. All of the adverts by the elewctoral commission ("the orange guy"*) seem to have little effect on voter numbers.

* I wonder if that will change this year due to the orange American guy??

I don't really see people not voting, when there's nothing to vote for, as an issue... moreover a sign of potential intelligent life, although most definitely not a guarantee. The ads have little effect, because there's nothing to vote for. To wheel out a broken record: If there was a "No Confidence" option, many non-voters would cast a vote, and I reckon a fair few current voters would also swing that way. This causes a bit of a problem, hence there's no option and silly maxims remain that blame those who didn't vote for not voting for the outcomes we see. If anything those who didn't vote have more to be pissed about given the lack of responsibility taken by voters to correct their mistake in the future.

Not sure if Boss Trump will make a blind bit of difference to the numbers unless he does something spectacular, like draining the swamp. After all, if change isn't happening then it's unlikely that those who don't vote are going to suddenly want to vote given that no party is representing anything like meaningful change. Anyway, the Russians and Chinese will MK everyone into doing their bidding.

jasonu

26th June 2020, 02:32

So do you have a link for what you posted as being reported in the media?
because i can find no such reports.....using your own words.
were they like Jasons reports where he claimed to have seen about reports about hillary clinton that he said was widely reported in the media that he cant back up.......

I don't see or feel the need to answer to a total dickhead like you.

husaberg

26th June 2020, 08:26

I don't see or feel the need to answer to a total dickhead like you.

oh so you just feel you don't feel the need to prove the accusations you make ......so i take it as normal with you, you just keep on making accusations without foundation and when asked for the evidence you consistently fail to be able to provide it. i wounder if there is a word for that. ..........Always a Trumper..........

Ulsterkiwi

26th June 2020, 08:28

Simply saying we fucked up but will fix it doesn't make it go away or let anyone off the hook for the fuck up. Since they were elected (by Winston Peters) Labour have had a so far never ending string of failures, blunders and fuck ups. The tooth monster has shown she is good at managing difficult situations but as far as running a country goes it has been a colossal failure. The way her luck has been running I wouldn't be surprised to see some other catastrophe just before voting time that will help all the dumb shits forget just how useless her and her party of muppets have been.

you are correct, admitting there was a fuck up does not negate the existence of the fuck up, is that not kind of how life works?
As I said, I am no Labour fanboy and things like the kiwibuild fiasco shows this current government has not been 100% successful. Is it possible for any government able to claim they did everything they set out to?
Your pejorative terminology for the PM aside, the NZ system requires cabinet government and I would be the first to say the existing Labour caucus is light on obvious talent. That leaves the PM to carry the can in a lot of matters, she is only human.
I remain fascinated that you are so passionate about sharing your thoughts on a country and people you seem to have so much vitriol for and seem to have chosen to leave behind. Do not get me wrong, if you moved to the states for a better life, good on ya and I wish you well but rest easy that little old NZ and its issues will have zero impact on you over there, take it easy.

Ulsterkiwi

26th June 2020, 08:55

"The System had failed"

vs

"We have failed" - bit of a difference and given various actions of this Government, I'm not granting them any benefit of doubt.

I'm going off my first-hand experience of getting tested, but I'll accept your statement as is - the MOH assured the Cabinet that it was doing something, when it wasn't - I don't see how there is any other conclusion in that statement except a massive failure of the Leadership.

Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan. I'm looking at what other countries did and what we did and it seems to me that at Level 3, allowing most businesses to operate we would have mitigated most of the potential hazzards and most importantly of all, not crippling the Economy.

Sure, My dislike of the Prime Minister is certainly a factor here, however there is a long precedent of monumental screwups being grounds for a resignation.

Does the re-introduction of a Pathogen into the populace due to repeated incompetence meet the threshold for Monumental Screwup? You may not think so, but I put forward the case that objectively it doe

Then why did we need the Lockdown in the first place? As the RISK of community transmission was the basis under which this was undertaken?

Both scenarios cannot coexist - if one is true, then the other must also be true.

The Clear evidence here is that 50 or so people slipped through the cracks, Cracks which to even the most lay of lay-persons should not exist.

I've outlined my reasons as to why we are objectively in the territory, if you hold differently - then that's your prerogative.

Something about giving someone a licence who didn't meet the requirements and then using that failure as an excuse to strip people of their property.

Perhaps the more accurate statement is the implementation of the system failed. Human error. I am not a fan of witch hunts. Unfortunately through history we seem to have a penchant for finding someone or a group of someones to blame, this helps us to make us feel better about our own failures.
I would always prefer to see people who make mistakes learn and try to fix things. Perhaps that is my weakness.

Comparison to other countries is always fraught but I accept that is a natural thing to do and done well can be useful. Australia, or at least Victoria which had the least consistent approach to lockdown isn't looking too good is it?

With respect to COVID-19 being reintroduced into the populace, yes that would be a monumental screw up, as I said, there does not appear to be any evidence this has actually happened. Using your example of gunning for those you do not like, perhaps David Clark is the one who needs to go.
I think the PM and Ashley Bloomfield have provided a great deal of evidence they are competent (perfect? no), David Clark, not so much.
As an aside, I understood the PM not removing him as minister in the middle of the level 4 lockdown. In this instance I find it harder to understand.

we needed lock down as we had no idea how far COVID-19 had penetrated into the wider population. I think you are smart enough to realise that meaningful measurement begins with a point of reference. A baseline of no detectable community transmission was needed. The lockdown provided the most effective manner of achieving that. Some people forget that the MOH advice to cabinet was even tougher than what was put into policy. For sure the economy has taken a massive hit. Given our dependence on tourist dollars, a migrant workforce and exports, our economy was always going to take a massive hit, what is so difficult about acknowledging that?
I could start to make an argument that the previous National government pushed us towards that kind of economy and they have responsibility for what has happened and they should all commit politicial seppuku. That would be a tenuous argument, achieve no real benefit and leave us without a functioning opposition. Useless. Better to learn and fix. Think about how our economy might be made more resilient, we need thinking and policy from all sides of the spectrum for that to happen.

I think an overhaul of firearms legislation was in order. We discussed this in a previous thread I believe. It is clear there was human error leading to a systemic failure which noone in authority acknowledged or attempted to fix. That would fit what I would consider criteria to move someone on. What is the difference? Those in charge (the Police) did not and do not yet appear to have acknowledged there was a problem and have not attempted to fix things.
I accept legitimate firearms owners were let down by the system
I do not accept that civilians have any demonstrable need to possess working military grade weapons, that is why reform of the legislation was needed.

Ulsterkiwi

26th June 2020, 08:57

Temporarily? We are going to have cases arriving on a daily basis with people flying 'home' from wherever. Some of those will fall through cracks for whatever reason. I can't see why someone on Day 12 of hotel isolation can't catch it from an employee who has just been dealing with someone who is only two days in. They get the second test, return a negative and off they go. A week later when they fall sick they are in a different town and have spread it all over the place.

I'm stocking up on bog paper again, we'll be back at Level 3 or 4 sometime in July and the merry go round will start again. Only difference is there will be a new minister in charge and I will have a garage full of booze ready.

all those things you suggest are a risk, no question. Life is about risk management not risk removal. Isn't it ironic that on a motorcycle forum so many of us struggle with the idea that we cannot guarantee 100% removal of an identified risk.

TheDemonLord

26th June 2020, 11:48

Perhaps the more accurate statement is the implementation of the system failed. Human error. I am not a fan of witch hunts. Unfortunately through history we seem to have a penchant for finding someone or a group of someones to blame, this helps us to make us feel better about our own failures.
I would always prefer to see people who make mistakes learn and try to fix things. Perhaps that is my weakness.

Giving people the benefit of the doubt and a chance to rectify is noble and admirable, and I (like everyone else) complied with the Lockdown.

It seems to me there have been multiple chances and each one has had a serious failure. On top of that, given the ideological underpinnings of the current Labour/Green Coilition, I don't grant them any benefit of the Doubt.

Comparison to other countries is always fraught but I accept that is a natural thing to do and done well can be useful. Australia, or at least Victoria which had the least consistent approach to lockdown isn't looking too good is it?

Definitely fraught and yes I agree with Victoria, it seems there is a continuum of sorts - with Level 3 being about the sweet spot. Too much and there is a massive Economic Cost (which, based on the data from previous recessions, is likely to cost many lives), Too little and there is an immediate life cost.

If you want to accuse me of having perfect Hindsight, then that's a fair critique - but I've been pretty clear from the outset that I think there was a degree of over-reaction.

With respect to COVID-19 being reintroduced into the populace, yes that would be a monumental screw up, as I said, there does not appear to be any evidence this has actually happened. Using your example of gunning for those you do not like, perhaps David Clark is the one who needs to go.
I think the PM and Ashley Bloomfield have provided a great deal of evidence they are competent (perfect? no), David Clark, not so much.
As an aside, I understood the PM not removing him as minister in the middle of the level 4 lockdown. In this instance I find it harder to understand.

And that's fair - ultimately I think he should at least publicly acknowledge his multiple screw-ups. If his incompetence is what ends up sinking HMS Jacinda, then maybe we should keep him around for as long as possible....

we needed lock down as we had no idea how far COVID-19 had penetrated into the wider population. I think you are smart enough to realise that meaningful measurement begins with a point of reference. A baseline of no detectable community transmission was needed. The lockdown provided the most effective manner of achieving that. Some people forget that the MOH advice to cabinet was even tougher than what was put into policy. For sure the economy has taken a massive hit. Given our dependence on tourist dollars, a migrant workforce and exports, our economy was always going to take a massive hit, what is so difficult about acknowledging that?
I could start to make an argument that the previous National government pushed us towards that kind of economy and they have responsibility for what has happened and they should all commit politicial seppuku. That would be a tenuous argument, achieve no real benefit and leave us without a functioning opposition. Useless. Better to learn and fix. Think about how our economy might be made more resilient, we need thinking and policy from all sides of the spectrum for that to happen.

I think I'm going to answer this in a Tangential way:

The old adage - when the only tool you have is a Hammer, every problem is a Nail.

The MoH will only see things in terms of Health, An Economist will only see things in terms of the Economy etc. As with most things in life, there are trade-offs made for each side and we seek to find a balance whereby we get the best bang-for-buck.

So when the MoH want the strictest possible lockdown, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes! I'm sitting here going 'Well, that's all fine, but what happens in 6 months and a year, such an action has severe consequences'.

Perhaps a better option would have been to put the Elderly and the Infirm and people with pre-existing medical conditions (Asthma sufferers as an example) into a strict lockdown and let everyone else get on with their lives, if it's found that that isn't restrictive enough, then ramp it up.

I think an overhaul of firearms legislation was in order. We discussed this in a previous thread I believe. It is clear there was human error leading to a systemic failure which noone in authority acknowledged or attempted to fix. That would fit what I would consider criteria to move someone on. What is the difference? Those in charge (the Police) did not and do not yet appear to have acknowledged there was a problem and have not attempted to fix things.
I accept legitimate firearms owners were let down by the system
I do not accept that civilians have any demonstrable need to possess working military grade weapons, that is why reform of the legislation was needed.

We have, although when discussed before it was only the opinion of Firearm owners that the Terrorist was not properly vetted, now we have confirmation from Police informants.

Without re-hashing that debate (since you've stated your position):

For me the justification of the law change was fundamentally 'the current laws were insufficient to prevent this attack'.

Which we now have explicit evidence that this is not true, the previous laws were more than sufficient to prevent it, if the Police did their job properly.

What's more, the failing of the Police in this instance, it wasn't a value judgement where an officer made the wrong call (which could be perhaps understood). He didn't have the required references for the Vetting process, which should have been an automatic rejection of his application.

Katman

26th June 2020, 12:33

really aren't necessarily? or are clearly not?.......

1 person who we understood to have had a test is now not returning contact and has been referred to enforcement.　

Well your sentence highlighted in bold suggests that 'aren't necessarily' is a more accurate description than 'clearly not'.

Ulsterkiwi

26th June 2020, 14:23

Definitely fraught and yes I agree with Victoria, it seems there is a continuum of sorts - with Level 3 being about the sweet spot. Too much and there is a massive Economic Cost (which, based on the data from previous recessions, is likely to cost many lives), Too little and there is an immediate life cost.

If you want to accuse me of having perfect Hindsight, then that's a fair critique - but I've been pretty clear from the outset that I think there was a degree of over-reaction.

I think I'm going to answer this in a Tangential way:

The old adage - when the only tool you have is a Hammer, every problem is a Nail.

The MoH will only see things in terms of Health, An Economist will only see things in terms of the Economy etc. As with most things in life, there are trade-offs made for each side and we seek to find a balance whereby we get the best bang-for-buck.

So when the MoH want the strictest possible lockdown, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes! I'm sitting here going 'Well, that's all fine, but what happens in 6 months and a year, such an action has severe consequences'.

Perhaps a better option would have been to put the Elderly and the Infirm and people with pre-existing medical conditions (Asthma sufferers as an example) into a strict lockdown and let everyone else get on with their lives, if it's found that that isn't restrictive enough, then ramp it up.

I am going to focus on these parts of your answer, the rest is not going to be resolved in this discussion I would posit.

Accusation is a strong word but hindsight does seem to be at least part of the basis of your position. It is with the benefit of NZ effectively containing COVID-19 (thus far) that you are able to criticise the approach taken. I am genuinely not interested in attacking you personally, so please remember that when I make the following comments.
Those who say "see it was an over reaction" when the worst the country prepared for did not happen, precisely BECAUSE we prepared for the worst to happen, is more than a bit of a cop out.

You are not a Trumper, I know that but look at what happens when an administration clearly favours economics. If I am going to err, I want to err on the side of people and their health. Economies can be recovered, as yet, we can't bring people back from the dead.

Putting the elderly and infirm in isolation is what the UK did (I know, my parents are in their late 80s and my brother and niece are both immuno-compromised). The UK had to increase restrictions anyway and do not have anything like the level of control we have here. Restrictions were being eased when fewer people were dying, bit different to here eh?
The concern about managing economic impact reminds me of the UK Secretary of State William Whitelaw in the 1970s when he said Northern Ireland should be managed so there was "an acceptable level of violence". You see, that bothers me a whole lot more than removing semi-automatic weapons from civilian ownership. How many deaths, mutilations, beatings, bombings, riots, arrests and destruction exactly is an acceptable level of violence? Applying that to preserving economics over peoples lives, how many infections and deaths would have been acceptable to you before ramping up restrictions?

Look, I get you do not wish anyone ill, but money over people? Really?

TheDemonLord

26th June 2020, 15:01

Accusation is a strong word but hindsight does seem to be at least part of the basis of your position. It is with the benefit of NZ effectively containing COVID-19 (thus far) that you are able to criticise the approach taken. I am genuinely not interested in attacking you personally, so please remember that when I make the following comments.
Those who say "see it was an over reaction" when the worst the country prepared for did not happen, precisely BECAUSE we prepared for the worst to happen, is more than a bit of a cop out.

It's a fair rebuttal - but come back to the point that there were those of us who were critical from Day 1 of the Lockdown, now I'll admit my initial position (that it was a massive overreaction) wasn't correct - but the flipside of immediate nationwide shutdown was also too extreme.

At about the 2nd week of the Lockdown, that is really when we got to see what was happening in NZ and what was happening in other places and that we should have moved to allow business to run remotely or via Online.

I know you aren't attacking me personally, so no offence taken.

You are not a Trumper, I know that but look at what happens when an administration clearly favours economics. If I am going to err, I want to err on the side of people and their health. Economies can be recovered, as yet, we can't bring people back from the dead.

I'm quite fond of Trump actually, but I think the American system in general tends to place a lot more emphasis on the Individual managing themselves, without Governmental intervention.

There are things where I clearly agree with (2nd amendment) there are other things where I don't agree (Social Healthcare) - there's a further point below on where you err

Putting the elderly and infirm in isolation is what the UK did (I know, my parents are in their late 80s and my brother and niece are both immuno-compromised). The UK had to increase restrictions anyway and do not have anything like the level of control we have here. Restrictions were being eased when fewer people were dying, bit different to here eh?
The concern about managing economic impact reminds me of the UK Secretary of State William Whitelaw in the 1970s when he said Northern Ireland should be managed so there was "an acceptable level of violence". You see, that bothers me a whole lot more than removing semi-automatic weapons from civilian ownership. How many deaths, mutilations, beatings, bombings, riots, arrests and destruction exactly is an acceptable level of violence? Applying that to preserving economics over peoples lives, how many infections and deaths would have been acceptable to you before ramping up restrictions?

Look, I get you do not wish anyone ill, but money over people? Really?

First I'll raise Sadiq Kahn, who tells us that Terror attacks are apparently just part of living in a big city these days....

but point scoring aside - Money over People - There's a lot to discuss here:

Firstly some questions: What is the acceptable number of people that are killed by the Flu every year?
or the Acceptable number of people that are killed in Car Crashes?

Now, I'll forgo demanding an actual answer from you, in order to highlight the point:

With the freedom we enjoy in the West comes death, destruction etc. and collectively we say that this Freedom is so valuable to us, that the small cost in terms of Human life and suffering is more than worth it.

So whilst there is no specific answer to that question and whilst we both can agree with the statement 'anything more than 0 isn't acceptable' - the reality is that there is an acceptable number, whereby the balance between individual freedom and the need for protection is reached. And that this balance is dependent on Cultural, Social, Historic etc. Factors.

But when it comes to Money vs People - consider the flipside - how many Suicides, DV incidents etc. that will occur due to the Economy taking a hit and people loosing their Jobs? Especially poignant as to both our national history (or shame) given both of those topics, but also considering which demographic it affects.

There's a study from the last major Recession that suggests that as a direct result of the Economy in the US going downhill, that 250,000 Cancer sufferers (just Cancer, no other ailments mentioned) Died.

Linking back to that, and your point above as to where you tend to side - It is the Economy that provides us with a surplus of resources that enables us to have nice Hospitals, purchase expensive Drugs/Medical equipment, have social welfare schemes etc.

When I raise the point about the Economy, it's because I want to have the most hyper-productive economy possible so that we can have the best hospitals, with the best equipment so that the maximum people can be helped - as you say - I don't wish anyone ill - far from it. It's not Money over People but more the interplay between those two.

Viking01

26th June 2020, 15:08

Perhaps a better option would have been to put the Elderly and the Infirm and people with pre-existing medical conditions (Asthma sufferers as an example) into a strict lockdown and let everyone else get on with their lives, if it's found that that isn't restrictive enough, then ramp it up.

Don't disagree with the sentiment or concept, but think that the identification process might have been problematic (sounds easy; more difficult in practice).

Aged ?
What age were you planning to apply cut-off?

If I look at some past Covid infection data, I see infection grouped in 10 year bands (60-70; 70-80; 80-90; 90+ years old). And with increasing incidence (%) as we go up the age scale. Note that such data had no commentary on what proportions of each age band might have had a pre-exising medical condition.

Infirm ?
Those already relegated to DHB hospital wings or to hospital (and/or dementia) units within retirement villages ? Those with disabilities limiting their movement living in the community (but requiring care-givers) ?

Pre-Existing Medical Conditions ?
What pre-existing medical conditions ? And why ? Based on what already existing (and accepted) medical studies ?

How were you going to acquire such data (within limits of patient data confidentiality) ?

How were you going to assess severity of condition that would warrant individual lock-down? Who would perform such assessment (and in a timely manner)?

If such information had already been readily known and accessible, could the medical authorities not have simply advised citizens to self-assess and self-quarantine accordingly ? Expected level of compliance ?

Such a process might theoretically be more achievable now (in light of the experience and knowledge gained from Covid Round 1), but I suspect that a health system struggling with the current testing regime would struggle to achieve that goal.

TheDemonLord

26th June 2020, 15:29

Don't disagree with the sentiment or concept, but think that the identification process might have been problematic (sounds easy; more difficult in practice).

Aged ?
What age were you planning to apply cut-off?

If I look at some past Covid infection data, I see infection grouped in 10 year bands (60-70; 70-80; 80-90; 90+ years old). And with increasing incidence (%) as we go up the age scale. Note that such data had no commentary on what proportions of each age band might have had a pre-exising medical condition.

Infirm ?
Those already relegated to DHB hospital wings or to hospital (and/or dementia) units within retirement villages ? Those with disabilities limiting their movement living in the community (but requiring care-givers) ?

Pre-Existing Medical Conditions ?
What pre-existing medical conditions ? And why ? Based on what already existing (and accepted) medical studies ?

How were you going to acquire such data (within limits of patient data confidentiality) ?

How were you going to assess severity of condition that would warrant individual lock-down? Who would perform such assessment (and in a timely manner)?

If such information had already been readily known and accessible, could the medical authorities not have simply advised citizens to self-assess and self-quarantine accordingly ? Expected level of compliance ?

Such a process might theoretically be more achievable now (in light of the experience and knowledge gained from Covid Round 1), but I suspect that a health system struggling with the current testing regime would struggle to achieve that goal.

Good Critiques:

In terms of Age Ranges - we could have done some very quick statistical analysis in the early days (based on overseas data) and then come up with an approximate age range (which would likely have been if you are between X and Y, then you are highly recommended to self-isolate and above Y you are required to self-isolate)

Infirm - pretty much as you said, also include those who have are or have a history of being immuno-compromised.

Pre-Existing Medical conditions - that would pretty much mean anything respiratory, most things (I'll use Asthma as an example) has degrees of severity ranging from the 'it's a bit annoying occassionally' to the 'Oh shit, you'll most likely die' - so again you'd pull the data from within the DHB and then notify those people.

Depending on how the Data is stored and structured - it's most likely a SQL Database of some flavour, probably backed by some form of Blob storage - not exceedingly complex to pull a list based on a set of criteria.

But I do think your point that the ability for the Health sector to quickly identify, contact, isolate and if needed enforce measures against individuals will be streamlined in the future.

FJRider

26th June 2020, 17:07

The MoH will only see things in terms of Health, An Economist will only see things in terms of the Economy etc. As with most things in life, there are trade-offs made for each side and we seek to find a balance whereby we get the best bang-for-buck.

The BEST plan was for the work that needed to be done WAS getting done ... to feed and clothe the populace (and keep them WELL). The Primary industries were working to fulfill this basic need. The Wage subsidy helped as an incentive to employers to keep their workers working ... and even if they weren't working ... to (literally) afford them time (AND money) to prepare for restart.

The result was ... the working populace still had money ... and something positive to think of for their future. Remember ... $15 in every $100 that is/was spent ... goes directly (and immediately) back into the Government coffers ... so money was going both ways. The rest being still in circulation. Nothing much beats money in circulation to help any economy. Even if some businesses didn't need the handout (but took it anyway because they were entitled to it and qualified to get it [and who could blame them]) ... money in the bank is good insurance for a business's future prospects. They could be a lot wose off without it.

So when the MoH want the strictest possible lockdown, full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes! I'm sitting here going 'Well, that's all fine, but what happens in 6 months and a year, such an action has severe consequences'.

And when lockdown started ... the majority thought is was a big joke. Nothing to worry about ... I'm fine. So we "Stretch" a few of the rules ... what harm can it do. Those running the isolation centers knew the rules. They felt important enough to grant exemptions outside of their (KNOWN) rules (for various humanitarian reasons) yet no mention of ANY retribution for THEIR rule breaking going their way. And ... if resignation is asked of those at the top ... the hammer will (should ?? [ok ... it used too]) fall harder on those at the bottom (Has it/will it .. ???). And ... could/will there be more deaths because of this ??

Consequences ... perhaps. But ... it might not show in the death statistics to date. OR later. While we are alive ... there must also be hope for our own future. The Stock market crashes and devaluations in our dollar can/has caused issues in our economy in the past ... business will continue (OK ... some wont) but the ones with a sound business plan, practice and purpose will survive. How many of those that didn't survive ... wouldn't have for much longer anyway .. ?? More of them still to go under ... probably.

Perhaps a better option would have been to put the Elderly and the Infirm and people with pre-existing medical conditions (Asthma sufferers as an example) into a strict lockdown and let everyone else get on with their lives, if it's found that that isn't restrictive enough, then ramp it up.

THEY weren't the ones SPREADING the virus. Just the one's most likely to DIE. I suggest you research which group GAVE those that actually died from the virus in the first place. Even WITH all the rules in place ... Those are the very one's that you want to "get on with their lives" too.
Far to many thought Lockdown stage 4 was a joke. It impeded on their freedoms (apparently) ... As if ... that was not the actual basic purpose of the lockdown.

And initial Police response to rule breakers was in the wet infringement notice ... slapped in/on the hand ... didn't help (or change) public conception of what the pandemic controls were for.

The New Zealand Pandemic plan isn't new. Some interesting reading here.

https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/publications/influenza-pandemic-plan-framework-action-2nd-edn-aug17.pdf

Kickaha

26th June 2020, 17:34

First I'll raise Sadiq Kahn, who tells us that Terror attacks are apparently just part of living in a big city these days....

Raise him all you like but he didn't say that, if you're going to quote someone at least be accurate

Sadiq Khan has said he believes "the threat of terror attacks are part and parcel of living in a big city"

husaberg

26th June 2020, 17:44

Well your sentence highlighted in bold suggests that 'aren't necessarily' is a more accurate description than 'clearly not'.
Only to your fragile wounded ego.

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

As is clear there is not 45 in the group refusing to be tested or even close to it thus original alleged statement thus its not "a possibility but not certainty that is not true" Your original suggestion attributed to an unnamed news organisation is clearly not true. Even if it ever existed at all.

not necessarily
idiom
Definition of not necessarily
: possibly but not certainly —used to say that something is not definitely true

Feel free to argue it further after you produce the news story to back up your original assertion.

FJRider

26th June 2020, 19:15

1 person who we understood to have had a test is now not returning contact and has been referred to enforcement.　

Is that one person still in the country ??

Does "Who we understand to have had the test" mean they are KNOWN to have had the test ... or is there uncertainty in that regard (or uncertainty in the results) ... ???

Could there be valid reasons why that "One person" might not have responded ... ???

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:02

Only to your fragile wounded ego.

I'm loving the Karen references.

Where did you get that idea from?

FJRider

26th June 2020, 20:10

Only to your fragile wounded ego.

And to your vivid imagination ... which has got you into bother in previous occasions in these forums ... more than once ... <_<

As is clear there is only 1 person out of the group refusing to be tested and not 45 as in your original alleged statement thus its not "a possibility but not certainty that is not true" Your original suggestion atributed to an uanamed news organisation is clearly not true. Even if it ever existed at all.

You've changed your story already ... from ...

1 person who we understood to have had a test

to

1 person out of the group refusing to be tested

Feel free to argue it further after you produce the news story to back up your original assertion.

DITTO ... on any one of these assertions ... or even come up with a totally new assertion. Don't change your personal policies now. That would just make you look stupid.

Oh wait ... :pinch:

FJRider

26th June 2020, 20:13

I'm loving the Karen references.

Where did you get that idea from?

It can't be him ... original ideas are not his forte ...

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:20

It can't be him ... original ideas are not his forte ...

Indeed.

He must have gotten the idea from someone else.

I wonder if he'll tell us who.

FJRider

26th June 2020, 20:31

Indeed.

He must have gotten the idea from someone else.

I wonder if he'll tell us who.

He has a vivid imagination ... and a huge ego. (Nothing to back it up with though) so he probably wouldn't say. even if he remembered.

He seems to forget what he has already said/posted "On occasion" in the past ...

When he gets excited ... his grammar turns to shit too. (you might have noticed as well)

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:35

He has a vivid imagination ... and a huge ego. (Nothing to back it up with though) so he probably wouldn't say. even if he remembered.

Well you know what they say - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

husaberg

26th June 2020, 20:39

Indeed.

He must have gotten the idea from someone else.

I wonder if he'll tell us who.
Are you sure calling you Karen was not actually reported on the news.
maybe you should complain to the manager about it.

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.
So how are you getting on with some evidence of this claim you said was reported on the News.. same as yesterday ...where you just ignored the question, as you more than likely just seen on the taupo paranoia network.

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:43

When he gets excited ... his grammar turns to shit too. (you might have noticed as well)

He appears to be excited again.

FJRider

26th June 2020, 20:44

Well you know what they say - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Well don't copy him then. Or does he copy you ?? Its hard to tell.

It seems to be a mutual admiration society ... at the very least ... :whistle:

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:48

Or does he copy you ??

I think he wants to be me.

FJRider

26th June 2020, 20:50

He appears to be excited again.

I once suggested that he installs spellcheck ... might help.

Then again ... might not either ... if he got too excited.

Knowing him he DOES have it ... but thinks he knows better ...

either way ... :whocares:

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:52

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/71-people-released-from-managed-isolation-after-refusing-covid-19-test/ar-BB15YOAa?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

Bonez

26th June 2020, 20:56

I once suggested that he installs spellcheck ... might help.

Then again ... might not either ... if he got too excited.

Knowing him he DOES have it ... but thinks he knows better ...

either way ... :whocares:Funny how pritch doesn't chastise the burk for doing that. Haven't heard from him in a while. I wonder why?

FJRider

26th June 2020, 20:57

I think he wants to be me.

No offence ... but I think there are others he'd much rather prefer to be ... than you.

Katman

26th June 2020, 20:59

No offence ... but I think there are others he'd much rather prefer to be ... than you.

None taken.

I suspect he'd like to be just about anyone else - rather than the sorry piece of trash that he is.

FJRider

26th June 2020, 21:01

Are you sure calling you Karan was not actually reported on the news.

There is an E in Karen ... you're getting excited again aren't you ... :killingme

Or ... there is an O in Koran.

The words are easily confused ... ;)

FJRider

26th June 2020, 21:03

None taken.

I suspect he'd like to be just about anyone else - rather than the sorry piece of trash that he is.

Thank you ... if I was him ... I'D want to be somebody else too ... ANYBODY else ... :calm:

FJRider

26th June 2020, 21:13

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/71-people-released-from-managed-isolation-after-refusing-covid-19-test/ar-BB15YOAa?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

In plain English ... that might suggest that the Pandemic is far from being over.

Bugger ... eh .. :facepalm:

Katman

26th June 2020, 21:47

In plain English ... that might suggest that the Pandemic is far from being over.

Bugger ... eh .. :facepalm:

Which brings me back to my original point.

What sort of person would wilfully cause uncertainty in the community by refusing to submit to a test?

FJRider

26th June 2020, 22:45

Which brings me back to my original point.

What sort of person would wilfully cause uncertainty in the community by refusing to submit to a test?

Someone selfish and uncaring ... yes.

Is it legal ... yes.

Scared of a positive result ... maybe.

Has more to hide than they are wanting revealed ... maybe.

They ARE within the rules ... so that is their choice.

Have YOU had the vaccination yet ... ;)

TheDemonLord

26th June 2020, 23:26

Raise him all you like but he didn't say that, if you're going to quote someone at least be accurate

Sadiq Khan has said he believes "the threat of terror attacks are part and parcel of living in a big city"

Sure, I paraphrased him, but I captured the meaning pretty accurately and it's still just as Moronic regardless if you use his original wording or my paraphrase of it.

Katman

26th June 2020, 23:32

Have YOU had the vaccination yet ... ;)

I do hope you're not equating having a cotton bud shoved up your nose with having fuck-knows-what shit injected into you.

TheDemonLord

26th June 2020, 23:39

The BEST plan was for the work that needed to be done WAS getting done ... to feed and clothe the populace (and keep them WELL). The Primary industries were working to fulfill this basic need. The Wage subsidy helped as an incentive to employers to keep their workers working ... and even if they weren't working ... to (literally) afford them time (AND money) to prepare for restart.

The result was ... the working populace still had money ... and something positive to think of for their future. Remember ... $15 in every $100 that is/was spent ... goes directly (and immediately) back into the Government coffers ... so money was going both ways. The rest being still in circulation. Nothing much beats money in circulation to help any economy. Even if some businesses didn't need the handout (but took it anyway because they were entitled to it and qualified to get it [and who could blame them]) ... money in the bank is good insurance for a business's future prospects. They could be a lot wose off without it.

The problem I have here is where that Subsidy came from - it didn't magic out of thin air, everything has a cost.

And when lockdown started ... the majority thought is was a big joke. Nothing to worry about ... I'm fine. So we "Stretch" a few of the rules ... what harm can it do. Those running the isolation centers knew the rules. They felt important enough to grant exemptions outside of their (KNOWN) rules (for various humanitarian reasons) yet no mention of ANY retribution for THEIR rule breaking going their way. And ... if resignation is asked of those at the top ... the hammer will (should ?? [ok ... it used too]) fall harder on those at the bottom (Has it/will it .. ???). And ... could/will there be more deaths because of this ??

If this was the sole and only incident in the last 3 years where a lower level of government had majorly cocked up, I might be inclined to cut some them some slack, but as previously mentioned, it isn't and the reason for it IMO is 100% down to the Leadership.

Consequences ... perhaps. But ... it might not show in the death statistics to date. OR later. While we are alive ... there must also be hope for our own future. The Stock market crashes and devaluations in our dollar can/has caused issues in our economy in the past ... business will continue (OK ... some wont) but the ones with a sound business plan, practice and purpose will survive. How many of those that didn't survive ... wouldn't have for much longer anyway .. ?? More of them still to go under ... probably.

And what is the cost of a stock market crash and devaluation? As above - the last one in the US cost 250,000 lives to Cancer alone - you might say "How many of those that didn't survive ... wouldn't have for much longer anyway .. ??" - but it is a Cost none-the-less.

THEY weren't the ones SPREADING the virus. Just the one's most likely to DIE. I suggest you research which group GAVE those that actually died from the virus in the first place. Even WITH all the rules in place ... Those are the very one's that you want to "get on with their lives" too.
Far to many thought Lockdown stage 4 was a joke. It impeded on their freedoms (apparently) ... As if ... that was not the actual basic purpose of the lockdown.

And initial Police response to rule breakers was in the wet infringement notice ... slapped in/on the hand ... didn't help (or change) public conception of what the pandemic controls were for.

Exactly - protect those who are most likely to die from it, allowing those who aren't likely to die from it to get on with their lives.

As for the Group - that would be people who came in from overseas infected and were given a leaflet at the border instead of being tested and kept in Isolation.

Katman

26th June 2020, 23:52

The problem I have here is where that Subsidy came from - it didn't magic out of thin air, everything has a cost.

Would you prefer that businesses had been locked down for 5 weeks without any subsidy?

TheDemonLord

27th June 2020, 06:38

Would you prefer that businesses had been locked down for 5 weeks without any subsidy?

I'd have preferred that those able to transact online were able to do so during that 5 weeks, significantly lessening the amount of subsidy required.

Bonez

27th June 2020, 07:34

I'd have preferred that those able to transact online were able to do so during that 5 weeks, significantly lessening the amount of subsidy required.But you weren't in charge....It's gone and over with. No use crying over it.

Katman

27th June 2020, 08:31

I'd have preferred that those able to transact online were able to do so during that 5 weeks, significantly lessening the amount of subsidy required.

Well some clearly were.

My wife got a case of wine delivered during it.

Kickaha

27th June 2020, 08:32

Sure, I paraphrased him, but I captured the meaning pretty accurately

No it doesn't, two totally different meanings, it also misses out a large part of what he said afterwards

Oakie

27th June 2020, 09:23

I'd have preferred that those able to transact online were able to do so during that 5 weeks, significantly lessening the amount of subsidy required.

My daughter is a courier in Queenstown. On one day her normal 230 odd parcels to deliver ballooned to over 900 ... including 3 microwaves.

FJRider

27th June 2020, 11:34

The problem I have here is where that Subsidy came from - it didn't magic out of thin air, everything has a cost.

Out of money taken in Tax. To get more tax ... they have to keep the one's working ... working. You dont seem stupid enough to not know that. (Perhaps I was wrong to assume that)

If this was the sole and only incident in the last 3 years where a lower level of government had majorly cocked up, I might be inclined to cut some them some slack, but as previously mentioned, it isn't and the reason for it IMO is 100% down to the Leadership.

The fact that it was (and STILL is) a world wide pandemic that they were trying to contain the spread of ... it wasn't Government Ministers at those places ... telling them who could or could not leave. They had written rules on procedure. Procedure was not followed at those places. Those at the top just failed to ensure the rules were being adhered to. The ones that were at the isolation points didn't do their job. Responsibility at the top. Fault at the bottom.

And what is the cost of a stock market crash and devaluation? As above - the last one in the US cost 250,000 lives to Cancer alone - you might say "How many of those that didn't survive ... wouldn't have for much longer anyway .. ??" - but it is a Cost none-the-less.

Are you saying that the stock market crash and devaluation caused 250,000 cancer deaths in the US ... ??

Exactly - protect those who are most likely to die from it, allowing those who aren't likely to die from it to get on with their lives.

Those that died WERE (supposedly) in safe places ... The "Protections" didn't work. People that weren't tested got exemptions/permission to visit them ... and people died.

Those people that spread it then "got on with their lives" ... and possibly spread it some more ... possibly into areas that didn't have it. Remember the "Bluff wedding" that caused a death ... ??? But that is acceptable as those that spread it get on with their lives.

As for the Group - that would be people who came in from overseas infected and were given a leaflet at the border instead of being tested and kept in Isolation.

How many Ministers of Government (or senior Government officials) were waiting at the airport ... supervising the isolation procedures ... ???