The journey that COVID-19 will take us on [Archive] - Page 8

TheDemonLord

10th February 2022, 13:04

I assume this is your "Proof of Abuse accusation" ... :lol:

The last line is in reference to the claims of abuse you make of me. I provide (Quoted) and clear proof.

Your lack of understanding that CLEAR Indisputable proof of wrongdoing is required for a complaint to be made.

Your interpretation of the above quote is a little off that.

HOWEVER ... feel free to make a formal complaint to the Moderation team in this regard. They probably need a laugh ... :kiollingme

Until then ... any proof regarding those TWO posts I quoted you ... and your accusations in them ... ??

I feel a picture is best used here:

350652

'Have they received any from you for abuse of a member'

That's pretty damn accusatory - given the context and the use of Bold. And the answer is an unequivocal 'No.'

And the second part where I said I've only ever reported one Member (Katman), not for abuse, but for Rep Bombing. And as per that Quoted, you immediately said:

"Just like you do with me you mean".

Seeing as the quote was specifically about reporting members for Rep-Bombing and your reply - that seems a pretty clear accusation that I either rep-bomb you or that I've reported you for such an offense.

Neither of which is true.

I'm gonna be charitable and say based on the subsequent things you've said, it seems to me that you either didn't mean that or (Husbandly duties or otherwise) that you put the wrong comment on the wrong quote. An mistake.

I'm happy to accept that and if you confirm that to be the case, all the subsequent accusations I've made - I'll more than happily retract.

Unless, of course, you do believe that I report people to the mods for abusing me and you think I've rep-bombed you or reported you to the mods for doing it, in which case - feel free to post your evidence (but as I've said, you cannot because it's not something I do)

Fair?

Autech

10th February 2022, 13:05

If you ask any of those that got a positive test result ... of having any of covid variants ... if they ever thought they'd ever get it themselves ... I think you will get the resounding reply of NO from ALL of them.

Go figure ...

Oh I'm fully expecting to get it, if we can actually let it do its normal virusy things and go about it business. Stalling it endlessly is not doing us any favours it seems, meanwhile we're in the red setting for no apparent reason crushing businesses ability to make money.

TheDemonLord

10th February 2022, 13:06

Stalling it endlessly is not doing us any favours it seems, meanwhile we're in the red setting for no apparent reason crushing businesses ability to make money.

Preach!
Testify!

FJRider

10th February 2022, 13:14

Oh I'm fully expecting to get it, if we can actually let it do its normal virusy things and go about it business. Stalling it endlessly is not doing us any favours it seems, meanwhile we're in the red setting for no apparent reason crushing businesses ability to make money.

Aside from the actual fact that some viruses affect different people differently. Even with apparently healthy people ... with flaws in their immune system THEY aren't even aware of prior. If you caught the virus ... Everybody that has had AND (even fleeting contact) would need to be tested. AND quarantined.

They'll thank you later ... maybe.

Good luck.

Autech

10th February 2022, 13:23

Aside from the actual fact that some viruses affect different people differently. Even with apparently healthy people ... with flaws in their immune system THEY aren't even aware of prior. If you caught the virus ... Everybody that has had AND (even fleeting contact) would need to be tested. AND quarantined.

They'll thank you later ... maybe.

Good luck.

Yeah I'm well aware of this, especially as I do work in MIQ facilities and have to balance the risk of infection vs getting my job done. As for the flaws, this is what the vaccination is there for, to give everyone the best defence against serious illness.
With some decent RAT availability we should be able to cut down on isolation time like they're doing overseas. If we use the technologies available to us that is...

Stuff stream is heating up a bit finally. Good viewing :D

FJRider

10th February 2022, 13:50

... meanwhile we're in the red setting for no apparent reason crushing businesses ability to make money.

I'm still making money.

Those with freedoms missing ... can usually be blamed for their own situation.

The onus of duty of care ... is on the individual. Both to themselves ... AND others.

If they look ... those with claims of loss of freedoms ... lack the duty of care to others.

As such ... I don't care about them. It's their problem ... not mine.

FJRider

10th February 2022, 14:07

'Have they received any from you for abuse of a member'

That's pretty damn accusatory - given the context and the use of Bold. And the answer is an unequivocal 'No.'

And the second part where I said I've only ever reported one Member (Katman), not for abuse, but for Rep Bombing. And as per that Quoted, you immediately said:

"Just like you do with me you mean".

The top bit is a simple question ... inference it is something else is entirely your choice of thought.

The second bit I thought I explained a few posts back.

What you may (or may not) believe is entirely up to you.

If you truly believe I have unjustly accused you of anything untoward ... feel free to report it.

If the Moderation team agree with you that YOU have a valid complaint ... they may well take action.

Such is life.

About those two posts and TWO different accusations ... of yours I have been asking about ??? Any simple explanation for those ... ???

A PM reply if you prefer.

Any further claims from you ... of the issue you are claiming of me ... will be considered (seen as) harassment.

TheDemonLord

10th February 2022, 15:11

The top bit is a simple question ... inference it is something else is entirely your choice of thought.

The second bit I thought I explained a few posts back.

What you may (or may not) believe is entirely up to you.

If you truly believe I have unjustly accused you of anything untoward ... feel free to report it.

Not my style, I prefer things out in the open.

I'll take the above as confirmation you didn't mean to say I did either of those things - which is sufficient for me.

About those two posts and TWO different accusations ... of yours I have been asking about ??? Any simple explanation for those ... ???

A PM reply if you prefer.

Any further claims from you ... of the issue you are claiming of me ... will be considered (seen as) harassment.

Since they specifically referred to what I thought you were accusing me of, and as above - you've all but said that you weren't (and I'm happy to take that on good faith), I'll take those back, since you've clarified.

Is that satisfactory?

FJRider

10th February 2022, 17:27

Not my style, I prefer things out in the open.

I'll take the above as confirmation you didn't mean to say I did either of those things - which is sufficient for me.

And fair enough. THANK YOU.

Since they specifically referred to what I thought you were accusing me of, and as above - you've all but said that you weren't (and I'm happy to take that on good faith), I'll take those back, since you've clarified.

Is that satisfactory?

INDEED.

The main reason I inquired ... was as to the cause of a two week "Time-out" awarded to me a year (or so) ago [During the FIRST level 4 lockdown] ... The one armed moderator assured me that ... although no records exist of that ... or what/who was responsible for my "Time-out" ... he did mention Spank Me did a bit of "Moderation" at that time.

As such ... if you choose to consider the matter now closed ... So shall I.

Caution ... I shall STILL continue to point out the errors (I believe) in what you have posted.

Such is life in the forums of Kiwibiker.

PS: The ancient Romans used Geese on the Palatine, one of Rome's seven hills. Legend has it that, during a siege by the Gauls in 390 B.C., the Palatine was saved by honking geese that warned the defenders of an attack. So they aren't completely useless.

Good eating too. But the older one's need a bit of chewing. Garlic helps the taste. Still legal to shoot in season.

Kendog

11th February 2022, 04:56

I did. I bought their science over the science you chose as your authority, because when I compared the 2 (one has to know both sides in order to have a qualified judgement, or one is simply being a parrot), only 1 sides' science could/can actually back the claims that any side is saying. The vaccine has become a jab despite the testing claiming that it would give 90+% protection for life after 2 doses, nope 3, nope 4, and maybe for 6 months, well, best go every 4 months, nah, make it 3........... When reality doesn't match testing, mistakes have been made, or lies have been sold. The theory behind mRNa technology is actually quite amazing and in theory again, should have worked a charm. It didn't. Why not? And why are we still pushing like little children to force someone to do something that little evidence backs, outwith the evidence from the circus that clearly brought you a shit product, (2 or 3 companies, not entire countries and governments), indemnified by governments, with the field results under lock and key for 55 years (not sure if that decision has been granted yet)? And you go for flat earth. Of course you do, because you have no real evidence, just the evidence of those who got it wrong.

Have you ever talked to someone who believes the earth is flat?
They talk just like you, TDL and 650R in this thread.
They get so caught up in their science they seem unwilling to see the world for what it really is.

I’ve enjoyed reading and commenting up to now, but just like talking to a flat earther, I’m tired of the single mindedness the minority display. Especially towards the seriousness of this pandemic. They (and you, TDL, 650R) get so deep into their alternate version of reality it becomes seemingly impossible to see the truth.

I thought this threads lowest point would be the promoting of a person that said it would magically disappear, it’s all under control, inject yourself with disinfectant etc etc.
But to link the Covid response to the holocaust :(
I should of left this thread then.
I’m out now.

mashman

11th February 2022, 06:50

Have you ever talked to someone who believes the earth is flat?
They talk just like you, TDL and 650R in this thread.
They get so caught up in their science they seem unwilling to see the world for what it really is.

99.9% of you can't handle the fact that how we live is unsustainable. Your frames of reference for calling dibs on eality are FUBAR. Have I ever talked to someone who believes the earth is flat despite the overwhelming evidence produced every year that proves it is? :killingme :crybaby: :killingme

I’ve enjoyed reading and commenting up to now, but just like talking to a flat earther, I’m tired of the single mindedness the minority display. Especially towards the seriousness of this pandemic. They (and you, TDL, 650R) get so deep into their alternate version of reality it becomes seemingly impossible to see the truth.

If you were taking the pandemic seriously, you would have looked into the evidence and science being produced by both sets of professionals in order to make a judgement instead of letting 3 identical people (still makes me laugh, the capitalist libertarian, the outright cacpitalist, and the 'anti-capitalist'), stop you from doing your own due diligence ... nice one bruv, coz that did make me lol. "I didn't read it". "Why not". "Because those 3 followed that science.".

And you want me to believe that you have something more than just a solid grasp of reality. Based on what? Polly... Polly... Polly wants a cracker and not a jot of science to date.

On a more personal note: I take the pandemic very seriously, as do the anti-mandate protestors. That you fucking idiots can label those there anti-vaxxers shows just how how little logic, reason and common sense you have applied to viewing the actions of human beings during this pandemic. There are vaccinated people there too. This is a lesbian protest i.e. they are anti-mandaters. Can't make the very clear distinction between the two like the media? Then you're clearly a fucking parrot that's listening to the one single source of truth without looking at that evidence either... hence why so many can;t reconcile testing with reality and are scratching their heads as to why... ney, they are writing it off as a meh thing and then decrying anyone who doesn't agree with stabbing everyone. Go fuck yourself you sanctmonious twat, I mean, Polly.

TheDemonLord

11th February 2022, 08:41

And fair enough. THANK YOU.

INDEED.

The main reason I inquired ... was as to the cause of a two week "Time-out" awarded to me a year (or so) ago [During the FIRST level 4 lockdown] ... The one armed moderator assured me that ... although no records exist of that ... or what/who was responsible for my "Time-out" ... he did mention Spank Me did a bit of "Moderation" at that time.

As such ... if you choose to consider the matter now closed ... So shall I.

Done, and just for clarity - definitely wasn't me.

Caution ... I shall STILL continue to point out the errors (I believe) in what you have posted.

I'd expect nothing less, hell it would get suspiciously boring if everyone started agreeing with me.

TheDemonLord

11th February 2022, 08:56

Have you ever talked to someone who believes the earth is flat?
They talk just like you, TDL and 650R in this thread.
They get so caught up in their science they seem unwilling to see the world for what it really is.

They really don't.

Mashman made the observation, but I'll make it also:

Myself, R650 and Mashman have very little in common as far as ideology goes.

I'm a British Libertarian - I believe in natural rights and all the things that spawn from them (such as Capitalism)
Mashman is an RBE afficianado - you can ask him for his definition, mine is that it's Communism with a fresh coat of paint.
R650R - I'd put him more as just simply a Rebel, and nothing wrong with that.

I've very rarely made claims specifically on the Science itself. Most of my objections are on the POLICY and that it violates Natural Rights and has been a massive over-reaction.

Especially towards the seriousness of this pandemic. They (and you, TDL, 650R) get so deep into their alternate version of reality it becomes seemingly impossible to see the truth.

How do you define seriousness? By Total Deaths? Sure it's serious.
By the individual risk of Death? It's not that serious.

What time and Data has shown is that for those under 65 and without pre-existing conditions (those whose conditions aren't their fault have my sympathy, those that are self-inflicted do not) are highly unlikely to die. Great!

Further to that, the Vaccine mostly does what it claimed to do - to stop those who are at a higher risk of dying... from dying.

So let's make the Vaccine freely available (which we did), Those that choose to be vaccinated can do so, those that choose not to can take the risk and let's all get on with our lives without any coercion or mandates or removal of Rights.

Simple.

Then now that the new variant, by all reputable data, is mostly non-lethal (in the same realms as the seasonal Flu), even better! Drop the passports, drop the scanning app, kick the restrictions, Job done. But Stalinda couldn't let all that power go, so we are still in red.

Two heartening bits of news: The Protest at Parliament and that the number of times the tracing app has been used is dropping significantly. The claim was that it's just a fringe minority opposed to this, but the drastic drop in scanning shows that there's a silent Majority that's fed up with their rights being curtailed.

But to link the Covid response to the holocaust :(

I mean, there was nearly 50% of a specific political group were okay with putting the Unvaccinated in Concentration camps, I didn't make that up.

And you still haven't condemned that.... Funny...

husaberg

11th February 2022, 12:36

Have you ever talked to someone who believes the earth is flat?
They talk just like you, TDL and 650R in this thread.
They get so caught up in their science they seem unwilling to see the world for what it really is.

I’ve enjoyed reading and commenting up to now, but just like talking to a flat earther, I’m tired of the single mindedness the minority display. Especially towards the seriousness of this pandemic. They (and you, TDL, 650R) get so deep into their alternate version of reality it becomes seemingly impossible to see the truth.

I thought this threads lowest point would be the promoting of a person that said it would magically disappear, it’s all under control, inject yourself with disinfectant etc etc.
But to link the Covid response to the holocaust :(
I should of left this thread then.
I’m out now.

https://i.imgflip.com/3iy7xp.jpg

just add them to ignore it cuts down the clutter.
Every time have bothered to read a post of one of the worst I am quickly reminded why they were on ignore, they have different forms of reality they love to claim arguments that were never made and will not accept anything that counters their original view no matter how stupidly far fetched they have to delve down to find any support and often the fact they have no evidence to support their claims they somehow view as being the evidence that makes their claims true.
The only logical conclusion they project their own inadequacies on to others as some form of narcissistic support.

TheDemonLord

11th February 2022, 16:36

just add them to ignore it cuts down the clutter.
Every time have bothered to read a post of one of the worst I am quickly reminded why they were on ignore, they have different forms of reality they love to claim arguments that were never made and will not accept anything that counters their original view no matter how stupidly far fetched they have to delve down to find any support and often the fact they have no evidence to support their claims they somehow view as being the evidence that makes their claims true.
The only logical conclusion they project their own inadequacies on to others as some form of narcissistic support.

Awwww Hunny, are you taking the Divorce badly?

R650R

12th February 2022, 14:30

Awwww Hunny, are you taking the Divorce badly?

Ignore :rofl::rofl::rofl: it would have nothing to contribute if it actually ignored us haha 🤣

pete376403

12th February 2022, 16:21

Ignore :rofl::rofl::rofl: it would have nothing to contribute if it actually ignored us haha 🤣

"it ignore us"? Are you channeling Gollum?

husaberg

12th February 2022, 16:29

"it ignore us"? Are you channeling Gollum?

KB last troll using the same MO was similar
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=318992&d=1451880662

husaberg

12th February 2022, 17:05

Ignore :rofl::rofl::rofl: it would have nothing to contribute if it actually ignored us haha ��

Did you get marge to write for you.

You could be right, some stats follow... just on a side note does anyone have accurate data on infection rate by political part allegiance?????

Anyway I looked up South Carolina as they have similar population to NZ....

784k cases.... 11k dead.... the covid fatals being a rate of 116 per 100,000 population

But what’s their other health stats????

A staggering 34% (of whole population) are OBESE!!!
13% diabetic
22% children live in poverty so assume the parents do too

Cancer deaths are normally 201 per 100,000
Cardio/heart 278 per 100,000
Workplace deaths 7 per 100,000
Guns 20 per 100,000
Homicides 11 per 100,000
640 cases chlamidia per 100,000 (not normally fatal but uncomfortable I would guess)

America cause some freedom before death would be nice... Your numbers say about 1/4 of the population have had it but less than 1% dead. Currently 50% of the people on this forum will get a cancer of some kind. The death rate for cancer is orders of magnitude higher than covid....
Yet we still selling refined sugar, alcohol, chemical laden “skincare” products and let workers do long hours/shift work which is proven to reduce lifespan....

The moment of truth is upon us now we have 500,000 people unvaccinated vs the unstoppable omicron train which spreads so fast it renders contact tracing redundant. We will soon see just how “accurate” the scientists modelling is....

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ea1673133c49cb7544dc5c5cbe69d7aa-lq

R650R

13th February 2022, 08:32

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/127738970/omicron-nz-explaining-covid19-modelling-and-why-its-so-contentious

R650R

13th February 2022, 08:47

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127749367/covid19-new-poll-reveals-many-kiwis-still-living-lockdown-life-over-omicron-fears

Pity they didn’t put a question in the survey....
“Are you staying home to avoid supporting communist owned businesses and the hassle of masks and scanning?”

*****TRIGGER WARNING*****

Quote follows from reputable mainstream medical establishment.

******* TRIGGER WARNING*******

Brace yourself

“The medical director of the Royal New Zealand College of General Practitioners says that number “100 per cent” reflects what he’s seeing and it’s a huge concern. While all eyes are on the pandemic, other illnesses and health issues are waiting in the wings.”

“He says the situation hasn’t been helped by a “fair degree of scaremongering” in the media and predictions of case numbers that haven’t borne out.

“My feeling about Omicron is that we’re dealing with a bad flu or respiratory-type virus situation outside of winter.The problem we’re running into is at what point are we doing more harm than good?”

husaberg

13th February 2022, 11:08

TheDemonLord

13th February 2022, 11:17

KB last troll using the same MO was similar

It's bad form to make accusations against people who cannot defend themselves.

mulletman

13th February 2022, 15:08

This lot dont look like Destiny church people to me, look more like kiwis from all walks of life - good on em :woohoo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af32OA3OQQk

husaberg

13th February 2022, 15:35

This lot dont look like Destiny church people to me, look more like kiwis from all walks of life - good on em :woohoo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af32OA3OQQk

3.50 Every boy had the right to be an All Black bullshit, no that takes talent and hard work. its not a right.

11.24 anti gov protester quotes govt "we have got this" commentator never realises.

pritch

16th February 2022, 08:30

Did you get marge to write for you.

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ea1673133c49cb7544dc5c5cbe69d7aa-lq

Ah yes Mad Marge is a gem. She thought the Californian forest fires were started by Jewish lasers fired from space. People really do need to be more careful who they elect to public office.

This is one of her latest gems. She confused Gestapo and gazpacho. It's easy to have a brain fart and misspeak but the evidence suggests Marge doesn't actually know the difference. I'm definitely having gazpacho of dinner, not the Gestapo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd9RifhL-cA

husaberg

16th February 2022, 17:34

Ah yes Mad Marge is a gem. She thought the Californian forest fires were started by Jewish lasers fired from space. People really do need to be more careful who they elect to public office.

This is one of her latest gems. She confused Gestapo and gazpacho. It's easy to have a brain fart and misspeak but the evidence suggests Marge doesn't actually know the difference. I'm definitely having gazpacho of dinner, not the Gestapo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd9RifhL-cA

Ms Greene opened her news conference saying: "I just always want to remind everyone I'm very much a normal person."

Before arriving in Congress, Ms Greene voiced support for unfounded conspiracy theories, including the QAnon claim that elite Democrats are part of a cabal of Satan-worshipping paedophiles and cannibals, as well as an anti-Semitic claim suggesting a space laser was used to deliberately start a California wildfire.
after appearing on a conservative podcast and comparing COVID-19 safety requirements adopted by Democrats controlling the House to "a time and history where people were told to wear a gold star."
She said they were "put in trains and taken to gas chambers in Nazi Germany. This is exactly the type of abuse that Nancy Pelosi is talking about".

In February, the Democratic-led House of Representatives stripped her of two high-profile committee assignments after remarks that included support for violence against Democrats.

Then, too, Ms Greene distanced herself from such statements, saying: "These were words of the past and these things do not represent me."

Former President Trump blasted Twitter in a statement Monday evening, one day after it permanently suspended the personal account of Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) for violating its COVID-19 misinformation policy.

In a tweet posted in July which prompted a one-week suspension, Ms Greene claimed coronavirus "is not dangerous for non-obese people and those under 65".
According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, people under 65 account for nearly 250,000 of the country's COVID-related deaths

Marjorie Taylor Greene publicly apologises for comments she made on a podcast three weeks ago.
on a conservative podcast and comparing COVID-19 safety requirements adopted by Democrats controlling the House to "a time and history where people were told to wear a gold star."

She said they were "put in trains and taken to gas chambers in Nazi Germany. This is exactly the type of abuse that Nancy Pelosi is talking about".
Also

Ms Greene previously blasted the suspension as a "communist-style attack on free speech".

Trump called the social media network "a disgrace to democracy," adding that the company "shouldn't be allowed to do business in this Country."
"Marjorie Taylor Greene has a huge constituency of honest, patriotic, hard-working people," Trump said. "They don’t deserve what’s happened to them on places like low-life Twitter and Facebook."

mulletman

19th February 2022, 07:39

Good read

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018831132/dr-bryan-betty-suggests-change-of-mindset-with-omicron

TheDemonLord

19th February 2022, 09:04

Good read

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018831132/dr-bryan-betty-suggests-change-of-mindset-with-omicron

However, in the last four to five weeks, the situation has changed dramatically with Omicron, which is not Delta - it's much more like a common cold, flu-like illness.

I'll be accepting apologies and acknowledgements that I was right all along.

Preferably made out in Cash.

pritch

19th February 2022, 09:39

Good read

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018831132/dr-bryan-betty-suggests-change-of-mindset-with-omicron

He's a doctor, but he's only one person, other doctors disagree. There are still some 3,000 people a day dying in the USA, a cold it ain't. Hopefully the government's vaccination policy will work here.

Viking01

19th February 2022, 10:04

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.14.480335v1.full

mulletman

19th February 2022, 11:47

He's a doctor, but he's only one person, other doctors disagree. There are still some 3,000 people a day dying in the USA, a cold it ain't. Hopefully the government's vaccination policy will work here.

Theres still over 340,000,000 yanks be ok plenty more of them, be interesting to know if the deaths were because of covid or died with covid cause our death toll in NZ included the guy shot by Police that had covid...its included in our toll.

The US Supreme court over turned mandates there , our Govt should as well

TheDemonLord

19th February 2022, 14:40

He's a doctor, but he's only one person, other doctors disagree. There are still some 3,000 people a day dying in the USA, a cold it ain't. Hopefully the government's vaccination policy will work here.

The person that discovered said it was similar to a Cold...

But I guess she's also just one Doctor...

And all the other scientists who have said that Omicron is far less deadly, I guess they are all just one person, too...

F5 Dave

19th February 2022, 15:45

Theres still over 340,000,000 yanks be ok plenty more of them, be interesting to know if the deaths were because of covid or died with covid cause our death toll in NZ included the guy shot by Police that had covid...its included in our toll.
. l
Citation required before I believe that. Seriously, where did you get that information? Facebook?

Kickaha

19th February 2022, 17:13

Citation required before I believe that. Seriously, where did you get that information? Facebook?

He was initially included in the figures but once the proper coroners report is done he should be removed

onearmedbandit

19th February 2022, 18:04

Citation required before I believe that. Seriously, where did you get that information? Facebook?

It was the main stream news sources although it wasn't a police shooting.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-shooting-new-lynn-victim-robert-hart-tests-positive-for-covid-19/J7GON3TOB44563L4WWJYTUZNCQ/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300451032/new-lynn-homicide-man-senselessly-shot-dead-outside-motel-had-covid19

https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/11/new-lynn-shooting-victim-was-positive-for-covid-19/

husaberg

19th February 2022, 18:09

It was the main stream news sources although it wasn't a police shooting.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-shooting-new-lynn-victim-robert-hart-tests-positive-for-covid-19/J7GON3TOB44563L4WWJYTUZNCQ/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300451032/new-lynn-homicide-man-senselessly-shot-dead-outside-motel-had-covid19

https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/11/new-lynn-shooting-victim-was-positive-for-covid-19/

https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/news-items/further-information-deaths-associated-covid-19

F5 Dave

19th February 2022, 19:08

It was the main stream news sources although it wasn't a police shooting.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-shooting-new-lynn-victim-robert-hart-tests-positive-for-covid-19/J7GON3TOB44563L4WWJYTUZNCQ/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/300451032/new-lynn-homicide-man-senselessly-shot-dead-outside-motel-had-covid19

https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/11/11/new-lynn-shooting-victim-was-positive-for-covid-19/
Only the 3rd one indicates inclusion in figures.

Coroner report will weed that out pretty quickly.

mulletman

19th February 2022, 19:59

Citation required before I believe that. Seriously, where did you get that information? Facebook?

Never have signed up to the bookface etc fuck that.

husaberg

19th February 2022, 20:34

Only the 3rd one indicates inclusion in figures.

Coroner report will weed that out pretty quickly.

In my link it indicates that is the std international practice.
it even alludes to this one death

COVID-19 deaths includes all cases that died who was classified as an active case of COVID-19 at the time of death. In some of these cases, the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to COVID-19.

The Ministry’s clinical criteria for reporting a COVID-19 death will continue to be guided by the World Health Organization’s definition for deaths due to COVID-19.

Deaths being investigated by the Coroner will remain under investigation until the Coroner’s finding has been determined. The Ministry will report this information daily on its website. This reflects that it can take some time for the Coroner to determine their findings, as well as formal notification processes carried out by the DHB.

As of 9am 25 November, 41 individuals have died who having COVID-19, and 30 of these deaths are classified as due to COVID-19, one death was not due to COVID-19, and the cause of death of the remaining ten has not been finalised. This data will be updated as privacy provisions allow to ensure personal information, is not personally identifiable.

onearmedbandit

20th February 2022, 07:53

Only the 3rd one indicates inclusion in figures.

Coroner report will weed that out pretty quickly.

Fair point, I just quickly googled the story as it was well known at the time that he was included in the death tally. I was really just trying to point out that just because you are not aware of something doesn't mean it's 'FaceBook' news.

F5 Dave

20th February 2022, 19:47

I have a hand written note on my screen at work.

Dont try to add to strong arguments with weak ones.

Side effects; may cause heart palpation, cancer, bad breath and dandruff.

Well that doesn't seem so bad, I have listerine and good shampoo.

The general public really are not qualified to be disseminating health information on such a powerful media platform. Confirmation bias will get a distorted message across.

R650R

22nd February 2022, 15:14

Once again Ive been proven right....

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/127852436/locations-of-interest-cutback-as-omicron-spreads

husaberg

22nd February 2022, 16:21

Once again Ive been proven right....

You are the same person that said the delta variant you claimed had failed to deliver.....
That person who claimed covid only "allegedly" killed people...
That same person who claimed masks and lock downs were not required for covid 19
Lady you should just slink off and hide with you barely over min wage paycheck

F5 Dave

22nd February 2022, 17:42

You couldn't be right if you turned the other way from left.. dream on R666

TheDemonLord

22nd February 2022, 18:00

You couldn't be right if you turned the other way from left.. dream on R666

If you turn left enough, eventually you'll be going right :msn-wink:

neels

22nd February 2022, 18:47

If you turn left enough, eventually you'll be going right :msn-wink:
Or around in fucking circles, which is probably where we are at the moment.

Interesting that Simon and Garfunkel summed up social media circle jerking and conspiracy theory so long ago...

Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, mhmm

TheDemonLord

22nd February 2022, 18:59

Or around in fucking circles, which is probably where we are at the moment.

Although, if you go around in circles fast enough, you'll eventually reach orbit and head for the stars, so maybe it's not all bad...

Interesting that Simon and Garfunkel summed up social media circle jerking and conspiracy theory so long ago...

Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest, mhmm

I'll admit, I know of them - but not really up-to-date on their catalogue.

but Musical jokes aside - isn't such an observation (presumably decades ago, before the rise of Social Media) interesting? Like there is some fundamental essence of what it is to be Human that remains unchanged?

As I get older, the more I see Wisdom in ancient knowledge. Case in point - you can read Macbeth or Romeo and Juliet today and though times have changed, technology has changed, the key human elements have not.

Increasingly, this is where I fall back on those British Liberal principles that worked so well and for so long - things like Free Speech. Yeah, we might have to tolerate some nutjob spouting off nonsense, but the alternative is much worse.

TL;DR - The technology maybe new, but humans aren't.

R650R

22nd February 2022, 19:25

https://youtu.be/tlygUb9RVgA

husaberg

22nd February 2022, 20:24

https://youtu.be/tlygUb9RVgA

That bit at 13.24 when he alludes to raising the wage for truck drivers to above min wage was inspiring....

mashman

22nd February 2022, 21:15

husaberg

22nd February 2022, 23:06

Proof is proof. (https://thebfd.co.nz/2021/09/01/australian-mp-craig-kelly-interviews-dr-brian-tyson-20th-august-2021/) Posting again just coz it seems that some people are still under the delusion that there's no proof of tried, tested and well documented treatments out there. Can't handle it and feel the need to batter away at your keyboard showing me who you really are by trying to tell me what or who you think I Am, snigger, then you've missed the point. Some science can't be denied... but it can be ignored and sold to gullible morons as worthy of mandating something completely unncessary and unfit for purpose... but hey, that's scence v's human opinion for ya. The government said it's ok :killingme :crybaby: :killingme

proof is what people keep asking you to back up your claims re Covid cures only it seems you cant ever produce credible proof, Yet you just go on making claims.
Proof is not the dyslexic mate you do the reach around after a few beers Gordon.

pete376403

23rd February 2022, 07:22

Proof is proof. (https://thebfd.co.nz/2021/09/01/australian-mp-craig-kelly-interviews-dr-brian-tyson-20th-august-2021/) Posting again just coz it seems that some people are still under the delusion that there's no proof of tried, tested and well documented treatments out there. Can't handle it and feel the need to batter away at your keyboard showing me who you really are by trying to tell me what or who you think I Am, snigger, then you've missed the point. Some science can't be denied... but it can be ignored and sold to gullible morons as worthy of mandating something completely unncessary and unfit for purpose... but hey, that's scence v's human opinion for ya. The government said it's ok :killingme :crybaby: :killingme

An anti vax MP interviewing an anti vax doctor on an anti vax website is proof? And the anti vax doctor does not publish his findings - a comment on that interview " 6000 cases with 4 hospitalisations and zero deaths? That sounds like incredibly good results. My immediate take is why has Dr.Tyson not published these results, even onto one of the web-based publishing sites? "

And Craig Kelly must be pretty bad if Facebook have banned him for misleading information
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/26/mp-craig-kelly-absolutely-outraged-after-facebook-removes-his-page-for-misinformation

mashman

23rd February 2022, 09:11

An anti vax MP interviewing an anti vax doctor on an anti vax website is proof? And the anti vax doctor does not publish his findings - a comment on that interview " 6000 cases with 4 hospitalisations and zero deaths? That sounds like incredibly good results. My immediate take is why has Dr.Tyson not published these results, even onto one of the web-based publishing sites? "

And Craig Kelly must be pretty bad if Facebook have banned him for misleading information
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/26/mp-craig-kelly-absolutely-outraged-after-facebook-removes-his-page-for-misinformation

He has offered his evidence to anyone who wants it (obviously medical confidentionality limits to whom). He was successfully treating Covid with these drugs before the jab, because he was a part of a collective of doctors who didn't sit there and do nothing. Yet you find it hard to believe that front-line doctors are capable of such things? Moreover you think they're lying because of their position on the jab? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... They had their findings i.e. people cured with the evidence to prove tt, ready to present in August 2020, and yet no one has wanted to see it. The Mccullough et al paper from 2020 outlining the collective findings at the time is still waiting to be peer reviewed 18 months later i.e. it hasn't even been looked at yet despite the claims it was making at the time, and despite the fact that the jab is a bust.

But sure, let's go the conspiracy-theory road given that his claims have not been confrmed nor denied by anyone after 18 months of treating people with drugs that countries around the globe have banned as treatments because of their dangers... and yet in the most litigious country in the world, these guys are still doing that very thing. :killingme...

The evidence is not in your favour in the slightest, but by all means carry on towing the official line while people are evidenced to be dying needlessly, either directly or indirectly because of the virus. It's hard to change ones mind when one didn't make ones mind up for oneself in the first place, and damned near impossible if you can't rationalise information ouwith its source.

You do realise it's the information and not the people that's the important thing yeah... again a lack of question mark underlines just how much you guys are incapable of such things.

husaberg

23rd February 2022, 17:26

He has offered his evidence to anyone who wants it (obviously medical confidentionality limits to whom). He was successfully treating Covid with these drugs before the jab, because he was a part of a collective of doctors who didn't sit there and do nothing. Yet you find it hard to believe that front-line doctors are capable of such things? Moreover you think they're lying because of their position on the jab? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... They had their findings i.e. people cured with the evidence to prove tt, ready to present in August 2020, and yet no one has wanted to see it. The Mccullough et al paper from 2020 outlining the collective findings at the time is still waiting to be peer reviewed 18 months later i.e. it hasn't even been looked at yet despite the claims it was making at the time, and despite the fact that the jab is a bust.

But sure, let's go the conspiracy-theory road given that his claims have not been confrmed nor denied by anyone after 18 months of treating people with drugs that countries around the globe have banned as treatments because of their dangers... and yet in the most litigious country in the world, these guys are still doing that very thing. :killingme...

The evidence is not in your favour in the slightest, but by all means carry on towing the official line while people are evidenced to be dying needlessly, either directly or indirectly because of the virus. It's hard to change ones mind when one didn't make ones mind up for oneself in the first place, and damned near impossible if you can't rationalise information ouwith its source.

You do realise it's the information and not the people that's the important thing yeah... again a lack of question mark underlines just how much you guys are incapable of such things.

he's claimed to have had his 100% success rate on his own selected people he claimed to have also tested positive for covid
using non-approved tests with non-checked factual results using non-approved drugs.

its nothing to do with a conspiracy he will not submit to scruunty as his claims are 999.99 likely not to stand up to any scrutiny.
if his therapies were factual the makers of the drugs would make sure everyone knew as they would make money selling the cure

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/188175-The-journey-that-COVID-19-will-take-us-on?p=1131191221#post1131191221

What there are using is made up crap......
You are as usual swallowing it land lapping it all up ike the Coprophiliac you are.

You're certainly not missing much dave, Mashies latest Messiah is a quack, who does his own covid testing and "invented" a 100% effective in his own words cure for covid.

EL CENTRO — The owner of a local walk-in clinic says his practice was misrepresented in a recent article questioning its testing methods and billing for COVID-19.

Wow, let's see his clinic is not exactly as big nor as grand as is made out either, it's a hole-in-the-wall clinic. that opened in 2018

https://www.thedesertreview.com/business/all-valley-urgent-care-officially-opens-the-doors/article_b7548128-2b53-11e8-86b9-c7166af8522e.html
Situated between a lowes and a Costco Down by a Wendy's, a Target, and a Taco Bell.
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/ivpressonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/d9/cd94225c-aad8-11ea-a86e-33c6deaedb8f/5ee06ba083532.image.jpg

349693349715

But he's mashy's new idol as he by his own claims which are of course backed up by zero trial results is he 100% cures covid 100% of the time.
but he has no trial results to back it other than his own claims which its seems are based on his own results and his own tests with no peer reviews.
He uses his own test not a recognized test its a Xray which he charges for then performs a diagnosis that no one else ican n the medical profession from an xray and the test that is no to be used as atest to detect covid. as it can tell between someone with the disease or has been simply exposed to it or has antibodies or has been vacvinated.
He then treats the patients he has "diagnosed" with a drug the medical profession has trailed and found not to work at all. plus other expensive vitamins
A drug that Trump took before he actually had covid.

What this numpty does is use a test that's actually an antibody test not recommended to test for the presence of covid then he decided he could use an Xray.

By his own words he said these people were not even sick enough to warrant testing by the medical profession

this is what the CDC and the labs say about the test he uses
Antibody testing does not replace virologic testing and should not be used to establish the presence or absence of acute SARS-CoV-2 infection.
Antibody tests yielding qualitative or semi-quantitative results have been issued EUAs; there currently is no recognized public health or clinical indication for preferential use of semi-quantitative tests.
Antibody testing is not currently recommended to assess for immunity to SARS-CoV-2 following COVID-19 vaccination, to assess the need for vaccination in an unvaccinated person, or to determine the need to quarantine after a close contact with someone who has COVID-19. Some antibody tests will not detect the antibodies generated by COVID-19 vaccines. Because these vaccines induce antibodies to specific viral protein targets, post-vaccination antibody test results will be negative in persons without history of previous infection, if the test used does not detect antibodies induced by the vaccine.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/resources/antibody-tests-guidelines.html

pritch

24th February 2022, 08:58

And all the other scientists who have said that Omicron is far less deadly, I guess they are all just one person, too...

Less deadly is relative. Thousands dying every day is still deadly.

R650R

24th February 2022, 14:29

Who are the idiots that are going to pay for a RAT test?
If you think you are sick your not supposed to go out or to work etc anyway
If you think you have covid you can get a free supervised rat test at GP etc.....
This could be the next con job they will end vaccine passes but you’ll have to pay for and present a rat test to get into concert, bar or restaurant.
Unbelievable.....
And oh this deadly virus is so contagious your only a close contact if living in same house....
And wait for it.... we are now going to talking hospitalisations instead of case numbers.....
Cause they don’t want people doing primary school level maths and aski g what are we scared of ...

TheDemonLord

24th February 2022, 15:24

Less deadly is relative. Thousands dying every day is still deadly.

And is not outside the realms for other issues - like Obesity or Alcohol or Cancers caused by carcinogenic substances.

One quick look at who is dying - it's the same demographic that dies of the Seasonal Flu.

R650R

26th February 2022, 05:32

Once again a mainstream news article proves me correct from what I said couple months ago after observing overseas trends.

Read it and weep, no need for apologies thank you

Quite nice of comrade Putin to start WW4 do Stalinda could slip this out...,,

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127879922/vaccine-passes-and-covid19-contact-tracing-becoming-irrelevant-could-be-scrapped

FJRider

26th February 2022, 07:54

Once again a mainstream news article proves me correct from what I said couple months ago after observing overseas trends.

Read it and weep, no need for apologies thank you

Quite nice of comrade Putin to start WW4 do Stalinda could slip this out...,,

Note ... just near the bottom.

health officials are considering both scrapping and strengthening the vaccine pass system.

Aside from the fact that it's Stuff that that you're basing your revelations on ... ;)

pete376403

26th February 2022, 08:50

Berries

26th February 2022, 09:21

Once again a mainstream news article proves me correct from what I said couple months ago after observing overseas trends.

You posted the wrong link. This one seems to be up your alley - wellington-protesters-make-tin-foil-hats (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300527308/wellington-protesters-make-tin-foil-hats-to-protect-them-from-illness)

R650R

26th February 2022, 14:24

WW4? Have I missed one?

Gulf War one was widely regarded in military circles as WW3 due to scale, multi nation involvement and complex logistics. Although the media made it look easy perhaps Saddam had some good gear and in large numbers. And it wasn’t till first bombing raids that the RAF found out the true extent of massive anti air defences....

R650R

26th February 2022, 14:27

You posted the wrong link. This one seems to be up your alley - wellington-protesters-make-tin-foil-hats (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300527308/wellington-protesters-make-tin-foil-hats-to-protect-them-from-illness)

Haha I did see some of that in news. Would be interesting to see how many genuine believer vs a pisstake or stirup of media etc....
I wouldn’t wear one much easier to just not be at an exposure location

husaberg

26th February 2022, 16:36

Gulf War one was widely regarded in military circles as WW3 due to scale, multi nation involvement and complex logistics. Although the media made it look easy perhaps Saddam had some good gear and in large numbers. And it wasn’t till first bombing raids that the RAF found out the true extent of massive anti air defences....
Really the british only lost 7 fixed-wing aircraft.
The entire coalition only had only 75 aircraft losses in over 100,000 sorties, though only 42 of these were the result of Iraqi action.

TheDemonLord

26th February 2022, 16:47

Gulf War one was widely regarded in military circles as WW3 due to scale, multi nation involvement and complex logistics. Although the media made it look easy perhaps Saddam had some good gear and in large numbers. And it wasn’t till first bombing raids that the RAF found out the true extent of massive anti air defences....

It was realistically restricted to one region. Sure there was Global involvement, but the Invasion of Iraq would be a footnote in something like the North Africa Campaign, which itself is a chapter in WW2.

And despite having a deep interest in Military history - this is the first time I've ever heard of the Gulf War being even tangentially referred to as WW3.

sugilite

26th February 2022, 17:20

It was realistically restricted to one region. Sure there was Global involvement, but the Invasion of Iraq would be a footnote in something like the North Africa Campaign, which itself is a chapter in WW2.

And despite having a deep interest in Military history - this is the first time I've ever heard of the Gulf War being even tangentially referred to as WW3.

Yep, it was more like oil grab 3.

F5 Dave

26th February 2022, 19:02

So where's my cheaper oil?

TheDemonLord

26th February 2022, 19:14

So where's my cheaper oil?

Back in 1994 ;)

(I remember when it was a Dollar a Litre, and we complained when it got to a $1.20....)

pete376403

26th February 2022, 19:53

Back in 1994 ;)

(I remember when it was a Dollar a Litre, and we complained when it got to a $1.20....)
!
I remember when the owner of the Chrysler dealership I worked at said "people will never pay more than a dollar per gallon".Those were the days ('72 ish) when the Valiant Charger A84 track pack option included a 35 gallon fuel tank. 132 litres of premium today, near $400 to fill

R650R

27th February 2022, 08:28

Saddam would have carried on into Saudi Arabia, steam rolled them and then controlled 65% of world production.....
So your oils cheaper than what that outcome would have rendered.....

I ran a small servo back when petrol was 86 cents litre. Whatever crisis in the world was happening had ended and price was fropping to 83.... we hadn’t dropped our price yet ... I remember a customer shrieking to stop halfway thru his massive $20 purchase when he saw ourvpump still set to 86!!!!!
I think our diesel was around 46-49 cents and we did lot of trucks

TheDemonLord

27th February 2022, 09:24

!
I remember when the owner of the Chrysler dealership I worked at said "people will never pay more than a dollar per gallon".Those were the days ('72 ish) when the Valiant Charger A84 track pack option included a 35 gallon fuel tank. 132 litres of premium today, near $400 to fill

*A moments silence for your Fuel Bill*

TheDemonLord

27th February 2022, 09:25

R650R

27th February 2022, 13:36

Too many people are beginning to talk the truth so media and medical establishment trying to spin themselves out of a hole....

There needs to be a full investigation into ALL “covid” deaths and whether they were FROM or WITH deaths.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/explained/127885970/omicron-nz-why-covid19-hospitalisations-may-not-be-clear-cut

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127901041/covid19-one-person-with-covid19-has-died-14941-new-community-cases

pete376403

27th February 2022, 13:43

Saddam would have carried on into Saudi Arabia, steam rolled them and then controlled 65% of world production.....
So your oils cheaper than what that outcome would have rendered.....

Saddam never had any aspiration to occupy Saudi Arabia. Kuwait was alway the end game, it was always the intention get Kuwait back to being part of Iraq Much like Putin and Ukraine today.

F5 Dave

27th February 2022, 14:55

And Saudi then was both much better armed and aligned with the US. But dont expect clever insight from R666.

FJRider

27th February 2022, 15:46

Too many people are beginning to talk the truth so media and medical establishment trying to spin themselves out of a hole....

There needs to be a full investigation into ALL “covid” deaths and whether they were FROM or WITH deaths.

Did you note ...

At first glance, “with Covid” and “because of Covid” looks like a simple binary, but keep in mind the virus can worsen existing or underlying conditions

If a Covid variant was the "Tipping point" that finally caused the death ... then it would be fair to say Covid was the cause of death.

And "Underlying medical conditions" are not always in the domain of "Elderly".

Government policy regarding Covid deaths ...

Includes all cases that died who were classified as an active case of COVID-19 at the time of death. In some of these cases, the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to COVID

In most reported covid related deaths ... those having underlying conditions relating to the death ... is mentioned as such. In other words ... such causes of death are reported correctly .. AS HAVING underlying conditions at the time of death.

There are varying opinions relating to the importance of actual cause of death. However ... with policy/regulation/privacy issues ... it is usually to follow the preferences of the family involved as to what is reported as being cause of death.

A change of policy ... to always stating the actual cause of death ... might mean some embarrassment in the future to a few still living.

That is to say ... if their cause of death is publicly notified as being of a venereal disease ... the families involved might not be so happy about "Policy".

Be careful what you ask for ... you might get it.

FJRider

27th February 2022, 15:54

Saddam never had any aspiration to occupy Saudi Arabia. Kuwait was alway the end game, it was always the intention get Kuwait back to being part of Iraq Much like Putin and Ukraine today.

Saudi Arabia had the backing of the US ... and the finances ... firepower ... and freedom to kick Saddam's ass into the middle of nowhere.

As you say .. Kuwait was always the target.

But the US needed an excuse. And ... Saddam gave them one.

Only one excuse was needed.

F5 Dave

27th February 2022, 16:08

SadAdam had been stealing Kuwait oil and quietly murdering his own people unopposed. He could have still been doing that to his heart's content if he'd just played the game like a successful Despot.

FJRider

27th February 2022, 16:12

Hmmmm Saddamn or Saudi.

That's a tough moral question if ever I saw one.

Not a difficult choice for the smart ones ... the US have military air bases in Saudi. THEN and NOW.

And NOT including the Saudi's own forces.

All gassed up and ready to go.

The chants there at the time was ... Bring it on Saddam.

F5 Dave

27th February 2022, 17:34

When I was 14 one of the most interesting classes I did was ODC. Origins and Development of Culture.

Mesopotamia was arguably the first civilisation up to 14000 years BC, which speaking of is odd because apparently the earth is only 3000 years old.

Seems odd Soddom Hoosinsane was put in charge of it.

pete376403

27th February 2022, 18:20

Not a difficult choice for the smart ones ... the US have military air bases in Saudi. THEN and NOW..

Mind you that did backfire a bit - Bin Laden was able to use "infidels on the holy ground" to whip up anti-american sentiment, not too difficult when most of saudi is wahhabi, one of the more extreme muslim sects.

TheDemonLord

27th February 2022, 18:50

Not a difficult choice for the smart ones ... the US have military air bases in Saudi. THEN and NOW.

And NOT including the Saudi's own forces.

All gassed up and ready to go.

The chants there at the time was ... Bring it on Saddam.

I wasn't talking about going to war with them, I was talking about which one is/was more reprehensible.

FJRider

27th February 2022, 19:31

Mind you that did backfire a bit - Bin Laden was able to use "infidels on the holy ground" to whip up anti-american sentiment, not too difficult when most of saudi is wahhabi, one of the more extreme muslim sects.

Currently ... there are still five US bases in Saudi Arabia. (Apparently) ... It is better the Infidels die in the defense of Saudi ... than the believers.

Go figure.

FJRider

27th February 2022, 19:38

... I was talking about which one is/was more reprehensible.

There are five US Military Bases in Saudi ... Saudi Arabia is a strong ally of the US ... why do you consider it reprehensible .. ??

FJRider

27th February 2022, 19:43

Yep, it was more like oil grab 3.

At the end ... it was let's put the fires out.

FJRider

27th February 2022, 19:45

So where's my cheaper oil?

Saddam's last action in power was to set fire to all the oil installations.

pete376403

27th February 2022, 20:51

Currently ... there are still five US bases in Saudi Arabia. (Apparently) ... It is better the Infidels die in the defense of Saudi ... than the believers.

Go figure.

If the House of Saud and MBS say the bases can stay then they stay. Bin Laden was selling his story to to the Taliban. Incidentally, "Charlie Wilsons War" (the book, not the movie) has a great load of background about Bin Laden and the Taliban, and how the US thought they were the greatest thing fighting the Russians in Afghanistan, until it all turned against the US

husaberg

27th February 2022, 22:43

If the House of Saud and MBS say the bases can stay then they stay. Bin Laden was selling his story to to the Taliban. Incidentally, "Charlie Wilsons War" (the book, not the movie) has a great load of background about Bin Laden and the Taliban, and how the US thought they were the greatest thing fighting the Russians in Afghanistan, until it all turned against the US

The same wth Sandbag Hussian when he was fighting Iran or Iran when it had another leader previously.

pete376403

28th February 2022, 05:01

The same wth Sandbag Hussian when he was fighting Iran or Iran when it had another leader previously.

Saddam (Iraq, supported by US) was fighting Iran, supported by Russia. Donald Rumsfeld (US Sec Defence)said something like "He (Saddam) might be a bad guy, but he's our bad guy". How quickly the US got over that romance...

TheDemonLord

28th February 2022, 07:48

There are five US Military Bases in Saudi ... Saudi Arabia is a strong ally of the US ... why do you consider it reprehensible .. ??

Whether it's the tacist approval of Terrorism, Lack of Human rights, Torture, killing of journalists, the Wahabist tradition, treatment of Women, Treatment of Gays etc.

Take your pick.

Viking01

28th February 2022, 07:57

Whether it's the tacist approval of Terrorism, Lack of Human rights, Torture, killing of journalists, the Wahabist tradition, treatment of Women, Treatment of Gays etc.

Take your pick.

Morning.

You forgot to include that war that Saudi has been conducting against Yemen (since 2015), and which hardly ever reaches western media :

https://journal-neo.org/2022/02/10/saudi-arabia-levels-up-atrocities-against-yemen-as-allies-offer-muted-response/

Suppose to do so would reveal not only Saudi actions, but all the roles of certain western countries (and their continued sales of weapons to Saudi).

FJRider

28th February 2022, 08:48

Whether it's the tacist approval of Terrorism, Lack of Human rights, Torture, killing of journalists, the Wahabist tradition, treatment of Women, Treatment of Gays etc.

Take your pick.

Bugger ... eh.

You might not want to go there then ... if you're in any of those groups you mentioned.

The idea is ... you learn the rules of the place ... before you go there.

TheDemonLord

28th February 2022, 09:05

Bugger ... eh.

You might not want to go there then ... if you're in any of those groups you mentioned.

The idea is ... you learn the rules of the place ... before you go there.

And how would one stop being a Human?

R650R

28th February 2022, 17:59

Saudi Arabia had the backing of the US ... and the finances ... firepower ... and freedom to kick Saddam's ass into the middle of nowhere.

As you say .. Kuwait was always the target.

But the US needed an excuse. And ... Saddam gave them one.

Only one excuse was needed.

If you read a few articles or books by military experts you’ll quickly find a common theme that their forces are largely incompetent show ponies. Lacking in courage and ability.
Even their alleged terror masterminds turned up to the biggest hijacking of their careers with Stanley knives.... prob so they didn’t accidently cut themselves....

https://youtu.be/Y-VBn8arx0E

pete376403

28th February 2022, 19:20

If you read a few articles or books by military experts you’ll quickly find a common theme that their forces are largely incompetent show ponies. Lacking in courage and ability.
Even their alleged terror masterminds turned up to the biggest hijacking of their careers with Stanley knives.... prob so they didn’t accidently cut themselves....]

What a stupid fucking comment - there was no lack of courage or ability on the hijackers part. They got the knives onto the planes undetected, they successfully took three of the four planes to the intended targets, two of which were completely destroyed. A kill count of over 3000. Pretty fucking good in their eyes. And they were not the terror masterminds, that person was sitting back in Afghanistan or Pakistan

Describe an action by the US even slightly near as effective in terms of outcomes and cost

TheDemonLord

28th February 2022, 21:06

What a stupid fucking comment - there was no lack of courage or ability on the hijackers part. They got the knives onto the planes undetected, they successfully took three of the four planes to the intended targets, two of which were completely destroyed. A kill count of over 3000. Pretty fucking good in their eyes. And they were not the terror masterminds, that person was sitting back in Afghanistan or Pakistan

Describe an action by the US even slightly near as effective in terms of outcomes and cost

I think he's talking more about the Iraqi and Iranian Military in terms of their Courage and ability.

I've read varying things on the Iraqi military. From the conscript soldiers showing the white flag at the first sign of battle all the way up to the Republican Guard giving the US a damn good fight in some instances.

I was reading something else a while ago about Conscript Armies vs Volunteer armies from a Mathematical stand point - the conclusion was that given enough time and Men, a Volunteer army will always be successful. The reasoning being that Manpower that could otherwise be used for either Offensive, Defensive or Logistical duties (in a Volunteer Army) had to be used to simply keep Order and prevent desertion in a Conscript Army.

pete376403

1st March 2022, 07:51

I think he's talking more about the Iraqi and Iranian Military in terms of their Courage and ability..

"biggest hijacking of their careers with Stanley knives" could only mean one thing.

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 08:21

"biggest hijacking of their careers with Stanley knives" could only mean one thing.

I mean, I'll let him confirm himself, but being two separate sentences, I took to be two separate ideas.

pete376403

1st March 2022, 12:39

I mean, I'll let him confirm himself, but being two separate sentences, I took to be two separate ideas.

I don't think R650 is capable of two separate ideas at the same time

R650R

1st March 2022, 14:33

I don't think R650 is capable of two separate ideas at the same time

I didn’t think you were capable of being a terrorist sympathiser... but you just called the alleged 911 hijackers courageous....

FWIW I was definitely referrring to Saudi military’s shortcomings and as a follow on the incompetence off the hijackers....

FJRider

1st March 2022, 15:37

If you read a few articles or books by military experts you’ll quickly find a common theme that their forces are largely incompetent show ponies. Lacking in courage and ability.

But they have money to buy good equipment. And plenty of volunteers to use it.

FJRider

1st March 2022, 15:43

And how would one stop being a Human?

Being human in those countries is overrated. They still wouldn't trust you.

sugilite

1st March 2022, 15:54

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 16:09

Being human in those countries is overrated. They still wouldn't trust you.

I dunno, I've got a very bitching Beard, so I think that would get me some Kudos.

Maybe even a couple of Wives and a Goat.

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 16:11

Fresh numbers in - sobering reading for the unvacinated....
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/data-from-delta-and-omicron-outbreaks-show-1-in-15-unvaccinated-cases-were-hospitalised-significantly-more-than-vaccinated-cases.html

I mean, some of us were saying that Months ago - that the Vaccine appears to do what it promised - stop people from dying...

husaberg

1st March 2022, 16:52

Fresh numbers in - sobering reading for the unvacinated....
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/03/data-from-delta-and-omicron-outbreaks-show-1-in-15-unvaccinated-cases-were-hospitalised-significantly-more-than-vaccinated-cases.html

its interesting how it doesn't quite gel with the R650R prophecies....... maybe the medical and scientific communities know more than a min wage truck driver.

Kickaha

1st March 2022, 17:03

its interesting how it doesn't quite gel with the R650R prophecies....... maybe the medical and scientific communities know more than a min wage truck driver.

Just an idea, get over your fascination with the guys employment and stop being a cunt about it, you've bleated on about it long enough and it's getting fucking tedious

husaberg

1st March 2022, 17:25

Just an idea, get over your fascination with the guys employment and stop being a cunt about it, you've bleated on about it long enough and it's getting fucking tedious
It's an idea but not one i will be running with. I am not demeaning the profession. My dad drove a truck for years.
I'm simply pointing out when he infers he knows more than doctors or scientists, he is not actually qualified to suggest for a second he does.
Maybe you might want to find a post of his where he's not being a troll or posting utter garbage.
but granted, i am a cunt. But so are you.

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 19:11

It's an idea but not one i will be running with. I am not demeaning the profession. My dad drove a truck for years.
I'm simply pointing out when he infers he knows more than doctors or scientists, he is not actually qualified to infer he does.
Maybe you might want to find a post of his where he's not being a troll or posting utter garbage.
but granted, i am a cunt. But so are you

Yeah, but the thing is, Experts have been wrong before. Catastrophically wrong. In the face of 'Common sense' and 'Conventional Wisdom'.

Sometimes the Scientists and Doctors do get it wrong.

Case in point - the Predictive models for the number of COVID cases have been out in the best case scenario by a factor of 2.

And a regular person look at the predicted results and the actual results saying 'Maybe you don't know as much as you claim to do' is more than justified.

pete376403

1st March 2022, 19:14

I didn’t think you were capable of being a terrorist sympathiser... but you just called the alleged 911 hijackers courageous....

FWIW I was definitely referrring to Saudi military’s shortcomings and as a follow on the incompetence off the hijackers....

I am not a terrorist sympathiser. But courage is not something limited to only the people on "our" side. Kamikaze pilots were courageous. Maori armed only with spears and clubs, facing the British soldiers were courageous. The British soldiers facing the Maori were equally courageous.

On the other hand the Christchurch terrorist was not courageous in any way, he did not expose himself to any risk.

Also, why do you refer to the hijackers as alleged? Are you doubtful as to whether they really did it?

F5 Dave

1st March 2022, 19:50

He's doubtful of the moon landings and not entirely convinced the earth isn't flat. He's just asking the questions.

Beekeeper

1st March 2022, 21:41

paint me pink chuck me in naughty corner, pop out for a while and nek minit we have a zillion pages of pointless drivel. I bet Katman still flinging turds at the old bill down in Wellington.

TheDemonLord

2nd March 2022, 06:53

paint me pink chuck me in naughty corner, pop out for a while and nek minit we have a zillion pages of pointless drivel. I bet Katman still flinging turds at the old bill down in Wellington.

Katman got yeeted from the site some time ago.

sugilite

2nd March 2022, 08:49

What? Pollies throwing themselves into the limelight to take credit that is not due, but nowhere to be seen when it is bad news and incompetence is revealed? - surely not!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127921253/covid19-ashley-bloomfield-fronts-over-failure-no-minister-to-be-seen

F5 Dave

2nd March 2022, 18:27

In my job my performance is largely based on the actions of other companies which is troublesome at best.

I'm just glad it's not based on performance of government department workers. Cause, you know?

F5 Dave

5th March 2022, 16:44

Well another 5 dead.

So are you happy now? I'm talking to the Cunts who says it is mild or will argue that the victims didn't have a right to live because some of them may have been old or sick or unlucky or too far from medical help.

You go tell that to their families. And the thousands of others who would already be dead if we listened to the continuous disinformation prevalent at the start of this thread and political pressure meant we followed Britain's or the USs lead.

Oh but I was only 'asking questions '. No you weren't. You fuking weren't.

Kickaha

5th March 2022, 19:23

mulletman

5th March 2022, 20:48

But did they die "with covid" or "from covid" apparently there's some bullshit distinction we're meant to make so it appears less serious

Stuff reports died with and were in hosp already with other issues - bullshit ?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300530414/covid19-five-deaths-22527-new-cases-in-the-community-outbreak

TheDemonLord

5th March 2022, 20:49

But did they die "with covid" or "from covid" apparently there's some bullshit distinction we're meant to make so it appears less serious

https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/03/04/nz-records-five-more-deaths-of-people-with-covid-19/

The person was in hospital for an unrelated condition but had tested positive for the virus.

A patient also passed away at Waikato Hospital on Thursday. The person died of an unrelated medical condition and had tested positive for the virus.

Finally, a person in Dunedin who died of an unrelated medical condition on Thursday while receiving palliative care had tested positive for the virus.

Yes, I'll take "Things TDL was right about for $1,000"

So that would be "With Covid" and clearly there's a very real distinction...

FJRider

5th March 2022, 21:02

... So that would be "With Covid" and clearly there's a very real distinction...

The "Distinction" is the in the answer of one simple question ...

Would the individual have died sooner the time frame (as in ... sooner than the "Underlying conditions" they already had ... would normally require) if they did not have Covid .. ???

IF they DID die sooner ... then covid killed them.

TheDemonLord

5th March 2022, 21:12

The "Distinction" is the in the answer of one simple question ...

Would the individual have died sooner the time frame (as in ... sooner than the "Underlying conditions" they already had ... would normally require) if they did not have Covid .. ???

I mean, if you've already gone to the hospital for the condition that is killing you...

IF they DID die sooner ... then covid killed them.

So, if you are 90 and get fataly Stabbed, and being old caused you to die sooner, did old age kill you? Or did the stab wound kill you?

Answers to a Defence lawyer, please.

husaberg

5th March 2022, 21:13

You know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April.
…when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.
It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.
I said, ‘Calm. You have to be calm.’ It’ll go away.
We’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.
You know, we need a little a separation until such time as this goes away. It’s going to go away. It’s going to go away.
Stay calm. It will go away. You know it — you know it is going away, and it will go away. And we’re going to have a great victory.
It’s going to go away, hopefully at the end of the month. And, if not, hopefully it will be soon after that
It is going to go away. It is going away.
It did go — it will go away.
But a lot of movement and a lot of progress has been made in a vaccine. But I think what happens is it’s going to go away. This is going to go away.

And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
"The disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. It gets in the lungs"

F5 Dave

5th March 2022, 21:27

TheDemonLord

6th March 2022, 13:07

And so people dont have the right to live because they may, or may not have other issues?

Well how about Fuck You!

Fuck you hard you Evil Wankers.

Y'know... arguing with yourself is a sign of Mental Illness....

No one has said anything about a 'Right to live'.

There are 2 issues here:

The first is reporting of '5 COVID Deaths' when in reality it's more like 2 (and given the willful deceitfulness of the reporting, I'm skeptical to even include those). People who have died, and I quote, 'died of an unrelated medical condition' - why are they being included? We know why - to bump up the Numbers.

The second issue is one of reality: People Die. People die because they made bad choices, People die because the wheel of fortune stopped spinning on the segment that said 'Well, Fuck you'. And here's the kicker - we ride motorcycles, we spin that wheel on the regular - and some of us have gotten off with scars and a story to tell, others not so lucky.

No one is advocating that we don't try and treat these people - So this whole strawman of 'They don't have a right to live' can stop right there.

The fact is that when someone is already in palliative care or already in hospital for an unrelated illness (the same illness that killed them), it's safe to say that they are past the point of no return, they aren't going to get better.

FJRider

6th March 2022, 15:36

I mean, if you've already gone to the hospital for the condition that is killing you...

Where was it said in ANY of the reports that the patients reported to have covid (and died) ... were going to die ANYWAY.

The actual "Underlying medical conditions" (usually not actually mentioned) ... like emphysema which affects breathing ... to the various heart conditions ... (and many other conditions besides) may or may not ... be actually killing the sufferer.

So, if you are 90 and get fataly Stabbed, and being old caused you to die sooner, did old age kill you? Or did the stab wound kill you?

I spoke to my lawyer on that ... the person that stabbed the 90 year old would be charged with murder. Your own words (caused the 90 year old to die sooner) confirms the death WAS due to the stab wound.

Answers to a Defence lawyer, please.

AS above. If you don't believe me ... go stab a 90 year old.

Let me know how you got on. After you get out of jail.

F5 Dave

6th March 2022, 16:29

Jesus fuck there you go. Excuses and bullshit from tdl no care and no responsibility for his actions of disinformation.

You are part of the problem.

TheDemonLord

6th March 2022, 20:28

Jesus fuck there you go. Excuses and bullshit from tdl no care and no responsibility for his actions of disinformation.

You are part of the problem.

What disinformation?

I've literally quoted Stuff (and you know how much I am loathe to use them as a source), who in turn are quoting the Info released from the Ministry of Health.

The simple fact is, that 2 out of the 5 people explicitly died of something that wasn't Covid 19, yet are being included. Including those 2 people as 'Covid Deaths', when the MoH themselves said they died of an unrelated illness is a flagrant abuse of Stats.

The 3rd was in hospital already for an unrelated Illness - the exact wording was 'Tested positive for Covid' - not died from Covid. Given that they've included people who they shouldn't have already, I'm disinclined to be charitable and say that this 3rd case died from whatever they went into hospital for, not Covid.

Now, I'm sorry if repeating what the Ministry of Health has said is, in your world, 'Disinformation' - Take it up with your Local MP or the Minister for Health.

TheDemonLord

6th March 2022, 20:30

Where was it said in ANY of the reports that the patients reported to have covid (and died) ... were going to die ANYWAY.

That's kinda what Palliative Care means...

'Palliative care' is care for a person of any age who has a life-limiting illness.

And the other one outright stated they died of an unrelated illness - I mean sure, kinda got 20/20 hindsight on that one but...

The actual "Underlying medical conditions" (usually not actually mentioned) ... like emphysema which affects breathing ... to the various heart conditions ... (and many other conditions besides) may or may not ... be actually killing the sufferer.

The words used were 'Unrelated Medical Condition'.

Were it something like Asthma or Emphysema (or anything else that could be a co-morbidity), one might conjecture that it wouldn't be referred to as 'Unrelated'.

I spoke to my lawyer on that ... the person that stabbed the 90 year old would be charged with murder. Your own words (caused the 90 year old to die sooner) confirms the death WAS due to the stab wound.

Cool, so it's Died with Covid, not from Covid. Glad we cleared that up.

Just like it's died from a Stabwound and not with a stabwound ;)

mashman

7th March 2022, 12:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNc9PqIZ31M

On noes Bill Gates, that's misinformation, vaccines that protect were here last year... oh, and sorry that my immune system beat your drugs in the real world :killingme...

And you say the did testing, right?

pritch

7th March 2022, 17:17

- why are they being included? We know why - to bump up the Numbers.

There's been a lot of stupid stuff said and written about COVID but that's a strong contender.

Meanwhile back in reality, I think we've lost control of recording numbers in this country, and it doesn't help when the idiot protestors from Wellington attribute their obvious COVID symptoms to imaginary action by the police.

husaberg

7th March 2022, 17:31

There's been a lot of stupid stuff said and written about COVID but that's a strong contender.

Meanwhile back in reality, I think we've lost control of recording numbers in this country, and it doesn't help when the idiot protestors from Wellington attribute their obvious COVID symptoms to imaginary action by the police.

So am i correct in assuming he thinks NZ should abandon the way the international community does the numbers to suit A pom IT help desk dude with no medical training who likes to believe in conspiracy theories, As he cant comprehend nor understand they are removed from the numbers after the official cause of death is actually determined? or does he just like t ignore that as it doesnt suit him.
this information has been posted on this site and has been readily available for 3 months. It show's how flimsy his arguments are when he has to keep pushing the same misinformation,. this is one of the reasons he is so ignored on this site.
it was the first thing that came up on google.

Further information on deaths associated with COVID-19
News article
30 November 2021
The Ministry of Health is releasing further information on deaths associated with COVID-19.

COVID-19 deaths includes all cases that died who were classified as an active case of COVID-19 at the time of death. In some of these cases, the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to COVID-19.

The Ministry’s clinical criteria for reporting a COVID-19 death will continue to be guided by the World Health Organization’s definition for deaths due to COVID-19.

Deaths being investigated by the Coroner will remain under investigation until the Coroner’s finding has been determined. The Ministry will report this information daily on its website. This reflects that it can take some time for the Coroner to determine their findings, as well as formal notification processes carried out by the DHB.

As of 9am 25 November, 41 individuals have died who having COVID-19, and 30 of these deaths are classified as due to COVID-19, one death was not due to COVID-19, and the cause of death of the remaining ten has not been finalised. This data will be updated as privacy provisions allow to ensure personal information, is not personally identifiable.
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/news-items/further-information-deaths-associated-covid-19

TheDemonLord

7th March 2022, 19:59

There's been a lot of stupid stuff said and written about COVID but that's a strong contender.

Okay Pritch - riddle me this:

The Ministry of Health says that someone died of an Unrelated Illness (exact quote for 2 of the 5 cases).

Why are they being included in the Covid stats?

Now, in reference to Husabergs giant Spiel:

COVID-19 deaths includes all cases that died who were classified as an active case of COVID-19 at the time of death. In some of these cases, the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to COVID-19.

Husa may screech 'but we are following process!' - that is a deceptive means of doing it especially in instances where the cause of Death is explicitly known.

Let's be charitable - I'd be fine with including cases where COVID may have been a factor - like someone with Asthma - was it Covid or an Asthma attack that finally sent them on their way - absolutely fine with those being included.

I'd also be fine with maintaining a separate stat for cases which are pending a Coroners report and have that be the primary metric used.

Whereas when you are including people who (again as per the MoH) died of something unrelated - that's Deceptive.

The methodology for reporting ensures that a higher initial figure is produced (one that is alarmist and therefore much more conducive to eliciting the desired response) then it is walked back (which no one ever cares about).

It's like the old Newspaper trick of printing a salacious story on the Front Page, being threatened to be sued, then printing a retraction in the Editors notes at the back of the Paper. People remember the headline, never the retraction.

Meanwhile back in reality, I think we've lost control of recording numbers in this country, and it doesn't help when the idiot protestors from Wellington attribute their obvious COVID symptoms to imaginary action by the police.

Oh no! We've lost control of recording the number of Sniffles.

Oh dear.

Best we all carry on with our lives then.

TheDemonLord

7th March 2022, 20:16

So am i correct in assuming he thinks NZ should abandon the way the international community does the numbers to suit A pom IT help desk dude with no medical training who likes to believe in conspiracy theories, As he cant comprehend nor understand they are removed from the numbers after the official cause of death is actually determined? or does he just like t ignore that as it doesnt suit him.
this information has been posted on this site and has been readily available for 3 months. It show's how flimsy his arguments are when he has to keep pushing the same misinformation,. this is one of the reasons he is so ignored on this site.
it was the first thing that came up on google.

If I produced a report to Senior Management based with a big number of how much Profit we made, then quietly changed it after the fact to reflect the actual number - at best I'd be asked to look for another job.

At worst I could be hit with fraud charges for cooking the books.

I may not have 'Medical training' but I've got a number of years of statistical analysis experience, including datasets that millions upon millions of row (so on par with what the Govt is dealing with) - experience which immediately sees that the 'International community standard' is designed in such a way that will have a number of False-Positives, that will be walked back.

In the case of the NZ dataset that was released - that's a false positive rate (by their own admission) of 60%.

Also, given other factors - such as:
- 5 deaths (not 50,000 where you might forgive the DHBs and MoH expediting the process due to the massive volume)
- That they have stated they died of unrelated issues.

It's improper to include them in the stats when the sample size is small and the cause of death is known.

pritch

7th March 2022, 20:34

Oh no! We've lost control of recording the number of Sniffles.

Again for the slow ones, many of the protestors are unvaccinated and may have something more serious than sniffles.

If you were actually interested in motorcycles you might have noticed tears in Doha when a team run by the widow of the former principal, who died of COVID, won the race. Some sniffles are serious.

husaberg

7th March 2022, 20:48

Again for the slow ones, many of the protestors are unvaccinated and may have something more serious than sniffles.

If you were actually interested in motorcycles you might have noticed tears in Doha when a team run by the widow of the former principal, who died of COVID, won the race. Some sniffles are serious.

February 26: TRUMP

"This is a flu. This is like a flu," the president said in a briefing. "It's a little like a regular flu that we have flu shots for. And we'll essentially have a flu shot for this in a fairly quick manner."

February 26: TRUMP

"The flu, in our country, kills from 25,000 people to 69,000 people a year," Trump said during a Coronavirus Task Force briefing." And, so far, if you look at what we have with the 15 people and their recovery, one is — one is pretty sick but hopefully will recover, but the others are in great shape. But think of that: 25,000 to 69,000." Trump then added, "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done.”

March 9: TRUMP

"So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year," the president tweeted shortly before 11 am. "Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!"

March 24:TRUMP

"We lose thousands and thousands of people a year to the flu. We don't turn the country off," Trump said from the Rose Garden. "And actually, this year we're having a bad flu season. But we lose thousands of people a year to the flu. We never turn the country off. We lose much more than that to automobile accidents… I would love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by Easter."

March 31:TRUMP

By the last day in March, the president had changed his tune. "A lot of people have said, 'Ride it out. Don't do anything, just ride it out and think of it as the flu.' But it's not the flu. It's vicious," Trump declared at a White House Coronavirus Task Force Briefing. "This is not the flu," added Trump, definitively.

Note only 8% of people get the flu each year.

TheDemonLord

7th March 2022, 23:00

Again for the slow ones, many of the protestors are unvaccinated and may have something more serious than sniffles.

That 'May' is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting.

But here's the thing: Their Bodies, Their choice. I don't want them to die, but at the same time if they engage in risky behaviour and die from it, my sympathy is somewhat tempered.

Just like if someone wants to pull a Dank Wheelie on a 1000cc Crotch Rocket with no helmet, no leathers and the Kiwi Safety Sandal at 200 kph - if they pull it off - good for them, if they go splat...

If you were actually interested in motorcycles you might have noticed tears in Doha when a team run by the widow of the former principal, who died of COVID, won the race. Some sniffles are serious.

Sure, see the point I made about dearly loved relatives of mine dying from the Flu.

Sniffles can be deadly to the Old, the Immuno-compromised, the Morbidly Obese, Smokers, Alcoholics etc. etc. Yet, miraculously, each year when Sniffle season comes - we get on with it knowing that some people will die as an inevitability either of their own or others freedom.

Same with the Road toll.
Same with DIY accidents.
Same with Swimming.

Each person has the capacity to decide how much Risk they want to take: Don't want to lop your leg off with a Chainsaw? Hire an Arborist.

Worried about dieing during Sniffle Season because you've got a history of Lung/breathing conditions? Take extra precautions.

FJRider

8th March 2022, 09:12

That's kinda what Palliative Care means...

So ... what is the life expectancy with someone on "Palliative Care" .. ??

The words used were 'Unrelated Medical Condition'.

Words always used ... or just this one case .. ?? And most medical ailments ARE unrelated to covid. Whats your point on that .. ??

As per the usual clear and concise journalism in NZ ... the actual cause of death is usually still made unclear.

Intentionally probably. In the privacy concerns of the family concerned.

Most of reported deaths (reported as having covid) ... the patients are reported as having had underlying medical conditions.

All deaths as such ... are reported as in the stats as being covid deaths ... it's as simple as that.

You're grasping at straws again ... as per usual ... :killingme

Were it something like Asthma or Emphysema (or anything else that could be a co-morbidity), one might conjecture that it wouldn't be referred to as 'Unrelated'.

"Could be" ... ?? more straws being grasped at ... :killingme

Cool, so it's Died with Covid, not from Covid. Glad we cleared that up.

IT'S died with covid ... VERY caring of you. If you died of VD ... that's probably how YOUR death would be reported. As an "IT" .. :killingme

You'll note I did say ...

(caused the 90 year old to die sooner) confirms the death WAS due to the stab wound.

Comprehension just isn't your strong point ... :killingme

Just like it's died from a Stabwound and not with a stabwound ;)

A murder charge is serious. Dying from a stab wound ... received from another person ... is murder.

Your very words ... suggests you believed differently. I doubt even a GOOD Defense lawyer would be able to win that one.

So, if you are 90 and get fataly Stabbed, and being old caused you to die sooner, did old age kill you? Or did the stab wound kill you?

Answers to a Defence lawyer, please.

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 10:00

So ... what is the life expectancy with someone on "Palliative Care" .. ??

That's not the point, the point is, they aren't going to get better and it's managing their condition until they die.

Words always used ... or just this one case .. ?? And most medical ailments ARE unrelated to covid. Whats your point on that .. ??

As per the usual clear and concise journalism in NZ ... the actual cause of death is usually still made unclear.

Intentionally probably. In the privacy concerns of the family concerned.

Most of reported deaths (reported as having covid) ... the patients are reported as having had underlying medical conditions.

All deaths as such ... are reported as in the stats as being covid deaths ... it's as simple as that.

Two separate issues:

Died from Covid with underlying Medical conditions vs Died with covid due to unrelated Illness.

One I'm more than happy to be included in the stats, the other when they have stated that the cause of death was unrelated to Covid is not acceptable.

"Could be" ... ?? more straws being grasped at ... :killingme

I mean... That is how the English Language works...

"He died of injuries related to a Motorcycle crash"
vs
"He died of a Heart attack, which was unrelated to a broken toe he had"

IT'S died with covid ... VERY caring of you. If you died of VD ... that's probably how YOUR death would be reported. As an "IT" .. :killingme

So?

When I snuff it (hopefully many years in the future) I'll only exist as my online personae, in the memories of the people that new me and as an 'it' on various Government Databases.

Comprehension just isn't your strong point ... :killingme

A murder charge is serious. Dying from a stab wound ... received from another person ... is murder.

Your very words ... suggests you believed differently. I doubt even a GOOD Defense lawyer would be able to win that one.

I know... you're proving my point...

If someone is already dying (such as from a Stab Wound or an illness that put them into Palliative care) - then other factors which might make miniscule differences aren't relevant. a fit 20 year old might take longer to bleed out than a 90 year old, but you still wouldn't say that old age was a factor in their death because it made them die quicker. Nor if someone was a lifelong Smoker would you say that because of that choice, Smoking killed them instead of the Stabwound.

Just like if someone is in Palliative care already dying from something else, you wouldn't say that Covid killed them.

FJRider

8th March 2022, 13:38

That's not the point, the point is, they aren't going to get better and it's managing their condition until they die.

It IS the point if they are at risk of catching covid. "Palliative care" ... is care for a person (of any age) who has a life-limiting illness. Palliative care involves supporting and helping the person to live as comfortably and fully as possible (The official description of Palliative care). The usual effect of contracting covid is to cause death sooner. Thus ... covid killed them sooner than they would have without a covid intervention.

Thusly ... died of covid.

Two separate issues:

Died from Covid with underlying Medical conditions vs Died with covid due to unrelated Illness.

As above ... and is my original point ... they would live longer if they didn't catch Covid. The seriousness of those underlying conditions may vary. (I see you didn't try to use the term Unrelated) :lol:

Perhaps on occasion ... some of those related to family members on palliative care ... may indeed not mind that much if death does come sooner than expected. Especially if some degree of pain ... or the lack of awareness of their surroundings IS evident with the patient. And especially if some degree of their longevity is expected to be continued with their condition.

Thus ... IF covid IS the cause of an earlier death. Then ... death was because of covid ... just as surely as (you agree) a stab wound could be.

One I'm more than happy to be included in the stats

In the covid death stats ... good to hear ... :killingme

the other when they have stated that the cause of death was unrelated to Covid is not acceptable.

As again ... few medical conditions are "Related" to covid.

I meant ... That is how the NZ bureaucracy works ... all the causes of what effected the death are listed ... :doh:

Are you aware of what/all the details they put on those death certificates ... even for those "Unrelated to covid" deaths ... ?? YEP ... if they HAD covid ... it's mentioned.

Perhaps ... deaths "Unrelated to covid" means they didn't have covid ... but if they're mentioned in the covid death stat's ... they did have it. Or ... just simply ... covid made no change to their expected/estimated life span.

That's how the NZ bureaucracy works ... ALL the possible causes of death are listed ... :doh:

"He died of injuries related to a Motorcycle crash"
vs
"He died of a Heart attack, which was unrelated to a broken toe he had"

Now you're just being stupid. Few die of a broken toe received in a motorcycle crash ... with or without covid. I can't recall any ... Can YOU ... ??

Catching covid is obviously not as as serious (with or without a broken toe due to a motorcycle accident) than a person with a heart condition ... AND covid.

What actual point were you trying to make there .... :scratch:

So?

When I snuff it (hopefully many years in the future)

More than a few will be hoping for sooner. But thats' just my opinion.

I know... you're proving my point...

Nope ... I was at the doctor's today for the annual checkup. I asked what would be entered on a death certificate ... if death was hastened (not always the case) with/by covid. The reply was ... "Almost certainly Covid would be listed as a cause of death."

If someone is already dying (such as from a Stab Wound or an illness that put them into Palliative care) - then other factors which might make miniscule differences aren't relevant.

Now you claim stab wounds cause palliative care with some patients ... and catch covid too I assume ... this being a covid (related) thread ... :killingme

a fit 20 year old might take longer to bleed out than a 90 year old, but you still wouldn't say that old age was a factor in their death because it made them die quicker. Nor if someone was a lifelong Smoker would you say that because of that choice, Smoking killed them instead of the Stabwound.

Now I see you've reversed ALL your claims ... :killingme

But ... a fit 20 year old (not on palliative care I assume) would ... and will MOST LIKELY ... SURVIVE A COVID INFECTION.

And ALL smokers WILL die ... Eventually. Many often wishing for death sooner than it actually happens. And more die each year from smoking related ailments ... than ALL listed New Zealand Covid deaths.

Death is a certainty. Nobody escapes THAT simple fact. How soon you die (and how you die) ... can and HAS been an individuals choice since the beginning of time.

Government policy is simply recording the deaths of those with covid as covid related deaths. They sometimes state the cause of death was unrelated to covid. But ... they till put them in the covid death stats though.

Bugger eh ... :killingme

Just like if someone is in Palliative care already dying from something else, you wouldn't say that Covid killed them.

As I have already stated (multiple times) what hastens the death is usually listed as ... or added to the list of other ailments that person had as cause (or possible cause) of death. Sometimes actual cause is determined by an autopsy.

With Covid being the topic of the year ... a covid (related) death is usually listed as such.

Such is Government policy. If you do not like that policy ... Bugger ... eh ..!!!

Just be sure to vote in the next election. Have YOUR say.

I personally ... would bet on a Labour landslide re-election.

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 13:53

It IS the point if they are at risk of catching covid. "Palliative care" ... is care for a person (of any age) who has a life-limiting illness. Palliative care involves supporting and helping the person to live as comfortably and fully as possible (The official description of Palliative care). The usual effect of contracting covid is to cause death sooner. Thus ... covid killed them sooner than they would have without a covid intervention.

Thusly ... died of covid.

My entire reply to your argument is this:

"Therefore your Honor, the deceased did not die of the alleged stab wound from my Client, they did in fact die of Old age - as per FJRider - and as such, no man can be found guilty of Murder for the crime of Old Age."

/Sarcasm.

That is essentially what you are arguing and it's just as absurd as the way the death stats are reported, and everyone knows it.

neels

8th March 2022, 14:35

FJRider

8th March 2022, 15:05

My entire reply to your argument is this:

"Therefore your Honor, the deceased did not die of the alleged stab wound from my Client, they did in fact die of Old age - as per FJRider - and as such, no man can be found guilty of Murder for the crime of Old Age."

/Sarcasm.

That is essentially what you are arguing and it's just as absurd as the way the death stats are reported, and everyone knows it.

And my entire reply is ...

Please explain this reply ... especially in the part you quoted of my comment ... NO mention of a stab was made.

Note my post was ...

It IS the point if they are at risk of catching covid. "Palliative care" ... is care for a person (of any age) who has a life-limiting illness. Palliative care involves supporting and helping the person to live as comfortably and fully as possible (The official description of Palliative care). The usual effect of contracting covid is to cause death sooner. Thus ... covid killed them sooner than they would have without a covid intervention.

Where is the stab wound mentioned ... more straws being grasped at perhaps ... :killingme

Desperation is quoting one post ... and replying in the context of a reply to another post ... or part of a post.

You must try harder. You're just making yourself look sillier ... :killingme

Sarcasm no ... just stupidity.

AND entirely out of context ... and out of reality ... :pinch:

As per normal ... :facepalm:

Have a nice day ... :drinkup:

I've asked it before ... is English your second language .. ?? :scratch:

Just asking ... again ... :innocent:

husaberg

8th March 2022, 16:09

You are making an equally absurd black/white argument, saying it can either be the sole cause, or can't be any part of the cause. Health is not black/white, and everyone knows it.

There will be people who have existing health conditions, who would have continued to live for many years had they not contracted covid, but now they are dead. Which puts things in the middle ground, where covid was a contributing factor to their death, so their death is covid related.

Covid doesn't have to be the sole cause to be included as part of the cause.

maybe that is why they get qualified people to determine the cause of death and give them time to gather the information rather than just let right wing it help desk employees with their own agenda determine why, as they want to claim its part of some sinister plot against them...:whistle:

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 16:13

You are making an equally absurd black/white argument, saying it can either be the sole cause, or can't be any part of the cause. Health is not black/white, and everyone knows it.

There will be people who have existing health conditions, who would have continued to live for many years had they not contracted covid, but now they are dead. Which puts things in the middle ground, where covid was a contributing factor to their death, so their death is covid related.

Covid doesn't have to be the sole cause to be included as part of the cause.

Sure - And that's absolutely fine.

But that isn't dying of an Unrelated Illness, is it?
Nor is that being in Palliative Care for a Terminal illness and dying from that illness, is it?

Hence the point about Dying With Covid vs Dying from Covid. 3 out of 5 of the 'Covid Deaths' on the info released by the Ministry would fall well within the Dying With.

The whole point of my parody was to sure how absurd the way the stats are being measured.

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 16:15

maybe that is why they get qualified people to determine the cause of death and give them time to gather the information rather than just let right wing it help desk employees with their own agenda determine why, as they want to claim its part of some sinister plot against them...:whistle:

And when those qualified people say (and I quote):

'Died of an unrelated illness', that kinda goes against your narrative.

Cause that means they've already determined the cause of death, which is how they know what they died from and that it was unrelated.

Kinda how English works.

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 16:22

And my entire reply is ...

Please explain this reply ... especially in the part you quoted of my comment ... NO mention of a stab was made.

Note my post was ...

Where is the stab wound mentioned ... more straws being grasped at perhaps ... :killingme

Desperation is quoting one post ... and replying in the context of a reply to another post ... or part of a post.

You must try harder. You're just making yourself look sillier ... :killingme

Sarcasm no ... just stupidity.

AND entirely out of context ... and out of reality ... :pinch:

As per normal ... :facepalm:

Have a nice day ... :drinkup:

I've asked it before ... is English your second language .. ?? :scratch:

Just asking ... again ... :innocent:

The only reason I'm 'looking sillier' is because I'm parodying the way the Stats are reported. The way the stats are being done is silly, hence my reductio ad absurdum is equally silly.

Okay - let's try this again, using a real world example: What killed George Floyd? Was it Covid? or was it the Cop? And we know that Covid affects someone's ability to breathe and as you have so fastidiously pointed out and asserted that if Covid caused them to die sooner than they otherwise would have, Covid was the cause of Death.

Answers to the Defence lawyers please.

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 17:31

Don't want to let facts get in the way of a good story...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd

r/wooooooooosh

pete376403

8th March 2022, 17:34

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 17:56

To take the argument to extreme (and ridiculous lengths) We are all dying of a sexually transmitted condition. Some of us may go sooner than others, but we're all going to go in the end. Therefore there is no such thing as murder

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I would rep but it's been too soon apparently.

TheDemonLord

8th March 2022, 17:57

You've admitted you're not from this country. Take your views with you, pack your bags and F*** off.

Please. You're not welcome here.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Progressive 'Tolerance'.

husaberg

8th March 2022, 18:02

To take the argument to extreme (and ridiculous lengths) We are all dying of a sexually transmitted condition. Some of us may go sooner than others, but we're all going to go in the end. Therefore there is no such thing as murder

the people who "man" the IT help desk don't normally catch sexually transmitted diseases:whistle:

Stylo

8th March 2022, 18:15

Ladies and Gentlemen, Progressive 'Tolerance'.

George F.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd

neels

8th March 2022, 19:53

Sure - And that's absolutely fine.

But that isn't dying of an Unrelated Illness, is it?
Nor is that being in Palliative Care for a Terminal illness and dying from that illness, is it?

Hence the point about Dying With Covid vs Dying from Covid. 3 out of 5 of the 'Covid Deaths' on the info released by the Ministry would fall well within the Dying With.

The whole point of my parody was to sure how absurd the way the stats are being measured.
Now ya see, you've missed the point completely, and gone straight back to the either/or mentality, as either to be deliberately argumentative or through ignorance.

Were these people already in hospital, already in the throes of death, and subsequently contracted covid? Did they present at hospital with covid, and would they or would they not have been at hospital if they hadn't contracted covid?

For example: If someone had a long standing respiratory condition which they have successfully managed for a long time, then contracts covid which tips them over the edge and they end up in hospital and die, is their existing illness that kills them or covid. Is it possible that it's a combination of both?

To go back to the stabbing example: If someone is stabbed in the hand for cheating at cards, and is a hemophiliac and bleeds to death, what is the cause of death? Is being stabbed the only cause, even though most other people would survive the same injury? Or is their cause of death entirely hemophilia, and the stabbing is irrelevant as they would have bled to death at some point anyway? Or could it be an unlucky coincidence, and both are contributing factors?

FJRider

8th March 2022, 19:59

The only reason I'm 'looking sillier' is because I'm parodying the way the Stats are reported. The way the stats are being done is silly, hence my reductio ad absurdum is equally silly.

No ... you're looking sillier because you have the mental concentration (not to mention ... computer skills) of a mentally retarded 5 year old.

My apologies to all mentally retarded 5 year olds ... you're probably more intelligent than he is ... and have better computer skills ... :killingme

Okay - let's try this again,

TRY THIS ...

George Floyd didn't die of covid.

AND ... Changing the subject doesn't help your cause.

Police involved in that particular incident got more than a severe reprimand. Justice was carried out in a court of law.

A cop kneeling on your throat (I'd pay $$$ to see that) bears no resemblance (in principle or in practice) to a person that is (possibly) elderly ... and with enough medical issues ... For them to be seen as putting their lives in enough danger ... their own doctors have considered them to be dying.

Even WITHOUT/BEFORE being infected with Covid.

Even with their (guessed by doctors) time frame of life left for them prior to being infected with covid (by sloppy/incorrect health measures taken by "Health" staff in their place of residence) ... of maybe a year or so at best .. a covid infection might halve that. Maybe even LESS time than that (individual cases DO vary in length of remaining lifespans).

It's already known that hospital patients have died sooner than predicted due to a covid infection. YET ... YOU try to claim that it WASN'T covid that killed them. Dying a few months EARLIER was probably just a coincidence .. right .. ?? BUT ... If I am right ... ALL your bullshit claims and assertions would be THEN seen as TOTAL BULLSHIT.

Which they are.

Answers to the Defence lawyers please.

You wont need a lawyer ... you'll need a funeral director before you'll need a lawyer.

Known fact ... FAT USELESS FUCKERS usually die a horrible death.

Good luck with that in the future slim.

ps: The future always come sooner than you expect.

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 07:18

Now ya see, you've missed the point completely, and gone straight back to the either/or mentality, as either to be deliberately argumentative or through ignorance.

We'll see...

Were these people already in hospital, already in the throes of death, and subsequently contracted covid?

You tell me:

'In palliative care, died from unrelated illness'
'In hospital for unrelated illness, that they died from'

So yeah - already in hospital, already in the throes of death would be a pretty accurate summation based on what the MoH said

Did they present at hospital with covid, and would they or would they not have been at hospital if they hadn't contracted covid?

As per above.

For example: If someone had a long standing respiratory condition which they have successfully managed for a long time, then contracts covid which tips them over the edge and they end up in hospital and die, is their existing illness that kills them or covid. Is it possible that it's a combination of both?

Absolutely no issue with that, as I said if it was a related issue, then fine.

To go back to the stabbing example: If someone is stabbed in the hand for cheating at cards, and is a hemophiliac and bleeds to death, what is the cause of death? Is being stabbed the only cause, even though most other people would survive the same injury? Or is their cause of death entirely hemophilia, and the stabbing is irrelevant as they would have bled to death at some point anyway? Or could it be an unlucky coincidence, and both are contributing factors?

Sounds like you are saying (in that case) they died from a related and not unrelated issue ;)

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 07:19

George F.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd

You entirely missed the point...

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 07:31

TRY THIS ...

George Floyd didn't die of covid.

Okay - we'll keep that for later...

AND ... Changing the subject doesn't help your cause.

Oh, we'll see ;)

Police involved in that particular incident got more than a severe reprimand. Justice was carried out in a court of law.

A cop kneeling on your throat (I'd pay $$$ to see that) bears no resemblance (in principle or in practice) to a person that is (possibly) elderly ... and with enough medical issues ... For them to be seen as putting their lives in enough danger ... their own doctors have considered them to be dying.

Even WITHOUT/BEFORE being infected with Covid.

Okay, so definitively, if someone has a condition where they are struggling to breath (Asthma, Cop on their neck etc.) and they also have Covid, which aggravates their ability to breath - you've definitively said that they didn't die of Covid... Interesting.

Even with their (guessed by doctors) time frame of life left for them prior to being infected with covid (by sloppy/incorrect health measures taken by "Health" staff in their place of residence) ... of maybe a year or so at best .. a covid infection might halve that. Maybe even LESS time than that (individual cases DO vary in length of remaining lifespans).

It's already known that hospital patients have died sooner than predicted due to a covid infection. YET ... YOU try to claim that it WASN'T covid that killed them. Dying a few months EARLIER was probably just a coincidence .. right .. ?? BUT ... If I am right ... ALL your bullshit claims and assertions would be THEN seen as TOTAL BULLSHIT.

So which is it?

This is why I changed the subject, cause I knew you'd bite:

If a shortening of predicted Lifespan caused by COVID (as you have asserted above) is sufficient to class someone as dying OF COVID, then in the same breath (Pun fully intended) I get to say that George Floyd as per your reasoning died of Covid, not the cop on his neck.

If however, you wish to concede to me that someone with a pre-existing condition that was already killing them (such as being in Palliative care, or going to hospital for the illness that killed them, or a cop on their neck) died of that thing and NOT Covid, even if the presence of Covid MIGHT (and that's your word, not mine and it's doing some very heavy lifting) have decreased their expected lifespan by Months or Minutes.

Catch-22. And since you have so eloquently articulated both sides of the argument, now you have to pick one.

Either you accept that the way COVID stats are reported are accurate, and therefore as per your line of logic, it's entirely correct to say George Floyd died of COVID OR
You accept that the way the stats are reported (when the cause of death is known not to be COVID) is Bullshit - which was my point all along.

mashman

9th March 2022, 08:20

Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial - An investigation for the BMJ. (https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635)... might explain a few things with regards to testing v's outcomes in reality reality.

"The next morning, 25 September 2020, Jackson called the FDA to warn about unsound practices in Pfizer’s clinical trial at Ventavia. She then reported her concerns in an email to the agency. In the afternoon Ventavia fired Jackson—deemed “not a good fit,” according to her separation letter."

"In August this year, after the full approval of Pfizer’s vaccine, the FDA published a summary of its inspections of the company’s pivotal trial. Nine of the trial’s 153 sites were inspected. Ventavia’s sites were not listed among the nine, and no inspections of sites where adults were recruited took place in the eight months after the December 2020 emergency authorisation. The FDA’s inspection officer noted: “The data integrity and verification portion of the BIMO [bioresearch monitoring] inspections were limited because the study was ongoing, and the data required for verification and comparison were not yet available to the IND [investigational new drug].”"

FJRider

9th March 2022, 08:38

Okay - we'll keep that for later...

Oh, we'll see ;)

Off topic posts end up you know where ... feel free to try. Pink Is probably your favorite colour.

Okay, so definitively, if someone has a condition where they are struggling to breath (Asthma, Cop on their neck etc.) and they also have Covid, which aggravates their ability to breath - you've definitively said that they didn't die of Covid... Interesting.

You have memory issues too ... What I DID SAY ... was that if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death. Without covid ... they would have lived longer.

... then in the same breath (Pun fully intended) I get to say that George Floyd as per your reasoning died of Covid, not the cop on his neck.

George Floyd didn't have covid. That you did agree with as above.

However way you chose to word it ... simply put ... FLOYD DIDN'T HAVE COVID. Why argue he could or did .. ??

If however, you wish to concede to me that someone with a pre-existing condition that was already killing them (such as being in Palliative care, or going to hospital for the illness that killed them, or a cop on their neck) died of that thing and NOT Covid, even if the presence of Covid MIGHT (and that's your word, not mine and it's doing some very heavy lifting) have decreased their expected lifespan by Months or Minutes.

Floyd was killed by a cop. NOT COVID. NO comparison can be made in that regard. Are you trying to rewrite history now ... ??

For those on palliative care ... and contract covid ... and if covid does not change the expected death time frame their doctors ... covid wasn't the cause of their death. It WAS the cause if it shortens the expected death time frame. And I have stated all that previously.

Catch-22. And since you have so eloquently articulated both sides of the argument, now you have to pick one.

Catch 22 ... not in the least.

Either you accept that the way COVID stats are reported are accurate, and therefore as per your line of logic, it's entirely correct to say George Floyd died of COVID OR

Covid stats report that those that die WITH covid ... are covid victims. I do not agree with that policy ... but that is how they record the deaths as (Covid deaths).

You accept that the way the stats are reported (when the cause of death is known not to be COVID) is Bullshit - which was my point all along.

As above ... if the patient HAD covid and later died ... their deaths are then recorded as being covid deaths. That seems to be Government policy to do so.

What I believe doesn't ... (and will not) change Government policy.

Bugger eh .. !!

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 09:20

You have memory issues too ... What I DID SAY ... was that if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death. Without covid ... they would have lived longer.

Just like George ;)

George Floyd didn't have covid. That you did agree with as above.

However way you chose to word it ... simply put ... FLOYD DIDN'T HAVE COVID. Why argue he could or did .. ??

That's not what George said, or the Autopsy:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/06/04/869278494/medical-examiners-autopsy-reveals-george-floyd-had-positive-test-for-coronavirus

Floyd was killed by a cop. NOT COVID. NO comparison can be made in that regard. Are you trying to rewrite history now ... ??

But you just said: "if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death.".

If having Covid caused George to have, I dunno, trouble breathing - and he would have lived longer than without covid, then as per your line above - He died of Covid.

I'm not trying to re-write history, I'm ridiculing your argument - by taking it to it's logical extreme.

For those on palliative care ... and contract covid ... and if covid does not change the expected death time frame their doctors ... covid wasn't the cause of their death. It WAS the cause if it shortens the expected death time frame. And I have stated all that previously.

Expected Death Time?

"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grim Reaper express will be departing Platform 9 at 10:15. Will the Passengers scheduled for this service, please get ready to die"

Didn't realise that they had gotten so accurate...

Covid stats report that those that die WITH covid ... are covid victims. I do not agree with that policy ... but that is how they record the deaths as (Covid deaths).

And there we have it - why do you not agree with that Policy? Is it because you know (as do I) that it's not right.

Which was my argument all along.

Now for the big shocker - I see the point your making and I partially agree with it, that if Covid is/was shown to be a significant factor in their death, then okay - I can accept it as a Covid death. See my points about people with Asthma or other related conditions

However, if someone is already dying in Palliative care, whether or not Covid was the straw that broke the camels back, they were already dying - it wasn't the major factor. Just like George, it wasn't a major factor.

To include those deaths as Covid deaths is wrong, everyone knows it's wrong - and merely appealing to authority (or government policy in this case) doesn't change it's wrong-ness.

Getting you to admit that you don't agree with the Policy (because the Policy is stupid) was the point all along.

FJRider

9th March 2022, 12:52

Just like George ;)

My mistake. My memory issues ... ;)

So ... by my reasoning then ... he died by cop. NOT covid ... as the cop(s) made him die sooner than than he should have. Reasoning I have used and stated all along. If your opinion on that point differs ... feel free to post the quote where I said differently.

Funnily enough ... had it been in New Zealand (possibly in the USA too ... it could have been recorded as a covid death.

But as the cops were charged with murder ... probably not.

That's not what George said, or the Autopsy:

Apparently ... :innocent:

But you just said: "if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death.".

The good news is though ... I WAS RIGHT. The cop killed Floyd. Covid wasn't the cause of his death. The COP caused him to die sooner than he was expected too ... even WITH him having covid. And even YOU can't deny THAT.

I wonder if the cops were tested for covid .. ??

AS per my original (and continued) argument ... what causes you to die sooner than expected ... whatever medical conditions and/or viruses they may have.

If having Covid caused George to have, I dunno, trouble breathing - and he would have lived longer than without covid, then as per your line above - He died of Covid.

As per my claim your comprehension skills are lacking ... THAT very line PROVES me 100% correct. What kills them quicker (obviously NOT always covid) is the cause of death. In this case ... as I have always said ... Floyd died by cop(s).

I'm not trying to re-write history, I'm ridiculing your argument - by taking it to it's logical extreme.

I ALWAYS ridicule YOUR argument. It's expected. By me at least. Even if it's near the truth (sometimes you get lucky).

However you have actually PROVED my ORIGINAL point .. what causes a person (even YOU) to die sooner ... should be recorded as the actual cause of death. As the cops were charged with murder ... that his death was caused by cop ... that most likely would be how it was recorded. But in official lingo.

Expected Death Time?

"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grim Reaper express will be departing Platform 9 at 10:15. Will the Passengers scheduled for this service, please get ready to die"

Didn't realise that they had gotten so accurate...

Medical Doctors Guesstimation ... can be surprisingly accurate. Depending on the conditions the patient is suffering from.

And there we have it - why do you not agree with that Policy? Is it because you know (as do I) that it's not right.

Which was my argument all along.

If you recall my post earlier ... regarding the deciding factor in actual causes of death ... you might recall ... I stated what actually causes you to die SOONER is the cause of death. Be it from covid or from a Cop.

OFFICIAL POLICY differs from that. Dying with covid means being recorded as a covid death in the stats.

Anybody can gather a whole heap of numbers to (try to) prove a point. And depending on the point you want to prove ... what system of numbers you use.

Now for the big shocker - I see the point your making and I partially agree with it, that if Covid is/was shown to be a significant factor in their death, then okay - I can accept it as a Covid death. See my points about people with Asthma or other related conditions

My stance is ... if something (be it a cop/covid/ or a cutie with a knife fetish ... kills you sooner than is expected with your present medical condition ... that's what you should have on record as cause of death.

Too simple ... ??

However, if someone is already dying in Palliative care, whether or not Covid was the straw that broke the camels back, they were already dying - it wasn't the major factor. Just like George, it wasn't a major factor.

Aside from the fact that Floyd didn't die OF covid ... and covid wouldn't even feature on his death certificate. He may well have even survived a covid infection. I have seen no claims he WOULD have died from covid.

To include those deaths as Covid deaths is wrong, everyone knows it's wrong - and merely appealing to authority (or government policy in this case) doesn't change it's wrong-ness.

Getting you to admit that you don't agree with the Policy (because the Policy is stupid) was the point all along.

Aside from being official policy ... and if you read my posts regarding the bit about what kills you quicker ... you might see that I actually agree with that. I merely stated that Government policy was to record deaths with covid as being recorded as a covid death.

That you FAILED to grasp that single point ... lead me to believe that YOUR comprehension skills are lacking.

And time and time again ... you prove me right on THAT single point.

Nice one slim ... :woohoo:

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 13:17

My mistake. My memory issues ... ;)

So ... by my reasoning then ... he died by cop. NOT covid ... as the cop(s) made him die sooner than than he should have. Reasoning I have used and stated all along. If your opinion on that point differs ... feel free to post the quote where I said differently.

Funnily enough ... had it been in New Zealand (possibly in the USA too ... it could have been recorded as a covid death.

But as the cops were charged with murder ... probably not.

Okay - Define 'Sooner' - because you keep saying sooner, but then you make an argument in both directions. And this is what this contention revolves around.

The whole point of bringing George Floyd was to highlight a real world situation (so not a Hypothetical) where 'dying sooner due to Covid therefore died from Covid' could be said, but is patently stupid - in order to demonstrate how patently stupid it was to include 3 out of the 5 deaths (on the info provided).

This line:

What kills them quicker (obviously NOT always covid) is the cause of death

Is probably closest to what I'd agree with, however we have to put some context in:

If you have a condition that you are expected to die from in 6 months, you test positive from Covid and Died in 2 months - which killed you quicker? Covid or the Condition?

You might say 'well, the disease was expected to kill them in 6, but the disease killed them in 2 - so obviously they died from Covid', whereas I'd say if they are in their 40s, with a life expectancy of 81, and the Disease is killing them at 42 - which killed them sooner? The disease that shortened their expected life span by 4 months or 40 years?

And I said I can accept a degree of nuance- but I draw the line at terminal pre-existing conditions being included. If you have a history of Heart trouble and go into hospital for a Heart issue and die of said issue - I can accept that the presence of Covid in your body probably doesn't do you any favors - but that is dying with Covid, not from Covid.

Same with being in palliative care - at that point, it's fair to say that whatever caused you to be in that position has had MUCH more of an impact on your long-term health prospects than Covid has.

FJRider

9th March 2022, 15:58

Okay - Define 'Sooner' - because you keep saying sooner, but then you make an argument in both directions. And this is what this contention revolves around.

Definition of sooner: in or after a shorter time.

Definition of later: comparative of late (in or after a longer time).

I always prefer sooner rather than later ... but that's just me ... :yes:

Your question proves English IS your second language ... if you don't understand the meaning of the (English) word sooner.

The whole point of bringing George Floyd was to highlight a real world situation (so not a Hypothetical) where 'dying sooner due to Covid therefore died from Covid' could be said, My point exactly.

Newsflash ...

Floyd was killed by a cop. He died sooner than he otherwise would have. Even WITH him having covid. As I said previously ... he may well would have survived a covid infection.

The families that had a relative die from covid might disagree with your assertations ... if they died SOONER than they otherwise were expected to. With whatever other issues they may have had ... if they died sooner due to a covid infection ... then covid killed them. Even if the time period was a month or a week SOONER than was expected they would die ... covid shortened their life.

If you have a condition that you are expected to die from in 6 months, you test positive from Covid and Died in 2 months - which killed you quicker? Covid or the Condition?

I don't have ANY such condition. As per my last RAT test .. I'm still covid free (I guess the masks work <_< ).

You might say 'well, the disease was expected to kill them in 6, but the disease killed them in 2 - so obviously they died from Covid'

What disease did they have .. ??

And I said I can accept a degree of nuance- but I draw the line at terminal pre-existing conditions being included.

I know personally know more than a few that were supposed to die before adulthood. Instead they died of old age.

Personally ... I'd fight tooth and nail for a few weeks extra of life. Fat useless pricks probably wouldn't ... THEY wouldn't see the point of making ANY extra effort.

With being in palliative care ... at that point where you've become unaware of your surroundings ... it's fair to say that whatever caused you to be in that position ... probably will have MUCH more of an impact on your long-term health prospects than Covid would ever have.

But ... if it shortens your life ... :innocent:

FJRider

9th March 2022, 18:35

'In palliative care, died from unrelated illness'

So yeah - already in hospital, already in the throes of death would be a pretty accurate summation based on what the MoH said

For those that stupidly believe you know what you are talking about.

This is obviously Including YOU.

Palliative care is medical care for people with serious or terminal illnesses.

It is often confused with end of life care (obviously you ARE one that IS confused).

These are two different types of care ... but they have some similar qualities.

Those receiving palliative care does not always mean that they will not get better ... or that they WILL die.

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 19:52

For those that stupidly believe you know what you are talking about.

This is obviously Including YOU.

Palliative care is medical care for people with serious or terminal illnesses.

It is often confused with end of life care (obviously you ARE one that IS confused).

These are two different types of care ... but they have some similar qualities.

Those receiving palliative care does not always mean that they will not get better ... or that they WILL die.

Does not always - sure.

but...

When you are in palliative care for a condition, and then die of that condition - I think it's fairly safe to say... The condition was Terminal.

And for bonus points - Our Ministry of Health defines it as:

'Palliative care' is care for a person of any age who has a life-limiting illness.

Turns out I DID know what I was talking about, afterall...

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 20:01

Definition of sooner: in or after a shorter time.

Definition of later: comparative of late (in or after a longer time).

I always prefer sooner rather than later ... but that's just me ... :yes:

Your question proves English IS your second language ... if you don't understand the meaning of the (English) word sooner.

Okay - let's go with your definition, see how it goes:

Floyd was killed by a cop. He died sooner than he otherwise would have. Even WITH him having covid. As I said previously ... he may well would have survived a covid infection.

Right, but then you say....

if they died SOONER than they otherwise were expected to. With whatever other issues they may have had ... if they died sooner due to a covid infection ... then covid killed them.

Hmmmmmm...

"George Floyd died SOONER than he otherwise was expected to. With whatever other issues he may have had ... if he died sooner due to a covid infection ... then covid killed George Floyd."

And that is using your definition of Sooner. A perfect substitution, that is logically internally consistent and fits the real world facts - based on your own argument.

Therein lies the catch.

Even if the time period was a month or a week SOONER than was expected they would die ... covid shortened their life.

a Minute, a Month, a Week - it doesn't really matter, if they were already dying of something else - then that something else is to blame.

FJRider

9th March 2022, 20:06

Does not always - sure.

As I said ...

Those receiving palliative care does not always mean that they will not get better ... or that they WILL die.

Glad you agree.

FJRider

9th March 2022, 20:17

Okay - let's go with your definition, see how it goes

You will recall ... Floyd died SOONER than even HE expected ... due to a cop kneeling on his throat.

Covid played NO part in his death.

Which part of that do you not understand ... ???

Cause of his death was a cop kneeling on his throat.

FJRider

9th March 2022, 21:04

When you are in palliative care for a condition, and then die of that condition - I think it's fairly safe to say... The condition was Terminal.

And to ALL those healthy ... hearty ... and happy .... Ponder on this.

Life is Terminal. You won't get out of it alive.

You will die of something.

Possibly ... a lot earlier than you might have expected.

Have a great day ...

TheDemonLord

9th March 2022, 22:02

You will recall ... Floyd died SOONER than even HE expected ... due to a cop kneeling on his throat.

Or Covid, as per your line of assertion...

Covid played NO part in his death.

Struggling to breath has no relation to Covid? That's news...

Which part of that do you not understand ... ???

Cause of his death was a cop kneeling on his throat.

I understand that you are trying to have it both ways, and when I'm deliberately parodying it, you're getting flustered to the point where you reply multiple times.

Sooner - as you've used it, doesn't work. Because as above, I can substitute something I know to be false, using your wording and have it be internally consistent and true to the facts.

Therefore, saying if something made you die sooner, it was the cause of death isn't right.

Now, if we replace Sooner with Significant, then it's a lot closer to reality - because I can't say that Covid was significant in George Floyd's death, the cop on the neck was.
And if someone is in dying in palliative care (which, as per MoH is for 'Life Limiting illnesses' - that's Terminal Illnesses) and they die, in palliative care for that same condition, I get to say that Covid wasn't a significant factor and therefore calling it a 'Covid Death' (regardless of the appeal to authority) is incorrect.

FJRider

9th March 2022, 22:41

Or Covid, as per your line of assertion...

Please quote the post I claimed Floyd died from anything other than than a cop on his throat.

Actually ... I have mistakenly said he DIDN'T have covid. And you may recall correcting me on that.

Struggling to breath has no relation to Covid? That's news...

It IS hard to breath with a cop kneeling on your throat ...

Therefore, saying if something made you die sooner, it was the cause of death isn't right.

I think the cop definitely made Floyd die sooner than even the cop would have liked. Which is why murder charges were laid against them.

Now, if we replace Sooner with Significant, then it's a lot closer to reality -

With the content of your posts to date ... today's one's especially ... it's apparent you have no grasp whatsoever of reality. Thus ... hardly qualified to comment on what reality is.

And if someone is in dying in palliative care (which, as per MoH is for 'Life Limiting illnesses' - that's Terminal Illnesses) and they die, in palliative care for that same condition, I get to say that Covid wasn't a significant factor and therefore calling it a 'Covid Death' (regardless of the appeal to authority) is incorrect.

Each case of Palliative care will vary to some degree with other cases of palliative care. ANY person that was in Palliative care ... and died of (or with) covid ... unless YOU are personally aware of what patients actual health symptoms (and severity) were prior to ... and after contracting covid ... you are unqualified to comment as to how serious their medical condition was. Or decide if covid killed them (or not).

But (apparently) YOU know ... even without reading the death certificate.

Clairvoyant are you ... ??

Personally ... I think you're running out of straws to grasp ... so you try to use the same one.

It's not working .. :killingme

TheDemonLord

10th March 2022, 10:08

Please quote the post I claimed Floyd died from anything other than than a cop on his throat.

Actually ... I have mistakenly said he DIDN'T have covid. And you may recall correcting me on that.

It IS hard to breath with a cop kneeling on your throat ...

I think the cop definitely made Floyd die sooner than even the cop would have liked. Which is why murder charges were laid against them.

With the content of your posts to date ... today's one's especially ... it's apparent you have no grasp whatsoever of reality. Thus ... hardly qualified to comment on what reality is.

I've never said that you claimed George died of anything other than a Cop.

I've said that your reasoning as to what constitutes dying sooner, therefore dying of can be used to accurately say that George died of Covid. Something we both agree is patently not true.

Therefore your reasoning as to dying sooner must also be patently not true.

You walked it back a few posts ago saying that you disagreed with how the stats were collected, but then doubled down on your usage of 'Sooner'. I even gave you an out to acknowledge that whilst some factors may result in someone dying sooner, they are not a significant factor and therefore shouldn't be considered as 'dying of' - but you keep pressing this, so I keep parodying it.

Each case of Palliative care will vary to some degree with other cases of palliative care. ANY person that was in Palliative care ... and died of (or with) covid ... unless YOU are personally aware of what patients actual health symptoms (and severity) were prior to ... and after contracting covid ... you are unqualified to comment as to how serious their medical condition was. Or decide if covid killed them (or not).

There's a number of reasonable inferences we can make, based on the info that is known:

1: The person was in Palliative Care - which means in NZ, they had 'A Life Limiting Illness', AKA Terminal Illness - they are Dying.
2: The person died in Palliative Care from that Illness - which means we an infer that is was serious enough to, y'know, kill them (although without them dying, their existence in Palliative care given point one would also allow us to infer their condition was 'serious')
3: The person's illness (and therefore Death) was described as 'unrelated' - which means... not related to Covid.

At which point, even if the presence of Covid shortened their already shortened lifespan (which is something I'm happy to accept), it was not the major factor in their death. They were already dying, of an illness, that eventually killed them, that wasn't Covid.

And based on this - calling them 'A Covid Death' - even if it 'fits the process', is silly.

Just as silly as saying George died of Covid, not a cop.

That of the 5 'Covid Deaths', only 2 of them (based on the info released) could be actual Covid deaths is my issue.

But (apparently) YOU know ... even without reading the death certificate.
Clairvoyant are you ... ??
Personally ... I think you're running out of straws to grasp ... so you try to use the same one.
It's not working .. :killingme

I don't need to clutch at straws, they've already told us they died of their unrelated terminal illness...

Stylo

10th March 2022, 16:43

I've never said that you claimed George died of anything other than a Cop.

I've said that your reasoning as to what constitutes dying sooner, therefore dying of can be used to accurately say that George died of Covid. Something we both agree is patently not true.

Therefore your reasoning as to dying sooner must also be patently not true.

You walked it back a few posts ago saying that you disagreed with how the stats were collected, but then doubled down on your usage of 'Sooner'. I even gave you an out to acknowledge that whilst some factors may result in someone dying sooner, they are not a significant factor and therefore shouldn't be considered as 'dying of' - but you keep pressing this, so I keep parodying it.

There's a number of reasonable inferences we can make, based on the info that is known:

1: The person was in Palliative Care - which means in NZ, they had 'A Life Limiting Illness', AKA Terminal Illness - they are Dying.
2: The person died in Palliative Care from that Illness - which means we an infer that is was serious enough to, y'know, kill them (although without them dying, their existence in Palliative care given point one would also allow us to infer their condition was 'serious')
3: The person's illness (and therefore Death) was described as 'unrelated' - which means... not related to Covid.

At which point, even if the presence of Covid shortened their already shortened lifespan (which is something I'm happy to accept), it was not the major factor in their death. They were already dying, of an illness, that eventually killed them, that wasn't Covid.

And based on this - calling them 'A Covid Death' - even if it 'fits the process', is silly.

Just as silly as saying George died of Covid, not a cop.

That of the 5 'Covid Deaths', only 2 of them (based on the info released) could be actual Covid deaths is my issue.

I don't need to clutch at straws, they've already told us they died of their unrelated terminal illness...

Please tell me you're not involved in the medical profession .

If so, you need to be struck off the registar. It's not so much what you have to say when replying but surely you can reply in less words than you use. We can hear your indefensible argument in a paragraph. Or two.

Await your 26 line reply. It'll be as implausible as every one before that.

Stop digging. You're deep enough. What's the view like from down there ?

pete376403

10th March 2022, 17:18

TheDemonLord

10th March 2022, 19:26

Its all going to change anyway:
The number of deaths announced today was due to changes to the reporting of Covid-related deaths, Bloomfield said.

From today, there would be a dual reporting approach.

They will report different categories:

• Number of people who died within 28 days of positive Covid-19 test;
• Number of people whose official cause of death was determined as Covid;
• Number of people where Covid was contributing factor, but not the cause;
• People who died within 28 days of positive Covid test, but cause has yet to be determined.

The total number of Covid deaths to date is 91, Bloomfield said.

Well Well Well, would you look at that?

It seems I'm not the only one who has been pointing out that the way the Covid stats were collected were deceptive, and mysteriously after the most recently announced 'Covid Deaths', the Government has suddenly changed their reporting.

One might look at the timing (less than a week) and conjecture some form of Link...

So much for just being an IT professional, an Internet Troll, a Spreader of Misinformation and every other insult that was hurled my way.

I could Gloat. And oh how I am tempted to gloat as once again, I've been vindicated by subsequent Government Backtracking/Pivots.... Especially with all the venom and vitriol that was thrown... I could Gloat....

But, I won't.

FJRider

10th March 2022, 19:49

I've said that your reasoning as to what constitutes dying sooner, therefore dying of can be used to accurately say that George died of Covid. Something we both agree is patently not true.

Actually ... I said what kills you sooner is usually the cause of death. You're getting all bitter and twisted because you forgot that bit.

Hint ... stay off the drugs. They appear to have scrambled your brain.

And there are plenty of posts of mine ... stating exactly as above. You even argued the point.

Even if the presence of Covid shortened their already shortened lifespan (which is something I'm happy to accept), it was not the major factor in their death. They were already dying, of an illness, that eventually killed them, that wasn't Covid.

And based on this - calling them 'A Covid Death' - even if it 'fits the process', is silly.

Died an earlier death from covid ... a covid death.

Too simple ... even for you.

But we both know Government policy on the reporting of covid deaths. So ... I guess we're BOTH wrong. "Officially" ... :lol:

That of the 5 'Covid Deaths', only 2 of them (based on the info released) could be actual Covid deaths is my issue.

There were more than 5 covid deaths in nz.

I don't need to clutch at straws, they've already told us they died of their unrelated terminal illness...

You're dying of a terminal illness ... not covid I hope.

FJRider

10th March 2022, 19:53

... So much for just being an IT professional, an Internet Troll, a Spreader of Misinformation and every other insult that was hurled my way.

Panic not ... rest assured the insults WILL continue.

Regardless of topic or truth.

It's the KB way ... :drinkup:

TheDemonLord

10th March 2022, 20:05

Panic not ... rest assured the insults WILL continue.

Regardless of topic or truth.

It's the KB way ... :drinkup:

I wouldn't have it any other way. ;)

mashman

11th March 2022, 10:34

Grand Jury | Day 2 (https://odysee.com/@GrandJury:f/Grand-Jury-Day-2-online_1:f)... only 45 minutes in and it's funny hearing a former GCHQ officer (shit title given that which he relates) outline information that Akzle was talking about all those years ago as absolute Gospel. The first 40 minutes are an interesting watch if you can handle history from a GCHQ perspective...

pritch

11th March 2022, 20:52

Well Well Well, would you look at that?

It seems I'm not the only one who has been pointing out that the way the Covid stats were collected were deceptive, and mysteriously after the most recently announced 'Covid Deaths', the Government has suddenly changed their reporting.

One might look at the timing (less than a week) and conjecture some form of Link...

So much for just being an IT professional, an Internet Troll, a Spreader of Misinformation and every other insult that was hurled my way.

I could Gloat. And oh how I am tempted to gloat as once again, I've been vindicated by subsequent Government Backtracking/Pivots.... Especially with all the venom and vitriol that was thrown... I could Gloat....

But, I won't.

You said previously that they were trying to boost the numbers and that was when our national death toll was about sixty which was patently absurd. Obviously this new system makes the numbers higher than when you thought they were being boosted. You were due zero kudos then and zero now, you have nothing to gloat about.

TheDemonLord

12th March 2022, 07:11

You said previously that they were trying to boost the numbers and that was when our national death toll was about sixty which was patently absurd.

See, if the number of Deaths were significant, I might be charitable and say that a few statistical errors are to be expected.
If the number of false-positive deaths weren't a statistically significant number (3 out of 5)

And perhaps most egregiously - and this is where I give absolutely no charitable explanation and ascribe it directly to Malice:

The numbers and statements released were 5 lines that anyone with any form of analytical thinking could have seen, reviewed and corrected, knowing that what was being reported was wrong.

Everyone went along with it, despite the glaringly obvious - all saying that the Emperors' new Clothes were lovely. If it was say 100, I could perhaps forgive it being lost in the noise or overlooked, but it was 5.

Obviously this new system makes the numbers higher than when you thought they were being boosted.

Depends which Metric - Some of them will see an increase, the 4th metric is closest to what the old reporting system is/was and will likely remain unchanged. The first metric will likely see an increase, the third will see an increase - but the one that is most important - where Covid was determined as THE cause of Death, that will decrease (not by much at this stage as most of the Covid deaths have had a Coroner review and been retroactively correctly classified)

You were due zero kudos then and zero now, you have nothing to gloat about.

Right, Right....

I said that the way the Government stats are reported is misleading and wrong
Everyone says I'm wrong.
Government changes the way it's stats are reported, factoring in the very issues that I specifically raised, less than a week later
Pritch: "Nope, nothing to see here, nope, absolutely not. No No"
Denial isn't a river in Egypt ;)

FJRider

12th March 2022, 19:12

See, if the number of Deaths were significant, I might be charitable and say that a few statistical errors are to be expected.

WHAT has really CHANGED with the current system of "Recording" death numbers ... ??

The "NEW" system you seem happier about.

ie: The use of statistics. (The name/method YOU continue to refer to the Government reporting of Covid deaths as)

noun

The practice or science of collecting and analyzing numerical data in large quantities, especially for the purpose of inferring proportions in a whole from those in a representative sample.

If you continue to refer to the reported Covid death numbers as Statistics ... some error is expected.

BUT ... if it is only ACTUAL Covid deaths that are are being recorded ... then statistics (as such) play no part in the death count. DEATH from covid numbers should be known ... and recorded as such.

If they cannot attribute actual cause of death ... then nothing has changed much from the original "Cause of death" reporting (ie: Died with Covid).
Except (seemingly) now the reported cases as (confirmed) cause of death from Covid has been greatly reduced.

For example ...

- Number of people who died within 28 days of positive Covid-19 test ... Did they die with, or of Covid
- Number of people whose official cause of death was determined as Covid ... Confirmed death due to Covid
- Number of people where Covid was contributing factor, but not the cause ... Confirmed death not due to Covid
- People who died within 28 days of positive Covid test, but cause has yet to be determined ... Cause of death not confirmed

So ... are the Government reporting FACTS (actual death numbers of those due to Covid) or just using a Statistical system (fudging the numbers to hide (or reveal ??) actual death numbers that were due to Covid)

Is the "NEW" reporting system really any better than before .. ??

Or was the previous system (potentially) just scaremongering .. ??

TheDemonLord

13th March 2022, 07:40

Is the "NEW" reporting system really any better than before .. ??

Or was the previous system (potentially) just scaremongering .. ??

The differentiation between those that have died with a Positive test (old system) and those that definitively died from Covid and those that died where Covid was a contributing factor is a really good move.

I personally would like a 5th category (which you can kind of imply from the new dataset, but I'd like it explicitly recorded):

- Those that died within 28 days of a Positive Covid test, but cause of Death found that Covid was not a contributing factor (or not a significant contributing factor).

The previous system, if I give it some due credence is a quick and dirty way when you have a brand new pathogen that people are dying from and you need to get stats in short order. However it should be used with caution and be discarded as soon as better reporting info becomes available as you run the risk of creating a positive feedback loop:

Stats say more people are dying, therefore we need more testing > More testing leads to more positive results within 28 days of death, therefore more people are dying > Even More people are dying!! We need more testing! etc. etc.

Not to mention as you say the alarmist reporting (if it bleeds, it leads...)

FJRider

13th March 2022, 07:57

I personally would like a 5th category (which you can kind of imply from the new dataset, but I'd like it explicitly recorded):

- Those that died within 28 days of a Positive Covid test, but cause of Death found that Covid was not a contributing factor (or not a significant contributing factor).

I doubt that will happen. Especially if underlying medical conditions were involved.

If an autopsy is required to confirm cause of death ... the family may not consent to one being carried out.

R650R

13th March 2022, 11:29

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10606107/Did-flawed-tests-convince-Covid-worse-really-was.html

TheDemonLord

13th March 2022, 16:07

I doubt that will happen. Especially if underlying medical conditions were involved.

If an autopsy is required to confirm cause of death ... the family may not consent to one being carried out.

I agree it's unlikely, I was just talking more about from a Stats basis - it would be nice to have both side represented in raw numbers for comparison. We can kinda infer the numbers from the info given, I just like to have stats that go both ways, makes analysis nicer - especially if there is any error or uncertainty from either direction.

FJRider

13th March 2022, 19:07

I agree it's unlikely, I was just talking more about from a Stats basis - it would be nice to have both side represented in raw numbers for comparison. We can kinda infer the numbers from the info given, I just like to have stats that go both ways, makes analysis nicer - especially if there is any error or uncertainty from either direction.

Everybody knows you can't have it BOTH ways ... ;)

The key point of reference though ... is the "Within 28 days of a positive Covid test". Those that were already in Hospital for (usually non specified) underlying medical conditions ... possibly even expected to die ... that 28 days gives the medical teams a baseline to note any change in the (speed of) decline of the patients condition. No change in the decline ... if in fact if there is any decline ... might suggest the actual amount of affect Covid is making on the patient. If indeed ANY effect

Some may have not been admitted to Hospital until the positive test result was noted ... and were already unwell.

The family of the deceased may also prefer that their loved one's death ... is not recorded as a covid caused death. Thus if no autopsy has been performed and cause of death confirmed ... it is not (cannot be ??) recorded as such.

Also the question of ... is there a "Baseline" requirement for an autopsy to be performed for a suspected Covid death ... ??

pete376403

13th March 2022, 19:58

.

The family of the deceased may also prefer that their loved one's death ... is not recorded as a covid caused death. Thus if no autopsy has been performed and cause of death confirmed ... it is not (cannot be ??) recorded as such.

Also the question of ... is there a "Baseline" requirement for an autopsy to be performed for a suspected Covid death ... ??

Does a family get the choice? Cause of death record is not up for suggestion, surely. And if there is any question, isn't the autopsy mandatory? Otherwise what is the point of having a record, just put it down to "I dunno, just stopped living or something?"

FJRider

13th March 2022, 20:14

Does a family get the choice?

Why would they NOT ... if the death was NOT suspicious .. ??

Cause of death record is not up for suggestion, surely.

Interesting reading here ..

https://www.harknesshenry.co.nz/2019/08/23/whats-in-a-death-certificate/

And if there is any question, isn't the autopsy mandatory? Otherwise what is the point of having a record, just put it down to "I dunno, just stopped living or something?"

As above ...

pete376403

14th March 2022, 06:53

Why would they NOT ... if the death was NOT suspicious .. ??

Because its supposed to be a matter of fact, not choice.

reading here ..

https://www.harknesshenry.co.nz/2019/08/23/whats-in-a-death-certificate/

The family are supposed to provide the details of who and where, etc, but "If a person dies and the date of death is not known, or the death is sudden or unexplained, or occurs in special circumstances, the health practitioner completing the medical certificate of death will refer the death to a coroner for investigation." So maybe not an autopsy straight , but if it gets referred to the coroner, how else is the coroner going to arrive at a cause without one. But either way, it is supposed to be between the health practitioner or the coroner, not the families wishes / beliefs

TheDemonLord

14th March 2022, 07:06

Otherwise what is the point of having a record, just put it down to "I dunno, just stopped living or something?"

That is what I want my Official Cause of Death to read now. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

TheDemonLord

14th March 2022, 07:26

Everybody knows you can't have it BOTH ways ... ;)

hahahaha, well played.

When it comes to messy sets of numbers (that is numbers where there is a degree of uncertainty - and a Cause of Death, especially when you've got contributing factors has a degree of uncertainty/subjectiveness), I like to express the data both in a positive direction and a negative direction.

Easier to visualize the literal grey area (from my experience)

FJRider

14th March 2022, 07:28

Because its supposed to be a matter of fact, not choice.

Reality ... the topic we are discussing is Covid deaths. Deaths in a Hospital. With people called Doctors ... to sign the forms regarding cause of death.

They WILL know Date and probable cause of death. With the "Underlying" medical conditions of some ... the Doctors involved may not have cause to believe that Covid played a significant part in the death.

"If a person dies and the date of death is not known, or the death is sudden or unexplained, or occurs in special circumstances

I do not think Covid (related) deaths are either unexplained or special circumstances ... well not anymore.

A death unconfirmed as the result of covid ... is not a big deal. Especially if other serious medical conditions are involved.

What peaks the Coroners interest ... is a suspicious death.

FJRider

14th March 2022, 07:37

When it comes to messy sets of numbers (that is numbers where there is a degree of uncertainty - and a Cause of Death, especially when you've got contributing factors has a degree of uncertainty/subjectiveness), I like to express the data both in a positive direction and a negative direction.

Easier to visualize the literal grey area (from my experience)

Numbers (in the form of statistics) can prove or disprove any point ... depending on what point the presenter is trying to make.

pritch

14th March 2022, 07:47

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-10606107/Did-flawed-tests-convince-Covid-worse-really-was.html

That's an odd article. It talks of Britain following the science, it didn't. Initially the British response was to protect the airlines and trade, keep the airports open, and let the virus move through the population until herd immunity was attained. When Delta appeared and science said shut the border, Johnson kept the border open for weeks so he could have his meeting with the Indian PM. The meeting had to be cancelled anyway, but in the meantime 20,000 people had flown in to Britain many of whom carried Delta.

Ah well it's The daily Mail so...

pritch

14th March 2022, 07:57

FJRider

14th March 2022, 10:47

That is what I want my Official Cause of Death to read now. :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

We'd like to read your cause of death now too ... regardless of the cause.

Keep reading the death notices in your local paper. It will be there ... eventually.

I want mine to read ... stabbed by a jealous lover aged 92 years old.

TheDemonLord

14th March 2022, 14:56

Numbers (in the form of statistics) can prove or disprove any point ... depending on what point the presenter is trying to make.

That's why I like adding extra clarity to where there is any grey area.

Less interpretation, more analysis ;)

TheDemonLord

14th March 2022, 15:00

The stats in use are only temporary. Science uses the "excess deaths" figure. They look at the average deaths per year for that location, any excess during the time of Covid will be attributed to the disease.

Will or May?

See, the general idea has merit - but there are so many factors that may have caused variation - particularly cold Winter, Price increases, Political unrest, Public policy changes.

Not to discount that this is a good metric for ball-park figures and estimates, but hard stats they most certainly are not.

FJRider

14th March 2022, 19:43

That's why I like adding extra clarity to where there is any grey area.

Less interpretation, more analysis ;)

.........................

R650R

14th March 2022, 19:57

Reality ... the topic we are discussing is Covid deaths. Deaths in a Hospital. With people called Doctors ... to sign the forms regarding cause of death.

They WILL know Date and probable cause of death. With the "Underlying" medical conditions of some ... the Doctors involved may not have cause to believe that Covid played a significant part in the death.

I do not think Covid (related) deaths are either unexplained or special circumstances ... well not anymore.

A death unconfirmed as the result of covid ... is not a big deal. Especially if other serious medical conditions are involved.

What peaks the Coroners interest ... is a suspicious death.

The trouble is the medical establishment has a vested interest in the death numbers via the way health services are funded although we are not quite as bad as American model.
Very few people will resort to having their loved ones cut up for autopsy when the whole tragedy is already enough to deal with.
What’s of note though is ALL media outlets are now using term “died with covid”...

pritch

15th March 2022, 15:48

That's why I like adding extra clarity to where there is any grey area.

Less interpretation, more analysis ;)

You have a record of seeing "anomalies" where none exist. Your analysis is highly suspect.

The excess deaths figure would be a lot more reliable than anything provided by the Governor of Florida for example.

FJRider

15th March 2022, 16:40

The trouble is the medical establishment has a vested interest in the death numbers via the way health services are funded although we are not quite as bad as American model.
Very few people will resort to having their loved ones cut up for autopsy when the whole tragedy is already enough to deal with.
What’s of note though is ALL media outlets are now using term “died with covid”...

But ... "The Medical Establishment" isn't the one's face to face (literally) with the families of those who have died (Whatever the official cause of death was). And those ones facing off with the families ... have little to do with ... nor want little to do with ... the affairs of the funding side of Hospitals.

With my own family deaths in the past ... the Doctors were usually pretty quick to state that cause of death was almost certainly known ... or at least ... under law (for that particular case of death) there was no requirement for an autopsy.

Sometimes they did one in the interests of medical students learning process ... or for some unusual/uncommon conditions. Unless the family objected.

Died with covid means less chance of getting sued by a family ... if they do not believe covid actually caused the death.

TheDemonLord

16th March 2022, 08:01

You have a record of seeing "anomalies" where none exist. Your analysis is highly suspect.

There's plenty of Anomalies. Whether they conclusively prove something is a different question.

The excess deaths figure would be a lot more reliable than anything provided by the Governor of Florida for example.

Would it though?

That's an awfully bold, considering that a State Governor would have access to the exact number as determined by the State Coroners....

Not to mention that Excess is a very coarse metric.

R650R

16th March 2022, 14:47

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300542321/covid19-24-deaths-reported-of-which-16-are-historical

Of the 24 deaths reported on Wednesday, eight died on Tuesday, the Ministry of Health said. Sixteen died in the past three weeks, but have just now been publicly reported.

Local public health authorities notified these deaths to the ministry in the past 24 hours, as part of the changes to the reporting of deaths announced last week.

Among the 24 deaths reported on Wednesday – the average age of which was 79 – eight died at aged residential care facilities, the ministry said.

One was aged in their 40s, one in their 50s, four in their 60s, three in their 70s, eight in their 80s and six in their 90s. Eleven were women and twelve were men. Demographic information for one person was not available.

husaberg

16th March 2022, 16:51

You said previously that they were trying to boost the numbers and that was when our national death toll was about sixty which was patently absurd. Obviously this new system makes the numbers higher than when you thought they were being boosted. You were due zero kudos then and zero now, you have nothing to gloat about.

https://pics.me.me/thumb_arguing-withatrump-supporter-is-like-playing-chess-with-a-pigeon-6408098.png

pritch

17th March 2022, 11:28

There's plenty of Anomalies. Whether they conclusively prove something is a different question.

Would it though?

That's an awfully bold, considering that a State Governor would have access to the exact number as determined by the State Coroners....

Not to mention that Excess is a very coarse metric.

There is evidence that DeSantis has been falsifying the figures all along. He didn't like the official figures so he sacked the person responsible for keeping the records. She kept publishing the figures from home, so her house was raided by gun waving poice and her computers seized.

It's believed the virus got into old folks homes in Florida as it did elsewhere, but no informaton was forthcoming.

Florida reported 263,450 deaths of all ages for the year 2021. Expected deaths were 219,908. That is an increase of 43,542 deaths (+19.8%).

You may believe that excess deaths is a coarse metric, but it will likely be the one that history uses. That's the one the scientists use and politicians can't fuck with it.

TheDemonLord

17th March 2022, 15:53

There is evidence that DeSantis has been falsifying the figures all along. He didn't like the official figures so he sacked the person responsible for keeping the records.
She kept publishing the figures from home, so her house was raided by gun waving poice and her computers seized.

Okay, taking that on face value - posting Government data when you are no longer a government employee is a big no-no.

It's believed the virus got into old folks homes in Florida as it did elsewhere, but no informaton was forthcoming.

Florida reported 263,450 deaths of all ages for the year 2021. Expected deaths were 219,908. That is an increase of 43,542 deaths (+19.8%).

You may believe that excess deaths is a coarse metric, but it will likely be the one that history uses. That's the one the scientists use and politicians can't fuck with it.

To quote JBP:

'Doing a Univariate analysis on a multivariate problem is almost pointless'

Now, to be sure, some of those are likely due to Covid directly or complications from Covid, some may even be tangentially due to Covid - but to ascribe them all to Covid is just bad stats.

R650R

18th March 2022, 15:02

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300544627/its-perfectly-safe-to-dine-out-in-restaurants--bloomfield

One minute it’s STAY THE F&$@ at home .... and The ground outside your house is LAVA...
And ohhhh a new deadlier more contagious version is here and ohh this one is even more contagious.....

Bbbbuuuuuttttttt it’s apparently “ perfectly safe” to dine out in restaurants....

It seems like the govt is hurting from all the lost revenue from many people to petrified to leave their voluntary bubbles after two years of a daily broadcast engendering a permenant pschychosis of fear.

You can now do lots of things to get life back to normal he says....

But it’s not normal, nothing can be done with spontaneity of a free society.
Carry and put a mask on.
You have to scan at door, maybe present your papers.
Don’t walk to close to anybody.
Stifle any random cough or sniffle lest you be reported to health dept....
It’s not natural or normal and many people like myself can’t be bothered with it all.
Then there’s thectrue believers who are petrified of the virus....

And as for all the people working from home.... Big business LOVES you labour more than the trucking lobby allegedly loves national. No longer do they have to pay for expensive commercial office space, heating, carpets etc.... Anyhow all those people will never be coming back for overpriced city lattes and muffins.... half of that plus associated business smashed and never to recover....

Who’d have thought Labour Making Big Corporate Profits Great Again

FJRider

18th March 2022, 15:22

... 1600 people sick in a country of 5 million is no crisis worth destroying jobs and lives for.

438,000 cases so far. 135 Dead.

Yup ... nothing to panic about ... ;)

mashman

18th March 2022, 15:38

438,000 cases so far. 135 Dead.

Yup ... nothing to panic about ... ;)

So about 0.03% of cases die given those numbers.

Since the Pfizer document release, it turns out that Death accounted for 1.3% of the vaccines side-effects.

Just sayin'...

FJRider

18th March 2022, 16:20

So about 0.03% of cases die given those numbers.

Since the Pfizer document release, it turns out that Death accounted for 1.3% of the vaccines side-effects.

Just sayin'...

Remember ... those are only the NZ figures. And the deaths were only the known confirmed cases.

If your numbers are right ... the families of that 0.03% have nothing to worry about ... right .. ??

When the borders to the cities and the country were opened ... the increase in case numbers rose.

Just a coincidence ... right .. ??

FJRider

18th March 2022, 16:52

One minute it’s STAY THE F&$@ at home .... and The ground outside your house is LAVA...
And ohhhh a new deadlier more contagious version is here and ohh this one is even more contagious.....

Bbbbuuuuuttttttt it’s apparently “ perfectly safe” to dine out in restaurants....

For the time being ... just consider it the NEW normal.

It used to be normal to leave your house ... with nobody there ... for a few days or more. No worries.

Times change ... get over it.

It seems like the govt is hurting from all the lost revenue from many people to petrified to leave their voluntary bubbles after two years of a daily broadcast engendering a permenant pschychosis of fear.

Most of those staying at home by choice were on a Benefit. And they haven't got any money anyway.

They couldn't go far in the early stages of the Pandemic anyway. Everything was closed. The prices the places that are open now ... you need more money to pay the inflated prices they all now charge.

You can now do lots of things to get life back to normal he says....

But it’s not normal, nothing can be done with spontaneity of a free society.
Carry and put a mask on.
You have to scan at door, maybe present your papers.
Don’t walk to close to anybody.
Stifle any random cough or sniffle lest you be reported to health dept....
It’s not natural or normal and many people like myself can’t be bothered with it all.
Then there’s thectrue believers who are petrified of the virus....

As above ... the new normal. Your health may depend on it.

And as for all the people working from home.... Big business LOVES you labour more than the trucking lobby allegedly loves national. No longer do they have to pay for expensive commercial office space, heating, carpets etc.... Anyhow all those people will never be coming back for overpriced city lattes and muffins.... half of that plus associated business smashed and never to recover....

Businesses have to adapt to changing times ... if they want to stay in business. That hasn't ever changed.

And more changes are coming ... you can bet on it.

Who’d have thought Labour Making Big Corporate Profits Great Again

If they want to stay in power ... :whistle:

And when they get back into power after the election ... :lol:

mashman

18th March 2022, 16:54

If your numbers are right ... the families of that 0.03% have nothing to worry about ... right .. ??

Really .. ??... Pfizers numbers ... Not in the slightest ... Some people are going to die, they always do.

Are you happy to explain to the families of the 1.3% that your fear was more important than the science?

FJRider

18th March 2022, 18:52

Really .. ??... Pfizers numbers ... Not in the slightest ... Some people are going to die, they always do.

Are you happy to explain to the families of the 1.3% that your fear was more important than the science?

People die in wars too ... it's sorta expected. AND in Pandemics it's expected then too ... Apparently.

In the past I've taken even stricter protocols to stay alive than covid caused. And it's not fear ... just a desire to keep on living my life.

I saw all the jabs and mandates as cheap insurance.

Since the initial lockdown ... I would have spent less than a week actually IN lockdown. I was working ... and off-shift anyway. My lifestyle hasn't changed. I never saw "the Mandates" as any big issue. Still don't. My pay was ALWAYS in my bank on the days it was due.

I lived a more restrictive life in the Army (for less pay) ... with severer penalties if I didn't follow their rules. And more jabs and vaccinations then ... than in the last two years.

All the choices you make in your life are yours to make. And the result of your decisions may affect other peoples lives. I hope it works out for you AND them.

R650R

18th March 2022, 19:09

For the time being ... just consider it the NEW normal.

It used to be normal to leave your house ... with nobody there ... for a few days or more. No worries.

Times change ... get over it.

Most of those staying at home by choice were on a Benefit. And they haven't got any money anyway.

They couldn't go far in the early stages of the Pandemic anyway. Everything was closed. The prices the places that are open now ... you need more money to pay the inflated prices they all now charge.

As above ... the new normal. Your health may depend on it.

Businesses have to adapt to changing times ... if they want to stay in business. That hasn't ever changed.

And more changes are coming ... you can bet on it.

If they want to stay in power ... :whistle:

And when they get back into power after the election ... :lol:

That’s got to be the greatest insult to the New Zealand population ever since the Aussies claimed they invented pavalova.

NOBODY was staying at home by choice unless they were the lucky few of us essential workers. The ghost town roads were clear evidence of that!!!
Who are all these people on benefits Labour was claiming record low unemployment

FJRider

18th March 2022, 19:35

Who are all these people on benefits Labour was claiming record low unemployment

Probably on a sickness benefit ... if that WAS true.

BUT ...

The Anti-vaxers main claim ... was how the mandates were putting all those people out of work.

So ... that didn't happen.

Who knew ... :lol:

TheDemonLord

19th March 2022, 07:41

Interesting conversation had recently:

One of my local Subways recently had to close due to staff having to self-isolate.

After they were back up and running, I went to get my usual order - chatting with them (they are still very short staffed) - they were talking how they had to use all their holiday pay to Self-Isolate (bearing in mind these ladies are late teens early 20s):

"I don't understand it - The Government forces me to stay home, but then I have to use my holiday pay to cover my bills"

Me: "Welcome to the Libertarian side of Politics, would you follow a Government law that said you have to jump off a cliff?"

"Well... no"

Me: "Exactly, just because it's law, doesn't mean it's right or moral"

You could see the wheels turning as she pondered it.

R650R

19th March 2022, 14:28

R650R

19th March 2022, 14:32

I just accidentky watched govt propoganda on YouTube as as its slightly difficult muting onnphone in time....
“If you are already isolating in a covid positive household (as close contact but negative) and you catch covid you don’t have to add to isolation time unless your symptoms worsen etc

What happened to the horror of asymptomatic super spreaders?????

The wheels are falling off this bus everyday

I wonder if an election year is approaching????

husaberg

19th March 2022, 15:01

Still a preferable outcome than to be put on a train to go to “ health camp”

so you are saying the govt should pay for sick leave for people that are sick.
So people dont get sick leave days removed from their sick leave entitlements because they are sick
Sick leave provisions Which exist solely to allow them to take sick days when they are sick or looking after a dependent who is sick and risk spreading that to a customer
Yet you both believe in user pays.....
This ranks high as being a special kind of stupid.

350811
Employment NZ

Sick leave
10 paid days of sick leave per year is available to employees so they can care for themselves or their dependents.
Sick leave is paid time off work if an employee, their spouse, partner, dependent child, or other person who depends on them is sick or injured.

Bussiness.govt. NZ
Sick leave
If your staff members are sick, encourage them to stay home. Not only will it give them a chance to rest and recover, but it will help stop others in your team from getting sick. In the long run, it’ll keep your business more productive.
fter an employee has been working for you for six months, they're legally entitled to at least 10 days' paid sick leave a year.

You must:
allow for employees to accumulate up to 20 days of sick leave. This means employees can carry over 10 days of unused sick leave into the next year
allow employees to use sick leave to care for a sick or injured spouse, partner, dependent child or any other dependent individual
pay a sick employee what they’d get if they’d worked a normal day, including bonuses, overtime etc.
You can:
let employees who’ve worked for you for less than six months take sick leave in advance
choose to let employees carry over extra sick leave, beyond the 20 day requirement from year to year
offer more than 10 days of paid sick leave a year.
Every employee would be entitled to 10 days’ sick leave each year (if they qualify) regardless of working pattern.
Sick leave entitlements(external link) - Employment New Zealand

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3959940/

Mary Mallon was born in 1869 in Ireland and emigrated to the US in 1884. She had worked in a variety of domestic positions for wealthy families prior to settling into her career as a cook. As a healthy carrier of Salmonella typhi her nickname of “Typhoid Mary” had become synonymous with the spread of disease, as many were infected due to her denial of being ill. She was forced into quarantine on two separate occasions on North Brother Island for a total of 26 years and died alone without friends, having evidently found consolation in her religion to which she gave her faith and loyalty.

the Govt also forces them to maintain pesky food safety standards maybe they should not maintain them with your food cooling and prep/cleaning and where they source their ingrediants

TheDemonLord

19th March 2022, 15:28

so you are saying the govt should pay for sick leave for people that are sick.
So people dont get sick leave days removed from their sick leave entitlements because they are sick
Sick leave provisions Which exist solely to allow them to take sick days when they are sick or looking after a dependent who is sick and risk spreading that to a customer
Yet you both believe in user pays.....
This ranks high as being a special kind of stupid.

See, here we have your classic Bait and Switch.

Government mandating you to stay at home is not the same as you deciding you are too sick to work.

If the Government is mandating you not to work, then by rights, the Government should foot the bill.

Of course, I also believe the Government shouldn't Pay, which means I believe the Government has no business (heh) mandating when you can and cannot go to work.

Kickaha

19th March 2022, 18:03

If the Government is mandating you not to work, then by rights, the Government should foot the bill.

They do, the employer needs to apply for it though

FJRider

19th March 2022, 18:14

Interesting conversation had recently:

People still talk to you .. ?? But I guess you being a customer ... they have to I suppose ... :lol:

One of my local Subways recently had to close due to staff having to self-isolate.

Obviously not following Covid Pass protocol. The managers fault. Did they ask YOU for YOUR Covid Pass .. ??

After they were back up and running, I went to get my usual order - chatting with them (they are still very short staffed) - they were talking how they had to use all their holiday pay to Self-Isolate (bearing in mind these ladies are late teens early 20s):

Remember ... that is probably their first ever REAL job. They haven't learned to save yet.

And they probably didn't have many paid holidays owing anyway.

How long were they closed for .. ??

"I don't understand it - The Government forces me to stay home, but then I have to use my holiday pay to cover my bills"

NO ... their EMPLOYER forced them to stay home due to poor (Covid protocol) management. They should report him/her.

Me: "Welcome to the Libertarian side of Politics, would you follow a Government law that said you have to jump off a cliff?"

You mean ... Welcome to the REAL WORLD (now). Get over it.

"Well... no"

Stupid questions ARE your forte ... and they gave the correct answer.

Me: "Exactly, just because it's law, doesn't mean it's right or moral"

And it's NOT a LAW. It never HAS been a LAW.

AND ... it will NEVER be LAW in NZ.

Morality is up to the individual to decide. And I can't see it being YOUR strong point. But there ARE some Laws on that subject in NZ though.

You could see the wheels turning as she pondered it.

More like ... they were probably thinking ... what sort of (fat ??) fuck-wit have we got here.

FJRider

19th March 2022, 18:23

so you are saying the govt should pay for sick leave for people that are sick.
So people dont get sick leave days removed from their sick leave entitlements because they are sick
Sick leave provisions Which exist solely to allow them to take sick days when they are sick or looking after a dependent who is sick and risk spreading that to a customer
Yet you both believe in user pays.....
This ranks high as being a special kind of stupid.

Those sort of work places often include sick leave and holiday pay in their wages. It makes their pay rate look good. But NOT really.

The employee's concerned ... should read their employment contract. It spells out exactly what they are entitled to.

Which ... if TDL had half a brain ... that is what HE should have told them.

F5 Dave

19th March 2022, 19:17

Jesus I can't imagine people talk to tdl in meat space. You would think that they would run a mile.

husaberg

19th March 2022, 20:15

Jesus I can't imagine people talk to tdl in meat space. You would think that they would run a mile.

i can imagine them thinking through how he said they need not obey those pesky govt rules which include washing their hands after the toilet, refrigerating or properly cooking the meat and checking temps in the fridge or not working while they have dysentery, all the while, whilst they make him his footlong meatball and botulism sub.
You know just because foot safety is in the law.......:weird: surely they can just do as they feel.....

TheDemonLord

20th March 2022, 08:39

i can imagine them thinking through how he said they need not obey those pesky govt rules which include washing their hands after the toilet, refrigerating or properly cooking the meat and checking temps in the fridge or not working while they have dysentery, all the while, whilst they make him his footlong meatball and botulism sub.
You know just because foot safety is in the law.......:weird: surely they can just do as they feel.....

And let's run this thought experiment:

What happens next? Let's leave the Government out of it for the sake of the experiment (so no Council or safety inspectors):

People stop going, their franchise licence is revoked and they loose money and go bust.

TheDemonLord

20th March 2022, 08:46

Obviously not following Covid Pass protocol. The managers fault. Did they ask YOU for YOUR Covid Pass .. ??

Perk of being a regular, they did try at one point - then they realised they like my Money more than they like my arguments.

Remember ... that is probably their first ever REAL job. They haven't learned to save yet.

And they probably didn't have many paid holidays owing anyway.

How long were they closed for .. ??

10 days mandatory shut down.

NO ... their EMPLOYER forced them to stay home due to poor (Covid protocol) management. They should report him/her.

No, it was most definitely the Government self-isolation rules that forced them to stay home.

Stupid questions ARE your forte ... and they gave the correct answer.

Is it a Stupid question though? When we have all the other factors (late teens, early twenties, double vaccinated, Mask wearing, no physical impairment from catching it etc. etc.) it's no more or no less stupid.

And it's NOT a LAW. It never HAS been a LAW.

AND ... it will NEVER be LAW in NZ.

Morality is up to the individual to decide. And I can't see it being YOUR strong point. But there ARE some Laws on that subject in NZ though.

Indeed Morality is up to the individual.

More like ... they were probably thinking ... what sort of (fat ??) fuck-wit have we got here.

They know me quite well in there - hence why they felt comfortable enough to complain that they were forced to stay home and were forced to use their holiday pay for it.

TheDemonLord

20th March 2022, 08:47

They do, the employer needs to apply for it though

And if your employer doesn't want to apply for it...

R650R

20th March 2022, 08:55

And let's run this thought experiment:

What happens next? Let's leave the Government out of it for the sake of the experiment (so no Council or safety inspectors):

People stop going, their franchise licence is revoked and they loose money and go bust.

Yes and we’ve just had the best ever Scientific experiment showing the “success” of govt intervention/regulation.

We created a raft of draconian laws.
We created massive restrictions.
We made private business operate like East German Stasi operatives.
We vilified anyone who didn’t want to play by the rules.

Yet we ended up with 20,000 new cases a day of the virus. Ironically much are them are infected due to believe govts story that the new “freedoms” make it safe to mingle.
Meanwhile half the population going by media reports is self regulating and staying home because they are vulnerable or elderly etc...
Time and time again we see if a concept works it’s usually user orientayed and doesn’t involve the govt.

pete376403

20th March 2022, 10:14

And if your employer doesn't want to apply for it...

Not many employers turn down the opportunity for money from the government, even when they dont deserve or need it. About half repaid the subsidy (at the time of this article) indicating it wasn't needed after all but it didn't stop them getting in line when first announced.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/450479/figures-show-smaller-firms-make-up-majority-of-876m-wage-subsidy-payout-so-far

mashman

20th March 2022, 10:23

I saw all the jabs and mandates as cheap insurance.

Wilful ignorance is no excuse.

All the choices you make in your life are yours to make.

Unless they're overridden by collective wilful ignorance.

And the result of your decisions may affect other peoples lives.

They do. I weigh them slightly more carefully than simply going with the flow, coz sometimes it might just save millions of lives and tens of millions of people's livelihoods one day.

I hope it works out for you AND them.

The fuck you care... you couldn't be arsed evaluating the competing science.

Snake oil is snake oil. Snake oil customers are snake oil customers. That the govt are still running ads claiming immunity.

'nuff said.

TheDemonLord

20th March 2022, 11:34

Not many employers turn down the opportunity for money from the government, even when they dont deserve or need it. About half repaid the subsidy (at the time of this article) indicating it wasn't needed after all but it didn't stop them getting in line when first announced.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/450479/figures-show-smaller-firms-make-up-majority-of-876m-wage-subsidy-payout-so-far

I can't speak for all Small business owners - but the 2 scenarios I've seen so-far:

1: Owners CBF and it looks better for the balance sheet for workers to use up Sick Leave/Annual Leave
2: Owners may not be 100% up to date with their accounting and so don't want any additional scrutiny.

TheDemonLord

20th March 2022, 11:37

Yes and we’ve just had the best ever Scientific experiment showing the “success” of govt intervention/regulation.

We created a raft of draconian laws.
We created massive restrictions.
We made private business operate like East German Stasi operatives.
We vilified anyone who didn’t want to play by the rules.

Yet we ended up with 20,000 new cases a day of the virus. Ironically much are them are infected due to believe govts story that the new “freedoms” make it safe to mingle.
Meanwhile half the population going by media reports is self regulating and staying home because they are vulnerable or elderly etc...
Time and time again we see if a concept works it’s usually user orientayed and doesn’t involve the govt.

You mean to say that we are governed by consent and that there's a social contract that exists between the People and the Government and that bottom up works whereas top-down never does?!?!

That's some radically crazy ideas.

FJRider

20th March 2022, 15:40

Perk of being a regular, they did try at one point

AS I said ... maybe their management Covid protocols weren't up to required standard (as per your own admission). If they didn't shoot themselves in the foot (so to speak) ... maybe they were just unlucky. I'm personally guessing the former. I have been known to be wrong about some things.

But ... it's all the Governments fault. It MUST be ... surely.

Bugger eh .. !!

10 days mandatory shut down.

Bugger. And I wonder if the girls you spoke to ... got ten days holiday pay. Ten days pay spent in ten days ... must have been good days ... :killingme

No, it was most definitely the Government self-isolation rules that forced them to stay home.

As the result of poor (or non existent ??) covid protocols in that business. Them's the rules ...

Is it a Stupid question though? When we have all the other factors (late teens, early twenties, double vaccinated, Mask wearing, no physical impairment from catching it etc. etc.) it's no more or no less stupid.

If they just couldn't work because the business was shut down ... because some staff had to self isolate. Doesn't actually mean ANY of the staff actually did have covid. As I recall ... close contacts have to self isolate. IF ... Somebody that was LATER found to have covid admitted visiting the place (even with no covid pass asked for maybe) ... and THEN due to Government Covid protocol ... The shop got the ten day stand down period ... and the staff on that day ... got to spend that time in self isolation.

Definitely a real bugger for you ... you had to find another Subway outlet. That must have been really hard for you. Did you have to walk far .. ??

I do find it funny though ... that your favourite places are where they have food ... and they talk to you ... :killingme

Times ARE tough.

But you get by ... right .. :niceone:

Indeed Morality is up to the individual.

Morality is a big deal for some ... but only for he individual that thinks they're being hard done by ... by somebody. Or even thinking they might be missing out on something they want ... that "Everybody else" is having. And it's (obviously) THEIR morals that are wrong.

Me not so much ... I'd happily get you deep in the shit (am trying to think how I could) ... and I wouldn't loose a minutes sleep over it.

And I'm just one individual admitting that. I bet there's a few with similar "Morals" ... ;)

See how morals really work ... :laugh:

Personally ... I think term morality .. is (more than a little) overrated. Everybody has a different version THEY think is correct.

They know me quite well in there - hence why they felt comfortable enough to complain that they were forced to stay home and were forced to use their holiday pay for it.

I'm sure your chats make their day.

Do they give you a discount .. ??

FJRider

20th March 2022, 16:11

Wilful ignorance is no excuse.

In whose regard ??

Unless they're overridden by collective wilful ignorance.

You mean the old "Majority Rules" collective wilful ignorance ... :killingme

Its a bugger being in a minority group. Eh ... :pinch:

They do. I weigh them slightly more carefully than simply going with the flow, coz sometimes it might just save millions of lives and tens of millions of people's livelihoods one day.

Had the "Mandated" Covid rules and restrictions ... were NOT put in place. Would the number of Covid related deaths in New Zealand ... be more or less at this stage in time ... ??

The fuck you care... you couldn't be arsed evaluating the competing science.

Snake oil is snake oil. Snake oil customers are snake oil customers. That the govt are still running ads claiming immunity.

The "Competing Science" advocated by you ... is laughable. The majority is either no longer in production ... either because it proved ineffective or unreliable. The rest was actually intended for animals.

Competing science ... yeah right.

Better results than those .. could probably be better achieved in a sixth form school science lab.

'nuff said.

Indeed.

I might have missed it in the news ... but what was achieved at the protest in wellington ... ??

Were ANY of their demands met ... ???