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husaberg

11th April 2021, 15:47

scumdog

11th April 2021, 20:08

Yeah the FBI statistics gathered are fake news. It's really the fluoride in the water that causes it. That's why I only drink out of puddles.

Ah but the chemtrails will get you...:rolleyes:

F5 Dave

11th April 2021, 20:39

I drink thru musieleum cloth. Allah will protect me.

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 09:13

Data come from the National Crime Victimization Survey 2007–2011.
Analyzed by Harvard university
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0091743515001188#!

Self-defense gun use (SDGU) occurs in fewer than 1% of contact crimes. (.9%)
Males and rural dwellers are most likely to use a gun in self-defense.
Seld defense gun use is not associated with a reduced risk of victim injury.

Interesting that you chose to omit the next line:

Self-defense with any weapon is associated with a reduced risk of property loss.

So it does appear, by the sources that you provided, that being armed reduces Crime.

From the CDC - the upper estimate is that Armed citizens prevent approximately 2.5 Million crimes each year.

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 09:14

So Biden is looking at some gun control measures.
Lets roll out the ole "Good Guy With a Gun" will save the day bullshit (a whole 3% of active shooter events stopped)

How are the other 97% stopped?

And would it be by People, armed with Guns?

sugilite

12th April 2021, 09:32

How are the other 97% stopped?

And would it be by People, armed with Guns?
Sometimes.

Maybe the question should be why do so many active /mass shootings begin?
This graph below may give a hint.

https://cdn.cfr.org/sites/default/files/styles/large_s/public/image/2019/08/gun-policy-bars-desktop.png

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 09:51

Sometimes.

Maybe the question should be why do so many active /mass shootings begin?
This graph below may give a hint.

https://cdn.cfr.org/sites/default/files/styles/large_s/public/image/2019/08/gun-policy-bars-desktop.png

Correlation =/= Causation - otherwise Fire trucks cause House fires.

So how do you explain the likes of Norway then? Or NZ if it was included in that list?

The devil is in the detail - if you exclude all of the Criminal shootings* (which make up the vast majority of Firearm Murders in the US) it looks a little bit different. As others have alluded to - most of these aren't happening in Republican 2A safe havens, they are happening in States that have some of the strictest Firearm Laws.

*Namely shootings by people who either don't have a Firearm licence, a CCP or otherwise would not be eligible to own a Firearm in the State that they are in.

The answer is being phrased as 'More guns means more shootings', but then you have to account for countries that have a long history of high rates of Firearm Ownership (The Nordic countries, NZ, Switzerland etc.), Civilian Marksmanship, high rates of Semi-Auto Rifle ownership (and yes, I'm still including NZ in that list because 60,000 out of an absolute minimum of 180,000 is hilarious) and yet extremely low rates of Firearm crime.

And whilst I'm mentioning NZ - Firearm crime went up after Jacinda banned all those Eeeeeevil Semi-Autos, so how does that factor into your conclusion?

Tieing this all back - the answer is more accurately:

"The higher that rate of Firearm Possession, by Criminals, the more Firearm Murders will be committed. Having a balanced system, that has the approval and consent of the law-abiding firearm owners may lead to higher rates of Firearm ownership, but lower rates of Firearm crime"

sugilite

12th April 2021, 09:57

Correlation =/= Causation - otherwise Fire trucks cause House fires.

So how do you explain the likes of Norway then? Or NZ if it was included in that list?

The devil is in the detail - if you exclude all of the Criminal shootings* (which make up the vast majority of Firearm Murders in the US) it looks a little bit different. As others have alluded to - most of these aren't happening in Republican 2A safe havens, they are happening in States that have some of the strictest Firearm Laws.

*Namely shootings by people who either don't have a Firearm licence, a CCP or otherwise would not be eligible to own a Firearm in the State that they are in.

The answer is being phrased as 'More guns means more shootings', but then you have to account for countries that have a long history of high rates of Firearm Ownership (The Nordic countries, NZ, Switzerland etc.), Civilian Marksmanship, high rates of Semi-Auto Rifle ownership (and yes, I'm still including NZ in that list because 60,000 out of an absolute minimum of 180,000 is hilarious) and yet extremely low rates of Firearm crime.

And whilst I'm mentioning NZ - Firearm crime went up after Jacinda banned all those Eeeeeevil Semi-Autos, so how does that factor into your conclusion?

Tieing this all back - the answer is more accurately:

"The higher that rate of Firearm Possession, by Criminals, the more Firearm Murders will be committed. Having a balanced system, that has the approval and consent of the law-abiding firearm owners may lead to higher rates of Firearm ownership, but lower rates of Firearm crime"
So the USA should continue to do nothing. It is working so well - yes? I guess the advantage of sticking their heads in the sand is it is only their arse that gets shot huh. :facepalm:

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 10:17

So the USA should continue to do nothing. It is working so well - yes? I guess the advantage of sticking their heads in the sand is it is only their arse that gets shot huh. :facepalm:

Can you point to where I said that?

Come now, you are very quick to accuse me when you think I've done it.

The oversimplification of:
"More Guns means More murders, therefore less guns means less murders" as a justification for taking peoples personal property at (ironically) Gun point is simply not true.

The solution first and foremost is to deal with the group of people that in NZ account for 97% of Firearm crime. That would be Criminals.

Once that has been sorted, then perhaps we can look at how we issue licences to ensure that people who shouldn't own a Firearm aren't able to.

(and then we need to make sure the people who look after the licences actually follow their own Damn Rules....)

sugilite

12th April 2021, 10:28

Can you point to where I said that?

Come now, you are very quick to accuse me when you think I've done it.

The oversimplification of:
"More Guns means More murders, therefore less guns means less murders" as a justification for taking peoples personal property at (ironically) Gun point is simply not true.

The solution first and foremost is to deal with the group of people that in NZ account for 97% of Firearm crime. That would be Criminals.

Once that has been sorted, then perhaps we can look at how we issue licences to ensure that people who shouldn't own a Firearm aren't able to.

(and then we need to make sure the people who look after the licences actually follow their own Damn Rules....)

Nope, I'm not falling for that banana skin.
When you state the devil is in the details, what that actually means is the devil is in your details - ones painstakingly picked out (often out of context) to support your position. Like when Sidney Powell was initially clearly in Trumps legal team. Despite it being indisputable, you still disputed it. So i I just don't get into your "devils details" anymore - to preserve my own sanity old bean.

I do not consider NZ has any out of control gun problems. Sound reasoned actions have been undertaken in my opinion. I know you do not feel the same.
On the other hand the USA has a massive problem.
The charts do show, more guns = more murders, no matter which way you choose to spin it.

pritch

12th April 2021, 11:34

How are the other 97% stopped?
And would it be by People, armed with Guns?

Who said they were stopped?

I'm reminded of the cross examination that took place in an American court. It went something like this:

Lawyer to cop. "How long have you been a Police officer?"
"Fifteen years."
"You must have attended many vilolent incidents?"
"Yes, too may to count."
"In how many of those incidents did you arrive in time to prevent the violence?"

Of course that took place following one of the 3% incidents.

The police don't always stop the 97%, they come along later and investigate the crime. Sometimes they prosecute.

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 11:53

Nope, I'm not falling for that banana skin.
When you state the devil is in the details, what that actually means is the devil is in your details - ones painstakingly picked out (often out of context) to support your position. Like when Sidney Powell was initially clearly in Trumps legal team. Despite it being indisputable, you still disputed it. So i I just don't get into your "devils details" anymore - to preserve my own sanity old bean.

I do not consider NZ has any out of control gun problems. Sound reasoned actions have been undertaken in my opinion. I know you do not feel the same.
On the other hand the USA has a massive problem.
The charts do show, more guns = more murders, no matter which way you choose to spin it.

If you pick one data point (the US), then sure.

But in order to pick that, you have to disregard the myriad of countries that have high ownership rates and low crime. That is the detail you need to account for. There's no out-of-context points here.

The Charts also show that More Fire Engines = More Fires, therefore we should Ban Fire Engines as they *clearly* cause fires.

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 11:54

Who said they were stopped?

I'm reminded of the cross examination that took place in an American court. It went something like this:

Lawyer to cop. "How long have you been a Police officer?"
"Fifteen years."
"You must have attended many vilolent incidents?"
"Yes, too may to count."
"In how many of those incidents did you arrive in time to prevent the violence?"

Of course that took place following one of the 3% incidents.

The police don't always stop the 97%, they come along later and investigate the crime. Sometimes they prosecute.

A good point, but in the context of Mass Shooters - they keep going until they are cornered by other people with Guns and typically either are shot and killed or more often, kill themselves rather than be taken alive.

Eitherway - it's good people with Guns that stop bad people with Guns.

sugilite

12th April 2021, 13:22

If you pick one data point (the US), then sure.

But in order to pick that, you have to disregard the myriad of countries that have high ownership rates and low crime. That is the detail you need to account for. There's no out-of-context points here.

The Charts also show that More Fire Engines = More Fires, therefore we should Ban Fire Engines as they *clearly* cause fires.

Where are these charts showing more fire engines cause more fires please?

TheDemonLord

12th April 2021, 14:52

Where are these charts showing more fire engines cause more fires please?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271608619/figure/fig1/AS:669007699013646@1536515273977/The-relationship-model-of-property-loss-caused-by-fire-with-the-type-of-shopping-mall-and.png

"The relationship model of property loss caused by fire with the type of shopping mall and total number of fire engines needed to be dispatched"

Clearly, More Fire Engines means more Property damage, therefore we need to Ban Fire engines to prevent damage by Fire.

This is basic Stats 101, that a correlation is not a Causation - and I'm parodying your argument - by choosing a different set of metrics to show why it's wrong.

And if we look at the US - specifically, let's say tomorrow Magic Joe Biden snaps his fingers and all lawfully owned Firearms are removed from private individuals.

The Firearm Murder figures wouldn't change a whole lot. Since the overwhelming majority are caused by inner city Gang Violence. People who can't legally obtain a Firearm. Same to in NZ - 97% of all firearm crime is done by Criminals who cannot and do not hold a Firearm license.

In states with high rates of CCP or Open Carry laws, we know, from the CDC (That notorious Right-Wing source) that Armed Citizens do stop a large number of Crimes from happening regularly.

TheDemonLord

29th April 2021, 09:44

pritch

7th May 2021, 09:00

You may be aware that the Arizona State Republican politicians have engaged a private firm to conduct an audit of the votes in the 2020 election. The company, Cyber Ninjas, is headed by a Q Anon conspiracy theorist with no qualifications or experience in electoral work. Consequently there have been some concerns.

It was noticed that the staff conducting the “audit” were using blue pens. It had to be pointed out that the voting machines read blue or black ink. Electoral staff use pens with red or green ink which is ignored by the machines. The head of Cyber Ninjas said that was news to him.

Only one TV company is permitted on site: OAN.

The “observers” have all signed non disclosure agreements. If they do observe anything they can’t tell anyone.

One of the guys working on the floor was involved in the Jan 6th coup attempt. He is a former police officer who was fired from the police and is featured on a list of corrupt Arizona police officers. Oh, and he was a candidate in the last election.

Trump has been very excited by these proceedings and reportedly asks for progress reports several times a day. Of particular interest was the use of ultra violet light.

It seems that a particular focus of the “audit” is a search for bamboo. There is a theory that the Chinese (or other 'South East Asians') inserted 40,000 votes for Biden into the system. Obviously votes from China will contain bamboo. Or something.

If that seems unhinged to you, you’re OK, it is.

The audit is proceeding very slowly. Unfortunately the venue that is being used has prior bookings which will necessitate the audit to pack up and movie out, perhaps to move back after the other events are complete. Or not.

The latest development is that the Arizona House has received a letter from the US Dept of Justice pointing out that the audit is illegal on a number of grounds and must cease. Ballots are only supposed to be handled by electoral officials, never by a private company. Cyber Ninjas were apparently planning on interviewing individual voters about their ballot. That comes under the heading of voter intimidation and that too is illegal.

The crazy is strong in Arizona.

R650R

8th May 2021, 09:30

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/5/dhs-may-restart-border-wall-construction-plug-gaps/

Biden:

"I'm going to build a Wall, it's gonna be a Beautiful Wall"

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol:

*deep breath*

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol:

Can the Trump haters please remind me how "little" amount of the wall Trump completed ??????
Cause you all spammed the thread so much is hard to search that term.....
Anyway in the above article your favourite anti trump news paper the Washington post says he built 460 miles 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

pete376403

8th May 2021, 09:36

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/apr/5/dhs-may-restart-border-wall-construction-plug-gaps/

Biden:

"I'm going to build a Wall, it's gonna be a Beautiful Wall"l:

"The discretionary request includes no additional funding for border wall construction and proposes the cancellation of prior-year balances that are unobligated at the end of 2021." It's a long read so I've saved you the effort of finding it - bottom of page 15 of the enclosure, under Department of Homeland Security heading.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/FY2022-Discretionary-Request.pdf

pete376403

8th May 2021, 10:44

Can the Trump haters please remind me how "little" amount of the wall Trump completed ??????
Cause you all spammed the thread so much is hard to search that term.....
Anyway in the above article your favourite anti trump news paper the Washington post says he built 460 miles 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Can you not tell the difference between Washington Post and Washington NEWS?

husaberg

8th May 2021, 11:16

Can you not tell the difference between Washington Post and Washington NEWS?

its pretty clear the troll doesn't know resident trump built 52 miles of "fencing" the rest was reconstructed or reinforced old wall.

BBC

The Trump administration built more than 450 miles of fencing along the US-Mexico border -- including hundreds of miles of replacement fencing and 52 miles of construction where there were no barriers before.
The US Mexio border is over 2000 miles long
In contrast, the great wall of China which is a solid wall rather than a fence is over 12000 miles long.

pritch

8th May 2021, 11:57

I came across this today and saved it for a suitable occasion. Now's good.

scumdog

8th May 2021, 20:04

The US Mexio border is over 2000 miles long
In contrast, the great wall of China which is a solid wall rather than a fence is over 12000 miles long.

Of course it took the Chinese just a little bit longer to build the Great Wall than the Yanks did with the Mexican wall...;)

husaberg

8th May 2021, 21:13

Of course it took the Chinese just a little bit longer to build the Great Wall than the Yanks did with the Mexican wall...;)

Thats because the Chinese were not fly by nighters like the 4 year Trump, plus of course they built a wall rather than a few miles of fencing.......:bleh:

pritch

9th May 2021, 09:40

At 73 miles the Roman Emperor Hadrian probably built more new wall than Trump. Hadrian's wall had observation towers too so was probably much more effective as a barrier.

F5 Dave

9th May 2021, 10:03

Who had access to mechanised machinery?

husaberg

9th May 2021, 10:25

nerrrd

9th May 2021, 11:43

Who had access to mechanised machinery?

Who had access to slavery and forced labour?

husaberg

9th May 2021, 13:18

Who had access to slavery and forced labour?

Both
https://time.com/4465744/donald-trump-undocumented-workers/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/27/nyregion/trump-tower-illegal-immigrant-workers-union-settlement.html

scumdog

9th May 2021, 19:50

Who had access to slavery and forced labour?

And for generations.

FJRider

9th May 2021, 20:34

The Atlantic wall built in only a few years in WW2 was 6200 kilometers in length or 3852 miles (including the coastline of the British Channel Islands which Hitler captured in 1940). Most of that was fortified concrete rather than a fence. it also had a few guns and barracks and stuff

And on one June 6th ... the invasion passed through it. The Atlantic Wall was an extensive system of coastal defenses and fortifications ... rather than just a wall.

Trump would have hoped for his wall to be more successful.

TheDemonLord

9th May 2021, 21:20

"The discretionary request includes no additional funding for border wall construction and proposes the cancellation of prior-year balances that are unobligated at the end of 2021." It's a long read so I've saved you the effort of finding it - bottom of page 15 of the enclosure, under Department of Homeland Security heading.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/FY2022-Discretionary-Request.pdf

The point is not about the funding or about how much is going to built/not built.

The point is to show the hypocrisy of the Biden administration and their abject failure when it comes to illegal migration.

Trump wanted to build a wall - which was lambasted, for 4 years as being inneffective, silly etc.

And now Biden is essentially admitting that Walls do in fact work and they need to repair sections of it - a complete 180 in terms of policy narrative.

R650R

11th May 2021, 09:56

He better hurry up and build that wall....

Can't be bothered linking the vid as it's all over the news.....

"No one earning under $400,000 will pay any tax" 😂😂😂😂😂

sugilite

11th May 2021, 11:35

He better hurry up and build that wall....

Can't be bothered linking the vid as it's all over the news.....

"No one earning under $400,000 will pay any tax" 😂😂😂😂😂

Covfefe!!!

husaberg

11th May 2021, 13:35

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDswwwPWsAEBp39?format=jpg&name=small

pritch

14th May 2021, 12:54

The Russian hacker group having compromised the main fuel pipeline that serves the eastern United States prompting a surge of panic buying. The increase in sales led to gas stations runnng out. This is Biden's fault apparently. Although Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson think it's the Green New Deal.

Some of the panic buyers may not all be observng all safety precautions for the storage of gasoline. They self select as not being very bright, even if they did own an expensive vehicle.

R650R

14th May 2021, 14:06

The pipeline hack is likely another false flag event.

Even if the hack is real it’s only disabled the pricing network for pipeline company. The physical distribution network and pipe itself is fine, they just scared of giving away their product fir free.
They even threw in a bridge closure to scam the sheeple.

But yes will be ample cases of stupid fuel storage options.... wonder what the best hashtag to follow will be lol

pritch

14th May 2021, 19:59

The pipeline hack is likely another false flag event.l

"Another false flag event"? Pray tell, could you name a few false flag events?

sugilite

15th May 2021, 09:20

TheDemonLord

16th May 2021, 12:18

This is Biden's fault apparently.

The repeal of various Trump policies that made the US Energy self-sufficient is entirely Biden's fault.

And when a key piece of infrastructure is attacked, turns out that has a domino effect, which is also Biden's fault.

But don't worry - in N+1 years, the Green New Deal with be generating all these 'new' jobs...

R650R

18th May 2021, 11:10

https://youtu.be/8BjhYLUmxWQ

R650R

20th May 2021, 18:04

https://youtu.be/lJqSt9x7wjI

husaberg

20th May 2021, 18:51

https://i.redd.it/qwvp8kld54y51.jpghttps://i.imgflip.com/4lls0u.jpg

https://twitter.com/i/status/1301913914922299393

R650R

24th May 2021, 16:59

Hey folks it’s a communist regime you must clap for your leader even if he insults you...

https://youtu.be/XaoeJpstjxk

R650R

24th May 2021, 17:07

https://youtu.be/4VkI5AnAsjc

Viking01

24th May 2021, 17:35

First:

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/03/31/critics-warn-biden-infrastructure-plan-falls-woefully-short-climate-crisis

and now this (and the fight hadn't even started):

https://truthout.org/articles/progressives-slam-biden-for-slashing-his-own-infrastructure-plan-by-600-billion/

husaberg

24th May 2021, 17:51

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MyLwAokINc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEpwkaJQh1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSDj9E2dgWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv9sH5ptgRA

husaberg

24th May 2021, 17:59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DREO6cwbGeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u_hs6HlfmY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5HHZI_pe3w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFjY1EPuNg

scumdog

24th May 2021, 21:06

Just wait until all the 'munbling Joe Biden' jokes come out!:shifty:

pritch

24th May 2021, 21:41

Hey folks it’s a communist regime you must clap for your leader even if he insults you...

That's Murdoch news. It'll rot your brain.

R650R

30th May 2021, 16:40

https://youtu.be/6Q0B7WkNbAs

husaberg

30th May 2021, 20:46

https://youtu.be/6Q0B7WkNbAs

Total Staffed Beds in All U.S. Hospitals 2020
919,559

In 2020, as many as 5.8 million Americans were living with Alzheimer's disease. Younger people may get Alzheimer's disease, but it is less common. The number of people living with the disease doubles every 5 years beyond age 65. This number is projected to nearly triple to 14 million people by 2060.

has he spouted rubish about covid 19 being cured by anti malaria drugs

Nothing to do with Trump.
If you widened your reading circle to sources outside the mainstream media machine you’ll find plenty of independant sources were saying hey we experimented with this and had some success.

Hydroxyclhoriquine has been around since 60’s been used years officially as anti malaria drug and its super cheap.

This statement has been fact checked and found to be true.

R650R

1st June 2021, 16:59

So many vids about the Biden regime now investigating the “ outrageous” wuhan lab conspiracy its hard to choose which one to post 😂😂😂😂😂

husaberg

6th June 2021, 21:21

349179...................

Laava

6th June 2021, 22:43

So many vids about the Biden regime now investigating the “ outrageous” wuhan lab conspiracy its hard to choose which one to post 😂😂😂😂😂
Yep, american fuckwits, no surprises there...

mashman

6th June 2021, 23:42

So many vids about the Biden regime now investigating the “ outrageous” wuhan lab conspiracy its hard to choose which one to post 😂😂😂😂😂

Will anyone on twitter will be able to see them :killingme...

R650R

8th June 2021, 10:46

Watch it and weep, the gold is at 3min for those short on time. Could you imagine the hysteria if they had Trump saying anything close to this on camera!

https://youtu.be/GCMOjIjBKWE

sugilite

8th June 2021, 11:21

Watch it and weep, the gold is at 3min for those short on time. Could you imagine the hysteria if they had Trump saying anything close to this on camera!

I remember the one speech Trump made that sounded remotely "competently leaderish" and the right wing press gushed for days on how he sounded "presidential".

R650R

8th June 2021, 21:44

https://youtu.be/eL9dcwgG-2g

sugilite

9th June 2021, 08:47

I'm convinced! His invisible best friend definitely is the one true invisible best friend - amen :laugh:

https://youtu.be/eL9dcwgG-2g

F5 Dave

9th June 2021, 13:14

I'm not going to click on that link for embarrassment that some algorithm thinks I'm a banjo pickin moron.

I know they're only 0s and 1s, therefore 'somewhat ' imaginary but , you know?

R650R

9th June 2021, 15:40

I'm not going to click on that link for embarrassment that some algorithm thinks I'm a banjo pickin moron.

I know they're only 0s and 1s, therefore 'somewhat ' imaginary but , you know?

TOO late uncle google already seen you pause and look at link.

You be getting banjo, prayer mats and Polaris ATVS in your ad feed lol 😂

Viking01

2nd July 2021, 16:26

I see that a US Domestic Terrorism strategy document (not a Bill) has just been proposed.

https://off-guardian.org/2021/07/01/inside-bidens-new-domestic-terrorism-strategy/

It's taken them long enough, given how quickly the Patriot Act (post 911) was written, socialised and finally voted on.

I'd been expecting a Bill to be tabled the last few months (post Jan 6). I guess that TPTB must just have been busy working out how best to indict Don. On that subject, it appears that they have decided to adopt the "Al Capone" approach.

F5 Dave

2nd July 2021, 20:54

If the shoe fits. . .

TheDemonLord

5th July 2021, 08:49

mashman

6th July 2021, 10:27

I knew I'd seen it somewhere. The early days of the creation of the Democratic Party

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

TheDemonLord

6th July 2021, 10:33

i knew i'd seen it somewhere. The early days of the creation of the democratic party

...
...
....

Splitter!

sugilite

18th July 2021, 09:56

While Biden could be doing a better job in several areas, watching this speech makes those trumkins that say he has dementia etc look like the idiots they are. In this speech, he is clear, concise, presidential, minimal rambling. In short the polar opposite of the last turd that held the job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0k0GtREVU8

TheDemonLord

19th July 2021, 10:24

sugilite

19th July 2021, 10:30

^ Doh, you are correct, should be this one....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0k0GtREVU8

R650R

17th August 2021, 11:27

Kabul airport.... and the rest of the country.... well done Jo

Fall of Saigon on steroids thanks to weak leadership all that hard work andcdead soldiers for nothing.....

mashman

17th August 2021, 12:08

Kabul airport.... and the rest of the country.... well done Jo

Fall of Saigon on steroids thanks to weak leadership all that hard work andcdead soldiers for nothing.....

Jo? Isn't he just doing what deal doer Don dealed?

neels

17th August 2021, 12:44

Jo? Isn't he just doing what deal doer Don dealed?

Absolutely not.

If the web page announcing it has been deleted, then it never happened.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/gop-removes-page-hailing-trump-taliban-deal-2021-8

Very ministry of truth.....

R650R

17th August 2021, 12:45

Not even one minute into press conference Sleepy Joe says “We were never there for nation building, we were never there to build a unified democracy”

Holy hell “our mission was to destroy al queda and to prevent them having a base of operation”

And we done that by leaving a country in complete disarray run by warlords and not even saving those that helped us....

F5 Dave

17th August 2021, 12:50

America wanted to be world police. 20 years. Can't change a place lie that. Maybe it's part of God's plan to expand Islam?

mashman

17th August 2021, 13:30

Absolutely not.

If the web page announcing it has been deleted, then it never happened.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/gop-removes-page-hailing-trump-taliban-deal-2021-8

Very ministry of truth.....

ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaa... nice find!

Not sure if they're waiting on a perfectly crafted response or not, but the Dems finally have a reason to blame Trump for something, and............. (it was popular for Trump, therefore it is expedient for the Dems, springs to mind for some reason... that and the bloodshed required to retake what has just vanished likely wouldn't be popular in the u.s.). Meh, silly games.

R650R

17th August 2021, 13:59

Actually the next ten mins of Biden’s speech was surprisingly good, sounded like Trump had written it going on about how many more $ and lives were we willingly risk for people who won’t fight for themselves.
Watch this space though likely Biden will sleep walk us into ww4 with Ukraine vs Russia and Taiwan vs China. He’d talk a lot about threats in the other parts of the world....

husaberg

17th August 2021, 18:15

Kabul airport.... and the rest of the country.... well done Jo

Fall of Saigon on steroids thanks to weak leadership all that hard work andcdead soldiers for nothing.....

Are you really baming Joe Biden for Trumps policy.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E86LhfaWUAM8mKg?format=jpg

Roughly 2,500 troops remained in Afghanistan when Biden took office. The president in April said he would follow through on the planned withdrawal, but he moved the end date back to Sept. 11, and later shifted it to Aug. 31, citing logistical considerations.

“I wish Joe Biden wouldn't use September 11 as the date to withdraw our troops from Afghanistan, for two reasons,” Trump said in a statement at the time. “First, we can and should get out earlier. Nineteen years is enough, in fact, far too much and way too long.”

But Trump, who spent years advocating for an end to “endless wars,” has used the burgeoning crisis under Biden’s watch to pummel his successor. Trump has released more than a dozen statements in recent days on the subject of Afghanistan and attempted to fundraise off the issue, insisting the U.S. withdrawal would have been more orderly if he were still in office.

First, the “peace accord” that Trump’s emissaries signed with the Taliban in February 2020, in Doha, imposed only a few conditions—and the Taliban are violating none of them at the moment. The Taliban merely agreed not to allow any “individuals or groups, including al-Qaida, to use the soil of Afghanistan to threaten the security of the United States and its allies.” The accord did not bar the Taliban from fighting Afghan government troops or from capturing Afghan provinces on its own.

Trump, who just months ago suggested Biden was not getting out of Afghanistan fast enough

nerrrd

17th August 2021, 19:27

What a shit show, but I find it hard to believe the remaining 2,500 US troops were single handedly holding the country together.

It’s the locals they’ve been giving the billions of dollars in cash and weaponry to that have basically given the country over to the Taliban, for reasons which I guess only they would know.

Every American President since Bush owes Biden a drink for finally grasping the nettle. And hopefully every President after him will have learned a very, very strong lesson.

Oh, and whoever was orgainsing the US withdrawal on the ground has proven they haven’t got a clue, which makes me wonder how good all those ‘interpreters’ they’re evacuating really were.

pete376403

17th August 2021, 21:15

Absolutely not.

If the web page announcing it has been deleted, then it never happened.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/gop-removes-page-hailing-trump-taliban-deal-2021-8

Very ministry of truth.....

The Wayback machine exists for this very reason:

https://web.archive.org/web/20210615230810/https://gop.com/president-trump-is-bringing-peace-to-the-middle-east-rsr/

pzkpfw

18th August 2021, 11:36

pritch

18th August 2021, 12:33

Assuming that the foreign troops were not there forever they were always going to leave at some point. Twenty years seems like a round figure. The implementation of the withdrawal, however, is a complete shit show to rank with the Suez crisis and the fall of Saigon. And that is on Biden. At least he has acknowledged that the buck stops with him. Something his predecessor never would have done. Here's hoping the CIA and US diplomats didn't exhibit the same abject cowardice that they did in Saigon. Hopefully they took their records with them this time and didn't just leave them to the enemy to identify all those people who had assisted the US.

The speed of the Taliban advance surprised everybody. Whether Biden was not advised of this possibility, or he was advised but chose to ignore it, should become clear in the fullness of time. Michael McFaul a former ambassador to Russia, the same one that Trump was considering handing over to Putin, (yeah really) has suggested we'll need to wait for the publication of the various memoirs to know. Corruption is rife in Afghanistan and some troops had not been paid for months. Others just had to skip across the nearby border to be safe. The capitulation was so sudden and complete though, that it's almost as if that was the plan.

Spare a thought for Kiwi veterans of Afghanistan, they may be concerned for the welfare of people they knew and worked with, and who have been trapped by the rapid Taliban advance. The US govenment was far too slow to assist their people, partly due to the Dept of Homeland Security wanting to do thorough checks on people, and partly due to Biden being asleep at the wheel in this instance. The NZ response was similar. The day after the Taliban took over Bamiyan province Cabinet decided to make plans to help. Currently we can't even get a 'plane into Kabul, so their plans are likely moot.

pritch

20th August 2021, 11:37

News items suggest that Biden was warned of the dramatic collapse of the Afghan forces but chose not to act on the information. Reportedly the CIA had raised the possibility, and a dozen diplomats had penned a dissent memo. The memo is a format for diplomats to contact the government if they feel they are not being heard through reular channels.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/19/politics/us-diplomats-afghanistan-catastrophe-warning/index.html

husaberg

20th August 2021, 17:52

pritch

21st August 2021, 09:34

Problem is is Biden was stuck with the deal Trump made and signed on behalf of the USA.

Yeah, but his implementation of the deal was pathetic.

I was listening to a podcast yesterday. A guy who had worked on the staff of senators was saying it did not pay to be a dissenting voice at meetings. Being the lone pessimist can have you cast into career oblivion. He said he has never worked with Biden and has no idea how he runs a meeting, but at such meetings there is pressure to be a "team player." If the prognosis is obviously rosy there is a tendency for all present to agree anyway.

Even so, we now know that the White House was warned their projections were unrealistic.

Another podcast last night contained an interview with the Inspector general of the US Afghanistan effort. The Inspectors General are independent of the department or operation they are attached to, their job is to watch for corruption or waste. He spoke of some transport aircraft that were purchased by the US for the Afghan Air Force for $450,000,000. There were a lot of problems, there were no spares, he rated the aircraft "death traps". They could not be flown operationally, they were sold for scrap for $30,000. Mind boggling.

husaberg

21st August 2021, 12:58

Yeah, but his implementation of the deal was pathetic.

I was listening to a podcast yesterday. A guy who had worked on the staff of senators was saying it did not pay to be a dissenting voice at meetings. Being the lone pessimist can have you cast into career oblivion. He said he has never worked with Biden and has no idea how he runs a meeting, but at such meetings there is pressure to be a "team player." If the prognosis is obviously rosy there is a tendency for all present to agree anyway.

Even so, we now know that the White House was warned their projections were unrealistic.

Another podcast last night contained an interview with the Inspector general of the US Afghanistan effort. The Inspectors General are independent of the department or operation they are attached to, their job is to watch for corruption or waste. He spoke of some transport aircraft that were purchased by the US for the Afghan Air Force for $450,000,000. There were a lot of problems, there were no spares, he rated the aircraft "death traps". They could not be flown operationally, they were sold for scrap for $30,000. Mind boggling.

From what i read they had far more troops in Afghanistan and were there longer then the plan allowed for. I really feel for the afghani's as they get f-over yet again.
they were f-ed over the same as the Kurds twice now.
that sort of aid deals are common. the South Vietnamese army was given nearly every A1 Spad the US had millions of M16s a heap of stuff they never had any ability to use.
NZ benefited greatly after WW2 as we got all the GMC tracks for a pittance as they were costly to send back to the USA.
there is a lot of US govt contractor corruption as well on top of that.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/halliburton-company-got-395billion-iraq-2013-3?r=US&IR=T

pete376403

21st August 2021, 17:17

NZ benefited greatly after WW2 as we got all the GMC tracks for a pittance as they were costly to send back to the USA.

I remember seeing a place down Seaview Road, over the road from the Ford plant with heaps of WWII ex-army trucks for sale. (fuck I'm old)

F5 Dave

21st August 2021, 18:26

Religion. Isn't it great?

Women are 50% of this planet's humans. But let's treat them like shit. Because God.

Fuck gods arse hard.

Swoop

21st August 2021, 19:10

Religion. Isn't it great?

Women are 50% of this planet's humans. But let's treat them like shit. Because God.

Fuck gods arse hard.

It is quite impressive to see the amount of feminists' and "woke" people getting on an aircraft and heading to Afganistan to put the tallitubbies in their place!

Did anyone else see the talitubbie "commander" pissing himself with laughter when a female journalist asked about women / voting / having a place in the new Afghan government?
How deluded are these people?

F5 Dave

21st August 2021, 21:11

So you are saying that because they are so insencend with the zealots cunty behavior that they deserve to be murdered for their conviction?

Haha very funny.

Let's kick babies heads off.

TheDemonLord

23rd August 2021, 09:53

So you are saying that because they are so insencend with the zealots cunty behavior that they deserve to be murdered for their conviction?

No, we are saying that people should fight for what they believe in, rather than complain that someone else isn't fighting on their behalf.

Especially when they are strong independent Women that don't need no man.

Swoop

26th August 2021, 16:29

No, we are saying that people should fight for what they believe in, rather than complain that someone else isn't fighting on their behalf.

Especially when they are strong independent Women that don't need no man.

There was recent footage of an Afghan woman stating "why won't anyone come and fight the taliban for us!". Fuck's sake, there has been 20yrs of "the world" doing this for you and now you are complaining! Dopey bint.

pete376403

26th August 2021, 17:28

There was recent footage of an Afghan woman stating "why won't anyone come and fight the taliban for us!". Fuck's sake, there has been 20yrs of "the world" doing this for you and now you are complaining! Dopey bint.

Whoever the "West" was fighting for in Afghanistan, it wasn't the local people. The Russians did more for the Afghan people in their short tenure, building housing, schools,water systems, roads, etc.
The "West" covertly then openly supported the Northern Alliance against the Socialist government because, communists, and among other things, wanted a route for the pipeline to get oil from the 'stans to the Arabian sea.

F5 Dave

26th August 2021, 18:21

The Ruskies did leave the odd mine though. That wasn't so helpful.

husaberg

26th August 2021, 18:31

Viking01

27th August 2021, 14:42

Shit most of the reason the US was supporting the Mujahideen rebels was they were fighting the USSR.
Same as with the korean and the Vietnamese wars aad practicallally every other proxy war since WW2.
The oddest ones were the ones in the 1970s where you have 10,000s of Cuban troops in Africa.

Ogaden War
Shaba I
Mozambican Civil War
Yemenite War of 1979
Ethiopian–Somali Border War
South African Border War

Afternoon.

Interesting to see you mention Cuba in your post.

Of the wars you listed, several had a common link back to a single event: the collapse of the Portuguese colonial empire (following the Carnation coup in Portugal in 1974). Both Angola and Mozambique were Portuguese colonies in Africa (while Namibia is a neighbour of Angola).

At this point, a map is probably useful for reference:

https://www.britannica.com/place/AfricaBackground

The other Portuguese colony worthy of mention - which also involved fighting – but a little closer to home - is Portuguese Timor or East Timor, now known as Timor Leste.

Short Background
You’ll know the West (effectively the US) and the USSR were facing off around the world post WW2, with the USSR supporting the establishment of socialist states. Apart from the Cold War in Europe, this activity was occurring largely both in the Middle East and in Africa.

In the case of Cuba (a consequence of the 1961 missile crisis), the USSR and Cuba effectively made an agreement - by which the USSR would support Cuba both economically and militarily, while in return Cuba would act as a proxy for the USSR in some of these East-West conflicts.

Not only would Cuba supply troops for fighting, but more importantly, it would also supply other staff (such as doctors, teachers and engineers) to help support social development in those nations.

Portuguese Carnation Coup 1974 and end of Portuguese Empire
This occurred April 1974, and a direct consequence was that Portugal decided to "fold up its colonial picnic table" and go home. East-west competition soon commenced in its former colonies, and because of their geo-strategic locations and their large mineral wealth, "civil wars" soon erupted in both Angola (1975-2002) and Mozambique (1976-1992).

There are Wikis available online that give plenty of detail on each of the conflicts.

Angola
This was basically fought between the Marxist MPLA against UNITA (South Africa – who were acting as a US proxy) and the FLNA (Zaire, with US support). Fought over oil, bauxite, gold, uranium and diamonds, as well as a useful port location on the west African coast (for both military and oil servicing purposes).

https://oilfieldafricareview.com/category/continental-news/south-africa/angola/

In the case of Angola, there was an overlap with the Namibian War of Independence (Bush War) that you mentioned. This was principally due to South African forces straying over the northern border of Namibia into Angola and engaging the MPLA (and the Cubans).

Mozambique
This is a similar conflict, fought by an indigenous Marxist entity (FRELIMO), for independence and over resources such as bauxite, gold, copper and tantalum. Mozambique also offered basing opportunities on the eastern African coast (Indian Ocean).

Timor Leste
While this conflict did not involve the Cubans, it is one (involving a former Portuguese colony) that occurred in our geographic “neck of the woods”. I mention it only because of the participation and the behaviour of our US and Australian allies, in support of Indonesia.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/john-pilger-how-australia-betrayed-east-timor

Anyone who has read a little history of this conflict will be aware why Indonesia was involved in Timor.

And indeed of Indonesia’s own bloody internal war earlier in 1965 (where the socialist Sukarno administration was violently overthrown by Suharto, with CIA support). For most, lost against the back-drop of the Vietnam War.

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/10/19/the-indonesia-massacres-historic-message/

As a separate aside, it’s also interesting in that Cuba has been involved with the end of another empire: the Spanish colonial empire. And the start of another empire. A few links to show how Spain was dispossessed of its colonies, and how some happened to end up under US control.

Cuba
https://libertarianinstitute.org/articles/remember-the-maine/

Hawaii
https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/06/15/the-day-the-us-became-an-empire/

Philippines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War

Guam
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-united-states-ended-up-with-guam

Back to Cuba
https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-war-cuba-economic-embargo-biological-warfare-us-backed-terrorism/5751665

Perhaps it's no wonder there is no love lost between US and Cuban administrations, and why the US Cuban embargo has lasted 60 years.

TheDemonLord

28th August 2021, 14:50

jasonu

28th August 2021, 15:02

Never in my wildest dreams to I imagine him to be this incompetent.

Plenty did.

pete376403

28th August 2021, 15:58

Viking01

28th August 2021, 16:16

Congrats Biden - helping the Taliban to be the 6th most powerful military on the Planet.

$85,000,000,000 worth of Military equipment.

I mean, I expected Biden to be a bad President.

Never in my wildest dreams to I imagine him to be this incompetent.

And here's your friendly reminder: Didn't happen under Trump.

TDL,
Look, don't fret about it. All the equipment has been paid for. The weapons companies will not have missed out from being reimbursed, and the sharemarket (well, the Dow Jones Industrial) hasn't been obviously affected. That's what's important.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1358/dow-jones-industrial-average-last-10-years

And as the following article commented, it's not all doom and gloom:

1. They don't have experienced pilots able to fly the aircraft.
2. They won't have access to supplies of spare parts for maintenance.
3. The US equipment breaks down so often that the equipment will effectively be of little long term use.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/afghanistan-us-military-weapons-withdrawal-b1906175.html

Personally, I don't think the Taliban will get anywhere near as much as the equipment original cost value on the second-hand market.

Besides, given that the US had planned to do a phased withdrawal from Afghanistan in the near future, surely this is not Joe Biden's fault ? Poor old Joe probably has enough trouble just remembering his name.

Surely this is the fault of the US military and intelligence community, who should have been planning and performing the progressive removal of their most valuable equipment, in line with their planned withdrawal ? Or was the Taliban sandal brigade just too quick for them, and caught them on the hop ? Just like those rice-propelled paddy farmers in Vietnam in 75 ?

husaberg

28th August 2021, 16:25

So you are taking a line like this " The United States spent an estimated $83 billion training and equipping Afghan security forces over the last two decades" and suggesting it was all left in a big pile for the Taliban to come along and pick and chose? Thats pretty dishonest, even by your standards. Did you miss the bit about "the last two decades"? That covers a number of Presidents
How much of this is expended munitions, you know, one time use? How much of this is payments to contractors for "service rendered" (ie training - can the taliban re-use "training"?) How much of this military equipment is at inflated defence contractor prices? eg the $10,000 toilet cover -https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html

Trumps border wall which only built 15 miles of "new" fencing was over 8 billion.

F5 Dave

28th August 2021, 21:49

TheDemonLord

29th August 2021, 09:35

So you are taking a line like this " The United States spent an estimated $83 billion training and equipping Afghan security forces over the last two decades" and suggesting it was all left in a big pile for the Taliban to come along and pick and chose? Thats pretty dishonest, even by your standards. Did you miss the bit about "the last two decades"? That covers a number of Presidents
How much of this is expended munitions, you know, one time use? How much of this is payments to contractors for "service rendered" (ie training - can the taliban re-use "training"?) How much of this military equipment is at inflated defence contractor prices? eg the $10,000 toilet cover -https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/capitalbusiness/the-air-forces-10000-toilet-cover/2018/07/14/c33d325a-85df-11e8-8f6c-46cb43e3f306_story.html

That's the quote from US Congressman and former reservist: Jim Banks.

Can you re-use Training? I dunno, can people taught by teachers become teachers? Let me know the answer...

But even if we go with a lower figure: a Measley $10 Billion (as others have estimated, likely taking into account depreciation) - it's still, by a long shot, the most spectacular failure I can remember in living Memory.

TheDemonLord

29th August 2021, 09:39

I don't think anyone here likes Biden, but you can't blame him for being the last in line of 20 years of never should have fuking been there.

But jesus's strap-on (I got away for that before) trump was so fuking useless he couldn't tell his front bottom from his rear bottom.

You can't blame him?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

He's literally the commander in chief of the Armed Forces! I mean, Truman "The Buck stops here"

I could accept that a withdrawal might get messy, but this wasn't a withdrawal, this was an absolute capitulation and a failure of unprecedented proportions - Even the British Press have commented on how Biden absolutely screwed their biggest and most fervent ally by not consulting with them.

And at this point any comments on Trump's competency or questions raised about it therein - I'm just gonna point to this and say:

Making the Terrorist organization known as the Taliban, the 6th most powerful Military on earth - didn't happen under Trump's watch.

TheDemonLord

29th August 2021, 09:44

TDL,
And as the following article commented, it's not all doom and gloom:

1. They don't have experienced pilots able to fly the aircraft.
2. They won't have access to supplies of spare parts for maintenance.
3. The US equipment breaks down so often that the equipment will effectively be of little long term use.

Given their penchant for Suicide Bombers, they only need it to work Once....

Personally, I don't think the Taliban will get anywhere near as much as the equipment original cost value on the second-hand market.

It's not the cash value that concerns me, nor is it the Taliban having the Dollar value, it's the clientele that they are likely to sell the arms to that I have a issue with.

Besides, given that the US had planned to do a phased withdrawal from Afghanistan in the near future, surely this is not Joe Biden's fault ? Poor old Joe probably has enough trouble just remembering his name.

I've been loving all the train wreck 'press conferences' that Biden has been giving, I've seen more convincing performances (with more audience interaction) in a Christmas Panto. Remember all those people who said Trump never sounded Presidential - Ladies and Gentleman, I give you: Joe, you-know-the-thing-uh....

Surely this is the fault of the US military and intelligence community, who should have been planning and performing the progressive removal of their most valuable equipment, in line with their planned withdrawal ? Or was the Taliban sandal brigade just too quick for them, and caught them on the hop ? Just like those rice-propelled paddy farmers in Vietnam in 75 ?

Every current Military, ex-military and Military enthusiast channel that I follow have all said the exact same thing - I don't think this was a Military decision, I believe it was purely political.

Viking01

29th August 2021, 09:47

But even if we go with a lower figure: a Measley $10 Billion (as others have estimated, likely taking into account depreciation) - it's still, by a long shot, the most spectacular failure I can remember in living Memory.

Not even close. ;)

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2021/07/the-federal-reserve-has-radically-changed-from-a-central-bank-to-a-bailout-kingpin-americans-just-havent-paid-attention-until-tonight/

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2021/08/u-s-banking-system-has-a-168-trillion-nightmare-looming-it-was-ignored-in-written-testimony-for-todays-senate-banking-hearing/

pritch

29th August 2021, 10:29

And indeed of Indonesia’s own bloody internal war earlier in 1965 (where the socialist Sukarno administration was violently overthrown by Suharto, with CIA support). For most, lost against the back-drop of the Vietnam War.

Lost for most perhaps, but not for all. New Zealanders were involved in the region, including in Sarawak to protect the border against incursions by Indonesian troops. I would question the year Suharto overthrew Sukarno. In 1965 and 66 Sukarno was still in control, Suharto assumed power in 1967.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plaman_Mapu

In 1966 D Coy 1RNZIR were based in Plaman Mapu.

Viking01

29th August 2021, 11:04

Lost for most perhaps, but not for all. New Zealanders were involved in the region, including in Sarawak to protect the border against incursions by Indonesian troops. I would question the year Suharto overthrew Sukarno. In 1965 and 66 Sukarno was still in control, Suharto assumed power in 1967.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plaman_Mapu

In 1966 D Coy 1RNZIR were based in Plaman Mapu.

Fair point. Happy to concede.

I was simply intending to point out that the civilian killings started in 1965, even though ultimately the overthrow of Sukarno occurred some time later (in 1967).

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/10/18/documents-reveal-active-us-support-indonesian-mass-killings-1960s
https://sputniknews.com/asia/201710181058357817-indonesia-communist-massacre-us-involvement/

[Edit]
https://jacobinmag.com/2019/01/unmasked-graves-review-indonesia-genocide-communist-party

I was originally going to include a link about the related US-initiated "carve-up" of Indonesian resources that occurred around the same time (e.g. allocation of minerals such as gold, copper, nickel) between various major western mining companies), but I couldn't find the articles or links I had in mind.

[Edit]
https://orientalreview.org/2018/07/18/not-radical-islam-but-gold-fever-threatens-indonesias-stability/

https://www.monbiot.com/2018/11/23/slavemasters/

Viking01

29th August 2021, 11:20

Given their penchant for Suicide Bombers, they only need it to work Once....
...
It's not the cash value that concerns me, nor is it the Taliban having the Dollar value, it's the clientele that they are likely to sell the arms to that I have a issue with.
...
I've been loving all the train wreck 'press conferences' that Biden has been giving, I've seen more convincing performances (with more audience interaction) in a Christmas Panto. Remember all those people who said Trump never sounded Presidential - Ladies and Gentleman, I give you: Joe, you-know-the-thing-uh....
...
Every current Military, ex-military and Military enthusiast channel that I follow have all said the exact same thing - I don't think this was a Military decision, I believe it was purely political.

Morning.
Thanks for the reply, as always.

1. Suicide Bombers
Not quite sure I see the point you're making, especially when responsibility for the latest Kabul bombing has been claimed by / attributed to ISIS - KP. If you scroll down to the section sub-heading within the following link:

What we know so far – IS claims responsibility for attack
"The Islamic State group’s affiliate in Afghanistan has claimed responsibility for the attack outside the Kabul airport."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/26/afghanistan-live-news-updates-evacuation-refugees-taliban-kabul-airport-latest?page=with:block-6128135b8f080ef844e76c7e#block-6128135b8f080ef844e76c7e

2. Buyers of US Arms Seized by the Taliban
So, just who are some of "these clientele" that the Taliban might sell US weapons to ?

Is it some-one to whom the (i) US (ii) UK (iii) France or Germany (iv) Russia, haven't been selling weapons to the last 10+ years ?

Otherwise, Yes, I'd be mighty upset that some-one was trying to "move in on my patch" and flog off "second hand weapons" that they'd suddenly acquired. Even worse when they didn't offer supply of maintenance spares.

What's the business of "selling armaments globally" coming to ? Always buy from a reputable buyer, I say.

3. Joe Biden Press Conferences
I'm not defending either Red or Blue teams, their front-men or their sponsors.

Though if I recall rightly, Trump did attempt to initiate US troop draw-downs during his term, and the US military administration effectively ignored his direction to do so. [ Just as well John Bolton and Mike Pompeo were there to keep things in hand, and Trump on the "straight-and-narrow".]

4. Decision to Exit Afghanistan
Political vs Military Decision - Again, I don't quite see your point.

You're likely quite right in your assertion, in that the decision to exit Afghanistan was ultimately a political decision.

But surely the same could be said about the decision to invade Afghanistan in the first place.

If I recall rightly, Bush Junior used the following as the justification in calling for the Afghan invasion in the first place:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ40/html/PLAW-107publ40.htm

And that the same piece of legislation has effectively been used by both Red and Blue administrations since, to justify all manner of US government actions subsequent (e.g use of Guantanamo Bay to hold detainees; eaves-dropping on communications of US citizens, etc).

As for whether the US military "made the decision" (or "agreed with the decision"). What is the relevance ?

Or are you telling me that the US military (and its backers) now make the decision for the US to wage (or cease making) war external to the US ? Outside of the US Senate ?

Cheers, Viking

pritch

29th August 2021, 12:06

pritch

29th August 2021, 12:15

Given their penchant for Suicide Bombers, they only need it to work Once....

Was reading somewhere, who knows where, that Afghans don't like suicide bombers. They are predominantly Sunni muslims, but within that, their particular Afghan flavour of Islam frowns on suicide. It was considered therefore that the Taliban were unlikely to resort to suicide veats etc.

"Arabs" resident in the country may be less reluctant.

Viking01

29th August 2021, 14:15

One other thing. It was Mr Pliger I think mentioned the IMF/World Bank. When Australia and NZ sent troops to Timor the Indonesian plan was to wait until they landed then bomb them into oblivion. It was apparently the IMF/World Bank that got them to drop that plan.

Did hear an interesting story from a former NZ Police officer who worked in Timor. His job involved teaching locals about identifying bodies and processing documentation of same. There was a problem, albeit a good one, there were very few bodies available at the time.

Then Kiwi soldier Private Manning was killed by the Indonesians. A short time later Helen Clarke arrived on an official visit to Timor with an NZSAS escort. After her visit she left. Without her escort. Shortly thereafter a somewhat continuous stream of bodies started arriving for processing aiding the Police officer's training programme immensely.

Afternoon.

Interesting that you mention both John Pilger and the IMF / World Bank.

John Pilger
His book "Distant Voices" dedicated a whole chapter to East Timor. In the book, he mentions Australia's Gough Whitlam meeting with Suharto in Java in 1974, and Australian officials effectively "green-lighting" an invasion of East Timor. Not that they had any right to do so.

IMF and World Bank
I had to nod my head as I read the comments in your post. Quite believable.

When you're fronting a lending institution like the IMF (or WB), it's difficult to justify (publicly visible) lending to persons or institutions with a poor reputation. Whether it be violation of human rights (e.g. civilian deaths by militia operated by dictators) or the environment (e.g. poisoning of rivers - waterways and fish - by mining companies).

But it's even harder to justify when your "most valued clients" are often the worst offenders. Hence the situation the IMF and World Bank find themselves in (not that it stops them lending):

https://www.globalresearch.ca/enforcing-us-exploitation-imf-world-bank/5750683

If there is one book I'd recommend many read, it is "Pillaging the World - The History and Politics of the IMF" by Ernst Wolff. Only 200 pages, good concise reading, and you get a useful history lesson from 1945 through to about 2018. While I have a hard copy edition, it is also available in PDF form online:

https://www.perlego.com/book/1035872/pillaging-the-world-the-history-and-politics-of-the-imf-pdf

Investigative Journalists
Just as an aside, there is one thing I feel our Pacific neighbour across the Tasman does do well, and that is to produce good investigative journalists (though some reading this will disagree).

Their ability to find and to search through some of the political cesspools around the world, tell a story of the various shady dealings, and identify which politicians and financiers had their little fingers involved.

The following article was originally available on the American Herald Tribune (until it had its domain seized by the US Government a year or two back - so much for US freedom of the press), but the article has since been re-issued on Russia Insider:

https://russia-insider.com/en/three-extraordinary-australian-journalists-pilger-burchett-and-assange/ri28270

The name Wilfred Burchett will not be familiar to most, but he was the first western investigative journalist to get into Japan immediately after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Pilger and Assange have literally followed in his shoe steps.

Burchett smuggled himself into Japan and travelled to Hiroshima (unknown to the US military authorities), and managed to write and smuggle out articles on the effects of the atomic bombing (deaths and radiation sickness) - despite the best efforts of US authorities to prevent that happening.

He also investigated and wrote about the Korean War and the Vietnam War. Needless to say, the US authorities were again extremely unhappy about his having done so. And if you think that Assange's home government (Australia) has been less than supportive of him and his endeavours, well, it was tough times for Burchett as well. His auto-biography can be found online.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224959.Memoirs_of_a_Rebel_Journalist

[When I last searched for a copy online several years ago, only a few hard copies were available (starting at $300), but I now see that paper-back copies are available.]

husaberg

29th August 2021, 16:31

Viking01

29th August 2021, 18:01

The poor Timorese people have had a rough deal, from the time that the Indonesians were given the "green light" to invade western Timor in 1975, through to even current day.

East Timor

Our Australians friends - having first agreed to the above - obviously decided in the interim (due to oil and gas discoveries in the Timor Sea) that "independence for the east Timorese" was beneficial to Australia.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/politics/2012/04/john-pilger-east-timor-%E2%80%93-lesson-why-poorest-threaten-powerful

So while East Timor secured independence in 1999, Australia was well positioned to try and secure the "lions share" of access to such oil and gas reserves.

Not only did Australia delay finalising agreement on sea boundaries, they were able to extract reserves from "their side of the final boundary line" in the interim:

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/john-pilger-how-australia-betrayed-east-timor
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4487788.stm

Sadly, there were also some internal political disagreements in East Timor post the 2005 Timor Sea Agreement, which delayed new development (apart from a lack of capital for financing new infrastructure).

https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2017/11/04/the-timor-sea-agreement-is-in-hot-water/

But the World Bank is ever confident:

https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/timor-leste/overview

West Timor
Apart from extracting mineral wealth from West Timor, Indonesia has exercised a transfer of Indonesian people to West Timor, effectively rendering the indigenous West Timorese as a minority in their own country (state):

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/is-west-papua-australia-new-timor-leste

TheDemonLord

29th August 2021, 19:41

Morning.
Thanks for the reply, as always.

1. Suicide Bombers
Not quite sure I see the point you're making, especially when responsibility for the latest Kabul bombing has been claimed by / attributed to ISIS - KP. If you scroll down to the section sub-heading within the following link:

What we know so far – IS claims responsibility for attack
"The Islamic State group’s affiliate in Afghanistan has claimed responsibility for the attack outside the Kabul airport."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/26/afghanistan-live-news-updates-evacuation-refugees-taliban-kabul-airport-latest?page=with:block-6128135b8f080ef844e76c7e#block-6128135b8f080ef844e76c7e

Not that specific Attack - More a generalized 'let's assume there are some Islamic Fundamentalists with an Axe to grind against the US and a belief that Matyrdom will grant them 77 Virgins' - A Couple of Blackhawk helicopters on a one-way attack, for example, could do some serious Damage and with a range that the Taliban previously didn't have.

2. Buyers of US Arms Seized by the Taliban
So, just who are some of "these clientele" that the Taliban might sell US weapons to ?

Is it some-one to whom the (i) US (ii) UK (iii) France or Germany (iv) Russia, haven't been selling weapons to the last 10+ years ?

Otherwise, Yes, I'd be mighty upset that some-one was trying to "move in on my patch" and flog off "second hand weapons" that they'd suddenly acquired. Even worse when they didn't offer supply of maintenance spares.

What's the business of "selling armaments globally" coming to ? Always buy from a reputable buyer, I say.

Of course, Arms deals have and will always be a murky business - no denying it there. Insert the Yes, Minister clip about Arms Dealing.

Let's for the sake of argument assume that the Taliban would prefer the Dollar value of the equipment - I can think of some Institutions in South America with a Lot of Cash, a history of getting illegal goods from point A to point B who might be rather interested in some cutting-edge US Tech.

3. Joe Biden Press Conferences
I'm not defending either Red or Blue teams, their front-men or their sponsors.

Though if I recall rightly, Trump did attempt to initiate US troop draw-downs during his term, and the US military administration effectively ignored his direction to do so. [ Just as well John Bolton and Mike Pompeo were there to keep things in hand, and Trump on the "straight-and-narrow".]

So there's two points to cover here IMO - one is whether the Decision in general to pull out of Afghanistan was correct, then the discussion about the actualities of how it was done.

On the first point - yes, it's true Trump negotiated with the Taliban, a Decision I actually disagree with. However, that said, I agree with his reasoning for doing so - namely that the US can't build an Empire and they are throwing good lives at the problem, not to mention the financial cost, so it's time to end it. I personally think that the US should have done what Britain did in the age of Empire and actually run the place properly - and you need to do it for at least 3 generations - but that's a different take.

Trump has been clear on what his withdrawal plan was: Civilians, Equipment, Military and sabotage/destroy anything that couldn't be taken. Which is the basis for an orderly withdrawal. As mentioned above, he negotiated with the Taliban, they initially reneged on the deal, so Trump dropped a MOAB on them.

Biden on the otherhand, I mean - he said in a press conference that he was letting the Taliban provide perimeter security for them as they withdrew and that they'd given the Taliban a list of Names of people they'd like to get evacuated.

That's literally about as bad as putting a convicted Pedophile as the sole-carer at the Kindergarten.

4. Decision to Exit Afghanistan
Political vs Military Decision - Again, I don't quite see your point.

You're likely quite right in your assertion, in that the decision to exit Afghanistan was ultimately a political decision.

But surely the same could be said about the decision to invade Afghanistan in the first place.

If I recall rightly, Bush Junior used the following as the justification in calling for the Afghan invasion in the first place:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ40/html/PLAW-107publ40.htm

And that the same piece of legislation has effectively been used by both Red and Blue administrations since, to justify all manner of US government actions subsequent (e.g use of Guantanamo Bay to hold detainees; eaves-dropping on communications of US citizens, etc).

As for whether the US military "made the decision" (or "agreed with the decision"). What is the relevance ?

Or are you telling me that the US military (and its backers) now make the decision for the US to wage (or cease making) war external to the US ? Outside of the US Senate ?

Cheers, Viking

I kinda touched on whether we should have or not above - when I said it was Political, I meant the time frames and the manner were all so Biden could say he got out by the 20th anniversary of September the 11th.

I do not believe it was the case that Biden told the US military 'We need to get out, go and make it happen in the best way possible', and then letting the Military drive to meet the objective.

I believe it is more likely Biden said 'You need to be out by this date, don't care how, just do it'.

Or to put it another way - It's one thing to give the Military an objective 'Go and eliminate that High Value Target' and then letting the Military decide on the best method to achieve the goal (Drone strike, CIA assassin, SEAL Team/Special Forces Raid, 3rd party contractors etc.) and it's another to say 'I want to get this guy and I want to do it by dropping a Nuke on his head'.

TheDemonLord

29th August 2021, 19:43

Was reading somewhere, who knows where, that Afghans don't like suicide bombers. They are predominantly Sunni muslims, but within that, their particular Afghan flavour of Islam frowns on suicide. It was considered therefore that the Taliban were unlikely to resort to suicide veats etc.

"Arabs" resident in the country may be less reluctant.

Doesn't necessarily need to be a Suicide Vest per se, as above - One way missions spring to mind, flying a Blackhawk into a crowded area and letting rip with the Miniguns (as an example)

husaberg

29th August 2021, 20:22

349558

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9pnXpi2Ycc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSWkFuhGMBQ

https://youtu.be/Fc3pIzJKEHE

Trumps reason "they never helped us in WW2".....

US troops express anger at Trump's Syria policy: 'We betrayed' the Kurds
While Trump administration officials have argued that Turkey would have attacked the Kurds even if US troops had remained, the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces and a large bipartisan group of US lawmakers have slammed Trump for not opposing the Turkish operation more forcefully and for taking no concrete action to stop it.
Republican lawmakers in particular have harshly denounced Trump's decision as a betrayal of the Kurds and a strategic blunder that will weaken American credibility, reverse gains against ISIS, make it harder for the US to build alliances and give a boost to Russia and Iran.The Trump administration belatedly sought to halt the Turkish advance Monday, announcing a series of sanctions targeting Turkey's Defense, Energy and Interior ministers as well as the Defense and Energy ministries.
Vice President Mike Pence also revealed that Trump had spoken with both Turkey's President Erdogan and the Kurdish-leader of the Syrian Democratic Forces, Gen. Mazloum Kobani Abdi, adding that Trump had "received a firm commitment" from Erdogan not to attack the Syrian Kurdish

Viking01

30th August 2021, 10:23

1. Not that specific Attack - More a generalized 'let's assume there are some Islamic Fundamentalists with an Axe to grind against the US and a belief that Matyrdom will grant them 77 Virgins' - A Couple of Blackhawk helicopters on a one-way attack, for example, could do some serious Damage and with a range that the Taliban previously didn't have.

2. Of course, Arms deals have and will always be a murky business - no denying it there. Insert the Yes, Minister clip about Arms Dealing.

Let's for the sake of argument assume that the Taliban would prefer the Dollar value of the equipment - I can think of some Institutions in South America with a Lot of Cash, a history of getting illegal goods from point A to point B who might be rather interested in some cutting-edge US Tech.

So there's two points to cover here IMO - one is whether the Decision in general to pull out of Afghanistan was correct, then the discussion about the actualities of how it was done.

3. On the first point - yes, it's true Trump negotiated with the Taliban, a Decision I actually disagree with. However, that said, I agree with his reasoning for doing so - namely that the US can't build an Empire and they are throwing good lives at the problem, not to mention the financial cost, so it's time to end it. I personally think that the US should have done what Britain did in the age of Empire and actually run the place properly - and you need to do it for at least 3 generations - but that's a different take.

Trump has been clear on what his withdrawal plan was: Civilians, Equipment, Military and sabotage/destroy anything that couldn't be taken. Which is the basis for an orderly withdrawal. As mentioned above, he negotiated with the Taliban, they initially reneged on the deal, so Trump dropped a MOAB on them.

Biden on the other hand, I mean - he said in a press conference that he was letting the Taliban provide perimeter security for them as they withdrew and that they'd given the Taliban a list of Names of people they'd like to get evacuated.

That's literally about as bad as putting a convicted Pedophile as the sole-carer at the Kindergarten.

4. I kinda touched on whether we should have or not above - when I said it was Political, I meant the time frames and the manner were all so Biden could say he got out by the 20th anniversary of September the 11th.

I do not believe it was the case that Biden told the US military 'We need to get out, go and make it happen in the best way possible', and then letting the Military drive to meet the objective.

I believe it is more likely Biden said 'You need to be out by this date, don't care how, just do it'.

Or to put it another way - It's one thing to give the Military an objective 'Go and eliminate that High Value Target' and then letting the Military decide on the best method to achieve the goal (Drone strike, CIA assassin, SEAL Team/Special Forces Raid, 3rd party contractors etc.) and it's another to say 'I want to get this guy and I want to do it by dropping a Nuke on his head'.

Morning. Thanks for the reply.

A few tasks to do today, so just a quick reply this morning. For ease of reply, I numbered the four key points above.

1. Suicide Bombers
OK. I hadn't realised that the discussion had shifted from the Taliban to "Islamic Fundamentalists with Axe Sharpening Skills" in general.
But if I understand it correctly, the key point to take away is "Not to supply high technology weaponry to friendly / useful Islamic fundamentalists in future". Only axes. Noted.

Just a point of accuracy: I thought that the standard offer from Muhammad was 72 virgins ("companions"), not 77. I'll not make any flippant comments, given the experience of the Danish Jyllands Posten newspaper back in 2005.

2. Buyers and Sellers of Arms
South American parties. Noted.

While (with the volume of USD currently washing through the US banking system) the sale proceeds would probably get lost in the rounding, I'd still advise them not to settle in USD, and not to use US banking channels (or SWIFT) for remittance of payment.

3. Cost of Maintaining Empire
English Empire. Noted.

Though I never fully understood why they gave away the Empire in the first place. Was it because the natives wanted their countries back (e.g. India - 1947, South Africa - 1992, China and Hong Kong - 1997) ?

Better Quality of Management. Noted.

Though if Boris and his colleagues are anything to go by, perhaps it's time to consider increasing the allocation of peanuts. [ No, not pay them more; get a better class of .... ]

4. Decision to Exit Afghanistan
Strategic vs Tactical. Noted.

One can only hope that the US will make a sincere effort to "do better in future" (especially when they come to exit from Iraq and Syria). And, as per your earlier observation (about potential saving of lives and money), maybe the sooner the better.

Cheers, Viking

TheDemonLord

30th August 2021, 14:35

Morning. Thanks for the reply.

A few tasks to do today, so just a quick reply this morning. For ease of reply, I numbered the four key points above.

1. Suicide Bombers
OK. I hadn't realised that the discussion had shifted from the Taliban to "Islamic Fundamentalists with Axe Sharpening Skills" in general.
But if I understand it correctly, the key point to take away is "Not to supply high technology weaponry to friendly / useful Islamic fundamentalists in future". Only axes. Noted.

Just a point of accuracy: I thought that the standard offer from Muhammad was 72 virgins ("companions"), not 77. I'll not make any flippant comments, given the experience of the Danish Jyllands Posten newspaper back in 2005.

I'll be honest that I don't see much of a difference between the two. I'm sure on some finer aspects of interpretation of the Qu'ran, there are disagreements - but in terms of the general picture...

2. Buyers and Sellers of Arms
South American parties. Noted.

While (with the volume of USD currently washing through the US banking system) the sale proceeds would probably get lost in the rounding, I'd still advise them not to settle in USD, and not to use US banking channels (or SWIFT) for remittance of payment.

That depends on whether the Taliban will sell of course, but yeah there's many an unsavory group with relatively deep pockets who could potentially get their hands on some rather Spicy tech.

3. Cost of Maintaining Empire
English Empire. Noted.

Though I never fully understood why they gave away the Empire in the first place. Was it because the natives wanted their countries back (e.g. India - 1947, South Africa - 1992, China and Hong Kong - 1997) ?

Well, Hong Kong was a lease as a reparations for the Opium Wars IIRC - but in terms of Colonies - Giving them the option was IMO the right thing, and the success of the Commonwealth - whereby 'If you want to keep a close relationship with us, Cool, if not, That's cool too' - it's voluntary and I think it's been a reasonable success.

Better Quality of Management. Noted.

Though if Boris and his colleagues are anything to go by, perhaps it's time to consider increasing the allocation of peanuts. [ No, not pay them more; get a better class of .... ]

Hehe - but that's it - the American's have never built an Empire and think that if you just give people representative Democracies they will immediately see the Benefit of it etc.

Whereas the British went in and enforced it (sometimes a little too harshly...)

4. Decision to Exit Afghanistan
Strategic vs Tactical. Noted.

One can only hope that the US will make a sincere effort to "do better in future" (especially when they come to exit from Iraq and Syria). And, as per your earlier observation (about potential saving of lives and money), maybe the sooner the better.

Cheers, Viking

This all comes back to the question:

What is the objective? If the objective is to (for example) get Saddam Hussein - we've done that.
If it's to defeat the local Military - we've done that too.
If it's to setup a stable country that doesn't generate terrorists - well....

Viking01

30th August 2021, 17:38

I'll be honest that I don't see much of a difference between the two. I'm sure on some finer aspects of interpretation of the Qu'ran, there are disagreements - but in terms of the general picture...

That depends on whether the Taliban will sell of course, but yeah there's many an unsavory group with relatively deep pockets who could potentially get their hands on some rather Spicy tech.

Well, Hong Kong was a lease as a reparations for the Opium Wars IIRC - but in terms of Colonies - Giving them the option was IMO the right thing, and the success of the Commonwealth - whereby 'If you want to keep a close relationship with us, Cool, if not, That's cool too' - it's voluntary and I think it's been a reasonable success.

Hehe - but that's it - the American's have never built an Empire and think that if you just give people representative Democracies they will immediately see the Benefit of it etc.

Whereas the British went in and enforced it (sometimes a little too harshly...)

This all comes back to the question:

What is the objective? If the objective is to (for example) get Saddam Hussein - we've done that.
If it's to defeat the local Military - we've done that too.
If it's to setup a stable country that doesn't generate terrorists - well....

Thanks.
I suspect that we have a quite different perspective on colonialisation and its benefits, not to mention justifications for recent invasions around the globe (post 2000) by the US / UK / France and Germany.
Cheers, Viking

pete376403

30th August 2021, 19:35

I'll be honest that I don't see much of a difference between the two. I'm sure on some finer aspects of interpretation of the Qu'ran, there are disagreements - but in terms of the general picture....

You might say the same thing about Protestantism / Roman Catholicism. After all they are both finer interpretations of the bible, there are disagreement (such as Northern Ireland - 'The Troubles" which was resulted in at least 3500 deaths)

pete376403

30th August 2021, 19:46

I'll be honest that I don't see much of a difference between the two. I'm sure on some finer aspects of interpretation of the Qu'ran, there are disagreements - but in terms of the general picture....

You might say the same thing about Protestantism / Roman Catholicism. After all they are both finer interpretations of the bible, there are disagreement (such as Northern Ireland - 'The Troubles" which was resulted in at least 3500 deaths)

F5 Dave

30th August 2021, 20:37

No, no, no. The Dog I voted for wouldn't have allowed that sort of thing to happen.
Fake news.

husaberg

30th August 2021, 21:10

You might say the same thing about Protestantism / Roman Catholicism. After all they are both finer interpretations of the bible, there are disagreement (such as Northern Ireland - 'The Troubles" which was resulted in at least 3500 deaths)

you are wasting your time i pointed out that to him before including showing him the verses in the bible when he claimed it was only the koran it seems TLDR has a prefered sky pixie, all other are fake news.......

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/185625-Tommy-Robinson?p=1131118680#post1131118680
Ad his to ignore

Other claims were that he knows more than the US supreme court judges about US law and more about US security than the FBI
Add him to ignore and it cuts down the page size by 40%

TheDemonLord

31st August 2021, 08:40

TheDemonLord

31st August 2021, 08:54

you are wasting your time i pointed out that to him before including showing him the verses in the bible when he claimed it was only the koran it seems TLDR has a prefered sky pixie, all other are fake news.......

Except for one teeny tiny detail. Now, I'm not a Christian, I literally have no dog in this fight - but whilst there are passages in the Old Testament that you correctly cited - there are other passages in the Old Testament - such as a prohibition against eating Pork or Shellfish or wearing clothes of more than one fibre - yet, all of those aren't prohibited in Christianity - and this happens to be because of the events of the New Testament.

Or for a better answer:

https://www.versebyverseministry.org/bible-answers/can-christians-eat-pork

And this happens to be relevant, the passages you cited are nullified by the above - however, no such nullification exists in the Qu'ran.

Other claims were that he knows more than the US supreme court judges about US law and more about US security than the FBI
Add him to ignore and it cuts down the page size by 40%

For someone that claims to have me on Ignore, you do love to talk about me. I mean, there's people on here that I mentally ignore: I skip their posts, I don't respond to them, I don't reference them - because I don't want to interact with them.

And then there's you "I have him on Ignore, you should too, but here's a post of his, and here's my misinterpretation of what he said and TDL TDL TDL TDL TDL TDL TDL*frothing at the mouth*"

TheDemonLord

31st August 2021, 09:10

Thanks.
I suspect that we have a quite different perspective on colonialisation and its benefits, not to mention justifications for recent invasions around the globe (post 2000) by the US / UK / France and Germany.
Cheers, Viking

Oh I don't doubt that we do.

However Afghanistan represents in a microcosm every argument for and against what the British did.

Currently there are some rather abhorrent 'cultural practices' in Afghanistan (Raping of Boys - aka Bacha Bazi comes to mind). Do we in the West have a duty of care over our Fellow Man? And what is the extent of that Duty of Care?

Consider the personal example, you're walking home at night and you see a Man trying to rape a Woman - do you intervene? Do you use Force to stop him? Do you use Lethal force to stop him? Do you call the Police and walk away and go not my problem? Do you do nothing at all?

These are all the Moral choices to the Individual and I believe the same applies on the international stage.

When Lord Napier said to build a Gallows alongside a funeral Pyre and let us all act according to our Customs - I firmly believe that to be a moral, virtuous statement.

When Britain created the West African Squadron and destroyed thousand year old practices and cripples the economies of several African nations, to stop Slavery - I firmly believe that to be a moral and virtuous action.

Doing these things comes with a cost however. The current 'academic' milieu is to say it's all bad - but those same people have been howling about what will happen to Women's rights in Afghanistan now that the Taliban are back in charge.

The point is - you can't have it both ways.

Sure, Colonization did some pretty horrendous things (Treatment of Aboriginals in Australia is a particularly black stain) but it also brought stability, rule of law, democracy, education and functioning societies and ran them for sufficient time for people to realize that it's better than the previous system.

Afghanistan is what happens when you don't do that, you can't just give something to someone that they don't think they want and that they didn't fight for and then expect them to respect it.

Viking01

31st August 2021, 14:52

Oh I don't doubt that we do.

However Afghanistan represents in a microcosm every argument for and against what the British did.

Currently there are some rather abhorrent 'cultural practices' in Afghanistan (Raping of Boys - aka Bacha Bazi comes to mind). Do we in the West have a duty of care over our Fellow Man? And what is the extent of that Duty of Care?

Consider the personal example, you're walking home at night and you see a Man trying to rape a Woman - do you intervene? Do you use Force to stop him? Do you use Lethal force to stop him? Do you call the Police and walk away and go not my problem? Do you do nothing at all?

These are all the Moral choices to the Individual and I believe the same applies on the international stage.

When Lord Napier said to build a Gallows alongside a funeral Pyre and let us all act according to our Customs - I firmly believe that to be a moral, virtuous statement.

When Britain created the West African Squadron and destroyed thousand year old practices and cripples the economies of several African nations, to stop Slavery - I firmly believe that to be a moral and virtuous action.

Doing these things comes with a cost however. The current 'academic' milieu is to say it's all bad - but those same people have been howling about what will happen to Women's rights in Afghanistan now that the Taliban are back in charge.

The point is - you can't have it both ways.

Sure, Colonization did some pretty horrendous things (Treatment of Aboriginals in Australia is a particularly black stain) but it also brought stability, rule of law, democracy, education and functioning societies and ran them for sufficient time for people to realize that it's better than the previous system.

Afghanistan is what happens when you don't do that, you can't just give something to someone that they don't think they want and that they didn't fight for and then expect them to respect it.

Good Afternoon.

My last post applied solely to colonialism and invasions (in the pursuit of Empire). So I'm a little puzzled by parts of your last reply (#377).

1. Afghanistan in the 1800's
Given that the initial invasion of Afghanistan by the British (and the subsequent Afghan Wars) in the 1800's had nothing to do with either "human rights" or "social reconstruction", I don't see why you regard Afghanistan (or social factors) as the ideal example to focus on.

The Afghan Wars were simply a chapter in the colonial Great Game, in this case the clash between British and Russian empires. And in the case of the English, just several of many actions in the protection of its financial jewel of the crown - India. [ e.g. Crimea - Charge of the Light Brigade ]

2. Afghanistan post 911
The US and its NATO friends (e.g. the UK, Germany, etc) did not join the current foreign escapade in Afghanistan either "to root out terrorists threatening their homelands" or "in support of human rights and the advancement of women". So let's just cross those "red herrings" off the list right upfront.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/9-592-troops-of-36-countries-serving-in-afghanistan/2212251

Apart from tacit "political cover" provided by NATO nations, western interest in Afghanistan has been driven simply by some combination of self interest re (i) geo-strategic benefit to the US due to Afghanistan's central location (ii) proceeds from the opium trade - for funding purchase and supply of weapons (iii) access to and exploitation of mineral wealth, and routing of pipelines from some other Stans.

3. Other Factors
You also mentioned a number of other points you seemed to think relevant :
-Slavery
-Bringing of stability, rule of law, democracy, education and functioning societies

Slavery
Let me start by saying that I'm not a supporter of slavery. But you seem to like mentioning the UK being the first in the world to outlaw slavery. As if to try and occupy some moral high ground on this topic.

Granted, England did outlaw slavery (in its territories and by its agents) via the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833. [We should at the same time also mention the start of the Industrial Revolution and the 1833 Factory Act (which was targetted at the use of UK child labour). This was the first in a number of labour related Acts passed over that century. Not all was well on the labour front at home.]

But on the topic of slavery, you always seem to omit a few other little facts along the way:

- England was one of the principal parties giving rise to the growth of the African slave trade in the first place, turning what was then a local tribal practice in central Africa into a sizeable trans-Atlantic trade (for acquiring and transporting cheap labour to work British-owned Caribbean plantations - as well as for the transport of colonial goods back to England).

- The major English slave owners were financially compensated for their loss of slaves at the time of abolition. Indeed, the English taxpayer was still paying off that particular debt up until 2015:

https://www.rt.com/uk/418814-slave-compensation-bristol-taxpayer/

- It may have been the first to legislate against the practice, but the legislation did not put an end to the practice of using slave labour. Indeed, the practice of using effectively slave labour by the British in the Caribbean persisted until late into the 1800's. [We could also mention strong British material support for the US Confederacy during the US Civil War 1861-65].

- When some of the Caribbean islands secured independence in the 1960's - and wished to discuss the payment of reparations, this was - and continues to be - actively resisted by the English government:

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/jamaican-government-wants-billions-reparations-uk-over-slavery
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/29/slavery-abolition-compensation-when-will-britain-face-up-to-its-crimes-against-humanity

The book "Britain's Black Debt - Reparations for Caribbean Slavery and Native Genocide" (by Hilary Beckles) provides interesting reading.

Social Model
As to why the rulers of Protestant England of the early 1800's thought their society offered a better social model to the world (i.e. a better functioning society; greater stability), I leave that up to you to answer.

Perhaps due to being more industrially advanced than its competitors? Perhaps export of its poor and criminal (to places like Australia) also represented a solution to a then-current social problem.

Bringing of Stability, Rule of Law, Democracy, Education and Functioning Societies
You could have included "Christian Religion" in the above list as well.

The way you present them seems to paint a very rosy glow as to the motivations of British Empire. I think the key question to ask first is whether colonialisation of various countries by Britain was carried out primarily for:

- Enrichment of the UK Crown, UK mercantile aristocracy of the day, and the City of London
or
- Pursuit of the five factors you listed above.

Because I'd strongly argue the former (enrichment), with some of the latter factors (e.g. Rule of Law; Education; Democracy) simply being mechanisms used to try help achieve the former.

And in the case of the preceding three factors, the provision of "only just enough" of each - in order to facilitate operation of (and minimise disruption to) the exploitative process. After all, this was a "business" that was being run, not a benevolent society. And one didn't want to foster ideas of collaboration and independence amongst the natives.

TheDemonLord

31st August 2021, 22:57

Good Afternoon.

1. Afghanistan in the 1800's
Given that the initial invasion of Afghanistan by the British (and the subsequent Afghan Wars) in the 1800's had nothing to do with either "human rights" or "social reconstruction", I don't see why you regard Afghanistan (or social factors) as the ideal example to focus on.

The Afghan Wars were simply a chapter in the colonial Great Game, in this case the clash between British and Russian empires. And in the case of the English, just several of many actions in the protection of its financial jewel of the crown - India. [ e.g. Crimea - Charge of the Light Brigade ]

Let me first acknowledge that there were and are ulterior motives in the case of the British Empire, and that there were many many travesty in that regard. However, 'Civilizing the Savages' is/was a very salient factor in the process of Empire building.

Now, you'll excuse the language used (as I'm using the contemporary phrasing) - but the idea of 'civilizing savages' included what could be considered proto-human rights. Banning the practice of Wife Burning, Trial by Jury as opposed to lynching/extrajudicial killing.

These are things which were things, along with missionary work, financial considerations, prestige, strategic importance etc. etc. that were present.

2. Afghanistan post 911
The US and its NATO friends (e.g. the UK, Germany, etc) did not join the current foreign escapade in Afghanistan either "to root out terrorists threatening their homelands" or "in support of human rights and the advancement of women". So let's just cross those "red herrings" off the list right upfront.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/9-592-troops-of-36-countries-serving-in-afghanistan/2212251

Apart from tacit "political cover" provided by NATO nations, western interest in Afghanistan has been driven simply by some combination of self interest re (i) geo-strategic benefit to the US due to Afghanistan's central location (ii) proceeds from the opium trade - for funding purchase and supply of weapons (iii) access to and exploitation of mineral wealth, and routing of pipelines from some other Stans.

So, at the time the War kicked off, I remember being skeptical of both the motivations AND that a successful end-goal. That is to say, The Military Conflict would always have the Americans winning. The Subsequent objectives (whatever they may have been) less so.

As the conflict evolved, the stated intent was to leave Afghanistan as a stable democracy (I'll grant you every argument that the Stated intent was BS) - this is where the spectre of Human Right rises up.

3. Other Factors
You also mentioned a number of other points you seemed to think relevant :
-Slavery
-Bringing of stability, rule of law, democracy, education and functioning societies

Slavery
Let me start by saying that I'm not a supporter of slavery. But you seem to like mentioning the UK being the first in the world to outlaw slavery. As if to try and occupy some moral high ground on this topic.

Not try, actually.

See, before a long process in British philosophical thought, Slavery was a Human Universal. I want to be clear on this point: Every Culture and Language has a word for Slaves (most typically referred to people captured in Warfare, forced into manual/menial labour).

Every Nation has or had a concept of Slavery - whether that was the slightly less abhorrent 'Indentured Serfdom', through to the barbarity of the Arab Slave trade.

Not only was British Philosophical thought the first to realise that Slavery was a Moral Wrong, but so fervent was this conviction that it actually enforced it on a Global scale.

Granted, England did outlaw slavery (in its territories and by its agents) via the Slavery Abolition Act in 1833. [We should at the same time also mention the start of the Industrial Revolution and the 1833 Factory Act (which was targetted at the use of UK child labour). This was the first in a number of labour related Acts passed over that century. Not all was well on the labour front at home.]

I'd argue that although the Legislation was passed in 1833, the seeds are far older, I point to Mansfield's judgement in the Summerset case in 1772.

But on the topic of slavery, you always seem to omit a few other little facts along the way:

- England was one of the principal parties giving rise to the growth of the African slave trade in the first place, turning what was then a local tribal practice in central Africa into a sizeable trans-Atlantic trade (for acquiring and transporting cheap labour to work British-owned Caribbean plantations - as well as for the transport of colonial goods back to England).

Sorry, there's a factual error there, it wasn't a small local tribal practice - Read the description of the Kingdom of Benin when the Dutch and British first made contact - That was a kingdom built on the Slave trade.

Secondly - as above - Every nation on earth at this period had some form of Slave trade - the point of contention is that Britain (as well as Portugal and Spain) codified the practice and made it brutally efficient.

That England profited greatly by finding a way to do something better that everyone else was also doing is not somehow an argument that has a question of Morality attached to it.

We consider it Immoral (and it IS immoral), At the time, however, it was not considered to be so.

- The major English slave owners were financially compensated for their loss of slaves at the time of abolition. Indeed, the English taxpayer was still paying off that particular debt up until 2015:

https://www.rt.com/uk/418814-slave-compensation-bristol-taxpayer/

Sure - however that is inline with the English Common Law - As a modern example, the failed 'Buy Back' scheme in NZ is on the same principle, if the Government retroactively makes something illegal to own, it must compensate the owner for the loss (which is no fault of theirs)

We may think that the eeeeevil slave owners should be punished by the standards of today - the reality is, they were doing something that was legal (and again I must stress) that everyone else, on planet earth had done in one form or another.

- It may have been the first to legislate against the practice, but the legislation did not put an end to the practice of using slave labour. Indeed, the practice of using effectively slave labour by the British in the Caribbean persisted until late into the 1800's. [We could also mention strong British material support for the US Confederacy during the US Civil War 1861-65].

Sure, but it was the Royal Navy that did actually put an end to the Slave trade, which effectively set the death knell for the Practice as a whole.

- When some of the Caribbean islands secured independence in the 1960's - and wished to discuss the payment of reparations, this was - and continues to be - actively resisted by the English government:

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/jamaican-government-wants-billions-reparations-uk-over-slavery
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/29/slavery-abolition-compensation-when-will-britain-face-up-to-its-crimes-against-humanity

The book "Britain's Black Debt - Reparations for Caribbean Slavery and Native Genocide" (by Hilary Beckles) provides interesting reading.

Ah yes, Reparations. Paid to Whom? Not the Slaves themselves - they are all dead. What about their direct descendants? Also Dead. And what is the Statute of Limitations on Reparations?

Do I get to demand Italy pay me for the deeds of the Romans? or what about the Norwegian and Sweden for the crimes of the Vikings? Should they inturn have to pay the cost for the crimes of THEIR ancestors in the same time period?

The is little more than thinly veiled jealousy at the fact that some people won, some lost.

Social Model
As to why the rulers of Protestant England of the early 1800's thought their society offered a better social model to the world (i.e. a better functioning society; greater stability), I leave that up to you to answer.

So, before I answer this - I'm an Atheist myself - I say this to show I've got no skin in the following answer:

In the Protestant view of the world there are 2 key things:

1: The Protestant Work ethic
2: The individual is partly divine.

The first is fairly self explanatory - if everyone in a society works their hardest to better society, Society gets better.
The second one is more Subtle: If the Individual is partly Divine (that is, possessing a Soul, belonging to God) then it stands to reason that an affront against the individual is an affront against God.

E.g. If I mistreat you, I'm (by proxy) mistreating God. Therefore, because you are partly divine, I have to respect you as an individual. This seems self-evident to us now, but this was a revolutionary idea. Consider Torture (also a Human Universal) - banned in the UK in the 1600s - Why? Because Torturing you is Torturing (a part of) God.

Now, if I (and more importantly - the State) have to respect your Rights and Freedoms (God Given Rights - enter John Locke) - then you are free to maximize your potential, if you own the fruits of your own labour, you are free to take a risk - with the hopes of the ensuing reward.

None of these advancements are possible without the individual being recognized as having a degree of sovereignty about them. That idea of the Individual having an innate value comes from the Protestant line of thinking. Add in the concept of God-Given rights and you have the foundations for a prosperous society.

Perhaps due to being more industrially advanced than its competitors? Perhaps export of its poor and criminal (to places like Australia) also represented a solution to a then-current social problem.

The advancement was a by-product of the above.

Bringing of Stability, Rule of Law, Democracy, Education and Functioning Societies
You could have included "Christian Religion" in the above list as well.

Sure - and there are some benefits to that, some not so much.

The way you present them seems to paint a very rosy glow as to the motivations of British Empire. I think the key question to ask first is whether colonialisation of various countries by Britain was carried out primarily for:

- Enrichment of the UK Crown, UK mercantile aristocracy of the day, and the City of London
or
- Pursuit of the five factors you listed above.

Because I'd strongly argue the former (enrichment), with some of the latter factors (e.g. Rule of Law; Education; Democracy) simply being mechanisms used to try help achieve the former.

And in the case of the preceding three factors, the provision of "only just enough" of each - in order to facilitate operation of (and minimise disruption to) the exploitative process. After all, this was a "business" that was being run, not a benevolent society. And one didn't want to foster ideas of collaboration and independence amongst the natives.

I never said primarily because - but as above, a desire to bring order to the 'savages' of the world was very much in the public consciousness (take up the white mans burden...)

Now, I'll grant you that setting up a properly functioning society was a means to the end of what you refer to as 'exploitation' - but consider this, that process is what leads ultimately to what we enjoy in NZ.

It also happened to bring about the single greatest advancement in Human Rights in all of history, hell - it's the basis by which we have the concept of Human Rights.

And as a reminder no other country, prior or since has done it.

I happen to be quite passionate about this topic, because of certain groups that profess a hatred for Slavery and the Slave trade also possess a hatred of Empire and Colonization - And the fact is - No British Empire, No abolition of the Slave Trade. It was spawned in the unique breed of Thought that existed in the UK (distinct from Continental philosophy) and was translated from Philosophy, via Legal opinion, to Statute, then finally to armed enforcement.

Something of which, I happen to be very proud of.

Viking01

1st September 2021, 11:25

Let me first acknowledge that there were and are ulterior motives in the case of the British Empire, and that there were many many travesty in that regard. However, 'Civilizing the Savages' is/was a very salient factor in the process of Empire building.

.....[snip]....

I never said primarily because - but as above, a desire to bring order to the 'savages' of the world was very much in the public consciousness (take up the white mans burden...)

Now, I'll grant you that setting up a properly functioning society was a means to the end of what you refer to as 'exploitation' - but consider this, that process is what leads ultimately to what we enjoy in NZ.

It also happened to bring about the single greatest advancement in Human Rights in all of history, hell - it's the basis by which we have the concept of Human Rights.

And as a reminder no other country, prior or since has done it.

I happen to be quite passionate about this topic, because of certain groups that profess a hatred for Slavery and the Slave trade also possess a hatred of Empire and Colonization - And the fact is - No British Empire, No abolition of the Slave Trade. It was spawned in the unique breed of Thought that existed in the UK (distinct from Continental philosophy) and was translated from Philosophy, via Legal opinion, to Statute, then finally to armed enforcement.

Something of which, I happen to be very proud of.

Morning,
A very comprehensive reply. Thanks for the effort. Acknowledged.

Needless to say, I don't agree with some of what you've written (that doesn't make either of us right or wrong), but I'll not just rush into reply. Might take a day or three to craft a reply.

Cheers, Viking

TheDemonLord

1st September 2021, 13:58

sugilite

1st September 2021, 17:47

Well, Biden does not have any duty to protect people or dogs, so why the disgust?
Or is it just Democrats you hold to such principles?

Viking01

1st September 2021, 18:01

Well, that was much sooner than I expected...

https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/south-asia/taliban-black-hawk-helicopter-video-b1911264.html

Edit:

Read today that they left the Military Dogs behind.

I am now twice as disgusted as I was previously

Before you get too concerned or worked up: :msn-wink:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/us-military-demilitarized-vehicles-and-aircraft-when-it-left-kabul-2021-8

https://www.rt.com/news/533571-kabul-airport-rescue-dogs-cages/

TheDemonLord

2nd September 2021, 10:37

Well, Biden does not have any duty to protect people or dogs, so why the disgust?
Or is it just Democrats you hold to such principles?

Trump didn't leave US equipment and US Service dogs behind. I don't think ANY Republican would ever want to be seen to be abandoning troops (and yes, I'm including Military Dogs in that term).

But don't worry - Joe tells us it's been an 'Extraordinary Success'.

TheDemonLord

2nd September 2021, 10:38

Before you get too concerned or worked up: :msn-wink:

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/us-military-demilitarized-vehicles-and-aircraft-when-it-left-kabul-2021-8

https://www.rt.com/news/533571-kabul-airport-rescue-dogs-cages/

I've seen different reports on that - with tweets from the Taliban showing the 'demiled' equipment being very easy to repair as they only had enough time to do superficial damage.

Regardless - I point to the flying Blackhawk. GG Biden WP.

sugilite

2nd September 2021, 11:15

TheDemonLord

2nd September 2021, 11:24

Trump did not exit at all, he just talked about it, but could not get it done. Perhaps if he had cut down the 285 days of golf to say 280, he could of had the time to sort Afghanistan out.
You are reading too much into Joes words, People from Delaware, like New Yorkers are well known for their bombastic style, things are always the best, the biggest, the most beautiful. ;)

Oh I know, he came up with a Plan, Joe changed it, now Joe has to wear the consequences. Nice on the comparison of Hyperbole, but unlike most of Trumps - there is no way the Afghanistan Clusterfuck can be called in any way shape or form a 'success' let alone an Extraordinary one.

Trump leaves US allies the kurds to be slaughtered by the Turks, TDL oh well sucks to be a kurd. The US Army leaves some dogs behind, and TDL is disgusted. Hmmmmmm :oi-grr:

I've stated I disagreed with the non-interventionist policy - however in specific to the US Military:

https://www.militarytimes.com/opinion/commentary/2020/08/24/leave-no-one-behind-a-commitment-we-must-continue-to-make/

That's long been a US Military Virtue - sending living guys into the line of fire to retrieve the bodies of the Fallen.

Joe's administration has pissed all over nearly 200 years of Tradition. And this isn't my Opinion - this is the Opinion of every Ex and current Military member I've talked to/watch/interact with.

And since the buck stops with Joe (or, let's be real here - his handlers...)

pritch

2nd September 2021, 13:06

Trump didn't leave US equipment and US Service dogs behind. I don't think ANY Republican would ever want to be seen to be abandoning troops (and yes, I'm including Military Dogs in that term).

But don't worry - Joe tells us it's been an 'Extraordinary Success'.

Trump abandoned US facilities in Syria to the Russians, and he did that to protect his Turkish real estate properties.

He released 5000 Taliban from prison so that they could invade Afghanistan. It's almost as if you have forgotten he invited the Taliban to Camp David around the anniversary of 9/11. Trump would have done what Biden did except he would have fucked it up.

It's sad but true that military dogs don't always fare well when forces depart, particularly if rabies is present in theatre. I have a vague recollection that NZ may have done something similar in the dim distant past but I can't be sure. Whatever, it's a bit rich to blame Biden personally for the death of the dogs. Trump hates dogs so that's a weird complaint for TDL to make.

Biden was very lethargic initally but once he woke up they moved massive numbers of people out and that can be described as a success. I see the Republicans are whinging about the "Americans" left behind. Most of them are Afghans or south Asians with dual citizenship. At the same time some Republicans cry their crocodile tears, others are claiming it's too dangerous to let "potential Boston bombers" into the country. Sadly they'll suck in a few simpletons.

TheDemonLord

2nd September 2021, 14:41

Trump abandoned US facilities in Syria to the Russians, and he did that to protect his Turkish real estate properties.

Did he make Syria the 8th largest Army in the world?

No?

Then a bit of a false comparison.

He released 5000 Taliban from prison so that they could invade Afghanistan. It's almost as if you have forgotten he invited the Taliban to Camp David around the anniversary of 9/11. Trump would have done what Biden did except he would have fucked it up.

I do not believe it's possible to fuck it up more than Biden did. It's embarrassed the US internationally, The UK Government and Cabinet is so pissed off at the Biden administration that there have been leaks of some of the derogatory ways they refer to it (which is very uncommon for UK Politics), The Taliban are Meming the West on Twitter FFS about how they won. Add to that creating one of the best equipped Terrorist organizations in history. No, I cannot think how it could be fucked up any more than that.

I also do not believe Trump would have left all that equipment out there, he's a greedy money grubbing republican who hates foreigners, remember - he wouldn't want them getting a cent from the US, right?

But back to the Peace Deal - so, I've said I disagreed with it - however, it was one of Trump's policies to pull US troops out. However Trump's subsequent statement:

"People, Equipment, Military and Scorched Earth" (paraphrased) is the correct way to do it, you know it and I know - but Joe and the Woke Generals apparently forgot it - or were too busy planning on the 9/11 20th anniversary photo-op.

It's sad but true that military dogs don't always fare well when forces depart, particularly if rabies is present in theatre. I have a vague recollection that NZ may have done something similar in the dim distant past but I can't be sure. Whatever, it's a bit rich to blame Biden personally for the death of the dogs. Trump hates dogs so that's a weird complaint for TDL to make.

I didn't know Trump hates Dogs, nor do I care. I like Dogs, I particularly like Service Dogs - If the Withdrawal had been properly managed, they wouldn't have been left behind - they would at least be moved to a friendly base to wait out Quarantine.

Biden was very lethargic initally but once he woke up they moved massive numbers of people out and that can be described as a success. I see the Republicans are whinging about the "Americans" left behind. Most of them are Afghans or south Asians with dual citizenship. At the same time some Republicans cry their crocodile tears, others are claiming it's too dangerous to let "potential Boston bombers" into the country. Sadly they'll suck in a few simpletons.

Sleepy Joe was very Lethargic, however I disagree that he's woken up.

They may have moved massive numbers of people, but in no way can it be called a success - at Best you could call it managing a Clusterfuck, and that's as charitable as I can possibly be.

Then we've got to deal with the outright lie in the second paragraph. Republicans, Conservatives, National etc. have all been very clear on this principle:

If you have Served our country, then we (as a grateful nation) have an obligation to you.
If your service is such that it puts your life and your families life in danger (like if a terrorist organization with recently acquired US Military kit and a list of names going Door-to-door to execute those on the list) - Then we should evacuate you.

There's no contradiction or crocodile tears. If you're willing to die for our country, then you're welcome to live here: Français par le sang versé

pritch

2nd September 2021, 16:01

Did he make Syria the 8th largest Army in the world?

No?

Then a bit of a false comparison.

No it's entirely apt. He just cut and ran. That's what you're trying to say he wouldn't have done in Afghanistan but you're completely ignoring his previous performance.

I do not believe it's possible to fuck it up more than Biden did. It's embarrassed the US internationally,

It was always going to be a huge international embarrasment, similar to the fall of Saigon. Biden started slow but he finished strong. Trump has never really exhibited much in the way of even marginal competence. In the words of his first Secretary of State, "He's a fucking moron."

I also do not believe Trump would have left all that equipment out there, he's a greedy money grubbing republican who hates foreigners, remember - he wouldn't want them getting a cent from the US, right?

Again, you have no concept of how much equipment was there.

I didn't know Trump hates Dogs, nor do I care. I like Dogs, I particularly like Service Dogs - If the Withdrawal had been properly managed, they wouldn't have been left behind - they would at least be moved to a friendly base to wait out Quarantine.

To accentuate something somebody did in a bad way he'd say they did it like a dog. This was not uncommon but the only conveniently available verified one is his pathetic speech about the death of Baghdadi.

I suspect that what happened to the dogs might not be uncommon. I'd be interested to know if the Brits took their dogs home.

There's no contradiction or crocodile tears.

That's just laughable.

Anyhoo...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Baghdadi+speech+Obama+Trump&t=osx&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DOs BOWSjOLsE

sugilite

2nd September 2021, 16:31

Oh I know, he came up with a Plan, Joe changed it, now Joe has to wear the consequences. Nice on the comparison of Hyperbole, but unlike most of Trumps - there is no way the Afghanistan Clusterfuck can be called in any way shape or form a 'success' let alone an Extraordinary one.
Oh, you mean Trumps hyperbole was believable? Tainted mad love for your man there bud.
I'm going to build a cardboard rocket ship and fly to Neptune. There, I made a plan about as realistic as one of Trumps plans. About the only plans Trump made that were well executed, were the very regular trips to the golf course and mean tweets.
I don't disagree with your view on Bidens fuckups etc.

Joe's administration has pissed all over nearly 200 years of Tradition. And this isn't my Opinion - this is the Opinion of every Ex and current Military member I've talked to/watch/interact with.

And since the buck stops with Joe (or, let's be real here - his handlers...)

Actually, I believe Biden went his own way here without "handlers" perhaps he should of had some of those around, Trump sure could of done with them many times. You want to talk embarrassing -President Donald Trump said he addressed Russia's interference in the U.S. 2016 election and that President Vladimir Putin was "extremely strong" in his denials. Oh, the Russian president said he did not do that thing - good enough for Trump :laugh:

So pray tell, where did you chat with these military members? Gun forums, right leaning political forums? And they disapprove of how Joe the dem got it done? Hardly surprising eh.

Had Trump been in charge of the withdraw and dogs got left behind, I have no doubt you would of had no end of good reasons why. Not in the constitution perhaps?

For the record, I strongly feel they should of taken the dogs, interpreters and every other Afghan that did work for the US regime.
If they want to impeach Biden for the mess he made, go for it I say.

pritch

2nd September 2021, 18:50

Joe's administration has pissed all over nearly 200 years of Tradition. And this isn't my Opinion - this is the Opinion of every Ex and current Military member I've talked to/watch/interact with.

What is this historical tradition of which you speak, never leaving people behind? Like in Vietnam where they bugged out leaving all their paperwork behind for the North Vietnamese to identify US allies? I can definitely tell you your second sentence is wrong.'

This article about military dogs being evacuated from Kabul is interesting.

pritch

2nd September 2021, 19:33

pete376403

2nd September 2021, 19:39

What is this historical tradition of which you speak, never leaving people behind? Like in Vietnam where they bugged out leaving all their paperwork behind for the North Vietnamese to identify US allies? I can definitely tell you your second sentence is wrong.'

This article about military dogs being evacuated from Kabul is interesting.

The dogs used by the US forces in 'nam were shot by their handlers

pete376403

2nd September 2021, 19:43

sugilite

2nd September 2021, 21:11

This, apparently from the NY Times, is some of what was left behind. I can't confirm the NYT as I don't subscribe but my source is reputable so I'll take his word.
The main worry is where it might turn up next.

22,174 Humvees
634 MII7s
162,013 Radios
16,035 Night Vision Goggles
358,530 Assault Rifles
34,363 Machine guns
176 Artillery pieces
33 Mi-17 Helicopters
33 Blackhawk Helicopters
4-C130 Transports

Fuck me, if that's it then it looks like TDL's 8th largest army claim is bullshit.

Remnants of the U.S. military are inspected by the Taliban at the Kabul airport.
Aug. 31, 2021, 12:31 p.m. ETAug. 31, 2021
Aug. 31, 2021

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/08/31/world/31Smashed-1/merlin_193953279_5a2cd256-b199-41da-adee-f7f8c1de6613-master1050.jpg
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/08/31/world/31Smashed-2/merlin_193951938_5ab10ea0-318a-4136-86da-1adbbca0aca9-master1050.jpg
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/08/31/world/31Smashed-5/merlin_193953207_a1c92fea-5441-4c63-a9a0-e4b0886085d2-master1050.jpg

Looks like these guys below are yet to receive the upgrades.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2021/08/31/world/31Smashed-3/merlin_193951935_1e913f2f-4444-43f8-bb2f-a4bf5627737b-master1050.jpg

Shortly after the final C-17 transport plane left the airport in Kabul, Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr., head of the U.S. Central Command, addressed the media. He sought to quickly reassure the American public that, among other things, much of the U.S. military’s equipment that was left behind had been dismantled or destroyed so the Taliban could not use it.

Some of it, General McKenzie acknowledged, had been left at the airport. And on Tuesday, striking images emerged of Taliban fighters inspecting and securing some of the damaged equipment that remained, including dozens of military vehicles and armored S.U.V.s.

Photographs taken Tuesday showed Taliban members looking over remnants of a Blackhawk helicopter and an Afghan Air Force plane, both of which had been deliberately damaged by departing U.S. forces.

U.S. officials said last week that they had conducted a controlled detonation at Eagle Base, the final C.I.A. outpost outside the Kabul airport, to ensure that equipment or information left behind could not be used by the Taliban.

pritch

2nd September 2021, 22:23

This is the Kiwi Al Jazeera reporter. Kabul is just one airport used by the US. Presumably they left Bagram in a similar state - or not. The Taliban would have scored valuable equipment from the hastily departed Afghan units. Plus there will likely be huge US supply depots largely untouched.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJmDV1Qkpk0

Berries

3rd September 2021, 00:06

Don't they look so happy in those photos above?

jasonu

3rd September 2021, 05:46

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/planes-guns-night-vision-goggles-talibans-new-us-made-war-chest-2021-08-19/
The 16000 night vision goggles has to be a worry. Now the Talibiden can see in the dark.

F5 Dave

3rd September 2021, 07:42

You'd look like that too if you had to wear a dress matched with sneakers.
Maybe TDL should pop over to teach them the way of the lord jesus. :tugger:

pete376403

3rd September 2021, 07:59

USA has gone home, Taliban find someone else to fight with.
"worlds 8th largest military" shouldn't have too much trouble here:
https://au.news.yahoo.com/taliban-rebels-fight-panjshir-valley-124255064.html

husaberg

3rd September 2021, 21:57

The dogs used by the US forces in 'nam were shot by their handlers

All the horses used in the Desert in ww1 by the Aussies were the same.
I would assume the quarantine cost would be the issue rather than transport for the Dogs, the transport logistics for the horses.

Berries

3rd September 2021, 23:35

Nah, it was because they taste like chicken.

peewee

4th September 2021, 05:09

A newscast I saw from Kabul airport showed a lot of the aircraft (fixed and rotor wing) damaged, avionics amd other critical equipment removed, wiring ripped out, etc. Not easily fixed.

theyre already wearing the night vision goggles and driving the humvees around town

F5 Dave

4th September 2021, 08:36

Cruising for hot chicks.
"Hey bitches, check out my goggles":cool:

pete376403

4th September 2021, 09:55

theyre already wearing the night vision goggles and driving the humvees around town

Probably think the night vision goggles will let them see whats under burqas

TheDemonLord

7th September 2021, 11:24

No it's entirely apt. He just cut and ran. That's what you're trying to say he wouldn't have done in Afghanistan but you're completely ignoring his previous performance.

If Trump Cut and Ran - as you claim, then Biden not only Cut and Ran, but also handed them an early christmas present.

It was always going to be a huge international embarrasment, similar to the fall of Saigon. Biden started slow but he finished strong. Trump has never really exhibited much in the way of even marginal competence. In the words of his first Secretary of State, "He's a fucking moron."

I mean, when the opposition is making the Sleepy Joe jokes...

I agree that any withdrawal would be an embarrassment, However an orderly withdrawal, properly managed would have gone a long way.

Like telling the UK it's happening (as an example).

Again, you have no concept of how much equipment was there.

Considering that you've quoted the amount of equipment, that I posted initially - Au Contraire. But again, the point here is that you pull the Equipment out second to last. If it takes time, you negotiate for Time (which considering Biden changed the date to be for the September 11th anniversay shows it's possible...)

To accentuate something somebody did in a bad way he'd say they did it like a dog. This was not uncommon but the only conveniently available verified one is his pathetic speech about the death of Baghdadi.

So?

What is your point - if I call something a Dogs Breakfast, doesn't mean I hate Dogs.

I suspect that what happened to the dogs might not be uncommon. I'd be interested to know if the Brits took their dogs home.

That's just laughable.

Go to any Conservative Forum or Republican forum and you will find quotes like this:

"I'd gladly accept 100 afghans who risked their lives for the US rather than 1 illegal immigrant" or similar.

Berries

7th September 2021, 11:37

If Trump Cut and Ran - as you claim, then Biden not only Cut and Ran, but also handed them an early christmas present.
I am finding it somewhat difficult to picture a Christmas tree in the main square of Kabul this year.

sugilite

9th September 2021, 17:30

husaberg

9th September 2021, 18:50

So much for one KB members bold claim of "8th largest army".
Some facts rather than right wing loony talking points.

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-claims-about-taliban-afghanistan-getting-u-s-weapons-miss-ncna1278717&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1631245642126000&usg=AOvVaw1smQ8J6rM10RUOvAOyJeWC

Highlights below for those too busy to read whole article.

Commonly bandied about is the particularly inaccurate sum of over $80 billion in U.S. weapons now said to be in the Taliban’s hands. Former President Donald Trump claimed in a speech last month that the U.S. had “left $83 billion worth of equipment behind,” while an infographic produced by the British newspapers The Times and The Sunday Times illustrating this total has been making the rounds. Retweeted by the likes of Donald Trump Jr., the tally reports that the Taliban captured 22,000 Humvees and 174 aircraft.

Unfortunately, some of these numbers are wildly off the mark and misrepresent the nature of the threat. These figures mistakenly count every dollar of U.S. military aid over its 20-year war as having gone to equipment and every piece of equipment transferred to the Afghan military during that time as being in the hands of the Taliban and functional today.
This Photo caught my eye the other day
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/11F34/production/_120342537_gettyimages-1234972038.jpg

It was claimed to be part of the equipment us forces left behind
only thing is its part of the Afghanistan airforce.
It was also funded by NATO
https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/us-delivers-four-a-29-super-tucano-aircraft-to-afghan-air-force/
its basically a modern spad only not as cool or HD

The Afghan air force operated 23 A-29 attack planes, four C-130 cargo planes and a total of 33 militarized versions of the Cessna Caravan, some of which were configured for a light attack mission, according to the special inspector report.

It also flew about 150 helicopters, which included the American-made UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopter and armed MD-530s, as well as the Soviet Mi-17, which the Afghan air force was in the process of retiring.

So is its not US its not funded by the US aid but belongs to the Afganis anyway.
It was also rendered inoperable before US forces left.

R650R

17th September 2021, 20:54

https://youtu.be/EMj3zWVGUDI

pritch

17th September 2021, 22:20

R650R, may I quote TFG? "Tim Apple."

R650R

24th September 2021, 09:56

https://youtu.be/D-DQVf3cEBo

R650R

21st October 2021, 19:14

https://youtu.be/CqzZaPOTDL8

F5 Dave

21st October 2021, 21:23

We all agree hes a bit of a slug.

But using the oft employed whataboutism Trumpists were so keen on; at least he isn't an incompetent moron like that orange peice of complete shit before him.

husaberg

21st October 2021, 21:55

We all agree hes a bit of a slug.

But using the oft employed whataboutism Trumpists were so keen on; at least he isn't an incompetent moron like that orange peice of complete shit before him.

I recall the Trump White House went 300+ days without a press briefing.....
Even when they finally did have one have one they refused to answer questions from all but friendly journalists.

TheDemonLord

22nd October 2021, 08:03

We all agree hes a bit of a slug.

But using the oft employed whataboutism Trumpists were so keen on; at least he isn't an incompetent moron like that orange peice of complete shit before him.

Ah yes, because the biggest Military embarrassment since the fall of Saigon and the Border crisis and the Energy Crisis - those all happened under Tru...

Oh wait, no - that's right, they happened less than a year into the Biden administration.

If Trump is an incompetent Moron, then so far, it's making Biden look denser than a plank of wood.

I'm just waiting for the Democrats to start (or cause) another foreign War - that will be the ultimate 'Told you so'

sugilite

24th October 2021, 08:51

Ok, so Trump being a 10 at being a shitty president, I would say Biden is coming in at a solid 8, maybe 8.5.
I figured he was not going to be anything great, but he is actually doing really, really bad. You ain't got time for holidays Joe.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/10/23/politics/joe-biden-weekends-away/index.html#aoh=16350216489343&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

pritch

24th October 2021, 09:28

[QUOTE=sugilite;1131192234]Ok, so Trump being a 10 at being a shitty president, I would say Biden is coming in at a solid 8, maybe 8.5.
I figured he was not going to be anything great, but he is actually doing really, really bad. You ain't got time for holidays Joe.

I'm a bit startled to see Biden's time off exceeds Trump's. Trump was a time-off champ and that record is not a great one to break. Biden's legislative programme is a lot more liberal than was thought possible for a "corporate Democrat" and it would benefit millions of Americans. Most of it is supported by a majority of the population but two recalcitrant Democrat senators are blocking it.

The Republican party is still largely influenced by Trump so normal political processes are suspended, they are basically 100% opposed to anything. The biggest threat to the US currently is the legislation being introduced to restrict voting rights and alter voting procedures in Republican controlled states. The new laws make it possible for the state legislatures to change the result of an election. So far it seems Biden remains unconcerned about any of this. Time is running out and he's apparently not even listening.

Laava

24th October 2021, 09:47

America No1, love you long time!

F5 Dave

24th October 2021, 10:04

Joe (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000961/?ref_=tt_ch): When it comes my turn, will you want me to go?
Father (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001673/?ref_=tt_ch): For democracy, any man would give his only begotten son.

Father (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001673/?ref_=tt_ch): You're gonna make the world safe for democracy!
Joe Age 10 (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0533694/?ref_=tt_ch): What is democracy?
Father (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001673/?ref_=tt_ch): Well it's never bright clear on myself. Like any other kind government it's got something to do with young men killing each other I believe.

But now democracy will be reduced. Nice one amerca

R650R

25th October 2021, 09:06

husaberg

25th October 2021, 10:47

Again with regards to downtime I’d extend Biden the same caveat that I gave trump.

Lots of serious business decisions in real world and govt happen out on the golf course or similar. The frivolous game of golf was actually invented by the elite to enable a safe controlled environment to have sensitive secret discussions.
The White House or CEO office is just where the final formalities of paperwork is done

Your god David Icke also spouts this

'Illuminati' (an élite most of us wouldn't join even if they wanted us as members - Bob Hope, the Queen and, inexplicably, Boxcar Willie who trade funny handshakes on golf courses and deliver secret messages hidden inside fortune-cookie canapés at Buck House garden parties.

He also supports your beliefs on Covid as does Alex Jones....
https://www.quoteslyfe.com/images/collection3/quotations198/Misery-loves-good-company-so-if-you-198720.jpg
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/09/07/us/politics/jones_still_2/jones_still_2-facebookJumbo.jpg?year=2018&h=549&w=1050&c790c1f6ea057643d9e590bad73b43b2&k=ZQJBKqZ0VNhttps://i1.wp.com/www.brixtonbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/5g-virus.jpg?resize=620%2C321

Bonez

25th October 2021, 15:18

I see you KB Knitting curcle girls are still posting shit.

Time to update your ignor list ladies.

Whose going the be the first one to cry:woohoo:

TheDemonLord

26th October 2021, 08:29

sugilite

26th October 2021, 11:30

A fairly accurate take on the current state of US politics right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_SGxCEiwI

R650R

26th October 2021, 12:40

Why when he most popular president ever, 84 million votes without even campaigning.
Build back better into a divided nation aye?

TheDemonLord

26th October 2021, 14:24

A fairly accurate take on the current state of US politics right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_SGxCEiwI

Some of it was on the Money, some of it was standard Left-Wing fare.

The biggest Gripe, however, is this line:

"Why do Republicans vote against their economic interest?
Because they hate you!"

This is the part that it went from 'yeah, fair' to 'Nope'.

Firstly there is the presumption of the virtousness of the Left Wing Position:

"This is needed", "This is caring", "The rest of the world does it" - all the standard appeals that we've heard before - Case in point - look at Jacinda who touted herself as being Kind - she's now advocating for a Society where you only get to enjoy your basic Freedoms if you carry the right Papers.

But even deeper than that - Perhaps a Republican might vote against their own Economic Interest because it's contradictory to their own Freedom Interest. This is a long standing Theme of America - that Freedom is the ultimate goal and any sacrifice made in the pursuit of Freedom is noble and worthy: "The tree of Liberty...."

A Republican might vote against Socialized Healthcare because they want to maintain the Freedom of choice that exists in private-sector system, even if they personally might benefit from such a healthcare system.

Finally - he's partially onto something but because of his left-wing lean (only a lean, he's not too far-gone) - he can't say that some people automatically reject what the 'opposition' are championing, because they know from where the ideas come from.

As an example - consider the subject of Sex Education in schools (something with many Christian Conservatives where and still are, deeply unhappy about) - which was mainly brought about by Alfred Kinsey.

Their argument effectively boils down to 'Only a Pedophile would want to introduce the Subject of Sex and Sexuality to Children' - and given that we know Kinsey used the diary of a Pedophile in his work and the activities of one Helmut Kentler - there's a fair amount of circumstantial evidence to support this claim - and don't think that this is some artifact of History - I've seen snippets of a Primary school teacher in the US (a raving Left-wing loon who has since been fired - thank god) talking about teaching BDSM/Kink activities as part of Sex Ed... to Primary School Children!

To loop it back: When people hear self-described Marxists, who espouse Marxist rhetorhic (cited or uncited) who then propose 'radical' policies, the rational person is going to dismiss it because they don't trust the good intentions of the author, they suspect that it's an attempt to take another step towards their utopian end goal.

pritch

29th October 2021, 07:21

S
"Why do Republicans vote against their economic interest?
Because they hate you!"

This is the part that it went from 'yeah, fair' to 'Nope'.

Wrong. That is the exact situation. The middle and lower income people that voted for Trump knew he wouldn't do anything for them. They voted for him because they hoped he would shit on other people. The people they didn't like: the list is long.

TheDemonLord

29th October 2021, 08:15

Wrong. That is the exact situation. The middle and lower income people that voted for Trump knew he wouldn't do anything for them. They voted for him because they hoped he would shit on other people. The people they didn't like: the list is long.

"Ah yes, those stupid Racist Gammon, why won't they do what we, the enlightened intellectuals tell them to do, if they just did what we wanted - we could create the perfect society"
- Every Marxist, ever.

If I'm being charitable, I could agree that some Voted for Trump on his opposition to the insanity that is Wokeness and Social Justice - but that is not a case of 'shitting on other people' that is a case of 'opposition to people who hate your very existence', which is a much more rational response.

And let's take time to point out how wonderfully things aren't going under Biden with Rampant inflation...

R650R

29th October 2021, 10:09

Wrong. That is the exact situation. The middle and lower income people that voted for Trump knew he wouldn't do anything for them. They voted for him because they hoped he would shit on other people. The people they didn't like: the list is long.

Wow talk about projecting leftist ideology!

If you ever listened to his speeches he was all about American jobs, America first and speaking to their concerns.
The truth is the lefty just hate his success in life. Hes done very well, yes theres been some big money fails here and there But that’s the nature of high stakes projects
Yes he’s a politician and their all crooked one way or another but you can’t deny the wins he had in life and the ability to bring big deals together. All things in life are about relationships and he’s someone who has ability to bring people to the table and strike a deal

pritch

29th October 2021, 11:06

"Ah yes, those stupid Racist Gammon, why won't they do what we, the enlightened intellectuals tell them to do, if they just did what we wanted - we could create the perfect society"
- Every Marxist, ever.

If I'm being charitable, I could agree that some Voted for Trump on his opposition to the insanity that is Wokeness and Social Justice - but that is not a case of 'shitting on other people' that is a case of 'opposition to people who hate your very existence', which is a much more rational response.

And let's take time to point out how wonderfully things aren't going under Biden with Rampant inflation...

Man, as difficult as it mayseem you're getting worse.

The American right constantly shout "socialist" or "communist" with zero understanding of what those words mean. About as sensible as people here who think having a vaccine passport is tyranny comparable to Nazi concentration camps.

Wokeness, social justice and critical race theory are terms that have been degraded. Nobody sane uses them. George Soros is an even better insanity indicator, when I see that I'm done.

The inflation is international, there's a jump in demand following a major decrease caused by the pandemic. Biden isn't responsible neither is Ardern.

On second thoughts you might as well have invoked George Soros. Crazy town. Later.

TheDemonLord

29th October 2021, 11:42

Man, as difficult as it mayseem you're getting worse.

The American right constantly shout "socialist" or "communist" with zero understanding of what those words mean. About as sensible as people here who think having a vaccine passport is tyranny comparable to Nazi concentration camps.

I mean, I've posted links to the people who created Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality, Social Justice where they explicitly state their Marxist ideals - yet somehow you seem to willfully ignore this?

Why is that? They aren't subtle about it.

In case you've missed the umpteen times - here's another:

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3871&context=faculty_scholarship

From one Kimberly Crenshaw.

2 1 must make several comments at the outset. I shall use "African-American" and "Black"
interchangeably. When using "Black," I shall use an upper-case "B" to reflect my view that
Blacks, like Asians, Latinos, and other "minorities," constitute a specific cultural group and, as
such, require denotation as a proper noun. See MacKinnon, Feminism, Marxism, Method, and
the State: An Agenda for Theory

Bonus points for the linking of Feminism and Marxism.

i. The Role of Legal Ideology. - Critical scholars derive their
vision of legal ideology in part from the work of Antonio Gramsci,
an Italian neo-Marxist theorist who developed an approach to under-
standing domination that transcends some of the limitations of tradi-
tional Marxist accounts.7

There you have it in black and white (Pun intended) any of the 'Critical XXXXX studies' are derived from a Neo Marxist.

The fact that, more than any other great revolutionary Marxist thinker, he concerned
himself with the sphere of "civil society" and of "hegemony",

(that's in reference to Gramsci btw...)

Wokeness, social justice and critical race theory are terms that have been degraded. Nobody sane uses them.

Been degraded? From what to what?

All of it is just re-packaged Marxism. Seriously - I challenge you to read the scholarly articles from where this poison has been created - they aren't shy about it.

George Soros is an even better insanity indicator, when I see that I'm done.

And yet, I've never mentioned him.

The inflation is international, there's a jump in demand following a major decrease caused by the pandemic. Biden isn't responsible neither is Ardern.

And could there have been any policies, any at all that might have aggravated the Inflation? Like printing more money? Rampant Government spending? Extended Lockdowns?

Because those people are certainly responsible for those Policies

On second thoughts you might as well have invoked George Soros. Crazy town. Later.

Ah yes, shift the Goal Posts ;)

pritch

1st November 2021, 10:46

Wow talk about projecting leftist ideology!

If you ever listened to his speeches he was all about American jobs, America first and speaking to their concerns.
The truth is the lefty just hate his success in life. Hes done very well, yes theres been some big money fails here and there But that’s the nature of high stakes projects
Yes he’s a politician and their all crooked one way or another but you can’t deny the wins he had in life and the ability to bring big deals together. All things in life are about relationships and he’s someone who has ability to bring people to the table and strike a deal

His speeches were nonsense. He was about saving coal jobs, that never happened. He was stopping factories closing. They closed. He was talking to self interest and stupidity. He created a cult.

His successes are exceedingly limited. He started with a large fortune, basically lost it all. Since then it seems he's been a conduit for Russian money laundering. I'm quite happy to deny his wins in life, they are few, there are far more losses. He didn't even write that book you read.

All of his properties are bleeding cash, no American banks will lend him money, if the Russians are finished with him, he's finished.

husaberg

1st November 2021, 17:58

His speeches were nonsense. He was about saving coal jobs, that never happened. He was stopping factories closing. They closed. He was talking to self interest and stupidity. He created a cult.

.

the only thing Trump saved was his mates jail time.

Charles Kushner
Tax evasion, witness tampering, and making illegal campaign donations
Charles Kushner is a wealthy real estate executive and the father of Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in-law. After Charles Kushner learned that his brother-in-law was cooperating with federal investigators, Kushner hired a prostitute to lure the man into a motel room with a hidden camera, and sent the recording of the subsequent encounter to the man's wife (Kushner's sister) to retaliate against him.Then-U.S. Attorney Chris Christie called the case "one of the most loathsome, disgusting crimes" that he prosecuted. Kushner pleaded guilty to 18 counts, including tax evasion, witness tampering, and violating federal contribution regulations.He was sentenced to two years in prison (and ultimately ended up spending 14 months) and ordered to pay $508,900 to the FEC.After being released, Kushner returned to his real estate businesses.

Roger Stone
Making false statements to Congress (five counts),
Witness tampering,
Obstructing an official proceeding
Trump pardoned Stone after commutating his sentence six months earlier

Conrad Moffat Black
Mail fraud and attempted obstruction of justice
Former media mogul, current friend, supporter and biographer of President Trump.[54] Conviction reviewed by the Supreme Court in Black v. United States; convictions later upheld. Released from prison in 2014 and deported to Canada where he was born.

James Harutun Batmasian
Willful failure to pay over tax
Batmasian, a South Florida real-estate investor and property management businessman influential in Boca Raton, pleaded guilty to failing to pay more than quarter-million in payroll tax owed.

Stephen Bannon
Conspiracy to commit wire fraud; conspiracy to commit money laundering
Trump pardoned Bannon, a former top 2016 campaign advisor to Trump and his former White House chief strategist, after Bannon was arrested and indicted in August 2020 on charges of misappropriating money donated to the "We Build the Wall" organization for personal expenses. Bannon had pleaded not guilty and had not yet been brought to trial when Trump issued the pardon. Bannon and Trump had a strained relationship after Bannon left the White House in August 2017; Bannon had criticized Trump's son, and Trump responded by publicly disparaging Bannon. But Bannon returned to Trump's favor after he supported Trump's failed relection campaign and Trump's efforts to overturn the election.[112] Trump did not pardon Bannon's co-defendants: Brian Kolfage, Andrew Badolato, and Timothy Shea, all of whom pleaded not guilt

Mark Siljander
Obstruction of justice; acting as an unregistered foreign agent
Siljander was a Republican congressman from 1981 to 1987, from a southwestern Michigan district. He pleaded guilty in 2010 to acting as an unregistered foreign agent in connection with his work for Islamic American Relief Agency, which hired him in early 2004 to lobby to get the organization removed from a list of Senate committee list of entities suspected of providing funding for terrorism. Siljander also pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice; prosecutors stated that he had falsely claimed payments from IARA were charitable donations. IARA closed in October 2004 after it was added to the Treasury Department's list of global terrorist organizations due to the group's links to Osama bin Laden, al-Qaida and the Taliban. Siljander was never charged with terrorism. In issuing the pardon, the Trump White House cited Siljander's anti-abortion record while a congressman and his post-prison work abroad. Trump's decision to pardon Siljander was criticized by Republican congressman Fred Upton, who succeeded Siljander after defeating him in the 1986 Republican primary

Carl Andrew Boggs, II
Conspiracy to defraud the United States Department of Transportation and money laundering
His paving business, Boggs Paving Inc,, accepted a contract with South Carolina Department of Transportation to widen Interstate 26 through Lexington and Calhoun counties in 2013. Following the mismanaged project, Boggs and four of his employees were convicted of crimes related to the use of a disadvantaged business enterprise to obtain $88 million in government contracts

John Frederick Tate and Jesse R. Benton
Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States; causing false records; causing false campaign contribution reports; false statements scheme Benton and Tate were Ron Paul's campaign chairman and campaign manager, respectively, during Paul's unsuccessful 2012 campaign for the Republican presidential nomination. They were convicted at trial of concealing payments of $73,000 to state Senator Kent Sorenson in exchange for Sorenson's switching of his endorsement from Michele Bachmann to Paul ahead of the Iowa caucus. (The payments were disguised as "audio/visual expenses"). Senior U.S. District Judge Robert Pratt (who oversaw the criminal case against Sorenson) ridiculed Trump's pardon, saying, "It's not surprising that a criminal like Trump pardons other criminals.

Elliott Broidy
Securities fraud (insider trading)
Brownstein, a hedge fund operator and son of prominent Denver, Colorado attorney and lobbyist Norman Brownstein, pleaded guilty in 2012 to insider trading. His company made a $2.44 million profit from an trade in energy companies that he made after learning about a pending corporate acquisition from a friend

Elliott Broidy
conspiracy to serve as an unregistered agent of a foreign principal
Broidy, a California businessman and Republican fundraiser, was a major donor to Trump's 2016 presidential campaign and Trump's inauguration, and was also a deputy finance chairman for the Republican National Committee. He pleaded guilty in October 2020 to conspiring to violate foreign lobbying laws by accepting $9 million from Jho Low, a fugitive Malaysian businessman, in order to influence the Trump administration's Justice Department to drop its investigation into fraud and embezzlement at the Malaysian sovereign wealth fund 1MDB (see 1Malaysia Development Berhad scandal), and by seeking to extradite wealthy Chinese dissident Guo Wengui from the United States as part of a bid to get payoffs from China and the United Arab Emirates. As part of his guilty plea, Broidy admitted that he knowingly failed to register as a foreign agent and agreed to forfeit $6.6 million. Broidy faced a sentencing hearing in February 2021 before Trump pardoned him on his last day in office.[118] Trump did not pardon Nickie Lum Davis, a Hawaii businesswoman who had pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting Broidy's crimes, and who had cooperated with the government; Lum Davis's attorney called Trump's decision to grant clemency to Broidy, but not his less culpable underling, "incomprehensible" and unjust

James Austin Hayes, IV
Insider trading conspiracy
Hayes was one of several people convicted of particiting in an insider trading ring that operated between 2010 and 2012 led by a Wells Fargo employee who disclosed confidential information about impending mergers

William E. "Ed" Henry
Theft of government property
Henry was a former Republican member of the Alabama House of Representatives. He pleaded guilty in January 2019 to aiding and abetting theft of government property in connection with his involvement in a Medicare fraud scheme. Alabama's Republican U.S. Senator, Tommy Tuberville, supported the pardon

Hillel "Helly" Nahmad
Illegal gambling
Helly Nahmad is a Madison Avenue art dealer who is a member of the wealthy Nahmad family and son of the noted art collector David Nahmad. The younger Nahmad owns the entirety of Trump Tower's 51st floor, reportedly purchased at the cost of $21 million. He pleaded guilty to organizing an illegal $100 million gambling ring with suspected links to Russian organized crime out of Trump Tower. His art gallery in New York's Carlyle Hotel was raided by federal agents in 2013; Nahmad later pleaded guilty and was sentenced in 2014. He was also ordered to forfeit $6.4 million in earnings.Alimzhan Tokhtakhunov was indicted in connection with the case, but was never arrested

Richard George (Rick) Renzi
Conspiracy to commit extortion, attempted extortion and wire and mail fraud; honest wire services wire fraud (six counts); conspiracy to commit money laundering; concealment of money laundering; transactions with criminally derived funds (two counts); extortion under color of official right (two counts); conspiracy to make false statement; insurance fraud (two counts); racketeering
Renzi, a former Republican congressman from 2003 to 2009 from a northeastern Arizona district, was convicted in 2013 on 17 federal counts, including racketeering, money laundering, extortion, and filing false statements with regulators. He served three years in prison and was released in 2017. Renzi denied wrongdoing and insisted that the prosecution was politically motivated

Douglas Jemal
Wire fraud
Jemal, age 79 at the time of the pardon, was an influential Washington, D.C., real estate developer who was convicted of wire fraud in 2006 in connection with an efforts to influence a local government official to obtain profitable government leases. Jemal's leasing chief and two other employees were also convicted on varying charges. Jemal has been a major political donor to both parties over the years, and is a friend of Jared Kushner; he donated $100,000 to the Republican National Committee in 2020. In issuing the pardon, the White House referred to Jemal's charitable work and said he was "credited with rebuilding many urban inner cities." Trump did not grant pardons to Jemal's underlings; this was criticized by the lead prosecutor on the case, who said that the subordinates were "far less culpable" than Jemal and that the pardon sent a message "that there are two standards of accountability: One for the wealthy and well-connected, and one for everyone else

Robert Zangrillo
Conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and honest services mail and wire fraud; conspiracy to commit federal programs bribery; money laundering conspiracy; wire fraud and honest services wire fraud (six counts); federal programs bribery (two counts); filing a false tax return
Zangrillo is a prominent Miami businessman and the founder of the private investment firm Dragon Global. He was arrested in March 2019 and charged with taking part in the Varsity Blues college admissions bribery scheme by paying $250,000 to get his daughter accepted as a transfer student to the University of Southern California (USC). Zangrillo pleaded not guilty, and prior to the pardon, he was set to stand trial in September 2021. The White House said that the pardon was supported by USC alumnus and university trustee Thomas J. Barrack Jr., a longtime Trump friend who chaired his inauguration committee. However, Barrack denied involvement in the pardon

Albert J. (Al) Pirro, Jr.
Conspiracy to defraud the United States; tax evasion (four counts); fraud (29 counts)
Pirro, a former power broker in New York Republican politics, is the former husband of Jeanine Pirro, the Fox News host and consistent Trump all

Casey Urlacher
Conspiracy to defraud the United States; illegal gambling; money laundering
Casey Urlacher is the mayor of Mettawa, Illinois, and the younger brother of former Chicago Bears player Brian Urlacher, who visited the Trump White House in March 2020 and contributed to Republican and Trump's campaigns and Republican organizations. In February 2020, Casey Urlacher was indicted on two counts of conspiring to engage in illegal offshore gambling in connection with his recruitment of bettors for a Costa Rica-based website in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. Urlacher was one of 10 people charged in the federal grand jury indictment; none of the others received pardons. The Republican leader in the Illinois State Senate, Dan McConchie, who defeated Urlacher in a 2016 primary election, criticized the pardon of an indicted defendant who had not yet been convicted, saying: "Pardons should be done on the merits of the case, not based on a relationship with the President. This sort of practice undermines the public's faith in our system. We're supposed to be a nation of laws, not one based on people getting benefits just because of who they know

Kenneth Kurson aka Jayden Wagner, Eddie Train
Interstate stalking and harassment
Kurson, an ally of the Trump family, was appointed the editor-in-chief of The New York Observer in 2013 by Trump's son-in-law Jared Kushner, who at the time owned the newspaper. Kurson and Kushner became close friends. Kurson also wrote a speech for Trump in his 2016 campaign, and was a longtime associate of Rudolph W. Giuliani, Trump's lawyer. In October 2020, Kurson was charged with cyberstalking three people and harassing two other people.[129] He was pardoned on the last full day of Trump's term, before he could stand trial

Anthony Scott Levandowski
Theft and attempted theft of trade secrets
Levandowski, age 40 at the time of the pardon, stole trade secrets from Google's autonomous vehicle company Waymo, where he was an engineer, after he had left the company and was negotiating a position at Uber; Levandowski pleaded guilty as part of a plea deal, and was sentenced in August 2020 to 18 months' imprisonment. Levandowski's request for a pardon was supported by billionaire Trump ally Peter Thiel. as well as others

Glen Moss
Payment to non-licensed physician; attempt to evade or defeat tax
Moss, a member of the Trump's golf club in Westchester County, New York, was listed as donating $10,000 to the Trump Foundation in 2008. Trump pardoned him for his involvement in a health-care fraud scheme

Michael A. Liberty
Political contributions in the names of others and aiding and abetting
Liberty is a former Maine developer who pleaded guilty in 2016 to unlawfully donating $22,500 in 2011 to the primary campaign of Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney in violation of the federal campaign contribution limit ($2,500). He was sentenced to four months' imprisonment, one year of supervised release, and $100,000 fine, and was released from federal prison in 2018. In subsequent years, he donated to Republican organizations and Trump's campaign. A federal grand jury in 2019 indicted him and an associate on charges of scamming $50 million from investors; they have pleaded not guilty. At the time of the pardon, Liberty was living in Florida

Abel Holtz
Obstruction of justice Holtz, an influential Miami,
Florida banker and philanthropist who founded Capital Bank, pleaded guilty in October 1994 to lying to a federal grand jury about paying tens of thousands of dollars in bribes to Alex Daoud, a corrupt city commissioner (and later mayor) of Miami Beach. Holtz's previous 2006 pardon application was denied by President George W. Bush

George Gilmore
Two counts of failing to pay payroll taxes to the IRS and one count of making false statements on a bank loan application
Gilmore was the former chairman of the Ocean County, New Jersey Republican Party, and a power broker in New Jersey Republican politics. He was convicted by a jury in 2019, but maintained that he was innocent and contended that his failure to make timely payments owed to the IRS was attributable to a hoarding disorder. He was sentenced in 2020, but was free on bail pending the appeal. Bill Stepien, Trump's former campaign manager and a longtime associate of Gilmore's, lobbied for the pardon, which was supported by other influential New Jersey figures, such as Chris Christie, Jim McGreevey, Jim Florio, Donald DiFrancesco, Kim Guadagno, and Tom MacArthur.

Tommaso Buti
Conspiracy to defraud the United States; fraud by wire, radio, or television (35 counts); scheme to defraud: money, state tax stamps (transportation of stolen property (14 counts); money laundering - racketeering (laundering monetary instruments conspiracy)
Buti, a prominent restaurateur, had partnered with Trump in the late 1990s on Trump Management, a modeling agency. He was subsequently investigated on allegations of stealing from his chain of restaurants, and was indicted in 2000. Buti denied wrongdoing and was tried and acquitted on similar charges in his native Italy. He was never extradited to New York to stand trial on the U.S. charges, and Trump's pardon terminated the still-open case against him

Paul L. Behrens
Making false statements relating to health care matters (two counts); health care fraud (two counts)
Behrens, a former chief financial officer of Tampa, Florida-based WellCare Health Plans, pleaded guilty to a charge involving a false statement in connection with a scheme to defraud Medicaid.

Paul L. Behrens Making false statements relating to health care matters (two counts); health care fraud (two counts)
Behrens, a former chief financial officer of Tampa, Florida-based WellCare Health Plans, pleaded guilty to a charge involving a false statement in connection with a scheme to defraud Medicaid.

Thaddeus M. S. Bereday
Making false statements relating to health care matters
Bereday is the former general counsel of Tampa, Florida-based WellCare Health Plans; he was convicted in 2013 of fraud and making false statements in connection with a scheme to defraud Medicaid.

J Peter E. Clay
Making false statements (two counts)
Clay is a former vice president of Tampa, Florida-based WellCare Health Plans; he was convicted in 2013 of fraud and making false statements in connection with a scheme to defraud Medicaid.

Randall Harold "Duke" Cunningham
Conspiracy to commit crimes against the United States; tax evasion
Cunningham, a former seven-term Republican congressman from a San Diego, California-based district, pleaded guilty in 2005 to conspiracy and tax evasion for taking $2 million in bribes from defense contractors in exchange for federal contracts, possibly the largest bribery scandal in the history of the U.S. Congress (see Cunningham scandal). He served eight years in federal prison, and lived in Arkansas after his release.[102] Cunningham kept a "bribe menu" on congressional stationery listing the payments military contractors should make to him in exchange for his help securing government contracts.[103] The pardon is conditional and preserves Cunningham's court-ordered obligation to pay off the $3.6 million in restitution and forfeiture.[102] Trump's pardon of Cunningham was condemned by the federal prosecutors who led the case, as well as others

Paul Erickson
Wire fraud; money laundering
Erickson, a Republican political operative, pleaded guilty to charges of wire fraud and money laundering; court records stated that he was part of schemes that bilked $5.3 million from 78 investors from 1996 to 2018, including a scheme involving fake housing in the Baaken oil fields in North Dakota. Erickson told investors that they would receive returns of up to 150%; he spent the money received from the scheme on personal expenses, including for Maria Butina, to whom Erickson was romantically linked. Butina was later revealed to be a Russian agent. Erickson was sentenced to seven years in prison, and was serving his sentence at the time Trump pardoned him. In issuing the pardon, Trump's White House asserted that Erickson had committed only a "minor financial crime." Trump's aide Kellyanne Conway advocated for the pardon

Todd S. Farha
Health care fraud (two counts)
Farha is the former president and CEO of Tampa, Florida-based WellCare Health Plans; he was convicted in 2013 of fraud and making false statements in connection with a scheme to defraud Medicaid.

William L. Kale
Health care fraud (two counts)
Kale is the former vice president of Tampa, Florida-based WellCare Health Plans; he was convicted in 2013 of fraud and making false statements in connection with a scheme to defraud Medicaid.

David Tamman
Conspiracy to obstruct justice; destruction, alteration, falsification of records, aiding and abetting, causing an act to be done; accessory after the fact; obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting
Tamman, a former partner at the law firms Nixon Peabody and Greenberg Traurig, was convicted of 2012 for conspiring with a client to obstruct a U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission investigation into a $22 million Ponzi scheme. Tamman was fired by the law firms and disbarred by the State Bar of California in 2016. Alan Dershowitz, who was one of Trump's lawyers, represented Tamman in his unsuccessful appeal. Convicted in 2012, Tamman was released from prison in February 2019. His pardon was supported by the Aleph Institute, which was influential in Trump's clemency decisionmaking; the Trump White House also stated that former FBI director Louis Freeh and former federal prosecutor Kendall Coffey supported the pardon

Robert Cannon Hayes
False statements
Hayes, a former Republican congressman from North Carolina (1999–2009) and former chairman of the North Carolina Republican Party, pleaded guilty in 2019 to lying to the FBI regarding a scheme by Greg Lindberg, billionaire insurance businessman and political donor, to bribe Insurance Commission Mike Causey. In addition to Hayes, Lindberg and two of his associated were charged. Causey, who contacted law enforcement authorities and helped them investigate, was never accused of wrongdoin

Thomas K. (Ken) Ford
Violating mandatory safety standards; making false material statements and representations
Ford, who pleaded guilty in 2003 to making false statements to federal mining regulators, later became an executive at a Western Kentucky coal company

Paul J. Manafort
Five counts of tax fraud, two counts of bank fraud, and one count of failing to disclose a hidden foreign bank account; two counts of conspiracy
Like Stone, Van der Zwaan, and Papadopoulos, Manafort was also prosecuted during the Special Counsel investigation (2017–2019). Manafort spent less than two years in prison, having been released to home detention in May 2020 as part of an effort to reduce prison populations during the COVID-19 pandemic.[91] Because Trump's pardon was unconditional, the Department of Justice dropped a criminal forfeiture proceeding to obtain the properties held by Manafort: a Bridgehampton, Long Island mansion, an apartment in Chinatown, Manhattan, and a Brooklyn townhouse

Patrick James Nolan
Conducting the affairs of an enterprise through a pattern of racketeering
Former Republican lawmaker who pled guilty to soliciting for illegal campaign donations after being caught by the Shrimpscam sting operation by the FBI. Ultimately served 26 months; released in 1996 and became an activist for criminal-justice reform

Edward J. DeBartolo Jr.
Misprision of felony
DeBartolo, the former owner of the San Francisco 49ers, pleaded guilty in 1998 to concealing an extortion attempt; in 1997, he met former governor of Louisiana, Edwin Edwards, and gave him $400,000 in exchange for Edwards' help obtaining a license from the gaming board to allow Hollywood Casino Corp. (in which DeBartolo was an investor) to operate a riverboat casino

Michael Milken
Conspiracy; securities fraud; mail fraud; tax fraud; filing false reports with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC); assisting a brokerage firm in violating its net capital requirements
In pardoning financier Milken, Trump cited his charitable work after his release from prison. Milken's separate, SEC-imposed lifetime ban on securities trading continues

Dinesh D'Souza
Campaign finance violations
In 2014, conservative commentator D'Souza pleaded guilty to making illegal campaign contributions to the 2012 Senate campaign of his Republican friend, Wendy Long.

I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby
Perjury (two counts), obstruction of justice and false statements
Previously an aide to former vice president Dick Cheney. Convicted in connection with the CIA leak scandal. Pardoned following an earlier commutation by President George W. Bush in July 2007

Angela Ronae Stanton (Angela Stanton-King)
Conspiracy to transport in interstate commerce a stolen motor vehicle and tampering with a vehicle identification number (VIN) (17 counts)
Angela Stanton ran in the 2020 election as a Republican against Representative John Lewis[64] and then to fill his seat after Lewis's death.

Ariel Manuel Friedler
Conspiracy to access a protected computer without authorization
The former CEO of an education software business, Friedler used the Tor network to mask his identity while he accessed his rivals' systems using those credentials to harvest their contacts database as well as snoop on their software design and features. Former New Jersey governor Chris Christie lobbied for Friedler's pardon

David Hossein Safavian
Obstruction of justice and perjury (three counts)
Safavian is a Republican former lawyer and long-time associate of lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Through much of his career, he alternated between government roles and Washington lobbyist roles, in what is known as the "revolving door". He was serving as Administrator for Federal Procurement Policy, Office of Management and Budget, when he was arrested in connection with the Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal.

Jon Donyae Ponder
Bank robbery; interference with commerce by armed robbery (six counts)
Ponder's work was put into the national spotlight when President Donald Trump granted him a pardon during the 2020 Republican National Convention. The pardon was publicized shortly before Ponder was scheduled to appear as a speaker at the event.

Michael T. Flynn
Making false statements to Federal investigators

George Papadopoulos foreign policy advisor Trump
Making false statements
Papadopoulos was the first individual to be prosecuted in the Special Counsel investigation (2017–2019)

Alex van der Zwaan
Making false statements
A Dutch attorney, Van der Zwaan was prosecuted in under the Special Counsel investigation (2017–2019)
Flynn pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI in December 2017, during the Special Counsel investigation (2017–2019), but his sentencing was delayed

Duncan D. Hunter
Misusing campaign funds
A former United States representative, Hunter was set to begin his sentence in January 2020

Christopher Carl Collins
Making false statements, conspiracy to commit securities fraud Collins is a former Republican congressman and a staunch Trump supporter; he pleaded guilty in 2019 to an insider trading scheme.[76] Collins' son Cameron Collins, who pleaded guilty to participating in the crime and was sentenced to probation, was not pardoned by Trump

Bernard Kerik
Obstructing the administration of the Internal Revenue Laws; aiding in the preparation of a false income tax return; making false statements on a loan application; making false statements (five counts)
Kerik, the former New York City police commissioner, has been a contributor to Fox News. His pardon had been urged by Rudolph W. Giuliani

Alfonso Antonio Costa
Health care fraud
Costa, a former Pittsburgh dentist-turned-developer who became a friend and business partner of Ben Carson, Trump's Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, pleaded guilty to making fraudulent oral surgery claims; he was sentenced in 2008

Phillip Kay Lyman
Conspiracy to operate off-road vehicles on public land closed to off-road vehicles; operation of off-road vehicle on public lands closed to off-road vehicles
Lyman, a Republican politician was a San Juan County, Utah, county commissioner at the time of the crime and a member of the Utah House of Representatives at the time of the pardon. He led an "ATV protest" in which about 50 ATV riders, seeking to challenge federal management of public lands, drove on the Recapture Canyon in a southeastern Utah, a site containing Native American cliff dwellings. The Bureau of Land Management had closed the area to motorized traffic. Lyman was convicted of misdemeanor trespassing in 2014 and sentenced in 2015. Upon Trump's grant of the pardon, the Trump White House issued a statement asserting that Lyman had been "subjected to selective prosecution

Margaret E. Hunter
Conspiracy to commit offenses
Estranged wife of former U.S. Representative Duncan D. Hunter, whom Trump pardoned the previous day.[86] Trump's earlier pardon of the ex-congressman drew criticism from local officials and from the federal prosecutor on the case for omitting the ex-congressman's wife, who had pleaded guilty and cooperated with prosecutors

Paul Pogue
Making and subscribing a false tax return
Pogue, the founder and executive of McKinney, Texas-based construction company Pogue Construction, pleaded guilty in 2010 for under-reporting his taxable income in 2004, 2005 and 2006,[66] failing to pay more than $400,000 taxes owed.[67] In 2019, Pogue's son Ben Pogue and daughter-in-law Ashleigh Pogue gave a total of $238,541 to Trump Victory, a vehicle for Trump's reelection campaign.[67] Former Republican senator Rick Santorum was a leading advocate for Pogue's pardon; Paul Pogue had been a contributor to Santorum's presidential election bid

pete376403

1st November 2021, 20:35

the only thing Trump saved was his mates jail time...Snip...

Levandowski's request for a pardon was supported by billionaire Trump ally Peter Thiel. as well as others

The NZ connection. Thiel was made a Kiwi citizen in a private ceremony in Santa Monica in August 2011, (and this information was kept from the public until 2017) despite officials conceding he did not live in New Zealand and did not express any intention to move here.

"Mr Thiel has never lived in New Zealand," a report to the Minister of Internal Affairs Nathan Guy said.

"Mr Thiel lives in the US. He has stated that, if granted citizenship, he would continue to reside there to manage his American companies."

National party under John Key - Republican Lite where money talks louder than anything else and everything is for sale.

R650R

6th November 2021, 08:36

https://joannenova.com.au/2021/11/lets-go-brandon-80286/

“It’s the laughter that gives it away.

The power of the phrase Lets Go Brandon is that it’s a coded message. In an unguarded moment it reveals how many people in the room get the joke. In a safe way, everyone who disapproves of Woke, political correctness, media activism or Joe Biden can see for themselves that nearly everyone around them does too.

For anyone who isn’t aware of what this strange social phenomenon is, read this. It’s a new form of mass rebellion in an era when cancel culture, censorship, and media bias suppressed the other options.

As Matt Taibbi explains, the masses are trolling the same media hacks and pompous elite players who were fine with four years of yelling “F*^* Trump”. And while F*^* Joe Biden is a protest cry, Let’s Go Brandon is so much better. It’s politer, funnier and pops the media bubble too. Conservatives who would not be comfortable with a crass chant can get in on the joke. Anyone fed up with media propaganda can join in, which is a lot people.

And that’s what makes it so dangerous for the Culture Controllers. They use kindergarten namecalling and bullying to win victories they don’t deserve but it’s all incredibly fragile. Bullies need to isolate people so they can intimidate them into silence. They can’t bully the whole crowd, and once everyone in the group realizes that they are all targets together, the weapon breaks. Bullies can’t mock a crowd that is mocking them. It’s an Emperors-New-Clothes moment.

The Culture Controllers have successfully twisted most of the potent Right Wing words into weapons against the right. It stops the non-left from getting together behind one banner. The “Alt-Right” was quickly turned from being a broad anti-establishment term to a White Supremacist badge, and good people fled.

The bullies are already trying to equate “Let’s Go Brandon” with ISIS.

The “Let’s Go, Brandon!” Freakout Goes Next-Level

Matt Taibbi:

A Southwest pilot earns ISIS comparisons for joking into a loudspeaker, as pundits continue to mass-forget the previous four years....”

pritch

6th November 2021, 08:45

The power of the phrase Lets Go Brandon is that it’s a coded message. In an unguarded moment it reveals how many people in the room get the joke. In a safe way, everyone who disapproves of Woke, political correctness, media activism or Joe Biden can see for themselves that nearly everyone around them does too.

It was briefly funny a week ago. Sadly humour is not the right's strong point so we will likely be stuck with this for years because they can't come up with much else.
You can see who it appeals to because Mad Marge Taylor Greene had it on the wall outside her office, until it was cut down. Lauren Boebert attended a function with it written on the back of her dress. They are two of the most stupid people in Congress, although there is serious competition.

Kickaha

6th November 2021, 11:34

https://scontent.fchc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/250923706_260003562838317_4923621943053799683_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=_2SnXPMzk4AAX_jtEbj&_nc_ht=scontent.fchc1-1.fna&oh=1af8a4db33dba3d0adb9d53326759c04&oe=6189C82B

TheDemonLord

26th January 2022, 07:42

When even CNN issues a Rebuke of Biden, you know things are bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rMywANIfDA

The most telling line is the admission that they crucified Trump for things that they haven't with Biden.... and he's still doing terribly.

sugilite

26th January 2022, 07:56

TheDemonLord

26th January 2022, 07:59

As do fox and other right wing "news" organizations do with Biden - every day.
Nothing changes.

Sure, but you expect a Right wing organization to go hard on a Left wing Politician, when the rabidly left-wing press go hard on a Left Wing Politician...

sugilite

26th January 2022, 08:05

Sure, he deserves it too, he has been a slow moving train crash as we knew he would be. Trump deserved to be savaged by the right leaning press too, so imagine my surprise at you tacitly acknowledging the left wing media has more integrity :bleh:. Biden is simply too old and doddery to be leading the job that needs to be done.
Trump is a whole other story. He is an absolute arsehole. Sitting there for hours on jan 6th suddenly forgetting how to tweet. Enjoying the spectacle and carnage to indulge his ego. Just one single indefensible act (though you will try and succeed - only in your mind however to justify). Biden is not presidential material, Trump way less so. Welcome to the broken American political system.

TheDemonLord

26th January 2022, 08:40

Sure, he deserves it too, he has been a slow moving train crash as we knew he would be.

Who knew? I mean - the phrase that best sums it up is:

"I expected nothing and was still disapointed"

The media coverage and public perception of Biden was absolutely not that he would be a Train Crash:

'Experienced Hand'
'Real Politician'
'Unifying force'

Trump deserved to be savaged by the right leaning press too,

So all the times I posted the likes of Ben Shapiro criticising Trump, guess they don't count? The difference is that they critiqued him on things that actually happened (unlike Muh Russian Collusion).

Biden is simply too old and doddery to be leading the job that needs to be done.

See, I disagree. Someone old, Doddery and just merely incompetent would have done less damage than Biden. The problem is he is chasing the Radical Left-Wing utopian agenda. Case in point, his Build Back Better plan.

Trump is a whole other story. He is an absolute arsehole. Sitting there for hours on jan 6th suddenly forgetting how to tweet. Enjoying the spectacle and carnage to indulge his ego. Just one single indefensible act (though you will try and succeed - only in your mind however to justify).

What would you prefer:

An Arsehole who says mean things but makes sure that your Fuel is cheap, your savings aren't devalued and there's food on the shelves
Or Biden.

That's where the Rubber meets the road. And you can Jan 6th me all you want - I'll just point to the BLM riots (that were spurred on by Democrats, allowed to happen in Democrat run areas and had a far higher death toll than Jan 6th).

Now, if the majority of people at Jan 6th had looked a little more like this (https://www.google.com/search?q=american+militia&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=AOaemvL42PwFmVL0PEZ_uImeSiwPAaTZCg:164314297 1954&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ76HJ4M31AhVrklYBHX1sD-gQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=739&dpr=1.25) then you might have a point.

Biden is not presidential material, Trump way less so. Welcome to the broken American political system.

Was Trump not presidential? I mean - sure he didn't start a new war, that's not very presidential. He didn't send jobs and manufacturing overseas to China, that's not very presidential (I could go on here, but I think you get the point).

In terms of what Trump is/was - he's loud, brash, obnoxious, successful - he's the USA personified!

husaberg

26th January 2022, 18:41

350467350468350469

pete376403

26th January 2022, 19:01

Was Trump not presidential? I mean - sure he didn't start a new war, that's not very presidential. He didn't send jobs and manufacturing overseas to China, that's not very presidential (I could go on here, but I think you get the point).

In terms of what Trump is/was - he's loud, brash, obnoxious, successful - he's the USA personified!

Well that wasnt hard to refute "Four years later, it’s clear that Trump’s trade policies have failed U.S. workers. Instead of more good jobs, his ever-escalating trade wars have led to higher costs, lost markets, and more plant closures. Economic Policy Institute research shows that nearly 1,800 U.S. factories disappeared between 2016 and 2018.

In manufacturing-heavy Ohio, Trump’s tit-for-tat tariff battle with China was a major factor in the drop in annual job growth from 36,200 in 2016 to 3,700 in 2019,"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/09/17/donald-trump-trade-policies-damage-american-workers-column/5807633002/

TheDemonLord

26th January 2022, 20:21

Well that wasnt hard to refute "Four years later, it’s clear that Trump’s trade policies have failed U.S. workers. Instead of more good jobs, his ever-escalating trade wars have led to higher costs, lost markets, and more plant closures. Economic Policy Institute research shows that nearly 1,800 U.S. factories disappeared between 2016 and 2018.

In manufacturing-heavy Ohio, Trump’s tit-for-tat tariff battle with China was a major factor in the drop in annual job growth from 36,200 in 2016 to 3,700 in 2019,"
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/09/17/donald-trump-trade-policies-damage-american-workers-column/5807633002/

So, a Left Leaning, Pro-Union source says Trump Bad.

Imagine my shock.

But you'll notice in what I said - I said he didn't ship jobs off to China, not that he brought them back to the US.

Whether or not the Trade war with China was a success (I'll grant you that it didn't achieve all that it set out to do) it represents the first time in my lifetime that a US president has taken a stand against China and it's dictatorial communist regime.

Had it been allowed to continue and had there not been a certain outbreak of a certain virus, from a certain region, in a certain country with a geographic proximity to a certain lab - then things may have been different.

My view on it is that there was always going to be short term disruption to such a trade war, and most US manufacturers opted to use other Asian manufacturing, to get around the China tariffs (which although isn't as good as bringing it onshore, is still better than China)

husaberg

30th January 2022, 12:58

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2e0fb3bd88455a8267f30824d04e7ee3-pjlqhttps://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-17afea44f51af60869a0218ec71f0ffd-lq

sugilite

7th February 2022, 08:39

My god, this post of yours just made me laugh for weeks, top comedy mate. I've just cherry picked a few as I know you can turn one paragraph of mine into a multi quote bonanza :lol:

The problem is he is chasing the Radical Left-Wing utopian agenda. Case in point, his Build Back Better plan.
When Trump got in, he pronounced he was Mr Infrastructure and he got shit built. Yet, he produced absolutely no infrastructure plan, nor did he release an obama care replacement plan, though he spouted many times there was one. That shit slip your mind? :laugh:

An Arsehole who says mean things but makes sure that your Fuel is cheap, your savings aren't devalued and there's food on the shelves
Or Biden.

You may of noticed when corona hit, I cut Trump some slack and did not attack him on job losses and the economy starting to tank. The virus will wreak havoc no matter who is in charge. But no surprise when it's dem pres down you are running in with the steel caps on. The price of petrol has risen in every country, that Bidens fault too? Governments printing money, (including Trump when he was in), is now causing inflation? Who would of thought! Supply chain issues hitting every country - clearly Bidens fault again - not! :rolleyes: I guess Trump lovers have to grasp at any straw given eh :baby:

That's where the Rubber meets the road. And you can Jan 6th me all you want - I'll just point to the BLM riots (that were spurred on by Democrats, allowed to happen in Democrat run areas and had a far higher death toll than Jan 6th).

Comparing people storming capital buildings to overturn a fair and free election while doing a bit of hang mike penceing(where ever did they get that idea from I wonder) - in other words over turn democracy vs violence in a bunch of shit stirrers causing mayhem and murder, while a bunch of liberal polis turn a blind eye to suit their own purposes (standard poli scumbag - a beast bred in equal left/right measures). I'm not seeing much correlation. One action threatened democracy, the other a largely localized fracas. Apparently in your world they represent the same thing. Bet if it was the dem supporters ransacking the capital vs a bunch of kkk's stringing people up on burning crosses, suddenly there would be a no relation call from you.

Trump was the biggest loser ever, and as mentioned before, the irony is the dems need him to run again to have any chance of winning, because when they took over, they predictably made a complete hash of it (they really are a bunch of self inflated morons). So assuming the repubs run someone else and win, who is taking over? The likes of Trump in background, maybe even speaker of the house with Mike Gatez, Marjory Taylor Green and so on. The USA is well fucked what ever shitty party leads them. They are on the way out, we better start learning Chinese if we want to carry on in the new World.

TheDemonLord

7th February 2022, 09:09

My god, this post of yours just made me laugh for weeks, top comedy mate. I've just cherry picked a few as I know you can turn one paragraph of mine into a multi quote bonanza :lol:

I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I've gotta be me...

When Trump got in, he pronounced he was Mr Infrastructure and he got shit built. Yet, he produced absolutely no infrastructure plan, nor did he release an obama care replacement plan, though he spouted many times there was one. That shit slip your mind? :laugh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_Back_Better_Plan

During his presidency, Donald Trump floated using low interest rates to spend on infrastructure, including roads, bridges, and tunnels but specifically excluding the initiatives of the Democratic Party's Green New Deal.

There you go. And that's from the Biden article...

And in the article specific to Trump's infrastructure plans, the Democrats didn't support it because Fuck Trump and not Green enough.

Which is a lovely segway into my issues with Build Back Better. I'm not opposed to Renewable Energy, I am opposed to the pathological obsession with it. And when you've got a $6 Trillion spending plan, I think the word 'Pathological' is warranted.

You may of noticed when corona hit, I cut Trump some slack and did not attack him on job losses and the economy starting to tank. The virus will wreak havoc no matter who is in charge. But no surprise when it's dem pres down you are running in with the steel caps on.

I must have missed that part, probably because you were constantly citing the Death Rates, but fair enough - I'll accept you cut him slack on that.

Now, you'll note - I've said nothing about Biden's Covid policy (and we both know I could...) The issue you have is that I can point to places like Florida, where there is little in the way of Mandates or restrictions and they seem to be recovering quite nicely (it's either that or the influx of people from other more tyrannical states is propping up their economies).

The price of petrol has risen in every country, that Bidens fault too?

Yes. Basic Economics. If you have the biggest consumer of Petrol being a net importer of Fuel, that increases Global demand and therefore price goes up. If you have the biggest consumer of petrol being a net exporter of Fuel (as it was under Trump), that increases Global supply and therefore price goes down.

Governments printing money, (including Trump when he was in), is now causing inflation? Who would of thought!

Sure it started under Trump, but under Biden it's gone ridiculous. And since we only started to feel it under Biden and he's in the hot seat...

Supply chain issues hitting every country - clearly Bidens fault again

Well, most of the goods in the US go through the LA Ports, which enforced mandates, meaning that an already strained system suddenly failed. From whence did the Mandates come from? Not Trump. Starts with B, ends with Iden.

But it's not just the Ports - all manner of businesses where hit with regulation and mandates.

Comparing people storming capital buildings to overturn a fair and free election while doing a bit of hang mike penceing(where ever did they get that idea from I wonder)

Sure, if everyone that stormed the building was fully tooled up like those eeeeeevil Militia groups, then you might have a point. We've got a long history of what the threat of Armed Revolution looks like in America - it looked nothing like Jan 6th.

in other words over turn democracy vs violence in a bunch of shit stirrers causing mayhem and murder, while a bunch of liberal polis turn a blind eye to suit their own purposes (standard poli scumbag - a beast bred in equal left/right measures). I'm not seeing much correlation.

Except if you've read any of the philosophical literature that backs the movements of BLM and Antifa, you'd know that it is expressly to Overturn democracy. Which is why I treat it as the much more serious threat.

That and the much higher death count and higher cost.

One action threatened democracy, the other a largely localized fracas.

Largely Localized by an nationwide/international Movement. With Politician backing, corporate backing, media backing...

Apparently in your world they represent the same thing. Bet if it was the dem supporters ransacking the capital vs a bunch of kkk's stringing people up on burning crosses, suddenly there would be a no relation call from you.

I'll grant you one thing on that analogy - the KKK are exactly like the activist wing of BLM ;)

Trump was the biggest loser ever, and as mentioned before, the irony is the dems need him to run again to have any chance of winning, because when they took over, they predictably made a complete hash of it (they really are a bunch of self inflated morons). So assuming the repubs run someone else and win, who is taking over? The likes of Trump in background, maybe even speaker of the house with Mike Gatez, Marjory Taylor Green and so on. The USA is well fucked what ever shitty party leads them. They are on the way out, we better start learning Chinese if we want to carry on in the new World.

See, I don't agree with that characterization of Trump. At this point, I think the Republicans could put up a Potato and beat the Democrats. When even CNN pundits are lamenting that all Biden had to do was not be Trump and not be terrible and he couldn't even manage that.

husaberg

21st February 2022, 16:26

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2622cdf0af49648b0cd65b2363bb32be-lq

R650R

25th February 2022, 20:34

Nostradamus Biden predicted 13 years ago what he would cause in Afghanistan....

https://youtu.be/wycvHg-zaE8

TheDemonLord

26th February 2022, 16:13

Imma just leave this here:

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1230998887298564096?s=20&t=ZHimaoV096NFASXlK5NsCg

sugilite

26th February 2022, 17:19

Imma just leave this here:

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1230998887298564096?s=20&t=ZHimaoV096NFASXlK5NsCg

Factual when compared to your guy who praises Putin just about any chance he gets. A bit of an own goal there bud.

TheDemonLord

26th February 2022, 18:22

Factual when compared to your guy who praises Putin just about any chance he gets. A bit of an own goal there bud.

I'd take praise of Invasion any day of the week.

Putin is clearly shaking in his little Ushanka at what Biden will do...

And here's your reminder - neither the Crimea nor Ukraine happened under Trump.

sugilite

26th February 2022, 19:32

And here's your reminder - neither the Crimea nor Ukraine happened under Trump.

That literally means nothing.

A replacement health plan did not happen under trump either :bleh:

R650R

27th February 2022, 08:36

That literally means nothing.

A replacement health plan did not happen under trump either :bleh:

It means a lot when looney left say Trump was their puppet that the Russians installed via election fraud which apparently is not possible according to the left lol
Why didn’t Putin invade knowing his alleged pal trump would protect him?
Cause he knew Trump was real deal just like how North Korea stopped be idiots very quickly

Now we have basement t Biden and revelation of corrupt generals saying they would phone China before an attack....,

https://youtu.be/qp-vkb4PZLA

TheDemonLord

27th February 2022, 08:38

That literally means nothing.

A replacement health plan did not happen under trump either :bleh:

Oh, it means a lot.

Here, from the Guardian (of all places)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/26/poll-trump-russia-ukraine-white-house

sugilite

27th February 2022, 19:10

It means a lot when looney left say Trump was their puppet that the Russians installed via election fraud which apparently is not possible according to the left lol
Why didn’t Putin invade knowing his alleged pal trump would protect him?
Cause he knew Trump was real deal just like how North Korea stopped be idiots very quickly

Now we have basement t Biden and revelation of corrupt generals saying they would phone China before an attack....,

https://youtu.be/qp-vkb4PZLA

How exactly does your rambling relate to my writing in your quote? "A replacement health plan did not happen under trump either"

sugilite

28th February 2022, 16:26

Oh, it means a lot.

Here, from the Guardian (of all places)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/26/poll-trump-russia-ukraine-white-house

Hold it right there, any time, and I mean ANY time I reference an article from the Guardian, you dismiss it out of hand. But surprise surprise, if it supports your argument, suddenly it is all good? :sherlock:

TheDemonLord

28th February 2022, 17:06

Hold it right there, any time, and I mean ANY time I reference an article from the Guardian, you dismiss it out of hand. But surprise surprise, if it supports your argument, suddenly it is all good? :sherlock:

Sure - anytime The Guardian says anything against the Right Wing or pro Left wing, it's your bog-standard biased as fuck left-wing fair.

However, when they have to begrudgingly admit something that is even tangentially pro-Trump and against the Left Wing, then you know that it's not coming from a Biased source.

I could post a billion and one Fox-Esque articles saying the same thing from various right-wing outlets, but when even the Guardian (which is practically Pravda at this point) has to acknowledge it...

sugilite

1st March 2022, 09:16

Sure - anytime The Guardian says anything against the Right Wing or pro Left wing, it's your bog-standard biased as fuck left-wing fair.

However, when they have to begrudgingly admit something that is even tangentially pro-Trump and against the Left Wing, then you know that it's not coming from a Biased source.

I could post a billion and one Fox-Esque articles saying the same thing from various right-wing outlets, but when even the Guardian (which is practically Pravda at this point) has to acknowledge it...
OK, so any pro left anti right articles, swat em down, any pro right articles, super legit. :laugh:

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 10:02

OK, so any pro left anti right articles, swat em down, any pro right articles, super legit. :laugh:

Well, it's because you are accounting for and in this case going contrary to the editorial Bias.

sugilite

1st March 2022, 15:31

Well, it's because you are accounting for and in this case going contrary to the editorial Bias.

Now we have established you are a keen guardian fan, here is an interesting article...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 16:08

Now we have established you are a keen guardian fan, here is an interesting article...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

I'm not a Guardian Fan, it's like when a Vegan says something positive about the Meat Industry - you know it's not coming from a place of ideological bias and since it's contrary to their core ideals - for them to admit it, it is more likely to be true.

However, back to the article - I've seen that sentiment expressed elsewhere - that having Buffer nations between world powers is a good thing.

I can't personally speak to the Ukraine as to whether they want to join NATO or not, but I have seen several instances (including the legendary Memeing from the official Twitter accounts) where Ukraine doesn't feel comfortable with a Russian relationship, given that during the period of the Soviet Union, it wasn't exactly 'Consensual'.

There also has to be an accounting of the Speech that Putin gave, where he points to the history of the region and some of the grievances felt by Russia (obvious caveat, they don't give a justification for War).

sugilite

1st March 2022, 17:10

Uh huh, a different perspective...
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

husaberg

1st March 2022, 17:23

Uh huh, a different perspective...
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

that a well written piece'
The only way to beat Putin is united.

Sanctions are not going to be enough. You need to have a major international response, where governments decide on their own accord that they can’t do business with Russia for a period of time until this is resolved.

similar to Hitler, he’s using a sense of massive historical grievance combined with a veneer of protecting Russians and a dismissal of the rights of minorities and other nations to have independent countries in order to fuel territorial ambitions?

And he’s blaming others, for why this has happened, and getting us to blame ourselves.

You totally see it. Unfortunately, we have politicians and public figures in the United States and around Europe who have embraced the idea that Russia was wronged by NATO and that Putin is a strong, powerful man and has the right to do what he’s doing: Because Ukraine is somehow not worthy of independence, because it’s either Russia’s historical lands or Ukrainians are Russians, or the Ukrainian leaders are — this is what Putin says — “drug addled, fascist Nazis” or whatever labels he wants to apply here.

If people look back to the history of World War II, there were an awful lot of people around Europe who became Nazi German sympathizers before the invasion of Poland. In the United Kingdom, there was a whole host of British politicians who admired Hitler’s strength and his power, for doing what Great Powers do, before the horrors of the Blitz and the Holocaust finally penetrated.

sugilite

1st March 2022, 18:07

that a well written piece'
The only way to beat Putin is united.

Agreed :yes:

TheDemonLord

1st March 2022, 19:14

Uh huh, a different perspective...
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Interesting Article - I've not read the whole thing yet - but this one bit jumped out at me:

Those old historical patterns include Western businesses who fail to see how they help build a tyrant’s war chest, admirers enamored of an autocrat’s “strength”

China sprung immediately to mind. Something something Trump something China something Trade war something,

pritch

1st March 2022, 19:42

Uh huh, a different perspective...
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Fiona Hill has been a Putin watcher for a long time. Michael McFaul, former US Ambassador to Moscow, similarly considers that Putin is different now but that anything he says should be taken seriously. Putin usually does what he says, however outrageous it may seem at first.

sugilite

8th April 2022, 10:03

pritch

8th April 2022, 11:36

This is just plain sad. Really for me this video shows just how fucked the US system is - when this guy is voted in as president. Americas finest? And he beat the last guy resoundingly in a free and fair election, so how bad was he lol

Biden is undoubtedly past his best. He's still streets ahead of Trump who had no idea where he was and wandered off lost on a number of occasions.

When you look back over recent elections it's apparent that the USA does not select its best. Gore Vs Bush II f'rinstance. Then the guy that wins the vote doesn't get to be president. It's farce.

South Park summed it up, "You only ever get a choice between a turd sandwhich and a giant douche."

TheDemonLord

8th April 2022, 12:31

Biden is undoubtedly past his best. He's still streets ahead of Trump who had no idea where he was and wandered off lost on a number of occasions.

I know you are sincere, which makes that joke even more hilarious.

Laava

8th April 2022, 13:00

Biden was just a token to get rid of the incumbent fuckwit. Lols, he might still be the best candidate next time around if the republican party back trumpdouche again!

pritch

8th April 2022, 16:18

I know you are sincere, which makes that joke even more hilarious.

It's not a joke and it's more sad than hilarious. There are numerous clips available on YouTube showing Trump wandering off and having to be steered back to where he's supposed to be. You must have worked hard to avoid seeing them when they were news. None so blind and all that.

TheDemonLord

8th April 2022, 16:57

It's not a joke and it's more sad than hilarious. There are numerous clips available on YouTube showing Trump wandering off and having to be steered back to where he's supposed to be. You must have worked hard to avoid seeing them when they were news. None so blind and all that.

Ah yes, because the news has never objectively lied about Trump or tried to portray things in order to fit a narrative - nooooo that has never happened at all....

But the fact you try to compare it to Biden who fumbles through his words with all the grace and poise of the Village Drunk and use that as the basis to make any claims about cognitive decline - it's hilarious.

Tell me - has Biden taken his test yet, the same one as Trump or are the Democrats still circling the Wagons?

husaberg

8th April 2022, 17:52

TheDemonLord

29th April 2022, 09:35

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10728521/Financial-records-reveal-Joe-Biden-5-2million-unexplained-income.html

Now, some of us remember a whoooooole lot of noise about Trump and 'Russian Money' (Muh Russia Hoax!)

So I trust that everyone will be as equally outraged that is appears (with a greater amount of proof than Muh Russia) that Biden has been taking Bribes directly from the CCP.

I also expect a thorough, 6 year long investigation, daily news updates on CNN about how this is hurting 'our' democracy, and how it's grossly improper for the President of the US to have *any* financial ties to a foreign Adversary.

You've all set the expectation as to just how serious this issue is to you when it came to Trump - therefore I expect the same vitriol and unreasonable hatred to be levied at Beijing Biden.

sugilite

29th April 2022, 11:35

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10728521/Financial-records-reveal-Joe-Biden-5-2million-unexplained-income.html

So I trust that everyone will be as equally outraged that is appears (with a greater amount of proof than Muh Russia) that Biden has been taking Bribes directly from the CCP.

You've all set the expectation as to just how serious this issue is to you when it came to Trump - therefore I expect the same vitriol and unreasonable hatred to be levied at Beijing Biden.

OK, this actually looks really, really bad for Biden. After reading that lot, Biden and his son really do have some serious answering to do.
If guilty, impeachment and prosecutions are to be issued - jailing even. To be honest the left wing media need to be prosecuted for burying it, or laws put in place to stop that shit in the future, if not already in existence.

Mostly what this post highlights is that the American system has now so fucked, it has produced two of the shittiest corrupt presidents ever in a row. A clean broom needs to be taken over their whole system, it is just far to open to bribery and corruption. As in, their amendments need to be amended AND THEN ACTUALLY ENFORCED - big time.

BTW, This is what a non partisan post looks like bro, you should try it sometime. ;)

TheDemonLord

29th April 2022, 12:54

OK, this actually looks really, really bad for Biden. After reading that lot, Biden and his son really do have some serious answering to do.
If guilty, impeachment and prosecutions are to be issued - jailing even. To be honest the left wing media need to be prosecuted for burying it, or laws put in place to stop that shit in the future, if not already in existence.

It's funny you say they need to put laws in place to stop that....

Now - a quick recap, Republicans have been saying for years that there's been creeping censorship of Right Wing opinion/figures/ideas on Social media and for years the 'Eat the Rich' and the 'Billionaires and Millionaires' crowd have been saying 'Noooo the 1st Amendment doesn't apply to them, they are a private Company'.

Then Elon (Whom I'm now convinced is Cegorach...) buys Twitter and no shit suddenly the US Government does this:

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-04-28/disinformation-board-to-tackle-russia-migrant-smugglers

An Orwellian 'Ministry of Truth' by another name.

I don't think I need to go full tinfoil hat mode here to say that the timing of the events is awfully convenient and that one could reasonably infer from this that there has been cartel-like behavior between the likes of the Federal employees, the Democrat party, Social Media companies and the Legacy Media companies in order to smear Trump unreasonably, actively suppress true information about Biden, Stole... I mean 'Fortified' the Election. The list goes on.

This isn't a gripe against you - I respect the hell out of that post - And I know you've pointed out that I'm almost always partisan below - but the response to that challenge is better put here:

When the there is so much institutional bias, the centrist position always appears partisan.

If you went back 10 years, most of the positions I hold would be considered centre left, now most of those same positions are considered Right wing (not merely centre-right) if not 'Far right'.

BTW, This is what a non partisan post looks like bro, you should try it sometime. ;)

I give it a solid 7/10 - not as many insults directed at Biden if it were Trump, but y'know - I'll take the W.

F5 Dave

29th April 2022, 13:10

That shit should be investigated and judgement through courts if required.

Yeah corruption should always be kept in check.

But through the real system , not trial by Internet, or even media.

TheDemonLord

29th April 2022, 16:12

That shit should be investigated and judgement through courts if required.

Yeah corruption should always be kept in check.

But through the real system , not trial by Internet, or even media.

I mean, it's tepid, but I'll take it.

But don't be surprised if I quote this next time the next smear on Trump comes up...

F5 Dave

29th April 2022, 18:10

So should I click View post?. . . Nah.

Were you expecting us all to go Waaa Waaa. We're all lefties and we love Biden?

'Cause We're not. And we don't.

TheDemonLord

29th April 2022, 18:15

So should I click View post?. . . Nah.

Were you expecting us all to go Waaa Waaa. We're all lefties and we love Biden?

'Cause We're not. And we don't.

Love Biden? No.

But you do treat him with considerably more deference, respect and good faith than you ever treated Trump.

That's the point I'm making.

So you can say that you don't, but one quick comparison of your responses to the various accusations leveled at Trump vs your response here, well - suffice to say:

Night and Day.

sugilite

8th May 2022, 09:13

Then Elon (Whom I'm now convinced is Cegorach...) buys Twitter and no shit suddenly the US Government does this:

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2022-04-28/disinformation-board-to-tackle-russia-migrant-smugglers

An Orwellian 'Ministry of Truth' by another name.
First up, Musk has not actually purchased twitter yet, I'm starting to wonder if he will actually go through with it to be honest, a decent rark up though. (Ive been laughing all the way at the frazzled lefts reaction)
And I agree the so called ministry of truth is a pile of steaming bullshit.

suppress true information about Biden, Stole... I mean 'Fortified' the Election.
Oh shit, so the right wing media has printed articles actively showing actual proof the election was stolen? Links please!

I give it a solid 7/10 - not as many insults directed at Biden if it were Trump, but y'know - I'll take the W.
Wow, ok, so where is my "TDL gave my post 70% approval" T-shirt! :love:

sugilite

8th May 2022, 09:27

OK, because F5 has you on ignore, I'm taking this one, I love nothing better than a good attempt at climbing over a TDL wall, or cutting through it with a 99 dollar reciprocating saw :shifty:

Love Biden? No.

But you do treat him with considerably more deference, respect and good faith than you ever treated Trump.

I gotta say I never noticed F5 ever offering deference, respect or attributing good faith towards Biden, barely anyone else does here, and not doing so does not in effect offer tacitness of such concepts. See below.

That's the point I'm making.

So you can say that you don't, but one quick comparison of your responses to the various accusations leveled at Trump vs your response here, well - suffice to say:

Night and Day.
You really need to wipe those faux tears away.
Biden is a bumbling grandfatherly type character who yes, makes bad decisions and is doddery as all hell.
Trump on the other hand is beyond bombastic, mean tweets, constantly overstates his abilities, and lies like a motherfucker. "I would of run in there unarmed and taken on the gunman at that school" conveniently forgetting daddy funded his multiple draft dodges etc. So which character do you think will attract a good ole kiwi kicking? Seriously :rolleyes:

F5 Dave

8th May 2022, 10:52

I endorse this post. Thank you.

Clearly Trump was a joke. A bad joke. Any useless geriatric, Biden for example, would be much more competent. I wouldn't leave Trump to wash his hands unsupervised.

R650R

8th May 2022, 16:53

https://rumble.com/v127451-new-dinesh-dsouza-documentary-exposes-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election.html

sugilite

8th May 2022, 17:01

https://rumble.com/v127451-new-dinesh-dsouza-documentary-exposes-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election.html

Just a bunch of actors sitting around having a chin wag mate. Get back to us when you find some verifiable proof rather than a video of a bag lady dropping off unwanted subway leftovers.

TheDemonLord

8th May 2022, 19:06

First up, Musk has not actually purchased twitter yet, I'm starting to wonder if he will actually go through with it to be honest, a decent rark up though. (Ive been laughing all the way at the frazzled lefts reaction)
And I agree the so called ministry of truth is a pile of steaming bullshit.

I think Elon is a big enough Troll to go through with it. The guy seems to not give a shit and he appears to have some serious moral convictions about the nature of Free Speech.

And the Reactions of the Left have been exceptionally telling. I seem to recall claims of 'They are a private company Bro, 1st Amendment doesn't apply, they can do what they want' - funnily enough, that crowd seem to have gone *very* quiet.

Oh shit, so the right wing media has printed articles actively showing actual proof the election was stolen? Links please!

Well, tell me this: What do you call it when there's a very damaging bit of news to one side in an Election cycle and then multiple News, Media and Social Media institutions declare the Information verboten on pain of Death?

That sort of artificial rigging as far as I'm concerned is sufficient to use the word 'Stolen' (or as they said 'Fortified'). I'll grant you that you probably don't consider it strong enough for that wording, but I trust at the very least you would consider that sort of cartel-like behaviour to be a form of Rigging.

Wow, ok, so where is my "TDL gave my post 70% approval" T-shirt! :love:

I'll get the designs in the Mail.

F5 Dave

8th May 2022, 19:15

Funny thing is Biden would kill TDL just through incompetence.

husaberg

8th May 2022, 19:20

Funny thing is Biden would kill TDL just through incompetence.

How funny is it THAT TRUMP LOST TO BIDEN THROUGH MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF VOTES.
Bidens third rate at best, lacking charisma charm or personality a poor speaker and a washed-up old man.
Yet it was all they needed to defeat trump by millions of votes.

TheDemonLord

8th May 2022, 20:16

Funny thing is Biden would kill TDL just through incompetence.

Why do you think I'm so opposed to him?

TheDemonLord

8th May 2022, 20:22

OK, because F5 has you on ignore, I'm taking this one, I love nothing better than a good attempt at climbing over a TDL wall, or cutting through it with a 99 dollar reciprocating saw :shifty:

Ryobi?

I gotta say I never noticed F5 ever offering deference, respect or attributing good faith towards Biden, barely anyone else does here, and not doing so does not in effect offer tacitness of such concepts. See below.

That's the point I'm making.

So, before I make the retort, let me quote the Man himself for reference:

Clearly Trump was a joke. A bad joke. Any useless geriatric, Biden for example, would be much more competent. I wouldn't leave Trump to wash his hands unsupervised.

There is one standard for Biden - which for the sake of brevity, we'll call 'Bad, but Competent'
And a different standard for Trump - which for the sake of brevity, we'll call 'Bad to the point of not able to function'

Now, given everything that has happened (and is continuing to happen) - I absolutely get to make the point that had Trump did half of what Biden has done, and our roles were reversed, you'd be tearing strips off of Trump and myself for my presumed defence of him.

Instead we get the very tepid 'Biden is a useless geriatric, but more competent'. I mean, objectively that's not the case, life was objectively better under the Trump presidency.

You really need to wipe those faux tears away.
Biden is a bumbling grandfatherly type character who yes, makes bad decisions and is doddery as all hell.
Trump on the other hand is beyond bombastic, mean tweets, constantly overstates his abilities, and lies like a motherfucker. "I would of run in there unarmed and taken on the gunman at that school" conveniently forgetting daddy funded his multiple draft dodges etc. So which character do you think will attract a good ole kiwi kicking? Seriously :rolleyes:

Bumbling Grandfatherly type vs Mean Bombastic liar.

I don't think you could have made my point any clearer: There's a good will you are extending to Biden - Bumbling Grandfather who makes bad decisions and is doddery. Y'know - Bad decisions and doddery decisions like forgetting your birthday or driving when you perhaps no longer should.

Not causing massive Inflation
Not the biggest Military Fuck-up in my living memory
Not possibly being paid by the CC-fucking-P.

Do you not see how tame your critique of Biden is? And given how fiery the Critique of Trump has been, I think I'm more than justified in pointing out that the standard to which Trump was held and the standard to which he was vilified is worlds away from the standard to which Biden has been held.

TheDemonLord

8th May 2022, 20:23

How funny is it THAT TRUMP LOST TO BIDEN THROUGH MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF VOTES.
Bidens third rate at best, lacking charisma charm or personality a poor speaker and a washed-up old man.
Yet it was all they needed to defeat trump by millions of votes.

And Election 'Fortification', let's not forget that.

And burying a very damaging story about a Laptop, declaring it Misinformation and getting all the Social Media platforms to censure the story, let's not forget that.

pritch

10th May 2022, 08:57

https://rumble.com/v127451-new-dinesh-dsouza-documentary-exposes-ballot-harvesting-in-2020-election.html

Sorry, but this is too silly. D'souza is a convicted felon. Convicted of what? I hear you ask. Electoral campaign finance fraud.
At least he knows about electoral fraud, he has personal experience, although he wasn't very good at it. He got caught.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/dinesh-d-souza-pleads-guilty-manhattan-federal-court-campaign-finance-fraud

After thought: I just had a look at a minute or so of 650R's clip. D'souza, Charlie Kirk, Sebastian Gorka, etc, what a collection of arseholes. Laughable.

pritch

10th May 2022, 13:05

LOL R650Rs clip is so suspect that neither Fox nor Newmax will touch 2000 Mules, and they are normally not known for being fussy.

https://www.rawstory.com/2000-mules/

sugilite

10th May 2022, 14:55

Well, tell me this: What do you call it when there's a very damaging bit of news to one side in an Election cycle and then multiple News, Media and Social Media institutions declare the Information verboten on pain of Death?

That sort of artificial rigging as far as I'm concerned is sufficient to use the word 'Stolen' (or as they said 'Fortified'). I'll grant you that you probably don't consider it strong enough for that wording, but I trust at the very least you would consider that sort of cartel-like behaviour to be a form of Rigging.
Well, yes information was suppressed, so it would of effected votes to a point. However, my friend from a wordpress group i attended in the states could not vote as those nice republicans had removed the ballet drop boxes in his area, so he never got the chance as the queue he had to stand in did not reach the voting area before cut off. Swings and round a bouts. As I repeatedly say, both parties as bad as each other, just in different ways. People with both eyes open can see it.

sugilite

10th May 2022, 15:13

Ryobi?
No, just a cheap knock off gets the job done :msn-wink:

Instead we get the very tepid 'Biden is a useless geriatric, but more competent'. I mean, objectively that's not the case, life was objectively better under the Trump presidency.
Objectively, you are edging ever closer to becoming a radicalized RWNJ excludes you from using that word sorry. Life under Trump was pre-covid fallout catching up with the good ole USA. So comparing rotten apples with apples.

Bumbling Grandfatherly type vs Mean Bombastic liar.

I don't think you could have made my point any clearer: There's a good will you are extending to Biden - Bumbling Grandfather who makes bad decisions and is doddery. Y'know - Bad decisions and doddery decisions like forgetting your birthday or driving when you perhaps no longer should.

Not causing massive Inflation
Not the biggest Military Fuck-up in my living memory
Not possibly being paid by the CC-fucking-P.
Inflation would of still occurred if Trump had won. Trump declared he was withdrawing the troops out of Afghanistan, then sensibly passed that hospital pass to Biden, who then did a callous shitty job. Would Trump have been better? Who the fuck knows.

Do you not see how tame your critique of Biden is? And given how fiery the Critique of Trump has been, I think I'm more than justified in pointing out that the standard to which Trump was held and the standard to which he was vilified is worlds away from the standard to which Biden has been held.
Here is an excerpt from my very first post in this thread - "Can Biden rise above his 47 years of quite frankly mediocre performance and actually leave a lasting legacy of decentness? I certainly won't be holding my breath, but I do admit to a spark of hope that he will consistently do the right thing. ". I had low expectations and bless his hart Biden has not let me down.

You are in a team of 1.5 people that feels the way on the forum in regards to poor trumpy wumpy not getting a fair shake of the stick.
Further more, I clearly outlined to you the reason why, and you conveniently forgot to address those and instead present half of what I said as some sort of gotcha moment. :laugh: So here you go once again....
Trump on the other hand is beyond bombastic, mean tweets, constantly overstates his abilities, and lies like a motherfucker. "I would of run in there unarmed and taken on the gunman at that school" conveniently forgetting daddy funded his multiple draft dodges etc. So which character do you think will attract a good ole kiwi kicking? Seriously :rolleyes:

TheDemonLord

10th May 2022, 16:15

Well, yes information was suppressed, so it would of effected votes to a point. However, my friend from a wordpress group i attended in the states could not vote as those nice republicans had removed the ballet drop boxes in his area, so he never got the chance as the queue he had to stand in did not reach the voting area before cut off. Swings and round a bouts. As I repeatedly say, both parties as bad as each other, just in different ways. People with both eyes open can see it.

Now, supposing I take your friends word at absolute gospel truth and that this is a clear cut case of Gerrymandering - I hold that the world wide active suppression of the Truth to be a greater threat to any democracy than your friends attempt to vote.

By quite a significant margin.

And to be clear on my standards here - we aren't merely talking about One side says "Man Bad" and the other side says "No, Man Good", this is One side is systematically prevented from saying something that was true.

Objectively, you are edging ever closer to becoming a radicalized RWNJ excludes you from using that word sorry. Life under Trump was pre-covid fallout catching up with the good ole USA. So comparing rotten apples with apples.

Had Biden cancelled, reversed or scaled back any of the relevant policies that are causal to the mess we are currently in, I might let that argument slide - but he didn't, instead he tripled down on them - so no, not buying it in the slightest - all the fallout from Covid is entirely due to Government Policy.

Inflation would of still occurred if Trump had won. Trump declared he was withdrawing the troops out of Afghanistan, then sensibly passed that hospital pass to Biden, who then did a callous shitty job. Would Trump have been better? Who the fuck knows.

Sure, there would have been some Inflation -but there wouldn't have been federal mandates, which caused a whole host of cumulative effects.

As for Afghanistan - Trump has been clear that his plans was to pull out the Civvies, then Equipment, then Military - Would have been a clean exit? Most likely not.

Would it have been the absolute clusterfuck that happened under Biden? I don't think you could have done any worse even if you actively tried.

Here is an excerpt from my very first post in this thread - "Can Biden rise above his 47 years of quite frankly mediocre performance and actually leave a lasting legacy of decentness? I certainly won't be holding my breath, but I do admit to a spark of hope that he will consistently do the right thing. ". I had low expectations and bless his hart Biden has not let me down.

Still a galaxy away from how harsh your critique of Trump is/was. In addition, it's not just the level of critique, but the level of critique for what they have done.

I put it to you this way: Imagine for a moment that Trump was the president of just the Afghanistan withdrawal - what would you be saying to the likes of me?

You wouldn't be saying things like 'Trump is a bit Doddery" - No, I think the criticism would be more like:

"How can you even support this Person? This just shows why complete amateurs who have never held any political office should not be allowed to be President - he's absolutely incompetent - what would you expect from someone who dodged the draft? Military expertise? He's an embarrassment the world over and...."

Have I characterized the types of things you might say about about Trump had it been him correctly? I dare say it would probably be even harsher than that.

And I think you know as well that you wouldn't be merely calling Trump Doddery and Bumbling. This is the point I'm making.

You are in a team of 1.5 people that feels the way on the forum in regards to poor trumpy wumpy not getting a fair shake of the stick.
Further more, I clearly outlined to you the reason why, and you conveniently forgot to address those and instead present half of what I said as some sort of gotcha moment. :laugh: So here you go once again....
Trump on the other hand is beyond bombastic, mean tweets, constantly overstates his abilities, and lies like a motherfucker. "I would of run in there unarmed and taken on the gunman at that school" conveniently forgetting daddy funded his multiple draft dodges etc. So which character do you think will attract a good ole kiwi kicking? Seriously :rolleyes:

Well, there are more than just me and R650 who like Trump, however unlike them, they don't tend to wade into Politics

I mean, Fair shake of the stick - you had a 4 year long witch hunt, based on dodgy information illegally obtained (Muh Russia), constant smear pieces and selective editing of quotes etc. I don't think that could be considered a Fair shake - but that's not the point - All the things you stated:

"beyond bombastic, mean tweets, constantly overstates his abilities, and lies like a motherfucker. "I would of run in there unarmed and taken on the gunman at that school" conveniently forgetting daddy funded his multiple draft dodges etc"

Are just Words.

Whereas when I pay my Mortgage and see that the interest rate has gone up, when I look at the cost of Petrol, when I look at the cost of my weekly shop, when I get notices from Day Care/Gym/Council/whoever that prices are going up - those are of greater concern to me than a few mean things.

So you tell me - what deserves a greater kicking - the person who runs their mouth or the person who ends up costing you money for their incompetence?