Am I being too sensitive/bloody-minded?

[rogson]

A couple of weeks ago my car was stolen. It's an old beater so was only insured for third party. However, there were a number of personal items in it, so after a week of not hearing anything from the police I decided it was gone for good and I filed a claim for the personal items under my general contents insurance.

Last Friday I agreed a pay-out value with the insurance company and they mailed me a cheque (I was very satisfied with the service up to that point).

However, the police recovered the car over the weekend and, amazingly, all the personal items were still in it.

So, I called the insurance company yesterday, told them I would send the money back and asked them to cancel the claim from their records. At this point I was told they could not remove the record of the claim from the "Insurance Claims Register (ICR) database in Wellington", although it would show that zero pay-out had been made on it. Apparently this is a database that all insurance companies contribute claim information to - including the name of the claimant, type of claim, amount paid-out, etc. I was told that it is used by the industry to detect insurance fraud - but I can imagine it can (is?) also used to log/check the insurance history of people.

The reason given for it not being removed was that it was all done automatically by computer - which I interpreted as there currently being no mechanism in the software to cancel it. I told them I was not happy that it could not be removed explaining that to my mind my returning the money effectively cancelled the claim. I was then told I had been told the information would be logged in the ICR computer when I initially filed the claim (which is true), so that was the end of the matter from the insurance company's standpoint. This smacks of legal posturing to me.

I have asked the insurance company to send me a note explaining what information is logged and why it can't be removed, so at least I will have a record of it - but I am still not really happy.

So, my question is am I being too sensitive/bloody-minded about this? At the very least it smacks of "Big Brother" treatment to me!

[Sniper]

Nope its a good thing. It means that they can follow up on these sorts of things and just see if people make it a habit to lodge a claim and then cancell it.

It's nothing againts the consumer

[Lou Girardin]

Good stuff.
Unless the reason for the zero payout is noted, the assumption will be that your claim was suspect.

[Beemer]

I'd put it all in writing and keep a copy, just to cover myself. Explain that you waited a period of time and then assumed the car - and your personal belongings - were gone for good, and then you submitted your claim. Amazingly the police then recovered the vehicle and all your personal belongings were in it, so you returned the money you received in good faith. I'd point out that you don't have a problem with them keeping a record of the claim on your file, but could it please be noted that the reason you returned the money and wanted the claim cancelled was due to the goods being recovered by the police, and not for any other reason.

[Karma]

I would've kept the money and my personal stuff as well.

Perhaps I'm just not as honest as your good self.

[pyrocam]

hey man, I used to work in the biz you know. the ICR you mean?

the insurance claims register logs every claim for any insurance company (except AMI I think... dummarses) as soon as the claim is logged (or ther-a-bouts)

when you lodge the claim you are given a (ussually) voice recorded message that says 'do you agree that all information given will be stored in the ICR' or words to that affect.

anyways, you cant get it out but theres no point. only insurance companies can access the data and even though the claim was theoretically withdrawn the event still happened. your not gonna feel any shit from this unless you possibly change insurance companies and they ask you about it. When you open a new policy they ask you for previous claim details and then check what you say against the ICR to help assist in fraud detection when you lodge a claim btw so dont like... lie. When you do open a new policy, specify the claim was withdrawn and you will expereince no ill-effects (eg, your NCB)


FUN FACT of the DAY
NCB and NCD mean No claims Bonus and No Claims Discount, the less you claim the higher the number up to a theoretical maximum of about 65% in NZ. Depending on your insurer


mmmmm ramble ramble

[spudchucka]

Weasel's attitude is the reason insurance premiums are so high and also the reason why insurance companies have the checks and balances discussed in the first post.

[Ixion]

I would have thought you would have kept the money and handed over the recovered goods to the insurance company. That's what happens with a stolen car later recovered. Though perhaps the goods had semntimental value?

[Oscar]

Good stuff.
Unless the reason for the zero payout is noted, the assumption will be that your claim was suspect.


...and you know this....how?

A significant number of the claims on the register have a zero balance, due to the fact that people other than the policyholder were liable.

[justsomeguy]

Sorry Sir, the computer doesn't let us change the records. That is how the computer is set. The computer ensures that the information is maintained and stored in the appropriate manner. The computer........

For the love of God - don't any of them have a human working there???

You should retain your no-claims status. If they cannot delete the record they should be able to apend it with the details stating clearly that you retain your no-claims status.

Sounds like dirty profit generating tactics (charge you more for insurance next time).

[Oscar]

Sorry Sir, the computer doesn't let us change the records. That is how the computer is set. The computer ensures that the information is maintained and stored in the appropriate manner. The computer........

For the love of God - don't any of them have a human working there???

You should retain your no-claims status. If they cannot delete the record they should be able to apend it with the details stating clearly that you retain your no-claims status.

Sounds like dirty profit generating tactics (charge you more for insurance next time).


Yes, it's all a conspiracy - in fact Elvis is in charge of it.

Jaysus people, get a grip.
We're talking about a private data base, maintained by private companies who are in competition for your business and bound by the Privacy Act. If you don't like it, don't insure there (there are several insurers who don't subscribe to the service).

Me, I likes it. It helps reduce premiums by making sure scumbags don't get away with ripping off the insurers. If the price of that is a nil balance on a not at fault claim...I can live with it.

[pyrocam]

Yes, it's all a conspiracy - in fact Elvis is in charge of it.

Jaysus people, get a grip.
We're talking about a private data base, maintained by private companies who are in competition for your business and bound by the Privacy Act. If you don't like it, don't insure there (there are several insurers who don't subscribe to the service).

Me, I likes it. It helps reduce premiums by making sure scumbags don't get away with ripping off the insurers. If the price of that is a nil balance on a not at fault claim...I can live with it.


Hear Hear!

although its true Elvis does run it from the google moon base (http://www.google.com/jobs/lunar_job.html)

[Lou Girardin]

...and you know this....how?

A significant number of the claims on the register have a zero balance, due to the fact that people other than the policyholder were liable.

Because insurance companies are known to use the weakest excuses to avoid payouts.
It's been well documented, so get everything in writing, deal only with supervisors (get names), trust no-one.

[Oscar]

Because insurance companies are known to use the weakest excuses to avoid payouts.
It's been well documented, so get everything in writing, deal only with supervisors (get names), trust no-one.


So how would you react to someone at your work turning up with that attitude?


Just a wild guess - you have a lot of trouble with authority, don't you?

[pyrocam]

Because insurance companies are known to use the weakest excuses to avoid payouts.
It's been well documented, so get everything in writing, deal only with supervisors (get names), trust no-one.

thats right, insurance companies only employ one claims handler and 20 supervisors just so they can make sure everyone is getting the best service.

supervisors stuff up more than the handlers when they do the handlers job, they are just there to make decisions outside of normal operations

[Oscar]

thats right, insurance companies only employ one claims handler and 20 supervisors just so they can make sure everyone is getting the best service.

supervisors stuff up more than the handlers when they do the handlers job, they are just there to make decisions outside of normal operations


Having worked for Banks and Insurance Companies over the years, can I tell you what happens when people with Lou’s attitude turn up?

They get shafted.
Sooner or later they get into a situation where the loan application/claim could go either way.
This gets referred to the Supervisor or Manager.
The Manager looks at the file – the one full of correspondence like complaints, privacy act requests and (this is a dead giveaway) annual requests for premium quotations.
The Manager then declines the claim/loan, and hopes the client will fuck off to Kiwi Bank or State Insurance.

When I was in finance, I had clients whose rates I "front loaded". If they asked me the current loan rate, I would add a couple of points, knowing that they would whinge their arse off about getting a special rate. I would then back it off to the book rate, and leave them thinking they'd "beaten the system".

[pyrocam]

Having worked for Banks and Insurance Companies over the years, can I tell you what happens when people with Lou’s attitude turn up?

They get shafted.
Sooner or later they get into a situation where the loan application/claim could go either way.
This gets referred to the Supervisor or Manager.
The Manager looks at the file – the one full of correspondence like complaints, privacy act requests and (this is a dead giveaway) annual requests for premium quotations.
The Manager then declines the claim/loan, and hopes the client will fuck off to Kiwi Bank or State Insurance.

When I was in finance, I had clients whose rates I "front loaded". If they asked me the current loan rate, I would add a couple of points, knowing that they would whinge their arse off about getting a special rate. I would then back it off to the book rate, and leave them thinking they'd "beaten the system".

yeah I always thought those faggots in sales were as smarmy as me but never could prove it. something alot of people dont realise is insurers can just go, pfffft nah your a dick I dont want to insure you. as long as we get to the end of the contract we can say F off. or use one of the little used policy clause's to void the contract.


wait... we? I mean, like, them. from like, back in the day. all 7 months ago.

[Oscar]

yeah I always thought those faggots in sales were as smarmy as me but never could prove it. something alot of people dont realise is insurers can just go, pfffft nah your a dick I dont want to insure you. as long as we get to the end of the contract we can say F off. or use one of the little used policy clause's to void the contract.


wait... we? I mean, like, them. from like, back in the day. all 7 months ago.

Yeah, "them".
I'm a Broker now, one of the good guys....:stoogie:

[pyrocam]

Yeah, "them".
I'm a Broker now, one of the good guys....:stoogie:

a broker hahaha.... one of the good guys.. bwaaahahahaha oh please... pleease stop..


19667



ok yeah well brokers arnt _all_ bad, but for consumer insurance theres no point, stop being lazy and call around.

[Lou Girardin]

So how would you react to someone at your work turning up with that attitude?


Just a wild guess - you have a lot of trouble with authority, don't you?

The difference is that where I work, we give people what they pay for and appreciate their custom.

[Lou Girardin]

thats right, insurance companies only employ one claims handler and 20 supervisors just so they can make sure everyone is getting the best service.

supervisors stuff up more than the handlers when they do the handlers job, they are just there to make decisions outside of normal operations

Let me clarify my statement pyro.
When problems develop talk to supervisors etc. But always get the name of whoever you deal with. If you don't they dematerialise when problems occur.

[Lou Girardin]

Having worked for Banks and Insurance Companies over the years, can I tell you what happens when people with Lou’s attitude turn up?

They get shafted.
Sooner or later they get into a situation where the loan application/claim could go either way.
This gets referred to the Supervisor or Manager.
The Manager looks at the file – the one full of correspondence like complaints, privacy act requests and (this is a dead giveaway) annual requests for premium quotations.
The Manager then declines the claim/loan, and hopes the client will fuck off to Kiwi Bank or State Insurance.

When I was in finance, I had clients whose rates I "front loaded". If they asked me the current loan rate, I would add a couple of points, knowing that they would whinge their arse off about getting a special rate. I would then back it off to the book rate, and leave them thinking they'd "beaten the system".


I'm not worried. We are of an age and social demographic where these companies chase us.
And little tricks such as you mention only work with idiots. But it is very revealing of your attitude to your customers.
Competition is a wonderful thing.

[stunz]

Will you post the ins co response? I feel I need a good guffaw before the christmas cheer sets in...It would be interesting to see if you get the response you asked for or if you just get a lot of policy drivel.

Glad to hear you got your car AND its contents back. Thats relatively unheard of in my neck of the woods...

[pyrocam]

Will you post the ins co response? I feel I need a good guffaw before the christmas cheer sets in...It would be interesting to see if you get the response you asked for or if you just get a lot of policy drivel.

Glad to hear you got your car AND its contents back. Thats relatively unheard of in my neck of the woods...

yeah actually which co. was that? cos by default if theyve paid out then they just take ownership of the items. I guess if you havent spent any of the money yet and you prefer the old stuff then your better off with it I guess.


ok yeah thats a reasonable point lou. it is good to get the names, although some call centres (mainly outbound sales) and I _think_ state sales dept use fake names. although they are meant to use the same one.

when I was bored I'd use someone else's name for laughs.

[Oscar]

a broker hahaha.... one of the good guys.. bwaaahahahaha oh please... pleease stop..


19667



ok yeah well brokers arnt _all_ bad, but for consumer insurance theres no point, stop being lazy and call around.


I agree.
I would rather have teeth pulled than do consumer/domestic insurance.

I specialize in Professional Negligence, Directors & Officers and Liability Insurance.

[Oscar]

I'm not worried. We are of an age and social demographic where these companies chase us.
And little tricks such as you mention only work with idiots. But it is very revealing of your attitude to your customers.
Competition is a wonderful thing.


The only companies that chase consumer insurance are those that specialise in it. Due to the nature of their market their services standards have to be very low, like their average premium.

You get what you pay for.

As I've said here before, insurance is not something you shop for by price alone.

[fische]

I had my car stolen, and the insurance paid out. But they got me to sign a form saying that i hadn't arranged for it to be stolen and hadn't ryied to sell anything off it in the last 12 months, amongst other things, and that just pissed me off. I mean do they think I'm some sort of scum rip off ARTIST OR SOMETHING? They've got no problems accepting my premiums each month but then they turn around and have that sort of attitude. Do you think if i was gonna rip them off i'd tell them??? Fuckwits

[Oscar]

I had my car stolen, and the insurance paid out. But they got me to sign a form saying that i hadn't arranged for it to be stolen and hadn't ryied to sell anything off it in the last 12 months, amongst other things, and that just pissed me off. I mean do they think I'm some sort of scum rip off ARTIST OR SOMETHING? They've got no problems accepting my premiums each month but then they turn around and have that sort of attitude. Do you think if i was gonna rip them off i'd tell them??? Fuckwits


Actually they did think that.
Standard procedure when they think a claim is dodgy is to get the punter to sign a Statutory Declaration. It's partly a scare tactic and partly to crank up the consequences if they do find proof of wrong doing (signing a false declaration is easier to prove than fraud).

[pyrocam]

Actually they did think that.
Standard procedure when they think a claim is dodgy is to get the punter to sign a Statutory Declaration. It's partly a scare tactic and partly to crank up the consequences if they do find proof of wrong doing (signing a false declaration is easier to prove than fraud).


mmmm good old stat dec.

client: "what do you mean I have to sign it in front of a justice of the peace? cant I just sign it in the office?"
pyrocam : for the love of god who are you and why do you keep calling me? cough I mean, yeah yeah, sorry, goto the court and get it signed. dont worry, they only bite if your lying.

[thehollowmen]

The one you should go for is the privacy act request.. as mentioned above.

Hopefully you've got a reasonably clean record and it won't affect them playing around with anything else in the future.

yes you have to return the money, but I don't see why you can't cancel the claim and wipe all record of it.

[Oscar]

The one you should go for is the privacy act request.. as mentioned above.

Hopefully you've got a reasonably clean record and it won't affect them playing around with anything else in the future.

yes you have to return the money, but I don't see why you can't cancel the claim and wipe all record of it.


A claim is a claim.
It cost money to process even if nought was paid.

BTW - The money didn't have to repaid. He could have given the recovered stuff back instead.

[Lias]

A claim is a claim.
It cost money to process even if nought was paid.

BTW - The money didn't have to repaid. He could have given the recovered stuff back instead.
But unless he has a $0 excess, and a policy that guarantees full replacement cost, he'd loose out doing that.

[Oscar]

But unless he has a $0 excess, and a policy that guarantees full replacement cost, he'd loose out doing that.

Good point.
Actually, being as how the excess is defined as the first part of the loss, he'd be within his rights to withhold goods to the value of the excess.