Lawyers and the school system

[rogson]

I watched with interest a Closeup piece on lawyers getting involved in determining the "fair " treatment of disruptive school kids. In a nutshell my interpretation of the lawyers' thesis is that the common practice of suspending them from school denied them from receiving an education, and given that the school can make such an uncontested and potentially arbitrary ruling, the individual could suffer an unfair denial of their access to an education.

So, ultimately does this mean we should be prepared to spend disproportionally more money on the "failures"?

I am happy to be enlightened if my interpretation is wrong but in the meantime ponder the following observations:

A cynic would say we have educated too many lawyers in recent years and as a result they are finding it difficult to employ everyone and maintain their incomes. What better than to open a "new front" targeting the education system, particularly in view of the fact that the respondent is the government (i.e. taxpayer) and they are "good for the money" . The words "gravy train" come to mind[/LIST]

A liberal would say the state funded education system is a form of institutionalised daycare. It is simply society's most efficient solution to keeping kids off the streets while mum and dad pursue gainful and productive employment. The fact that some get an education and become productive members of society is a future benefit to society which defrays the current cost (perhaps even provides a return on it). The ones that don't? - well lets not let them disrupt those that do (and thereby jepoardise the benefit), and in any event society has established another institution for them - the welfare system.

A socialist would say lets spend the time and effort on them because ultimately we want an egalatarian society, and all individuals contribute equally to society regardless of the purely economic benefits they may bring.

I guess fundamentally NZ society has decided that individuals have a right to a certain level of education, and is willing to provide resources for that. If certain individuals don't take advantage of it, then so be it, but lets not divert resources from those that do - even better, lets concentrate on those that do!

[Hitcher]

Invest in the underachievers, let the smart kids fend for themselves. This is the "education" system New Zealanders have always embraced. Clearly the rabid pursuit of mediocrity has much to commend it...

[TwoSeven]

I've never in my few decades on the planet met any 'failures'. I have however seen plenty of schools crap at teaching. Yes, more money should be spent on teachning schools to do their jobs - some are piss poor at it anyhow (probably what you get from a system run by a comittee of parents).

[rogson]

I've never in my few decades on the planet met any 'failures'. I have however seen plenty of schools crap at teaching.....

Oh, how dumb of me - of course, its the governments fault.

[Pathos]

Many schools do suck at teaching. Many pupils don't have attitude to get what they can out of what is provided.

I reckon school kids need a wake call before 5th form. The should be kicked out into the real world and get a real job for a year and get a perspective on how much their education means to them. I had absolutely no idea about reality until I got a proper job as a drain layer over a christmas holiday.

I learnt how decent people treat each other not like the shits at school.
I learnt work means work.
I learnt how important that fornightly check was.

No one in school can learn these things unless they get experience it. This generation of young adults have been babysat from the day they were born and that doesn't help anyone.

[thehollowmen]

arg there are some real issues with education in this country, and not just the schools.

A university 3-4 year degree is now the equivilent of what sixth form was in the 90s. Everybody had it and it doesn't mean too much appart from that you can put in hard slog for 3-4 years.

bluh

we should contract out the running on NCEA and the schools to some strict country where all the work is done to a high level. I can tell you stories about five hour (one essay) exams in high school if you want.

[WINJA]

IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER , WHEN I DID WORK AT SOME LAWYERS OFFICE I ALWAYS PISSED IN THEIR HAND BASIN

[cowpoos]

whats everyone drinking tonight....I'm drinking the rather common DB draught...not a bad beer...but not the best...it was on special...and I can't argue with those economics...

[Hitcher]

IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL BETTER , WHEN I DID WORK AT SOME LAWYERS OFFICE I ALWAYS PISSED IN THEIR HAND BASIN
The first rule of Fight Club is not to talk about Fight Club...

[thehollowmen]

whats everyone drinking tonight

Astrolabe Sauvignon Blanc

good stuff that 2005 vintage.

Unknown vinyard strikes out for gold.. I'd recomend it

[cowpoos]

Astrolabe Sauvignon Blanc

good stuff that 2005 vintage.

Unknown vinyard strikes out for gold.. I'd recomend it


I like the drys...montana has a good sav...I'm on a budjet now I got the new bike...I get more miles out of beer...

[Lou Girardin]

Shakespeare was almost right.
First we kill all the ambulance chasers.

[ManDownUnder]

I'm seriously considering approaching the school(s) our kids go to and letting them know that a kiwi suspension is fine with me.

If I find the school has done something dumb - I'll change schools (let's face it - I wouldn't want my kids to be there otherwise). But up front I'll happily put my trust in the teachers and principals.

I'll also listen to what my kids tell me is going on to get a somewhat balancing opinion but short of my kids being permanently locked out of an education, I can NOT see a point where I would get lawyers involved.

Or did I miss something?
MDU

[Beemer]

I reckon the lawyers are just trying to muscle in on a new income stream! The schools have been doing fine without them all these years, but now you can't look at a kid the wrong way without it going to court, so I suppose the schools that think this is a good idea are only trying to cover their arses.

When I was at school it was the old story about the squeaky wheel getting the oil. The bright kids who did well just shut up and did their work while the underachievers (who go on to excel on the dole, funnily enough) played merry hell with the teachers.

At least we were lucky enough not to have to deal with the mentally disabled or attention deficit kids who are now mainstreamed.

[madboy]

What about the bright kids that were so bored out of their tree that they acted up and took the attention away from the dumbasses the teachers were trying to bring up to average?

NZ is going down the toilet. We are so PC that we measure success by participation. Which works extremely well in the real world. Prospective employers are always thankful that 119 people participated in applying for the position, even more grateful that 5 participated in the interviews. And one extra lucky individual got to participate in WORK.

Life is about winners and losers. Unfortunately NZ is full of whiners and losers. The winners left.

[Skyryder]

The problem is that only the Board of Trustees can expel students. There is a 'process' that must have occured before this can happen. Should the school be in breach of this 'process' then the responsibility will fall on the principle as it is his role to see that the due process has taken place before the student and the offence is placed before the board. The school also has to find a place for the student and this is not always easy.

The day will come when a parent of a well behaved student will commence proceedings against a school. The two issues that come to mind is exam failure where the school will be held accountable for not providing adequote education due to too many disruptive students. The second one will be not providing a safe environment for the student who had been subjected to bullying. This may be physical or text bullying.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

I've never in my few decades on the planet met any 'failures'. I have however seen plenty of schools crap at teaching. Yes, more money should be spent on teachning schools to do their jobs - some are piss poor at it anyhow (probably what you get from a system run by a comittee of parents).

It is often said that: A camel is a horse designed by a committee! :yes:

More money should be spent on: Teachers that do their jobs!

Less money should be spent on: Teachers who do not do their jobs!

It is called: Bulk funding and schools get more money for higher performance!

Opposed vehemently by Unions: The champions of mediocrity!

Lawyers are taking advantage of our stupidity and simply: Growing the business!

Are "we" as a nation going to allow this to continue: YES DAMN IT! :slap: We are such bloody socialist fools! John. :doh:

[Ixion]

It is often said that: A camel is a horse designed by a committee! :yes:

More money should be spent on: Teachers that do their jobs!

Less money should be spent on: Teachers who do not do their jobs!

It is called: Bulk funding and schools get more money for higher performance!

Opposed vehemently by Unions: The champions of mediocrity!

Lawyers are taking advantage of our stupidity and simply: Growing the business!

Are "we" as a nation going to allow this to continue: YES DAMN IT! :slap: We are such bloody socialist fools! John. :doh:

Unions do not oppose bulk funding. Only the *teachers* unions, which are not real unions- they are bourgois pseudo-unions.And unions are never "champions of mediocrity" . Unions want the best for their members, because ultimately that means the best for society. If NZ really was a socialist state , all of these issues would be quickly resolved. (a Kalashnikov up the nose concentrates the mind wonderfully)

[kro]

Its my experience in being immediately related to two teachers, as well as my own observations, that a huge percentage our schools "failures", or "disruptive kids" are primarily a result of poor parenting. No big surprises there.
This is not localised to low socio-economic groups(fancy term for poor people), but is spread across a pretty wide range of folks, and stems mainly from a lack of willingness from the parents to enforce appropriate discipline at home.

The soft cock, tree hugger "no smacking" brigade are steadily destroying the way children view authority in this world, by making children unafraid of consequences, because the consequences are soft, and easy to deal with.
When I stepped out of line as a youngin, I received a short sharp smack across the arm or bottom, and I damn well thought hard about whether I'd repeating the action that earned it. In no way did that upbringing foster violence in me, I have a clean police record, a wife and 2 fantastic children, who are all happy and content, and even though I employ the same methods of discipline on my children, they are excelling, and happy at school, and love their Dad with a passion.

Blame the soft-cock tree huggers and lazy parents, and leave the lawyers to deal with issues that aren't a bandaid for someone elses stuff-up. Its just typical NZ bullshite to pussy foot around the obvious, and try to legislate, instead of taking real action.

[Skyryder]

It is often said that: A camel is a horse designed by a committee! :yes:

More money should be spent on: Teachers that do their jobs!

Less money should be spent on: Teachers who do not do their jobs!

It is called: Bulk funding and schools get more money for higher performance!

Opposed vehemently by Unions: The champions of mediocrity!

Lawyers are taking advantage of our stupidity and simply: Growing the business!

Are "we" as a nation going to allow this to continue: YES DAMN IT! :slap: We are such bloody socialist fools! John. :doh:


At present teachers co-operate not only with teachers from their own school's but also teachers from other schools. Teachers do have a performance base set for them and reviewed by their peers. Peer reviews are taken seriously where professional standards are rigously applied.

Those of the public who see Bulk Funding as a pancea for our education woes have very little idea of how a school works. And there is a 'big' difference between Government's policy on education and how the school applies that policy to educate their students. Many bulk funding proponents are from the buisness and private sector and try and to impose a buisness model in a non buisness environment. To use an analogy a buisness might produce an article which it designs from start to finish but if the raw materials are of poor quality no matter how well designed the product is it will not perform to expected standards. Only a fool would try and fix the problem with a new design. No they would go back to the source of the problem the production of the raw material. The education system in this respect is no different. Bulk funding proponents are trying to fix the problem with a 'redesigned' education system instead of fixing the problem at the raw material source.

The education system has no control over the quality of the 'raw material' They have to deal with what society produces. And production has deterioted since Rodgernomics.


Should bulk funding of teachers saleries ever be introduced that co-operation that now exists in our education system will be permently 'destroyed' and the education of our youth will suffer bedause of it.


Skyryder

PS Old rider wrote. It is often said that: A camel is a horse designed by a committee! :yes:

:no: :no: The committee designated different roles for both knowing full well that either one is unable to perform in all environments.

This country needs a few committees with such wisdom instead of the Buisness Roundtable who only see one solutiuon (competition) market forces for all problems. :bash: :bash:

[oldrider]

Who or what is the business round table? :eyepoke:

Skyrider, you sound just like my sister! :blip:

Got to go now on a 4x4 cruise. :lol: Cheers John.

[Pixie]

I've never in my few decades on the planet met any 'failures'. I have however seen plenty of schools crap at teaching. Yes, more money should be spent on teachning schools to do their jobs - some are piss poor at it anyhow (probably what you get from a system run by a comittee of parents).
Failure doesn't exist in 21st century NZ.
People are just "differently successful"

[Skyryder]

Who or what is the business round table? :eyepoke:

Skyrider, you sound just like my sister! :blip:

Got to go now on a 4x4 cruise. :lol: Cheers John.

NZBR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Business_Roundtable


Sounds like you, me and your sister should get together and try and bring you back from the Dark side of the Force.:dodge: :dodge:

Given any thoughts to a KB meet/bbq down your way?? Perhaps sometime in the new year.

Skyryder

[idb]

....unions are never "champions of mediocrity" . Unions want the best for their members, because ultimately that means the best for society.....
Unions must have changed a lot since I was last the member of one then...............

[oldrider]

NZBR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Business_Roundtable


Sounds like you, me and your sister should get together and try and bring you back from the Dark side of the Force.:dodge: :dodge:

Given any thoughts to a KB meet/bbq down your way?? Perhaps sometime in the new year.

Skyryder

I was being facetious about the round table! :doh:

My sister is a school teacher! (old school) :slap:

No I haven't yet (KB rally) but I have bought a new camera so might be able to try posting pics soon! :yes:

Merry Christmass to you and your's Bernie. :sunny:

[Lou Girardin]

Too many parents are too busy being friends with their kids to be parents.

[Hitcher]

And vice versa?