Careful what you wish for.

[Lou Girardin]

The coalition of the willing, but slightly deranged, want to bring democracy to repressed societies. So the Palestinians have just elected a terrorist group, Hamas, to power in a free and fair election. Bush, Blair etc are choking on their freedom fries.
It could be a good thing though. The IRA changed tack when they saw that they could achieve their goals through political means, Hamas may do the same.

[MisterD]

The IRA changed tack when they saw that they could achieve their goals through political means, Hamas may do the same.

The IRA changed track after 911 when the Septics finally woke up to what Terrorism is and decided that "Give a $ kill an Englishman" tins in Boston bars weren't a quaint expression of their ancestry after all.

Personally I don't buy the line that Gerry Adams is nothing to do with the IRA, he's a murdering b-stard and just trying to get mileage out of a good cop / bad cop routine with Sinn Fein and the IRA.

I do share your hope with regard to Hamas though...

[Cookie]

Excellent title for the thread Lou.

Maybe with Arafat pushing up daisies and Sharon out of action something different just might happen. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

I can't help thinking that the Israelis could have found an easier group of people to try to subordinate. They might be pissing into the wind on this one.

But I hope you are right.

Now where's my packet of Jaffas?

[Bartman10]

I agree lou...

Your heading made me think of this... :whocares: :Offtopic:

King Nothing

Wish I may
Wish I might
Have this wish tonight
Are you satisfied?

Dig for gold
Dig for fame
You dig to make your name
Are you pacified?

All the wants you waste
All the things you've chased

And it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

Just want one thing
Just to play thing king
But the castle crumbled
And you've left with just a name

Where's your crown?
King nothing

Hard and cold
Bought and sold
A heart hard as gold
Are you satisfied

Wish I may
Wish I might
You wish your life away
Are you pacified

All the wants you waste
All the things you've chased

And it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

Where's your crown?
King nothing

I wish I may
I wish I might
Have this wish tonight

I want the star
I want it now
I want it all and I don't care how

Careful what you wish
Careful what you say
Careful what you wish
You may regret it

Careful what you wish
You just might get it

Then it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

And it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

Where's your crown?
King nothing

Just want one thing
Just to play the king
But the castle crumbled
And you've left with just a name

Off to never never land

[Hitcher]

I guess positive thinking is to be encouraged, but these dudes have been at each other's throats for thousands of years. That makes "peace" a bit of a radical concept for them.

[The Stranger]

You need to realign your thinking when thinking about peace in the middle east.

It's like Ford owners. Most people want a car that is reliable, modern, economical and has some level of refinement and can't understand why anyone would therefore purchase a Ford. However what you need to understand is that Ford owners like fixing their vehicle, they like cleaning up oil from their driveway, they like new diffs and gearboxes and relish being the underdog.

In the same vein the palestinians don't want peace. They aren't interested in it at all. It is never going to happen, unless that is, Isreal offers them more assistance with their national pastime.

The rest of us should say a big thank you to Isreal. They keep all the hatred and the war mongers focused away from the rest of the world.

[ManDownUnder]

It's like Ford owners. Most people want a car that is reliable, modern, economical and has some level of refinement and can't understand why anyone would therefore purchase a Ford. However what you need to understand is that Ford owners like fixing their vehicle, they like cleaning up oil from their driveway, they like new diffs and gearboxes and relish being the underdog.


Why did that make me think of the Harley owners group?


In the same vein the palestinians don't want peace. They aren't interested in it at all. It is never going to happen, unless that is, Isreal offers them more assistance with their national pastime.

The rest of us should say a big thank you to Isreal. They keep all the hatred and the war mongers focused away from the rest of the world.

It might be that the quickest route to peace is to empower the most powerful of the militants...

I will be watching the carefully worded statements coming from the burning Bush though (that did happen in the Middle East didn't it?)

[riffer]

Slightly narrow point of view there CaN.

The media reports we receive here are very one-sided.

There's as much bad stuff going on by the Israelis as by the Palestinians.

It will be interesting to see if US & Britain can stand by and let a democratically elected government attempt to take power.

As for USA being a proponent of peace, it's very hypocritical. How do you reconcile "War on Terror" with "World Peace"?

[ManDownUnder]

As for USA being a proponent of peace, it's very hypocritical. How do you reconcile "War on Terror" with "World Peace"?

:niceone: :niceone: :niceone:

Not to mention "proactive defence" (translating to - they might attack us so we can go bomb them first!)

Thank God Bush wasn't in charge during the nuclear standoff years. The glare from the blue green glow over the northern hemisphere would keep me awake at night

[MisterD]

It will be interesting to see if US & Britain can stand by and let a democratically elected government attempt to take power.


Well currently the Palestinians get a fair bit of aid dosh from the US and EU. Hamas seem (from BBC World) to have won the election on the strength of their local social welfare activities, but if the aid disappears, ordinary life for the electorate is going to get worse so this Govt may not last long.

One other concern, while we're at it: It's not without precedent for an extremist bunch of nut-jobs to use a democratic process to gain power then can the whole idea of democracy and start attacking their neighbours. The Jews came off pretty badly the last time that happened too....

[dawnrazor]

The IRA changed track after 911 when the Septics finally woke up to what Terrorism is and decided that "Give a $ kill an Englishman" tins in Boston bars weren't a quaint expression of their ancestry after all.

Personally I don't buy the line that Gerry Adams is nothing to do with the IRA, he's a murdering b-stard and just trying to get mileage out of a good cop / bad cop routine with Sinn Fein and the IRA.

I do share your hope with regard to Hamas though...

I think its fairer to say that 9/11 was a catalyst in the hastened end to the IRA's activities, the good friday peace accord was signed a long time before 9/11. The transfer of arms and power is a process that has been going on in one form or another in Ireland for the guts of a century now. I wouldn't for a moment condone the past actions of the IRA or any other northern irish terriost group (there was at least two loyalists groups very active until recently as well). But I understand the struggle, the English are not blameless in this, its takes two sides to start a conflict after all.

All 9/11 did was raise the profile of terrorism world wide, as someone who has been in belfast and london during bomb strikes and in NYC for 9/11 - I always thought that the 9/11 attacks where in a completely different league of terrorism altogeter (kind of a ultra-terrorism, if that doesn't sound to disrespectful).

As far HAMAS goes, fine lets see what they do - there has been far worse governments elected in the west and we don't have the monoply on despots either.

I always find it interesting how people hate terrorists when there actions effect them or people around them, but have respect for them if they are far away in another conflict. Terrorism on my doorstep = terrorist, terrorism in katmandu = freedom fighters. Example, you express hatred for the IRA, but indifference for HAMAS, 'yet both are on the same path using much the same methords.
It is one of the things that makes bush's war on terror, so ridculous, all that has achieved is make a lot of people around the world nervous of muslims and dark skinned arab types, but that plays right into the hands of the american government. There is nothing like keeping your citizens in fear to keep them in line!

Ask yourself who is terrorising who these days and who is perpetuating it as well - makes good telly and keeps governments in office don't it.

[MisterD]

I always find it interesting how people hate terrorists when there actions effect them or people around them, but have respect for them if they are far away in another conflict. Terrorism on my doorstep = terrorist, terrorism in katmandu = freedom fighters. Example, you express hatred for the IRA, but indifference for HAMAS, 'yet both are on the same path using much the same methords.

I wouldn't say I was indifferent to Hamas, but as you say I have not been directly affected by their actions so I am able to maintain a more detached mindset on them.

Being 1/4 Irish (but considering myself English), I don't think my opinion on the unification of Ireland should carry any weight at all. However the IRA have for a long time been financed by Americans who think they have some right to involvement because their great-great grandad emigrated from there.

[ManDownUnder]

its takes two sides to start a conflict after all.


As a philosophical aside...

What if I walked up and smacked you in the nose, then did it again - and again, and again...

Would the conflict already have (single sidedly) started or would it be held off until you decided you didn't want to be hit any more - and retaliated?

[dawnrazor]

I wouldn't say I was indifferent to Hamas, but as you say I have not been directly affected by their actions so I am able to maintain a more detached mindset on them.

Being 1/4 Irish (but considering myself English), I don't think my opinion on the unification of Ireland should carry any weight at all. However the IRA have for a long time been financed by Americans who think they have some right to involvement because their great-great grandad emigrated from there.

Look heres the thing about ALL americans; ask any americans what nationality they are and 9 out of 10 will prefix american with something eg irish-american, italain-american, native-american etc. You don't get that in other countries, americans are OBSESSED with their roots, and this explains the old country mentality or supporting the boys back in Eire. Just 'cus you don't feel any affinity to being irish don't mean its not hugely important to those irish-americans (no matter what generation) to them the northern irish conflict was very far away, and abstract - presented in retoric and a haze of nostalagia, the consequences and the donations never equated, they thought they where doing right by their ancestoral homeland, something I imagine still goes on today - so heck knows where the funds go now.

I grew up in 70's Ireland, my dad was from Northern Ireland, I clearly remember the news every night reporting that days atrocities, I know people that have been hurt or effected by the years of violence, but I can't hold a grudge and be angry. I believe its over, and hope at least one corner of the world can settle down and find peace.

[Drunken Monkey]

All we need now is Sharon to be replaced by some ultra-orthodox hardline Jew. Can anyone say powder-keg?

[MisterD]

I grew up in 70's Ireland, my dad was from Northern Ireland, I clearly remember the news every night reporting that days atrocities, I know people that have been hurt or effected by the years of violence, but I can't hold a grudge and be angry. I believe its over, and hope at least one corner of the world can settle down and find peace.

Unfortunately I don't do forgive and forget. Warrington is my old home town and I just feel sick to see Adams and Co strutting around like they're some kind of international statesmen.

[dawnrazor]

As a philosophical aside...

What if I walked up and smacked you in the nose, then did it again - and again, and again...

Would the conflict already have (single sidedly) started or would it be held off until you decided you didn't want to be hit any more - and retaliated?

According to dictionary.com "conflict" is defined thus:

1. A state of open, often prolonged fighting; a battle or war.
2. A state of disharmony between incompatible or antithetical persons,
ideas, or interests; a clash.
3. Psychology. A psychic struggle, often unconscious, resulting from the
opposition or simultaneous functioning of mutually exclusive impulses,
desires, or tendencies.
4. Opposition between characters or forces in a work of drama or fiction,
especially opposition that motivates or shapes the action of the plot.

The semantics of the word conflict would imply that it entails two parties or more enacting violence upon each other.

Your example is abuse, terror, opression, etc. There is no conflict as there is no opposition to your actions. However once I kick you in the balls -hey we have conflict and a squeakie little voice and the crying and puking, actually thats not conflict, thats game over. :done:

[ManDownUnder]

According to dictionary.com "conflict" is defined thus:

1. A state of open, often prolonged fighting; a battle or war.
2. A state of disharmony between incompatible or antithetical persons,
ideas, or interests; a clash.

The semantics of the word conflict would imply that it entails two parties or more enacting violence upon each other.

Your example is abuse, terror, opression, etc. There is no conflict as there is no opposition to your actions.

I agree with the terror abuse definition entirely, but add that it's simply a precusor to conflict (as is evindent so many times around the world)

I'd say my example falls nicely into your definition #2 then. There is clearly a state of disharmony and the two people involved must have opposing views.

In the case Person 2 doesn't want to fight back - and turns the other cheek
Person 1) "I'm going to hit you again"
Person 2) "I'm going to put up with the suffering and let you hit me"

or where both wants to pound seven pounds of snot out of each other there is a self evident conflict and falls into definition #1 (as you mention in your retailiation scenario)

[dawnrazor]

Unfortunately I don't do forgive and forget. Warrington is my old home town and I just feel sick to see Adams and Co strutting around like they're some kind of international statesmen.

You better get used to it, 'cus if history has taught us anything it says that leaders like this will appeal to the downtrodden masses, the disenfranchised and the poor - offer them the sun moon and stars and next thing you know we have a new government. Hitler did it. The BNP are doing it in the north of England.

Don't be under any illusions that gerry adams would be the first irish leader with "armed struggle" connections either, I can think of several.

You should really try letting it go a little, its a brave new world out there, I'm not a fan of sine fine but we live in democracy after all, the same system that allows tony blair into office allows gerry adams a seat in government, if you can't see that if it wasn't so we would be worse off, then sorry. The other alternative if facism or dictatorships, neither having the best of track records.

[Lias]

Given that America is nothing but a puppet state of Israel, I expect that this will mostly be ignored in Washington. They will denounce Hamas as terrorists, refuse to talk to them, and continue with thie mass murder in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Israel would be a much nicer country if it was a radioactive wasteland.. I think the cockroaches would be better citizens of the world than the Zionists are. God how I wish someone would give Al'Qaeda nukes..

[dawnrazor]

I agree with the terror abuse definition entirely, but add that it's simply a precusor to conflict (as is evindent so many times around the world)

I'd say my example falls nicely into your definition #2 then. There is clearly a state of disharmony and the two people involved must have opposing views.

In the case Person 2 doesn't want to fight back - and turns the other cheek
Person 1) "I'm going to hit you again"
Person 2) "I'm going to put up with the suffering and let you hit me"

or where both wants to pound seven pounds of snot out of each other there is a self evident conflict and falls into definition #1 (as you mention in your retailiation scenario)

Yeah I did consider this - and I guess as much as you can't have a single sided conflict (thats an opinion) you can have a conflict between two people where one doesn't react in kind. So in your example my inaction to your initial action is the confliction. Its at this stage you need to prefix, this will be unopposed conflict, as I am not retaliating in kind but one assumes I am not enjoying the beating and am as so conflicted.

Now what was the question again, I'm conflicted!

[dawnrazor]

Given that America is nothing but a puppet state of Israel....

Did you mean that to be the other way round by any chance, 'cus that don't really make sense as it stands

[Ixion]

No, it makes sense. I understand where he's coming from. Not sure I agree, but it's an arguable position

[MisterD]

You better get used to it, .

Oh I'm used to it alright


Don't be under any illusions that gerry adams would be the first irish leader with "armed struggle" connections either, I can think of several.

I can think of one other, but GA is the one I've grown up listening to (or actors voice the words of)


You should really try letting it go a little,

I agree that I do have to lump it, but there's no way I'm ever going to like it. It saddens me that the moderates on both sides have been replaced by Sinn Fein on the one hand and Rev Ian "Dr No!" Paisley on the other.

[dawnrazor]

Oh I'm used to it alright



I can think of one other, but GA is the one I've grown up listening to (or actors voice the words of)



I agree that I do have to lump it, but there's no way I'm ever going to like it. It saddens me that the moderates on both sides have been replaced by Sinn Fein on the one hand and Rev Ian "Dr No!" Paisley on the other.

Charles J Haughey (sp) Prime minister of republic of Ireland for Fine Fail, for several terms was arrested for gun running in his youth and has long had republican sympities, black days, the man was an evil fish faced cunt.

The only credit I'll give GA, is the fact that he is a very intelligent man.

[MisterD]

Charles J Haughey (sp) Prime minister of republic of Ireland for Fine Fail, for several terms was arrested for gun running in his youth and has long had republican sympities, black days, the man was an evil fish faced cunt.



An interesting debate and I'm learning new stuff as well. Gotta bling you for that, and the poetic turn of phrase. If you hadn't said you were Irish that would give it away for sure!

[Lou Girardin]

Lias is right as I understand the situation. The US needs one strong ally in the Middle East, Israel takes advantage of that fact. In addition, US Jews are a very powerful lobby group, even if they're not dedicated enough to live in Israel. So US pollies are terrified of upsetting them.

[Buster]

Hey guys, from my personal experience in these "territories", these people have a deep hate which runs further than some cultures can imagine. It runs through generations and then some. Violence is not the answer but when your backs against the wall it can seem like the only option.

[dawnrazor]

An interesting debate and I'm learning new stuff as well. Gotta bling you for that, and the poetic turn of phrase. If you hadn't said you were Irish that would give it away for sure!

Check out the photo, gives me the shivers - Irelands economic up turn didn't happen until this bastard was truly out of the picture, he makes muldoon look like a angel.

Sad and sorry days

[Skyryder]

I guess positive thinking is to be encouraged, but these dudes have been at each other's throats for thousands of years. That makes "peace" a bit of a radical concept for them.

The current problems stemm from the first world war in which Churchil was the archetect. Posted breif details on that here somewhere. Problem with these guys is that as they grow up they want a rest so start doing deals but the younger generation "bring it all on' again. If Hamas can not keep it's youth in check the same probles will resurface. If this happens they hve only themselves to blame via the Infada Think how it's spelt. They sent their own kids out onto the street. Going to have one hell of a problem to stop that if their youth don't like what they are doing.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Check out the photo, gives me the shivers - Irelands economic up turn didn't happen until this bastard was truly out of the picture, he makes muldoon look like a angel.

Sad and sorry days

Who is he? The only one I know is Adams and Paisly..........surely not. He'd aged if that is him.

Skyryder

[Karma]

I'm not a fan of sine fine


Charles J Haughey (sp) Prime minister of republic of Ireland for Fine Fail

Having some problems with the spell checker there are we? :scratch:

[Winston001]

I guess positive thinking is to be encouraged, but these dudes have been at each other's throats for thousands of years. That makes "peace" a bit of a radical concept for them.

While this is incorrect, unfortunately it is a belief held by most people outside the Middle East.

In fact before 1948 the Jews and the Arabs in Palestine coexisted peacefully. It goes back to the Diaspora in AD 135 when the Romans exiled the Jews from Israel. This is the original reason for the large Jewish populations which came into being in Europe - before the Nazis got to work.

Jewish people drifted back over the centuries but Arabs were the majority. Then in the late 19th century Zionism arose with the belief that Jews should return. They raised money, purchased land and settled on it. This turned to a flood after 1945.

Upon the creation of Israel in May 1948 the massed armies of the surrounding arab nations attacked. The local arabs (Palestinians), being promised lots of land etc as the spoils of war, gleefully joined in. Unfortunately they lost.

Suddenly (or so it seemed to them) Palestinian Arabs were strangers and without power in a land they had lived in for centuries. The Arab states were embarrased and didn't want them either.

Thus we have an unhappy group of mostly poor people with nowhere to go and a grudge. This has been encouraged and fed by Islamic radicals and terrorists/guerillas. Indeed today hated of Israel is taught in Gaza schools - what chance do these poor kids have?

What the media don't bother to say is that 19.5% of the population of Israel is Arab and that these Arabs live peacefully with their neighbours. Not all Arabs are Palestinians - far from it.

The USA gives $500 million of aid to the Palestinians annually - but not if Hamas is waiting at the tap. Interesting times.