Careful what you wish for.

**Lou Girardin** · 27th January 2006, 07:22

The coalition of the willing, but slightly deranged, want to bring democracy to repressed societies. So the Palestinians have just elected a terrorist group, Hamas, to power in a free and fair election. Bush, Blair etc are choking on their freedom fries.
It could be a good thing though. The IRA changed tack when they saw that they could achieve their goals through political means, Hamas may do the same.

**MisterD** · 27th January 2006, 07:29

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

The IRA changed tack when they saw that they could achieve their goals through political means, Hamas may do the same.

The IRA changed track after 911 when the Septics finally woke up to what Terrorism is and decided that "Give a $ kill an Englishman" tins in Boston bars weren't a quaint expression of their ancestry after all.

Personally I don't buy the line that Gerry Adams is nothing to do with the IRA, he's a murdering b-stard and just trying to get mileage out of a good cop / bad cop routine with Sinn Fein and the IRA.

I do share your hope with regard to Hamas though...

**Cookie** · 27th January 2006, 07:45

Excellent title for the thread Lou.

Maybe with Arafat pushing up daisies and Sharon out of action something different just might happen. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

I can't help thinking that the Israelis could have found an easier group of people to try to subordinate. They might be pissing into the wind on this one.

But I hope you are right.

Now where's my packet of Jaffas?

**Bartman10** · 27th January 2006, 07:47

I agree lou...

Your heading made me think of this...

King Nothing

Wish I may
Wish I might
Have this wish tonight
Are you satisfied?

Dig for gold
Dig for fame
You dig to make your name
Are you pacified?

All the wants you waste
All the things you've chased

And it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

Just want one thing
Just to play thing king
But the castle crumbled
And you've left with just a name

Where's your crown?
King nothing

Hard and cold
Bought and sold
A heart hard as gold
Are you satisfied

Wish I may
Wish I might
You wish your life away
Are you pacified

All the wants you waste
All the things you've chased

And it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

Where's your crown?
King nothing

I wish I may
I wish I might
Have this wish tonight

I want the star
I want it now
I want it all and I don't care how

Careful what you wish
Careful what you say
Careful what you wish
You may regret it

Careful what you wish
You just might get it

Then it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

And it all crashes down
And you break your crown
And you point your finger
But there's no one around

Where's your crown?
King nothing

Just want one thing
Just to play the king
But the castle crumbled
And you've left with just a name

Off to never never land

**Hitcher** · 27th January 2006, 07:50

I guess positive thinking is to be encouraged, but these dudes have been at each other's throats for thousands of years. That makes "peace" a bit of a radical concept for them.

**The Stranger:Me** · 27th January 2006, 08:18

You need to realign your thinking when thinking about peace in the middle east.

It's like Ford owners. Most people want a car that is reliable, modern, economical and has some level of refinement and can't understand why anyone would therefore purchase a Ford. However what you need to understand is that Ford owners like fixing their vehicle, they like cleaning up oil from their driveway, they like new diffs and gearboxes and relish being the underdog.

In the same vein the palestinians don't want peace. They aren't interested in it at all. It is never going to happen, unless that is, Isreal offers them more assistance with their national pastime.

The rest of us should say a big thank you to Isreal. They keep all the hatred and the war mongers focused away from the rest of the world.

**ManDownUnder** · 27th January 2006, 08:27

Originally Posted by CaN

It's like Ford owners. Most people want a car that is reliable, modern, economical and has some level of refinement and can't understand why anyone would therefore purchase a Ford. However what you need to understand is that Ford owners like fixing their vehicle, they like cleaning up oil from their driveway, they like new diffs and gearboxes and relish being the underdog.

Why did that make me think of the Harley owners group?

Originally Posted by CaN

In the same vein the palestinians don't want peace. They aren't interested in it at all. It is never going to happen, unless that is, Isreal offers them more assistance with their national pastime.

The rest of us should say a big thank you to Isreal. They keep all the hatred and the war mongers focused away from the rest of the world.

It might be that the quickest route to peace is to empower the most powerful of the militants...

I will be watching the carefully worded statements coming from the burning Bush though (that did happen in the Middle East didn't it?)

**riffer** · 27th January 2006, 08:38

Slightly narrow point of view there CaN.

The media reports we receive here are very one-sided.

There's as much bad stuff going on by the Israelis as by the Palestinians.

It will be interesting to see if US & Britain can stand by and let a democratically elected government attempt to take power.

As for USA being a proponent of peace, it's very hypocritical. How do you reconcile "War on Terror" with "World Peace"?

**ManDownUnder** · 27th January 2006, 08:43

Originally Posted by riffer

As for USA being a proponent of peace, it's very hypocritical. How do you reconcile "War on Terror" with "World Peace"?

Not to mention "proactive defence" (translating to - they might attack us so we can go bomb them first!)

Thank God Bush wasn't in charge during the nuclear standoff years. The glare from the blue green glow over the northern hemisphere would keep me awake at night

**MisterD** · 27th January 2006, 08:49

Originally Posted by riffer

It will be interesting to see if US & Britain can stand by and let a democratically elected government attempt to take power.

Well currently the Palestinians get a fair bit of aid dosh from the US and EU. Hamas seem (from BBC World) to have won the election on the strength of their local social welfare activities, but if the aid disappears, ordinary life for the electorate is going to get worse so this Govt may not last long.

One other concern, while we're at it: It's not without precedent for an extremist bunch of nut-jobs to use a democratic process to gain power then can the whole idea of democracy and start attacking their neighbours. The Jews came off pretty badly the last time that happened too....

**dawnrazor** · 27th January 2006, 08:59

Originally Posted by MisterD

The IRA changed track after 911 when the Septics finally woke up to what Terrorism is and decided that "Give a $ kill an Englishman" tins in Boston bars weren't a quaint expression of their ancestry after all.

Personally I don't buy the line that Gerry Adams is nothing to do with the IRA, he's a murdering b-stard and just trying to get mileage out of a good cop / bad cop routine with Sinn Fein and the IRA.

I do share your hope with regard to Hamas though...

I think its fairer to say that 9/11 was a catalyst in the hastened end to the IRA's activities, the good friday peace accord was signed a long time before 9/11. The transfer of arms and power is a process that has been going on in one form or another in Ireland for the guts of a century now. I wouldn't for a moment condone the past actions of the IRA or any other northern irish terriost group (there was at least two loyalists groups very active until recently as well). But I understand the struggle, the English are not blameless in this, its takes two sides to start a conflict after all.

All 9/11 did was raise the profile of terrorism world wide, as someone who has been in belfast and london during bomb strikes and in NYC for 9/11 - I always thought that the 9/11 attacks where in a completely different league of terrorism altogeter (kind of a ultra-terrorism, if that doesn't sound to disrespectful).

As far HAMAS goes, fine lets see what they do - there has been far worse governments elected in the west and we don't have the monoply on despots either.

I always find it interesting how people hate terrorists when there actions effect them or people around them, but have respect for them if they are far away in another conflict. Terrorism on my doorstep = terrorist, terrorism in katmandu = freedom fighters. Example, you express hatred for the IRA, but indifference for HAMAS, 'yet both are on the same path using much the same methords.
It is one of the things that makes bush's war on terror, so ridculous, all that has achieved is make a lot of people around the world nervous of muslims and dark skinned arab types, but that plays right into the hands of the american government. There is nothing like keeping your citizens in fear to keep them in line!

Ask yourself who is terrorising who these days and who is perpetuating it as well - makes good telly and keeps governments in office don't it.

**MisterD** · 27th January 2006, 09:19

Originally Posted by dawnrazor

I always find it interesting how people hate terrorists when there actions effect them or people around them, but have respect for them if they are far away in another conflict. Terrorism on my doorstep = terrorist, terrorism in katmandu = freedom fighters. Example, you express hatred for the IRA, but indifference for HAMAS, 'yet both are on the same path using much the same methords.

I wouldn't say I was indifferent to Hamas, but as you say I have not been directly affected by their actions so I am able to maintain a more detached mindset on them.

Being 1/4 Irish (but considering myself English), I don't think my opinion on the unification of Ireland should carry any weight at all. However the IRA have for a long time been financed by Americans who think they have some right to involvement because their great-great grandad emigrated from there.

**ManDownUnder** · 27th January 2006, 09:26

Originally Posted by dawnrazor

its takes two sides to start a conflict after all.

As a philosophical aside...

What if I walked up and smacked you in the nose, then did it again - and again, and again...

Would the conflict already have (single sidedly) started or would it be held off until you decided you didn't want to be hit any more - and retaliated?

**dawnrazor** · 27th January 2006, 10:09

Originally Posted by MisterD

I wouldn't say I was indifferent to Hamas, but as you say I have not been directly affected by their actions so I am able to maintain a more detached mindset on them.

Being 1/4 Irish (but considering myself English), I don't think my opinion on the unification of Ireland should carry any weight at all. However the IRA have for a long time been financed by Americans who think they have some right to involvement because their great-great grandad emigrated from there.

Look heres the thing about ALL americans; ask any americans what nationality they are and 9 out of 10 will prefix american with something eg irish-american, italain-american, native-american etc. You don't get that in other countries, americans are OBSESSED with their roots, and this explains the old country mentality or supporting the boys back in Eire. Just 'cus you don't feel any affinity to being irish don't mean its not hugely important to those irish-americans (no matter what generation) to them the northern irish conflict was very far away, and abstract - presented in retoric and a haze of nostalagia, the consequences and the donations never equated, they thought they where doing right by their ancestoral homeland, something I imagine still goes on today - so heck knows where the funds go now.

I grew up in 70's Ireland, my dad was from Northern Ireland, I clearly remember the news every night reporting that days atrocities, I know people that have been hurt or effected by the years of violence, but I can't hold a grudge and be angry. I believe its over, and hope at least one corner of the world can settle down and find peace.