Campbell Live tonight 22/02/06

[sAsLEX]

Who else watched??

Was an interesting debate over the unbundling of the local loop, with Campbell the slingshot lady, grand old teresa and some minister all having there say.

What I found interesting was how for such a high paid CEO I thought Teresa got shat on by Campbell, and was even more suprised by how well the Government guy spoke.

From the gist of what the gunnmint dude said Telecon has stepped on some toes, and was not impressed with the sudden change in stance the day before Aunty Helens announcement over broadband, and expect changes to the broadband market around the middle of this year.

[Colapop]

Mr Cunliffe did speak well but what do you expect - that's what he's paid to do. If he didn't talk good he wouldna got peeps ta vote for him.

[WINJA]

i was well impressed with dermott notingham on fair go , he made fair go look a bit stupid

[Finn]

Terresa Gutting was a political appointment. With all the man hating women in Government, they needed an ugly women to front Telecom.

She certainly doesn't pull the strings and has absolutely no presence. I've met her once and she reminded me of a depressed housewife. With the monopoly Telecom has even Crazy Steve could run it successfully.

[N4CR]

i THINK TELECOM ARE A BUNCH OF COCKSTINKERS WHO JUST STEAL ALL OUR MONEY AND LOBBY THE GOVT TO KEEP THE MONOPOLY.

Good to see her getting owned, most of the crap they said they had accomplished was complete bs and it was good to see johnny having a fact sheet infront of him to back it all up and rip them apart.

And that entry level plan being cheapest shit they spouted... $40 or whatever for the latest 'free upgraded' 2mbit.. yep okay WITH A CAP THAT CAN BE GONE IN LESS THAN A FEW MINUTES DOWNLOADING!

[sAsLEX]

I liked her saying " but but the benchmarks" when every Non- telecon piece of literature I have read has suggested that we are a backwards Hicksville for not unbundling, and we are still the only one in the OCED not too (not counting Mexico.....but their all drunk on Tequila so dont use the net, or are busy trying to get in to the states.)

[WINJA]

With the monopoly Telecom has even Crazy Steve could run it successfully.
HE COULD , HED JUST STAB PEOPLE IN THE HAND OR EYE THAT DIDNT DO WHAT THEIR TOLD , DO YOU THINK CAMBELL WOULDA BEEN SUCH A SMARTARSE WITH A SPOOK HOLDING A SCREWDRIVER SITTING OPPOSITE

[oldrider]

More speed better quality lower prices! let them claw each others eyes out, bring on the competition.
Give them an equal playing field. :shifty: Or at least a little bit equal! :Playnice: John.

[far queue]

Why can't Telecom do what they want, and what's it got to do with the government?

The government owned the whole lot (NZ Post Office) and sold it all off. As a result Telecom is now a private company. As a private company they can offer whatever services they want, and charge what they like for it, just as any other private company can. If you're not happy with what they offer, then you can go to another company (EG Vodaphone, TelstraClear). It's not Telecom's problem that no other company can offer the full range of services that Telecom can. Telecom is simply making the most of what it bought off the government. Yes, it’s a monopoly, that’s what it bought off the government.

Not happy? Oh, well too bad, that's how it is. Our government cocked up and sold off the family jewels way back in 1987, and now it wants to dictate what the new owner can do with those jewels. Telstra and co not happy? Of course not, they want to make more money for themselves, they’re not in for you and I either. Vodaphone and Telecom fixing prices with each other? Yep, probably, just like the petrol companies do.

I'm not happy with the way Telecom goes about business either, or the disgusting profits it makes, or the exorbitant money Obersturmbannfuhrer Gattung gets paid. But I can do no more about it than anyone else. Blame the government, they cocked up.

[Karma]

i THINK TELECOM ARE A BUNCH OF COCKSTINKERS WHO JUST STEAL ALL OUR MONEY AND LOBBY THE GOVT TO KEEP THE MONOPOLY.

Easy fella... management are one thing... the workers are something else


And that entry level plan being cheapest shit they spouted... $40 or whatever for the latest 'free upgraded' 2mbit.. yep okay WITH A CAP THAT CAN BE GONE IN LESS THAN A FEW MINUTES DOWNLOADING!

I agree with you on this, but the management don't listen to the front line :no:

[DirtMad]

I have their "flat rate" adsl plan, the thing that rides me is that I can only use 10gig worth of data in a month before they throw me back to dial up speed... A n increased m/bit download speed in april aint really worth 5/8th of fuckall to me if theyre not substantially increasing my 10gig per month "flat rate" plan. :moon:

[Ixion]

Why can't Telecom do what they want, and what's it got to do with the government?

..,,,

So, why can't the government (aka the people) do what it wants. The government sold the family silver, the government can take it back. Nationalise the bastidges. The current obsession that nothing may be allowed to interfere with private profit is poppycock.

[Karma]

I have their "flat rate" adsl plan, the thing that rides me is that I can only use 10gig worth of data in a month before they throw me back to dial up speed... A n increased m/bit download speed in april aint really worth 5/8th of fuckall to me if theyre not substantially increasing my 10gig per month "flat rate" plan. :moon:

Well answers on a postcard... if enough people ask then they might do something about it...

[skidMark]

our copper phone lines won't take that kind of data being shoved down them to get speeds like aussie etc... we need to change to fibre optics....and they don't wanna spend that large amount of money

MA

[The Stranger]

What do you do if you make a cock up?
I try my best to put it right when I make one, particularly if it affects someone else.
So should we not expect the government to do the same?

And whilst the government did sell Telecom it still, like you and I, should opperate within the laws of the land. Telecom openly and wontonly flout these laws and should be held to account.

[miSTa]

Why can't Telecom do what they want, and what's it got to do with the government?

It's due to what was called the Kiwi Share or something, IIRC it's called something else now but the basic idea is the same.

[Back Fire]

our copper phone lines won't take that kind of data being shoved down them to get speeds like aussie etc... we need to change to fibre optics....and they don't wanna spend that large amount of money

MA

this is the only time in the history of this site you are going to get green bling for me!! To true

[far queue]

So, why can't the government (aka the people) do what it wants. The government sold the family silver, the government can take it back. Nationalise the bastidges. The current obsession that nothing may be allowed to interfere with private profit is poppycock.
I don’t believe you can sell something, and then just say I’ll have it back now thanks because I don’t like what you’re doing with it. The government had to buy the rails back off Toll, and had to buy its way back into AirNZ. Telecom is worth a hell of a lot more now than it was in 1987, and the government wont be buying it back anytime soon.


And whilst the government did sell Telecom it still, like you and I, should opperate within the laws of the land. Telecom openly and wontonly flout these laws and should be held to account.
What laws is Telecom wontonly flouting?


It's due to what was called the Kiwi Share or something, IIRC it's called something else now but the basic idea is the same.
Yes it was called the Kiwi Share, and I think it still is. As far as I know this mainly related to restricting price increases on residential lines to the rate of inflation and not allowing local call charging on residential lines. I could be wrong on this. I assume that if Telecom had actually gone against its legal obligations the government would have done something.

[Karma]

One of the thing that really gets me is that people moan about Telecom all the time, and yet your banks charge you 15c everytime you buy something... and charge you 16% on a loan or credit card and only give you 6% interest on a savings account.

If you wanna know who's really making money, talk to the banks eh...

[Ixion]

I don’t believe you can sell something, and then just say I’ll have it back now thanks because I don’t like what you’re doing with it. The government had to buy the rails back off Toll, and had to buy its way back into AirNZ. Telecom is worth a hell of a lot more now than it was in 1987, and the government wont be buying it back anytime soon.
,,

Of course you can. Any economic system is justifed ONLY by the benefit which the people derive from it. If the people would derive more benefit from a nationalised telecommunications industry (as it was for years before that idiot Douglas gave it away to his mates ) than from having the industry in private hands, then the government not only can repossess it, but has a duty to do so. Only question is whether the present "owners" get any compensation, Me, being a communist, I say "No - put the buggers up against a wall and shoot them, that'll stop their whining". But others may be mre wimpish. After the second world war dozens of businesses were nationalised here and in the UK.

Whether they will is of course another matter. The present government, and opposition are well and truely in the pockets of international capitalism, they (and you) are bought sold and delivered. *Your* only function in this economic system my friend is to pay the bills , by means of the process where only a tiny fraction of the fruits of your labour are aactually returned to you.

[miSTa]

One of the thing that really gets me is that people moan about Telecom all the time, and yet your banks charge you 15c everytime you buy something... and charge you 16% on a loan or credit card and only give you 6% interest on a savings account.

Don't what bank you're with but I pay nothing. As for credit cards - they're optional, if you don't like the interest rate either pay it of in full or don't use it.

[MisterD]

our copper phone lines won't take that kind of data being shoved down them to get speeds like aussie etc... we need to change to fibre optics....and they don't wanna spend that large amount of money

MA

You'd be surprised what you can shove down a good ole twisted pair, the main problem we've got it the combination of copper and a long distance to the local exchange.

It's only right that the government legislates to unbundle the local loop, Tcom didn't build the infrastructure,the country did...

[far queue]

It's only right that the government legislates to unbundle the local loop, Tcom didn't build the infrastructure,the country did...
Yep, we did, and then sold it. The government doesn't own it anymore, they took their money, and people are now whinging to Telecom about it. Telecom can do what they like with their property, why whould they want to let their opposition in. And it's no good complaining to the government about something they did nearly 20 years ago. Bit late to be whining now, the horse has well and truly bolted.

[MisterD]

Yep, we did, and then sold it. The government doesn't own it anymore,

No, but the government still runs the country, sets the rules, defines the playing field. The monopoly situation was state created, and it can be state-broken. Telecom will still retain their asset, and they will still make money on it.

What we are talking about is forcing Tcom to sell access to their lines, rather than just allowing others to re-sell their services.

[far queue]

No, but the government still runs the country, sets the rules, defines the playing field. The monopoly situation was state created, and it can be state-broken. Telecom will still retain their asset, and they will still make money on it.

What we are talking about is forcing Tcom to sell access to their lines, rather than just allowing others to re-sell their services.
I'm of the opinion that the government shouldn't be meddling in the affairs of individuals, companies, etc. There are laws and regulations which we all have to abide by, and as long as none of those are being broken then the government needs to keep its nose out. The government did something real dumb when it sold Telecom, but sell it did, and it shouldn't have right to now dictate how the private company is now run.

Yep, sure it would be good if there was more competition. Prices would come down and services would go up. But the government didn't allow for that to happen when it sold everything off, lock stock and barrel.

We have to work within the laws and regulations we have, and those laws and regulations say that Telecom isn't doing anything wrong. Morally it may not be right, but legally it is. I don't have any faith in any large organisation to do the right thing morally, they're all in it for the money, and will screw us all as much as they can to make more money. Some of these companies also treat their own staff the same way. But as long as they're doing everything by the rules then there's not a lot that can be done.

[Warren]

This is not about the government interfering with public companies "unlawfully". When the govt sold Telecom there was also the kiwishare agreement (because telecom is a monopoly, and will abuse it's position without the agreement). I do not know much about the kiwi share but I am pretty sure that telecom has to set certain goals and achieve them or else the govt can take action.

[far queue]

This is not about the government interfering with public companies "unlawfully".
I'm not talking about whether or not it's "lawful" for the Govt to dick about with private companies. The Govt can make laws to please themselves, and have done so in the past, often slipping a new one through on the sly in the middle of the night if they think it might not be popular. I'm talking about it not being "right" for the Govt to meddle in the affairs of individuals and private companies. The difference between what's legally right and what's morally right.

This isn't just about Telecom it's about the rights of the people and business. Telecom are playing within the rules and are within their rights to do as they have been. It's not morally right for them to screw us all, but I don't believe they're actually doing anything outside the rules. As I said earlier, I don't believe any large business has any morals when it comes to making money. Also, I don't beleive the MP's have morals either. They just tell the lies they have to in order to get and keep their jobs.


When the govt sold Telecom there was also the kiwishare agreement (because telecom is a monopoly, and will abuse it's position without the agreement).
Yes they're a monopoly, and yes they will abuse it, as will any other large business. See above RE morals.


I do not know much about the kiwi share but I am pretty sure that telecom has to set certain goals and achieve them or else the govt can take action.
Yes they have set goals with govt, and they have achieved them. Telecom are very good at following the rules to the letter, often to their interpretation of the letter. That's why they have lots of lawyers and accountants to make sure the rules are followed to the best advantage of Telecom - just like all the other big companies.

[Lou Girardin]

Terresa Gutting was a political appointment. With all the man hating women in Government, they needed an ugly women to front Telecom.

She certainly doesn't pull the strings and has absolutely no presence. I've met her once and she reminded me of a depressed housewife. With the monopoly Telecom has even Crazy Steve could run it successfully.

You mean that our Govt got the owners to select Gattung as CEO?
They must have more influence overseas than I thought.

[Lou Girardin]

When a privately owned company is holding back the economic developement of this country, changes need to be made.
And the Govt (the Nat's I believe) that sold the local loop needs to be regularly shamed.

[Finn]

You mean that our Govt got the owners to select Gattung as CEO?
They must have more influence overseas than I thought.

I meant the Telecom board made the appointment. I wasn't using the term "political" literally however you just never know what this Government is capable of. Lefties are very nasty people.

[k14]

Obviously Mr Far Queue is a telecon employee and has been brainwashed like the rest of their employees.

My thoughts on the reasons why the government is stepping in is because their anti-competitive behaviour is screwing up the countries economy. Due to the fact that telecon has such exhorbitantly priced and low bandwidth "broadband" plans is crippling many businesses trying to keep up with overseas customers etc. This is a very major issue for this country and the telecommunications infrastructure is one of those things that the government has to keep an eye on cause it is imperative to this countries wellbeing. Just the same as the power generation/transmission infrastructure. This is fairly heavily regulated which is just as important as the telecomms infrastructure and one of those essential services that needs government input. My 2c anyway.

[Grahameeboy]

Why can't Telecom do what they want, and what's it got to do with the government?

The government owned the whole lot (NZ Post Office) and sold it all off. As a result Telecom is now a private company. As a private company they can offer whatever services they want, and charge what they like for it, just as any other private company can. If you're not happy with what they offer, then you can go to another company (EG Vodaphone, TelstraClear). It's not Telecom's problem that no other company can offer the full range of services that Telecom can. Telecom is simply making the most of what it bought off the government. Yes, it’s a monopoly, that’s what it bought off the government.

Not happy? Oh, well too bad, that's how it is. Our government cocked up and sold off the family jewels way back in 1987, and now it wants to dictate what the new owner can do with those jewels. Telstra and co not happy? Of course not, they want to make more money for themselves, they’re not in for you and I either. Vodaphone and Telecom fixing prices with each other? Yep, probably, just like the petrol companies do.

I'm not happy with the way Telecom goes about business either, or the disgusting profits it makes, or the exorbitant money Obersturmbannfuhrer Gattung gets paid. But I can do no more about it than anyone else. Blame the government, they cocked up.

I see your point........Govt is not consistent...they ploughed $800million of our money into AirNZ, but will not get involved in saving the engineer's jobs to avoid the work going off shore........this to me is a more important issue.

Yes we are behind but big deal.......as you say there are options for people to go elsewhere......we do have a small population for the size of the country....slightly larger than UK with 58 Million which makes a difference.

[Karma]

Obviously Mr Far Queue is a telecon employee and has been brainwashed like the rest of their employees.

You quite clearly havn't been through a telecom training session... otherwise you'd know that they are the sun and the moon, and above all Telecom loves NZ like NZ loves Telecom.






But seriously...

Telecom holding back NZ?

Rubbish... what really holds back NZ is NZ.... sure Rugby is great, and chilling at the beach is cool... but why are your kids not getting an education similar to that of other countries? IT is barely even taught in many primary schools, neither are foreign languages (is there a use for Maori outside NZ?), and how about the sciences? Perhaps if NZ wants to grow mentally and economically they should concentrate on their education system rather than blaming Telecom for the fact this country can't compete.

My personal view is that if Telecom unbundled the local loop it would make no difference to 50% of the population... the only people that would be offered cheaper plans are those in Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch. Look at the higher speed plans in the UK by companies like Bulldog.... 24MBps... fuck that's fast... but only if you live within 1kilometre of an enabled exchange... which equates to about 2% of the population...

All I can ask of the community is that if you've got a complaint to make then please do it in writing, as the poor phone monkey you speak to when you phone up can't do jack shit about it :blank:

Erm... I think that's it :niceone:

[sAsLEX]

All I can ask of the community is that if you've got a complaint to make then please do it in writing, as the poor phone monkey you speak to when you phone up can't do jack shit about it :blank:




and they are probally in India and cant speak jack all english!

[riffer]

Am I to understand that unbundling the local loop is the telecommunications equivalent of separating the power companies from the line companies?

I've never quite understood why the telecommunications business and lines business was sold to the same company.

Could it be that the govt. could nationalise the phone lines themselves, and this could be run separately?

And would we then have a situation similar to what we have currently with electricity, where the companies are ratching the prices up to allow for the infrastructure work we need to compete in the next 20 years?

It's all very well wanting fast internet, but in the end, there's not many of us in NZ to pay for it. Look at what's happened to the roads...


oh, and Lou - it was a Labour government that sold Telecom in 1990.

[Karma]

and they are probally in India and cant speak jack all english!

Nup... all NZ based.

[sAsLEX]

Nup... all NZ based.

maybe telecon, but some companies are moving call centres offshore as its cheaper, not as its a better service

[far queue]

Obviously Mr Far Queue is a telecon employee and has been brainwashed like the rest of their employees.
Yes, I’m one of the minions that work for the company, I’ve been here since the post office days. But I certainly haven’t been brainwashed, and don’t think any that have been here for some time really believe the tripe that’s dished out by the PR people. If you re-read what I’ve written you’ll see that I don’t agree with how Telecom goes about things and that it’s not just Telecom I refer to with regard to what I believe are morally unsound practices.


My thoughts on the reasons why the government is stepping in is because their anti-competitive behaviour is screwing up the countries economy. Due to the fact that telecon has such exhorbitantly priced and low bandwidth "broadband" plans is crippling many businesses trying to keep up with overseas customers etc.
There are other options available for customers. Much higher speeds are available both from Telecom and TelstraClear via dedicated data circuits. Yes, this option is much more expensive from both companies, but the speed is available from both companies and the competition isn’t making it real cheap. It not in either companies interests to drop the price too low – they can, but they wont. Just like petrol companies. If TelstraClear or others get access to the local loop, yes prices will drop a bit, but not too much because TelstraClear want to screw you just as much as Telecom do. They didn’t come here because they felt sorry for you, they came here to make money.

Look at all the fuss Challenge made when they opened up shop to compete with Mobil, BP and so on. They said we were being ripped off and they were going to put that right. OK, they started with lower prices to build a client base, but how do they compare now? Just the same as all the rest. Pak N Save are now putting pumps in at their supermarkets – I’m sure the prices will start low, but they’ll be up with rest soon enough.


This is a very major issue for this country and the telecommunications infrastructure is one of those things that the government has to keep an eye on cause it is imperative to this countries wellbeing. Just the same as the power generation/transmission infrastructure. This is fairly heavily regulated which is just as important as the telecomms infrastructure and one of those essential services that needs government input. My 2c anyway.
Yep, fair enough. But the problem with the power co’s is that they fail to supply the power at times due to poor management/planning. Whereas it’s rare for telecommunications to fail to the extent that the whole country has reduced service for months at a time. And yes the govt is regulating power prices as it is with telecommunication prices via the kiwi share. And what about the effect the fuel increases are having on the country? Are the govt fixing that? No, they’re happy to keep quiet about that because of all the tax money they’re pulling in for their overseas junkets and salary increases.


I see your point........Govt is not consistent...they ploughed $800million of our money into AirNZ, but will not get involved in saving the engineer's jobs to avoid the work going off shore........this to me is a more important issue.
I agree, why aren’t they protecting kiwi’s jobs.


Yes we are behind but big deal.......as you say there are options for people to go elsewhere......we do have a small population for the size of the country....slightly larger than UK with 58 Million which makes a difference.
Yes. The UK has many more Telco’s than here, which means even more competition to bring the prices down lower, and the larger customer base means lower prices still bring in a tidy profit for them.

[Karma]

Yeh that's true... British Telecom for one... they outsourced a lot of jobs from my old workplace, and a lot of my friends got made redundant... sucks eh.

[far queue]

Could it be that the govt. could nationalise the phone lines themselves, and this could be run separately?
The govt would have to buy the lines/cables etc back, like they did with the rails from Toll. But Telecom would want top dollar for it of course. Not really practical. Easier for them to just fiddle with the rules/laws then force a private company to what they want. Isn't democracy great :rolleyes:

[scumdog]

Ah! So Telecom bashing is now the 'flavour-of-the-month'?
Excellent change!

[Karma]

The govt would have to buy the lines/cables etc back, like they did with the rails from Toll. But Telecom would want top dollar for it of course. Not really practical. Easier for them to just fiddle with the rules/laws then force a private company to what they want. Isn't democracy great :rolleyes:


And you'd trust the government to run the telecom network????

Have I missed something?

This way they can run it via legislation but take none of the blame for it.

[sAsLEX]

Yep, fair enough. But the problem with the power co’s is that they fail to supply the power at times due to poor management/planning. Whereas it’s rare for telecommunications to fail to the extent that the whole country has reduced service for months at a time



When was this?

winter 01 or something was close but we havent't really seen a nation wide black/brown out in a while. Auckland is just generally fucked from decades of people living with their heads in the sand rather than planning and building for the ever growing pop, now they are having to play catchup!

Greenies are to blame for power shortages.

[far queue]

And you'd trust the government to run the telecom network????
Hell no, don't trust them for a minute. Just saying that the govt would have to buy the network rather than just nationilise it. Even Telecom don't get all the maintainence done that should be, because they screw the contractors down to absolutly cut price rates. Therefore the contractors can only afford to spend minimal time on maintenance work. They get paid per job not for how well the job is done. It's all down to money again.

Telecom want to pay the minimum possible to their contractors to keep profits up. Because of this contractors can't afford to spend too much time on doing a really top job - they have to plough through the work to earn a decent living, and often work longer hours to do so.

It's not the contractors fault, they do a good job, but they've got families to feed too.

The govt would probably be worse.

[sAsLEX]

They get paid per job not for how well the job is done.

It's not the contractors fault, they do a good job, but they've got families to feed too.

The govt would probably be worse.


Most Govt kinda techies I know are on a salary.

[far queue]

Most Govt kinda techies I know are on a salary.

Lot's the contractors that do Telecom work are on piece rates. The ones that work for Downers, GDC, etc. Some also have to supply there own vehicals and so on, running themselves as a sub contractor to Downers, GDC etc. It's not good.

[far queue]

When was this?

winter 01 or something was close but we havent't really seen a nation wide black/brown out in a while. Auckland is just generally fucked from decades of people living with their heads in the sand rather than planning and building for the ever growing pop, now they are having to play catchup!

Greenies are to blame for power shortages.

Winter 01 sounds about right for the last major one, but there’s been other instances since then where we’ve been told to watch our power usage because they’re not making enough for us anymore. As you say, poor planning with regard to a growing population. It’s not like the writing wasn’t on the wall.

I wouldn’t blame the greenies for the shortages, but the power co’s poor planning. I like the fact that there are people prepared to get out there and save our green country from the corporations that just want to make money from it. I enjoy getting out there and playing in it, and would like to think that my kids will be able to continue to so, and their kids in time to come. But of course in any organisation/group there will be those that go a bit overboard with things. There does need to be a bit of common sense. Another group that can take some of the blame is the “Not In My Back Yard” crowd. They want the power, water, whatever, but they don’t want a Pylon, Wind Turbine, River Diversion and so on near them. They want to see all the bad buggers locked up, but when the prisons are full they don’t want a new one near them. They want to throw all their shit out instead of recycling, but when the dump’s full they don’t want a new one near them.

Sorry, got off track a bit there … but you get the idea

[far queue]

Ah! So Telecom bashing is now the 'flavour-of-the-month'?
Excellent change!
Yeah, tis a nice change isn't it, and the other thing I'm impressed with is it's stayed a debate rather than turning into an irrational name calling shit fight as usually happens. A pleasant change indeed. Well done guys :)

[Ixion]

Hell no, don't trust them for a minute. Just saying that the govt would have to buy the network rather than just nationilise it.


Why ?


..
Telecom want to pay the minimum possible to their contractors to keep profits up. Because of this contractors can't afford to spend too much time on doing a really top job - they have to plough through the work to earn a decent living, and often work longer hours to do so.

It's not the contractors fault, they do a good job, but they've got families to feed too.


So, what you're saying is that families , and society as a whole is suffering because the profits of a capitalist monopoly (most of which get sent offshore) are allowed to take priority of children being fed and other needs of society as a whole? And you agree with this?

Sounds like a PERFECT justification for nationalisation. The capitalists are saying, in effect "Stuff you, we don't give a damn what happens to society so long as we, the corporation, benefit". So why cannot we say in return "Stuff you , we don't give a damn what happens to your capitalist monopoly so long as we, society, benefit".

[sAsLEX]

I wouldn’t blame the greenies for the shortages, but the power co’s poor planning.

powerco: Hi I want to build a powerstation here

greenie: no you cant, fossil fuel

powerco: nuclear??

Greenie : nope

powerco : hydro

greenie: nope ruins habitats and ecosystems et al

powerco: wind

greenie: nope too noisey and look ugly

powerco: what do I build then??

greenie: nothing as we wont let you build the transmission lines anyways!!

[far queue]

Why ?
Because, as I’ve been saying I don’t believe the govt can sell something and then just take it back when they want to. They should have to buy it back. I know they’re the govt and can just make laws to do what they want, but it’s not really the right way.


So, what you're saying is that families , and society as a whole is suffering because the profits of a capitalist monopoly (most of which get sent offshore) are allowed to take priority of children being fed and other needs of society as a whole?
Basically, yes.


And you agree with this?
No not at all, just saying that this is what’s going on.


Sounds like a PERFECT justification for nationalisation. The capitalists are saying, in effect "Stuff you, we don't give a damn what happens to society so long as we, the corporation, benefit". So why cannot we say in return "Stuff you , we don't give a damn what happens to your capitalist monopoly so long as we, society, benefit".
Yes, the large companies are doing this sort of thing, but they are just making the most of the rules that the government created in the late ‘80’s with the introduction of the employment contracts act. So, the govt created the problem, and the companies are making the most of it. I agree with your views of doing things for the good of society as a whole rather than the profits of a few, but don’t see that it’s that simple to fix.



powerco: Hi I want to build a powerstation here
greenie: no you cant, fossil fuel
powerco: nuclear??
Greenie : nope
powerco : hydro
greenie: nope ruins habitats and ecosystems et al
powerco: wind
greenie: nope too noisey and look ugly
powerco: what do I build then??

This is what I meant when I said there are those that go a bit far. The powerco’s could’ve started the planning process a bit sooner though, rather than waiting until we’re running out, and then saying gosh, we’d better do something about that.

[sAsLEX]

This is what I meant when I said there are those that go a bit far. The powerco’s could’ve started the planning process a bit sooner though, rather than waiting until we’re running out, and then saying gosh, we’d better do something about that.

we have had extra generating ability for a while, sure at reduced effieciencies compared to the neweer stations, but New Plymouth which was one of the largest in the country is having to mothball its Units for the greenies, where they could be kept in reserve for WHEN the lakes run dry again but........greenies

They are moving NP to the ability to OIL fire for when Maui runs out and gas prices go up, so they are future thinking, but with the amount of time and money required to pay off all the local tribes and stuff during resource consent applications building new stations etc cant be done early as it costs too much when you can just charge more due to lack of supply!

[Ixion]

..
Yes, the large companies are doing this sort of thing, but they are just making the most of the rules that the government created in the late ‘80’s with the introduction of the employment contracts act. So, the govt created the problem, and the companies are making the most of it. I agree with your views of doing things for the good of society as a whole rather than the profits of a few, but don’t see that it’s that simple to fix.
.....


A few Khalashnikovs simplify such problems enormously. Very easy to fix. Trucks arrive (a few tanks help to reinforce the arguement). Capitalists go away in trucks. Capitalists not seen again. Telecom now belongs to the people. Is run for the benefit of society. Bricklayers repair wall . Sorted.

[Lou Girardin]

A few Khalashnikovs simplify such problems enormously. Very easy to fix. Trucks arrive (a few tanks help to reinforce the arguement). Capitalists go away in trucks. Capitalists not seen again. Telecom now belongs to the people. Is run for the benefit of society. Bricklayers repair wall . Sorted.

And they're even trying to rehabilitate Stalins memory in Russia. He is now neither hero or monster, but a heroic monster.
Telecom wouldn't be threatening him with litigation. They'd find themselves in an Auckland Island gulag.

[Finn]

A few Khalashnikovs simplify such problems enormously. Very easy to fix. Trucks arrive (a few tanks help to reinforce the arguement). Capitalists go away in trucks. Capitalists not seen again. Telecom now belongs to the people. Is run for the benefit of society. Bricklayers repair wall . Sorted.

We don't have Khalashnikovs let alone tanks. Socialism took care of that for us. It's next target is Healthcare, Education and Security and nothing can match the destructive power of Socialism. It's a nasty slow eating desease like cancer.

[MisterD]

destructive power of Socialism. It's a nasty slow eating desease like cancer.

More like Ebola....

[oldrider]

Hey Ive been away for a few days and this is the first thread Ive looked at.
There are some good interesting comments on here by some real free thinkers. :banana:
Unfortunately there are a few very misguided people who must be too young to have experienced the "Cuban" Telecom service we had here before it was sold off.
Do you know how long you had to wait to get a phone installed? :mobile: Let alone mobiles or internet etc.
Believe me, this less than satisfactory so called "competitive" situation we have now is streets ahead.
That is no reason to persist with the current monopoly that Telecom has now! We got to move forward.
We need more real competition! :yes:
Check governments record of just being a government! (Shit a brick!)
Surely you don't want them ever involved in anything else! They shouldn't be involved in business, full stop!
Government are too involved in our lives now. :moon:
What this country needs is "Less Government not more". :oi-grr: Cheers John.

[SPman]

. Bricklayers repair wall .
Revolution,assets to the people (well, some of the people, anyway) and, job creation!
What more could we want?
apart from Roger Douglas up against the wall.....!

[oldrider]

Revolution,assets to the people (well, some of the people, anyway) and, job creation!
What more could we want?
apart from Roger Douglas up against the wall.....!
SPman, lovely bike in your profile pic, mint condition, is it still like that?
To business, how do you reconcile your comment above with your signature? :eyepoke:
They are polls apart. (poor old Roger, which way is he going to be facing?) :buggerd: Curious John.

[oldrider]

Because, as I’ve been saying I don’t believe the govt can sell something and then just take it back when they want to. They should have to buy it back. I know they’re the govt and can just make laws to do what they want, but it’s not really the right way.


Basically, yes.


No not at all, just saying that this is what’s going on.


Yes, the large companies are doing this sort of thing, but they are just making the most of the rules that the government created in the late ‘80’s with the introduction of the employment contracts act. So, the govt created the problem, and the companies are making the most of it. I agree with your views of doing things for the good of society as a whole rather than the profits of a few, but don’t see that it’s that simple to fix.


This is what I meant when I said there are those that go a bit far. The powerco’s could’ve started the planning process a bit sooner though, rather than waiting until we’re running out, and then saying gosh, we’d better do something about that.
I find it amusing hearing people say that they want to return to the good old days when the government controlled the power system. Why?
Because since deregulation (never was privatised) in the late eighties the Government now control and "own" more of the electricity supply and distribution system (including retail) than they ever did prior to that time.
The general public of this country have been duped.
Electricity in this country is one great big "cash cow" for the government of the day that is why they talk a lot but never do anything about it.

The government own and operate.
1) "TransPower". The national grid. (Since deregulation, have swallowed up power board distribution systems, everywhere)
2) "Genesis". Thermal, hydro and since deregulation, retail.
3) "Mighty River Power".Northern Hydro and since deregulation, retail.
4) "Meridian Energy".Southern Hydro, wind and since deregulation, retail.
All of the above are owned and operated by "The Government" and people of this country think it is "privatised". :no: (suckers)

5) "Contact Energy". Sold off to create the illusion of "privatisation". :laugh: (Suckers)
There are other smaller Generation, distribution and retail companies that make up the private sector with Contact as well but the Government is by far the main player in the electricity generation, supply, distribution and retail in NZ.

When our Hydro lakes are low there was a large store (lake) of coal held for reserves so that thermal stations could then generate until the lakes recovered in "dry" years. Power shipped South via Cook strait cables over night for Southern dry years.
The "Greenies" refused to allow them to use it so Geneses sold it to overseas interests. That's why you have power shortages, they are man made. (Woman made in this case)
You have all been conned by these Socialist governments that you love so much.:eek:
There is a lot more to it of course but that's it in a nutshell. :hitcher: Cheers John.

[SPman]

(poor old Roger, which way is he going to be facing?) :buggerd: Curious John.

Both ways, I think - after one way he'd be glad of the other - dont say communists have no compassion......:whistle:

Yes, bikes still tidy.....