Cheaters in motor racing in NZ

[Wellyman]

Well I have just been reading the NZ V8's site (www.nzv8s.co.nz) and Toyota Pitlane on the telly and am intrested about what is happening with Ford motors.



MotorSport New Zealand Inquiry
6:04:2006

Following inspection of some Ford engines used by NZV8 competitors the Technical Department of MotorSport New Zealand have sent a report to the Event Director advising that the engine heads inspected do not comply with the class articles. An inquiry/hearing will be held. We will notify you of the details of the decision of the Event Director and the competitors involved as soon as available.

I don't think any of the teams are meaing to cheat but this was all started off by Kayne Scotts little pissy fit in his interview after the racing at Taupo. I think there is a problem with the motors being give to the drivers and it isn't the team drivers or engineers fault. Angus Fogg is in the clear but plenty of people no just at the front of the feild have been deemed to have illegal heads on their cars, I think this is a Ford fuck up, as it is happened to more then one driver but is an intresting development with one round of the series to go at the V8 Supercar meeting at pukekohe being their last round. Why didn't somebody do something earlier if they were concerened? I think the Holdens have finally figured out there cars are for slow grandma drivers and are throwing shit in a way, just my opinion though. Whats your thoughts?, would love to have a few peoples comments on this.
WM

[madboy]

From my experience of motorsport, the more serious you are about it the more likely you are to work those rules to your advantage. It's only cheating if you get caught. Toyota did it in rallying several years ago, no doubt many other manufacturers have been doing it too. If I recall correctly Ferrari were also pretty selective with their interpretation of the rules in Formula One too, or was it another team? Or is it all of them?? I don't follow V8s close enough to know the full saga on this one, but the issue of parity will always be a heated debate. With two different cars from different manufacturers with different components it will always be a seesaw thing. This week it's Ford on top. Holden will jump up and down until they're on top. And then guess who'll be whinging then?

[James Deuce]

What now? They race these "car" things?

How, errr, interesting.

[mangell6]

GM are just annoyed that they have not got enough horse power on the straights. As with ALL this sort of thing it is interpretation and if it has beened deemed OK in Oz then MANZ won't have a leg.

"Lawyers to the Pitland please, cheque books at the ready."

[Timber020]

Q) How can you tell when a fords cheating

A) When its not coming last!

Oh no, cheating in the great family sedan 2 horse series? werent they limiting one make for a while so the other stood a chance?

[Motu]

It's hard to think of a more contrived racing class....it's good racing,but hardly ''fair''.Kinda like the Ducati domination in WSB....it only happened because of a printing mistake.

[scumdog]

Blue ovel man from waaay back - but how often do you hear the Ford team having a whinge? and they are normally in 2nd place so you'ld think they would have more reason to whinge.

[The Stranger]

I think the Holdens have finally figured out there cars are for slow grandma drivers and are throwing shit in a way, just my opinion though. Whats your thoughts?, would love to have a few peoples comments on this.
WM

You think do you?

The only reason the Fords even got a look in to the winners circle is because they changed the rules to hobble the Holdens for fear of Holden ruining the class (by winning about 20yrs in a row). Basically as they did with the F1 to hobble Ferrari.


You would think that Ford would be grateful and not then resort to bending the rules. They should have just let natural selection run it's course.
Still at least we can be thankful we have Fords. Need something to keep the dickheads out of Holdens.

[TONO]

Of course we all know what happens to both Fraud & Hogdahms when you introduce Japanese manufactured 2 ltr cars to car racing!!! OH my god how can those little biddy motors go so fast and last so long.
My opinion...noisy fuckers going nowhere....
Will admit good to watch though :-)

[Lou Girardin]

Will admit good to watch though :-)

Yeah, but they had to allow biff and bash to keep an audience.

[stify]

Still at least we can be thankful we have Fords.

i'm thankful, keeps me employed....full time:wacko:

[stify]

it's not the only issue with the ford's at the moment, we sent a page of the manual relating to the rear suspension mounting points to manz cause the holdon drivers are complaining that the fords are gettin too much drive outa the corners.....oh well at least the crashin is fun to watch

[Lou Girardin]

It's an old story. The Aussies wrote Sierras, M3's, Skylines out of the rules because they made Aussie iron look like the slow pieces of shit that they are. M3's in particular made them look stupid, half the engine size and seconds quicker around any track.
Pushrod engines and live axles in this day and age - ridiculous.

[Buster]

I thought motorsport was about development as much as it was racing. A little rule bending is part of finding the limit. It would be cool if they let more types of car in, like the early 90s. I would actually watch it. The aussie V8s do nothing for me except for give me a laugh at all the wannabie race drivers on the road. How much did that new V8 cost ya? Well it just got smoked by my 10k nissan. :rofl:

[The Stranger]

Of course we all know what happens to both Fraud & Hogdahms when you introduce Japanese manufactured 2 ltr cars to car racing!!! OH my god how can those little biddy motors go so fast

Because they turbo them. Like turbo charging in any class of racing (including F1) there are restriction placed on them.


and last so long.
My opinion...noisy fuckers going nowhere....
Will admit good to watch though :-)

Hmm the V8's don't seem to have too mauch problem lasting the race. Turbo's on the other hand don't last so well.

[The Stranger]

It's an old story. The Aussies wrote Sierras, M3's, Skylines out of the rules because they made Aussie iron look like the slow pieces of shit that they are. M3's in particular made them look stupid, half the engine size and seconds quicker around any track.
Pushrod engines and live axles in this day and age - ridiculous.

The skylines and sierras at least were turbo charged and as pointed out above all classes of racing have restrictions on the usage of turbos.
Are they still using live axles in the race cars? They don't in the Holden street cars anyway, haven't for some time now.

As to push rods, the problem with this approach is?
Now let me see.
Sprint cars could use a japa engine sans push rods, but no they use old fashion pusrod engines hmm surely this must be holding them back.

Top fuel dragsters pulling 300 mph down the quarter mile.
Those bloody push rods holding them back yet again. Bet they long for a 2 litre japa there too.

[The Stranger]

I thought motorsport was about development as much as it was racing. A little rule bending is part of finding the limit. It would be cool if they let more types of car in, like the early 90s. I would actually watch it. The aussie V8s do nothing for me except for give me a laugh at all the wannabie race drivers on the road. How much did that new V8 cost ya? Well it just got smoked by my 10k nissan. :rofl:

Damn, if you got a Nissan for 10k that will smoke my SS I must say that was quite the bargain and you did well.

What was/is it as a matter of interest?

[speedpro]

Top fuel dragsters pulling 300 mph down the quarter mile.
Those bloody push rods holding them back yet again. Bet they long for a 2 litre japa there too.
About those dragsters and their pushrod engines, it's because that's the rules. Go here http://www.mcgeecams.com/history.html and read the paragraph about 2/3 down just below the bike picture. Pushrods are a pain in the arse on serious V8s. They get in the way of the ports, or vice versa, and even with Jessal (spelling?) rocker systems you still end up with some really ugly angles between lifter bores, pushrods, and rockers. The lifter bores are a weak point in the block and the valve train inertia with all the rocky bits and the up/down bits is way more than it would be with a good OHC design. Even with titanium valves, and sometimes springs, with the cams that are run and the revs, a pushrod will still be kicked out sometimes. The good point is that you can use rockers with say a 1.7:1 ratio allowing big lift without toooooo big a cam lobe. The car I crewed on had 2.4" inlet valves, about .8-9" lift and the shift light was set for 9,200rpm. Still though, even if there is pushrods inside, those engines are waaaaaaaaaaay trick.

[Buster]

Damn, if you got a Nissan for 10k that will smoke my SS I must say that was quite the bargain and you did well.

What was/is it as a matter of interest?

It was quite the bargain 5 years ago... 300z with small mods.
And no I wasnt talking about your SS.

[The Stranger]

It was quite the bargain 5 years ago... 300z with small mods.
And no I wasnt talking about your SS.

There are many reasons a person would own a vehicle such as say a Holden V8.
My son's GTI-R or my brother's STI may beat the SS, but hook my boat on and tow it to the Bay of Islands and the bloody things will be twice as long when (if) they get back.
My 3 boys and myself are over 6' tall, try stuffing that lot in your japa for a couple of hours.

[Buster]

There are many reasons a person would own a vehicle such as say a Holden V8.
My son's GTI-R or my brother's STI may beat the SS, but hook my boat on and tow it to the Bay of Islands and the bloody things will be twice as long when (if) they get back.
My 3 boys and myself are over 6' tall, try stuffing that lot in your japa for a couple of hours.
Its a shame they dont race them with trailers.....

[scumdog]

Its a shame they dont race them with trailers.....

It's a shame they don't tow large boats with GTI-Rs........

Different strokes for different folks.


I wonder why NZ Police don't use Jappas for front line work very often??

[The Stranger]

Its a shame they dont race them with trailers.....

When you started talking about "wannabie race drivers on the road" and smoking them with your 10k nissan you took the thread off of the race track and onto the road.

Make your bloody mind up.

[DEATH_INC.]

Driving a ford IS like cheating :Pokey:
those poor holden folk :no:

[FROSTY]

yea death you gotta feel sorry for those poor people stuck with holdens--I mean how can they possibly know if its their driving thats good or Hoden is so much better a car :Oops:

[The Stranger]

Driving a ford IS like cheating :Pokey:
those poor holden folk :no:

A couple of other little tidbits for you Japa jerks out there.

Nurberg ring times

8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

I tried to include a Ford too for comparison but none were in the top 100 or so entries.

Now if the Holden is a bad performer, BMW, Mercedes, Adui, Aston Martin and Porsche all have a lot to answer for because there bad performers all cost a LOT more.

Why do the motoring press compare the Holden's to M5's and E55's (cars at least 3 times the price)when reviewing them?

[The Stranger]

Pushrod engines ... in this day and age - ridiculous.

That's it folks, the official word from the Harley Davidson retailer.

[Buster]

Why do the motoring press compare the Holden's to M5's and E55's (cars at least 3 times the price)when reviewing them?
For a laugh. :wait:

They should let bmw and merc into the race series then eh?

[Hitcher]

V8 touring cars... What a crock. Built on "Ford vs Holden" nonsense. You can't buy one from a dealer, so why bother with the charade? (Without wanting to denigrate Charades)

Might as well just have a homologated model, and let driver skill be the point of difference.

[Lou Girardin]

The skylines and sierras at least were turbo charged and as pointed out above all classes of racing have restrictions on the usage of turbos.
Are they still using live axles in the race cars? They don't in the Holden street cars anyway, haven't for some time now.

As to push rods, the problem with this approach is?
Now let me see.
Sprint cars could use a japa engine sans push rods, but no they use old fashion pusrod engines hmm surely this must be holding them back.

Top fuel dragsters pulling 300 mph down the quarter mile.
Those bloody push rods holding them back yet again. Bet they long for a 2 litre japa there too.

You left out aero engines.
Can we get back to sedan racing or do I have to mention F1 engines? 300 hp per litre. Or even F1 turbos 1000hp per litre and they didn't need pushrods. They lasted longer than 5 seconds too.

[Smorg]

It's a shame they don't tow large boats with GTI-Rs........

Different strokes for different folks.


I wonder why NZ Police don't use Jappas for front line work very often??

I know the Australian Police use the occasional WRX for frontline work although they mostly have Holdens, Fords or Land Crusiers

[Lou Girardin]

That's it folks, the official word from the Harley Davidson retailer.

But what do I RIDE?

[The Stranger]

What's that got to do with ripping off poor bikers with old technology crap?

[Buster]

I wonder why NZ Police don't use Jappas for front line work very often??Because larger capicity engines get more out of LPG.

[cowpoos]

push rod engines are more of a bad habbit by a few car manifactures than an effcient use of air and petrol....

the high horsepower drag engines used in the states based on production pushrod motors is because the rules dictate it...no other reason...other wise they would all be running high horse power euro 6's 8's and 12's [and jap 4's and 6's with huge turbo's make massive HP]..with over head cam shafts...

pushrod engines have more moving parts to lift and return a valve than OHC engines...there are tolerences from the cam...bottom of the push rod...top of the push rod btween the rocker and the rod...and the rocker and the valve...they may only be a few thou's of a inch but add them all together and you have alot of inaccuracy in your timing yer?
the very direct articulation of valve control in a ohc engine gives alot more accuracy in the valve timing...being very precise means the can run them open and closed alot closer to ideal...also the effect of this presicion in ohc engines means they can run far higher RPM with control of the valves and timing...enabling the engine to move more air in a givin time frame...there fore producing higher power...

this restriction in high rpm reliability and function serverly limits pushrod engines producing efficient horse power...that is why they make them big...the larger capacities enable more air to flow...but with less rpm able to be used they can not ever compete with a higher reving ohc engine on equal footing.... in real world terms....
also the smaller displacment higher reving engines hadv less moving interia...there fore require less HP to increase engine RPM at any givin point in the rev range...

really.....people like them still....so they are made....not because they are good....not at all....the future is going to be interesting with more stringent emission laws....its gunna be hard for these pushrod engines to be efficient enough to meet up and coming emission laws....and I notice ford hav already produced a OHC v8 for production...

[Quasievil]

FORDS SUCK!!!!!!

HOLDENS RULE!!!!!

Thats all I got to say................. can I have a drive now CAN ???

[Motu]

It's not about rpm,that's just a by product...there are plenty of high revving pushrod motors.In any modern engine (from the late 70s on) it's about emissions,an ohc set up is needed to give fast valve opening and closing speeds,they need to slam that valve wide open and then shut it as fast as possible,that sort of stuff stresses a pushrod motor a fair bit.

[cowpoos]

set up is needed to give fast valve opening and closing speeds,they need to slam that valve wide open and then shut it as fast as possible,that sort of stuff stresses a pushrod motor a fair bit.

plenty is not a word I would use for the amount of high reving pushrod engines out there...buggar all is a better discription...

how do you mean RPM is a by product? where are you coming from with that?

[Motu]

Well let's just say that there are a lot of ohc motors that rev lower than many pushrod motors as another way to look at it.OHC does not automaticly mean high revs....nor does desmo,the desmo Dukes didn't rev much higher than the non desmo - but they had better valve control.Higher revs come from better valve control....a well designed pushrod engine (Mercedes Indy V8) can have better valve control than a poorly designed ohc engine.

[scumdog]

....and I notice ford hav already produced a OHC v8 for production...


Yep, the 427 (7 litres) SOHC Ford V8 came out about 1965 I believe, was not that readily available though.

Biggest problem was its 10 mile long timing chain set-up, I wonder how it would go with belts instead of chains?

[Ixion]

Pushrod valve gear is easy good to 8000 rpm+. OHC doesn't really have much advantage in revs over a high cam pushrod. Especially with large valves, where OHC loses the multiplier effect of the rockers .And OHV with a simple gear cam drive avoids the timing variability inevitable with a long cam chain (or belt)

But sidevalves are better.

And best of all is NO valves. Real engines don't need all these valves and camshafts and whatnot. Just complicate things.

(By the way, have I mentioned gaiters lately ?)

[cowpoos]

Pushrod valve gear is easy good to 8000 rpm+. OHC doesn't really have much advantage in revs over a high cam pushrod. Especially with large valves

oh gwad....... go hug a pushrod....go on....sheeessssh!

[limbimtimwim]

I tried to include a Ford too for comparison but none were in the top 100 or so entries.It's an old list. And Aston Martin are owned by Ford. I think an old Cosworth Escort or a new Hi Po Focus would do quite well.

Not that I am a Ford fan really.

Anyway, I am OT.

[The Stranger]

It's an old list. And Aston Martin are owned by Ford. I think an old Cosworth Escort or a new Hi Po Focus would do quite well.

Not that I am a Ford fan really.

Anyway, I am OT.

Well depends on your definition of old really.
Some here cling to what happened when the Ausie cars got dorked by the turbos, probably 15yrs ago (I am sure someone will correct me), by contrast some of the entries in the full list are from 2004.

[stify]

FORDS SUCK!!!!!!

HOLDENS RULE!!!!!




worked on both brands, an they are as bad as each other.....no winners here

[The Stranger]

Owned both brands.

The Falcon nearly sent me broke.

Drive along and thud, what was that, oh just the rear view mirror falling off.

Close the door and off comes the door handle.

And that exhaust smell in the cabin, despite what Ford say, it is not normal (well perhaps it is in their context).

We all know that Ford owners enjoy cleaning up oil, but hey, from engine, gearbox and the diff.

Mind you, all credit. Not much went wrong until the 1yr warranty expired.

[Lou Girardin]

What's that got to do with ripping off poor bikers with old technology crap?

They don't seem to mind. In fact, they queue up to buy them. Even at 2 or 3 times the price of pseudo-cruisers.
Plus, the chickies don't care that you've got double overhead widgets and super flatulent ram-air. They just think Harleys are sex on wheels.

Another factor with pushrods v OHC is valve train stress. You may be able to spin a pushrod engine to 8 or 9 thou, but with the heavy springs required to control valve float it will not be as reliable as, say, an S2000 Honda that'll spin to 9000 and has a 3 year warranty.

[Motu]

In this day and age it must be cheaper to make OHC than OHV too,production plants are set up for it.Does my OHC 4D56 Mitsi motor rev any higher than the OHV Nissan TD27? No,both are diesels and can't go over 4700rpm because the fuel can't burn fast enough - there is absolutly no reason to make an OHC diesel other than production costs.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

FORDS SUCK!!!!!!

HOLDENS RULE!!!!!

Thats all I got to say................. can I have a drive now CAN ???


GOD CREATED FORDS TO KEEP DICKHEADS OUT OF HOLDENS

[750Y]

there's been plenty of accusations of cheating on 2 wheels also.
A couple years back, a certain top nz racer was accused of it.
apparently their 600 was 10 kmh faster through some speed trap at the IOMTT than any other. the rider won that race & all us kiwis were really proud of that acheivement, but it didn't stop the yanks.
from what i can gather some sore loser cried cheat & was told to "put up, or shut up" by said kiwi. due to the rules i think any bike can be torn down for inspection but the accuser must pay for it if it's found to be legit. funny with their big $$ budget they never coughed up the measly $500.

[SPman]

there's been plenty of accusations of cheating on 2 wheels also.
A couple years back, a certain top nz racer was accused of it.
apparently their 600 was 10 kmh faster through some speed trap at the IOMTT than any other. the rider won that race & all us kiwis were really proud of that acheivement, but it didn't stop the yanks.
from what i can gather some sore loser cried cheat & was told to "put up, or shut up" by said kiwi. due to the rules i think any bike can be torn down for inspection but the accuser must pay for it if it's found to be legit. funny with their big $$ budget they never coughed up the measly $500.
Then there was the winner of the 400TT in '98..'99?, who, under protest was found to have a 600 motor in his FZR 400! An Irish team, as it happened....they claimed complete innocence............:whistle:

[Motu]

The best anti cheating rule was used by the Yanks on their National Circuit (basicly flattrack).If you suspected a competitors bike,you could claim it for a nominal fee...like,buy their bike.So if you had any radical improvments or cheating,your opposition could claim the bike and use your secrets.Of course cheating was rife and the rule seldom invoked,but the threat was always there.I like it.

Someone mentioned Smokey Yunick in another thread - he was the ultimate cheater,responsable for the 7/8 car...he made a car just slightly smaller than the original.He also had hidden fuel tanks,all sorts of shit to cheat the rules,an amaising guy.

[cowpoos]

OHC 4D56 Mitsi motor rev any higher than the OHV Nissan TD27? No,both are diesels and can't go over 4700rpm because the fuel can't burn fast enough - there is absolutly no reason to make an OHC diesel other than production costs.

fuel efficency....cleaner burning [emissions]....more precise timing makes developing a long flat tourqe curve alot easiyer

and there are diesel engines running alot higher rpm than 4700rpm...using higher compression ratio's and direct cylinder injection....and one that uses variable valve timing... [audi I fink?]

but I would imagine production costs would be a reason not to resort to defunked techonology....but why would you wanna pack pedel??

I would acctually like to see a wankel diesel.....is there a reason why it deffinatly wouldn't work motu?

[Motu]

Yes,as I've been saying,ohc gives better control over the valves.The wankle won't make a good diesel for the same reason it doesn't make a good petrol engine - the combustion chamber is too long with too much heat loss,rather a design flaw in a diesel.

[aerobubb1]

Well you know what they say big block small .....?
You don't see turbos on v8s because they don't last turbo charged, on the other hand the japanese can build tiny turbo engines that put out massive hp and go and go and go, they should let them back in and settle the argument again, like in the early 90s

[James Deuce]

STOP Dredging threads AND GO FOR A RIDE!

[geoffm]

A couple of other little tidbits for you Japa jerks out there.

Nurberg ring times

8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion

I tried to include a Ford too for comparison but none were in the top 100 or so entries.

Now if the Holden is a bad performer, BMW, Mercedes, Adui, Aston Martin and Porsche all have a lot to answer for because there bad performers all cost a LOT more.

Why do the motoring press compare the Holden's to M5's and E55's (cars at least 3 times the price)when reviewing them?


Well there is always teh Transit van that Top Gear punted around the 'Ring a few years back - actually it was a German hottie named Sabine Shmitt. Did 10:08 in a diesel Transit van - trying beating Clarkson in a Jag :-)
http://www.polcar.com.au/catalog/ford-transit-van-media-page-12.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_0-MiaDlpE
Bloody good. She passed a couple of bikes and Porches in it.


http://astrochimp.com/2006/10/03/top-gear-ford-transit-a

[aerobubb1]

Looks like the standard normally asperated 2litre honda beat the holden?? its engine is nearly 1/3 the size! goes to show I guess