Target Fixation

[Scorpygirl]

This is a very interesting report from the Herald today.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10383926


RIP to those involved and condolences to family and friends, first and foremost.

What we are told on a bike as a first rule but you never hear about when you are learning to drive a car.

Thank you to the coroner!! Thoughts are welcome.

[crashe]

Scorpygirl - Yep I read that article today.

[John Banks]

On a bike, target fixation is a fact that comes into play from the moment we start riding, and something we do on nearly every corner. From when I sat my basic handling test, I was told to try and do a wide figure of eight, but was unable to because I wasn't turning tight enough. Then the instructor told me to turn my head towards the exit... bam, I made it.
In all the time I drove a car, I had never heard of target fixation because it wasn't something that came into everyday driving. (The fact that we are not taught what to do when the shit hits the fan is a big oversight in driver training, in my opinion)

[Morepower]

This is a very interesting report from the Herald today.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10383926


RIP to those involved and condolences to family and friends, first and foremost.

What we are told on a bike as a first rule but you never hear about when you are learning to drive a car.

Thank you to the coroner!! Thoughts are welcome.

Sad story , they get taught to steer cars , not drive them .

[Scorpygirl]

Yes, Morepower. Yes, learnt to steer (drive) a car but I never heard of target fixation til I started getting involved with bikes.

Please this thread is about target fixation. I know the young man was on a restricted licence and was overtaking without the required 100m clearance. His bad but maybe there is other things to be learnt.

I want to focus on target fixation in this thread, please!!!

[pritch]

I want to focus on target fixation in this thread, please!!!

OK there are two obvious ways this can effect us. First, when we stare at the perceived threat and centre punch it. Been there and done that, but have hopefully learned the error of my ways...

Second, when Dick Cranium in the SUV suddenly spots you coming toward him and "locks on" to you.

We need to be aware of and to occasionally think about both.

If all of the above fails try to remember to stand on the pegs just before impact. Better to fly over the "target" than try to punch right through it.

Ride safe

[Motu]

I rode bikes for years without knowing about target fixation - like countersteering it's something you pick up as you go along and do without fully realising (NOT target fixating I am refering to) But when I started trials riding you have to actively target fixate - look where you want to ago,and the bike goes there.It was the next step up,and doing it consiously made me realise I had been doing it subconsiously for years....but not very well.

[Finn]

Bullshit. He overtook and crashed. Yip, I should have been a coroner.

How about looking at more overtaking lanes and teaching stupid kiwi's doing 76kph not to speed up to 118kph just as they enter an overtaking lane.

Target fixation my arse. I suppose his eyes where wide open on the slab so the graduate coroner guessed he must have been looking at something when he died.

[Scorpygirl]

Target fixation my arse. I suppose his eyes where wide open on the slab so the graduate coroner guessed he must have been looking at something when he died.

Oh Bugger My Dad died with his eyes wide open too!!!! Shit he died of cancer!!!!!!!!! FFS!!!! :shutup:

[Finn]

Oh Bugger My Dad died with his eyes wide open too!!!! Shit he died of cancer!!!!!!!!! FFS!!!! :shutup:

He obviously didn't see the car coming. When my dad was on his way out, they called me to say he wouldn't make it till breakfast. This was at 6am and he was in Tauranga. This was the same week those druggies got murdered in Tauranga after driving from Auck in 1:45. I made it in 1:37 in the car. Ran into his room and he looked like something from Scary Movie.

[Ixion]

Mr Motu makes a valuable statement. We can use target fixation to our benefit, and not just in trials riding.

When the situation looks horribly nasty , and it's all turning to shit, pick a target - a gap, the corner exit, a soft bit to land on, whatever is where the shit is not- and fix on it. It is quite amazing how often somehow you end up going there and getting out of trouble. Even if , had you been asked, you'd have sworn you could not possibly do it.

In the newspaper case, it comments that the horsefloat being overtaken by the unfortunate lad had squeezed to the left to , perhaps, give him room to run between the float and the bus. Had the lad looked for and seen that , and fixated on the gap instead of the bus, he might have survived.

When in danger, tear your eyes away from the danger, and look for safety. Then fixate on the safe place rather than the danger. Don't worry thinking about HOW you are to get there, instinct will sort that out.

Easier said than done, of course.

It is a good exercise, when riding to constantly train oneself to "look for the gaps"- to cast imaginary scenarios in one's mind - "if that car were to pull out in front of me to overtake that truck - NOW! where could I go." "If a car were to come round this corner on the wrong side of the road NOW, where could I go". The mind, trained over time thus, will react instinctively when genuine danger presents. I hope. Worked so far, any way.

[Rhino]

Bullshit. He overtook and crashed. Yip, I should have been a coroner.

Target fixation my arse. I suppose his eyes where wide open on the slab so the graduate coroner guessed he must have been looking at something when he died.
Holy Shit Batman.:shutup: If coroners ever sink to your level, we have a problem.

Target fixation is a very well known fact. Talk to any pilot or Flying Instructor and they will confirm that "the aircraft goes where you are looking." That was one of the first things I was taught when doing my PPL. The same applies to both bike riding and cage driving.:yes:

Imagine yourself as a new, inexperienced road user. You start to overtake and realise that a LARGE vehicle is a lot closer than you first thought. :(

probably 90% of newbies will stare at the approaching radiator grille until too late.

Even experienced bikers have been known to have lapses and temporarily focus on that gravel/piece of debris in the road, although most of us manage to recover without having a bin.

[Scorpygirl]

He obviously didn't see the car coming. When my dad was on his way out, they called me to say he wouldn't make it till breakfast. This was at 6am and he was in Tauranga. This was the same week those druggies got murdered in Tauranga after driving from Auck in 1:45. I made it in 1:37 in the car. Ran into his room and he looked like something in Scary Movie.

Sorry Finn, I don't want to start a war. I was just trying to get some opinion on target fixation, the coroners findings and what people think. Yup he didn't see the bus but he did have an escape route that was given him.

[Finn]

Holy Shit Batman.:shutup: If coroners ever sink to your level, we have a problem.


I would make an excellent coroner. "He's dead and he's starting to smell funny. I think we should bury him." Also I might add, "Just a hunch, but I think it could have been something to do with a bus."

Target fixation is real. Look to where you want to ride, bla, bla, bla but given kiwi's have trouble changing gears, how are you ever going to teach them anything about target fixation I ask you???

[Motu]

how are you ever going to teach them anything about target fixation I ask you???

By starting with the very next training group - over time old farts like yourself who know nothing about the subject will have passed out of the active system into greener pastures....but you will be remembered by a white cross on your favorite piece of road....and the grill of the car you hit.

[oldrider]

Target fixation is real. Look to where you want to ride, bla, bla, bla but given kiwi's have trouble changing gears, how are you ever going to teach them anything about target fixation I ask you???
Just show them a bus! Seemed to work for that one. :bye:

[Finn]

By starting with the very next training group - over time old farts like yourself who know nothing about the subject will have passed out of the active system into greener pastures....but you will be remembered by a white cross on your favorite piece of road....and the grill of the car you hit.

The only time I use target fixation is when I'm in boobie bars. I'm not old, I just smell a bit funny.

[Quasievil]

I made it in 1:37 in the car.


Arh yeah in a Porsche:blip:

[Edbear]

how are you ever going to teach them anything about target fixation I ask you???




MAny people will believe anything they see on TV...:yes: Maybe the highly respected LTSA could do a few ads...?:gob:

[Lou Girardin]

Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy. No condolences either, it could have been someone I cared about that he took out. Stuff him.
He had a way out and didn't take it. Not to mention overtaking like Allah was going to protect him.
The best bit was that he hit something big and didn't take anyone other than his passengers with him.

[jonbuoy]

I think you tend to have more moments of "flight or fight" going on in your head on a bike than driving a car. I think this is why motorcyclist are more aware of this than car drivers, and should be more aware and able to snap out of it and start thinking again, instead of turning into a passenger for those last vital few seconds.

[Edbear]

Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy. No condolences either, it could have been someone I cared about that he took out. Stuff him.
He had a way out and didn't take it. Not to mention overtaking like Allah was going to protect him.
The best bit was that he hit something big and didn't take anyone other than his passengers with him.




Ouch, Lou! Bit harsh, mate. The kid was only 16, lacked judgement and froze in an emergency. Glad I wasn't one of the passengers! This sort of scenario goes through your mind when teaching your kids to drive and you still find yourself worrying about them even after they've been driving for a few years - have they developed the necessary skills to take evasive action? I can remember having quick reflexes enabling me to avoid a few nasty situations when I was a youngun, but many people are not "natural drivers" and need time to develop the necessary skills. This sounds like a very sad situation and one wonders what the fully licenced front passenger was saying or doing to try to save themselves.

[ManDownUnder]

Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy. No condolences either, it could have been someone I cared about that he took out. Stuff him.
He had a way out and didn't take it. Not to mention overtaking like Allah was going to protect him.
The best bit was that he hit something big and didn't take anyone other than his passengers with him.

Yeah - I'll bite...

1) The kid made a mistake. I've done it too - so who am I to criticise him?
2) Target fixation isn't a choice - it's a very common phenominon overcome with a little training... which isn't provided (or even recommended from what I can see) by the state, or instructors of the average road code type training. If he knew he had a way out he would have chosen it. Going by the coroners resport, he didn't, he froze
3) He did take something with him. There were two innocents in the car, and I'm willing to bet the bus driver has nightmares aboiut this for a long time to come.

You're right - that could have been your family, or my family exposed to risk by his driving, and that's seomthing I'm happy to hold him accountable for, but to offer no sympathy or condolences to him or his family?

That sounds like the actions of a man with a grudge...

RIP to all involved, and my sympathy to the bus driver

[terbang]

Its a real human factor allright. You see it a lot in aviation and it can be put to good use as well in some instances.
Where you look you will go and if you don't continue scanning your picture (whats coming at yer through yer eyes) then you will impact right where you are looking. Teaching student pilots to land is a classic they pick a point on the runway and if they fixate on it too much then that is where the nosewheel ends up followed by much porpoising and nervous intervention by the instructor. Similar problem when we learnt low level night ops which can end up in an ugly scene particularily over water at night with a single light on the surface..
The trick is to train your eyes to continually scan what is up ahead, to look further ahead and rely on your peripheral vision for a lot of cues. It can be learned (and must be as planes don't allways crash on landing). I saw a mention of this recently on another thread (think it was Goblin) that had had an experience with fixation on a rock or something. I think we all experience it on our bikes a lot more than we realise. I personally have found that in LH corners and with an, opposite direction, Cage suddenly coming into view I have run a bit wide towards it because I have probably taken too longer look at it.

[pritch]

Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy. No condolences either, it could have been someone I cared about that he took out. Stuff him.


Sorry folks, but I'm with Lou.

There is a whole industry in most of the Western world making excuses for why people stuff up. Psychologists, criminologists, social workers, counsellors, all basically dedicated to dreaming up excuses for what amounts to basic human failings like greed, anger, or stupidity. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

In this case Darwin had his way, and I'd go further than Lou and say if this guy and his passengers died before they had a chance to breed yet more idiots, that's a bonus.

I must be getting old and grumpy...

[Motu]

I saw a sad case of target steering a few years ago at a trolley derby - there was a corner on the hill and one kid lost it there,he saved it and took off down a side street used as a safety road.The crowd cheered his good work - but I was directly behind him on the otherside of the corner and could see what was going down....the kid was target steering on a parked car and had frozen at the controls.There was no way I could jump the barrier or warn people on the otherside of the road,and we all watched as he went under the car.The people closer may not of known about target steering,and possibly too close to see the bigger picture I could.The youngster saved it and lost it at the same time....

[jonbuoy]

Sorry folks, but I'm with Lou.

There is a whole industry in most of the Western world making excuses for why people stuff up. Psychologists, criminologists, social workers, counsellors, all basically dedicated to dreaming up excuses for what amounts to basic human failings like greed, anger, or stupidity. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

In this case Darwin had his way, and I'd go further than Lou and say if this guy and his passengers died before they had a chance to breed yet more idiots, that's a bonus.

I must be getting old and grumpy...

Yup he stuffed up by fixating on the danger not an escape route - he could have taken evasive action but he didn't. No ones making excuses, it something that happens to everyone.

[Ixion]

I think we all experience it on our bikes a lot more than we realise. I personally have found that in LH corners and with a, opposite direction, Cage suddenly coming into view I have run a bit wide towards it because I have probably taken too longer look at it.


Yes, I have that happen too. Sometimes I have to deliberately pull my eyes away. In time you get to recognise it's happening.

I find that a long blink helps, sort of breaks the fixation. And while blinking roll your eyes so when you open them you are no longer looking direct at the target. Hard to blink at such moments though.

This is one of those things that only comes with experience. It can't really be taught, though instructors/mentors can help by pointing it out.

[terbang]

In this case Darwin had his way, and I'd go further than Lou and say if this guy and his passengers died before they had a chance to breed yet more idiots, that's a bonus.


Fixation is real and needs to be included in any training syllabus. Are drivers made aware of this problem at learner level..? So is death a suitable punishment for ignorance on whose behalf, the driver or the regulator..?




I must be getting old and grumpy...

Yup and I also think the necks also gettin a bit redder with time..

[jonbuoy]

Skidding straight into the back of a car instead letting go the break lever and passing on either side of the car.

Staring at loose seal or a pot hole and riding straight over it instead of around it.

All target fixation.

[terbang]

This is one of those things that only comes with experience. It can't really be taught, though instructors/mentors can help by pointing it out.

Thats why more experienced (whatevers) are generally better at what they do.
I am also a firm believer that knowledge is also power and that comes from good and appropriate training..

[Pixie]

Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy. No condolences either, it could have been someone I cared about that he took out. Stuff him.
He had a way out and didn't take it. Not to mention overtaking like Allah was going to protect him.
The best bit was that he hit something big and didn't take anyone other than his passengers with him.
He was probably feeling for the reset button as he stared at the oncoming vehicle.

16 years of staring at a CRT leaves a person with an almost insurmountable deficit in ocular scanning skills.

[Lou Girardin]

I make no apologies, I'm sick to death of the morons we allow on our roads.
Just this morning a guy in a truck reversed over one of our rental bikes that we were taking for a COF. It was right outside the shop and the bastard was too busy yakking on his fucking cellphone.
It was sheer luck that he didn't injure or kill the rider.

[pritch]

So is death a suitable punishment for ignorance on whose behalf, the driver or the regulator..?

I don't know how a regulator got involved in this... Let's keep it simple.

As was already implied; rather him (the driver) than me, or one of mine...

These idiots kill motorcyclists every day, if you want to feel sorry for them your choice.

[Scorpygirl]

Hi all

Thanks to everyone who has made comments on this thread so far. I haven't often started a thread but I thought the coroner's point on target fixation was an interesting one and worthy of getting some opinion on.

Cheers

[Lord Derosso]

It might explain how this old fart managed to hit a 4" post surrounding the old Parua Bay , Whangarei, boat club in 1978 after having a blowout on his old TS Yamie 185 trail bike at 90kpm, nearly being thrown off, crossing the road , hitting the dirt upright for 50 metres before jumping the ditch, staying on still at this stage and yet hitting that darn post and thrashing the bloody forks and been off work for weeks afterwards. I was still hanging onto the bars though my knee ended wrapped around the fence chain and caused a blood clot injury. I did see it coming but man... couldn't do much about it at the time. Funny about how the cagers stopped and looked as I was slowly 'dying 'on the ground but not one came and checked me out......
My riding mate on his Honda250XL? finally came back and got me sorted and trailer arrived etc but I was transfixed on that pole at the time. Of course I was was just a 18 year old bunny of course....

[Hawkeye]

This sounds like a very sad situation and one wonders what the fully licenced front passenger was saying or doing to try to save themselves.

The kid (16) was on a restricted. The passenger was on a full. The passenger should have been ensuring that they did not get into a situation that required him to try saving themselves. Overtaking 2 cages and then trying to get passed a 3rd (cage + horse float) in one manouver, on a short piece of straight is asking for problems.
Yes! sympathy for the bus driver who was doing no wrong. But a 16 year old 'boy racer'? I'm sorry, but overtaking 3 cages + a horse float is not bad judgement! It's moronic.

[Edbear]

The kid (16) was on a restricted. The passenger was on a full. The passenger should have been ensuring that they did not get into a situation that required him to try saving themselves. Overtaking 2 cages and then trying to get passed a 3rd (cage + horse float) in one manouver, on a short piece of straight is asking for problems.
Yes! sympathy for the bus driver who was doing no wrong. But a 16 year old 'boy racer'? I'm sorry, but overtaking 3 cages + a horse float is not bad judgement! It's moronic.




That's basically what I mean. What was the front passenger saying/doing? If it was me, and it has been me a few times, I firmly tell the youngun not to do it. We don't know what this young man was like, his attitude. I guess we may never know.

[terbang]

Fixation being only one of many errors..!

[Headbanger]

Nothing quite as exciting as focusing on a visor smudge at death speeds, while some deep normally quiet part of the brain screams "FFS, LOOK AT THE FUCKIN ROAD, LOOK AWAY FROM THE SMUDGE"

[Indoo]

That sounds like the actions of a man with a grudge...

As much as it pains me I have to agree with Lou. I think anyone who has attended fatal crashes, like Lou no doubt has, would share the same sentiment.

If it hadn't been a bus he would have killed a completely innocent party whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[scumdog]

Maybe the change from ox-cart to car was too much for him to handle??

But seriously:

Driving on a Learner licence and breaching the conditions of it?

You're screwed and it's going to cost you $400 and 25 demerits.

No mercy.

[Edbear]

If it hadn't been a bus he would have killed a completely innocent party whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.



He did - his three passengers.

[Lou Girardin]

He did - his three passengers.

Not entirely innocent. I'd bet this wasn't the first marginal thing he'd done that day and they were still letting him do it.

[Edbear]

Not entirely innocent. I'd bet this wasn't the first marginal thing he'd done that day and they were still letting him do it.




Fair comment, but I guess that's the problem with the news media, we get the story piecemeal and it's hard to judge a situation without all the facts.

[Pixie]

It might explain how this old fart managed to hit a 4" post surrounding the old Parua Bay , Whangarei, boat club in 1978 after having a blowout on his old TS Yamie 185 trail bike at 90kpm, nearly being thrown off, crossing the road , hitting the dirt upright for 50 metres before jumping the ditch, staying on still at this stage and yet hitting that darn post and thrashing the bloody forks and been off work for weeks afterwards. I was still hanging onto the bars though my knee ended wrapped around the fence chain and caused a blood clot injury. I did see it coming but man... couldn't do much about it at the time. Funny about how the cagers stopped and looked as I was slowly 'dying 'on the ground but not one came and checked me out......
My riding mate on his Honda250XL? finally came back and got me sorted and trailer arrived etc but I was transfixed on that pole at the time. Of course I was was just a 18 year old bunny of course....
There's something to be said for shutting your eyes and screaming like a girl then

[Pixie]

Maybe the change from ox-cart to car was too much for him to handle??

But seriously:

Driving on a Learner licence and breaching the conditions of it?

You're screwed and it's going to cost you $400 and 25 demerits.

No mercy.
They never let the village idiots loose on the ox carts,either.

[Lord Derosso]

There's something to be said for shutting your eyes and screaming like a girl then

And what is that suppose to mean ??? Last thing you do to close your eyes let alone open your mouth and catch the awaiting blowflies.

Not a sound out of this boy and funny how things really DO seem to slow down as you realise what is about to happen. Then again, I have been thrown off one bike at 90 kph and didn't have a chance to think or react until I hit the farm fence which may have saved my life that time.