Request for assistance from MAG

[James Deuce]

Suggestions in this thread. I'll post a copy of the email I'm going to send for suggestions/clarification on Monday morning.

Thanks in advance.

[James Deuce]

From Ixion:

Some source documents:

Cabinet briefing paper:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/...0-Strategy.pdf (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Cabinet-Paper-Road-Safety-To-2010-Strategy.pdf)
2010 Startegy review paper
http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/...een-report.pdf (http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Downloads/2010-Breen-report.pdf)

Scarey stuff.

[Squeak the Rat]

Jim,

I almost think that we need to send these links to MAG with a big overall request for help. The topic is bigger than the lack of consulation on the workshops.

If we're going to get into detail, we need some amunition to refute claims from this report, and it would appear the MAG have somehow managed to do this in the UK.

Some points I picked up that they might be able to help us with


Increase the age for bike learners
Bikes crash more
Bike crashes cost more
Bikers are therefore subsidised by the rest of the population
Claims that bikes are better enconomically and environmentally are false
Our ACC levies should increase as a result
Training does not make any difference to safety


We also need some tips on how to argue this a way that is most likely to achieve results.


I'll give it some more thought.....

P

[James Deuce]

That's what I'm thinking StR.

I'd like to be able to pick their brains and then hand over the outcome to BRONZ so they can use the process and methods that MAG have developed.

I'm not sure BRONZ will want it though, given the normal vehement response to any criticism levelled at them.

[jimbo600]

What a load of old bollocks. If they want the social cost to come down then teach people to drive properly for fucks sake. They should have a tiered licensing system. When you get a license you're issued a green plate and are restricted to say 80kmh, as you obtain more experience you can go for a higher license such as white up to 120kmh and red up to 140kmh. This would encourage people to better their skill sets and reward them with certain privileges. It would also however make a dent into the govt coffers and as such would be observed dimly by the govt.

[Hitcher]

That Breen Report takes the bun. It contains some interesting statistics and interpretations thereof. I wonder how much it cost?

I am constantly astounded as to how driver training is ignored as a safety measure by these so-called experts. Safer roads, safer vehicles, greater enforcement, lower speeds, soberer drivers, but all predicated on an assumption that the useless fuckers already know how to drive a vehicle and are familiar with the road code. Sheesh.

[Blackbird]

That Breen Report takes the bun. It contains some interesting statistics and interpretations thereof. I wonder how much it cost?

I am constantly astounded as to how driver training is ignored as a safety measure by these so-called experts. Safer roads, safer vehicles, greater enforcement, lower speeds, soberer drivers, but all predicated on an assumption that the useless fuckers already know how to drive a vehicle and are familiar with the road code. Sheesh.


I wholeheartedly agree. Not that it will make any fu***ng difference, but I posted this on the Safe As website. I could have gone on for ever, but at least I felt better for having written something.

As a fellow biker says, "Speed doesn't kill people, stupidity kills people". As a motorcyclist (and car driver) with 40 years experience, my time on a motorcycle has taught me that you never stop learning driving skills. I have put myself through advanced car and motorcycle courses to give myself additional skills. It is arguable that the average driver having passed their test believes that they have adequate skills for the rest of their lives which is clearly nonsense

Reducing road speeds impacts on the economy. Increasing fines etc is punitive rather than educational. If we are serious about improving road accident rates then we have to improve the standard of driving through better training. Inattention/poor observation was a major contributor to accidents as was the number of young and unlicensed (untrained) drivers.

Let's be imaginitive, not punitive!

[Squeak the Rat]

It's still worth doing this exercise. This whole debacle seems to got the passion up in people (which is good!).

Lets see what MAG have to say and present it to Bronz in a helpful manner. I'm sure they'd actually appreciate the input.

[Hitcher]

Meanwhile we could OIA the Ministry of Transport and LTNZ to death. If we felt so inclined...

[Squeak the Rat]

Meanwhile we could OIA the Ministry of Transport and LTNZ to death. If we felt so inclined...
Ok, I'll play - what's OIA? Is it like ATFOO (annoy the fuck out of)?

[Hitcher]

For a bureaucrat it is exactly like ATFOO. OIA is the Official Information Act, or in this context requests for information lodged under the provisions of said.

[Squeak the Rat]

And prey tell the correct procedure for lodging an OIA request....:innocent:

[The Stranger]

I'm not sure BRONZ will want it though, given the normal vehement response to any criticism levelled at them.


Get off your high horse Jim2.

I, and I feel most of the members of BRONZ are fine with constructive criticism, similarly we are only too happy to have any assistance we can get.

So I assure you your effort will be welcomed.

[RabidTraNZiT]

There are other things you could do as well. If you are called up for jury service at any time, just remember your last trumped-up speeding ticket, and repeat after me...

"Not Guilty!".

Taking any case to trial costs a huge amount of money, and the prosecution has a virtually bottomless wallet, as opposed to any of us.

Hanging a jury is your democratic right as a juror, if you have any doubts whatsoever about the case or the standard of evidence, and you don't even have to give a reason! As bikers under attack, we now have a reason to punish the justice system just as it seeks to punish us for indulging in our passion. Every motorcyclist should take it upon themselves to help preserve what little democracy we still have left.

It is our duty.

Obviously, child molesters etc would be exempt from our collective generosity, they are always guilty, and are best kept in the care of "loving fellow inmates" that will "take care" of them...

Ride hard, ride safe.

[James Deuce]

Get off your high horse Jim2.


You've obviouslty missed the adage about flies and honey.

[The Stranger]

You've obviouslty missed the adage about flies and honey.

So Jim2, How about taking up the role of co-ordinator for BRONZ in the Wellington area.

We need the Wellington branch re-established and it would be a damn site easier with somenone from the area on board.

We can help out with necessary documentation and infrustructure etc. Got an idea or 2 which may assist with membership.

What do you say honey?

[Deano]

Meanwhile we could OIA the Ministry of Transport and LTNZ to death. If we felt so inclined...

You mean LGOIMA ?

[Macktheknife]

Hanging a jury is your democratic right as a juror, if you have any doubts whatsoever about the case or the standard of evidence, and you don't even have to give a reason! As bikers under attack, we now have a reason to punish the justice system just as it seeks to punish us for indulging in our passion. Every motorcyclist should take it upon themselves to help preserve what little democracy we still have left.

It is our duty.

Obviously, child molesters etc would be exempt from our collective generosity, they are always guilty, and are best kept in the care of "loving fellow inmates" that will "take care" of them...

Ride hard, ride safe.
RT, are you as nuts as this comment makes you seem?
First, if you get a hung jury, they have a retrial, which only takes more money from the coffers of taxpayers.
Second, why would you want to leave the serious violent offenders out there any longer to try to make some bizarre point about feeling victimised by the system.
Third, total support on the kiddiefiddlers.

[RabidTraNZiT]

RT, are you as nuts as this comment makes you seem?
First, if you get a hung jury, they have a retrial, which only takes more money from the coffers of taxpayers.
Second, why would you want to leave the serious violent offenders out there any longer to try to make some bizarre point about feeling victimised by the system.
Third, total support on the kiddiefiddlers.

I'm only nuts on my bike. :)

Sorry dude, just venting. I just read the Breen road saftey report, and was typing thru a red mist. Now that my blood pressure is back 2 normal again I will make the following points...

Aussie cops call Highway Patrol cops jury fuckers - that is where the idea came from

Violent offenders are needed in prison to take care of the kiddy fiddlers.

Most of the bullshit laws are RMA related, so juries don't get near them... Sadly.

Apologies to anybody I may have offended, but it appears that the government wants to turn all bikers into crims.

And I feel all bikers should respond in turn by making life harder for the government.

Ride hard, ride safe.

[Brian d marge]

Where did they get there figures from , almost imeadiately it starts waffling on about Novice drivers, speed and Alchole ( spanish for the crap I drink ) !

Hand on folks what about the other 35 odd percent of fatalitys caused by ...crossing the centre line ,,,for example ( I have the break down of figures some where and drink , diriving speed and young drivers are certainly there BUT not as bad as the others ,,,,)

I am going to have to find them, I think !

I just sat my drivers test again here in Japan. I have to resit it after the first year , then after the 3 rd year. They spent a good deal of time breaking down the accident figures to show HOW and WHY these accidents occured . interesting Youth and inexperience does account but ....

MAG or who ever need to use data from the European institute to SHOW that nz DRIVERS ARENT TO BAD but THE OUTDATED THINKING OF ltsa NEEDS TO BE REMOVED.

here (http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications/eng_publications/speed_review/Speed_Review_Report.pdf) is the speed review from canada


here (http://www.cemt.org/JTRC/) is the OECD website ,, on traffic Safety

here (http://www.dma.org/%7Eganotedp/85th.htm) is an article on the 85 percentile factor

From my own view of NZ drivers , they werent that bad overall except Sometimes 100 km/h was to fast ,,( but they did it anyway )

and 50 km/h was to slow sometimes

IMHO

As long as successive governments follow the world banks policys, then all government dept will be made to try to reduce the govenment money spent on them , by what ever means. In the Polices case , you cant ignore that speed is a cash cow , 1/2 million cars over the Auckland Harbour bridge, 15 percent speeding ... Happy camers back at the office.


Here in Japan, we all have cheap medical insurance , and the hospitals are private , ( ones round here are ), they are cheap efficient and are not funded from the state coffers ( not much anyway )
Result , We Never see police revenue grabbing, in fact yesterday I saw a speed trap and its the 2 one I have seen in 6 years of living here ...

Good luck

But untill the average joe says enough is enough ... I wont hold my breath

Stephen

[Hellraiser]

OOOOOOKKKK I'll ask the question then .........

What is BRONZ doing about this issue as we type?

[The Stranger]

OOOOOOKKKK I'll ask the question then .........

What is BRONZ doing about this issue as we type?

Unfortunately, I am not able to answer that. This is a question which should be directed to BRONZ. I can offer to find out and shall in time. However I would encourage you to contact BRONZ yourself.

The reason I say that is that it will mean more to the powers that be when they realise that this issue is causing angst and more people are looking to them to sort it out.

If I take every issue to them they see 1 person each time. If a dozen challenge them I believe it will cause more of a shake up.

[Hitcher]

If a dozen challenge them I believe it will cause more of a shake up.
Policy analysts tend to be more swayed by quality of argument rather than quantity. Bless them.

[The Stranger]

Policy analysts tend to be more swayed by quality of argument rather than quantity. Bless them.

Shit Hitcher, and I thought you lived in NZ.
Tell me, which country has these mythical policy analists?

[Ixion]

Policy analysts tend to be more swayed by quality of argument rather than quantity. Bless them.

But, politicians tend to be more swayed by quantity of noise rather than quality of argument.

[Ixion]

OOOOOOKKKK I'll ask the question then .........

What is BRONZ doing about this issue as we type?

Well, not quite as we type, but four of the BRONZ Auckland committee made the effort to ride down to Hamilton last night to take on the bureaucrats. Now, if we'd had , say, 100 of the other Auckland members along, instaed of half a dozen we'd have had even more impact. So, you were saying .... ?

[Hellraiser]

Now, if we'd had , say, 100 of the other Auckland members along, instaed of half a dozen we'd have had even more impact. So, you were saying .... ?

It was rather short notice so alot of people couldn't make the trip.

If there is going to be something organised for the whakatane one then i'll be in for the trip. Like you said if 100 bikes rolled up then they would take more notice

[candor]

"And prey tell the correct procedure for lodging an OIA request...."

It is too easy. Little effort required as u can do by e-ml.
I have lodged billions in the last 2 years including demanding that CEOs be the one to respond. Thats really fun. And can be done because some of them are accounrtable for certain thing under the Land Transport act.

For instance I sent Wayne Donnelly 20 pages of genuine tricky questions!

His responses had an irritated edge to them. This was how I discovered 70% of our vehicle ie cage fleet is frontal defective. One of the reasons for the speed crap.

Mostly they must answer within 21 days, someone told me there's only about 17 staff at LTNZ and they keep leaving in disgust if they're at all decent types. I like to keep the stayers busy. While learning more all the time.

One request that would have found who was to blame for the frontal defect imports they said I'd have to search overr 5000 papers so they'd have to charge me a couple grand.

My co-attacker also does a lot of digging too. He tends to get sent huge bundles free of charge in the hope he'll give up before getting to juicey bits.

So all u do is say its a request under OIA, specify, give your full name, address and telephone contact too. If they don't send a confirm saying its recieved or referred to so and so then follow up with ph call as this may mean they've deliberately misplaced your request. They have 21 days by law.

Just ask them for everything concerning bikes and policy since 04 or so - that will keep them "busyas". See you there!

[Hitcher]

Government agencies and Ministers have to respond to an OIA request within 20 working days. If they don't, or if you think they have unnecessarily withheld relevant information, or if you are just dissatisfied with their response, you can appeal to the Ombudsman. They hate that.

[Lou Girardin]

Unfortunately, I am not able to answer that. This is a question which should be directed to BRONZ. I can offer to find out and shall in time. However I would encourage you to contact BRONZ yourself.

.

This is the problem. No one knows what Bronz is doing, apart from the insiders.

[The Stranger]

This is the problem. No one knows what Bronz is doing, apart from the insiders.

So become an insider Lou.