the progressive workers' strike

[oldrider]

I think your living in the 70's

Interesting comment, in the seventies I was a Union delegate! :shit: John.

[Lou Girardin]

This strike has gone on way too long. Any benefits Distribution Workers Union members may have hoped to achieve have well and truly been torched. And this strike was never about money either, rather it has been about a bunch of technical union stuff designed to increase their muscle in the longer term. I feel sorry for low-income families that are being badly hurt to salve the egos of their leaders. Why, why, why, dear Laila?

So, when does principle end and capitulation start?

[Skyryder]

Response to Skyryder's challenge above.

I think I could confidently claim to having "been there done that" from all the strategic positions in the spectrum and my conclusions are based upon that experience.

In all of my union years, almost all of the talk was generated on how to screw the "employer" but by comparison, I can not think of a time when managers gathered together to talk of how they could screw the "employee"!

This is the singular biggest surprise to me following the transition from the "shop floor" to a middle to quite high "management role!"

Nearly all of the focus of the management team with respect to employees, was to try to establish a satisfactory work environment.

Unions depend on disruption and spreading dissatisfaction, in order to create an environment of distrust towards "they" the managers and employers that are constantly trying to "screw" them. (The workers) This is the view cultured by the unions.

These strikes and actions are more about the survival of the unnecessary third party of industry, the "representative" and the bigger the union body, the more hungry they are to survive as unnecessary industrial parasites.

Unions are little more than another form of taxation, bleeding the workers for a share of their already overtaxed earnings and to make things worse the union pays a large portion of that money to the Labour party funding to make sure that the situation remains in their favour.

The weapon that the unions use against their membership is "fear!"

Lies and distortion of facts fuel the fear in the minds of their members, Labour governments pass legislation making Union membership compulsory and the grip on the unsuspecting worker tightens and tightens.

The part that astounds me is that there are employers who are so stupid and down right lazy, that they not only aid and abet this system by their inaction, they actually subscribe to it.

Ownership of the business or industry is only red herring thrown in by the unions as part of the fear factor, ownership onshore/offshore, is totally irrelevant.

This post is not intended to inflame this topic, I am just trying to share my life experience with those who care to think about it. :yes: Cheers John.


As one who has worked under a National Union Agreement and the Employment Contract Act which was chaperoned by the Buisness Roundtable you are once again wrong. The Employment Contract's Act was put in place by National with consultation by the Emplyers Federation, Federated Farmers and others that I now no longer recall. There has always been 'consultation by employers in how to look after their interests at the expense of those that work for them. It is why their are buisness associations across the broad spectrum of the buisness community. There are some buisness that go beyond the call of duty in this reguard.

I have no idea where you get the idea of fear from. I have been involved in the Trade Union movement for some time, those that disagree with Union policy have never been in fear. Certainly not in New Zealand. In fact I am of the opionion that the Trade Uniosts have been in fear of Management and their thugs. For proof of that I have only to mention the name of Earnie Abbot. For those that do not recall the name Earnie Abbot was the cleaner that was blown up by a bomb that was left in the Wellington Trades Hall. His killer has never been bought to justice.

Yes Or there has been Unions who have used the bat so too has managment. Henry Ford is one who first comes to mind. And it would be mindless to pusue this any further as to the rights and wrongs.

The Trade Union movement is about looking after those that for whatever reason do not have the skills to look after their own interests.

Contrary to what most people think trade union officials are not highly paid. It's an ideology that provides the 'working' incentive. Many might disagree with the ideology and that is their right, but make no mistake it's hard work spending all you life asking so that others may benifit. It's a commitment that few are prepared to make.

Skyryder

[Hitcher]

Well Hitcher .. I work in one of three sites that our company has .. we used to have a prob with a us & them mentality even though we all did the same work and worked for the same outfit .. a collective has certainly pulled the three sites together and we work to a common goal .. much better culture and relationships between sites are much better .. so sorry i do not agree with you

Without knowing the details of your "collective", or the location of your three sites, I have nothing to reference your comments against. We may or may not be in disagreement.

[Hitcher]

So, when does principle end and capitulation start?

Unless that's a rhetorical question, I guess we'll find out soon enough?

[chanceyy]

Without knowing the details of your "collective", or the location of your three sites, I have nothing to reference your comments against. We may or may not be in disagreement.

well needless to say the conditions were not the same on the three sites and caused plenty of friction ... by having delegates on all three sites & union organisers & management & HR all working together a collective has been obtained, yes this did involve give & take on both sides but it has unified the workers

now the friction has gone .. & good working relationships are being formed between the sites, now we are all working to the same goal

I also know that I am fortunate to be working in such a company where everyone on both sides are working to the same goal... but i also know that there are a number of companies who are taking advantage of those ppl who can not or do not thave the skills to stand up for themselves ... so yes there is a need for a union .. & thank god for that

[Skyryder]

Interesting comment, in the seventies I was a Union delegate! :shit: John.


So was I.

I could tell the story of how a Union delgate made me unemployed. Left me bitter for many years against the Trade Union movement. But this was the action of one man and it would be wrong to blame the whole movemment because of one man.

Could also tell the story of why I resigned from the AWU when I was at Redbus. But none of these indicents changed my ideology or my support for the 'working class.'

It is fashionable today to blame everyone for todays problems. Someone wont give me this. The government takes that. It's their fault not mine. e.g.Labour misspent x amount of dollars of our money and everyones forgotten that so too did National with their 'pledge' card. We have as nation and a people lost the ability to rationalise with a consesus veiw. It's as if we are looking down a tunnel and can only see the light at the end and not the walls. And half the nation are at one end and the other half at the other. And each is pissed off because they both think that they should be at the other end of the tunnel.

We do not work as a Nation and a team because we have sold our Nation hood and the assets that go with it.

This lockout is a lockout of New Zealanders, our compatriots by an Australian Company and some here support this lockout. That as a Trade Unionist, and a kiwi if find disgracefull.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

I agree, but unfortunately, most workers don't get the chance to negotiate anything.

No matter what the law says, if you are at the bottom of the pile and as talented as all get out there is zero chance of negotiating anything - it's take it or leave it.

I have been involved in all sorts of interesting situations regarding this type of arrangement and collective agreements are the best bet for this type of job. Individually, you WILL get screwed.

I don't understand why we always compare ourselves to off shore economies?

This is New Zealand. We can do things our own way, we don't need to be like (god forbid) america or england or anything else. Its a bloody grouse place to live and it was made so on the backs of all the 'little' people doing jobs many people here would turn their noses up at.

Look, we go on about the tall poppy syndrome etc, bollocks, it does not exist. Kiwis love to see people do well if they earn it by being clever or hardworking and are still decent folks. Shit, they even love people that win Lotto. The tall poppies are bloody dorks that have some sort of attention seeking trait that made em rich (usually by shitting on someone else or doing something dodgy) and then they get all bloody smug and preachy about it and surprise surprise, they get hammered. Quite rightly and it happens everywhere. Christ, would you praise those wanker americas cup sailors that jumped ship?? screw them.

CONVERSELY, there are people who are happy with smaller lives, they don't need, want or desire massive riches, they just want to lead a life with a regular pay packet, enough comfort and some spare coin. Often they are quite aware of their limitations and are perfectly happy. They don't need Donald trumps life and wouldn't have it if you gave it to them.... The problem is, the Donald Trumps don't like that because they think they are so damn special everyone wants to be them... NO THEY DON'T.

These 'little' people have a hard won right to organise themselves into a union to collectively protect what they see as thei rights. They are legally entitled to do so and in this particular case, from what I have read they are being treated shamefully by a foreign company.

Whats bloody wrong with you people? Are you so used to being pushed around by that gay cow and her high school teacher bullies you all lost your friggin balls?? (if so, benson pope has some for ya) These folks are within their hard earned rights and not asking for much and are prepared to suffer for a principle and I admire them for having the guts to do it 'cos it is NOT an easy thing to do. They are your fellow Kiwis and they might just be right and I say support them even if you don't 100% agree with em, screw progressive cos if it comes to a fight, who are you backing, the local guy or the multi national? Go the little guys, stick up for yourselves and I know where i'm shopping until this is done.

Paul N

New Zealander and bloody proud of it.

Good post Paul.

Just another reason why you are worth a bottle of Malt.

Skyryder

[Finn]

6) Wish I could make 5'6"..!

You should stick to driving taxi's and leave the jokes for me.

[Finn]

now thats a stupid comment finn

Sorry, I don't do stupid. You must have me confused with someone else.

The "let's screw business" policies of this government coupled with the laziness, lack of intergrity and work ethics of the average kiwi is not condusive to a favourble environment for business. It's worse if you hire maori's. Years ago, I had one maori person in my company that went to 6 funerals in one year, had 36 sick days off, was always late and was useless when they made a guest appearence. We went through a process to get rid of this person and they took us to the tribunal. We lost because the person was maori and were told to pay $5000 for wrongful dismisal. Of course we didn't pay and never will but that's beside the point. This person affected everybody around them and caused many problems.

So what did we learn from this? Never hire a maori and we never have since then.

[Madness]

The only benefit to anybody as a result of all this is to Foodstuffs & it's affiliates. Surely that's idiotic business practice in itself. Laila Harre is looking awfully old too, I heard a rumor she's sleeping with Margaret Wilson.

[chanceyy]

Sorry, I don't do stupid. You must have me confused with someone else.

The "let's screw business" policies of this government coupled with the laziness, lack of intergrity and work ethics of the average kiwi is not condusive to a favourble environment for business. It's worse if you hire maori's. Years ago, I had one maori person in my company that went to 6 funerals in one year, had 36 sick days off, was always late and was useless when they made a guest appearence. We went through a process to get rid of this person and they took us to the tribunal. We lost because the person was maori and were told to pay $5000 for wrongful dismisal. Of course we didn't pay and never will but that's beside the point. This person affected everybody around them and caused many problems.

So what did we learn from this? Never hire a maori and we never have since then.


ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm you do not do stupid ... well sorry you just did, 2nd time in one nite ..

I guess your of the once bitten twice shy brigade, however its not a race related thing ... its the moralistic, ethical fibre of a person ... i know some extremely hard working Maori people & i know some extremely lazy other breeds .. as for me .. i am a mongrel but hey i work damn hard & I fit any outside activity around my work schedule ..

& I dispute the average kiwi is lazy with a lack of ingetrity .. I know some pretty damn well hard working individuals .. you need to stop lumping everyone under the same banner ..

[oldrider]

As one who has worked under a National Union Agreement and the Employment Contract Act which was chaperoned by the Buisness Roundtable you are once again wrong. The Employment Contract's Act was put in place by National with consultation by the Emplyers Federation, Federated Farmers and others that I now no longer recall. There has always been 'consultation by employers in how to look after their interests at the expense of those that work for them. It is why their are buisness associations across the broad spectrum of the buisness community. There are some buisness that go beyond the call of duty in this reguard.

I have no idea where you get the idea of fear from. I have been involved in the Trade Union movement for some time, those that disagree with Union policy have never been in fear. Certainly not in New Zealand. In fact I am of the opionion that the Trade Uniosts have been in fear of Management and their thugs. For proof of that I have only to mention the name of Earnie Abbot. For those that do not recall the name Earnie Abbot was the cleaner that was blown up by a bomb that was left in the Wellington Trades Hall. His killer has never been bought to justice.

Yes Or there has been Unions who have used the bat so too has managment. Henry Ford is one who first comes to mind. And it would be mindless to pusue this any further as to the rights and wrongs.

The Trade Union movement is about looking after those that for whatever reason do not have the skills to look after their own interests.

Contrary to what most people think trade union officials are not highly paid. It's an ideology that provides the 'working' incentive. Many might disagree with the ideology and that is their right, but make no mistake it's hard work spending all you life asking so that others may benifit. It's a commitment that few are prepared to make.

Skyryder

He said, I said, we said,so many men, so many opinions, I have offered my opinion, you have expressed yours, our perception is our reality!

The worst example of any Union that I have had any association with is the Seaman's Union, 1960 to 1965.

I think the parasite consumed the host in this case and lead to the demise of New Zealand shipping industry.

I would be afraid legally to post about my experiences with this organisation!

F P Walsh of the Seaman's Union was the first President of the Federation of Labour.(that I am aware of)

His true history would make very interesting reading, "fear" , say no more!

Poor old Ernie, they never caught the bomber because........?

There is an old saying, "hoist with his own petard" , makes you wonder, what really happened?

You are quite correct about Henry Ford but it was, like does, as like does, back then, the birth days of the union movement for which I have a lot of appreciation and sympathy but it has outlived itself today!

When compulsory unionism was legislated out, they almost disappeared, because nobody really wanted the extra cost burden of paying for them to exist and add no value to their lives. Market forces in action!

The only union that I have total respect for and believe that they did a good job, was the cleaners union.

My wife was a school cleaner and while she was a member, she did not ever actively participate but I used to read all their material that they sent to her.

I rated their integrity, performance and dedication to their members very highly, I even believe they added value to the industries they were associated with.

I still think the people involved in the action that promoted this thread are being used for something far greater than their immediate action. Poor buggers! :shutup: John.

[chanceyy]

I hear that Don Brash has lost the backing of the brethern .................................................. ............................

but has picked up the morman's votes :done:

[Finn]

The only benefit to anybody as a result of all this is to Foodstuffs & it's affiliates.

And me. Prog are a good customer of ours and we're doing heaps more work for them to support their distribution problem.

[Ixion]

There's not much that anyone could say about that treacherous, traitorous bastard Patrick Fintan Walsh that would be worse than the reality.

may he rot in the lowest circles of Hell. He an his like are certainly not what the union movement is about.

[ManDownUnder]

Why look at others?

Lets look at ourselves. If we can all make our own lot better, wont the lot of NZ as a whole be better too?

Yes people that came from nothing and rose to riches are inspirational (when that inspiration is deserved), but it's not uncommon if you have the want to actually do some work.

For God's sake you don;t even need an IQ of note. If you can swing a hammer, dig a hole, clean shit out of blocked dunnies... you're welathy in the lazy land of ours...

'nuff said - I'm back off to my corner
MDU
PS Come to the home show, stand 49 New Water, buy one of the fucken things and help me on the way to my fortune... see - I'm practising what I preach...

[Finn]

I dispute the average kiwi is lazy with a lack of ingetrity .. I know some pretty damn well hard working individuals .. you need to stop lumping everyone under the same banner ..

Look mum, I didn't. I said the "average" kiwi. That's not all of them but it's quite a lot.

[chanceyy]

And me. Prog are a good customer of ours and we're doing heaps more work for them to support their distribution problem.



ahhhhh so now we know what the story is finn .. your company is lining its pockets off this issue lmfao .. that explains it ..


thought you had walked away from this thread .. can not stay away huh ;)
all 5'6 of you hehehehehe sorry i thought that was pretty witty so had to give bling ..

[Finn]

Why look at others?

Lets look at ourselves. If we can all make our own lot better, wont the lot of NZ as a whole be better too?

ManDownUnder for Miss Universe! :innocent:

good point though

[chanceyy]

Look mum, I didn't. I said the "average" kiwi. That's not all of them but it's quite a lot.

hmmmmmmmmmmm


So what did we learn from this? Never hire a maori and we never have since then.

but it is all of maori is it not ... ??

[Finn]

ahhhhh so now we know what the story is finn .. your company is lining its pockets off this issue lmfao .. that explains it ..


Our pockets are already lined. This is just a bonus. After I've spent this on another bike I might buy the staff a Pizza for lunch tomorrow and watch 50 of them fight over it. I'll call it a team building exercise.

[ManDownUnder]

ManDownUnder for Miss Universe! :innocent:

good point though

And the best bit... I learned that as part of my business management degree. So those management bastards are actually the ones that are calling for the lot of everyone to be improved...

unfortunately that involves relying on others to work hard too - which can be a let down if they're on a reliable wage... they "get paid by the hour - not by what they do"... a mantra I learned at my first job... kind of ironic isn't it?

[Finn]

but it is all of maori is it not ... ??

That's the sad thing, I'll never know.

I don't like corrupt governments telling me how to run my business while they steal from me.

[ManDownUnder]

That's the sad thing, I'll never know.

I don't like corrupt governments telling me how to run my business while they steal from me.

Taxation and theft are not the same... they have a different number of letters for a kick off...

[Finn]

Taxation and theft are not the same... they have a different number of letters for a kick off...

I don't have a problem with tax, just the percentage and waste of it.

[chanceyy]

That's the sad thing, I'll never know.



hmmmmmmm but you already know finn, cause you have already pre judged ppl based on race with that previous comment ..


Our pockets are already lined. This is just a bonus. After I've spent this on another bike I might buy the staff a Pizza for lunch tomorrow and watch 50 of them fight over it. I'll call it a team building exercise.

ahh nice you mention a nice new bike .. & yipeee the staff can fight over pizza .. yup showing your true colors finn ..

[TLDV8]

I guess there are are no other Boilermakers here or those familiar with the Boilermakers Federation... As far as whining immigrants,in all sincerity,if you do not like it here in New Zealand go back to where you came from.I will personally drive you to the Airport and wave you goodbye...Its like a !@#$ing broken record day in,day out :violin:

*
Every New Zealander like most any other Country has a choice in what they contribute to their society.Some will elect to be bludgers or victims,others will suck it up and do what they feel is right... Loose the rose coloured glass's,thats life whether you like it or not.

[The_Dover]

I will personally drive you to the Airport and wave you goodbye. :violin:

Will you pay my airfare and for my bike to be shipped back to scotland?

[TLDV8]

Will you pay my airfare and for my bike to be shipped back to scotland?

I might consider it if it involves the rear door of a C130.

[Jack the Ripper]

As far as whining immigrants, in all sincerity, if you do not like it here in New Zealand go back to where you came from. I will personally drive you to the Airport and wave you good bye. It's like a fucking broken record day in, day out.
Indeed, I share no sympathy for those, immigrant or not, that complain of the economic, political and social issues in New Zealand.

[Paul in NZ]

Well this is a great thread in that it is an interesting read but - there is a lot of twists and turns and misleading statements.

True - Unionisim has not always been a good thing, yes, in some times and places Unions were hijacked by the same selfish control freaks that often hijack management but that does not mean the concept of unionisim is faulty. Unions came about to get a better deal for the working man because of horrendous management practises. Without that, we would not have needed to invent unions.

The danger is that we think that because all this stuff happened in the past, it's 'historical' and it would not happen in this enlightened age. Not true.... It happens everyday.

The so called individual contracts offered to people at the lower end of the scale are not individual at all. They are infact a collective agreement because you can only ever earn inside a particular 'scale' and many companies use all sorts of tricks to make sure that they minimise their exposure to legally required staff benifits. 'Part time' employment being a classic and yes, various industries do conclude to effectively cap wages.

To suggest managers don't get together and invent ways to screw the workers is semi true. They do exactly that but they use different words, words like 'efficiency' and 'cost effective' and 'out source' especially when minutes are being taken. Example, a few years back I was involved in negotiations with a VERY large company to contract out a highly specialised technical job. Our company had kept accurate records for 10 years and knew exactly what it cost to do certain things. ie - it takes 5 man hours on average to do this job and you need these consumables and parts plus X amount of vehicle mileage etc.

We opened the books, shared all the facts and figures on what it cost to train these guys to the legally required standard and factored in the industry pay scale, annual leave etc etc. We stated up front what we expected to make in the way of a operating profit etc and pointed out we had never ever had a serious accident or a major client affecting outage using this system.

We didn't get the work. The customer found a service provided that was willing to do the work using unqualified people at 3/4 of our break even price and in less than 2 years, that company went bust and the work was picked up by even less qualified staff working for a company in an allied field, then it was all outsourced to individual contractors working at a fixed price. During the time, the large company managed to have the 'qualifications' needed to do the job reduced to 'has the ability to breathe' and the managers that oversaw this, all got paid bonusses that by far exceded the amount saved.... Go figure....

Another trade got shafted and time served tradesmen are earning much less than they did. Most of the good ones left the industry or went to Australia and the wrecking crew went on to the next trades group and 'out sourced' that. Did they screw the workers? Effectively yes they did, they just don't call it that, they are a lot more sophisticated.

The balance of power swings both ways - no one wants to go back to the bad old days of super powerful unions but I for one don't want to go back to the industrial revolution either.

Incidentally - I work for a Japanese company. They look after their long term staff, promote from within and believe in staff development, profit share etc etc. Never been happier.

My wife works for a Kiwi company and has to fight tooth and nail for everything from incompetent middle managers that are actually incentivised to keep her wages low and make sure she attains the 'right' targets. ie ones that keep the company profitable but not so good that they have to pay bonusses. Loverly.... She needs a union I reckon but just the mention of the word would get her fired in a week.

Paul N

[Finn]

hmmmmmmm but you already know finn, cause you have already pre judged ppl based on race with that previous comment

I didn't pre judge nuffink. I gave this person an equal opportunity and learnt that because of their race, I had to provide them with special treatment such as giving them extra time off to attend funerals for some people they'd never met. It's not fair on other staff or the company.

That's why I won't hire anymore until they are treated equally. In fact it was an MP who asked "with special treatment for maori, why would anybody employ them?"

This government is doing maori a huge disservice.

[cowboyz]

Finn. I am interested to know who you employ? You don't employ Maori because you have had a bad experience with one. The rest of your workforce? Have they such pay and conditions (education) that they can move to the position you are now at the age you are now? You have put yourself out there as the entrepreneur who is willing to shag a goat for a dollar so interested in how the staff in your company are feeling.

Or doesn't it matter because they are just poor scum who should have paid more attention at school?

[Swoop]

Taxation and theft are not the same...

Yes they are! They start with the same letter....

[Swoop]

and make sure she attains the 'right' targets. ie ones that keep the company profitable but not so good that they have to pay bonusses.
So she works for ASB Bank then???

[WINJA]

I didn't pre judge nuffink. I gave this person an equal opportunity and learnt that because of their race, I had to provide them with special treatment such as giving them extra time off to attend funerals for some people they'd never met. It's not fair on other staff or the company.

That's why I won't hire anymore until they are treated equally. In fact it was an MP who asked "with special treatment for maori, why would anybody employ them?"

This government is doing maori a huge disservice.

AND I GOTTA AGREE WITH FINN , SPECIAL CONDITIONS LIKE THAT ARE JUST LEGALISED RASICIAM

[WINJA]

Infact I Agree With Finn So Much Id Go As Far As To Say If I Was Him I Wouldnt Employ Any Females , It Might Not Sound Reasonable But Woman Are Generally Useless Compared To Men Eg , Employ A Man In The It Industry For Instance And Ask Him To Lift A Few Heavy Things And Shift A Desk And It Will Happen With Woman It Wont, Woman Generally Cant Be Used For Dual Purposes In The Work Place, Woman Get Pregnant And Woman Are More Likely To Raise False Sexual Harrasment Cases Which Sux Cause It Makes It Hard For The Genuine Cases, Forget All Of The Above For The Sex Industry Tho

[chanceyy]

Infact I Agree With Finn So Much Id Go As Far As To Say If I Was Him I Wouldnt Employ Any Females , It Might Not Sound Reasonable But Woman Are Generally Useless Compared To Men Eg , Employ A Man In The It Industry For Instance And Ask Him To Lift A Few Heavy Things And Shift A Desk And It Will Happen With Woman It Wont, Woman Generally Cant Be Used For Dual Purposes In The Work Place, Woman Get Pregnant And Woman Are More Likely To Raise False Sexual Harrasment Cases Which Sux Cause It Makes It Hard For The Genuine Cases, Forget All Of The Above For The Sex Industry Tho

Winja .. shut up get back in the kitchen & cook me dinner :innocent:

[Skyryder]

The worst example of any Union that I have had any association with is the Seaman's Union, 1960 to 1965.

I think the parasite consumed the host in this case and lead to the demise of New Zealand shipping industry.

I would be afraid legally to post about my experiences with this organisation!

F P Walsh of the Seaman's Union was the first President of the Federation of Labour.(that I am aware of)

His true history would make very interesting reading, "fear" , say no more!

Poor old Ernie, they never caught the bomber because........?

There is an old saying, "hoist with his own petard" , makes you wonder, what really happened?

You are quite correct about Henry Ford but it was, like does, as like does, back then, the birth days of the union movement for which I have a lot of appreciation and sympathy but it has outlived itself today!

When compulsory unionism was legislated out, they almost disappeared, because nobody really wanted the extra cost burden of paying for them to exist and add no value to their lives. Market forces in action!

The only union that I have total respect for and believe that they did a good job, was the cleaners union.

My wife was a school cleaner and while she was a member, she did not ever actively participate but I used to read all their material that they sent to her.

I rated their integrity, performance and dedication to their members very highly, I even believe they added value to the industries they were associated with.

I still think the people involved in the action that promoted this thread are being used for something far greater than their immediate action. Poor buggers! :shutup: John.

I have little knowledge of the Seamans Union or the background of the NZ shipping industry.

However I can recall a time when I was an 'observer' during talks when the tanker drivers were on strike I think it was about the mid eighties.

The Drivers Union were concerned about the prolonged effect this would have on the general public...............the response from the Oil companies cheif negotiator was and this is verbitm "I don't give a fuck about the public." Such was my introduction to the other side.


I could lump the Aussie Painter and Dockers Union in the fear catogory too, but this and the seamans Union are not representive of the union tradition. Fear and intimidation are and have not been employed as a union tactic. A tactic that your first post implied. The collective bargaining is the only way that any union can advance the cause of it's members. This is well known within buisness circles and was the main reason of the demise of the unions through the employment Relations Act. Destroy the collective bargaining position and the workers as indaviduals have no power to advance their cause.

The union movement in this country has been denigrated through succesive National Governments and it is because of this, and an anti union press, (before TV) that New Zealsnders have such a low opinion of unions. Yesterday this was called propaganda but today there is a new word for this; spin.

One only has to look at the history of the trade union movement http://www.tolpuddlemartyrs.org.uk/story_frms.html to understand the violence that has charectorised the early trade union movement.

Walsh does have this association but he was before my time. I have seen some things myself in the trade union movement that has made me ashamed of belonging the a particular union but as I said in my earlier post this does not alter the underlying principle of the trade union movement of which I am proud to adhere too.

The ultimate problem today in industrial relations is that management does not acknowledge the contribution that shop floor employees contribute to their buisness. They are seen only as a componet as a cost analysis figure for the production of a unit or a service. While this may be acceptable in purely financial terms it falls way short of acknowledging their true contribution to the companys profitability.

This to me is the heart of the Progressive lockout.

I suppose at the end of the day we can agree to disagree.

Maybe one day we should go for a ride and meet in the middle.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

Skyryder, the point that we do agree on is the lack of trust between parties and it is not like that without reason.
I have been in the position of having turned that around and it is so rewarding to everyone concerned when you can achieve it.
I believe that collective bargaining prevents that from being achieved at all because the ones making the decisions are too far removed from the point of action. Even the best will and intentions can not bridge that gap when the decision makers are too many steps away from the action.
The authority to make change or agreement has to be vested in the parties at the closest point of contact to build a meaningful working relationship.
The word bandied around in the late eighties, early nineties was "empowerment" and while it was misused and abused by some it really did work well for those that embraced it.
Even an individual employment contract with little room for fiscal movement can still be affective as long as both parties feel that they have "their" hands equally and firmly on the reins and have a true agreement within the bounds agreed upon.
I dislike Unions because they have nearly always proved to me that they have more interest in their political aspirations than they do for their members and prevent progress because of ideology, even when it is not in their members own interest. The same can be said for employers too that do not delegate and empower their managers to take responsibility for their own work environment.

You are so right about going for a ride, lets sign an "individual agreement" on that right now and "empower" ourselves to do it! We can even decide how much to spend! If it was left to those ladies indoors to decide, it might not get done at all because they don't share our immediate interests at heart! :shit: John.

[Lou Girardin]

Over far to many years of working for bosses, and being an employer. I've come to the conclusion that as long as your face fits, most bosses are ever so nice. As soon as there's an issue, even of a minor nature, you'll see their true colours.
I will no longer accept, "sure, it says that in the contract. But we'll never actually enforce it". I want my rights and conditions of employment protected in writing.

[Skyryder]

Skyryder, the point that we do agree on is the lack of trust between parties and it is not like that without reason.
I have been in the position of having turned that around and it is so rewarding to everyone concerned when you can achieve it.
I believe that collective bargaining prevents that from being achieved at all because the ones making the decisions are too far removed from the point of action. Even the best will and intentions can not bridge that gap when the decision makers are too many steps away from the action.
The authority to make change or agreement has to be vested in the parties at the closest point of contact to build a meaningful working relationship.
The word bandied around in the late eighties, early nineties was "empowerment" and while it was misused and abused by some it really did work well for those that embraced it.
Even an individual employment contract with little room for fiscal movement can still be affective as long as both parties feel that they have "their" hands equally and firmly on the reins and have a true agreement within the bounds agreed upon.
I dislike Unions because they have nearly always proved to me that they have more interest in their political aspirations than they do for their members and prevent progress because of ideology, even when it is not in their members own interest. The same can be said for employers too that do not delegate and empower their managers to take responsibility for their own work environment.

You are so right about going for a ride, lets sign an "individual agreement" on that right now and "empower" ourselves to do it! We can even decide how much to spend! If it was left to those ladies indoors to decide, it might not get done at all because they don't share our immediate interests at heart! :shit: John.

I have worked in many jobs over my working life. I have never seen an employer, one who has control of the fiscal accounts, even remotely concerned about the indaviduals working conditions or wages. These are people that in your words are where the ones making the decisions are too far removed from the point of action.

This is different from the shop floor manager who often sympathiszes with his employees due to the close working relationship. But he is not the accountant........the one making the costs of wages etc

As for negoteating on your own behalf..........all I can say it is a foolish lawyer who tries to defend himself. He may have the skills but emotiaons can cause mistakes. Self empowerment. Looks great in writing but the practacalities for the wage and saleray earner are usually insurmountable for him to negotiate successfully on his own behalf. And as for the indavidual useing the greivance clauses in the Employment relations act.........believe me I've tried that one on my own and got fucked up good and proper.

Most companies have a standard employment contract for their staff. This may vary with middle and senoir managment but for Joe Blogg it'a a take or leave situation. There is no negotian whatever.

The simple fact is, collective bargaining and national unification of workers brings a better return for the wage and saleries earners investment by way of union fees. Management know this and it's why the Progressives have locked out their employees.

Skyryder

PS My sige says it all.

[Skyryder]

Over far to many years of working for bosses, and being an employer. I've come to the conclusion that as long as your face fits, most bosses are ever so nice. As soon as there's an issue, even of a minor nature, you'll see their true colours.
I will no longer accept, "sure, it says that in the contract. But we'll never actually enforce it". I want my rights and conditions of employment protected in writing.

So do I Lou. It's when the meaning of what's written comes into dispute the indavidual will in most cases back down because of the employers power. Indavidual bargaining places the employee on a tilted playing field where the boss takes the high ground because he not only calls the toss, he tosses the coin, as well as owns the coin. It will be a one headed coin too. Collective bargaining reduces the game to a semblance of a level playing field but the half way line will always be in a position of favour too management. e.g. Negotians are nearly aways conducted in the environment of management. The retention of the status quo or a given answer of 'no.' is an easier course of action for managment than the Unions who are always in a position of having to ask. That is the way of things and any lawfull measure that will alleviate that problem can not be judged a bad thing. This is essentialy what the Good Faith clauses in the Employment Realtions Act address.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

I have worked in many jobs over my working life. I have never seen an employer, one who has control of the fiscal accounts, even remotely concerned about the indaviduals working conditions or wages. These are people that in your words are where the ones making the decisions are too far removed from the point of action.

Hay pay scales incorporate a margin for flexibility within the range for the job. An incentive range agreed upon and managed by both parties to the contract.

This is different from the shop floor manager who often sympathiszes with his employees due to the close working relationship. But he is not the accountant........the one making the costs of wages etc

That's just the gutless bastards excusing themselves from any responsibility, fucktards should not be managers or they have not been trained adequately.

As for negoteating on your own behalf..........all I can say it is a foolish lawyer who tries to defend himself. He may have the skills but emotiaons can cause mistakes. Self empowerment. Looks great in writing but the practacalities for the wage and saleray earner are usually insurmountable for him to negotiate successfully on his own behalf. And as for the indavidual useing the greivance clauses in the Employment relations act.........believe me I've tried that one on my own and got fucked up good and proper.

I have personally sent employees to training venues to learn how to negotiate on their own behalf. Adds value to them and to the company.

Most companies have a standard employment contract for their staff. This may vary with middle and senoir managment but for Joe Blogg it'a a take or leave situation. There is no negotian whatever.

I agree with you but that does not make it right. We are talking about industrial relations here, some do it right and some don't that is why there is an employment court.

The simple fact is, collective bargaining and national unification of workers brings a better return for the wage and saleries earners investment by way of union fees. Management know this and it's why the Progressives have locked out their employees.

Collective bargaining is just bullying from the employees position, just as locking out is bullying from the employers position. This is just a show of strength from both sides. A lose/lose situation in the making.

They are supposed to be negotiating in "good faith" that could be done by empowering for individual contracts. Any dispute is actioned without having to influence and inconvenience the business or fellow workers! I rest my case, look at the disruption to everyone that the case in question is causing

Skyryder

PS My sige says it all.

It must be windy at your place too, I guess that's why we are not riding our bikes! well stuff the wind I am going to go for a wee ride some where. Cheers John.

[mstriumph]

.................. It's worse if you hire maori's. Years ago, I had one maori person in my company that went to 6 funerals in one year, had 36 sick days off, was always late and was useless when they made a guest appearence. We went through a process to get rid of this person and they took us to the tribunal. We lost because the person was maori and were told to pay $5000 for wrongful dismisal. Of course we didn't pay and never will but that's beside the point. This person affected everybody around them and caused many problems.

So what did we learn from this? Never hire a maori and we never have since then.

people who generalize should be shot ...... :shutup:

[mstriumph]

.........................I Wouldnt Employ Any Females , It Might Not Sound Reasonable But Woman Are Generally Useless Compared To Men Eg , Employ A Man In The It Industry For Instance And Ask Him To Lift A Few Heavy Things And Shift A Desk And It Will Happen With Woman It Wont..................

you've obviously never worked with anyone like me

i have spent my working life doing three times the work of my male colleagues in half the time and to twice the standard for between 75% and 95% [here] of the pay

in the course of that i have shifted desks, changed lightbulbs, mopped up occassional vomit and a dozen other things that are so far removed from my job description that it's laughable

now - all that may make me stupid, but it CERTAINLY doesn't make me part of YOUR stereotype - so think again, please

[I]..... and where were my MALE colleagues when the a 'here and now' problem required immediate action???? hmmmmmmmmm mostly out the back having coffee or a smoke and living vicariously thru the exploits of their local footy team .........

oh :innocent: and i have NEVER laid a sexual harrassment charge against ANYONE [but i have to plead guilty to damaging one person who couldn't take no for an answer with an old imperial upright typewriter ....... altogether MUCH more satisfying, dontcha think?? ......... sheesh, those babies pack a wallop :confused: ........ ]

[chanceyy]

you've obviously never worked with anyone like me

i have spent my working life doing three times the work of my male colleagues in half the time and to twice the standard for between 75% and 95% [here] of the pay

in the course of that i have shifted desks, changed lightbulbs, mopped up occassional vomit and a dozen other things that are so far removed from my job description that it's laughable

now - all that may make me stupid, but it CERTAINLY doesn't make me part of YOUR stereotype - so think again, please

[I]..... and where were my MALE colleagues when the a 'here and now' problem required immediate action???? hmmmmmmmmm mostly out the back having coffee or a smoke and living vicariously thru the exploits of their local footy team .........

oh :innocent: and i have NEVER laid a sexual harrassment charge against ANYONE [but i have to plead guilty to damaging one person who couldn't take no for an answer with an old imperial upright typewriter ....... altogether MUCH more satisfying, dontcha think?? ......... sheesh, those babies pack a wallop :confused: ........ ]

LMFAO ^5 girl .. yes us woman certainly can put more into our jobs than the male counterparts

[Finn]

people who generalize should be shot ...... :shutup:

Same for people who can't spell generalise and use spell checker set to US English.

[WINJA]

LMFAO ^5 girl .. yes us woman certainly can put more into our jobs than the male counterparts

YEAH YEAH WHATEVER , I HEAR WOMAN TALKING ABOUT MULTI TASKING BUT WHATS THE POINT OF DOING 4 THINGS AT ONCE BUT NONE OF THEM PROPERLY , WOMAN ARE JUST LEACHES TAKING CREDIT FOR THE EFFORTS OF HARD WORKING MEN

[chanceyy]

YEAH YEAH WHATEVER , I HEAR WOMAN TALKING ABOUT MULTI TASKING BUT WHATS THE POINT OF DOING 4 THINGS AT ONCE BUT NONE OF THEM PROPERLY , WOMAN ARE JUST LEACHES TAKING CREDIT FOR THE EFFORTS OF HARD WORKING MEN

hmm winja getting on ya soapbox again .. & yes we multi-task doing 4 things at once and doing them absolutely properly :D

dunno where ya get the leaches bit from .. ohh wait guess you been around the wrong kinda woman ..

[WINJA]

hmm winja getting on ya soapbox again .. & yes we multi-task doing 4 things at once and doing them absolutely properly :D

dunno where ya get the leaches bit from .. ohh wait guess you been around the wrong kinda woman ..

LEACHES ,WHORES , ALL WOMAN ARE WHORES WE JUST PAY SOME OF THEM WITH MONEY

[chanceyy]

LEACHES ,WHORES , ALL WOMAN ARE WHORES WE JUST PAY SOME OF THEM WITH MONEY

hmm no winja .. not all I can not speak for other woman but i am defiantely not a leach and certainly not a whore ..


now your showing you discriminate side .. pity really ..... your sinking to new lows ..

[mstriumph]

Same for people who can't spell generalise and use spell checker set to US English.

t'was a joke, little buddy .......... a jolly jape, a jest, an irreverant leg-pull

...... and, as for spelling - well, i've never used a spell-checker of ANY sort, not EVER...

i am of the firm belief [having always held that my mother-tongue [as well as any other portion of the old darling's anatomy] is an evolving, rather than static, whatsit] that spelling should be imaginative to as great or lesser extent as suits the universe and i at the given moment.........

consequently, I AM the authority on how things are spelled or spelt or spilled or dribbled when they eminate from ME and am also the final and irrevocable judgement on grammar, grandmas and grandma's corsets ............

you didn't INVENT arrogance, you know ....... :lol:

[Finn]

t'was a joke, little buddy .......... a jolly jape, a jest, an irreverant leg-pull

...... and, as for spelling - well, i've never used a spell-checker of ANY sort, not EVER...

i am of the firm belief [having always held that my mother-tongue [as well as any other portion of the old darling's anatomy] is an evolving, rather than static, whatsit] that spelling should be imaginative to as great or lesser extent as suits the universe and i at the given moment.........

consequently, I AM the authority on how things are spelled or spelt or spilled or dribbled when they eminate from ME and am also the final and irrevocable judgement on grammar, grandmas and grandma's corsets ............

you didn't INVENT arrogance, you know ....... :lol:


I think I'm falling for you. Don't tell SPman.

[mstriumph]

flattering ......... but i don't think you could afford me :confused:

[The_Dover]

flattering ......... but i don't think you could afford me :confused:

are you charging by the Kg these days?



:spanking: "sorry, I couldn't resist" :spanking:

[mstriumph]

....... that's the story of your life, innit Dover? :whistle:

[The_Dover]

unfortunately, yes.

[SixPackBack]

She's got great legs fella's.....high qaulity:2thumbsup

[Lou Girardin]

YEAH YEAH WHATEVER , I HEAR WOMAN TALKING ABOUT MULTI TASKING BUT WHATS THE POINT OF DOING 4 THINGS AT ONCE BUT NONE OF THEM PROPERLY

I bet your wife can work out colour schemes, do the shopping list, plan tomorrows meal, all while you're shagging her.

[chanceyy]

Well

I guess today's outcome proves that unions are great for workers rights .. they may have not got the wording of a collective .. but damn well got the pay parity & increases to have everyone on the level playing field,

what a fantastic result, & this sends a positive message to those overseas major corporation who think they can come to NZ & abuse our workers ..

whoooooo hoooooo

[cowboyz]

yes,. good job done. Now they just have to get the NZ owned companies to follow suit and everyone will be better off.

[Finn]

Well

I guess today's outcome proves that unions are great for workers rights .. they may have not got the wording of a collective .. but damn well got the pay parity & increases to have everyone on the level playing field,

what a fantastic result, & this sends a positive message to those overseas major corporation who think they can come to NZ & abuse our workers ..

whoooooo hoooooo

Actually, Progressive was owned by an Australian company (FAL - Perth) before Woolworths AUS acquired them. It's not like Woolworths AUS took over and started screwing everybody, in fact given the acquisition has only just happened, they have not yet had much operational or strategic influence at all on the company.

This will not cost Progressive a cent. They will maintain profitability for their shareholders. They will look at supply arrangements, internal efficiency and then pricing. In addiiton, there are some very good distribution automation systems available that in one case reduced head count in one Aus supermarket from 1200 to 210. This may backfire on the workers.

Their main competitor in NZ (Foodstuffs - NZ owned co-op) pays their staff much less.

[scumdog]

I bet your wife can work out colour schemes, do the shopping list, plan tomorrows meal, all while you're shagging her.

Nah, I bet she's just thought of the colour-chart and pfffmph! he's done.

[Postie]

so now they are going to return, but some of them are just fucking fat and lazy and want another long weekend, they should be fired.

While most of the distribution workers locked out by supermarket giant Progressive Enterprises for four weeks returned to work today, a small group of them, still angry at their treatment, have refused to return until Monday.

[ghost]

Well

I guess today's outcome proves that unions are great for workers rights .. they may have not got the wording of a collective .. but damn well got the pay parity & increases to have everyone on the level playing field,

what a fantastic result, & this sends a positive message to those overseas major corporation who think they can come to NZ & abuse our workers ..

whoooooo hoooooo

Did they get there 4 weeks locked out paid for? if not the any increase in wages and parity need to be offset by these losses. it may take them years to catch up with the money lost in the strike and then its time to go on strike for the next round of pay rises (losses).

Bet the union officials didnt stop getting paid for this period. one of the many resonse I dislike the leeches, when its the lives of joe worker that get the pain.

[Dooly]

I've always had this thing for Laile Harre.........something about her........hmm, dunno.:crazy:

[chanceyy]

Did they get there 4 weeks locked out paid for? if not the any increase in wages and parity need to be offset by these losses. it may take them years to catch up with the money lost in the strike and then its time to go on strike for the next round of pay rises (losses).

Bet the union officials didnt stop getting paid for this period. one of the many resonse I dislike the leeches, when its the lives of joe worker that get the pain.



well last nite I was at one of the locked out workers house (doing hair for his daughters birthday as promised)

they are extremely happy with the result the support of the union, community, & other workers vindicate this was the right move for them. He has been recieving support from the union in paying the major bills & the food donations have been helping to feed the family.

Does he think he has gotten a rough deal .. NO... of course union officials are paid .. still their salary ... the huge hours & support they have provided have not been paid in money but in satisfaction. One union organiser has been with the workers Day/night put her family life on hold to be along side the workers so do not think for one minute that they are nice & warm rolling in the dough while the workers are out in the cold. As this person relayed last nite without the union support & esp the organisers it would have made the struggle harder, but once the community & other workers got behind them it made them even more resolute to see it through to the end ..

now the hard part .. healing any bad feeling ... on both sides

[chanceyy]

so now they are going to return, but some of them are just fucking fat and lazy and want another long weekend, they should be fired.

While most of the distribution workers locked out by supermarket giant Progressive Enterprises for four weeks returned to work today, a small group of them, still angry at their treatment, have refused to return until Monday.


& most will be going back over the next three days as per their current shift rotation.

a small group .. geeeeee wonder if this is one or two ... cause most are happy its over & ready to get back to work ..

[Pixie]

Well

I guess today's outcome proves that unions are great for workers rights .. they may have not got the wording of a collective .. but damn well got the pay parity & increases to have everyone on the level playing field,

what a fantastic result, & this sends a positive message to those overseas major corporation who think they can come to NZ & abuse our workers ..

whoooooo hoooooo

The company was willing to negotiate a pay increase at the beginning.
The sticking point was the union's insistence on a company wide agreement.
It wasn't about getting more pay for the workers,it was about the union putting it's own self interest and quest for more power before the workers' interests.

Laila Harre ( Wealthy Jandal heiress ) is just another defective pinko power freak

[oldrider]

The company was willing to negotiate a pay increase at the beginning.
The sticking point was the union's insistence on a company wide agreement.
It wasn't about getting more pay for the workers,it was about the union putting it's own self interest and quest for more power before the workers' interests.

Laila Harre ( Wealthy Jandal heiress ) is just another defective pinko power freak

Yes, I agree, when the dust settles and Laila moves on to newer more interesting play scenes, the workers will still be scratching their itch and wondering what in the name of hell was that?
They will suddenly realise they have gained absolutely nothing but Laila's pay and conditions never even saw a blip and "they" paid for it.
All they got was a good financial :spanking: bloody suckers! John.

[oldrider]

& most will be going back over the next three days as per their current shift rotation.

a small group .. geeeeee wonder if this is one or two ... cause most are happy its over & ready to get back to work ..

Hey there Chance, do you really believe that everyone in the workplace is "equal" and provides equal service. Equal rights, yes but equal productivity? adding equal value?
A problem I have with unions is that they preach equality to the employer but do not practice equality within their own ranks. IE how equal was Laila? did she get paid while the workers were not being paid.
That strike need not ever have happened and some of those workers will probably never recover the set backs they faced during the disruption to their income/ outgoing commitments.
Unions are a self interest group, employers value their workers more than the Unions value their members and both are dependant on them for their survival yet you automatically think the employers are the only ones that are abusing them! Have a bloody good look, who takes their money and who gives them money.
I have been there too, I have not just been an employer, I have been very involved in the union movement, even orchestrated strike action myself, it is not a winning formula for the workers, believe me! Just another point of view for you to consider. Cheers John.

[mstriumph]

Nah, I bet she's just thought of the colour-chart and pfffmph! he's done.

nahhhhhhhhhhh - chances are she didn't even have enuff time to realise the ceiling needed painting :whistle:

[chanceyy]

Hey there Chance, do you really believe that everyone in the workplace is "equal" and provides equal service. Equal rights, yes but equal productivity? adding equal value?
A problem I have with unions is that they preach equality to the employer but do not practice equality within their own ranks. IE how equal was Laila? did she get paid while the workers were not being paid.
That strike need not ever have happened and some of those workers will probably never recover the set backs they faced during the disruption to their income/ outgoing commitments.
Unions are a self interest group, employers value their workers more than the Unions value their members and both are dependant on them for their survival yet you automatically think the employers are the only ones that are abusing them! Have a bloody good look, who takes their money and who gives them money.
I have been there too, I have not just been an employer, I have been very involved in the union movement, even orchestrated strike action myself, it is not a winning formula for the workers, believe me! Just another point of view for you to consider. Cheers John.

ahhh John thats the beauty of differing opinions, I too have been on both sides, & banding together can be either good or bad for the workers, its dependant on several factors I believe ..

1/one is do the delegates have the best interests of the members or are they a self serving lot ?

2/ are they respected by both members and management ?

some delegates I have met are only out for what they can get for themselves , they do not have the respect of management which makes it harder for the members to be taken seriously.

I along with a lot of other delegates out there are not a self serving lot & we are definately respected by mangement, sure as stated before there has to be give & take on both sides, but I still support unionism I have seen the positive results when it works .. & if you have seen the other side .. & given some of your comments .. I have to wonder what was missing in the actions you were a part of ?

[chanceyy]

The company was willing to negotiate a pay increase at the beginning.
The sticking point was the union's insistence on a company wide agreement.
It wasn't about getting more pay for the workers,it was about the union putting it's own self interest and quest for more power before the workers' interests.

Laila Harre ( Wealthy Jandal heiress ) is just another defective pinko power freak

ummm no the company did not want pay parity .. all three sites would have not been on the same level playing feild .. so yes the union wanted a collective agreement but what they have negotiated is as good as .. within two yrs all sites will have pay parity, & all on the same agreement just without the wording of a collective ..