the progressive workers' strike

[WINJA]

I Feel Sorry For Those Guys , Its Hard Yakka In Those Warehouses And They Do Get Paid Poorly , I Think Progresive Should Agree To The Pay Rise And Syphon Less Profits Off Overseas, Progresive Have Monopolised The Market When They Bought Woolworths And Have Made Bigger Profits Than Ever . Maybe We Need A Law In This Country Where The Ceo Or General Managers Total Pay Package Cannot Exceed 4 Or 5 Times That Of The Lowest Paid Worker , So If The Ceo Gets A Car And Wages And Benefits Totalling $200,000 Then The Lowest Pais Employee Must Be Paid $40 To $50k As An Example, They Could Also Put In That Law That If The Company Contracts Out That Work To Get Around The Law Then A Similar Calculation Could Be Mad For Contractors , Im Sick Of Gready Corporates Getting Rich Off The Backs Of Hard Working People , I Know Some Smart Cunts Here Will Say Vote With Your Feet Or Work For Yourself But Thats Sort Of A Let Them Eat Cake Statement So Fuck Up

[Skyryder]

'Bout right Winj. Workers in this county have been shafted too long. Good to see somebody with the balls to do something about it.

Skyryder

[WINJA]

'Bout right Winj. Workers in this county have been shafted too long. Good to see somebody with the balls to do something about it.

Skyryder

THEY GOT BALLS ALRIGHT AND IM CURRENTLY VOTING WITH MY WALLET AND NOT SHOPPING AT THE LOCAL PROGRESIVE STORE

[SwanTiger]

WINJA, I like your idea relating to the capped wage for company executives based on a calculation in comparison to the lowest paid wage. However it is a pity that such a thing will never come to fruition because of the personalities currently involved in our countries core decision making.

WINJA, why do you care about the percentage of our population that you would deem hard working?

[Finn]

Okay, just as long as when the company goes under (cause it couldn't survive under this scenario), all the staff have to cough up the same percentage.

Besides, inflation would go through the roof as the consumers would have to pay for this.

[WINJA]

WINJA, I like your idea relating to the capped wage for company executives based on a calculation in comparison to the lowest paid wage. However it is a pity that such a thing will never come to fruition because of the personalities currently involved in our countries core decision making.

WINJA, why do you care about the percentage of our population that you would deem hard working?

I KNOW IM NOT IN THAT SITUATION BUT WE ALL KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS ON THE BOTTOM TIER WAGE BRACKET , ALL NZ'ERS DESERVE A FAIR WAGE DEAL

[Fub@r]

So you would probably be in the camp whereby you feel all employees should have profits divided unmongst them for their hard labour? But I bet if the company made a loss the following year you wouldn't put money in to make it up

Yes companies make profits, they also make losses, they also have shareholders that expect a return on their money. Some of those shareholders may even be some of the employees. The company has a responsibility to both parties, its a matter of finding a balance.

Also if the cost of living is outstripping peoples earnings maybe you could ask the Labour Governement for a tax cut, they are as bad as any mutinational corperate and they are ripping everyone off, but 40% of this country votes for them

[Quasievil]

I Feel Sorry For Those Guys , Its Hard Yakka In Those Warehouses And They Do Get Paid Poorly , I Think Progresive Should Agree To The Pay Rise And Syphon Less Profits Off Overseas, Progresive Have Monopolised The Market When They Bought Woolworths And Have Made Bigger Profits Than Ever . Maybe We Need A Law In This Country Where The Ceo Or General Managers Total Pay Package Cannot Exceed 4 Or 5 Times That Of The Lowest Paid Worker , So If The Ceo Gets A Car And Wages And Benefits Totalling $200,000 Then The Lowest Pais Employee Must Be Paid $40 To $50k As An Example, They Could Also Put In That Law That If The Company Contracts Out That Work To Get Around The Law Then A Similar Calculation Could Be Mad For Contractors , Im Sick Of Gready Corporates Getting Rich Off The Backs Of Hard Working People , I Know Some Smart Cunts Here Will Say Vote With Your Feet Or Work For Yourself But Thats Sort Of A Let Them Eat Cake Statement So Fuck Up

I was always told that you only get out what you put in, ie if your dont study hard at school and dont invest in your future then you get fuck all, if on the other hand you study hard at school and make something of your self you get the big bucks, sorry winja, its the law of the jungle , always will be.

[WINJA]

Okay, just as long as when the company goes under (cause it couldn't survive under this scenario), all the staff have to cough up the same percentage.

Besides, inflation would go through the roof as the consumers would have to pay for this.

YOU GET THE BASICS OF THIS IDEA , I DONT HAVE ALL THE DEATILS WORKED OUT , IM NOT AN ACCOUNTANT, I THINK ITS JAPAN THAT HAS A LOSELY BASED SAME IDEA AND THEIR ECONOMY SEEMS TO BE DOING OK , MAYBE ITS CAUSE THE MORE YOU GOT IN YOUR POCKET THE MORE YOU SPEND

[Goblin]

I was always told that you only get out what you put in, ie if your dont study hard at school and dont invest in your future then you get fuck all, if on the other hand you study hard at school and make something of your self you get the big bucks, sorry winja, its the law of the jungle , always will be.
If that's the case then why are there so many university educated people working in gas stations & at supermarkets? Or worse, fucking off overseas! Why is it that some folk who never even got school C are in high paid managment jobs? It's not what you know, it's whose arse you lick!

[SwanTiger]

I was always told that you only get out what you put in, ie if your dont study hard at school and dont invest in your future then you get fuck all, if on the other hand you study hard at school and make something of your self you get the big bucks, sorry winja, its the law of the jungle , always will be.
I partly agree with the point you are trying to convey although using education as part of your analogy is falsely brass or perhaps ignorant of reality.

The real issue here, from my perspective, is the level of commitment these employee's offer the employer and how that commitment is rewarded. I use to work for a company that has an extremely high staff turnover rate and this was directly due to the lack of humanity shown by management. After my experience as an employee of said company I can fully appreciate the concerns of those on strike.

Although to be honest I don't really give a shit as this is a matter of life and human complexities. Nothing really changes. I'm going to enjoy it while I'm still alive. I might even go and find something more constructive to do with my time, however for now I'll continue to post shit on Kiwi Biker.

Thank you.

[Quasievil]

If that's the case then why are there so many university educated people working in gas stations & at supermarkets? Why is it that some folk who never even got school C are in high paid managment jobs? It's not what you know, it's who you brown-tounge!

True, however how long are they in gas stations for, and if they give up they are screwed to.
But Im in the other camp personally, didnt do SC but I had a brain and worked hard, no brown nosing no parents just me
I do agree with WINJAS idea though, just that its against the way of the world in most cases, thats unfortunate yes but its economic reality

[WINJA]

So you would probably be in the camp whereby you feel all employees should have profits divided unmongst them for their hard labour? But I bet if the company made a loss the following year you wouldn't put money in to make it up

Yes companies make profits, they also make losses, they also have shareholders that expect a return on their money. Some of those shareholders may even be some of the employees. The company has a responsibility to both parties, its a matter of finding a balance.

Also if the cost of living is outstripping peoples earnings maybe you could ask the Labour Governement for a tax cut, they are as bad as any mutinational corperate and they are ripping everyone off, but 40% of this country votes for them

I KNOW THE GAP IS TO BIG WHEN THE GUY STACKING SHELVES HAS TO CHOOSE BETWEEN GETTING HIMSELF CHECKED OUT AT THE DOCTORS OR GETTING NEW SHOES FOR HIS DAUGHTER MEANWHILE THE CEO OF THE COMPANY HE WORKS FOR HAS TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THE POWER BOAT OR SAILBOAT HE OWNS TO TAKE OUT THIS 3DAY WEEKEND HES TREATING HIMSELF TO, MEANWHILE HIS SHELF STACKER HAS DECIDED TO WORK 7 DAYS THIS WEEK INSTEAD OF 6 CAUSE HIS DAUGHTER REALLY NEEDS THOSE SHOES.

ANY WHY THE FUCK DO FAILED CEO'S GET GOLDEN HANDSHAKES YET THE WORKERS THEY LAID OFF GET FUCK ALL.
AND WHY DID THE HAWKINS GUY THAT BUILT THE HILTON GET TO KEEP HIS $1,000,000 MANSION MEANWHILE THE PLASTERERS FROM WHANGAREI HE HIRED LOST THERE HOMES CAUSE HE DIDNT PAY THEM AND THEY DIDNT PAY THEIR MORTGAGE AND TO MAKE IT WORSE THEIR TOOLS WERE LOCKED IN THE CLOSED SITE WHICH WAS UNDER GUARD

[Quasievil]

I use to work for a company that has an extremely high staff turnover rate and this was directly due to the lack of humanity shown by management. After my experience as an employee of said company I can fully appreciate the concerns of those on strike.



Same I worked for a company that had over 100% once, but no doubt like you I left, I feel sorry for the underdog in most situations, no one wants these situations. I would probably pay extra $ to have better wages for all NZrs, but how would that be administered?

[Finn]

Academic education is not the answer. I've hired people with all sorts of letters after their name and they have been the worst employees ever. I go for attitude, experience and communication skills. If you ain't hungry and self motivated, no amount of education will help you.

The lowest paid person in my company gets $15 an hour plus some perks. The maximum paid person gets over $200k PA. I have more problems with the higher paid people than the rest. I make sure the lower paid people are respected and if anyone in the Co looks down on them, they'll be cleaning the toilet for a month. I do my best to look after these people and give them pizza Friday's and nights out when productivity is up. I also know all of their names and walk through daily talking to them. I'd prefer to pay the lower paid people more but there just isn't the money at the moment and I really want that new Ferarri.

Meanwhile our customers screw us for lower prices, our suppliers screw us for more money and the Government keeps interfering.

It's tough out there. Balance is what is needed.

[Fub@r]

You have to blame the law makers that allow shelf companies, trusts etc to protect their assets. I have clients that make a new company for every development they enter in to limit liability if anything goes wrong it only takes out the shelf company. So effectively you loose a branch but the tree remains strong so to speak.

Its no different in some respects to what a normal wage earner like my self would do when faced with risk. You will look for any way to minimise that risk to you and your assets would you not?

I agree with you people like Teresa Gatting for example earning millions a year, the company making a billion a year profit whilst the country gets shafted by them, it is pretty disgusting, but if you were the person in Teresa's position would you offer to take a pay cut down to 200k a year?

Besides running a big mutinational company or a country for that matter you are going to end up with a monkey if your paying 200k a year.............just look at the monkeys we have in the Beehive and they are earning 140k to 300k

[Hitcher]

The first rule of business is to stay in business. What may or may not be "fair" rates of pay is a matter of time and place. Obviously these allegedly "exploitive" employers have no difficulty attracting people prepared to work for the terms and conditions they offer. I think it's called "market forces". If you don't think they're paid enough, take up a collection or tip them. Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer to spend as little on my groceries as I possibly can.

If the objective here is an economic transformation where average wages rise, then we have to grow the whole economy, rather than apply statutory imposts like minimum wage rates, youth rates, pay "equity" (shudders visibly), not-working benefits and the like.

[SwanTiger]

Same I worked for a company that had over 100% once, but no doubt like you I left, I feel sorry for the underdog in most situations, no one wants these situations. I would probably pay extra $ to have better wages for all NZrs, but how would that be administered?
Yes, I did leave that particular company, I think that the owner was close to crying when I handed him my resignation.

I don't believe better wages will solve the problem.

It is at heart a style of management that rots away at our society and makes the jump from poor to rich even more of an impossibility.

Then again, this is where I partially agree with your previous post.

"It's the way of the jungle".

[Skyryder]

Whenever I hear how tuff it is at the top...........I think of the Wine Box affair.

It's pretty tuff at the bottom too. These guys don't have the fancy lawyers, accountants and share/bonus schemes. All they have is a union organiser to go in and bat for them. The rights and wrongs of striking is only relevent to the side of the fence you happen to be on.

Skyryder

[Finn]

Oh yeah, one last point. Last year my Company paid over $1,000,000 tax (GST, PAYE, ACC, FBT & Provisional tax). While this was a lot less than I should have paid (thanks to my accountant), half of that money would be better off in my staffs pocket than the government throwing it down the shitter.

[Street Gerbil]

Maybe We Need A Law In This Country Where The Ceo Or General Managers Total Pay Package Cannot Exceed 4 Or 5 Times That Of The Lowest Paid Worker
Sorry, WINJA, but that's exactly the way it was in USSR. Didn't work out quite well, I am afraid.

[SwanTiger]

Whenever I hear how tuff it is at the top...........I think of the Wine Box affair.

It's pretty tuff at the bottom too. These guys don't have the fancy lawyers, accountants and share/bonus schemes. All they have is a union organiser to go in and bat for them. The rights and wrongs of striking is only relevent to the side of the fence you happen to be on.

Skyryder
It isn't that hard to quit and find another job.

As an example, I worked for one company at $10 an hour before Tax, never took a holiday or missed a single shift, never asked for a pay rise and worked a lot of over time and always did my best. The boss knew it. I moved and needed more money so I asked for a 50c pay rise. He said that the company didn't have enough. So I quit. One week later and he offered me $12 before Tax.

However the problem is that some people aren't in a situation to risk their only income to get a little pay rise of which they probably deserve.

So I do wonder, if people are prepared to risk a strike, why aren't they prepared to risk moving on to a new opportunity?

[Goblin]

True, however how long are they in gas stations for, and if they give up they are screwed to.

It doesn't matter how long they work there...its the fact they cant get work in their chosen proffession because they're 'over qualified' & management dont want to pay them what they're worth cos they're all too fuckin greedy.

Recently I have seen a good friend get absolutely shafted by winz and the cleaning contractors he was MADE to work for. The cleaning co. paid him, on average, 10-15 hours a fortnight less than the hours he actually did. He wouldn't get a payslip for 6 weeks at a time so he couldn't even balance his chequebook. When he finally did get a payslip he went to management to ask where all his other hours went, only to get given the run-around. They would just pass the buck & send him around in circles. They have been doing this to all their staff for years & years! The owner of the cleaning co has his fingers in many pies & knows people in very high place so is untouchable! No wonder the greedy cunts are getting richer by the day & the ones who do the actual work are living on next to nothing! And because he wasnt getting regular payslips to give to winz, they over paid him & now he owes winz. Now this mate wrote out a business plan for a guided tour business & the winz consultant/broker reckoned it was the best biz plan she had even seen in that office. The stuck-up bitch of a manager at winz told the consultant that my mate was too scruffy & she doesnt like bikes so he was declined a grant to start his own bussiness! It was as though she was dishing the money out of her own pocket.
No wonder people go postal!

[Waylander]

So I do wonder, if people are prepared to risk a strike, why aren't they prepared to risk moving on to a new opportunity?
Because they don't have any skills (note I say skills rather than education) that employers would look for.

Only reason I have my current job is because I've been using wood working tools for most of my life. If it were not for that I'de be stocking shelfs at a grocery store or some other meaningless job that I couldn't take any pride in.

[SwanTiger]

Just to elaborate on the "new opportunity" suggestion.

Perhaps the problem is partly or primarily due to the mentality of the general New Zealand workforce? There is a lot of "I work hard, I need more cheese, but there isn't any, so I'm going to protest as I want more cheese.".

I read this great book called "Who moved my cheese?" the story is short, simple and sweet.

Maybe these strikers are the subject of this story, they're just complaining that their cheese has gone missing or that there isn't enough cheese to go around? While the smarter ones go out and find new plentiful sources of cheese.

[Quasievil]

It doesn't matter how long they work there...its the fact they cant get work in their chosen proffession because they're 'over qualified' & management dont want to pay them what they're worth cos they're all too fuckin greedy.


I guess some generalisations going on but the generalisations are being take as gospel.
Just a side note , just because you have a dregree or whatever, it doesnt actually mean you are immediately employable in your chosen field, example I have met some graduates who might be academic but are thick as hell I have also met some graduates who have no people skills and in the real world struggle.
So it isnt always education, its attitude and the willingness to learn and to be enthusiastic about your job, that to me is worth alot

[McJim]

Maybe these strikers are the subject of this story, they're just complaining that their cheese has gone missing or that there isn't enough cheese to go around? While the smarter ones go out and find new plentiful sources of cheese.

Yup - the cheese is all in London - Scotland is the same as NZ - shit awful wages. I moved to London and within 2 years was earning triple what I was in Scotland. House prices are only 1 and a half times those in Scotland (and incidentally the housing market here is waaaaay over inflated $500,000 gets you about $190,000 worth of house and land - the estate agents are luvvin' it!)

It's not the cost of food and amenities that's high or that salaries are low it's that the average house is 8 to 9 times the average salary instead of 4 or 5 times average salary which is the norm in other civilised countries.

Hence these people can't live on what they earn. It's impossible. And there are no alternatives for them.

Q. What do PhD graduates in Auckland Say?
A. "Do you want fries with your order sir?"

[WINJA]

It isn't that hard to quit and find another job.

As an example, I worked for one company at $10 an hour before Tax, never took a holiday or missed a single shift, never asked for a pay rise and worked a lot of over time and always did my best. The boss knew it. I moved and needed more money so I asked for a 50c pay rise. He said that the company didn't have enough. So I quit. One week later and he offered me $12 before Tax.

However the problem is that some people aren't in a situation to risk their only income to get a little pay rise of which they probably deserve.

So I do wonder, if people are prepared to risk a strike, why aren't they prepared to risk moving on to a new opportunity?

SO HE DID HAVE ENOUGH MONEY AND WAS JUST TRYING IT ON , WHAT A CUNT, THESE PROGRESIVE PEOPLE ARE UP AGAINST THERE WILL BE SOME FUCKEN BITCH WITH THICK RED FRAMED THICK GLASSES AND A MANS HAIR CUT INVENTING NEW WAYS TO WORK WITH THE CEO TO FUCK THESE WORKERS OVER , DO YOU REALLY THINK YOUR GROCERY BILLS WILL GO UP ANYMORE THEY WONT BECAUSE PROGRESIVE HAVE TO PRICE ACCORDING TO FOODSTUFFS PRICE IT JUST MEANS PROGREIVES ALREADY HUGE PROFIT IS JUST A BIT SMALLER , DONT FORGET THAT PROGRESIVE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BUY WOOLWORTHS THE COMERCE SHOULD HAVE STEPED IN TO STOP THE SALE AS PROGRESIVE HAVE NOW MONOPOLISED THE MARKET , FOODTOWN AND WOOLWORTHS WERE ALWAYS FIERCE COMPETITORS ECONOMY OF SCALE SAYS PRICES SHOULDA GONE DOWN BUT CORPORATE GREAD SAYS OTHERWISE

[WINJA]

customerinfo@progressive.co.nz

FEEL FREE TO HELP THESE WORKERS OUT BY SENDING AN EMAIL TO THESE CUNTS AT PROGRESIVE

[MattRSK]

Haha, don't know what they are complaining about. I work my arse off all day everyday and get less than minimum wage. I'm 19.

[The_Dover]

Fuck them, I should be paid more.

[Finn]

Fuck them, I should be paid more.

Turn more tricks then

[jrandom]

The 'way of the jungle' gives you Dombey & Son, child labour, and an overly-polarised division of wealth. Objective morality (as defined by me) demands that society force a certain amount of redistribution for the greater good. A minimal amount of redistribution, of course; preferably one that keeps the wolves and hoodie-wearing darkies from my door while still leaving me a decent chunk of my vastly over-inflated salary, bonus and stock options package.

As you would expect, I have no idea what any of that has to do with the Progressive strike, but all the union execs I've met (I've only ever dealt with the EPMU, but they're probably fairly representative) are disillusioned, self-interested cynics, who aren't half as smart as they think they'd like to be. I bet those poor shelf-stackers are getting screwed over from more than one direction.

It's all rather sad, really. Oh, the humanity.

I'm going to drink some more Laphroaig now to cheer myself up. The world's such an awful place.

[Swoop]

Academic education is not the answer. I've hired people with all sorts of letters after their name and they have been the worst employees ever.

Isn't that the fucken truth!!!
Who would/could honestly hold their hand up if asked whether they would have some university educated and qualified dickwad with half the alphabet after their name, work on their bike OR have someone who has NO qualifications but the same amount of years of experience that "qualified boy" spent at university.
A no brainer, but this is what our society is promoting.

The progressive distributors have my support. Woolworths, countdown and foodtown have been charging disgusting prices on their goods for long enough. Unfortunately there are still folks who do not compare the prices with other suppliers and believe the crap that they are being given the "best deal" when all they are doing is helping another overseas company get rich.

[Magua]

Well, it should be a slow night at work tommorow with nothing to put on the shelves. :mellow:

[Finn]

Their stock situation is not as bad as the news made out. They selected a couple of products. Progressive has 2 distribution models. Suppliers send products to Progressive distribution centres (where the strikes are) or suppliers deliver direct to store. Progressive has simply asked suppliers to deliver direct to store. No problem.

If it works well, they may close their distribution centres down but I doubt it.

[Ixion]

It is a bit trickier than that. The "direct" model is usually only used for fresh produce etc. The distribution centres receive large shipments from each supplier (ie a truck load), then split those into small shipments to each store, and combine those . IE the distribution centre gets lots of trucks, one (or more) from each supplier. Each store gets only one truck , containing a variety of goods.(Plus the fresh stuff on the direct model)

Now, if Progressive use the direct model to get round the strike (a) they're out on a limb, because to grind down the price they pay suppliers, they've extensively leveraged the "only one delivery point" benefit to the supplier. If Progressive now want Supplier X to make several hundred deliveries (and small ones) instead of one big one, Supplier X is going to take the opportunity to demand a rethink on that pricing (fair enough, hundreds of small deliveries is much more expensive than one big one). and (b) most of the stores are not set up to handle such a large volume of trucks. They don't have the space or the staff, that's all at the distribution centre.

The old military problem. Concentrate your forces, and you provide a single target for the enemy to take out.

EDIT. A lot of Progressives suppliers are sniggering happily. Very privately of course. But anything they do to help Progressive out will come at a price, depend on it. Progressive don't have too many friends, and from the suppliers point of view, it's no big deal if Progressive have stock problems, customers will just buy the suppliers product from a competing supermarket.Supplier doesn't lose any sales. Incidentally Progressive will lose out again down the line, because that pricing of theirs also includes heavy rebate payments which depend on Progressive meeting purchasing budgets.

[Finn]

You're right but they're also using a logistics company that has warehousing facilities. Sneaky huh?

[Squiggles]

i got shafted by progressive for 3 years (until early this year)... $7.50 an hr i think i started on (before tax) that gives ya what, $6 afterwards..... least the pricks could've done is discounted my lunch by a couple of bucks instead of a measely 5%.... (2x 10hr shifts = me needing at least 2 hour's works' worth of food...) ah well, those were the days.... no wait, they werent that long ago! :doh: now i tutor these rich executives kids for $25-30 an hr... sort've but doesnt really make up for the 3 years of shafting. :(

[Squiggles]

I KNOW THE GAP IS TO BIG WHEN THE GUY STACKING SHELVES HAS TO CHOOSE BETWEEN GETTING HIMSELF CHECKED OUT AT THE DOCTORS OR GETTING NEW SHOES FOR HIS DAUGHTER MEANWHILE THE CEO OF THE COMPANY HE WORKS FOR HAS TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THE POWER BOAT OR SAILBOAT HE OWNS TO TAKE OUT THIS 3DAY WEEKEND HES TREATING HIMSELF TO, MEANWHILE HIS SHELF STACKER HAS DECIDED TO WORK 7 DAYS THIS WEEK INSTEAD OF 6 CAUSE HIS DAUGHTER REALLY NEEDS THOSE SHOES.

That one hit a soft-spot with me :crybaby: worked with a guy who was like that.

[ZeroIndex]

very nicely written WINJA..

[WINJA]

You're right but they're also using a logistics company that has warehousing facilities. Sneaky huh?

THAT LOGISTICS COMPANY WILL WANT A PROFIT AS WELL , PROGRESIVES MDC IN FAVONA RD HAS BEEN THERE FOR 30 YEARS FOR A REASON , ITS THE CHEAPEST WAY TO DISTRIBUTE FOOD

[Edbear]

Their stock situation is not as bad as the news made out.



What!? Media spin...? Surely not!:gob:

[Lou Girardin]

Okay, just as long as when the company goes under (cause it couldn't survive under this scenario), all the staff have to cough up the same percentage.

Besides, inflation would go through the roof as the consumers would have to pay for this.

THe NZ owners thought they could survive when they agreed to it. But the new Aussie owners reneged.

But whoever the owners are, the duopolistic supermarket business in NZ is long overdue for a shake up. They've been screwing their suppliers for years, so it's good to see the bottom of the food chain wanting a share of the cake.
It's also interesting to hear justifications for exorbitant CEO salaries in NZ. If they did need to match international pay rates, why aren't we seeing more poached overseas?
Possibly because they're even more useless than overseas CEO's.

[Drunken Monkey]

i got shafted by progressive for 3 years (until early this year)... $7.50 an hr i think i started on (before tax) ....

Grow up. You weren't shafted at all, you got market rates. FFS how old were you when you worked there? (Oh I see, D.O.B. 20/03/1988 according to your profile - you're still a kid) You know you could've done worse as a student packing groceries at a corner vege shop. You have to start somewhere, hell I started at a supermarket for $6/hr BEFORE tax, but you don't hear me jumping up and down claiming I was shafted by Woolies.

Of course, I wasn't dumb enough to stick around the Deli for 3 years - maybe you shafted yourself? At least you've moved on now. That was lesson 1: to increase your earnings quickly, you have to skill up and move to another employer. Staying in one place can work, it just works slower. And just to show how helpful I'm going to be => Free lesson number 2: Just because your earnings are going to steadily increase over the next few years, don't expect it's going to happen for the rest of your working life. Salaries & wages are just like any other supplies, they are governed by market force and rise and fall accordingly.

On the progressive front, my friend's fiancee works in distribution management, He came in a short while ago; they acknowledge some of the contracts were unfair and have been re-negotiating them, allowing suppliers to make shorter ones than they were locked into in the past. I'm sure they're not perfect, but they aren't the complete ogres some people beleive they are.

[Paul in NZ]

It is a bit trickier than that. The "direct" model is usually only used for fresh produce etc. The distribution centres receive large shipments from each supplier (ie a truck load), then split those into small shipments to each store, and combine those . IE the distribution centre gets lots of trucks, one (or more) from each supplier. Each store gets only one truck , containing a variety of goods.(Plus the fresh stuff on the direct model)

Now, if Progressive use the direct model to get round the strike (a) they're out on a limb, because to grind down the price they pay suppliers, they've extensively leveraged the "only one delivery point" benefit to the supplier. If Progressive now want Supplier X to make several hundred deliveries (and small ones) instead of one big one, Supplier X is going to take the opportunity to demand a rethink on that pricing (fair enough, hundreds of small deliveries is much more expensive than one big one). and (b) most of the stores are not set up to handle such a large volume of trucks. They don't have the space or the staff, that's all at the distribution centre.

The old military problem. Concentrate your forces, and you provide a single target for the enemy to take out.

EDIT. A lot of Progressives suppliers are sniggering happily. Very privately of course. But anything they do to help Progressive out will come at a price, depend on it. Progressive don't have too many friends, and from the suppliers point of view, it's no big deal if Progressive have stock problems, customers will just buy the suppliers product from a competing supermarket.Supplier doesn't lose any sales. Incidentally Progressive will lose out again down the line, because that pricing of theirs also includes heavy rebate payments which depend on Progressive meeting purchasing budgets.

Well said that man!!

The introduction of the distribution centres have affected a lot more than just the delivieries. Hundreds of mostly part time workers (usually women with school age children) known as 'Merchandisers' are under threat as well. While in some cases this is not a big deal in many cases, these people are earning the extra cash familes need to survive. I know a lot of them have been worried about their future.

The grocery trade is a viscious one. Even nice people become horrible in it just to survive as it's all about high turn over and razor thin margins - volume is king and suppliers must be screwed at every opportunity.

It's a shitty business but one with massive profits for some and minimum wage for most.

[jrandom]

The grocery trade is a viscious one...

'Viscious'.

I like that word.

It's sort of halfway between 'vicious' and 'viscous'; an implication of thick, sticky, and nasty. Very apropos.

[Brian d marge]

The thing that really bugs me , is What has been said before, market forces salaries paid to CEOs

I mean simply put if the company earns 10 dollars and you pay 2 dollars to the ceo ,,you have only 8 to pay everything else.

Doesn matter how its worded, wether they call it Shares , perks ....coffee

I am Sure that a off the floor 3 dollars an hour worker could do the Same job as the CEO , I mean the average mother with 2 kids does it every day ..and for a whole lot less!!!

Other than that, a company does need to make a profit , no profit , and you wont be in business for long , period . We all want something for nothing ,,,but its just not the case,

and ALL full time wages , must be of a level to provide the status quo ,,,ie mum dad and kids . ie a LOW wage economy is great for the books, and makes NZ look good ,,( so that overseas investors want to give us money aparently ??~)

But its crap to live in .... My salary /wage is on the low side of average ..but I can afford to do the thing I like ...( but then srfing the internet for P#rn is very expensive ..


Name and address withheld

[The_Dover]

Fucking overpaid useless cunts like Theresa Gattung deserve millions a year because of "market forces".

Fuck off, how hard is it to run a monopoly? How many major service providers in NZ are basically monopolies? Let's see, Telecunt, the supermarkets, the bus companies, railways and airlines, power companies may as well be, watercare.

There is no real competition in the marketplace so how the fuck can they fail other than thru sheer incompetence?

[TLDV8]

I Feel Sorry For Those Guys , Its Hard Yakka In Those Warehouses And They Do Get Paid Poorly

You forgot to mention how a lot make up for it in the form of what goes out the gate...The hard yakka it seems is loading the car...but you won't be hearing about the latest bust via the Media.

[Beemer]

In my first job I was getting (I had to work it out on my weekly wage - that I could remember as I thought it was heaps!) $2.70 an hour. Woo hoo!

I worked in a call centre a few years ago and got the princely sum of $11.00 an hour before tax, for a 40 hour week with regular shiftwork and you had to work every third Saturday. So it's not just the ones who work in supermarkets who get poorly paid. At least (by the sound of it) they get a discount, however small, on their purchases - at the power company we got nothing.

I'm self-employed now so can't moan about my hourly rate because I set it most times, but if I don't work, I don't get paid.

[Ixion]

Overpaid young whippersnapper.

My first job (not full time thank heavens) was paid at 2/6d per hour. that's 25cents per hour, £5/0/0 per week ($10 for you young 'uns) . Slave labout, that's what it was.

Just for comparison, petrol was 3/4d per gallon , so I had to work 1.33 hours (pre tax) to buy a gallon (4.5 litres)

Now petrol is $1.61 per litre = $7.25 per gallon. So 1.33 hours to pay for the gallon would equate to a wage of $5.45 an hour. Pre tax.

So maybe you aren't so hard done by nowdays after all , eh?

[Drunken Monkey]

... I am Sure that a off the floor 3 dollars an hour worker could do the Same job as the CEO , ...

Yeah, that's right. Everyone is CEO material. Whether they're artistic, technical, a ball-buster, a softy, whether they can view a business holistically or not, whatever. The world is wrong, skills don't count for anything. In fact fuckit, why don't we just total up ALL the GP earned by everyone, whether they're an incompetant twerp, a highly motivated hard worker or whatever, then divide it equally amongst all citizens. I mean, c'mon, no-one actually deserves more money than the next guy! You know, that'll be great... (where are those sarcastic html tags when you want them?)

[Lou Girardin]

Yeah, that's right. Everyone is CEO material. Whether they're artistic, technical, a ball-buster, a softy, whether they can view a business holistically or not, whatever. The world is wrong, skills don't count for anything. In fact fuckit, why don't we just total up ALL the GP earned by everyone, whether they're an incompetant twerp, a highly motivated hard worker or whatever, then divide it equally amongst all citizens. I mean, c'mon, no-one actually deserves more money than the next guy! You know, that'll be great... (where are those sarcastic html tags when you want them?)

Two words to demolish your entire point - Theresa Gattung.

[Hitcher]

Reminds me a bit of Monty Python's Four Yorkshiremen sketch...

[Drunken Monkey]

Two words to demolish your entire point - Theresa Gattung.


On the contrary, I think that's precisely what happens when you put a $3/hr worker in that kind of position. Management is a difficult job, even experienced managers don't necessarily do good jobs. This is not the same as saying some random git will do better - I think you'll find most will be in over their heads.

[WINJA]

You forgot to mention how a lot make up for it in the form of what goes out the gate...The hard yakka it seems is loading the car...but you won't be hearing about the latest bust via the Media.

I WORKED AT FAVONA ROAD AS A CONTRACTOR , YOUVE GOT TO BE FUCKEN KIDDING , CARS ARE SEARCHED AND IF YOU GET CAUGHT THEY WILL CALL THE POLICE , IN THE 3 YEARS I WORKED ON THEIR BUILDINGS THEFT OF PRODUCT WAS NOT A PROBLEM, TLDV8 YOUR STATEMENT IS CLEARLY BASED ON IGNORANCE

[jrandom]

Management is a difficult job...

Oh, arr, for sure.

Your average chap or chapette, even if experienced, qualified and not at all lazy or stupid, will simply not take the conceptual leap of arriving at work each day and viewing their responsibility as delivering profit to shareholders. Which is not as easy as it sounds, most of the time.

They see their responsibility, simply, as doing whatever they're told to. The vast majority of human beans appear to prefer thinking that way.

Successfully understanding and directing the operation of a bunch of people and resources, as a whole, with the overall goal of growing, thriving and pulling cash out of the rest of the economy for the operation's own benefit, requires a certain mindset, and a certain sort of viciously (viscously?) predatory intelligence, combined with a keen understanding of what's going on in the heads of everyone around you, the state of which heads are (usually) indispensable to whatever has to happen in service of said overall goal.

Jeez, what an unwieldy sentence that was.

Anyway, point is, most people can't 'manage' for shit; it takes rare ability and dedication to keep a team of other people happy and provide them with a common focus and the tools they need to achieve common goals. That ability, concentrated in a single intellect, is the linchpin upon which every successful enterprise turns.

And that is why CEO positions are paid what they're paid.

[SPman]

Your average chap or chapette, even if experienced, qualified and not at all lazy or stupid, will simply not take the conceptual leap.....................e their responsibility, simply, as doing whatever they're told to. The vast majority of human beans appear to prefer thinking that way.

I just come to work to use the broadband connection.........

[WINJA]

Thank you for your email, and we are disappointed you feel they way you
do
regarding our position in respect the current strike action from
members of
union's involved in our 3 grocery distribution centres.

I would however like to briefly outline the reasons for our actions to
date,
so at the very least you are aware of issues involved.

Firstly the unions are demanding what is in an effect a 30 percent
employment cost increase to Progressive, and that is a fact.

No business including ours can meet what we regard as such an
unreasonable
and unrealistic union demand. To do so would result in higher food
prices in
the supermarket and threaten the livelihoods of all our staff, our
suppliers
and our very business.

At Progressive, we remain committed to delivering the lowest prices
possible. This means we pay particular attention to ALL costs within
our
business to ensure we remain competitive.

It is also important to remember that essentially our 18,000-plus
staff, 2.5
million shoppers per week and our suppliers are being held hostage by
the
striking union members who represent less than three per cent of our
workforce.

Despite this action our supermarkets remain open and we will endeavor
to
provide the very best service we can.

I hope you understand that we take these actions with the best
interests in
mind of our customers, staff and the business.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

THE ABOVE WAS PROGRESIVES RESPONSE TO THE EMAIL I SENT THEM , I SORTA SEE THEIR SIDE BUT I KNOW THEY HAVE A VERY BIG PROPAGANDA MACHINE THAT TALKS A LOT OF SHIT, GOOD ON THEM THO FOR AT LEAST REPLYING TO MY EMAIL

[TLDV8]

I WORKED AT FAVONA ROAD AS A CONTRACTOR , YOUVE GOT TO BE FUCKEN KIDDING , CARS ARE SEARCHED AND IF YOU GET CAUGHT THEY WILL CALL THE POLICE , IN THE 3 YEARS I WORKED ON THEIR BUILDINGS THEFT OF PRODUCT WAS NOT A PROBLEM, TLDV8 YOUR STATEMENT IS CLEARLY BASED ON IGNORANCE

You better stick to your shelf stacking job at Woolworths......My statement is based on Fact.

[WINJA]

You better stick to your shelf stacking job at Woolworths......My statement is based on Fact.

SHELF STACKER ? YOU WISH ,YOUR THAT WELDING CHIMP ARENT YOU, ID MAKE FAR MORE MONEY THAN YOU SO DONT HAVE A DIG AT MY OCCUPATION

[poorbastard]

Shit got paid more at Woolworths then im getting bloody paid now. At least they don't pay minimum wage there. Try working for minimum now that sux.

[Ixion]

Cool it guys, we've already got more warfare erupting round this place than the Middle East. Don't want any more. Agree to differ , please.

[98tls]

SHELF STACKER ? YOU WISH ,YOUR THAT WELDING CHIMP ARENT YOU, ID MAKE FAR MORE MONEY THAN YOU SO DONT HAVE A DIG AT MY OCCUPATION Winja in my very humble opinion you just said a very stupid thing indeed...TLDV8 would be one of the cleverest buggers i know...and would be very well paid for his skills im bettin....

[TLDV8]

Thank's Mike :niceone: ....... but i don't mind being a chimp welder :laugh: over 30 years now and still dig it.:Punk:

It doesn't matter what you do as long as it seems worthwhile and you enjoy it...The reality these days is a mortgage ,raising kids,saving for retirement is based on the colour of money.

[scumdog]

I Feel Sorry For Those Guys , Its Hard Yakka In Those Warehouses And They Do Get Paid Poorly , I Think Progresive Should Agree To The Pay Rise And Syphon Less Profits Off Overseas, Progresive Have Monopolised The Market When They Bought Woolworths And Have Made Bigger Profits Than Ever . Maybe We Need A Law In This Country Where The Ceo Or General Managers Total Pay Package Cannot Exceed 4 Or 5 Times That Of The Lowest Paid Worker , So If The Ceo Gets A Car And Wages And Benefits Totalling $200,000 Then The Lowest Pais Employee Must Be Paid $40 To $50k As An Example, They Could Also Put In That Law That If The Company Contracts Out That Work To Get Around The Law Then A Similar Calculation Could Be Mad For Contractors , Im Sick Of Gready Corporates Getting Rich Off The Backs Of Hard Working People , I Know Some Smart Cunts Here Will Say Vote With Your Feet Or Work For Yourself But Thats Sort Of A Let Them Eat Cake Statement So Fuck Up


Ferk, what a crock of shit!!!!!!

After 26+ years in the freezing industry I realised that crap like the above did not pay my wages.

I find it a lark to put up with the cop-slagging comments on KB compared to my freezing worker wages and the tribulations I got from others back then.

Give me all the shit you want but remember - it's you suckers that pay my wages eh!!!

Being a cop is EEEAAASY for the effort.

(but the stress and potential for violence is another matter)

[Brian d marge]

Just stumbled upon a secret board meeting of progressive ..

clic here (http://www.fat-pie.com/menfromupthestairs.htm) its a david firth flash, so those of a sensitive nature try not to clic any further , this flash is safe though

Stephen

I still stand by the what I said about the pay , but yes a GOOD manager is worth his wieght, you DO NEED a lot of skills to be an effective manager , * you Just dont need an out of proportion pay packet thats all !

[terbang]

Ferk, what a crock of shit!!!!!!

After 26+ years in the freezing industry I realised that crap like the above did not pay my wages.

I find it a lark to put up with the cop-slagging comments on KB compared to my freezing worker wages and the tribulations I got from others back then.

Give me all the shit you want but remember - it's you suckers that pay my wages eh!!!

Being a cop is EEEAAASY for the effort.

(but the stress and potential for violence is another matter)


Couple of intetesting points there scummy. Compared to some of the Jobs I've done (breaking rocks and cutting firewood) doing what I do now seems like easy money and I don't whinge too much about it. In fact my job is also my hobby or passion. I left school at 15 and had to work bloody hard to achieve what I wanted. Nobody is stuck anywhere forever and we do have the ability to talk with our feet (if you dont like yer boss go elsewhere).
Finn has a good point about balance, however I do feel that, compared to say Australia, kiwi workers are not getting such a good deal. Whilst there are some good emplyers out there (looks like finn may be) there are also some right bigots. Progressive should at least be entering into some sort of meaningful negotiation with their workers.

[KLOWN]

I can't be bothered reading all the posts but i worked in a factory for two years and was paid almost $20 an hour. There were lots of people there who earned more than me and all they could do was winge about how little they were paid. The money was more than what we should have been getting for the job we were doing. No one is happy with what they are getting no matter what. The better you get it the more that you want. But fuck it, I decided to quit and go to uni so I could get a degree and make something of my life. I believe that the fat cats deserve to get paid what they are getting cause if they fuck up they could go to jail and destroy thier lives they have a lot more pressure that the average working joe etc. I realise that this is not the case for eveyone but you have to look at the majority of examples not the select few that work outside the norm

[KLOWN]

oh yeah, I think golden hand shakes are bull shit !

[smokeyging]

volume is king and suppliers must be screwed at every opportunity.

It's a shitty business but one with massive profits for some and minimum wage for most.


This is the problem with the world today, as one business friend once said: 'If we don't take the massive profits, some other bugger will'.....

[dhunt]

One thing that hasn't really got mentioned here is If they agree to the pay rises it pretty obvious what's going to happen. Either the consumer pay's the difference or more than likely they will have to sack a good portion of the workers.

I think a lot of Kiwi's are becoming too greedy and thinking they deserve more cause they are so "good" ... Not many people are thankful for what they do have but always want more.

For example there was on the TV awhile ago about kids <18 wanting to be paided the same as 18+. I don't think they should be. If they were payed the same and you were given an 18+ worker and 15 y.o who would you hire if you had to pay them the same.

Where I grew up a good wage was about $2-3 a day. Which if you were lucky covered your food and clothing needs for the day. With nothing left over for saving for a rainy day or any treats. If you thought you deserved more money and wouldn't work for such a "low" amount you would never have any work.

What I think will happen in NZ is that more kiwi's will be out of jobs because "low" pay is below them and imigrants that are only too happy to have a job will be taking up all the jobs - look at fruit picking for example - there is a large number of overseas works doing most of the picking cause it is below kiwis.

[Drunken Monkey]

I can't be bothered reading all the posts ...

Nice. Why should we be bothered giving your opinion any consideration?

[Indiana_Jones]

It isn't that hard to quit and find another job.

I don't like to see people get done over, but if you don't want minimum wage, don't get a minimum wage job?.

It'd hardly be fair if the guy who sweeps the streets gets the same as a doctor :dodge:

-Indy

[SwanTiger]

I don't like to see people get done over, but if you don't want minimum wage, don't get a minimum wage job?.

It'd hardly be fair if the guy who sweeps the streets gets the same as a doctor :dodge:

-Indy
We Human beings are gifted with the unique ability to decide our path in life and there are ample opportunities to exercise that gift every day.

As for your 'fairness' comparison between a Doctor and someone in street maintenance; This is a poor argument as you are trying to contrast the difference of social responsibility based on generalisations.

In my opinion they are equal as one seeks to cure ill health whilst the other prevents ill health through maintaining the sanitry standards we enjoy today.

Visit such a place as Thailand for perspective in terms of public sanitry standards.

Anyway, back to your first comment regarding 'people getting done over'.

I agree with you and hate to see it happen but it does happen and if people are aware of it and choose to accept it then they deserve what they get as they've exercised the little 'Gift' I mentioned above.

It's nice to see people on strike and trying to get what they believe they're rightfully deserved - Still believe they should try moving on to new opportunities though as it is now evident that they're unlikely to acheive anything worth while with this strike.

[LilSel]

Still believe they should try moving on to new opportunities though as it is now evident that they're unlikely to acheive anything worth while with this strike.

:yes: I Agree...

I worked for Progressive (was woolies till the takeover) for 5 years, I started there when I was 15yrs old & still at school (after school and weekends etc). When I finished school I worked there full time up to the age of 20.
I didnt have any probs with the amount that I got paid, as it was better than nothing!
Without the experience and work history I gained there, I would not be where I am now in a well paid job (a little over 2yrs) in an industry that I love.

There will always be a need for someone to stock the shelves, scan groceries and man the drive thru window... thats just life.

Start at the bottom, have ambition, work hard and you'll be rewarded.
(well...thats what I think anyway lol)

one more thing... if the workers got a 30% increase... grocery prices would go up... and even more parents wouldnt be able to put food on the table for their kids...??? right?? or wrong?
there are lots of places that pay worse than progressive does... and those pple have mouths to feed too...:done:

[Paul in NZ]

I don't really know enough about the detail to have a strong opinion on this.

I do know that there are people in low paid work that are really struggling to get by BUT on the other hand, there is a real shortage of labour at the moment and a good attitude and some ambition can really get you going.

BUT - How the heck can this happen under a Labour government...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3787359a10,00.html

As an ex Union Branch Committee member, I'm simply amazed.... The company obviously does not care what this stuff does to their image - never would have happened a few decades ago.

It just goes to show that these people are really powerless to negotiate a 'union' agreement. It's so medievil...

Paul N

[Ixion]

Security guards and police armed with batons continued to face off with the protesters at press time.



And d'y' still wonder why I oppose arming the police with Tasers ? Any cops want to still maintain the fiction that Tasers will only be to protect them from "vicious criminals" ?

But the policehave always been the willing tools of the capitalists, nothing has changed since Massey's Cossacks.

[Hitcher]

But the policehave always been the willing tools of the capitalists, nothing has changed since Massey's Cossacks.

For heaven's sake. Stalin put police to pretty useful effect as well.

[Indiana_Jones]

As Viper says:

"Now, we don't make policy here, gentlemen. Elected officials, civilians, do that. We are the instruments of that policy."

-Indy

[Lou Girardin]

But the policehave always been the willing tools of the capitalists, nothing has changed since Massey's Cossacks.

None more willing than the current crop. Howard is shaping up just like Robbie.

[kevie]

BUT - How the heck can this happen under a Labour government...

As an ex Union Branch Committee member, I'm simply amazed.... The company obviously does not care what this stuff does to their image - never would have happened a few decades ago.

It just goes to show that these people are really powerless to negotiate a 'union' agreement. It's so medievil...

Paul N

YEP thats one of my concerns ..... our generations have worked hard to enable an environment where workers have the ability to negotiate with the employer.

I see a danger in what is happening here that will cancel out all that was achieved over the years, Heres a group of workers that is making what the company claims is an unrealistic demand, and a company that is challenging the unions and workers power to sway the situation.... they have taken on SLAG labour and are seemingly not being that inconvenienced. AND teres still customers in their shops, and Progressive is big enough to absorb the lost sales longer than the strikers can handle the no pay.
Progressive, should they win the battle will set the platform for all other employers to run roughshod over the workers and drive down wages and conditions
This should be a concern to all of us..... Im not saying they should give in to the demands, BUT I always feel if theres job satisfaction and fair treatment theres less chance in a workplace of problems and unrest...... sure in our society the bug that has bitten businesses of GET GET GET more $$$$s and higher profits is starting to bite the workers too where they are demanding "the right to a share of these profits".... years ago it used to be "Im happy with my job and the boss treats me good and I have enough to meet my needs".

I was thinking the other day..... what would happen if the public of NZ got united (good Tui Adv I think) and all stopped going to progressive stores....and rang their local store to tell them they werent going there because of the strike and non settlement.... I bet there would be a quick settlement then.
I have never needed the union, never been on strike .... Ive only had a couple employers (in 37 years) that were pricks and I simply voted with my feet and moved on.

[Lias]

As an ex Union Branch Committee member, I'm simply amazed.... The company obviously does not care what this stuff does to their image - never would have happened a few decades ago.

Well personally I'm making sure I only buy from progressive supermarkets atm, to support them.

Its just a pity we cant get a government that will truly break the power of the unions.

[TLDV8]

Does anyone know what the pay rate is and what they are asking for ?

[Lou Girardin]

Well personally I'm making sure I only buy from progressive supermarkets atm, to support them.

Its just a pity we cant get a government that will truly break the power of the unions.

National tried it with the ECA, funny how you can never totally crush peoples rights. Even guns have failed.

[McJim]

Does anyone know what the pay rate is and what they are asking for ?

There will be various pay rates I would imagine but it won't be far off mimimum. Reason is the general public refuse to pay a fair price for their groceries so the supermarkets cannot afford to pay a fair price for staff.

I buy my stuff from New World coz they treat their staff better but it costs me quite a bit more - that's the pay off I'm afraid.

Alledgedly it's somewhere between 4 and 8 percent. But the media have got it so far wrong so far ....I'm just not sure.

Not like we'll find anyone in the know on the kiwibiker website - progressive don't pay their employees anough to buy motorbikes!

[Hitcher]

Let's not have a discussion about what being "fair" involves, other than a lot of bullshit nonsense.

Unions have their place. But just as there are exploitive employers there are also bullying unions. Fortunately our world is not dominated by either group.

I think that history will prove that Laila Harre went too far with her union's action against Progressive, in all likelihood and sadly to the detriment of its members.

[Paul in NZ]

The problem is not unions - it's the imbalance of power. Too much on either side and you have a problem.

Believe it or not, not every employer are nice, decent people like Finn. There are some utter bastards out there and unfortunately, some people do need protection of unions. The bigger the company the worse they are in some cases.

At the moment, there are job options aplenty so moving to another job is possible BUT in other times that is not a realistic option and history tells us, the ordinary man can get well screwed. It happens, I've seen it happen and I've seen the other side of unions as well...

Still, ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances....

[Ixion]

..
I think that history will prove that Laila Harre went too far with her union's action against Progressive, in all likelihood and sadly to the detriment of its members.

Yes, I don't think she picked her battle carefully enough. There's no real meat in it. Unions need to pick their causes carefully, pick something that is easily understood and generates public sympathy. A strike over having one national contract instead of three regional ones (that's not really what it's about, but that's what tyhe public see) doesn't grip the heartstrings.

I wouldn't say she went too far, because with Progressive there's no middle ground, you either roll over and accept the shafting, or fight. But she needed to manufacture a more spinnable casus belli.

[Lias]

Not like we'll find anyone in the know on the kiwibiker website - progressive don't pay their employees anough to buy motorbikes!

My uncle works for progressive (No hes not striking, nor is he some hugely paid executive) so I'm not just sitting here talking shit out my arse.

[Deano]

Not like we'll find anyone in the know on the kiwibiker website - progressive don't pay their employees anough to buy motorbikes!

I started my first part time job at Woolies when I was 15, on $2.98 per hour. (Probably minimum wage)

Within 6 months and a lot of hours worked I was able to afford my first motorbike. Then I discovered alcohol and girls and didn't manage to save any money again for many years.

[Paul in NZ]

Yes, I don't think she picked her battle carefully enough. There's no real meat in it. Unions need to pick their causes carefully, pick something that is easily understood and generates public sympathy. A strike over having one national contract instead of three regional ones (that's not really what it's about, but that's what tyhe public see) doesn't grip the heartstrings.

I wouldn't say she went too far, because with Progressive there's no middle ground, you either roll over and accept the shafting, or fight. But she needed to manufacture a more spinnable casus belli.

Or she needed to make sure she could win if it came to a knock down fight.

In any negotiation you should try to provide an honourable outcome for both parties. Going for the king hit all or nothing solution is a pretty high risk strategy I would have thought? One thing is for sure, they have got a massive problem on their hands now...

It's one thing grabbing a tigers tail, it's quite another letting go...

[LilSel]

There will be various pay rates I would imagine but it won't be far off mimimum.

They pay above minimum, the pple that are striking at the moment are from distribution, and get paid more than the checkout operators etc you see in store. *knows this*
I went into the store I used to work in (for 5 years) the other night to get some red bull... and there was the 'supersize my pay' bus and a whole lot of workers from distribution striking, with loudspeakers etc. blocking entrances/exits to the carpark (?). needless to say, due to this, the police arrived soon after. I had a chat with my old work mates, they wern't so happy about the goings on of late.
Because they belonged to the union, they were to strike in store for an hour. Not because they wanted to however. *shrug*... sounds a bit wrong to me.
People in store that belong to the union are being made to strike as well??!
Futhermore, blasting on the loud speaker 'do NOT shop at foodtown, woolworths countdown and pricechopper' to me is like self sabotage.... if customers shop elsewhere, then sales would fall, less stock would be required to be sent out and the need for distribution staff would fall... thus putting more of people out of work?. Are they not making the situation worse for themselves?? *shrug* :done:

[Indiana_Jones]

I started my first part time job at Woolies when I was 15, on $2.98 per hour. (Probably minimum wage)

Within 6 months and a lot of hours worked I was able to afford my first motorbike. Then I discovered alcohol and girls and didn't manage to save any money again for many years.


So that's where all my money's going!

-Indy

[Paul in NZ]

They pay above minimum, the pple that are striking at the moment are from distribution, and get paid more than the checkout operators etc you see in store. *knows this*
I went into the store I used to work in (for 5 years) the other night to get some red bull... and there was the 'supersize my pay' bus and a whole lot of workers from distribution striking, with loudspeakers etc. blocking entrances/exits to the carpark (?). needless to say, due to this, the police arrived soon after. I had a chat with my old work mates, they wern't so happy about the goings on of late.
Because they belonged to the union, they were to strike in store for an hour. Not because they wanted to however. *shrug*... sounds a bit wrong to me.
People in store that belong to the union are being made to strike as well??!
Futhermore, blasting on the loud speaker 'do NOT shop at foodtown, woolworths countdown and pricechopper' to me is like self sabotage.... if customers shop elsewhere, then sales would fall, less stock would be required to be sent out and the need for distribution staff would fall... thus putting more of people out of work?. Are they not making the situation worse for themselves?? *shrug* :done:

Hmmm... Sounds like someone using union techniques from the 50's... That aint gunna work..

[Lou Girardin]

Because they belonged to the union, they were to strike in store for an hour. Not because they wanted to however.

That is the definition of UNION. What are unions supposed to do? Call for volunteers to strike?
It's called solidarity. The only power those at the bottom of the food chain have.

[Patrick]

And d'y' still wonder why I oppose arming the police with Tasers ? Any cops want to still maintain the fiction that Tasers will only be to protect them from "vicious criminals" ?

But the policehave always been the willing tools of the capitalists, nothing has changed since Massey's Cossacks.

:zzzz: if Pepper spray isn't allowed at protests, how are Tazers going to be?????

[Finn]

:zzzz: if Pepper spray isn't allowed at protests, how are Tazers going to be?????

That's crazy. What are you supposed to do to protect yourself, throw doughnuts at them?

[Ixion]

:zzzz: if Pepper spray isn't allowed at protests, how are Tazers going to be?????

Its a picket line, not a protest

[Finn]

Its a picket line, not a protest

Excellent formality Ixion. I say shoot em!

[Ixion]

Excellent idea. I'm all in favour of it. There's nothing better than martyr's blood for fueling Revolutionary fires. Perhaps we may yet add "Progressive" to "Putilov" in the annals of liberation.

[Patrick]

Its a picket line, not a protest

A Picket line "PROTESTING" about shite wages...:bleh:

[Paul in NZ]

Excellent idea. I'm all in favour of it. There's nothing better than martyr's blood for fueling Revolutionary fires. Perhaps we may yet add "Progressive" to "Putilov" in the annals of liberation.

yeah but can we get them to wait until next winter? Revolutionary Fires always burn hotter in the winter of discontent..... Seems a bit girly to have it in spring?

[Hitcher]

Its a picket line, not a protest

Semantic twaddle.

[Ixion]

Legal twaddle maybe, but a Union picket line is a very different beast to a protest. Incidentally, it's not a strike either, it's a lockout.

[The Pastor]

Ffs Tell Those Union Suckers To Get Back To Work.

I Started Out On My $7.30 And I Didn't Complain. If They Want More Money Get A Nother Job No One Is Forcing You To Work There.

[Hitcher]

It's not a strike either, it's a lockout.

1951 all over again! Either way, it's not working...

[Finn]

1951 all over again! Either way, it's not working...

Yeah, I'm out of Cornflakes!

[Ixion]

1951 all over again! Either way, it's not working...


No. Along long long way still from 1951. No-one who remembers those days would make such a comparison.

[Hitcher]

No. Along long long way still from 1951. No-one who remembers those days would make such a comparison.

I was referencing the terms "lock-out" and "strike", most famously juxtaposed depending on what side one may have been on in relation to the 1951 strike. You can still pick people's backgrounds today, depending on how they describe this event. I agree, today's standoff is flaccidly flatulent by comparison.

[Paul in NZ]

I think we need to be a little careful here....

Unions got a very bad reputation when they became all powerful but funnily enough in that time, the 'average' Kiwi enjoyed a very good standard of living and many of us look back on it as a kind of Golden Age...

The break up of the unions and the great changes that occured were very advantageous to many people. If you were smart and could look after yourself, you did very well and yet there were many people who did not do so good. Look at (for instance) a telecom Linesman in the early 70's and the same guys now??

Anyway - Lets not dis unions. The union I was invovled with did a hell of a lot of good and looked after you when times were not so good. We negotiated continued employment (lower rates of pay) for members that had suffered breakdowns etc just to keep them earning a living wage while they recovered and made sure they were looked after. Our employer also did their bit in this regard.

My grandfather was a secretary of the Tramways Union during the depression and unions were the only protection many ordinary folk had and yes, it came down to pick axe handles and late night negotiating at times.

Unionism is a right. Workers have got the right to freely associate and organisethemselves into organised labour. You may not agree with their aims BUT it is essential these rights are protected - it might be you that needs it one day!

[Ixion]

,,.

The break up of the unions and the great changes that occured were very advantageous to many people. If you were smart and could look after yourself, you did very well and yet there were many people who did not do so good. ,,

Unions were not (and are not) based on the premise of getting the best deal for those who are smart and able to look after themselves (I am writing for the general audience here, I realise that you know that , Paul).

They are premised on getting the best and fairest deal for those NOT well able to guard their own interests. And the premise that the smart and clever are willing to accept a deal that is personally less advantageous to themselves , in the interests of a decent deal for the less able.

And, as you say, none of us know when circumstances may perhaps transform us into one of the "less able". Karma's a bitch at times.

The old State industries (Railways, PTO etc) did an enormous amount of unrecognised social good in keeping people in the mainstream of society who today are thrown on the scrap heap. (And incidentally, making it much harder for the shirkers, since there could be no excuse at all for not having a job).

No human being there was ever treated as a disposable commodity.

Only now is the realisation of the true cost of a "market economy" starting to be appreciated . And , along with that realisation, a dawning awareness of just how much society as a whole is subsiding the Corporations and the exploiters.

[Scouse]

Yeah, I'm out of Cornflakes!Mate we have got some Cornflakes for you

[WINJA]

Unions Are Great , Our Union Called Us To Strike Many Years Ago , Our Union Guy Had His Finger On The Pulse And Saw The Righting On The Wall The Boss Was Being All Pally And Shit Saying You Dont Need A Union And You Dont Need A Redundancy Agreement , Well We Just Had 5 Guys Laid Off And We Went On Stirke And We Got A Redundancy Agreement Then About 4 Weeks Later I Was One Of 7 To Be Made Redundant , I Am Forever Gratefull To The Union For That Redundancy Payout, Just Goes To Prove My Boss Then Like Most Bosses Of Big Companys Are Liars And Bullshiters The Cunt Woulda Sent Me On My Way Without A Penny

[scumdog]

And d'y' still wonder why I oppose arming the police with Tasers ? Any cops want to still maintain the fiction that Tasers will only be to protect them from "vicious criminals" ?

But the policehave always been the willing tools of the capitalists, nothing has changed since Massey's Cossacks.

THIS cop will maintain the 'fiction'!!

Don't hit me with your picket sign and I won't shoot you with my Tazer, fair 'nough??.

[scumdog]

I started my first part time job at Woolies when I was 15, on $2.98 per hour. (Probably minimum wage)

Within 6 months and a lot of hours worked I was able to afford my first motorbike. Then I discovered alcohol and girls and didn't manage to save any money again for many years.

Softcock!
It was 54 cents an hour with the South Otago Catchment Board in 1969, - and I was taxed on the too!!!!:yes: :gob:

[Warren]

*cough* When I left foodstuffs earlier this year the starting wage was $10.40 per hour ($12 for those with a few years experience), so the progressive wage would be similar espacially that they are both covered by the same union (NDU).

[Lou Girardin]

I love the comments from people who've known nothing but 'New Right' ideaology in their working careers. They know nothing of the working conditions people enjoyed 30 or 40 years ago.
Overtime at time and a half or double time, tool allowances, meal allowances. Living wages, you could raise a family, own a home etc on one wage.
All this was removed and we were sold down the river by a Labour Govt (actually ACT in drag).
Granted, there were problems back then. But, as Aust has done, they could have been fixed without wholesale destruction of a way of life.
And the benficiaries of these changes?
Your Fayes, Richwhites, Gibbs and Kerrs and the other leaches typified by the Busines Roundtable.

[Lias]

Overtime at time and a half or double time, tool allowances, meal allowances.

These things DO exist, albeit rarely.

I've worked for companies in the last 5 years that provided time and a half, meal allowances, and if not tool allowances brought me gear for my job and let me keep it.

[Skyryder]

I love the comments from people who've known nothing but 'New Right' ideaology in their working careers. They know nothing of the working conditions people enjoyed 30 or 40 years ago.
Overtime at time and a half or double time, tool allowances, meal allowances. Living wages, you could raise a family, own a home etc on one wage.
All this was removed and we were sold down the river by a Labour Govt (actually ACT in drag).
Granted, there were problems back then. But, as Aust has done, they could have been fixed without wholesale destruction of a way of life.
And the benficiaries of these changes?
Your Fayes, Richwhites, Gibbs and Kerrs and the other leaches typified by the Busines Roundtable.

Good one lou. All this bullshit about Labour freeing up the market .......yea right..........freeing up the market for the freebooters.

As you say there was a time when one wage could cope sufficeintly well. Not today. Labour fucked up big time with Rodgernomics..................but it was Muldoon who portrayed the unions as bogymen that eventually led to Labours market forces ideology.

Skyryder

[Colapop]

Go back to work ya lazy bastards!! I can't get what I want at the supermarket....


What??? F*ck no, I'm not going to read 9 pages of thread...

[Brian d marge]

I love the comments from people who've known nothing but 'New Right' ideaology in their working careers. They know nothing of the working conditions people enjoyed 30 or 40 years ago.
Overtime at time and a half or double time, tool allowances, meal allowances. Living wages, you could raise a family, own a home etc on one wage.
All this was removed and we were sold down the river by a Labour Govt (actually ACT in drag).
Granted, there were problems back then. But, as Aust has done, they could have been fixed without wholesale destruction of a way of life.
And the benficiaries of these changes?
Your Fayes, Richwhites, Gibbs and Kerrs and the other leaches typified by the Busines Roundtable.

I left NZ for the first time, just before that happened , when I came back some 12 years later ,,it was WTF has happened here. So I did a bit of digging , and stumbled upon a lovely little film , name escapes me for now , But ,,, long and short m the monetary climate was changing , due to the introduction of a new way af trading stocks ( I still dont understand it ) ..and governments had to attract investment into the country , as now the money could easily be moved ,
Andy kriegler , bought NZ money then dumped it for a profit, causing a devaluation...

Now heres where I part company with the thinking, NZ did the right thing BUT it did it TOO quickly, ( unlike Aussie who implimented a strategy ..or somesort of long term arrangement) NZ way left a large underclass , from which our present hoodies stem from ....
It wasnt Labour , national or ho chee min it was alan gibbs ( lower case as aI have now respect for what they did) and all the other lou mentioned ...THEY are the ones dictating the country, ( anyone remember the think tank proposal document ...it was a ;oad of self interested rubbish)

What I want to see is deliberate step taken to say we stuffed up , other countrys didi it better we will do what they do

AND ..a program put in placeto show/help parents raise children ..as in your child gets /shows tendencys to get into trouble ...YOU AND your kids have to be chaparoned through life , by a ma from the ministery...( None of this faith based rubbish ..not because I dont approve, its just that I fell its to open for abuse ....)


Otherwise, we will havve hoodies breeding with hoodies ...and before you know it

Stephen

ps this is a short history .... http://www.asahi.com/english/asianet/column/eng_011221.html

[cowboyz]

DO YOU REALLY THINK YOUR GROCERY BILLS WILL GO UP ANYMORE THEY WONT BECAUSE PROGRESIVE HAVE TO PRICE ACCORDING TO FOODSTUFFS PRICE IT JUST MEANS PROGREIVES ALREADY HUGE PROFIT IS JUST A BIT SMALLER ,

It shouldn't be forgotten that Foodstuffs are actually really shocking. Much worse than woolworths. Foodstuffs starting rate is $11.50 while WW is $15.70 in the distribution centres in Palmerston North. The guys are PN WW are actually quite well treated. They are striking for their comrades in other parts of the county. The NDU has 95% support in WW but about 10% support in foodstuffs. While I was working at foodstuffs I witnessed serveral times a day the pressure management put on the floor staff threatening them with all sorts of things like no overtime and more pressure on making standards if they joined the union. I was quickly made the union delegate for the time I was there but it is a uphill battle. When people are living week to week and they need their next paycheck then they can't see the wood for the trees - and often not because they don't want to - it is because they cant afford to.

[terbang]

Lets not lose sight of what is happening here. It is now a Lockout rather than a Strike. A lockout is a seige put upon workers by an emplyer to force them to agree to something that is in dispute. Having being locked out myself (ex Ansett NZ) I can vouch for its destructive nature. I, funnily enough, am still locked out by Ansett as I didn't agree to what they were trying to ram down my throat, caught a plane and took a job in Europe. Came home after a 5 year adventure to find a different industrial climate in NZ. I still have the lockout notice and it is a draconian document by any measure. The Ansett NZ debarcle was nothing more than a bunch of Aussie businessmen (murdoch of newscorp) thumping some Kiwi workers, with absolutely no real intention to negotiate, in an attempt to make an airline attractive for sale. They eventually flogged the mortally wounded company off to some local Kiwi suckers who subsequently went down the gurgler. Everyone lost..
I'll be buying my groceries elswhere..

[Finn]

I left NZ for the first time, just before that happened , when I came back some 12 years later ,,it was WTF has happened here. So I did a bit of digging , and stumbled upon a lovely little film , name escapes me for now...

Once We're Warriors. That's what's happended to NZ.

[WINJA]

I'll be buying my groceries elswhere..

THATS RIGHT YOU CAN BUY YOUR GROCERIES ELSEWHERE IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE FOODSTUFFS OR PROGRESIVE STORES , THERE WERE SOME NICE LITTLE PLACES TO SHOP IN AUCKS WITH SIMILAR PRICES TO THE BIG 2 AND I LIKED PUTTING MY MONEY THERE

[The Pastor]

Sif I'll buy my goceries where I like. And that will be were ever is cheapest. I dont care how much the staff get payed or how much pollution the company puts out.

[Scouse]

Sif I'll buy my goceries where I like. And that will be were ever is cheapest. I dont care how much the staff get payed or how much pollution the company puts out.what are you taking about you dont buy groceries your mum still buys them for you

[The Pastor]

It shouldn't be forgotten that Foodstuffs are actually really shocking. Much worse than woolworths. Foodstuffs starting rate is $11.50 while WW is $15.70 in the distribution centres in Palmerston North. The guys are PN WW are actually quite well treated. They are striking for their comrades in other parts of the county. The NDU has 95% support in WW but about 10% support in foodstuffs. While I was working at foodstuffs I witnessed serveral times a day the pressure management put on the floor staff threatening them with all sorts of things like no overtime and more pressure on making standards if they joined the union. I was quickly made the union delegate for the time I was there but it is a uphill battle. When people are living week to week and they need their next paycheck then they can't see the wood for the trees - and often not because they don't want to - it is because they cant afford to.


Shit me. I stated on $8 bucks. After 3 raises im on 11.50-12 somthing wtf are you all complaining about? Starting rate 11.50? Damn man thats more than what ive been earning for the last 3 months. You dont hear me complaing (of my job often you will hear me say cant do that for I have no money but thats differnt) If I wanted more money I'd get another job. There are PLEANTY of people who would love 11.50 an hour. Move to otago and get over it.

[Beemer]

blah blah blah... Your Fayes, Richwhites, Gibbs and Kerrs and the other leaches typified by the Busines Roundtable.

Excuse ME Lou, but don't lump all us Fayes in with the likes of (I assume this is who you meant) Fay Richwhite and the like!

And while I may be self-employed, it's just a fancy way of saying "doesn't get much money some months"!

[cowboyz]

renegade... I bet it is not difficult to live on $8/hour when you have you, yourself and fuckall to support. Go knock up a chick and then start working out how you are going to start supporting a family on ~$260 per week. These companies thrive on the lower class and they have a social responibility not to screw them into the dirt at every oppourtunity. ALOT of people working on the floor at the distribution centres are honest hard working people who show up for work week in week out and don't know any better. They honestly believe that if they cause any trouble then they will get fired and there is nothing else out there. Now I am not saying that everyone who works as a labourer is a dumbarse - not by far. The more abitious venture on to other careers or get promoted up the chain very quickly. The ones that are left are left with the dreggs... then go home to find they are struggling to pay the rent and have to work more hours just to make ends meet and then the cycle goes round and round. It is alot more complicated that trying to figure out if you are going to put $10 gas in your bike or go for a soda with your mates.

[Lou Girardin]

Once We're Warriors. That's what's happended to NZ.

Yeah, that's it. Put people put off work in the name of 'efficiency', in reality meaning more profits for the few. Then let the poor mug taxpayer pick up the bill for the social chaos that ensues.

[Lou Girardin]

Excuse ME Lou, but don't lump all us Fayes in with the likes of (I assume this is who you meant) Fay Richwhite and the like!

And while I may be self-employed, it's just a fancy way of saying "doesn't get much money some months"!

Sorry Faye. Unless you're a rapacious fatcat too.

[The Pastor]

renegade... I bet it is not difficult to live on $8/hour when you have you, yourself and fuckall to support. Go knock up a chick and then start working out how you are going to start supporting a family on ~$260 per week. These companies thrive on the lower class and they have a social responibility not to screw them into the dirt at every oppourtunity. ALOT of people working on the floor at the distribution centres are honest hard working people who show up for work week in week out and don't know any better. They honestly believe that if they cause any trouble then they will get fired and there is nothing else out there. Now I am not saying that everyone who works as a labourer is a dumbarse - not by far. The more abitious venture on to other careers or get promoted up the chain very quickly. The ones that are left are left with the dreggs... then go home to find they are struggling to pay the rent and have to work more hours just to make ends meet and then the cycle goes round and round. It is alot more complicated that trying to figure out if you are going to put $10 gas in your bike or go for a soda with your mates.


It was their choice to start a family on a low wage.

[Hitcher]

I am interested to note the number of folk posting here who seem to believe that the Progressive workers' strike is all about money. Oh that it were so simple.

[Finn]

Yeah, that's it. Put people put off work in the name of 'efficiency', in reality meaning more profits for the few. Then let the poor mug taxpayer pick up the bill for the social chaos that ensues.

Jesus Lou, something's really got you going lately.

[98tls]

I just got back from ch-ch an hour ago and saw all those guys with banners waving etc..got to hand it to them there determined....gotta disagree with a post back abit though about raising kids on a low wage...if you cant afford them dont fucken have them...besides the bloody government giving you handouts to raise your kids anyway....something i reckon is bullshit indeed,cant see any reason for the government (read as the rest of NZ ) to pay for your bloody kids........the rest of us get no handouts nor expect any...

[speedpro]

Yeah, I'm out of Cornflakes!

I can sell you cornflakes, , for a price!

[cowboyz]

Oh how great it would be to live in this fantasy world of renegade and 98tls where everything goes as planned and life never throws you a curveball. I know of one guy who worked at foodstuffs on the floor. Hell of a nice guy. showed up for work and did his work well. Worked 6 days a week and supported his girlfriend and their 2 year old son. Really was quite proud of his family. I am sure you have met the type. Anyway, his girlfriend got pregant again. His showed great concern on how he would afford to raise another. He was doing alright on low income with 1 child but 2? Never seen a guy get so stressed so quickly until he found out he was having twins. Now he has 3 under 3. Up against the grindstone and still working as hard as he can to support his family. Sure he could probably drop off working and his girlfriend could go on the dpb and they would probably make more money. Would that be the smart thing to do? It was often said that money is like sex and air... it doesn't matter till your not getting any.

I have lived a fortunate life and consider myself lucky for the ventures that I have taken on that have secured a lifestyle that I don't have to worry too much about things. Giving up farming last year and moving to town we have taken a substaincial drop in income and these days things are done on a stict budget. I do not forsee things staying like this forever but have also been fortunate enough to meet and be considerate enough of others to see their plight for what it is. I remember once when I was working on a contract up north for a very wealthy famer (we are talking multi-millions) and we were fortunate enough to buy into a contract that enabled us to raise our children in a fashion that that didn't want for anything. It was the time when the 'once were warriors' movie came out. We were sitting at an evening dinner eating well and drinking wine and the discussion turned to the movie. The owners wife was sitting across the table, well dressed and content with her life. I looked around the 3 million dollar home she owned and the thousands of dollars of jewelery that she has round her neck and her words were so cutting that I couldn't believe I was in the same room and I will never forget. What did she say?

Quote.."The movie was just stupid. Things like that don't happen in real life!"

[Finn]

I find it sad how a lot of you have been tarred with the Kiwi brush of perfecting non achievement and blaming everything and everybody for the one thing you’ve succeeded in. The NZ attitude that anybody who has some money is evil and runs sweatshops is just small island thinking as a result of years of social engineering that have turned a lot of you into good for nothing, pathetic puppets.

Fact: There will always be poor people. You can't change that. So, get of your lazy arses and do something with your meaningless lives. What ever happened to self responsibility and accountability?

Stupid islanders. (That's NZ for the simpletons)

[The Pastor]

dubble post

[The Pastor]

Oh how great it would be to live in this fantasy world of renegade and 98tls where everything goes as planned and life never throws you a curveball. I know of one guy who worked at foodstuffs on the floor. Hell of a nice guy. showed up for work and did his work well. Worked 6 days a week and supported his girlfriend and their 2 year old son. Really was quite proud of his family. I am sure you have met the type. Anyway, his girlfriend got pregant again. His showed great concern on how he would afford to raise another. He was doing alright on low income with 1 child but 2? Never seen a guy get so stressed so quickly until he found out he was having twins. Now he has 3 under 3. Up against the grindstone and still working as hard as he can to support his family. Sure he could probably drop off working and his girlfriend could go on the dpb and they would probably make more money. Would that be the smart thing to do? It was often said that money is like sex and air... it doesn't matter till your not getting any.

I have lived a fortunate life and consider myself lucky for the ventures that I have taken on that have secured a lifestyle that I don't have to worry too much about things. Giving up farming last year and moving to town we have taken a substaincial drop in income and these days things are done on a stict budget. I do not forsee things staying like this forever but have also been fortunate enough to meet and be considerate enough of others to see their plight for what it is. I remember once when I was working on a contract up north for a very wealthy famer (we are talking multi-millions) and we were fortunate enough to buy into a contract that enabled us to raise our children in a fashion that that didn't want for anything. It was the time when the 'once were warriors' movie came out. We were sitting at an evening dinner eating well and drinking wine and the discussion turned to the movie. The owners wife was sitting across the table, well dressed and content with her life. I looked around the 3 million dollar home she owned and the thousands of dollars of jewelery that she has round her neck and her words were so cutting that I couldn't believe I was in the same room and I will never forget. What did she say?

Quote.."The movie was just stupid. Things like that don't happen in real life!"


If you aint got the rubber, no hubba hubba.

You can get benifits for low income + kids.

If you budget you can raise 3 kids on $11.50 and save.

50 hour week at 11.50 = 575

Less tax of 20% (it might be less but thats my tax rate and im low/ non existant income)

Tax @ 20% of 575 = 115

Income after tax per week $460

Plus benifits (no idea how much this is but i'd guess at 200 a week? more for more than 2 kids?)

Plus income/child support from other parent.

so you'd be on at least 800 a week after tax.

thats 41 grand a year. SORTED.


The point is bringing a kid into this messed up world is a very serrious event. I personally don't think enough planning/ effort is put into the decion making. Yeah I know this is a hard thing to do, its as hard as my cock on a friday night mate.

[Pixie]

Unions got a very bad reputation when they became all powerful but funnily enough in that time, the 'average' Kiwi enjoyed a very good standard of living and many of us look back on it as a kind of Golden Age...

The break up of the unions and the great changes that occured were very advantageous to many people. If you were smart and could look after yourself, you did very well and yet there were many people who did not do so good.

The unions are self interested bludgers
In 1980 I asked the union to help me get a pay increase.
The responce: "sorry bud ,you're on the award"
As soon as possible I dumped them and began making real money.
I suspect this is a common experience

[Paul in NZ]

The unions are self interested bludgers
In 1980 I asked the union to help me get a pay increase.
The responce: "sorry bud ,you're on the award"
As soon as possible I dumped them and began making real money.
I suspect this is a common experience

Not all Unions are so inclined and thats certainly not why Unions were originally formed. I suspect there are also a GREAT man people now considerably worse off than they were under the union system.

I thought Ross Wilsons (pres CTU) comments in this mornings Dom Post were well written and quite interesting reading.

Paul N

[terbang]

I am interested to note the number of folk posting here who seem to believe that the Progressive workers' strike is all about money. Oh that it were so simple.

Yeah it is about money. Shareholders money..

[terbang]

Sif I'll buy my goceries where I like. And that will be were ever is cheapest. I dont care how much the staff get payed or how much pollution the company puts out.

So then as a worker (and I see you are) your conditions, therefore lifestyle, will continue to deteiorate.

[The Pastor]

So then as a worker (and I see you are) your conditions, therefore lifestyle, will continue to deteiorate.

why? 10 chars?

[terbang]

Fact: There will always be poor people. You can't change that. So, get of your lazy arses and do something with your meaningless lives. What ever happened to self responsibility and accountability?

Stupid islanders. (That's NZ for the simpletons)

That has to be the most arrogant post that I have seen on this Site..

[Finn]

That has to be the most arrogant post that I have seen on this Site..

Cool, where's my prize?

[SPman]

Cool, where's my prize?
You get to be first against the wall...............

[cowboyz]

The NZ attitude that anybody who has some money is evil and runs sweatshops is just small island thinking as a result of years of social engineering that have turned a lot of you into good for nothing, pathetic puppets.

Fact: There will always be poor people. You can't change that. So, get of your lazy arses and do something with your meaningless lives. What ever happened to self responsibility and accountability?

Stupid islanders. (That's NZ for the simpletons)

I don't think this is true at all. Just because I have some money tucked away for the future doesn't mean I have to be an arse to those less fortunate. I can see how people can get tied up on the merry-go-round and while the ride seems entertaining at first, you just end up going round in circles.


If you aint got the rubber, no hubba hubba.

You can get benifits for low income + kids.

If you budget you can raise 3 kids on $11.50 and save.

50 hour week at 11.50 = 575

Less tax of 20% (it might be less but thats my tax rate and im low/ non existant income)

Tax @ 20% of 575 = 115

Income after tax per week $460

Plus benifits (no idea how much this is but i'd guess at 200 a week? more for more than 2 kids?)

Plus income/child support from other parent.

so you'd be on at least 800 a week after tax.

thats 41 grand a year. SORTED.


The point is bringing a kid into this messed up world is a very serrious event. I personally don't think enough planning/ effort is put into the decion making. Yeah I know this is a hard thing to do, its as hard as my cock on a friday night mate.


Lets recalculate that on a 40 hour week. After all, if you are not the kind of person who can speak up for yourself and just a quiet worker and want to put your faith in others who you think can do a better job at working out the contract side of things then chances are you will only get a 40 hour week. Now we are at $360 per week. Just lost 100 bux there. Then there is rent to pay and the increase in everything else (groceries, petrol for instance) and that leaves SFA for everything else.

All fair saying that the government can cough up the change in benefits but that means that the taxpayer (yep, thats my money they are taking and don't seem to have any accountability on where they spend it) has to fork out for it while big, overseas companies post $100M profits. Why not scrap the family assistance policies and make the minimum wage something that families can get somewhere with. I am talking $500 per week in your hand to put a figure on it.


That has to be the most arrogant post that I have seen on this Site..

Couldn't agree more. It is outstanding that someone can be so concieted.



Cool, where's my prize?

Your prize is knowing that there is a guy you don't know sitting in front of his computer somewhere in the country thinking.. What a fucking tosser...

Tomorrow you will go do whatever you do on Tuesdays.

Oh yeah. If you are paying $1M in taxes then you have an extremely large organization or you need a new accountant.

[Finn]

Cowboyz, I'm not talking about people with 2 tv's. I'm talking about people that have achieved something great. What do we do? We knock them down. Why? Because we are mostly a pathetic race of non achievers so quick to blame big business, overseas investment and SUV's.

As for going around in circles, I have no idea what you're on about.

Your minimum wage increase idea won't work for the "less fortunate". They'll just spend more on booze, pokey’s and getting more into debt. Education is the only answer but we don't have any schools, just cultural centres preaching mediocrity.

Thanks for the advice on getting a better accountant. I thought PWC were pretty good.

[cowboyz]

The 80s and 90s were are generation of buy now, pay later. We are seeing the consequence of it now. You are right about education. Look at the facilities that are around these days. Absolutely ridculous. We have all sorts of "training providers" who do not actually teach anything of value just so people can clock up a "student" loan that they will never pay back. This is not as simple a problem as you are trying to make it sound.

A little while ago I was involved in negotiating the union contract on behalf of the floor staff at Foodstuffs. The first draft offered by Foodstuffs stated that the pay increase will be 2.5% in line with CPI. Unfortunately the CPI in Dec 05 was 3.2% It is blatent negotiation tactics like this that I object to. The general staff had no idea what inflation was/is or even where to find it out. They would have gone along with the idea and been worse off and none the wiser. In the end we settled on 3.5%. A good deal for the employer. I would have liked to see it closer to 7% but that is what you get. Bargining in good faith is good business. When I was farming I never had a deal go across the table more than twice. It is different when you are dealing with your own money and do not have the responisibilty of 100 staff and their families on your shoulders. I have been known to be the easiest in the world to deal with and a complete bastard. Depends which side your on and what the deal is. At the end of the day, business is business. I can honestly say that in the 16 years milking cows I never screwed anyone. Sometimes the deal didn't go their way, sometimes I had to take a hit but at the end of the day it was all done above board and everyone I dealt with knew exactly where I was coming from.

If you don't know where I am coming from with the roundabout theory maybe that shows how uneducated some of your comments on this thread sound.

[Finn]

If you don't know where I am coming from with the roundabout theory maybe that shows how uneducated some of your comments on this thread sound.

I'm a facts man. I don't do theory and to the best of my knowledge, don't own a roundabout.

You'll enjoy this story... A couple of weeks back, this imbreed was aimlessly driving his shitbox car and pulled out in front of me. I let him off and then without indicating, tried to push into my lane thinking I would back off. I didn't and held my ground in our gas gusling, shiney SUV. He hit the brakes and got really angry and tried to undertake me on a merging lane. I used the power of the 4.8l V8 and forced him to almost run off the road. Later, at a set of lights he pulled up beside us and got out of the car. He yelled "Do you think you own the fucken road?" to which I replied "Well if I do, I certainly own a lot more of it than you yah fucken peasant". He went nuts.

Another under achiever put in their place.

[Lou Girardin]

Cowboyz, I'm not talking about people with 2 tv's. I'm talking about people that have achieved something great. What do we do? We knock them down. Why? Because we are mostly a pathetic race of non achievers so quick to blame big business, overseas investment and SUV's.


Let's assume for a moment that 'great' equals making lots of dosh. Now name some NZ people who've done great, starting with nothing. And, just to make it interesting, they still have to reside in NZ.

[Finn]

Let's assume for a moment that 'great' equals making lots of dosh. Now name some NZ people who've done great, starting with nothing. And, just to make it interesting, they still have to reside in NZ.

Depends on what you mean by lots of dosh. According to Labour, you're rich if you earn over $40k. Anyway, assuming that "great" equals dosh, then quite a few. The problem is keeping them and their money here in NZ. Inevitably, a lot of them get sick of the place and leave, like so many people that don't even earn lots of dosh.

[The Pastor]

All fair saying that the government can cough up the change in benefits but that means that the taxpayer (yep, thats my money they are taking and don't seem to have any accountability on where they spend it) has to fork out for it while big, overseas companies post $100M profits. Why not scrap the family assistance policies and make the minimum wage something that families can get somewhere with. I am talking $500 per week in your hand to put a figure on it.


There is an economic reason why you cant just pay everyone more money. Im not by anymeans an economist, but to my way of thinking if you increased the min amount people get payed, every one else will want more, and then since company's are paying more they will rise the prices, just adding to inflation.

[cowboyz]

bollocks. To start with companies can at least conform to inflation. Secondly if min wage for workers who work for a corporation or company over xx employees was upped then these companies and their shareholders will just have to accept that the extreme profits they are making are going to be cut into.

[Finn]

bollocks. To start with companies can at least conform to inflation. Secondly if min wage for workers who work for a corporation or company over xx employees was upped then these companies and their shareholders will just have to accept that the extreme profits they are making are going to be cut into.

Yeah cause all companies make extreme profits. So when did you graduate from the School of Ideoligy?

[Ixion]

The problem with this is that the minimum wage is a very artificial construct, and does not really work.

In a market economy (I don't approve of it, but it's what we are stuck with. For the moment. ), the "minimum" wage should be set by demand for labour. There would still need to be a government set minimum , to cover special cases like workers in training, sheltered workshops etc. But the *effective* minimum, the figure that an employer could offer and have any hope of getting staff is set by supply and demand.

If a government mandated minimum is greater than this market figure, eventually the system flies apart.And , one way or another, the real minimum comes in much closer to the market figure than to the government one.

And, in NZ, the market minimum is much less that the government mandate .

And yet, even the government minimum is nowhere near sufficient for a worker to provide for a family on.

Why ?

A number of reasons. All mostly traceable to government interference, and incompetant interference at that.

Firstly, the government buyin to a low wage economy, competing with Fiji, Vietnam, China, Phillipinnes, instead of Europe.

And comcomitant total failure of the education system, which makes not even a pretence of preparing the majority of young people for a productive life.

And gross overtaxation, mainly to fund a rampant social welfare system totally out of control.

To pay for all the benefits, taxes must be high . Obviously, it is workers who must pay the bulk of them. But since wages are low, workers are left with insufficent money after tax ,even with both adults in the family working, to survive on. So, instead of reducing taxes, the government tries to bolster things up with more welfare handouts, to the workers. Thus requiring higher taxes again. So the worker is yet more heavily taxed ,in some cases (and only some) getting back a small portion of the extra tax he has paid.

In most countries (and certainly in NZ when I was young) workers earning minimum wages paid no tax . Here, they pay 20%. And in reality the tax take is far higher than that figure indicates, since NZ , once again , unlike most countries, and the NZ of my youth, provides no personal or spousal allowance to offset the tax demand.

But , you say, if the market minimum wage is lower than a survival wage, that indicates there are too many workers for not enough jobs ? Yes indeed says the Business Round Table, we must reduce wages so as to generate more jobs. OK say the government, go for it. So wages are forced down further. But, now poverty is even more widespread. So the government increases taxes to pay more benefits.

And you know what ? No matter how much you drive down wages, the promised jobs never appear.

Because , the key is IT IS NOT CORPORATIONS THAT GENERATE EMPLOYMENT in a successful economy. It is the small trader, the self employed tradesman.The entrapreneur

In successful economies, it is easy for a worker to set up in business for himself. At first, there is only him. But, if he works hard, after a bit, he can take someone on (a partner) to help him. Now there are two jobs. And thus it grows.

This does NOT happen in NZ. Why? Because in this country government interference and stupidity makes self employment, and small scale trading a living hell. So great is the bureaucracy, so intense the red tape, so many the hoops the small trader must jump through that that path is ineffective.

And the final nail in the coffin of NZ living standards? Globalisation. Our government has knowingly sold the people of this country into slavery to the multinational corporations.

[cowboyz]

I never said all companies make extreme profits. The big ones too and obviously yours does. You don't pay tax unless your making money so with a million dollars heading the governments way you are making some serious cash.
Ixion brings up another excellent point about small business, or the self employed. Raising the minimum wage is tough for the little guy. You will find that most of the time a guy who is starting out can't afford to pay higher wages (but you also find that these guys have not been in business long enough to become wankers yet and treat their empolyees better) and thats why I am an advocate for having a different min wage for companies over xxx empolyees. The ones that are seriously making money with the idea that the wage bill is just a easy way to price cut. I said it when I started working and I will say it again. You can't save money by cutting wages.

[Finn]

I never said all companies make extreme profits. The big ones too and obviously yours does. You don't pay tax unless your making money so with a million dollars heading the governments way you are making some serious cash.
Ixion brings up another excellent point about small business, or the self employed. Raising the minimum wage is tough for the little guy. You will find that most of the time a guy who is starting out can't afford to pay higher wages (but you also find that these guys have not been in business long enough to become wankers yet and treat their empolyees better) and thats why I am an advocate for having a different min wage for companies over xxx empolyees. The ones that are seriously making money with the idea that the wage bill is just a easy way to price cut. I said it when I started working and I will say it again. You can't save money by cutting wages.

You're clearly a lefty and support wealth distribution. What have you failed at in life to think like this? Get out of the dark ages man.

Can't you see the ideology in what you’re saying? NZ is already not competitive on the world stage, so here we go again, lets screw business some more. The lefties have already inflicted a system that stifles growth, both individually and with business.

The climate in NZ is too cold to grow coconuts, so we better pull our heads out of our arses if we really want to succeed.

And yet again, we have another strike. This time its the radiologists. Good one NZ.

Kiwi - the flightless bird. Very fitting.

[rogson]

A cynic would say the Unions have realised Labour's run is coming to and end and they are therefore not going to get anymore employee friendly legislation. So, in the time honoured tradition of everyman for himself - this Union is doing just that.

Watch this space.........

[terbang]

Finn your a capitalist and others are more socialist, get over it or catch the next plane out... Whilst your investment may be of some use to this country, your attitude towards other people isn't. I wonder if you would see other people differently if you were to be able to make 5 and 1/2 feet.
The progressive lockout is really about an AUSTRALIAN company that has been taking full advantage of a cheap labour market here in NZ, no doubt to the advantage of of AUSTRALIAN shareholders. They are obviously trying to make it cheaper (where do I buy some shares in them) by not negotiating with their NZ employees and locking them out. Once again an Aussie company thumps Kiwi's and they will win in some way or another. Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb. The likes of Finn then gets a bullet betwwen his eyes, rather than just a verbal attack, for shooting his mouth off about motorway ownership. He has to build a bigger fence and up his security and his costs go up. Take look at where way our crime stats are heading in sympathy to our economic profile.

[Finn]

Finn your a capitalist and others are more socialist, get over it or catch the next plane out... Whilst your investment may be of some use to this country, your attitude towards other people isn't. I wonder if you would see other people differently if you were to be able to make 5 and 1/2 feet.
The progressive lockout is really about an AUSTRALIAN company that has been taking full advantage of a cheap labour market here in NZ, no doubt to the advantage of of AUSTRALIAN shareholders. They are obviously trying to make it cheaper (where do I buy some shares in them) by not negotiating with their NZ employees and locking them out. Once again an Aussie company thumps Kiwi's and they will win in some way or another. Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb. The likes of Finn then gets a bullet betwwen his eyes, rather than just a verbal attack, for shooting his mouth off about motorway ownership. He has to build a bigger fence and up his security and his costs go up. Take look at where way our crime stats are heading in sympathy to our economic profile.

If you're going to talk market extremes, then Capitalism is the way of the world son. Either find a way to make it work for you and your family or you will suffer fighting a battle you'll never win. Socialism is just a theory and has NEVER worked in practice.

The Progressive lockout has nothing to do with Australia. It's about ideology, just like your post. Foodstuff's, the NZ Co-op pays their distribution staff a lot less. In case you aren't aware, most of NZ's large businesses are owned by Australian companies. Why? Because we don't have the skill, the knowledge and the funding to do it on our own.

Being poor in NZ is a life style choice. Saying we need to pay low life’s more money so they don't commit crime is a fool’s comment.

[ManDownUnder]

A common point of confusion is between what's desirable politically, and comercially.

Politically, it's desirable to have one person one vote - all equal blah blah blah... democracy. I'm not here to get into the merits or otherwise of the voting systems, electoral act or other ideologies...

Just remember this one thing - Demoncracy = equality of input to the running of the country

Now compare that to running a company. If everyone had equal say that company'd be fucked. It's hard enough to get 5 people to agree on most things, let alone all the complexities of running a company is it's various spheres of operation.

Not to mention the fact that people have put their time, expertise and or money into a company and rightly expect to have a say in who their money is invested.

If they don't like it, they withdraw their money and do something else with it. (Anyone else spot the parallel here... what if the workers withdrew their labour... and took it to the competition?)

On the other side of the coin, if a country was run with a mangement board in place that used the dictatorial style of a Board of Directors there would be a restrictive lifestyle, but probably highly competitive economy *can you say "Singapore"?)

[The_Dover]

*can you say "Singapore"?)

singer poor.

[ManDownUnder]

singer poor.

Nice one - now try "Far Queue"

[Ixion]

If you're going to talk market extremes, then Capitalism is the way of the world son. Either find a way to make it work for you and your family or you will suffer fighting a battle you'll never win. Socialism is just a theory and has NEVER worked in practice.
,,.

Incorrect. It worked very well in this country for 40 odd years. During which time, we had a robust economy, the highest living standard in the world, unemployment was virtually unknown, serious crime was notably rare, and we led the world on almost all the social indicators.

[ManDownUnder]

Incorrect. It worked very well in this country for 40 odd years. During which time, we had a robust economy, the highest living standard in the world, unemployment was virtually unknown, serious crime was notably rare, and we led the world on almost all the social indicators.

And then world became interconnected, air travel, internet, and it's demonstrated it's shortcomings in a competitive environment..

[Paul in NZ]

And then world became interconnected, air travel, internet, and it's demonstrated it's shortcomings in a competitive environment..

I think thats just one of the excuses offered.

My own experience was that the good times gave enough of a leg up to many people so that their children were better educated (essentially free university education like most of the current MP's) and decided they would be individually better off outside the system that was 'holding them back'. The only thing the interconnection did was allow the mass marketters to convince these selfish pricks that it was really in the countries best interest for them to have a nearly new japanese import or an Ipod.

Once the unions were destroyed it was all on and as a whole, I doubt that we are actually any better off than we were.

[Ixion]

And then world became interconnected, air travel, internet, and it's demonstrated it's shortcomings in a competitive environment..

That is a circular argument. The whole point of socialism is that it is cooperative not competative. So that is just to say that socialism had demonstrated its shortcomings as a capitalist system. Equally, I could point to the disintegration of New Zealand society and say that capitalism (or, more specifically, the globalised market economy system) has manifestly demonstrated its shortcomings in a cooperative environment. And I think that your shortcomings are worse than mine!

EDIT: BTW, we did have air travel in the 50s y'know! And BBS systems, the precursor of the WWW in the 60s

[ManDownUnder]

The only thing the interconnection did was allow the mass marketters to convince these selfish pricks that it was really in the countries best interest for them to have a nearly new japanese import or an Ipod.


In essence - yes. The marketplace went global, and with it were formed economic superpowers (EU being one of them - why bother forming up an EU if there is no advantage in having the bigger economy?)


That is a circular argument. The whole point of socialism is that it is cooperative not competative. So that is just to say that socialism had demonstrated its shortcomings as a capitalist system. Equally, I could point to the disintegration of New Zealand society and say that capitalism (or, more specifically, the globalised market economy system) has manifestly demonstrated its shortcomings in a cooperative environment. And I think that your shortcomings are worse than mine!

EDIT: BTW, we did have air travel in the 50s y'know! And BBS systems, the precursor of the WWW in the 60s

I see what you're saying and yes, capitalism will certainly polarise those with and those without, along the same lines as those who can and those who can't.

I'm lucky to be on the "those who can", thereby having more rather than less. I don't like seeing so much of my tax taken and given to "those that should" (get off their arses) and I'm fully in favour of support those who need it, not those who want it.

I've never been on the dole a day in my life, and I'm 100% certain I never will. I pay more tax annually than most people earn annualy (per Dept of Stats), and yet I'm working harder now than ever to improve my lot.

Why? Because I can, because I believe in the benefits of hard work, and because I know it's not a pie that gets sliced up such that a bigger bit for me means less for someone else. We can all have more pie. We just need to put more in to make it bigger. God knows I'm doing my bit.

I am 100% certain I'm better off socially and economically than I could have been in the '50s or 60's, and I disagree wuith your comment re air travel in the 50's and 60's. It's not so unusal for me to go to Oz for a day, or the US for 3 or 4 days. The costs of doing that in the 50's and 60's would have been prohibitive, and until the advent of the 747 in the late 60s - impractical.

BBS systems were the domain of the geeks and were rare to say the least. Telegrams and expensive (and awkaward) long distance communications were the norm.

Can you imagine finding and buying a pair of forks for your bike, unaided by anyone acting on your behalf, nationwide across the US, paying for them and having them shipped to your hotel and subsequently brought home to NZ for NZ$180, and taking a total of 45 mins of my personal time?

No - 2006 is a very very different place from 1950 and 1960. I'll don't believe your arguments to the contrary. The 50's and 60's had a different emphasis. More family, but also more cold war. 2006 is more a individual society... a global society. I'm working globally, selling globally, bringing millions of $$$ into NZ from all over the globe. My best friends (bar a few) are either in the US or Europe and I chat to them for free every day or two.

Society has simply changed.... and I don't think it's gone backwards. If family life has suffered it's because people have chosen to let it suffer. Mine hasn't.

[ManDownUnder]

So back to those poor suffering soles locked out of their employment. I wonder if any of them want to earn some money mowing lawns.

$10/hour.

[Ixion]

I see what you're saying and yes, capitalism will certainly polarise those with and those without, along the same lines as those who can and those who can't.

I'm lucky to be on the "those who can", thereby having more rather than less. I don't like seeing so much of my tax taken and given to "those that should" (get off their arses) and I'm fully in favour of support those who need it, not those who want it.

,,

It is not just a matter of those with and those without, or those who can and those who cannot. It is also a matter of those who accept or those who reject the central tenet of the capitalist system, that to survive every member of society must try his hardest to destroy every other member. A world where everyone is classified as either predator or prey is one we should have abandoned when we moved out of the jungle.

Socialism is not just the refuge of those who have not, or those who cannot. There are those who have, and can, but reject a societal model that sees others only in terms of how they can be exploited.

Arguably, the most pure form of capitalism in NZ at present, is the P "industry". Those running it are pure capitalists. The have, they can. They invest their money, and work hard to make more money.

But a society based on that model is not one that I want to be part of .

Do not ,please also, confuse socialism with welfarism. The genuine socialist is thoroughly in favour of hard work, and everybody pulling their weight.

[ManDownUnder]

It is not just a matter of those with and those without, or those who can and those who cannot. It is also a matter of those who accept or those who reject the central tenet of the capitalist system, that to survive every member of society must try his hardest to destroy every other member. A world where everyone is classified as either predator or prey is one we should have abandoned when we moved out of the jungle.

Capitalism is not about destrying others, it's about looking after ones own interests, and I argue it's in my best interests to look after those that need help, but not those that simply want help (hence my to that effect in my post above)


Socialism is not just the refuge of those who have not, or those who cannot. There are those who have, and can, but reject a societal model that sees others only in terms of how they can be exploited.

Exploitation is only possibly for those willing to be exploited. I'm not willing to, and I'm also not willing to do the exploiting.

Mine is a simple fair trade system. I offer $10/hour for anyone to do my lawns. If no-one does it, I either do them myself, let them grow, or offer more. Sounds more like market forces at work to me.

The lock out isn't exploitation. If the employer isn't playing by the rules and are exploiting the workers (per the historic grievance claim made by Ms Harry), the Union should have told it's members they'd be better off finding non exploitative work. Isn't the union there to protect the interests of the workers?

Would that warning not have been good advice?



Arguably, the most pure form of capitalism in NZ at present, is the P "industry". Those running it are pure capitalists. The have, they can. They invest their money, and work hard to make more money.

God point, well made. I also despise the US model where money is the cure and measure of everything.

If a poor man punches me and I sue him, I get $20 compensation, if Donald Trump did it I'd more liekly get $1 million... there's no sense in that! What makes one punch more expensive than the other?


But a society based on that model is not one that I want to be part of .
Me either



Do not ,please also, confuse socialism with welfarism. The genuine socialist is thoroughly in favour of hard work, and everybody pulling their weight.
Point taken - no worries

[terbang]

Saying we need to pay low life’s more money so they don't commit crime is a fool’s comment.

You said it not me. I was merely pointing out some observences in other parts of the world. Finn I am not really anti capitalist nor pro it and the same with socialist ideals. As the expert you are finn, show me some examples of capitalism or socialism really working..? I also dont judge or hold contempt for those that havn't made the same choices as me and choose to live in NZ for many reasons that you clearly overlook. Low life..? You need to expand more. Could it be a person who is loud, obnoxious and has no care or respect for anyone apart from themselves. Think back to your described motorway incident. You could have also acted in a courteous manner and given the guy some room, as confused as he was and vice versa. Instead it seems that both of you acted like a pair of morons on either end of the "LOW LIFE" spectrum.

[Finn]

You said it not me. I was merely pointing out some observences in other parts of the world. Finn I am not really anti capitalist nor pro it and the same with socialist ideals. As the expert you are finn, show me some examples of capitalism or socialism really working..? I also dont judge or hold contempt for those that havn't made the same choices as me and choose to live in NZ for many reasons that you clearly overlook. Low life..? You need to expand more. Could it be a person who is loud, obnoxious and has no care or respect for anyone apart from themselves. Think back to your described motorway incident. You could have also acted in a courteous manner and given the guy some room, as confused as he was and vice versa. Instead it seems that both of you acted like a pair of morons on either end of the "LOW LIFE" spectrum.

You said quote: "Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb."

That translates to people with no money commit crime. Crap. As I said, poverty is lifestyle choice in NZ. Major crime in NZ doesn't include people stealing food to feed their families.

As for my little incident, I have zero tollerance for drivers in this country. I don't think you'll receive too much support on KB with a "courteous" attitude towards the morons on our roads.

[Ixion]

Mine is a simple fair trade system. I offer $10/hour for anyone to do my lawns. If no-one does it, I either do them myself, let them grow, or offer more. Sounds more like market forces at work to me.



That may be fair enough, if I , as a lawnmower pusher am able to say "Your $10 per hour is inadequate. There are those willing to pay $15. Mow your own lawn". But, what if all the lawn owners for miles around have gotten together and agreed that they will pay only $5 per hour. As a lawn mower pusher, I cannot survive on $5 per hour. But I (and my fellow lawn mower pushers) cannot find work at any other figure, because of the cartel of lawn owners. So, in effect the capitalist benefit of owning the lawn is used by the capitalists to force me into poverty. Of course you may say, well, in that case give up lawn mowing and take up other work. So I give up the work I spent years training for (well, not in the case of lawn mower pushing, but you get my drift) and take up hedge trimming. Only to find that the capitalists own all the hedges , too, and have clubbed together and agreed that none of them will pay more than $4 per hour.

If we still had, as we once did, a society where shops were individually owned, each run by the owner standing behind the counter, then that would be a different matter. I would say to the worker "Well, if Grocer George will not pay enough, then leave him and take a job with Grocer Greg. If none of them , without collusion between them, think that you are worth what you want, then maybe you need to rethink your position. Or work harder. Or start your OWN grocery store". But that model is long gone, replaced by the giant corporation. And the simplistic "get a better job" is no longer a valid solution for more than a small minority.

With respect (and of course I know nothing about you) I see you equating your own position with that of the corporations. I do not think they are likely to be the same. I imagine that , in fact, you are more akin to Grocer Greg, albeit with a virtual shop counter. Providing goods or services through your own endeavours. You say "I'm working harder now than ever to improve my lot" (a sentiment with which no socialist would quibble). But do you think that any of the directors of Progressive would say "I will work harder to improve the lot of Progressive". No. they say "You work harder"

The socialist has no argument with the entrapreneur. And classically there was much movement of people between the ranks of small businessman, and worker and back again. And where that model still exists there is seldom any industrial friction. When was the last time you heard of motor mechanics going on strike? It will seldom happen because the motor mechanicing industry is still one of independant operators (people like Mr Motu, for example). If a mechanic thinks he is undervalued by his boss, he can quit and seek a job with any of the many other garages around. Or hire premises and set up for himself. And in some cases, later on, close his business and go back to working for another. These options are not available to the Progressive workers. Can any one of them set up his own grocery distribution centre. Or even his own supermarket.

And the corporation is as much the enemy of the entrapreneur as it that of the worker. How many small businesses have been ruthlessly destroyed by some giant corporation moving in on them?

[terbang]

You said quote: "Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb."



Yup exactly what I said..
But not: "we need to pay low life’s more money so they don't commit crime"
Those are your words or interpretation.
Still waiting on your wisdom with capitalism as you must know so much about it to boldly state "Capitalism is the way of the world son". And I can't wait for your expansion on what defines a "Low life"..
Or are they just rantings of a small man with a big mouth..

[Finn]

Yup exactly what I said..
But not: "we need to pay low life’s more money so they don't commit crime"
Those are your words or interpretation.
Still waiting on your wisdom with capitalism as you must know so much about it to boldly state "Capitalism is the way of the world son". And I can't wait for your expansion on what defines a "Low life"..
Or are they just rantings of a small man with a big mouth..

What do you think is happening in China and the rest of Asia? As for low life's, try watching the news tonight.

So how many posters of Helen Clark and Stalin do you have around your house?

[terbang]

So how many posters of Helen Clark and Stalin do you have around your house?

Uncle Joe's also in the family album..

[ManDownUnder]

That may be fair enough, if I , as a lawnmower pusher am able to say "Your $10 per hour is inadequate. There are those willing to pay $15. Mow your own lawn". But, what if all the lawn owners for miles around have gotten together and agreed that they will pay only $5 per hour.

Let their grass grow, stop mowing lawns and find something else to do that pays better.


As a lawn mower pusher, I cannot survive on $5 per hour. But I (and my fellow lawn mower pushers) cannot find work at any other figure, because of the cartel of lawn owners. So, in effect the capitalist benefit of owning the lawn is used by the capitalists to force me into poverty. Of course you may say, well, in that case give up lawn mowing and take up other work. So I give up the work I spent years training for (well, not in the case of lawn mower pushing, but you get my drift) and take up hedge trimming. Only to find that the capitalists own all the hedges , too, and have clubbed together and agreed that none of them will pay more than $4 per hour.


And still I say - stop mowing lawns and find something that pays better. I (as the owner of the lawn) may not find anyone willing to mow my lawns for $5/hour at which point I either let them grow, or mow them myself.

They're my lawns - it's my choice.

Turn the example on it's head, what if every restaurant in town started charging a minimum $80/plate? Think they'd be in business long? I don;t owe them the money for the right to dine at their establishment - I have the right to refuise their services and do whatever the hell I want.

Society at large owes me nothing... nothing... it's up to me to find something valuable to contribute.


If we still had, as we once did, a society where shops were individually owned, each run by the owner standing behind the counter, then that would be a different matter. I would say to the worker "Well, if Grocer George will not pay enough, then leave him and take a job with Grocer Greg. If none of them , without collusion between them, think that you are worth what you want, then maybe you need to rethink your position. Or work harder. Or start your OWN grocery store". But that model is long gone, replaced by the giant corporation. And the simplistic "get a better job" is no longer a valid solution for more than a small minority.


I disagree. The small shop has plenty to offer and commands loyalty from some locals, as well as having the ability to manoeuvre (I hate speling that word) around the giants. The simple thing is to give the shoppers what they want.

In time of falling house prices, people want to sell... get out of the housing market. That (of course) is the best time to buy - give them what they want... money

If people want cheap goods, let them go to the WalMarts etc, I wouldn't dream of competing with them - why take them head on - that's dumb. Find a niche and stick to it. Look in overseas magazines (free from the library for those of you with no money) and see what you think would sell in NZ.

Learn about the industry (again, info free from the library, and newspapers - in said library). Then go knock on some doors... see if you can sell them.

Don't sit there in a hovel. Go look for a job.


With respect (and of course I know nothing about you) I see you equating your own position with that of the corporations. I do not think they are likely to be the same. I imagine that , in fact, you are more akin to Grocer Greg, albeit with a virtual shop counter. Providing goods or services through your own endeavours. You say "I'm working harder now than ever to improve my lot" (a sentiment with which no socialist would quibble). But do you think that any of the directors of Progressive would say "I will work harder to improve the lot of Progressive". No. they say "You work harder"

No - the directors will work harder to maximise the returns to those that have invested in the company and require a return - or those investors move their money, the corporate bastards go out of business, and they have to sack everyone who will call them... corporate bastards.

The workers have a similar choice, they work in a simple transactional environment. I give you this work, you give me that cash. Any time the equation changes the proposition gets re-evaluated... just as it is right now.

If I was working their, I'd be looking for work, sweeping the streets, polishing bikes... whatever it took to put food on the table until I found security somewhere else.


The socialist has no argument with the entrapreneur. And classically there was much movement of people between the ranks of small businessman, and worker and back again. And where that model still exists there is seldom any industrial friction. When was the last time you heard of motor mechanics going on strike? It will seldom happen because the motor mechanicing industry is still one of independant operators (people like Mr Motu, for example). If a mechanic thinks he is undervalued by his boss, he can quit and seek a job with any of the many other garages around. Or hire premises and set up for himself. And in some cases, later on, close his business and go back to working for another. These options are not available to the Progressive workers. Can any one of them set up his own grocery distribution centre. Or even his own supermarket.

Yes. Plan ahead, plow up your back lawn, plant the bastard in... potatoes, and sell them fresh, delivered to the dor, pre-cooked... whatever.

But yes. I prefer to think in terms of how something can be done. Yes it's hard, and yes many things are not going to work, so sit back, look and learn before comitting effort into a venture, but then when you do step, do it properly.

There is always opportunity. People are inherantly lazy. Do something for them, they'll pay you for it. Maybe not as much as you want - in which case do something else.



And the corporation is as much the enemy of the entrapreneur as it that of the worker. How many small businesses have been ruthlessly destroyed by some giant corporation moving in on them?
a lot, and yes I know - I happen to be starting a small business in NZ right now (que the plug... www.newwater.co.nz (http://www.newwater.co.nz))

Trust me - I know...

[Ixion]

And still I say - stop mowing lawns and find something that pays better. I (as the owner of the lawn) may not find anyone willing to mow my lawns for $5/hour at which point I either let them grow, or mow them myself.

They're my lawns - it's my choice.


Which is exactly the union position. They say "Very well. You, the lawn owners have banded together and refuse to pay more than $5 per hour. We , the lawn mower pushers, could simply give up and go and find other work. But why should we give up the careers we have worked and trained for, just because you want to make more profit. No, we have taken a leaf out of your book. We TOO have banded together. And none of us will work for less tha $20. You will find that you need us as much as we need you.What is sauce for the corporate goose is sauce for the worker gander."

I could go on at great length about the philosophical debate about priviledged elites (corporations, not you) de facto appropriating resources that are in reality the property of the whole of society. But that is a whole other argument.



Turn the example on it's head, what if every restaurant in town started charging a minimum $80/plate? Think they'd be in business long? I don;t owe them the money for the right to dine at their establishment - I have the right to refuise their services and do whatever the hell I want.

Society at large owes me nothing... nothing... it's up to me to find something valuable to contribute.



Restaurants are not a good example , though. They are like my garages. When did you last hear of a waiters' strike. Entry level to the industry is low, workers can readily change jobs.

By the same logic - why should it be assumed that society owes large corporations anything?



I disagree. The small shop has plenty to offer and commands loyalty from some locals, as well as having the ability to manoeuvre (I hate speling that word) around the giants. The simple thing is to give the shoppers what they want.


That is all very well, but I have experience in such trade. I can assure you that if you are running a small shop, and one of the giants decides they want you out of business , for whatever reason, they will simply "run you out of town". You will find that your suppliers will no longer be "able" to supply. The goods you sell, you will find the local Giant Store is running on super duper special (it costs Giant Corp nothing, since they simply demand an equivalent rebate from the supplier). You will be driven out of business very fast




If people want cheap goods, let them go to the WalMarts etc, I wouldn't dream of competing with them - why take them head on - that's dumb. Find a niche and stick to it. Look in overseas magazines (free from the library for those of you with no money) and see what you think would sell in NZ.


Your niche market business however, relies on staying small enough to keep under the radar of the corporates. If it becoimes profitable enough to attract them, or dent their sales, you will be run off the ranch (see above). And there are , by definition, only a limited number of niches.



No - the directors will work harder to maximise the returns to those that have invested in the company and require a return - or those investors move their money, the corporate bastards go out of business, and they have to sack everyone who will call them... corporate bastards.



That one is too lengthy to reply to here. Suffice it to say that Keynes disproved the theory in the 1930s




There is always opportunity. People are inherantly lazy. Do something for them, they'll pay you for it. Maybe not as much as you want - in which case do something else.



Not if the economy has been so reduced to a subsitence level that even the lazy cannot afford to pay you (or anyone else). That is what happened the last time capitalism had a free hand . The Great Depression. Nobody could sell anything because noone had any money because noone had a job because noone was selling anything no noone needed anything made because noone had any money - rinse lather repeat. See Keynes, above

The market economy , by definition, requires the existence of a free market. But the entire nature of the global corporate is to stifle market forces. It depends not on a market economy , but on a monopoly.

[ManDownUnder]

Which is exactly the union position. They say "Very well. You, the lawn owners have banded together and refuse to pay more than $5 per hour. We , the lawn mower pushers, could simply give up and go and find other work. But why should we give up the careers we have worked and trained for, just because you want to make more profit. No, we have taken a leaf out of your book. We TOO have banded together. And none of us will work for less tha $20. You will find that you need us as much as we need you.What is sauce for the corporate goose is sauce for the worker gander."

I could go on at great length about the philosophical debate about priviledged elites (corporations, not you) de facto appropriating resources that are in reality the property of the whole of society. But that is a whole other argument.



Restaurants are not a good example , though. They are like my garages. When did you last hear of a waiters' strike. Entry level to the industry is low, workers can readily change jobs.

By the same logic - why should it be assumed that society owes large corporations anything?



That is all very well, but I have experience in such trade. I can assure you that if you are running a small shop, and one of the giants decides they want you out of business , for whatever reason, they will simply "run you out of town". You will find that your suppliers will no longer be "able" to supply. The goods you sell, you will find the local Giant Store is running on super duper special (it costs Giant Corp nothing, since they simply demand an equivalent rebate from the supplier). You will be driven out of business very fast



Your niche market business however, relies on staying small enough to keep under the radar of the corporates. If it becoimes profitable enough to attract them, or dent their sales, you will be run off the ranch (see above). And there are , by definition, only a limited number of niches.



That one is too lengthy to reply to here. Suffice it to say that Keynes disproved the theory in the 1930s



Not if the economy has been so reduced to a subsitence level that even the lazy cannot afford to pay you (or anyone else). That is what happened the last time capitalism had a free hand . The Great Depression. Nobody could sell anything because noone had any money because noone had a job because noone was selling anything no noone needed anything made because noone had any money - rinse lather repeat. See Keynes, above

The market economy , by definition, requires the existence of a free market. But the entire nature of the global corporate is to stifle market forces. It depends not on a market economy , but on a monopoly.

you and I need to discuss this over a beer... I can see many glazed over looks happening in our vicinity but it will be a fun conversation for me.

Spankme probably has to pay for server space and we're really not helping his cause...

:niceone:

[mstriumph]

You said quote: "Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb."

That translates to people with no money commit crime. Crap. As I said, poverty is lifestyle choice in NZ. Major crime in NZ doesn't include people stealing food to feed their families....................

my one overwhelming wonder, when walking around the palace of versailles, was not that the french revolted but why it took them so long
..............

it outraged MY sense of justice that so much conspicuous, profligate consumption should be flaunted in the faces of the relative poverty which existed in pre-revolutionary france .....

personally, i am respectful of the rights and property of others but, had i lived then, my outrage may well have translated into direct remedial action.

from your own version of "Let them eat cake" in this thread, Finn, i suspect that there'll be a starring role reserved for you and other like-minded, uncharitable, self-absorbed individuals, comes the revolution....

:sunny: and i don't even LIKE the french ..........

[Paul in NZ]

:sunny: and i don't even LIKE the french ..........

Who does???

[Finn]

from your own version of "Let them eat cake" in this thread, Finn, i suspect that there'll be a starring role reserved for you and other like-minded, uncharitable, self-absorbed individuals, comes the revolution....

:sunny: and i don't even LIKE the french ..........

Sounds perfect for me. When do I start and what's the pay like? I'll sort this friggen country out yet. Bunch of bloody slackers.

[The_Dover]

Did somebody mention cake?

[The Pastor]

The problem with this is that the minimum wage is a very artificial construct, and does not really work.

In a market economy (I don't approve of it, but it's what we are stuck with. For the moment. ), the "minimum" wage should be set by demand for labour. There would still need to be a government set minimum , to cover special cases like workers in training, sheltered workshops etc. But the *effective* minimum, the figure that an employer could offer and have any hope of getting staff is set by supply and demand.

If a government mandated minimum is greater than this market figure, eventually the system flies apart.And , one way or another, the real minimum comes in much closer to the market figure than to the government one.

And, in NZ, the market minimum is much less that the government mandate .

And yet, even the government minimum is nowhere near sufficient for a worker to provide for a family on.

Why ?

A number of reasons. All mostly traceable to government interference, and incompetant interference at that.

Firstly, the government buyin to a low wage economy, competing with Fiji, Vietnam, China, Phillipinnes, instead of Europe.

And comcomitant total failure of the education system, which makes not even a pretence of preparing the majority of young people for a productive life.

And gross overtaxation, mainly to fund a rampant social welfare system totally out of control.

To pay for all the benefits, taxes must be high . Obviously, it is workers who must pay the bulk of them. But since wages are low, workers are left with insufficent money after tax ,even with both adults in the family working, to survive on. So, instead of reducing taxes, the government tries to bolster things up with more welfare handouts, to the workers. Thus requiring higher taxes again. So the worker is yet more heavily taxed ,in some cases (and only some) getting back a small portion of the extra tax he has paid.

In most countries (and certainly in NZ when I was young) workers earning minimum wages paid no tax . Here, they pay 20%. And in reality the tax take is far higher than that figure indicates, since NZ , once again , unlike most countries, and the NZ of my youth, provides no personal or spousal allowance to offset the tax demand.


Because , the key is IT IS NOT CORPORATIONS THAT GENERATE EMPLOYMENT in a successful economy. It is the small trader, the self employed tradesman.The entrapreneur

In successful economies, it is easy for a worker to set up in business for himself. At first, there is only him. But, if he works hard, after a bit, he can take someone on (a partner) to help him. Now there are two jobs. And thus it grows.



I like the idea of min wage workers not paying tax. Would that include GST, Petrol tax rates and all the other taxes you get taxed on? One downfall would be people would not want to get off the min wage? Companys wouldnt promote (in terms of money) if they get some sort of tax benifit for employing min wage workers? As an entrapreneur type person, I find what your saying to be pretty spot on. (the reason im in uni now is because its hard to start up a bussiness and want to have a qual I can fall back on when/if I fail) I don't think nz has screwed it up to the point of no return though. Its just more challengeing.


I never said all companies make extreme profits. The big ones too and obviously yours does. You don't pay tax unless your making money so with a million dollars heading the governments way you are making some serious cash.
Ixion brings up another excellent point about small business, or the self employed. Raising the minimum wage is tough for the little guy. You will find that most of the time a guy who is starting out can't afford to pay higher wages (but you also find that these guys have not been in business long enough to become wankers yet and treat their empolyees better) and thats why I am an advocate for having a different min wage for companies over xxx empolyees. The ones that are seriously making money with the idea that the wage bill is just a easy way to price cut. I said it when I started working and I will say it again. You can't save money by cutting wages.
Thats a silly Idea, min wage never works. Ever.

[Scouse]

Let's assume for a moment that 'great' equals making lots of dosh. Now name some NZ people who've done great, starting with nothing. And, just to make it interesting, they still have to reside in NZ.Graham Heart

[k14]

If that's the case then why are there so many university educated people working in gas stations & at supermarkets? Or worse, fucking off overseas! Why is it that some folk who never even got school C are in high paid managment jobs? It's not what you know, it's whose arse you lick!
Well that would be assuming having a university education means you had to work for it. I bet you anything you wouldn't find an engineering grad working at a petrol station, only graduates of "other" departments (who will go unnamed).

[Lou Girardin]

Graham Heart

That's one. (and it's spelt Hart)
Next?

[terbang]

Graham Heart

I think Peter Jackson also started from a fairly humble background as well.

Jeez Steve have you had a hair cut or something..? You look a bit different on your latest Avatar...

[Pixie]

Finn your a capitalist and others are more socialist, get over it or catch the next plane out... Whilst your investment may be of some use to this country, your attitude towards other people isn't. I wonder if you would see other people differently if you were to be able to make 5 and 1/2 feet.
The progressive lockout is really about an AUSTRALIAN company that has been taking full advantage of a cheap labour market here in NZ, no doubt to the advantage of of AUSTRALIAN shareholders. They are obviously trying to make it cheaper (where do I buy some shares in them) by not negotiating with their NZ employees and locking them out. Once again an Aussie company thumps Kiwi's and they will win in some way or another. Kiwi labour gets poorer and as time goes by poor people can eventually become more desperate and whether it be jealusy or survival it makes little difference as our crime rates climb. The likes of Finn then gets a bullet betwwen his eyes, rather than just a verbal attack, for shooting his mouth off about motorway ownership. He has to build a bigger fence and up his security and his costs go up. Take look at where way our crime stats are heading in sympathy to our economic profile.

But Clark will save us with "the knowledge economy"

And to start with NZ schools have been instructed to be economical with knowledge.

[scumdog]

My 2 cent worth:A Harley dealership has opened in Russia for the first time in 70+ years. (and HOG has started there too)

What the hell has that got to do with this thread you think.

Well, it is an indication that this world (well the developing part) is slowly but surely drifting into a stage where we ALL end up with an equal level of income/living standard.

You buy $5 jeans from the Big Red Barn? What do you think happened to the factory and workers that use to make/sell them in NZ for $10??

Just an example.

[Lou Girardin]

I think Peter Jackson also started from a fairly humble background as well.

Jeez Steve have you had a hair cut or something..? You look a bit different on your latest Avatar...

Lives in NZ?

[Finn]

You buy $5 jeans from the Big Red Barn? What do you think happened to the factory and workers that use to make/sell them in NZ for $10??

They become MP's and spend their time seeking revenge on anyboby who appears to be trying to make a buck.

[terbang]

Lives in NZ?

Yeah he does, though he has digs elsewhere.

[SPman]

Goblin[/b]
If that's the case then why are there so many university educated people working in gas stations & at supermarkets? Or worse, fucking off overseas! Why is it that some folk who never even got school C are in high paid managment jobs? It's not what you know, it's whose arse you lick!
Some people have a natural ability to find and seize opportunities and make money. It's irrespective of how much formal education they may have or their IQ levels.They're just good at it. Its got nothing to do, often, with arse licking and everything to do with their own personal hard wiring.

A lot of university educated people after coming out with a degree, spending shitloads of money and the time involved, despite all their knowledge, find it hard to even tie their own shoelaces, let alone find a job. or make money. Its not what you know - its how you can really use what you know and most people can't.

But, then again , who gives a toss..........

[Drunken Monkey]

...A lot of university educated people after coming out with a degree, spending shitloads of money and the time involved, despite all their knowledge, find it hard to even tie their own shoelaces, let alone find a job. or make money. Its not what you know - its how you can really use what you know and most people can't...

I think that's a 'recent' phenomenon, part of the "Education = Meal Ticket" mentality, the breaking down of academic institutes as elitest, etc. I think too many people go into Universities with the attitude of geek out and learn the lectures then ace the exams and call it a day. There was as much to learn about life from varsity in participating in pub crawls, capping stunts, getting stoned in the lower common room, throwing up at a toga party and skyving off in general - stuff that just doesn't happen as regularly as it used to. People may laugh at those examples, but if you hang with the right people, you can make aquaintances for life which also become useful business allies in future - possible new boss for when you want to ditch a job, someone to start up a new business with you, heck, someone to work for you who you know and trust when you need more staff.

[Goblin]

But, then again , who gives a toss..........

Not I....I'd be happy going bush!

[SPman]

Not I....I'd be happy going bush!
I have!.....

[chanceyy]

The progressive lockout is really about an AUSTRALIAN company that has been taking full advantage of a cheap labour market here in NZ, no doubt to the advantage of of AUSTRALIAN shareholders.

this is correct more info from the front line ..

the three distribution centres ended up being on seperate collectives several yrs ago when they were moved .. last negotiations it was agreed to that all three distribution centres would be on the same collective .. in the mean time it has been sold to Progressive who are totally Australian owed (who pay their own distribution staff $22 per hour) wanting to keep cost here low so the company and ultimately Aussie Shareholders make more money

Palmerston North have the best collective (still in effect from 3 or so yrs ago) & these guys are not locked out to get more money ... all they want is to make sure their collegues from both Auckland & Christchurch are covered by the same collective & are paid the same .. they are currently paid between .80cents & $2.50 per hour less than their Palmerston North counterparts. These Guys have the most to lose in this ..

The differences in allowances resulted from progressive closing the Auckland & Chch Woolworths distribution centres in 2003 & then rehiring of the redundant workers on worse conditions. Those closures ended the Woolworths National Agreement. The only reason PN retained that contract was because the company could not find another location for a new distribution centre & therefore could not legally rehire workers on lower rates

This is not a strike .. as soon as they left the meeting after deciding to strike they were issued with suspensions .... so effectively it was immediately a lock out by progressive .. progressive are trying to stave their workers back to work on their terms, & they are trying to bust up the union movement but have not counted on the community spirit & support. Yes some guys have been forced back to work & accepted the companies terms .. which now they have no support or security on the job ... sad sad sad

Just remember Woolworths Australia is the largest retailer in Australasia & recently announced a 24.3% increase in profits of $1.2 billion (A$1.1 billion) & expects sales to increase by 8-12% next yr ...

With regards to Progressive stating that the workers/union are claiming a 30% increase is bollocks ... basically the workers are just wanting to have one agreement covering all three sites .. & to bring the auckland & chch workers to the same level as the palmy workers .. & cost of living is a damn sight higher in both other centres ..


after reading all posts in here .. some of you need to have a reality check .. go and find out what its about ...

I thank my lucky stars cause I could have been in this position .. as we have 3 sites across NZ & got all on a collective .. whew

& yes I am a union delegate .. & damn proud of it ... I have worked hard to form a great working relationship with management & our HR department .. its called mutal respect & working to a same goal, & being rewarded for working hard & being treated with dignity

[Lou Girardin]

& yes I am a union delegate .. & damn proud of it ... I have worked hard to form a great working relationship with management & our HR department .. its called mutal respect & working to a same goal, & being rewarded for working hard & being treated with dignity

God forbid that this catches on. Dignity and respect for wage slaves, whatever next?
Well said.

[chanceyy]

God forbid that this catches on. Dignity and respect for wage slaves, whatever next?
Well said.

Thanks Lou


but really whats behind it .. How many large Aussie corporations are in NZ .. trying to keep their costs down and pay poorly ..& where are their profits spent .. not here

hmmm this brings to mind same situation in china .. called sweatshops .. is it not ??

do we really want this for NZ .. I for sure don't .....

[WINJA]

Nz Is Australias Mexico

[Ixion]

Perceptive, and correct

[Lou Girardin]

This is the ultimate result of the New Right idealogues 'trickle down' theory.
The corporates piss on the workers.

[Skyryder]

Thanks Lou


but really whats behind it .. How many large Aussie corporations are in NZ .. trying to keep their costs down and pay poorly ..& where are their profits spent .. not here

hmmm this brings to mind same situation in china .. called sweatshops .. is it not ??

do we really want this for NZ .. I for sure don't .....

It's the result of market forces. This all embracing ideology that places overses corperations and their interests ahead of the New Zealand interests.

Was coming back from the States a few years back and was sitting next to a retired American financier. This was in the time of the Lange Government their 2nd term. He put it this way. "If the New Zealand economy was a sixteen year old virgin she was being raped by the 'bover boys.' "

We have been ganged banged, raped and pillaged, and the masochists that we are, there are many, who applaud what has happened to the New Zealand infranstructure.

We have not only lost our political control but also our economic.

We are continulay fed spin by Parliments washing machines where ideology dictates political decisions and and common sense is flushed down the drain with soap suds.
THERE IS NOT ONE MARKET REFORM THAT HAS WORKED FOR NEW ZEALAND. Not one. Health's nothing but a fiasco, transport a shambles, education fuck where once you went to Uni to learn Latin and Greek Latin now they have remedial reading lessons in English.

The radiograpohers strike is for pay parity. If there was a National award system like theirr use to be this strike would not be happening. That's what you get for 'dumb progress.'

I heard on the news the other day that Kiwi Bank has returned a profit to the Governmet of $29,000000 and both National and ACT are on record as saying that they would sell Kiwi Bank.

Clark and her lot seem to be missing some ethics but don't go and tell me that National has New Zealands interest at heart............that just bullshit.

Skyryder

[terbang]

Nz Is Australias Mexico
We have been called the Pakistanis of Australasia..!

[Lou Girardin]

I remember how we were going to be the Switzerland of the South Pacific.
How the Thatcherites praised us to the skies for our economic 'bravery'. (But they didn't copy us)
We were and are just naive people living in an isolated country who swallow every piece of drivel we're fed.
Our Italian tutor said the other night that he's amazed how we don't get passionate about anything except rugby. He said that if they tried labour reform, ala the 1990's Ruthenasia, in France or Italy, people would die in the riots that ensued. Yet we take any abuse and ask for more.
Why?

[Quasievil]

Nz Is Australias Mexico

Dum comment of the week award goes to ................

[Ixion]

In what way is it dum? It seems to me to be both perceptive, and to reasonably well summarise the relative economic positions of the two countries.

Granted, there has been much less direct industrial investment than in the US-Mexico nexus, but that is simply a result of the different rules of the respective governments. In NZ, they don't even have to build a factory.

I don't think it's a dum comment at all.

[Finn]

Yip WINJA is correct. I'm pretty hard and critical of NZ myself, but this just about sums it up perfectly.

It's just a shame we can't grow coconuts. Otherwise we could all just relax, sit back and do nothing. Oh hang on, that's what we do...

[oldrider]

The strikers are just a bunch of dumb losers, dancing to Lila Hari's tune, which is just so yesterday, it's a joke!

Labour is on the ropes (Corrupt and bereft of talent) and the Unions are sensing their impending loss at (or before) the next election, so they are trying to make the most of what time they have left.

New Zealand voters should be seriously considering the consequences of the next general election!

Like who are they going to be screwed by next!!! It is not a rugby team that you have to elect to office!

This is a serious situation, so "think about it" seriously! :shit: John.

[Ixion]

For the record: I usually make a particular point of not moderating in threads where I am involved. However, in the interests of not having this degenerate into a squabble I have moved a post containing irrelevant and offtopic personal aspersions into PD.It can be found in the PD Pointless drivel post for anyone interested

[WINJA]

For the record: I usually make a particular point of not moderating in threads where I am involved. However, in the interests of not having this degenerate into a squabble I have moved a post containing irrelevant and offtopic personal aspersions into PD.It can be found in the PD Pointless drivel post for anyone interested

SO WHY DIDNT YOU REMOVE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM BY TAKING QUASIS POST THERE WHERE IT BELONGED , SO THAT CUNT CAN SLING SHIT AT ME AND WHEN I JUSTIFYABLY RETALIATE I GET CENSORED

[chanceyy]

The strikers are just a bunch of dumb losers,

This is a serious situation, so "think about it" seriously! :shit: John.

John John John ... they are not strikers .. nor have they had the opportunity to be strikers .... they are LOCKED OUT .. two completely seperate situations muh dear ..

Yes it is a serious situation .. are we going to allow Aussie corporations to claw back workers rights .. ?? I farken hope not ..

[oldrider]

John John John ... they are not strikers .. nor have they had the opportunity to be strikers .... they are LOCKED OUT .. two completely seperate situations muh dear ..

Yes it is a serious situation .. are we going to allow Aussie corporations to claw back workers rights .. ?? I farken hope not ..

Sweetheart, what is the name of the thread?

I take your point but who fired the first shot? Question only, not a provocative comment. :shutup: John.

[chanceyy]

Sweetheart, what is the name of the thread?

I take your point but who fired the first shot? Question only, not a provocative comment. :shutup: John.


yes muh dear I know it says strike .. but make no mistake it is a lock out ..

.. but the first shot .. guess that would be progressive when they would not honor a clause in the previous negotiations & written in that a collective would be sorted for this round ... after all we would hate the workers to be organised & strong,& being Aussie their conditions are not that flash at present .. heaven forbid if we give the workers better conditions

[Timber020]

Firstly name a nation that you would rather live in, since NZ is so bad. We are small. We only have so many resources and we dont bend ourselves over a desk every time the US wanders in and smiles at us.

We do alot of things wrong, but pick somewhere better. I have travelled and have alot of friends overseas, and in all honesty, things are much more fucked, corrupt and at least to me, unappealing than what they are here.

3 million, small isolated nation, we arent going to be a financial superpower any time soon.

[chanceyy]

Firstly name a nation that you would rather live in, since NZ is so bad. We are small. We only have so many resources and we dont bend ourselves over a desk every time the US wanders in and smiles at us.

We do alot of things wrong, but pick somewhere better. I have travelled and have alot of friends overseas, and in all honesty, things are much more fucked, corrupt and at least to me, unappealing than what they are here.

3 million, small isolated nation, we arent going to be a financial superpower any time soon.

I have to agree Timber .. after living in the states for a yr prior to sept 11 ..& how stuffed up they are ... things here are not as bad as there .. but without forthought it could be .. & we have quite a few major overseas corporations in NZ now ... fortunately the Merger our company was investigating did not go through ..was going to be with an Aussie co ... our shareholders would have missed out .. & here we go common thread Aussie shareholders smiling again

My thought is that we have escaped by the seat of our pants ..

[oldrider]

yes muh dear .. but the first shot .. guess that would be progressive when they would not honor a clause in the previous negotiations & written in that a collective would be sorted for this round ... after all we would hate the workers to be organised & strong,& being Aussie their conditions are not that flash at present .. heaven forbid if we give the workers better conditions

I respect the fact that more than enough workers in NZ suffer effects of piss poor management.

I for one found that individual employment contracts gave both the direct manager and employee a far better opportunity to build a relationship much more satisfactory to both parties than any collective ever could.

Too many managers/employers/employees in NZ lost a great opportunity to build happy productive employment places where everybody looked forward to time at work, their time at home and their time at play!

Utopia, why not? I have been involved in all of the phases in the work place and I believe as a manager I was the most effective union delegate I have ever known and I was very proud of that.

Respect builds respect and there is no need to be unhappy in your place of work, after all it is at least one third of your day, or even one third of your life for that matter, why would you want to let anyone else stuff that up?

It's a damn shame really, too many people just go to work to eat their lunch and Lila Hari's antic are not going to change that one iota!

Unions are like rabbit boards and churches, no rabbits, no sinners, no business and managers and employers are too bloody lazy and stupid to realise that they are giving away the relationship with their most important asset (Their workers) to the unions without as much as a wimper.

The whole country suffers as a result of this ridiculous situation and the Labour party condones and encourages it for the backing of the union dollars that the poor bloody workers pay to them to ultimately stuff up their lives.

Oh I better get off to bed, I don't sleep well after reading things like this thread! :shit: Cheers John.

[Lou Girardin]

Sweetheart, what is the name of the thread?

I take your point but who fired the first shot? Question only, not a provocative comment. :shutup: John.

If you consider negotiating in good faith as "firing the first shot', I guess the workers did.
But it IS a locout.
Do you remember 1951?

[Quasievil]

SO WHY DIDNT YOU REMOVE THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM BY TAKING QUASIS POST THERE WHERE IT BELONGED , SO THAT CUNT CAN SLING SHIT AT ME AND WHEN I JUSTIFYABLY RETALIATE I GET CENSORED

That was hardly warranted Winja, I just thought your comment was dum, considering Ive spent alot of time in those countries you compared us to.
Are you the only one that can disagree with another persons post?
either way your coment was OTT, because Im not a cunt. Its good to see though that you are pulling your head in a bit in relation to abusing members, maybe youve learnt your lesson?

Anyway, I cant see NZ being considered as a low cost manuafacturing country such as Mexico, I cant see any real similiarities at all. And Australia, is not that much different to NZ infact in many ways they are not as developed as NZ when in comes to things like the employee contracts, unions dominate there far greater than in NZ, also on a PAYE basis they pay alot more tax, so the comparision to NZ being the Mexico of Australia is dum.
If your comparing USA to Mexico socially and economically, politically
in the same way to Aussie and NZ, your way off track in my opinion, if Im allowed one

[Clockwork]

Thanks Lou


but really whats behind it .. How many large Aussie corporations are in NZ .. trying to keep their costs down and pay poorly ..& where are their profits spent .. not here

hmmm this brings to mind same situation in china .. called sweatshops .. is it not ??

do we really want this for NZ .. I for sure don't .....

This is the "foreign investment" that so many of our politicians seem to think is important for our economy, I don't understand why myself.

[GN1NiteStnd]

The strikes havent really directly affected were i work (Gull), expect for a couple of empty shelves. Sometimes we can pick up extra shifts from countdown, but we are not allowed to do this at the moment, cause of the crossing the strike line thing. Coutdown strikes havent actually happened yet of course, but apparantely it will.

[Paul in NZ]

I respect the fact that more than enough workers in NZ suffer effects of piss poor management.

I for one found that individual employment contracts gave both the direct manager and employee a far better opportunity to build a relationship much more satisfactory to both parties than any collective ever could.
Cheers John.

I agree, but unfortunately, most workers don't get the chance to negotiate anything.

No matter what the law says, if you are at the bottom of the pile and as talented as all get out there is zero chance of negotiating anything - it's take it or leave it.

I have been involved in all sorts of interesting situations regarding this type of arrangement and collective agreements are the best bet for this type of job. Individually, you WILL get screwed.

I don't understand why we always compare ourselves to off shore economies?

This is New Zealand. We can do things our own way, we don't need to be like (god forbid) america or england or anything else. Its a bloody grouse place to live and it was made so on the backs of all the 'little' people doing jobs many people here would turn their noses up at.

Look, we go on about the tall poppy syndrome etc, bollocks, it does not exist. Kiwis love to see people do well if they earn it by being clever or hardworking and are still decent folks. Shit, they even love people that win Lotto. The tall poppies are bloody dorks that have some sort of attention seeking trait that made em rich (usually by shitting on someone else or doing something dodgy) and then they get all bloody smug and preachy about it and surprise surprise, they get hammered. Quite rightly and it happens everywhere. Christ, would you praise those wanker americas cup sailors that jumped ship?? screw them.

CONVERSELY, there are people who are happy with smaller lives, they don't need, want or desire massive riches, they just want to lead a life with a regular pay packet, enough comfort and some spare coin. Often they are quite aware of their limitations and are perfectly happy. They don't need Donald trumps life and wouldn't have it if you gave it to them.... The problem is, the Donald Trumps don't like that because they think they are so damn special everyone wants to be them... NO THEY DON'T.

These 'little' people have a hard won right to organise themselves into a union to collectively protect what they see as thei rights. They are legally entitled to do so and in this particular case, from what I have read they are being treated shamefully by a foreign company.

Whats bloody wrong with you people? Are you so used to being pushed around by that gay cow and her high school teacher bullies you all lost your friggin balls?? (if so, benson pope has some for ya) These folks are within their hard earned rights and not asking for much and are prepared to suffer for a principle and I admire them for having the guts to do it 'cos it is NOT an easy thing to do. They are your fellow Kiwis and they might just be right and I say support them even if you don't 100% agree with em, screw progressive cos if it comes to a fight, who are you backing, the local guy or the multi national? Go the little guys, stick up for yourselves and I know where i'm shopping until this is done.

Paul N

New Zealander and bloody proud of it.

[placidfemme]

*admitidly hasn't read this thread yet*

All for the cause!

I'm just sad cause my local shop is out of V's... its a sad sad day

[oldrider]

If you consider negotiating in good faith as "firing the first shot', I guess the workers did.
But it IS a locout.
Do you remember 1951?

Yes I do remember 1951, I would only have been around about twelve years old but you would have to have been pretty thick not to have known what was going on, even at my age.

Lockout is now as legal as "strike" action provided all has been done within the law, I think the strikers next move is to contest the legality of the lockout.

If the lockout is proved to be legal, then the strikers are in for a long lean existence, will it be worth it? What will thay gain?

Will Lila Hari share the pain? I doubt it, she will just loose face a little and in that, she hasn't got too much to sacrifice! Hers is a lost cause in my opinion.

I have never seen anything good come out of this sort of action, it is a no win, no brain situation for everyone, whatever side you are on. :mellow: John.

[mstriumph]

Originally Posted by mstriumph

from your own version of "Let them eat cake" in this thread, Finn, i suspect that there'll be a starring role reserved for you and other like-minded, uncharitable, self-absorbed individuals, comes the revolution....

and i don't even LIKE the french ..........


Sounds perfect for me. When do I start and what's the pay like? I'll sort this friggen country out yet. Bunch of bloody slackers.

...... was actually thinking of you being drawn on high in the tumbrills, en route to Madame Guilliotine

........... some starring roles are best avoided :yes:

[chanceyy]

I visited the picket line today .. & the groundswell of support has blown away these guys .. however as posted below they need more support ..

One of the issues came out yesterday when we had three of the locked out workers come to talk to us ..

One of the locked out workers wife was made redundant from her job on the same day her hubby was suspended, they have two kids who are due to have birthdays within the next two weeks

One wants to have a party at the local Lido .. the other wanted her hair done like a grown up ... as I am a qualified hairdresser I have offered my services to give this lil girl her wish ... & one of the other delegates went to the local lido & has gotten free passes & lessons as a gift to the other child..

support & offers of help can come in many ways .. so can you offer time or a service that may help some of these workers in some way ???

Please read below & dig deep .. I now realise that I could have been one of these locked out workers if the proposed merger with an Aussie outfit had gone ahead ... Look outside the Square .. can you detractors honestly say that one day you may not be in the position of these guys ??

URGENT: Progressive Workers Need Your Support
Please forward this message to you workmate or any email list you belong to.
For more information call 0800 1 UNION

By now you will have heard about the lockout of 500 union members by Progressive, the Australian-owned company that runs Woolworths, Countdown, Freshchoice and Supervalue supermarkets around New Zealand. The lockout is one of the most vicious employer attacks on a bunch of Kiwi workers we have seen in many decades.

The EPMU has 110 members in Christchurch. Our sister union, the National Distribution Union, represents the other 400 or so workers in Auckland, Palmerston North and Christchurch. They've all been locked out for nearly three weeks.

These workers are starting to hurt and they need our support. All of them deserve our support.

Progressive Enterprises is owned by Woolworths Australia, which is the second biggest private employer in Australasia. Their last posted profit was over a billion dollars Australian and their capital value is more than thirty billion dollars.

The background to the dispute is simple. Last year Progressive made a commitment to both unions it would seriously look at a national agreement covering the distribution centre workers. It makes sense. The work in each centre is the same. Many of the conditions are the same. They might as well bargain together, and work on getting parity of pay rates. Then, Progressive was bought out by Woolworths Australia. New management arrived. When the unions sat down to negotiate this year Woolworths welched on the deal made last year. They said they didn't want a single national agreement. And they said they wouldn't even talk about one. When the talks broke down the union members took two days strike action in support of their demand for a single national agreement. Woolworths' response? It locked the workers out indefinitely. This was on 28 August. They've been locked out for nearly three weeks.

Imagine your employer stopping you from working and stopping your pay for three weeks. And then saying you can't come back to work until you're prepared to negotiate on his terms.

This is what is happening to the EPMU and NDU members at Progressive. And this is why it's such an important dispute. Not just to the workers and the two unions. But to every worker and all unions in New Zealand. If this huge Australian corporate employer gets away with attacking its Kiwi workers like this, who will be next? If the whole New Zealand union movement can't support these workers at a time like this then what of our future?

These workers haven't chosen to be locked out. And they are not highly paid. In addition to a single national agreement they are seeking a reasonable pay rise - they've claimed 8%. Compare this to Woolworths Australia's $1 billion profit last year.

These workers shouldn't be forced to give up on their legitimate claim for a single national agreement covering the same work in different parts of the country along with a decent pay rise. They need to be supported in this fight. Your support is crucial. Every bit helps.

I am asking you on behalf of these workers and their two unions, the EPMU and the NDU, to dig deep and support them. Many have families to support and the usual obligations of running a household. You, your family and friends can contribute financially by ringing:

0900 LOCKOUT (0900 562 5688)

or by bank deposit to:

Account Name: "National Distribution Union"
Bank: Bank of New Zealand
Bank Account No: 02-0200-0217968-00
Reference: "Lock Out"

Or you can make an online credit card donation here.

If you're in Auckland, Palmerston North or Christchurch, pay a visit to the picket lines at 80 Favona Rd Mangere, Shands Road or Countdown Church Corner Christchurch, or the corners of Makomako Road and Mihaere Drive Palmerston North. Donate food. Your presence on the picket, no matter how long, is always welcome and boosts spirits hugely.

As I said, this is a hugely important dispute. It is a test for all of us. And now it's time for all good unionists to come to the aid of our locked out comrades. Let's show them we care. And let's show the Aussies they can't beat good Kiwi workers. And let's show our invincible union spirit.

Kia kaha. Stand tall.



Andrew Little
National Secretary
NZ Engineering, Printing & Manufacturing Union
P O Box 31-546
Lower Hutt
Tel. 04 576 1181

[oldrider]

Chancyy, you would not like my response to Andrew Little's letter and he would not be influenced by it even if he read it, so I will not antagonise you by posting a response.

As for you , I think your actions for the little girl were wonderful and I can understand and respect your point of view but there are too many emotional things being considered rather than cold hard industrial relations facts.

Suffice to say I don't altogether agree with your views about the strike/ lockout. Cheers John.

[Skyryder]

It is a nonsense to suggest that industrial action is a no win situation. If you are to take this only on a financial exercise then this could be argued. However the trade union movement no only believes that a cause for strike is to benifit those that are active in the strike but also for those that are to follow. Socalism may be a dirty word but in it's purest form it's not the sacrofice of the present but the gains for tomorrow that are realy important. That was the underlying cause when the Carpenters Union gained a forty hour week for it's members. Strong active Unions lead the way for society to follow. Much of the legislation that is incorperated into the Employment Relations Act is a direct result of active unionism and these conditions we now take for granted. The same can said for the suffragettes. Scorned on by society at the time.........now many are considered heroines. We can slag the Lalia Harrys, the Sue Kedgly's, the Sue Bradfords etc.............but some people have the balls to stand up and go into bat for the underdog. HOW MANY HERE HAVE DONE IT??


Skyryder

[chanceyy]

Chancyy, you would not like my response to Andrew Little's letter and he would not be influenced by it even if he read it, so I will not antagonise you by posting a response.

As for you , I think your actions for the little girl were wonderful and I can understand and respect your point of view but there are too many emotional things being considered rather than cold hard industrial relations facts.

Suffice to say I don't altogether agree with your views about the strike/ lockout. Cheers John.


thats why we can agree to disagree John .. Everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint ..


All I realise is that i have had deeper clarity on how tenuous my employment could be if we had been taken over by an Aussie corporation .. esp with some of the changes that had been implemented in early preperation of an impending merger ..

[chanceyy]

It is a nonsense to suggest that industrial action is a no win situation. If you are to take this only on a financial exercise then this could be argued. However the trade union movement no only believes that a cause for strike is to benifit those that are active in the strike but also for those that are to follow. Socalism may be a dirty word but in it's purest form it's not the sacrofice of the present but the gains for tomorrow that are realy important. That was the underlying cause when the Carpenters Union gained a forty hour week for it's members. Strong active Unions lead the way for society to follow. Much of the legislation that is incorperated into the Employment Relations Act is a direct result of active unionism and these conditions we now take for granted. The same can said for the suffragettes. Scorned on by society at the time.........now many are considered heroines. We can slag the Lalia Harrys, the Sue Kedgly's, the Sue Bradfords etc.............but some people have the balls to stand up and go into bat for the underdog. HOW MANY HERE HAVE DONE IT??


Skyryder

Amen Skyryder

also who do you think got us the social wage ??

Annual holidays
Public holidays
Public, no fault, 24 hour acc
Working for families
Public Health system subsidised doctors & public hospitals
public education system
health & safety rights
Unemployment, sickness & dpb
Paid parental leave
Equal pay
Human rights
redundancy protection laws
etc ....


Well its not the Govt that got ppl the above rights .. how many of you are enjoying some of them ??

[Finn]

To all the bleading hearts, he's my view on the topic.

I've worked bloody hard for what I've got today and I wasn't a member of the lucky sperm club either. In fact I grew up relatively poor.

The reason I don't give a toss about those locked out workers is for the following reasons;

1) Don't like it - leave. Can't? Should have paid more attention at school.
2) Can't afford to feed their 9 kids, tough. Shouldn't have had them
3) Their unions don't give a fuck about them, why should I?
4) Where's my social responsibility? I pay it in taxes, that's enough.
5) While this Government is in power, my wallet is closed.

As an fair and reasonable employer, I've had enough of this environment.

Over & out.

[Finn]

Amen Skyryder

also who do you think got us the social wage ??

Annual holidays
Public holidays
Public, no fault, 24 hour acc
Working for families
Public Health system subsidised doctors & public hospitals
public education system
health & safety rights
Unemployment, sickness & dpb
Paid parental leave
Equal pay
Human rights
redundancy protection laws
etc ....


Well its not the Govt that got ppl the above rights .. how many of you are enjoying some of them ??


Great so out of all that, how many days would you like to work a year? 5 or 10?

[chanceyy]

Great so out of all that, how many days would you like to work a year? 5 or 10?


now thats a stupid comment finn


as for your previous post .. I have also worked hard for everything i have .. but I also know that such is the curve in the road of life .. & i sure want support if i find myself in their situation .., & yes the union certainly do care ... at least more than you ;)

[Scouse]

well said Skyryder

[Hitcher]

This strike has gone on way too long. Any benefits Distribution Workers Union members may have hoped to achieve have well and truly been torched. And this strike was never about money either, rather it has been about a bunch of technical union stuff designed to increase their muscle in the longer term. I feel sorry for low-income families that are being badly hurt to salve the egos of their leaders. Why, why, why, dear Laila?

[chanceyy]

This strike has gone on way too long. Any benefits Distribution Workers Union members may have hoped to achieve have well and truly been torched. And this strike was never about money either, rather it has been about a bunch of technical union stuff designed to increase their muscle in the longer term. I feel sorry for low-income families that are being badly hurt to salve the egos of their leaders. Why, why, why, dear Laila?

hitcher ... it is not a strike .. the workers put in notice of strike action for 48 hours .. the companies response was to issue suspension notices to them .. so they are now locked out .. the only way back in is to lose all of their rights and accept what the company wants to offer ..

so the battle is far from over and yes the workers will win this one .. & in the long run it will benefit other workers ..

[oldrider]

It is a nonsense to suggest that industrial action is a no win situation. If you are to take this only on a financial exercise then this could be argued. However the trade union movement no only believes that a cause for strike is to benifit those that are active in the strike but also for those that are to follow. Socalism may be a dirty word but in it's purest form it's not the sacrofice of the present but the gains for tomorrow that are realy important. That was the underlying cause when the Carpenters Union gained a forty hour week for it's members. Strong active Unions lead the way for society to follow. Much of the legislation that is incorperated into the Employment Relations Act is a direct result of active unionism and these conditions we now take for granted. The same can said for the suffragettes. Scorned on by society at the time.........now many are considered heroines. We can slag the Lalia Harrys, the Sue Kedgly's, the Sue Bradfords etc.............but some people have the balls to stand up and go into bat for the underdog. HOW MANY HERE HAVE DONE IT??
Skyryder
Response to Skyryder's challenge above.

I think I could confidently claim to having "been there done that" from all the strategic positions in the spectrum and my conclusions are based upon that experience.

In all of my union years, almost all of the talk was generated on how to screw the "employer" but by comparison, I can not think of a time when managers gathered together to talk of how they could screw the "employee"!

This is the singular biggest surprise to me following the transition from the "shop floor" to a middle to quite high "management role!"

Nearly all of the focus of the management team with respect to employees, was to try to establish a satisfactory work environment.

Unions depend on disruption and spreading dissatisfaction, in order to create an environment of distrust towards "they" the managers and employers that are constantly trying to "screw" them. (The workers) This is the view cultured by the unions.

These strikes and actions are more about the survival of the unnecessary third party of industry, the "representative" and the bigger the union body, the more hungry they are to survive as unnecessary industrial parasites.

Unions are little more than another form of taxation, bleeding the workers for a share of their already overtaxed earnings and to make things worse the union pays a large portion of that money to the Labour party funding to make sure that the situation remains in their favour.

The weapon that the unions use against their membership is "fear!"

Lies and distortion of facts fuel the fear in the minds of their members, Labour governments pass legislation making Union membership compulsory and the grip on the unsuspecting worker tightens and tightens.

The part that astounds me is that there are employers who are so stupid and down right lazy, that they not only aid and abet this system by their inaction, they actually subscribe to it.

Ownership of the business or industry is only red herring thrown in by the unions as part of the fear factor, ownership onshore/offshore, is totally irrelevant.

This post is not intended to inflame this topic, I am just trying to share my life experience with those who care to think about it. :yes: Cheers John.

[Hitcher]

so the battle is far from over and yes the workers will win this one .. & in the long run it will benefit other workers ..

Single national collective agreements have never benefitted workers in the long term. There are all manner of differences between businesses operating in provincial centres and those in big cities. A national collective says all workers must be treated the same way irrespective of where they live. I disagree with this assumption.

Similarly cherry picking all of the good bits out of several collectives to form an uber-collective agreement, in addition to a wage increase more than double the rate of inflation was unlikely to ever find favour with an employer. I think that the union leadership has badly overplayed its hand on this one.

It started as a strike, it's now a lock-out. I feel very sorry for the affected workers and their families. I hope at some stage in the not-too-distant future they can find jobs.

[chanceyy]

Response to Skyryder's challenge above.

I think I could confidently claim to having "been there done that" from all the strategic positions in the spectrum and my conclusions are based upon that experience.

In all of my union years, almost all of the talk was generated on how to screw the "employer" but by comparison, I can not think of a time when managers gathered together to talk of how they could screw the "employee"!


sorry john i have to disagree with you .. I too have been a worker .. & a manager

@ no time have i ever come across a union who uses fear tactics

As a delegate we have a mutual respect with management & we are working closely with them to ensure that our jobs are secure .. & even though our negotiations took 10 months to settle we were complimented on our professionalism and knowledge of the issues at hand. (our call centre manager was extremely proud of our conduct & let us know it)

I have no hesitation in discussion current issues with our managers, & they have sure come to us to clarify points ..

being unionised mean we do have a democracy & can have a strong voice in matters of importance ... & be acknowledged and taken seriously

It is give & take on both sides with the same goals in sight it can be a pretty powerful thing

[terbang]

To all the bleading hearts, he's my view on the topic.

I've worked bloody hard for what I've got today and I wasn't a member of the lucky sperm club either. In fact I grew up relatively poor.

The reason I don't give a toss about those locked out workers is for the following reasons;

1) Don't like it - leave. Can't? Should have paid more attention at school.
2) Can't afford to feed their 9 kids, tough. Shouldn't have had them
3) Their unions don't give a fuck about them, why should I?
4) Where's my social responsibility? I pay it in taxes, that's enough.
5) While this Government is in power, my wallet is closed.

As an fair and reasonable employer, I've had enough of this environment.

Over & out.

6) Wish I could make 5'6"..!

[Scouse]

Response to Skyryder's challenge above.

I think I could confidently claim to having "been there done that" from all the strategic positions in the spectrum and my conclusions are based upon that experience.

In all of my union years, almost all of the talk was generated on how to screw the "employer" but by comparison, I can not think of a time when managers gathered together to talk of how they could screw the "employee"!

This is the singular biggest surprise to me following the transition from the "shop floor" to a middle to quite high "management role!"

Nearly all of the focus of the management team with respect to employees, was to try to establish a satisfactory work environment.

Unions depend on disruption and spreading dissatisfaction, in order to create an environment of distrust towards "they" the managers and employers that are constantly trying to "screw" them. (The workers) This is the view cultured by the unions.

These strikes and actions are more about the survival of the unnecessary third party of industry, the "representative" and the bigger the union body, the more hungry they are to survive as unnecessary industrial parasites.

Unions are little more than another form of taxation, bleeding the workers for a share of their already overtaxed earnings and to make things worse the union pays a large portion of that money to the Labour party funding to make sure that the situation remains in their favour.

The weapon that the unions use against their membership is "fear!"

Lies and distortion of facts fuel the fear in the minds of their members, Labour governments pass legislation making Union membership compulsory and the grip on the unsuspecting worker tightens and tightens.

The part that astounds me is that there are employers who are so stupid and down right lazy, that they not only aid and abet this system by their inaction, they actually subscribe to it.

Ownership of the business or industry is only red herring thrown in by the unions as part of the fear factor, ownership onshore/offshore, is totally irrelevant.

This post is not intended to inflame this topic, I am just trying to share my life experience with those who care to think about it. :yes: Cheers John.I think your living in the 70's

[chanceyy]

Single national collective agreements have never benefitted workers in the long term. There are all manner of differences between businesses operating in provincial centres and those in big cities. A national collective says all workers must be treated the same way irrespective of where they live. I disagree with this assumption.

Similarly cherry picking all of the good bits out of several collectives to form an uber-collective agreement, in addition to a wage increase more than double the rate of inflation was unlikely to ever find favour with an employer. I think that the union leadership has badly overplayed its hand on this one.

It started as a strike, it's now a lock-out. I feel very sorry for the affected workers and their families. I hope at some stage in the not-too-distant future they can find jobs.



Well Hitcher .. I work in one of three sites that our company has .. we used to have a prob with a us & them mentality even though we all did the same work and worked for the same outfit .. a collective has certainly pulled the three sites together and we work to a common goal .. much better culture and relationships between sites are much better .. so sorry i do not agree with you