Peter Jackson's got a problem

[dawnrazor]

As has been reported in a previous thread, PJ and the folks at WETA are re-making Dambusters.

Now just in case there is anyone not familiar with the deal here, the original Dambusters film was made back in 1954 and is about a very particular true incident that took place during WW2.

One of the reasons PJ has decided to remake it is because many of the facts surrounding the original events where classified by the official secrets act and where not available to be added into the story of the original version, which is a little ironic as you will see.

However, ONE fact is proving to be a bit tricky to get around.

A major characters of the story is a dog...a dog called...'Nigger'.

It was a particularly common name for the time period to name any black pet 'nigger', my dad had a dog called nigger when he was a kid, probably in the same way todays pets are called 'sponge-bob square pants' or whatever...it was a different time, but I digress.

Back in 2006 this choice of name is proving to be a little bit of a problem and as you can appreciate many people find this racist, also in a recent screening of the original movie on the BBC it was changed to 'TRIGGER', at great expense I'm sure.

Apparently PJ is torn, he wants to be truthful to the original story and set the story straight and present the truth behind the events, a president that is undermined with the changing of characters names from day one.

He is said to be considering changing the dogs name as there is considerable pressure from the powers that be.


So what should PJ do?

[Madness]

Poll please.

[paturoa]

tell the story, names are inconsequential

[sAsLEX]

nigger means black, they can get over it just quietly.

[Colapop]

It is what it is. He's not making a racial slur - just telling a story. Remember when gay meant happy?

[hXc]

Fucking PC bullshit. Call him Nigger.

[Jonny Rotten]

just have the guy calling the dog nigger during the movie be black " afracain american"

its ok for a nigger to call a nigger nigger....... but a whitey cant call a nigger nigger thats where it gets racisit

[McJim]

I knew a Black African fella in London - he used to call white folks Wiggers.

[James Deuce]

The dog's name was Nigger because he was a black Labrador. They weren't PC in those days, and with reason. The British Empire still had a substantial amount of real estate under its thumb, and called its subjects whatever the hell they wanted to, a bit like the mythical 500lb gorilla.

He was also a shit of a dog that no one liked and the Station Commander ran him over, some say deliberately.

[muzz]

Lots off things happen that people don't like'
But if you are telling a story on facts get the facts right.
His name was nigger thats a fact.

[Harry33]

If that was the dogs name leave it alone. Hollywood needs to stop rewriting history to make a better story.
I think only small minded people will try and make a mountian out of a mole hill with this.

[James Deuce]

I used to work with a Chinese Bass Player who called me Nigger - said I was the blackest cat he's ever played with.

Biggest compliment I've ever had, bar none.

[hXc]

just have the guy calling the dog nigger during the movie be black " afracain american"

its ok for a nigger to call a nigger nigger....... but a whitey cant call a nigger nigger thats where it gets racisit
I feel reason to quote myself from my 5th form (This year's) speech.

Now Ethnic people get offended when I call them Ethnic, what's up with that? The idea of Political Correctness seems to be making up new words with the same meaning. No longer are they "Those Slave Niggers", they're "Afro-Americans." No longer can we call the dairy owner a "Curry Muncher", no, now it has to be the politically correct term of "Spice Enjoyer." And Osama Bin Laden, one of many of our turban wearing friends, is no longer to be addressed as a "Sand Monkey", he's now known as an "Arab". Well this has just gone too far. We need to do everything in our power to get New Zealand back to how it was BEFORE the politicians wrecked it for us.

You're either with me, or you're a tool of the establishment. I've watched "V for Vendetta", I've read "1984", and I listen to Tool. I know what I'm talking about. All your scheming is part of a plan to rid free thinking and democracy.

So there we have it, the foundations of our country's moral retaining walls are crumbling under the collective might of the polititians. Take a stand for yourself! Don't use fancy PC words, just say it like it is. The time of reckoning is at hand, and we need to stand together if we are going to make it through this whirlwind of ridiculousness and hatred against the majority. Oh yes, I've called you on it, Ms Clarke. We all know that the entire reasoning behind PC is to opress the entire population.

Let's preserve our freedom and say no to the scourge of Political Correctness!

[Harry33]

It is what it is. He's not making a racial slur - just telling a story. Remember when gay meant happy?


Shit how old are you? lol I can remember when a popsicle was 15c.

[Colapop]

"older than the mountains, younger than the breeze..." JD (before he went wacky)

[The Stranger]

Bloody hell, call a spade a spade.

[dawnrazor]

just to throw something into the mix here...

Hollywood is not in the business of presenting the truth in favor of losing a dollar...it is tinsel town after all...regardless of the director, its not a documentry....

[Colapop]

Yeah but it's the director who is deciding how it is to be made. ie. what characters are to be included and how they are to be presented. He may feel that a dog named 'Nigger' is an integral part of the story. The Hollywood money has given him the artistic lisence to create the movie as he sees fit. He did, after all, make that other bilion dollar (quite profitable) movie series for them...

[bane]

The way PJ bastardised LOTR, I think calling the dog Trigger will be rather easy to miss amongst the guarranteed artistic licence.

Its just an easy way to get publicity for the project - PJ you are the master

[muzz]

Shit how old are you? lol I can remember when a popsicle was 15c.

Shit I remember when they were sixpence :whistle:

[Steam]

Duh, it's simple, just call it Boy, like "Heel boy", or "Fetch the stick boy!" or "where's my fucking dog". He doesnt' need to mention the name at all.

[dawnrazor]

Yeah but it's the director who is deciding how it is to be made. ie. what characters are to be included and how they are to be presented. He may feel that a dog named 'Nigger' is an integral part of the story. The Hollywood money has given him the artistic lisence to create the movie as he sees fit. He did, after all, make that other bilion dollar (quite profitable) movie series for them...

Yeah but your only as good as your last mistake in Hollywood, and the monkey movie was not the 'BIG' smash that everyone predicted...anyway I expect the dog will either be cut out or never directly refered to in the course of the movie and hidden in the credits

pssst....here boy....good dog....sit...give the paw....don't call my bitch a ho mofo

[Motu]

Shit I remember when they were sixpence :whistle:

And we called them TT2's and they were 4d.

We also had a rhyme for choosing - ''eeny meeny miny moe,catch a nigger by the toe,if squeals let him go,eeny meeny miny moe.Even my Maori friends said that....but they didn't consider themselves black back then.....nor did we.

[NighthawkNZ]

Shit how old are you? lol I can remember when a popsicle was 15c.

I remember 0.08c a popsicle

[slowpoke]

I feel reason to quote myself from my 5th form (This year's) speech.

Now Ethnic people get offended when I call them Ethnic, what's up with that? The idea of Political Correctness seems to be making up new words with the same meaning. No longer are they "Those Slave Niggers", they're "Afro-Americans." No longer can we call the dairy owner a "Curry Muncher", no, now it has to be the politically correct term of "Spice Enjoyer." And Osama Bin Laden, one of many of our turban wearing friends, is no longer to be addressed as a "Sand Monkey", he's now known as an "Arab". Well this has just gone too far. We need to do everything in our power to get New Zealand back to how it was BEFORE the politicians wrecked it for us.

You're either with me, or you're a tool of the establishment. I've watched "V for Vendetta", I've read "1984", and I listen to Tool. I know what I'm talking about. All your scheming is part of a plan to rid free thinking and democracy.

So there we have it, the foundations of our country's moral retaining walls are crumbling under the collective might of the polititians. Take a stand for yourself! Don't use fancy PC words, just say it like it is. The time of reckoning is at hand, and we need to stand together if we are going to make it through this whirlwind of ridiculousness and hatred against the majority. Oh yes, I've called you on it, Ms Clarke. We all know that the entire reasoning behind PC is to opress the entire population.

Let's preserve our freedom and say no to the scourge of Political Correctness!

Are you for phukkin' real?!
You've used a hollywood movie, a publicity seeking band and a book written nearly sixty years ago about a time before you were born to substantiate narrow minded attitudes fostered in a small country town at the arse end of the world.
I was going to launch into a diatribe attacking your smalltown mentality....but then I realised that you are just a stoopid country kid with a scar where his second head used to be. Well, that's the impression the rest of the world has of some junior wannabe militant redneck and they'll categorise you as such. What's that? The stereotype is innaccurate you say? You are offended? Who wants a bit of Political Correctness now.....?

[sAsLEX]

just to throw something into the mix here...

Hollywood is not in the business of presenting the truth in favor of losing a dollar...it is tinsel town after all...regardless of the director, its not a documentry....

Look at all the drama over the da vinci code that the god botherers whipped up, they will make more money as any publicity is good publicity!

[Shadows]

It's the name of a dog. It isn't like he led a naked little adopted orphan African boy around on a choker chain and tied him up outside at night, fed him nothing but beef bones and washed him down with the fire hose once a week.... if that was the case then maybe I'd understand what the fuss was about but otherwise it's just the proverbial storm in a teacup.

[SARGE]

It's the name of a dog. It isn't like he led a naked little adopted orphan African boy around on a choker chain and tied him up outside at night, fed him nothing but beef bones and washed him down with the fire hose once a week.... if that was the case then maybe I'd understand what the fuss was about but otherwise it's just the proverbial storm in a teacup.

for those who dont remember... a clip of that was in Pink Floyd- The Wall... when Pink was in his room and the TV was on...right before he lost the plot and started smashing shit ..

[miSTa]

You don't go re-writing history. The dogs name is Nigger.

[hXc]

Are you for phukkin' real?!
You've used a hollywood movie, a publicity seeking band and a book written nearly sixty years ago about a time before you were born to substantiate narrow minded attitudes fostered in a small country town at the arse end of the world.
I was going to launch into a diatribe attacking your smalltown mentality....but then I realised that you are just a stoopid country kid with a scar where his second head used to be. Well, that's the impression the rest of the world has of some junior wannabe militant redneck and they'll categorise you as such. What's that? The stereotype is innaccurate you say? You are offended? Who wants a bit of Political Correctness now.....?
Tool are far from a publicity seeking band. Maynard James Keenan is a man who is outspoken about his opinion, as am I. Because of how different Tool are, is why people like them. They are not publicity seeking; They do what they love and people like it. Not their fault.

And that book written 60 years ago, revolutionised the world. The views taken and portrayed in that book are absolutely amazing. And if a 15 year old can read it, understand it, and appreciate it, then the author certainly done something right.

You must be the most pathetic life form I have ever had the displeasure of associating with. I wish the fleas of a thousand camels upon your testicles. Grow up and take a fucking look around you. See where this country is heading and take a look into the future. Take a look deeper into politicians and see what mind playing games they're up to. If a 15 year old can, then damn near anyone else can. Have a bit of fucking maturity mate.

And before you go calling me a redneck country kid. . .who's the one who lives in the Wairarapa and who's the one who spent 15 years in the West Island?

[RiderInBlack]

I really don't care what the ya call the dog. Ya just can't convince me the it's name is so important in relation to the Dam Busters as far as telling their story.
Get over it and get on with the real important stuff.

[Swoop]

Another thread on the same topic???

Same reply as before. Don't try and change history. The dogs name is Nigger.

Changing it would be like calling Winston Churchill by a different name. Stick to the facts if making a movie of an actual event.

[James Deuce]

The Nigger sub text is one of the defining threads of the story. No one liked Guy Gibson much either. Guy and the Dog are almost a mirror for how the Dam Busters unit viewed both of them.

It may not be a documentary, but MOST people going to see will think it is. There's so much revisionist rubbish going on in the face of our PC new world, that we'll be as bad as Japan in a decade. They used to omit Asian history from 1931 to 1945 from their school text books. There's a huge chunk of their society that can't understand why an 85 year old man in Arrowtown would recoil from a Japanese face in horror, or mutter imprecations about those bloody yellow people taking over the world.

The Dam Busters mission was a failure in every important way. The CO was a flake with a hideous pet, the mad scientist who came up with the idea of a rotating drum suspended from a 4 engine bomber flying at 80 ft into a heavily defended non-strategic target just needed an assistant called Igor to complete the picture, and British Intelligence over stated the importance of the Ruhr Valley Dams hugely. Bomber Command was facing 15-20% losses at this time of the war and this mission was no exception. The USAAF considered losses of 10% unacceptable.

It is a great story about human ingenuity and how vastly disparate people can be hammered into an effective team. Lose Nigger and you lose an impotant catalyst for the attitudes this unit displayed to their CO, and how his superiors treated him.

[MSTRS]

Nigger. It's just a name. Lot's of people call(ed) their dog Blackie. Does that get the chop too? FFS. Oh, and I suppose the Holocaust never happened either?

[bert_is_evil]

nigger means black, they can get over it just quietly.

Nigger doesn't mean black - it means 4/5ths human. It was used as justification for enslaving africans and transporting them to USA, if they could convince themselves that africans were partly animal then it was acceptable (according to an American Studies Lecturer at Canterbury University I sat next to on a plane once, long flight...)

Which is not to say they should rename the dog, no point rewriting history (like Japan does in it's school text books with regard to WW2)

[Squeak the Rat]

Let's bomb these damn fritz's. What!
With all their killing of jews and
the like. Terrible shame that. Now wheres my dog,
come here you stupid nigger!

[slowpoke]

Tool are far from a publicity seeking band. Maynard James Keenan is a man who is outspoken about his opinion, as am I. Because of how different Tool are, is why people like them. They are not publicity seeking; They do what they love and people like it. Not their fault.

And that book written 60 years ago, revolutionised the world. The views taken and portrayed in that book are absolutely amazing. And if a 15 year old can read it, understand it, and appreciate it, then the author certainly done something right.

You must be the most pathetic life form I have ever had the displeasure of associating with. I wish the fleas of a thousand camels upon your testicles. Grow up and take a fucking look around you. See where this country is heading and take a look into the future. Take a look deeper into politicians and see what mind playing games they're up to. If a 15 year old can, then damn near anyone else can. Have a bit of fucking maturity mate.

And before you go calling me a redneck country kid. . .who's the one who lives in the Wairarapa and who's the one who spent 15 years in the West Island?

So you don't like being called by a stereotypical description? It's slightly politically incorrect isn't it? Hahahahahaha!
Funny how I'm a "pathetic life form" for "saying it like is" but when YOU do it you are striking a blow against the "establishment".....what a bloody hoot! What's the difference? Oh yeah, that's right you are on the receiving end this time.
Newsflash: this Keenan bloke is NOT the messiah and he's got publicist like all the rest of 'em. George Orwell's book is thought provoking, nothing more. Read a bit of Noam Chomsky or John Ralston Saul if you wanna be a bit more current.
Fleas from a camel? Have you even seen a camel in the flesh? How's about outside of a zoo? Have you ridden one? They are grumpy critters and not the easiest things in the world to get along with....but I digress.
Grow up? Have a bit of maturity? You are just makin' this too easy, so I'll let those go through to the keeper, with the admonition: look in the mirror.
The Wairarapa is just fine and dandy thank you very much, and I can say that after having lived and worked in multi million person cities, remote mining towns, offshore platforms and construction work in South Korea yada yada. Your opinion on the other hand is based on.....what exactly?
Get out of your bed room, turn off your Ipod, shut down your 'puter, jump on your bike and get out and experience life with an open mind before you preach to those who have got just a tad more real world experience than yourself.
You sound like a smart, if misguided, young fella and you're into bikes so there's hope for ya yet.

[MSTRS]

...blah...blah...
You sound like a smart, if misguided, young fella and you're into bikes so there's hope for ya yet.

I blame the parents...:dodge:

[The_Dover]

let's call the dog "Porch Monkey" or "bro"

[Squeak the Rat]

The Wairarapa is just fine and dandy thank you very much, and I can say that after having lived and worked in multi million person cities, remote mining towns, offshore platforms and construction work in South Korea yada yada. Your opinion on the other hand is based on.....what exactly?
Get out of your bed room, turn off your Ipod, shut down your 'puter, jump on your bike and get out and experience life with an open mind before you preach to those who have got just a tad more real world experience than yourself.
You sound like a smart, if misguided, young fella and you're into bikes so there's hope for ya yet.
You sound well traveled mate. Especially Australia. Awesome.

[James Deuce]

Let's bomb these damn fritz's. What!
With all their killing of jews and
the like.

That wasn't a motivation for the Allies in WW2. In fact they didn't believe it was happening, and post WW2, Britain helped Russia with its Jewish Pogroms, by blocking access to the Mediterranean and Palestine from the Black Sea, despite seeing what Hitler had done.

[slowpoke]

You sound well traveled mate. Especially Australia. Awesome.

I dunno about awesome mate, a lot of it didn't seem like much fun at the time! I've seen alot of things I wish I never had but I guess there are just as many I'd like to see again. It's funny the path life ends up finding for us.

[Pixie]

call it Bl*ck C*nt

[ManDownUnder]

When has it ever been appropriate to deny (or attempt to change) history?

The dog was called Nigger, it is offensive to some, so let's accept those two facts and get on with it. Include it in the movie - it's going to raise it as a talking point and help the immature make dicks of themselves and get some sense beaten into them.

Darwinism at work.

Or should we not talk about Auschwitz, the gassing of the kurds, child abuse, rape etc...?

[Pixie]

(according to an American Studies Lecturer at Canterbury University I sat next to on a plane once, long flight...)

It probably seemed much longer than it really was.

I had some neighbours,a nice couple,the woman was white and her husband was samoan.
They had a black lab called nigger.
Every day she would call out:"nigger,nigger" when it was the dog's feeding time.
I used to tell her the neighbours might get the wrong idea.

[35tickets]

The dog's name is Nigger. So it should be called that in the movie. I've got two books on the dambusters and each book refers to the dog by that name.

So what are we going to do....change history?

After all if we turn on the tv and watch juice or the NZ top 40, how often does the word 'nigger' come out of missy eliots mouth? Actually i don't watch the music channel much only the jim beam show, everything else is shit.

[The Stranger]

When has it ever been appropriate to deny (or attempt to change) history?

The dog was called Nigger, it is offensive to some, so let's accept those two facts and get on with it.

Well even more important is if it is offensive and causes a stir he is going to get a ton of free publicity.
That can't be beaten for promoting a movie.

[sAsLEX]

Nigger doesn't mean black - it means 4/5ths human. It was used as justification for enslaving africans and transporting them to USA, if they could convince themselves that africans were partly animal then it was acceptable (according to an American Studies Lecturer at Canterbury University I sat next to on a plane once, long flight...)

Which is not to say they should rename the dog, no point rewriting history (like Japan does in it's school text books with regard to WW2)


Etymology

Main article: Negro

The Spanish word negro originates from the Latin word niger, meaning black. In English, negro or neger became negar and finally nigger, most likely under influence of French nègre. Neger (sometimes spelled "neggar") prevailed in northern New York under the Dutch and also in Philadelphia, in its Moravian and Pennsylvania Dutch communities. For example, the New York City African Burial Ground was originally known as "Begraaf Plaats van de Neger."

In the United States, the word nigger was not originally considered derogatory, but merely denotative of black, as it was in much of the world. In nineteenth-century American literature, there are many uses of the word nigger with no intended negative connotation (see below)

God I really do hate being wrong.

Get over yourself the word means black.

[Macktheknife]

Nigger doesn't mean black - it means 4/5ths human. It was used as justification for enslaving africans and transporting them to USA, if they could convince themselves that africans were partly animal then it was acceptable (according to an American Studies Lecturer at Canterbury University I sat next to on a plane once, long flight...)

Which is not to say they should rename the dog, no point rewriting history (like Japan does in it's school text books with regard to WW2)
Bert, you seriously need to check your facts before you believe crap like this. Some guy who may or may not have been a lecturer, clearly infected with PCism, sells you shares in the bridge of retro-history analysis/justification and you then go around believing it and repeating it.
I see Saslex has already shown the origins of the word so I will not duplicate it, only support and confirm it.
The dogs name was Nigger, get over it, it is an important character in the story and should remain true to the original for multiple reasons, not least of which is that people really need to grow up about our history. Constantly sanitising things harms us all and disguises or removes the ability to learn from our mistakes.

[Krayy]

let's call the dog "Porch Monkey" or "bro"

Can't be "Porch Monkey". We're taking it back :yes:

[The_Dover]

Can't be "Porch Monkey". We're taking it back :yes:

better check the maori don't own it first.

it might have been theirs since the dawn of time

[ManDownUnder]

Well even more important is if it is offensive and causes a stir he is going to get a ton of free publicity.
That can't be beaten for promoting a movie.

LOL - bloody cynic!

It reminds me of a time I was reading a story to my little boy (about 6 months ago). I went for a classic...Brer Rabbit. Great adventures and stories, and none too PC. There's happy niggers in there, sad niggers, etc etc... which raised the question - "What's a nigger"? So I answered it - accurately.

Explained where the word came from, what it meant then, and what it means now - and why people don't like to use it any more.

Now he knows. I didn't make a big deal of it - so I hope he knows... it's not a big deal.

Like any child (or anybody) - how are you supposed to know about things if people won't talk about them? How does a kid ever know "Fuck" is a dirty word, reserved for special circumstances.. unless someone they trust is actually willing to explain it?

Or "Nigger"? Put it in context and we're all better off.

[Deano]

And I always thought the word Nigger came from 'Nigeria'. You live and learn.

[MSTRS]

Almost right, Deano. Country was named after the river Niger. The origin of that word has been answered.

[The_Dover]

There's happy niggers in there, sad niggers, etc etc...

is that sad niggers or sand niggers?

[LilSel]

If thats the dogs name... then thats the dogs name...

[Maha]

I bet if the dogs name was Bitch (in the movie)..... some views would change??.....:innocent:

[James Deuce]

No absolutely not. If the "dog's" name was historically bitch it should stay that. There is NOTHING insulting about calling a female dog bitch. That IS what they are after all.

Must try harder maha man.

[Skyryder]

If Jackson changes the dogs name because of the Penile Corectile brigade, then the PC wussers have won.

It's a defining moment in New Zealand's history folks. Will Political Correctnes alter history or will history prevail. :zzzz: :zzzz:

Skyryder

[The_Dover]

what if it was called cunt?

or gook?

or faggot?

[James Deuce]

Doesn't matter Dover. It's like changing Winston Churchill's name to Beatrice Andover in a film about that Yalta Conference. Ooo let's change Stalin's name to Heather Locklear, and Franklin Roosevelt to just plain old Franklin. You know, the turtle from the kid's cartoon.

[Jamezo]

PETAR JACKSUN WILL NEVAR BE ALLOWED TO GET AWAYY WIHT CALING TEH DOG "NIGGAR" BECAUSE OF THE GRAND KIKE HOLYWOOD CONSPIRASY!!!1!!!!


srsly.

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://home.tu-clausthal.de/~ifjkl/pics/schauspieler/quentin_tarantino.jpg">

"Did you see a sign outside, that said 'Dead nigger storage' ?"

<img src="http://sweb.cz/kenychihuri/dead-nigger-storage.jpg">

:sunny:

-Indy

[slowpoke]

Never let the truth get in the way of telling a good story.

Like nobody on this site would EVER stretch/embellish/contort or ignore the facts as we are telling our little nursery rhymes. No sir, uh uh, never happen....yeah right.

[Hillbilly]

nigger means black, they can get over it just quietly.


Actually, it doesn't. it was the term applied to the African slaves as they came from the Niger Delta. Hence the term "nigger" has evolved into a general decription of people with black skin.

Regarding the dog, PJ will do what the producers tell him to do. Otherwise there's no money and no film.

[Hillbilly]

nigger means black, they can get over it just quietly.


Actually, it doesn't. it was the term applied to the African slaves as they came from the Niger Delta. Hence the term "nigger" has evolved into a general decription of people with black skin.

Regarding the dog, PJ will do what the producers tell him to do. Otherwise there's no money and no film.

[Hillbilly]

<snip> damn! Double Post!

[James Deuce]

Actually, it doesn't. it was the term applied to the African slaves as they came from the Niger Delta. Hence the term "nigger" has evolved into a general decription of people with black skin.

Regarding the dog, PJ will do what the producers tell him to do. Otherwise there's no money and no film.

The word Niger means Black.

[James Deuce]

Never let the truth get in the way of telling a good story.

Like nobody on this site would EVER stretch/embellish/contort or ignore the facts as we are telling our little nursery rhymes. No sir, uh uh, never happen....yeah right.

It's one thing to talk shit on a motorcycle site. It is entirely another to re-write a historical document of fact.

[Lou Girardin]

This is a result of the twisted morality that can see 600,000 people die as the result of an illegal invasion, yet gets upset about an historically accurate word.
The same people who forced the resignation of a Congreessman who addressed a black audience and used the word "niggardley" in his speech.
The poor dears felt insulted. Illiterate, but still insulted.

[slowpoke]

It's one thing to talk shit on a motorcycle site. It is entirely another to re-write a historical document of fact.

Surely it's just a matter of scale.

They are both open expressions for the general public to see. The difference in this case is that if someone on this site was to spruik a load of shite against a company, institution or individual and the injured party was to take it to heart then I rekun some heavy duty court proceedings could follow.

Mr Jackson and co will no doubt be protected by the "artistic license" convention and "this film is BASED on fact" addendum, so they won't actually present it as a "historical document of fact". That and the fact you could call the dog anything you liked except late for dinner, and it wouldn't give a shit.

Back to the original thread: he could always use "The Young Ones" strategy and call the dog "Igger, with a silent N" just like "Rick, with a silent P". (Haha, where were you in 1984?)

[James Deuce]

It's a matter of scale alright.

FIrst it's the small things, then the Holocaust never happened, and then it's "Black People?, There's never been any Black people in the US of A."

That attitude has justified more wars than religion.

[slowpoke]

This is a result of the twisted morality that can see 600,000 people die as the result of an illegal invasion, yet gets upset about an historically accurate word.


I know what you are saying jim2 and I pretty much agree with you. But which is the greater good: getting the name of the dog right or getting the movie made and honouring a great achievement (if any act of war can be called that) 'cos the movie won't be made otherwise. It may be sad but it's a fact of life.
As Lou has pointed out above we've got to get it in perspective, there are more important things to worry about.

[James Deuce]

I think Lou's actually supporting my point. They'll change history to avoid pissing off a shallow Industry who only really care about the 300 Million people in the Continental US out of a Global market of probably 2 Billion, rather than call a Black Labrador by its name.

As I've said before. Guy Gibson and Nigger were almost universally loathed by the staff and ground crew of 617 SQN. He was a nutter who did his own thing and time and again made decisions that got people needlessly killed. The dog used to attack people for no reason. The attitudes to both of them are very impotant to the story. It doesn't have the same impact if someone loathes a dog called Trigger, does it? And in fact that will probably piss off fans of the "real" Trigger (a horse).

Guy Gibson died disobeying orders and flying well outside the mission parameters he was trained for. He was a maverick and a loner and tended to bond with misfits. The Dam Busters raid succeeded because of those qualities. Take the dog out or call it Mavis and it won't be right.

Yes, I have my panties in a bunch.

[jonbuoy]

Thank god peter jacksons making it and not any other hollywood director, or it would have been re-written as an american plan with brits just lending a hand.

[sAsLEX]

Actually, it doesn't. it was the term applied to the African slaves as they came from the Niger Delta. Hence the term "nigger" has evolved into a general decription of people with black skin.




Etymology

Main article: Negro

The Spanish word negro originates from the Latin word niger, meaning black. In English, negro or neger became negar and finally nigger, most likely under influence of French nègre. Neger (sometimes spelled "neggar") prevailed in northern New York under the Dutch and also in Philadelphia, in its Moravian and Pennsylvania Dutch communities. For example, the New York City African Burial Ground was originally known as "Begraaf Plaats van de Neger."

In the United States, the word nigger was not originally considered derogatory, but merely denotative of black, as it was in much of the world. In nineteenth-century American literature, there are many uses of the word nigger with no intended negative connotation (see below)



God I really do hate being wrong.

Get over yourself the word means black.
. .

[The_Dover]

I think I'm going to name the 750 "Nigger".

[dawnrazor]

I guess the "problem", PJ (who is not directing by the way, he is a poohjuicer:gob: Christian Rivers is the director) faces, and for that matter the film in general is being buggered if you do and buggered if you don't - and to that end they will choose a path of maximum media attention.

As to what they should do and as to what they will do, hey who knows.

But I reckon PJ should give the whole thing a miss and direct the Hobbit instead before the various actors needed are dead or too old, I mean the next indiana jones movie is looking like a pensioners day out at the seaside

[dawnrazor]

I think I'm going to name the 750 "Nigger".

we had a cat in england that my missus wanted to call 'nigger', it was decided that calling him for his dinner would become problematic as we lived in Brixton at the time. So we called him 'buck satan' instead, to the amusment of our muslim neighbours who probably thought it quite apt as he used to shit in their vegtable garden.

[The_Dover]

is cat shit halal?

[dawnrazor]

is cat shit halal?

what did you think a 'yam' was?

[Lil_Byte]

Shit how old are you? lol I can remember when a popsicle was 15c.

Shit you must be young I remember when they where 2 cents

Or does that work the other way around f*** I am getting old.

But yes call the dog nigger:Punk:

[Lil_Byte]

I just had a thought I will call my bike nigger cause she is a black bitch:done:

[The Pastor]

i thought orginally it was spelt niger and the offensive one was nigga

[Skyryder]

One thing about the English language and the words that make it up. Is their meanings change.

Regardless of the original meaning of the word nigger, today it is considered an offence noun. However having said that the context of the film is a historical one where the word did not have todays conatations and therefore the name of the dog Niggar should be used for this reason.
The dogs death was a symbolic forewarning in the original movie of the Dambusters. How this event played out in real life may have been completly different at the time.
It is however a crucial element in the story of the Dambusters and to change the dogs name makes a mockery of the bravery of those that were.............................. the DAMBUSTERS.

Skyryder


My old man knew one of those that went on the mission and survived.

[Krayy]

My daughter was deciding what top to wear yesterday and came out with:

"Eeenie meenie miney moe,
Catch a tigger by the toe,
...etc."

I had to catch myself before I corrected her and therefore freaked out her daycare teachers :shit:

[Krayy]

...The dogs death was a symbolic forewarning in the original movie of the Dambusters....
It would have been .... if he was thrown out of a speeding car and bounced along for a quarter mile before slamming into a wall :yes:

[Slingshot]

Duh, it's simple, just call it Boy, like "Heel boy", or "Fetch the stick boy!" or "where's my fucking dog". He doesnt' need to mention the name at all.

Nigger was also the codeword for the breach of the Mohne Dam! So if they change the dogs name...they'll also have to change the codeword.

Leave it they way it was I say!

[James Deuce]

It would have been .... if he was thrown out of a speeding car and bounced along for a quarter mile before slamming into a wall :yes:

There's a rumour that that is in fact what happened. There was no dog in the grave when the went to move it when they were closing the airbase either.

[jrandom]

the gassing of the kurds...

... and whey?

[jrandom]

Catch a tigger by the toe


bounced along for a quarter mile

But... That's What Tiggers Do!

[padre]

I believe its like this.

If Nigger was an important character in the story then his name (which must be a central tenet to his identity) must be rendered accurately. Same goes if the name bestowed on him teaches us something about the hero or antihero or the times that we need to grasp.

If however the Nigger dog did not shape history or influence the lead character then his name is of no import. So, in order to avoid "jarring" non white viewers (which could distract from the story by arousing rage emotions) you would then do one of 2 things.

Write nigger out, or simply have him referred to as "boy" or whistled at where communication is required. The story is everything. It comes first. The truth does not need to be told religiously. All renderings of it are selective ='s ART

[James Deuce]

Nigger is a huge part of the Story. Has anyone actually READ Paul Brichill's book, "The Dam Busters"?

http://www.amazon.com/Dam-Busters-Pan-Grand-Strategy/dp/0330376446

[Skyryder]

Nigger is a huge part of the Story. Has anyone actually READ Paul Brichill's book, "The Dam Busters"?

http://www.amazon.com/Dam-Busters-Pan-Grand-Strategy/dp/0330376446






Shortly after I saw the movie. Years ago can't recall much about the dog other than it always use to greet Gibson back from Ops. The dog was an important member of the squadron. That's about it.

I think there was some training crashes and a crew killed. Like I said years ago J2

Skyryder

[James Deuce]

It's brilliant and more a story of 617SQN than a Guy Gibson tribute.

Most libraries have one ;)

[Slingshot]

Nigger is a huge part of the Story. Has anyone actually READ Paul Brichill's book, "The Dam Busters"?

http://www.amazon.com/Dam-Busters-Pan-Grand-Strategy/dp/0330376446







This used to be my bedtime story when I was 6 or 7 years old, still remember getting excited each night when the old man would come into the room, tuck me in and then read me the next couple of pages.
I probably didn't understand any of it at that age but since then I've read the book a number of times.
I love this story and I was stoked when I heard the film was being re-made.

[Ixion]

Nigger doesn't mean black - it means 4/5ths human. It was used as justification for enslaving africans and transporting them to USA, if they could convince themselves that africans were partly animal then it was acceptable (according to an American Studies Lecturer at Canterbury University I sat next to on a plane once, long flight...)

Which is not to say they should rename the dog, no point rewriting history (like Japan does in it's school text books with regard to WW2)

No offense to you or the Lecturer, but that's a total load of cobblers.

[Mr. Peanut]

A little imagination in the wardrobe department could avoid the issue entirely.

[Jamezo]

yo wat up?