Insomnia Sucks!!

[Fishy]

For as long as I can remember I have always had problems with getting enough sleep.

I have problems falling asleep at night and wake up a lot during the night and then have trouble falling back to sleep again. On a good night I will probably fall asleep in about 45mins to an hour and normally wake up between 3-6 times a night, on a bad night I just can't fall asleep at all and have been like this for several days on end.

I have tried so many things from, aids such as herbal tea, reading, warm bath, massage, etc etc and have been to the doctors on several occassions and ended up getting sleeping pills "Imovane" which are bloody excellent and help everytime but I just don't want to have to rely on a little white pill to get to sleep.

I am health, fit, and don't really get stressed out but the only thing that keeps me awake at night is the fear of not sleeping again and it keeps me awake. I have tried thinking about nothing, counting sheep etc etc which none of works

Has anyone else here had really bad sleeping problems and what have you done to help in the long term?

I have heard about sleep clinics which I am gonna ask my doctor about and see whats involved and what the cost is, but I am at the point where some nights I just want to head butt the wall until I knock myself out just to fall asleep.

:yawn: :yawn: :yawn: :sleep: :sleep: :zzzz: :zzzz:

[Paul in NZ]

When you find the answer let us all know made - I used to sleep like a log but the last few years - sheesh...

[Fishy]

Man it sucks!, I am sick of feeling run down and tired all the time, it just brings you down and makes you irritable and grumpy.

[Squeak the Rat]

For falling asleep:


Go to bed when you are tired, after 10pm
Get up at the same time each morning even if you haven't slept well
If you can't fall asleep within 20 minutes get out of bed and stay out for at least 15 minutes. Do not watch TV - it's too stimulating.
Don't use your bed for anything other than sex or sleep. IE don't read in bed or watch tv.
Make sure your room is quiet (easier said than done in some cases).
Invest in a good firm bed and pillows.
Don't do vigorous exercise after 6pm.
Don't drink booze, it'll help you fall asleep but will wake you up in the early hours of the morning.
Avoid coffee etc after 2pm.
Set aside a worry time to worry about shit during the evening.


Some tricks for falling asleep:

Relaxation techniques such as breathing etc
Lie in bed and tell yourself to stay awake. (reverse psychology)
others that i cant think of right now.


Staying asleep.

This is the biggie.

If you've been taking zopiclone/imovane for ages this represses your REM sleep. When you STOP taking this you get rebound insomnia and you start dreaming shitloads and waking more. Try reducing the dose gradually, and accept you will have restless nights for a period after stopping.
Make sure you don't sleep with the duvet up around your face, some people have breathing difficulties caused by breathing into the duvet and sucking back in CO2.
Breathing difficulties can cause you to wake in the middle of the night.
Waking in the night is quite often a symptom of depression. If you are having problems getting to sleep this may indicate anxiety aswell which can be related. It might be worth seeing a doctor or pscychologist for some advice like CBT.



Hope some of this helps. I'm having sleep problems following a head injury and diving accident, PM me if you want any more info or to chat....

[Edit:] If your doctor has been prescribing zoplicone for a longish period of time without attempting to find the underlying cause I'd seriously recommend visiting a different GP. Ask around friends colleagues etc for a good doctor, else try to find someone who is the same sex and 5-10 years older than you (more chance they've been through what you go through).

[MrMelon]

Is your diet good?
Got lots of stress in your life?
Do you do enough exercise that it makes you physically tired regularly?
Don't try and go to bed till you're actually tired. I find reading a book for 30 mins before trying to get to sleep can help. Washing tv or sitting on the net doesn't help though.
Maybe trying some meditation? Clearing your mind properly works wonders compared to just thinking about nothing. Although sometimes that still doesn't help me get to sleep.

Failing that, get hold of some of some herbal sleeping remedy.

[pervert]

Failing that, get hold of some of some herbal sleeping remedy.

I concur...

You sir, are a smart man! :rockon:

[Fishy]

Thanks for your help mate, I have already tried most of this and/or am currently already doing. See below for my answers to your points....
For falling asleep:


Go to bed when you are tired, after 10pm

Normally tired as soon as I get home but don't go to bed until around this time.

Get up at the same time each morning even if you haven't slept well

Yep do this every week day but weekends I get up about two hours later.

If you can't fall asleep within 20 minutes get out of bed and stay out for at least 15 minutes. Do not watch TV - it's too stimulating.

Have tried getting up and reading a book, but hasn't really worked for me.

Don't use your bed for anything other than sex or sleep. IE don't read in bed or watch tv.

Check.

Make sure your room is quiet (easier said than done in some cases).

Check

Invest in a good firm bed and pillows.

Check

Don't do vigorous exercise after 6pm.

Check

Don't drink booze, it'll help you fall asleep but will wake you up.

Only on weekends but not every weekend

Avoid coffee etc after 2pm.

Check

Set aside a worry time to worry about shit during the evening.

Never tried this, but will give it a go.



Some tricks for falling asleep:

Relaxation techniques such as breathing etc

Haven't tried this but should.

Lie in bed and tell yourself to stay awake. (reverse psychology)

Haha haven't tried this but will give it a go, should be interesting.



Staying asleep.

This is the biggie.

If you've been taking zopiclone/imovane for ages this represses your REM sleep. When you STOP taking this you get rebound insomnia and you start dreaming shitloads and waking more. Try reducing the dose gradually, and accept you will have restless nights for a period after stopping.

I normally only get these from the doct like twice a year and only get 3 or 5 7.5mg tablets at a time, I only ever get enough to regain sleep if I haven't slept in a couple of days.

Make sure you don't sleep with the duvet up around your face, some people have breathing difficulties caused by breathing into the duvet and sucking back in CO2.

Check

Breathing difficulties can cause you to wake in the middle of the night.

Don't think I have any breathing problems?.

Waking in the night is quite often a symptom of depression. If you are having problems getting to sleep this may indicate anxiety aswell which can be related. It might be worth seeing a doctor or pscychologist for some advice like CBT.

Didn't know this, maybe I should see my doc.

[Fishy]

Is your diet good?
Got lots of stress in your life?
Do you do enough exercise that it makes you physically tired regularly?
Don't try and go to bed till you're actually tired. I find reading a book for 30 mins before trying to get to sleep can help. Washing tv or sitting on the net doesn't help though.
Maybe trying some meditation? Clearing your mind properly works wonders compared to just thinking about nothing. Although sometimes that still doesn't help me get to sleep.

Failing that, get hold of some of some herbal sleeping remedy.

Yep, have a very good diet and being a personal trainer I am pretty fit and exercise a lot. Don't really have anything on my mind that I stress about, I'm not really one to get stressed. Have tried the other things apart from meditation.

As for the herbal remedy, yes I have tried that several times in the past but it hasn't worked either.

[pervert]

As for the herbal remedy, yes I have tried that several times in the past but it hasn't worked either.

That would depend on injestion amounts, did you try spots? :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

[The_Dover]

worked for me and boomer on the weekend.......

also have a wank, it works too.

[Fishy]

That would depend on injestion amounts, did you try spots? :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

just about every which way is possible and still no luck.

[Fishy]

worked for me and boomer on the weekend.......

also have a wank, it works too.

Yeah heaps of people reckon that but still no sleepy.

[The_Dover]

fuck mate, come round to my place and if you make it home then you DO have a sleep disorder....

[EDIT: I was referring to spots rather than a circle jerk btw]

[Fishy]

fuck mate, come round to my place and if you make it home then you DO have a sleep disorder....


hahaha I haven't smoked in a few years now...maybe thats just what I need (short term). Would like to figure out something that may help long term.

[SpeedyGirl]

If you find any great remedys let me know toooo...... i sleep badly most of the time as well :zzzz:

[pervert]

hahaha I haven't smoked in a few years now...maybe thats just what I need (short term). Would like to figure out something that may help long term.

Haha for sure, if 6 or 7 dots of bomb-diggidy skunk doesn't make you tired I don't know what will...

[WRT]

Go for a ride (although . . . did I see a thread a little while ago saying you were selling your bike?). Have you got a decent set of twisties near by?

When I was in the worst of my insomnia, I'd tried pretty much everything you've mentioned and the only thing that would allow me to sleep was a good blast. Unfortunately, I was living in Pt Chev at the time, the best I found was up the North Western, then a "spirited" ride thru past Kaukop and across to Welsford and then a leisurely cruise back down the Northern. Admittedly, at 1am+, it didnt take that long . . . :whistle:

Guaranteed tho, I'd get home, crawl out of my gear, and fall asleep within minutes.

[hXc]

Fishy, and others that have admitted sleeping problems, I know how you feel. I too have sleeping troubles. It started with the shocking suicide of my best friend, and that was over a year ago. I haven't slept well, or consistently well since then.

I usually listen to music at night, because I start sketching out if in silence, but it won't be heavy. Enigma is my latest choice, and it is pretty good. And to those saying that silence is best, for me, that doesn't work. I can't work or concentrate in silence, and music is always an escape for me. Pink Floyd will be my next choice, I think.

I would love to go for a ride at night to relax. But being 15, and on a restricted lisence, that's not really possible. Especially with school the next day.

I usually get to bed around 9:30, and get to sleep around 11:30 - 12:30. Then, I wake up at anywhere between 7 and 7:15, for school. This is a real problem for me. I go to school tired and can't concentrate in 1st period. 2nd period is usually pretty goor, then food at interval, 3rd period is alright, lunch, then 4th is not great, and 5th if just pointless. With exams coming up, this is not ideal.

Just stick in there guys, and girls. Eventually, it will subside. Well, I hope it does.

[Clivoris]

Mate,
that's a toughie. Squeek has posted some excellent advice but there are heaps of possible reasons for sleep problems: unresolved issues (current or historical), physiology (some people just sleep differently due to biology), anxiety or depression, lifestyle issues, snoring and sleep apnoea (sp), and on and on. If you can get into a sleep clinic that would be the way to go. They can assess the whole shebang. If you are someone who tends to worry or ruminate then the quiet time when we try to get to sleep is prime time to indulge in this. It might be worth seeing a psychologist to change this tendency but you could also try a gentle breathing/relaxation strategy when trying to get off to sleep or back to sleep.
There are infinite varieties but a couple I use are:

Gently counting from 1 to 3 on the inbreath, then the same on the outbreath. This is all you give attention to, nothing else is important. Worrying about getting to sleep is irrelevant, you always get to sleep but not necessarily when you want to. You will get distracted by thoughts and worries but learn to acknowledge that you got distracted and gently return to the counting. Keep doing this as long and as often as you need to. This probably wont be very easy unless you have a well disciplined mind but it is something that will improve with practice. One of the tricks is not to get too uptight about the practice. Get distracted? That's o.k. Just return to the counting. If you are physically tired you will go off to sleep.
Another variation on this is to count to 1 (not out loud of course) on the inbreath, then gently say "I am calm" on the outbreath. Then 2 on the inbreath and "I am calm" on the outbreath. Some people go back to 1 after reaching 10, some just keep going to get a sense of how long it is taking them. Both these methods use distraction tasks that don't take too much effort but require enough attention to distract from worry. Again it is important to accept distraction and gently return to the exercise.
Some people have success with gently distracting alphabet games e.g. How many motorcycles can you think of for each letter of the alphabet. Start at A and move through the alphabet. Problem with this type of thing is that it might engage too much attention and get you too interested or aroused.

Remembering positive or pleasurable events and replaying them in your mind can work, or indulging in a positive fantasy e.g. Lotto or fantasy job or holiday. Let your mind engage in quite a bit of detail if you can do this without geting too worked up. If you can defuse the worry about not getting to sleep this can obviously be really helpful. Remind yourself that you probably wouldn't be sleeping anyway so you might as well enjoy yourself, then go back to the pleasant memory etc.

This is a bit dodgy giving this kind of advice without a thorough assessment of the problem, but WTF, it's not costing you anything and there isn't any risk involved so you might want to give it a crack. Persistance really helps with these things but so does some coaching or support. A cheap way to develop some of these skills is to join a meditation group, but what I am suggesting is subtly different to meditation altough it does have overlaps.
Anyway, good luck mate. If you have questions feel free to post them or PM them. My other personality has a bit of experience in these kind of things.

[Shadows]

Washing tv ..... doesn't help though.

FUCK NO!!!! Far too stimulating. Especially if it is still plugged in.

[MVnut]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it .................lol:mellow:

[Timber020]

Try taking some magnesium, it can help, as we have a selenium and magnesium deficiency in the country, and lack of mag can keep you up

[Ronin]

I have discovered something that works for me. As I'm in a smallish flat and the lounge is next to my bedroom, I put the TV on very quietly and set the sleep timer. Then when Im in bed I have to strain to hear it. Within 5 mins Im out like a light.

[Motu]

I have a sleeping problem too - I had to stop on the way home tonight for a little snooze,I often do that if I start to nod off in the Pajero.A few days ago a customer had to wake me up to pay her bill.I get home and fall asleep if I sit down in a chair.I go to bed at midnight,get up at 5.45am,work from 7.00am to 6.00pm for 5 days,on saturday I only work for 5 hours these days.I've got no time for insomnia.

[Fishy]

Mate,
that's a toughie. Squeek has posted some excellent advice but there are heaps of possible reasons for sleep problems: unresolved issues (current or historical), physiology (some people just sleep differently due to biology), anxiety or depression, lifestyle issues, snoring and sleep apnoea (sp), and on and on. If you can get into a sleep clinic that would be the way to go. They can assess the whole shebang. If you are someone who tends to worry or ruminate then the quiet time when we try to get to sleep is prime time to indulge in this. It might be worth seeing a psychologist to change this tendency but you could also try a gentle breathing/relaxation strategy when trying to get off to sleep or back to sleep.
There are infinite varieties but a couple I use are:

Gently counting from 1 to 3 on the inbreath, then the same on the outbreath. This is all you give attention to, nothing else is important. Worrying about getting to sleep is irrelevant, you always get to sleep but not necessarily when you want to. You will get distracted by thoughts and worries but learn to acknowledge that you got distracted and gently return to the counting. Keep doing this as long and as often as you need to. This probably wont be very easy unless you have a well disciplined mind but it is something that will improve with practice. One of the tricks is not to get too uptight about the practice. Get distracted? That's o.k. Just return to the counting. If you are physically tired you will go off to sleep.
Another variation on this is to count to 1 (not out loud of course) on the inbreath, then gently say "I am calm" on the outbreath. Then 2 on the inbreath and "I am calm" on the outbreath. Some people go back to 1 after reaching 10, some just keep going to get a sense of how long it is taking them. Both these methods use distraction tasks that don't take too much effort but require enough attention to distract from worry. Again it is important to accept distraction and gently return to the exercise.
Some people have success with gently distracting alphabet games e.g. How many motorcycles can you think of for each letter of the alphabet. Start at A and move through the alphabet. Problem with this type of thing is that it might engage too much attention and get you too interested or aroused.

Remembering positive or pleasurable events and replaying them in your mind can work, or indulging in a positive fantasy e.g. Lotto or fantasy job or holiday. Let your mind engage in quite a bit of detail if you can do this without geting too worked up. If you can defuse the worry about not getting to sleep this can obviously be really helpful. Remind yourself that you probably wouldn't be sleeping anyway so you might as well enjoy yourself, then go back to the pleasant memory etc.

This is a bit dodgy giving this kind of advice without a thorough assessment of the problem, but WTF, it's not costing you anything and there isn't any risk involved so you might want to give it a crack. Persistance really helps with these things but so does some coaching or support. A cheap way to develop some of these skills is to join a meditation group, but what I am suggesting is subtly different to meditation altough it does have overlaps.
Anyway, good luck mate. If you have questions feel free to post them or PM them. My other personality has a bit of experience in these kind of things.


Thanks heaps for your advice there mate, some quite good info there!. I will definitely be trying out some of the techniques you have mentioned.

[Fishy]

Try taking some magnesium, it can help, as we have a selenium and magnesium deficiency in the country, and lack of mag can keep you up

I've already been taking both for years as part of a multi vit I take daily.

[Street Gerbil]

Sorry to hear about your problem mate! I am definitely having some problems with my sleep. Unfortunately they are mostly a result of Earth rotating too damn fast. Between work, sports, riding, and family there is not much time left for pushing Zs... :-(

[Fishy]

Ok last night I fell asleep in record time (about 15-20mins) but got woken up at 1:30am by the howling wind outside and it took me about an hour to get back to sleep. I woke up a couple more times but thats it, I normally wake up a lot during an average night but last night was only about 3 or 4 times and only one of those times took a while to get back to sleep (because I was worried that the wind was going to keep me awake).

What I did differently......

After dinner I thought about anything that may play on my mind so I wouldn't think about anything when I went to bed.

I went to bed a little later than normal

I read my book for a little longer than normal.

I tried to relax as much as possible.

I thought to myself, its ok if I don't get to sleep but I am calm, tired and this is going to be easy.

And it worked pretty well, I got about 6 hours sleep last night which is pretty damn good for me and am feeling a little more awake than usual so I'm going to try the same again tonight and see how it goes.

[The_Dover]

did you have a wank?

[Fishy]

did you have a wank?

haha last night, no.

[Big Dave]

haha last night, no.

'Nothing cures insomnia like the realization that it's time to get up.'

My clock works that I much prefer to work through the night and sleep in the mornings anyway.
Tried working the night shift somehow? Some of us find it agreeable.

[Fishy]

'Nothing cures insomnia like the realization that it's time to get up.'

My clock works that I much prefer to work through the night and sleep in the mornings anyway.
Tried working the night shift somehow? Some of us find it agreeable.

Nah, we don't have the option of working night shift where I work, 7:30am till 4pm, then was working in the gym from 4:30pm till 8pm.

[slimjim]

gee heaps of wicked help, fuck and if still not been able to change, "Tell Your Doctor you want to try "AMITRIPTLINE " used as a antidepressive....however more so now as a sleeping talbet, not for wacked minds but really does allow sleep,
and no the green stuff not works as mind is still in play mode,, me know been there o for fucken many a year haha

[Squeak the Rat]

gee heaps of wicked help, fuck and if still not been able to change, "Tell Your Doctor you want to try "AMITRIPTLINE " used as a antidepressive....however more so now as a sleeping talbet, not for wacked minds but really does allow sleep,
and no the green stuff not works as mind is still in play mode,, me know been there o for fucken many a year haha

This is an option but you're right it should be used if all other approaches don't work. AND it's best for the waking in the middle of the night problems - problems getting to sleep are best fixed by non-medicinal means.

And if you are waking in the middle of the night but getting to sleep ok, then WHY are you waking? Find the root cause - maybe it is depression and you need some modern SSRI's rather than a low dose of amitrip.

Personally I'm opposed to the idea of going to the quack and asking for a specific medication. Some people are able to do objective research independant of their GP, but even in this case I recommend asking your GP and using your research to validate their opinion or use for discussion.

Oh, and having a wank hypes me up by making me want to do a runner, not go to sleep.....

[Macktheknife]

the other thing you might consider is getting some natural melanin from the chemist or health store. This is a naturally occuring chemical in the body which helps to regulate the circadian rhythms of the body (sleep cycles). No side effects and works gently.
Also follow up on the sleep study as you may be experiencing sleep apnoea, which is where you stop breathing in your sleep for a few seconds, just enough for the body to go "huh?" and start to wake up which makes you breathe again. I suffered from it for years without knowing, sorted now but get it checked out. PM me if you want more details.

[Clivoris]

did you have a wank?

I did. Did it help? Maybe it's like transcendental meditation. If enough people do it at the same time it will cause world peace.:gob:

[Fishy]

And if you are waking in the middle of the night but getting to sleep ok, then WHY are you waking?


Waking is generally because I am a light sleeper and will wake quite easily if I hear any little noise or if Sarah moves around. I also tend to roll over quite a bit and I wake as i turn, this isn't due to an uncomfortable bed either as I roll around no matter what I sleep on.

I got quite a good sleep last night though, trying the same techniques as I did the night before but I went to bed a bit later again. I only woke once and that was because the wind blew something off the deck and it banged quite loudly but I fell back to sleep ok (within 5 mins)

[Finn]

My clock works that I much prefer to work through the night and sleep in the mornings anyway.

Clearly. This was your first post yesterday.

Tell me, did you even kiss your wife goodbye before you sent her away to make the bacon?