Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

[idleidolidyll]

a lot of club days dont have a bclass... so that cant be done

Club days provide MORE reason to allow all formats of bikes into a race. It gives you a chance to learn what lines to take in an environment where winning isn't as important

[Ixion]

Y'know, this whole argument is starting to sound exactly like the arguments about two strokes in racing, 40 years ago.

When MZ , and then Suzuki and Yamaha began challenging, then cleaning up races on their two strokes, there was a deal of grumbling from the riders of the older Norton, MV, Gilera, Moto Guzzi, Honda machines which had dominated racing in the 50s and early 60s. The two strokes took different lines, they braked differently, they were this and that.

The real problem was that the two stroke was simply too good, the four stroke coudn't compete. In the end, as we know, the two stroke was effectively banned from racing.Cos that was the ony way that four strokes could keep racing .Whether that was a good decision or not is always going to be debateable.

Can't help thinking that if motards are slower than conventional racers, then where's the problem (for the latter). If motards are faster, well is winning by changing the rule book really sporting?

EDIT. about the "foot down" controversy. In a slightly later era, some riders started sticking their knees out in corners and hanging off their bikes , instead of keeping their knees against the tank like the older riders. Wonder what would have happened if there had been a rule made at the time saying that "bums must be kept on seats, and none of this dangerous knee down stuff". ?

[Goblin]

Cant answer that one properly can you?

Ok answer this...

But we dont go in those classes cos we have our own class, 99% like it like that.
And as far as lines go and your comment... I take a different line on the Kat to the bucket and I take as bigger diferent line on the Guzzi to the bucket.
Like I said...each to their own. I take whatever lines feel right at the time, on the day. I thoroughly enjoyed racing with the motards and found it a great experience to battle with them, pass them, try to not let them get passed me again. Some did....some didn't. Was the same at the trackdays Ive done. Then I hear a few people moaning that the Motards fucked their lines up. Well Harden the fuck up! That's what racing is all about! If you're intimidated by the bigger bars, tallers bikes, foot out and all the rest of it then maybe you dont have what it takes to be a good racer.:done:

[scott411]

Then I hear a few people moaning that the Motards fucked their lines up. Well Harden the fuck up! That's what racing is all about! If you're intimidated by the bigger bars, tallers bikes, foot out and all the rest of it then maybe you dont have what it takes to be a good racer.:done:


clap clap clap clap, thank god someone said this, thank you,

if you faster than a person pass them, use your bike to its advantage, if its faster in a straight line smoke him and make sure you make him go around the outside in the next corner

[Denniso]

this thread seem's to have two oppinions that are poles appart, on one hand motards and on the other , people who are upset coz they can't beat them. Yes I'm biased I race a motard, but almost all my racing in the past has been on road bikes and yes I have raced against motards they are easy to get by if you care to take the time to find there weakness's. As for different lines 80% of F3 bikes use 2.5 m of track , 80 % of motards use only 1m of track. F3 bikes are so unpredictable it's hard to belive they stay on the track . Cross entering ; when I raced F3 I would normally also enter F1&2 cool more track time. Someone also said the were sick of being outbraked by motards , my RS 125 out braked any motard I found , as for sliding into corners I did more of that on my ZXR 400 & GSXR 1100. Foot out , in the way ,run it over if you can get close enough. Kick out motards? We should also kick out SV's (too fast too new) , (125 gp bikes too fast, brakes are too good) Ducati Supermono Too fast too expensive) Tigcraft 450 (too fast too innovative) Hell lets pick a average midpack rider and ban anybody that beats them. This is racing not flower aranging if you can't beat someone on the track push and learn how to then move on to the next faster rider. THE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS ARE FOUND OUTSIDE OUR COMFORT ZONE.:yes:

[Denniso]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!:rockon:

[Goblin]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!:rockon:

You're welcome!:headbang: We seem to be the minority.:innocent:

[Denniso]

You're welcome!:headbang: We seem to be the minority.:innocent:

I'm not sure that you are a minority I think that the vocal ones may be the minority as at the track you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

[Goblin]

....you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

I took my training wheels off long ago.:whistle:

[Rashika]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!:rockon:

umm did you actually read this thread from the beginning? Most road riders (racing) DONT have a problem with Motards...
I'm guessing not (tho I could be wrong) cos then you would know most dont have an issue with motards, a lot ride both.
Its more of a question about SHOULD they have there own classes instead of sharing all the others? A damn good idea (IMHO) cos then maybe we MIGHT get to see them compete against their peers, instead of such a huge variety that there seems to be developing in f3 (for eg).


I'm not sure that you are a minority I think that the vocal ones may be the minority as at the track you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy
funnily enough, the only squeaky wheel at the Nelson st races WAS a motard rider (and only 1 of the many there) who objected to ONLY having 5 races (as it turned out) compared to 3 or less for the other classes (one class only had 1 race!)

Mind you just wasting my fingers cos the 'pro motard brigade' (seeing as you like to put everyone in their boxes) have already decided that the road racers hate them.

[idleidolidyll]

Sorry I forgot to thank all the road riders that don't have a problem with motards YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!:rockon:

you're welcome

motards rock too

Here's a point for this argument:

I had a bad accident a few years ago, I broke my back. After a spinal op I was able to walk again and obviously ride my motorcycle again. However, there's no way at all that I could ever race in a motard race where some of the race is offroad.

Given that and given that I own a motard (previously the 640 now the 950), I would not be able to enter the motard only race and could only enter in F3 or in a motard race with no dirt section.

Should I be allowed to do so?

If the answer is yes, If I'm allowed to race a motard in F3, why shouldnt everyone whose bike qualifies?

[idleidolidyll]

I think you're right Ixion, it sounds more like tough cheese than a safety issue.

I reckon F3 will be all the poorer if there are no motards.

The problem in NZS is time and money. We don't have the sponsors to run top class events like GP racing where only 125's, 250's or GP1's are eligible and where we could run A classes and B classes.
We also don't have the time in a race weekend to have seperate classes for all sizes and styles of bikes.

By necessity we MUST mix the classes up or we will face alienating the core of racing in NZ; those people who are not sponsored and only own 1 bike to race.

That kinda happened early to mid eighties and because of that BEARs became a strong format. BEARs riders rode whatever they owned and old Nortons raced against new Ducatis etc with no complaints at all.
The best prize money in the country was on offer at the Sound of Thunder in the Sth Island and the most profit was made by the Corsair Club who ran it.

If the move to kick motards out of tyhe formula races gains ground we will face those same problems. How many in NZ can afford a REAL competitive 125 let alone a 250 or GP bike? What race meeting has the time to run more classes than we already have?

Hell, Wanganui was running about 90 mins late this year after just a few crashes. With more classes it'd be a nightmare!

[idleidolidyll]

The argument about how many races a rider can have smacks of jealousy rather than any real race issues.

If the bike meets the class specs and the rider pays the money, I reckon they should be able to ride in every class they're eligible for and if classes are to be limited, penalise the slow bikes not the motards.

If the 125 riders (for instance) want an exclusive 125 race they should take it upon themselves to draft more riders and bikes into it so they have the numbers to do so. Frankly, a 125 class with 5 bikes is a huge yawn.

Legislating a bike out of a class because it's popular is nonsense

[Toast]

well said and ya know what? that's a great way to learn to ride better in a race too
if all the bikes take the same lines and you follow them; you learn fuck all

I read a quote from an ex- world gp champ recently (somewhere in these forums I think), and he said that there is little point practicing the perfect line through a corner, as you'll only get to use it once or twice in a (20 lap) race.

Winning a time trial is a different thing to the racing that goes on with multiple bikes on track. Lines aren't always the same. If you get stuck behind someone it's annoying, but if you're faster, you've got to use your advantages to get past him.

The different lines argument is a load of arse to me. You even see times in a motoGP race where a rider has less corner speed and he changes his lines to block the rider following.

Think about it from a financial perspective too. More motards at the races means that race meets are more financially viable. Then, instead of PMCC hiring out the shitty old 1.1km or so track at Taupo, they might in future be able to afford to get the hot-shit international track.

I agree that if class numbers are too high, it will suck, but there are ways to allow motards in and still control the numbers.

[TonyB]

WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Which is exactly what the Motard riders are doing.

The thing is the impression I get is that many of them aren't doing it as part of clever race craft- I'm not talking about the guys that ride Motard regularly, more the dirt riders who fit their bikes out for a street race or big meeting. They are riding a very light bike with good brakes to get them braking deep into a corner and good torque to blast back out the other side. But in the middle of the corner they are using entirely the wrong technique- foot out, pushing the bike down into the corner and leaning out, ie making the bike and tyre work too hard- so their mid corner speed is crap. So they trip the road bikes up and then blast off using their torquey engines. THEY are having a great race, but anyone behind them on a near 200kg wet inline four 400 is caught in a bloody nightmare. Because there's not just one or two guys on dirt bikes buggering up their race, there are sometimes upwards of 10. Street races are often only 4 to 6 laps. If youre at Greymouth and your CBR400 gets stuck behind 5 or 6 modern dirt bikes which are lighter, and have powerful and flexible engines, you are going to have to be one hell of a good rider to get past them and still have any hope of a podium.

[dangerous]

I'm not sure that you are a minority I think that the vocal ones may be the minority as at the track you always hear from the squeeky wheel not the other three that are happy

ohh I think they are just look at the poll results.


Well Harden the fuck up! That's what racing is all about! If you're intimidated by the bigger bars, tallers bikes, foot out and all the rest of it then maybe you dont have what it takes to be a good racer.:done:

LMFAO... you are so green girl, I cant wait till you arse off and relise that racing isent just a game, I sooner stay in one piece than harden up, thats just a silly girl remark... and im 1st to admit that I may not have what it takes to WIN but Ill tell you this... I have what it takes t be a good racer... and thats a racer that stays in one piece.


WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Hell, they could do it just by intentionally slowing down in front of you then accelerating away. Smart racers understand ALL the options.

I think you need to see how the SI F4 guys ride, a smart rider wouldnt let that F2 bike get in front so it wouldnt be an issue.

Also, its not always about winning mate, once again down here we like to have fun and stay on top of the bike (unlike it seems NI riders) so we get back to the safty thing... Tards in formula


A) and if that is all you do every lap you've probably never won a race and may never do so.


B) If you've watched closely guys like Chrisa Haldane etc often have the rear wheel in the air under braking and slide out under power. They spend less time cranked over and more time on the throttle.

a) well thats were you are sadley wrong fella, I have and intend to do so yet again.
b) FFS mate, you need to come and watch us race... you will never say that we dont get a tad excited at times, we dont have the power to slid the back out thats a silly comparision, but I tell ya what we slid all over the show and many a time I have thoughty its all over Rover.


So what class where you in when you were racing against Motards then? Were you on your bucket or Kat?
And wouldnt the Kat be F1 not F2?

FFS, Im the shit stirer here Gav... but I cant resist (as you knew I wouldent) whats ya bloody point big fella?

Now... I have no problem racing with retards, it is fun like some say, however the numbers are getting to big and that becomes a safty thing, give them there own class like I have mine for F4 and post classic.

[idleidolidyll]

I read a quote from an ex- world gp champ recently (somewhere in these forums I think), and he said that there is little point practicing the perfect line through a corner, as you'll only get to use it once or twice in a (20 lap) race.

Winning a time trial is a different thing to the racing that goes on with multiple bikes on track. Lines aren't always the same. If you get stuck behind someone it's annoying, but if you're faster, you've got to use your advantages to get past him.

The different lines argument is a load of arse to me. You even see times in a motoGP race where a rider has less corner speed and he changes his lines to block the rider following.

Think about it from a financial perspective too. More motards at the races means that race meets are more financially viable. Then, instead of PMCC hiring out the shitty old 1.1km or so track at Taupo, they might in future be able to afford to get the hot-shit international track.

I agree that if class numbers are too high, it will suck, but there are ways to allow motards in and still control the numbers.

Spot on!
There are lots of 'fast' street riders who would never win a race because they have no idea how to get through race traffic (by taking different lines etc)

Stuff it up the inside, lose speed but fuck up the other guys exit line: seen it done all the time in pukka GP racing. One riders are never champions

[idleidolidyll]

Oops, typo

One LINE riders are never champions

[idleidolidyll]

dear dangerous,

all i can do is laugh hilariously

a bucket can keep an F2 bike behind ROTFLMFAO!!

Given equal riders that's utter nonsense

so ya reckon you're a winner but you whine that those darn motards take different lines?

how do you win WITHOUT taking different lines? If you have the answer don't bother sending it to me, send it to the factory teams, it's something they'll pay handsomely for

ROTFLMFAO!! You're funny

[idleidolidyll]

Which is exactly what the Motard riders are doing.

The thing is the impression I get is that many of them aren't doing it as part of clever race craft- I'm not talking about the guys that ride Motard regularly, more the dirt riders who fit their bikes out for a street race or big meeting. They are riding a very light bike with good brakes to get them braking deep into a corner and good torque to blast back out the other side. But in the middle of the corner they are using entirely the wrong technique- foot out, pushing the bike down into the corner and leaning out, ie making the bike and tyre work too hard- so their mid corner speed is crap. So they trip the road bikes up and then blast off using their torquey engines. THEY are having a great race, but anyone behind them on a near 200kg wet inline four 400 is caught in a bloody nightmare. Because there's not just one or two guys on dirt bikes buggering up their race, there are sometimes upwards of 10. Street races are often only 4 to 6 laps. If youre at Greymouth and your CBR400 gets stuck behind 5 or 6 modern dirt bikes which are lighter, and have powerful and flexible engines, you are going to have to be one hell of a good rider to get past them and still have any hope of a podium.

duh! that's called racing mate.
don't penalise people for making smarter choices than you
blocking lines are as valid in a race as slipstreaming, if ya can't beat them it's your problem not thiers

[Sketchy_Racer]

Read what Dangerous says a again III

you and the motarders, Still, dont get the message.

WE (that is Forumula racers) Do not want you in OUR class. Get the picture? Pretty fucken simple huh?

MOTARDERS would bitch endlessly if i entered a Formula bike into YOUR class, So why different rules for you? ('you' as in motard riders)

When there is NOT enough Motards, Put them in F3, but they get a different flag drop. (Less than 10 motards)

More than that, have your own class and fucken stay in it.


don't penalise people for making smarter choices than you

So How about everyone go buy a motard, then we can completly get rid of every other racing class in NZ. GOOD ONE



Mumble mumble fucking idiot mumble

[idleidolidyll]

Read what Dangerous says a again III

you and the motarders, Still, dont get the message.

WE (that is Forumula racers) Do not want you in OUR class. Get the picture? Pretty fucken simple huh?

MOTARDERS would bitch endlessly if i entered a Formula bike into YOUR class, So why different rules for you? ('you' as in motard riders)

When there is NOT enough Motards, Put them in F3, but they get a different flag drop. (Less than 10 motards)

More than that, have your own class and fucken stay in it.



So How about everyone go buy a motard, then we can completly get rid of every other racing class in NZ. GOOD ONE



Mumble mumble fucking idiot mumble

No, YOU don't get it: It's THIER class too.

If there are 11 'F' bikes and 40 motards in a race, I'd like to hear what THEY have to say and we aint hearing it here. Obviously THEY reckon they SHOULD be allowed to race since their bikes meet the specification

most motarders wouldn't bitch if a formula bike entered their race; they'd laugh at just how stupid your choice was

once again, this sounds a lot like sour grapes than a real safety issue

[Sketchy_Racer]

No, YOU don't get it: It's THIER class too.

No, its not.


If there are 11 'F' bikes and 40 motards in a race, I'd like to hear what THEY have to say and we aint hearing it here. Obviously THEY reckon they SHOULD be allowed to race since their bikes meet the specification
Well of course they would. Everyones Selfish. Thats not the point, the point is, if there is 40 of them, they can fuck off to thier own class


most motarders wouldn't bitch if a formula bike entered their race; they'd laugh at just how stupid your choice was
haha, fuck off, they would bitch worse than Me


once again, this sounds a lot like sour grapes than a real safety issue

Not Sooo, much a saftey issue, (although, it IS and has been before)

But yes, If they have thier own class, they can fuck off, and let others enjoy racing agaisnt their own, rather and Dodging Chook chasers

[dangerous]

dear dangerous,

all i can do is laugh hilariously

a bucket can keep an F2 bike behind ROTFLMFAO!!

Given equal riders that's utter nonsense

so ya reckon you're a winner but you whine that those darn motards take different lines?

how do you win WITHOUT taking different lines? If you have the answer don't bother sending it to me, send it to the factory teams, it's something they'll pay handsomely for

ROTFLMFAO!! You're funny

Thank you.. I aim to please, now smell the coffee
Yes part was a PT, however were you say "so ya reckon you're a winner but you whine that those darn motards take different lines?
No I said I have won and tend to do so again, I take a different line all the time hell I dont even use brakeing markers (I know thats dodgy of me) I arnt agree with you about having to change ya line in order to get ahead.. BUT the Motard rider changes line all of a sudden as in locks it up (I know not all) and fucks off, theres no way I can do that cos for one the bucket has no rear brakes and the Kat... well 80's brakes never did work did they... ok wondering off again... yes we all change our lines, but the average tard rider is capible of doing what a formula bike cant do, and never will do as they were never desinged to do.

Ya being a bit darft by saying "how do you win WITHOUT taking different lines?
it would look rathe silly if we all took the same line to an exact line... kinda like watching a family of ducks waddle around the track or cross the road aye... I think you are taking the term 'same line' a bit to... well some bloody thing, after all even Gav would know that ya cant pass if ya dont change ya line... maybe if we were to say a Motard 'handles' different rather than takes a different line... would that help our argument and post count? :scooter:


No, YOU don't get it: It's THIER class too.


yeah it is at the moment... no worries, BUT this discussion is about giving them there own class in the future

[idleidolidyll]

It's been fun sparring with ya but I have shit to do

remember, opinions are like arseholes: everyone has them, you, me, everyone

someone offered the old saying: "the squeaky hinge gets the oil"

Lots of squeaky hinges here, I hope the motarders squeak a bit too or they're likely to see the loudest whiners get their way

[gav]

Yeah, and some arseholes have opinions! :yes:
So how many classes are Motards going to get? After all can't have them all in one class, imagine a 125 two stroke MXer against a 950 KTM? Thats not fair is it?

[idleidolidyll]

you really do don't ya

[Rashika]

elicit a response?
actually no, just a red rep from that poster.... whos the ones with the towering ego... errr wtf is that? ;)
funny how constructive criticism just doesn't work for some people? maybe the truth just hurts too much

The argument about how many races a rider can have smacks of jealousy rather than any real race issues.

actually no, it smacks of discrimination against one group (or in this case several) and for another... didn't we pay the same money to race? Why should we not have the same time on the track? I didn't see that advert saying 'MOTARD RACING, with a few others chucked in for good measure'


....Given that and given that I own a motard (previously the 640 now the 950), I would not be able to enter the motard only race and could only enter in F3 or in a motard race with no dirt section.

Should I be allowed to do so?

If the answer is yes, If I'm allowed to race a motard in F3, why shouldnt everyone whose bike qualifies?
as the others have said about the F3ers i guess you would have to "harden the fuck up" and only race in the motard class, if Motards only had their own class... but you are talking of road racing correct? so where would the offroad bit be anyway?
Doesn't exist at the track... yet...but it would be pretty cool to see that ;)

It's been fun sparring with ya but I have shit to do

remember, opinions are like arseholes: everyone has them, you, me, everyone

damn it would be a boring place if we didn't huh! :Punk:
Actually given that I dont race F3, tho technically I could... I guess it is all moot for me, still I am enjoying seeing everyones opinions of it all. Will be curious to see where things head over the coming couple of years at the track.

[Rashika]

Yeah, and some arseholes have opinions! :yes:
So how many classes are Motards going to get? After all can't have them all in one class, imagine a 125 two stroke MXer against a 950 KTM? Thats not fair is it?

sounds a little like the postclassic 250s vs the 1100s?

[bistard]

No, YOU don't get it: It's THIER class too.


most motarders wouldn't bitch if a formula bike entered their race; they'd laugh at just how stupid your choice was

once again, this sounds a lot like sour grapes than a real safety issue

Look at the moaning & bitching that went on from the Motarders last year at Paeroa when Jason Easton ran his Tigcraft & it runs a 450 dirt bike motor
I have raced against Motards for years now,while the class was being built up,they were fine in the Formula classes,but now they have huge following & have there own class,the speed & technology has caught up,they are just downright dangerous & should stick to themselves
Great spectacle,different style,hate to say it different mentality!!

[ManDownUnder]

Given that and given that I own a motard (previously the 640 now the 950), I would not be able to enter the motard only race and could only enter in F3 or in a motard race with no dirt section.

Should I be allowed to do so?

If the answer is yes, If I'm allowed to race a motard in F3, why shouldnt everyone whose bike qualifies?

Not necessarily. Your injury precludes you from racing in a Motad race (complete with dirt section) but does not translate to an entitlement to change eligibility of entrants for a class of race you like the look of.

What if I lost the use of my legs so could only drive a (fast) hand controlled car? Am I ok to enter in the F1 races if I'm about as quick as they are?

[NordieBoy]

Not necessarily. Your injury precludes you from racing in a Motad race (complete with dirt section) but does not translate to an entitlement to change eligibility of entrants for a class of race you like the look of.

So Darren Heeman could only race in the motards on his DR400?

[ManDownUnder]

So Darren Heeman could only race in the motards on his DR400?

Gimme the background - I don't know who you're talking about.

[Goblin]

LMFAO... you are so green girl, I cant wait till you arse off....
You know the funny thing is....often when people say this sort of thing...it happens to them instead. And the other funny thing is that you're just as green as me but you talk like you know it ALL!

[NordieBoy]

Gimme the background - I don't know who you're talking about.

Races a big bore Harley and a DR400.

[ManDownUnder]

Races a big bore Harley and a DR400.
Ta


So Darren Heeman could only race in the motards on his DR400?

Yes! IMHO both rider and vehicle need to be fit to the rules of the class, and need to conform to those requirements. I understand the rider needs a race licence and I understand the bike needs to be a Motard (however that is defined).

Who knows that might also preclude the DR.

The nub of the issue for me is that the F3 roadbikes don't seem to have a pure race class of their own (i.e. if they just want to race each other - they can't. They've had the Motards forced upon them.

I might be wrong there?

What about the Motards? Do any riders have issues racing with the F3 bikes (or can they choose to only enter the pure Motard races complete with III's dirt section)?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Read what Dangerous says a again III

you and the motarders, Still, dont get the message.

WE (that is Forumula racers) Do not want you in OUR class. Get the picture? Pretty fucken simple huh?

MOTARDERS would bitch endlessly if i entered a Formula bike into YOUR class, So why different rules for you? ('you' as in motard riders)

When there is NOT enough Motards, Put them in F3, but they get a different flag drop. (Less than 10 motards)

More than that, have your own class and fucken stay in it.



So How about everyone go buy a motard, then we can completly get rid of every other racing class in NZ. GOOD ONE



Mumble mumble fucking idiot mumble

Like I mentioned in an earlier post mate.......saying "we were here first.." is hardly a good enough reason to push them out of your class.

But I do agree with some people's gripes regarding some of the way SOME motards are being ridden. Just beacuse the motard guys and gals see the 'experts' going sideways everywhere on TV, they feel that's the way they need to be ridden.....so they do their 'best' to look all crossed up and sideways. But at a lot of tracks that's simply not the fast way round, and in fact, does fuck up others lines and drive etc.....others even going the fast way round on motard bikes. I've spoken with Aaaron Slight about it, as you may remember he rode a CRF 450 at Wanganui a couple of years back....and he agrees with me....sideways IS NOT the fast way round that place.....

I've raced both 'proper' road race bikes AND motards over the years.....and can see both sides of the coin. But I'm afraid that you're always gonna have people on motards now that think sideways is the way....and yeah....they're fucking everyone off.....we have enough bikes no to do our own thing....lets just leave the tar babies alone.....

For the record.....I wouldn't give a toss if you tar babies wanted to come and race in 'my' class in either moto-x or motard....good luck to ya....hope your radiator is well protected from the rocks and shit I'll spit in your face!:Punk:

[sAsLEX]

I've spoken with Aaaron Slight about it, as you may remember he rode a CRF 450 at Wanganui a couple of years back....and he agrees with me....sideways IS NOT the fast way round that place.....


Well that guy Briggs......

Is amazing to watch as he backs it in to turn one from further and further out during the meets (05 didnt make it last year)

But then again he can normally afford to loose a little time what with the rest of the chook chasers following in his wake

[Crasherfromwayback]

Well that guy Briggs......

Is amazing to watch as he backs it in to turn one from further and further out during the meets (05 didnt make it last year)

But then again he can normally afford to loose a little time what with the rest of the chook chasers following in his wake

Well at the risk of sounding like a dreamer mate.....I have no doubt WHATSOEVER that if my stock RMZ450 made as much HP as his factory KTM660 (half as big again) I'd have no trouble dispatching him riding round Wanganui with my WHEELS IN LINE.

[bistard]

Well at the risk of sounding like a dreamer mate.....I have no doubt WHATSOEVER that if my stock RMZ450 made as much HP as his factory KTM660 (half as big again) I'd have no trouble dispatching him riding round Wanganui with my WHEELS IN LINE.

Hey pete,thats if you could make it past that bloody bridge!!
Hehehe
But I agree,hanging the back out it not the fast way through a corner

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hey pete,thats if you could make it past that bloody bridge!!
Hehehe
But I agree,hanging the back out it not the fast way through a corner

Well somebody moved that fucking bridge mate.....I'm sure it used to be further back!:innocent:

For sure round some corners on SOME motard type tracks....but nowhere round Wanganui.....Briggs and the other top boys make it look great, and are still going really quick...but further down the feild....they're getting in everyones way. I know this, as when I rode there in '05', I was gridded 9th, and clawed my way up to 5th I think it was when I ate straw....and the amount of time lost trying to get through the 'sideways jockeys' was frustrating to say the least!:scooter:

[bistard]

Well somebody moved that fucking bridge mate.....I'm sure it used to be further back!:innocent:

For sure round some corners on SOME motard type tracks....but nowhere round Wanganui.....Briggs and the other top boys make it look great, and are still going really quick...but further down the feild....they're getting in everyones way. I know this, as when I rode there in '05', I was gridded 9th, and clawed my way up to 5th I think it was when I ate straw....and the amount of time lost trying to get through the 'sideways jockeys' was frustrating to say the least!:scooter:


Yes,I can relate to that,try it on a 18 year old ZXR400,a pain in the arse,cause those big singles get off a corner !!

[Crasherfromwayback]

Yes,I can relate to that,try it on a 18 year old ZXR400,a pain in the arse,cause those big singles get off a corner !!

They don't bounce well enough for my liking mate....

[idleidolidyll]

You know the funny thing is....often when people say this sort of thing...it happens to them instead. And the other funny thing is that you're just as green as me but you talk like you know it ALL!

rotflmfao!

[idleidolidyll]

what lots here seem to be missing is that a supermotard is a road bike.

actually it's a road bike far better designed for NZ roads than almost any other kind.

fucked if i'm interested in riding a 17" wheeled bike with slicks off road and as anyone can see by the way the gingerly ride them on the silly dirt sections we've seen so far: thay handle like shit on dirt

[Crasherfromwayback]

what lots here seem to be missing is that a supermotard is a road bike.

actually it's a road bike far better designed for NZ roads than almost any other kind.

fucked if i'm interested in riding a 17" wheeled bike with slicks off road and as anyone can see by the way the gingerly ride them on the silly dirt sections we've seen so far: thay handle like shit on dirt

Mate......they're surprisingly good on dirt! I rode at Taupo a while ago in near axle deep mud with barely cut slicks.....no sweat.....just gotta do everything really gently!:scooter:

[dangerous]

the other funny thing is that you're just as green as me but you talk like you know it ALL!

rotflmfao!

Gobs: How many stamps are in your 'current' MNZ licence??? (if you have one) I have 28... includes 3 S/I tracks and 3 street races...
I am also the President of a Motor Cycle Racing Club... You dont get to do these things if you are green, and I sure as hell dont know it all and hope I never do. :scooter:

[SixPackBack]

* And the pissing contest continues:zzzz: *

[Goblin]

I am also the President of a Motor Cycle Racing Club... You dont get to do these things if you are green, and I sure as hell dont know it all and hope I never do. :scooter:
Well you must know most of it if you were voted president! :laugh:

I still stand by my belief that Motards ROCK and when I get one I'm gunna come down there and carve you up and put you off your precious flowing lines! hehehe...:headbang:

[gav]

Gobs: How many stamps are in your 'current' MNZ licence??? (if you have one) I have 28... includes 3 S/I tracks and 3 street races...
I am also the President of a Motor Cycle Racing Club... You dont get to do these things if you are green, and I sure as hell dont know it all and hope I never do. :scooter:
:innocent: Yeah right, Prez......like anyone with any "experience" was going to volunteer for that number........:chase: :nya:

[Goblin]

:innocent: Yeah right, Prez......like anyone with any "experience" was going to volunteer for that number........:chase: :nya:
:laugh: :laugh: :killingme

[gav]

So whats next, kicking out mini motards from the bucket class?
This is from the 2 hour race in Auckland recently.

[NordieBoy]

fucked if i'm interested in riding a 17" wheeled bike with slicks off road and as anyone can see by the way the gingerly ride them on the silly dirt sections we've seen so far: thay handle like shit on dirt

Nah, just wind it open...

[Bykmad]

If you want to ride an Off Roader, ride it. Off Road. If you want to Motard it, Motard it, but dont expect to enter every class at a Road Race meeting on an Off Road Bike. Imagine if Jared Love, Hayden Fitzgerald, Craig Shirriffs etc decided to enter their Road Race bikes in Motard, which under the current rules they can, look at Jason Easton at Paeroa last year when he couldnt get an entry in F3 class. If you race an off roader, race in the off road class!

[gav]

Umm, a Motard qualifies for F3 as per current regulations, notice that a 125GP isnt actually eligible for F3. :yes: http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Appendix_B_Formula_Three_Championship_Regulations. pdf

However a road bike is not eligible for Supermotard. http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/Chapter_34_Super_Motard.pdf

This is as per the actual regulations set down by Motorcycling New Zealand. The Motard guys arent breaking any rules as far as machine eligibililty goes, the riding "style" of some of those riders may be questioned however.

[idleidolidyll]

Gobs: How many stamps are in your 'current' MNZ licence??? (if you have one) I have 28... includes 3 S/I tracks and 3 street races...
I am also the President of a Motor Cycle Racing Club... You dont get to do these things if you are green, and I sure as hell dont know it all and hope I never do. :scooter:

being the prez often just means you were the only mug to offer your services

i've been national prez mate, i know the process

and as for stamps; i ride bikes, i'm not into philately.
who gives a fuck about a 'current' licence? does your 'current' stamp collection make you better than simon crafar, gareme crosby or a hundred other fabulous riders who probably don't even HAVE a current licence? i KNOW there's a few here.

i'm an opinionated bastard and in my opinion i'm right; motards are a great choice and the whingers are just whining 'cause they made bad choices or can't beat em, tough luck

smart racers read the rule book carefully and ride the bike that's gonna suit them best

good night and thanks for all the fish :sick:

[idleidolidyll]

If you want to ride an Off Roader, ride it. Off Road. If you want to Motard it, Motard it, but dont expect to enter every class at a Road Race meeting on an Off Road Bike. Imagine if Jared Love, Hayden Fitzgerald, Craig Shirriffs etc decided to enter their Road Race bikes in Motard, which under the current rules they can, look at Jason Easton at Paeroa last year when he couldnt get an entry in F3 class. If you race an off roader, race in the off road class!

my old ktm 640sm came factory fitted with road wheels and tyres and suspension tuned to suit. it had indicators, lights and a warrant of fitness: it was sold as a road bike

the same goes for my current 950

gurgle gurgle; another one goes down the sink

[idleidolidyll]

Hey pete,thats if you could make it past that bloody bridge!!
Hehehe
But I agree,hanging the back out it not the fast way through a corner

one more time just cause its fun: racing isn't about the 'best line around the corners', it's about beating the other bikes across the finish line and if that means 'ungentalmanly' tactics then so be it. it aint like that's something new ya know

slipstreaming, diving under, sliding in or out or both, slowing in a corner deliberately to fuck up the other guy, outbraking and taking a crap line that fucks the other up: it's all good stuff and all valid in a race until the marshalls wave the black flag

if you think otherwise you're never likely to amount to much imo

[gav]

Too right, the best racing line is seldom available , even for the pro's. If you followed WSBK when Troy Corser was on the Foggy Petronas, occasionally he managed to put the bike on pole, due to a hot superpole lap when he had the track to himself. However never did him any good, as he could never get to the first corner in front and found the more powerful bikes "blocking" his ideal line.
Back in the two stroke 500cc GP days, Aprilia after checking how fast a 250 could lap, and seeing it able to lap in times fast enough to make the top 10 of the 500cc grid, decided a super 250 was the way to go, so built a 400cc "big block" 250. While it could turn a fast qualifying lap, in the race, it didnt have enough power to get to the first corner in front and wasnt able to use its advantage of its superior cornering speed, the bigger bikes would come down inside and square off the corner and wheel spin out, blocking the Aprilias ideal lines.

Then you get some smart prick turning up riding like this!

[Crasherfromwayback]

one more time just cause its fun: racing isn't about the 'best line around the corners',

YES IT IS...SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO VARY THOSE LINES...BUT THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT ALRIGHT.

it's about beating the other bikes across the finish line and if that means 'ungentalmanly' tactics then so be it.

THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING KNOWN AS A 'HARD ARSED RACER' AND A DIRTY CUNT. I'VE RACED AGAISNT BOTH, BUT HAVE RESPECT FOR ONLY THE FORMER.

it aint like that's something new ya know

NEITHER IS CHEATING....DOESN'T MEAN IT'S GOOD.

slipstreaming, diving under, sliding in or out or both,

AGREE WITH YOU HERE


slowing in a corner deliberately to fuck up the other guy,

ANYONE THAT HAS DONE ANY RACING AT ANY SEMI DECENT LEVEL WILL TELL YOU THAT 'BRAKE CHECKING' SOMEONE IS NOT ON...DANGEROUS, AND NOT AT ALL FUCKING COOL.


outbraking and taking a crap line that fucks the other up:

YOU WON'T STAY IN FRONT FOR LONG

it's all good stuff and all valid in a race until the marshalls wave the black flag

LIKE A BLOWFLY.....BLACK FLAG IS NEEDED FOR FLEAS TOO.

if you think otherwise you're never likely to amount to much imo

I'VE BEGGED TO DIFFER....AND I'VE DONE QUITE ALRIGHT.

[dangerous]

being the prez often just means you were the only mug to offer your services

i've been national prez mate, i know the process

and as for stamps; i ride bikes, i'm not into philately.
who gives a fuck about a 'current' licence? does your 'current' stamp collection make you better than simon crafar, gareme crosby or a hundred other fabulous riders who probably don't even HAVE a current licence? i KNOW there's a few here.
Ohhh fuck off, I was talking to Goblin, about our racing career I was not saying any of the above you are taking shit out off text... and I never offered my mug to be Pressie.. I was bullied into it, bugger em.


NOW... Im off to add another 1000+ k's to my riding days... so you lot keep up the bull shit and Ill catch up on my return :scooter:

[idleidolidyll]

thanks for those replies.
i'm now certain you know practically nothing about winning motorcycle races

[dragonz]

I can agree that now they're so popular as far as competitor numbers go they should have and stick to their own class (and I race one!), but not with the rest of your comments.

Years ago I used to race KX500's in F2 before motard was even born, and won a shitload of races against some pretty good riders. But as the 600 proddie based bikes got so much better, it made a 500 two stroke moto-x bike nowhere near competitive enough.

But when I race moto-x, if you wanna come and take me on- on your GSXR1000, I say bring it on mofo! Just because my RMZ450's origins were the dirt, doesn't mean that if there was a particular street race track where they'd be competitive now I shouldn't be able to take on anyone with ANY bike!

I do agree that there are too many guys (and Gals maybe) taking fucked up racing lines on their motards, that can and do cause problems for the road race bikes....but they simply need some 'education'. Fuck, my accident at Wanganui '05' was caused by some 'Peanut' doing just that.

Years ago now I raced at the one and only (I think?) Auckland street race round the warves area (so long ago now I can't even remember exactly where it was, but I've still got pictures!),
I DARED show up to this huge street meet where they were holding the AUSTRALIA VS NZ F2 CHALLANGE?? Where the two teams had their best SIX RIDERS on late model TZ YAMAHAS doing battle...and the late ROBERT HOLDEN on his well potent oversized Ducati? So from 39th on the grid I managed after having to barge my way (wouldn't have had to have been so agressive if they were sensible and put me in my rightful grid spot) through far too many slow ROADRACERS to get my way to 6th at the finish of race one.So obviously quite pleased with my effort, I looked forward to race two.....especially as I must surely have earnt my 6th spot on the grid!!??

Now anyone that was actually there way back then, will no Doubt remember ROBERT HOLDEN doing WHEELSTANDS the length of the front straight on that hugely impressive Pantah based Ducati.....no blag flag threat to him right? And please don't think I'm trying to compare myself to Robert, as on a street circuit, I'd never be cheeky enough, and not many ever did compare......but
EXCUSE ME?

So GUESS WHAT HAPPENED IN RACE TWO?

Yeah funny that......I once again had to barge and carve my way from 39th to 6th again in about TEN MEASLY FUCKING LAPS!

So my chances of having a crack at the top three guys were shot.....my prize money severly DEPLETED.....because WHY? I showed up on a KX 500 and DARED WASTE a lot of the then 'NAMES' of NZ and Aust ROADRACING on late model PURPOSE BUILT ROADRACE BIKES?

I could be wrong....But I'm pretty sure it was 'THE AUCKLAND MOTORCYCLE CLUB' hosting and 'controlling' the EVENT.....WELL IT NEARLY PUT ME OFF ROADRACING for GOOD!

They weren't and never will be 'MOTORCYCLISTS'.

Rant (yeah I know) finally over.:sick:

Sorry I shortened up your quote for space.
You were awesome, didn't know why you were made to start so far back each race, nice to find out the truth eventually!
Would have loved to see you & Robert closer, synchronised monos on each straight would have been awesome! You were a very popular watch.

The organisers were a little paranoid about the wheelies however!
They had pushed all kinds of shit up significant hills to get the meet, & were being "monitored" very closely by the council, i understand.
You wern't the only one spoken to.
I was in the pits with Paul Pav & Robert Holden when the Marshalls requested less "front wheel airtime" from them, & several others, much to those riders displeasure also!

Must look back through my archives, think I have some pics of you somewhere.

Regards

Phil

[dragonz]

I can agree that now they're so popular as far as competitor numbers go they should have and stick to their own class (and I race one!), but not with the rest of your comments.

Years ago I used to race KX500's in F2 before motard was even born, and won a shitload of races against some pretty good riders. But as the 600 proddie based bikes got so much better, it made a 500 two stroke moto-x bike nowhere near competitive enough.

Years ago now I raced at the one and only (I think?) Auckland street race round the warves area (so long ago now I can't even remember exactly where it was, but I've still got pictures!),

Rant (yeah I know) finally over.:sick:

You were awesome that meet, wondered why the were starting you so far back!

The organisers were paranoid about the crowd safety, & they were hard on a lot of riders about wheelies!
They had pushed all kinds of shit up a number of significant hills to get the meet to happen, & had the council fun police on hand to monitor the situation, or so I understand.

You wern't the only rider spoken to about wheelies.
There was a big thing at the riders briefing, &
I was in the pits with Paul Pav & Robert & some of the international riders when they were spoken to about "front wheel airtime" after the first race or 2.
Those riders wern't to happy about being told how to ride their bikes either!

Must go back through my archives, think i may still have some pics of you somewhere.

Regards

Phil

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sorry I shortened up your quote for space.
You were awesome, didn't know why you were made to start so far back each race, nice to find out the truth eventually!
Would have loved to see you & Robert closer, synchronised monos on each straight would have been awesome! You were a very popular watch.

The organisers were a little paranoid about the wheelies however!
They had pushed all kinds of shit up significant hills to get the meet, & were being "monitored" very closely by the council, i understand.
You wern't the only one spoken to.
I was in the pits with Paul Pav & Robert Holden when the Marshalls requested less "front wheel airtime" from them, & several others, much to those riders displeasure also!

Must look back through my archives, think I have some pics of you somewhere.

Regards

Phil

lol...not surprised mate....it was a rather long rant/dribble session!

Thanks for your kind words, although no matter how far up the grip they'd put me, I wouldn't have been on Roberts pace!

The petty organisers aside, I had a great time there, and that was only my second ever road race.....I was hooked then!

Pete

[Crasherfromwayback]

It's not easy trying to break into a male dominated sport and the only way to learn racecraft is to get out there and do it. All you "opinionated" guys on here have given me some valuable insight into racing here and I have filed some points for future reference. Thanks guys! :done:

Just don't ever let me catch you 'brake checking' anyone like our mate thinks is all cool!

Else I'll spank ya bum myself!:innocent:

[Brian d marge]

Just watching portugal motogp

Toni Elias on roberts last lap. In sideways forces roberts to slow , letting rossi through as well , rossi on the other hand doing everything to protect that line ,,, different brakeing points , moving across lines Even foot out ...

I think there is a difference between tapping the brake when a riders up your arse and missleading them as towards your braking points.

Personally ( imho) thats my look out , you is the fella in front , my job is to go past, thats my problem not yours ...( least that the way I look at it )

Stephen

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just watching portugal motogp

Toni Elias on roberts last lap. In sideways forces roberts to slow , letting rossi through as well , rossi on the other hand doing everything to protect that line ,,, different brakeing points , moving across lines Even foot out ...

I think there is a difference between tapping the brake when a riders up your arse and missleading them as towards your braking points.

Personally ( imho) thats my look out , you is the fella in front , my job is to go past, thats my problem not yours ...( least that the way I look at it )

Stephen

And what a fantastic race it was!!

But no one at anytime in that race 'slowed up' mid corner...and you'll not see it in many good races. There's been the odd race where one of the top guys has claimed that the guy they're racing with has done so....but you can see how badly it's looked upon by the quick denials from the accused.

[TonyB]

Holy shit. Went away for a week and have come back to a bloody monster thread... I'm only on about page 16. This quote right here
I think you guys need to be careful not to alienate the 'tards from roadraces, just remember their entry fees etc help pay the bills too.....racing in NZ isn't big enough to sustain segregation like overseas.and one other that I can't find again now... something along the lines of
"some of the slower Motard riders are taking bad lines that causes them to get in the way. Maybe some education is needed" pretty much sum it up.

Maybe its not the fast Motard riders that are the problem. Maybe its only the ones that take terrible lines, stick their foot out, and don't understand how to shift their weight around to increase corner speed that are the problem. A fast rider is going to be doing most things right, a slow rider is more likely to be doing things wrong... or they could just be slow. Maybe where there is a dedicated Motard class, the ones with lap times that would be considered reasonable for F2 should be invited into F2, and the ones with reasonable F3 lap times should be invited into F3. Same for BEARS. IF a motard rider in F2, F3 or BEARS was unable to keep their feet on the pegs and/or was obviously tripping up other competitors in F2/F3 or BEARS, they could be un-invited. So if you're quick and you can adapt to a more 'classic' road racing style and lines, then you get to race in more than one class. If your not fast, and/or you can't adapt, you stay in Motards. That seems fair... though no doubt someone will point out a very logical reason why its not...

If there's no dedicated Motard class, then they pick one or two classes and race in that, with the "no feet out" rule actually enforced- ie words spoken then the black flag shown.

[gav]

If they are "dangerous" or too slow or a hazard, they should be black flagged and taken off the track. Then taken aside and told what they are doing that is wrong or unacceptable, actually this is the current situation for any class of racing. If he can't improve his riding, he won't be able to get back on track, suggestions of a track day or some tuition will be suggested.

[TonyB]

Races a big bore Harley and a DR400.
Tell me he didn't put forward controls on it....

[TonyB]

hey naieve one


like i said, you have no clue re what goes on in racing.
the ultimate goal in a race is to win
cool is not relevant and the tactics i've described can be seen as you watch world championships or as you watch NZ championships.

it aint fucking tiddly winks mate and yes, i've employed them on occasion as have many kiwi racers past and present

as for your childish 'warning', go tell it to someone who gives a rats arse


You are absolutely 100% full of shit....as unlike you, I've won national championships......I've yet to see your list of 'acheivements'....and the 'names' you've beaten doing so..... tosser.


So will you two be having angry sex at the next race or what? :Punk:
Angry sex? Geeze, hope not! Good hard racing? :rockon: I'd pay to see that. Idle, mate it is possible to put across an argument without reverting to personal attacks. You should try it, you might get some respect.


If they are "dangerous" or too slow or a hazard, they should be black flagged and taken off the track. Then taken aside and told what they are doing that is wrong or unacceptable, actually this is the current situation for any class of racing. If he can't improve his riding, he won't be able to get back on track, suggestions of a track day or some tuition will be suggested.Realistically, thats all that can be done. Hell, I have yet to meet a road racer at any level who wont give good advice if asked. Like I said above, if we have a sort of invitation scheme where fast and or well behaved Motards are invited into F2 & F3 along with a dedicated motard class, then everyone is getting a fair go.

Someone made a point about the super250 etc- the same thing happened when 500's tried to race with the original MotoGP bikes, the 500's could do a good qualifying time, but in a race the superior punch off the line and out of a corner kept the MotoGP bikes ahead. If the Motards invited into the formula classes can do a good lap time and keep their feet in the right place and their tactics clean, then surely we wouldn't have a problem? Or would the top formula racers still have a problem?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Idle, mate it is possible to put across an argument without reverting to personal attacks. You should try it, you might get some respect.



When it comes to racing....respect is earnt. Not through dreaming about doing it and slagging off people that have done it.

[idleidolidyll]

When it comes to racing....respect is earnt. Not through dreaming about doing it and slagging off people that have done it.

so then stop slagging off someone who HAS done it

lets see; when i suggested that taking the 'perfect line' through corners is often not realistic in a race and that the ultimate goal was to cross the line first not to take pretty lines, you came back with some nonsense about playing like a gentleman.

again, it aint tiddly winks, it's racing and your philately collection is as relevant as is your national chess club title. every tactic short of the black flag is valid if you want to pass the bike in front and, particulalry on the last corner, if you can fuck up the other guys drive as you do it, more power to you, that's racing.

in fact if you DON'T have that killer instict and will to win by using all the opportunities presented, you're unlikely to amount to much at all

[idleidolidyll]

So, back to the original subject: banning motards from the Formula races.

Here's a list of the reasons why some here think they should be banned:

1. They take different lines

2. They slide into the corners

3. They stick their foot out

4. They have taken over the class, there's 3 or 4 times as many of 'them' as there are of 'us'.

5. They're motocross bikes so why should they be allowed to race in road races?

6. They're 'dangerous'. (This one's silly unless the reason they're 'dangerous' is offered and usually it falls under one of the above excuses.

7. This is OUR class not theirs.

8. They get to ride 4 or 5 races every meeting but we only get 1 or 2 (The "I'm jealous" excuse)

Have I missed any? If the argument is to be taken seriously, the reasons for banning them must be offered in a clear, succint manner with supporting evidence or explanation.

If I have missedf any, please post them so I can analyse and comment.

So far then my answers to the above are:

1. So what? Taking different lines is what racing is all about. Already in F3 for instance, 125's take different lines to 400's.

2. So does Rossi and co. If sliding in squares the bike off and allows it to get on the power quicker, that might be the 'best' line for a particular corner. Some have whined about the sliding. The best way to show that sliding is slow is to pass them. If ya can't, then sliding is possibly BETTER.

3. If that is unsafe for others, fair enough but that's no reason to ban the bike, it's more a reason to ban sticking a foot out.

4. So what? Just because a bike is a popular choice does not make a good reason to ban it. If that was the case Yamaha R1's would be banned from F1 for example.

5. This one is nonsense. With 17" wheels and slick tyres, these lightweight torquey bikes are fun to race on the road and many are bought as road bikes with lights, indicators and ONLY 17" wheels with road tyres and suspension tuned for the road.

6. If they're dangerous (the bike, not the rider) then offer why they're dangerous. It's a no brainer to make a blanket statement without an argument to back it up.

7. No, the class belongs to ANYONE whose bike meets the specification. If we were to get down to brass tacks on that complaint then 125's would be kicked out too.

8. Jealousy is not a valid reason to exclude a type of bike from a class. The riders of those bikes made a smart choice that gave them the opportunity to ride in several classes.

[TonyB]

Angry sex? Geeze, hope not! Good hard racing? :rockon: I'd pay to see that. Idle, mate it is possible to put across an argument without reverting to personal attacks. You should try it, you might get some respect.


I wasn't attacking anyone not getting personal. In fact I was doing quite the opposite. If you'd actually read my post before lecturing me about "respect" you'd see I was basically pointing out to the two lads concerned that it was starting to get a bit heated and personal (thus the "take a big breath" statement).

Angry sex....boxing gloves. Obviously they were statements to be taken seriously and meant to offend people. I will of course be rushing out to buy two pairs of boxing gloves before the next race. You can see I've upset the two guys concerned by their replies.
Scracha, you misread my post. It wasn't directed at you.

[Crasherfromwayback]

what part of "I retired in the 90's" did you not understand?

once more; just because you're out there today racing, does not make your observation any more valid than that of the many many racers of the recent and distant past.

i've noted many times here that the whiners would attack the likes of Crosby, Slight, Holden, Toomey and other great racers if they arrived and started posting anonymously: you would probably be one of the first to mongrel them.

Now be a good lad and try to address my next post, the one about the reasons offered to ban motards from the formula races. Let's see some intelligent well reasoned answers, not testicle comparisons and chest measurements


Well here's a good point for ya then mate.....I've raced against Slight, Holden and Toomey....and none of them would think it's a good idea or safe to slow mid corner!

I've only got a small chest, as I'm only a small guy....but my nuts are as big as my mouth!

[Joni]

OK guys. A few complaints have come through regarding this thread. Anymore crap and the thread will be locked.

Play nice... or take it off KB.

:Oi:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Doh....sorry about that.....I'll leave it!:shutup:

[Joni]

Its not just you Crasher... Idle and Dangerous have generated complaints too. I have let things go, as I think this thread has some really usefull stuff.... but a pissing contest is not required on KB.

So everyone, keep it clean please.

[Sketchy_Racer]

7. No, the class belongs to ANYONE whose bike meets the specification. If we were to get down to brass tacks on that complaint then 125's would be kicked out too.

125s arent racing the F3 class. They just share track time. And SHOULD have a delayed start.

Also, its not our (125 riders that is) choice to be in F3. If people asked me if i would stick to my own class, then hell yes!

also another thing to think of is, 125s a so-call 'higher-up-the-food-chain' class than F3, so it could be said that F3 bikes are in OUR class??

I dont mind being in F3, so long as there is a nice big gap between race starts, and motards (or any other bike for that matter) dont hold us up

[Hitcher]

Keep it on topic, guys. If people disagree with you that's no excuse for personal attacks. The discussion so far has been pretty good. I will have no qualms in relegating unnecessary crap to the Drivel Thread.

[TonyB]

Good call Mr H

given the fact that F3 in general is such a hot topic for debate, with the whole SV650 vs 400's thing etc, maybe its time to admit that there is a fairly wide range of equipment being used and run staggered starts with seperate results for each class.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Good call Mr H

given the fact that F3 in general is such a hot topic for debate, with the whole SV650 vs 400's thing etc, maybe its time to admit that there is a fairly wide range of equipment being used and run staggered starts with seperate results for each class.

Yep, you got it mate!

that way you can keep 90% of different classes out of the way for 90% of the race

Works for me

[Crasherfromwayback]

Good call Mr H

given the fact that F3 in general is such a hot topic for debate, with the whole SV650 vs 400's thing etc, maybe its time to admit that there is a fairly wide range of equipment being used and run staggered starts with seperate results for each class.

I believe that the whole SV vs 400 thing is about to be revisited innit?

[Sketchy_Racer]

I believe that the whole SV vs 400 thing is about to be revisited innit?


:shutup: Oh god, lets not go there

[Crasherfromwayback]

:shutup: Oh god, lets not go there

Doh....sorry mate.....but to really put my foot in it then (again).....they need to.....

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah mate, they need to,

But we're having trouble keeping the debate of motards on track.

Adding that to the situation..... well, ya know

[Bykmad]

Lets get back on track here. You ride an off road bike, so compete in an off road class at ROAD RACE meetings. Road racers stick their knee out, not the whole bloody leg. If you want to Road Race, go Road Racing on a road race bike, If you want to Motard, go Motarding, but dont expect to take your Off Road bike into road race classes. Imagine how the MX boys would feel if someone mounted a ZXR400 engine in a KX chassis and then got in the way of all the big boys at a Championship MX event. The racing lines would be so different, you could relate it to the F3 versus 125 GP debate. Pain in the arse for the MX boys, but not as potentially damaging as racing a wide handlebarred off roader, with a totally different riding style, at a street circuit.
I can hear it now, as the coroner says, Why were these two totally different motorcycle classes allowed to compete together. The riding styles are markedly different, there by causing the potential for catastrophe.
Motards are great. In the Motard class. Leave them there!!!!!
Think about it. The sport we all LOVE is dangerous enough without forcing the Motard riding style riding into Road Race classes. Lets eliminate the dangers we can, and move forward. Motards have their own class, Leave them there and leave the Road Race guys to do their own thing.
If we want a cross class challenge, lets go back to Tim Gibbes Golden Handlebars challenge. If you dont remember, it was a one day event that took in REAL Motard Racing at Manfeild.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Lets get back on track here. You ride an off road bike, so compete in an off road class at ROAD RACE meetings. Road racers stick their knee out, not the whole bloody leg. If you want to Road Race, go Road Racing on a road race bike, If you want to Motard, go Motarding, but dont expect to take your Off Road bike into road race classes. Imagine how the MX boys would feel if someone mounted a ZXR400 engine in a KX chassis and then got in the way of all the big boys at a Championship MX event. The racing lines would be so different, you could relate it to the F3 versus 125 GP debate. Pain in the arse for the MX boys, but not as potentially damaging as racing a wide handlebarred off roader, with a totally different riding style, at a street circuit.
I can hear it now, as the coroner says, Why were these two totally different motorcycle classes allowed to compete together. The riding styles are markedly different, there by causing the potential for catastrophe.
Motards are great. In the Motard class. Leave them there!!!!!
Think about it. The sport we all LOVE is dangerous enough without forcing the Motard riding style riding into Road Race classes. Lets eliminate the dangers we can, and move forward. Motards have their own class, Leave them there and leave the Road Race guys to do their own thing.
If we want a cross class challenge, lets go back to Tim Gibbes Golden Handlebars challenge. If you dont remember, it was a one day event that took in REAL Motard Racing at Manfeild.


Some valid points there....but like I've said in earlier posts.....I don't think that all motard racers need be tared with the same brush. They (motard racers) needn't put legs out and take silly lines at 'normal' tracks....they simply chose to do so.

So I think they need to be told either ride in your own (motard) class if you want to ride like that...or 'road race' and by all means join us......I never once had a complaint as to the way I was riding my KX 500 years ago....well before the whole 'motard' thing......

[Ixion]

But is not the entire definition of a motard that it IS a road bike?

Granted , it has an off road ancestry.

But would you argue that my XT600 is not a road bike , cos of its 21" front wheel? Or even the little SRX250 I had, which had the engine from the XT250. Same with the SRX600, those are road bikes.

And the converse- back before it became big money, almost all MX , trials and other off road bikes, were the manufacturers 350 or 500 single road bike (AJS, Ariel, etc), converted for off road. It would have been absurd to say that they could not compete off road because their engines derived from raod bikes.

[Crasherfromwayback]

But is not the entire definition of a motard that it IS a road bike?

Granted , it has an off road ancestry.

But would you argue that my XT600 is not a road bike , cos of its 21" front wheel? Or even the little SRX50 I had, which had the engine from the XT250. Same with the SRX600, those are road bikes.

And the converse- back before it became big money, almost all MX , trials and other off road bikes, were the manufacturers 350 or 500 single road bike (AJS, Ariel, etc), converted for off road. It would have been absurd to say that they could not compete off road because their engines derived from raod bikes.

Absolutely with you 100% Ixion!

people now are freaking about the whole 'motard' thing....but fuck....only because so many people are now doing it....I don't buy the 'big wide bars' are a danger etc.....and the people asking what would we (motard riders) think if someone stuffed a road bike engine into a moto-x frame and came racing with us.....well I say bring it on! Honda years ago made a highly trick twin cyl two stroke m-x bike....only to find it was shite....what about Steve McQueen doing the famous leap.....on a Triumph.....bring it on!

[gav]

Yes the F3 rules are to be reviewed, the SV's are to run to much tighter rules, and the 400's will have to remain as 400's, currently you can run a big bore 450cc "400". After watching the Nationals from Levels today, the motards arent a problem in F3. Yes, there were a few out there, but the nature of this track, doesnt really cause them them to ride with there foot out. However the fastest F3 bike out there was a YZF450 engineered special, with 17" wheels, is it classified as a motard? (Jason Eastons Tigcraft 450)

[idleidolidyll]

Well here's a good point for ya then mate.....I've raced against Slight, Holden and Toomey....and none of them would think it's a good idea or safe to slow mid corner!

I've only got a small chest, as I'm only a small guy....but my nuts are as big as my mouth!

:yes: and i've raced against most of the 'names' too although some different ones like Crafar, Anderson, Williams (the first), Haldane etc. I've SEEn some of them slow mid corner on the last lap to fuck up the other guy. However, i'm not gonna play my nuts are bigger than yours. I'd rather talk about the thread topic.
Unfortunately, at a glance, it seems that nobody has taken up the challenge and replied directly to my summation of the arguments for/against motards in the formula classes.

I'd be really disappointed if MNZ changed the class format WITHOUT a reasoned debate with clear concise pros and cons.

BTW crasher, I've probably raced against you too depending on class. I changed from MX in the mid 80's and raced part time for the next 10 years between business trips.

I've always been of the opinion that successful motorcycle racers have what is described (by outsiders) as "Massive Egos".
I reckon that without these, we are not winners. The ego's as described might seem that way from the outside but in fafcdt it is just self belief and as a good racer knows, much of this game is about confidence in your own ability.
My father taught me that since I was as athletic as anyone and debatably intelligent, there was no reason I should settle for 2nd best. He was right, winning is often about determination and self belief even though it is also about practice, fitness and setup.

Perhaps that's the trouble on this board? All those egos bashing against each other. I know I have one. Even though I stopped racing a decade ago, I still go out on my road bike and regularly kick arse, often as the 'undergod' (no spelling mistake). A 640 supermoto vs a 999 Ducati, Triumph Speed triple or R1? Can't be done they say................but I used to do it often.

Lastly, if I WAS racing today I'd welcome the opportunity to race against a supermot and would also relish the idea of racing a supermoto against streetbikes. I'm not the type to do the big moto slide into corners but instead use the ability of a motard to take any line and even change direction mid corner.
Far from complaining I'd be chuffed to have more riders behind me.......................................:yes: :dodge:

idle out

[FROSTY]

To me its pretty clearcut. Motards ridden in any other class are fucking dangerous.plain and simple.
In essence its the same argument as running 125gp and F3 bikes together-theres a bloody good reason they dont.
Im out there with them and they take totally different lines to a road bike.
The three tards out at levels were ALL roadracers and rode in roadrace not tard style.
Ie the guy on the 650 honda had his knee/leg ankle on the ground rouund turn 4 and 5.
As a compromise Id say the only way Id want tards on the track withme is if they keep their feet on the pegs at all times

[FROSTY]

Yes the F3 rules are to be reviewed, the SV's are to run to much tighter rules, and the 400's will have to remain as 400's, currently you can run a big bore 450cc "400". After watching the Nationals from Levels today, the motards arent a problem in F3. Yes, there were a few out there, but the nature of this track, doesnt really cause them them to ride with there foot out. However the fastest F3 bike out there was a YZF450 engineered special, with 17" wheels, is it classified as a motard? (Jason Eastons Tigcraft 450)
gav--where did you get this "information" from??
Changes to the F3 rules are proposed changes for discussion only at this stage

[motobob]

An interesting one sided debate. Dirt bikes have been used on race tracks for years and not caused problems until the riders learned to back em into turns and stick their foot out. I don't see there is a problem mixing in with Road racers. The Motards are very ccompetive on tighter tracks and expose the riding skills of us "roadies".

I have got pissed trying to pass them at trackdays but realised they were better at braking into a turn than me. The line they take thru turns makes it hard to overtake them at times. But usually you have a speed advantage over them.

Having them ride in a similar style to RR's may help the situation. But who knows. Basically you chose a bike that will make you competive, so if you chose a Motard then so be it.

Haven't seen any at Pukekohe' so I presume they are not competive there. Seen plenty at Taupo and they sure are competive there.

Basically I would like to see them remain in F3 rather than have a seperate class. Delayed starts don't work for the fast guys that mix with the slow riders in the class ahead. But thats another debate.

GO Motards

[TonyB]

gav--where did you get this "information" from??
Changes to the F3 rules are proposed changes for discussion only at this stage
Doesn't pay to listen to rumours eh. I started this thread after hearing that MNZ had ruled that Motards were banned from the Formula classes. Has anyone actually got any proof that this is the case? Cause I haven't... I should've :shutup:

Last year I was told by a very creditable source that MNZ were going to discontinue F3 in 06/07. That didn't happen either.

[scracha]

Scracha, you misread my post. It wasn't directed at you.

Spotted....sorry

[scracha]

So, back to the original subject: banning motards from the Formula races.


7. No, the class belongs to ANYONE whose bike meets the specification. If we were to get down to brass tacks on that complaint then 125's would be kicked out too.


Point 8: See my earlier posts about vehicles with serious performance advantage being banned.

Point 7: Rightly or wrongly it's the competitors that make a race. If half the F3 field get sick of racing motards then they'll just stop going or form their own Formula 400 class. It is effectively "their class". If the majority of F1 riders wanted anything less than 900cc banned then it would probably happen too.

[TonyB]

Spotted....sorry
Not a problem.

[gav]

Originally Posted by gav View Post
Yes the F3 rules are to be reviewed, the SV's are to run to much tighter rules, and the 400's will have to remain as 400's, currently you can run a big bore 450cc "400".

gav--where did you get this "information" from??
Changes to the F3 rules are proposed changes for discussion only at this stage


Doesn't pay to listen to rumours eh. I started this thread after hearing that MNZ had ruled that Motards were banned from the Formula classes. Has anyone actually got any proof that this is the case? Cause I haven't... I should've :shutup:

Last year I was told by a very creditable source that MNZ were going to discontinue F3 in 06/07. That didn't happen either.
You see that word "reviewed" in my post, Frosty? :yes: Didnt say it was gospel, and the info is posted on Motorcycling New Zealands website, matey, not just a rumour, there then, aye TonyB.
Heres the link. http://www.motorcyclingnz.co.nz/download/PROPOSED_F3_Rules.pdf

Nothing but the facts from me.......:innocent:
Anyway, what was with that KTM 990 running in F3?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Perhaps that's the trouble on this board? All those egos bashing against each other. I know I have one.
idle out

As I'm sure it's painfully obvious do I.....I'm gonna do my very best to only add stuff here that I hope will be helpful from now on......well that....and the odd filthy thing....


To me its pretty clearcut. Motards ridden in any other class are fucking dangerous.plain and simple.


I don't think you can say that mate......bit like saying 'slow' racers can't race in 'your' class innit? They can be (due to huge speed differences) well dangerous yeah?

[TonyB]

I don't think you can say that mate......bit like saying 'slow' racers can't race in 'your' class innit? They can be (due to huge speed differences) well dangerous yeah?
Geeze, don't say that- I'll be banned from racing.

Gav, thanks for finding that proposal. So it looks like MNZ are proposing to quietly restrict Motards to 450cc. I can see a few owners of (eg) DR650 engined RGV's and similar specials having something angry to say about that. Bloody motorbikes- theres too much variety! ;)

[roogazza]

I see this thread is coming to an end tomorrow, everything settled then ?

I don't remember anyone complaining about Wayne Marshall and Peter Ploen on MX bikes at Wanganui in the seventies ? Look at the numbers doing points races down south at the mo, (9 or 10 in F1 !!!) We need every entry we can get by the look of it. Give them their own class sure, as they seem to be the growth area in road racing.
I must say they don't bother me ! If you get a handlebar in the ear can't you give one back ?? or has racing got PC like everything else in this country..... Gaz.

[That Guy]

An interesting thread.

I have raced in F3 with some success on a RGV250, and have come up against plenty of motards, and SV650s, and even super hot $30,000 ZXR450s for that matter. The fact is, F3 is a hybrid class these days because there just aren't enough of us turning up with one class of bike to call it a race.

I hate racing motards.

You come into a corner and they are basically stopped dead right in ront of you. You have to go off line, lose all you corner speed, and by then they have stood themselves up, and wheelied away. You gather back up your momentum and have caught them again, and there they are, stopped dead right in front of you at the next corner. Same again to the next corner. You either tee-bone them or take 3 laps to get by.

Then again I hate racing SV650s. You come up behind them too. At least they are riding a more noraml road racer's line - but still you can carry much more corner speed on a RGV. Anyway, you catch them up, and then <boom> they dissapper down the straight, only to brake 25 meters before you need to. So you catch them too. Only to see them go <boom> and disappear down the next straight.

My point is this - I would love to only be racing the same class of bike as I ride - but unless I go 600 or 1000 that will not be the case in NZ. We as a country are just too small to have enough riders beyond these the 600 and 1000 classes, to have enough classes popular enough of the same bike class to make make a race. The caveat to that statement I'd make is that based on the growth of motard bikes, it might be motard bikes that are the future for F3.

F3 is a mish-mash sure - but I'd rather be out there against SV650s and KTM525SMs then not have a class to race in with my RGV.

Chill out and have fun! Its what we're all in it for anyway.

[TonyB]

The caveat to that statement I'd make is that based on the growth of motard bikes, it might be motard bikes that are the future for F3.

F3 is a mish-mash sure - but I'd rather be out there against SV650s and KTM525SMs then not have a class to race in with my RGV.
Good point. Good post

[Clivoris]

My point is this - I would love to only be racing the same class of bike as I ride - but unless I go 600 or 1000 that will not be the case in NZ. We as a country are just too small to have enough riders beyond these the 600 and 1000 classes, to have enough classes popular enough of the same bike class to make make a race. The caveat to that statement I'd make is that based on the growth of motard bikes, it might be motard bikes that are the future for F3.

F3 is a mish-mash sure - but I'd rather be out there against SV650s and KTM525SMs then not have a class to race in with my RGV.

Chill out and have fun! Its what we're all in it for anyway.

Look mate. This thread stopped making sense ages ago and now you come in and raise the tone. :Pokey: Now I'm all confused:blink:

[That Guy]

Look mate. This thread stopped making sense ages ago and now you come in and raise the tone. :Pokey: Now I'm all confused:blink:


Sorry! I came in far too late. Nobody likes a gate crasher:nono:

[Crasherfromwayback]

An interesting thread.


I hate racing motards.

You come into a corner and they are basically stopped dead right in ront of you. You have to go off line, lose all you corner speed, and by then they have stood themselves up, and wheelied away. You gather back up your momentum and have caught them again, and there they are, stopped dead right in front of you at the next corner. Same again to the next corner. You either tee-bone them or take 3 laps to get by.

.

As I said much earlier....the ones that do that are simply trying to look good!
We (well most of us) all know it's not the fast way round a race track, and Jesus, the ones riding like that piss me off too, and I ride motard from time to time. It's got to be drummed into them I think.....just 'cause you're riding a dirt bike....doesn't mean you have to ride it like you're on a moto-x track!
They need to understand that to stick with bikes with more power, it's a high cornering speed they need to adopt! It's the way I've always raced dirt bikes!

[Buddha#81]

Sorry! I came in far too late. Nobody likes a gate crasher:nono:

Nah seemed you crashed the party with a dozen piss under your arm.:yes:

[slowpoke]

Aren't all the controls already in place?

I mean, if someone is riding in a dangerous manner then shouldn't they be black flagged? By dangerous I mean lacking the ability to take repeatable, consistent corner lines. I don't care if they back it in, but if that's their thing then they must be able to do it consistently, none of this ragged edge who knows where the fugg they're going type stuff. As a comparison, if a 125GP rider took wildly different lines lap by lap then they would soon be given a bollocking so why is so much slack given to the all over the shop backing it in type riding?

For me the issue isn't about the machines, it's about the style of riding. Sure, if backing it in works for you then go right ahead but just make sure that riders are adequately skilled to be able to do it in a reasonably consistent manner. And NO, the racetrack is NOT the place to learn basic riding technique.

Maybe we are just too lax with giving out race licenses. To get my race license in Western Australia I had to attend what was called Novice and Advanced Racecraft courses. These were virtually supervised trackdays run by the WA Motorcycle Racing Club where experienced road racers would offer very basic advice on racing lines, technique, machine prep and/or setup. Nothing too intense, just general chat's as the day went along. You could only gain your license after completing both track days unscathed and after being assessed on the track. The assessment wasn't so much about speed (hey, I got through so that's obvious!) but about being able to take consistent racing lines and the ability to pass and be passed in a controlled manner. The key word is CONTROL: if you can't take consistent lines then you shouldn't be on a race track, it doesn't matter if you are talking motards or superbikes the same thing applies.

Getting off topic for a bit, as a pussy road rider (wannabe racer) with virtually no dirt riding experience and very limited racing experience I've recently slapped down some coin on a motard in a desperate attempt to improve my skill level.

It only took one squirt over the 'takas to realize that these things are fuggin' awesome road/race machines even when ridden in the traditional both feet on the pegs style. Braking and handling are in a completely different league to any dedicated road bike I've ever ridden...to the point where I reckon I'd probably be quicker over the 'taka's on the retard than I would be on my R1, not that I really push it. (Er, maybe that says more about the rider than the bikes but that's another issue...)

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

[NordieBoy]

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

They do/did...
Gilera Saturno, Suzuki Goose, Honda GB, That Yam with the SR500 engine etc...

Some very nice looking/handling bikes and they only sold in limited numbers.

People didn't appreciate what they could do.

[Rashika]

Maybe we are just too lax with giving out race licenses. To get my race license in Western Australia I had to attend what was called Novice and Advanced Racecraft courses.
agreed! I would love to have had somehing like this to do before my first outing on the track...woulda helped with the nerves at the very least, but 'feeling' as well as 'being' well prepared (as determined by racers, not just ourselves) before racing would be a big bonus. I think the thing that helped for me is 20 years riding a pushie on the road, I'm used to people doing the stupidest things in front of me, passing me crazily as well as suddenly stopping in front of me. The racetrack seems even normal in comparison at times.
I've seen a few racers just about take out experienced racers due to their inexperienced actions...suddenly veering across the track to stop their bike at the side is one I can think of, let alone taking unusual lines.
Training before being allowed to race should be compulsary in NZ...but its not.


All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.
Cos people being people think that more hp is always better than less....60hp is fiddlesticks in todays numbers.

[TonyB]

All this begs the question why don't manufacturers make dedicated road bikes with similar spec's: 110kg's, 60hp, ultra-simple construction, good suspension and brakes? It's a bone basic formula that would have bikes flyin' out the door.

Another bloody good post, and I completely agree with everything you said. As for the bit I quote above, I have been thinking exactly the same thing. Why ARE road bikes so heavy when a KTM or Husky or whatever does such a brilliant job at getting around real roads and NZ's race tracks so well?? I understand that the frame must be stiff etc for high speed stability when cornering, but then an MX bike has to be able to absorb heavy landings, bumps and several offs without complaint, so they must be pretty bloody stiff too- or do they just flex alot? I have been told by a suspension specialist that the suspension on even modern sports bikes is primative and low budget compared to a dirt bike, so you're not winning there either when you fork out for a road bike.

Is it just a case of a road bike being a standard machine, built and sold to a budget, while a Motard is a specialist competition machine? So the fairest comparison would be an RS125 or RS250??

[gav]

Depends if you want to service your road bike every 6 hours or so, I guess....
Think Motorcycling Canty do a reasonable job if you're a novice, if its your first time on the track, will spend extra time with you and coach and monitor your riding and lines, and explain flags etc.

[slowpoke]

They do/did...
Gilera Saturno, Suzuki Goose, Honda GB, That Yam with the SR500 engine etc...

Some very nice looking/handling bikes and they only sold in limited numbers.

People didn't appreciate what they could do.

I'm not sure if anyone has already produce some spec's but this might give people an idea of why the motards are so effective and why a dedicated GP bike will have trouble getting past them.

A Honda RS125 is 62kg and 45 hp with a narrow spread of power
A husaberg 650 is 112kg and 60hp with a broad spread of power

It's similar to the motogp/500 gp cross over period when the lighter, less powerful 500's were competitive in qualifying but nowhere in most races, because if they got baulked even slightly they were going backwards in a hurry.

It'll be a shame if we end up losing the GP bikes as there are fewer suitable classes to race them in. They are pure examples of the absolute bare minimum required to get around a race track in the shortest possible time.

Back to my wee thread hijack about simple high performance road bikes that are conspicuous by their absence: it's not really a fair comparison due to capacities etc but even the lightest of those simple bikes listed above by Nordieboy is over 30kg's heavier, and the most powerful is still down 20 + hp and they've all got budget suspension, frames and brakes compared to say an off the showroom floor Husaberg 650 with it's White Power suspension, Berringer brakes, chrome moly frame etc.

You need to be thinking of something like an FXR150 sized bike (which is still 6kg heavier than the Husaberg!) with 65hp at the back wheel with top notch suspension and brakes. Who wouldn't have fun commuting on something like that?

Righto, I'm off to bolt a set of clip ons onto my 'berg and hacksaw 6" outta the suspension.......

[Goblin]

Have just watched footage from Wanganui over and over to see exactly WHERE and HOW Motards take different lines than the other bikes and I'll be buggered if I can see any difference at all! Even the bloody commentator had a go about the "Different lines" the Motards take. I saw more skidding and backing into corners from the top 3 in Supersport and Superbikes than in the Motard race.
I'll be :buggerd:

[NordieBoy]

Back to my wee thread hijack about simple high performance road bikes that are conspicuous by their absence: it's not really a fair comparison due to capacities etc but even the lightest of those simple bikes listed above by Nordieboy is over 30kg's heavier, and the most powerful is still down 20 + hp and they've all got budget suspension, frames and brakes compared to say an off the showroom floor Husaberg 650 with it's White Power suspension, Berringer brakes, chrome moly frame etc.

Wellll...
The GB1 in the 3rd pic was powered by a Gilera 750 with 77 hp and was built to deal to the Ducati SuperMono.

[Goblin]

Now I see it....the different lines are IN THE DIRT SECTION!:gob:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Have just watched footage from Wanganui over and over to see exactly WHERE and HOW Motards take different lines than the other bikes and I'll be buggered if I can see any difference at all! Even the bloody commentator had a go about the "Different lines" the Motards take. I saw more skidding and backing into corners from the top 3 in Supersport and Superbikes than in the Motard race.
I'll be :buggerd:

That's because I've no doubt they were only showing the motards that were at the 'pointy' end of the feild! As in.....that's right....the fast ones!
Going about their business.....racing the FAST way round Wanganui......not getting in the way (if they were sharing with F3) of the 'proper' racers!:shutup:

[TonyB]

So we come to an important question: is F3 for bikes sold as ordinary road bikes (SV650 etc) or is it for purpose built race bikes (most motards)? F3 was created to allow bikes like RGV2500's and ZXR400's race... those bikes aren't made any more, hence the drama's when SV650's started turning up- do you keep with the old machinery, or phase them out and phase in the new stuff? It's common sense that you have to phase out the old stuff. BUT, now you have these Motard thingys- purpose built race bikes. Does it make more sense to move the class more towards them? Hey, you get an awesome bike right out of the box. Mind you, that Aprilia 550 costs more than $20K- thats not exactly 'entry level racing'.

EDIT: It should be noted that in the F3 race I saw today at Ruapuna, a ZXR400 won... the $22K Aprilia was well behind.

[NordieBoy]

Am thinking that Motards should run their own class if numbers allow.
If numbers don't allow then they could enter in say F3 but have to abide by the rules (no foot out) or get black flagged (face full of fly-spray in the pits afterward).

Or if a 'tarder wanted to race in F3 instead of motard then no cross entering into motards as well.

If a 'tard qualified for say "King of the Port" then they'd have to do the "no foot out" thang.

[scott411]

Am thinking that Motards should run their own class if numbers allow.
If numbers don't allow then they could enter in say F3 but have to abide by the rules (no foot out) or get black flagged (face full of fly-spray in the pits afterward).

Or if a 'tarder wanted to race in F3 instead of motard then no cross entering into motards as well.

If a 'tard qualified for say "King of the Port" then they'd have to do the "no foot out" thang.

i am gdtting sick of this foot out crap, when i stick my foot out on my motard bike it deos not sitck out any further than someones knee (ie out side the handle bar width) its not that bigger deal, if you get close ehough to run over my foot congrats cause you are going to have a handle bar in the guts while you do it, pic attached shows a whole lot of motard riders at wanganui with their feet out,

[NordieBoy]

i am gdtting sick of this foot out crap, when i stick my foot out on my motard bike it deos not sitck out any further than someones knee (ie out side the handle bar width) its not that bigger deal, if you get close ehough to run over my foot congrats cause you are going to have a handle bar in the guts while you do it, pic attached shows a whole lot of motard riders at wanganui with their feet out,

Banning foot out just means there would be a bit less sliding the back in to square off the corner and keeps the racing lines more standard.

[Ixion]

I'm interested in the foot out thing. I've done it often enough on dirt, but is there really any point to it on seal? I sort of imagine that if the bike did start sliding on seal and you tried to push it up with your foot, dirt fashion, the greater road to boot friction of tarmac would prolly rip your leg off if you were doing any sort of speed ? Does it really achive anything , or is it just "style" , cos it looks good (like 90% of the knee down stuff from the other camp). Genuine question, not rhetorical.

[scott411]

the reason i put my foot out is (and i have tried the knee down thing as well but i does not work for me)
i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel, when i tip the bike in their is no where for my leg to go as your footpeg is close to or in the tarmac, i do not jam my foot in the ground but let it skim on the tarmac, their are hardley any scuffing on my boots, in some corners your knee ends up above the handle bar, but with the layout of the bike and where the footpegs are i have no other choice with my current riding syle.

i have tried the knee down thing at taupo but i find it unnatural, this may be because i am used to putting my foot out mxing, when i am on a road bike your foot seems further back.

[Ixion]

Ah, that makes sense. So it's not trying to slide the bike round the foot, speedway style. I understand the need on those bikes to weight the front, and realistically it would be hard to corner a motard well without sliding forward. So, if the foot down isn't to pivot round, (and as someone noted, it doesn't really stick out any more than a knee), why is it perceived as such a big issue ?

[Brian d marge]

)
i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel, when i tip the bike in their is no where for my leg to go as your footpeg is close to or in the tarmac,
Snip
but with the layout of the bike and where the footpegs are i have no other choice with my current riding syle.
Snip
i have tried the knee down thing at taupo but i find it unnatural, this may be because i am used to putting my foot out mxing, when i am on a road bike your foot seems further back.

The reason is that the Mx bike geometry is different Ride a chopper and you will be climbing all over the bike to get the wieght to the front ,
and unfortuantly you cant drop the front enough because of the handlebars

Scott here has a vaild point the legs arent flapping around in the breeze , they are hanging off ala rossi style

But stopping mid corner to squirt to then next on ,,I would agree is bordering on the dangerous.

Maybe its not the foot off thing that is the problem , but as someone else suggested backing it in is the problem ...Elias backed it in BUT he used a constistant??? flowing line the corner wasnt squared off so he wasnt becoming a hazzard ??( ask rossi that ) !

Stephen

ps these comments ar written pre coffee and are there for subject to the WTF are you talking about Willis clause .

[scott411]

when i back it in (okay when i try) i find i am using my rear brake so i in right hand corners at least you still have your foot on the peg, i do not take my foot off untill i tip into the corner, most motard riders i have seen do the same thing

[Crasherfromwayback]

the reason i put my foot out is (and i have tried the knee down thing as well but i does not work for me)
i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel,

Yo Scott.....I know what you mean....and yeah...you're never gonna feel natural trying to get your 'knee down' on a motard...they're too high off the ground, and the placement of the footpegs doesn't help either!

But you're obviously from a dirt riding backround....so know how weight over the front helps them turn (as in front wheel traction)....so I hope this helps....tarmac is no different to the dirt.....it's just that the limits of traction are far higher! So if you get your weight right forward when road racing....you'll feel right at home, help the front grip, and be in the right spot to catch the front if it lets go! No need for you to have your feet off the pegs......here's a pic from Waaaaay back.....up the inside..... weight not even that far forward as I was still braking pretty hard.... plenty of front wheel feedback even under heavy trail braking...no sweat!

[TonyB]

Just as well you managed to avoid that giant keyboard... bit of a safety issue that thing

One point I would make is that many riders who use the foot out style get their weight on the wrong side of the bike. Yes this works on dirt but it doesn't make sense on tarmac. They are pretty much guaranteeing that their footpegs will hit the road. I believe that it is this inability or refusal to adapt to what is a totally different style of riding that is causing all the trouble.

Look at the photo above- he's got his bum halfway off the seat with his weight on the inside of the bike, where it should be for road racing, and he's able to keep his feet on the pegs.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Just as well you managed to avoid that giant keyboard... bit of a safety issue that thing



lol...yeah way back then....we used keyboards instead of haybales!
Guess my digital photography skills aren't so shit hot eh...:shit:

[slowpoke]

i like to get as far forward on the bike as possible to put wait on the front wheel, when i tip the bike in their is no where for my leg to go as your footpeg is close to or in the tarmac,


when i back it in (okay when i try) i find i am using my rear brake

Hmmmm, it's good to hear about the actual mechanics of what is going on with someone coming from an offroad background on to the tar.

Just a couple of observations that you may or may not find interesting. I'm a wannabe racer who hasn't raced too many times so I'd be interested in some more experienced opinions.

As a comparison: you push your weight FORWARD to load the front and use the REAR brake into a corner, while we use the FRONT brake which automatically loads the front end to the point where we actually push our weight BACK to keep the back end in contact with terra firma.

You push the bike down and inside going into a corner, keeping your body upright, while we keep the bike upright and drop our body weight down and inside.

Forgive my rambling but I'm just thinking about why these styles have evolved.

MX style: front end slides are usually terminal hence most braking is done with the rear wheel, and thrown sideways to build up a berm in front of the tyre giving greater stopping power and pointing bike towards next corner, uneven, unstable, constantly varying terrain makes it almost impossible to modulate maximum front end braking. The leg is a natural automatic stabiliser. The uneven terrain also has the bike bucking and wandering around hence the rider remains close to the centre of gravity in the middle of the bike and lets the bike move around under him.

Road style: due to the much greater traction and smooth surface maximum braking force is gained by using the front brake, which loads up the front, which allows more brake, which loads up the front more which allows more brake etc until basically the rear wheel can be off the ground, hence very little if any rear brake is used. In a way, if you are using any rear brake at all then you really aren't braking hard enough with the front. The steering head angle also steepens under heavy braking which aids turn in. To maximise corner speed the centre of gravity of rider and machine must be as low as possible with as large a tyre contact area as possible, so the rider hangs off low and inside to keep the bike as upright as possible on the fat part of the tyre. Also, the the suspension is designed to work in the vertical plane so to maximise traction over track imperfections the bike needs to be as upright as possible, another reason to keep the body weight low and inside when cornering.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure how it's supposed to work while I'm hunt'n and peck'n away at the keyboard, I just can't bloody remember any of it when I'm eyes bulging, white knuckled at the few times I get to the track......

Speaking of white knuckles, it would be interesting to do a little experiment: find a piece of tarmac somewhere and do a braking test. Do a few runs, 'cos I reckon it'll take a while to get your head around it. Use a fence post or something as a marker and brake as hard as you can using your back it in method with the rear brake then do the same thing using just the front brake (if you don't stoppie on a retard you ain't tryin'!)

[scott411]

because of the suspensin travel on a motard the front can dip quite a bit and still have the rear wheel on the ground, the front does most of the braking but i find the rear brake has some control as well., however the front controls about 95% of the slowing down

the different race postion comes form different back grounds adn riding styles, i have tried sitting back and keeping the bike more up right like crasher, but it feels unnatural and i am slower for it, i did race a 150 streetstock for a year back int eh tim gibbs series days and the dump the bike in MX style caused a crash in turn 1 at manfield when i ground out the expansion chamber om my KR150, so i learnt to hang off the bike a bit more, i have no such problem with ground clearence on my RMZ so i go back to the style that i know, it does not work to bad for me, 2 top 10's overall on a 450 in a field of 41 at wanganui is not a bad effort, (would have benn 3 if not for a flat tyre),

if you look at NZ quickest Motard rider Toby Summers he uses the same style, both him and i tried both ways at a track day at Taupo and we both came up with the fact it was faster for us this way, however on the same day Russell Josiah used the road race style as it felt more natural to him from his road racing background. it comes down to how you feel on the bike, i have no problems racing people using either style, (or for that matter on any bike) i don;t think either way is more dangerous than the other, both of us can lose the front wheel


and further up the this discussion a few people mentioned that the mx boys would get upset if someone shoehorned a big road engine into a mx frame and came out, we wouldn;t be upset, we would laugh at anyone that tried then hopefully they had the skill to hold a line when they got lapped, cause horsepower is not all important on dirt, and it just would not work (even the aprilla twin does not work in mx)

[slowpoke]

because of the suspensin travel on a motard the front can dip quite a bit and still have the rear wheel on the ground, the front does most of the braking but i find the rear brake has some control as well., however the front controls about 95% of the slowing down

the different race postion comes form different back grounds adn riding styles, i have tried sitting back and keeping the bike more up right like crasher, but it feels unnatural and i am slower for it, i did race a 150 streetstock for a year back int eh tim gibbs series days and the dump the bike in MX style caused a crash in turn 1 at manfield when i ground out the expansion chamber om my KR150, so i learnt to hang off the bike a bit more, i have no such problem with ground clearence on my RMZ so i go back to the style that i know, it does not work to bad for me, 2 top 10's overall on a 450 in a field of 41 at wanganui is not a bad effort, (would have benn 3 if not for a flat tyre),

if you look at NZ quickest Motard rider Toby Summers he uses the same style, both him and I tried both ways at a track day at Taupo and we both came up with the fact it was faster for us this way, however on the same day Russell Josiah used the road race style as it felt more natural to him from his road racing background. it comes down to how you feel on the bike, i have no problems racing people using either style, (or for that matter on any bike) i don;t think either way is more dangerous than the other, both of us can lose the front wheel


and further up the this discussion a few people mentioned that the mx boys would get upset if someone shoehorned a big road engine into a mx frame and came out, we wouldn;t be upset, we would laugh at anyone that tried then hopefully they had the skill to hold a line when they got lapped, cause horsepower is not all important on dirt, and it just would not work (even the aprilla twin does not work in mx)

Thanks Scott. If you're top ten at Wanga's then you're obviously doing something right...er, make that just about everything right if ya did it on a 450!

Wanga's would be ideal for a motard and I'm sure Nigel Bevin at Husaberg (Taupo) sponsored that infield section at Taupo, haha. Yep, I'd love it on my chook chaser but from experience it's a pain in the klacker on my old R1.

It's great watching blokes like yourself, Toby Summers and co, real poetry in motion with that level of bike control that most of us only dream of having but some of your/our less skilled colleagues are a bit of a worry. If a road rider is not so talented (ME!) we are just slow, but if a supermotard is not so talented then they tend to be slow AND a bit erratic. I think it's the erratic part that gets some people steamed up and makes it hard to commit to a pass.

[scott411]

i have no doubt the dirt section helped me alot at wanganui as i could make passes in their at any time, if i can get top 10 at pearoa i will be stoked, but its going to be a long battle down that front straight with a 4 speed 450, truth is i am just going to have to harden up and brake later at the end, watch for some demon braking moves from the #411 RMZ450

[Crasherfromwayback]

i have no doubt the dirt section helped me alot at wanganui as i could make passes in their at any time, if i can get top 10 at pearoa i will be stoked, but its going to be a long battle down that front straight with a 4 speed 450, truth is i am just going to have to harden up and brake later at the end, watch for some demon braking moves from the #411 RMZ450

You'll be needing to (if you're not already) run 15/36....try using spacers in your forks with slightly thicker oil, so the bike doesn't dive so much when you're on the picks. The limiting factor as you've said....is the back wheel coming off the ground, and that helps a shitload!

[scott411]

i have got 15 36 gearing, needs a lot of clutching off the line, the xtra 1000rpm form the yoshi black box is going to help i think, i ran 15 39 at wanganui,

are you coming up?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Nah mate...still not back racing after my nasty biff at Wanganui '05'...may yet still lose my right foot....the ankle's a fucking mess.
At least it's not my gearchange foot!

I will be back doing it again at some stage......hard to get it out of the system....even at my age!

Good luck mate...hope it all goes well.

Pete

[Crasherfromwayback]

) i don;t think either way is more dangerous than the other, both of us can lose the front wheel




On faster places, I doubt you'll ever lose the front on a moto-x bike while road racing. I've binned them countless times, but it's never once been the front that lets go. Just as well, as you're not gonna be able to save it with your knee like you can (if you're quick AND lucky) on a road race bike....