Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

[TonyB]

As has been mentioned elsewhere, MNZ have apparently ruled that Motards are now excluded from F1, F2 and F3 racing. For those that don't know, Motards are dirt bikes which have been fitted with road tyres- usually they fit 17" spoked wheels to take advantage of the sticky tyres/ slicks available. Typically Motards riders go for European bikes... because then they get to race in BEARS as well

At Nelson this year by all accounts some of the Motard riders were pretty upset about not being able to enter so many classes. When I was there last year some had the audacity to complain that the gap between races was too short and they didn't have time to refuel... they were able to enter so many classes that some were actually going through more than a tank of fuel each round... and they were complaining?!?! Got to have respect for anyone whos fit enough to be able to race pretty much all day though.:Punk:

So the poll is to see what general opinion is. My personal view is that there is a class for Motards, and I can't see why they should be able to enter in pretty much every class thats going. Riders in F1, 2 or 3 spend a whole lot of money to be able to race in just one class. Riders of 125 GP bikes (RS125 etc) are already lumped in with the F3 bikes, and they have enough trouble tripping over them in the corners without all the Motards getting involved as well. I guess its the same in other classes too.

From a spectator point of veiw, Motards are awesome! But when they are out there over and over and over again it must get a tad boring. Plus they have a definite negative effect on the ability of traditional road race bikes to race with each other.

So what do you think?

[Shaun]

If you want to chase chooks get a dirt bike

If you want to race on sealed roads get a road bike

This form of racing is brilliant to watch, but they should be made to stick to there own class

Motards should have there own class! and should probally have there own meetings

[Mr. Peanut]

I can understand why, the different lines of a motard bike can upset those of a road bike. On the right track though, they could have a distinct advantage, but do they inhibit the sport?

[Brian d marge]

If you want to chase chooks get a dirt bike

If you want to race on sealed roads get a road bike

This form of racing is brilliant to watch, but they should be made to stick to there own class

Motards should have there own class! and should probally have there own meetings

Totally agree , What ,,#%$%&''n decided to run them in a road bike class???

As far as I know ..no other country does this ( correct me if I am wrong )

but motards take different lines .. they have ( IMHO ) no place in a road race ,,unless of course the off road section was included and the road bikes had to use it ,,, now that would be a laugh !!!

Stephen

[Grantasaurus]

Is there no motard type race series in NZ?

If so, that's a tragic loss, they're so good to watch!

[nsrpaul]

If you want to chase chooks get a dirt bike

If you want to race on sealed roads get a road bike

This form of racing is brilliant to watch, but they should be made to stick to there own class

Motards should have there own class! and should probally have there own meetings

like i said in another thread, best thing mnz has done in a long time:done:

[nsrpaul]

and keep the buggers out of my way, a good road racer on a motard tends to be fine, but a over compensting motocrosser like many and the nelson street race over the last few years tends to just wipe out any poor barstrd in their way

[Fat Tony]

The different lines taken by the two types of bikes are frustrating enough when mixing it up on a trackday, I can only imagine that that goes more so when racing and must make for some very hairy moments

[Nicksta]

motards are fun to watch.... but they are scary too.. and i dont see why they cant just have their own class to race in.... you dont put sidecars with F1....
thats what classes are for isant it? i'm about to start clubmans.. and i'd be a little freaked racing with them as they slide and take different lines....

I like motards.. but in their own classes.... just like F1 dont race with clubmans or sidecars....

[nadroj]

Keep them in their own class except for the likes of formula Wanganui type races (fastest 20 bikes etc) or other invitation races but out of dedicated road race fields including BEARS.

[James Deuce]

The riding styles between motard and road racer are completely different and I've seen motards balk 125s so many times it gets me a little hot under the collar.

It can be dangerous and expensive for both riders when someone gets balked mid-corner.

[Jantar]

I don't see a problem with letting motards mix it with road race bikes, provided they mix on even engine capacities. ie Motards up to 125 cc mix it with 125 GP bikes, Motards up to 600 cc mix it with 600 cc race bikes etc. Take away any capacity advantage and just let them race on their merits, then if they are first into the first corner good on the them.

[nickchilli]

if they want to race with superbikes , then they should be brave enough not to put there foot down on every corner

[Sketchy_Racer]

Nope the buggars can leave F3, F3 alone, but IF thier bike is a Bears bike, then that seems fair to me.

I believe most bikes should have the opportunity to cross enter into 2 classes.

Anymore than 2 is getting greedy.

125s need thier own class ( but i would say that )

[DEATH_INC.]

I have no problem with them, they use the same sorta lines I do and are easy to blast by on the straight bits......though I can see how they would be a headache on a 125.
What the real issue is is why I can't enter f2 on my old 750 that's slower than most 600's????

[White trash]

I have no problem with them, they use the same sorta lines I do and are easy to blast by on the straight bits......though I can see how they would be a headache on a 125.
What the real issue is is why I can't enter f2 on my old 750 that's slower than most 600's????
Because it's not slower than most 600s ya cagey old bastard!

[Bonez]

Leave them in. Much more interesting to watch than those plastic covered things.:yes:

If they comply with the entry critaria what is the problem?

[scott411]

as a motard rider (and motocross rider) i can see both arguments,

at wanganui you had to have 2 bikes to enter 2 classes, so you could choose one or the other and it was stated on the entry form that you could choose between F3, bears (if your bike was euro) or motard, fair enough, one rule for everyone,

i actually agree that motard bikes should keep to their own class, however this rule should apply to bears as well as f3,

and can someone tell me why bears has thier own seperate class when allt eh bikes are eliglbe for the other classes, but thier is no japanese race?

[Bonez]

and can someone tell me why bears has thier own seperate class when allt eh bikes are eliglbe for the other classes, but thier is no japanese race?That just would not be cricket ol' boy.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Leave them in. Much more interesting to watch than those plastic covered things.:yes:

If they comply with the entry critaria what is the problem?

Its all about riding style.

Exscpescially the Foot down thing.

Heres an example, I come up the inside of a motard on my 125 (cause motards are slow around corners) And Mr Motard decides now is the time to put his foot out.

Great.

Even a little kick is enough to through a 125 outta line. It aint fun.

Luckily, i am yet to have to excperience any problems riding with them (only 1 meeting on the 125)

But as said in my previous post, Most bikes -should- be able to cross enter.
Eg.

Motards + Bears (if eligible)
The 89 400s in f3 and post classics
125gp + Supersport

And any other combo. but only 2 classes. No more. Unless more than 1 person is riding the bike.

1 Class really aint alot of ride time, and unless the numbers at race tracks are getting really bad (which Definatly not an issue... yet:yes: ) It makes it more worth while for people to come race if they can cross enter.

-Glen

[Goblin]

I enjoyed racing with the Motards at my second race meeting. The way I see it, is the racing line is the racing line no matter what you're riding and the only variation is when you're passing someone or trying not to be passed. I think alot of people get pissed off at being beaten by a chook chaser.:yes: Simple as that!

[idleidolidyll]

Harden the fuck up.
When I was racing there were 'motards' in many of the races (even though the name hadn't been coined yet). They rode them then because they could generally only afford one bike and it was a dirt bike as was suited to most of their riding outside racing.
As for different lines: bullshit. The only motarder taking 'different' lines at Wanganui was the Aussie on the Aprilia and his lines were not that much different. Inexperienced racers on ANY bike are far more dangerous than a good rider on a motard. Besides, TAKING DIFFERENT LINES IS WHAT RACING IS ABOUT! How the fuck can you pass a bike if all you do is follow the same bloody line!?
Let them race in any and every class they are eligible to enter: it keeps numbers up and provides a great spectacle too.
Motorcycling NZ has fucked thios one up big time. NZ racing is too small to bar bikes from multiple entries in classes. Every bike that is eligible should be able to enter a class and the only stipulationcould be that slugs are excluded if they are outside 10% of the fastest time etc (as in international racing). That would get rid of the dangerous fukkers and I guarantee most of those would be on road bikes piloted by people who are just fukken slow.
I think back to Taupo many years ago when I was leading an F1 club race on a CBR600. Yogi on his GSXR100 was on my tail and on the last lap we both hit the corner at the end of the front straight at the same time as a first timer on an RD400. The RD rider was inexperienced and took both of us out and then had the temerity to say "There was no way those two guys could have gotten around the corner at the speeds they were riding", BUT WE HAD RIDDEN EVERY LAP AT THE SAME PACE!
Roadbike riders who complain are just a bunch of pansies.

[idleidolidyll]

I enjoyed racing with the Motards at my second race meeting. The way I see it, is the racing line is the racing line no matter what you're riding and the only variation is when you're passing someone or trying not to be passed. I think alot of people get pissed off at being beaten by a chook chaser.:yes: Simple as that!

good on yer! That's exactly it in a nutshell. There is no 'racing line'. That's a bloody myth. A racer takes whatever line they can to pass the bike in front without falling off. If they don't, they don't pass and never win.

[GSVR]

It all depends if you race one or not doesn't it. I don't care anymore. I hope no one complains if I turn up to race F3 on a 250 Grand Prix bike.

[Goblin]

It all depends if you race one or not doesn't it. I don't care anymore. I hope no one complains if I turn up to race F3 on a 250 Grand Prix bike.
So what did you vote on the poll Garry?

[GSVR]

So what did you vote on the poll Garry?

If I voted in the poll that would be taking sides.I don't like racing against them (Motards) but its not an issue as they aren't allowed in any of the leading north island the club series. ie AMCC and Vic Club. Pacific Club series is basically a trackday that you race at. I'm entering F1 2 and 3 at that one these days so I can just hoon around. Theres nothing to stop me entering the Motard class as well if I wanted so why rock the boat and end up with less racing. Taupo seems like Motard Capital so when in Rome...

My personal view is that all roadracing bikes should be fitted with a full fairing unless the class is specified as a naked class, Clubmans or anything goes.

[TonyB]

So far the only racers who have said they have no problem seem to be ones who either race motards or a road bike with enough grunt to get by them. 125 GP bikes and less powerful F3 bikes have to rely on maintaining a high corner speed to do a quick lap. Motards tend to be slower in the corners, but they accelerate out well, so the 125 GP bikes in particular get bogged down and can't get a flow happening. On a tight technical circuit this means they are buggered.

My viewpoint is that the guys on Motards are getting a huge amount of track time, while the rider on the 125 GP bike or F3 bike is getting sweet bugger all, and then to top it off they are then unable to race their bikes in the way they are designed to be raced, because there are Motards on the track.

I have been in a situation similar to this several times when racing my bucket with the 150s- the back marker 150s are slow through the corners, but they accelerate out again far quicker. Quite often you can be having a great race with 2 or three other buckets, then come up on a 150. What always happens is that the buckets get split up- there are only so many places on a race track where a less powerful machine can get in front and stay there, the buckets may all get past the 150 over the course of a lap, but then it will haul most of them back in on the straights. If one managed to get by early enough to pull a big enough gap to stay in front, they will end up isolated a few hundred metres ahead of the others. This happened to Dangerous, K14 and I at Levels a couple of years ago. We were having a good close race when we came up on a 150. It took three laps for us all to get past and stay there, and we ended up seperated by maybe 150m each at the of the race. Thats not such a big issue for us in buckets- we know its likely to happen, and we haven't exactly invested thousands in our bikes, but for the riders in F3 etc who HAVE invested thousands and are having their races buggered up, I can see why they would have a problem.

[TonyB]

Erm- I should also point out that I have been the slow rider on the powerful bike a few times too, and if I realise I'm buggering up someonelses race I'll wave them through.

[terbang]

I think alot of people get pissed off at being beaten by a chook chaser.:yes: Simple as that!

You got it....!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Harden the fuck up.
When I was racing there were 'motards' in many of the races (even though the name hadn't been coined yet). They rode them then because they could generally only afford one bike and it was a dirt bike as was suited to most of their riding outside racing.
As for different lines: bullshit. The only motarder taking 'different' lines at Wanganui was the Aussie on the Aprilia and his lines were not that much different. Inexperienced racers on ANY bike are far more dangerous than a good rider on a motard. Besides, TAKING DIFFERENT LINES IS WHAT RACING IS ABOUT! How the fuck can you pass a bike if all you do is follow the same bloody line!?
Let them race in any and every class they are eligible to enter: it keeps numbers up and provides a great spectacle too.
Motorcycling NZ has fucked thios one up big time. NZ racing is too small to bar bikes from multiple entries in classes. Every bike that is eligible should be able to enter a class and the only stipulationcould be that slugs are excluded if they are outside 10% of the fastest time etc (as in international racing). That would get rid of the dangerous fukkers and I guarantee most of those would be on road bikes piloted by people who are just fukken slow.
I think back to Taupo many years ago when I was leading an F1 club race on a CBR600. Yogi on his GSXR100 was on my tail and on the last lap we both hit the corner at the end of the front straight at the same time as a first timer on an RD400. The RD rider was inexperienced and took both of us out and then had the temerity to say "There was no way those two guys could have gotten around the corner at the speeds they were riding", BUT WE HAD RIDDEN EVERY LAP AT THE SAME PACE!
Roadbike riders who complain are just a bunch of pansies.

Ok thats fine. I'll harden up.

But I'll remind YOU to harden up when i slam into you cause your chock chaser is holding me up in the turns.

You ride a motard, so of course your gonna want as much track time as you can get.

How about stop being so damn greedy and just stick to your class?? Simple huh?

The lines you guys take arent much of an issue its the Wank factor riding you do (backing it in, and the whole foot out)

How about YOU motard guys harden the fuck up, and learn to ride with your foot on the peg?
And how about YOU motard guys learn to come into a corner with out crossing it up?

Sure do it in your motard class, but dont fucken do it in any of the road bike classes!!

Oh, and im sure you would bitch endlessly if i entered your class on a 125gp bike and whooped your arses?? So, dont come into the road bike classes.

[k14]

Hmm yeah this is a toughie. I used to be of the opinion that they should be able to race in any class their bike was able to race in. Now I've changed that opinion.

I have had some many near misses and 2 actual crash incidents involving motards. They take lines that are totally different to "conventional" racing lines and do unexpected things mid corner. I do not like racing against them and now if I do come up against one in a race I am very apprenhensive about trying to make a pass due to the unpredictablility of them.

Let them race in their own class and be done with it.

[k14]

As for different lines: bullshit. The only motarder taking 'different' lines at Wanganui was the Aussie on the Aprilia and his lines were not that much different. Inexperienced racers on ANY bike are far more dangerous than a good rider on a motard. Besides, TAKING DIFFERENT LINES IS WHAT RACING IS ABOUT! How the fuck can you pass a bike if all you do is follow the same bloody line!?
Thats a total load of bs. Obviously you've never raced against any before. Its not the different race lines that they take, its more the unconventional ones.

I can remember at paeroa last year I was coming into the final hairpin just to the left of a motard about halfway up. All of a sudden his rear wheel goes sideways and nearly hit me. Now if that isn't different then I don't know what is.

[scott411]

this leg out thing is a bit of a crock, how much further does a leg stick out than some one putting a knee out,

i can understand the different line and the backing it in, however i have seen a few of the better guys backing in F or F2 bikes as well,

and the corner speed is a crock as well, if i am ever at road race days i get held up by guys on road bikes in the corners as they break a hell of a lot sooner than we do due to more top speed and more weight,

and i would not start trying to get rid of motards, as i think clubs would struggle with out the entries they provide at the moment.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Keep your foot on the Peg. thats why you have foot pegs.

Or are you afraid you cant handle the bike and need your foot out to make sure you dont drop it?

We dont want to get rid of motards, we just want them in thier own class.

CAN IT BE MORE SIMPLE??

[Rashika]

this leg out thing is a bit of a crock, how much further does a leg stick out than some one putting a knee out,

i can understand the different line and the backing it in, however i have seen a few of the better guys backing in F or F2 bikes as well,

and the corner speed is a crock as well, if i am ever at road race days i get held up by guys on road bikes in the corners as they break a hell of a lot sooner than we do due to more top speed and more weight,

and i would not start trying to get rid of motards, as i think clubs would struggle with out the entries they provide at the moment.

motards are funny things, I quite enjoy watching them, but no way would I want to race WITH them. For pretty much all the reasons that K14 and TonyB have stated.
There was a couple of dirt style bikes in post classic at nelson, they weren't too bad, but they were nothing like the full-on Motard bikes. Guess i'm glad to race in buckets and post classics only, no motards there.

But sorry to say, after all the crap with the combining classes etc at Nelson st races, I have quite gone off motards tho... esp with one motard rider (only 1 mind you, the rest seemed okay with it) actually bitching about the fact that they only had 2 races each round, (ended up with 5) when we got only 1 race in total for buckets for the entire day!
Road bikes with road bikes and dirt with dirt... isn't that kinda fair to both groups then?

[scott411]

Keep your foot on the Peg. thats why you have foot pegs.

Or are you afraid you cant handle the bike and need your foot out to make sure you dont drop it?

We dont want to get rid of motards, we just want them in thier own class.

CAN IT BE MORE SIMPLE??

learn to use the outside line, if we are that slow in the corners just go around :), its not that hard is it, if we have a foot on the ground we can;t be going that fast

[Sketchy_Racer]

Stick to your own class and I'll stick to mine, then even less of a problem ;)

[Paul in NZ]

So why are you racing? Why do people organise races?? Esoteric GP techo dreams or do you just like the thrill of riding fast?

Do the paying public care? We had a thread a while back on how to get more people to come along to watch motorcycle racing... Perhaps ultimately this issue will be decided on what the public want to pay to watch..... The more spectacular it is the more the public will like it (I assume).

The public has largely gone off bike racing in NZ (compared to what it was) and I can understand why. Most races these days are a confussing mass of bikes in multiple classes all blatting around randomly and I can't tell an F3 bike from a F1 to look at.

If a class is so small it's not economic or large enough to stand alone perhaps it should be cut and the promoter should play to the strengths or public opinion?

[Keystone19]

I race with the motards in F3 occasionally. I don't mind racing with them and like Goblin have found it kind of fun. They are just a little more challenging to get past and I'm extra wary of where they are going next - but as with any overtake maneuver, I watch them for a few corners and then pounce when I spot a weakness - jolly good fun...

Having said that, I would prefer they have their own class because of their particular style and pace which does differ from the road bikes. This also means I get to enjoy watching them from the sidelines instead of trying to avoid them on the track...:yes:

[Sketchy_Racer]

Maybe Racing needs to be sorted in a fasion where everyone gets 1 class, and only 1 class.

That way it is simple for -

-the People watching us. They are the most important people. Having lots of people racing is great, but no good if no-one is watching. we need spectators at our sport to bring in money. Things like, the more people around, the happier it makes out (limited) sponsors. I know i sure would prefer to watch Clearly layed out classes, and not just jumbled bikes out there.

- Simpler for the Organisers. 1 bike, 1 class. much easier than 1 bike and a bazillion classes.

- Simpler for the riders. They know that the bikes they are racing is defintaly in thier class. Not, "hmmm i dunno, is that a F3 bike or a Post classic. shit i dunno"

Sure, you loose some track time. But hey, plenty of bikes already only get 1 class. EG 125GP and Clubmans.

A little off topic, i know, but to the point of Motards cross entering. well that would solve that issue.

But unfortunatly, that is unfeasable at the moment, due to the lack of racers.

To be honest, the more serious this becomes, the less fun it is for the racers, which them makes it less fun for the watchers.

I believe, the 2006 Vic series was one of, if not, the BEST series. It was clear and simple. Thats how racing events should be run

[Toast]

Having ridden with them at track days, I don't mind them too much. Sure, they have got a different style to the sportsbikes, where they seem to be fast as hell in to a corner but slow through it and average out of it, but there's nothing wrong with a little variation in my opinion. Any times that I failed to overtake them I put down to my own shit riding rather than getting bitchy about their being present.

I was speaking to a guy who races in PMCC though, and apparently F2 at the short Taupo track just became a huge mess with 40 or so bikes entered in there, due to all of the motard boys clogging it up. So, maybe my mind will change when I get in to a PMCC meet and the riding feels more like Auckland rush hour.

Apart from their entries making class numbers too great for a certain track, I can't see a really solid reason why they shouldn't be allowed to mix it with sportbikes.

[Rashika]

I was speaking to a guy who races in PMCC though, and apparently F2 at the short Taupo track just became a huge mess with 40 or so bikes entered in there, due to all of the motard boys clogging it up. So, maybe my mind will change when I get in to a PMCC meet and the riding feels more like Auckland rush hour.

Apart from their entries making class numbers too great for a certain track, I can't see a really solid reason why they shouldn't be allowed to mix it with sportbikes.

The problem is when racing (rather than just a track day) there is a competition going on... who is the fastest obviously. And people do spend a whole lotta money to race and may have just one bike, and able to enter just one class. I can definately imagine their annoyance to see a motard in 3 or more classes , and at times stuffing it up for the riders who ONLY have that class to race in.
Just cos they CAN go in a class does not mean that they SHOULD.
Technically my bucket could go in f3, but i dont cos I would not want to hold up the racers out there, who want to make the most of their race, and would probably smoke me easily ;) Same with the LC: technically able to go in whatever class it would be (?) but I stick to post classics for a number of reasons: I aint that fast and the bike is 25 years old... simple
I bought 2 bikes cos I wanted to race in more than one class, I dont expect to be able to race in more than one class.
Having said that, I wish like fk I had put the bucket in F3 at Nelson, so that I did get more than one outing on it... but thats life :yes: , maybe next time I will just for the hell of it.

[idleidolidyll]

Ok thats fine. I'll harden up.

But I'll remind YOU to harden up when i slam into you cause your chock chaser is holding me up in the turns.

You ride a motard, so of course your gonna want as much track time as you can get.

How about stop being so damn greedy and just stick to your class?? Simple huh?

The lines you guys take arent much of an issue its the Wank factor riding you do (backing it in, and the whole foot out)

How about YOU motard guys harden the fuck up, and learn to ride with your foot on the peg?
And how about YOU motard guys learn to come into a corner with out crossing it up?

Sure do it in your motard class, but dont fucken do it in any of the road bike classes!!

Oh, and im sure you would bitch endlessly if i entered your class on a 125gp bike and whooped your arses?? So, dont come into the road bike classes.


Please engage brain prior to posting nonsense.
I NEVER raced a motard, I always raced road bikes.
HOWEVER, I NEVER had a problem with chook chasers racing in any of the classes I was in. If that's the only bike someone owns, let em race it in ANY class it is eligible for. If a motard wins any race, it has justified its entry into that race and tough luck to the whiners who chose the wrong option.
As for motards being slow in corners: bullshit! If the motard you see is slow in a corner it's the rider who's slow not the bike. A 100kg motard is as fast as anything ridden well around corners.
If the line they take pisses you off, tough luck, that's racing and the same line could be taken by any road bike too (I tried to always take a different line; it's the best way to pass).
As for sliding into corners; at Wanganui only 1 rider did that and he was the Aussie import on the Aprilia. Racing is racing and all lines are eligible as well as all styles. Hell, I used to slide my CBR around corners too albeit under power out rather than in. People whined about my scarey lines and sliding back then too but screw them: I won races and rarely fell off.

[idleidolidyll]

Thats a total load of bs. Obviously you've never raced against any before. Its not the different race lines that they take, its more the unconventional ones.

I can remember at paeroa last year I was coming into the final hairpin just to the left of a motard about halfway up. All of a sudden his rear wheel goes sideways and nearly hit me. Now if that isn't different then I don't know what is.

Dear young fella, please don't guess about my racing history, you are clueless.
I HAVE raced against motards, they've been around for fukken years even when they were just YZ or KX500's fitted with 17" wheels.
Hell, there was a fantastic rider on one way back in the late 80's who used to race the Napier GP on it. He was bloody hot and always finished well. To boot, he only had one arm!
As for taking unconventional lines: tough luck, that's bloody racing. The guy or gal who can take a different line has a better chance of passing if the power out of a corner is the same.
Good grief! What a pack of whiners racers are today. I reckon it's because they can't beat the motards.
Re 125's. Dave Moore raced a Morbidelli 125 years ago in F3 and it wasn't the chookies that held him up, it was the 400's. Nevertheless, Dave usually managed to win in the end and he never complained about motards or slow 400's.
Being held up in corners will always be the case for 125's in an F3 race and the only way you'll stop that is to have a 125 only class. I guess there'd be about 5 riders - yawn!

[idleidolidyll]

Maybe Racing needs to be sorted in a fasion where everyone gets 1 class, and only 1 class.



nah, that's a boring idea. It would lead to small fields and boring racing.
NZ is just too small for restricted fields.
Petition MC NZ for a 125 only class and if you get one, I'd guess it'd last about 2 seasons before it was canned out of sheer boredom.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Please engage brain prior to posting nonsense.
I NEVER raced a motard, I always raced road bikes.
HOWEVER, I NEVER had a problem with chook chasers racing in any of the classes I was in. If that's the only bike someone owns, let em race it in ANY class it is eligible for. If a motard wins any race, it has justified its entry into that race and tough luck to the whiners who chose the wrong option.
As for motards being slow in corners: bullshit! If the motard you see is slow in a corner it's the rider who's slow not the bike. A 100kg motard is as fast as anything ridden well around corners.
If the line they take pisses you off, tough luck, that's racing and the same line could be taken by any road bike too (I tried to always take a different line; it's the best way to pass).
As for sliding into corners; at Wanganui only 1 rider did that and he was the Aussie import on the Aprilia. Racing is racing and all lines are eligible as well as all styles. Hell, I used to slide my CBR around corners too albeit under power out rather than in. People whined about my scarey lines and sliding back then too but screw them: I won races and rarely fell off.

So when you were racing back in 1882....:zzzz:

When was the last time you raced?

Of course you didnt care about the motards racing with you. you were on a fucken CBR600. You have more straight line speed and more cornering ability.

And, not its not just racing. I pay my money to race 125s, not to get irritated with motards (and any other bike for that matter) , At the moment there is not enough 125s to get their own class. So i just have to put up with F3. BUT because motards have thier own class, is it not to hard for them just to stay in the class that they have been given?

Also, they get to ride thier bikes off road as well, they are getting a shitload more ride time than race bikes, which struggle to get ridden once a month

I have no beef with the Motards. they just need to keep it in thier class. I Cant enter my 125gp bike in the motard class, so why should they be allowed to enter into F3??

[Joni]

Guys... please dont feed the troll!

:shutup:

[Sketchy_Racer]

nah, that's a boring idea. It would lead to small fields and boring racing.
NZ is just too small for restricted fields.
Petition MC NZ for a 125 only class and if you get one, I'd guess it'd last about 2 seasons before it was canned out of sheer boredom.

I dont believe it would lead to boring racing.

It would make choosing what class to join easier. Instead of deciding on which class you are going to get the least amount of intereferance from bikes in the wrong class

And why would i waste mine, and everyone else time and effort to get a 125 class at the moment?

The clearly just aint enough of them (in the NI anyway)

But i hope that more of the younger guys like myself coming from street stock see that to become a great racer, you have to do it in steps. I believe a 125 is the most important step to do so, due the fact that you DONT have huge HP to make up for your stuff ups, so you HAVE to learn to ride around a corner, Fast

Would i like a 125 class to its self?? Of course!! i would love it!!

Is a feasible at the moment?? No, and its not fair on other racers having to wait for 5 guys to finshing going around the track/

[dangerous]

I enjoyed racing with the Motards at my second race meeting. The way I see it, is the racing line is the racing line no matter what you're riding and the only variation is when you're passing someone or trying not to be passed. I think alot of people get pissed off at being beaten by a chook chaser.:yes: Simple as that!

You are very green girl.

Retards take a VERY different line, open your eyes and you will see.
NO... I dont give a rats arse if I get beaten by a retard, well no more than any other style of bike, thats just a dumb remark.


Leave them in. Much more interesting to watch than those plastic covered things.:yes:

If they comply with the entry critaria what is the problem?

Problem... pleanty actually:
They take different lines causing havoc
brake and acelarate different causing havoc
take up a shit load of room when cranked over
over fill the F3 classes to excess
dangerous foot work (not all)

Now I say this being a racer and being involved with theses bikes, thers enough of them to have their own feild, they fuck corners up big time for road bikes, they stop very fast and ulter direction very quickly.

I have had several very close calls with these guys, and seen much more... I now drop back when a retard gets in front of me as they are so unpredictable.

Read the other day that a retard guy had his fot run over cos he hanged it out and put it through a bike wheel... those X moto cross guys are awesome... but you CANT ride like that with road bikes.

And I would like to add nowere else in the world do they race with road bikes.. why you ask... simple... a true Motard race is done on the seal, and dirt, you wont se a road bike doing that.

[idleidolidyll]

So when you were racing back in 1882....:zzzz:

When was the last time you raced?

Of course you didnt care about the motards racing with you. you were on a fucken CBR600. You have more straight line speed and more cornering ability.

And, not its not just racing. I pay my money to race 125s, not to get irritated with motards (and any other bike for that matter) , At the moment there is not enough 125s to get their own class. So i just have to put up with F3. BUT because motards have thier own class, is it not to hard for them just to stay in the class that they have been given?

Also, they get to ride thier bikes off road as well, they are getting a shitload more ride time than race bikes, which struggle to get ridden once a month

I have no beef with the Motards. they just need to keep it in thier class. I Cant enter my 125gp bike in the motard class, so why should they be allowed to enter into F3??

Yawn.

If a motard has to stick to their class, why the fuck are you racing a 125 in the F3 class? Isn't that for 400's?

As for my old CBR having better cornering ability than a motard: rubbish! I reckon a good CR500 at just over 110kg was a waaayyy better bike in corners than my old pig of a CBR.

Get the point son, if the bike is eligible it should be allowed to race and fuck the whiners.

BTW: No son, I retired in the 90's and no son, I didn't ONLY race CBR600's, I raced more bikes than I can even remember. That's the problem when you pluck nonsense from the dark hole: it often comes up smelling like shit. Don't try to guess what I've done or put words in my mouth: you'll only make a fool of yourself. If you are really interested just ask instead.

FYI I've road raced everything from buckets to F1 and BEARS. If my bike was eligible for a class at a meeting I damn well entered it. The more track time the better. If you've chosen to ride a bike that's only eligible for 1 class or is non competitive in other classes, that's your problem not mine so please don't whine to me about it.

[idleidolidyll]

I dont believe it would lead to boring racing.

It would make choosing what class to join easier. Instead of deciding on which class you are going to get the least amount of intereferance from bikes in the wrong class

And why would i waste mine, and everyone else time and effort to get a 125 class at the moment?

The clearly just aint enough of them (in the NI anyway)

But i hope that more of the younger guys like myself coming from street stock see that to become a great racer, you have to do it in steps. I believe a 125 is the most important step to do so, due the fact that you DONT have huge HP to make up for your stuff ups, so you HAVE to learn to ride around a corner, Fast

Would i like a 125 class to its self?? Of course!! i would love it!!

Is a feasible at the moment?? No, and its not fair on other racers having to wait for 5 guys to finshing going around the track/

That's always been the case. NZ racing has never really had a 125 class because it just isn't popular and probably never will be.
They ALLOW YOU to ride in the F3 class and 125's generallytake different lines to a 400 so you shouldn't really complain about other bikes just because can be ridden differently.

The short answer is buy a different bike, choose more wisely about what will be competitive and just get on with racing instead of complaining.

[dangerous]

Harden the fuck up.
When I was racing.

What has hardening up have to do with jack shit?
I get the feeling that you last raced 50 years ago, you are some what on your own here cobber.


if the bike is eligible it should be allowed to race and fuck the whiners.

Or fuck someone else... motards are not eligble in F3 any more so smoke that.
Fella, you are loosing this big time.

[idleidolidyll]

It all depends if you race one or not doesn't it. I don't care anymore. I hope no one complains if I turn up to race F3 on a 250 Grand Prix bike.

a 250cc 2 stroke isn't eligible for F3 is it? Not unless the rules have changed in the last few years anyway.
250cc 2 strokes are eligible for the F2 class at a minimum. If it's a rotax or something I'd suggest you race BEARs as well and get more track time in.

[vtec]

I'm another racer who thinks they are quite dangerous. I've only been beaten by a couple (in the dry, in the wet I got owned cause I only had dry tyres), but at the last PMCC race meeting, I ended up tussling with one guy for ages, cause I would wait for ages to set up for an overtake, get the overtake done maybe on a corner exit, and then I would be setting up wide for the next corner, and he'd carve me up on the inside backing it in, go really slow mid corner, point it out of the corner and shoot. They don't take conventional racing lines at all, but their speed into the corners and out of makes them pretty hard to over take. And they fully mess with road bikes flow. Yes I do need to get faster, but the problem is that you can get stuck trying to clear a motard, and it will mean that the other road bikes in front can get away while some dude is blocking you into every corner entry, and yes you do need to be very careful around them, cause they are often past the limit of their traction and you can't tell where they are going to go next, hence the fact that it was hard for me to make passes on him, but easy for him to pass me, despite the fact that I was quicker around the circuit.

Also at that meeting in the first lap of one of the races one of them slid the back out so far that he lowsided right infront of me, and this was when everyone was still piled together, caused chaos everyone trying to avoid him. It was easy enough for me to avoid him cause I could see him, but the people behind me wouldn't have had the same chance and also could have caused them to plow into me when I broke unexpectedly. I think someone told me that he did get run over.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yawn.

If a motard has to stick to their class, why the fuck are you racing a 125 in the F3 class? Isn't that for 400's?

As for my old CBR having better cornering ability than a motard: rubbish! I reckon a good CR500 at just over 110kg was a waaayyy better bike in corners than my old pig of a CBR.

Get the point son, if the bike is eligible it should be allowed to race and fuck the whiners.

BTW: No son, I retired in the 90's and no son, I didn't ONLY race CBR600's, I raced more bikes than I can even remember. That's the problem when you pluck nonsense from the dark hole: it often comes up smelling like shit. Don't try to guess what I've done or put words in my mouth: you'll only make a fool of yourself. If you are really interested just ask instead.



Why am I in F3??
Cause i am made to

Why are Motards in F3??
Cause they want to.

There is a difference.

If i had a class to my own, i would fuck off from F3 and leave them to it. Im not a F3 bike am I? no. Neithers a Motard.

My point is, Why are motards allowed into the streetbike classes just because thier engines let them??

My engine is small enough to enter the motard class, Sweet im going in there

Yeah, right.

If you cant get in and out of a corner faster than a motard, maybe you need to harden up? (as previously i was told to)

Maybe you should return to racing in F3. then you can see first hand how much 'fun' it is now with motards hop-scopping around.

BTW, this aint no dig at you man. You raced bikes and did well on them, that i am yet to even think about going fast on :Punk:

[Joni]

OK I have asked nicely already...
Keep this thread free of personal attacks please, its good subject, the attacks are not needed, just state your opinion.

Keep it clean.

[idleidolidyll]

What has hardening up have to do with jack shit?
I get the feeling that you last raced 50 years ago, you are some what on your own here cobber.

well obviously you're feeling the wrong piece of anatomy.
My last race win was in the 1990's as was my favourite: World Superbike support race at Manfield

and what has 'that' got to do with it?

well the fact that I have raced amongst chookies in road races suggests I am able to speak from experience.

The fact that I raced with them and never complained whether they beat me or not suggests I have an opinion worthy of the first post. If ya don't like it tuff luck.

As for hardening up, that's remains my suggestion. If it's eligible it should be allowed to enter just as 125's enter the F3 class and hold up some 400's with different lines and lack of grunt on the straights.

once more, harden up, learn to race more than 1 line and stop whining when other bikes beat ya.

[Ixion]

I know very little about racing nowdays, and speak entriely as a spectator (or, rather, non spectator).

Firstly, the motards are interesting from the spectators point of view

Secondly, if it be proposed to exclude them, may this not prove difficult to define. What, after all is a "motard" . We all know one when we see one, but how would you write the rule, strictly enough to avoid someone getting round it. their engines are permitted, so you would have to say that some aspect of the bodywork or suspension was forbidden . About the only thing I can see that is noticeably different is that they do not have fairings.

Thirdly, it seems to me (and bear in mind that I speak entirely as an outsider) that it is a bit illogical to say that certain machines (which, on the basis of engine size, power, etc are permissable) should be excluded simply because they encourage a different riding style. Especially as it appears that sometimes that different style is faster. Is that not part of what racing is about ? Improving the breed? If the motards corner differently , yet still win races, maybe that indicates that they are the way of the future?

I wish though that we had motard races with the "off road" bit as they do overseas. That would be worth going to see, the combination of rough going and fast track. Especially if the off road bit was more than a token few yards of cnders. Interesting challengte that would be when it came to tyre selection!

[dangerous]

A) My last race win was in the 1990's

B) The fact that I raced with them and never complained whether they beat me or not suggests I have an opinion worthy of the first post.

C) If it's eligible it should be allowed to enter and stop whining when other bikes beat ya.

a) my last race win was only months ago :Punk: so I think I am more so up to date than you.
b) yeah... in the 90's things have changed big time and verty recently. :mellow:
c) well Retards aint eligible any more... so YOU stop ya bloody winging :yes:


OK I have asked nicely already...
Keep this thread free of personal attacks please, its good subject, the attacks are not needed, just state your opinion.

Keep it clean.

What are you on about???

[idleidolidyll]

What has hardening up have to do with jack shit?
I get the feeling that you last raced 50 years ago, you are some what on your own here cobber.



Or fuck someone else... motards are not eligble in F3 any more so smoke that.
Fella, you are loosing this big time.

losing what? a 'race' of opinions?
there aint no losers in this thread mate, only opinions.
yours is as 'valid' as mine.

Under the old rules a single cylinder 4 stroke of any capacity was eligible for F3 and it made for interesting racing. Dave Moore on hios Morbidelli versus Bill Birch on his KTM engined Ginger Molloy special was a sight to see.
If they've changed the rules to outlaw big singles in F3 then they are barking mad. If they've done it by specifying supermotards, then there are many ways around the issue (ie., a MX bike is not a supermotard unless it was sold as one so just fitting 17" wheels to a chooky should do).

The last thing I want to see is the tiny fields because of restrictions like the suggested motard ban. This happened in the mid eighties and because of it BEARs took over as the best racing format with huge fields and lots of prize money. By about 1988 BEARs was bigger than traditional racing with the Sth Island Sound od Thunder meeting making a $30,000 profit and offering by far the best prize money. BEARs became that popular because the other classes were restricted and only the latest greatest had a chance to win. The suggestion to ban motards is much the same merry go round.

[dangerous]

losing what? a 'race' of opinions?
there aint no losers in this thread mate, only opinions.
yours is as 'valid' as mine.

Yeah man, and I agree with ya there.

[idleidolidyll]

I wish though that we had motard races with the "off road" bit as they do overseas. That would be worth going to see, the combination of rough going and fast track. Especially if the off road bit was more than a token few yards of cnders. Interesting challengte that would be when it came to tyre selection!

damn! imagine idle agreeing with ixion!

well said though, i agree with your while post

In BEARs when I was in charge we banned the water cooled 4 valve 916 style ducatis from the production class. It was a dumb idea but that's what the membership wanted.
In the end it was recognised as dumb and frankly, that's what I think about this motard ban.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Have you though about the fact that motards may be making the feilds smaller??

They are taking over, and people on road race bikes just aint having fun cause these loonys on thier bikes keep scaring them?? Not everyone is 16 and bulletproof.

I believe that they should be allowed into the bears races if they are eligible. Bears is not a specifc class for the model of motorcycle, it is for the Brand of motorcycle.

[Hellraiser]

Keep your foot on the Peg. thats why you have foot pegs.

Or are you afraid you cant handle the bike and need your foot out to make sure you dont drop it?



This comment just show you have no idea what you are talking about, try riding a chock chaser on both dirt and tarmac then you will ubderstand why the foot is out.

Foot should not be at right angles to the bike it should be parallel and forward of the bike.

[idleidolidyll]

a) my last race win was only months ago :Punk: so I think I am more so up to date than you.
b) yeah... in the 90's things have changed big time and verty recently. :mellow:
c) well Retards aint eligible any more... so YOU stop ya bloody winging :yes:



What are you on about???

the issue here has not changed one little bit.

back in the 90's and even the 80's we had 'motards' racing amongst the roadbikes. OK, they were not called motards then but a CR, YZ or KX500 with 17" wheels is a motard and there were even a few KTM LC4 engined racers too.
Yes, they DID slide them into corners (well a few did) and yes, they DID take different lines.
So tell me, what's changed about that? All I can see that's changed is that they are now called motards and that some people are whining about them.

[Sketchy_Racer]

the issue here has not changed one little bit.

back in the 90's and even the 80's we had 'motards' racing amongst the roadbikes. OK, they were not called motards then but a CR, YZ or KX500 with 17" wheels is a motard and there were even a few KTM LC4 engined racers too.
Yes, they DID slide them into corners (well a few did) and yes, they DID take different lines.
So tell me, what's changed about that? All I can see that's changed is that they are now called motards and that some people are whining about them.

Whats changed is there is about 80% more of them now. It would Defintaly not be an issue with 1 or 2. but its getting a little silly out there now.

[dangerous]

So tell me, what's changed about that? All I can see that's changed is that they are now called motards and that some people are whining about them.

numbers man numbers, the week end just gone there were 30 retards in F3 and 11 road bikes.

I see its only fare for the road bikes and motards that they have ther own class.

Do you under stand that???

[idleidolidyll]

Whats changed is there is about 80% more of them now. It would Defintaly not be an issue with 1 or 2. but its getting a little silly out there now.

so motards are popular?

if being popular is a reason to ban a type of bike from a class we're in serious trouble

the thing is, motards are often quicker around twisty tracks than many road bikes. if that's the formula that wins races then the wise racers choose the right bikes: motards.
if others complain it's not the motard riders problem that they choose the best bike to win the class

[Sketchy_Racer]

This comment just show you have no idea what you are talking about, try riding a chock chaser on both dirt and tarmac then you will ubderstand why the foot is out.

Foot should not be at right angles to the bike it should be parallel and forward of the bike.

I do ride a Chock chaser. I have 3 of them.

I do understand the 'real' reason behind the foot out thing. Thats fine on the dirt, knock yourself out.

Ride a chock chaser fast enough on tarmac, and just use your knee.

If you are using your foot to get weight further foward on the bike, lean over the front of your bike some more. then use your knee or even your toes (on the pegs) as a lean indicator, instead of your foot out.

[idleidolidyll]

numbers man numbers, the week end just gone there were 30 retards in F3 and 11 road bikes.

I see its only fare for the road bikes and motards that they have ther own class.

Do you under stand that???

41 bikes in a class? EXCELLENT!

split them up and have 30 in 1 class and 11 in the other? YAWN! nz IS TOO SMALL TO HAVE A CLASS FOR EVERY DAMN TYPE OF BIKE; THAT ARGUMENT HAS POPPED UP EVERY FIVE YEARS SINCE i'VE BEEN RIDING BIKES.

oops, sorry bout the caps, got stuck and i'm too lazy to retype

[Hellraiser]

I do ride a Chock chaser. I have 3 of them.

I do understand the 'real' reason behind the foot out thing. Thats fine on the dirt, knock yourself out.

Ride a chock chaser fast enough on tarmac, and just use your knee.

If you are using your foot to get weight further foward on the bike, lean over the front of your bike some more. then use your knee or even your toes (on the pegs) as a lean indicator, instead of your foot out.

Do you race you chock chasers on an MX track?

You would also understand that due to the ride height of the average chock chaser it requires a differant riding style ( i think the laws of physics may apply here too)

In your varst racing experance you may have noticed that chock chasers are pushed down into the corner with the rider more ontop of it rather than leaning with the bike. Now i don't know about you but i don't have a magical legs that all of a sudden get longer when i go around a corner so i can't keep them on the pegs, so what do i do with it?

I lift it out of the way .........

Now i'm not going to go into the whole counter steering thing with you because i know what an experanced rider you are and wouldn't want to insult you by explaining shit that you already know but just try riding a Motard before making some of your ignorant comments.

But back to the topic on hand i do agree that the Motards should have a class of there own as they have the numbers to warrant it as do bike like the SV's. So once we take the Motards & SV's out of F3 and give them there own classes we can then listen to those left to moan about how they no longer have anyone to race against.

But you can't please everyone.

[Kickaha]

That's always been the case. NZ racing has never really had a 125 class because it just isn't popular and probably never will be.


are you sure about that, it's a class that has run since the early nineties and at a National level I've seen grids of 24+ bikes, it's only in perhaps the last 3-4 years the numbers have dropped off but there were still 17 on the grid at Puke for the 06 Nationals


They ALLOW YOU to ride in the F3 class and 125's generallytake different lines to a 400 so you shouldn't really complain about other bikes just because can be ridden differently.

They only allow that at a club level because all the F3 guys started whinging about being beaten by the 125GP bikes all the time and the fact they 125GP could cross enter in F3, fuck that sound familiar some how


a 250cc 2 stroke isn't eligible for F3 is it? Not unless the rules have changed in the last few years .

They have been for ages but only road based production models

The BEARs club sorted the motard issue down here within a couple of meetings of them turning up

"If you wish to run a motard, no backing it in and keep your feet on the pegs while you're running in road based classes or you can go home"

[jahrasti]

If motard fields are big enough then why shouldn't they get there own class?
Why do you think they have cross entries in f1 and f2 for club racing?For numbers.
I have had a couple of moments with the motard riders in f3 but hey shit happens. for me it is the size of the fieds.

[idleidolidyll]

"If you wish to run a motard, no backing it in and keep your feet on the pegs while you're running in road based classes or you can go home"

Now THAT is a better way to do it. A ban is dumb but ensuring a safe race is smart.

BUT.............I've seen GP racers back in their bikes for years..............are we gonna ban hard riding next?

[jahrasti]

Now THAT is a better way to do it. A ban is dumb but ensuring a safe race is smart.

BUT.............I've seen GP racers back in their bikes for years..............are we gonna ban hard riding next?

No we will ban watching the hard riding.:bye:

[idleidolidyll]

If motard fields are big enough then why shouldn't they get there own class?
Why do you think they have cross entries in f1 and f2 for club racing?For numbers.
I have had a couple of moments with the motard riders in f3 but hey shit happens. for me it is the size of the fieds.

There's more to it than that. The more classes you have the longer it takes to cycle through them, particularly if there are crashes.
If Wanganui had more clases this year it would have been a disaster. Even with the classes they had they were running over an hour late.

BTW: since Yamaha and Suzuki 1000cc bikes are winning everything in F1, shouldn't we ban them for being so dammned popular?! (sarcasm)

So what is an ideal field size?
I reckon up to 50 bikes is great on most NZ tracks. Over 50 bikes and they should limit the field size NOT by banning a particular type of bike but by excluding the slowest qualifiers (who are usually the ones who get in the way of the top riders). Those guys could have their own 'clubmans' race instead regardless of size rules.
+-

[NordieBoy]

I can understand why, the different lines of a motard bike can upset those of a road bike.
What different lines?

[TonyB]

The problem is when racing (rather than just a track day) there is a competition going on... who is the fastest obviously. And people do spend a whole lotta money to race and may have just one bike, and able to enter just one class. I can definately imagine their annoyance to see a motard in 3 or more classes , and at times stuffing it up for the riders who ONLY have that class to race in.
Just cos they CAN go in a class does not mean that they SHOULD.

My point exactly- I'm not so much speaking from my own experience, just imagining what it would be like being an F3 rider in NZ at the moment. Or someone that turns up at a meeting with $20K or more invested in a bike that can only run in one class, and then listening in disbelief when some riders start complaining that they can now only run in two. As I already said, I looked at buying a Motard because they offer such awesome value for for money- one bike that does just about everything. No doubt my viewpoint would be different if I had bought one.

Idle, maybe you have a point. Maybe everyone should just go and buy a motard, but then we wouldn't be developing racers to potentially go overseas. from what I've seen of the World Champs on TV, they race Motards on go-kart tracks, with areas of dirt jumps etc thrown in. Very different from whats being done here.
Also Idle, I think Dangerous and RG100 have a point- you raced a CBR600 against the occasional dirt bikes with road tyres in the 90's. You shouldn't have had any trouble beating them, especially considering you appear to be a racer of some talent. Fourstroke dirt bike development has come a hell of a long way in that time, they are a whole lot faster than they were before, plus you can walk into a shop and buy a purpose build motard RACER, a machine built expressly for the purpose of motard racing, and then you can line it up against 400cc fours from the early 90's, Hyosung GT650s, and SV650s. A 100kg, purpose built race machine verses a mildly developed midsized 175kg dry sports tourer.

[jahrasti]

There's more to it than that. The more classes you have the longer it takes to cycle through them, particularly if there are crashes.
If Wanganui had more clases this year it would have been a disaster. Even with the classes they had they were running over an hour late.

BTW: since Yamaha and Suzuki 1000cc bikes are winning everything in F1, shouldn't we ban them for being so dammned popular?! (sarcasm)

So what is an ideal field size?
I reckon up to 50 bikes is great on most NZ tracks. Over 50 bikes and they should limit the field size NOT by banning a particular type of bike but by excluding the slowest qualifiers (who are usually the ones who get in the way of the top riders). Those guys could have their own 'clubmans' race instead regardless of size rules.
+-


You have some good points, I wasn't at wanganui but didn't they have their own class. Anyway F3 rules are possibly going through a bunch of possible changes and if the SV boys have the rules changed about suspension then motards will be the last thing on their mind.

carry on nothing to see here

[Tim 39]

Motards are an issue running in F3, there's enough of them to give them their own class where they can all do rarkys and wheelstands together. Some of it isn't just the bikes, the riders also think that theyre bigger than me (I ride an RS125) so they can just push me round the track, I don't take it, and then they think I would've just let them past WRONG, so then they don't know what to do when I don't let them past, and end up a touch worried for their safety and end up closer to me than they had planned, or are surprised when I take 125 lines for some reason. I think you'll find most F3 riders and almost all of the 125 riders are sick of it. The Motard guys are probably sick of us too, so best for all parties I feel.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Do you race you chock chasers on an MX track?

You would also understand that due to the ride height of the average chock chaser it requires a differant riding style ( i think the laws of physics may apply here too)

In your varst racing experance you may have noticed that chock chasers are pushed down into the corner with the rider more ontop of it rather than leaning with the bike. Now i don't know about you but i don't have a magical legs that all of a sudden get longer when i go around a corner so i can't keep them on the pegs, so what do i do with it?

I lift it out of the way .........

Now i'm not going to go into the whole counter steering thing with you because i know what an experanced rider you are and wouldn't want to insult you by explaining shit that you already know but just try riding a Motard before making some of your ignorant comments.

But back to the topic on hand i do agree that the Motards should have a class of there own as they have the numbers to warrant it as do bike like the SV's. So once we take the Motards & SV's out of F3 and give them there own classes we can then listen to those left to moan about how they no longer have anyone to race against.

But you can't please everyone.

Man, you really took that in a negetive way.

I do like motards, and i do love watching them race, In thier own class.

Also to do with feet on pegs or not,

It seems this guy doesnt have an issue. He must have magical legs

here two guys racing motards.

Guess who was winning

[NordieBoy]

It seems this guy doesnt have an issue. He must have magical legs

here two guys racing motards.

Guess who was winning

Hmmm, the guy on the 620 or the guy on the 450...

If the class is Motards only then they can race as Motards do - Leg out and sliding.
If the class is mixed then they cannot put their legs out.

Simple.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeap. that works for me.

But its still a shame to have a good class like F3 swamped by Motards

[Hellraiser]

Too be honest i think there are bigger problems in the road racing scene in NZ than weather motards should have there own races or not ......... lol

MCNZ seems to promote MX more than Road Racing these days.

[Tim 39]

I agree with RG100 in this argument also, It's not that we (the 125 riders) aren't winning against the motards. I bet all of them last time at ruapuna, but still had that issue of getting past them, with their "different" riding. It's more of a safety issue because of the different lines and riding technique. 125's are fine in F3 I think, because we take roadrace lines and so do the F3 guys funnily enough. They don't put their feet out, and niether do we.
F3 is for roadbikes, If they have their own class already they should be happy with that.
and as for all that about choosing your bike better, I disagree. and I'd have to say if you were on an F3 bike and were being held up by a 125 on the straights because of their lack of power, you aren't all that smart, the straight isnt a hard place to pass somebody!!

[Sketchy_Racer]

haha,

What people need to do, is forget the motards.

And get 125GP bikes!!
I cant figure how people would rather buy some baggy old street bike, with rooted suspension, and then wanna race it!!!

How about just buy a purpose built race bike and ride the sucker.

(but i would say that)

[dangerous]

If the class is Motards only then they can race as Motards do - Leg out and sliding.
If the class is mixed then they cannot put their legs out.

Simple.

Arghhhh, but they do... at riders breifing last w/e they were told keep feet on pegs... ok now go look at your photos, yeah look at em all with their legs out


if being popular is a reason to ban a type of bike from a class we're in serious trouble


They are not being baned ya twit... they have been given a class of their own :doh:

[Paul in NZ]

Sort of depends what you want...

If i was a real road racer I'd want pukka GP bikes in an orderly fashion etc etc and hardly anyone would hang about for the prize giving.

If i was a promoter I'd want motards plus MORE motards AND I would not be paying bugger all for first place but I'd pay a bonus for slides (Backing it in), wheelies and assorted stupid shit. Fuck if I could arrange a team to do synchonised slides and shit I'd pay em double....

Weird eh?

[NordieBoy]

ARE, but they do... at riders breifing last w/e they were told keep feet on pegs... ok now go look at your photos, yeah look at em all with their legs out

317 - Noticed him doing it and wondered if he'd get told off.
35 - He's got a good excuse.

Now how about all those naughty wheelies then :D

Motards should race in the Motard class.

But how do you define "Motard"?

In UK the rules used to be "Max of 3 cylinders" and that was it.
The dirt section imposes it's own rules :Punk:

[dangerous]

Tony started this thread off to get peoples ideas on MNZ giving Motards their own class of racing... now some how people are getting the idea that they have been 'bared full stop'
Not so, so lets stop thinking that the retards are being hard done by... eg: Port Nelson st races last w/e... motards had up to 6 races and 2 pratices, some of the other classes only got 1 pratice and 1-2 races.
So stop thinking the bastards are being hard done by.

[Suzi Q]

I am not a racer, a potential racer but not one yet. I am a spectator, pit bitch and amateur photographer. I love to watch the Motards, they are certainly fun and different - I love it when they wheelie (my guilty pleasure!). After the debacle of Nelson street races I believe they should have their own class and stick with that. I understand 1 rider complained about not having enough races and that he had come all this way!!! They gave them 2 races in the round - why is that? Are they extra special? No other class got an extra race. After reading this thread I think they should count themselves lucky they get to ride street races as it seems a motard is a combination road and dirt bike and they have special races with road and dirt - I haven't seen it in CHCH though.

[sugilite]

This is an interesting thread for me. I race 3 bikes in 3 classes, Super Bike, Post Classic Senior and Motard. The Motard is a kx500. It's waiting for $$$ for bits before I race it again. There seems to be a lot of mis-information from both sides of the fence in this thread. (I'm sitting in a motel in Invercargill on a slow connection and cannot be bothered going through so many posts again to quote them all)

Heres some of my impressions.
Motards when ridden at their best still take road bike lines.
You can use the knee down style. I have the motard lap record for the manfield short circuit, a 1:18 flat, and that was using my slow motor. I found sticking my foot out slows me down, at lap record pace anyways.

When motards back it in big time, I simply stuff it up the inside and take their line, did it to Barry Briggs plenty at Mt Wellington kart track...I took the silver ware...again, using knee down style :yes:

As they are to have their own class and are banned from racing in other classes, it is a moot point discussing that side of things.

If they are allowed in other classes at club level racing, then give preference to the deicated class bikes and cap the numbers and make up the rest with motard bikes. I think 50 is to many idleidolidyll, 40 sounds good to me, just my opinion...

When I've raced against motards on my roadrace bikes, it has not worried me about their foot out, I outbrake them stuff it up the inside just the same, does not seem to make them wider to me.

Anyways, I think you will soon see motard specialist tracks popping up soon and that will drain significant numbers from the road race meets. :yes:

[Titanium]

But the first thing that I saw was the very different lines of the motards and road bikes. Having the back of a bike step out on purpose to the extent that it does on most but not all corners could be quite un-nerving.

I like the suggestion about letting the side cars and motards run together ..... would be a blast, wonder who the first to complain would be?

I guess they are all racers at the end of the day and should be able to handle what is thrown at them.

The poll question seems to be one of "are they greedy" rather than are they compatible with the sports bikes, letting them run in 1 class and motard, if they pay for 6 classes (6 x entry fee) then let them run in as many as they pay for.

If it is a safety issue ... they should only run in motard ... oh yeah and with the side cars .... haha

Do they pay more to enter additional classes?, same amount per class? if so there is a commercial benefit to allow them to do it, for the organisers, I guess money talks.

The moment safety is compromised on the race track it becomes a liabilty issue for the organisers.

Just my 10 cents worth.

P/s Sugilite is right ..... if enough get discontented with racing with sports bikes or political reasons for not getting the racing they want, then there will be a natural split to motard only events.

[Kickaha]

I like the suggestion about letting the side cars and motards run together ..... would be a blast, wonder who the first to complain would be?

wouldn't be the sidecars, you'd probably find the swingers would take stuff with them to throw at the motards :yes:

[gav]

Hmmm, interesting.
OK, lets take Port Nelson Street Races for a start. If it wasnt for the MXers out there, there would never have been a Port Street race, fact!
The street circuits tend to highlight the differences in the bikes more than a proper built circuit, but also you have guys from two different backgrounds, the guys with a dirt background who race the occasional street race will ride as they know how, ie as a dirt bike, backing it in and squaring off the corners. The guys from a road race background tend to race them more as a road bike, ie faster corner speeds, more sweeping lines. Nelson has a more dirt bike based crowd so you tend to get them surfacing more.
MX bikes have been around for ages usually in F3, the fact that the road bikes eligible for F3 havent advanced while the dirt bikes have (you seen the V twin Aprilia 550? :gob: ) tend to make it a hard class to judge. If you kick them out, youre left with maybe 10 bikes. A good point though, was why have a Bears class? If you race a modern Bears bike, you should go OK in the Formula classes. If its old, race it in the Classics. I think we tend to have too many classes at some races.
If you have some odd ball bike, either run a clubmans class, or take it club racing, don't expect to have a class just for your bike.
Maybe the whole Street racing needs a bit of an overhaul, how about a max of 5 classes, if you dont get 20 entries for a class you lose that class. 5 classes 3-4 races per class. If youre able to cross enter, either one bike in two classes or race two different bikes, cool, but its up to you to be ready to go when needed and required, If you're late to the gate, bad luck.
Alot of those Motard bikes are bloody expensive and are a fair old investment, way more than a bucket and/or post classic or even F3 bike.
I think if they suit the rules in place they should be eligible to race.

[dangerous]

OK, lets take Port Nelson Street Races for a start. If it wasnt for the MXers out there, there would never have been a Port Street race, fact!

Crap not a fact at all Gav
Ill say this one last time... Motards have not been excluded from racing... but put in a class of their own.
as far as your 'Nelson' comment... the Motards had two races to all other classes one race, another words they were well catered for... to the point were F4 had one race all day to there 5-6.

[gav]

Crap not a fact at all Gav

errr, yes it is actually.....:innocent:

To get the very first Port Nelson Street race off the ground it was essential that we got the MXers on to the track. The committee needed the local club (Motorcycling Nelson) backing to get a permit, and also had to have the approval of the local steward etc. It was only the approach of "lets see how good you boys are on tarmac" that got any interest. This took a fair bit of lobbying and promoting to convince the club that it could work. The Nelson club was pro dirt and werent really interested in it happening at all. It was only being able to some of the top local MX guys interested that got the Nelson club interested enough to be prepared to back it. Think we gave them there own class to start with as they were a little err "loose" to start with!


Ill say this one last time... Motards have not been excluded from racing... but put in a class of their own.
as far as your 'Nelson' comment... the Motards had two races to all other classes one race, another words they were well catered for... to the point were F4 had one race all day to there 5-6.
I guess the organisers were catering to the numbers entered?
It is inexcusable that some missed out though, one of the problems is, is lack of experience from the organisers, they only run one race a year, and often get a bunch of newbies who think they are helping. Those guys that have helped in previous years are often more than willing to let others have a go.
But still, if you exclude Motards from other classes, do you exclude 600's from running in F1. The other "problem" is most of those Motards are probably the most expensive bikes on the grid, do they get a bigger say because of this?
I'm not behind the times, D. Do you know how much some of those bikes are worth? Theres some fairly committed guys out there, not sure you should be pissing them off. If they are riding dangerously wave the black flag and exclude them from that race, they'll soon learn!
The other thing is pay extra per class entered, not let people cross enter for no extra fee. If you miss races, you get a refund for your entry fee for that class, might work?

[gav]

Can anyone actually point to proof that Motards have been excluded from future Formula classes? Nothing on the MNZ website to suggest this? Was it in fact, just at the Port Nelson race where the organisers kicked them out?

[Kickaha]

Alot of those Motard bikes are bloody expensive and are a fair old investment, way more than a bucket and/or post classic or even F3 bike.



The other "problem" is most of those Motards are probably the most expensive bikes


Do you know how much some of those bikes are worth?


The price of the bike is irrelevant, the F1 guys pay even more and can only enter in one class


Theres some fairly committed guys out there, not sure you should be pissing them off.

there's faily committted guys in every class, are you saying commitment is measured by the price you pay for yuor bike?

[gav]

It does show some form of committment doesnt it? Especially if you've got 30 or so riders looking at racing.
Buckets at times, has struggled to be taken seriously, due to the appearance of the bikes and term "buckets", even though alot of the guys racing are pulling the same strings etc to get out on the track. After all travel, accomodation, entry fees etc are all the same regardless what bike you are racing.
TonyB made a comment about a $20K race bike and only getting 1 race, alot of those Supermotards would be nudging that figure too.

[DEATH_INC.]

Man, you really took that in a negetive way.

I do like motards, and i do love watching them race, In thier own class.

Also to do with feet on pegs or not,

It seems this guy doesnt have an issue. He must have magical legs

here two guys racing motards.

Guess who was winning
Have a look again at the pics in this post, then look at a pic of an F1 bike at full lean and tell me which is wider? Foot out makes no real difference to the width......and a motard going sideways is no wider than a sprotbike going sideways.(look at the pic of hayden in gavs avatar for example)
The only real issue is the different lines.....

[TonyB]

In mid 2005 I spoke to an F1 rider who had taken out a second mortgage for the 04/05 season, and had just about lost his house. He managed to hold it all together and keep racing. The point being that he is heavily financially committed to racing, to a degree most of us can't even appreciate. He gets to race in the F1 class only, and if he turned up at Nelson, from what Sparkybills said, he'd have some cheeky bugger on a Motard trying to get out in his class too.

Maybe the real issue is that times have moved on, and the capacity restrictions in each class need looking at? F3 rules were made at a time when you could, for instance, buy a new FZR400 or RGV250, (do they even make a modern equivalent of those bikes anymore?), and a fast Motard didn't even exist.

[NordieBoy]

In theory Motards should be rapped they're getting excluded :)

It means there's enough numbers and recognition for their very own class.

[TonyB]

The only real issue is the different lines.....
Different or 'erratic' lines would mean more cases of bikes and riders bouncing off eachother- maybe thats the real issue, that and perhaps when a tyre rubs against a knee thats touching the ground, the pysical size of a knee means that the tyre will only rub against the knee. Whereas with a foot the tyre will just run the foot over... which can't be good

[DEATH_INC.]

Different or 'erratic' lines would mean more cases of bikes and riders bouncing off eachother- maybe thats the real issue, that and perhaps when a tyre rubs against a knee thats touching the ground, the pysical size of a knee means that the tyre will only rub against the knee. Whereas with a foot the tyre will just run the foot over... which can't be good
Yeh.....but when yer racing do you worry about running over someone's foot? And, I really doubt you'll be going up the inside of a motard on a sprotbike.....

[scott411]

alot of the problems with the motards seem to be that they take different lines

i think this could be that a lot of motard riders come from a mx background (incl me) where we square corners off, also we do not mind being a bit aggrressive and taking the inside line where it is offered,

someone mentioned a few pages back about setting up a motard to pass and then teh guy haveing the nerve to shove it back up the inside ont eh next corner,

how dare he, not rying to repass someone, he should have just followed me for a bit to learn race lines,

my ass, if some passes me, (on a motard, or a 400, or a 600, or a gp 125 or on a fucken horse) he better have the inside protected in the next corner as to right i am going to try to out brake him, and if he does protect the inside i am going to try and go around him. thats fucken racing,

if i am not allowed to cross enter my motard in other classes thats fine, however if its one bike one class thats the rule for everyone, no bears and f1, no post classics and f3 on your pre 89 400, no f1 and f2 on your 600,

fair enough if comeone is being dangerous black flag him, that what it is thier for,

[Rashika]

In theory Motards should be rapped they're getting excluded :)

It means there's enough numbers and recognition for their very own class.

yup agreed!
I can understand why they go in other classes when they DONT have their own...same could be said for the 125's, and when buckets are combined with streetstock, we manage and are happy enough to have a race with each other even tho a few of the 'other' bikes get in the way at times...

But when you do have your own dedicated class, and then bitch about not being allowed in with the others in their own dedicated class... quite frankly piss off and leave us to it.
I'd say quite a few people are actually put off going in some of the classes because they know they will have to race with SOME motards who are... quite frankly... damn risky racers.

[Rashika]

fair enough if comeone is being dangerous black flag him, that what it is thier for,
shame they didn't in the Nelson KOP race to the motard with his sidestand dangling down for the entire 10 laps of the race... most of the spectators around me commented on it, but he didn't get flagged by a marshall... I'm guessing a mistake on their part rather than a deliberate avoidance of having to black flag someone

[dangerous]

Have a look again at the pics in this post, then look at a pic of an F1 bike at full lean and tell me which is wider? Foot out makes no real difference to the width......and a motard going sideways is no wider than a sprotbike going sideways.(look at the pic of hayden in gavs avatar for example)
The only real issue is the different lines.....

The way I see it reguardlass if its a foot or a knee... the tard is a taller bike and you generaly sit up right on it hence they take up a lot more room... what Im saying is a road bike cranked over the riders leg/knee is still under the bike (not poking out further in most cases, there are some that have their own style which in my opinion is over kill) and the tard riders are the same the leg/foot dosnt go much past the bike/riders head... but due to there hight it is easyer to run em over... with a leg out that far if the bike let go, its going to brake a bone were as a knee out generaly means a fucking sore knee.



errr, yes it is actually.....

I guess the organisers were catering to the numbers entered?
It is inexcusable that some missed out though, one of the problems is, is lack of experience from the organisers, they only run one race a year, and often get a bunch of newbies who think they are helping. Those guys that have helped in previous years are often more than willing to let others have a go.
But still, if you exclude Motards from other classes, do you exclude 600's from running in F1. The other "problem" is most of those Motards are probably the most expensive bikes on the grid, do they get a bigger say because of this?
I'm not behind the times, D. Do you know how much some of those bikes are worth? Theres some fairly committed guys out there, not sure you should be pissing them off. If they are riding dangerously wave the black flag and exclude them from that race, they'll soon learn!
The other thing is pay extra per class entered, not let people cross enter for no extra fee. If you miss races, you get a refund for your entry fee for that class, might work?

Sorry Gav didnt relise you were talking about the 'good old days' again, my crap remark was aimed at last w/e race.

Yes I know how much some of these guys spend... an the funny thing is look at the poll results, most motard riders want their own class, its a very few people that are not wanting that and it seems to me none cruntly race.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Scott411

You say if you guys can only enter your own class, that we are not allowed to cross enter??

I think you guys are forgetting that the events we are talking about ARE road race meetings, NOT a motard meetings.

Sure you guys run your own event, and if you need extra numbers to make it worth while, let street bikes in. Then YOU can make the rules as to what the streetbikes can and cant do.

if 100 streetbike racers are saying "We dont want you in our class" then there is a reason, and the motards can stay in thier class.

Its not just engine capacity that lets F3 bikes run post classics is it?? Nope.
Im sure if your Motard is Pre 89 im sure they will let you in no worrys.

There is more to cross entering a class than just engine size, maybe MNZ needs to Change the rules about what Type of bike can cross enter.

It would be Semi easy to make the rules clear enough about which bikes cant go into a class, lets say F3 (example

" 0- 450cc 4 cylinder 4 strokes 0 - 650cc twin 4 strokes. 0-500 single (excluding bikes bikes that are manufactured for off road use)......

[Hellraiser]

It would be Semi easy to make the rules clear enough about which bikes cant go into a class, lets say F3 (example

" 0- 450cc 4 cylinder 4 strokes 0 - 650cc twin 4 strokes. 0-500 single (excluding bikes bikes that are manufactured for off road use)......

LOL ....... that won't work cause there are now purpose build motards which have not been designed for off road use

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah, and they are whats going to be the bikes that ruin the 'cheap' status of motard racing.

I hate it when manufatures do things like that, and just turn another good class into a huge money competition.

If you are referring to the aprilia Vtwins, then i think they could still be excluded, be cause to fit in with FIM rules for motard racing, they have to be able to be ridden on the dirt, which means they are also off road bikes.

But, to be honest its not the 1 or 2 motards that cause a problem, its when over 50% of the feild is made outta them.

Some good points in this thread, and I beleive it would be good if we could get some people Higher up (MNZ) to have a look through the opinions.

-Glen

[scott411]

Scott411


Its not just engine capacity that lets F3 bikes run post classics is it?? Nope.
Im sure if your Motard is Pre 89 im sure they will let you in no worrys.

There is more to cross entering a class than just engine size, maybe MNZ needs to Change the rules about what Type of bike can cross enter.

It would be Semi easy to make the rules clear enough about which bikes cant go into a class, lets say F3 (example

" 0- 450cc 4 cylinder 4 strokes 0 - 650cc twin 4 strokes. 0-500 single (excluding bikes bikes that are manufactured for off road use)......

what i am trying to say is

if we are not allowed to cross enter classes when out bikes are elgibile why should any one else be,

[scott411]

Yeah, and they are whats going to be the bikes that ruin the 'cheap' status of motard racing.
-Glen

motard racing will never be as cheap as MX, with tyres, trye warmers etc it has already got to a similar price to F3

[Rashika]

Scott411

Its not just engine capacity that lets F3 bikes run post classics is it?? Nope.
Im sure if your Motard is Pre 89 im sure they will let you in no worrys.


ha! ;)
Funnily enough there was at least 1 "almost a Motard" bike in post classic last weekend at nelson... but that was the thing, THERE WAS ONLY 1!
not 30% or more as seems to be happening with F3

[Sketchy_Racer]

what i am trying to say is

if we are not allowed to cross enter classes when out bikes are elgibile why should any one else be,

My point is, that your bike is not (as per title of this thread) a Formula bike, so why should you be able to cross enter into the Formula classes??

Cross enter into bears (if elegible) or even post classics (again if elegible)

But motards are NOT a formula bike, so shouldnt be allowed into formula classes, just the same as formula bikes arent allowed into motard.

My point all along, you have your class, Use it.

[NordieBoy]

ha! ;)
Funnily enough there was at least 1 "almost a Motard" bike in post classic last weekend at nelson... but that was the thing, THERE WAS ONLY 1!
not 30% or more as seems to be happening with F3

Yes but Darren's DR400 hardly counts as a motorcycle let alone a Motard :D
More duct tape and noise than what is traditionally envisaged as the minimum components needed to qualify as a motorcycle.

[scott411]

But motards are NOT a formula bike, so shouldnt be allowed into formula classes, just the same as formula bikes arent allowed into motard.

.

what is a formula bike?, my bike is 0-open single cylinder, so it is eligible for F3, isn;t it

i agree with you that one guy entering F1, F2, and F3 on one bike is not on, i also think that it is stupid to let 600 race the f1 class, (like bernard team did at wanganui even tho they had r1's sitting in the pits)

[Sketchy_Racer]

ahh,
You see thats where there needs to be a posible change in the rules to cleary state what is a motard.

Nothing wrong with 600s in F1 (not at the nats though) alot of 600s are faster than quite a few of the 1000 guys.

Same i recon that SV650s are fine to go into F2. Cant see why not.

Dunno about 125GP bikes in F2.... At a club level, yeah i guess thats ok. (i would say that though)

[scott411]

but it takes more skill to ride a 1000 quick than to ride a 600 quick (thats why most people are faster on 600's), let the f1 guys race their big bikes agaisnt each other,

if it is good enough for the 600's to be elgible 2 classes (F2 and F1) why not let the motards ride the 2 classes they are eligible for

[scracha]

if it is good enough for the 600's to be elgible 2 classes (F2 and F1) why not let the motards ride the 2 classes they are eligible for

Ok, if they want 2 classes then how about one for motards and then just lump them in with the sidecars as they take different lines too :-)

Motard racing seems a bit strange over here. Back in Froggyland the races seemed to have dirt and jumps and stuff.

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[Hellraiser]

According to the rule book that i have read 600 are not elgible to compete in F1


Capacity
700cc ñ Open 4-stroke 3 & 4 Cylinder
800cc ñ Open 4-stroke Twin Cylinder

or am i reading the wrong rules?

[Sketchy_Racer]

I dont think your getting my point

This has nothing to do with who gets to do what.

A 600 and a 1000 both ridden in very similar ways. I dont hear the 1000 riders complaining about the lines of 600s. Maybe only if they are getting thier arse whooped by a 600

This has to do, with the fact that your bikes ARENT street bikes, so DONT come into the street bike class. (which are the Formula classes)

You Have you own class, stop being so greedy.

If you can get into bears or classics then great, but the Formula classes arent and never will be for motards (dirt bikes ridden on tarseal)

And dont anyone give me this "what makes a motard"

Cause if you cant tell, your too dumb to be racing fullstop

[Sketchy_Racer]

According to the rule book that i have read 600 are not elgible to compete in F1



or am i reading the wrong rules?

Yep, they tecnically arent allowed, but for some reason, most clubs will let them in. Dunno why.

[Rashika]

Yes but Darren's DR400 hardly counts as a motorcycle let alone a Motard :D
More duct tape and noise than what is traditionally envisaged as the minimum components needed to qualify as a motorcycle.

yeah ;) I DID say ALMOST! :dodge:

[pervert]

Motards are so fucking cool, they should be able to do whatever they want. :yes:

[Brian d marge]

alot of the problems with the motards seem to be that they take different lines

i think this could be that a lot of motard riders come from a mx background (incl me) where we square corners off, also we do not mind being a bit aggrressive and taking the inside line where it is offered,

someone mentioned a few pages back about setting up a motard to pass and then teh guy haveing the nerve to shove it back up the inside ont eh next corner,

how dare he, not rying to repass someone, he should have just followed me for a bit to learn race lines,

my ass, if some passes me, (on a motard, or a 400, or a 600, or a gp 125 or on a fucken horse) he better have the inside protected in the next corner as to right i am going to try to out brake him, and if he does protect the inside i am going to try and go around him. thats fucken racing,

if i am not allowed to cross enter my motard in other classes thats fine, however if its one bike one class thats the rule for everyone, no bears and f1, no post classics and f3 on your pre 89 400, no f1 and f2 on your 600,

fair enough if comeone is being dangerous black flag him, that what it is thier for,

and to add to the above, as far as I am aware its only good ole NZ who is different ....Motards or Moto Tt started as a who is the best in their field , ie it is SUPPOsed to have an offroad section.. ( I think it is getting to specialised , with aprillias and the dirt sections are getting smaller ,,but thats my opinion )

Well done wanganui for adding a section ,,,

Sorry but here racing is a. big business , and b, well supported , So So the grids are full ,,and its good to watch 30 superbikes heading into the first turn

Because of this the rules are clearly laid down. ( I was watching enduro cross last nite and as the man said to the booing crowd ,,,folks there is a 10 000 dollar purse for this race , the other racers would have done the same pass in a heart beat !!!! and a trials bike did actually do very well ! so the rules need to be VERY clear ,,see the F1 cars for clear rules ,,Ferrari getting in trouble for a flexing wing ,,,when money is involved... ... )

At the end of the day , racing is going from point A to B as fast as the bike you have chosen will allow you ...theres the track ...now go.

Now some bike are better at some things than others ...so you chose the most appropriate tool for the job,,,,

Now lets step it up a notch , you need to win ,,,so I would be looking very carefully at the rules to see what advantages I could get ,,the more I have at stake ,,the more I get concerned about the advantages offered to me ( eg classic racing in britain, the top bike ,,are almost modern machinery that just so happen to look like a 1907 alldays and Onions ) ,,

there I would like to leave the serious part , because I doubt most people on this list spend/have at stake some of the money that some companies invest in racing ,,,( FCC in Japan only races at club and national level ... and you should see what they bring to play with )

So I guess its all about having fun , since there isnt anything at stake ..only the cost of competing ...and Joe rocket on a 1905 Wheeser isnt actually a danger to the other racers / spectators then the problem is ????
Who did the crowd love more at Wanganui ,,,the winner of the side cars or that ole Triumph ????

Finally I think it is strange to see MX bikes racing against F3 ( one the one hand I think that class is a real balls up , on the other hand its good to see a wide range of machinery competing ) but as there is nothing at stake it doesnt matter ....

so you spend 700 dollars and travel to the south Island and get third in your class ,,,you get?? .. a good feeling and a hell of alot of enjoyment ..so ,,, just get out there and enjoy yourself ...

One thing though ( IMHO) if you are competing at an event where spectators have paid money to watch then , you have an obligation to those spectators to provide value for money to them ( again back to this enduro cross , the MC was checking and rechecking the crowds reaction always trying to give the spectator value for money .....for a very good reason to )

6 bikes circulating around a windswept paddock , with something passing for a luke warm hotdog covered with red wallpaper paste,,,is pretty rugged ..
I would prefer a warm place with a beer watching bikes passing a few cm from me nose ...with toilets close at hand ..oh and nice food , a short walk from me seat ...oh and a few shops/stalls ..

Stephen

Stephen

If you want to win . do something about it , or as uncle chopper says take one of those harden up pills

[Bonez]

Y
Problem... pleanty actually:
They take different lines causing havoc
brake and acelarate different causing havoc
take up a shit load of room when cranked over
over fill the F3 classes to excess
dangerous foot work (not all)

Like I stated. The racing is much more interesting..............
As mentioned races can have number caps.

[dangerous]

Like I stated. The racing is much more interesting..............
As mentioned races can have number caps.

yeah it is interesting, but the day when a acco results in a death... thats the end of street racing in NZ... and that will be a sad day as street racing is a part of NZ.


but it takes more skill to ride a 1000 quick than to ride a 600 quick (thats why most people are faster on 600's), let the f1 guys race their big bikes agaisnt each other,

if it is good enough for the 600's to be elgible 2 classes (F2 and F1) why not let the motards ride the 2 classes they are eligible for

IMHO... 600's should not be raced in F1 they are a completly different bike and there for a rider can not be compaired with a thour rider... like you said in the above quote.


Yes but Darren's DR400 hardly counts as a motorcycle let alone a Motard :D
More duct tape and noise than what is traditionally envisaged as the minimum components needed to qualify as a motorcycle.

Still... passing that fucker was still hard work, Im buggered If I know how the he he rode that thing the rear tyre was bloody near flat and the front was like 100 yrs old... screw that.

[Kickaha]

Still... passing that fucker was still hard work, Im buggered If I know how the he he rode that thing the rear tyre was bloody near flat and the front was like 100 yrs old... screw that.

If you were any good he wouldn't have been in front of you from the start :bleh:

[dangerous]

If you were any good he wouldn't have been in front of you from the start :bleh:
shut up... you wernt there, any way.. you seen Darren on his big block... yeah well he rode the DR in the same fassion.

[NordieBoy]

shut up... you wernt there, any way.. you seen Darren on his big block... yeah well he rode the DR in the same fassion.

He rides the DR cause it handles like the Harley but with more power :D

[NordieBoy]

This has to do, with the fact that your bikes ARENT street bikes, so DONT come into the street bike class. (which are the Formula classes)

The Aprillia SXV is sold as a street bike with lights and blinkers.

They've been making factory street motards since the early 1990's (if you don't count the TDR 250).

They should have a seperate class though (with dirt section).

[Sketchy_Racer]

The Aprillia SXV is sold as a street bike with lights and blinkers.

They've been making factory street motards since the early 1990's (if you don't count the TDR 250).

They should have a seperate class though (with dirt section).

Yes, they are sold as street bikes, But they are also sold as dirt bikes, as per the FIM rules, so they can race in motards.

As said earlier, If you cant tell the difference between a motard and a streetbike, you're an idiot.

[gav]

So according to your theory RG100, no GP based bikes like your RS or TZ125 or a 250 GP bike should be allowed in a street race either, as they arent street bikes?
And don't the 600 boys complain about the 1000's holding them up in the corners then blasting off down the straights, not the 1000's complaining about the 600's!
Most of the European factories now build production Supermotard bikes, KTM, Aprilia, Husky, Husaberg etc, then you get the modified MX bikes like the RMZ450, YZF450, CRF450 etc, and also the two strokers but probably less of these now.
Still think its at few tracks and mainly the tighter street circuits that the Motards cause a problem. What was the turn out like at Greymouth? Was there big numbers there? Any concerns?

[TonyB]

but as there is nothing at stake it doesnt matter ....

so you spend 700 dollars and travel to the south Island and get third in your class ,,,you get?? .. a good feeling and a hell of alot of enjoyment ..so ,,, just get out there and enjoy yourself ...

There's nothing at stake?? Maybe not in terms of prize money no. But it costs a lot of money to go racing, even in F3. Racing is NOT big here, there is almost NO sponsorship money available, so everyone that does it, does it at great personal expense. There is no prize money available, well SFA anyway, so the only thing we get out of it is the enjoyment of a good hard race. And for the skilled minority, a small silver cup if they are lucky. The trouble is, in F3 the sheer number of Motards and the different lines they take mean that many riders of traditional road bikes AREN'T getting the one thing that they stand to recieve from racing- an enjoyable experience.

[Sketchy_Racer]

So according to your theory RG100, no GP based bikes like your RS or TZ125 or a 250 GP bike should be allowed in a street race either, as they arent street bikes?
And don't the 600 boys complain about the 1000's holding them up in the corners then blasting off down the straights, not the 1000's complaining about the 600's!
Most of the European factories now build production Supermotard bikes, KTM, Aprilia, Husky, Husaberg etc, then you get the modified MX bikes like the RMZ450, YZF450, CRF450 etc, and also the two strokers but probably less of these now.
Still think its at few tracks and mainly the tighter street circuits that the Motards cause a problem. What was the turn out like at Greymouth? Was there big numbers there? Any concerns?

Well you're clever gav :p

By the definition 'street bike' I mean as in designed for use on tarmac.

And dont even start say "what about this motard its designed for tarmac" Bullshit

And Tough shit of the 600s complain about the 1000s, they are intruding on a class that they arent even supposed to be in.

Back to the Original point of this thread. It is simple, that motards are only allowed into the class that they have been givin, And Bears and Postclassics.(if elegible)

No Motards, in the formula classes.

Its quite easy to police when ya think about it. lets say Mr joe says his motard is a production road bike. thats sweet, he can go into F3. But now hes not allowed in to the motard class.

and if he enters the motard class, well tough shit, he's not coming into the formula classes

[spudchucka]

If you want to chase chooks get a dirt bike

If you want to race on sealed roads get a road bike

This form of racing is brilliant to watch, but they should be made to stick to there own class

Motards should have there own class! and should probally have there own meetings

Never used to bother Robert Holden when he was kicking arse around Wanganui on his Ducati and then cleaning up in the lower classes on his Husqvarna chook chaser. Only nobody called them Motards then, it was just a good rider doing well on whatever sort of bike he decided to ride.

I say let them race in whatever class they are competitive in.

Its consistent with the kiwi attitude and the "run what ya brung" racing of old.

[Bonez]

And dont even start say "what about this motard its designed for tarmac" Bullshit

May I suggest you go down to your local KTM dealer and see what type for tyres are fitted. They're propably more suitable to 99.9% of NZ roads than any other type of bike.

[dangerous]

I say let them race in whatever class they are competitive in.
Its a safty thing now due to numbers, one death could mean the end of it for every one.


Well you're clever gav :p
Yeah well thats Gav for ya :zzzz:


What was the turn out like at Greymouth? Was there big numbers there? Any concerns?
Yes a big turn out and yes it was getting messy.

Listen up, this thread is just going around in circles... we are getting nowhere.
So... TonyB's wee poll has done its job and come up with a result that 10 pages of posts cant.

to date 114 votes
27 for the tards to stay in F3 (only 6% are racers the rest like to see the possible carnage and havoc)
87 against, kick em out.

Thats 23.68%for
and 76.31% kick em out

Thats that sorted... :done:

[Sketchy_Racer]

May I suggest you go down to your local KTM dealer and see what type for tyres are fitted. They're propably more suitable to 99.9% of NZ roads than any other type of bike.

Im sure you understand what im really trying to say??

And your right. Motards are best suited to NZ roads. thats why im getting one.

BUT, we are talking about racing here. and they dont belong in the Formula classes.

I like dangerous' theory, 87% says Into thier own class, So Hi-ho-off-they-go

[Bonez]

Im sure you understand what im really trying to say??

And your right. Motards are best suited to NZ roads. thats why im getting one.

BUT, we are talking about racing here. and they dont belong in the Formula classes.
Do they not race on NZ roads?

[dangerous]

Do they not race on NZ roads?

Ohh come on man.. you are sounding like Gav, yeah on the roads 2 times a year maybe in the south Is... everty other weekend on the race track :yawn:

[Joni]

Umm Dangerous, maybe people still want to talk about it... let them be!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Do they not race on NZ roads?

Yeah they do, and they can stay in thier own class.

Its that Simple!! :yes:

[TonyB]

Umm Dangerous, maybe people still want to talk about it... let them be!
Getting grumy in his od age, isn't he?
Stood up my wife today too. How rude:angry:

[dangerous]

Umm Dangerous, maybe people still want to talk about it... let them be!

To what post are you refering??? Like I said above 10 pages on, and we have got know were.
Were have I told people to stop talking about it... hell Im still here and still wanking on like the rest of em???
Your last post was telling us to pull our heads in (not quite in those words tho) now you are saying go for it... make ya mind up, and whats your thoughts on Motards in F3???


Getting grumy in his old age, isn't he?
Stood up my wife today too. How rude:angry:

Am not :gob:

Ohh yeah, and it was my shout too... but I didnt stand her up I was just running late :mellow:

[SixPackBack]

Stick em' in a class of their own, throw in some dirt track, jumps, kerbs and tricky obstacles and watch the MX and track fans lap it up.

As a spectator I cringe seeing the chook chasers and sprotbikes together on a track.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yep, Your onto is SPB

The MX section needs to be organsied well, so that excess dirt is not pulled back onto the track.

[Joni]

Your last post was telling us to pull our heads in (not quite in those words tho) now you are saying go for it... make ya mind upDarryl I seriously think you need to pull you head in a little... this aint the Dangerous show.

I said tone it down when people were getting edgy... and the thread was doing down the wrong road.

Never have I told anyone not to discuss it, just do it without any abuse... thats all, my mind has been constant all along... people can do their thing as long as they keep it clean.

[NordieBoy]

The MX section needs to be organsied well, so that excess dirt is not pulled back onto the track.

Like the drifters do?

:D

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah. Drifters pulling dirt on is fine, so long they clean it up before they leave the track. Unfortunatly, they seem to do a halfarsed attempt at best.

But cause the motards are running on the same day, they dont have time to clean the track in-between races, so need to have a 'cleaning' area for thier tyres before returning to the main track.

[Shadows]

From a spectator's point of view, after watching them at Wanganui, I reckon that although they are pretty cool to watch in their own right, they should remain in their own class.
I got the impression in the other classes (admittedly they weren't in F1, and only a couple in F2 anyway) that they seemed to get in the way of the other bikes a bit, I think this would be more pronounced on a faster track.
It was weird watching the sportbike riders getting knees down but the motard riders backing into corners with their inside foot out. Kind of spoiled it IMO.

[dangerous]

Darryl I seriously think you need to pull you head in a little... this aint the Dangerous show.

I said tone it down when people were getting edgy... and the thread was doing down the wrong road.

Never have I told anyone not to discuss it, just do it without any abuse... thats all, my mind has been constant all along... people can do their thing as long as they keep it clean.

you really are funny at times... so whats your thoughts on motards then Joni? you dont ride, so you come in the spectator category... ???

[Joni]

My thoughts are not relevant... I was acting as a moderator, and I was concerned about the tone of the thread...

[gav]

Hey come on, Dangerous has raced a bucket for all of 18 months, and might have managed a dozen races on his Kat, (mainly club days, mind.) He's the authority around here on road racing,
no one else has an opinion worth hearing.....:innocent: :dodge: :lol: :done: :motu:
The bikes aren't at fault, its the way riders are using them, if they get too dangerous they should be warned in the pits or black flagged same as anyone else.
Consider this, take a Yamaha YZF450 mx bike, add 17" wheels, slicks, upgrade brakes and suspension, what have ya got? Its a motard...maybe.
Add clipons, and maybe a different frame (Tigcraft perhaps :yes: ), then its.......
a bonafide F3 bike, but what if the rider decided he wanted higher bars and started sticking his leg out? Then what?

[dangerous]

Hey come on, Dangerous has raced a bucket for all of 18 months, and might have managed a dozen races on his Kat, (mainly club days, mind.) He's the authority around here on road racing,
no one else has an opinion worth hearing.....:innocent: :dodge: :lol: :done: :motu:

now thats right... how come the rest dont understand that Gav???
Ohh and ummm... what have I said thats so bad anyway... just posted the poll results???

[Sketchy_Racer]

Hey come on, Dangerous has raced a bucket for all of 18 months, and might have managed a dozen races on his Kat, (mainly club days, mind.) He's the authority around here on road racing,
no one else has an opinion worth hearing.....:innocent: :dodge: :lol: :done: :motu:
The bikes aren't at fault, its the way riders are using them, if they get too dangerous they should be warned in the pits or black flagged same as anyone else.
Consider this, take a Yamaha YZF450 mx bike, add 17" wheels, slicks, upgrade brakes and suspension, what have ya got? Its a motard...maybe.
Add clipons, and maybe a different frame (Tigcraft perhaps :yes: ), then its.......
a bonafide F3 bike, but what if the rider decided he wanted higher bars and started sticking his leg out? Then what?

They Can do what the fuck they like, so lon as they are in thier own class, and not the formula classes.

[gav]

Give em time...they'll understand....
I dunno, thought an 11 page thread in the racing section is/was a top effort!
Good stuff TonyB! :Punk:

[gav]

They Can do what the fuck they like, so lon as they are in thier own class, and not the formula classes.
Doh!! You have heard of Jason Easton havent you? :shutup:

[NordieBoy]

They Can do what the fuck they like, so lon as they are in thier own class, and not the formula classes.

Here's an idea.
Let them do what they like as long as it's within the rules of the class.

[Hellraiser]

The MX section needs to be organsied well, so that excess dirt is not pulled back onto the track.

Firstly I'm not having ago at anything you posted RG100 in fact i agree with your comment BUT......

Lets say in a perfect world someone (with balls) from MCNZ has read this tread and decides its a good idea and all Motards are excluded from all classes execpt their own, all race meets find away of including a dirt section to keep the motard crew happy, now not all meets will be able to do the dirt section like Waganui so now we all start moaning about how much dirt the motards are putting on the track.

So what do we do now?

I know we start a thread moaning about how much dirt the motards put on the track.

So we go back to our perfect little world where the said MCNZ person with balls now decides that motards should be excluded from road racing events all together and should have race events of their own. now too me this seems like the best scenario because now everyone is happy.

So what do we do now?

I know we start a thread moaning about how few bikes we have in each class and how we can attract more people to race.

So the moral of my ranting?

It is human nature to moan about shit. Play the cards you have been dealt, learn how to beat them or if you really don't like racing with them then don't, just stay home on the couch.

[Bonez]

Here's an idea.
Let them do what they like as long as it's within the rules of the class.
Seems to be a concept some fail to comprehend. Bitching on an internet forum isn't going to change anything anyway.

Joni Dangerous is a ginger so don't be to hard on him. He use to ride a CX500 after all :dodge:

[TonyB]

Yet another way of looking at it. They don't put dirfters and NZV8's out on the track at the same time, hell I don't think they even use the same meetings. But they are both modified rearwheel drive road cars with around the same power output.

They used to put the old Group A cars out with Toyota Starlets (among others), it got a tad dangerous at times, and the faster guys got pissed off at the slower guys. Eventually they stopped doing it.

I can't help but wonder though, if the confused classes, and perhaps even the internal politics of road racing in NZ, is what turns sponsors and the viewing public off.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Fair comment Hellraiser, and you you are right.

We will never ever make everyone 'happy'.

So we try to do, is make the majority of the people happy, but unfortunatly, the minority, are then Not happy.

I can assure you, I am not happy, that from now on, im probably going to be racing my 125 agaist a whole heap of bikes, that i dont want to be there. But because the majority of people will complain if 125gp gets a class, it is better than the minority (us) just have to live with it.

Just the same way as this poll suggests, the majority will be happy if motards stay in thier own class, but at the expense that the minority (Motards) will be a little pissed off.

If Motards, have thier own class, they should be happy with that. Just the same way that i DONT have a class, but hey, i chose the bike i wanted, so I just have to be happy with the fact that i will be put into another class

-Glen

[Kyle]

At first glance id say "let them race in any class"
But then i remembered ducking under a motards handle bar, as it leaned over towards my head during an inside pass. Its not really the riders that cause the problem, not even the boot coming out. Its the geometry of the bikes, they are so different. They take different lines, and thats where the problem lies. Jealously says restrict them to their own class because the rest of us only get one class, but logic says let them race in any class which their bike can enter according to the rules. Perhaps they are onto something, maybe we should all be installing tall forks and wide handle bars on our roadbikes.
What if i desiged a race bike with dirtbike geometry, but not as an actul dirtbike, would that be a motard? i think i stick by my vote, let them in any class, too many rules bogs the world down.

[Brian d marge]

The trouble is, in F3 the sheer number of Motards and the different lines they take mean that many riders of traditional road bikes AREN'T getting the one thing that they stand to recieve from racing- an enjoyable experience.

Now theres the key, Hit the nail on the head ,,,

I didnt get where I was today without spotting a Nail being hit on the head, Neither the missus nor I got where we are today without spotting a nail being hit on the head !

I like swimming laps in the pool , but I aint enjoying it lately cause all these old ( really old ~ ) ladies after their water aerobics class decide to do laps ..not nice really not nice ..... Definatly NOT an enjoyable experience.

So why isnt the experience enjoyable , what is it about then that is really that bad ?

Is it because of the funny lines they take , which doesnt allow you to concentrate on your race craft?? ( transition points , braking points etc )

or are they really a danger ?? those back ends stepping out at strange moment takes the edge of the enjoyment ..

Those are VERY legitamate concerns,,,

( a case in point ,,at our local track there was a jump right out of a corner , a steep one too ! ... If you lost traction or didnt carry enough corner speed , crashed and burned ,,, the distance wasnt a prob , it was the height you dropped ( about 6 ft ) ,,,not a biggee , but enough to piss you off after coming up short once or twice a race ....a lot of people voted with their feet , the jump is still there , but modified .... everyone happy )

So yes the fun factor was lost , BUT the track owner is very interested in providing a enjoyable day out , so listened ,,

good luck in what ever happens

BTW I would be unhappy if I had a Motard and there was no dirt section ,,, or that I had to keep me feet up !!!

Stephen

[Hellraiser]

Yet another way of looking at it. They don't put dirfters and NZV8's out on the track at the same time, hell I don't think they even use the same meetings. But they are both modified rearwheel drive road cars with around the same power output.

They used to put the old Group A cars out with Toyota Starlets (among others), it got a tad dangerous at times, and the faster guys got pissed off at the slower guys. Eventually they stopped doing it.

I can't help but wonder though, if the confused classes, and perhaps even the internal politics of road racing in NZ, is what turns sponsors and the viewing public off.

That should be a completly differant thread ..............

"How can MCNZ better promote motorcycle sports in New Zealand"

Motorsport NZ managed to do it, Motorsport NZ also pay for TV time.

Road racing is not promoted very well in NZ.

MX is doing good see quite alot of it on TV (NZ Series).

I'm sure BOTS will get it's usual 5 seconds on TV. BOTS didn't even get on the news but yet the GNCC did!

You go to the MCNZ web site and you find more info about MX than any other discipline.

So to be quite honest i think there are way more important things that need sorting than weather or not motards can race with road bikes.

[gav]

I can't help but wonder though, if the confused classes, and perhaps even the internal politics of road racing in NZ, is what turns sponsors and the viewing public off.
I think thats part of the problem right there, the Street races tend to have too many classes, and try and keep everyone happy and usually failing.

Look at this line up:
Battle of the Streets - Paeroa

Post Classic
Junior Classic
Formula 2
Sidecars
Bears
Formula 3
Post classic Sidecars
Formula 1
Forgotten
Senior Classics
Supermoto
Robert Holden

12 classes! And they've left out buckets :gob: Surely they didnt all get there own races?

[Hellraiser]

Here's a question ............

Why doesn't MCNZ and Motorsport NZ team up and have a couple of F1 or F2 races at the same meets as the V8 tourers?

I'm sure they could slot in a couple of bike races

[gav]

Its been done before. Tends to devalue the rest of the classes, why go and watch bike racing when you can see the cream of the crop at the car races?

[Hellraiser]

Its been done before. Tends to devalue the rest of the classes, why go and watch bike racing when you can see the cream of the crop at the car races?


WTF?

thats kind of a no brainer ......... (ignore the classes I put in they were the first that came to mind)

1. Car racing has more spectators

2. Most Motorsport NZ events get lots of TV time

3. Sponsors like point 1 & 2 when being asked to part with $$$

[Kickaha]

I think thats part of the problem right there, the Street races tend to have too many classes, and try and keep everyone happy and usually failing.

Look at this line up:
Battle of the Streets - Paeroa

Post Classic
Junior Classic
Formula 2
Sidecars
Bears
Formula 3
Post classic Sidecars
Formula 1
Forgotten
Senior Classics
Supermoto
Robert Holden

12 classes! And they've left out buckets :gob: Surely they didnt all get there own races?



Post classic and post classic Junior will run together

there is no post classic sidecar class

going by the entry form there will be 10 classes 2 of which will run together

and from the entry form


10) in all classes the riding style shall be in keeping with the class you have entered

wonder who thats aimed at :lol:

[gav]

In theory it sounds great doesnt it? In Aus they did the same with the Superbikes, ran a seperate class racing on the V8 programme. End result though wasnt the big influx of crowds to see the bikes when they ran on there own. The teams also had extra expense to race at extra races, so decided, hey, lets stay with the cars for the extra exposure etc, and do less of the bike only meets! After all they didnt gain extra funding to do extra racing. So if the premier class didnt run with the rest of the bike classes, the main sponsers of the race meetings wanted to know WTF is going on? The support classes werent a big enough attraction on there own, so crowds were smaller. Afterall if the big boys arent racing why bother?

[Jantar]

How about this for a new idea.

Completely new classes:

Up to 125cc

Up to 250 cc production:

Up to 250 cc Modified or GP:

Up to 600 cc production:

Up to 600 cc Modified or GP:

Over 600 cc production:

Over 600 cc Modified or GP:

Classic, (over 25 years old) any size:

Side Cars, any size:

Only 9 classes, no seperate formula classes, and if a motard isn't exactly the way it came from the factory then it runs with the GP bikes of the same size.

[Steve_R6R]

I haven't been racing long, and I'm not too quick, but when I was even slower and trying to get around the track with some sort of consistancy those motard boys would just make me nervous and slower. They are a great road racing entry bike and I got my first taste of road racing on a motard (one race only). The thing is, when you are learning, and some motard rider on his 5th race for the day screws your only race, it just does not seem fair.
I don't think motards are any cheaper to race, they are handgrenades waiting to go pop and on the longer tracks it's along time between corners. They are also alot easier to ride/race than road type race bikes, which is why they are so popular. BTW I had the same problems with 125gp bike at the PMCC meetings at Taupo (different lines etc). Now I am a (little) bit quicker, any motard riders that I do come up against are much better riders than the ones that I had to deal with back in the pack and don't seem to be as much of a worry.

[Ivan]

How about this for a new idea.

Completely new classes:

Up to 125cc

Up to 250 cc production:

Up to 250 cc Modified or GP:

Up to 600 cc production:

Up to 600 cc Modified or GP:

Over 600 cc production:

Over 600 cc Modified or GP:

Classic, (over 25 years old) any size:

Side Cars, any size:

Only 9 classes, no seperate formula classes, and if a motard isn't exactly the way it came from the factory then it runs with the GP bikes of the same size.

Up to 125cc would be abadidea youd have 125gp bikes 125 buckets couple of 50cc buckets etc then its the exact same line we are pointing to with the motard situation a bucket goes slow around a corner different lines a 125gp bike goes fast round a corner as there speed comes from corner speed and youll end up with lots of 125 guys getting PISSED off and crashing just as dangerous,

I say run the classes they have now, Maybe have a S1 and S2 class for the 125/250F class and the 250/450F now that would be ok but why not just do that in one race? 2 sperate races in the one class.

formula 3 should remain as is bar the exclusion of motards nothing against any motarders just the lines and the whole sideways action into a turn.

600 Supersport see,s to be doing well as is

and Also sidechairs and F1 and all the other classes.

Wanganui would be a awsome bucket circuit maybe usbucket riders should start a petition aye:gob:

[Kickaha]

a bucket goes slow around a corner different lines a 125gp bike goes fast round a corner as there speed comes from corner speed and youll end up with lots of 125 guys getting PISSED off and crashing just as dangerous,

pffffffft you must race slow buckets if you think they are slow around corners,corner speed is everything in the bucket racing we do, when we race against other bikes and follow them through the corners it's the buckets that get held up



Wanganui would be a awsome bucket circuit maybe us bucket riders should start a petition aye:gob:

it'd be a crap bucket circuit, whoever had the most HP would win, handling would hardly come into it

[Ixion]

The thing that puzzles me, is how come these bikes, which are essentially rekitted MX machines, are so competitive.

I would have thought that a bike racing "out of its element" as it were, against proper road racers would be so uncompetitive as to be absurd.

After all, if you put a 21inch wheel and knobbly tyres on a road racer and entered it into MX races I do not think the results would be very good.

why then is the reverse not equally ludicrous?

Surely a dedicated road racing motorcycle, with all its fairings, clipons etc should easily be able to outrun an offroader of a race track?

[Sketchy_Racer]

pffffffft you must race slow buckets if you think they are slow around corners,corner speed is everything in the bucket racing we do, when we race against other bikes and follow them through the corners it's the buckets that get held up


I would like to see a well ridden bucket, go around a corner as fast or faster than a well ridden 125.

Not only corner speed, but all so straight line speed. There could quite easily be a 90KPH speed difference inbetween a 125 and a bucket.

Fuck that

I like Ivans idea of the motards having thier own split class. that would be good, and it would also give the guys on the 250 motards a chance to win in thier own class

[Sketchy_Racer]

The thing that puzzles me, is how come these bikes, which are essentially rekitted MX machines, are so competitive.

I would have thought that a bike racing "out of its element" as it were, against proper road racers would be so uncompetitive as to be absurd.

After all, if you put a 21inch wheel and knobbly tyres on a road racer and entered it into MX races I do not think the results would be very good.

why then is the reverse not equally ludicrous?

Surely a dedicated road racing motorcycle, with all its fairings, clipons etc should easily be able to outrun an offroader of a race track?

A road race bike that weighs 100kg, and makes 80Hp will easily run rings around one.

But most road race bikes (bar 125s) weight heaps, and make very little power to weight ratio.

And if i put long forks and a extended swingarm on my RS, with some Dirt tyres, and a really low ratio gear box.. It would probably do pretty weill against the other 125 MX bikes.

For lap times, An RS125 ridden well, will/should smoke any motards on the tarmac

[Ivan]

I would like to see a well ridden bucket, go around a corner as fast or faster than a well ridden 125.

Not only corner speed, but all so straight line speed. There could quite easily be a 90KPH speed difference inbetween a 125 and a bucket.

Fuck that

I like Ivans idea of the motards having thier own split class. that would be good, and it would also give the guys on the 250 motards a chance to win in thier own class

Yes exactly as there are a few ring ding ding 2 smokers out there at the mo which are not competive over a well ridden crf450

And exactly you wont see a bucket bike corner as fast as a well ridden 125GP bike, thats why 125's areso fast they go relatively fast in a straight line but corner so fast,

F5Daves is the only exception I reckon, I saw him line up a few moves on a we little RS125 yellow in the weekend until the 125 hit the straights and slowly got into it

:rockon:

[dangerous]

a bucket goes slow around a corner

Wanganui would be a awsome bucket circuit maybe usbucket riders should start a petition aye:gob:

Im starting to wounder if you have ever riden a bucket let alone own any? Like Kickaha says, fast cornering is a buckets bigest advantage.

Wanganui... a good bucket track, na mate ya need hp to go up and down.


pffffffft you must race slow buckets if you think they are slow around corners,corner speed is everything in the bucket racing we do, when we race against other bikes and follow them through the corners it's the buckets that get held up


I would like to see a well ridden bucket, go around a corner as fast or faster than a well ridden 125.

Not only corner speed, but all so straight line speed. There could quite easily be a 90KPH speed difference inbetween a 125 and a bucket.


Ya big naa na... were did Kick say a bucket would be faster than a 125gp, a 125gp and a sorted bucket have similer cornering abilitys... and a genius knows a 40-50hp 125 will clean a 10hp bucket up... shessss

[dangerous]

And exactly you wont see a bucket bike corner as fast as a well ridden 125GP bike, thats why 125's areso fast they go relatively fast in a straight line but corner so fast,

F5Daves is the only exception I reckon, I saw him line up a few moves on a we little RS125 yellow in the weekend until the 125 hit the straights and slowly got into it

:rockon:

you wont see a 125 corner as quick because it dosnt enter the corner as fast :mellow:

Just F5 huh... you need to get out more wally

[Sketchy_Racer]

Ya big naa na... were did Kick say a bucket would be faster than a 125gp, a 125gp and a sorted bucket have similer cornering abilitys... and a genius knows a 40-50hp 125 will clean a 10hp bucket up... shessss

I may have mis-read Kicks post, but it sounded to me that he thought that buckets have the same or more corner speed than a 125.

And, yeah a bucket in a GP chassis wil have the same cornering ability as a 125GP bike, but i would hate to be racing hard core against other 125 GP bikes, to come across a 1900 XL125 with banged out shocks, and knooblys worn down to slicks, In the middle of a corner. Ohh, that would be fun.

And, no shit a 125 is faster down the straight. Its that speed difference that could cause an issue. Like, 200kph vs 100kph. Dodgy!!

Thank fuck that'll never happen.

(except when people like me jump in the wrong class for testing:dodge: )

[Sketchy_Racer]

F5Daves is the only exception I reckon, I saw him line up a few moves on a we little RS125 yellow in the weekend until the 125 hit the straights and slowly got into it

:rockon:

Yeah that little prick was in the wrong class!!

But, i herd rumours that his battery had gone flat, and was firing erratically, mid way through corners. I dunno, though. Just a rumour :innocent:

[onearmedbandit]

, but i would hate to be racing hard core against other 125 GP bikes, to come across a 1900 XL125 with banged out shocks, and knooblys worn down to slicks, In the middle of a corner. Ohh, that would be fun.

And, no shit a 125 is faster down the straight. Its that speed difference that could cause an issue. Like, 200kph vs 100kph. Dodgy!!

Thank fuck that'll never happen.

(except when people like me jump in the wrong class for testing:dodge: )

Hows this for a clapped out bucket then?

[Sketchy_Racer]

haha. Yeah thats a real 'looker' !!

To bad its not a 'goer'

Last time i herd, he had to take a piston with him on the way to the dairy to pick up milk :bleh:

[vmx1200nz]

the sidecar races were gutted, they reckon that the whanganui club is heavly biased to dirt and super motard. they had guys up from the south island and they couldnt race. and (whanganui) did a dirt track that wasnt approved.
anyway,,,,it still was good to watch:gob:

[Ivan]

Hows this for a clapped out bucket then?

Looks like myneexcept nicer

[Jantar]

Up to 125cc would be abadidea youd have 125gp bikes 125 buckets couple of 50cc buckets etc then its the exact same line we are pointing to with the motard situation a bucket goes slow around a corner different lines a 125gp bike goes fast round a corner as there speed comes from corner speed and youll end up with lots of 125 guys getting PISSED off and crashing just as dangerous,
So if I understand you correctly you are saying a well ridden 10 -15 HP bucket will out accellerate a 45+ HP GP bike off the start and out of the corners? If this is not the case then how would the bucket be in front of a GP bike in the corners?

I will not agree with the comparison of cornering speeds. From my understanding cornering speed has more to do with tyre selection, ground clearance, center of gravity etc than straight out HP. Its a few years since I did any race bike development, but I do believe I'd have no trouble setting up a bucket that would out corner a GP bike. Just dont expect it to have anywhere near the accelleration or top speed.

Surely if a rider can set up his motard to compete adequately with GP bikes of the SAME capacity then he should be permitted to race against them.

[Sketchy_Racer]

No, you dont understand Ivan (dont worry, not many do) He is saying that buckets are slow mid corner. But RS chassied buckets, are just as fast through the corners
Hahahaha. You go ahead and try get a bike to out corner a 125GP bike. As far as i know, in the right hands, they are the fastest cornering bikes you can get. I dont think MR Honda would spend millions developing a bike, if someone from some dopey hick country, could do better in his backyard. No

And, the Classes are good as they are now, they DO NOT need to be changed.


What needs to be changed is that the motards cant come into the Formula classes. Simple.

[onearmedbandit]

Dopey hick country? In his backyard? Against the might of a factory race bike? No you are right, no one could do that.....

[roogazza]

the sidecar races were gutted, they reckon that the whanganui club is heavly biased to dirt and super motard. they had guys up from the south island and they couldnt race. and (whanganui) did a dirt track that wasnt approved.
anyway,,,,it still was good to watch:gob:

Wanganui , W A N G A N U I !!!! A city south of the Bombays, where they have held motor cycle racing for 50 years ! G.

ps they're biased all right ! bring back Barbara Lett !!!!!!!! :shutup:

[dangerous]

Last time i herd, he had to take a piston with him on the way to the dairy to pick up milk :bleh:

Well... ya se thats what ya get when you try and take on the mighty dangerous... that will learn ya SteveK.

either that or a tad to lean and that spany sucked the piston clean out.

[Rashika]

Dopey hick country? In his backyard? Against the might of a factory race bike? No you are right, no one could do that.....

nope no-one at all ;)
especially not a kiwi from chch with a blue and pink bike :scooter:

[Brian d marge]

The factories just have more resourses to screw things up... they have a guess , test it then if its profit conducive ..they do it

doesnt make em the bees Knees , I know better engineers doing their first year at Uni in chch , than work in the factory

And a piece of crap loving thrown together by its owner will ALWAYS　have a slower corner speed than a bike that some thought has been given to ( rs125 or otherwise )

ie I could build a bucket that would put me mid field in the moto gp field .. ( i would team up with a good machinist, copy what has been done , throw a truck load of money at it ,and go racing ... ( exactly what the BSL did if I remember, then they found out it WAS REALLY EXPENSIVE ....)

trouble is the factories have a few more truck loads of money than I do ..

A well put together bucket should be only slightly slower , due to the parts it has to use , ie production based ( heavier , greater tolerances used on in the parts making )

Oh and the rider ,,,, gut bucket gertie is definately a few hp/kg down !!!

Stephen

[Crasherfromwayback]

If you want to chase chooks get a dirt bike

If you want to race on sealed roads get a road bike

This form of racing is brilliant to watch, but they should be made to stick to there own class

Motards should have there own class! and should probally have there own meetings

I can agree that now they're so popular as far as competitor numbers go they should have and stick to their own class (and I race one!), but not with the rest of your comments.

Years ago I used to race KX500's in F2 before motard was even born, and won a shitload of races against some pretty good riders. But as the 600 proddie based bikes got so much better, it made a 500 two stroke moto-x bike nowhere near competitive enough.

But when I race moto-x, if you wanna come and take me on- on your GSXR1000, I say bring it on mofo! Just because my RMZ450's origins were the dirt, doesn't mean that if there was a particular street race track where they'd be competitive now I shouldn't be able to take on anyone with ANY bike!

I do agree that there are too many guys (and Gals maybe) taking fucked up racing lines on their motards, that can and do cause problems for the road race bikes....but they simply need some 'education'. Fuck, my accident at Wanganui '05' was caused by some 'Peanut' doing just that.

Years ago now I raced at the one and only (I think?) Auckland street race round the warves area (so long ago now I can't even remember exactly where it was, but I've still got pictures!), and I faced so much fucking PETTY SHIT from the ROADRACE franternity doing everything they could to stop me riding, it was a fucking JOKE. There was around 80 bikes entered in F2, and they split it into two groups (A....fast) (B....not so fast). Well after trying to fail my near new KX500 for every GAY FUCKING EXCUSE I've ever heard in scruitineering (none of them valid), they were finally GOOD ENOUGH (despite the fact that like everyone else there I'd paid my very expensive entry fees well in advance and driven all the way from Wellington OVERNIGHT TO GET THERE) to let me 'RACE' in the 'B' group. This DESPITE THE FACT THAT I WAS 8TH QUICKEST OUT OF THE 80 BIKES IN PRACTICE. Only after me getting someone within the then ACU with half a brain to intervein, did I convince them of the error of their ways and let me race with the 'A's! So they started me off grid spot 39. How fucking safe was that?? Because what? I DARED show up to this huge street meet where they were holding the AUSTRALIA VS NZ F2 CHALLANGE?? Where the two teams had their best SIX RIDERS on late model TZ YAMAHAS doing battle...and the late ROBERT HOLDEN on his well potent oversized Ducati? So from 39th on the grid I managed after having to barge my way (wouldn't have had to have been so agressive if they were sensible and put me in my rightful grid spot) through far too many slow ROADRACERS to get my way to 6th at the finish of race one. It was FUCKING DANGEROUS to start someone going up to several seconds a lap quicker than most of them having to come through from the back.

So obviously quite pleased with my effort, I looked forward to race two.....especially as I must surely have earnt my 6th spot on the grid!!??

Well.....no actually....I was told in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that if I continued to pull wheelstands the lenght of the front straight on my BUILT FOR WHEELSTANDS KX500 that I'd be BLACKFLAGGED for DANGEROUS RIDING.
This, from the STUPID ARSEHOLES that thought it CLEVER and SAFE to start me ONCE AGAIN FROM 39TH ON THE GRID FOR RACE TWO. Now anyone that was actually there way back then, will no Doubt remember ROBERT HOLDEN doing WHEELSTANDS the length of the front straight on that hugely impressive Pantah based Ducati.....no blag flag threat to him right? And please don't think I'm trying to compare myself to Robert, as on a street circuit, I'd never be cheeky enough, and not many ever did compare......but
EXCUSE ME?

So GUESS WHAT HAPPENED IN RACE TWO?

Yeah funny that......I once again had to barge and carve my way from 39th to 6th again in about TEN MEASLY FUCKING LAPS!

So my chances of having a crack at the top three guys were shot.....my prize money severly DEPLETED.....because WHY? I showed up on a KX 500 and DARED WASTE a lot of the then 'NAMES' of NZ and Aust ROADRACING on late model PURPOSE BUILT ROADRACE BIKES?

I could be wrong....But I'm pretty sure it was 'THE AUCKLAND MOTORCYCLE CLUB' hosting and 'controlling' the EVENT.....WELL IT NEARLY PUT ME OFF ROADRACING for GOOD!

As far as I'm concerned, the STUPID-RUDE-FUCKING DANGEROUS FUCKHEADS that ran the event should've refunded my entry fees. AND licked my SWEATY BALLS.

They weren't and never will be 'MOTORCYCLISTS'.

Rant (yeah I know) finally over.:sick:

[DEATH_INC.]

Yet another way of looking at it. They don't put dirfters and NZV8's out on the track at the same time, hell I don't think they even use the same meetings. But they are both modified rearwheel drive road cars with around the same power output.
Simple, drifters don't race, they are more like 'how close can you follow without passing'.

[DEATH_INC.]

Years ago I used to race KX500's in F2 before motard was even born, and won a shitload of races against some pretty good riders. But as the 600 proddie based bikes got so much better, it made a 500 two stroke moto-x bike nowhere near competitive enough.
I usta watch those races on the telly! You usta go well orright.
I think you guys need to be careful not to alienate the 'tards from roadraces, just remember their entry fees etc help pay the bills too.....racing in NZ isn't big enough to sustain segregation like overseas.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I usta watch those races on the telly! You usta go well orright.
I think you guys need to be careful not to alienate the 'tards from roadraces, just remember their entry fees etc help pay the bills too.....racing in NZ isn't big enough to sustain segregation like overseas.

Mate....that's the last thing I'd want....and exactly what I was ranting about in my post...it WAS and normally IS the roadrace guys that want the dirtbikes OUT.

I've done KX500's in F2, KR1SP's in 250 Proddie, HD's in Twinsport, and now back to my 'Roots' on my RMZ450.....we're all just guys and gals racing and having fun....no need for the road race guys to want to get rid of us and vice versa. But like I said....just cause our bikes (motards) were born in the dirt, shouldn't mean we can't come and play with the 'Tar Babies'!:scooter:

[DEATH_INC.]

Sorry mate, the comments weren't aimed at you......

[scott411]

Mate....that's the last thing I'd want....and exactly what I was ranting about in my post...it WAS and normally IS the roadrace guys that want the dirtbikes OUT.

I've done KX500's in F2, KR1SP's in 250 Proddie, HD's in Twinsport, and now back to my 'Roots' on my RMZ450.....we're all just guys and gals racing and having fun....no need for the road race guys to want to get rid of us and vice versa. But like I said....just cause our bikes (motards) were born in the dirt, shouldn't mean we can't come and play with the 'Tar Babies'!:scooter:

crasher, i was at the race on the warfes, must have been about 1988 ort 1989 and i remember a KX500 carving up street bikes, that was a long time ago,

here lies the problem, motards have no problems with big fast road bikes ripping past them on the back stragiht when they out of hp and gears, we fight back to pass in the tight sections as this is where we have a bit of an advantage and we get told that we are dangerous,

Motards are proping up road racing in the country at the moment, with out the 30-40 entries they birng in (not counting the 2nd set of entry's when we are allowed)

I was planning on doing the NElson Street race next year, but if it comes to bear that i will only get 2 races in a day i will not drive that far, simple,

i am not saying i should get to enter 5 classes, but 2 would be nice, if i am not allowed to put my leg out in f3 then thats ok as well.

[dangerous]

I think you guys need to be careful not to alienate the 'tards from roadraces, just remember their entry fees etc help pay the bills too.....racing in NZ isn't big enough to sustain segregation like overseas.

I dont think anyone at all want the tards alienated, we all seem to love watching that class of bike... but most would like to now see them in their own class... at every meet.

[Sketchy_Racer]

i am not saying i should get to enter 5 classes, but 2 would be nice, if i am not allowed to put my leg out in f3 then thats ok as well.


Im sorry, but i disagree.

The Fomula classes are and should be for dedicated road race machines!

Motards ARE NOT dedicated road race machines ( and dont even go on about these new fucken aprillias etc)

If you wanna race in the formula classes, GO GET A FORMULA BIKE. Just the same as if i wanted to race in the motard class, I would go get a motard bike, Right?

you say motards bring extra money by cross entries, well, if 10 motards enter thier own class at lets say $100 (ease of math) and a extra $10 to enter a second class

So, all 10 guys to enter F3 have made the equvilant of 1 entry into a formula class.

Now, lets say three riders wont come to an event, because they dont want to race against motards, well theres $300 gone.

As i said earlier, the rules need to say for the formula classes (excluding any bikes derived from the dirt)

And then, if the check-book racers on the new 20K aprillias want to come in, well i guess they fit through the rule. Which is Ok. People dont mind 3 or 4 of them.

But, if the enter the Formula classes, they cant enter the motard class, same as if they enter the motard class, they cant join the formula class.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Dopey hick country? In his backyard? Against the might of a factory race bike? No you are right, no one could do that.....

I would be hard pushed to believe that the Britten out handled a superbike of the same Era.

Just watching a short video of it coming around a bend, with the front chattering the whole way is enough to lead me to believe that it wasnt so great in the handlng department.

But, i could be wrong. Maybe i should ask Andrew Stroud next time i see him at the track..??

[gav]

Im sorry, but i disagree.

The Fomula classes are and should be for dedicated road race machines!

Motards ARE NOT dedicated road race machines ( and dont even go on about these new fucken aprillias etc)

If you wanna race in the formula classes, GO GET A FORMULA BIKE. Just the same as if i wanted to race in the motard class, I would go get a motard bike, Right?

you say motards bring extra money by cross entries, well, if 10 motards enter thier own class at lets say $100 (ease of math) and a extra $10 to enter a second class

So, all 10 guys to enter F3 have made the equvilant of 1 entry into a formula class.

Now, lets say three riders wont come to an event, because they dont want to race against motards, well theres $300 gone.

As i said earlier, the rules need to say for the formula classes (excluding any bikes derived from the dirt)

And then, if the check-book racers on the new 20K aprillias want to come in, well i guess they fit through the rule. Which is Ok. People dont mind 3 or 4 of them.

But, if the enter the Formula classes, they cant enter the motard class, same as if they enter the motard class, they cant join the formula class.

So is Jason Eastons YZF450 Tigcraft out of F3 then? And why is a SV650 considered a dedicated road race machine then, it requires a hell of a lot more work done to prepare it to road race spec than a production built motard? So if you want to buy a brand new bike to race in F3 then you're limited to a SV650?

[Crasherfromwayback]

crasher, i was at the race on the warfes, must have been about 1988 ort 1989 and i remember a KX500 carving up street bikes, that was a long time ago,

here lies the problem, motards have no problems with big fast road bikes ripping past them on the back stragiht when they out of hp and gears, we fight back to pass in the tight sections as this is where we have a bit of an advantage and we get told that we are dangerous,

Motards are proping up road racing in the country at the moment, with out the 30-40 entries they birng in (not counting the 2nd set of entry's when we are allowed)

I was planning on doing the NElson Street race next year, but if it comes to bear that i will only get 2 races in a day i will not drive that far, simple,

i am not saying i should get to enter 5 classes, but 2 would be nice, if i am not allowed to put my leg out in f3 then thats ok as well.


lol....that'd be me mate.....after the hassles I was given, I was in no real mood to be nice on the track.

I dunno though man....there's enough of us now to do our thing in our own class.....I've never raced in joint classes, I feel we should leave the F3 guys and girls to it. Gets too confusing for the spectators as well if we're (motards) popping up in every class too.

Mind you....might simply be that I'm that old and unfit now that two races is more than enough for me....

But the way some of the 'motard' guys ride now is FUCKING SHITE. For example...Wanganui is faster and more flowing than a lot of people think....I was blown away by how many times I was nearly cut in two by some absolute retard homo doing his (her?) best impression of 'Motard Racer Extraordinaire'.....trying to square off fast corners with a foot out, wheel locked....in the fucking WAY! When I went down on the bridge there in '05', I put the thing down to avoid some goober that decided it was a good idea to perform a 'blockpass' on me at 100 odd km's per fucking hour!
Yeah I'd gone up the inside a little too hot, but yeah it was clean and all I needed to do was run out to the edge of the track to complete the pass.
If I'd not done what I did, and 'T' boned that fuckhead instead, it could've seriously hurt us both (instead of just myself!). So if whoever did that is reading this.....and I know you know you did it as you came over to apologise after the race while I was on my way to hospital......(and I appreciate the gesture and know racing can be tough) there's no need or place for block passes on a road race track on 100k corners!
Slow corners yeah....moto-x tracks fucking yeah!....but no wonder some of the racers on proper race bikes freak and don't want us riding with them!:scooter:

[onearmedbandit]

I would be hard pushed to believe that the Britten out handled a superbike of the same Era.

Just watching a short video of it coming around a bend, with the front chattering the whole way is enough to lead me to believe that it wasnt so great in the handlng department.

But, i could be wrong. Maybe i should ask Andrew Stroud next time i see him at the track..??


Maybe you should, however handling problems were one of the characteristics they had difficulty with. My main point is that you shouldn't write off this dopey hick country so quickly.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Maybe you should, however handling problems were one of the characteristics they had difficulty with. My main point is that you shouldn't write off this dopey hick country so quickly.

I'm with you mate! Kiwi's have long had the top Japanese race engineers scratching their heads....engine wise too.....Anyone here ever hear of Dicky Lawton?....with a T500 hand ported by himself faster at Daytona than the factory Suzukis....chassis and engine performance is not always black and white.....cunning and the balls/experience/patience to experiment and look outside the square.:Punk:

[spudchucka]

Its a safty thing now due to numbers, one death could mean the end of it for every one.


Just restrict the numbers, make it the top ten qualifiers only get to race in other classes. I think it adds a lot of value to the racing.

[Ivan]

I would be hard pushed to believe that the Britten out handled a superbike of the same Era.

Just watching a short video of it coming around a bend, with the front chattering the whole way is enough to lead me to believe that it wasnt so great in the handlng department.

But, i could be wrong. Maybe i should ask Andrew Stroud next time i see him at the track..??

Ummmmmmm
Maybe you could ask Shaun he raced it at the isle of mann
And Andrew Stroud well look at it at Daytona first time it wheel stands past Doug Chandler on the Factory Ducati and only DNFD because a wire broke.
Maybe the front chattering is poor suspension setup when it was in the prototype stage of development.

Also Yes what about Jason Eastons Tig Craft its a YZF450 in a 125 GP bike chassis its a GP bike not a Formula Bike kinda like us on our 125s we take differnt lines, and were Grand Prix bikes does that mean we cant cross enter into a formula class I feel a few motarders might want to say something about this not us as we are going to always say lets do it for our own class

And also what about motard Superduke thing its cross between a motard and a super duke ive seen them motarding alot its more a road bike is that aloud to cross enter?

[scott411]

But the way some of the 'motard' guys ride now is FUCKING SHITE. For example...Wanganui is faster and more flowing than a lot of people think....I was blown away by how many times I was nearly cut in two by some absolute retard homo doing his (her?) best impression of 'Motard Racer Extraordinaire'.....trying to square off fast corners with a foot out, wheel locked....in the fucking WAY:

i was suprised how much corner speed i had to carry at wanganui and how fast it actually was, i was expecting it to be more point and shoot

RIders cause problems not bikes,

when they reg flagged race 1 when Squid went down in turn one he did that tiring to pass me and another rider, he went in way to late and paid the price, he has raced GSXR1000's as well so its not just a motard thing,

i agree with you about the size of our class, we need to have more dedicated motard meetings with a dirt section, with quads involved as well and even pit bikes to pad the numbers out, but at the moment it is a 50/50 calll to run a motard meeting with the numbers that turn up and the track and set up costs.

[sAsLEX]

Maybe the front chattering is poor suspension setup when it was in the prototype stage of development.


It had a front linkage type suspension didn't it? Not forks.....and they are incredibly hard to tune from what I have read but are a better option than forks when set up correctly

[Ivan]

most likely it did and would havebeen hard to set up but those guys were pretty onto it

[Rashika]

Motards are proping up road racing in the country at the moment, with out the 30-40 entries they birng in (not counting the 2nd set of entry's when we are allowed)

I was planning on doing the NElson Street race next year, but if it comes to bear that i will only get 2 races in a day i will not drive that far, simple,

i am not saying i should get to enter 5 classes, but 2 would be nice, if i am not allowed to put my leg out in f3 then thats ok as well.

maybe there are a lot up north, but the numbers are still copeable down here... tho the sooner they (the motards) have their own dedicated class, the better for everyone I think. I'm kinda glad I mostly do BEARS meets, with only occasional Canterbury meets.

And you needn't worry about how many races you would have got at Nelson... 5 times as many as me on the bucket, sound fair does it?

Nelson st race 2007
Motards =5 races
F1,2,3, = 3 races
Post classic = 2 races (uncluding the combined one)
Buckets =1 race...
unless you call that fkd up all in bollocks of post, classic and buckets altogether a race
Total of 3 races for the day, and I had 2 bikes entered in 2 DIFFERENT classes

Sorry, shouldn't bitch about it anymore... ;)
back on topic.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Sorry, shouldn't bitch about it anymore... ;)
back on topic.

Eh? Fucking hell mate...this is THE best place to bitch and moan!:Punk:

[Rashika]

Eh? Fucking hell mate...this is THE best place to bitch and moan!:Punk:

yeah true... and i would still be bitching in your case too, that was a shit of a thing to pull on you in that auckland race, but whaddaya expect, they are Aucklanders afterall :dodge:


hiding now

[Crasherfromwayback]

yeah true... and i would still be bitching in your case too, that was a shit of a thing to pull on you in that auckland race, but whaddaya expect, they are Aucklanders afterall :dodge:


hiding now

No need to hide mate!
Auckland was the ONLY place I ever encountered that sort of 'mentality'....
Masterton...Sweet Gisborne....Sweet Wanganui....Sweet.

Auckland? Sorry MATE.....Not COOL ENOUGH FOR OUR STREET RACE!:sick:

[gav]

Ummmmmmm
Maybe you could ask Shaun he raced it at the isle of mann
And Andrew Stroud well look at it at Daytona first time it wheel stands past Doug Chandler on the Factory Ducati and only DNFD because a wire broke.
Maybe the front chattering is poor suspension setup when it was in the prototype stage of development.

Also Yes what about Jason Eastons Tig Craft its a YZF450 in a 125 GP bike chassis its a GP bike not a Formula Bike kinda like us on our 125s we take differnt lines, and were Grand Prix bikes does that mean we cant cross enter into a formula class I feel a few motarders might want to say something about this not us as we are going to always say lets do it for our own class

And also what about motard Superduke thing its cross between a motard and a super duke ive seen them motarding alot its more a road bike is that aloud to cross enter?
You might want to replay your video, thats wasnt Doug Chandler, and it wasnt a FACTORY Ducati. The factory race bikes run in the Superbike class, privateer teams run in the Pro Twins event as did the Britten.
The Tigcraft isnt a 125 GP bike chassis, havent you been shown the difference before? :yes:

[Ivan]

You might want to replay your video, thats wasnt Doug Chandler, and it wasnt a FACTORY Ducati. The factory race bikes run in the Superbike class, privateer teams run in the Pro Twins event as did the Britten.
The Tigcraft isnt a 125 GP bike chassis, havent you been shown the difference before? :yes:

Ok well he it was a good bike and he did wheelstand by.

Yes I know the Tig Craft runs its own frame but everything else is RS125 I know the bike well,


I was just trying to state a point and thats its a motox engine in a custom frame does that mean its not eligable for F3

[Toast]

Just restrict the numbers, make it the top ten qualifiers only get to race in other classes. I think it adds a lot of value to the racing.

I reckon that this is a choice idea. Since there is little or no prizemoney at the meets, this would make where you place more valuable, give some reward for going hard.

[ManDownUnder]

Without reading anything that's gone before in this thread - I personally think motards should be in their own race class, and possibly in a class where all participants acknowledge and accept the different styles of riding will be present on the track.

To forceably include them into a race so it materially affects the style of riding for the road bikes (or the motards) is craziness. It's great to watch but I'll happily forgo that spectacle for a faster, smoother and cleaner F2 race.

Keep the competition "pure"

[idleidolidyll]

Oh goody, lets ban taking different lines and riding different styles now huh?
While we're at it, lets punish those smart folk who choose the best bike to win a class.

Someone better tell Rossi if he ever rides here that he has to take 125 lines and never back his GP bike into a corner or spin/slide it out or we'll invent a whoile new class just for Valentino Rossi.

This is a dumb thread

[dangerous]

Oh goody, lets ban taking different lines and riding different styles now huh?
While we're at it, lets punish those smart folk who choose the best bike to win a class.

Someone better tell Rossi if he ever rides here that he has to take 125 lines and never back his GP bike into a corner or spin/slide it out or we'll invent a whoile new class just for Valentino Rossi.

This is a dumb thread

:killingme :motu: :killingme :motu: :killingme :clap: :clap: Man... I think there is only one thing dumb round here :mellow:
Were and who does it say "lets ban taking different lines and riding different styles" ???

Smart folk huh! mate what kinda shit are you on... people ride/race the bike they do because thats what they enjoy :Punk:

And with the Rossi remark... now ya have lost it :scooter:

[scracha]

As some of you know I'm just getting into this racing thing but surely it's the people actually doing the racing who have a say. From reading on the forums here I get the vibe that most "traditional" sportsbike riders don't relish the thought of spending their hard earnt money racing against supermotards. If "traditional" F1/F2/F3 riders aren't happy with supermotard riders competing against them in the same race then as far as I'm concerned that's where the argument should end. You don't see sidecar racers complaining about not being able to compete in F1 do you?

It's about competitive racing, improving your riding (does racing against supermotards helps either rider improve (this isn't bait..I genuinely don't know) ?), having fun and spectator entertainment isn't it? Piss a lot of F3 riders and they'll vote with their feet. Piss a lot of supermotard riders off and they'll also vote with their feet (Piss everyone off and the spectators will vote with their feet).

If there are so many supermotard entries then they should have more races or have "junior" and "senior" supermotard classes. Preferably on additional sections with dirt, jumps and water on the track (they get the hoses out on the tracks in France).

Arguments about building "best bikes within the rules" are a waste of time. Rules are made to be broken and race vehicles that piss off into the distance even though they are within the rules normally get banned quite quickly (Kawasaki turbo, 6 wheel formula 1 cars, etc).

[Crasherfromwayback]

Oh goody, lets ban taking different lines and riding different styles now huh?
While we're at it, lets punish those smart folk who choose the best bike to win a class.

Someone better tell Rossi if he ever rides here that he has to take 125 lines and never back his GP bike into a corner or spin/slide it out or we'll invent a whoile new class just for Valentino Rossi.

This is a dumb thread

It's not at all a dumb thread....it just has the 'odd' dumb input.

[Goblin]

It's about competitive racing, improving your riding (does racing against supermotards helps either rider improve (this isn't bait..I genuinely don't know) ?), having fun and spectator entertainment isn't it?

If there are so many supermotard entries then they should have more races or have "junior" and "senior" supermotard classes. Preferably on additional sections with dirt, jumps and water on the track (they get the hoses out on the tracks in France).

Speaking from my own, all be it short, experience in racing...I have so far enjoyed mixing with all different sorts of bikes from the Motards to the 125 2strokes. For me, that's what it's all about. NZ is too small to be bickering about rules and who should be allowed to race in what class. Motard racers pay their entry fees like everybody else so they should be able to run in whatever class they're allowed to. Plus they seem to attract more spectators which has to be good for racing on the whole. If someone wants more track time at race days, buy a bike that can cross enter into other classes instead of moaning about not enough track time. I would like to see a dirt section for Motards at Taupo again....that used to be wicked!

[SixPackBack]

It's not at all a dumb thread....it just has the 'odd' dumb input.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion Crasher:done:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion Crasher:done:

And show me where I said they weren't?
Doesn't mean I have to agree with their opinion though does it?
And if me saying I don't agree isn't just another opinion, then what is it?
And your reply.....how does it differ from mine?

[SixPackBack]

Doesn't mean I have to agree with their opinion though does it?
Chill. Doesn't mean you have to revert to name calling when you don't agree Pete.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Chill. Doesn't mean you have to revert to name calling when you don't agree Pete.


And again mate...show me the 'name'...??

[Rashika]

It's not at all a dumb thread....it just has the 'odd' dumb input.
I'm actually finding it a VERY interesting thread, yup the odd pointless imput but also some excellant points, esp from those who have raced a lot over the years. its curious to see the difference from then to now.


Speaking from my own, all be it short, experience in racing...I have so far enjoyed mixing with all different sorts of bikes from the Motards to the 125 2strokes. For me, that's what it's all about. NZ is too small to be bickering about rules and who should be allowed to race in what class. Motard racers pay their entry fees like everybody else so they should be able to run in whatever class they're allowed to. Plus they seem to attract more spectators which has to be good for racing on the whole. If someone wants more track time at race days, buy a bike that can cross enter into other classes instead of moaning about not enough track time. I would like to see a dirt section for Motards at Taupo again....that used to be wicked!
I would LOVE to see Motards in their element...doing what they are specifically designed to do... racing on a combo of dirt and track. :Punk:

Unfortunately by being able to enter (for some) almost every class, kinda defeats the purpose of seeing them race each other in their element.

[dangerous]

And again mate...show me the 'name'...??

I have NO idea what the hell hes on about either, name calling christ what ever next.


Speaking from my own, all be it short, experience in racing...
I have so far enjoyed mixing with all different sorts of bikes from the Motards to the 125 2strokes.

Yeah I think if you had been involved out on the track a bit more and found your self locked up heading straight for a tard due to it turning all of a sudon, your green comment may differ, you are still thinking as a spectator.

[SixPackBack]

I have NO idea what the hell hes on about either, name calling christ what ever next.Calling a post or comment 'dumb' by inference is also calling the person who made the post 'dumb'.
It shows a lack of respect for another persons opinion.

[Rashika]

Calling a post or comment 'dumb' by inference is also calling the person who made the post 'dumb'.
It shows a lack of respect for another persons opinion.

not necessarily... intelligent people can do/say dumb things at times, just like idiots can do smart things at times.

But what did your post contribute to the discussion?

[ManDownUnder]

not necessarily... intelligent people can do/say dumb things at times, just like idiots can do smart things at times.

But what did your post contribute to the discussion?

elicit a response?

[Goblin]

Yeah I think if you had been involved out on the track a bit more and found your self locked up heading straight for a tard due to it turning all of a sudon, your green comment may differ, you are still thinking as a spectator.

No..I am definitely thinking as a competitor. I really do enjoy close racing with all the different sorts of bikes and riders. In fact I would go as far as to say I was disappointed there were no Motards in F3 at my last meeting. If you're locking it up due to someone else turning suddenly, you're obviously doing something wrong....I mean dont we all turn suddenly when we race?

[idleidolidyll]

well said and ya know what? that's a great way to learn to ride better in a race too
if all the bikes take the same lines and you follow them; you learn fuck all

[dangerous]

....I mean dont we all turn suddenly when we race?

Hell no... I like to think I flow nicley to the apex and flow just as sweet out the other side, locking the rear up and sliding it out is not what I call flowing.

[Goblin]

... I like to think I flow nicley to the apex and flow just as sweet out the other side...
Each to their own an all that eh.:yawn:

[peique]

I think it's a matter of safety. I'm not a racer but, I can understand how dangerous it may be to have a large number of motards mixed with road bikes. If motards are so popular, then they do deserve to have their own class and should stick with it. Anyhow, it's not like the changes can't be undone next season, is it? :scooter:

[dangerous]

Each to their own an all that eh.:yawn:

Cant answer that one properly can you?

Ok answer this... my post classic bike the Katana is alagible to race in F2, its over 1/4 a ton and has a fraction of power compaired to the real F2 bikes, it is a shocker in the handling depot... now what if all my post classic mates joined me in a F2 race, Ill tell ya what we would fuck it up for the F2 guys by blocking them in and holding them up... now I can put the bucket into F3... thats you I take it? now a full feild of us buckets would screw it up for you, and we would clean up in the corners.

But we dont go in those classes cos we have our own class, 99% like it like that.
And as far as lines go and your comment... I take a different line on the Kat to the bucket and I take as bigger diferent line on the Guzzi to the bucket.

[gav]

So what class where you in when you were racing against Motards then? Were you on your bucket or Kat?
And wouldnt the Kat be F1 not F2?

[idleidolidyll]

Hell no... I like to think I flow nicley to the apex and flow just as sweet out the other side, locking the rear up and sliding it out is not what I call flowing.

and if that is all you do every lap you've probably never won a race and may never do so.
If you've watched closely guys like Chrisa Haldane etc often have the rear wheel in the air under braking and slide out under power. They spend less time cranked over and more time on the throttle.

in a Sound of Thunder meeting in the 90's a mate loaned me his Ducati F1 to race. I'd never raced one before and discovered in practice that quite a few of the other bikes were much faster down the straights; particularly those of Chris Sayle and Fitzy from Thunderbike (Sayle had won every race in the first two meetings of the series but I hadn't had the free time to enter due to business comittments).
If I'd used the same lines as them I was fucked even before I started so I deliberately used different lines that fucked THEM up instead of the reverse. For instance, I took a really tight line into the 1st corner at Manfield and spun up the back wheel coming out. That meant I had outbraked them and then crossed their intended line going sideways. They had no option but to back off a little. I did the same at the hairpin.
Eventually I got enough of a lead in ther infield to overcome their speed advantage down the straights and won all 3 races in that class.
I used the same tactics in the Superstock race and on the 750 vs the bigger bikes managed to bag 3rd and 4th.

Again the point being that if you ALWAYS take the same lines you're easy prey for smarter riders.
That's why motards are so fast on tight tracks: they can take almost any line and can respond to a challenge far better than a 125 which is pretty much screwed if their cornering speed is balked by the kind of tactics I used as above. it's racing and unless you can take the lead on the first lap and hold it to the win, you'll always be vulnerable to guys who can take different lines.

[idleidolidyll]

Cant answer that one properly can you?

Ok answer this... my post classic bike the Katana is alagible to race in F2, its over 1/4 a ton and has a fraction of power compaired to the real F2 bikes, it is a shocker in the handling depot... now what if all my post classic mates joined me in a F2 race, Ill tell ya what we would fuck it up for the F2 guys by blocking them in and holding them up... now I can put the bucket into F3... thats you I take it? now a full feild of us buckets would screw it up for you, and we would clean up in the corners.



So what? That's racing. Racing is NOT about taking the fastest line every time through corners unless you are in the front and have a gap. Unless you use tactics that block riders behind, you;re likely to be passed. Unless you use lines that are different to the guy in front, you're unlikely to get past.

[idleidolidyll]

now a full feild of us buckets would screw it up for you, and we would clean up in the corners.


WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Hell, they could do it just by intentionally slowing down in front of you then accelerating away. Smart racers understand ALL the options.
The REAL problem would be that buckets would be moving chicanes on the straights

As I suggested earlier in this thread: rather than punishing motard riders for making a smart choice, a system where the slowest bikes are relegated to a B class after the first race or lap timed practice sessions is much smarter.

[Rashika]

WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Hell, they could do it just by intentionally slowing down in front of you then accelerating away. Smart racers understand ALL the options.
The REAL problem would be that buckets would be moving chicanes on the straights
but would it make it very much fun for you to be constantly having to avoid these riders, and not able to race your counterparts?
The point that is trying to made is that tho 'technically' they can race in these classes...and would probably cause havoc for those riders the class is more designed for... generally buckets, post classic etc DONT race in those classes as they HAVE THEIR OWN class. Just like clubmans is for any club member to go in.

[Rashika]

As I suggested earlier in this thread: rather than punishing motard riders for making a smart choice, a system where the slowest bikes are relegated to a B class after the first race or lap timed practice sessions is much smarter.
a lot of club days dont have a bclass... so that cant be done

[idleidolidyll]

but would it make it very much fun for you to be constantly having to avoid these riders, and not able to race your counterparts?
The point that is trying to made is that tho 'technically' they can race in these classes...and would probably cause havoc for those riders the class is more designed for... generally buckets, post classic etc DONT race in those classes as they HAVE THEIR OWN class. Just like clubmans is for any club member to go in.

Wouldn't bother me in the least; just more riders to pass.

Sometimes at a club race at Ruapuna I'd wait until all the bikes were past the first corner before I'd even leave the start line just so I could have fun carving them up.