Unlawful violation

[Colapop]

There has been, of late, some criticism for the way the justice system in this country has handled historical sexual violation cases. Notably in the Rickards, Schollum and Shipton trial. This is not about their guilt or innocence. If you want to debate that please go to the thread here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=45208). Sexual violation or rape is a particularly horrendous crime and when committed by a pack moreso (if that is possible). It has emerged that there is yet another case pending investigation against Rickards and the other 2 are currently serving time for rape. Does this cause rape to go unreported? Or is it because the people who commit this disgusting cowardly crime instill a fear of belief in the people they rape? "No-one will believe me." or "They won't get convicted (and then he'll come back)"

I know of a couple of women who, in their words would say they had, "traumatic experiences" or words to that effect. They won't say they've been raped, at least not out loud. I've seen the effect this has had on them, on their relationships, their demeanor, even their careers. In short these womens' lives have been affected in every way.


It's easy. Just go to the cops and tell them how you've been degraded. Tell them how you've been forced to submit to being violated. Just stand up and have the courage to answer the question in court "Are you sure you weren't mistaken?" Yeah because that's 'easy' just as their defence will say about you.
Do not let it go unreported. These criminals need to be brought to justice, regardless of station, position or community standing.

I am not a small man. I could hold a person against their will. I can only imagine what it would be like for someone to be held, unable to resist or fight the indecencies that these mongrels commit. It sickens me to my core. But I have not had it happen to me. I cannot know what that is like.

All that I have said is not to discourage you to come forward it is meant to show you are not alone. You will be believed and supported. If you do not have the courage to talk to the police directly then check here (http://www.rapecrisis.org.nz/content.aspx?id=18) or phone rape crisis: 09 360 4001(office) 09 360 4004(crisis). If you are in immediate danger call 111.

I have written this because there are too many victims out there, who have not said anything. If you do not reply but do get someone to help you then these words have helped. Guys this is not about lynching anyone (as much as we'd all like to), this about encouraging those that need our help. Rape is a dirty word, the victims aren't.

[Disco Dan]

Well said Colapop :yes:

I saw the words "unlawful Violation" and your name next to it... had to laugh.. then I read the post... :innocent:

There are too many false accusations from women just excersing their rights and using the biased views of gender from society; and then using it to their advantage.

[Jantar]

...Do not let it go unreported. These criminals need to be brought to justice, regardless of station, position or community standing.

This is most important thing. Report such events at the earliest opportunity, and preferably while there is still physical evidence. As more time passes between the events and the reporting, there is also more scope for people to start disbelieving that anything untoward occured. However, even reporting it years later will still damage the accused's reputation, even if a conviction is no longer possible.

[candor]

Yes Colapop. The word 'rape' is hard for victims to use. It immediately brings shock, horror and negative judgments. From many guys an instant kneejerk reaction such as...

"There are too many false accusations from women just excersing their rights and using the biased views of gender from society; and then using it to their advantage." - Disco Dan

It may not always be spoken (as above) but it often is thought or in the subtext of any given 'feedback' so women tread carefully re disclosure.

Would such attitudes be hurled at women who claimed their credit card was stolen?

Look at the few women to 'come out' as ex victims on recent threads. I don't believe many have said "I was raped" or 'someone raped me'.

Only 'I had a bad experienc'e or it is referred to indirectly eg It know such a trial is the worst thing you can go through.

There is no social permission to call a spade a spade. The word is traumatic to both use and to hear.

The fact that in the first 5 minutes of cop contact when I laid my complaint (about 30 minutes after being raped while shocked shaking etc) my initial statement was "I was attacked" before I soon after elaborated in more detail - was held against me by the defense in the Kangaroo Court.

"But you did not say you were raped initially - you said you were attacked".

Implication being that the 'story' just got bigger and bigger.

Did not matter I said "I was attacked" and then went on to elaborate a very short time later after a cup of tea and trying to find some clothes at the house I ran to, as I was in a sheet they provided.

To this day I fail to see how "rape" does not fall under the umbrella of attack.

Funny how people feel no fear or shame about using the words "I was robbed / bashed / slandered" etc

About the only other one that is a bit taboo is "I was conned". Its really horrible how the world wishes victims of rape would stay invisible. If they mention it or get involved in the issue either to help victims or politically they are seen as radical feminist lesbians with mental problems.

[Macktheknife]

Yes Colapop. The word 'rape' is hard for victims to use. It immediately brings shock, horror and negative judgments.

About the only other one that is a bit taboo is "I was conned". Its really horrible how the world wishes victims of rape would stay invisible. If they mention it or get involved in the issue either to help victims or politically they are seen as radical feminist lesbians with mental problems.

I feel for your situation, but you are being unfair to the rest of us. Nobody I know would ever wish that rape victims would stay invisible, or think less of a woman for revealing it had happened. Many do have a knee jerk reaction of shock horror etc, but the normal reason for this is not knowing how else to react.
Please realise and understand that I would never, and I do not think anyone I know would ever put down, humiliate, disbelieve or fail to help a woman in distress (or a man) or who was in this situation.
I feel for you but please do not paint the rest of humanity with that brush.

[trumpy]

Thankyou for your posting Candor. Right on the money. An important insight for all of us.

[Jantar]

"But you did not say you were raped initially - you said you were attacked".....

To this day I fail to see how "rape" does not fall under the umbrella of attack.....
Rape is usually a form of Attack, except in the cases of Statutary Rape where it is sometimes the female who initiates it. In your case Candor it sounds like you did everything right, and I hope the bastard who did it to you got lots of jail time.

[Disco Dan]

From many guys an instant kneejerk reaction such as... [Disco Dan Quote]


I feel I should retort...

My post reflects false acusations rather than implying most cases are false.

As a student teacher I have to be mindful of placing myself in such situations where the risk of acuasations would be increased, I simply wished to place a small spot light on the fact some women use this system to their advantage for financial/retaliation reasons.

Women already use their bodies to their advantage on a daily basis, and some have dropped so low as to cry wolf with rape when they find themselves in a situation.

In today's politically correct society, i would not be surprised if couples would soon be asked to sign a form, officially consenting to sexual activity.

[candor]

Ok that was a generalisation Mack. And you're prolly right that most people just don't know WTF to say if the subject is raised. But there are some idiots around.

No Jantar. It was acquitted in 88 as apparently I lied not him.
Fact - he (a brief acquaintance) broke in, kidnapped me and transported me elsewhere, used knife to intimidate and claimed before I escaped when he in lou that he 'had a few days for this before the Mrs got back" - which is what put the rocket under me to try getting out of the locked place when I did.
Cops said based on his record twas lucky I did make the break then. I actually considered diving thru a large plate window as could see no opening one.

But he was convicted re another (even worse) case a couple years later and got about 4 years in max security. I believe that triggered his wife to ditch him. She approached me once to ask what happened before court, I stupidly said "find out in court" and walked away. Unfortunately too much was suppressed in court so she did not really find out. And after I refused to speak to her I was harrassed by her mates and assorted thugs any time I was out in public. Obviously I left town.

At trial she was displaying a big bump to arouse sympathy from the jury. So I guess you could say that by laying charges I bought a rapists kid in to the world!

When he was in max security for his later crime I visited him as it seemed a safe place to ask why? He told me he is an animal tho that is not what he projects because (implied) he is clever. He said it was how he was raised and he feels no guilt (not in those exact words). Seemed to feel he was special for being 'different' ie a high up gang member. Said he was in anger management, as it made him angry that people would bring charges against him. It would be funny if not so scary and screwed up!

Two guards stood outside as they said his rage level made him a danger so be careful how I talked. Well he is out now - is 53, so I hope is not still on the prowl. Oh he also blamed the fact some "chic" gave him rolies (pills that make you aggro) and 'egged him on' to go get me. I'd forgotten that.

[candor]

Man Alive non violence help / counseling
http://manalive.org.nz/index.htm

Man links for other help places
http://manalive.org.nz/links.htm Includes mensline number

Sex-offender treatment
This is provided for free to some motivated offenders who receive custodial and non-custodial sentences. In the prisons treatment is provided by staff, and in the community it is normally provided by specialists under contract. New Zealand has established high-standard treatment programmes. There are three large community-based programmes in Auckland (SAFE), Wellington (STOP) and Christchurch(STOP). There are smaller programmes in Hamilton (STEPS) and Nelson (STOP). In addition, there are two effective prison programmes in Auckland (Te Piriti) and in CHCH (Kia Marama).

How hard would it be to seek help if you were an offender currently ?!?!
Rhetorical question, hopefully. If not expert help can help it stop.

[Colapop]

It is important that if you have had been the victim of an assault, attack or been violated that you seek help. Have the courage to speak up, even if you don't think it will help.

Predominantly men's attitudes to this sort of crime need to change. It has already been expressed here that it could be women crying wolf. Yes it happens. But there are so many more cases that go unreported for the fear of being treated as though they are making it up.

Huge respect for you Candor. Not only does it take courage to report what happened but to go through the case and to be able to talk about it makes you a legend in my book. Thanks.

[vifferman]

There has been, of late, some criticism for the way the justice system in this country has handled historical sexual violation cases.
PLease don't refer to it as "the justice system". It's a legal system, based on law, not justice. Occasionally it is just, but not often.

[ManDownUnder]

Man Alive non violence help / counseling
http://manalive.org.nz/index.htm

Man links for other help places
http://manalive.org.nz/links.htm Includes mensline number

Sex-offender treatment
This is provided for free to some motivated offenders who receive custodial and non-custodial sentences. In the prisons treatment is provided by staff, and in the community it is normally provided by specialists under contract. New Zealand has established high-standard treatment programmes. There are three large community-based programmes in Auckland (SAFE), Wellington (STOP) and Christchurch(STOP). There are smaller programmes in Hamilton (STEPS) and Nelson (STOP). In addition, there are two effective prison programmes in Auckland (Te Piriti) and in CHCH (Kia Marama).

How hard would it be to seek help if you were an offender currently ?!?!
Rhetorical question, hopefully. If not expert help can help it stop.

Run out of bling for you - but not respect... huge post - that's 2 I've seen in this one thread.



It is important that if you have had been the victim of an assault, attack or been violated that you seek help. Have the courage to speak up, even if you don't think it will help.

Predominantly men's attitudes to this sort of crime need to change. It has already been expressed here that it could be women crying wolf. Yes it happens. But there are so many more cases that go unreported for the fear of being treated as though they are making it up.

Huge respect for you Candor. Not only does it take courage to report what happened but to go through the case and to be able to talk about it makes you a legend in my book. Thanks.

Bang on the money dude...

This thread's giving me shivers... I personally know 4 people that'd experienced "sexual violation" in it's various forms - I'm not going to elaborate - it's not my place to either "out them".

What I can say is this - I've seen, first hand the effects of this nature of event a couple of times. My enduring frustration is that it was always (significantly) after the fact. I've not had the opportunity to do anything about preventing it. Those that know me will understand I'm not prone to violence... at all. I'm about the biggest pushover here, but seeing or hearing anything approaching this would do it.

I'm not sure if it can be plainly stated enough. Victims of sexual violation, in any form, are just that - victims. They must have our help and support.

I personally do not (and will never) see those people as "dirty", "lowly", "undignified", "deserving", "sluts", or any of the other labels that I know victims can sometimes assume. The people I know are all (ALL) high functioning individuals who should have the world at their feet, not on their shoulders. They are dignified, and they retain their dignity in my eyes. People don't lose my respect if they're robbed, shot, or injured in an accident. They maintain every ounce of it. They're also entitled to some help while they're down. I promise you... having gone through a major experience and come out the other side - you'll be walking tall, prouder than ever, and keen to help those that are currently down what the future holds when they get there.

Strangely, I look up to them in a way. I see them working through a battle which must be a hell of a challenge.

Anyone... hinting at, or confiding in you they are a victim must be taken seriously. I can understand it's not an easy thing to begin to address... so when the first clues start to appear, or are presented to you - take them very very seriously. The flags should go up. I'm willing to bet there are a number of people on KB that have experienced this kind of horror in their own lives, and I'd put $1000 on the fact most of us know someone that's affected (whether you realise it or not - it's not like they're wearing a sign).

To the victims of sexual assault, in whatever form, I say this
You are not alone. Find help as Col so very kindly pointed out. Find a survivor and speak to them. hey've been through it, and if they're able, they will probably help point you in the right direction for assistance.

You are not dirty. What happened is not of your choosing - it was the opposite. You have not been soiled like a paper bag to be thrown on the heap. You are a human being, with all the rights to respect, love and a bright strong future - like everyone else.

You can survive this. I happens, and it takes time. So give it time, but start the journey. Take one day at a time, and put one put in front of the other. Keeping it under wraps is going to hurt you... it won't go away. Honestly - it doesn't. It'll stay there under cover, for years... you may even think it's dealt with and gone... and it'll pop up and just rock your world.

Start the healing, find support, find help, and do things at your pace. Find someone you trust and have them help you, guide you, and listen to you.

In a situation like this it can sometimes help to walk in the shoes of the other... imagine you're a counsellor, calm, relaxed and able to help... what would you advise a rape victim to do? What would opinion of them be?

You know mine.

[ManDownUnder]

About the only other one that is a bit taboo is "I was conned". Its really horrible how the world wishes victims of rape would stay invisible. If they mention it or get involved in the issue either to help victims or politically they are seen as radical feminist lesbians with mental problems.

Agree with Mack on this one... I personally don't see it that way at all. I understand it can be bloody difficult to speak about it, and anyone with the guts to do it has my complete backing.

[pete376403]

Without trying to make light of the subject - is there sucha thing as "lawful violation"?
Maybe that applies when the perp is a cop...

[ManDownUnder]

Without trying to make light of the subject - is there sucha thing as "lawful violation"?
Maybe that applies when the perp is a cop...

Lawful violation would be by mutual consent... although the interpretation of "violation" would have to be used in either a bondage or penetrative sense I suspect. Don't know.

It has to be by mutual consent however.

Cop, judge, politician or not - I don't care. The victim's no more and no less of a victim

[RantyDave]

"There are too many false accusations from women just excersing their rights and using the biased views of gender from society; and then using it to their advantage." - Disco Dan
I think you're being a bit hard on Dan here. False accusations of rape are one of the bigger problems we face as a society. For a start, their existence casts an ever increasing shadow over real victims - making it harder for those who have been raped to be taken seriously. Secondly, for women who don't mind the effect this has on rape victims, false accusations of rape are a just wonderful weapon to use against an ex, or a one night stand with regret ... and potentially good blackmail fodder. And finally, who would want to be in the position of having been falsely accused of rape ... let alone found guilty.

From this point of view I think the Rickards et al decision was a good one - it has reinforced the need to report the attack as soon as possible. Our legal system is still based on the need to prove guilt rather than merely suspect it.

Dave

[ManDownUnder]

...it has reinforced the need to report the attack as soon as possible. Our legal system is still based on the need to prove guilt rather than merely suspect it.

Dave

Agreed - and that's a key point. What's more victims need to be supported at that time as it seems to be the most difficult period of all - immediately following the attack.

In the meantime - anyone with pieces needing to be picked up need to know they're not alone. It can be done, progress has to be made... but doing it alone would be incredibly difficult... while opening up to others seems difficult too...

And that's a shame because I think most people would be willing to listen, and if the person chosen doesn't get it, or take it seriously ...find another one who will...! But "just doing that" can't be easy...

[DMNTD]

...False accusations of rape are one of the bigger problems we face as a society.
...who would want to be in the position of having been falsely accused of rape...
Have been in these shoes several years ago...a then soon-to-be X claimed I raped her at gun point but she didn't phone the Police,instead she told certain members of the community. Was farking hell living with that hanging over me even though she decided to change her story after I phoned the cops due to having serious concerns re being done for something I didn't do!!! :angry:
To this day some members of that particular community still think I did it...it disgusts me that it is so easy for a female to create such an evil situation for a male with NO evidence whatsoever!
As mentioned before....bitches like that make it harder for the genuine victims of this disgusting crime and I believe that the false complainants should be jailed...

[Toaster]

Good Thread. Well said. There is no place for sex predators on this planet.

[Kittyhawk]

Interesting thread.

[Goblin]

From this point of view I think the Rickards et al decision was a good one - it has reinforced the need to report the attack as soon as possible. Our legal system is still based on the need to prove guilt rather than merely suspect it.

Dave
So you think rickards is innocent?

How do you think a 14 year old girl whose father is best mates with her RAPIST is supposed to have the knowlege and guts to tell ANYONE what has happened when the said rapist is at her house for a BBQ huh???

[ManDownUnder]

So you think rickards is innocent?

How do you think a 14 year old girl whose father is best mates with her RAPIST is supposed to have the knowlege and guts to tell ANYONE what has happened when the said rapist is at her house for a BBQ huh???

Rickards thread is over here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=45208)

That 14 year old girl needs to be able to tell her Dad, no matter what relationship he has with the accused. I have two little girls and when they're of age they'll get my unconditional support with accusations like that.

Should they prove to be false there will be consequences, but they're learning that now. Should they prove to be true - similarly - there will be consequences.

People are responsible for their actions. Pure and simple.

edit - that little girl also needs to be able to tell her Mum, Aunties, Uncles, Gradparents and so on...

[Goblin]

People are responsible for their actions. Pure and simple.
Not if you're assistant police commissoner!

Good luck with your girls...it's all very well to let your kids(boys as well) know they have your full support but when it comes to the crunch its not easy to come out and ask for help. Most people NEVER tell of their ordeal! And for good reason! They get accused of lying and "asking for it".

As for women who do falsely accuse men of rape...they are as bad as any rapist in my view, and there should be heavy penalties for those who do.

[avgas]

Cheers colapop i completely agree.
However the sadness of the matter is it is a double edged sword.
Like the boy who cried wolf there are women out there that crave attention. And unfortunately for those accused of rape - you are guilty until proven innocent.
Likewise if a guy is assaulted - best of luck there ever being a court case.
sorry i do not want to discourage women speaking out - i just want an even system as well. As i have seen the darker side of how men can be treated by the justice system - often with no evidence.

[Colapop]

...it's all very well to let your kids(boys as well) know they have your full support but when it comes to the crunch its not easy to come out and ask for help. Most people NEVER tell of their ordeal! And for good reason! They get accused of lying and "asking for it".
All the more reason that people be given the support and encouragement they need to come forward. I would far rather see 1 false complaint for every 20 than see victims have bear the curse for their lives. At least by saying something they are seeking help.

Avgas - We have to start somewhere. And there are far more hidden victims, than false accusers.

[ManDownUnder]

Not if you're assistant police commissoner!


Rickards thread is over here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=45208)


Good luck with your girls...it's all very well to let your kids(boys as well) know they have your full support but when it comes to the crunch its not easy to come out and ask for help. Most people NEVER tell of their ordeal! And for good reason! They get accused of lying and "asking for it".

As for women who do falsely accuse men of rape...they are as bad as any rapist in my view, and there should be heavy penalties for those who do.

Thanks... I wish myself luck too. I have some friends whose kids were molested by a friend of the family... that's kinda sharpened my senses when it comes to the "prove it" side of things...

I'll be letting them know lies will not be tolerated, but they have my full support in the pursuit of the truth, and the ride to the cop shop the register the complaint. That's a bit too simple and bolshy, but you know what I mean

[RantyDave]

So you think rickards is innocent?
Now, did I say that? And, as others have pointed out, the thread is question is here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=45208).

I was merely attempting to point out that the burden of proof in such cases, twenty years hence or not, has more upsides than down.

Dave

[Grahameeboy]

Have been in these shoes several years ago...a then soon-to-be X claimed I raped her at gun point but she didn't phone the Police,instead she told certain members of the community. Was farking hell living with that hanging over me even though she decided to change her story after I phoned the cops due to having serious concerns re being done for something I didn't do!!! :angry:
To this day some members of that particular community still think I did it...it disgusts me that it is so easy for a female to create such an evil situation for a male with NO evidence whatsoever!
As mentioned before....bitches like that make it harder for the genuine victims of this disgusting crime and I believe that the false complainants should be jailed...

I think you have hit the nail on the head Chris...good on ya for saying it.

A friend of mine split with Wife, not his choice, Wife accused him of violating his kid, not prooved and he still has not seen his kids in 7 years and they all live in Devonport....it is the cost of legal guys that prohibits him......sad

[Paul in NZ]

Well it’s amazin aint it… We all hate rapists… and lets face it, of all the crimes it’s right up there at the top of things to hate. Maybe it’s just because I’m really tired at the moment but frankly I’m about sick of people and their general nastiness and violence to other people. Weirdly – I’m often told I’m a rude person (ie I’m a bit intense for some folks) and I’ve often wondered just how many friendships I’ve lost due to what I consider are peoples poor moral standards. (in particular cheating on your partner when she is also a friend of mine etc). Yet I'm sure some people would consider me a pervert?

I dunno – we can’t talk about sex properly ‘cos it upsets people, we won’t talk about rape because it’s taboo. Ditto domestic violence, incest, drugs etc etc. Even acts of generosity on this site get branded as socialist, bleeding heart panisness…

I’m not even going to bother getting wound up about people that take advantage of my generous nature. But I'm not changing just because most people are prize pricks.

Frankly – if it was optional I’d divorce humanity – we are a pack of c**ts really and the longer i live the less I want to do with it.

[ManDownUnder]

Well it’s amazin aint it… We all hate rapists… and lets face it, of all the crimes it’s right up there at the top of things to hate.

Succinct but oh so true! Blingo!

[Goblin]

Thanks... I wish myself luck too. I have some friends whose kids were molested by a friend of the family... that's kinda sharpened my senses when it comes to the "prove it" side of things...

I'll be letting them know lies will not be tolerated, but they have my full support in the pursuit of the truth, and the ride to the cop shop the register the complaint. That's a bit too simple and bolshy, but you know what I meanMy Brother moved to UK and married a Pommy lass and they have 2 daughters. She wasn't happy that he couldnt maintain her lifestyle of holidays in the Mediterranean, midweek spa's etc. so she accused him of molesting their daughter. He lost his job, his house, his family, his dignity and nearly his life yet she never even pressed charges or went to police. He now lives in a dingy flat and gets unsupervised visits with his girls. Now if there was any truth to her accusations, why would she send her daughters off to spend weekends with a child molester. She is a prime example of a gutless wonder who uses men to her advantage then tosses them away like rubbish. It breaks my heart and I want my bro to come home but he wont leave his girls behind and his bitchface wife would never consider leaving her mummy and daddy to give the girls a far better lifestyle over here. Her way out is to accuse him of molestation.

RantyDave, it was you who brought up rickards case in this thread in the first place...I was just asking. You appear to think it was the right decision...so be it!

[ManDownUnder]

As a thought - in my ameteruish experience it seems that hope is needed for the victims.

Is it/would it be possible for those able to offer the voice of experience to somehow confidentially speak to those needing it?

We have mentors for riding bikes... to show the pitfalls, and help people along the path to success. What about some proof there is hope, victims are not alone etc?
I'm happy to co-ordinate things if people are willing to trust me with that information, but I'd prefer a woman to head things up as I expect some reluctance to get a man involved (and understandibly so)

[Colapop]

Anyone that wants to talk should find somebody to talk to. Either the crisis centres (even if it is an anonymous call) or somebody/anybody you trust or think you can trust.

[avgas]

Have been in these shoes several years ago...a then soon-to-be X claimed I raped her at gun point but she didn't phone the Police,instead she told certain members of the community. Was farking hell living with that hanging over me even though she decided to change her story after I phoned the cops due to having serious concerns re being done for something I didn't do!!! :angry:
To this day some members of that particular community still think I did it...it disgusts me that it is so easy for a female to create such an evil situation for a male with NO evidence whatsoever!
As mentioned before....bitches like that make it harder for the genuine victims of this disgusting crime and I believe that the false complainants should be jailed...
Ha it must be a Tga thing aye - some of the girls down their are rather cunning.
I remember getting into so much shit with girls from tga. Its like they see an opportunity to lie or something

[candor]

My mates bro was falsely accused i same situation as dmtd. He hung himself in garage. She admitted it when Police went to tell her the news. She should have been charged or something

[Kittyhawk]

It's a shame there are some evil people in the world. But there are also genuine good people to.

[DMNTD]

Ha it must be a Tga thing aye...
Nah was some farktard Northland honky muckhole....Karma is sorting her but doesn't help the victim,in this case me


My mates bro was falsely accused i same situation as dmtd. He hung himself in garage. She admitted it when Police went to tell her the news. She should have been charged or something
She should be made to join him IMO. Time for a reality check out there but hey,that's for a different thread I guess. :mellow:

[Colapop]

That's right mate. While there are guys out there who are true victims, I have to ask how many guys are there that hide their crime by claiming to be a victim? Point first and direct the blame away from themselves...?

[ManDownUnder]

It's a shame there are some evil people in the world. But there are also genuine good people to.

Very true - mostly good I find, some not so good, and a few find their way to the ends of that spectrum.

[idleidolidyll]

Here's a perspective from a jurors POV:

Not long ago I served on a jury where a middle aged man was accused of molesting a girl aged 11 or 12 (not rape but 'touching').

The evidence came down to his word against hers. Even though there were 2 other adults and several other children present in the house when the offence(s) were alledgedly committed, no eye witnesses were offered.

The prosecution wanted the jury to prosecute based on emotion (the teary statements of the girl) and the defence wanted to defend based on evidence (or lack thereof).

In the end, the judge, when instructing the jury, told us that in NZ, people must be PROVEN guilty and do NOT need to prove their innocence. He also instructed us that we must be sure that the evidence presented was sufficient to prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Given that the evidence was all her word against his, reasonable doubt DID exist and since no prior conviction was given as a perspective on the defendants personality, we had no option but to throw out the case because of lack of evidence. Every juror agreed that we did NOT know that the man was guilty or innocent but we DID know that there was not enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Colapop]

There are well publicised cases of false accusation and cases where the charges have not been proven. What seems to be conveniently forgotten are the victims. While there does have to be evidence to secure a conviction that does not mean a person hasn't been subjected to indecencies.

The point is here that victims should be heard. This is deemed a dirty issue - because it's too hard to deal with for a lot of people. Put yourself in the shoes of a victim, how the hell do they feel? Not for a few minutes or seconds, or for a contemplative theoretical exercise. They have to deal with it, inside them, at all times.

Granted there are false victims, but the scorn heaped on them also covers the ones who do need to be heard.

[ManDownUnder]

Granted there are false victims, but the scorn heaped on them also covers the ones who do need to be heard.

Mate - I think that's a key part of this... people are too quick to judge (or pre judge). She says this - he says that.

Let's go into this stuff with an open mind and establish actually what happened. No shame, only support - for BOTH sides. Let's face it - it's not going to be easy on anyone, no matter what the truth is.

... and then proceed on to find the truth, and deal with it accordingly.

Rape's a shit of a thing. I haven't been there - I don't know first hand, but I have seen how far and wide the pieces get scattered.

A simple song coming on the radio with lyrics that describe (or even hint at) intimacy can trigger horrific recollections of the past. Being spoken to by someone that reminds you of the perp, passing by the building where something happened, or a building that looks like it... being alone in the dark with a guy (walking home from the pub, in a movie theatre, in a car... etc) could all be triggers that make life hell - set the pulse racing, fire off the fight or flight response.

And who would ever know? Who else... would ever know? To the rest of us they're daily situations, quite normal, not threatening in any way, fun even. And yet someone that's been raped or otherwise threatened or violated is shitting themselves at every turn.

It's just not fair, and it's not acceptable.

Prejudging is a sure way to make sure people are not able to open up and start dealing with this MAJOR stress in their lives. Do not underestimate how major this is... it is right up there.

I note in the jokes section today there was a jopke posted which mentions sex and the various calories burned.... I don't recall the exact line but something like rough sex = 100 calories - having to hold her down = 600... or something like that.

Now to most of us with an open mind that's kinda funny if you're open to that, but walk in the shoes of someone that's been raped... and read it again. The joke become ugly and distasteful, and the person posting it comes under question in terms of their own morals... hell - it could be said they're siding with a rapist (sorry Placid - not picking on you. It's your joke but I'm just highlighting how viewpoints can be skewed).

Start with what you know... start with an open mind. Listen to what's gone on and the feelings and effects it has had on someone... support them. Like I say - both sides need support and understanding. The big question is "why".

Why was it reported?

rave off - sorry all.. this is a near and dear topic...

[candor]

I am confused by the red rep with the nice comment for an innocuos post I received this am. Can anyone explain?

[Colapop]

Rep has no substance. Red means I disagree with you. Green means I agree with you. Rep should either be scrapped altogether or made anonymous and without space for comment. Quite often people use it as a means of abuse.
Don't even give it a second thought - you've posted nothing that warrants any abuse of any at all in this thread.

Rep - you can't save it, spend it, use it. It doesn't make you a better person, less of a person, a king (or queen) among mortals or a pauper.

The worst thing about rep is you can't a new bike or bike bling with it!!

[ManDownUnder]

Back on track... and


BUMP

[Skyryder]

I am confused by the red rep with the nice comment for an innocuos post I received this am. Can anyone explain?

It take two people to have an intelligent conversation. Red reps are from those can not not have one. Put more bluntly you have pissed someone off with logic and they do not have the brains to respond with an opposing point of view in a like manner.

Good posts Candor, gutsy.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Well it’s amazin aint it… We all hate rapists… and lets face it, of all the crimes it’s right up there at the top of things to hate. Maybe it’s just because I’m really tired at the moment but frankly I’m about sick of people and their general nastiness and violence to other people. Weirdly – I’m often told I’m a rude person (ie I’m a bit intense for some folks) and I’ve often wondered just how many friendships I’ve lost due to what I consider are peoples poor moral standards. (in particular cheating on your partner when she is also a friend of mine etc). Yet I'm sure some people would consider me a pervert?

I dunno – we can’t talk about sex properly ‘cos it upsets people, we won’t talk about rape because it’s taboo. Ditto domestic violence, incest, drugs etc etc. Even acts of generosity on this site get branded as socialist, bleeding heart panisness…

I’m not even going to bother getting wound up about people that take advantage of my generous nature. But I'm not changing just because most people are prize pricks.

Frankly – if it was optional I’d divorce humanity – we are a pack of c**ts really and the longer i live the less I want to do with it.

Know how you feel. Won't go into my details. But there's not a man or woman here on KB who would not come to your aid if need be. Lifes a bitch at times but there is always some one worse off. Knowing that it, then becomes a beach.

Skyryder

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

I think you have hit the nail on the head Chris...good on ya for saying it.

A friend of mine split with Wife, not his choice, Wife accused him of violating his kid, not prooved and he still has not seen his kids in 7 years and they all live in Devonport....it is the cost of legal guys that prohibits him......sad


That is one thing that really gives me the shits big time. Zero tolerance for that.

Zero tolerace for parents using kids in those situations anyway.

[Grahameeboy]

That is one thing that really gives me the shits big time. Zero tolerance for that.

Zero tolerace for parents using kids in those situations anyway.

Tell me about it.............

[ManDownUnder]

Zero tolerance for those manipulating others for sexual gratification too... mutual fun is fine (of course) but anything one sided...

IT'S GONAD REMOVAL TIME!

[ManDownUnder]

Look... the chances are very good there are upwards of 10 women on here affected, and quite likely some of the men as well.

As with anything like this... there's always a MAJOR element of:
"I'm alone in this"
"No one wants to be burdened"
"I don't want to burden people"
"I'm not important enough"
"It'll just go away"
"I'm not worth it... I'm not worth anything"

To those affected I simply say this: Stand strong and let support find you. Find someone you totally trust and simply let them be there for you.

Take steps... small ones are fine.

Here's my personal view on it. We're a family - of sorts... and building on that concept - if I ever heard of anyone doing something to hurt my brothers or sisters I'd be there in a flash.

This shite is entirely unnacceptable and can never be condoned. I don't care if you said yes to start with (maybe as a bit of fun) then changed your mind, or if the 0offender simply forced themselves on you against your will.

You have the ultimate control over your own destiny. Your body is yours alone and NO-ONE is enttiled to assume anything of it without your express agreement... without coersion, manipulation, expectation, marital status or otherwise.

That body is YOUR temple... and yours alone. Never be fooled about that, and never be talked out of it. Your husband/wife may be climbing the walls in rage, frustration, ... whatever. But in the end you are ALWAYS entitled to say no.

"Why not" is going to be the next question ... "I'm not in the mood" or "I don't feel like it" are quite sufficient.

End of story as far as I'm concerned. It takes a bit for me to lose my faith in a person, but anyone coercing or forcing themselves onto someone else sexually... that'll do it in a heartbeat.

To anyone/everyone victim to this terrible situation. Kia Kaha... to you all.

Stand tall and stand strong. You are entitled to. If you need help to do so, there are a lot of good people out there that would be honoured to help..

Kia Kaha

[slowpoke]

But there's not a man or woman here on KB who would not come to your aid if need be.

Skyryder

Sorry mate but much as I would like it to be true that's just not the case.

We are but a cross section of society who happen to have something in common, so when it comes to people and personality's there's everything here from the sublime to the ridiculous. Whilst there are angels amongst us there are also people who would do evil against us.

My naive wish for the day? That life dealt people what they deserve...but unfortunately terrible things happen to good people and some scum seem almost blessed by good fortune. That's life, sometimes it's shitty, unforgiving and totally merciless but hopefully there'll be some glorious moments mixed in along the way...hopefully....

I'm suprised no-one has mentioned this: if most of us know (probably unwittingly) someone who has been raped/violated...then there is also a reasonable chance that we know a rapist.

How's that for an ugly thought?

Sad, offensive, disturbing, enraging it may be....but probably true.

Big ups to all those victims who are brave enough to come forward, you've shown more guts in those first moments of revelation than many people will have to show in a lifetime.

[ManDownUnder]

I'm suprised no-one has mentioned this: if most of us know (probably unwittingly) someone who has been raped/violated...then there is also a reasonable chance that we know a rapist.

How's that for an ugly thought?

Sad, offensive, disturbing, enraging it may be....but probably true.

Big ups to all those victims who are brave enough to come forward, you've shown more guts in those first moments of revelation than many people will have to show in a lifetime.


Sorry I cut some of it... brilliant post... yes yes and yes. That bit you put in bold... scary but probably true. Hence my desire to find a voice... to let them know what a disgusting, despicable, pathetic, act they have involved themselves in...

Friends or family... I don't care. I will never condone those actions no matter who the offender is.

I am aware there are always two sides to every story, and thesde stories often get complicated very quickly... but the bottom line for me is this - if the victim said no... the offender should have listened.