Poll: Standard 650 class

[Tim 39]

Just to get everyone's feelings on the proposed standard 650 class

[Hitcher]

You should add a poll. That may help.

[Tim 39]

You should add a poll. That may help.

It's there now

[Two Smoker]

I chose other, have kept out of this a bit, but will whack in 2 cents... Best option leave it, dont change the rules. BUT add a production based 650 class within the F3 class. Makes it more accessible...

[Tim 39]

I chose other, have kept out of this a bit, but will whack in 2 cents... Best option leave it, dont change the rules. BUT add a production based 650 class within the F3 class. Makes it more accessible...

oops yea i was meant to say that as part of the production 650 option, it should say that the production 650 class runs as a seperately scored class, inside the existing F3.
sorry am i able to change what the poll says? (I'm a touch computer illiterate at times)
thanks

[White trash]

I like the idea of mostly stock. Changing a muffler makes it more affordable as stock ones are fricken expensive should you bin. Also, changing the internals of the forks, and the rear shock makes the bikes a lot safer as SV650s for example have pretty crap suspension as stock.

Other than that, chuck race tyres at them, your choice of brake pads (retain stock calliper and disc size and away ya go. Mint class.

[Tim 39]

I like the idea of mostly stock. Changing a muffler makes it more affordable as stock ones are fricken expensive should you bin. Also, changing the internals of the forks, and the rear shock makes the bikes a lot safer as SV650s for example have pretty crap suspension as stock.

Other than that, chuck race tyres at them, your choice of brake pads (retain stock calliper and disc size and away ya go. Mint class.


yea thats my opinion too, I thought if everyone had that opinion then why isnt it running already!

[Keystone19]

It's a done deal as far as MNZ is concerned:

Just awaiting the proposed rules from MNZ Chief Steward Paul Stewart.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=978809&postcount=19

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

my 2c. front fork emulators and spring upgrade and rear shock replacement should be the minimum for rider safety. rear can only replacement i agree with and brake pad upgrades would be good.

[DEATH_INC.]

Why replace the rear shock? Are they not rebuildable/revalveable? Why not the same for the rear as the front.......would knock $1000 off the cost of building a competitive bike for a start.....
But otherwise the can, brake pads and suspension package seems good to me.

[Steve_R6R]

I clicked "other" as a front fork upgrade option would be an idea.

Does anybody have an idea of a timeframe for these rule changes?

Will this have any effect on the Vic Club winter series or is it just for the nationals?

:confused: :rolleyes:

[Keystone19]

As far as i understand it, MNZ plan to have this as a championship production class for 2008. Don't know what VMCC will do.

[SPman]

I reckon, leave the standard suspension - fork oil only - if the standard suspension is crap - tough - ride around it! Everyone will then be in much the same boat.

Otherwise - rebuild suspension only, no replacement Ohlins rear shocks or anything.

[Tim 39]

I reckon, leave the standard suspension - fork oil only - if the standard suspension is crap - tough - ride around it! Everyone will then be in much the same boat.

Otherwise - rebuild suspension only, no replacement Ohlins rear shocks or anything.

they seemed to think that a suspension upgrade in the rear was the best option, as there were safety issues around the fade that the standard shocks could have towards the end of the races etc

[k14]

they seemed to think that a suspension upgrade in the rear was the best option, as there were safety issues around the fade that the standard shocks could have towards the end of the races etc
Well what they should probably do is approach a middle of the range rear shock manufacturer and get a good deal on a bulk purchase of shocks. Then sell them at cost (or even subsidised) to the field. Not sure how much a ohlins rear costs but if they get a slightly lesser brand with still a few adjustments they will again keep costs down and make it more affordable and safer for the racers.

[oyster]

It'll be great when this new class comes. But there's nothing to stop any club getting a few supp rules in, then start running them right now in F3. Suggest a different colour number board, and for clubs to put up points and trophies. It'll grow naturally then, and fast.
Upgrading suspension is not spending money, it's saving it thru better tyre life. Primitive suspension wrecks tyres. Here in the South Streetstock now has the problem of such a hot pace that good tyres can disintegrate in one meeting. Imagine that situation with twice the weight and power! Suspension upgrading is essential and it also provides a learning platform before people go up to the much less forgiving 600SP class.
125GP is a great development class, but it's not for everyone. This new class will provide alternative.

[TonyB]

From my own observations when racing, a stock SV650 has slightly better acceleration than my V2 750 2 valve air cooled. A stock 400 in line 4 is just about exactly the same as my bike. So if the 650's had to run with an unmodded engine, with limited enhancements allowed for the 400's then the class should work well and fit in with existing F3 bikes.

The problem arrises with people who have poured money into their bikes suddenly being ineligable. Thats a bit of a tough one. My viewpoint is that F3 is intended to be a entry level class- ie low budget. There has got to be a class that the average person can enter, otherwise the only people who will be able to race competitively will be the wealthy. There has got to be a class where someone in a lower income bracket can race against EQUAL machinery and prove that they can ride well. That way they can attract sponsors- without sponsors their careers will go nowhere. Sponsors can't tell who is a good rider if they are watching a good rider on a $30K F3 bike thrash an excellent rider on a $5k bike. If people have been spending tens of thousands modifying their F3 bikes engines etc, then in my view they were in the wrong class. The point will be raised that motorsport is expensive, get used to it. Well if thats your viewpoint, you made the decision to spend the $$$, nobody forced you to do it- and since you accept that motorsport is expensive then you won't mind having wasted your money.:innocent:

I was going to say leave suspension as it is, the theory being if we are all on crap suspension, then we'll all be in the same boat. But reading oysters comment I can see that I'm still too slow to have come across the problems crap suspension will cause.

[212-Motorsport]

With the departure Of the 250gp class why couldnt that be replaced with a strictly production 650cc class with optional suspesnion upgrade,production tyres and no engine mods apart from muffler.

we have kawasaki hyosung gagiva and suzuki witch are all twins
so it wouldnt be just a one brand class.

[fatboy1]

I like the above idea. Mixing the classes will make it difficult for joe public to know what is what. I think the proposed class is much needed to give all these young racers somewhere to go after streetstock.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

I like the above idea. Mixing the classes will make it difficult for joe public to know what is what. I think the proposed class is much needed to give all these young racers somewhere to go after streetstock.

I agree, this class of racing does appeal due to its lower cost of racing than in F2 and the racing should be very close, closer than f3 as everyone has similar horsepower and handling capabilities. cant wait....

[Pumba]

This all sounds like a great idea, the only problem I see is that is a realitivly cheap form of motorsport which may encourage me get get in to racing :doh:

[Tim 39]

Pete made a good point that all we need to get the wheels turning on this class, is set it up at club level, and get the support and enthusiasm behind it.
so everyone nag there clubs for this class to run in the original F3 with red numbers or something (F3 has white and 125's have black)
so come on people!!! get this going, your sport needs you!!!

[Tim 39]

This all sounds like a great idea, the only problem I see is that is a realitivly cheap form of motorsport which may encourage me get get in to racing :doh:

That's the idea, to get all of you "its too expensive" people into racing and see the sport grow because of it :yes:

[Cleve]

Leave it as it is.
What is wrong with SV's with GSXR front forks? They are a cheaper form of motor racing and with these mods make a really good little race bike. They go well, sound good and they are looking nice with a variety of fairing styles thrown on them. Gary Pendalton's red SV thing for example looks gorgeous...(is that an Aprilia RS tail section?)

Modified SV's are a great race bike and until Japanese license rules and/or fashion trends change again and they start making race rep 400's (can't wait!) then these are one of the better bikes to have in F3.

[Tim 39]

Leave it as it is.
What is wrong with SV's with GSXR front forks? They are a cheaper form of motor racing and with these mods make a really good little race bike. They go well, sound good and they are looking nice with a variety of fairing styles thrown on them. Gary Pendalton's red SV thing for example looks gorgeous...(is that an Aprilia RS tail section?)

Modified SV's are a great race bike and until Japanese license rules and/or fashion trends change again and they start making race rep 400's (can't wait!) then these are one of the better bikes to have in F3.
there will still be the F3 as you know it, where you can do what you like to your suspension etc and 400s etc, but it will be a seperate class to the one we're talking about. You would still be a part of F3 instead of production 650's

[Cleve]

there will still be the F3 as you know it, where you can do what you like to your suspension etc and 400s etc, but it will be a seperate class to the one we're talking about. You would still be a part of F3 instead of production 650's

Yeah I get it but I wonder if the S 650 class will actually work. Me thinks most people will just keep racing their slightly modified (or slightly more modfied) bikes in F3 rather than the S 650 only.
The only way that more people will ride their 650's in the S 650 class and not F3 is if SuperMotards can race in F3 but not in the 650 class.

[k14]

What about trying to get a FZ6 cup series up and running over here? Thats what they have just started up in Auzzie, big ups to yamaha for such a great initiative. $7.5 gives you the bike, entry fee and tyres for all rounds of the auzzie superbike champs. Pretty good deal if you ask me, the level of riders seems to be ok too.

[TonyB]

What about trying to get a FZ6 cup series up and running over here? Thats what they have just started up in Auzzie, big ups to yamaha for such a great initiative. $7.5 gives you the bike, entry fee and tyres for all rounds of the auzzie superbike champs. Pretty good deal if you ask me, the level of riders seems to be ok too.
7.5K???:gob: Doesn't it cost around 20K just to compete in all the rounds here on an RS125? It would probably get more support here with a V-twin bike... dunno, but whatever, the idea is awesome. So do they KEEP the bike? Surely not- it must be like the rent-a-racer idea that was tried here with the SV650 when it first came out

[k14]

7.5K???:gob: Doesn't it cost around 20K just to compete in all the rounds here on an RS125? It would probably get more support here with a V-twin bike... dunno, but whatever, the idea is awesome. So do they KEEP the bike? Surely not- it must be like the rent-a-racer idea that was tried here with the SV650 when it first came out
The winner of the series gets to keep his bike. Yep that is about the same money I recently spent on the whole series (and would be enough to need to spend to win the championships). As far as I can tell, you pay the $$ and yamaha give you the race prepped bike, pay all your entry fees and give you one new set of tires for each round. You have to organise getting you and your bike to every meet.

Sounds like a pretty awesome idea to me, pretty affordable if you ask me.

[steveyb]

Some perspective? The one model class of racing, or the one type class of racing are initiatives that work extremely well overseas. The UK for example have Pro-Twins, Aprilia125 for teens (Superteen Cup, Formula 125), MZ's, and the new KTM Superduke class, among others at Postclassic level. Some of the younger members will be unaware that a similar idea was tried in NZ at the SuzukiCentralRaceSeries where one could Rent a Racer which were identical SV650's with no fairings and minimal mods. You paid your money and rode the bike and that was that.
For a variety of reasons this did not translate into a larger initiative, eg project into the future after a few years of developing the concept; the bikes now have fairings and race suspension, you pay your money you get one bike assigned to you, the mechanics look after it, you just turn up and ride. And hey presto we have the Yamaha Virgin Mobile R6 cup.
Now, my suggestion is that the concepts work, but that a certain mindset needs to be in place before they will take hold.
1) Someone or a group need to take the business risk and provide the machines, either in a rent a racer format, or simply for sale to the public. This is OK for the Pro-Twins, but not for other types, in NZ.
2) There needs to be a willingness to race one model or type of bike in the marketplace. This seems to be a MAJOR stumbling block in NZ. NZers (like me) seem to be a touch too individualistic to really get on board with such initiatives. That is perhaps why we see that guys will persist riding a Superbike or similar that is really not competitive rather than getting the best bike in the class, 'cos everyone else has one, I want to be different.
3) NZers seem to be not so good at looking at the big picture sometimes. VMR6 cup is 18,000 pounds + VAT for 2007. WOW that's a lot you say. But slow down, this gives you a bike to ride at 10 (?) BSB meetings on live TV. New tyres each meeting, a fully prep'd bike you don't need to cart around or maintain, as many crashes as your body can handle (within reason I am sure), at least one bike write off. Add all that up individually and pay for it yourself and see how far 18k gets you.
This idea of paying up front (but it can be paid in installments) for the experience and to not have the bike is foreign to us and would take some getting over.
On the other hand, having our own bikes gives us something to tinker with, whether we know what to do or not.
THe idea of keeping the cost down is good, so a business of some sort needs to make bulk purchases of equipment that will fit these bikes to supply the riders at good prices. But which bikes??? All of the 650 twins? How many of each? It is too much inventory and too much risk.
My own opinion leans toward the one model class so that EVERYONE knows where they are, suppliers can have certainty of sales and riders certainty of supply and the best riders will stand out.
Cheers.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Add all that up individually and pay for it yourself and see how far 18k gets you.

you mean $60,000 NZ :gob: :gob: :gob: :gob: