Double fatal crash, Rotorua (29 April)

[Krusti]

Just seen on news...

Two motorcyclists killed in collision with car, SH33, Okere Falls, Rotorua this afternoon.

My thoughts are with the families of those concerned....RIP.

[Colapop]

Indeed - shocking accident. RIP riders.

[MSTRS]

There but for the grace of....
RIP

[Beemer]

Yes, I just saw that too and hope like hell it wasn't the two Germans we had staying with us last week. They were heading in that general direction. The news said the police were trying to identify them but at this stage I am not sure if there was one motorcyclist and pillion or two motorcyclists. They would have had loads of ID on them so I am hoping it wasn't them, but whoever it was, my thoughts are with their families.

I am not after names, but if anyone here does know more about the accident (such as the type of bike/s involved), I'd appreciate a PM to set my mind at ease.

[Scorpygirl]

Yes, we saw it too. Just waiting to hear about Auckland friends that were in that area today. My thoughts are with family and friends tonight.

[Ixion]

News report was two motorcycles, and both motorcyclists dead.

[far queue]

... if anyone here does know more about the accident (such as the type of bike/s involved), I'd appreciate a PM to set my mind at ease.A red Moto Guzzi was shown lying in the grass at the side of the road, I don't know the model sorry.

RIP

[Scorpygirl]

Yes, we saw it too. Just waiting to hear about Auckland friends that were in that area today. My thoughts are with family and friends tonight.

Just heard that all my Auckland friends are safe and sound. Thank goodness but still feel sadness for the riders, family and friends. RIP.

[tri boy]

Sad, sad news.
RIP

[Beemer]

Ixion must have watched TV3 news as that is what I heard too, but two people have sent PMs (thanks) saying it was a red Guzzi so although I feel sorry for the two who have died, I am relieved it doesn't appear to have been our friends.

[Titanium]

RIP bikers ........

[skidMark]

R.I.P may heaven be an endless windy road.

condolences to the familys.

[Ronin]

R.I.P

Condolances

[Motig]

Looked like one of the sport models before the V11 I think. God this is getting depressing, there seems to be a couple of fatals a week. Thoughts to the families and RIP fellow bikers. Just take care out there please everyone.

[jtzzr]

RIP Bikers....and sincerest condolences to family and friends.

[yungatart]

<kjgsohgkjdgk>

[laRIKin]

R.I.P and condolences to the familys.

The news on the radio got SDU heart going until she heard it was in Rotorua.

[Matt_TG]

A sad day for the BOP. Our thoughts go out to family and acquaintances of the riders, RIP.

[nudemetalz]

Sad news alright.

RIP to them and condolences to the families. :(

[babyB]

nn
tis a sad day Rip bikers condolences to families and all concerened

Dear lord A word, if i may,
I suppose one could say,
This constitutes,
An attempt to pray,
Neither selfishness nor greed,
Rather, a heartfelt need,
For Asphalt Angels,
To intercede.

[paturoa]

...........

[jafar]

Always sad when you lose one , but two is a real tragedy :bye:

R I P riders:(

[howdamnhard]

My condolences and symphathies to the families of the deceased,may they rest in peace.:bye:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Condolence to family,friends and all those involved thoughts are with you all.

[DemonWolf]

Thoughts go out to Family Friends and loved ones... Condolences.

R.I.P

[Nasty]

RIP as you go to join those who have fallen before ... condolences to the family and friends ...

[robertydog]

My condolences and symphathies to the families

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Rip. In God we trust
________________

[mikey62]

My thoughts to their families & freinds

[busaman]

Condolences to all involved

[raster]

:weep: ...........

[BarBender]

............................

[one-speed]

rip
+---------------

[Lissa]

rip

...................

[chanceyy]

R.I.P bikers ..

thoughts with the families .

[Jeaves]

rip

........

[PHAT240]

Sad day when we lose fellow bikers even when we didnt know them, and being so close to home. My prayers go out to family and friends RIP

[candor]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4042328a11.html

An absolute disaster. Wellwishes to the injured - condolences to the rest.

[Street Gerbil]

r. i. p.
- - -

[Paul in NZ]

The Guzzi world is a smaller one today - a sad business...

[toads]

What a tragedy, out hearts go out to the families of all concerned. Rest in peace bikers

[Shadows]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4042328a11.html

An absolute disaster. Wellwishes to the injured - condolences to the rest.

I didn't like what I read there. Not one bit.

[Kinje]

..........

[avgas]

Crossing the center line for no reason is an act of stupidity. Especially with your kids in the car.
I hope someone in NZ learns a vital lesson here.
I hope the families can recover from this.

[MidnightMike]

Sad news indeed, rip fellow biker.


.................................................. ......

[sAsLEX]

RIP to the riders.

[MD]

Terrible news. RIP.
Sounds similar to the recent fatal in Upper Hutt a few months ago. Car crossed the centreline on a reasonably straight road into the path of an oncoming bike. You do wonder if we are invisible at times.

[The_Dover]

i'm glad it was none of the pricks i know.

[Southern man]

rip. keep your eyes open and be alert!

[McJim]

Condolences to those left behind.

RIP

[krash69]

i got a call this arvo about the crash......

coz i used to work for that tow company i went to the yard when they unloaded the bikes....

tow moto guzzies .......i loooked for the wof tags........one red one from the mount and the other was wellington.......

the wellington one was two up both died....... and the rider off the mount bike wasnt much better i was told by the towies......


the drunk driver hit them.........was flowen out too...that dumb prick had his family with him also in the car......

r.i.p. to the ridders they dont need that to happen .......dam drunk drivers !!!!!!!

[dogsnbikes]

As everyone is .................................................. ...#$%@^%$

[EJT]

RIP riders. Such a tragic waste

[Goblin]

Heartfelt condolences to families and friends of these people.
May they rest in peace.

[Toaster]

Drink drivers - they should be strapped to the road and allow us to do burnout on their soft-bits.

Condolences to the lost riders families. Terrible waste of lives.

[sAsLEX]

You're right, there's no accounting for the stupidity of some people.

Either the cops are lying about the abandonment and they'll be found out when the Comms tapes are disclosed, which would make them inherently stupid....



Comms tapes dont mean much if the pursuit isn't accurately relayed to comms......

[paveho]

......................

[scumdog]

So, so sad for these two on the bike, not good at all.

[sidecar bob]

The deceased is a good mate of my brother.
A fine chap from Mount Maunganui & his lady friend.
R.I.P mates.

[ceebie13]

As people who do 90% of our motorcycling two-up, we can't bear to think about this tragedy. Our thoughts go to the families, loved ones and friends of all the innocent parties involved in this sad event. RIP.

Rich & Lynda

[Biohazard]

RIP guys............................................. :bye:

[Krusti]

Just heard this morning, second rider passed away. Does not look good for the car driver either.

My thoughts really do go out to the families left behind.

[sidecar bob]

Just heard this morning, second rider passed away. Does not look good for the car driver either.

My thoughts really do go out to the families left behind.

Yes, that is correct, He passed away at 1.30am
Another fine chap from Mt Maunganui.
My nephew's boss, A Truck mechanic.
Much sadness in the family.

[Kendog]

Sad sad news.

RIP.

[Meekey_Mouse]

Man, that sucks :(

RIP bikers

[Swoop]

Thoughts and condolences to all concerned. RIP riders.


Respect for those who are not with us.

[quickbuck]

RIP to the fallen.
Least we forget.

Condolences to the friends and family of the victims.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

It's a sad day indeed :weep:

[ManDownUnder]

Condolences to the families and friends. Respect to Police, Ambos and Fire in attendance.

Do we know this was a DIC or (no disrespect krash69) are we relying on hearsay?

[James Deuce]

Do we know this was a DIC or (no disrespect krash69) are we relying on hearsay?
Yes. Check the press releases on all the major news sites.

[terbang]

Terrible, terrible loss of good lives.
RIP

[Reckless]

We've all had our near misses.
When we read a thread like this we wish we hadn't, because we feel relief that it wasn't us.
But we also know, more than anybody, that bikers tend to be, fun loving, out going types of people. So when loosing some of our own, we all feel a greater sense of loss than normal!

RIP

[spudchucka]

The cops are quoted in the Stuff article saying that speed, alcohol & failure to keep left are the main factors. However the alcohol level won't be known until the toxicology results are known, so yes at this stage it is speculation. Although probably quite reasonable to believe that it is accurate speculation.

[Donor]

Condolences to the families, love to the poor kids that had to see people die...

[aff-man]

rip..........

[u4ea]

rip................................... ................................... ..........................................

[Mr Merde]

My thoughts and condolences go out to the families of those who have died.

A terrible waste.

[Stroker Girl]

Terrible news, my condolences to the family and friends of the fallen bikers.

[placidfemme]

rip :(

..............

[Drum]

rip

.......

[nudemetalz]

As I have a red Guzzi and I'm from Wellington, just like to say it's not me.

This is so sad, esp that drink was involved.

RIP to the riders.
May they ride their Rattly Tappets in heaven...

[Paul in NZ]

As I have a red Guzzi and I'm from Wellington, just like to say it's not me.
...


I was worried for a bit...

[Cheeky]

My thoughts and condolences go out to the families of those who have died.

My Wife and I were out riding with our daughter and son in law to Rotorua when we came across this terrible accident. We did not stop as there were already plenty of people giving what little assistence they could. The public are very quick to help in circumstances like this but there was just so little that could be done..... made for a very sobering ride to Rotorua. Didnt even see a car passing anyone.

[Matt]

Just heard the 3rd biker has died too :(

[jahrasti]

rip
.........................

[Macktheknife]

Condolences to the families and friends.......

God save us all from this fate

[NZHog]

<____> rip

[SDU]

May they all RIP.
Condolences to all family & Friends

[WRT]

Very sad, my thoughts go out to the families.

RIP, fellow bikers.

[Bend-it]

Sadness and anger jump up. 3 people killed by someone else' stupidity and selfishness.

Sadness and anger... dollops of them...

RIP bikers...

[sunhuntin]

ride in peace..... you will not be forgotten. :bye:


hope that drunken ass has to do jail time if he recovers. its out and out murder... driving drunk, speeding and not keeping to his side of the road. with 3 kids in the car as well. fucking asshole. :angry:

[Beemer]

hope that drunken ass has to do jail time if he recovers. its out and out murder... driving drunk, speeding and not keeping to his side of the road. with 3 kids in the car as well. fucking asshole. :angry:

Unfortunately, having lived in the BOP for many years, this driver, should he live (I hear he's not doing well), probably won't learn a fucking thing from this accident. Remember the guy who fell asleep at the service station recently with his kid in the car? It wasn't HIS first offence either. I just feel gutted that he took out three innocent riders who probably had very little time to react.

[Lias]

RIP fellow bikers.

The gutting part is that if the drunk driver lives, he'll get a slap on the wrist at best. People who drink drive and kill someone should be charged with murder IMHO.

[Northpoint]

Very sad indeed. RIP.

[terbang]

Three now..! Jeez, alcohol seems to be behind many of the bad things happening to humans in NZ..!

[krash69]

i didnt have hair say ....

as i siad i went to the towies yard and talked with them as they unloaded the bikes and car........

and they are a very reliable sorce of information too.......

they also told more details which i will not say do too the grusome side of things and you guys dont need to no those facts......

as we are all riders and no wot sort of injurys can happen at a head on with a car......

[Her_C4]

Another senseless loss... :angry: My condolences to family and friends. Rest in peace riders...

[kiwifruit]

Rest in Peace

[fishb8nz]

What an utter waste. What a sad loss, even for the rellies of the driver.

Dying so young is sad, but I'd rather die doing something I loved, as they obviously did, than in a rest home.

RIP

[SPman]

Tragic to hear of things like this happening. :angry: Sounds like everybodys worst nightmare. Condolences to all involved.

[classic zed]

It is indeed a sad case when people think its ok for them to drive under the influence of alcohol or drugs. :angry:

As mentioned earlier it should be treated as murder or at the very least manslaughter.

Condolences to the families of the riders and I hope that the kids in the car soon recover.

[Patrick]

It is indeed a sad case when people think its ok for them to drive under the influence of alcohol or drugs. :angry:

As mentioned earlier it should be treated as murder or at the very least manslaughter.

Condolences to the families of the riders and I hope that the kids in the car soon recover.

Did a reckless act (drove while drunk, perhaps?) and caused the deaths (of three bikers) should = Manslaughter.

[Sniper]

rip ...........

[90s]

Terrible for the riders familes and friends. Would prefer though that the NZH led with "drunk car driver kills 3 motorcyclists" rather than "Motorcycle crash death toll rises to three" as if this is the fault of the bikes. I note a lot of sympathy for the drunken car-twat in the article, which doesn't move me much. Unless there is a culture change within certain sections of society that read these stories as tragic accidents ("don't punish me/my son/our local boy further for killing some biker/pedestrian/school mates in a drunken hoon because I am really sad about it ...") this should be classed as manslaughter clean and simple.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10436910

[Bruiser]

We were on our way back from a trip down south and several well-meaning calls from friends and family who thought we may be involved.

Although glad to allay their fears we were (and are) saddened at the tragic loss to brother and sister riders.

[Buster]

R.I.P

Condolences to the familiy and friends.

[Smokin Joe]

Very shocking accident. I believe a male and female pillion died instantly and the other rider died this morning.

The rumour mill has it on very good authority that the car driver has been breathalised and has priors for DIC.:angry: The car was on the wrong side of the road. He had three grandchildren in the car with him. The car driver is in hospital in a serious condition.

Rest in peace our fellow bikers and condolenses to family and friends.

Regards,

Smokin Joe

[Disco Dan]

RIP Fellow riders....

I hope the car driver survives... so that justice can be served.

[crusa]

RIP people, my heart goes out to the families and i also hope if the driver was drunk he gets what he deserves.

[WickedOne]

RIP, always sad to hear.

[Scorpygirl]

So sad to hear that two deaths have now become three from this one accident. RIP to all. Once again condolences to family and friends.

[RantyDave]

This is on stuff now - http://stuff.co.nz/4043390a11.html

Senior Sergeant Ed Van Den Broek said investigations were at an early stage, though alcohol was believed to be involved. "At this stage, we can say the car crossed the centreline into the path of the oncoming bikes"

Dave

[riffer]

Two words.

Vehicular manslaughter.

I don't know what else to say. :no:

[Edbear]

RIP fellow bikers.

The gutting part is that if the drunk driver lives, he'll get a slap on the wrist at best. People who drink drive and kill someone should be charged with murder IMHO.



I tend to agree. Drunk drivers who kill should face an mandatory charge of manslaughter, upgradable to murder if the driver is recidivist.

[Horney1]

May you rest in peace fallen riders.

My condolences to the families and friends.

It sent a chill down my spine to hear about riders down on a road I know very well. As some have said the driver will probably only get a slap on the wrist and he won't learn. It's a pity natural selection seems to favour idoits in cages.

_________________________________________
Ride the edge and explore the limits sometimes and keep those (survival) skills sharp as a razor! It may be the only thing that saves us from these assassins!

[KATWYN]

"At this stage, we can say the car crossed the centreline into the path of the oncoming bikes"



As a motorcyclist and a car driver, everytime I read - "A car crossed the centre line" I get a sinking gut feeling.

Our fellow bikers never stood a chance.

Rest in peace fellow bikers.

[Blueskies]

ride in peace..... you will not be forgotten. :bye:


hope that drunken ass has to do jail time if he recovers. its out and out murder... driving drunk, speeding and not keeping to his side of the road. with 3 kids in the car as well. fucking asshole. :angry:

I couldn't have said it any better, sunhuntin. Total agreement.

Rest in peace, bikers.

[Mom]

This is a terrible thing to happen, but terrible things happen...........today must be the best day you can have! It could have been me is all I need to make every day the best!..........My heart goes out to the friends and family of those killed and for the children in the car that hit them...........so sad

[Vagabond]

............................

[miSTa]

What a waste, would be a pretty cold and heartless person without a tear in their eye..

RIP

[RantyDave]

Our fellow bikers never stood a chance.
I know, makes me feel sick just thinking about it. I really hope my turn never comes.

Rest in peace, guys.

Dave

[Bytor]

...............

[Jerms]

Rest in peace. My condolences to the families and friends.

[orange dog]

............thoughts for those left behind.

The very nature of riding motorcycles means we are among the most switched on, alert and safe road users out there but sometimes it's just not enough

Just reading through this post in the last 5 mins has brought on so many emotions from sadness, anger, resignation etc. but has also pointed out how much we support each other as a group.

On ya's

[Bytor]

...............rip

[ruphus]

I was reading all the posts on this thread and felt so much mixed emotion.......

RIP

[VasalineWarrior]

.... RIP bros

[Hitcher]

The rider of the second motorcycle involved in this tragedy has also died.

As yet Police have not revealed the identities of any of the three riders.

[Note that it is site policy not to post names of people killed in road accidents until this information has been released through official channels. Please respect this.]

[VasalineWarrior]

[Note that it is site policy not to post names of people killed in road accidents until this information has been released through official channels. Please respect this.]

Chill dude. Dave doesnt visit here anymore

[Ixion]

NZPA have named (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4043390a11.html)them, after police release

[psyguy]

...................

[Biff]

.........................

[What?]

The van driver has now joined the deceased.

[Hitcher]

The NZ Herald has published this morning the names of those who died.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10437088

[Paul in NZ]

Its not just because we ride a Moto Guzzi - often 2 up thats made me sad and more than a bit angry about this - but reading that latest NZ Herald article has really brought a lump to my throat.....

What a bloody waste.... bastard driver....

[beyond]

It sux :sick: :sick: :( :(
.................................

[V4ME]

My condolences to all the famillies - I sit here with a tear in my eye and a lump in my throat - I ride this rode to Rotorua often. And the children... gee its tough.

Lord be with all the families

There was another fatal accident in TGA as well yesterday - thats five deaths in little more than 48 hours!! in this area. Please be careful.

[gijoe1313]

Read the Herald article this morning, made for a very cold, sobering moment of reflection as I donned my bike gear. Thought about my family and friends and how we all voluntarily choose to ride two wheels of freedom - with respect to the risks and incidents we've all seen/faced/been involved with.

I've only come into the biking scene a scant half a year and the road toll of those who choose to live life more exuberantly, saddens me (as most deaths that take people away before their time does).

I'll choose to keep riding on, because as Burt Munro said "You live more in five minutes than most jokers do in a lifetime".

RIP and condolences to all those affected in the aftermath.

[RantyDave]

At least it sounds like the kids are going to be alright. In a kind of "I watched my dad/grandad die in a drunken/no-seat-belt/horrific car crash" sort of way.

Oh, and the guy who lived a few hours was in his thirties and a dad. Two boys: 3 and 7 months. Which is completely different from me being in my thirties and having a girl of five and a boy of six months. Completely different.

Damn, this stuff makes you think.

Dave

[placidfemme]

It is really sad, read the article in todays paper, and was flooded with emotion. They were a part of the biking family, and even though I didn't know them, I still hurt for them and thier families.

I'm in two minds about how I feel about the driver dying, it sounds mean, but despite him dying justice is not served, not that it could be served anyway, nothing can bring back or dull the pain of loosing a loved one :(

[James Deuce]

Meh.

Road Deaths.

Perfectly acceptable in NZ. We do call them "accidents" after all.

[scumdog]

Meh.

Road Deaths.

Perfectly acceptable in NZ. We do call them "accidents" after all.


Not this boy - they're 'crashes' (and worse) to me.

At least the offending driver won't gat off with a slap on the wrist and then do it again.

Does make you think twice about getting out on the bike after these events - but see bottom line of my sig.

[Chisanga]

RIP riders.... I had a very thoughtful commute into the city today.

[skidz]

Yep, it's never nice to hear even with one going down, but this is sad. Thoughts go out to family and mates. Be careful out there and lets show the cagers we are out there and to look out for us.

[MyGSXF]

I'll choose to keep riding on, because as Burt Munro said "You live more in five minutes than most jokers do in a lifetime"


Me too.. my bike is my passion, the life force in my veins.. I can not 'stop' riding because of "what if's"..

I know the dangers I face out there, every time I choose to get on my bike. I think of my beautiful little boys, & the man I love.. I see their faces & my heart constricts. I know there is always the possibility, I may not come home.

I wear decent gear, & do rider training courses. I ride in an appropriate manner, most of the time, & I pray to the biker gods to keep me safe for another day.. as they have for the past 16 years.

I read threads & articles like this one & my heart breaks.. for those beautiful lives taken doing what they dearly loved.. for the little ones in the car, that will carry the scars of the accident for the rest of their lives.. & for the families & loved ones of those taken. The driver has gone to hell & his family will live there now too, because of the actions he chose!

One can only but sit here & ask... WHY????

R.I.P fellow bikers.. you will be missed!

Jen

[KATWYN]

The driver has gone to hell


Understandably our emotions run pretty darn high in these circumstances
...I just had a thought tho- what if the drivers family come in here
(for whatever reason...I mean, in a way tragically they have been indirectly connected to the motorcycling world)

And they read some of the things that we say.......

Just my opinion, doesnt mean i'm right.

[marty]

if that does happen, then maybe some justice will be served, and they will realise that they are not the only ones affected by this act of stupidity/recklessness/wastefulness/aggression, or whatever it was that happened that resulted in the car crossing the centreline.

i have little sympathy for the person at fault.

[Grahameeboy]

I tend to agree. Drunk drivers who kill should face an mandatory charge of manslaughter, upgradable to murder if the driver is recidivist.

Yep...no different to using a gun to kill someone........both are lethal weapons in the wrong hands......

[Grahameeboy]

if that does happen, then maybe some justice will be served, and they will realise that they are not the only ones affected by this act of stupidity/recklessness/wastefulness/aggression, or whatever it was that happened that resulted in the car crossing the centreline.

I am sure the drivers family realise this, but you know I don't believe in justice being the solution

I have little sympathy for the person at fault.

I have just a little smigine of sympathy for the driver as it is sad that he contemplated driving under the influence with 3 kids in the car..............

.........................

[MyGSXF]

I just had a thought tho- what if the drivers family come in here and they read some of the things that we say

I understand that that may happen KATWYN.. but I am with marty below.. I have little sympathy for the driver!!!



if that does happen, they will realise that they are not the only ones affected by this act of stupidity/recklessness/wastefulness/aggression, or whatever it was that happened that resulted in the car crossing the centreline.

i have little sympathy for the person at fault.

[Leong]

Very Sad..... RIP fellow riders and condolences to friends and family....

[HenryDorsetCase]

This is a kick in the balls:




Police appealed to the driver of a white car who was believed to have seen the crash but not stopped to come forward.



fucksakes!

[MotoGirl]

My heart goes out to the families of the people that the driver killed. I can't even fathom what this would be like (and God, I don't want to find out). The driver was just selfish and irresponsible. He obviously didn't place any value on the lives of those children, other motorists and his own when he hopped into the driver's seat.

The families of the motorcyclists aren't the only ones suffering. We should also consider the family of the driver - they will be having a hard time too. I'm not condoning his actions; I'm just suggesting that they must feel guilty about what he did as well as grieving his death.

My 2c.

[sunhuntin]

I understand that that may happen KATWYN.. but I am with marty below.. I have little sympathy for the driver!!!

agreed... im glad hes rotting. he would have got a fine and a slap on the wrist at best. i dont care whether his family come on here... if he was drinking with them, then they should have taken his keys and refused to let him take the kids. the obviously dont have any more respect for other people than the driver did.

also agree on the bike part. when i was without a bike for a few weeks [after accident and waiting for one to come in] i damn near went nuts. even having it in the shop for a day is enough to bug the hell out of me.
as someone else said... they died doing something they loved. and thats all any of us can hope for.

[KATWYN]

I have sympathy for the drivers family as well. They weren't the ones that were drunk behind the wheel, but as it was said they will probably live a hellish existance because of it. Why add to their pain.

Actually police say alcohol may have been a contributor

[eliot-ness]

According to the Herald report a police spokesman said a blood sample has been taken but the result won't be known for 10 days.
Maybe he was drunk and deserves to rot in hell.
But there again, maybe he wasn't and there was some other problem. Let's not curse the driver and his family for something that could have been a tragic accident until we know all the facts.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I have sympathy for the drivers family as well. They weren't the ones that were drunk behind the wheel, but as it was said they will probably live a hellish existance because of it. Why add to their pain.

But they could of stoped him from driving the car they could of taken his keys from him. Instead they put seat belts on inocent children and sent him on his way.

[scumdog]

But they could of stoped him from driving the car they could of taken his keys from him. Instead they put seat belts on inocent children and sent him on his way.

Harsh call dude (or do you know more than I?).

Could have been the case where 'uncle' was baby-sitting for half a day, ran out of booze and thought he'd head off to the pub for more and didn't want to leave the little ones behind?? I dunno but there's a zillion scenarios and we know none..

[peasea]

Let's not jump to any conclusions about how drunk the driver was and simply offer our condolences to all concerned. The police Serious Crash Unit will probably be at the sharp end of the investigation and they're pretty thorough. It'll all come out in the wash, probably sooner rather than later.

All the reasons to not drink before operating any kind of machinery, whether it has wheels, blades or a trigger.

RIP fellow bikers.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Harsh call dude (or do you know more than I?).

Could have been the case where 'uncle' was baby-sitting for half a day, ran out of booze and thought he'd head off to the pub for more and didn't want to leave the little ones behind?? I dunno but there's a zillion scenarios and we know none..

Fare call but who ever he was drinking with should shoulder some of the responsibility because they could of taken the keys.And didn't the papers say they where his grandkids.

[candor]

Let's not jump to any conclusions about how drunk the driver was and simply offer our condolences to all concerned. The police Serious Crash Unit will probably be at the sharp end of the investigation and they're pretty thorough. It'll all come out in the wash, probably sooner rather than later.


They are surprisingly not thorough and there is a 16% chance it will not all come out in the wash.

The Police claim they estimate 16% of fatal NZ crashes (ie 25% of fatalities) have drug intoxication as a main factor. Under half these drug related cases feature alcohol.

As Police and hospitals do not standardly test the crash deceased for alcohol (only three quarters of the time) or drugs (only once in a blue moon) there is a fair chance the cause will never come out in the wash.

If a Coroners inquest is permitted (Police may fight it as they currently are regarding my Mums crash death 3 years ago) it may come out whether the driver was drunk - or drugged (only on the off chance drug tests were ordered against usual protocols).

The acknowledged main cause of such crashes is alcohol &/or drugs (by all international experts), our serious crash unit does not automatically cover either of these bases via testing of deceaseds blood as that costs about a grand to check for ALL the 5 traffic risk drugs including alcohol ($250 EACH). So the cause may well remain a mystery.

Many many crashes are not gotten to the bottom of in NZ. If you are killed by a truck you will not get a fair investigation as - usually no breathalysing!

But whatever the cause we know this man was a suspect type to let drive your kids based on his past record. People need to be more realistic about their relatives achilles heels. And stop entrusting their kids to those who aren't up to it. Problem is - that DUI is rampant in some families, they're blase.

[MyGSXF]

didn't the papers say they where his grandkids.

one was his 5yr old son, & the other 2 were his granddaughters.. aged 7 & 8!

poor little buggas... :(

[Hitcher]

Let's not be overly judgemental in the absence of any information other than what's been reported in the media. We all know how accurate that can be at times (e.g. Japanese allegedly buying poodles that were really sheep...)

[MD]

'Not trying to go off topic but I noticed how differently the Herald treated this story to the Dompost. I think the Dom has it in for bikes. They never print any of my letters to the Ed with the word motorcycle in it- oh bikes, trash that letter. Whereas the herald today painted a sympathetic and comprehensive story on the bike victims AND made no doubt who was at fault. Monday's Dompost "2 motorcyclists died when they crossed the centreline. Police suspect alcohol and speed may have contributed' The wording clearly implied the riders were at fault. Tuesday's Dompost, no correction I notice.

[HenryDorsetCase]

'Not trying to go off topic but I noticed how differently the Herald treated this story to the Dompost. I think the Dom has it in for bikes. They never print any of my letters to the Ed with the word motorcycle in it- oh bikes, trash that letter. Whereas the herald today painted a sympathetic and comprehensive story on the bike victims AND made no doubt who was at fault. Monday's Dompost "2 motorcyclists died when they crossed the centreline. Police suspect alcohol and speed may have contributed' The wording clearly implied the riders were at fault. Tuesday's Dompost, no correction I notice.

complain to the press complaints authority EVERY time if it gets up your nose. They are there to stop inaccuracy and bias etc.... eventually they PCA) will get a bus ticket and slap the D Post editor a good one with it. Itll be damp, too.

[Str8 Jacket]

RIP Leon and friends, my thoughts are with your families. Your gonna be missed man!

[Patrick]

IActually police say alcohol may have been a contributor

But wait and see, it "WILL" have been....

[scumdog]

'Not trying to go off topic but I noticed how differently the Herald treated this story to the Dompost. I think the Dom has it in for bikes. They never print any of my letters to the Ed with the word motorcycle in it- oh bikes, trash that letter. Whereas the herald today painted a sympathetic and comprehensive story on the bike victims AND made no doubt who was at fault. Monday's Dompost "2 motorcyclists died when they crossed the centreline. Police suspect alcohol and speed may have contributed' The wording clearly implied the riders were at fault. Tuesday's Dompost, no correction I notice.

If this is true I would not use the DungPost as arse-wipe - even in dire emergency.

[Edbear]

If this is true I would not use the DungPost as arse-wipe - even in dire emergency.


What would you use...?

[scumdog]

What would you use...?

Nettles, Bush lawyer (remember that thread) and ANYTHING but the DungPost

Would rather scour in me leather chaps.

But hey let's keep on topic.

[Chickadee]

Such a waste of human life, condolenses to the families of the bikers.

I don't know if anyone know's the family with wee ones left behind, is it worth asking if they are accepting money for a trust for kids of the bikers left behind. I know they did that in the UK for a fellow workmate who died in a freak accident (he was relatively young & had a wee baby with his Mrs). The company set up a trust fund for the wee girl).

Anyway such a loss, makes you realise how mortal we all are out there, cages generally have the odds stacked in their favour. Feel bad for the little girls in the car and the families of the bikers. Such a waste.

[RT527]

As a truck driver Driving a Mack I have been in to Truck stops Mt Maunganui.

This is where Leon worked, He was an awesome mechanic and has worked on my truck A couple of times, but mostly he was the guy that made it happen.

I never new Leon Privately only as the foreman at truck stops.

RIP Leon and Many condolences to his wife and Children.
:bye: :innocent: :mellow:

Also Rip to the Two other riders who's lives were tragically taken.

[KATWYN]

But wait and see, it "WILL" have been....

I agree....but one thing i'm learning is to never jump the gun and assume
anything until all facts are presented.

As an example of jumping the gun, based on pretty damming evidence someone may have the smell of alcohol on their breath in the workplace - Do you jump the gun and fire them immediately? Or could it be, that they may possibly have diabetes which contributes to the alcohol smell on their breath? They may not be boozing or drunk at work afterall. (this example has nothing to do with the detection of alcohol and this incident btw)

Anyway back on topic

[Patrick]

[QUOTE=candor;1036641]
As Police and hospitals do not standardly test the crash deceased for alcohol (only three quarters of the time) or drugs (only once in a blue moon) there is a fair chance the cause will never come out in the wash.

Since when? ALL deceased involved in a motor vehicle crash are tested. Mind you, that is only in my 22 years experience...

If a Coroners inquest is permitted (Police may fight it as they currently are regarding my Mums crash death 3 years ago) it may come out whether the driver was drunk - or drugged (only on the off chance drug tests were ordered against usual protocols).

Drugs are more difficult..but again, can be done and is normally done by way of toxicology testing, post-mortem...don't understand why not in the case you are mentioning??

Many many crashes are not gotten to the bottom of in NZ. If you are killed by a truck you will not get a fair investigation as - usually no breathalysing!

Ummm... you're dead... (P/T)

Dunno where this stuff is coming from... if you are involved in a fatal crash, no matter what you drive, you will be tested - breath at the roadside if you are uninjured, bloods at the hospital if you are injured...

But whatever the cause we know this man was a suspect type to let drive your kids based on his past record. People need to be more realistic about their relatives achilles heels. And stop entrusting their kids to those who aren't up to it. Problem is - that DUI is rampant in some families, they're blase.

Fair call here... the family knows what he is like...

[Patrick]

I agree....but one thing i'm learning is to never jump the gun and assume
anything until all facts are presented.

As an example of jumping the gun, based on pretty damming evidence someone may have the smell of alcohol on their breath in the workplace - Do you jump the gun and fire them immediately? Or could it be, that they may possibly have diabetes which contributes to the alcohol smell on their breath? They may not be boozing or drunk at work afterall. (this example has nothing to do with the detection of alcohol and this incident btw)

Anyway back on topic

Fair call... I did that "ONCE"... but that is another thread:doh:

To have mentioned it in the first place to the media, must have been fairly obvious to the cops/ambo/fireys who attended...

[Blondini]

.................

[peasea]

They are surprisingly not thorough and there is a 16% chance it will not all come out in the wash.

The Police claim they estimate 16% of fatal NZ crashes (ie 25% of fatalities) have drug intoxication as a main factor. Under half these drug related cases feature alcohol.

As Police and hospitals do not standardly test the crash deceased for alcohol (only three quarters of the time) or drugs (only once in a blue moon) there is a fair chance the cause will never come out in the wash.

If a Coroners inquest is permitted (Police may fight it as they currently are regarding my Mums crash death 3 years ago) it may come out whether the driver was drunk - or drugged (only on the off chance drug tests were ordered against usual protocols).

The acknowledged main cause of such crashes is alcohol &/or drugs (by all international experts), our serious crash unit does not automatically cover either of these bases via testing of deceaseds blood as that costs about a grand to check for ALL the 5 traffic risk drugs including alcohol ($250 EACH). So the cause may well remain a mystery.

Many many crashes are not gotten to the bottom of in NZ. If you are killed by a truck you will not get a fair investigation as - usually no breathalysing!

But whatever the cause we know this man was a suspect type to let drive your kids based on his past record. People need to be more realistic about their relatives achilles heels. And stop entrusting their kids to those who aren't up to it. Problem is - that DUI is rampant in some families, they're blase.

....and you know all this coz?

Not the right thread for this, surely.

[scumdog]

[QUOTE=candor;1036641]

Many many crashes are not gotten to the bottom of in NZ. If you are killed by a truck you will not get a fair investigation as - usually no breathalysing!

Ummm... you're dead... (P/T)
Dunno where this stuff is coming from... if you are involved in a fatal crash, no matter what you drive, you will be tested - breath at the roadside if you are uninjured, bloods at the hospital if you are injured...

I'm with Patrick - you crash? - your'e breath screened, regardless of who/what caused crash.

[peasea]

[QUOTE=Patrick;1036935]

I'm with Patrick - you crash? - your'e breath screened, regardless of who/what caused crash.

Yup, that'll give a reasonably fair indication of who's at fault, surely? The likelihood of a sober driver cruising along and hitting a drunk have to be pretty slim, right?

[scumdog]

[QUOTE=scumdog;1037010]

Yup, that'll give a reasonably fair indication of who's at fault, surely? The likelihood of a sober driver cruising along and hitting a drunk have to be pretty slim, right?

VERY, ferkin VERY slim.

[spudchucka]

Let's not be overly judgemental in the absence of any information other than what's been reported in the media.
Yeah, that would be so un-kiwibikerish.

[Oakie]

This whole thing comes at a scary time for me ... being the same weekend that I got Mrs Oakie riding a bike on her own again after so long away. Can't not carry it through for the fear that 'something might happen' but hell ... it makes it scary.

RIP riders.

[orange dog]

I agree....but one thing i'm learning is to never jump the gun and assume
anything until all facts are presented.

As an example of jumping the gun, based on pretty damming evidence someone may have the smell of alcohol on their breath in the workplace - Do you jump the gun and fire them immediately? Or could it be, that they may possibly have diabetes which contributes to the alcohol smell on their breath? They may not be boozing or drunk at work afterall. (this example has nothing to do with the detection of alcohol and this incident btw)

Anyway back on topic

While I try to no longer pre-judge people or their actions since having kids, suspecting someone at work with alcohol on their breath and not jumping the gun is one thing, not pre-judging someone with alcohol on their breath after they have crossed into an on-coming lane causing multiple innocent deaths while not wearing a seatbelt and in charge of minors, starts getting a bit harder...
sorry, just going through the emotions (anger at the moment)

[festus]

agreed... im glad hes rotting. he would have got a fine and a slap on the wrist at best. i dont care whether his family come on here... if he was drinking with them, then they should have taken his keys and refused to let him take the kids. the obviously dont have any more respect for other people than the driver did.

I feel those comments are a bit harsh...........not proven yet if he was drunk, so some respect towards the drivers family at least...........

[chanceyy]

'Not trying to go off topic but I noticed how differently the Herald treated this story to the Dompost. I think the Dom has it in for bikes. They never print any of my letters to the Ed with the word motorcycle in it- oh bikes, trash that letter. Whereas the herald today painted a sympathetic and comprehensive story on the bike victims AND made no doubt who was at fault. Monday's Dompost "2 motorcyclists died when they crossed the centreline. Police suspect alcohol and speed may have contributed' The wording clearly implied the riders were at fault. Tuesday's Dompost, no correction I notice.


I noticed that too from the Dom .. the way it read it indicated that the bikes crossed the centreline, all other reports I read indicated the car crossed the centreline ..

[nudemetalz]

Mrs Nudie rides the Moto-Guzzi to work and back, plus some weekend riding as I can't ride at present.
This accident makes me nervous as hell for her safety in a way I've never felt before.
Anyone else here feel like that?

[What?]

Mrs Nudie rides the Moto-Guzzi to work and back, plus some weekend riding as I can't ride at present.
This accident makes me nervous as hell for her safety in a way I've never felt before.
Anyone else here feel like that?

I think of it thus - if the three bikers had been in a nice, safe little Daihatsu/Starlet/Micro/Whatever, they would be just as dead after a collision like that. Somewhere you have to draw a line between keeping yourself safe and having a life, because the extreme ends of each naturally detract from the other.

[Blackadda]

Latests news is that the Driver was a long term drunk driver who is/was currently disqualified?


Farker...................:angry:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

I feel those comments are a bit harsh...........not proven yet if he was drunk, so some respect towards the drivers family at least...........

Blackadda Latests news is that the Driver was a long term drunk driver who is/was currently disqualified?


Farker...................

If what blackadda is saying here is true then having respect for this guys family is not a option for me they murdered our fellow riders just as much as he did and as for putting those kids in the car is another thing

[Mom]

I have just read todays Herald article about this, very chilling reading indeed

"20-year habit

* Gordon Armstrong's first conviction for drink driving was in 1986, the next in 1997. He was convicted again in 2000 and 2004.

* In 2000, he was indefinitely disqualified from driving, meaning he could not renew his licence until he completed a mandatory disqualification period and drug and alcohol counselling.

* Although he finished the counselling, he did not renew his licence once the disqualification ended, and had driven without a licence since."

Just goes to show no amount of legislation/convictions or what have you will stop some people..........:angry:

[quickbuck]

I have just read todays Herald article about this, very chilling reading indeed

"20-year habit

* Gordon Armstrong's first conviction for drink driving was in 1986, the next in 1997. He was convicted again in 2000 and 2004.

* In 2000, he was indefinitely disqualified from driving, meaning he could not renew his licence until he completed a mandatory disqualification period and drug and alcohol counselling.

* Although he finished the counselling, he did not renew his licence once the disqualification ended, and had driven without a licence since."

Just goes to show no amount of legislation/convictions or what have you will stop some people..........:angry:


That leaves a bit of a sick feeling in my stomach.

I know it doesn't make it any easier for us to take (well in many cases, harder) the news about the motorcyclists.

Lets just hope this tragidy highlights the need for some changes in attitudes toward serial drunks, and the passing of our fellow riders isn't in vein.

[candor]

Just goes to show no amount of legislation/convictions or what have you will stop some people..........:angry:

Hmmm.... not really. The article also said Police said he'd never been jailed (as one might hope for after 4 convictions) so its not like he ever got any big knockback over his behaviour under our soft system

There really was nothing to deter him. My Mums killer had 7 convictions (drug driving prosecuted as "careless" and one drink driving and 2 driving disqual) - never jailed. LAW = JOKE since they downgraded road homicide to being 'non violent crime' Until DUI is taken seriously here in NZ we get what we ask for.

We have the lowest penalties for DUI road homicide full stop. Our max sentences are exactly 1/2 Ozzies.
Average time for a kill served 12 months - that would be a bad offender too.

Now if he'd been a petty thief (a threat to capitalism)our system may have set out to deter or punish him him with a bit of prison time but a potential road killer - no big deal.

As he'd completed the counseling he prolly woulda got his license back on request. If he lived in Victoria he'd have got his license back (only maybe) but also been forced to pay for and install an alcolock cognition on his car.

These people have s*** for brains and zero insight. Its not really choice given both that and the genetic component of alcoholism / addiction. For a few thousand several lives would have been saved by a bit of technology. But we're bush...

I hope the Antoinette who was killed is not this nurse I worked a few shifts with down South (don't remember her last name).

[riffer]

Sent to local MP:

Good day Paul,<o></o>
<o></o>
I read with dismay that the man who killed 3 motorcyclists when he crossed the centreline in Rotorua last weekend was a recidivist drunk driver on indefinite disqualification:<o></o>
<o></o>
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10437300<o></o>
<o></o>
On Saturday night I was walking home from an entertaining mystery murder night at friends house in <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Sheridan Cres</st1:address></st1:street> when a car came roaring around the <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Ward Street/Fergusson Drive</st1:address></st1:street> roundabout, drove straight up the kerb, the driver’s door swung open and the driver vomited over the road. He composed himself, and then drove on in a wobbly fashion.<o></o>
<o></o>
Clearly, drivers don’t care about drunk driving still.<o></o>
<o></o>
I am a motorcyclist (have been for 26 years) and a voter in your electorate (I live in <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">Melrose Street</st1:address></st1:street>). Every Thursday night we listen to cars racing up <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">McLean Street</st1:address></st1:street>. Our cat was killed last year by one of them. And I am certain there’s alcohol involved with some of these people too. I have four children. The last thing I want is for one of these idiots to take me out.<o></o>
<o></o>
Yet the government seems hell bent on pursuing drivers who exceed the speed limits by a small margin on otherwise safe roads. The police regularly target the passing lanes on SH2 and <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">River Road</st1:address></st1:street> (although on <st1:street w:st="on"><st1:address w:st="on">River Road</st1:address></st1:street> that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but that’s another story).<o></o>
<o></o>
Yet alcohol seems to go unnoticed (as far as I can see).<o></o>
<o></o>
What plans do the government have to deal with drivers who continue to drive drunk while disqualified?<o></o>
<o></o>
My opinion:. A motorist who kills while under the influence of alcohol or drugs should be charged with vehicular manslaughter. If there’s no such charge, I suggest you do something about it. There would be a huge amount of support for a law to deal with this. I find it abhorrent that we continue to give these offenders light sentences for what amounts to killing someone with a lethal weapon.<o></o>
<o></o>
Yet we continue to call them “accidents”. There’s nothing accidental about it. Time to call them what they are: killings<o></o>.
<o></o>
Thanks for your time. I’m happy to discuss this whenever you like.<o></o>
<o>
</o>

[festus]

Blackadda Latests news is that the Driver was a long term drunk driver who is/was currently disqualified?


Farker...................

If what blackadda is saying here is true then having respect for this guys family is not a option for me they murdered our fellow riders just as much as he did and as for putting those kids in the car is another thing


What a load of bullshit dude!. The guy behind the wheel killed the motorcyclists, not his family. He made the decision to get behind the wheel drunk, and drive, not his family.
The family should have stopped him doing this?... how do we know what his family have done to stop him doing this shit, maybe they tried and failed, some people cannot be helped, it appears this guy was one of them.

To blame and condem his family is fuckin pretty shallow dude!!! Leave them out of it, they have enough to deal with now after this shit!.....

[Mrs Busa Pete]

What a load of bullshit dude!. The guy behind the wheel killed the motorcyclists, not his family. He made the decision to get behind the wheel drunk, and drive, not his family.
The family should have stopped him doing this?... how do we know what his family have done to stop him doing this shit, maybe they tried and failed, some people cannot be helped, it appears this guy was one of them.

To blame and condemn his family is fuckin pretty shallow dude!!! Leave them out of it, they have enough to deal with now after this shit!.....

Well first of this Mrs busa Pete so sorry for not making that clear.

But you are entitled to your option as am i which will not change. The power of family is very strong should they choose to use this power which this family obviously choose not to use re allowing there own children to be put in that car my god they could not respect there own kids so that must say a lot for them. Should i be proven wrong i would be first in line to apologize but dollars to donuts I'm not. If that makes me shallow so be it.

[Ixion]

Gordon Armstrong's first conviction for drink driving was in 1986, the next in 1997. He was convicted again in 2000 and 2004.* In 2000, he was indefinitely disqualified from driving, meaning he could not renew his licence until he completed a mandatory disqualification period and drug and alcohol counselling.
* Although he finished the counselling, he did not renew his licence once the disqualification ended, and had driven without a licence since.




So, in 2000 , as a recidivist drunk driver he was "indefinately" disqualified (though indefinately does not seem to mean indefinately). Yet in 2004 , with that history, we was convicted again. And received what punishment?

[peasea]

I can't say I'm surprised to discover this guy was a repeat drunk driver but neither does it make me feel any better, more the opposite actually. There's a lot of anger out there too, quite justified I'd say, and some of it aimed at the family who didn't stop him from driving. They will be paying a price, for sure, but I can't help wondering if there are any others like him within that same family. Maybe they're all drunks, hence the apathy, I don't know.

Something else I don't know is how come the clown was still walking the streets? Surely 'three strikes/you're out' should have applied. We might still have our friends if it had. How do these judges sleep at night?

[festus]

Well first of this Mrs busa Pete so sorry for not making that clear.

But you are entitled to your option as am i which will not change. The power of family is very strong should they choose to use this power which this family obviously choose not to use re allowing there own children to be put in that car my god they could not respect there own kids so that must say a lot for them. Should i be proven wrong i would be first in line to apologize but dollars to donuts I'm not. If that makes me shallow so be it.

Like all here, I'm sure I wouldn't let my children be driven by a drunk driver. I'm sure this would have been the case too with this family (i'd hope). I'd put money on it the family knew nothing of the caregiver driving the kids around drunk. So where does the blame lie here? with the drunk driver !. Family are innocent victims here I reckon.........

[KATWYN]

I must have missed some news or summit?? where does it say the
family were with him and put the kids in the car etc??? That makes me cringe
a bit if they knew......

Also, we all know how cunning and sneaky alcoholics can be with their
secret boozing. It can be hard to tell sometimes.

[marty]

this story has been told again and again - recidivist diaqualified/drunk driver kills innocents.

unfortunately, calling for zero tolerance to this kind of driving ignores the obvious - the only way to carry out this level of policing is to, well, have more cops on the road. triple the number of booze bus check points. setting up stings at hotels waiting for drunks to drive. waiting outside recidivist drunks houses waiting for them to drive. you get the picture. there's no point 'having a chat' to these guys prior to them driving (haven't committed an offence yet) so they have to get as far as moving the car.

when the 3 times the current number of traffic cops are carrying out this zero tolerance regime, what do you think they'll be doing in their downtime?

pinging speeders for 111km/h.

be careful what you wish for.

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Like all here, I'm sure I wouldn't let my children be driven by a drunk driver. I'm sure this would have been the case too with this family (i'd hope). I'd put money on it the family knew nothing of the caregiver driving the kids around drunk. So where does the blame lie here? with the drunk driver !. Family are innocent victims here I reckon.........

So would you put money on the fact that the family didn't know about the previous drink driving convictions and the fact that he did not have a valid licence. Because if that is the case then i would have to agree with you.

[peasea]

the only way to carry out this level of policing is to, well, have more cops on the road. triple the number of booze bus check points. setting up stings at hotels waiting for drunks to drive. waiting outside recidivist drunks houses waiting for them to drive. you get the picture. there's no point 'having a chat' to these guys prior to them driving (haven't committed an offence yet) so they have to get as far as moving the car.


I wonder if anyone has crunched the dollar numbers and worked out the cost of building/operating more prisons per annum versus the cash cost of the damage these people cause? Then, when you add the social cost it's a no-brainer. However, I still scratch my head and wonder if locking drunks up is the answer and if it's not, what is? Right now I can't see any alternative.

[marty]

4 dui's over 20 years, and an indefinate disqual is not that uncommon - in fact, in the bigger picture, it's not even that serious - there are liiterally hundereds of these people driving around.

it is an embedded attitude in many communities - in fact, it's not that different to the attitude held by many in here in regard to speeding/wheelies/misbehaving on public roads etc - it's just that the attitude in circles such as this person obviously moved, turns a blind eye to disqualified, unlicenced, drink driving.

now i'm all for locking these losers up, but i've been there before, and identifying the potential killers is virtually impossible - without running a guantanamo-type operation, i just can't see how it would happen

[Paul in NZ]

now i'm all for locking these losers up, but i've been there before, and identifying the potential killers is virtually impossible - without running a guantanamo-type operation, i just can't see how it would happen

I go back to my proposal in an earlier thread. make much bigger sentences availiable to the judges and previous history becomes a multiplier. Cause an accident and you are proven DIC = penalty X, cause the same accident proven DIC with a history of similar acts and penalty = X2 right up to life...

Everyone deserves a second chance - but a third, 4th etc and then they fuck up and kill someone? Kill 3 people?? No way...

[candor]

At the risk of repeating myself - ignition alcolocks work very well elsewhere.
Cheaper than Police and prisons. Also there are anklets now that can be worn by DUI offenders that detect alcohol. Would you drink if it meant a night or 30 in prison?

[marty]

paul, they don't even send someone who kills in cold blood with a firearm to prison for life - they've got a long way to go before vehicle killings rate up there.

as a start, the vehicle owner should be responsible for the driver. Party to the offence.

i've just had an idea. driver's licence is like a swipe card - you have to swipe it to activate the pump. WOF/rego/RUC information is carried on this card as well.

[MyGSXF]

Having just got in & read that latest newspaper article.. I am left feeling utterly chilled to the bone & speechless... :spudwhat:

My god.. those poor poor families... :weep:

[Matt_TG]

Having just got in & read that latest newspaper article.. I am left feeling utterly chilled to the bone & speechless... :spudwhat:

My god.. those poor poor families... :weep:


My feelings too :(

[Paul in NZ]

paul, they don't even send someone who kills in cold blood with a firearm to prison for life - they've got a long way to go before vehicle killings rate up there.

Well you know what I think about that...

I mean UP to life - ie open ended sentence so the punishment can suit the open ended stupidity of certain people...

Look - I don't like getting tickets or silly alcohol limits or all the other little irritants but I have some idea of what you folks see every day so i can accept it but really - some people..

[sunhuntin]

im with mrs busa pete... and i stand by what i said. what im feeling now, is what i would be feeling if these bikers were people i knew. to take a life, means you should lose your own. this fucktard has paid the ultimate price, and every single one of us in this thread is a little safer because of it. he would have got another fine, another rehab course and gone a bit longer with no license. then he would have been back behind the wheel, and someone else could have been killed by him.

i have no pity for his family... i dont know whether he was with them or alone, or what he was doing with those kids. but either way, someone should have stepped in and prevented this from happening. knock the prick senseless if need be... the lives of 3 kids and 3 bikers is worth a shit load more than the next bottle of booze.

if some member of my own family did this exact same thing, i would not want the pity of strangers. hes a murderer, plain and simple, and i would seek to distance myself from their name as best as possible.

[placidfemme]

and every single one of us in this thread is a little safer because of it.

sad but true

[Chrislost]

this story has been told again and again - recidivist diaqualified/drunk driver kills innocents.

unfortunately, calling for zero tolerance to this kind of driving ignores the obvious - the only way to carry out this level of policing is to, well, have more cops on the road. triple the number of booze bus check points. setting up stings at hotels waiting for drunks to drive. waiting outside recidivist drunks houses waiting for them to drive. you get the picture. there's no point 'having a chat' to these guys prior to them driving (haven't committed an offence yet) so they have to get as far as moving the car.

when the 3 times the current number of traffic cops are carrying out this zero tolerance regime, what do you think they'll be doing in their downtime?

pinging speeders for 111km/h.

be careful what you wish for.

actually if they spent more time looking for drunk drivers and less time sitting around giving speeding tickets they probably could easily half the number of drunks on the roads.
be simple as to put a permant booze bus somewhere(like a road toll but you pay nothign if ur all good)

[marty]

unfortunately the public has deemed (through parliament and Local Authorities) a spread of enforcement across all sectors - speeding, drink driving, education etc, so unless there is a huge shift in demand, or increase in enforcement numbers, that isn't going to happen.

and a permanent booze bus check point? now THERE'S a well thought out enforcement measure. it would be as effective as deterring drink driving as a speed camera is for speeding on Dominion Rd.

[socialites]

unfortunately the public has deemed (through parliament and Local Authorities) a spread of enforcement across all sectors - speeding, drink driving, education etc, so unless there is a huge shift in demand, or increase in enforcement numbers, that isn't going to happen.

and a permanent booze bus check point? now THERE'S a well thought out enforcement measure. it would be as effective as deterring drink driving as a speed camera is for speeding on Dominion Rd.

Less pointless speeding fines(111km/hr) and more drunk driving stings. Drunk driver kills inocent person/s should equal Death Sentence.

[KATWYN]

i have no pity for his family... i dont know whether he was with them or alone, or what he was doing with those kids. but either way, someone should have stepped in and prevented this from happening. knock the prick senseless if need be...

In a perfect world, it's easier said than done.

Ok, so you knock em senseless this time around...then what do you do for the other 23 hours and 15 minutes of their day? Short of shackling them to a lampost or fence post or whatever, hiding the keys, disabling their vehicles what would you suggest a family member needs to do to control & restrain these drunks from getting behind the wheel of A vehicle?

[yungatart]

My opinion, FWIW...leave the drunk driver's family out of this!
My ex-husband had 16 convictions for drunk driving...up until the time I left him (more since, plus jail time). I had not a shit show in hell of stopping him from driving, yeah, I could hide the keys etc etc - and get the bash for my troubles.
When I was at work I had no control over wether he decided to put our kids in the car and go down to his local to get trollied.
Some of you are acting like his family quite happily put the kids in the car with a drunk - how the hell do you know if they were even there at the time?

BTW - ex still regularly drives drunk! His convictions go back to 1976!

[Mrs Busa Pete]

In a perfect world, it's easier said than done.

Ok, so you knock em senseless this time around...then what do you do for the other 23 hours and 15 minutes of their day? Short of shackling them to a lampost or fence post or whatever, hiding the keys, disabling their vehicles what would you suggest a family member needs to do to control & restrain these drunks from getting behind the wheel of A vehicle?

Ring the bloody cops if you cant get through dail 111.

[Patrick]

[QUOTE=scumdog;1037010]

Yup, that'll give a reasonably fair indication of who's at fault, surely? The likelihood of a sober driver cruising along and hitting a drunk have to be pretty slim, right?

Slim... but have struck it... North Shore, sober driver U turned in front of drunk... Good way to catch a drunk tho...

[Ixion]

Well, when it's a contest between drunkenness and native stupidity, it's a toss up which will win.

[Kendog]

My opinion, FWIW...leave the drunk driver's family out of this!
My ex-husband had 16 convictions for drunk driving...up until the time I left him (more since, plus jail time). I had not a shit show in hell of stopping him from driving, yeah, I could hide the keys etc etc - and get the bash for my troubles.
When I was at work I had no control over wether he decided to put our kids in the car and go down to his local to get trollied.
Some of you are acting like his family quite happily put the kids in the car with a drunk - how the hell do you know if they were even there at the time?

BTW - ex still regularly drives drunk! His convictions go back to 1976!

That's a sad story, good on ya for fronting up and posting it.

But, if he killed three bikers (or your kids/any innocent person) when you were together, would you not feel any responsibility?

[Patrick]

actually if they spent more time looking for drunk drivers and less time sitting around giving speeding tickets they probably could easily half the number of drunks on the roads.
be simple as to put a permant booze bus somewhere(like a road toll but you pay nothign if ur all good)

Makes it hard to get drink drivers when the first one caught at the small town checkpoint rings the pub and tells the publican, who in turn tells the punters were the booze bus is so they can avoid it...

Anyone stopped for any reason (don't like the look of him/her; shes pretty;:shutup: weaving driver; no lights; speeding whatever...) these days/nights will be routinely tested.

[peasea]

Slim... but have struck it... North Shore, sober driver U turned in front of drunk... Good way to catch a drunk tho...


I'd wager that wouldn't happen too often in a lifetime. You must have laughed your arse off.

[yungatart]

That's a sad story, good on ya for fronting up and posting it.

But, if he killed three bikers (or your kids/any innocent person) when you were together, would you not feel any responsibility?

I would have felt gutted, absolutely gutted. Responsible, no!
There is nothing I could have done to prevent him driving - or drinking, either, for that matter. Believe me, I tried, on both counts, and failed misserably. Just because I married him does not mean I was responsible for his behaviour, as an adult, he made his own choices and had to wear the consequences of them....just like our driver in this incident.
There is no way that his family can be held responsible for his actions - especially when we don't know the facts!

[peasea]

There is nothing I could have done to prevent him driving - or drinking, either, for that matter.

Been there, done that, even copped a bit of biffo for trying to prevent a drunk from driving, man, they get shitty-as. You get the whole "I'll decide when I can't drive" blah blah and when they're in that state you can't reason with them. Sure, you can make the phone call but tempus fugit.............

[Mom]

i have no pity for his family... i dont know whether he was with them or alone, or what he was doing with those kids. but either way, someone should have stepped in and prevented this from happening

A person with a record like this is not just like you and I my friend. This man obviously had a serious problem with alcohol, probably other things as well, things that we are hearing more and more about these days. You can not condemn his family for not stopping him, as you have no idea the what the circumstances were at the time he put those kiddies in his car. Yes I have read the reports that witnesses say he had been drinking before you bring that to my attention. As Marty has already pointed out there is an element that is very much alive and well in our society that do not have the same values regarding drink driving or anything else for that matter as you and I do.

As a person that was raised by an alcoholic, I can tell you that no matter what you do or say that person will not change their behaviour unless they want to, it is an illness.

That being said, I feel anger and deeply saddened about what happened, my heartfelt sympathy goes out to the families and friends of three bikers that were wiped out by this dickheads actions. I weep for the children that were involved in such an horrific incident, and my sympathies must also go to the family and friends of the *insert the word/s of your choice* that was responsible.

[Mom]

My opinion, FWIW...leave the drunk driver's family out of this!
My ex-husband had 16 convictions for drunk driving...up until the time I left him (more since, plus jail time). I had not a shit show in hell of stopping him from driving, yeah, I could hide the keys etc etc - and get the bash for my troubles.
When I was at work I had no control over wether he decided to put our kids in the car and go down to his local to get trollied.
Some of you are acting like his family quite happily put the kids in the car with a drunk - how the hell do you know if they were even there at the time?

BTW - ex still regularly drives drunk! His convictions go back to 1976!


Thank you for this.........sums up what I was trying to say.......

[bl4de]

Understandably our emotions run pretty darn high in these circumstances
...I just had a thought tho- what if the drivers family come in here
(for whatever reason...I mean, in a way tragically they have been indirectly connected to the motorcycling world)

And they read some of the things that we say.......

Just my opinion, doesnt mean i'm right.

Lets hope they do! You cant tell me his family had no idear of his history, And why would you let your children be taken in a car with someone who had no right to be on the road! Someone out there had a chance to tell this tosser put the keys down.

[candor]

How many times were these kids transported by a drunk and how many more times will they be before the age of 15. Has anyone cared to ask - will anyone? A bit of judgment and a few disapproving looks round the community then it'll be business as usual - whatever that means. These are STILL at risk kids not the smacked ones, I'd bet. Have been for awhile as one was his kid and it said he has never desisted from driving. Being a drunk not sobre at it I imagine either.

The fatherless 5 year old has had how many scary rides? This family is not even in the phone book (I looked for an address to send them all something), which may actually show where the money goes. The biker victims families all have phones.

[Hitcher]

This family is not even in the phone book (I looked for an address to send them all something), which may actually show where the money goes. The biker victims families all have phones.

Don't read too much into that. I know people who are either not in the phonebook because they're deliberately unlisted, listed under a partner's or an assumed name, or only use a cellphone. There are probably other reasons too why a family that may have a phone connected to their primary residence that is not listed in a phone directory. I don't think that that makes them lesser people.

[Little Miss Trouble]

This family is not even in the phone book (I looked for an address to send them all something), which may actually show where the money goes. The biker victims families all have phones.

Just because the family of this person choose not to have their phone number and address listed where any odd person can find it you assume they spend all their money on alcohol? because they share the same last name they must all be alcoholics?? Gee if were gonna look at it that way that probably makes me one too.

You won't find me listed anywhere either, I changed my cell number last year to get away from random abuse from people I've chosen to distance myself from, only very close friends know where I live too. Its a personal choice and not one you should go picking bones over when you know nothing about the people who made said choice.:nono:
Rant over.

[mark247]

Less pointless speeding fines(111km/hr)

Ok, if a policeman pulls a guy over on a tuesday afternoon at 2pm for doing 111kmh, its very likely the guy was just speeding and is sober. But dont you think pulling over a car 8am on a sunday morning for a doing 111kmh is going to more likely have a drunk driver in it than pulling a car over randomly at 100kmh? Get my point? Well i get my own point, lol.

[RT527]

So, in 2000 , as a recidivist drunk driver he was "indefinately" disqualified (though indefinately does not seem to mean indefinately). Yet in 2004 , with that history, we was convicted again. And received what punishment?



Well , all I can say is I think the 3 who died and the offenders family have been let down by one group of people and that would be the ones who are too busy trying to tell us how to lead our lives, If we had our priority's right then a drunk driver on his 2nd conviction would not only spend time inside , but also loose the family car by way of auction with the money being put back into supplying more enforcement resources, yes I know hell just go and buy another car when he gets out, or someone else will buy/steal one for him, i don't know any easy answers but i do know that if you are done hard by the law early enough then the ones who aren't real bad buggers will be less likely to offend again, it works elsewhere in the world so why cant it work here.

[candor]

Just because the family of this person choose not to have their phone number and address listed where any odd person can find it you assume they spend all their money on alcohol? because they share the same last name they must all be alcoholics?? Gee if were gonna look at it that way that probably makes me one too.... Its a personal choice and not one you should go picking bones over when you know nothing about the people who made said choice.:nono:
Rant over.

Yep Ok - point taken from both of you. That was random speculation. But I still think all is not well with that family to have 2 lots of kids in that car with that particular guy. That was my main point. No-one I know (and that have high regard for - I should qualify that) would not know or ensure that their kids were with responsible adults at all times. Most parents I know are protective like that, and if they aren't then I don't consider that OK. I consider it slack, call me judgmental :sunny:

Hell - I won't leave my dog to be babysat with people who could leave gates open etc, and this is the same principle here. As others said - people had to know his record and his history (so where is the common sense) and if they didn't know him that well then WTH was he doing transporting their kids?

I know he was sick and diminished responsibility. And that a lot of people think its ok to turn a blind eye - even where their kids are involved. Its just sad, because too often the kids aren't lucky. Theres evidence too that people let young boys ride with impaired drivers more often too. They get hurt by them more.

[peasea]

Don't read too much into that. I know people who are either not in the phonebook because they're deliberately unlisted, listed under a partner's or an assumed name, or only use a cellphone. There are probably other reasons too why a family that may have a phone connected to their primary residence that is not listed in a phone directory. I don't think that that makes them lesser people.

I haven't been in the book for years. You can make that choice; not only unlisted (not in the book but available through directories) but I'm also 'private and confidential'. Telecom can be charged if they reveal my number or address. It only takes a phone call.

[sunhuntin]

Yep Ok - point taken from both of you. That was random speculation. But I still think all is not well with that family to have 2 lots of kids in that car with that particular guy. That was my main point. No-one I know (and that have high regard for - I should qualify that) would not know or ensure that their kids were with responsible adults at all times. Most parents I know are protective like that, and if they aren't then I don't consider that OK. I consider it slack, call me judgmental :sunny:

Hell - I won't leave my dog to be babysat with people who could leave gates open etc, and this is the same principle here. As others said - people had to know his record and his history (so where is the common sense) and if they didn't know him that well then WTH was he doing transporting their kids?

I know he was sick and diminished responsibility. And that a lot of people think its ok to turn a blind eye - even where their kids are involved. Its just sad, because too often the kids aren't lucky. Theres evidence too that people let young boys ride with impaired drivers more often too. They get hurt by them more.

we're not in the book either, for good reason.

while i dont and wont have kids, i know damn sure if i ever did have any, i wouldnt let them near anyone like the jerk off who caused this.
its like the drunk father who fell asleep at the gas station... following weeks paper screams that hes "a good father" [or so his wife says]
there needs to be something done, and soon. have cops stationed at every bar. car keys get handed in as you enter, and you get a slip of paper with numbers on [like a locker combination] end of the night, you bring the slip to the bar, cops breath test you. under, you get your keys. over, you get a lift home. [cops also use their own judgement, as alcohol affects people different. what may be legal for you may be well well over for me.] keys go with the cops, who either give them to you at home, of you have to pick up from the station the next day.
the downside of this, is bars will have to have parking where remaining vehicles can be locked in.

[Horney1]

I'm with Katwyn, Youngtart and others defending sensibility. We don't know the actual circumstances in which the driver left wherever he left from or who was there and what was done to prevent him driving. I've also tried to deal with the odd alcoholic over the years and know that they can be very determined, cunning and very aggressive. The family has gone through a terrible time as have the family and friends of the riders. Negative and accussative talking won't help anyone. Get facts then play the blame game. Although, I'm not over there reading the papers, I don't think we even know if he was over the limit or not do we? It may have been something as simple as a kid kicking the steering wheel or the driver (being paranoid with no licence) looking over his shoulder for a cop???

[peasea]

we're not in the book either, for good reason.

while i dont and wont have kids, i know damn sure if i ever did have any, i wouldnt let them near anyone like the jerk off who caused this.
its like the drunk father who fell asleep at the gas station... following weeks paper screams that hes "a good father" [or so his wife says]
there needs to be something done, and soon. have cops stationed at every bar. car keys get handed in as you enter, and you get a slip of paper with numbers on [like a locker combination] end of the night, you bring the slip to the bar, cops breath test you. under, you get your keys. over, you get a lift home. [cops also use their own judgement, as alcohol affects people different. what may be legal for you may be well well over for me.] keys go with the cops, who either give them to you at home, of you have to pick up from the station the next day.
the downside of this, is bars will have to have parking where remaining vehicles can be locked in.

Actually, you don't need the cops. The technology is there to prevent a lot of this. Put the key in the ignition (car or bike) state your name into a wee screen (security and sobriety all sussed in one) engine fires up and you're off. Wrong voice pattern/ too much booze? You go nowhere.

[sunhuntin]

Actually, you don't need the cops. The technology is there to prevent a lot of this. Put the key in the ignition (car or bike) state your name into a wee screen (security and sobriety all sussed in one) engine fires up and you're off. Wrong voice pattern/ too much booze? You go nowhere.

how avaliable is this, and whats the cost?
i doubt that many alcoholics would be willing or able to afford to have it installed. same with many other lower end families. [my parents wouldnt be able to afford it, and we are not quite gutter level yet]
with cops being funded by the tax payer, it would be easier. unless they started selling cars already fitted with the technolgy, but there would still be many older cars without it.

other than the cost, it sounds like a damn good idea.. two or more birds with one stone. would cut car theft right down to nearly nil.

[peasea]

how avaliable is this, and whats the cost?
i doubt that many alcoholics would be willing or able to afford to have it installed. same with many other lower end families. [my parents wouldnt be able to afford it, and we are not quite gutter level yet]
with cops being funded by the tax payer, it would be easier. unless they started selling cars already fitted with the technolgy, but there would still be many older cars without it.

other than the cost, it sounds like a damn good idea.. two or more birds with one stone. would cut car theft right down to nearly nil.

I was thinking out loud. The technology IS there it just isn't fitted to vehicles. If a breathylizer can beep when you exceed a certain level then it can operate a cut-out switch. Voice patterns aren't that hard to record and load into any vehicle's on-board computer. You can put voice instructions into cell phones for crying out loud. If the booze/security device were fitted at the time of vehicle construction the cost would be very little on the scale of things, I'm sure. Like putting insulation in an old house, it's a mish, but when you're building it... piece of cake.

[Little Miss Trouble]

Yep Ok - point taken from both of you. That was random speculation. But I still think all is not well with that family to have 2 lots of kids in that car with that particular guy. That was my main point. No-one I know (and that have high regard for - I should qualify that) would not know or ensure that their kids were with responsible adults at all times. Most parents I know are protective like that, and if they aren't then I don't consider that OK. I consider it slack, call me judgmental :sunny:

Hell - I won't leave my dog to be babysat with people who could leave gates open etc, and this is the same principle here. As others said - people had to know his record and his history (so where is the common sense) and if they didn't know him that well then WTH was he doing transporting their kids?


I understand completely, If I should one day have kids I know I'll be scarily protective but my point was that we don't know the full story and condeming the family when we may never know is hurtful and nasty. Me, I send them my wishes and hopes that the children recover quickly.
I also hope that this terrible "accident" (-read murder) causes some to take a good long hard look at their actions (probably not) so with that failing I guess my vote is for tougher penaltys and some initiatives like peasea and sunhuntin have suggested:sunny:

[doc]

I'm with Katwyn, Youngtart and others defending sensibility. We don't know the actual circumstances in which the driver left wherever he left from or who was there and what was done to prevent him driving. I've also tried to deal with the odd alcoholic over the years and know that they can be very determined, cunning and very aggressive. The family has gone through a terrible time as have the family and friends of the riders. Negative and accussative talking won't help anyone. Get facts then play the blame game. Although, I'm not over there reading the papers, I don't think we even know if he was over the limit or not do we? It may have been something as simple as a kid kicking the steering wheel or the driver (being paranoid with no licence) looking over his shoulder for a cop???

This is getting like "Talk Back Radio" everyone is putting in an opinion but no one is listening, except to the last comment. People are just venting off. Go and watch TV or something. Until the truth comes out, when only those who have a connection are still interested.

[sunhuntin]

I was thinking out loud. The technology IS there it just isn't fitted to vehicles. If a breathylizer can beep when you exceed a certain level then it can operate a cut-out switch. Voice patterns aren't that hard to record and load into any vehicle's on-board computer. You can put voice instructions into cell phones for crying out loud. If the booze/security device were fitted at the time of vehicle construction the cost would be very little on the scale of things, I'm sure. Like putting insulation in an old house, it's a mish, but when you're building it... piece of cake.

yehhh, im a major techno phobe. takes me all day to work out a basic cell phone, never mind anything else.

sounds like a damn good plan though, and could be implemented with all vehicles, including push bikes.

[krash69]

well do we no any details of services for our fallen ridders as yet?

and im thinking of going to these even though i didnt no them.....just becoz of this dam mistake that will neva make sense to any of us......

all we can do is go on and hope this may put a drunk driver off from getting behind the wheel.....well at least one

[sunhuntin]

well do we no any details of services for our fallen ridders as yet?

and im thinking of going to these even though i didnt no them.....just becoz of this dam mistake that will neva make sense to any of us......



thats a good point. if they were local, services should be noted in the local papers.

[peasea]

thats a good point. if they were local, services should be noted in the local papers.

If someone gets the service details please post them. Even a card or a few flowers from fellow bikers (we all know each other in one sense, at least) would be well recieved, I'm sure. Some genuine solidarity here would be great.

[Smokin Joe]

Good idea, I would probably be a starter, a few guys on bikes to turn up to the funerals as a mark of respect and as representatives of all those who have been having their say on this thread would be a good idea.

Cheers,

Smokin

[peasea]

Good idea, I would probably be a starter, a few guys on bikes to turn up to the funerals as a mark of respect and as representatives of all those who have been having their say on this thread would be a good idea.

Cheers,

Smokin

I can't get away very often but I'll certainly send something if I can get an address and a date. You have my word.

[raster]

Thanks Yungatart, we went through the "Why didn't the family do something" emotion, thanks for putting it into perspective for us.

To the family and friends of all those affected, our heartfelt condolences (including the car drivers).
From Mrs Raster and I.

I would be interested to know when services are.

[jafar]

I have read some of the posting in here to do with giving the police even MORE power to stop carnage such as this, what are you thinking?? The police can't stop it any more than they can stop someone doing a wheelie !
The problem is with OUR ATTITUDE as a society. While it is still seen as acceptable to drive to the pub & drive home again nothing will change.

[krash69]

Good idea, I would probably be a starter, a few guys on bikes to turn up to the funerals as a mark of respect and as representatives of all those who have been having their say on this thread would be a good idea.

Cheers,

Smokin

im so in as we need to do this for the support of those families and kids.......i most diffinitly bean in on my bike to pay respects........even though i never meat these fallen ridders.........

so lets see if we can have a good show up of bikes for these ones who are suffering at this time.......