Spying? What spying?

[Hitcher]

I am incredibly annoyed about the media coverage of the so-called “infiltration” by Solid Energy of a group of activists hell-bent on publicity for their “cause” and disruption at any cost.

The media seems to bracket greenies in the same warm fuzzy category as mothers, apple pies, bunny rabbits and Christmas. Peace on earth, goodwill to people. If only that were true.

Greenpeace has done a great job of promoting itself, whatever itself is, around a whole bunch of environmental causes that it has used for photo
opportunities. Every “celebrity” in Christendom appears to be latched onto adopting African orphans or pleading for land rights for gay whales. The media soaks it all up unquestioningly and the “truth” unfortunately is the victim.

Greenpeace annoys me, particularly by the way it canvasses for “members” but provides “members” with no means of contributing to that “organisation’s” agenda for action. One doesn’t “join” Greenpeace. One makes a donation. Big difference. Greenpeace just wants their money.

I expect accountability from organisations of which I am a member. Organisations like Greenpeace, through their actions, show that they are accountable to nobody other than a handful of rabble-rousers who have managed to get themselves onto an environmental gravy train. Consequently they deserve little respect.

Many so-called “lobby groups” have no membership or support whatsoever. They comprise maybe one or two people, a catchy acronym, a word processor and a mailing list. Irritatingly media never ask them about their membership or mandate. A classic example of such one-person “organisations” is SHAC – the State Housing Action Coalition. It comprises one “member”, its president and public spokesperson Peter Hughes, who doesn’t even live in a state house. The countless activist “groups” so opposed to the eradication of the painted apple moth from western Auckland were also largely one-person headline seekers. Where’s the Sunday Star Times when there is real scandal to be exposed?

Returning to Solid Energy, this company has been tormented for some time by a group of activist vandals, representative of nobody, that has been responsible for trespass, damage to property and threats to the health and wellbeing of Solid Energy employees. To the annoyance of this group, Solid Energy has set up CCTV and used private investigators to keep an eye on their activities. If they are as altruistic as they claim, why are these criminals afraid of their activities being subjected to scrutiny? What do they wish to keep hidden from public view? They demand high levels of accountability from the organisations they love to vilify yet collapse in a screaming heap if hard questions are asked of them.

Unlike the wailing environmentalists, Solid Energy has at all times operated within the law. One may disagree with the laws, but one should remind oneself that one lives in a democracy and can exert influence to change these, should one wish.

“Infiltration” of organisations hell-bent on mischief is and should remain a legitimate intelligence-gathering measure.

[vifferman]

I didn't bother finding out the facts of this, but just hearing the headline about Solid Energy admitting paying someone to "spy" on the Greenies, I thought,"So pharking what?!?" I can't see anything wrong with that at all; nothing illegal or immoral - since when was observation either of those things?

[Swoop]

The student was paid $100-pw for telling them what? "Four people showed up at the meeting last night and nobody brought beer!".

A storm in a teacup.

[Indiana_Jones]

I see no problem with them spying on the fuckers.

They make threats and damage property.

Sure, when those hippies do it, it's ok, the media go "oh look at those poor people fighting the good fight"

But as soon as the companies fight back "OH those evil oppressive people!"

Fucking hippies

-Indy

[Steam]

So, would it be okay for a political party to do the same?
"Labour tails John Key's family, friends, with team of investigators."

How about a company putting a technician into another company's R&D department to send intelligence back on their gadgets?

During a time of war, spies are executed. How is spying in peacetime fundamentally different?

Given that both National, Labour, and the Greens have all come out saying the spying on behalf of Solid Energy is inappropriate, do you think you are perhaps out of touch with things?

How would YOU feel if someone reported on your conversations, perhaps a colleague who reported your opinions to the boss, or was collecting information for a corporate takeover...

It may not be illegal but it's sure as hell a shitty thing to do. It's immoral, not illegal.

[peasea]

Fuck Greenpeace, they are a bunch of statistic-manipulating wankers.

[limbimtimwim]

Greenpeace annoys me, particularly by the way it canvasses for “members” but provides “members” with no means of contributing to that “organisation’s” agenda for action. One doesn’t “join” Greenpeace. One makes a donation. Big difference. Greenpeace just wants their money.Next time you get 'street talked' by a greenpeace person (Happens to me all the time) just say "Oh, they are as bad as the other big companies" and watch the 'street talker' implode in confusion.

[Indiana_Jones]

So, would it be okay for a political party to do the same?
"Labour tails John Key's family, friends, with team of investigators."

How about a company putting a technician into another company's R&D department to send intelligence back on their gadgets?

During a time of war, spies are executed. How is spying in peacetime fundamentally different?

Given that both National, Labour, and the Greens have all come out saying the spying on behalf of Solid Energy is inappropriate, do you think you are perhaps out of touch with things?

Everyone uses spies.

Russia and the US still spy on each other, any nation with any sense would be watching what the other side is doing

Same with companies, you can be all goody goody and not spy, but fuck it, the other guy is gonna be spying on you lol :whocares:

-Indy

[BigG]

Bring on Nuclear Power Stations its clean but not so Green ( Solid Energy with a core):bye:

[Big Dave]

Everyone uses spies.

Russia and the US still spy on each other, any nation with any sense would be watching what the other side is doing

Same with companies, you can be all goody goody and not spy, but fuck it, the other guy is gonna be spying on you lol :whocares:

-Indy

I'm watching you buddy.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'm watching you buddy.

I'm watching you..........with these hungry eyes!

-Indy

[Big Dave]

watching me run away now

[oldrider]

The so called student is a bullshitter of the first kind and helped to orchestrate this rubbish to further their own cause!

I listened to an in depth radio interview and he was just full of it, they must think we (the general public) are bloody idiots!

Then again............maybe in the main they are right!..........Look at our elected leaders! :sick: John.

[Blackbird]

Protecting democracy sometimes calls for undemocratic, if not illegal measures. There is no simple answer to what is over the boundary and what is not. I do however have a problem with both the state and other organisations (like militant unionists in the 70's and early 80's) grossly exceeding the norms of behaviour. I don't believe that the norm was exceeded in this instance. It's a complicated old world.

[James Deuce]

So, would it be okay for a political party to do the same?
"Labour tails John Key's family, friends, with team of investigators."

How about a company putting a technician into another company's R&D department to send intelligence back on their gadgets?

During a time of war, spies are executed. How is spying in peacetime fundamentally different?

Given that both National, Labour, and the Greens have all come out saying the spying on behalf of Solid Energy is inappropriate, do you think you are perhaps out of touch with things?

How would YOU feel if someone reported on your conversations, perhaps a colleague who reported your opinions to the boss, or was collecting information for a corporate takeover...

It may not be illegal but it's sure as hell a shitty thing to do. It's immoral, not illegal.

You've missed the point.

If I owned or managed a company that regularly came under threat of harm to people and property I would do what I could to protect those people and that property. If that meant taking the same steps Solid Energy has I would. If you don't show commitment to your employees your company is in big trouble. It is entirely moral and ethical from the perspective of protecting people's lives.

These protesters are operating under the premise that the paradigm of violent protest is still a viable one in a world that is geared to a swift and brutal response to "terrorism". Let's not return to the days of blowing up elderly cleaners to make a point.

[Hitcher]

So, would it be okay for a political party to do the same? "Labour tails John Key's family, friends, with team of investigators."
I am certain that all of the major political parties have "plants" in the other political parties. They are, after all, public membership organisations. There's the distinction.


How about a company putting a technician into another company's R&D department to send intelligence back on their gadgets?
Illegal, I'm sorry. Stealing intellectual property is theft.


During a time of war, spies are executed. How is spying in peacetime fundamentally different?
There's no death sentence? "Spying" should be a punishable offence.


Given that both National, Labour, and the Greens have all come out saying the spying on behalf of Solid Energy is inappropriate, do you think you are perhaps out of touch with things?
No. Election year is coming and some misguided political strategists think there may be votes from being seen to suck green dick.


How would YOU feel if someone reported on your conversations, perhaps a colleague who reported your opinions to the boss, or was collecting information for a corporate takeover...
We clarified this matter earlier. I am not a public organisation, nor has a Court been convinced that I am plotting illegal activities sufficient to grant the Police the authority necessary to tap my phone or bug my home.


It may not be illegal but it's sure as hell a shitty thing to do. It's immoral, not illegal.
I disagree about the "morality". It may be "moral" if the activist vandals had demonstrated morality themselves. They had repeatedly chosen to act outside the law and put at risk the health and welfare of Solid Energy employees and damage that company's property.

[Big Dave]

>>from being seen to suck green dick.<<

Shreck III gag.

[terbang]

Sometimes protest is the only way to provoke a debate that will/could ultimately invoke change. My Father didn't speak to me for nearly 10 years for protesting against the 81 Springbok tour. The rest is history. Whilst those that protest can be an annoyance to those that would rather just blindly follow the system or are apathetic to change, it does raise questions. As for the spying, well all is fair in love and war isn't it and as someone has allready said, it is when the behaviour (either side) goes outside the normal bounds of our society that we need to sit up and take notice. Job done...

[James Deuce]

Protest is fine. Damaging mine equipment that people operate is not. Protesting to make sure worker's pay stays relatively level with an economy is fine. Blowing up cleaners isn't.

No one is debating the right to protest. The fact that it is somehow OK for Green protestors to put other people's lives at risk seems to have escaped the media somewhat.

[Big Dave]

The fact that it is somehow OK for Green protestors to put other people's lives at risk seems to have escaped the media somewhat.



I advocate Black.

[Oakie]

I wonder what would happen if some low level office drone from Solid Energy fronted up to Greenpeace and said, "Hey guys, I support what you do and I'll let you know what Solid Energy's plans are". Do you think Greenpeace would say "Oh no no no, we couldn't accept that information. We find that totally immoral and unethical"? Right and wrong so often depends on your perspective.

Stuff 'em I say. If they want to play outside the bounds of normal protest then they can't moan to much if the subjects of their protest step outside the bounds of normal self defense (as long as it is legal).

[Dilligaf]

Glad I wasn't the only one who turned to hubby and said, "This is news....... why?"
YAWN another slow news day hm? And to make it worse, it was the lead item on the telly news..... :yawn:

[The Stranger]

Greenpeace annoys me, particularly by the way it canvasses for “members” but provides “members” with no means of contributing to that “organisation’s” agenda for action. One doesn’t “join” Greenpeace. One makes a donation. Big difference. Greenpeace just wants their money.

I expect accountability from organisations of which I am a member.

Are you still a member?
Used to be that once you were a member for 2yrs you could vote on setting agendas, if you bothered. Has this changed?

[Scouse]

Returning to Solid Energy, this company has been tormented for some time by a group of activist vandals, representative of nobody, that has been responsible for trespass, damage to property and threats to the health and wellbeing of Solid Energy employees. To the annoyance of this group, Solid Energy has set up CCTV and used private investigators to keep an eye on their activities. If they are as altruistic as they claim, why are these criminals afraid of their activities being subjected to scrutiny? What do they wish to keep hidden from public view? They demand high levels of accountability from the organisations they love to vilify yet collapse in a screaming heap if hard questions are asked of them.

Unlike the wailing environmentalists, Solid Energy has at all times operated within the law. One may disagree with the laws, but one should remind oneself that one lives in a democracy and can exert influence to change these, should one wish.

“Infiltration” of organisations hell-bent on mischief is and should remain a legitimate intelligence-gathering measure.you foolish person they are only Alleged vandals that have been allegedly responsible for trespass, damage to property and threats to the health and wellbeing of Solid Energy employees.which means you can only call them Alleged criminals.

[Scouse]

Errr if I remember right wasn't it Greenpeace that put themselves in harms way when the French were vaporizing Muroroa Atol stuff all you hippy bashers as far as Im concerned Greenpeace were heros for taking on the frog wankers exploding nukes in our back yard.

[Lias]

This is the same lot that concreted themselves to the train tracks not so long ago yeah?

Personally I'd have paid the 5 grand (52*$100) to someone to break all their kneecaps or fingers.. Bit hard to stand around holding a protest sign on crutches with yer hands in a cast :-P

[Oakie]

Errr if I remember right wasn't it Greenpeace that put themselves in harms way when the French were vaporizing Muroroa Atol stuff all you hippy bashers as far as Im concerned Greenpeace were heros for taking on the frog wankers exploding nukes in our back yard.

I think a Royal NZ Navy frigate with a NZ MP (Fraser Coleman?) were out there protesting in the early 70s probably before Greenpeace was even heard of (although I stand to be corrected as I can't be bothered doing the research).

Now that's how you do it ... with a warship not a converted fishing boat!

Now hang on. (Oakie has flashback and scratches head) Perhaps Greenpeace were there at the same time as I seem to remember a boat called the 'Fri' (?) crewed by hippys being there too. Someone will enlighten me I'm sure.

[Hitcher]

This is the same lot that concreted themselves to the train tracks not so long ago yeah?

Personally I'd have paid the 5 grand (52*$100) to someone to break all their kneecaps or fingers.. Bit hard to stand around holding a protest sign on crutches with yer hands in a cast

I just love the way that losers like this assume that the train will stop...

[MisterD]

Solid Energy are a state-owned company, so as a shareholder I'd be calling for the resignation of the CEO if he had not taken such simple prudent steps to protect the company.

[Scouse]

I think a Royal NZ Navy frigate with a NZ MP (Fraser Coleman?) were out there protesting in the early 70s probably before Greenpeace was even heard of (although I stand to be corrected as I can't be bothered doing the research).

Now that's how you do it ... with a warship not a converted fishing boat!

Now hang on. (Oakie has flashback and scratches head) Perhaps Greenpeace were there at the same time as I seem to remember a boat called the 'Fri' (?) crewed by hippys being there too. Someone will enlighten me I'm sure.The difference being that the frigate was well and truly out of harms way while Greenpeace were dogging the frog navy inside the hot zone

[avgas]

Yep i completely agree. I used to be a mega-greenie before. But i realised a few years ago - that i would rather give my money to someone who actually gives a fuck about this world. Not some promo-bullshit company.
Another classic is the salvation army - anyone seen their head office in QUEEN ST!!!
Not to mention the 10's of millions of dollars of investment property they own here too!!!

[The Stranger]

But i realised a few years ago - that i would rather give my money to someone who actually gives a fuck about this world.

So who did you find that give a fuck about this world?

[peasea]

Glad I wasn't the only one who turned to hubby and said, "This is news....... why?"
YAWN another slow news day hm? And to make it worse, it was the lead item on the telly news..... :yawn:

Quite right, wasn't there an expired parking meter they could have interviewed?

[SPman]

I quite like Sea Shepherd, who go out sinking illegal whaling boats and play dodgems with the Jap whalers.......

[peasea]

So who did you find that give a fuck about this world?



......and was that person an Asian?

[James Deuce]

The difference being that the frigate was well and truly out of harms way while Greenpeace were dogging the frog navy inside the hot zone

Never forget that Greenpeace are happy to photoshop images of events that never happened and then go, "Oh yeah heehee, we weren't there after all. Teehee. Our mistake. Move along, nothing to see here."

It was Greenpeace III you were thinking of and David McTaggart, one of the founders of Greenpeace, was the guy that the French beat up. Now pardon me for saying it, didn't we want to incarcerate some French Government employees for breaching our border illegally? He was bloody lucky the French didn't just sink the Greenpeace III for entering French territorial waters illegally and leave the crew to the fishies.

[Mental Trousers]

Solid Energy are a state-owned company, so as a shareholder I'd be calling for the resignation of the CEO if he had not taken such simple prudent steps to protect the company.

I say he should resign as this has gone public. If you're going to gather information in a way that is almost industrial espionage then you sure as shit better not get caught.

[The Pastor]

Give me a 12 guage, chainsaw and a balacalva. I'll get rid of your protesters for you.

[ali]

It's a bloody interesting debate, noboby can say that motorcyclists can't string a decent sentence together.

What does the S.I.S do ? ( we fund them )

Would this be an issue if Labour did not need the Green vote ? ( John Key is also more politically savvy than his predecessor )

It should be anyones right to protest ( otherwise N.Z actually becomes the dictatorship half the poulation think it is).

Watched this make headline news again tonight, my nine year old has less naievity than our bearded brothers, how the hell did solid energy get screwed over the "giant snails " ( or whatever they were ) by these people ?

[peasea]

I had hands-on dealings with GP years ago when unleaded petrol reared its ugly head. They were full of shite, didn't know the facts and when I contacted their head honcho of the day I was informed that GP had "moved on" and "weren't concentrating on transport issues".

Unleaded fuel, burnt in an internal combustion engine without a catalytic converter fitted is more dangerous to anything, or anyone, than leaded fuel ever was. It's carcinogenic.

Thanks GP, you're saving us from............fuck all.

[Flatcap]

I say he should resign as this has gone public. If you're going to gather information in a way that is almost industrial espionage then you sure as shit better not get caught.

Pah! - This is the same as the Police using paid informants to infiltrate gangs.

[Mental Trousers]

Pah! - This is the same as the Police using paid informants to infiltrate gangs.
That isn't Industrial Espionage. It's for Law Enforcement purposes.

[James Deuce]

It can't be Industrial espionage if you're hiring PIs to watch private citizens who've threatened to damage equipment your own and hurt people you employ. As far as I know the people protesting against Solid Energy aren't involved in any industry except the one where tax payers pay them to setup faux-Green oriented money collection "charities".

[marty]

here's some examples of industrial spying:

an Air NZ employee gets paid to fly on competitor airlines to sample/experience their service - feeds back to the Air NZ bosses how to improve.

a bar manager goes out to a competitor bar in the evening to sample/experience service - feeds back to the boss.

a hotelier purchases a night at a competitor to sample the service. modifies their hotel as a result.

they are all forms of spying.

the best comment on here yet is about the solid energy minnow that goes to GP and says 'for $100 i'll tell you what the plans are for machinery security' - would GP refuse? i doubt it.

[Mental Trousers]

It can't be Industrial espionage if you're hiring PIs to watch private citizens who've threatened to damage equipment your own and hurt people you employ. As far as I know the people protesting against Solid Energy aren't involved in any industry except the one where tax payers pay them to setup faux-Green oriented money collection "charities".

yup, I know. But Industrial Espionage comes closest to this. I can't think of another term that will cover it.

[peasea]

Pah! - This is the same as the Police using paid informants to infiltrate gangs.


Or gangs using unpaid informants to infiltrate the police....

[Big Dog]

How would YOU feel if someone reported on your conversations, perhaps a colleague who reported your opinions to the boss, or was collecting information for a corporate takeover...

It may not be illegal but it's sure as hell a shitty thing to do. It's immoral, not illegal.
Umm, if the actions I am taking or planning on taking are illegal and you succeed in spying on me and are successful in reporting / stopping me so are the risks of my conspiracy.

[Skyryder]

You've missed the point.

If I owned or managed a company that regularly came under threat of harm to people and property I would do what I could to protect those people and that property. If that meant taking the same steps Solid Energy has I would. If you don't show commitment to your employees your company is in big trouble. It is entirely moral and ethical from the perspective of protecting people's lives.

These protesters are operating under the premise that the paradigm of violent protest is still a viable one in a world that is geared to a swift and brutal response to "terrorism". Let's not return to the days of blowing up elderly cleaners to make a point.

I think Steam has 'hit' the point. The CEO of Solid Energy does not own the company (the State does) so your analogy is irrelevent as is the rest of your post in defending Solid Energy's behavour. It's a fucking sad day that many here applaud the very same tactics that was used in Communist Russia during the cold war:spying on your fellow citizens. Because that J2 is what Solid Engergy did..............and in New Zealand there is simply no excuse for this at all.............period.

It was not so long ago when the HP boys were hiding under bushes, bridges and bill boards with their radar guns. When it comes to 'us' we seem to know what ethics means, but when unethical behavour is directed at those that we disagree with, suddenly we forget the meaning of the word.


Skyyrder

[Big Dog]

The difference being that the frigate was well and truly out of harms way while Greenpeace were dogging the frog navy inside the hot zone

And acting without mandate and contrary to international law.

This is more an indictment on the relevant parties not imposing controls or sanctions against a country that was bombing another just because there was no declaration of war.

Greenpeace is a terrorist organisation the affiliates with other terrorist orgainsations.
They go on about peaceful protest but then proceed to break laws in the pursuit of the agendas of self appointed and self righteous zealots.

An Ex joined greenpeace and soon resigned after she was invited to take part in illegal activities.

[Steam]

Just got home, read the thread through, now to see how many reddies I got...

[Big Dog]

here's some examples of industrial spying:

an Air NZ employee gets paid to fly on competitor airlines to sample/experience their service - feeds back to the Air NZ bosses how to improve.

a bar manager goes out to a competitor bar in the evening to sample/experience service - feeds back to the boss.

a hotelier purchases a night at a competitor to sample the service. modifies their hotel as a result.

they are all forms of spying.

the best comment on here yet is about the solid energy minnow that goes to GP and says 'for $100 i'll tell you what the plans are for machinery security' - would GP refuse? i doubt it.That is market research. The information is all publicly available.
Espionage implies the information gathered is not public knowledge.

By the above standards would reading a Greenpeace Pamphlet count as espionage?

[Steam]

Hey, I didn't get any red bling for that post, cool! Well done KB for debating with your minds and not just clicking that red button. I'm afraid of red.

[Skyryder]

Just got home, read the thread through, now to see how many reddies I got...



You got a greenie from me. I'm a bit of pinko myself so any reds I get I just take them as confirmation that I've pushed some buttons.

Skyryder

[JimO]

I think Steam has 'hit' the point. The CEO of Solid Energy does not own the company (the State does) so your analogy is irrelevent as is the rest of your post in defending Solid Energy's behavour. It's a fucking sad day that many here applaud the very same tactics that was used in Communist Russia during the cold war:spying on your fellow citizens. Because that J2 is what Solid Engergy did..............and in New Zealand there is simply no excuse for this at all.............period.

It was not so long ago when the HP boys were hiding under bushes, bridges and bill boards with their radar guns. When it comes to 'us' we seem to know what ethics means, but when unethical behavour is directed at those that we disagree with, suddenly we forget the meaning of the word.


Skyyrder

the protesters dont mind bending or breaking the law whats so fucking different in some parts of the world these cnuts would dissapear...bring on the spies i say...fuck the greenies..Nz has enough coal to last us until jesus comes back but fat chance of using it

[Skyryder]

the protesters dont mind bending or breaking the law whats so fucking different in some parts of the world these cnuts would dissapear...bring on the spies i say...fuck the greenies..Nz has enough coal to last us until jesus comes back but fat chance of using it

One of the real problems here JJ is that the Greenies or any other protest movement is an open membership. In other words any member of the public can join. Once a one SOE develops a policy of employing spies to infiltrate these protest movements, splinter groups will go underground to evade detection. They will in other words develop cells and act independently from the main body. Just try thinking up a notch as too the likely outcome of this.

Skyryder

[James Deuce]

I think Steam has 'hit' the point. The CEO of Solid Energy does not own the company (the State does) so your analogy is irrelevent as is the rest of your post in defending Solid Energy's behavour. It's a fucking sad day that many here applaud the very same tactics that was used in Communist Russia during the cold war:spying on your fellow citizens. Because that J2 is what Solid Engergy did..............and in New Zealand there is simply no excuse for this at all.............period.

It was not so long ago when the HP boys were hiding under bushes, bridges and bill boards with their radar guns. When it comes to 'us' we seem to know what ethics means, but when unethical behavour is directed at those that we disagree with, suddenly we forget the meaning of the word.


Skyyrder

So it's OK to cut the brake lines of a 300 tonne coal truck being driven by a bloke trying to make ends meet for his family? Just so we're clear on that.

It's OK to concrete yourself to a railway track and expect a train carrying 1000s of tonnes of coal to stop before it kills protesters, leaving the driver (again, a working Joe) with the stigma and guilt of killing people he bears no malice to, just because the protesters seem to lack a basic understanding of inertia.

If they were my employees I would do what I could to protect them. I fail to understand how anyone can object to CCTV installations on Solid Energy property, and as we have been told over and over, the Police don't have the resources to watch these people who think it is perfectly acceptable to threaten people and property to make a point that has dubious validity.

Solid Energy is like every other SOE in NZ. The CEO is the boss. No one said he owned, but he is responsible for the welfare of his staff and the profitability of the organisation.

If it was your property being threatened and your workmates being threatened, would you just let it lie? I think not.

It's not Soviet behaviour either. The Protestors would be in a Gulag or clearing minefields in Afghanistan with a short stick by now. I think it is a measured response.

[Big Dave]

I quite like Sea Shepherd, who go out sinking illegal whaling boats and play dodgems with the Jap whalers.......

Bring back Flipper!

[Indiana_Jones]

Hey, I didn't get any red bling for that post, cool! Well done KB for debating with your minds and not just clicking that red button. I'm afraid of red.

Well I personally don't give red rep to someone who i don't meet eye-to-eye with, it's just pointless. We'd all have bars of red by now lol

-Indy

[jimbo600]

Dumbass lefty fuckwits. These are the same wankers who think that blue M&Ms contain cobalt so the CIA can track them via satellite. Jeezus what the fuck do they expect. Firms to sit by and let them plot all sorts of wanky direct action. Fuck me I wish the CIA could track lead so they could track a bullet lodged in Valerie Morse's head.

Boo fuckin' hoo SOE's have payed people to fizz on us. They should be happy with the media attention. Arsewipe maggots.

[Skyryder]

So it's OK to cut the brake lines of a 300 tonne coal truck being driven by a bloke trying to make ends meet for his family? Just so we're clear on that.

It's OK to concrete yourself to a railway track and expect a train carrying 1000s of tonnes of coal to stop before it kills protesters, leaving the driver (again, a working Joe) with the stigma and guilt of killing people he bears no malice to, just because the protesters seem to lack a basic understanding of inertia.

If they were my employees I would do what I could to protect them. I fail to understand how anyone can object to CCTV installations on Solid Energy property, and as we have been told over and over, the Police don't have the resources to watch these people who think it is perfectly acceptable to threaten people and property to make a point that has dubious validity.

Solid Energy is like every other SOE in NZ. The CEO is the boss. No one said he owned, but he is responsible for the welfare of his staff and the profitability of the organisation.

If it was your property being threatened and your workmates being threatened, would you just let it lie? I think not.

It's not Soviet behaviour either. The Protestors would be in a Gulag or clearing minefields in Afghanistan with a short stick by now. I think it is a measured response.

Where does my post 'OK' anyone to break the law or put other people at risk?


Skyryder

[Hitcher]

Where does my post 'OK' anyone to break the law or put other people at risk?

Your post implied that Don Elder, as CEO of Solid Energy, was just a lacky minion, a cog in some sort of state-owned machine who had limited responsibilities to discharge and who should have better things to do than worry about what a bunch of activists were up to. If that were the case, then I am certain a significantly less competent person could be lined up to fulfill this role, at a fraction of the price Dr Elder commands. That and illusions to Russia during the cold war are taking some liberties with the reality that applies on a wind-swept mountain top on the West Coast of the South Island and at Solid Energy's corporate HQ in suburban Christchurch.

[Swoop]

I quite like Sea Shepherd, who go out sinking illegal whaling boats and play dodgems with the Jap whalers.......
Why can't Greenpeace fathom their approach of "non-violent, direct action" would be far more efficient if it were "violent, direct action"?
Whaling ship = Harpoon anti-ship missile launched at it.
Sealers clubbing baby harp seals = helicopter gunships doing repeated runs on the sealers.
Imagine the TV ratings!!! Dubya would have another enemy and several new countries to invade.

In fact, a whole NEW Survivor genre would begin. Survivor Greenpeace!

[Lias]

One of the real problems here JJ is that the Greenies or any other protest movement is an open membership. In other words any member of the public can join. Once a one SOE develops a policy of employing spies to infiltrate these protest movements, splinter groups will go underground to evade detection. They will in other words develop cells and act independently from the main body. Just try thinking up a notch as too the likely outcome of this.

Skyryder

Herein lies the crux.

If they are law abiding citizens, not planning any ILLEGAL actions then they should have nothing to hide and allow open membership, knowing full well that the other side will know what they are up to.

If on the other hand they are a bunch of eco-terrorists planning illegal actions, they should be infiltrated by the SIS rather than PI's, and then all arrested and sentenced to a slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket (we are still under a labour government after all.. cant have decent sentences)

[Storm]

Lias- you've changed. Wheres the communist hippy we once knew? Criticising the Labour Govt and all?
You've been riding lots havent you? :bleh:

[Skyryder]

Your post implied that Don Elder, as CEO of Solid Energy, was just a lacky minion, a cog in some sort of state-owned machine who had limited responsibilities to discharge and who should have better things to do than worry about what a bunch of activists were up to.

My post implies nothing of the sort. Not one of your better posts Hitcher.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

here's some examples of industrial spying:

an Air NZ employee gets paid to fly on competitor airlines to sample/experience their service - feeds back to the Air NZ bosses how to improve.

a bar manager goes out to a competitor bar in the evening to sample/experience service - feeds back to the boss.

a hotelier purchases a night at a competitor to sample the service. modifies their hotel as a result.

they are all forms of spying.

the best comment on here yet is about the solid energy minnow that goes to GP and says 'for $100 i'll tell you what the plans are for machinery security' - would GP refuse? i doubt it.

Not to mention the current long running add on TV for ASB, even had a motorcycle episode, worlds fastest "idiot". :shit: Banking espionage Goldstein? :yes:

Not a murmur of protest there, just good advertising and humour to boot but essentially the same thing.

Me thinks they protest too much. :nono: John.

[The Pastor]

Im down with niggas spying on shit yo.