For Hitcher

[Beemer]

1) Use commas only when, needed.
2) Don't use no double negatives.
3) Prepositions are not to end sentences with.
4) Keep you're work neat and tidy.
5) Never abbrev.
6) Pronouns must agree with its antecedents.
7) Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
8) Use commas to separate words in a series parentheticals introductory clauses and the like.
9) Read over your work to make sure you have not out any words.
10) While a transcendent vocabulary is laudable, one must nonetheless keep incessant surveillance against such loquacious, effusive, voluble verbosity that the calculated objective of communications becomes ensconced in obscurity.

[MSTRS]

11. dont tri spelling fonetickly

[Beemer]

12) Avoid cliches like the plague.

[MSTRS]

13. Don't gratuitously add stuff that is not necessary.

[Hitcher]

13. Never use a foreign phrase or expression when there is an acceptable English quid pro quo.

[sAsLEX]

15. Always expand TLAs in their first instance.

[MSTRS]

13. Never use a foreign phrase or expression when there is an acceptable English quid pro quo.

16. Watch for numerical progression.

[Coyote]

256: n0 txt lnguge lol

[terbang]

13. Never use a foreign phrase or expression when there is an acceptable English quid pro quo.
Apa? Saya Ingrish tidak bagus..!

[vifferman]

17. Finish with the ellipsis if you've lost your train of thought...
18. Break up very long sentences (like this one here) with parentheses [and those bracket thingies] to make it easier for the dullards {those who are slow of wit (or dim of eye)} to follow what you - or someone like you - is talking about. (Or something (or not)).

[sAsLEX]

19. If you cannot find the word you require in the English language, make one up as in the following:
- CheapBastidHandyDandyLeverTieCumEmergencyHandbrake
- DeviceForCleaningAndErlingTheChainWiddoutMakingAFo okinGreatMess
- BlackPlasticDooferToStopErrantBodyPartsFromBeingEa tenByTheBackSprocket

[jonbuoy]

19) Stop being so anal its a biker forum not a Shakespeare play or spelling bee.

[Big Dave]

ii) eschew obscurification.

[vifferman]

19. If you cannot find the word you require in the English language, make one up as in the following:
- CheapBastidHandyDandyLeverTieCumEmergencyHandbrake
- DeviceForCleaningAndErlingTheChainWiddoutMakingAFo okinGreatMess
- BlackPlasticDooferToStopErrantBodyPartsFromBeingEa tenByTheBackSprocket
Hey!! You have to acknowledge me if you do that - I started that trend! :nono:

[sAsLEX]

21. Always exaggerate when telling a story.
e.g. "You forgot to mention that the 2,347,286 bulbs are all peculiar 1.7W ones, so they're essentially unobtainable from anywhere except Honda."

[Joni]

18) Im confused :cry:

But who cares as long as I spell it right :mellow:

Love ya Hitch - but I gotta agree with Jonbuoy on this one...

[MSTRS]

19) Stop being so anal its a biker forum not a Shakespeare play or spelling bee.
Translation - FFS :whocares:

Say what you mean....we're bikers afterall.

[vifferman]

21. Always exaggerate when telling a story.
e.g. "You forgot to mention that the 2,347,286 bulbs are all peculiar 1.7W ones, so they're essentially unobtainable from anywhere except Honda."
Dude - it should be:
"You forgot to mention that the 2,347,286 bulbs are all peculiar 1.7W ones, so they're essentially unobtainable from anywhere except an official registered Honda dealer, and even then they will have to be ordered on indent from Japan, they'll want you to pay upfront before they even order them, and then they'll cost at least a bazillion dollars each. Oh - and they'll take 7 or 8 months to arrive, and they'll neglect to call you for another 17 weeks after that. You're better off just putting LEDs in - they'll only cost a few cents each!."

[Kiwifire72]

Nice and oh so true :yes:
Totally agree

[pritch]

Apa? Saya Ingrish tidak bagus..!

Terima kasi lah

[peasea]

Totally agree

Looks like there's a queue.

[MSTRS]

Looks like there's a queue.

Only for the 'me toos'...

[Curious_AJ]

2007) lol!!

[Biff]

201. Get a life

[Hitcher]

At least Jonbuoy knows how to spell and how to construct a sentence.

The BDOTGNZA would like it known that they now generally conserve their efforts for dire or emergency situations. They accept that this is a "biker forum" but strongly believe that babbling incoherence adds no value to anything, including discussion of motorcycle-related matters.

[Edbear]

1)
10) While a transcendent vocabulary is laudable, one must nonetheless keep incessant surveillance against such loquacious, effusive, voluble verbosity that the calculated objective of communications becomes ensconced in obscurity.



I agree!:yes:

[Edbear]

ii) eschew obscurification.



Yup!:sunny:

[MisterD]

19. If you cannot find the word you require in the English language, make one up as in the following:
- CheapBastidHandyDandyLeverTieCumEmergencyHandbrake
- DeviceForCleaningAndErlingTheChainWiddoutMakingAFo okinGreatMess
- BlackPlasticDooferToStopErrantBodyPartsFromBeingEa tenByTheBackSprocket

You're not German by any chance?

[MotoGirl]

At least Jonbuoy knows how to spell and how to construct a sentence.

I agree with using appropriate spelling and grammar, however, we need to remember that some people genuinely cannot spell or construct a sentence. Kiwi Biker is a bike forum and you don't need to be academic to ride.

[DMNTD]

At least Jonbuoy knows how to spell and how to construct a sentence....

Not quite true oh learned One..."it is" was the correct spelling but hey,that's just me being :buggerd:

[Big Dave]

At least Jonbuoy knows how to spell and how to construct a sentence.




How long did he get?

[Maha]

1) Use commas only when, needed.


They were the van of choice before the Transit and CF Beddy came along...give the Comma its rightful place in automotive history.....:Punk:

[Hitcher]

They were the van of choice before the Transit and CF Beddy came along...give the Comma its rightful place in automotive history...

Indeed. Somewhere between go and full stop.

[peasea]

Indeed. Somewhere between go and full stop.

With the van that's not a big gap......

[Beemer]

By the way, this was not intended as a dig at anyone, especially not Hitcher, as he would confirm I am just as pedantic about spelling and grammar as he is! The title was because I knew he would enjoy the thread - and probably be able to name and shame those KB members who have committed each and every one of those sins!

Yes, it is a bike forum, but we aren't all Neanderthals! :dodge:

[kevfromcoro]

just read all the thread....cant make sence of any of it...we are bikers not f...cken authors..... have another whiskey

[u4ea]

I agree with using appropriate spelling and grammar, however, we need to remember that some people genuinely cannot spell or construct a sentence. Kiwi Biker is a bike forum and you don't need to be academic to ride.

ohyayjustwhenIthoughtthiswasabikersiteandItobeafri ggingeniusjusttologginsomebastodremindedmeimjustfr igginhuman

[jonbuoy]

By the way, this was not intended as a dig at anyone, especially not Hitcher, as he would confirm I am just as pedantic about spelling and grammar as he is! The title was because I knew he would enjoy the thread - and probably be able to name and shame those KB members who have committed each and every one of those sins!

Yes, it is a bike forum, but we aren't all Neanderthals! :dodge:

I've worked with some good blokes who could barely read or write - they weren't Neanderthals just not in the least bit academic.

[scumdog]

I agree with using appropriate spelling and grammar, however, we need to remember that some people genuinely cannot spell or construct a sentence. Kiwi Biker is a bike forum and you don't need to be academic to ride.

I feel in the above sentence substituting 'most' for 'some' would be more accurate judging by a lot of posts on KB..:whistle:

[DMNTD]

I feel in the above sentence substituting 'most' for 'some' would be more accurate judging by a lot of posts on KB..:whistle:

I feel in the above sentence substituting "most" for "a lot" would be more accurate judging by a lot of posts on KB..:whistle:

[Beemer]

I've worked with some good blokes who could barely read or write - they weren't Neanderthals just not in the least bit academic.

Being able to string an intelligible sentence together has nothing to do with being academic. I've got heaps of friends who have very few academic qualifications but they can tell a damn good story and converse with all sorts of people. I can live with people not being able to spell (after all, if they could, I'd be out of a job) but I get tired of trying to work out what someone was trying to say in a post because they talk/write like a caveman!

[KATWYN]

19) Stop being so anal its a biker forum not a Shakespeare play or spelling bee.

Agreed. Bling sent. One Thing I Kan't Stand Is When People Korrect Others Writing/Speling/Punchooashion/Grama/style in a place such as a Kiwibiker site, Its Quite Unecesary I wood think.

All it does is reassure the already edukated How Much More Edukated They Are By Correcting Others "errors", or gives an ear of superiorority over others and it puts others off from contributing to conversations - quite counterproductive really

Everyone knows what people are saying no matter how its typed (i.e., the above is riddled with it ....but the point is, i'm sure people that read it understood it, without needing to critique it all!) :zzzz:

[90s]

Agreed. Bling sent. One Thing I Kan't Stand Is When People Korrect Others Writing/Speling/Punchooashion/Grama/style in a place such as a Kiwibiker site, Its Quite Unecesary I wood think.

All it does is reassure the already edukated How Much More Edukated They Are By Correcting Others "errors", or gives an ear of superiorority over others and it puts others off from contributing to conversations - quite counterproductive really

Everyone knows what people are saying no matter how its typed (i.e., the above is riddled with it ....but the point is, i'm sure people that read it understood it, without needing to critique it all!) :zzzz:

... yet on the other hand (a comma here would not be 'correct', yet how many of the pedants feel the urge to insert one?) I have read posts which have been truly incomphrehensible. The author has then been very frustrated with the replies to his question / comment and the acrimony started. You don't need to spell perfectly or use perfect grammar but being able to make yourself understood is an advantage if you are trying to communicate - and why else would you be on a discussion forum?

[90s]

... but I get tired of trying to work out what someone was trying to say in a post because they talk/write like a caveman!

Probably because cavemen were stuck with wordstar and dialup - with no spell checkers!

[Drew]

Diction, and grammar are pet peeves of mine, even though I'm sure I get it wrong a lot, (mostly for trying too hard to get it right). But constantly being corrected is very annoying for anyone.

My two cents, please would somebody cast an eye over it and point out any errors in my speel.

[Macktheknife]

Everyone knows what people are saying no matter how its typed (i.e., the above is riddled with it ....but the point is, i'm sure people that read it understood it, without needing to critique it all!) :zzzz:

That is exactly the problem, many people assume that everyone can understand them when in fact they cannot. I have read some posts and had genuine difficulty in understanding what the person is trying to communicate, and I am certain I am not alone in that. I am not perfect with grammar and spelling but I do make an effort in trying to make myself clearly understood, I find it helps if I desire others to be clear in their responses.
Finally though, is it wrong to encourage others to improve their spelling and grammar, irrespective of the level of education. We are bikers, but we do not need to be illiterate, or barely literate ones.

[KATWYN]

... but being able to make yourself understood is an advantage if you are trying to communicate

Does that go for verbal communication as well? Theres always two or more perspectives . When there is a misunderstanding, or when information can't be understood, who is at fault? Speaker or listener? Writer or reader?

[KATWYN]

Finally though, is it wrong to encourage others to improve their spelling and grammar, irrespective of the level of education.

No, I don't think its wrong

Its the way some people go about it.

[MSTRS]

Diction and grammar are pet peeves of mine, even though I'm sure I get it wrong a lot (mostly for trying too hard to get it right). But constantly being corrected is very annoying for anyone.

My two cents. Please would somebody cast an eye over it, and point out any errors in my spiel.

ur welkum:innocent:

[MotoGirl]

Does that go for verbal communication as well? Theres always two or more perspectives . When there is a misunderstanding, or when information can't be understood, who is at fault? Speaker or listener? Writer or reader?

Let's not forget that poor punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence. If the writer uses incorrect punctuation and the reader misunderstands it, it's obviously the writer's fault.

For example, the sentence "Look at that huge hot dog!" refers to a large hot dog (that is, food). Adding a comma and making it "Look at that huge, hot dog!" completely changes the meaning of the sentence and the writer then refers to a large, hot canine.

[MSTRS]

Let's not forget that poor punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence. If the writer uses incorrect punctuation and the reader misunderstands it, it's obviously the writer's fault.

For example, the sentence "Look at that huge hot dog!" refers to a large hot dog (that is, food). Adding a comma and making it "Look at that huge, hot dog!" completely changes the meaning of the sentence and the writer then refers to a large, hot canine.

"Look at that huge, hot, dog!"
I think two are necessary in your example....but essentially you are right.
Take the sentence 'Helping your uncle jack off a horse'....

[KATWYN]

Let's not forget that poor punctuation can completely change the meaning of a sentence. If the writer uses incorrect punctuation and the reader misunderstands it, it's obviously the writer's fault.

.

Agreed

But using the Kiwbiker site as an example my point is, that by looking at the overall structure of someones thread it gives the reader a pretty good idea of where the writer/author is coming from.

my 10c worth

[The Stranger]

That is exactly the problem, many people assume that everyone can understand them when in fact they cannot. I have read some posts and had genuine difficulty in understanding what the person is trying to communicate, and I am certain I am not alone in that. I am not perfect with grammar and spelling but I do make an effort in trying to make myself clearly understood, I find it helps if I desire others to be clear in their responses.
Finally though, is it wrong to encourage others to improve their spelling and grammar, irrespective of the level of education. We are bikers, but we do not need to be illiterate, or barely literate ones.

Do you really need literacy?

Most people assume that you only really need to be proficient at English if you are working in a few specific vocations. Well they are wrong!

I am a builder by trade.
Me thinks to myself when I is a young lad, I can speak English, I'm a builder, why do I need the written word? Why?
Because it is and has been the most important thing in my career, far more so than any of my trade training or my tools. It has been the single most important element in my ability to earn a living.

As a Foreman I was constantly dealing with disputes with sub contractors, architects, engineers and clients whom could not understand documents or even basic contract law. Bringing these disputes to a conclusion (the conclusion that I wanted, screw win-win) required me to put arguments in such a manner that they were clear, logical and irrefutable. My income was directly proportional to my ability to communicate effectively. It really is that simple.

These days, your ability to earn is limited by your ability to communicate. Some years ago, when I started programming I would look at the situations vacant in various trade publications. The people selling software were earning way more than those that wrote it. Why - they were often quite dumb people, how is it that folk that can't even write a line of code or understand the workings of a piece of software sell it, let alone be valued over the ones that have the ability and technical knowledge? Because they can communicate that's why. and a big part of communication is the written word.

I remember seeing a QC being interviewed on TV once. He had obviously had a lot to do with various shall we say, unsavory characters. When asked what separated these people from you and I he replied - Their ability to communicate. They could not effectively communicate their thoughts and ideas verbally, this often led to rage and the use fists instead.

You sometimes hear people vociferous in their condemnation of teaching Maori language in schools. You don't need Maori language they say, it is of no use in this day and age. Well it is. It is about communication. Those that speak multiple languages learn concepts from one and relate them to another. So it does help with communication and I believe were it widely embraced we would see a reduction in violent crime as the ability to communicate effectively increases.

[scumdog]

Everyone knows what people are saying no matter how its typed (i.e., the above is riddled with it ....but the point is, i'm sure people that read it understood it, without needing to critique it all!) :zzzz:

Eventually we DO get what they are trying to say but hooo-boy!, it gets damn frustrating and at times not worth the effort - so the message is not absorbed - or replied to...

[Beemer]

Do you really need literacy?

Most people assume that you only really need to be proficient at English if you are working in a few specific vocations. Well they are wrong!

I am a builder by trade.
Me thinks to myself when I is a young lad, I can speak English, I'm a builder, why do I need the written word? Why?
Because it is and has been the most important thing in my career, far more so than any of my trade training or my tools. It has been the single most important element in my ability to earn a living.

As a Foreman I was constantly dealing with disputes with sub contractors, architects, engineers and clients whom could not understand documents or even basic contract law. Bringing these disputes to a conclusion (the conclusion that I wanted, screw win-win) required me to put arguments in such a manner that they were clear, logical and irrefutable. My income was directly proportional to my ability to communicate effectively. It really is that simple.

etc.

Wonderful post and my point entirely. You do not have to be a wonderful orator or great writer to be able to communicate. Nor, dare I say it, do you need to be able to spell well without a dictionary. However, if you can't communicate, you can't progress. Do you go into Pizza Hut and say "give me a pizza" and don't specify what sort? Do you go into the bank and say "I need money" and not say what for? If you do, how far do you get before someone says "I don't know what you want, mate?"

Those who can communicate well don't die because their power gets cut off, and they don't have people thinking they are thick. Being able to communicate is not a skill only available to the academically gifted, nor should it be. I bet many great communicators today have no recognised academic qualifications.

[KATWYN]

What about persons with (communication) disabilities - Surely they are exempt from this discussion? Are they not deserving of a bit of patience and understanding?

And in electronic discussions, how do we know who these people are ...

[MSTRS]

We don't (unless they tell us). But this is the big, wide world - it is an unforgiving place for all of us. Those genuinely under-literate sorts obviously need to undertake further remedial education. Here is as good a place as any to get it.

[The Stranger]

What about persons with (communication) disabilities - Surely they are exempt from this discussion? Are they not deserving of a bit of patience and understanding?

And in electronic discussions, how do know we who these people are ...

A disability is just that and I would guess that they can't help it. I am not advocating elitism or harassing anyone into "complying".
It is in the end their choice (or perhaps not in the case of a disability) if they wish to pork choply or not.
However my point is that good communication skills are a lot more important than many would realise and should not be undervalued.

[jonbuoy]

Wonderful post and my point entirely. You do not have to be a wonderful orator or great writer to be able to communicate. Nor, dare I say it, do you need to be able to spell well without a dictionary. However, if you can't communicate, you can't progress. Do you go into Pizza Hut and say "give me a pizza" and don't specify what sort? Do you go into the bank and say "I need money" and not say what for? If you do, how far do you get before someone says "I don't know what you want, mate?"

Those who can communicate well don't die because their power gets cut off, and they don't have people thinking they are thick. Being able to communicate is not a skill only available to the academically gifted, nor should it be. I bet many great communicators today have no recognised academic qualifications.

You've lost me now - what are you guys on about?? I thought this was about spelling and grammar?

You'll notice that some of the younger people on here write like they talk - lots of slang and abbreviations thats fine by me - if I can't read it I probably won't be able to help or relate to them anyway so just ignore it. If a bit of someones character comes through in their written words whats the problem? Do you all speak the Queens English with a plum in your mouth? If someone makes a few spelling/grammar errors whats the big deal? Do you have to jump on them and make them look foolish?

How many scientists/engineers/tech's have poor communication skills - lots.

[MotoGirl]

...by looking at the overall structure of someones thread it gives the reader a pretty good idea of where the writer/author is coming from.

Sometimes it does. It depends on how bad the writer's spelling and grammar is. As Scumdog said earlier, if it's really poor, many folks won't give it the time of day.

This whole thread is an interesting debate for me. I work at a software development company and our previous Technical Writer (of all people) used to write internal emails in text language. In this particular case I asked him to consider netiquette because he knew how to write but was being a lazy bastard.

In the case of KB, I think it's unrealistic to expect members to have great spelling and punctuation. After all, some people genuinely can't write, it's not expected of them professionally, and it's not holding them back from being successful on two wheels.

[KATWYN]

it's not expected of them professionally, and it's not holding them back from being successful on two wheels.

...or from earning huge incomes.

Theres plenty who are dyslexic, illiterate whatever one wants to call it
who are financially successful - as someone mentioned earlier education
matches income......does it?

[MSTRS]

In the case of KB, I think it's unrealistic to expect members to have great spelling and punctuation. After all, some people genuinely can't write, it's not expected of them professionally, and it's not holding them back from being successful on two wheels.

I don't think it's unrealistic to have an expectation of a reasonable standard of communication from anyone who is essentially an adult. In saying that, I realise that some do have literacy problems - that means that while they probably were a failure at school in the academic sense, it does not mean that they are a failure in life. However, I get annoyed when there is no attempt to take on board the free lessons, instead defending their right to be illiterate and then telling the rest of us that it is our problem that we can't understand their scratchings.

[terbang]

However, if you can't communicate, you can't progress.

Hmm true, but you miss a very vital point about communication. It requires both sides, the sender and the reciever, to be proficient. Whether it be verbal, written or whatever, if those that the message is intended for have poor listening or reading skills then communication has failed.

Have to go along with the stranger here, I used to also think english was a waste of time until I got into a technical subject.

Kamu wanita gila, mit bose schreiben being a mixture of two other languages is absolutely useless here on a kiwi biker forum as I suspect I won't have tuned into many willing recievers. Write for your audience as well.

[The Stranger]

Hmm true, but you miss a very vital point about communication. It requires both sides, the sender and the reciever, to be proficient. Whether it be verbal, written or whatever, if those that the message is intended for have poor listening or reading skills then communication has failed.


That is so true, and exactly the reason why we do have conventions.
Also, as the sender or initiator you could help the situation by making your best effort so as to ease the job of the receiver should they have poor listening or reading skills. Pointless compounding the problem is it?

[MotoGirl]

I don't think it's unrealistic to have an expectation of a reasonable standard of communication from anyone who is essentially an adult.

Sorry, I should've made myself clearer. A lot of people on KB have average communication skills. I was trying to say it's unrealistic to expect them to have great communication skills.


However, I get annoyed when there is no attempt to take on board the free lessons, instead defending their right to be illiterate and then telling the rest of us that it is our problem that we can't understand their scratchings.
It's a classic case of leading a horse to water and expecting the horse to drink it. If we tried teaching KB members how to correctly spell motorcycle-related words, I suspect there'd be greater uptake in what we have to teach them. Unfortunately, for most KB members, learning to spell and use punctuation correctly is not a priority.

[MSTRS]

Sorry, I should've made myself clearer. A lot of people on KB have average communication skills. I was trying to say it's unrealistic to expect them to have great communication skills.


Average is fine. And most here are just that. Just like society. It is the old 80/20 law in action. Except in this instance it is probably more correct to describe it as 10/80/10...
In threads like this one (has become) the upper 10 percentile are attempting to show the lower 10 percentile that communication is more than a string of words with no grammar/spelling rules applied.
Apologies if this sounds holier-than-thou

[MotoGirl]

In threads like this one (has become) the upper 10 percentile are attempting to show the lower 10 percentile that communication is more than a string of words with no grammar/spelling rules applied.
What's funny is that the people contributing to this thread are not the ones who need convincing! The others probably won't even open it because they don't care :zzzz:

[MSTRS]

What's funny is that the people contributing to this thread are not the ones who need convincing! The others probably won't even open it because they don't care :zzzz:

Their loss. And it gives 'us' something to feel superior about....:innocent:

[jonbuoy]

Their loss. And it gives 'us' something to feel superior about....:innocent:

Oh dear :no:

[KATWYN]

What's funny is that the people contributing to this thread are not the ones who need convincing! The others probably won't even open it because they don't care :zzzz:

Eggzachery. Its a great thought provoking thread.

[90s]

Does that go for verbal communication as well? Theres always two or more perspectives . When there is a misunderstanding, or when information can't be understood, who is at fault? Speaker or listener? Writer or reader?

In the case of writing, the reader is never at fault. You should write as so that you cannot be misunderstood or misinterpreted. (You can attempt to mislead a reader, but that is a different case.)

For verbal communication - well there's a whole lot of issues here. Tone, phrasing, usually body language, prior relationships (ie. when me and the missues argue about the dishes only one thing is clear to me - its not about the fricken dishes).

I would not pick up anyone on their writing skills here on KB though unless I could not follow their point. I am marking currently 100+ postgrad exams and do not wish to mark people here. But the exams are the same as here - if you cannot communicate in a written form clearly you are going to be penalised, misunderstood or ignored.

My sister is extremely clever. She did very badly at school and at Uni. I did not. She can argue very well verbally, but not write very clearly. We both have low-grade dsylexia. It can really hold you back, everything else equal.

There's nothing better than miscommunication though. If not I would not do much industrial training, where an excellent earlier post identified that the key to success (or being recognised as highly performing) in any field is being able to communicate. Once I saw a French friend lose and argument where he had done a 'favour' for his kids, who would have rather he left alone.

"When you've got a gift horse, don't brush its teeth" was the clincher.

[KATWYN]

I am marking currently 100+ postgrad exams and do not wish to mark people here. But the exams are the same as here - if you cannot communicate in a written form clearly you are going to be penalised, misunderstood or ignored.

.

I am an undergrad and sat a darn hard 3rd year paper exam yesterday. Including writing two essays (45 minutes each) I was writing like the clappers and only just managed to speed read through them at the end...i'm unsure about how they will look to the poor marker who has to mark them, but (as a student) I find it a bit concerning that if I haven't been perfect in my grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame I had that my efforts may be ignored!

[MotoGirl]

I am an undergrad and sat a darn hard 3rd year paper exam yesterday. Including writing two essays (45 minutes each) I was writing like the clappers and only just managed to speed read through them at the end...i'm unsure about how they will look to the poor marker who has to mark them, but (as a student) I find it a bit concerning that if I haven't been perfect in my grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame I had that my efforts may be ignored!

And then some of us are silly enough to get a job that involves writing full time. It's like doing homework 40 hours a week. :doh:

[90s]

I am an undergrad and sat a darn hard 3rd year paper exam yesterday. Including writing two essays (45 minutes each) I was writing like the clappers and only just managed to speed read through them at the end...i'm unsure about how they will look to the poor marker who has to mark them, but (as a student) I find it a bit concerning that if I haven't been perfect in my grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame I had that my efforts may be ignored!

Case in point. I did not write that if students "haven't been perfect in ... grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame ... efforts may be ignored!"

I wrote if you cannot communicate in writing then it will cause you problems. Grammar, spelling and punctuation aid communication, but you can convey an answer effectively with bullet points, txt language, or with even poor spelling. The problem in not the marker taking away points pedantically; it is a students potential inability to express themselves clearly. With students or in professional arbitration a constant complaint is "what I meant was ..." which bears no relation what the person actually wrote.

If you are not good at grammar etc. write simply and clearly (I am not saying that you are not! But that there are many ways to communicate in a written form without being able to write highly technical or grammatical English)

[KATWYN]

Case in point. I did not write that if students "haven't been perfect in ... grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame ... efforts may be ignored!"

write simply and clearly (I am not saying that you are not! But that there are many ways to communicate in a written form without being able to write highly technical or grammatical English)

cheers, yes I jumped to a defence a bit too soon, sorry! Straight away perfection came to my mind in what I think is expected of exam essay performance (and thats because thats what I expect from myself!)

And your latter comment puts my mind at ease.

[Biff]

How many scientists/engineers/tech's have poor communication skills - lots.

Eggsacklee.

I wont talk about my quafilications here, but I will say that I once lectured in microelectronic engineering for a couple of years at a well known edumacational faculty in the UK (BSc and MSc), and met some of the most intelligent people one could ever hope to meet - although many of them were appalling at spelling (and I'm no Shakespeare, but I'll hold my own in any discussion about quantum physics.).

Being a wordsmith in itself has never impressed me, or my mother for that matter (a Cambridge grad in English lit, and a former lecturer in linguistics ). She often describes people who pick holes in other peoples spelling and grammar, when being used in a casual context (i.e. internet forums, yes, we have discussed KB), as wearing a 'fur coat with no knickers'. In others words it's all show on the outside, often with nothing much to show underneath their arrogant/holier than thou exterior.

[scumdog]

Eggsacklee.

wearing a 'fur coat with no knickers'. In others words it's all show on the outside, often with nothing much to show underneath their arrogant/holier than thou exterior.


But our fur coat comments keeps the rest of you rabble from sliding into the 'no fur coat AND no knickers' level.

Kinda like saying "he's a shit driver but it's no use telling him" - he'll never know unless SOMEBODY SEZ.:yes:

[KATWYN]

Being a wordsmith in itself has never impressed me, or my mother for that matter (a Cambridge grad in English lit, and a former lecturer in linguistics ). She often describes people who pick holes in other peoples spelling and grammar, when being used in a casual context (i.e. internet forums, yes, we have discussed KB), as wearing a 'fur coat with no knickers'. In others words it's all show on the outside, often with nothing much to show underneath their arrogant/holier than thou exterior.

Yay to Biff's mum, for putting a name to these types of people! :niceone:......WAFCWNK lol *mental note must remember that*

[Beemer]

And then some of us are silly enough to get a job that involves writing full time. It's like doing homework 40 hours a week. :doh:

Snap! I also do a lot of editing and some people (teachers in particular) think I am crazy because I enjoy it. Personally, I would hate doing what they are doing!

I sat an exam last week too, thankfully it only had one essay question in it, the rest was all subediting, proofreading and layout. I'm so used to typing my notes then cutting and pasting to get everything in the right order so my essay could do with some sympathetic marking!

[Macktheknife]

I think this post
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52240
highlights the point perfectly.

[KATWYN]

Maybe this thread should progress to a tutoring area for writing skills etc.

There seem to be some pretty qualified people in Beemers thread... personally I have learnt things from reading this thread!

Its the ol " the more you learn the more you don't know" (speaking for myself anyway)

[Hitcher]

I was trying to say it's unrealistic to expect them to have great communication skills.

One wonders whether they can even understand themselves at times.

[peasea]

Maybe this thread should progress to a tutoring area for writing skills etc.

There seem to be some pretty qualified people in Beemers thread... personally I have learnt things from reading this thread!

Its the ol " the more you learn the more you don't know" (speaking for myself anyway)

Lost you there. Sorry.........
Can I read that as being......"smarten up, you fuckwit?"

............or did I misread it?

[90s]

One wonders whether they can even understand themselves at times.

"Without words, I am truly alone" - Alan Shore

[KATWYN]

Can I read that as being......"smarten up, you fuckwit?"

............or did I misread it?

:laugh: well that rules you out.