The new Pro Twins class

[FROSTY]

Just wanting to get a bit of feedback on the new pro twins class.
The rules to me look a heck of a long way from being a "stock" bike class.
Cam sprockets can be slotted.
Full aftermarket race fairings can be fitted.
Full aftermarket exhaust systems can be fitted.
Power comanders can be fitted
Aftermarket suspension front and rear can be fitted (stock externals on the front)
Wets can be used.-meaning spare rims will be neeeded in most cases

Doing the addition to have a cvompetative pro twins bike you'll need to spend around $5000.00 on the bike over and above what you pay for the basic ride

[Tim 39]

yes but if they were made to be completely stock it would be like watching classic tractor racing around a race track:zzzz:
I was a bit suprised at the power commander being legal I must say, I thought that was a wee bit far.

[slowpoke]

Just wanting to get a bit of feedback on the new pro twins class.
The rules to me look a heck of a long way from being a "stock" bike class.
Cam sprockets can be slotted.
Full aftermarket race fairings can be fitted.
Full aftermarket exhaust systems can be fitted.
Power comanders can be fitted
Aftermarket suspension front and rear can be fitted (stock externals on the front)
Wets can be used.-meaning spare rims will be neeeded in most cases

Doing the addition to have a cvompetative pro twins bike you'll need to spend around $5000.00 on the bike over and above what you pay for the basic ride

Let's see:
1. cam sprockets are easily drilled and slotted in your home garage.
2. aftermarket fairings are normally fitted anyway
3. I understand the stock exhaust system on an SV650 is very expensive and you can't just unbolt the can (has to be cut off) so most people would do this anyway, or hacksaw the OEM can off.
4. PC could be seen as extravagant
5. I remember a thread on here mentioning that stock suspension is not exactly ideal and modifications should be allowed for safety reasons
6. Not totally necessary if treaded tyres are the class rules

Which I reckon really only leaves the Power Commander, some dyno time and the extra rims as the "luxury" items. Not exactly exhorbitant but not the bare minimum either. Still sounds like cheap fun to me.

[Tim 39]

Let's see:
1. cam sprockets are easily drilled and slotted in your home garage.
2. aftermarket fairings are normally fitted anyway
3. I understand the stock exhaust system on an SV650 is very expensive and you can't just unbolt the can (has to be cut off) so most people would do this anyway, or hacksaw the OEM can off.
4. PC could be seen as extravagant
5. I remember a thread on here mentioning that stock suspension is not exactly ideal and modifications should be allowed for safety reasons
6. Not totally necessary if treaded tyres are the class rules

Which I reckon really only leaves the Power Commander, some dyno time and the extra rims as the "luxury" items. Not exactly exhorbitant but not the bare minimum either. Still sounds like cheap fun to me.
I agree with you there, to run completely stock would end up costing more, by the time you buy a whole new exhaust each time you crash!

[R6_kid]

so:
A second hand SV650k3+ is about 6-7K
Ohlins rear shock - $1100 or so
Fairings $600-700
PC3 - $500
Exhaust system - can only $500 or $1200+ for full system
Yoshi Cams - $1000 or more
re-sprung front end... or can you use GSXR600 or similar item?

Looking at minimum $10k on track costs to be 'in the mix'

But what i think the main gain will be is that the field will be relatively more fair than F3 where some people were running bikes with $20k+ spent and some running on bog standard road items with race fairings.

[Tim 39]

you cant run the GSXR600 forks because they have to be the standard outers (conventional)
I think $10k isn't too bad for a nationally competitive bike that age

[codgyoleracer]

I am with you Frosty on that one, stock is stock - (think streetstock class & only allow a few more things in).
Obvious items to allow: Fairings replacement but keep stock shape but allow fiberglass race type, slip on exhust can only & stock air filter, stock intake & airbox so that fueling doesnt need changing.
Internal changes only to front & rear suspension.
Treaded road tyres only of an approved type (all brands have a proper road sport tyre to suit (rather than the cut slick masquerading as road tyre, which are dodgy in the wet). How hard can it be for MNZ to nominate the range allowable in tyres Paul Pav is very capable of making a call on what is appropriate from each of the popular suppliers.
Brake pads & oils/fluids open. Gearing changes allowed. + allow crash bungs.

Allow removal of stuff like instruments, lights, indicators, number plates

EVERYTHING else stock, which includes pegs, rearsets, levers, frame & subframe, underseat trays & batteries, throttle body & cabling, clutches, All engine internals, radiators, charging system & starter operational, no de-looming, bars, wheels, discs, callipers, brake lines, fuel tank, front seat, chain size all stock, pump fuel,

People that claim that some of these limitations to mods are unsafe should remember that the bikes intended for this class are mostly modern & reasnobly well behaved when set up right.

If you want to do a bunch of other mods & go faster then move up to full F3 spec machine which allows you to "expand" your imagination. Or look at 600;s or superbike.

Oh and also add the statement to the rules "All items not mentioned must be as per the original road going motorcycle" + maybe even nominate a weight minimum maybe to stop serious lightening of the bike in "out of view " places.
Scales are cheap & its a real easy thing to check - Maybe no more than 15% under the stated manufactures weight for the motorcycle ?

The idea being is that someone (if they wish) can literally turn up on their road bike , strip some stuff off it & go racing............at minimal cost & race against similar powered & similar weight machines.
If you allow all the other stuff - the list & the expense just goes on & on & on. Believe me - you can spend a small fortune building a bike & keeping within "rules".
If you allow to many changes to these machines people will just look at them & realise A) They cant afford the time or cost to build a specialist race bike B) They wont be competitve on their "road bike"

The key question being - is this class targeted at attracting new people into road racing ?, or is it simply another race class for the existing road racers to "spread out into"' - Meaning smaller classes overall..............

All the above is off the top of my head & no doubt a lot of other stuff could be commented on, the rules are in place now & at least we can move on from there.

Glen :sick:

[GSVR]

In some ways the rules are good as you can buy a brand new bike take all the road subframes etc off it then thrash the hell out of it on the track for a season then fit all the nice clean undamaged roadbits back on it and sell it as a mint low mileage roadbike.

Can't believe I just said that.

[svs]

i think they're pretty good. at no point did anyone say it was a 'no modifications' class. What they've got here is pretty much a bare minimum which is whats been pointed out above.

Need to do suspension for safety reasons (i think that's been discussed here many times). rear shocks on these bikes are non rebuildable, so you need to replace. stick different spings and emulators up front and all is well.

Reason you need a PC is cos if you just bolt on a race exhaust, then your mixture will be all wrong. what's the cheapest and easiest way to fix with a fuel injected bike? A Power Commander.

And aftermarket fairings are much cheaper than trashing your road plastics.

Spare rims - well that's up to you.

Still a damn cheap way to get into national level racing

[codgyoleracer]

i think they're pretty good. at no point did anyone say it was a 'no modifications' class. What they've got here is pretty much a bare minimum which is whats been pointed out above.

Need to do suspension for safety reasons (i think that's been discussed here many times). rear shocks on these bikes are non rebuildable, so you need to replace. stick different spings and emulators up front and all is well.

Reason you need a PC is cos if you just bolt on a race exhaust, then your mixture will be all wrong. what's the cheapest and easiest way to fix with a fuel injected bike? A Power Commander.

And aftermarket fairings are much cheaper than trashing your road plastics.

Spare rims - well that's up to you.

Still a damn cheap way to get into national level racing


Note the key question as to where the class is targeted in my boring spiel......, originally it was mooted to operate as a class to get people started in road racing & give young riders a chance without to much bike prep needed. Stuff that is simple to many "power commander etc etc" is gobbldy gook & scarey to a beginner

[avgas]

I don't like stock class. they wouldn't let me ride in streetstock - mainly cos some of the big guys whined.
How about a 800cc single/650 twin class?? would be quite exciting.

[RG150&SV650#96]

LET THE CHEATING BEGIN!
I was all for the idea of standard sv class i currently have a standard sv 650 tht I have been racing for the last year.

Who is going to police this class??
this class was heading in the rite direction of sumthing good.

[limbimtimwim]

Note the key question as to where the class is targeted in my boring spiel......, originally it was mooted to operate as a class to get people started in road racing & give young riders a chance without to much bike prep needed. Stuff that is simple to many "power commander etc etc" is gobbldy gook & scarey to a beginnerAny motorcycling racing is expensive. I cannot believe the amount of money I have spent getting my RVF and gear in state to race. And this is just for Clubmans B! Anyone interested in racing knows what a power commander is. And if their bike has carbs, they know that some fiddling is likely onces that standard muffler comes off.

Pro twins, to me, appears to be a moderately cheap way of getting into racing. You should be able to spend only so much on a pro twins bike before yours is just as good as the best bike in the field. In say F3 you could just pour money into your bike and still comply with the rules.

If I didn't have a good 400cc bike already, I'd be there next year in pro twins, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun with a playing field level for as many people as possible. Less worries about finding HP and tweaking suspension, more time out there out-skilling your opponents.

At least, that is how it appears to me.

[FROSTY]

Codgy said it so much better than me.
The INTENT was a production based class.
MUFFLER replacement for economy reasons.-The cop out that you have to cut off the factory muffler to me is just that.
Replica of FACTORY fairings for economy reasons. So you WOULD be able to get glass copies of factory fairings FOR THAT BIKE
DIRECT replica of pegs and bars for economy reasons.-so brackets n pegs cast here in NZ would be fine as long as they sat in factory position
Some suspension upgrading for safety reasons--Limited
How all the extra stuff found its way in Has me baffled.
Seems to me that basicly BAR the USD front end most of the F3 bikes on the track now would be allowed in Pro Trins

[sAsLEX]

Are pegs and bars that big a cost? I mean road bikes are not really designed for 50 degree lean angles race bikes can get so I would of thought most race classes would allow rear sets?

[FROSTY]

Rear sets--The F1 engineering ones cost-400 then add clipons--100-200
It all adds up.
The 20 year old who pays his 6-11k for a bike has to shell out over 4k for ":aftermarket"bits

[codgyoleracer]

Its surprising sometimes how well priced standard OEM stuff is (especially if it from wrecked bikes). Things like the front fairing mount brackets are actually cheaper as an OEM part than a aluminium 'race" item. + becuase they are made of steel - they can be easily straightened & repaired if needed.
I tend not to agree regarding the suspension mods, the ones allowed can get damm expensive, are difficult to install for a beginner (except rear shock exchange) + we need to remember the length the races that these bikes will typically be doing 6-8 laps at club level a maybe double that at nationals. Standard shocks dont get that unstable/inconsistent after this length of race time - well at least not to the point of being "unsafe".

[sAsLEX]

Rear sets are simple. Two holes in a piece of ali for the mounts and one for the peg. Shit take me about 2 seconds to design some, and about a day of cursing and hammering and hacksawing and filing to make me some.

If you want to bling it up go ahead but it needn't cost an arm and a leg.

[HenryDorsetCase]

there is a SV650 on tardme at present in ProTwins trim for $12000.

I think thats pretty reasonable TBH

[slowpoke]

Racing costs money, end of story.

If you haven't got much money you race a bucket or streetstock. If you are casual or exploring the idea of racing with a bigger bike then you have a crack in Clubman's, which is perfect for those with road bikes. So it's not like there aren't options for people with a limited budget or who just want to get a taste.

If you think "yep, I want to get a bit more serious" then I don't think it would come as a suprise that you are also expected to show a bit more financial and bike prep commitment if you want to be at the pointy end.

Having said that I don't see why someone can't rock up to the track with a road bike and minimal prep and excel if they have genuine talent. Look at how Darryl (DSS3) used to show up on his R1 with OEM suspension, OEM fairings etc and ride rings around full on race bikes. That boy could ride and it showed. Same goes for the Pro Twins class, where I reckon a modicum of talent will outshine a worse rider with a Power Commander.

I reckon riders usually underestimate the amount of grip they have with full wets and overestimate their essentially road tyres so there will more than likely be a cost saving associated with fewer crashes if full wets are allowed.

The exhaust rule makes the bikes a more marketable prospect for both spectators, sponsors and participants alike. If they sound great then more people will watch, more people will want to get involved and more sponsors will want to get on board.

[HenryDorsetCase]

the other thing to be borne in mind is the other stuff you need...

car able to tow a trailer (or access to both), or a van, plus some spares plus decent kit and tools etc. Sky's the limit obviously but if you're buying say $7k minimum?

[roogazza]

Its surprising sometimes how well priced standard OEM stuff is (especially if it from wrecked bikes). Things like the front fairing mount brackets are actually cheaper as an OEM part than a aluminium 'race" item. + becuase they are made of steel - they can be easily straightened & repaired if needed.
I tend not to agree regarding the suspension mods, the ones allowed can get damm expensive, are difficult to install for a beginner (except rear shock exchange) + we need to remember the length the races that these bikes will typically be doing 6-8 laps at club level a maybe double that at nationals. Standard shocks dont get that unstable/inconsistent after this length of race time - well at least not to the point of being "unsafe".

My sentiments exactly Glen , I didn't have a problem with Prod bikes , imagine the precious comments on safety if newbies had to ride H2's and the like ????? Harden up ! Gaz.

[GSVR]

there is a SV650 on tardme at present in ProTwins trim for $12000.
I think thats pretty reasonable TBH

Its actually considerably cheaper than that in Pro Twins trim. Has lots of good bits on it as well.

So the interesting question is why hasn't someone brought it as its been on there a long time now?




the other thing to be borne in mind is the other stuff you need...

car able to tow a trailer (or access to both), or a van, plus some spares plus decent kit and tools etc. Sky's the limit obviously but if you're buying say $7k minimum?

Didn't realize all the other expenses. How much is a set of wets and slicks and how many meetings will I get out of them?

[Fatjim]

Some of you guys are pretty narrow minded. If I got on a stock SV650 my weight would make the sucker unsafe. In fact, pretty much any stock bike is unsafe with me on it. We aren't all 5'8" skinny wankers. Some of us have some meat on our bone.

Plus, any weight restriction should be with the rider and measured after the race. I'm sick of this "the bike should weigh such and such".

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Some of you guys are pretty narrow minded. If I got on a stock SV650 my weight would make the sucker unsafe. In fact, pretty much any stock bike is unsafe with me on it. We aren't all 5'8" skinny wankers. Some of us have some meat on our bone.

Plus, any weight restriction should be with the rider and measured after the race. I'm sick of this "the bike should weigh such and such".

very random. nobodys made mention of weight restrictions or skinny riders??
weird..

this class is cheap motorsport, sure you can hand over $7000AU and ride a yammy fz6 in the yammy cup but you at the end of the season you dont own the bike. At least after handing over 6-10k you own the bike after the season and as Gary has mentioned, put the shiny OEM components back on and sell the bike as a low km minter! hehe only ever ridden on sundays, lady owner blah, blah

[DEATH_INC.]

I think some of you guys lose your perspective on cheap.....if you can't slot your own sprokets and make up your rearsets, and often already own a car and trailer (real world) then all the extra mods will get expensive....we wanna race, but often have families and other commitments.... a cheap class is a great idea but it needs to stay that way. Fork internals and powercommanders aren't necessary and nor are ohlins rear shocks or even wets if everyone is on the same tyre. if you wanna race a modded bike f3 is there for ya. And stock classes are often the best closest racing out there anyhoo.....

[xwhatsit]

I don't like stock class. they wouldn't let me ride in streetstock - mainly cos some of the big guys whined.
How about a 800cc single/650 twin class?? would be quite exciting.

<hints id="hah_hints"></hints>Where can I buy this 800cc single that you speak of?

I'm a non-racer. However, how far off the pace are you going to be with no Power Commander, stock exhaust, standard suspension etc? Is it going to make that much difference? Surely as somebody else said, rider skill will make much more difference than that.

At any rate, buying a trailer you can leave out of the equation -- even if you race a bucket you need some way of getting your bike to the track.

[Drew]

I think the only questionable rule, is the Power Commander, and even that isn't a prohibatively expensive upgrade.

The suspension changes are limited, A full fairing conversion save engine damage when ya crash.

Rearsets saves the track being dug up by standard pegs grinding around corners.

Having said all that, I went out this weekend, on a bike not yet up to pro twins spec, (Which is where we'll be stopping the mods), and ran with the hotrods. Showing that the power comander doesn't give you enough advantage to walk away with the race.

[GSVR]

I think the only questionable rule, is the Power Commander, and even that isn't a prohibatively expensive upgrade.

The suspension changes are limited, A full fairing conversion save engine damage when ya crash.

Rearsets saves the track being dug up by standard pegs grinding around corners.

Having said all that, I went out this weekend, on a bike not yet up to pro twins spec, (Which is where we'll be stopping the mods), and ran with the hotrods. Showing that the power comander doesn't give you enough advantage to walk away with the race.

Youll have to point out the Hotrods as the hotest SV there was Kyle Keys one and the only advantage that had was the Gixxer front end as the motor is bog standard. When an SV with 10HP more than standard and a good rider turns up youll know.

[Drew]

Youll have to point out the Hotrods as the hotest SV there was Kyle Keys one and the only advantage that had was the Gixxer front end as the motor is bog standard. When an SV with 10HP more than standard and a good rider turns up youll know.

Oh, I was under the impression I was up against played with bikes. My bad.

Not sure if the ten hrses would be fully advatageous on the damp tracks, but I guess I'll find out soon enough.

[98tls]

Racing costs money, end of story.

If you haven't got much money you race a bucket or streetstock. If you are casual or exploring the idea of racing with a bigger bike then you have a crack in Clubman's, which is perfect for those with road bikes. So it's not like there aren't options for people with a limited budget or who just want to get a taste.

If you think "yep, I want to get a bit more serious" then I don't think it would come as a suprise that you are also expected to show a bit more financial and bike prep commitment if you want to be at the pointy end.

Having said that I don't see why someone can't rock up to the track with a road bike and minimal prep and excel if they have genuine talent. Look at how Darryl (DSS3) used to show up on his R1 with OEM suspension, OEM fairings etc and ride rings around full on race bikes. That boy could ride and it showed. Same goes for the Pro Twins class, where I reckon a modicum of talent will outshine a worse rider with a Power Commander.

I reckon riders usually underestimate the amount of grip they have with full wets and overestimate their essentially road tyres so there will more than likely be a cost saving associated with fewer crashes if full wets are allowed.

The exhaust rule makes the bikes a more marketable prospect for both spectators, sponsors and participants alike. If they sound great then more people will watch, more people will want to get involved and more sponsors will want to get on board. Great post slowpoke,fairings,power commanders etc wont help a mediocre rider compete with a guy with talent,you see it many times even road riding with guys riding the latest and greatest but just holding others up through the good roads.

[GSVR]

Oh, I was under the impression I was up against played with bikes. My bad.

Not sure if the ten hrses would be fully advatageous on the damp tracks, but I guess I'll find out soon enough.

We all want more power and less weight but ultimately everyone ends up spending/wasteing lots of cash to get an advantage when if little or no mods where allowed you'd get more racers. Its just great to have racing where bikes and riders are evenly matched. It makes for good racing for the riders and spectators and can only be good for the sport.

[Hellraiser]

It is possible to make a class like this affordable by having things like control tyres, disallowing fuel injection, keep the bikes all the same so that it comes down to rider skill rather than how big your wallet is.

Motor Sport NZ have been doing it for years with classes like the Pro 7's etc .... etc

For me it would go something like this .....

Dunlope Sponsor the series there for the control tyre is a Dunlope XXXX and is purchased at cost price from the supplier.

Lets say Virgin Mufflers is also a Sponsor of the series there for all the bikes must run one of his mufflers again sold to the riders at a discount.

Brake Pads are supplied by someones else and must be the same for all bikes and again are supplied at a heavly discounted price.

etc ....etc

Now if someone was really onto it they may even be able to get some of the big manufactures behind it like Kawasaki & Suzuki (abit like the ford & holden thing in the super cars) get them to supply mechanics for race weekends, help people with set up issues etc ... etc keeping everyone on a level playing field.

None of these are my ideas its really just stuff that Motorsport NZ's being doing for awhile now.

It seems to me that motorcycling NZ is trying to reinvent the wheel.

At the end of the day Motor Sport does cost money but it can be alot cheeper than is is now.

My 0.10 worth .....

[slowpoke]

There are some good idea's in Hellraisers post.
It's been done overseas by that bloke Summkunt but we don't seem to have a NZ relative of Summkunt to co-ordinate things.
Having said that it must be a nightmare for organisers to try and get something off the ground. Even getting a feel for what racers want is a mission in itself. If you polled the race community most wouldn't wouldn't see a new class as applying to them so wouldn't respond. Of those that did respond most would reply in a way that would best suit them rather than the sport overall.
There is also the difficult decision of what we are actually trying to achieve with the new class: are we trying to get the maximum number of bums on seats or are we trying to give riders a chance to learn basic skills. By taking the adjustability out of a class are we doing riders a disservice? By having to set up a new shock and/or forks are we better setting them up for the future?

[TonyB]

we wanna race, but often have families and other commitments.... a cheap class is a great idea but it needs to stay that way. Fork internals and powercommanders aren't necessary and nor are ohlins rear shocks or even wets if everyone is on the same tyre.
Too true! I know that well known racers with years of experience have made the comment that suspension upgrades are necessary for safety, buuuuut I reckon if everyone is on the same bike, with the same tyres and the same suspension, then you'll all have the same problems. So the outer limit of handling performance is the same for everyone- if someone pushes too hard, they'll find out pretty quick, and so will the guys that try to follow, so everyone will run up against the same problem and will have to back off. This is what happens with the Street Stock series- you have loads of talented young riders pushing hard on bikes with pretty average handling, but there's no carnage, because the limit is the same for everyone.

A standard suspension rule would only become a problem when someone cheats. Then they'll be able to push that much more, and the guys behind may well crash trying to keep up. Keep the rules tight and you'll have great racing on a sensible budget.

[oyster]

I think Saturday at Levels was New Zealands first true Pro Twin class racing.
Mixed with 125GP and F3, the combined feild totalled about 35 bikes.
And a 16 year old, first time on an unfinished ER6 smoked the lot of them, except fellow 16 year old Gregor Stevens on the 125GP, just at the end of the race when Tom's clutch was giving greif. Top result methinks, for Pro Twins, and the rise of the young'uns. The next bike home was another pro twin, with a 17 year old on board.
I've been helping prepare Tom's bike, and it was dropped around today for a bit more. I couldn't believe how totally stuffed the rear tyre is after only 3 races. It still has the standard rear shock, the new one is not far away thank goodness. This confirms the idea of keeping standard suspension is quite wrong, the bikes will just destroy tyres. It'll be interesting to see the tyre life when a good shock, well set up, is fitted.

[TonyB]

Hmmm, I forgot about tyre life. Good point

[k14]

Yes he and Anthony both went well. Also there was another guy up front on his ER6 (can't remember his name) doing alright. Not sure if the other couple of 650's up there were to pro twins spec or not.

Do you know why tom decided to go for pro twins as opposed to 125? Of course I'm biased but I would have thought that 125 is where you'd be encouraging the streetstock "graduates" to go to.

[Sparky Bills]

So since they finally have their own class. Are they allowed to cross enter into F3/2 still?

If so, whats the point of the new class?

[k14]

So since they finally have their own class. Are they allowed to cross enter into F3/2 still?

If so, whats the point of the new class?
They are run in F3 at club level, motorcycling canterbury doesn't allow cross entering at club events.

[Drew]

So since they finally have their own class. Are they allowed to cross enter into F3/2 still?

If so, whats the point of the new class?

Because greedy pricks like me, want to get two titles at the same time.

But if your budget doesn't stretch to all the mods allowed in F3, you should still have a chance to win in a cheaper class is the reason I thought it was being started.

Perhaps also, closer racing forced by more equal machinery, makes for better viewing, ergo, more people should show up to watch, the up side of that is more money to the organisers and vendors, the upside of that is the sport grows, and so on, and so forth, untill hopefully, our top riders, are actually more competitive at an international level, then more races come here...

You should have the picture by now, it's a snow ball effect.

My two cents only, and who wants to listen to a crack ho anyway.

[johnsv650]

wheres your race report ?
how was the 125cc going ?

[johnsv650]

i think it was called "junior class"

[FROSTY]

Guys those of you that can remember back to the eightys or even early nightys will remember the heyday of 250 PRODUCTION racing.
I remember clearly being in grids of 40 or more bikes at NATIONAL level and having to qualify for a or b grade at club level.
The attraction being it was an ENTRY level class with NO modifications bar servicing allowed.
As I understood it this was the INTENT of the new pro twins class

[evol mas]

lets face it guys winning in motorsport is expencive!
so you can either join them or go buy a pair of $100 nike football boots and take up soccer! iv spent $20 grand + of my own hard earnt money on my pro twin sv so far and i am an 18yo apprentice so if i can afford it you should be abel to aswell. you can either spend the money and go out with a fair chance at winning or have a basic bike and go out and have sum fun! and thats all ther is to it

[k14]

wheres your race report ?
how was the 125cc going ?
well no racing to report, apart from 3 warmup laps. Always the way, find out the problem after the last race of the day.

[Tim 39]

ahh the joys of 125's

[Drew]

lets face it guys winning in motorsport is expencive!
so you can either join them or go buy a pair of $100 nike football boots and take up soccer! iv spent $20 grand + of my own hard earnt money on my pro twin sv so far and i am an 18yo apprentice so if i can afford it you should be abel to aswell. you can either spend the money and go out with a fair chance at winning or have a basic bike and go out and have sum fun! and thats all ther is to it

It's cool that you're that dedicated to your racing bro, but the pro twin bike I was on over the weekend cost less than a quarter of what you say you've spent, and I came very close to achaiving the number one spot.
The money some people spend on machinery, would be far better spent attending every track day they can get to further thier riding I believe.

[limbimtimwim]

Guys those of you that can remember back to the eightys or even early nightys will remember the heyday of 250 PRODUCTION racing.For the day and age, those old 250s were quite a different kettle of fish from the modern 650 twins. They were much closer to proper race bikes than an SV650. I'd think an old 250 would be closer to 'race ready' out of the crate than an SV650.

[johnsv650]

what was wrong ?
friday was a good day to pratice....

[sAsLEX]

what was wrong ?
friday was a good day to pratice....

Water impeller stripped thread, or other way around.......

[GSVR]

It's cool that you're that dedicated to your racing bro, but the pro twin bike I was on over the weekend cost less than a quarter of what you say you've spent, and I came very close to achaiving the number one spot.
The money some people spend on machinery, would be far better spent attending every track day they can get to further thier riding I believe.

OK so for under $5000 you can build a bike just like Darkmans. Theres damaged SV650s going for under 2 grand every other week at Turners (Tui).

Well the bike that won all three races is for sale for only $10500. And after you sell off the K6 frontend and buy some SV rims to replace the marvics you probably have a bike for around 9.

I'm thinking around 9 is a reasonable figure for a ProTwin bike.

[roogazza]

The money some people spend on machinery, would be far better spent attending every track day they can get to further thier riding I believe.
Plus 1 for that comment Drew, You proved what I have been saying for ages, (great first effort by the way !) Get out there and ride the wheels off the things ! That is what Production racing was all about , and for what ? 5 grand !!!!!!! I didn't follow the lap times as they were probably down a bit ? But I 'm willing to bet you'll do well against tougher opponents ? Gaz.

[Drew]

OK so for under $5000 you can build a bike just like Darkmans. Theres damaged SV650s going for under 2 grand every other week at Turners (Tui).

Well the bike that won all three races is for sale for only $10500. And after you sell off the K6 frontend and buy some SV rims to replace the marvics you probably have a bike for around 9.

I'm thinking around 9 is a reasonable figure for a ProTwin bike.

The bike that won comes with a set of standard wheels, and the original front end, but that's beside my point, I WILL win against the better bikes, there is no question in my mind, because ten horse power, even if that does equat to 15% increase, is not enough to make a slower rider win.

It's all about testicular fortitude on the track, (figure of speach of course, the girls can do it too), better lines, better throttle control, and picking the best spot to pass, will prevail over a mere ten horses, even at Manfield, with its three enormous straights.

[evol mas]

The bike that won comes with a set of standard wheels, and the original front end, but that's beside my point, I WILL win against the better bikes, there is no question in my mind, because ten horse power, even if that does equat to 15% increase, is not enough to make a slower rider win.

It's all about testicular fortitude on the track, (figure of speach of course, the girls can do it too), better lines, better throttle control, and picking the best spot to pass, will prevail over a mere ten horses, even at Manfield, with its three enormous straights.

have you ridden at manfeild before?

[Drew]

Yep, I've been around Manfield quite a bit I suppose, three race meetings last year, and about a dozen track days over the years. (Thinking about it, maybe not that many track days, but between five and ten.)

Quite funny how you find better ways to get round a track, even tho you think you know it quite well.

[Tim 39]

people on here were pricing up bikes that were the very best and most competitive you can get and complaining about the price. Price up a very top, competitive 600!! or superbike thats competitive. These rules still mean this is a cheap class to race in, the rules allow racers to turn the cruiser designed bikes into quite good racers, I agree with what the rules allow

[Tim 39]

Guys those of you that can remember back to the eightys or even early nightys will remember the heyday of 250 PRODUCTION racing.
I remember clearly being in grids of 40 or more bikes at NATIONAL level and having to qualify for a or b grade at club level.
The attraction being it was an ENTRY level class with NO modifications bar servicing allowed.
As I understood it this was the INTENT of the new pro twins class

yea and were the factory ignitions etc the factory bikes were running "standard"? I doubt it. I bet the top 5 bikes had big money spent

[FROSTY]

Tim- as long as there is motor sport there will be those that push the boundrys of the rules. THAT IS EXACTLY my point. By having an established available level of modification already its so much easier to cheat
No disrespect dude but I'm one of those thats "been there done that" back in the 250 proddy days.I strongly suspect Glen williams is coming at it from the same angle.

[Tim 39]

MNZ are going to need to be quite strict on the rules, but without being obvious not a great deal can be done to get much of an advantage as far as I know. Power commanders are already legal and so are the cam modifications

[Drew]

MNZ are going to need to be quite strict on the rules, but without being obvious not a great deal can be done to get much of an advantage as far as I know. Power commanders are already legal and so are the cam modifications

Cam timing is free, lobe alterations are not, and although it is hard to check duration for modification, lift is simple.

The thing is, MNZ wont do a bloody thing about somebody cheating, untill somebody lodges a protest, which costs the persons bitching $500 I'm told.

[Kickaha]

The thing is, MNZ wont do a bloody thing about somebody cheating, untill somebody lodges a protest, which costs the persons bitching $500 I'm told.

I didn't think it was that much and if it's upheld I don't think it costs anything

[Drew]

I didn't think it was that much and if it's upheld I don't think it costs anything

$50 deposit to get the forms to fill in, but yeah, if you're right, it's free. I think that's how it works anyway.

[Tim 39]

I'm assuming there will be a tech inspection for these bikes at nationals, like the 600's. That's about the best way to control cheating

[roogazza]

This new class isn't there yet , but when things start getting competitive (like half a dozen fighting for the lead ! and a field of forty.) The cheating will be there ! In 410 production , if you had 3 more hp it was noticable !
Kiwi's are very inventive !!!!!!!!! Gaz.

[flame]

I can never understand why some people must cheat. At the end of the day they are only really 'cheating themselves':nono:. I hope that everyone gettin caught cheating gets there race licence banned permanantly.

It used to happen all the time in the equestrian world I competed in. So much doping of horses it wasn't funny:angry:. But they would shamefully be caught in the end. And any former glory they had was swept embarrassingly away from them. But knowing you had lined up in 2nd place to a 'scam' when the championship shoulda belonged to you was something that could not be 'undone'.

Oh well.....I guess a perfect world would be dull :yes:

[johnsv650]

people race to enjoy there riding and compare with results with others..

[Possum41]

The reason people will try and have that little bit extra over their competitors is because we are all competitive and want the top place on the podium. After all we racers arn't out there on race day for a sunday joy ride. I don't condone cheating and i decided to be different from the pack and try out the new Hyosung 650. So far so good and without second gear in the box have managed 2 2nd place finishes at Vic Club. So with more track days and a fixed gearbox(which will be ready by round 4) theres nothing stopping me dicing for the lead(sorry Glen but someone has to try and stop your clean sweep;)) and Drew i won't need to ride so defensivly just to keep you at bay. It means i can also maintain my position into turn 1 and not go from 3rd to 7th all the time.
I am all for this class as it means i don't need to spend mega just to be at the front of the field.

[Drew]

The reason people will try and have that little bit extra over their competitors is because we are all competitive and want the top place on the podium. After all we racers arn't out there on race day for a sunday joy ride. I don't condone cheating and i decided to be different from the pack and try out the new Hyosung 650. So far so good and without second gear in the box have managed 2 2nd place finishes at Vic Club. So with more track days and a fixed gearbox(which will be ready by round 4) theres nothing stopping me dicing for the lead(sorry Glen but someone has to try and stop your clean sweep;)) and Drew i won't need to ride so defensivly just to keep you at bay. It means i can also maintain my position into turn 1 and not go from 3rd to 7th all the time.
I am all for this class as it means i don't need to spend mega just to be at the front of the field.


Roll on race day!!! I'll get by you and Glen, and the pair of you can hold each other up while I ride away to victory:yes: lol. Kidding by the way.

See ya next month:Punk:

[codgyoleracer]

Hey Possum, good to hear that youll have that bike running closer to 100% at the next round, I dont have a bike at the moment - but hopefully will get it together in time.
On the ProTwins subject & working "within the rules" - As Roogaza ses the quick bikes will be noticable - but then a quick rider makes a bike "look " quick anyway. (a 1kph higher exit speed out of a slow corner gives 8-10kph more built up speed 300meters down the track). At that rate Drew should be entering Higgins at about 300kph +.........lol
Generally though the quicker riders tend end up on the quicker bikes & the differentials of speed & lap times is controlled by good bike prep, good suspension set up, $ spent + higher riding skill level. These all acentuate the speed diferences between the bikes in the field. This speed differential can easily be confused in a "standard class" as cheating.
Personally I dont believe that there is much cheating going on in New Zealand, bending the rules though is a little more common & this is driven by the riders willingness to experiment with modifications that "might not be cosha" or it could be driven by just plain ignorance of the rules.
What this protwins discussion is about to me is the level of changes that are "allowable" appears to open up the class to relativly modified bikes - rather than a true stock class. But as I have said before - this all depends on what type of "new rider" this class is supposed to be targeted at & also was this class ever mooted to be a "super-stock" rule class anyway ? :zzzz:

[Tim 39]

I'm of a similar opinion to you about the rules. I believe a completely stock class would suck. These bikes handle like crap out of the box because they're designed as tourers, the only stock road bikes that handle ok are the 150's because they dont have enough power to cause problems. When people get into racing I doubt they think it's cheap to be competitive, the reason they do it and work to pay for it is because it's so fun... with these mods allowed it will be lots of fun! (rather than scary like standard form)
The way I see it is that under the current rules this class will thrive

[Drew]

I'm of a similar opinion to you about the rules. I believe a completely stock class would suck. These bikes handle like crap out of the box because they're designed as tourers, the only stock road bikes that handle ok are the 150's because they dont have enough power to cause problems. When people get into racing I doubt they think it's cheap to be competitive, the reason they do it and work to pay for it is because it's so fun... with these mods allowed it will be lots of fun! (rather than scary like standard form)
The way I see it is that under the current rules this class will thrive

BOLLOCKS!!! They handle fine if you know how to read them, as does damn near any bike.

There are improvements to be had for sure, but saying they handle like crap is un educated drivell to my mind.

They aint scary, the limit is just there earlier than it could be.

A standard race class would be just as much fun as a modified class.

[Keystone19]

They aint scary, the limit is just there earlier than it could be.



I have to agree Drew. I've ridden both modified and standard SV650s and enjoyed both. It's just that you find the limits on the stock bike earlier than you do on a modified bike.

The protwin class is in its early days yet, I figure it won't be until after its had a season under its belt that we'll start to figure out some of the pros and cons to the allowable modifications. At least MNZ has made a decision and we have something to work with for the coming season.

[Tim 39]

when my mate had his in standard form, it was ok with the road tyres on it but when he went to race tyres and had more grip he started getting quite serious handling problems including squatting at the back making the front get quite loose on corner exits and also developed quite a nasty head shake when hard on the power (I was beside him a few times when all this was going on). I guess it depends on the rider and their riding style because without much adjustability its going to be better for some than others. Since he haas upgraded the suspension it hasn't been a problem, and it's been a far more friendly bike.
thats what I formed my opinion on anyway

[Keystone19]

Yup, I found all those things on the stock sv too...:shit:.

Makes for interesting riding at pace...

[Tim 39]

Yup, I found all those things on the stock sv too...:shit:.

Makes for interesting riding at pace...

I found it to be rather unpleasant riding close while all that was going on because on my little 125 I'd get nailed if he hit me (it looked rather out of control at times)

[Denniso]

Personaly I can't understand all the bitching , the class hase'nt even gotten off the ground yet , try it , I'm going to . As for cost even if I spend $15000 on a pro twin bike IT'S CHEAP . The other bonus is that some of the pigs that are running around as F3 bikes may be finaly able to be sent where they belong , the wreckers . If you are bitching about the cost you probably don't realy want to go racing anyway as you are far too lazy to get off your ass and do whats required to get the bike you want .

[Drew]

when my mate had his in standard form, it was ok with the road tyres on it but when he went to race tyres and had more grip he started getting quite serious handling problems including squatting at the back making the front get quite loose on corner exits and also developed quite a nasty head shake when hard on the power (I was beside him a few times when all this was going on). I guess it depends on the rider and their riding style because without much adjustability its going to be better for some than others. Since he haas upgraded the suspension it hasn't been a problem, and it's been a far more friendly bike.
thats what I formed my opinion on anyway

Fair enough, I tend to move my wieght around a bike more than most to keep it planted, so they may become less stable for someone not as monkey like.

[Paul B]

Personaly I can't understand all the bitching , the class hase'nt even gotten off the ground yet , try it , I'm going to . As for cost even if I spend $15000 on a pro twin bike IT'S CHEAP . The other bonus is that some of the pigs that are running around as F3 bikes may be finaly able to be sent where they belong , the wreckers . If you are bitching about the cost you probably don't realy want to go racing anyway as you are far too lazy to get off your ass and do whats required to get the bike you want .

I kinda like my little pig and it's not going to the wreckers as long as it still occassionally beats SV650's. ha ha

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Personally Im getting pretty excited by this class and I MAY have a brand spankers STOCK sv650k7 to play with at the next VMCC meet, cant wait! It'll be interesting on OE tyres to say the least!

I think this will be a great class

[Tim 39]

Personally Im getting pretty excited by this class and I MAY have a brand spankers STOCK sv650k7 to play with at the next VMCC meet, cant wait! It'll be interesting on OE tyres to say the least!

I think this will be a great class

to my knowledge they dont handle too bad on the stock tyres because you cant push it hard enough to get the problems as mentioned earlier (I've never ridden one on stock tyres but I've seen it done)

[Possum41]

Its like anything when you put upgrades on of course it will go better.
When i raced my Hyosung with stock suspension i chewed through front and rear tyres like they were going out of fashion so suspension upgrades were a definate in my mind.
Then the front brakes started fading early and you had to brake alot earlier so they definately had to be upgraded now i find it hard for people to out brake me into any corner.
Drew is right though even with those issues you still raced it but you were aware of the problems and worked around them, the only thing was you couldn't keep up with the other guys with mods.
By restricting the rules like MNZ have will make this class alot more competitive. When we race against the likes of Jason Easton and Jason Nairn who have spent in the 10's of thousands on their bikes it is impossible to even get near them let alone dice with them so good on MNZ for bringing in this class.

[oyster]

Personaly I can't understand all the bitching , the class hase'nt even gotten off the ground yet , try it , I'm going to .

The class HAS got off the ground, It's an official class in the Motorcycling Canterbury 7 round series, which kicked off on 21st July. At 7 entries, small numbers, but it will grow for sure. And for those interested, the star riders were a 16 year old, first time on an ER6, and a 17 year old on an SV 650.
They not only dominated Pro Twin, but thoroughly kicked the butts of the large F3 / 125GP feild as well! A day in Road Race history for Pro Twin and rising young talent.

[Robert Taylor]

BOLLOCKS!!! They handle fine if you know how to read them, as does damn near any bike.

There are improvements to be had for sure, but saying they handle like crap is un educated drivell to my mind.

They aint scary, the limit is just there earlier than it could be.

A standard race class would be just as much fun as a modified class.

They do handle very poorly ''out of the box''. Im sorry for saying it so brutally but if you think otherwise you may be either very misinformed, in denial or you have never ridden a properly set up bike with good quality suspension.

The intent of the rules very much had safety in mind.

How can a stock standard SV650 be safe when the forks blow violently through their stroke under hard braking, causing the rear end to unload very readily?

How can a stock Hyosung be competitive when they have about the worst rear shock in history? Only the North Koreans could conceivably build something worse... I beleive I might be qualified to comment as I have built a number of shocks for Hyosungs to replace the standard issue ''gap filling device''. Evidence Possums post about the tyre life issue, in fairness an issue for all of these level of bikes, irrespective of brand name.

Just how disadvantaged is a heavyweight rider going to be with stock springing and damping?

Where is the ride height adjuster to give more cornering clearance and to displace more load onto the front and also sharpen the steering?

How are the riders going to learn set up skills and maximise tyre life if they are not allowed to adjust what isnt there in the first place? As also effectively a feeder class it is important that riders learn set up skills for when they move on.

How are the riders going to afford replacing tyres much much more regularly because the stock suspenders are not doing their job?

Etc etc ad infinitum.

I could write paragraph upon paragraph about this but it is clear that the majority accept that a level of suspension modification is neccessary for safety and tyre life. AND IN FACT IS ALSO A LEVELLER.

[Sensei]

Now thats a Burn !

[FROSTY]

At no point was there ever an argument from anyone that the factory set suspension on most 650 twins is terrible.
That was the ONE modification I agree with provided the limits are firmly in place- I suggested right from the start a $ limit on rear shock and front internals
The other stuff is just nuts.Its stuff that is basicly impossible to police and I feel the class will end up gettting mixed in with F3 the difference is so small between a F3 bike and a Pro twins bike

[Tim 39]

That was the ONE modification I agree with provided the limits are firmly in place- I suggested right from the start a $ limit on rear shock and front internals
The other stuff is just nuts.Its stuff that is basicly impossible to police and I feel the class will end up gettting mixed in with F3 the difference is so small between a F3 bike and a Pro twins bike

I think they would have trouble policing the $ figure for suspension upgrades, because what $ are we talking about? retail or how much one aquired it for? no one can see inside forks without taking them to bits so who knows what's inside them?
I believe the technology has improved since 250 proddy and the like so we should go with it. A power commander doesnt cost all that much, wets are a bit of a safety issue also. The other "production" class closest to this, 600's allow many modifications also and it's doing very well (keeping in mind it's a more serious class than the 650's so hence the expense)

[Drew]

I fully respect your opinion mate, you are the guru.

What I'm saying, is that the bike is not an uncontrolable pig the way it's made out to be.

The forks do compress real quick, but it's easy to compensate by braking a tad early, but not as hard.

I'd llike to explain why I think the way I do on this subject, I come from a very different school of riding. I learnt to road ride on a 1984 GSX250, whit swing arm bearings so flogged out, I couldn't tighten my chain because it would crab down the road, I moved onto a Titan 500 Suzi, it flexed with new bearings.

You get the idea, I learnt to ride around the pitfalls of what I was on, so to me, the SV is very impressive when taking the reputation into account.

Sensie, when you comin back down here man, I'll show you what a burn is buddy.

[Sensei]

I'm sure you can Drew , have fun now adays at 42 & 56 bikes owned that I'm still here & ride quick enough to pass a Butterfly road a corner LOL , Had a great time with Deano , Jimbo600 Mikey & Fatjim chasing them through unknow roads down there on my K3 1000 then riding home the same day 1300ks there & back . May stay down there this time . Enjoy been given the learn by young skilled riders was there once myself .

[Robert Taylor]

I fully respect your opinion mate, you are the guru.

What I'm saying, is that the bike is not an uncontrolable pig the way it's made out to be.

The forks do compress real quick, but it's easy to compensate by braking a tad early, but not as hard.

I'd llike to explain why I think the way I do on this subject, I come from a very different school of riding. I learnt to road ride on a 1984 GSX250, whit swing arm bearings so flogged out, I couldn't tighten my chain because it would crab down the road, I moved onto a Titan 500 Suzi, it flexed with new bearings.

You get the idea, I learnt to ride around the pitfalls of what I was on, so to me, the SV is very impressive when taking the reputation into account.

Sensie, when you comin back down here man, I'll show you what a burn is buddy.

My riding days started in the 70s on similiar ( no ) suspension and I didnt think much about it then. But on a racetrack people do get hurt with deficient suspension.

We are no longer in the 70s, for better or worse. And despite the best efforts of the thieving control freaks ruining this country we should resist all tendency to develop third world attitudes.

[Robert Taylor]

My riding days started in the 70s on similiar ( no ) suspension and I didnt think much about it then. But on a racetrack people do get hurt with deficient suspension.

We are no longer in the 70s, for better or worse. And despite the best efforts of the thieving control freaks ruining this country we should resist all tendency to develop third world attitudes.

My late night response was quite ''kneejerk''. But suffice to say;

1) The actions of the self serving ''we know whats best for you'' dropkicks in Wellington IS affecting the expendable income of ordinary everyday people ( most of us ) That colours our thinking and in our own little world the ( agreeable ) need to set limits on allowable mods in controlled racing classes. I need not remind everyone that NZ is now a country of high taxes and levies, with real wage rates approximately one third less than our nearest neighbour. A market flooded with cheap imports has destroyed much of our industry that would otherwise productively employ people.

We have become shopkeepers selling goods from sweatshop industries in other lands, we have become property speculators on the back of foreign money we have sold our souls for. Is that a sustainable economy? I think not. It is just as well that our dairy industry is thriving at present on the backs of high demand and commodity prices, otherwise we would be looking pretty sad, in short order. But just imagine if we had a low tax regime and the incentive to work for good wages and do something productive?

The politicians always mess it up to serve their own ends but we could be a great country with high wages and much higher living standards, as opposed to the game of charades we have endured over the last few decades.

This affects everything we do, including motorcycling.

2) Since the 70s frame geometry has become more aggressive, tyre sizes and grip transmit a lot more load into the suspension, as does the massively increased power outputs. Bikes are also lighter and therefore more sensitive to surface irregularities.

But in spite of that, base spec models are equipped with 1950s suspension technolgy, and then we attempt to race them!

Arguably motorcycles of many different capacities cost just as much to make because there are just as many parts and just as much time spent assembling. But smaller capacity models must be seen to be cheaper so lower spec components that are much cheaper to make are fitted. First call on that is most often the suspension.

Hence the abysmal suspension performance of all of these models, especially when we try to push the envelope.

Although some will accuse me of trying to feather my own nest I think that on balance common sense has prevailed with respect to the supension mods allowable in this class.

[johnsv650]

hi,
its safer .......
in life you get what you pay for,
the best is the usually the most expensive, but cheaper if you fall off once because of shit suspension.... whats a paint job and tank worth now days?
more than a quality shock????? and the tyre saving???? and more fun ????
ohlins is worth it, but don't tell the competition.....lol

[steveyb]

Re:R Taylor.... Here bloody here!!!

Regards
Steve

[Drew]

I just want to say, I'm not trying to argue a point here, all that you've said about suspension is spot on to me, I was just trying to say, I find the handling of a stock SV quite ridable. I know full well it will be safer and superior when replaced.

I would also like to say, there are riders out there, who should spend more time on riding technique, than they do money on go fast bits. My opinion only, and certainly not as experienced as yours, but the biggest safety feature on a motorcycle, is between the riders ears, and should be correctly informed before all the flash gear in the world will make the slightest difference.

[Tim 39]

I would also like to say, there are riders out there, who should spend more time on riding technique, than they do money on go fast bits. My opinion only, and certainly not as experienced as yours, but the biggest safety feature on a motorcycle, is between the riders ears, and should be correctly informed before all the flash gear in the world will make the slightest difference.

I fully agree with you there, a lot of people get carried away getting trick bits before they can ride properly. I agree with the rules because it's up to the riders to decide what they need, and its good that the people who are limited by the rules can get the extras they need. Frosty believes more standard would be better, but I think what the rules are now is best... personal opinion

[FROSTY]

Drew mate I gotta tell ya if you rode a SV with apsolutely factory suspension then Im blown away.
I took a near new SV for a ride today>MEIN GOTT.Within its limitations yep it was fine but its limits came up mighty fast.

[Drew]

Drew mate I gotta tell ya if you rode a SV with apsolutely factory suspension then Im blown away.
I took a near new SV for a ride today>MEIN GOTT.Within its limitations yep it was fine but its limits came up mighty fast.

Did the test day on it completely stock, had no hassles, raced on an Ohlins rear, wasn't valved for the track, but was notably better.

[FROSTY]

Did the test day on it completely stock, had no hassles, raced on an Ohlins rear, wasn't valved for the track, but was notably better.
The back stock I could live with--But the front gee willikers waay too soft.

[Robert Taylor]

I just want to say, I'm not trying to argue a point here, all that you've said about suspension is spot on to me, I was just trying to say, I find the handling of a stock SV quite ridable. I know full well it will be safer and superior when replaced.

I would also like to say, there are riders out there, who should spend more time on riding technique, than they do money on go fast bits. My opinion only, and certainly not as experienced as yours, but the biggest safety feature on a motorcycle, is between the riders ears, and should be correctly informed before all the flash gear in the world will make the slightest difference.

Yes, we are pretty much on the same page in many respects. An interesting point here....several years ago we took a stock standard TL1000R to Pukekohe. Present to ride it were Brian Bernard ( top road racer ) and Jonathan Bentman ( Then Kiwi Rider editor and an average rider, hes no longer here to defend himself on that assessment! )

Both did many laps on the stock suspension at stock settings as familiaristion. The settings were then optimised and they set lap times. Following that an Ohlins rear shock, complete fork set and steering damper were fitted.

Brian Bernard improved his lap time by over a second per lap, huge at Pukekohe with so much time spent on the straights. Bentman improved by nearly 3 seconds!

The message here is that a top rider has a much more enhanced perception of feel and can push much closer to limits. But an average rider will benefit more from the improvement because the good quality, high performance components give a much higher level of confidence.

Have you ever seen those ads on TV demonstrating the increased stopping distance that a car has with worn shock absorbers? You can see the front end of the car uncontrollably dive through its stroke and then ''aftercycle''. I liken stock SV suspension to that. Even worse, try a panic stop on a GN250.....you dont always have the choice of riding within the limitations. And its therefore nice to know that there is a higher margin of safety, essential on our roads crowded with lots of ill handling worn tin tops from Japan.

[FROSTY]

Robert--I see the point you are making.BUT Its an unfair comparison.
I concider myself a rider somewhere between the two examples you quote.
During a track day on EXACTLY the same bike with the same sertings I will usually easily drop a second a lap over the day when Ive been on the track within the month.
If say (like now) Ive spent a month or two out of the race bikes saddle I'd expect to drop 3-5 seconds a lap during the day.
As the bike wasn't set back to the factory settings -or a back to back comparison made with a factory setupbike I can't see this as a fair comparison.

[Pussy]

With the comparison being done using an EXCELLENT rider like Brian Bernard, it's a very fair one

[Drew]

Robert--I see the point you are making.BUT Its an unfair comparison.
I concider myself a rider somewhere between the two examples you quote.
During a track day on EXACTLY the same bike with the same sertings I will usually easily drop a second a lap over the day when Ive been on the track within the month.
If say (like now) Ive spent a month or two out of the race bikes saddle I'd expect to drop 3-5 seconds a lap during the day.
As the bike wasn't set back to the factory settings -or a back to back comparison made with a factory setupbike I can't see this as a fair comparison.

I am not trying to be a prick here Tony, but I would not put you somewhere between those two riders, your bike has seen a lot of time spent on it by set up guru's one of which I heard tell you he could win on the bike after he took it round Taupo the way it is, and you came back of the track moaning about it doin things wrong.

It's your riding style that improves by a second a day, nothing to do with set up.

Roberts comparison is about guys who FEEL the difference in bike abilities, then apply it.

[FROSTY]

Yep I came in complaining I went out unsure of how the bike would feel and it felt bloody terrible --Then THE ONLY suspension guru that had ridden and set up my bike patiently (ok who am I kidding not very patiently at all) explained to me that I had to start Pushing the bike to get the benifit of his setup-that it would feel bad at slow speed -The faster I went the better it worked.
I got refamiliarised with my bike and my lap times started to come down
What Robert SAYS is that as the suspension improved over the day as a direct result lap times dropped.
Im saying that lap times WILL fall as you get laps down on a bike and get more familiar with it.
Imnot denying improved suspension will let you go faster Just that the cards were stacked in the aftermarket suspensions favour

[Drew]

Yep I came in complaining I went out unsure of how the bike would feel and it felt bloody terrible --Then THE ONLY suspension guru that had ridden and set up my bike patiently (ok who am I kidding not very patiently at all) explained to me that I had to start Pushing the bike to get the benifit of his setup-that it would feel bad at slow speed -The faster I went the better it worked.
I got refamiliarised with my bike and my lap times started to come down
What Robert SAYS is that as the suspension improved over the day as a direct result lap times dropped.
Im saying that lap times WILL fall as you get laps down on a bike and get more familiar with it.
Imnot denying improved suspension will let you go faster Just that the cards were stacked in the aftermarket suspensions favour

This is getting well off topic I think, but the antagonist in me cant be beaten down at this tasty morsel.

Try it the other way around then, take your bike out in two sessions, then put it back to near standard, and see if you can achieve your best "trick bike" lap times. The only argument you could present, is that a better rider might make the standard laps better than your trick ones, which I've done to death, but it's unlikely you'll do it yourself.

[FROSTY]

Yea BUT IT WASNT DONE--so its impossible to know.Thats my point.
You cant say how much of the improved lap times was suspension and how much was just laps on the track unless there is a "control" bike to ride which there wasn't.

[cowpoos]

Yea BUT IT WASNT DONE--so its impossible to know.Thats my point.
You cant say how much of the improved lap times was suspension and how much was just laps on the track unless there is a "control" bike to ride which there wasn't.
I think your just arguing for the sake of arguing now frosty...Drew has made a decent point as much as it pains me to say that,[because we often are disagreeing on points of topic]...

Back on topic anyone??? it was a interesting thread to read :)

[Robert Taylor]

Did the test day on it completely stock, had no hassles, raced on an Ohlins rear, wasn't valved for the track, but was notably better.

Wait till the forks are done and the rear valved......

[Robert Taylor]

Robert--I see the point you are making.BUT Its an unfair comparison.
I concider myself a rider somewhere between the two examples you quote.
During a track day on EXACTLY the same bike with the same sertings I will usually easily drop a second a lap over the day when Ive been on the track within the month.
If say (like now) Ive spent a month or two out of the race bikes saddle I'd expect to drop 3-5 seconds a lap during the day.
As the bike wasn't set back to the factory settings -or a back to back comparison made with a factory setupbike I can't see this as a fair comparison.

Frosty, sorry but your argumentative diposition re this subject is digging you a rather large hole, Id cut your losses and graciously accept that you are over the top on this.

I am well aware of back to back comparison errors. BUT, Brian Bernard has done more laps on TL1000Rs than anyone else in NZ and lots of laps around Puke,more than you have had hot dinners.

Both Brian and Jonathan did LOTS of laps around Puke ( and were consistent, especially Brian ) before we fitted the sexy Swedish suspenders. The very moment we did that their lap times dropped. Within accepted margins of error the result was conclusive.

[Robert Taylor]

it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep I came in complaining I went out unsure of how the bike would feel and it felt bloody terrible --Then THE ONLY suspension guru that had ridden and set up my bike patiently (ok who am I kidding not very patiently at all) explained to me that I had to start Pushing the bike to get the benifit of his setup-that it would feel bad at slow speed -The faster I went the better it worked.
I got refamiliarised with my bike and my lap times started to come down
What Robert SAYS is that as the suspension improved over the day as a direct result lap times dropped.
Im saying that lap times WILL fall as you get laps down on a bike and get more familiar with it.
Imnot denying improved suspension will let you go faster Just that the cards were stacked in the aftermarket suspensions favour

Well......actually stacking the cards against yourself is not very clever.

You are at least ''obliquely'' correct insofar as the front end is that which very first needs attention on the SV.

The rear also responds positively to a good quality aftermarket shock that is CORRECT for it. This will give an improvement in mechanical grip and ride height control etc etc. Moreover, such shocks have a length adjuster and the SV positively responds to ''jacking the rear'' This gives several benefits, in conjunction with a proffessionally set up front end...

1) More ground clearance and cornering bank angle.

2) More swingarm ''antisquat angle'' This resists chain pull torque a little better and in theory allows the spring preload to be softened a little in combination, helping sidegrip.

3) Sharpens up rake and trail for quicker front end steering and redistributes a little more weight onto the front end, improving front grip and feel

One end affects the other, they are absolutely not seperate entities.

And............back to that word CORRECT. As you may well recall I had a look at your bike at Paeroa nearly a couple of years back at your request ( no charge for a quick look, comment and tweak, that would be immoral ) I noted straight away that the Ohlins shock you had fitted ( intended for a completely different model ) was completly INCORRECT, Especially with respect to length. It was so short that the bike had the steering laziness of a Harley chopper.

There and then I gave you an indication of what would be required to rebuild it to the correct length, adjustment range and to set it up for you. But you subsequently chose to use someone in Auckland to do it by the ''bodge method'' someone who is not an Ohlins expert or privy to such information. Someone who hasnt expended hundreds of thousands of dollars in setting up technical support for a specialist product.

So you very much made your own bed and had to lie on it.....

I will help anyone who asks and I think it is best that people are informed why changes are made. What is a good setting for a top rider is not neccessarily correct for someone else....

[flame]

Wait till the forks are done and the rear valved......


hehehehe......he cant wait :)

And you guys are doing my forks for me too......and I CANT WAIT :yes::ride::woohoo:

[Tim 39]

it is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I like that quote! probably applies to me more than anyone else but thats not the point :innocent:

[TDC]

The one thing that hasn't been covered is that what is stock suspension performance anyhow?

The stock suspension's (was going to say performance) observable action changes so fast due to wear in the stock components (especially rear) that it raises the question of how to define what stock performance is in the first place?

Now lets consider cost driven mass productions techniques and then try and calculate what the odds of getting two bikes that handle even close to the same with stock suspension components on them are???

The reality is that this model bike will have varying suspension action ranging on some bikes from mushy but usable through to truly diabolical and the only variables will be production tolerances and what the bike has been used for and how since it was new.

So umm just how would you benchmark stock anyhow????

[Possum41]

Yea BUT IT WASNT DONE--so its impossible to know.Thats my point.
You cant say how much of the improved lap times was suspension and how much was just laps on the track unless there is a "control" bike to ride which there wasn't.


Heres one for ya, last year i started racing my stock standard Hyosung GT650R and decided to spend my money on setup and control rather than go fast. So RT built my ohlins shock but i didn't valve the forks. Result was considerable more tyre life from the rear and much more control resulting in faster lap times and top 6 finishes but the front tyre was chewing out something cronic and almost resulted in many low side crashes which does nothing for your confidence.
So this year we gold valved the forks and raised the oil level slightly (as these are the only mods available for the Hyosung), sorted out some ground clearance issues and continue to make improvements on suspension settings, result, i have very good tyre life, i'm beating my lap times every meeting and i'm taking my Hyosung to second place finishes.
Bear in mind that while i'm improving i havn't had second gear since the start of this Winter series so in order for me to remain competitive i've had to resort to better setup to maintain higher corner speed because i don't no of anyone who races, who would be cornering through hairpins and slow speed corners in third gear.
But you do what you have to do and you make what youve got work for you, if i still had my stock setup i would have pulled out of the series again as i did last year to try and improve the bike.

Remember Pirelli's moto = "POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL"

This is true on so many levels.

My 10c worth

[Tim 39]

Heres one for ya, last year i started racing my stock standard Hyosung GT650R and decided to spend my money on setup and control rather than go fast. So RT built my ohlins shock but i didn't valve the forks. Result was considerable more tyre life from the rear and much more control resulting in faster lap times and top 6 finishes but the front tyre was chewing out something cronic and almost resulted in many low side crashes which does nothing for your confidence.
So this year we gold valved the forks and raised the oil level slightly (as these are the only mods available for the Hyosung), sorted out some ground clearance issues and continue to make improvements on suspension settings, result, i have very good tyre life, i'm beating my lap times every meeting and i'm taking my Hyosung to second place finishes.
Bear in mind that while i'm improving i havn't had second gear since the start of this Winter series so in order for me to remain competitive i've had to resort to better setup to maintain higher corner speed because i don't no of anyone who races, who would be cornering through hairpins and slow speed corners in third gear.
But you do what you have to do and you make what youve got work for you, if i still had my stock setup i would have pulled out of the series again as i did last year to try and improve the bike.

Remember Pirelli's moto = "POWER IS NOTHING WITHOUT CONTROL"

This is true on so many levels.

My 10c worth
well said and you're a good example showing why these upgrades are so important (you will have got the monry back in savings from tyres anyway most likely) howcome you have no second gear?

[limbimtimwim]

I had a thought (Ouch..). Let's pretend Kawasaki started to produce an ER-6RR with flashy adjustable suspension (Maybe even Ohlins to keep RT happy) then riders on that bike could have an advantage if they knew what they were doing.

So allowing extensive suspension mods could also be viewed as a way of making different bikes more equal.

[Robert Taylor]

I like that quote! probably applies to me more than anyone else but thats not the point :innocent:

No Tim, dont beat yourself around. It was a generalised comment, if you like these examples of wit ( that I have merely found ) start reading the works of Winston Churchill.

[Robert Taylor]

I had a thought (Ouch..). Let's pretend Kawasaki started to produce an ER-6RR with flashy adjustable suspension (Maybe even Ohlins to keep RT happy) then riders on that bike could have an advantage if they knew what they were doing.

So allowing extensive suspension mods could also be viewed as a way of making different bikes more equal.

There is a Ohlins shock listing for that model but it is a basic spec. But apples for apples way better than the non compliant ''hold it up device'' in there.

We recently completed building our third fully adjustable road race specific Ohlins shock for ER6, hose reservoir type, independent rebound and compression adjustment, length adjuster and full backup.

Beware of the term ''fully adjustable'' when it comes to mass produced oem shocks, very misleading and ''generous''.

I had eluded in a previous post to allowing a certain level of suspension mods as being a leveller, for bikes that would otherwise be uncompetitive. Possums post is certainly testament to that.

And oh, wish Pirelli hadnt been the first to think of that awesome ( and so true ) statement.

Look at the McLaren Formula 1 cars, all motor outputs in F1 are very similiar, the McLaren chassis just transmits more of it to the track....

[limbimtimwim]

I had eluded in a previous post to allowing a certain level of suspension mods as being a leveller, for bikes that would otherwise be uncompetitive. Possums post is certainly testament to that.Oh yes, quite right, it is an excellent example. I was meaning by 'flashy fully adjustable' in the same way Yamaha made the R1-SP ;) .

I'm not saying any of the manufacturers will do that, but if they did, it could really stuff up a production based class that doesn't allow suspension mods.

[Possum41]

well said and you're a good example showing why these upgrades are so important (you will have got the monry back in savings from tyres anyway most likely) howcome you have no second gear?

Earlier in the year i did a couple of track days at Taupo and the gearbox decided to chew the dogs out on second gear so if anything it has forced me to change the way i ride and change my whole mentality towards riding just to stay with the front guys. Its quite demoralising qualifing on the front row only to get swamped off the start line and arrive at turn 1 mid pack, but on the other hand to make your way through the pack to finish 2nd is very rewarding on its own.

I now have a new gearbox going in this week so the theory is to continue doing what i've been doing except now i'll have full use of the gearbox which means trying for the holeshot into turn 1 and maintaining the lead or at least dicing for the lead either way its gona be fun

[Robert Taylor]

Oh yes, quite right, it is an excellent example. I was meaning by 'flashy fully adjustable' in the same way Yamaha made the R1-SP ;) .

I'm not saying any of the manufacturers will do that, but if they did, it could really stuff up a production based class that doesn't allow suspension mods.

The simple answer is that the world is run by number crunchers....mediocrity reigns supreme

[scracha]

Personaly I can't understand all the bitching , the class hase'nt even gotten off the ground yet , try it , I'm going to . As for cost even if I spend $15000 on a pro twin bike IT'S CHEAP . The other bonus is that some of the pigs that are running around as F3 bikes may be finaly able to be sent where they belong , the wreckers . If you are bitching about the cost you probably don't realy want to go racing anyway as you are far too lazy to get off your ass and do whats required to get the bike you want .

So your saying that unless you're prepared to remortgage your home, get a divorce, forgo all holidays, etc then you've no business racing even in the lower classes. We're talking about F3 and pro-twins club racing FFS, it shouldn't require a life-changing level of commitment. Perhaps that's why there's not a lot of young Kiwi riders coming through the ranks to the world stage. Perhaps that's also why there's so little interest in motorcycle racing in New Zealand. Perhaps that's also why there's a hell of a lot of guys and gals who only do one or two seasons racing.

If the bottom levels of CLUB racing in NZ require over 1/3 of the annual median salary to be remotely competitive then there's something wrong IMHO.

[Tim 39]

Earlier in the year i did a couple of track days at Taupo and the gearbox decided to chew the dogs out on second gear so if anything it has forced me to change the way i ride and change my whole mentality towards riding just to stay with the front guys. Its quite demoralising qualifing on the front row only to get swamped off the start line and arrive at turn 1 mid pack, but on the other hand to make your way through the pack to finish 2nd is very rewarding on its own.

I now have a new gearbox going in this week so the theory is to continue doing what i've been doing except now i'll have full use of the gearbox which means trying for the holeshot into turn 1 and maintaining the lead or at least dicing for the lead either way its gona be fun

It's probably been very good for your riding having it like that because it will push you to go so much faster so you can use third properly, not to mention passing practice from being so far behind off the start

[Tim 39]

So your saying that unless you're prepared to remortgage your home, get a divorce, forgo all holidays, etc then you've no business racing even in the lower classes. We're talking about F3 and pro-twins club racing FFS, it shouldn't require a life-changing level of commitment. Perhaps that's why there's not a lot of young Kiwi riders coming through the ranks to the world stage. Perhaps that's also why there's so little interest in motorcycle racing in New Zealand. Perhaps that's also why there's a hell of a lot of guys and gals who only do one or two seasons racing.

If the bottom levels of CLUB racing in NZ require over 1/3 of the annual median salary to be remotely competitive then there's something wrong IMHO.

the rules only allow the modifications to be done, theyre not compulsory. If you're only in it at club level there's no point spending the big money, but as always you cant expect to beat the national champions etc.
In the case you don;t want to spend much at all then there's bucket racing, streetstock and cheap (most likely buggered) old 400's etc.
The people that I have seen quit racing haven't been the dedicated ones anyway, they've been the people who expect to do no preparation, no learning but still turn up and win. Reality strikes, they don't win so they pack a sad, give up and go back to lapping up the main street because it doesnt require dedication, preparation or skill

[Robert Taylor]

So your saying that unless you're prepared to remortgage your home, get a divorce, forgo all holidays, etc then you've no business racing even in the lower classes. We're talking about F3 and pro-twins club racing FFS, it shouldn't require a life-changing level of commitment. Perhaps that's why there's not a lot of young Kiwi riders coming through the ranks to the world stage. Perhaps that's also why there's so little interest in motorcycle racing in New Zealand. Perhaps that's also why there's a hell of a lot of guys and gals who only do one or two seasons racing.

If the bottom levels of CLUB racing in NZ require over 1/3 of the annual median salary to be remotely competitive then there's something wrong IMHO.

Quite right, so if the ''creeping cancers'' of excessive taxation and those at the very top and the very bottom raping this countries future were removed then we might have a decent living wage, instead of falling further and further behind other developed countries. We want all the trappings of the rest of the world and are either unable or unwilling to pay for them.

Sadly, any Government that rattled this country to its senses would face certain electoral defeat.

[Robert Taylor]

the rules only allow the modifications to be done, theyre not compulsory. If you're only in it at club level there's no point spending the big money, but as always you cant expect to beat the national champions etc.
In the case you don;t want to spend much at all then there's bucket racing, streetstock and cheap (most likely buggered) old 400's etc.
The people that I have seen quit racing haven't been the dedicated ones anyway, they've been the people who expect to do no preparation, no learning but still turn up and win. Reality strikes, they don't win so they pack a sad, give up and go back to lapping up the main street because it doesnt require dedication, preparation or skill

Tim, I agree with your key words, dedication, preperation and skill. This is not a game of cricket on the back lawn.

[Robert Taylor]

So your saying that unless you're prepared to remortgage your home, get a divorce, forgo all holidays, etc then you've no business racing even in the lower classes. We're talking about F3 and pro-twins club racing FFS, it shouldn't require a life-changing level of commitment. Perhaps that's why there's not a lot of young Kiwi riders coming through the ranks to the world stage. Perhaps that's also why there's so little interest in motorcycle racing in New Zealand. Perhaps that's also why there's a hell of a lot of guys and gals who only do one or two seasons racing.

If the bottom levels of CLUB racing in NZ require over 1/3 of the annual median salary to be remotely competitive then there's something wrong IMHO.

Why is it that people never complain about the price of beer as voiciferously as complaining about the cost of motorcycle racing? Am I missing something?

[cowpoos]

Why is it that people never complain about the price of beer as voiciferously as complaining about the cost of motorcycle racing? Am I missing something?
I complain about the cost of beer and lack of TUI in bars in large city's fequently!! apparently it embaresses the people I'm with...I can't see how a round of drinks [5 people] can cost fricken $42....thats 2 X 18 packs of tui for the love of it!!!!!



it makes me sad :(

and bike racing doesn't need to cost the earth...buy a already built race bike... HP it over a million years...buy used but still good tyres...and fuel!! plus a few fee's...maybe the odd motel room?? add that up and divide to a daily amount it won't sound that bad...maybe?

[cowpoos]

I can't see how a round of drinks [5 people] can cost fricken $42....thats 2 X 18 packs of tui for the love of it!!!!!



and enough change for a couple of pies!!

[scracha]

Why is it that people never complain about the price of beer as voiciferously as complaining about the cost of motorcycle racing? Am I missing something?

If beer causes divorce, missing holidays, throwing sickes at work etc then you're an alcoholic.

If motorcycle racing causes divorce, missing holidays, throwing sickes etc then you're "dedicated"

[Tim 39]

If beer causes divorce, missing holidays, throwing sickes at work etc then you're an alcoholic.

If motorcycle racing causes divorce, missing holidays, throwing sickes etc then you're "dedicated"

exactly right! although alcoholic's are dedicated also, they've devoted their life to being a piss head

[ozrobo]

this twin class what ccs is it 4 just up to 650 or can the trx 850 be to big for this class

[GSVR]

this twin class what ccs is it 4 just up to 650 or can the trx 850 be to big for this class

Yeah too big only allowed up to 650cc. TRX would have trouble keeping up with a Hyosung 650 anyway.

[FROSTY]

Well......actually stacking the cards against yourself is not very clever.
I will help anyone who asks and I think it is best that people are informed why changes are made. What is a good setting for a top rider is not neccessarily correct for someone else....
Im sorry are you saying Tjebbe Bruin and Shaun Harris WEREN'T Qualified to set up my bike?
My bad

[Possum41]

Yeah too big only allowed up to 650cc. TRX would have trouble keeping up with a Hyosung 650 anyway.

Well i never thought i would see the day!!! is this a sign of you finally seeing daylight Gary and realising the champion of this class NOT going to be an SV!!! lol:rockon:

[Drew]

Im sorry are you saying Tjebbe Bruin and Shaun Harris WEREN'T Qualified to set up my bike?
My bad

Sarcasm does't help anyone dig thier way from a hole Tony. You are taking a lot of what's being said personally, when I think a more objective veiw will be benificial.

The thread has taken a turn towards the reasoning of replacing stock suspension. Most people on here are explaining how they see it, and RT is doing a pretty bloody good job of taking those thoughts, and explaining how it really is. (Even if he does keep putting his political opinions in the middle of it:dodge:)

[FROSTY]

After a full season on a badly set up bike.--I might add my own doing--I had got myself hopelessly confused.
Yes I did indeed use someone else--Someone I know has been improveing suspension for many years.I asked his advice happy to spend the money for a reengineered shock. I was advised otherwise going for a longer shock mount rather than a longer shock body.
I'm happy to say that Shaun Harris --after riding it several months after the lenthening --explained what was wrong with my bike and fixed it for me.
I explained to him that Robert had told me what was needed but after a ride He disagreed feeling that the shock on the bike worked fine.
I don't claim to be a suspension guru but I do have apsolute faith in Shauns word.

I must add my BIGGEST mistake was not asking Shaun to ride my bike 12 months earlier when I was 3-4 seconds off the Pukie F3 lap record.I believe now I would have saved myself a season of total frustration.

[Possum41]

After a full season on a badly set up bike.--I might add my own doing--I had got myself hopelessly confused.
Yes I did indeed use someone else--Someone I know has been improveing suspension for many years.I asked his advice happy to spend the money for a reengineered shock. I was advised otherwise going for a longer shock mount rather than a longer shock body.
I'm happy to say that Shaun Harris --after riding it several months after the lenthening --explained what was wrong with my bike and fixed it for me.
I explained to him that Robert had told me what was needed but after a ride He disagreed feeling that the shock on the bike worked fine.
I don't claim to be a suspension guru but I do have apsolute faith in Shauns word.

Advice is a very tricky thing.
Professionals are always advising us every day of different things we do in our lives and sometimes the advise IS different from one person to another.

We never like to admit when we are wrong because the facts we base our thoughts or actions on are from a professionals advice.

So we need to chose or experiment with each of those different points and see which one actually works for you and is more effective.

But that doesn't mean to say that the other professional was wrong it's just that his advise wasn't as effective.

The thing with suspension is that alot of people have alot of RIGHT ideas with what you should do with it and to be honest i also got myself so confused with setup that i decided to chose very carefully the good points that i thought would work and went with those.
I think i have a fair idea now and the bike seems to work good for me but who knows, as i start to strip more seconds away from my lap times it may mean i might have to make a few more adjustments. But for now i'm happy

[Robert Taylor]

Sarcasm does't help anyone dig thier way from a hole Tony. You are taking a lot of what's being said personally, when I think a more objective veiw will be benificial.

The thread has taken a turn towards the reasoning of replacing stock suspension. Most people on here are explaining how they see it, and RT is doing a pretty bloody good job of taking those thoughts, and explaining how it really is. (Even if he does keep putting his political opinions in the middle of it:dodge:)

Thankyou for clarifying what the thread is actually about! The points I were trying to reinforce to Frosty;

1) The correct and proper way of modifying the shock was told to him. He had it done by a cheaper method that the manufacturer of the shock would be horrified with. There are plenty of people posing as Ohlins specialists but very very few are privy to the actual training and factory information etc. The guy you mentioned is very good at many things but I wouldnt have done that sort of job. I am not looking for work but do like to see things done properly and ethically.

I used Frostys example because it is but one of many and it certainly / subsequently embellished his pre-amble to it.

Beleive me, I see ''shockers'' all the time.

2) Nothing wrong with having a top rider look at your bike, but as I have said it is important for the rider of the bike to have a higher level of set up knowledge. What works on day one at track one will not neccessarily work so well on day two at track two.

There is no magic setting that works well at every track in every condition, as I beleive a number of riders may well beleive.

3) Opinions are fine but I think it is prudent to be deadly sure of ones facts before submission of posts.

As for my politics, no argument about that. I simply see that our living standards are being compromised ( by both ''flavours'' ) and that reduces our expendable income for motorcycling. As a ''compassionate conservative'' I have a solid track record of helping out many riders at all levels, including a number of past championship winners who have had much of my time and loan of expensive product for no charge.


Cowpoos / Frosty ; September suspension set up seminar in Auckland?

[scracha]

Cowpoos / Frosty ; September suspension set up seminar in Auckland?

Why not do it at Taupo ?

[Drew]

Cowpoos / Frosty ; September suspension set up seminar in Auckland?

I'll be there, would get a real good turn out, if you do it at Taupo the day before the Actrix race meeting there.

Dunno how it normally works, if there is a charge, it could be bumped a bit to cover accomodation and booze for ya.

[Deano]

Beleive me, I see ''shockers'' all the time.


You should have seen the set up on my CBR400RR when I bought it. It had a CBR600 shock in it that was too long and it bottomed out on the linkage thingy. Whoever did the mod had ground into the linkage to try and stop it hitting.

I sent Graeme French ? (British CBR400 'guru') an e-mail about different options that would retain slightly higher rear ride height. He sells suspender set ups with all the ratios calculated correctly - being on a budget I opted to go back to a stock rear shock. Unfortunately it's not adjustable other than preload.

What was funny was that he said he would not be racing on my 'dodgy' set up (CBR600 shock) - it bottomed out a couple of times at Taupo (I know what that 'clunk' was now), but on the whole - I thought I was doing pretty well on it.

Doing even better now I reckon - have got a few 2nd's in postclassic junior and a 7th in F3 at VMCC.......not bad for a 'pig' that is obviously 'nearly buggered' as a couple of you have so callously mentioned. I had to reconsole the poor little baby after those posts.

$2,000 she cost me - and I'm having a ball.

I wouldn't say racing is cheap - but it can be done on a budget and still be fun and competitive.

[FROSTY]

Ok guys by MY doing this thread has gone off subject---Im sorry folks
I'll just add Im happy to admit Im no Suspension GURU --Because i had got myself so totally confused this season I have come to rely on the advice of other people.I Have Huge respect for Roberts knowledge as Ive expressed elsewhere

NOW--back to the pro twins class ------------------------:Punk:

[Robert Taylor]

Ok guys by MY doing this thread has gone off subject---Im sorry folks
I'll just add Im happy to admit Im no Suspension GURU --Because i had got myself so totally confused this season I have come to rely on the advice of other people.I Have Huge respect for Roberts knowledge as Ive expressed elsewhere

NOW--back to the pro twins class ------------------------:Punk:

Hey Frosty, dont shoulder all the blame! I did mention beer and politics. If I am wrong in any subsequent posts then I will happily fall on my sword.

Cold hard facts, no bu....it, no ego's.

What do you think of the proposal of a set up school at Taupo? Max 20 participants and not on the same day, merely a costs recoverable exercise.

[Robert Taylor]

You should have seen the set up on my CBR400RR when I bought it. It had a CBR600 shock in it that was too long and it bottomed out on the linkage thingy. Whoever did the mod had ground into the linkage to try and stop it hitting.

I sent Graeme French ? (British CBR400 'guru') an e-mail about different options that would retain slightly higher rear ride height. He sells suspender set ups with all the ratios calculated correctly - being on a budget I opted to go back to a stock rear shock. Unfortunately it's not adjustable other than preload.

What was funny was that he said he would not be racing on my 'dodgy' set up (CBR600 shock) - it bottomed out a couple of times at Taupo (I know what that 'clunk' was now), but on the whole - I thought I was doing pretty well on it.

Doing even better now I reckon - have got a few 2nd's in postclassic junior and a 7th in F3 at VMCC.......not bad for a 'pig' that is obviously 'nearly buggered' as a couple of you have so callously mentioned. I had to reconsole the poor little baby after those posts.

$2,000 she cost me - and I'm having a ball.

I wouldn't say racing is cheap - but it can be done on a budget and still be fun and competitive.

Well thats pretty candid and sincere, good on you. There will be a post about the pitfalls of mixing and matching shocks but you have described it very well so far. I want everyone to know more about these sorts of issues rather than many people frustratingly being left in the dark.

Because of our low income / high tax economy ( call this a political statement if you wish but is irrefutable fact ! ) not everyone can afford the latest bikes and high quality suspension components. I accept that but it frustrates me intensely how poorly people are paid and the ''smoke and mirrors'' that is going on.

So if people with training, great set up knowledge and experience can be forthcoming and helpful then it helps the sport as a whole.

And any resellers of product must be doing the right and ethical thing rather than looking at it as first and foremost a profit motive ( and to hell with the consequences attitude ) This includes private sellers.

If anyone disagrees with that please come forward and say so.

[slowpoke]

Doing even better now I reckon - have got a few 2nd's in postclassic junior and a 7th in F3 at VMCC.......not bad for a 'pig' that is obviously 'nearly buggered' as a couple of you have so callously mentioned. I had to reconsole the poor little baby after those posts.

$2,000 she cost me - and I'm having a ball.

I wouldn't say racing is cheap - but it can be done on a budget and still be fun and competitive.

Deano has nailed it right here: if you want cheap racing there are many and varied options available. He doesn't care that his mighty steed isn't the sharpest tool in the shed, he just rides it like 'Poos is chasing him for some man love and beats far more capable bikes.

Sure, Pro Twins isn't the cheapest class around but is that what it's designed to be? Surely the Clubmans, Buckets, Streetstocks, Post-classic classes already fill that role? Do we really need another lowest common denominator class?

I see the Pro Twins class as a bit more serious than the above mentioned classes and as such allows a few judicious mods to create serious race bikes.

[Possum41]

I believed the whole intention of this class was to provide a semi controlled class between any of the classes mentioned above and 600 super sport or super bike classes.

I think MNZ were trying to provide a "next step up" class for those who were looking at moving on from their current class but didn't have the money or the balls to go straight to F2 or F1.

There is no reason to suggest this class as being expensive. I believe that once you have put the initial cost of preparing the pro twins bike the only major expense should only be tyres, (unless you crash alot). And they should last a well setup bike around 4 to 5 meetings give or take.

And if you don't want to go through the hassle of preparing your own bike then buy someone elses who has already done the work, that should be a bit cheaper.

And if thats still coming out too expensive then you should look at developing your skills as a soccer player or a pro golfer or even a lead guitarist in a rock band.

Strike that comment, i look forward to this class and i'l put myself out there to help anyone develope and prepare their Hyosung GT650's as we have started to manufacture race parts for them and have the only set of fibreglass moulds in the southern hemisphere to date to provide race fairings.

Amen.

[moT]

im just glad the 650s are gonna be out of f3 :) give us 400s a chance

[GSVR]

im just glad the 650s are gonna be out of f3 :) give us 400s a chance

You might stand a better chance if you keep up with the current rules.
650s havent been kicked out of F3 and Protwins are legal F3 bikes.

The fastest 400 F3 bikes are actually bored out to 450 as the current rules still allow.

[skelstar]

Great thread guys...learnt a bit about suss stuff and a bit of bitching too. Cheers!

[GSVR]

The Carbed and Injected SV650's have different length dogbones and presumably different linkage arms. I was wondering if you could take an Ohlins shock out of a Carbed SV and put it into a Injected model and it would perform OK or is the difference really great.

[codgyoleracer]

Worked Ok on mine Gary, but the end eye might need threading to the full amount to gain back the small amount of ride height that the standard length carbd shock will add to the injected bike. Robert T will also be able to offer parts to shorten the body of the shock if required - however the difference is only 6mm or so. Dogbones can be changed - but you would need to trial these on the track to be sure. You do suffer from Ducks disease though aye - so you might want to be going in the other direction with the seat height......................:yes: Is there a new bike in the wings yet Gary ?

[GSVR]

No new bike. After extensive comparision of the frames (5min) of the SVs I reacon the old frame is the better of the two but unfortunately has bracing that won't allow the fitting of the injected engine to it.

[codgyoleracer]

Damm, Me & Terry are in big trouble then :gob:

[Possum41]

Worked Ok on mine Gary, but the end eye might need threading to the full amount to gain back the small amount of ride height that the standard length carbd shock will add to the injected bike. Robert T will also be able to offer parts to shorten the body of the shock if required - however the difference is only 6mm or so. Dogbones can be changed - but you would need to trial these on the track to be sure. You do suffer from Ducks disease though aye - so you might want to be going in the other direction with the seat height......................:yes: Is there a new bike in the wings yet Gary ?

I think he is trying to throw you off the scent glen, i really think garry has got a new Hyosung but just isn't admitting it yet:laugh:

Just the way he was helping me promote Hyosungs in a different thread the other day lol

[Possum41]

Got the new gearbox back today so the rebuild starts tomorow and my fairing guy gave me my new carbon kevlar fairings today so they will be on by next weekend:first:

[codgyoleracer]

Possum, - I,ve always had one rule in life. "Never race anything that you have difficulty pronouncing the name of......" :yes:

[Possum41]

No new bike. After extensive comparision of the frames (5min) of the SVs I reacon the old frame is the better of the two but unfortunately has bracing that won't allow the fitting of the injected engine to it.

Stop wasting your time Garry and come over to the other side where you don't have to worry about all that garbage just get a Hyosung and race, it's guarenteed podiums out of the box:Punk:

[Possum41]

Possum, - I,ve always had one rule in life. "Never race anything that you have difficulty pronouncing the name of......" :yes:

lol after several crash corses in korean language it will just roll off the tongue.
My rule is race something that will win!!! :scooter:

So i'm trying anyway

[moT]

You might stand a better chance if you keep up with the current rules.
650s havent been kicked out of F3 and Protwins are legal F3 bikes.

The fastest 400 F3 bikes are actually bored out to 450 as the current rules still allow.

even still they cant really keep up with the sv650 even if the 400s are done up to 70hp+ which is alot of work

[johnsv650]

hi possum,
i hope your carbon fibre fairings aren't for the race bike, when in doubt read the rules first...........carbons out, only fibreglass......
hows the front fairing mount going ? a spare or sell us one, my motor is nearly done i'm told....

[cowpoos]

Cowpoos September suspension set up seminar in Auckland?

Just waiting for Jas to give me a few dates and hopefully one of them will suit you.

[k14]

even still they cant really keep up with the sv650 even if the 400s are done up to 70hp+ which is alot of work
Oh really? So how did Andy Bowell win the NZ F3 champs last season on a zxr400???

[moT]

Oh really? So how did Andy Bowell win the NZ F3 champs last season on a zxr400???

hmm well ok i didnt know that but when i look at all the previous races in f3 in the vic club the sv650s are always the top 4

[Drew]

Oh really? So how did Andy Bowell win the NZ F3 champs last season on a zxr400???


hmm well ok i didnt know that but when i look at all the previous races in f3 in the vic club the sv650s are always the top 4

The pair of you do realise the bikes have riders on them aye?

Some talent is required to win on anything.

[Nicksta]

hmm well ok i didnt know that but when i look at all the previous races in f3 in the vic club the sv650s are always the top 4
thats probably cos they are 400cc bikes racing.... a 450 will kick a SV's ass...
you dont pay much attention to nationals do you?

[moT]

What bikes are supposed to have riders on them!! no wonder my bike hasnt won any races!! im supposed to be on it! it all makes sence now.

[moT]

thats probably cos they are 400cc bikes racing.... a 450 will kick a SV's ass...
you dont pay much attention to nationals do you?

not really i dnt have channel1 here..but thats nice to know theres a sv650 racing in clubmans now i wanna see how much faster it is... im haveing adrenalin withdrawls

[GSVR]

The pair of you do realise the bikes have riders on them aye?

Some talent is required to win on anything.

So thats how come the best you did was second last round:second:.

Just taking the piss. You'd better get a win next round.

[moT]

So thats how come the best you did was second last round:second:.

Just taking the piss. You'd better get a win next round.

lol Hey i had to start from the back of the grid!!! oh and i will... i willll:devil2:

[Possum41]

hmm well ok i didnt know that but when i look at all the previous races in f3 in the vic club the sv650s are always the top 4

Hey Tom you beta look again they ain't all SV's my Hyosung is sitting in 3rd overall at the moment!!!!:nono:

Jared Wintle is doing just fine on his 400 aswell, admitedly he can't keep up with the front 650's but he is beating the rest, and to put things into perspective, 2 of us dicing at the front of the class this year were both dicing with jared and sometimes beaten by him last year, its just that this year i bought me some bigger balls:Punk:

[Possum41]

So thats how come the best you did was second last round:second:.

Just taking the piss. You'd better get a win next round.

Sorry drew garry meant to say second is a fantastic placing for you, you can't have the wins if i'm on top of the podium:first:

[Possum41]

hi possum,
i hope your carbon fibre fairings aren't for the race bike, when in doubt read the rules first...........carbons out, only fibreglass......
hows the front fairing mount going ? a spare or sell us one, my motor is nearly done i'm told....

Hi john, the carbons are for the remainder of our winter series as Pro twins rules don't apply yet, and then the fibreglass ones go on.

As for the front mount i havn't made any yet but il make a point of getting onto it.

How are you going to get on with your engine?? i thought you were having it rebuilt to the same specs as your SV which means it won't be pro twins either??

[slowpoke]

Tut tut tut, so much thinkin' goin' on inside the square....what we need is some good ol' fashioned CHEATIN'!!!!

[cowpoos]

Tut tut tut, so much thinkin' goin' on inside the square....what we need is some good ol' fashioned CHEATIN'!!!!
I've got that covered Spud!!! ordered the SV650 stickers for my bike today!! :)

[steve74]

this thread raises some valid points and has been a great help to me. I decided to seriously look into the idea of racing a ProTwin in the hope of bringing back the thrills i experienced in the 250 proddie days. I ran a club level RGV in the early/mid 90s on a bike/tire budget of under $6000. Although i was never going to keep up with those guys with the big cheque books or the guys with armpits full of real tallent, i run happily within a group of half a dozen riders all about the same speed and ability. it was a cheap way of giving it your all on a budget machine. I was hoping that i could pick up a SV for around $6 -8 grand, fit some sticky tires, adjust the suspension and go. I now Know this is not going to be the case, and can see why fitting better suspension and a power commander is nessasary. I do not have great wads of cash lying around and see food on the table as a higher priority than racing. I do love my racing and have to make sacrifices. A less powerfull bike will be my sacrifice. Still im sure that on a budget of under $8000 i could still have fun on a slightly modified yet slower bike. if the class is going to be flooded with riders then i will have fun dicing for a top 10 finish while the cheque book racers, trophy snatchers and real talented guys provide the specticle up front. besides it will get me off my 15yr old RGV and may encourage me to spend some more $$$ as time go's on.

my 10 cents worth, thanks for the info. im gonna give it a go!!

steve

[Tim 39]

this thread raises some valid points and has been a great help to me. I decided to seriously look into the idea of racing a ProTwin in the hope of bringing back the thrills i experienced in the 250 proddie days. I ran a club level RGV in the early/mid 90s on a bike/tire budget of under $6000. Although i was never going to keep up with those guys with the big cheque books or the guys with armpits full of real tallent, i run happily within a group of half a dozen riders all about the same speed and ability. it was a cheap way of giving it your all on a budget machine. I was hoping that i could pick up a SV for around $6 -8 grand, fit some sticky tires, adjust the suspension and go. I now Know this is not going to be the case, and can see why fitting better suspension and a power commander is nessasary. I do not have great wads of cash lying around and see food on the table as a higher priority than racing. I do love my racing and have to make sacrifices. A less powerfull bike will be my sacrifice. Still im sure that on a budget of under $8000 i could still have fun on a slightly modified yet slower bike. if the class is going to be flooded with riders then i will have fun dicing for a top 10 finish while the cheque book racers, trophy snatchers and real talented guys provide the specticle up front. besides it will get me off my 15yr old RGV and may encourage me to spend some more $$$ as time go's on.

my 10 cents worth, thanks for the info. im gonna give it a go!!

steve

good on ya! so We'll be seeing you at ruapuna later in the year then will we?

[Possum41]

this thread raises some valid points and has been a great help to me. I decided to seriously look into the idea of racing a ProTwin in the hope of bringing back the thrills i experienced in the 250 proddie days. I ran a club level RGV in the early/mid 90s on a bike/tire budget of under $6000. Although i was never going to keep up with those guys with the big cheque books or the guys with armpits full of real tallent, i run happily within a group of half a dozen riders all about the same speed and ability. it was a cheap way of giving it your all on a budget machine. I was hoping that i could pick up a SV for around $6 -8 grand, fit some sticky tires, adjust the suspension and go. I now Know this is not going to be the case, and can see why fitting better suspension and a power commander is nessasary. I do not have great wads of cash lying around and see food on the table as a higher priority than racing. I do love my racing and have to make sacrifices. A less powerfull bike will be my sacrifice. Still im sure that on a budget of under $8000 i could still have fun on a slightly modified yet slower bike. if the class is going to be flooded with riders then i will have fun dicing for a top 10 finish while the cheque book racers, trophy snatchers and real talented guys provide the specticle up front. besides it will get me off my 15yr old RGV and may encourage me to spend some more $$$ as time go's on.

my 10 cents worth, thanks for the info. im gonna give it a go!!

steve

Good on ya steve, this is exactly who and what this class is targeting. MNZ have given people a great alternative that can be affordable. Great to hear.

[Keystone19]

thats probably cos they are 400cc bikes racing.... a 450 will kick a SV's ass...


Bollocks. A nicely worked SV will be on an even par with a 450 and the Nationals demonstrated that well.

[johnsv650]

bollucks...........................
what can you do to make the sv go faster?

[Tim 39]

bollucks...........................
what can you do to make the sv go faster?

going to levels on Saturday?

[Keystone19]

bollucks...........................
what can you do to make the sv go faster?

What can you do to make an SV go faster than a stock SV? Is that the question? Heaps! I'm talking a worked F3 SV not a protwins SV.

[limbimtimwim]

What can you do to make an SV go faster than a stock SV? Is that the question? Heaps! I'm talking a worked F3 SV not a protwins SV.I dunno about an SV, but to speed up a Hyosung, you need only to remove the hot air from the rider..

:dodge::dodge:

;) Bad LBTW: :Offtopic:

[Robert Taylor]

Bollocks. A nicely worked SV will be on an even par with a 450 and the Nationals demonstrated that well.

Thats correct, the very 450 that won being the most highly developed one in the country. But it was really the role of the dice and who had the bad luck whether it was Andys Kwaka or Terrys SV that was going to take the title. Throw in Jason Nairns improving form,''The Gimp'' on tight tracks and a few promising / emerging newcomers. Look at Jills results at the last round of the Nationals, embarrassing a good many blokes behind her. It made for an interesting class.

MNZ have got the formula for the Pro Twins class largely correct, the allowable mods in fact allow a wider cross section of makes and models to be competitive. For example the neccessity to fit suspension that actually works on a Hyosung, Possum has been very candid and descriptive about that.

Highly / overly restricted ( i.e completely stock ) classes effectively become one make classes.

Evidence the Toyota racing series, a very restricted control class and extremely boring.

[scracha]

Bollocks. A nicely worked SV will be on an even par with a 450 and the Nationals demonstrated that well.
Yeah, but they're Suzuki's they'll be less reliable than a 20 year old 400.

[FROSTY]

Front end of the national F3 Feild---Fitzgerald--Injected SV Nairn-Carbed SV,Bowel--ZXR450, Jason on the tigcraft 400.
Back in the baxk end was MOI on my sv hammer and tongs with a guy on the ex terry Fitzgerald gixxe4r450---My bike definitely diddnt have better legs in a straight line

[cowpoos]

Back in the baxk end was MOI on my sv hammer and tongs with a guy on the ex terry Fitzgerald gixxe4r450---My bike definitely diddnt have better legs in a straight line

or you had lower corner exit speed...and or...your bike's setup doesn't alow you to get the power down as earily as him...

[Deano]

or you had lower corner exit speed....

Maybe overall corner speed ?:shutup::yes:

[Possum41]

I dunno about an SV, but to speed up a Hyosung, you need only to remove the hot air from the rider..

:dodge::dodge:

;) Bad LBTW: :Offtopic:

I only speak of the truth and the results speak for themselves, have a look at the vic club website to see where my Hyosung is placed in the series at the mo!!!

GO THE HYOSUNG!!!!!

[Possum41]

Yeah, but they're Suzuki's they'll be less reliable than a 20 year old 400.

Somebody really dosn't like Suzuki's!!!
Let me know when you get your Hyosung scracha

[Drew]

Sniff sniff, next weekend will be my last on baord Darkmans SV:bye:


So I could be doin the last two rounds on another mates bike.


Shit, what did I ever do to deserve mates like these aye? Top bunch to be sure.:first:

[moT]

the 650s still produce soooo much more torque than a 450 that has to account for something and there newer, better built and lighter

[cowpoos]

the 650s still produce soooo much more torque than a 450 that has to account for something and there newer, better built and lighter
are they better built and lighter???

torque does make the 650's easier to ride apparently? [I havn't raced a SV or a 400 so I'm not totally qualified to coment]

[slowpoke]

Thats correct, the very 450 that won being the most highly developed one in the country.

Yep, and something that seems to be conveneiently ignored is that while Andy Bolwell's luvverly lil' ZXR is obviously a weapon, it didn't get that way by accident or just by throwing bucketloads of cash at it. Just 'cos you spend a lot of money on something doesn't mean it's not a lemon. As Dr Taylor will have seen first hand a badly setup Ohlins "whatever" is gonna be far worse than a well setup OEM equivalent.
It takes a lot of effort and experience to develop a successful bike in this kind of formula and it's no coincidence that the main protagonists in the class, Andy and Terry Fitzgerald, have been around longer than most.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep, and something that seems to be conveneiently ignored is that while Andy Bolwell's luvverly lil' ZXR is obviously a weapon, it didn't get that way by accident or just by throwing bucketloads of cash at it. Just 'cos you spend a lot of money on something doesn't mean it's not a lemon. As Dr Taylor will have seen first hand a badly setup Ohlins "whatever" is gonna be far worse than a well setup OEM equivalent.
It takes a lot of effort and experience to develop a successful bike in this kind of formula and it's no coincidence that the main protagonists in the class, Andy and Terry Fitzgerald, have been around longer than most.

Ten out of ten to this man, you can indeed spend the cash but you still have to make it all work. A badly set up bike with all the bling will be slower than a well set up bike with rather less bling. A clever, experienced rider on an average bike will beat an average rider on a bike with all the bling etc etc.
But, a fast rider on a fast bike with fully optimised bling will streak away from the field. Etc etc

[sAsLEX]

Ten out of ten to this man, you can indeed spend the cash but you still have to make it all work. A badly set up bike with all the bling will be slower than a well set up bike with rather less bling. A clever, experienced rider on an average bike will beat an average rider on a bike with all the bling etc etc.
But, a fast rider on a fast bike with fully optimised bling will streak away from the field. Etc etc

The old 80:20 rule. A rider makes 80% of the equation.

[Robert Taylor]

The old 80:20 rule. A rider makes 80% of the equation.

NOT QUITE, look at how Craig Shirriffs had to ride the wheels off his GSXR600 during the last road race season. Same if not a little more ability than Sam Smith, same suspension, same tyres, slower motor. If anything the Suzuki handled and stopped a little better than Sams Yam.

In terms of that little comparison I would say the 80 / 20 rule is rather ''generous''

Conversely, you get road riders who have oem suspension and are faster over a given stretch of road than a guy with the same bike and all the bling suspenders. Then there is the great ego trip ''I dont need flash suspension''

The actual truth being that the guy with the flash suspension is a slower and more timid rider, but imagine how faster the fast guy would be with flash suspension optimised for him.

So much is about ego and one upmanship, and far less about analysing and fairly assessing the cold hard facts.

[sAsLEX]

NOT QUITE, look at how Craig Shirriffs had to ride the wheels off his GSXR600 during the last road race season. Same if not a little more ability than Sam Smith, same suspension, same tyres, slower motor. If anything the Suzuki handled and stopped a little better than Sams Yam.

In terms of that little comparison I would say the 80 / 20 rule is rather ''generous''


Rossi in the first year at Yamaha, along with his crew chief and his abik=lity to spell out technical issues succinctly to the engineers he took an under performing bike to victory.

This year the Duke has the speed, and Rossi has still managed to get past it a few times, though the tires seem to be the main issue this year......

[scracha]

Let me know when you get your Hyosung scracha

Viffer 750 and fizzy 400 are up for sale in another thread to help fund my Korean bike search.

[Possum41]

Viffer 750 and fizzy 400 are up for sale in another thread to help fund my Korean bike search.

seems my hard work has payed off, i only needed to change the life of one person to feel fulfilled.
Life ambition #7 - check

GO THE HYOSUNG

[cowpoos]

This year the Duke has the speed, and Rossi has still managed to get past it a few times, though the tires seem to be the main issue this year......


this is where I think people are not seeing clearly... WHY is the Duke faster???
I don't think it is now...first few race's there was a clear HP advantage...not now...there is one Duke at the pointy end of the championship,just one!!...and how many other bikes????
What it is...is Casey and his team are working the best this year!! most consistant...with probally the best,most acurate comunication!
the Duke ain't some freak fast bike...otherwise there would be 4 of them at the front of the field and championship!

[Deano]

So much is about ego and one upmanship, and far less about analysing and fairly assessing the cold hard facts.

You said a mouthful there Robert.

I am astounded sometimes by the amount of smack talk that goes on in the motorcycling world, and in particular the sports bikes (not just racing). All good in jest, but some of these fools actually believe their own press.

There is much more BS than I found in the kickboxing scene, then again, if you went up to a fighter and smack talked to them, you just might get smacked yourself. :laugh:

[Drew]

Mate, there is a huge psychological game in play with any sport, and part of it, (for me anyway), is talking yourself up. I did take it a bit far at the hill climb, but it worked.

If you dont think you're gonna win, you probably wont. Some people I'm sure, can just think it to themselves with a quiet smirk, but others need to say it out loud, as a way of commiting themselves to thier goal.

How I see it anyway:first:

[Sketchy_Racer]

I with ya drew

So you better watch out when i come back to racing and clean up the F2 class on my lil 125!!

a top 10 placing was no effort, and im still 3 seconds off my goal lap time, so thats should put me in contention for the top 3..

As long as those fat lazy 600 can learn to get out off the fucking way mid corner. god, i could walk faster than thier mid corner speed!

[Deano]

Mate, there is a huge psychological game in play with any sport, and part of it, (for me anyway), is talking yourself up.

You think I don't know that ?

But it's pointless when the people you are trying to psych out think you're full of shit. Works in their favour then I reckon. And do you reckon the smack that is talked up on here has any effect ? Not on me it doesn't. It just makes me laugh and wonder whether the person really believes it...sort of like the shit KD comes out with !!

I dunno - I guess in kickboxing it paid to be humble, cause if you talked it up, then got a hiding, you looked like a cock.

p.s. this doesn't apply to you anyway cause you can back it up !

[Drew]

You think I don't know that ?

But it's pointless when the people you are trying to psych out think you're full of shit. Works in their favour then I reckon. And do you reckon the smack that is talked up on here has any effect ? Not on me it doesn't. It just makes me laugh and wonder whether the person really believes it...sort of like the shit KD comes out with !!

I dunno - I guess in kickboxing it paid to be humble, cause if you talked it up, then got a hiding, you looked like a cock.

Na bro, the fear of talkin it up and not delivering the goods, is what makes ya try harder. Doesn't always work tho, wait till ya see Poos eatin humble pie when I wipe the floor with him.

[Deano]

Na bro, the fear of talkin it up and not delivering the goods, is what makes ya try harder. Doesn't always work tho, wait till ya see Poos eatin humble pie when I wipe the floor with him.

Two sides to the coin. As you say it doesn't always work.

It's a broad spectrum and I guess my point was aimed at those that, no matter how hard they try, they ain't gonna deliver the goods....not in the near future anyway.

[Darkman]

There is much more BS than I found in the kickboxing scene, then again, if you went up to a fighter and smack talked to them, you just might get smacked yourself. :laugh:

True, and nobody in M.A cares about a barking dog..I always found it was the quiet ones you had to look out for..those are normally the ones that bite!!! But on KB its more a pisstake than anything else...all good fun.

[Deano]

But on KB its more a pisstake than anything else...all good fun.

It's a few real life instances where it wasn't piss taking that made me think WTF ? :gob:

[Darkman]

It's a few real life instances where it wasn't piss taking that made me think WTF ? :gob:

Oo..like when I said i can make better coffee than you?

[Deano]

Oo..like when I said i can make better coffee than you?

You backed it up...even if it was out of a sachet....and is a bit ghey...

I guess smack talking must work - I mean, take Stroudy for example.....:rofl:

[skelstar]

Oo..like when I said i can make better coffee than you?

I bet you can't make me a pizza better than I can...will be home soon to find out (Italiano please!)

[Drew]

I bet you can't make me a pizza better than I can...will be home soon to find out (Italiano please!)

Get him to make me and Vicki some too.

[Darkman]

I bet you can't make me a pizza better than I can...will be home soon to find out (Italiano please!)

Well I do have my italian cap on at the mo, but more the mafioso style one for the Ex is coming over soon. Bet I can cut it better than you!!

[scracha]

Get him to make me and Vicki some too.

So are you and Flame getting some tricolour leather's to go with the bikes?

[flame]

So are you and Flame getting some tricolour leather's to go with the bikes?


Now that would be telling! have to save something to surprize ya's :)

[cowpoos]

wait till ya see Poos eatin humble pie when I wipe the floor with him.

Ya know the funny thing bro...I couldn't give two shits if ya beat me...but I pretend to...coz ya bite...and if you beat me...I would still smack talk ya... because bud...thats what you and I do!!! almost from the instant we meet...we smack talked and debated...about anything! and you love it! and you know I do aswell !!

but still...ya ain't gunna beat me on no stinking duke!! :rockon:

[Drew]

Ya know the funny thing bro...I couldn't give two shits if ya beat me...but I pretend to...coz ya bite...and if you beat me...I would still smack talk ya... because bud...thats what you and I do!!! almost from the instant we meet...we smack talked and debated...about anything! and you love it! and you know I do aswell !!

but still...ya ain't gunna beat me on no stinking duke!! :rockon:

Bite....bitebitebite

[Robert Taylor]

You said a mouthful there Robert.

I am astounded sometimes by the amount of smack talk that goes on in the motorcycling world, and in particular the sports bikes (not just racing). All good in jest, but some of these fools actually believe their own press.

There is much more BS than I found in the kickboxing scene, then again, if you went up to a fighter and smack talked to them, you just might get smacked yourself. :laugh:

You are not wrong, and we have a few characters that play mind games and are ( behind the facade ) in fact very deviousand downright unethical. Sadly, that same mentality often gets applied in business, a leopard doesnt change its spots.

Sam Smith and Terry Fitzgerald ( for example ) are two of the most genuine characters on the scene. Quiet, reserved, no bu.....t and just get on with the job.

[moT]

So the 650s are still allowed in F3?

[skelstar]

So much hot air in here...soon someone is going to come along and say that they got 2nd and 3rd in F3 on an SV650 with missing suspension parts!

*rolls eyes*

[Keystone19]

So the 650s are still allowed in F3?

Yes Tom. The F3 class is still the same class it was last year - grab a copy of the MNZ rules off their website (www.mnz.co.nz) and you will see that SV650s are still eligible for F3 as are any of the other VTwin 650s.

The new Protwin class will run concurrently with F3 (i.e. both classes on the track at the same time) so you will have ProTwin SV650s and F3 SV650s running on the track together but you will be able to tell the difference by the colour of their number boards (among other things).

[flame]

Bollocks. A nicely worked SV will be on an even par with a 450 and the Nationals demonstrated that well.

Seconded! :)

and a well ridden protwin SV could kick a 450's ass with the right jockey on board. Especially in stringy strangley tricolour leathers LOL.

and I make shite coffee!

[slowpoke]

You are not wrong, and we have a few characters that play mind games and are ( behind the facade ) in fact very deviousand downright unethical. Sadly, that same mentality often gets applied in business, a leopard doesnt change its spots.

Sam Smith and Terry Fitzgerald ( for example ) are two of the most genuine characters on the scene. Quiet, reserved, no bu.....t and just get on with the job.

Yep, the quiet achiever's get more respect every time I reckon. There's justs something not quite kosher when someone sings their own praises. It makes it very easy to decide who you are going to cheer for.

Maybe I'm just old school but I still believe it's not just about what you achieve but how you go about achieving it. The ends do not justify the means, especially in something as unimportant as a scooter race.

[GSVR]

So much hot air in here...soon someone is going to come along and say that they got 2nd and 3rd in F3 on an SV650 with missing suspension parts!

*rolls eyes*

Rumour is he was using mind control ....

[Drew]

Rumour is he was using mind control ....

Fuckin worked didn't it!

[moT]

sweet no more track days just hypnotism classes :)

[GSVR]

sweet no more track days just hypnotism classes :)

Trackdays are useful for teaching the mind what it has to do to ride quickly and to feel comfortable and in control doing it.

Bike vs Riding talent. Everything can be broken down into what importance it has on the overall performance.

Tyres
Power
Handling
Brakes
Rider
Aerodynamics
Weight
Luck

Now have I got these in the right order of importance? Of course not.

[Possum41]

Trackdays are useful for teaching the mind what it has to do to ride quickly and to feel comfortable and in control doing it.

Bike vs Riding talent. Everything can be broken down into what importance it has on the overall performance.

Tyres
Power
Handling
Brakes
Rider
Aerodynamics
Weight
Luck

Now have I got these in the right order of importance? Of course not.


Gee garry you should be a rider coach;)

[scracha]

Gee garry you should be a rider coach;)

He missed out "baws"

[moT]

He missed out "baws"

im gonna hypnotise you next round muhahaha

[Drew]

im gonna hypnotise you next round muhahaha

Carefull, he'll have tyre warmers this round, so he'll be demon on the first lap.

[moT]

Carefull, he'll have tyre warmers this round, so he'll be demon on the first lap.

i havemy own way of heating my tyres!! my rear one anyway

[cowpoos]

i havemy own way of heating my tyres!! my rear one anyway
I'll pee on the front one if you buy me lunch?

[moT]

I'll pee on the front one if you buy me lunch?

hmm tempting offer but i think i will cuddle my tyre until its nice and warm:hug:

[skelstar]

hmm tempting offer but i think i will cuddle my tyre until its nice and warm:hug:

Huggers go on the back tyre bud :mellow:

[feral1]

Yep, and something that seems to be conveneiently ignored is that while Andy Bolwell's luvverly lil' ZXR is obviously a weapon, it didn't get that way by accident or just by throwing bucketloads of cash at it. Just 'cos you spend a lot of money on something doesn't mean it's not a lemon. As Dr Taylor will have seen first hand a badly setup Ohlins "whatever" is gonna be far worse than a well setup OEM equivalent.
It takes a lot of effort and experience to develop a successful bike in this kind of formula and it's no coincidence that the main protagonists in the class, Andy and Terry Fitzgerald, have been around longer than most.

Slowpoke, you got it in one. Great post, your right on. They are both very talented people, having spend hours, years and seasons getting to know there particular engine designs and improving absoloutly everything. Good on them when it all performs sweetly on race day. They worked hard to get it that way..

[feral1]

this thread raises some valid points and has been a great help to me. I decided to seriously look into the idea of racing a ProTwin in the hope of bringing back the thrills i experienced in the 250 proddie days. I ran a club level RGV in the early/mid 90s on a bike/tire budget of under $6000. Although i was never going to keep up with those guys with the big cheque books or the guys with armpits full of real tallent, i run happily within a group of half a dozen riders all about the same speed and ability. it was a cheap way of giving it your all on a budget machine. I was hoping that i could pick up a SV for around $6 -8 grand, fit some sticky tires, adjust the suspension and go. I now Know this is not going to be the case, and can see why fitting better suspension and a power commander is nessasary. I do not have great wads of cash lying around and see food on the table as a higher priority than racing. I do love my racing and have to make sacrifices. A less powerfull bike will be my sacrifice. Still im sure that on a budget of under $8000 i could still have fun on a slightly modified yet slower bike. if the class is going to be flooded with riders then i will have fun dicing for a top 10 finish while the cheque book racers, trophy snatchers and real talented guys provide the specticle up front. besides it will get me off my 15yr old RGV and may encourage me to spend some more $$$ as time go's on.

my 10 cents worth, thanks for the info. im gonna give it a go!!

steve
Good work bro. Be great to do some racing together. go for it
Eric

[nodrog]

is an Aprilia SXV 550 eligible to enter this class?

[Drew]

is an Aprilia SXV 550 eligible to enter this class?Cant see why not, but they're fuckin guttless compared to an SV.

[Toast]

Cant see why not, but they're fuckin guttless compared to an SV.

Just how did Aprillia manage to make a V-Twin that puts out average power for its size and still needs to be rebuilt every 50 hrs?

I'm sure there's a reason?

[k14]

is an Aprilia SXV 550 eligible to enter this class?
No it is not. The new rules this year by mnz bans motards racing with normal road racing bikes. You can put an SXV550 engine in an RS250 frame and race it in F3 but not allowed in pro twins due to it being modified.

[johnsv650]

f3 rules,
bike must have orginal road going frame, swing arm and vin......

[Cleve]

f3 rules,
bike must have orginal road going frame, swing arm and vin......

???!! really?? Do the guys who race Tigcrafts know that...? or is this a new rule for 08?

[GSVR]

???!! really?? Do the guys who race Tigcrafts know that...? or is this a new rule for 08?

Cleve your thinking of the F3 rules not ProTwin.

To race in protwin 10 units need to be sold in NZ but I'm sure MNZ would have the final say on the legality of racing a racebike in an essentially production based class. Also the Handlebars would be to high so would have to be dropped.

The current machines at the pointy end of F3 are the most advanced racebikes in NZ as SS and SB are just production bikes with a few bits added.
A top F3 bike has extensive modifications and race components fitted.

[Cleve]

Cleve your thinking of the F3 rules not ProTwin.

To race in protwin 10 units need to be sold in NZ but I'm sure MNZ would have the final say on the legality of racing a racebike in an essentially production based class. Also the Handlebars would be to high so would have to be dropped.

The current machines at the pointy end of F3 are the most advanced racebikes in NZ as SS and SB are just production bikes with a few bits added.
A top F3 bike has extensive modifications and race components fitted.

No, the guy John SV650 said "f3 ..."

[Cleve]

Cleve your thinking of the F3 rules not ProTwin.

To race in protwin 10 units need to be sold in NZ but I'm sure MNZ would have the final say on the legality of racing a racebike in an essentially production based class. Also the Handlebars would be to high so would have to be dropped.

The current machines at the pointy end of F3 are the most advanced racebikes in NZ as SS and SB are just production bikes with a few bits added.
A top F3 bike has extensive modifications and race components fitted.

Johnsv650 SAID "f3" ... hence my comment

[GSVR]

f3 rules,
bike must have orginal road going frame, swing arm and vin......

This thread is about ProTwins isn't it?

But read and understand the F3 rules before you start misquoteing them.
All of section 5 (that is 5 5-1 5-2 etc) only concerns 250cc two strokes. Yes thats half the rules apply to bikes that no body seems to run these days !

[GSVR]

Johnsv650 SAID "f3" ... hence my comment

Thanks Cleve.

[diesel pig]

.................