Cornering

[erik]

My bin a few weeks back, and then Vagabond's bin on sunday made me think a bit about cornering technique.
It seems to me in both cases a contributing factor in the crash was apexing too early.
Later on sunday when we were continuing on our ride, the slow riders (including me) had gone on ahead of the faster riders, who caught up a bit later. As they were passing, I attempted to give them room by keeping to the left of my lane and slowing down a bit. On one left hand corner this resulted in me going a little wide exiting the corner, essentially because I had apexed it right at the beginning since I was already in the left of the lane.
All of this has made me wonder a bit about cornering technique.
At the BRONZ ride right course, they spoke of late apexing and essentially sticking to the outside of the corner (eg. the left of the lane on a right-hand bend or the right of the lane on a left-hand bend) until the end of the corner was in sight, when you could tighten your turn and apex towards the end of the corner.
I also read similar stuff in the book "Proficient Motorcycling" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1889540536/102-8332255-9513742?v=glance) and have scanned a few pages so you can see what I mean (I'm currently borrowing it from the Waitakere city Libraries).

I've tried practising late apexing when I ride, it seems to be good when there is a series of left and right hand bends as it positions you well for the next curve. But it's not useful in all situations like for shallow bends or corners that you can see straight through.

Do you consciously think about this stuff when you ride?
Do you use late apexing or some other technique or ride by instinct?
I'm guessing the faster riders amoung us don't use late apexing, as it is not the fastest line. Or perhaps you do but only on unfamiliar corners?

[Blakamin]

I've tried practising late apexing when I ride, it seems to be good when there is a series of left and right hand bends as it positions you well for the next curve. But it's not useful in all situations like for shallow bends or corners that you can see straight through.

Do you consciously think about this stuff when you ride?
Do you use late apexing or some other technique or ride by instinct?
I'm guessing the faster riders amoung us don't use late apexing, as it is not the fastest line. Or perhaps you do but only on unfamiliar corners?
I use late apexing unless i can see straight through. even on roads I know (in case some B-R-A is sliding the other way)... then its balls-out fast as possible until I cant see again..... probably not the best habit to be in after reading those scanned pages


B-R-A = Boy Racing Arsehole

[scroter]

erik, your on the money apex early is an easy way to crash. The reason for this is you run out of road faster, this then leads to panic which cause your arms to go stiff and you cant steer.
i try and late apex on every corner but especially the ones you cant see all the way round them.
the reason you do this is it gives you more room for error on your part or someone elses.
late apexing is also sometimes called late turn in.
example left hand corner approach from the right hand side of the lane and turn in towards the apex when you can see where the road goes. it aint easy to get use to but it works and once you got it sussed you dont even think about it. you can also practise it in a car if you like.
also the later you turn in gives you more room for braking in case you need it.

just dont confuse late apexing with going faster its about not gettin into trouble. my number one rule when riding is relax, if you cant relax slow down till you can.

safe ridin

[StoneChucker]

:wacko: This is all very technical like, and I should be making myself very familiar with it (I have a great book about it, which I recently lent to a certain KB'er), but I find that I don't really think about it much when I'm out riding. I guess that I try to apex at the tightest part of the corner so I can accelerate out of it when I have a clear view.

Eg: on a right hand corner/bend, I'll stay left until I find "my" apex, where I move all the way right, then as I accelerate out I move to the left again? Hell I'm not sure, and I know that isn't the safest street line, since you're right on the centre line at the apex...

Who knows.

[scroter]

:wacko: This is all very technical like, and I should be making myself very familiar with it (I have a great book about it, which I recently lent to a certain KB'er), but I find that I don't really think about it much when I'm out riding. I guess that I try to apex at the tightest part of the corner so I can accelerate out of it when I have a clear view.

Eg: on a right hand corner/bend, I'll stay left until I find "my" apex, where I move all the way right, then as I accelerate out I move to the left again? Hell I'm not sure, and I know that isn't the safest street line, since you're right on the centre line at the apex...

Who knows.
the idea of late apexing on the road is so that when you exit the corner you dont have to run wide, you can keep it tight on the exit. its fine to exit wide but by giving yourself the option of staying tight on the exit it gives you more room for error. for instance if theres a dead possum lying right were you want to go then you can modify your line so that you dont go off the road or in the wrong lane. what your doin stonechucker sounds right but yes in a right hand turn if your tyres are by the centreline then chances are your over it and in the oncoming lane.

[aff-man]

it also depends on speed. I have a certain corner i like to practice apexing etc etc etc. And the faster i go the more the bike pushes wide. Now when doing this i usually have a little lean left (with the tyres i am running more if i had better ones)as well as not accelerating as fast out of a corner gives me a bit of leeway. Once i tried it a bit quick and the bike pushed out a lot further than i thought.

So here is a question for those who have also tried experimenting. Is the speed to bike pushing out linear or exponential. I have reason to beieve exponential due to tyre etc etc etc but it may have been a fluke occurance??

[Pwalo]

Good comments guys. I think that you need to remember that you can't ride on the road the same as you would on a track, just too may variables.

In my case I always err on the side of caution, especially if I'm on roads I haven't ridden for a while. There's always the chance of debris on the inside of corners, uneven surface repair, and some one else coming the other way on your side of the road.

A long time ago when I first learnt to ride I was taught to watch the vanishing point of the corner (if that makes sense) to see if it's tightening or easing. And always go in slow, and get on the gas after you have got the exit point sorted.

Various bike magazine have articles on bike handling, and these are always interesting reading. Always something to learn and practice. And practice, and practice, and practice. :sleep:

[StoneChucker]

The "Vanashing Point" is very useful, I find myself looking at/for that now and then. As I understand it, there is a street line (safest) and a racing line (fastest). Obvious which one should be used where.

[Ms Piggy]

Bing a newbie rider I get really nervous about cornering. I'm not even up to understanding all that "apex" stuff. I just get nervous about binning off and tend to slooooow down and squeeze on the front brake. I know the whole priciple of counter steering but I guess it's just the leaning over thing that really gets me nervy.

How do I get over that?? :confused:

[vifferman]

Bing a newbie rider I get really nervous about cornering. I'm not even up to understanding all that "apex" stuff. I just get nervous about binning off and tend to slooooow down and squeeze on the front brake. I know the whole priciple of counter steering but I guess it's just the leaning over thing that really gets me nervy.

How do I get over that?? :confused:Instead of looking at the corner, look through the corner. Pick yourself a favourite set of curves, and go through them a few times until you're comfy.
Lead with your chin.
Relax.

[Ms Piggy]

Instead of looking at the corner, look through the corner. Pick yourself a favourite set of curves, and go through them a few times until you're comfy.
Lead with your chin.
Relax.
I do actually have a fav route but it's a 50km/hr route. I'm kinda more nervous on cornering on the open road and approaching corners I've never been round before. Some riders just seem to have no fear and just plow on in :( Am I just being too impatient?

[Hoon]

Apexing early is a common fault that even the best riders fall into. Keith Code explains it well in ToTW II I think, when a rider is going too fast for their comfort zone they will start drifting (turning) in earlier as it offers a false sense of security but actually makes things worse.

On the road I often find myself being suckered into turning early, usually when I get lazy. You also need to identify if the upcoming turn is actually a REAL turn or just a kink in the road. For kinks you can just apex normally without braking/rolling off the gas but a REAL turn you need to approach it wide and sight the exit before you apex.

If I'm unsure whether an approaching turn is a kink or corner I'll take it wide to be safe but also look at stuff in the distance like the road, power poles and tree/fence lines to try and guess which direction the road heads off in.

[TonyB]

I always try to apex late- stops you for running out of road and allows you to see ant potential problems ahead. I get into a faster rythym riding this way. It might technically be slower than the classic racing line, but it's safer. Think of it this way- two racers are in a braking duel going into a corner, the one coming from behind usually ducks up the inside and apexes early. How many times have you seen the guy that was passed apex late and retake the lead while the guy that went in tight runs out of road and has to slow down? Even Rossi does that. The only way the passer can stay in front is to block the late apexers line and stuff him up. Apexing late also give you more time to brake.
I also use the vanishing point technique when I remember.

[Sensei]

Yea Vanishing Point is a good way to go .
Take's some practice but a Quick example is : When you are exiting a corner you look to where the corner & the road meet at apoint then you chase the vanishing point till the road open's up to been straight again .You can do this with a corner that tighten up to if you approach the corner & the vanishing point is closing back toward's you & not away then you know that the corner is tighting up & you should slow down ,then when you get to the point that it start's moving away from you then you start to chase it again . At the end of the day you should ride at a speed that you feel safe with as alot of the time people will get draged along at the pace of the faster rider's which can end up with them riding above there skill level . Find a road you know well & try out different techniqe's till you find one that work's for you
SENSEI :niceone:

[Yokai]

Apexing late is a standard technique for caged rally drivers. It allows much more visibility of the road, and faster exit speeds, less runoutofroad factor, and more fun as you can put the cage sideways. You'll notice that even F1 drivers late apex for hairpins. I've not got to the stage where I am "apexing" properly on a bike, but hey - it's REALLY useful to know how to do it in a cage, and from what I've been reading here, it transfers as a skill quite easily...

Yo

[pipeman]

Instead of looking at the corner, look through the corner. Pick yourself a favourite set of curves, and go through them a few times until you're comfy.
Lead with your chin.
Relax.

" Yes I agree with you firestormer "

do this and the force will become strong in you Erik :scooter:

[aff-man]

yeh don't look at the corner or thats where you gonna end up aye :crybaby: :gob:

[slob]

Late apexing definitely improved my cornering on the road. In addition to that I found that getting most of my braking done before leaning, and then accelerating a little bit before maintaining a constant or slightly accelerating throttle while mentally willing my body to become jelly-like and breathing deeply also helped quite a bit. It's very important not to shut the throttle while going through the corner as it can result in understeer. Of course after apexing you'd progressively ease the throttle open wider.

Last but not least: have a good read of Twist of the Wrist 1 and/or 2. I've only read 2 myself, but it has improved my cornering noticeably!

[slob]

.. oh yeah and keeping my eyes pointed towards the direction where I want to go and keeping my head level with the ground also works for me!

[DEATH_INC.]

This is a tricky one....I use different techniques depending on the situation.
I usually apex lateish,slow mid-corner speed and hard acceleration as soon as I can see where I'm going.Leftovers from my mx days....
The best bit of advice has already been given,look well ahead and use the vanishing point if you can,and try not to focus on anything,you'll find your eyes getting captured by something all the time,try to notice this and force yourself not to look at whatever it is,even look at lots of stuff,as long as you don't fixate on anything.
Celtic,when you master looking ahead and not focusing,you'll find you don't notice how fast you're going,and it'll be easier.

[erik]

Bing a newbie rider I get really nervous about cornering. I'm not even up to understanding all that "apex" stuff. I just get nervous about binning off and tend to slooooow down and squeeze on the front brake. I know the whole priciple of counter steering but I guess it's just the leaning over thing that really gets me nervy.

How do I get over that?? :confused:


Maybe doing some figure 8's in a big carpark would help you get used to leaning the bike over. For low speed stuff, you could try doing what it says in the attached pages. For slightly higher speed stuff, maybe just do slightly bigger figure 8's and lean with the bike.
I've found doing slow speed figure 8's like this quite fun, but it gets tiring on your legs balancing on the pegs like that.

[Motu]

I don't really know what I do,my riding is varied and I would see more hazzards in a day's ride than most see in a month - as Death says,different techniques for different situations.I don't know about this apex stuff - but from off road and dirt track riding I'd say I have a late turn in,from the outside of the turn,drop in quick,look as far into the turn as I can....and go there.I set up my turns well before I get to them,and if I see several corners - I look to the last one and go there.Pushing wide on corner exits? - look deep into the corner and get on the throttle....you push wide because you think you are going too fast for the turn and throttle off to slow down,this loads the front tyre and makes it worse.Get on the gas,not much,but just enough to unload the front and settle the rear - shit,if you got big balls and nothing to lose,just snap the throttle open and square it off.

[Mr Skid]

I do actually have a fav route but it's a 50km/hr route. I'm kinda more nervous on cornering on the open road and approaching corners I've never been round before. Some riders just seem to have no fear and just plow on in :( Am I just being too impatient?

I'm in no position to offer sage advice after my last cornering effort, but fear is not a bad thing, it will keep you in one piece.

If you don't know a road then it's a good idea to take it easy, rather than being caught out by a corner that exceeds your or your bikes abilities.

What do you find difficult about cornering on the open road? I find that the higher speeds gives me less time to react to a corner, but I've been improving my (still slow) response times, which allows me to approach an unknown corner faster, and make a decision later.

I agree that leaning the bike over is a bit scary at times, as you don't know how far you can actually lean it before it low sides, but I've been slowly leaning it more and more in a corner, and can scrape the pegs now.

Do you need to go faster though? I'm keen to become a fast rider, but if your happy with cruizing and enjoy it, then stick with that.

[Two Smoker]

Hey Eric, dont move over for us in or before a corner. it is upto us to pass you safely, not you.... Ive got no worries about sitting behind you for a few Kms ok? And if you want ill take you through some corners....

BUT THEN..... what do i know.... im a nana and wouldnt know my arse from my elbow when it comes to cornering.....

[Skyryder]

All this techno stuff on cornering................If you have to think, that is going to slow down your reaction, inaction or whatever else you want to call it. I do not consider myself a fast rider, but in my younger days, I could keep up with the best. Ride so that it feels right. Use your senses not your brain; it's too slow. Someone got's a signature that says taking a corner just right is spiritual, that's not far off the mark but when you get it right alow you body to memerise what you did, then in time you will do this instinctively. Then and only then can you ride on the edge, knowing that you have control and will not cross it. Hope all this makes sense but in short if you have to think what you are doing slow down to a speed that you do not, and work up from there.

Skyryder

[jazbug5]

:wacko: This is all very technical like, and I should be making myself very familiar with it (I have a great book about it, which I recently lent to a certain KB'er),

Thanks, Stoney; am reading it religiously, along with this thread. Definately recommended for newbies like myself. Thanks also for my 'special insert' :sly: .
The dressings have come in handy too...
back on the bike, tomorrow, I reckon. :2thumbsup
I have nothing to add here as of yet, except for the sage advice: "Avoid the sodding %£@* gravel, young 'un.."

[erik]

Hey Eric, dont move over for us in or before a corner. it is upto us to pass you safely, not you.... Ive got no worries about sitting behind you for a few Kms ok? And if you want ill take you through some corners....

Gotcha, I'll keep that in mind in the future.


BUT THEN..... what do i know.... im a nana and wouldnt know my arse from my elbow when it comes to cornering.....

:killingme You're a comedian...

[Posh Tourer :P]

Cathy,
When you go through those corners, try a few things. First, try and stay to the inside and go around the corner. That is early apexing - ie hitting the tightest part of the turn early. Then the next corner, try hanging out on the outside of the corner for a long time, and move across the lane later than you usually do. Late apexing. See which one feels better.
Also, try going through with a feather on the front brake, a feather on the rear, or a feather on the gas. See which one feels better. (Im assuming these are fairly easy corners, and you wont be going as fast as you could through them, so you will have lots of "room" to play). You will (hopefully) experience first had what everyone is saying on here, and then you can put that into practice on unknown corners. You don't have to do this fast at all, infact slower than you normally go might even be good.

Also, cornering is a matter of confidence. Firstly, lean angles are a confidence thing. Secondly, on unknown corners, most people apex late, and are confident that they can go through the corner, because they can see well through it. I could quite happily go a lot faster around corners than I do, and I know this because I have done it a few times before. I just lack the confidence to do it regularly - and perhaps thats a good thing - I have some reserve left for when it all turns to shit.

[bluninja]

All this talk of apexing on roads...phew! Was always told the rule of thumb for any corner....make sure you can stop in the distance you can see.

(Most 'advanced' riders exceed this and are therefore hoping there is nothing untoward out of sight....me included).

The main reason for holding a wide position at corner entry is to give a better view of the road ahead....the earlier you can see stuff the more time you have to decide what to do.

The biggest 2 things, after position in the corner are:
1) RELAX....if your arms are stiff you can't steer too well...and if your body's stiff any bumps get stransmitted to the steering.
2) Keep the throttle cracked on. (You should have done all your slowing down BEFORE the corner) This reduces the load on the front tyre so it's less likely to slide and stops you getting a jerk through the transmission when you wind it on after the apex which could make the back end slide in slippery conditions. It also helps ground clearnace and balances the suspension.

I'd also recommend that you keep your fingers well away from the front brake...it's too easy to tighten up and squeeze the lever...even when you know it will probably put you on the tarmac.

[Milky]

BUT THEN..... what do i know.... im a nana and wouldnt know my arse from my elbow when it comes to cornering.....

Yeah, I'd agree with that... When you go around corners both scrape the seal aye ;)

[Hoon]

Another interesting point from Twist II is "how quickly you turn the bike" i.e the transition from upright to leant over.

This is one area I've been working on with my racing when I noticed I had to slow down on some knee-to-knee corners, not because of my speed or traction but simply because I couldn't flick the bike over quick enough to make the turn (Pukekohe turns 1-2 and 8-9 before the hill). Keith Code says that the quicker you turn the bike, the less lean angle you need to go thru the turn so I put some effort into this and it really works!!!

However I also noticed it improved my street riding too especially with late apexing where you have to be more aggressive when turning in as the window is smaller. Early apexing is a result of a slow, lazy turn in where the rider likes to let the bike fall into the turn with minimum effort.

But with late apexing you need to learn quick turning skills otherwise you might run out of road!!

[Angry Puppy]

Bing a newbie rider I get really nervous about cornering. I'm not even up to understanding all that "apex" stuff. I just get nervous about binning off and tend to slooooow down and squeeze on the front brake. I know the whole priciple of counter steering but I guess it's just the leaning over thing that really gets me nervy.

How do I get over that?? :confused:

Celtic, We've all been there (well, I have at any rate). It's what Keith Code in Twist of the wrist II calls survival reactions (a must read if you haven't already). The trouble is, when you break, you throw more weight over the front which throws your cornering off. When going in to a corner, do all your breaking before hand. You want to be excelerating slightly in a bend. This will transfer more weight to the rear (Keith talks about a 60:40 split if I remember rightly) which will make you more stable.

One more note on late apexing - keep an eye on your mirrors. Sooner or later some toss-pot is bound to think your moving over in a lane is an invitation to over take you.

Andy

[Ms Piggy]

I'm in no position to offer sage advice after my last cornering effort, but fear is not a bad thing, it will keep you in one piece.

If you don't know a road then it's a good idea to take it easy, rather than being caught out by a corner that exceeds your or your bikes abilities.

What do you find difficult about cornering on the open road? I find that the higher speeds gives me less time to react to a corner, but I've been improving my (still slow) response times, which allows me to approach an unknown corner faster, and make a decision later.

I agree that leaning the bike over is a bit scary at times, as you don't know how far you can actually lean it before it low sides, but I've been slowly leaning it more and more in a corner, and can scrape the pegs now.

Do you need to go faster though? I'm keen to become a fast rider, but if your happy with cruizing and enjoy it, then stick with that.

Ahhhh yes, all good advice - thanks paparazzi :niceone:

Fazer - I had a quick look at Keith Codes book and I printed off those pages from Erik. Something else to study.

[vtec]

Apexing late means you can get on the throttle earlier as the second part of the turn is a lot less sharp.

Also I tend not to take very tight apexes on the road cause the road edge is usually very uneven, and the are things like powerpoles and traffic lights waiting to take your head off.

And I never corner hard on unfamiliar roads, because they often might have dips and things that you don't expect, and can badly unsettle the bike.

[riffer]

I had a quick look at Keith Codes book and I printed off those pages from Erik. Something else to study.
I also have Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist on Video if any KB'ers in Welly want to borrow it.

[Blakamin]

I also have Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist on Video if any KB'ers in Welly want to borrow it.
I can AVI celticno6's copy if anyone wants

[riffer]

I can AVI celticno6's copy if anyone wants
Actually Blakamin, I'd like a copy on AVI

[Blakamin]

Actually Blakamin, I'd like a copy on AVI
No probs! will organise a pick-up on the weekend at some stage??

[dhunt]

I also have Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist on Video if any KB'ers in Welly want to borrow it.
What's like compared to the book? I've got the book and really enjoyed it, is the movie basically the same?

[vifferman]

BUT THEN..... what do i know.... im a nana and wouldnt know my arse from my elbow when it comes to cornering.....:Oi:
Phark, TS - I thought you'd got past this "I'm a nana" stage.
Sounds like you need a beating or summat.:ar15:

I have nothing to add here as of yet, except for the sage advice: "Avoid the sodding %£@* gravel, young 'un.."You sure it wasn't, "When you see some gravel, keep the front end light, stick you inside leg out, and gas it!" ?
How's your eye, by the way, Young Missy Jazbug?

And CSL: Cathy, make sure you don't overthink it. The advice given here has all been good, but if you are too worried about doing it right, instead of just relaxing and enjoying it, you'll tense up and may blow it. Go out on a nice day, on an easy road, and ride at your own pace and let the bike ride the road. It doesn't actually take a lot of input from you for it to corner seemingly by itself, if you're looking where you want to go and not trying to countersteer, late apex, get everything right, etc. Plenty of time for the fine points and technical stuff, but if you're nervous and unsure at the moment, the critical thing for you is being relaxed and having confidence in you abilities and the ability of the bike to get you there. If you're uptight, thinking too much, you may well tense up, grip the bars too tight, worry that you're cocking things up, and the ride will suffer as a result.
Go out, have fun, enjoy the ride, and ride at your own pace. Ride your own ride; you're not Rossi, Motoracer or whoever.

[erik]

I can AVI celticno6's copy if anyone wants

I'd like one. I'll pm you.

[StoneChucker]

Could I borrow that video sometime too? The avi will be too big for me to d/l, unless you can put it on cd or something?

Dave.

[Ms Piggy]

And CSL: Cathy, make sure you don't overthink it. The advice given here has all been good, but if you are too worried about doing it right, instead of just relaxing and enjoying it, you'll tense up and may blow it. Go out on a nice day, on an easy road, and ride at your own pace and let the bike ride the road. It doesn't actually take a lot of input from you for it to corner seemingly by itself, if you're looking where you want to go and not trying to countersteer, late apex, get everything right, etc. Plenty of time for the fine points and technical stuff, but if you're nervous and unsure at the moment, the critical thing for you is being relaxed and having confidence in you abilities and the ability of the bike to get you there. If you're uptight, thinking too much, you may well tense up, grip the bars too tight, worry that you're cocking things up, and the ride will suffer as a result.
Go out, have fun, enjoy the ride, and ride at your own pace. Ride your own ride; you're not Rossi, Motoracer or whoever.
Ok thanks FS :niceone: That's true. Those who know me well, know I tend to overthink lotsa stuff, so riding is no different. I'll just think about realxing :)

[DEATH_INC.]

That's good advice,relax and ride your own pace.
Smoothness is the key,speed will come on it's own......

[Blakamin]

Could I borrow that video sometime too? The avi will be too big for me to d/l, unless you can put it on cd or something?

Dave.
I'll prolly do a few CD's, Dave. when i get myself organized! :niceone:

[2_SL0]

I have a query regarding the late apexing. I understand the principle, I try to put it to practise. But I have a couple of fears. First off, when cornering left I find I tend to be sitting out on the right hand side of the lane, and then dropping into the late apex. But Im worried about the cars comin the other way. Is this the standard practise or am I missing something. I am looking through the corner so I can generally see whats coming and adjust for that. But what do you do if its really sharp and you cant see. Im scard a big bad truck is going to come round the corner a little to fast be a little over the white line, and pick me up as a new hood ornament. Secondly Im always trying to stay roughly
on the piece of road where the car in front right hand tyre would sit. As you guys go through the corner (again were say left corner) do you cross from the outer right hand side to the inner left side of the lane. Im sorry If this is a dumb
question. I ask this because I was told to avoid the middl of the lane as its where all the oil and residue collect from cars, crossing over it when leaning in a corner worries me. Again does this just come down to paying attention to oil slicks etc on the road. Any answrs to these question would be great as this is really my one big concern when riding.

Skyrider would prob say Im over analysing. (He be right) :scooter:

[TwoSeven]

It seems to me in both cases a contributing factor in the crash was apexing too early.
?

If you didnt make a corner on the road, or were wide etc. Its not because of technique or skill or anything like that. It was just because you were going too fast for that corner.

With road riding the two key points are to be going the correct speed for the situation and also to be in the correct position on the road.

As an example - consider you were late apexing and doing all that 'correct theory' stuff and a truck came round the corner and pushed you to the left, you should be able to finish the corner as if nothing had happened.

Just my thoughts

[FROSTY]

This is summat I've been thinking about a lot lately. I seem to have lost a lot of my calm and reserve on the road when conering.
I'm finding myself on blind corners actually double or even triple apexing.
Its the whole "what if" syndrome.
What if theres a car on the wrong side of the road, What if theres gravel i cant see.
I was getting all cut up about it then I thought --hang on its just the survi :doh: val instinct cutting in.--or is it??

[Skyryder]

This is summat I've been thinking about a lot lately. I seem to have lost a lot of my calm and reserve on the road when conering.
I'm finding myself on blind corners actually double or even triple apexing.
Its the whole "what if" syndrome.
What if theres a car on the wrong side of the road, What if theres gravel i cant see.
I was getting all cut up about it then I thought --hang on its just the survi :doh: val instinct cutting in.--or is it??

"What if?" That's the safest way to ride. What you are doing is automaticaly preparaing for the unexpected. Another name is Defensive driving Way to go

Skyryder

[Jackrat]

I have a query regarding the late apexing. I understand the principle, I try to put it to practise. But I have a couple of fears. First off, when cornering left I find I tend to be sitting out on the right hand side of the lane, and then dropping into the late apex. But Im worried about the cars comin the other way. Is this the standard practise or am I missing something. I am looking through the corner so I can generally see whats coming and adjust for that. But what do you do if its really sharp and you cant see. Im scard a big bad truck is going to come round the corner a little to fast be a little over the white line, and pick me up as a new hood ornament. Secondly Im always trying to stay roughly
on the piece of road where the car in front right hand tyre would sit. As you guys go through the corner (again were say left corner) do you cross from the outer right hand side to the inner left side of the lane. Im sorry If this is a dumb
question. I ask this because I was told to avoid the middl of the lane as its where all the oil and residue collect from cars, crossing over it when leaning in a corner worries me. Again does this just come down to paying attention to oil slicks etc on the road. Any answrs to these question would be great as this is really my one big concern when riding.

Skyrider would prob say Im over analysing. (He be right) :scooter:

Your concern with cars coming the other way is very well founded.
I just love late apexing an then diving hard into an thus out of a corner.
I was in the process of doing just this on a blind left hand corner I know very
well a few years ago.I was just begining to swing wide when a Toyota land cruiser came around the corner well over the center line.I did the big jink and narrowly got by him.
My younger brother who was behind me,later told me he was sure I was history because the Fwit in the Toyota just sat there,as they do.I now tend to take a medim line on the road if I can't see right through the corner.
The wide in,narrow out Tech' is to me a track thing.On public roads it works well but also might get you killed if your not very carefull.
I always try to give myself room to change my line if I need to.
This just means not pushing to hard if I don't know the road or I can't see as far as I'd like.
Dead hero's are still dead huh!!

far as crossing the center or riding on the center line of your own lane is concerned,I do it a lot,I use the whole lane if an when I feel like it.
The only time I've ever had an issue with it is when the road was wet,and even then only if it's just got wet after a dry spell.
The exception is on motoways,then I stick to one side or the other of my lane,normaly the outside.The reasons I stick to the outside is that it keeps me off the crap on the center line plus it dominates the lane.It forces lazy car drivers to move out of the lane to pass me an gives me some where to go if/when they pass to close.

As far as riders that just charge into blind corners,well I've known a lot of them.Most of them pulled their heads in,don't ride anymore,or are dead.I knew three of them that died an a few others that stopped riding because they reckoned it was to dangerous,after THEY fucked up.
Was only a matter of time :spudwhat:

[2_SL0]

Thanks Jackrat, thats sort of info this newbie is very keen to read. :niceone:

Well Ill edit this and say.
I just went for a ride and it was the best ride so far. I am a hell of lot happier on the road and have gained alot more coinfidence. I owe you a beer Jackrat. Yes it is likey to be plainly obvious to all you senior riders here. But I needed to see it in words. I am still looking at the apex, and looking through the corner, but I am moving around the lane a hell of alot more and getting the bike well away from the center line earlier, rather than drpping into the apex as late as possible.
This places me out of the way of any oncoming traffic on a blind corner. It aint the fastest way BUT bygum it seems the safest. I can see if you push it hard u would swing wide. (Im guessing thats where the late apexing would come in handy) But I aint going to pushing hard for a very long time. I am actually starting to enjoy the corners as i feel alot happier on the road. I even have started leaning in, hehehehe. But I find another bad habit I may of dragged across from ym dirtbike. If I dont concentrate on leaning I tend to lean the other way, or at least it feels like it. Dont know if that makes sense. Maybe its that survival thingy. hehehe.
Soz to rave, but I had a blast. Oh its nice and quiet out here in Hunua bugger all cars on the road, just the way I like it. :ride:

[Posh Tourer :P]

I ask this because I was told to avoid the middl of the lane as its where all the oil and residue collect from cars, crossing over it when leaning in a corner worries me.

I look for slicks, but normally it doesnt worry me, and I cross the lane with impunity. However, you can easily tell on some roads if they are likely to have crap over the middle, and I always take it easier on those ones. Also helps not to worry about the crap. One corner on the way to work always has gravel etc, and it always feels heaps better to ignore it, and ride out the corner normally - obviously you acknowledge it's presence and adjust your speed, but going through the corner, ignoring is best - no target fixation, and you dont lighten up on the throttle or handlebars and cause any uncertainty and wobbles. If your speed is right, you'll have no worries, and you will be (hopefully) more confident by ignoring the detail of it, just know that it is there and that you should be going a bit slower.

[Motu]

Well,I went for a ride today - and bugger me,I was almost into suburbia before I remembered...I gotta analise my riding,think these corner things out.Looks like I haven't got a clue how to ride a motorcycle...I couldn't see any of these apex things,long or short...I wouldn't know one from an avocado,there were no vanishing points - they were just corners and I went through them like shit down a drain pipe...they were fun,and I didn't even know what I was doing,what a fluke eh?

[2_SL0]

lolol, Trust me I think your way is better. I aint reading anymore on tips how to ride as such. Im JUST going to ride.

[Two Smoker]

When im riding on the road, i dont think about cornering.... i just do it..... Dont think too hard about your lines on the road when riding....

Here's what you should do.... Take things slow, this is the time where you concentrate on the lines you take and looking for hazards, but learn to rear the road, look for powerlines (they generally follow the line of the road, road markers, signs and the way the road dissappears.... Speed (im not talking balls out speed) will come naturally as you get better at reading the road....

[Milky]

I had a close call when I very first started riding - the second time I was out on a bike in fact... Ran a little wide through the apex of a corner, and almost got clobbered by an Isuzu Trooper with damaged metal on the front right wheel. Being younger and more inexperienced I was looking at the front right wheel as I went past, and can still picture the shapshot my brain took before I closed my eyes and waited for the bang... He was half into my lane on a left hander at the bottom of a dip, and ever since then I have been trying to break an instinctive "stick in the left hand wheel track" style. I can avoid doing it most of the time, but if a corner is a double apex or blind I revert to the same position again and again.
Unless anyone has a bright idea, only time will fix it I guess...

[Bonez]

If you didnt make a corner on the road, or were wide etc. Its not because of technique or skill or anything like that. It was just because you were going too fast for that corner.

With road riding the two key points are to be going the correct speed for the situation and also to be in the correct position on the road.

As an example - consider you were late apexing and doing all that 'correct theory' stuff and a truck came round the corner and pushed you to the left, you should be able to finish the corner as if nothing had happened.

Just my thoughts Well said. I try and stay in middle of the lane whenever possible for those reasons you mentioned plus the fact there seem to be a lot of other m/cs "practicing" their riding technique :angry2:
My analisis of a ride I did yesterday-
Ducati rider(a mate)-looks nice, beautifull racing line, consistant style:love2: .
BMW rider(my dad)- all over the road. Nearly falls asleep following the Ducati rider :no:.
Ol Honda rider(me)-stays in lane. Pissed off he has to follow behind the Ducati
and BMW rider. Knows he can go around those damn corners quicker :crybaby:

[Mr Skid]

I went for a ride up Old North Rd to Wellsford and back on Friday afternoon, and tried my usual technique (up to now) on the way there. This involves hanging off the bike and trying to steer the bike around the corner with my hands.

From analysing the reactions of the bike I identified that I was turning in too much, then having to straighten up, and tip in again.

I worked out while having a break in Wellsford that I'd started looking at the inside of the corner to stop myself looking at the outside of the corner and running wide, which I was doing when I first started riding. Also I was thinking about how to steer the bike with the bars and moving about.

On the way back I decided to stay on the bike and concentrate on lines, following the vanishing point in tight corners, and looking at points on the road where I wanted my bike to travel over on sweepers.

It was a completely different ride. I was using the 'long line' sort of thing through the corner that Skyryder was talking about.

There were no nasty suprises, as I wasn't thinking about leaning the bike. My muscles already know what to do to get the bike to go in a direction, all I needed to do was to start feeding them directions with my eyes rather than my thoughts.

Using this long line approach meant that I was looking at the corner before I got to it, rather than as I was entering it.

It gave me the chance to gather all the clues together, such as power lines and road markers

Up to now I've been concentrating on corners as a collection of elements, such as braking phases, turn in, lean angles etc,

Now I'm thinking about it more holistically with the aim being to get out the other side without scaring myself in the process. :eek:

[Vagabond]

When im riding on the road, i dont think about cornering.... i just do it..... Dont think too hard about your lines on the road when riding....

Here's what you should do.... Take things slow, this is the time where you concentrate on the lines you take and looking for hazards, but learn to rear the road, look for powerlines (they generally follow the line of the road, road markers, signs and the way the road dissappears.... Speed (im not talking balls out speed) will come naturally as you get better at reading the road....
Hey TS thats good advice, Iv'e only just seen this thread and seeing as my name was mentioned, I thought i'd let you guys know what I done when i binned it.
Well from my perspective anyways !

All was going well and i was really enjoying the ride, although at times in certain corners I felt like I was slightly out of my comfort zone :sick:

Well, what I do remember is that I looked in my rear view mirror and on looking forward again I just caught a glimpse of the information sign, you know the ones that give a recommended speed, but it didn't quite register as to what that speed was :confused2 anyways that pretty much sums it up :yeah:

Yip I lost concentration !!!!

When I did see how sharp the corner actually was I knew I had just gone in too hot :ar15: :ar15: :ar15:
On braking I lost the rear end to hard braking +_ three times, that was due to me seeing loose gravel at the start of the corner and was therefore reluctant to grab to much front brake; Have fallen hard that way too- broken ribs-
To continue I did not feel like going straight through the fence and made an effort to throw the bike into the corner, this was done very aggresively with me also opening the throttle aggresively, and that my friends caused the rear wheel to loose traction again but it also decided to grab again which resulted in me being HIGHSIDED.
:ride: was over, and I :hug: the fence pole.

Bottom line don't loose concentration especially when riding faster than your usual pace.
Hope this helps :wavey:

[FlyingDutchMan]

That late apexing made my life on the bike a shit load better, and more fun. By doing the late apex I found I got round the corners without any worries of going out of my lane or over the edge, got tons of room if I do mis-calculate a little, not to mention it was much faster than I had previusly been doing it, and I was actually looking through the corner even if I couldn't see where the road went. It was awesome until... the rear started sliding out a bit on the corners. It removed my new found confidence on the road. Then I realised it had been because of grit the council had put down over winter. Oh well nothing to do about it but take it easier util the grit run out.

BTW: Top post!

[TwoSeven]

A game that I play when I am out riding the hills around chch when there are no cars around is to stay dead center of my lane. Sounds pretty easy but its actually very hard to do.

I can almost do the whole 50km port hills circuit without using the brakes at all and am working on not having to change gear either - but there are a few corners that still need work.

[TonyB]

Waaaaay back near the start of this, someone said you shouldn't over think it when riding, just relax and let it flow- or something like that. T'would apear that there is scientific evidence to back this opinion up. I was watching BBC world while eating my brekky this morning, and I saw the tail end of a program that delved into the reasons for 'choking'- ie: Beckham missing a simple penalty kick, or the All Blacks never winning the game that counts.

According to the research they had done, when your learning to do any new activity (like kicking a ball, or riding your motorbisikle) you use a certain part of your brain. In order to become expert at the task you need to do the task so often that it becomes a subconcious process and you no longer need to think about it. When this happens, you use an entirely different part of your brain.

So what? When placed in a high stress situation, most people revert to using the part of the brain they were using when they were learning the task, and they suddenly find doing the task much more difficult, probably because they are over thinking.

I reckon there is definitely some truth in this- how many perfectly good road riders have gone to a track day and spent the first couple of sessions wobbling around like a learner until they relax and just ride? I know I have :o

[2_SL0]

Im living proof of that. I was cornering ok. (not great but ok) Then I hadnt been on the bike for a few days (the weather and work etc) I got itchy feet started reading and analysing my cornering etc. Hey presto I was able to complte fa$k it up from basically trying to hard to do it right. Since then I scraped it all went with the flow, looked through the corner as much as possible and drop into the apex as late I AM happy with. I gurantee you overanalyse this and you will bugger it up.

Please next time I start asking to many questions and start down this road again. Someone slap me round the head and tell me to go ride my bike. :kick:

I will thank you for it later.