Cornering

[erik]

My bin a few weeks back, and then Vagabond's bin on sunday made me think a bit about cornering technique.
It seems to me in both cases a contributing factor in the crash was apexing too early.
Later on sunday when we were continuing on our ride, the slow riders (including me) had gone on ahead of the faster riders, who caught up a bit later. As they were passing, I attempted to give them room by keeping to the left of my lane and slowing down a bit. On one left hand corner this resulted in me going a little wide exiting the corner, essentially because I had apexed it right at the beginning since I was already in the left of the lane.
All of this has made me wonder a bit about cornering technique.
At the BRONZ ride right course, they spoke of late apexing and essentially sticking to the outside of the corner (eg. the left of the lane on a right-hand bend or the right of the lane on a left-hand bend) until the end of the corner was in sight, when you could tighten your turn and apex towards the end of the corner.
I also read similar stuff in the book "Proficient Motorcycling" and have scanned a few pages so you can see what I mean (I'm currently borrowing it from the Waitakere city Libraries).

I've tried practising late apexing when I ride, it seems to be good when there is a series of left and right hand bends as it positions you well for the next curve. But it's not useful in all situations like for shallow bends or corners that you can see straight through.

Do you consciously think about this stuff when you ride?
Do you use late apexing or some other technique or ride by instinct?
I'm guessing the faster riders amoung us don't use late apexing, as it is not the fastest line. Or perhaps you do but only on unfamiliar corners?

[Blakamin]

I've tried practising late apexing when I ride, it seems to be good when there is a series of left and right hand bends as it positions you well for the next curve. But it's not useful in all situations like for shallow bends or corners that you can see straight through.

Do you consciously think about this stuff when you ride?
Do you use late apexing or some other technique or ride by instinct?
I'm guessing the faster riders amoung us don't use late apexing, as it is not the fastest line. Or perhaps you do but only on unfamiliar corners?

I use late apexing unless i can see straight through. even on roads I know (in case some B-R-A is sliding the other way)... then its balls-out fast as possible until I cant see again..... probably not the best habit to be in after reading those scanned pages


B-R-A = Boy Racing Arsehole

[scroter]

erik, your on the money apex early is an easy way to crash. The reason for this is you run out of road faster, this then leads to panic which cause your arms to go stiff and you cant steer.
i try and late apex on every corner but especially the ones you cant see all the way round them.
the reason you do this is it gives you more room for error on your part or someone elses.
late apexing is also sometimes called late turn in.
example left hand corner approach from the right hand side of the lane and turn in towards the apex when you can see where the road goes. it aint easy to get use to but it works and once you got it sussed you dont even think about it. you can also practise it in a car if you like.
also the later you turn in gives you more room for braking in case you need it.

just dont confuse late apexing with going faster its about not gettin into trouble. my number one rule when riding is relax, if you cant relax slow down till you can.

safe ridin

[StoneChucker]

This is all very technical like, and I should be making myself very familiar with it (I have a great book about it, which I recently lent to a certain KB'er), but I find that I don't really think about it much when I'm out riding. I guess that I try to apex at the tightest part of the corner so I can accelerate out of it when I have a clear view.

Eg: on a right hand corner/bend, I'll stay left until I find "my" apex, where I move all the way right, then as I accelerate out I move to the left again? Hell I'm not sure, and I know that isn't the safest street line, since you're right on the centre line at the apex...

Who knows.

[scroter]

This is all very technical like, and I should be making myself very familiar with it (I have a great book about it, which I recently lent to a certain KB'er), but I find that I don't really think about it much when I'm out riding. I guess that I try to apex at the tightest part of the corner so I can accelerate out of it when I have a clear view.

Eg: on a right hand corner/bend, I'll stay left until I find "my" apex, where I move all the way right, then as I accelerate out I move to the left again? Hell I'm not sure, and I know that isn't the safest street line, since you're right on the centre line at the apex...

Who knows.

the idea of late apexing on the road is so that when you exit the corner you dont have to run wide, you can keep it tight on the exit. its fine to exit wide but by giving yourself the option of staying tight on the exit it gives you more room for error. for instance if theres a dead possum lying right were you want to go then you can modify your line so that you dont go off the road or in the wrong lane. what your doin stonechucker sounds right but yes in a right hand turn if your tyres are by the centreline then chances are your over it and in the oncoming lane.

[aff-man]

it also depends on speed. I have a certain corner i like to practice apexing etc etc etc. And the faster i go the more the bike pushes wide. Now when doing this i usually have a little lean left (with the tyres i am running more if i had better ones)as well as not accelerating as fast out of a corner gives me a bit of leeway. Once i tried it a bit quick and the bike pushed out a lot further than i thought.

So here is a question for those who have also tried experimenting. Is the speed to bike pushing out linear or exponential. I have reason to beieve exponential due to tyre etc etc etc but it may have been a fluke occurance??

[Pwalo]

Good comments guys. I think that you need to remember that you can't ride on the road the same as you would on a track, just too may variables.

In my case I always err on the side of caution, especially if I'm on roads I haven't ridden for a while. There's always the chance of debris on the inside of corners, uneven surface repair, and some one else coming the other way on your side of the road.

A long time ago when I first learnt to ride I was taught to watch the vanishing point of the corner (if that makes sense) to see if it's tightening or easing. And always go in slow, and get on the gas after you have got the exit point sorted.

Various bike magazine have articles on bike handling, and these are always interesting reading. Always something to learn and practice. And practice, and practice, and practice.

[StoneChucker]

The "Vanashing Point" is very useful, I find myself looking at/for that now and then. As I understand it, there is a street line (safest) and a racing line (fastest). Obvious which one should be used where.

[Ms Piggy]

Bing a newbie rider I get really nervous about cornering. I'm not even up to understanding all that "apex" stuff. I just get nervous about binning off and tend to slooooow down and squeeze on the front brake. I know the whole priciple of counter steering but I guess it's just the leaning over thing that really gets me nervy.

How do I get over that??

[vifferman]

Bing a newbie rider I get really nervous about cornering. I'm not even up to understanding all that "apex" stuff. I just get nervous about binning off and tend to slooooow down and squeeze on the front brake. I know the whole priciple of counter steering but I guess it's just the leaning over thing that really gets me nervy.

How do I get over that??

Instead of looking at the corner, look through the corner. Pick yourself a favourite set of curves, and go through them a few times until you're comfy.
Lead with your chin.
Relax.

[Ms Piggy]

Instead of looking at the corner, look through the corner. Pick yourself a favourite set of curves, and go through them a few times until you're comfy.
Lead with your chin.
Relax.

I do actually have a fav route but it's a 50km/hr route. I'm kinda more nervous on cornering on the open road and approaching corners I've never been round before. Some riders just seem to have no fear and just plow on in Am I just being too impatient?

[Hoon]

Apexing early is a common fault that even the best riders fall into. Keith Code explains it well in ToTW II I think, when a rider is going too fast for their comfort zone they will start drifting (turning) in earlier as it offers a false sense of security but actually makes things worse.

On the road I often find myself being suckered into turning early, usually when I get lazy. You also need to identify if the upcoming turn is actually a REAL turn or just a kink in the road. For kinks you can just apex normally without braking/rolling off the gas but a REAL turn you need to approach it wide and sight the exit before you apex.

If I'm unsure whether an approaching turn is a kink or corner I'll take it wide to be safe but also look at stuff in the distance like the road, power poles and tree/fence lines to try and guess which direction the road heads off in.

[TonyB]

I always try to apex late- stops you for running out of road and allows you to see ant potential problems ahead. I get into a faster rythym riding this way. It might technically be slower than the classic racing line, but it's safer. Think of it this way- two racers are in a braking duel going into a corner, the one coming from behind usually ducks up the inside and apexes early. How many times have you seen the guy that was passed apex late and retake the lead while the guy that went in tight runs out of road and has to slow down? Even Rossi does that. The only way the passer can stay in front is to block the late apexers line and stuff him up. Apexing late also give you more time to brake.
I also use the vanishing point technique when I remember.

[Sensei]

Yea Vanishing Point is a good way to go .
Take's some practice but a Quick example is : When you are exiting a corner you look to where the corner & the road meet at apoint then you chase the vanishing point till the road open's up to been straight again .You can do this with a corner that tighten up to if you approach the corner & the vanishing point is closing back toward's you & not away then you know that the corner is tighting up & you should slow down ,then when you get to the point that it start's moving away from you then you start to chase it again . At the end of the day you should ride at a speed that you feel safe with as alot of the time people will get draged along at the pace of the faster rider's which can end up with them riding above there skill level . Find a road you know well & try out different techniqe's till you find one that work's for you
SENSEI

[Yokai]

Apexing late is a standard technique for caged rally drivers. It allows much more visibility of the road, and faster exit speeds, less runoutofroad factor, and more fun as you can put the cage sideways. You'll notice that even F1 drivers late apex for hairpins. I've not got to the stage where I am "apexing" properly on a bike, but hey - it's REALLY useful to know how to do it in a cage, and from what I've been reading here, it transfers as a skill quite easily...

Yo