Police shoot and kill another person

[peasea]

No, I think that Idle was trying to say his opinion is full of shit.

In your opinion, and perhaps one or two others.

[scumdog]

No, I think that Idle was trying to say his opinion is full of shit.

Scarey, once again I agree with you!!:2thumbsup

[doc]

Been on night shift. Have they shot another one ?

[Finn]

Been on night shift. Have they shot another one ?

Here's hoping. One a day keeps WINZ away.

[scumdog]

Here's hoping. One a day keeps WINZ away.

'Must Spread Rep':2thumbsup:lol:

[Swoop]

Here's hoping. One a day keeps WINZ away.
The drawback being, the rest of the family show up at winz wanting a handout since the "breadwinner" ain't there no more...

[peasea]

I find it interesting that when someone (anyone) takes a police officer to task (or takes the piss) on kb, be it personally or even hypothetically, all the police officers in creation get so defensive. Why is that? Are nerves being struck? Is there any chance, albeit the slimmest imaginable chance, that some (even one or two) things that III has posted have a gossamer-thin thread of truth to them?

Not jumping on the wagon here guys and gals, just tipping my head sideways and going...hmmmmm.

Whenever someone takes a shot (however cheap) at the police there are guns appearing from the woodwork and they're all blazing. Why so sensitive? There's heat in the kitchen and there always will be, it goes with the territory and while I'm sure police officers get tired of it (like HD owners get tired of sb riders mouthing off) it's just part of the deal isn't it? Police officers take on a job with their eyes wide open and then moan about the conditions.

Being a copper would be a tough job and I don't want it, I couldn't take the BS, the low-lifes and the violence but this is a forum and people get so wound up about what someone says in cyberspace. I'm a bit bamboozled, not winding anyone up, just observing the reactions.

Lighten TFU, kaaaarm orrrn.

[doc]

Here's hoping. One a day keeps WINZ away.You have no compassion then ?

[idleidolidyll]

well said that man :niceone:

[scumdog]

I find it interesting that when someone (anyone) takes a police officer to task (or takes the piss) on kb, be it personally or even hypothetically, all the police officers in creation get so defensive. Why is that? Are nerves being struck? Is there any chance, albeit the slimmest imaginable chance, that some (even one or two) things that III has posted have a gossamer-thin thread of truth to them?

Not jumping on the wagon here guys and gals, just tipping my head sideways and going...hmmmmm.

Whenever someone takes a shot (however cheap) at the police there are guns appearing from the woodwork and they're all blazing. Why so sensitive? There's heat in the kitchen and there always will be, it goes with the territory and while I'm sure police officers get tired of it (like HD owners get tired of sb riders mouthing off) it's just part of the deal isn't it? Police officers take on a job with their eyes wide open and then moan about the conditions.

Being a copper would be a tough job and I don't want it, I couldn't take the BS, the low-lifes and the violence but this is a forum and people get so wound up about what someone says in cyberspace. I'm a bit bamboozled, not winding anyone up, just observing the reactions.

Lighten TFU, kaaaarm orrrn.

Yup, we moan about the 'conditions' - on KB.

But we also get sick of self-opinionated trolling slack-jawed mouth-breathing watery-spunk lack-wits who spout off shit like it's fact.

And besides, ain't we allowed to troll or hold opinions too????

[idleidolidyll]

No, I think that Idle was trying to say his opinion is full of shit.

nah, i was saying yours is and laughing when it was reiterated

[idleidolidyll]

But we also get sick of self-opinionated trolling slack-jawed mouth-breathing watery-spunk lack-wits who spout off shit like it's fact.



yeah, i get fed up with red necks and cops too...............

[Finn]

You have no compassion then ?

Only between the sheets, then I get sleepy.

[idleidolidyll]

Only between the sheets, then I get sleepy.

you should whack off to beethoven or heavy metal instead of neil sadaka then..................

[Finn]

nah, i was saying yours is and laughing when it was reiterated

Laughing like I was when your buddy got wacked, or more like a snigger?

[98tls]

I find it interesting that when someone (anyone) takes a police officer to task (or takes the piss) on kb, be it personally or even hypothetically, all the police officers in creation get so defensive. Why is that? Are nerves being struck? Is there any chance, albeit the slimmest imaginable chance, that some (even one or two) things that III has posted have a gossamer-thin thread of truth to them?

Not jumping on the wagon here guys and gals, just tipping my head sideways and going...hmmmmm.

Whenever someone takes a shot (however cheap) at the police there are guns appearing from the woodwork and they're all blazing. Why so sensitive? There's heat in the kitchen and there always will be, it goes with the territory and while I'm sure police officers get tired of it (like HD owners get tired of sb riders mouthing off) it's just part of the deal isn't it? Police officers take on a job with their eyes wide open and then moan about the conditions.

Being a copper would be a tough job and I don't want it, I couldn't take the BS, the low-lifes and the violence but this is a forum and people get so wound up about what someone says in cyberspace. I'm a bit bamboozled, not winding anyone up, just observing the reactions.

Lighten TFU, kaaaarm orrrn. Not wound up at all,its a day off and its pissing down,ran out of things to do in the garage so its the tele or KB.....tough choice really,at least on tele days of our lives only lasts an hour.:beer:

[idleidolidyll]

Laughing like I was when your buddy got wacked, or more like a snigger?

my buddy?

you on drugs tonight Finn?

[idleidolidyll]

I asked the coppers to identify themselves but none have: go figure

vested interests anyone?

[idleidolidyll]

night dahlinks, gotta go collect money for greenpeace, save some starving africans and cheer for Ahmed Zaoui

back tomorrow for more fun perhaps; i'm sure you'll miss my sparkling wit and incisive logic when i'm gone

[Hitcher]

i'm sure you'll miss my sparkling wit and incisive logic when i'm gone

"Shining wit", if my recollection of Dr Spooner's description serves me right.

[idleidolidyll]

OK

'spose you've been watching all the fun

night billy-bob, night marta-lou; you know your progeny will be your cousin too don't ya?

[scumdog]

WE WON, WE WON WE WON!!!!!

Nyeah nyeah nyeah!!


:Pokey:

[Finn]

night dahlinks, gotta go collect money for greenpeace, save some starving africans and cheer for Ahmed Zaoui

Nighty night Granddad. Gotta go too... got 4 litres of used oil to tip down the drain then I might trade some blood diamonds in Belgium but not before I donate some money to Bush's anti terrorism fund.

[peasea]

Yup, we moan about the 'conditions' - on KB.

But we also get sick of self-opinionated trolling slack-jawed mouth-breathing watery-spunk lack-wits who spout off shit like it's fact.

And besides, ain't we allowed to troll or hold opinions too????

Hell yeah, it's all good.

[98tls]

Monday i got myself a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign...inwardly the rage built within me and i prayed to the gods for a hammer so i to could run at a policeman with murder on my mind but then reminding myself of the consequences of such actions i replayed my actions realised i didnt stop and accepted the ticket from the i might add rather good looking policewoman.:innocent:

[Mom]

go back 5 hours and read my posts; i don't care to repeat myself for the lazy

Shit mate not many of us have the time to re-read your posts from 5 hours ago...you are such a prolific poster today (I gave up counting at 70 today alone) after such a heavenly break from your vitriole!

Your opinion of how things should be here makes me question your sanity, seriously I am not joking. If you really feel like this why not go back to your personal Nirvana. This poor bastard was faced (alledgedly, for Hitcher) with an out of control person with a raised hammer, he was trained in the use of fire arms, he used his training (alledgedly) to attempt to stop this bloke and yet was reduced to the base line..........HIM or ME!!!!!!! Personally I think he made the right choice.

Rednecks of the forum unite!

[mstriumph]

..................
There, I have got some of that empathy stuff.

but i'll bet you got it discount ........:innocent:

[scumdog]

Rednecks of the forum unite!


Oooh-yeah!!!!!:woohoo:

[peasea]

Monday i got myself a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign...inwardly the rage built within me and i prayed to the gods for a hammer so i to could run at a policeman with murder on my mind but then reminding myself of the consequences of such actions i replayed my actions realised i didnt stop and accepted the ticket from the i might add rather good looking policewoman.:innocent:

Was it Petunia?

[peasea]

Oooh-yeah!!!!!:woohoo:

You have to admit; it's been fun. Took everyone's attention from the 111kph shite. Momentarily.

[Dilligaf]

I find it interesting that when someone (anyone) takes a police officer to task (or takes the piss) on kb, be it personally or even hypothetically, all the police officers in creation get so defensive. Why is that? Are nerves being struck? Is there any chance, albeit the slimmest imaginable chance, that some (even one or two) things that III has posted have a gossamer-thin thread of truth to them?

Not jumping on the wagon here guys and gals, just tipping my head sideways and going...hmmmmm.

Whenever someone takes a shot (however cheap) at the police there are guns appearing from the woodwork and they're all blazing. Why so sensitive? There's heat in the kitchen and there always will be, it goes with the territory and while I'm sure police officers get tired of it (like HD owners get tired of sb riders mouthing off) it's just part of the deal isn't it? Police officers take on a job with their eyes wide open and then moan about the conditions.




I think because a) they are facing a lot of flack lately from Rickards onwards. Not all of them are pack rapists but have to put up with slurs from every idiot they meet who thinks they are a comedian.
b) they took on the job perhaps 10 years ago - tell me that society hasn't changed significantly in that time.
c) reckon it would be so for any other profession that got constantly slammed on kb.

I am not a cop - I used to be a teacher. I will not go back teaching because of the same reason I don't envy the police their jobs. A distinct lack of respect for any other person in society is the way NZ has become.
And because I have never had a run in with the police, nor a speeding ticket, I have no grudge to bear them. I respect the job that they do and am grateful when they take out another loser in society who given the chance may decide to take a hammer to a loved one of mine. Personally I am getting absolutely fed up with the fact that noone ever has to take responsibility for their actions anymore. What a twisted arse about society we have become where blame can always be laid somewhere other than the idiots among us.
Finn, I have apparently given you too much bling lately - you crack me up mate.

[pritch]

I asked the coppers to identify themselves but none have: go figure

The ones I'm aware of actually do exactly that.
Although that isn't to say there are no others.

There's none so bind as those who will not see...

[Skyryder]

I find it interesting that when someone (anyone) takes a police officer to task (or takes the piss) on kb, be it personally or even hypothetically, all the police officers in creation get so defensive. Why is that? Are nerves being struck? Is there any chance, albeit the slimmest imaginable chance, that some (even one or two) things that III has posted have a gossamer-thin thread of truth to them?

Not jumping on the wagon here guys and gals, just tipping my head sideways and going...hmmmmm.

Whenever someone takes a shot (however cheap) at the police there are guns appearing from the woodwork and they're all blazing. Why so sensitive? There's heat in the kitchen and there always will be, it goes with the territory and while I'm sure police officers get tired of it (like HD owners get tired of sb riders mouthing off) it's just part of the deal isn't it? Police officers take on a job with their eyes wide open and then moan about the conditions.




I think because a) they are facing a lot of flack lately from Rickards onwards. Not all of them are pack rapists but have to put up with slurs from every idiot they meet who thinks they are a comedian.
b) they took on the job perhaps 10 years ago - tell me that society hasn't changed significantly in that time.
c) reckon it would be so for any other profession that got constantly slammed on kb.

I am not a cop - I used to be a teacher. I will not go back teaching because of the same reason I don't envy the police their jobs. A distinct lack of respect for any other person in society is the way NZ has become.
And because I have never had a run in with the police, nor a speeding ticket, I have no grudge to bear them. I respect the job that they do and am grateful when they take out another loser in society who given the chance may decide to take a hammer to a loved one of mine. Personally I am getting absolutely fed up with the fact that noone ever has to take responsibility for their actions anymore. What a twisted arse about society we have become where blame can always be laid somewhere other than the idiots among us.
Finn, I have apparently given you too much bling lately - you crack me up mate.

Most of the sentiments that you express have been conveyed elsewhere but in essensence its a camarediee thing. Bit like us bikers most will go in bat even if the guy is in the wrong.

The interesting thin about this thread is that most express the use of tazors. I come from a different position. I would sooner see the status quo where a cop who belives that his life is in danger ect has the use of a firearm to deal with that threat than issue tazors that will be used against unarmed people.

I think this is the issue. Not one of a tasor against a knife, hammer or for that matter a firearm, ect weilding indavidual. If it came to choices I wonder what the cops would prefer, the real thing or a tazor against a shotgun. That's an extreem position I know but them's the choices. Hell I'd even up the calibre.

Skyryder

[Edbear]

And because I have never had a run in with the police,



That's funny, neither have I. I don't consider myself likely to be shot, tazered or batonned by a Policeman either. Wonder why that is?:confused:

[SPman]

Alt Tv/Fleet FM Breakfast News Comment
'Don't name shooter cop' (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4220497a11.html)
The Police Association has appealed for the media not to name the officer who fatally shot a man in Christchurch, after details were revealed about his history in the force. Newspapers said yesterday the officer who shot Stephen Bellingham had previously shot and injured another person and has also successfully defended charges of assaulting prisoners. He has served on the frontline for more than 30 years. So this cop who shot Stephen Bellingham has already been up for shooting someone and has had allegations of beating prisoners in the back of prison vans and has had two accusations of use of unnecessary force, all of which has been ‘investigated’ by the none transperant secret cops investigating cops system we have at the moment. Hmmm – and we are told to shut up, not ask questions and trust the cops to investigate it again.

apparently........

[peasea]

The ones I'm aware of actually do exactly that.
Although that isn't to say there are no others.

There's none so bind as those who will not see...

Bad grammar mate, "there ARE none so blind" etc

[98tls]

Bad grammar mate, "there ARE none so blind" etc i like his version mate.......makes you think hand-cuffs and other kinky shit.:woohoo:

[peasea]

I think because a) they are facing a lot of flack lately from Rickards onwards. Not all of them are pack rapists but have to put up with slurs from every idiot they meet who thinks they are a comedian.
b) they took on the job perhaps 10 years ago - tell me that society hasn't changed significantly in that time.
c) reckon it would be so for any other profession that got constantly slammed on kb.

I am not a cop - I used to be a teacher. I will not go back teaching because of the same reason I don't envy the police their jobs. A distinct lack of respect for any other person in society is the way NZ has become.
And because I have never had a run in with the police, nor a speeding ticket, I have no grudge to bear them. I respect the job that they do and am grateful when they take out another loser in society who given the chance may decide to take a hammer to a loved one of mine. Personally I am getting absolutely fed up with the fact that noone ever has to take responsibility for their actions anymore. What a twisted arse about society we have become where blame can always be laid somewhere other than the idiots among us.
Finn, I have apparently given you too much bling lately - you crack me up mate.


Responsibilty for their actions?
Oh yeah. That says a whole bunch in so few words. Hey, I might have an attitude on bad hair days but seriously? I don't go running around with raised hammers, swinging golf clubs and running my car into groups of party-goers. When it comes to my mouth (postings etc) you can call me all the names under the sun that you can think of, but my life (and that of my family) is above board. That's why I don't get turned over every weekend, have shootouts for Sunday afternoon tea and blow my family up with botched-up P labs.

I think, in all seriousness, I am responsible for my actions and while I'm constantly taking the piss out of everything that moves or doesn't move, I've instilled in my offspring a true sense of responsibility.

Again Dg, you're right, some (personal) responsibility needs to come to the fore. I'm on your side with that comment.

[peasea]

i like his version mate.......makes you think hand-cuffs and other kinky shit.:woohoo:

Pink, fluffy cuffs, hmmmm

[crshbndct]

its funny how in 26 years of life, i have never once been arrested for anything, not even charged, and have had tickets for parking but only 3 for speeding.

possibly there should be ads on tv similiar to the intersection ones that go something like: "life bad calls can be deadly"
and have a guy sitting at home trying to decide whether pick up either a weapon and attempt to brain someone, or a remote control and watch tv a bit.
he decides to brain someone and a dozen cops empty their magazines into him.

something like that.

[pritch]

Bad grammar mate, "there ARE none so blind" etc

Granted regarding the grammar, but that is messing around with the quotation
which I believe to be correct as stated. That could start a whole new thread though....

[Hitcher]

"There is none so blind as they that won't see". Jonathan Swift, Polite Conversation. Dialogue III.

"There is none" is grammatically correct. "None" in that context is singular, so therefore the "is" as the singular form of the verb to be is correct.

[Patrick]

Y E S H E W A S, I S T I L L R E F U S E T O S W A L L O W P O L I C E P R O P A G A N D A A S R E A D I L Y A S Y O U.

Yet you so readily are able to swallow that offered by the convict neighbour... fond memories of times past perhaps???


I find it interesting that when someone (anyone) takes a police officer to task (or takes the piss) on kb, be it personally or even hypothetically, all the police officers in creation get so defensive....etc

Just pointing out the obvious to those who can't see (or don't want to see)... I offer a perspective from this side of the fence, is all... Some think they know all about Policing and the world they see through their rose tinted lenses... Some call it defensive. I call it balance.

[idleidolidyll]

Yet you so readily are able to swallow that offered by the convict neighbour... fond memories of times past perhaps???



that kind of childish ad hominem is the last refuge a loser.

cheers, i accept your defeat

[idleidolidyll]

So there ya have it. The redneck tries character assassination by alluding that anyone who complains about the actions of cops is a criminal.

no attempt at Aristotelean reasoning, no sign of ethos, pathos or logos at all: way to lose dude

[jrandom]

<img src="http://www.mega.bz/rotfl/images/argue091204.jpg"/>

I predict the imminent triggering of Godwin's Law.

[Patrick]

peacenik?

hilarious! valuing human life gets one branded as a peacenik now.

i suppose it's better than being called cuntstable


that kind of childish ad hominem is the last refuge a loser.

cheers, i accept your defeat

I guess you accepted your own defeat back then at the above post...


So there ya have it. The redneck tries character assassination by alluding that anyone who complains about the actions of cops is a criminal.

no attempt at Aristotelean reasoning, no sign of ethos, pathos or logos at all: way to lose dude

Dunno how you get redneck out of my supporting a cop saving his own life, whatever names get you through I suppose... see above...

Your idol, the one with the prison tats, is not my idea of an independant witness. He was the one who claimed their neighbour and mate was shot for just standing there with his hands at his sides, when everyone else, who didn't know the guy nor served time, gave their views. Those views are easier to comprehend, make sense, and are able to be believed.

[idleidolidyll]

i give back what i get. you guys got all bitchy that i was posting an opposing opinion so i used your own nonsense to make dicks of you.

judging from the ratings and pm's i got yesterday (11 in total and only one negative), it seems i am well supported in my opinions even if others can't be bothered putting up with your 'style' of so called debate.

Again; the cop saving his own life is police propaganda; the saame bullshit line greg oconnor automatically offers every timew some cop does something the public might not like. that you suck it down so readily indicates to me that you're either a cop or a redneck or both.
From what I can determine, the cop escalated the situation in which nobody had been threatened and then, without considering backing off or any other alternatives, shot the guy who turns out to have been pretty much just an ordinary guy who lost it out of character.

again; the message being sent by cops is that they are nopt prepared to even consider alternatives and will kill people for traffic offences or property damage.

[jrandom]

...even if others can't be bothered putting up with your 'style' of so called debate.

I think you do realise that you're arguing by assertion, and have failed to provide a sound logical chain for your conclusions. You've mentioned Socrates already; I doubt you're unfamiliar with the canonical logical fallacies.

However, your reaction to the situation is understandable. How you choose to argue a point against people disagreeing with you, though, is something you have to square with your own conscience; I smell intellectual dishonesty being brought to play, here.

*shrug*

You know, I'm curious as to whether, apart from ranting on the internet, you do anything to change the sociopolitical situation around you.

[idleidolidyll]

actually i mentioned aristotle not socrates and yes, i am vey familiar with the gamut of logical fallacies: i've even completed a research project around them based on online debate.

rather than provide your so called 'sound logical chain' without full disclosure of all the facts and witness statements, i've offered an alternative viewpoint to the one offered by greg oconnor and sucked down by the sychophants here so readily.

if there is a truly independent investigation (and i doubt there will be), we may learn all the facts and will ALL then be in a position to argue based on full logos. Until then, I will continue to offer counter arguments to the 'party line' and opinions based on what I believe we should be doing as opposed to the status quo.

[jrandom]

i mentioned aristotle not socrates...

Ayup. All-a them classical buggers kinda fade together after a while.


if there is a truly independent investigation (and i doubt there will be), we may learn all the facts and will ALL then be in a position to argue based on full logos...

And now you move from arguing by assertion to silently shifting your position. You haven't just been offering an alternate point of view; you have been stridently asserting that the dead guy was shot because he caused property damage, which simply doesn't make sense in any conceivable scenario, and paints you as being driven solely by your apparent dislike of the police.

And it's that assertion that your opponents, here, are taking issue with.

Believing that a police officer in this country would knowingly shoot an unarmed and/or nonaggressive individual as some sort of sadistic power-trip constitutes unjustifiable paranoia.

You may wish to stipulate that, yes, you believe that Mr Anonymous Copper is, in fact, a sadistic killer who shot a man for no good reason, but don't try to dress that statement up and offer it as an "alternative point of view". It's patently ridiculous. (Yes, I know you think it's not ridiculous. Shall we just leave that difference in opinion clearly defined, and move on from here?)

[crshbndct]

i will say this: i do not agree with III but then i believe this too:

arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics: even if you win, your still a retard.

(i realise that this is a pretty mean statement but the meaning of it is what i am talking about)

[crshbndct]

wow i need to get faster connection, i didnt see the pic. i got beatone like a red headed step child

[kiwifruit]

Well I won't back down
No I won't back down
You can stand me up at the gates of hell
But I won't back down

No I'll stand my ground, won't be turned around
And I'll keep this world from draggin me down
gonna stand my ground
... and I won't back down

[jrandom]

arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics: even if you win, your still a retard.

My boyfriend goaded me when I backed down, earlier, and isn't going to put out for ages unless I win this argument.

[idleidolidyll]

No patrick, I've been countering your bullshit police propaganda.

your extreme viewpoint generates the opposite from me so that those watching are not exposed to just one side of the story.

I fervently believe the police value police reputation above the lives of Kiwis and that the closing of ranks we see in these cases damages both the police and NZ society.

your attempts to use fallacious debate to paint me as a criminal or peacenik or whatever childish nonsense you offer at any one time only makes me more determined to expose you for what you are: a police sycophant sucking down and offering up the closed rank cop line without a thought for humanity or society.

and of course there you go again doing the same by suggesting i believe the cop was a sadistic power tripper.
save your fallacious bullshit for simple minded fools, i'm not that easily defused.

my viewpoint is indeed an alternate viewpoint and that it is diametrically opposite to yours is exactly the point. You are arguing from a position of bias; you're a cop and you are toing the party line and expect us too to suck it down without question.

tough shit, i'm here to point out that cop spin is often thinly disguised croneyism

[idleidolidyll]

BTW: that reply is to ALL the coppers here offering the same propaganda

[jrandom]

No patrick, I've been countering your bullshit police propaganda.

Hang on, it's me here. jrandom. My name's Dan. Patrick's a cop; I'm not. Heh. I am so not...


your extreme viewpoint...

I don't have an extreme viewpoint; I've just observed that, generally, 99% of normal people are reluctant to hurt others, and that your view of police motivations seems unjustifiably paranoid.


I fervently believe the police value police reputation above the lives of Kiwis...

I'll just let that statement sit there. Read it again. Does it sound balanced to you? Reasonable? Normal?


your attempts to use fallacious debate to paint me as a criminal or peacenik or whatever childish nonsense you offer at any one time only makes me more determined to expose you for what you are: a police sycophant sucking down and offering up the closed rank cop line without a thought for humanity or society.

and of course there you go again doing the same by suggesting i believe the cop was a sadistic power tripper.

Are you confusing me with Patrick again, here?

If the cop shot the guy in any circumstance other than a dire situation requiring self defence, then yes, he could be accused of being a sadistic power-tripper. Taking a life is no light matter.


tough shit, i'm here to point out that cop spin is often thinly disguised croneyism

I should point out that, as is the case with many on this forum, close 24/7 attention from our friends in blue uniforms would probably be quite detrimental to my lifestyle. I'm no sycophant. I do, though, think that cops are generally just average guys trying to do a good job in a bad situation.

Your position appears to be driven by fear, loathing and paranoia rather than by anything approaching a balanced assessment of likely actions and motivations.

[peasea]

"There is none so blind as they that won't see". Jonathan Swift, Polite Conversation. Dialogue III.

"There is none" is grammatically correct. "None" in that context is singular, so therefore the "is" as the singular form of the verb to be is correct.

...and to clear it up for the Yorkshiremen; "there be fuck all round these 'ere parts that 'aven't been seein' nuffin coz they won't"

[Usarka]

just as well the coppas weren't around last week I was out with some jokers and one had a pill I said that better be panadol and he said nah its E

bahahaha

[peasea]

just as well the coppas weren't around last week I was out with some jokers and one had a pill I said that better be panadol and he said nah its E

bahahaha

Any good? How much? Can he get any more?

[pritch]

...and to clear it up for the Yorkshiremen; "there be fuck all round these 'ere parts that 'aven't been seein' nuffin coz they won't"

I have been contemplating Hitcher's earlier post attributing the "none so blind" quotation to Swift. I'm not sure if Swift's was the original, but will accept that as a given since I have no evidence to the contrary.

I'm ambivalent about this as I find it frustrating when I see celebrities "improving" the work of literary giants, so to be potentially doing the same thing myself gives rise to a slight sense of guilt.

In my defence I'd like to say that my, "There's none so blind as they that will not see", (which appears to be in common use) does at least possess the advantage of iambic pentameter. Neither of the versions as propounded by Peasea or Hitcher/Swift possess such linguistic elegance.

Which is a long way of saying that I was pleased when I thought that this bloody thread had died yesterday. Sadly it seems it was only sleeping.:zzzz:

[peasea]

I have been contemplating Hitcher's earlier post attributing the "none so blind" quotation to Swift. I'm not sure if Swift's was the original, but will accept that as a given since I have no evidence to the contrary.

I'm ambivalent about this as I find it frustrating when I see celebrities "improving" the work of literary giants, so to be potentially doing the same thing myself gives rise to a slight sense of guilt.

In my defence I'd like to say that my, "There's none so blind as they that will not see", (which appears to be in common use) does at least possess the advantage of iambic pentameter. Neither of the versions as propounded by Peasea or Hitcher/Swift possess such linguistic elegance.

Which is a long way of saying that I was pleased when I thought that this bloody thread had died yesterday. Sadly it seems it was only sleeping.:zzzz:

Like you need linguistic elegance on kb, wtf?
Did you catch the shoot-em-ups on brekkie tv? Where's the thread on that lot?

[Mr Merde]

......
Did you catch the shoot-em-ups on brekkie tv? Where's the thread on that lot?

Missed brekkie tv, tell me more about these shoot-em-ups.

[peasea]

Missed brekkie tv, tell me more about these shoot-em-ups.

It was in Porirua, about ten shots (I might be wrong on the exact figure) fired in quick sccession. Sounded like the OK Corral.


From stuff.co.nz;

"As armed police arrested a man after a stand-off in Upper Hutt last night, another group of armed police were called to Porirua, where a man threatened them with a dog about 10pm.


After an hour-long stand off at an address in Warspite Ave, Waitangirua, the man set the enraged Rottweiller on the police.

Police fired a number of shots at the dog before setting police dogs on to the offender and arresting him."

[scumdog]

It was in Porirua, about ten shots (I might be wrong on the exact figure) fired in quick sccession. Sounded like the OK Corral.


From stuff.co.nz;

"As armed police arrested a man after a stand-off in Upper Hutt last night, another group of armed police were called to Porirua, where a man threatened them with a dog about 10pm.


After an hour-long stand off at an address in Warspite Ave, Waitangirua, the man set the enraged Rottweiller on the police.

Police fired a number of shots at the dog before setting police dogs on to the offender and arresting him."

Wish I had been there!

Shee-it, didja see that rottie scoot when the lead was flying in his direction, hooo-boy, run doggie, run!

[peasea]

Wish I had been there!

Shee-it, didja see that rottie scoot when the lead was flying in his direction, hooo-boy, run doggie, run!

I didn't see that, I was doing two things at once and heard the gunfire on the box, didn't actually see much. Will have another nosey at 6pm.

[Skyryder]

Wish I had been there!

Shee-it, didja see that rottie scoot when the lead was flying in his direction, hooo-boy, run doggie, run!

Twelve shots and all missed. :nono: Fuck I wouldna giv 'im a water pistol.:done:


Skyryder

[Finn]

Shee-it, didja see that rottie scoot when the lead was flying in his direction, hooo-boy, run doggie, run!

Smart doggie. Knows when to back down when confronted by a firearm.

[idb]

Smart doggie. Knows when to back down when confronted by a firearm.

The one time he is probably happy not to have opposable thumbs...

[Patrick]

No patrick, I've been countering your bullshit police propaganda.

Aint mine, just what I've seen... as have the others posting on here

your extreme viewpoint generates the opposite from me so that those watching are not exposed to just one side of the story.

Again, aint mine... just eyewitness accounts, but hey, they must ALL be wrong, ay???...

I fervently believe the police value police reputation above the lives of Kiwis and that the closing of ranks we see in these cases damages both the police and NZ society.

The bosses might value Police reputation... look at the porngate saga... Life is valued, but the cop valued his life more than that of the hammer man.

your attempts to use fallacious debate to paint me as a criminal or peacenik or whatever childish nonsense you offer at any one time only makes me more determined to expose you for what you are: a police sycophant sucking down and offering up the closed rank cop line without a thought for humanity or society.

Just a play on what you had said, about swallowing the bosses offerings... You started the namecalling, but hey, heres some news for ya... heard it all before.:zzzz:

Peacenik? WTF is that?

Closed rank? It is all out there for all to see. Your line about the guy getting shot for breaking windows is just nonsense so I pointed that out... You are the one who went into name calling and obvious anti police sentiments, hence the cellmate routine.... If the name fits...

and of course there you go again doing the same by suggesting i believe the cop was a sadistic power tripper.

You have made that point clear, often and regularly... he was shot for breaking windows, remember?

save your fallacious bullshit for simple minded fools, i'm not that easily defused.

my viewpoint is indeed an alternate viewpoint and that it is diametrically opposite to yours is exactly the point. You are arguing from a position of bias; you're a cop and you are toing the party line and expect us too to suck it down without question.

I am arguing from a position of common sense. You fell for the neighbours story, hook line and sinker. You feel that the cop shot a man for breaking a few windows and was doing nothing, just standing there with his hands at his sides when he was shot... If that was the case, the cop is doomed to a murder charge. My point is simple... the multitude of witnesses say the complete opposite of what that neighbour claims. Or are these witnesses in on the party line too? You are not making sense.

tough shit, i'm here to point out that cop spin is often thinly disguised croneyism

Croneyism? Conspiracy Theory? I liked that movie...

[Mom]

Croneyism? Conspiracy Theory? I liked that movie...

"Peacenik? WTF is that?

Closed rank? It is all out there for all to see. Your line about the guy getting shot for breaking windows is just nonsense so I pointed that out... You are the one who went into name calling and obvious anti police sentiments, hence the cellmate routine.... If the name fits..."

Hey Patrick I was thinking the same so I looked it up

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/peacenik

Last thing he could be called, and you did not call him it, those are his words not yours.

Debate with this gentleman is pointless as he will twist and turn and wriggle to ensure that his opinions change ever so slightly each time, you will never win, take my advice mate and dont bother.


:Offtopic: PS did you ever sort out that tenancy issue finally?

[peasea]

Twelve shots and all missed. :nono: Fuck I wouldna giv 'im a water pistol.:done:


Skyryder

Well, I wet myself when I heard the final count! That wasn't a quick-moving dog either, looked a bit chubby to me.

Faaarkin funny.

Twelve shots.

My sides hurt.

Karrrm on, that's terrible!

[scumdog]

Well, I wet myself when I heard the final count! That wasn't a quick-moving dog either, looked a bit chubby to me.

Faaarkin funny.

Twelve shots.

My sides hurt.

Karrrm on, that's terrible!

Hell no - why drop the dog with the first shot when it means you won't have anything to shoot at anymore?


(BTW: how many of you out there have shot a running dog with a pistol under those circumstances? - probably only those that can out-ride Rossi I'd say at a guess!)

[Skyryder]

The Government just announced the result of the Tazor trial. Failed. The police are going to be armed instead with twelve shot pooper scoopers.:beer:


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Hell no - why drop the dog with the first shot when it means you won't have anything to shoot at anymore?


(BTW: how many of you out there have shot a running dog with a pistol under those circumstances? - probably only those that can out-ride Rossi I'd say at a guess!)

Actually dogs can be hard to hit when moving. Years back when I worked on a farm the area had a dog worrying sheep. Cut a long story short we came across the dog on night while spotighting there were three of us and the dog tool of. Blam blam blam. I still swear to this day that it was my shot that bought the dog down but since I was only a 17 year old farm hand the two cockies were never going to give me the credit. Mine was the third blam.

One simple thing with fire arms. If you don't have a bead, don't shoot.

Skyryder

[Finn]

Well don't worry, a few more weeks target practice with dumbass's like the other day and next time, the dog won't be so lucky.

I reckon we should pay the police a commission for every shooting incident. The business case would stack up so it is easily justified. I suggest the following point system...

1 Point - Limb shot
2 Points - Torso (but alive)
5 Points - Head shot
10 Points - Multiple heads shots
15 Points - In the back of the head

[Mr Merde]

Look the dog didnt have either a hammer or a golf club and it wasnt a member of the public.

How do you expect the marksmen to actually hit something they havent had much practice at shooting with no point of reference with which to aim at.

Take it easy they are buildnig up to actually hitting the correct target at the correct time.

They start out with easy targets like their own legs and progress to things they actually shold shoot.

Supprised they didnt bring out the AOS to parade around in their paramilitary kit, looking hard and menacing while having an opportunity to finally use their wonderful Bushmasters.

[sAsLEX]

Well don't worry, a few more weeks target practice with dumbass's like the other day and next time, the dog won't be so lucky.

I reckon we should pay the police a commission for every shooting incident. The business case would stack up so it is easily justified. I suggest the following point system...

1 Point - Limb shot
2 Points - Torso (but alive)
5 Points - Head shot
10 Points - Multiple heads shots
15 Points - In the back of the head

50 Points - Two kills with one round.

[Coldrider]

(BTW: how many of you out there have shot a running dog with a pistol under those circumstances? - probably only those that can out-ride Rossi I'd say at a guess!)
Pig hunters.......of the trotter variety of course

[Mr Merde]

..
(BTW: how many of you out there have shot a running dog with a pistol under those circumstances? - probably only those that can out-ride Rossi I'd say at a guess!)

I would probably have to reply with the following;

Anyone who has been properly trained in the use of a pistol and has enough experience with such so as to be able to hit a standard target at 25 meters with some semblence of accuracy and consistantcy.

Any one else should not be out with such a weapon as they are as much a danger to themselves as they are to others.


Sorry SD you know I am an avid pistol shooter.


Also to answer the comment about pig hunters. I would like to point out that it is illegal to hunt with a pistol in NZ so how could they have the experience (legally).

[sAsLEX]

Also to answer the comment about pig hunters. I would like to point out that it is illegal to hunt with a pistol in NZ so how could they have the experience (legally).

Any idea why?

[Mr Merde]

Any idea why?

I dont know the exact reason but one of the provisions of getting a pistol licence is that it can only be used on a certified range and that \you must attend 12 competitive days a year.

Pistols were allowed into NZ as sporting equipment only.

I also get the feeling that a lot of people dont really know what a well trained person and a good pistol are capable of.

J D Jones an American gunsmith and barrel maker has taken Elephant and Rhino with a handgun. Bear have been taken, as have Lion etc.

Given that the person using the pistol is trained and knows how to use it, there is no game in NZ that cant be taken with one. All you need is skill both in pistol use and hunting skills. Same sort of distances as bow hunting would be perfedt.

Merde.

[Coldrider]

Also to answer the comment about pig hunters. I would like to point out that it is illegal to hunt with a pistol in NZ so how could they have the experience (legally).
I was going to clarify but the one-liner would be lost.

[Mr Merde]

I was going to clarify but the one-liner would be lost.

My appologies for jumping in. Firearms safety is something I am very concerned about. In that shooting is my sport and I tend to get very defensive about obeying the rules. Even those I do not actually believe in I do obey.

Merde

[Coldrider]

My appologies for jumping in. Firearms safety is something I am very concerned about. In that shooting is my sport and I tend to get very defensive about obeying the rules. Even those I do not actually believe in I do obey.

Merde
I totally agree. It only takes one or two ##### to wreck it for everyone.
I have a mate who had his firemans confiscated by Speights in Fiji, he never got them back. (Nothing to do with the comment though, but out of interest).

[peasea]

Hell no - why drop the dog with the first shot when it means you won't have anything to shoot at anymore?


(BTW: how many of you out there have shot a running dog with a pistol under those circumstances? - probably only those that can out-ride Rossi I'd say at a guess!)

Conversely, if you empty your mag into a mutt and there's a nutter behind said mutt (with a weapon) then what?

Admit it, 12 shots like that is 'panic mode'.

[scumdog]

Conversely, if you empty your mag into a mutt and there's a nutter behind said mutt (with a weapon) then what?

Admit it, 12 shots like that is 'panic mode'.

12 shots?

He still had 5 more to go before being empty - and would have had a spare mag with another 17.

[davereid]

Hell no - why drop the dog with the first shot when it means you won't have anything to shoot at anymore?

Nah, its ok to keep shooting long after the target is dead.

Just hold the gun to the targets head and keep shooting.

That way you wont miss as much.

BANG BANG
BANG BANG
BANG BANG
BANG


"Halt - British Transport Police"

"Fuck, its just a sparky - nick the trains survelliance tape Bill, theres a good lad, we'll tell 'em the prick had a hammer"

[peasea]

12 shots?

He still had 5 more to go before being empty - and would have had a spare mag with another 17.


However many.......it was a string of shots then, whatever.

I'm not saying I wouldn't panic with a fat, lumbering dog waddling toward me but if I did panic I wouldn't be shooting up the neighbourhood....coz I don't carry a gun, (much as I'd like to on occasion) and frankly I don't think anyone else who hasn't had umpteen hours of training with firearms should carry one either.

[idleidolidyll]

I received a private message while I was away yesterday.

The writer should have posted it on the open forum but didn't for their own reasoons. I will respect their privacy and won't divulge who posted it but I do believe that the points he raises deserve airing and answering in the open rather than behind the closed doors of PM.

here's what he said:

<o></o><o></o>
"Patrick is a cop. He makes no secret of it, it's on every post he sends. Scumdog also is a cop and that is mentioned frequently in various threads, both are relatively senior in so far as neither are constables. I think there may be at least two other serving Police who appear on KB from time to time.

I mentioned in another post some months ago that I had met both Patrick and Scumdog and thought they would dignify an intelligent question with an intelligent answer. I still consider that to be true but I guess they are human and will respond negatively to ill-informed goading.

Would you want to be a cop? I know I couldn't be bothered with the crap they have to put up with."<o></o>
<o></o><o></o>
Here's my reply (not PM'd to him)

It's irrelevant what they are like in person. I too may be quite different to what you expect in person.<o></o>
<o></o>
My comments are not “ill informed goading” they are relevant public concerns over police actions and training.<o></o>

What matters is that on this forum they are pumping the Greg O'Connor spin or if you like; the "closed ranks spin" as hard as they can before the investigation is completed and that spin is the usual compassion free blanket whitewash of police action.

Their gross use of fallacious argument tactics indicates the shallowness of their argument and the extent to which it is an extreme one. I offer here the opposite extreme and I make no bones about that. To be given a one sided story and be asked to decide on that basis smacks of fascism and big brotherism.

My attacks are NOT on the specific cop; they are on the poor training of cops in general and their belief that they have limited choices in these situations. The condensed version of their argument is that the guy deserved to be killed.

That's bullshit, he deserved to be jailed certainly, he did not deserve to be killed and the message being sent IS that the police don't give a damn for human life whether that be in these kinds of cases or when chasing a car full of youths to their deaths.<o></o><o></o>
No, I wouldn’t want to be a cop but that doesn’t mean I want cops to kill people either.<o></o>

[Patrick]

Anyone who has been properly trained in the use of a pistol and has enough experience with such so as to be able to hit a standard target at 25 meters with some semblence of accuracy and consistantcy.

Most of our training is at close range with a pistol, reaction shoot/double tap at 1 metre out to 20 metres aimed, at a cardboard cutout. If there is time to aim at 20-25 metres, there might also be time to back out. The fact is, Police shootings are usually at very close quarters, just like the one in CHCH.


<o></o>
My comments are not “ill informed goading” they are relevant public concerns over police actions and training.<o></o>

What matters is that on this forum they are pumping the Greg O'Connor spin or if you like; the "closed ranks spin" as hard as they can before the investigation is completed and that spin is the usual compassion free blanket whitewash of police action.

Their gross use of fallacious argument tactics indicates the shallowness of their argument and the extent to which it is an extreme one. I offer here the opposite extreme and I make no bones about that. To be given a one sided story and be asked to decide on that basis smacks of fascism and big brotherism.

My attacks are NOT on the specific cop; they are on the poor training of cops in general and their belief that they have limited choices in these situations. The condensed version of their argument is that the guy deserved to be killed.

That's bullshit, he deserved to be jailed certainly, he did not deserve to be killed and the message being sent IS that the police don't give a damn for human life whether that be in these kinds of cases or when chasing a car full of youths to their deaths.<o></o><o></o>
No, I wouldn’t want to be a cop but that doesn’t mean I want cops to kill people either.<o></o>

Geez, you like that "fallacious" word dontcha? How many times is that now?

YOU are the one pumping the TV3 and the tattoed neighbour spin. You've decided to believe the tattoed con neighbour who is sticking up for his mate neighbour and probably has his own anti cop agenda (who, by the way, is on his own with his claims, excluding you). You choose to believe that he was shot for breaking windows.

I've chosen to believe the hoards of independant witnesses who say the nut had a go at killing the cop and believe that the cop deserved to go home to his family for doing his job.

No party line, no closing ranks, no Greg O'Connor platitudes, no closed ranks spin, nothing.... I've been on leave for the last week and have heard what is in the news and spouted on here.

You think there were other options, I think there wasn't. You think it is a bad result, I don't.

You getting all prissy with the big words, good for you. I keep it simple, like a simple thing really.... when the masses say the cop lived instead of the idiot, I am happy. Your view seems to be the opposite.

Quite right about awaiting the results of the full inquiry.... you chose not to wait, so I pointed out the opposite of your version you so strongly believe in.

[Finn]

...at a cardboard cutout.

Annette King per chance? Maybe Hulen?

[idleidolidyll]

''Geez, you like that "fallacious" word dontcha? How many times is that now?"

not as many times as you've used fallacy arguments and that's the point. Your fallaies are a huge sign pointing out that your argument is NOT based on logic.

as for the big words, i refuse to dumb down for dummies; that kind of attitude is what gets the likes of George Bush elected King of the Planet

I'll mongrel the rest of your post when I get back

[Swoop]

Annette King per chance? Maybe Hulen?
The use, of photographs of real people, was "frowned upon" some time back...

How PC.

[Mr Merde]

Most of our training is at close range with a pistol, reaction shoot/double tap at 1 metre out to 20 metres aimed, at a cardboard cutout. If there is time to aim at 20-25 metres, there might also be time to back out. The fact is, Police shootings are usually at very close quarters, just like the one in CHCH.



....

Patrick,

Just to let you know where i am comming from.

I compete in Cowboy Action Shooting. The pistol part is on steel targets (.5 m x .5m approx) shot at anything from 10-30 meters. Using single action pistols and drawn from the holster at the sound of a buzzer. I can usually get 10 shots off, all on target in 10-15 seconds. Thats slow. Top shooters can do it in 3-4 seconds.

At an average stage and under time we shoot usually 10 pistol (2 single shot pistiols with 5 rounds in each), 10 rifle (lever action) and 4-6 12 guage shotgun. On a standard run the good boys can do all this in under 20 seconds total, all in that 1/2 meter square plate. I usually take 30-40 seconds (I'm fat and slow). I also shoot that black popwder stuff and have trouble seeing through the clouds of white smoke.

I'm not saying that the police should be as fast as the top shooters but they should be as fast and as accurate as the middle range shooters. It only takes a little more practice and training.

I would also like to point out that there has never been an incident of anyone being accidentally shot at any competition in NZ. Speed is our game but safety our creed

[Delerium]

fallacie eh, is that sorta like flacid? :lol:

[Patrick]

Annette King per chance? Maybe Hulen?

Too scary, makes Policemen cry and run away, screaming...


not as many times as you've used fallacy arguments and that's the point. Your fallaies are a huge sign pointing out that your argument is NOT based on logic.

So wrong... many witnesses saying that the guy had a go with the hammer, but that is not factual in your realm and all these witnesses are wrong because it is a fallacy?

"Logic" tells me that the Policeman, fearing for his own life, shot this dude because he was having a go at him with a hammer, a "logic" backed up by multiple INDEPENDANT witnesses.

It is your argument that simply doesn't make sense and is illogical. He shot the guy for breaking windows, standing there with his hands at his sides, right?

Carry on.... if you must.... You don't need to dumb it down, you're doing a fine job on your own already. "Two short planks" comes to mind for some reason.

My point is clear, just not to you...


I'm not saying that the police should be as fast as the top shooters but they should be as fast and as accurate as the middle range shooters. It only takes a little more practice and training.

Thanks MM, I sort of followed where you were at from earlier posts. You probably also get to go to the range whenever you like. We get a day once every 6 months. Thats it.

[Mr Merde]

...

Thanks MM, I sort of followed where you were at from earlier posts. You probably also get to go to the range whenever you like. We get a day once every 6 months. Thats it.

Damm budget constraints and the upper echolon not giving the lower ranks the tools and or training/time needed to perform duties correctly.

Doesnt just happen here. I used to shoot a competition once a year in Cardiff against the South Wales armed offenders squad. 10 man team each.

We shot the discipline called PP1, as used by the FBI, which involved turning targets and time constraints. They never had anyone in their team place higher than 8th overall out of the 20 shooters total. They just didnt have the range time. They had the benifit of using our pistol range once a week for an afternoon but just couldnt get the shill up in that short time.

Merde

[Pex Adams]

I'm not going to read all of this - however my initial thoughts to this tread are

There's Klingon on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow
There's Klingon on the starboard bow; JIM

Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men.

It's worse than that, he's dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead, Jim;
it's worse than that, he's dead, Jim, dead, Jim, dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5Ydy90H4rY

[scumdog]

I'm with idle X 3.

The Christchurch cop shot the guy with hammer just because he could even though the guy was just standing there with his hands by his side.

So fuckin' what?.

[peasea]

I'm with idle X 3.

The Christchurch cop shot the guy with hammer just because he could even though the guy was just standing there with his hands by his side.

So fuckin' what?.


SD for Commissioner
SD for Commissioner

Filled out the application yet, have ya, have ya?

[idleidolidyll]

OK, here we go again (and yes, it IS getting circular).

To start with I've been attacked by my opposition for identifying their repeated use of many fallacy style arguments.
I encourage everyone here to study a this little as nothing destroys a good debate as quick as people throwing these about willy nilly.
As noted, I've studied the subject formally and specifically done a research project on "The use of fallacy arguments in internet debate". Of course I recognise their use and am quick to point them out.

Here's a bloody good web site explaining the various types of fallacy argument: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/introtof.html

I could identify some 20 specific fallacies used by those arguing against me. The use of ad hominem (personal attack) excluded. Basically, the use of these fallacies may not be deliberate or specifically designed to ruin debate; often the user doesn't even know they are doing it and could not define a particular fallacy if their life depended on it. That doesn't make their use any less odious so do yourself a favour and at least bookmark that page for the future.

Basically, if you fel uncomfortable about someone's argument style and can't see their logic, there's a good chance they're using one of these fallacies.

[idleidolidyll]

Now to the point again.

I came here when this thread was already old. What I saw was a couple of cops and what I'd call their sycophants trying to sell the police propaganda BEFORE any investigation had revealed anything let alone an independent investigation (something we'll never see in this case).

The callous discard displayed for human life by those arguments disgusted me and I determined to provide the polar opposite argument in order to engender rational debate rather than cronyism, sycophantic garbage and PR Spin.

I expected to be attacked with lots of ad hominem and i was not disappointed. I also expected a lot of junk debate and again, I was not wrong.

The first point to note is that the Police are supposed to serve the people of New Zealand, not serve the Police. As a citizen of this country, my opinion is not only valid, it is important and every bit as worthy as any argument offered by my detractors.

As servants of the people the Police must be bound by the moral restraints we, their employers, demand and be held to totally fair and transparent examination if their actions seem extreme. The examination up to now has NOT been transparent and fair since the Police themselves investigate the Police and therefore it is inconceivable that there is no bias in such investigations.

The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.

As I continued to say, it's about choices. The Police seem to reach far too readily for the gun. Human nature tells us that if you give someone a new toy, they will always want to use it (Whether they say so or not). That's also the argument against tasers: rather than reduce violent behaviour and resentment against police, it may actually increase these.

Add to that the 'right' Police give themselves to shoot to kill. My brother is an ex soldier and he's a crack shot with many years of training and experience with a weapon. I have no doubt that he is more skilled than 95%+ of all NZ Police in the use of firearms. However, if he drew a gun and killed an 'attacker' like the recent hammer weilding guy, the NZ Police would most likeley charge him immediately with murder, manslaughter and/or firearms offences as they have done on the recent past. Frankly, the less well trained Police with access to guns scares me and points to an Amerikan style police service where they see themselves as victims or above the law.

The arguments presented by the police here and by their supporters all basically said the guy deserved to die. They did not wait for an independent inquiry (perhaps because they already know that the Police will always protect their own). We KNOW the Police are not completely honest in every case and we have a number of very famous cases to point to in that regard: Arthur Allen Thomas and the recent sex cases for instance.

There was no attempt amongst them to even try and think of a better way to handle such a situation than drawing a gun and shooting it 4 times in a lethal manner. I tried to offer some suggestions and was immediately attacked by the dogs of war. Unlike some people, I'm not so easily intimidated and I am more than happy to fight back. The pm's I received in private support that and supported my arguments.

I am not attacking the cop specifically here, I am attacking police training and culture. I find it abhorrent and the disdain cops have for the views of their employers (taxpayers) disgusts me. I don't want to live in Amerika and I don't want most of that culture imported into New Zealand; I really believe we are better than that.

I also wonder about those here who took this opportunity to have a whine about dole bludgers etc. Why didn't they identify that these cops are spending our tax dollars here when they should have been working? Or is it that they WERE working for the Police SPIN machine? If these two are onlone in work hours, how many more are and if, like most businesses, such online time was banned in work hours, how much more could we get out of our Police force for the same money?

The cops here have as much right to post as I do. I'm on holiday however and I don't post from work. Next week my holiday is over and I'll be unable to post much here. I hope others are as disgusted as I am and take up the baton.

[Pex Adams]

Let me just add

Well, it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it; it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.

There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there's Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape 'em off, Jim.

[idleidolidyll]

Let me just add

Well, it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it; it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.

There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
there's Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape 'em off, Jim.

Pex, I truly believe you're the wisest person on this thread; self included

[Patrick]

Now to the point again.

I came here when this thread was already old. What I saw was a couple of cops and what I'd call their sycophants trying to sell the police propaganda BEFORE any investigation had revealed anything let alone an independent investigation (something we'll never see in this case).

And you weren't???

The callous discard displayed for human life by those arguments disgusted me and I determined to provide the polar opposite argument in order to engender rational debate rather than cronyism, sycophantic garbage and PR Spin.

Your callous disregard for the cops life disgusted me...

I expected to be attacked with lots of ad hominem and i was not disappointed.

Who commenced what, with the cuntstable call?

I also expected a lot of junk debate and again, I was not wrong.
The first point to note is that the Police are supposed to serve the people of New Zealand,

We do...

not serve the Police. As a citizen of this country, my opinion is not only valid, it is important and every bit as worthy as any argument offered by my detractors. As servants of the people the Police must be bound by the moral restraints we, their employers, demand and be held to totally fair and transparent examination if their actions seem extreme.

The media attacked first... they did the same at Waitara and boy, were lessons learned there... they said nothing then and look what happened, even the PM said "it may have been a racially motivated killing." After the media attack in this instance, the Police responded with witness accounts.

The examination up to now has NOT been transparent

Yep, Police put words into all those witnesses mouths... Both sides have aired their view.

and fair since the Police themselves investigate the Police and therefore it is inconceivable that there is no bias in such investigations.

You've never seen the resources that go into Police investigating their own. Makes me think it is worth turning into a crim...

The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.

That, is a fair call... but again, this guy was shot for rushing at the cop who had been called to do something, then having a crack with a hammer... I'm getting dizzy......

As I continued to say, it's about choices. The Police seem to reach far too readily for the gun. Human nature tells us that if you give someone a new toy, they will always want to use it (Whether they say so or not).

Simple bollocks. Guns are not toys. I sure as hell never want to use one, but if the choice is him or me, he loses every time.

That's also the argument against tasers: rather than reduce violent behaviour and resentment against police, it may actually increase these.

May be... but this one at least would still be alive now, resenting the Police, if he wishes...

Add to that the 'right' Police give themselves to shoot to kill. My brother is an ex soldier and he's a crack shot with many years of training and experience with a weapon. I have no doubt that he is more skilled than 95%+ of all NZ Police in the use of firearms. However, if he drew a gun and killed an 'attacker' like the recent hammer weilding guy, the NZ Police would most likeley charge him immediately with murder, manslaughter and/or firearms offences as they have done on the recent past.

Can't argue that, and that annoys me too... I would be saying good on him...

Frankly, the less well trained Police with access to guns scares me and points to an Amerikan style police service where they see themselves as victims or above the law.

Wrong there too... American cops have access to an arms range whenever they like. NOt above the law, hence the homicide investigation.

The arguments presented by the police here and by their supporters all basically said the guy deserved to die.

Not just supporters... witnesses too...

They did not wait for an independent inquiry (perhaps because they already know that the Police will always protect their own).

As above... media attacked, Police responded...

We KNOW the Police are not completely honest in every case and we have a number of very famous cases to point to in that regard: Arthur Allen Thomas and the recent sex cases for instance.

Soooooo last century... 4 cops in the last 30 years... O.K......

There was no attempt amongst them to even try and think of a better way to handle such a situation than drawing a gun and shooting it 4 times in a lethal manner.

I tried to offer some suggestions and was immediately attacked by the dogs of war.

No attack here... just pointed out your very flawed argument...

Unlike some people, I'm not so easily intimidated and I am more than happy to fight back. The pm's I received in private support that and supported my arguments.

Same here... we could compare notes....

I am not attacking the cop specifically here, I am attacking police training and culture. I find it abhorrent and the disdain cops have for the views of their employers (taxpayers) disgusts me. I don't want to live in Amerika and I don't want most of that culture imported into New Zealand; I really believe we are better than that.

Fair call, but that is not what you have said, til now really... As for Amerika, take a look at the street gang scene. It is here, but it certainly is not here in a Police sense... I too don't want that to occur...

If these two are onlone in work hours, how many more are and if, like most businesses, such online time was banned in work hours, how much more could we get out of our Police force for the same money?

The cops here have as much right to post as I do. I'm on holiday however and I don't post from work. Next week my holiday is over and I'll be unable to post much here. I hope others are as disgusted as I am and take up the baton.

Read my posts... I am on leave. After the porngate saga, we can not use the computor for anything like this KB thingee. I don't post from work either. The weather is crappy and can't do much, so here I am...

[Dilligaf]

The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.

Can I just address this... You speak of choices. Okay, then why are you not addressing the choice that the driver has in initially deciding to pull over or do a runner? I absolutely despise the idea that police should what? Look the other way? Let people who endangering themselves and others run amok?
You suggest that all that would happen if cops did not chase and "escalate the situation" that all would happen is the loss of licence (how that follows if they haven't actually caught the driver I don't know but...) but do you really think that if the message that young drivers get that if they run from the cops, that they will get off scot free, that will not in fact be the escalating factor here?
I would have thought that the idea that if they do a runner, then they will be really pushing the boundaries and possibly wiping out with possible death versus hit 130km / hour and the cops will call off the pursuit. Hmmm decisions decisions.....
And you know III, I never did a merry dance over the guy in CHCH being killed - although I certainly did not weep. Again, you speak of choices, all I can say is that his choice when faces with a person with a gun aimed at him was to do what the man with the gun wanted. I would actually prefer that the pendulum not swing back completely the way of facism (or whatever you want to call it) but ffs, I want our justice system to stop handing out slaps with wet bus tickets and administer proper justice.
It's not a matter of the man "deserving" to die - he made his choice to not retreat when faced with the possibility of being shot.

[Toaster]

Read my posts...

They don't want to read ya posts mate, they just want to bleat on in their little armchair-critics world oblivious to what it is really like in the real world with police making split-second decisions under huge pressure. But hey, who are we to comment huh just because we have actually been there and done that?! :Police:

[Skyryder]

They don't want to read ya posts mate, they just want to bleat on in their little armchair-critics world oblivious to what it is really like in the real world with police making split-second decisions under huge pressure.

Yea like what'll it be today?? KFC or Subway. :doh:


Skyyrder

[peasea]

They don't want to read ya posts mate, they just want to bleat on in their little armchair-critics world oblivious to what it is really like in the real world with police making split-second decisions under huge pressure. But hey, who are we to comment huh just because we have actually been there and done that?! :Police:

No, I want to read them. Please continue.

[pritch]

OK, here we go again (and yes, it IS getting circular).

"Getting"???

[idleidolidyll]

(my original post in blue, cops reply in white, response to cop in orange):

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/images/bgold/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1232776#post1232776)

I came here when this thread was already old. What I saw was a couple of cops and what I'd call their sycophants trying to sell the police propaganda BEFORE any investigation had revealed anything let alone an independent investigation (something we'll never see in this case).

And you weren't???

Indeed I was: in RESPONSE to you and your mates biased bullshit.

The callous discard displayed for human life by those arguments disgusted me and I determined to provide the polar opposite argument in order to engender rational debate rather than cronyism, sycophantic garbage and PR Spin.

Your callous disregard for the cops life disgusted me...

I never showed ANY disregard fore the cops life. I said he failed to consider other options because of poor training, police mentality etc. Your fallacy of trying to put words in my mouth is childish.

I expected to be attacked with lots of ad hominem and i was not disappointed.

Who commenced what, with the cuntstable call?

I didn't COMMENCE, I RESPONDED with that one after you and your mob decided to try and label me a criminal because I opposed your point of view. More dumb fallacy.

I also expected a lot of junk debate and again, I was not wrong.
The first point to note is that the Police are supposed to serve the people of New Zealand,

We do...

sure, and sometimes you serve yourselves without regard for public opinion. that's the point of THIS debate.

not serve the Police. As a citizen of this country, my opinion is not only valid, it is important and every bit as worthy as any argument offered by my detractors. As servants of the people the Police must be bound by the moral restraints we, their employers, demand and be held to totally fair and transparent examination if their actions seem extreme.

The media attacked first... they did the same at Waitara and boy, were lessons learned there... they said nothing then and look what happened, even the PM said "it may have been a racially motivated killing." After the media attack in this instance, the Police responded with witness accounts.

boo hoo! The media is to be congratulated for raising public awaremess to other sides of the story. As for witnesses, other witnesses suggest the opposite and instead of trying to offer rational debate, you attempt to vilify the opposing witnesses as you and yours attempted to vilify me.

The examination up to now has NOT been transparent

Yep, Police put words into all those witnesses mouths... Both sides have aired their view.

Yawn. Spin is not just for simplistic minds and it can be quite sophisticated. The Police have NOT been a transparent organisation for a very long time.

and fair since the Police themselves investigate the Police and therefore it is inconceivable that there is no bias in such investigations.

You've never seen the resources that go into Police investigating their own. Makes me think it is worth turning into a crim...

Irrelevant and hearsay, an appeal to authority and another fallacy.. When any organisation investigates itself there is the potential and probability for abuse of the system. Justice must always be SEEN to be done and that has often not been the case with the PCA.

The next point to make is that I believe the Police are acting badly in these cases due to bad training or resourcing or Police culture. The argument I was faced with here was not one that gave any credence to anything other than the usual Police whitewash of their own and as such it deserved to be exposed. This is the case whether it is a car chase ending in 2-4 youths wrapped around a power pole and their families mourning the loss of their young lives or a man/woman who has gone off the rails and is destroying property. The crime they were initially committing did not deserve the death penalty and we must ask if they would be dead now had the police made different choices about how to handle the situation: backing off and taking numbers, calling for help etc. That suggests that had the police not exasperated the situation, nobody at all would be dead and instead, a few people would be in jail or some youths would have lost their car and licence.

That, is a fair call... but again, this guy was shot for rushing at the cop who had been called to do something, then having a crack with a hammer... I'm getting dizzy......

And if the cop had been trained better to not provoke the situation further or back off when danger threatened and call for assistance or select some other avenue that lethal force, perhaps a person would still be alive today: that is the whole point. As for the supposed attack, again, that is subject to the non transparent investigations of the PCA and you are merely leaping to conclusions based on the closing of the ranks.

continues on next post due to KB limits

[idleidolidyll]

As I continued to say, it's about choices. The Police seem to reach far too readily for the gun. Human nature tells us that if you give someone a new toy, they will always want to use it (Whether they say so or not).

Simple bollocks. Guns are not toys. I sure as hell never want to use one, but if the choice is him or me, he loses every time.

No, they are not toys but human nature indicates that when given something, people will have a desire to use it. Again you makie a conclusion based on opinion and present it as fact: fallacy.

That's also the argument against tasers: rather than reduce violent behaviour and resentment against police, it may actually increase these.

May be... but this one at least would still be alive now, resenting the Police, if he wishes...

Yes, I would have preferred he had been tasered but I don't particularly want them here either because once they have them, I am sure cops will find reasons to use them unnecessarily.

Add to that the 'right' Police give themselves to shoot to kill. My brother is an ex soldier and he's a crack shot with many years of training and experience with a weapon. I have no doubt that he is more skilled than 95%+ of all NZ Police in the use of firearms. However, if he drew a gun and killed an 'attacker' like the recent hammer weilding guy, the NZ Police would most likeley charge him immediately with murder, manslaughter and/or firearms offences as they have done on the recent past.

Can't argue that, and that annoys me too... I would be saying good on him...

The only thing wrong with that is that the cop should be charged with something automatically just as a civilian would be. One law for everyone.

Frankly, the less well trained Police with access to guns scares me and points to an Amerikan style police service where they see themselves as victims or above the law.

Wrong there too... American cops have access to an arms range whenever they like. NOt above the law, hence the homicide investigation.

Nope, my obseravtions suggest to me that Yank cops DO think they are above the law and that they have the very mentality that I bemoan in NZ cops on this thread: the inability to make a non lethal choice in certain situations like this or car chases.

The arguments presented by the police here and by their supporters all basically said the guy deserved to die.

Not just supporters... witnesses too...

And other witnesses say otherwise but you ignored that completely except to try and vilify them when I raised the point.

They did not wait for an independent inquiry (perhaps because they already know that the Police will always protect their own).

As above... media attacked, Police responded...

....with the usual whitewash. yes, i know.

We KNOW the Police are not completely honest in every case and we have a number of very famous cases to point to in that regard: Arthur Allen Thomas and the recent sex cases for instance.

Soooooo last century... 4 cops in the last 30 years... O.K......

Sure, we still suffer under police investigating police. If we had traditionally had an independent organisation investigating the police perhaps we may have known of many many more. Sadly we never have and cops have always been able to sweep it under the carpet or produce the spin they wanted by controlling the very process.

There was no attempt amongst them to even try and think of a better way to handle such a situation than drawing a gun and shooting it 4 times in a lethal manner.

I tried to offer some suggestions and was immediately attacked by the dogs of war.

No attack here... just pointed out your very flawed argument...

Nope, you merely attacked and didn't offer any rational debate on the point raised.


Unlike some people, I'm not so easily intimidated and I am more than happy to fight back. The pm's I received in private support that and supported my arguments.

Same here... we could compare notes....

Indeed and THAT indicates that it is important not to let your one sided opinions hold absolute sway here.

I am not attacking the cop specifically here, I am attacking police training and culture. I find it abhorrent and the disdain cops have for the views of their employers (taxpayers) disgusts me. I don't want to live in Amerika and I don't want most of that culture imported into New Zealand; I really believe we are better than that.

Fair call, but that is not what you have said, til now really... As for Amerika, take a look at the street gang scene. It is here, but it certainly is not here in a Police sense... I too don't want that to occur...

Yes it has been what I've said. You were merely too fixated on other parts of my posts to notice.

If these two are online in work hours, how many more are and if, like most businesses, such online time was banned in work hours, how much more could we get out of our Police force for the same money?

The cops here have as much right to post as I do. I'm on holiday however and I don't post from work. Next week my holiday is over and I'll be unable to post much here. I hope others are as disgusted as I am and take up the baton.
Read my posts... I am on leave. After the porngate saga, we can not use the computor for anything like this KB thingee. I don't post from work either. The weather is crappy and can't do much, so here I am...

Good, that's what I expect from taxpayer funded orgs. Is scumdog also on holiday?

[idleidolidyll]

Now, I understand that you want to get the last word in.

no problem, the argument is circular and I've clearly said my bit. I'm back at work next week and will spend much less time here. Hopefully some of the many who have encouraged me will take up the baton and not allow such blatant one sided opinions to get away without challenge.

[scumdog]

This place will be like, so BORING next week.

An endless stream of logic, fact and sense it will be.....no "what ifs", "he should haves" "they would have been better to" "I know"......


But there will be opinions allowed from both sides I dare say.

[idleidolidyll]

as i said on another thread: everybody lies and everybody deceives themselves

a perfect example................

[Clockwork]

I'd like to add my support to idle's post #610 (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1232776&postcount=610) I'm not here to condemn the Cop so much as the system. I recently read this opinion piece by John Minto (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4221666a1861.html), I never have agreed with much he has said but here I felt he had some good points.

Last night I watched one of those American Police docos where Cops are followed around by a camera, in one incident I saw 2 Cops draw guns on an armed intruder and although shots were fired (and not all of the action was caught on camera), ultimately the cops (eventually 5 of them) did manage to dis-arm and wrestle a pretty determined maniac into submission. The following story, two cops are attempting to reason with some ranting woman in a car, one cop on each side of her car, she pulls a knife and lunges for the one on the drivers side, he didn't draw is gun, he ran away, she charged after him and the Cop from the other side of the car chases her and grounds her, again he didn't draw his gun although he knew exactly what was going down.

There have been many other stories of Police in New Zealand dis-arming violent armed (not guns) offenders where no guns have been available to them. Scary shit but they seem to be able to do it quite often.

In the end what troubles me most about this whole incident is how a member of our supposedly unarmed Police turned up to a domestic incident carrying a gun, and would he have handled the matter differently if he hadn't had the gun.

I'm also troubled by the line that we don't pay Cops enough to come home in a box. Surely we pay them better than our soldiers but don't we/they accept that they may well come home in a box?

Finally, the bitching about the roll of the media in this matter, they're simply reporting witness statements... sure they're looking for an angle but they are not inventing this stuff. Tell me this, if they are SO anti Police why do they ALL collude to keep the Officer's name a secret. Our courts have already declared that the public has a right to know this information but look at the shit storm being aimed at Truth for daring to break the embargo!

[Tank]

Basically, if you fel uncomfortable about someone's argument style and can't see their logic, there's a good chance they're using one of these fallacies.

Your referring to yourself as well right?

[idleidolidyll]

certainly

i'm not gonna lie to you and say i'm a saint. my principle sin here is ad hominem and i make no bones about that. it's usually in retaliation but sometimes not.

if you're concerned, go to that website and identify my, or someone elses fallacies.

it'll make you better in debate/discussion

[idleidolidyll]

Clockwork:

I just read your link and I have to say first that my comments were completely indpendent and I had never read this prior to your post.
However, Minto's article echoes almost to the letter the sentiments I have offered here and I find myself in admiration of him again.

No doubt some ex red brigader will want to kick him in the teeth again for attacking the party line (cop) but he makes a very compelling case.

[Edbear]

I have been following this thread pretty much all the way through, and with all the angst and argy-bargy going on, one issue seems to have been studiously avoided.

The Police were called to a domestic disturbance, a hyped-up angry man smashing things up with a hammer.

Question 1. "What are the Police going to think, and how are they going to respond? ie: What is the proceedure?"

Question 2. "When faced with such a situation as this, do the Police have the responsibility to attempt to stop the offender smashing things with a hammer, or are they supposed to stand back and let him continue?"

Question 3. "If the Police have the responsibility to attempt to stop him, how do they go about it - do they respond to the call unarmed, or do they come ready for serious trouble?"

Question 4. "How, likely, did the Cop address the offender in the first instance -what would he have said?"

Question 5. "Was it the Cop who escalated the situation or was it the offender - was the Cop attempting to calm the man down and get him to surrender the weapon?"

Question 5. "Who in their right mind attacks a Policeman armed with a pistol when you only have a hammer?"

I believe the situation is regrettable in that it resulted in the death of a man who, from all reports was acting somewhat out of character, but so many people would rather blame anyone or anything else, other than the one breaking the law. Even in his hyped up state, he would have understood the risk he was taking. He knew what he was doing was wrong, so I will be interested to find out why he was so angry and reckless.

Some commit suicide, some brood, some attack. Ultimately we must be responsible for our actions and if we are reckless and suffer the consequences, we can really only blame ourselves.

[scumdog]

No doubt some ex red brigader will want to kick him in the teeth again for attacking the party line (cop) but he makes a very compelling case.


Mintos a twat.

Now where do I pick up my subscription to the 'party line', I feel I have missed out on it.

[idleidolidyll]

Mintos a twat.

Now where do I pick up my subscription to the 'party line', I feel I have missed out on it.

oh i think you're well and truly indoctrinated......

[davereid]

My brother-in-law is a cop.

We were having a beer and discussing the miserable state of the publics view of the police.

He asked me "if you saw me getting a hiding would you help ?"

I said "Nah, it would be to easy for you to identify me"

[puddy]

So you want to live in a fascist police state where they serve themselves and don't care about people. A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.
Tell ya what, why don't you fuck off and live your dream in Amerikkka. I for one prefer a place where people are treated with humanity and the police serve the people not politicians and companies.

The cynical whine by police that this is a case for tasers is sickening. It's actually a case for better training for police and the REMOVAL of dangerous weapons from trigger happy nutcases.
Don't tell me there was no other choice; that's bullshit. Back off and let the guy smash up some more property; insurance will cover the damage. In the meantime work on some non lethal strategies. Get some gun fired deer/goat nets etc. Only trigger happy wankers would kill a person without considering other means to bring him under control. Fuck the police, they don't have my respect and given their fascism, they don't deserve it either.

It's time we dumper the Police Complaints Authority and introduced a truly impartial investigation service to stop these police abuses of power.

Sounds fair. Tell ya what, I'll go back to my Nazi heritage and you go find that guy Potter and start another Hippy commune thingy. If ya don't get any takers, you can always interfere with each other!

[puddy]

So you want to live in a fascist police state where they serve themselves and don't care about people. A place where speeding is punishable by death and where vandalism is also a death sentence.
Tell ya what, why don't you fuck off and live your dream in Amerikkka. I for one prefer a place where people are treated with humanity and the police serve the people not politicians and companies.

The cynical whine by police that this is a case for tasers is sickening. It's actually a case for better training for police and the REMOVAL of dangerous weapons from trigger happy nutcases.
Don't tell me there was no other choice; that's bullshit. Back off and let the guy smash up some more property; insurance will cover the damage. In the meantime work on some non lethal strategies. Get some gun fired deer/goat nets etc. Only trigger happy wankers would kill a person without considering other means to bring him under control. Fuck the police, they don't have my respect and given their fascism, they don't deserve it either.

It's time we dumper the Police Complaints Authority and introduced a truly impartial investigation service to stop these police abuses of power.

Like I said!.......soft-cock bleeding heart liberals......

[puddy]

Hey Scumdog, give Idol... his girlfriend back and he won't be so anti-Police!

[idleidolidyll]

Like I said!.......soft-cock bleeding heart liberals......

until they shoot you or yours of course and then you'll be the whining bitch.

callous sociopaths like you are what gets halfwit megalomaniacs like Bush elected

[scumdog]

Like I said!.......soft-cock bleeding heart liberals......

I can relate to that, the place is full of soft-cock bleeding heart liberal 'take no personal reponsibilty' meddling, interfering dreamers....

[Manxman]

...methinks idleidolidyll debates far too much - mass debate-ing is not a good thing, allegedly (in fact, did anyone hear that there's a law being proposed to ban it during the next term of parliament?)

Some people need to get away from the theoretical stuff and join the rest of us, the majority, in-the-real-world.

Join the cops and see the increasing amount of sh*t they have to put up with (no, really). Or, ask to become one of the roving reporters that travel around with cameras in the back of cop cars - and I wouldn't mind betting that you will change your mind in under a month. Go for it, walk your talk...

No fascist sycophants here bud, just people trying to live a normal life without having to suffer tails wagging dogs and bleeding hearts every which way we turn...

Or become an MP, your debating skills will be far better employed there. Parliament is full of w**kers (not that idlethingy is one, of course...), plus you'll get to see how politics works for real, ie you get chewed up and spat out, not to mention the desperate desire for power, absolute power corrupting absolutely, lying through teeth, climbing over the bodies of unfortunate colleagues who stood by their principles, oh and many, many, many (did I say many?) REAL sycophants.

Ad Homo over\

[Clockwork]

So, Police have a tough job, therefore they should be free to do it however they see fit?

Remember, this is an organisation that was grooming Clint Rickards for the top job. ...then again, I suspect a few of you guys wouldn't have a problem with that either.

Police States, from what I understand people who've lived in one don't generally recommend them.

[idleidolidyll]

...methinks idleidolidyll debates far too much -

oh sure, much better to shut the fuck up and let them screw you over eh?!

ROTFLMFAO!!

[idleidolidyll]

I can relate to that, the place is full of soft-cock bleeding heart liberal 'take no personal reponsibilty' meddling, interfering dreamers....

yawn, your arguments are so weak minded i won't even bother except to laugh: ROTFLMFAO!

[scumdog]

oh sure, much better to shut the fuck up and let them screw you over eh?!

ROTFLMFAO!!

Ah, I can see how non-stop bleating on KB has really stopped you from being screwed over.

Sorry.

:zzzz:

[scumdog]

yawn, your arguments are so weak minded i won't even bother except to laugh: ROTFLMFAO!

I have an 'argument'???

Here's me thinking it was just an opinion.......

Each to their own.

[Drew]

I have an 'argument'???

Here's me thinking it was just an opinion.......

Each to their own.

An opinion, placed into a conversation with an oposing opinion, by definition is an argument, it does not however have to be argumentative.

Just thought I'd clarify, I'm good like that:first:

[Manxman]

oh sure, much better to shut the fuck up and let them screw you over eh?!

ROTFLMFAO!!

No, just better to take some mad fu*cker out before he takes you out...

Like many have said, if you don't put yourself in that position then you have nothing to worry about.

[Hitcher]

An opinion, placed into a conversation with an oposing opinion, by definition is an argument, it does not however have to be argumentative.

No it doesn't...

[riffer]

I didn't pay five quid for that... :pinch:

[Patrick]

And you weren't???

Indeed I was: in RESPONSE to you and your mates biased bullshit.

Not mine, just the bull shit from the INDEPENDANT eye witnesses.

I never showed ANY disregard fore the cops life. I said he failed to consider other options because of poor training, police mentality etc. Your fallacy of trying to put words in my mouth is childish.


Go over your comments again... the direction of your points was clear enough, I want my mummy.... where is my dumdum?

I expected to be attacked with lots of ad hominem and i was not disappointed.

Who commenced what, with the cuntstable call?

I didn't COMMENCE, I RESPONDED with that one after you and your mob decided to try and label me a criminal because I opposed your point of view. More dumb fallacy.

Nah... geez you're a baby... sticks and stones... You sounded like you were in love with the tattooed con neighbour, I thought you were "mates"...


I also expected a lot of junk debate and again, I was not wrong.
The first point to note is that the Police are supposed to serve the people of New Zealand,

We do...

sure, and sometimes you serve yourselves without regard for public opinion. that's the point of THIS debate.

No it isn't... it was about the cop living, or the dirtbag dying. I voted my choice.

boo hoo! The media is to be congratulated for raising public awaremess to other sides of the story. As for witnesses, other witnesses suggest the opposite and instead of trying to offer rational debate, you attempt to vilify the opposing witnesses as you and yours attempted to vilify me.

Funny how they find the only anti Police witness though ay?

Yep, Police put words into all those witnesses mouths... Both sides have aired their view.

Yawn. Spin is not just for simplistic minds and it can be quite sophisticated. The Police have NOT been a transparent organisation for a very long time.


I am not transparent because I eat donuts and am fat....

You've never seen the resources that go into Police investigating their own. Makes me think it is worth turning into a crim...

Irrelevant and hearsay, an appeal to authority and another fallacy.. When any organisation investigates itself there is the potential and probability for abuse of the system. Justice must always be SEEN to be done and that has often not been the case with the PCA.

You must have one of those Canturbury Rugby one eyed eye patches on, dontcha? Irrelevant and hearsay?????? Bwahahahahahahahahahaha...


And if the cop had been trained better to not provoke the situation further or back off when danger threatened and call for assistance or select some other avenue that lethal force, perhaps a person would still be alive today: that is the whole point. As for the supposed attack, again, that is subject to the non transparent investigations of the PCA and you are merely leaping to conclusions based on the closing of the ranks.

The cop was out of his car, doing his job, as expected, trying to stop the fella, as would be expected. The dude was shot next to the cop car, which means he came to the cop, not the other way around. Since you know all about the entire case, how could be back off then, call for backup, whatever, with a hammer wielding attacker advancing on him from a few metres away?


Simple bollocks. Guns are not toys. I sure as hell never want to use one, but if the choice is him or me, he loses every time.

No, they are not toys but human nature indicates that when given something, people will have a desire to use it. Again you makie a conclusion based on opinion and present it as fact: fallacy.


It is a fact... if it is him or me, he loses... fact.

Yes, I would have preferred he had been tasered but I don't particularly want them here either because once they have them, I am sure cops will find reasons to use them unnecessarily.
[/I][/B]

You seen the paperwork involved if one is presented, let alone used????????

The only thing wrong with that is that the cop should be charged with something automatically just as a civilian would be. One law for everyone.

Exactly, one law for all, which is why the gun shop owner was not charged with shooting that sack.... self defence.

Not just supporters... witnesses too...

And other witnesses say otherwise but you ignored that completely except to try and vilify them when I raised the point.


But other witnesses say otherwise but YOU ignored that completely except to try and vilify me when I raised the point...

They did not wait for an independent inquiry (perhaps because they already know that the Police will always protect their own).

As above... media attacked, Police responded...

....with the usual whitewash. yes, i know.

The truth is a whitewash??????


I tried to offer some suggestions and was immediately attacked by the dogs of war.

[B][I]No attack here... just pointed out your very flawed argument...

Nope, you merely attacked and didn't offer any rational debate on the point raised.

so you can't read, or choose not to read... which is it? Take off those rose tinted glasses...


Unlike some people, I'm not so easily intimidated and I am more than happy to fight back. The pm's I received in private support that and supported my arguments.

Same here... we could compare notes....

Indeed and THAT indicates that it is important not to let your one sided opinions hold absolute sway here.


DITTO......... My arguments hold sway????????? Since when?????????? You have support, so do I. You have opinions, so do I. You have PMs and messages, so do I. Yo get any red bling?

Yes it has been what I've said. You were merely too fixated on other parts of my posts to notice.

You think I care???????? Pffftttttt........

Good, that's what I expect from taxpayer funded orgs. Is scumdog also on holiday?

He is always on holiday... he lives in the South Island....

And sorry about the confusing colour thingy.... too computor illiterate to sort that out...


Now, I understand that you want to get the last word in.



Thanks. The last word is "apple."


There have been many other stories of Police in New Zealand dis-arming violent armed (not guns) offenders where no guns have been available to them. Scary shit but they seem to be able to do it quite often.

In the end what troubles me most about this whole incident is how a member of our supposedly unarmed Police turned up to a domestic incident carrying a gun, and would he have handled the matter differently if he hadn't had the gun.

I'm also troubled by the line that we don't pay Cops enough to come home in a box. Surely we pay them better than our soldiers but don't we/they accept that they may well come home in a box?

Finally, the bitching about the roll of the media in this matter, they're simply reporting witness statements... sure they're looking for an angle but they are not inventing this stuff. Tell me this, if they are SO anti Police why do they ALL collude to keep the Officer's name a secret. Our courts have already declared that the public has a right to know this information but look at the shit storm being aimed at Truth for daring to break the embargo!

Many stories of cops disarming armed (firearms) offenders too while unarmed.

Handling the hammer man if unarmed might have meant he handled it differently alright.... he could have gone to the morgue in a box.

Soldiers V Cops pay... soldiers get lodgings and all meals. We dont...

As for the media, it never ceases to amaze just how they (TV3 in particular)find the one or two anti Police brigade (sometimes even drunk) but choose to ignore the sober independant eye witnesses in the interim, then twist it around later themselves to suit.....

Been fun, but the last word is still "apple." Or should it be "donut?????"

[Curious_AJ]

THE COPS ARE ON A RAMPAGE!!

[_Shrek_]

way i see it is if you were joe citizen you would been seen as a hero but because it's a cop hes an AH & could have found a better way :doh:

:Oi: wake up you weak kneed spinless bleeding heart liberals it's because we live in a pc society (that you & Helen created) the crim has all the rights because of their back ground & all that :bs:

:Pokey: so why don't you start backing the cops & pushing for parents to get their rights back & holding the crims resposible for their actions :argh:

[idb]

THE COPS ARE ON A RAMPAGE!!

Yeah, they're revolting

[sAsLEX]

Soldiers V Cops pay... soldiers get lodgings and all meals. We dont...


Care to elaborate on this? As I think you will find you are wrong.

Soldiers get cheap lodgings and food, or are you talking about under training?

[idleidolidyll]

Extremely interesting to hear Ross Meurant attacking the police last week.

For those who don't know him, Meurant is the ex boss of the Red Squad, New Zealand's notorious squad started in reaction to protests in the 1981 Sprongbox Rugby Tour. He has always been very right wing and pro police.

Recently though, Meurant has had an epiphany. He now says he finally realises just how sucked in he was by Police 'group think' and how dangerous that is to New Zealand and it's people.

Essentially Meurant agrees now that the Police ARE a law unto themselves and see themselves as answerable to no-one, not the government and not the voters and citizens of this country. He particularly attacks the Police Complaints Authority and the Police Union: both of which do fuck all to hold the Police accountable or to the expectations of the people of NZ. Instead, both these institutions merely whitewash police actions and hamper honest attempts to clean up damaging police psyche.

For an ex insider of the extreme right to speak out so clearly against the Police in such a manner is a brave and laudable action and although he remains right wing; I applaud Ross Meurant for having the balls to say what we have known for a long time in the face of Police bullshit.

[Hitcher]

Ross Meurant is a head case. Anybody who has followed his career since his departure from the Police would have difficulty finding otherwise. His "exploits" as a Rodney District Councillor are legend. Anything he says should be taken with a liberal application of MSG.

[Indoo]

Recently though, Meurant has had an epiphany. He now says he finally realises just how sucked in he was by Police 'group think' and how dangerous that is to New Zealand and it's people.


Yeh and I'm sure that epiphany has nothing to do with his arrest and conviction not to long ago for impersonating a cop and assault now does it?

[scumdog]

Extremely interesting to hear Ross Meurant attacking the police last week.

Recently though, Meurant has had an epiphany. He now says he finally realises just how sucked in he was by Police 'group think' and how dangerous that is to New Zealand and it's people.

Essentially Meurant agrees now that the Police ARE a law unto themselves and see themselves as answerable to no-one, not the government and not the voters and citizens of this country. He particularly attacks the Police Complaints Authority and the Police Union: both of which do fuck all to hold the Police accountable or to the expectations of the people of NZ. Instead, both these institutions merely whitewash police actions and hamper honest attempts to clean up damaging police psyche..

Ahh, another disaffected ex-employee with not axe to grind? hmmm.

Police 'group think' and 'dangerous to the people" 'hamper honest attemps to clean up damaging police psyche'? - Go Chairman Mao!!

A 'law unto themselves' - describe??

But nice troll anyway - I'm sure SOMEBODY will leap on the bandwagon on this.

[I Smell Bacon]

Ross Meurant is a head case. Anybody who has followed his career since his departure from the Police would have difficulty finding otherwise. His "exploits" as a Rodney District Councillor are legend. Anything he says should be taken with a liberal application of MSG.

Heard him briefly on radio live this afternoon talking to JT, it was pathetic and completely misleading.

[davereid]

Yeah, the mans a plonker.

[idleidolidyll]

Ross Meurant is a head case. Anybody who has followed his career since his departure from the Police would have difficulty finding otherwise. His "exploits" as a Rodney District Councillor are legend. Anything he says should be taken with a liberal application of MSG.

Yes, right wingers are often headcases but both you and I know that hearsay and appeals to authority, especially our own opinions, are fallacy.

What is pertinent is that Meurant recognised and identified the group think that exists in the police and outed it last week.

[idleidolidyll]

Ahh, another disaffected ex-employee with not axe to grind? hmmm.

Police 'group think' and 'dangerous to the people" 'hamper honest attemps to clean up damaging police psyche'? - Go Chairman Mao!!

A 'law unto themselves' - describe??

But nice troll anyway - I'm sure SOMEBODY will leap on the bandwagon on this.

from a group think insider...............yyaawwnnnn!!!!

hilarious!

[idleidolidyll]

Yeh and I'm sure that epiphany has nothing to do with his arrest and conviction not to long ago for impersonating a cop and assault now does it?

so he found out the hard way just what a bunch of arseholes cops can be; about time they all discovered this fact and saw the light outside their cosy little clique where all thinking is the same and unpolluted with reality or the expectations of the citizens of the country..................

[idleidolidyll]

Heard him briefly on radio live this afternoon talking to JT, it was pathetic and completely misleading.

be specific, blanket dissing is childs play

[Patrick]

Care to elaborate on this? As I think you will find you are wrong.

Soldiers get cheap lodgings and food, or are you talking about under training?

I worked at Waiouru recently... might be very cheap food and lodgings, including housing... we don't get that, is all... gotta buy all my groceries and pay the mortgage.


Extremely interesting to hear Ross Meurant attacking the police last week..... I applaud Ross Meurant for having the balls to say what we have known for a long time in the face of Police bullshit.

Like his maiden speech in Parliament back in 1987??? "Maori radicals training in the bush" he said......... He is pissed off that he was ignored all this time.


Yeh and I'm sure that epiphany has nothing to do with his arrest and conviction not to long ago for impersonating a cop and assault now does it?

THAT might have something to do with the above as well.... pissed off being locked up, like a common sack... although I believe he was actually summonsed to court.


Yes, right wingers are often headcases but both me and I know that my own opinions, are fallacy.

Well, there ya go....

[scumdog]

so he found out the hard way just what a bunch of arseholes cops can be; about time they all discovered this fact and saw the light outside their cosy little clique where all thinking is the same and unpolluted with reality or the expectations of the citizens of the country..................


And happy to live like that as long as the tax-payer keeps paying me:clap:


- and I can go on KB rides from time to time.:whistle:

[_Shrek_]

Extremely interesting to hear Ross Meurant attacking the police last week.

For those who don't know him, Meurant is the ex boss of the Red Squad, New Zealand's notorious squad started in reaction to protests in the 1981 Sprongbox Rugby Tour. He has always been very right wing and pro police.

Recently though, Meurant has had an epiphany. He now says he finally realises just how sucked in he was by Police 'group think' and how dangerous that is to New Zealand and it's people.

Essentially Meurant agrees now that the Police ARE a law unto themselves and see themselves as answerable to no-one, not the government and not the voters and citizens of this country. He particularly attacks the Police Complaints Authority and the Police Union: both of which do fuck all to hold the Police accountable or to the expectations of the people of NZ. Instead, both these institutions merely whitewash police actions and hamper honest attempts to clean up damaging police psyche.

For an ex insider of the extreme right to speak out so clearly against the Police in such a manner is a brave and laudable action and although he remains right wing; I applaud Ross Meurant for having the balls to say what we have known for a long time in the face of Police bullshit.

well Idleidolidyll you must be a mate of Meurants good for you coz he could use one, or don't know shit about him

he has been a red neck for as long as i have known him, you have to wonder if he left the police or was asked to back in the 80's & he has always had an axe to grind where the cops are concerned

i remember he used to talk about these bush training camps in the early 90's but as usual the dicks at the top had no ears, & the GOVT don't want to know

but that don't give Meurant the right to slag off at the cops coz he got caught doing somthing he shouldn't be

i for one have spent a part of my past on the wrong side & yes there are some real AH in the police force & on the bench in the courts judging us when they should be standing in the dock but they are trying to clean it up

& i would rather have the cops we have now than a bunch of trigger happy gangs running around the place doing what they feel is right as this present govt condons by not putting them behind bars or making them pay for what they did

[sAsLEX]

I worked at Waiouru recently... might be very cheap food and lodgings, including housing... we don't get that, is all... gotta buy all my groceries and pay the mortgage.



SO do I.

Yes housing is cheap for Service personnel, yes eating at the mess is cheap, and yes they get generally crappy wages as well and can work huge hours in conditions that don't bear asking about... well the Army anyways I like my air conditioning and three square meals a day!

The thing is would you want to live in Wiberia?

[TLMAN]

SO do I.

Yes housing is cheap for Service personnel, yes eating at the mess is cheap, and yes they get generally crappy wages as well and can work huge hours in conditions that don't bear asking about... well the Army anyways I like my air conditioning and three square meals a day!

The thing is would you want to live in Wiberia?


Once you start working your way up the ranks the NZ Army pays well. When you go overseas to all those shitty places you get extra pay depending on where you go.
Where the hell is Wiberia? It sounds :cold:

[sAsLEX]

Once you start working your way up the ranks the NZ Army pays well. When you go overseas to all those shitty places you get extra pay depending on where you go.
Where the hell is Wiberia? It sounds :cold:

Middle of the North Island.


And in all honesty my pay started low and will not grow as quickly as friends in the civilian market.

[TLMAN]

Middle of the North Island.


And in all honesty my pay started low and will not grow as quickly as friends in the civilian market.

Oh cool, youre in the Army?

Im in the NZ SAS (saturdays and sundays) or TF :2thumbsup

[sAsLEX]

Oh cool, youre in the Army?

Im in the NZ SAS (saturdays and sundays) or TF :2thumbsup


I like my air conditioning, comfortable pit and three square meals a day!

That should answer the question.

[I Smell Bacon]

be specific, blanket dissing is childs play

No. This thread is mostly shit and you're one of the biggest producers. I can't be bothered wasting my time on people like you.

Que next response.......... "abuse is a sign of a weak argument blah blah wank wank bullshit bullshit bullshit", typical Internet crap.

[Patrick]

No. This thread is mostly shit and you're one of the biggest producers. I can't be bothered wasting my time on people like you.

Que next response.......... "abuse is a sign of a weak argument blah blah wank wank bullshit bullshit bullshit", typical Internet crap.

Don't worry Bacon, he is a confused wee sort... one moment he doesn't like red necks, next he is supporting Meurant. Go figure.

I knew Meurant. I bet Idlebrain doesn't. I worked with him for a few years and even played rugby against him. The ideal man for the Red Squad Leader. Seen him take two guys down at two different incidents at gun point, calm cool and collected. Both were armed.... Very calm and collected and ideal in a tight spot.

If he asked someone any question and they didn't answer, (as they don't have to you know), he would just say "He is drunk, arrest him Constable." Even though the person was clearly sober, it was an order, not a request.

Still a redneck.... Idles new mate is..... (In my best "Yoda" voice...)

[idleidolidyll]

man you guys are slow!

who ever said meurant was my mate? not me.

what i said was that it was extremely interesting that a fucking redneck and a cop insider would come out and bash the cops for just the stuff i've been suggesting here.

that you have nothing to offer in repudiation except to attack him and/or me personally just confirms what's been said.

and yes, lazy mindless bashing DOES mean your argument is crap and that even YOU know it's worthless.

[Hitcher]

and yes, lazy mindless bashing DOES mean your argument is crap and that even YOU know it's worthless.

Monsieur Le Pot, veuillez répondre à Monsieur Bouilloire. Vous êtes noir aussi.

[I Smell Bacon]

what i said was that it was extremely interesting that a fucking redneck and a cop insider would come out and bash the cops for just the stuff i've been suggesting here.

There's nothing interesting or remarkable about it at all when you look at the guys history.

Senior police officer and Minto bashing storm trooper in the 80's.
Left under a cloud.
Became a National party MP.
Pissed off Bolger due to his dissident nature.
Formed his own political party, (The right of centre party or something similar), he obviously wanted to be the country's white Winston.
Got nowhere with that venture.
Got elected to the Rodney District Council.
Shortly afterwards the RDC was disbanded by the government of the day due to serious dysfunction.
Meurant was widely blamed for the dysfunction due to his abrasive personality and general poor attitude.
Ran for Mayor of RDC but got laughed out of the race due to massive public disapproval of his destruction of the former council.
Got convicted for impersonating a cop.

He has no credibility.

[idleidolidyll]

Monsieur Le Pot, veuillez répondre à Monsieur Bouilloire. Vous êtes noir aussi.

亲吻我长毛的臀部 如果您没有球使用国家的语言, 我没有对您的尊敬

[idleidolidyll]

There's nothing interesting or remarkable about it at all when you look at the guys history.



attacking the person instead of what was said is a common fallacy used by those who have run out of logical ammunition

meurant was an insider; he outed the group think of the police and made excellent points

care to debate what was said instead of attacking the man?

[I Smell Bacon]

亲吻我长毛的臀部 如果您没有球使用国家的语言, 我没有对您的尊敬

Something about the pot calling the kettle black.

[I Smell Bacon]

attacking the person instead of what was said is a common fallacy used by those who have run out of logical ammunition

You're very predictable.

[idleidolidyll]

Something about the pot calling the kettle black.

actually it says something like if the poster is not prepared to use the language of the country; i have absolutely no respect for them and will offer a similar post (as i always do)

[idleidolidyll]

You're very predictable.

and so are you and yours

your arguments are largely propaganda and when that fails you resort immediately to abuse and personal attack

my oft stated modus operandi is to reply in kind with knobs on

[I Smell Bacon]

You're full of yourself mate.

[idleidolidyll]

You're full of yourself mate.

personal abuse in place of intelligent debate?

hang on, i feel another yawn coming on........yawn!

got the balls and brains to debate what meurant said rather than attack the person or are you happy to continue with your fallacies?

[I Smell Bacon]

personal abuse in place of intelligent debate?

hang on, i feel another yawn coming on........yawn!

got the balls and brains to debate what meurant said rather than attack the person or are you happy to continue with your fallacies?

Refer No: 681.

I've got no reason or want to engage you in your fantasies.

Take it as a victory if you feel so inclined but from my side of the screen your BS just isn't a worthwhile use of my time.

[scumdog]

and so are you and yours

your arguments are largely propaganda and when that fails you resort immediately to abuse and personal attack

my oft stated modus operandi is to reply in kind with knobs on

Like we ferkin care.

A certain amount of my posts (you figure out WHICH ones) are just posted similarly as I poke a stick into a puddle with tadpoles in it.

I just want to see which one reacts the most.

Like I really care.


Say what you want - 'tis all entertainment (but won't change MY mind - I'm wayyy too much of a Harley riding, bourbon swilling narrow-minded red-necked bully-boy of the Govt to change now)

[Finn]

attacking the person instead of what was said is a common fallacy used by those who have run out of logical ammunition

I don't think the cops will ever run out of logical ammunition and that's one resource I don't mind paying taxes for. A $1 bullet provides NZ with a fantastic return on investment.

Scumsuckers must die.

[Patrick]

attacking the person instead of what was said is a common fallacy used by those who have run out of logical ammunition

meurant was an insider; he outed the group think of the police and made excellent points

care to debate what was said instead of attacking the man?

There is that fallacio word again... you like that a lot...

"Insider" from 20 years ago.... yeah..., OK then....

You win...

HEY!!! The last word was "donut!!!!"

[idb]

Obdurate









2345

[Hitcher]

Fellatio. Hamlet's boyfriend.

[Edbear]

A $1 bullet provides NZ with a fantastic return on investment.


Didn't Patrick say they were only 15c?

[idb]

Reintarnation

Coming back to life as a hillbilly.

[idleidolidyll]

There is that fallacio word again... you like that a lot...



No, actually I despise it.

the trouble is that it's about all most of you have got

[idleidolidyll]

I've got no reason or want to engage you in your fantasies.



you offer no argument, just an ad hominem attack on a reference supplied; you refuse to discuss his statements

it seems the fantasies are yours

[scumdog]

Obdurate

What about the obdures?, after all, I paid for all the ones I ate didn't I??

[idleidolidyll]

I don't think the cops will ever run out of logical ammunition and that's one resource I don't mind paying taxes for. A $1 bullet provides NZ with a fantastic return on investment.

Scumsuckers must die.

i agree

they should point it at you and do NZ a huge favour

[scumdog]

No, actually I despise it.

the trouble is that it's about all most of you have got


You take that back - I've got wayyy more than the b.j ya know, why just this morning......

[scumdog]

i agree

they should point it at you and do NZ a huge favour

Oooh, that wit is so cutting they could put a handle on it and call it a razor.... :zzzz:

[BIGBOSSMAN]

Idle charges from his Socialist cave, hell-bent on destroying the hapless Capitalists and rednecks...

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a77pycC78Q0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a77pycC78Q0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[I Smell Bacon]

you offer no argument, just an ad hominem attack on a reference supplied; you refuse to discuss his statements

it seems the fantasies are yours

Meurant isn't worth discussing, his opinions are meaningless, he has no credibility and neither do you.

[idleidolidyll]

Meurant isn't worth discussing, his opinions are meaningless, he has no credibility and neither do you.

blanket dismissal merely indicates that his arguments (which mirror those of most of your opposition) are far too effective for you to counter...........so you post another fallacy and think it's logical debate.

Meurants opinions are far more relevant and meaningful than most i've seen here from the one eyed defenders of police group think. Should we dismiss all their posts with a wave of our fallacy'd hands too?

[idleidolidyll]

Idle charges from his Socialist cave, hell-bent on destroying the hapless Capitalists and rednecks...

<object height="355" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a77pycC78Q0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="355" width="425"></object>

that's quite amusing but you have it back arseward old chap, the video you offer is more indicative of the unsophisticated and ill informed hearsay offered by my detractors. A video of my tactics would resemble something like this:

http://www.bofunk.com/video/1255/smart_weapon.html


..............a smart weapon.

[idb]

Vituperate

[Patrick]

blanket dismissal merely indicates that his arguments (which mirror those of most of your opposition) are far too effective for you to counter...........so you post another fallacy and think it's logical debate.

Meurants opinions are far more relevant and meaningful than most i've seen here from the one eyed defenders of police group think. Should we dismiss all their posts with a wave of our fallacy'd hands too?

Yep, take the word from someone who was a Policeman 20 years ago... times haven't changed in your world, it seems...... Funny that, I've seen plenty of change since he left... but hey, that must be a fallacy.:zzzz:

[I Smell Bacon]

............post #699.........

You're a broken record and about as interesting as floor polish. I'm not in the least bit interested in discussing anything with you, you come across as a total bone head, I wouldn't want to speak to you if I met you in person and I have no desire whatsoever in conversing with you via a keyboard.

[imdying]

I have no desire whatsoever in conversing with you via a keyboard.I suspect you may have to forgive him for thinking that was the point of posting here :argue:

[idb]

You're a broken record and about as interesting as floor polish. I'm not in the least bit interested in discussing anything with you, you come across as a total bone head, I wouldn't want to speak to you if I met you in person and I have no desire whatsoever in conversing with you via a keyboard.

Ummm...then stop typing buddy.
I can imagine you sitting there with your fingers in your ears and eyes screwed shut shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU...LALALALALALALALA!!!!!"

[Goblin]

Ummm...then stop typing buddy.
I can imagine you sitting there with your fingers in your ears and eyes screwed shut shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU...LALALALALALALALA!!!!!":laugh: Run outa rep....iou ok.

[idleidolidyll]

You're a broken record and about as interesting as floor polish. I'm not in the least bit interested in discussing anything with you, you come across as a total bone head, I wouldn't want to speak to you if I met you in person and I have no desire whatsoever in conversing with you via a keyboard.

yes, you bore me too but the hilarious thing is that despite what you say, here you are doing just that

however, unlike you as above, i'd welcome some infirmed logical debate

[I Smell Bacon]

i'd welcome some infirmed logical debate

It doesn't appear that informed logical debate exists here, (you're hardly objective).

[idleidolidyll]

It doesn't appear that informed logical debate exists here, (you're hardly objective).

actually i just posted a couple of completely objective posts and rather than using propaganda to define my opinions, i used specific authoritative definitions. see message 724 here; http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=58346&page=49

of course nobody is completely objective, that's the nature of mankind. We all have our preconceived notions but we CAN be RELATIVELY objective if we are able to recognise propaganda and sift it out of our belief systems for discussion.

[idleidolidyll]

It doesn't appear that informed logical debate exists here, (you're hardly objective).

my desire to discuss the specific issues raised by Ross Meurant seems to show that you are wrong. In the face of that repeated request, my detractors have merely posted ad hominem attacks on mew and Meurant.

So who's not being objective again?

[I Smell Bacon]

This is all I have to say on Meurant's comments on the so called terror raids.

The only reason that a disaffected ex police officer and failed politician like Meurant gets any airtime on this subject is because of the information gap left by the rules of sub-judice. Rules that the police must adhere to as the holders of the known facts of the case.

Despite releasing the basic facts to the media there is a nationwide craving for more. The police won't jeopardise their investigation by releasing any more than they have to and this leaves a huge information gap that the media become desperate to plug.

As a result of this gap the media follow whatever related stories they can in the mean time in the hope that they will get something juicy, the "storming" of the Kohanga Reo school bus for instance.

By now the misinformation presented in the media has developed into a generalised outrage amongst many of the public; who still only know the basic facts released by the police but are also tainted by the fallacious portrayals in the media.

Hence the need for a desperate media to engage people like Meurant for comment, to feed the fire and keep people listening, watching and reading.

If the police were able to come out straight away and present all their evidence people like Meurant would never be given any air time. However as a result Mr Iti and co would not receive a fair trial. This is the conundrum faced by the police investigators and media liaison personnel, how much do you release to satisfy the media and the public without jeopardising your 18 month long investigation?

Even though the police would love to hush the detractors they won't as the case is more important, so they just keep taking the kicks to the nuts in the knowledge that all will be revealed in time and the majority of right thinking kiwis will be 100% behind their actions. They are also fully aware that the most vocal critics like Meurant will never publish a retraction or an apology, they don't have to and they'll just vanish into obscurity again until the next drama unfolds.

None of the detractors are privileged to the evidence or the facts of the case, they have no basis upon which to base their criticism other than their own pre-conceived notions.

Once the facts are known to all then I would be willing to listen to anyone's opinions or criticisms but until then it is all speculation by those that have an axe to grind or wish to be heard for their own gain.

[Skyryder]

I see It's co conspiritors have taken to the streets. Lucky they don't live in Burma.

Skyryder

[peasea]

Hey; when you see cops lie in the box and lie to the PCA then have THEIR word taken over that of memebrs of the public (on more than one occasion) you can't help but get the impression that they are bunch of lying scumbag thugs. Are lying cops a minority? I doubt it. Is there a subculture of bully-boy tactics within the police? I'd suggest that there is. Can we trust them? I'd say no. Do they close ranks when the shit hits the fan? Yes, with monotonous regularity. Will they lie to save their own arses (and that of their cohorts) ? Yes. To deny it would be to insult our intelligence.

The NZ police have gone from bad to worse in recent years; frankly they are scum; dirty, bullying, trigger-happy, lying scum.

No doubt there'll be a mountain of b/s to follow this post but I don't care; I've seen and heard cops lying in the box and to the PCA again and again. If you have a beef with a cop (or cops) then tough shit for you. The system is set up to obliterate any complaint you may have, and any lies told by the stinking filth that the cops are will be taken as gospel by the powers that be.

You don't have a snow-balls' chance in hell of getting any satisfaction in any NZ court if a copper abuses his powers and you take him (or her) to task.

They're cunts and that's that.

[scumdog]

:woohoo:Well SOMEBODY has a burr in their saddle!!:crazy::gob:

[slowpoke]

Hey; when you see cops lie in the box and lie to the PCA then have THEIR word taken over that of memebrs of the public (on more than one occasion) you can't help but get the impression that they are bunch of lying scumbag thugs. Are lying cops a minority? I doubt it. Is there a subculture of bully-boy tactics within the police? I'd suggest that there is. Can we trust them? I'd say no. Do they close ranks when the shit hits the fan? Yes, with monotonous regularity. Will they lie to save their own arses (and that of their cohorts) ? Yes. To deny it would be to insult our intelligence.

The NZ police have gone from bad to worse in recent years; frankly they are scum; dirty, bullying, trigger-happy, lying scum.

No doubt there'll be a mountain of b/s to follow this post but I don't care; I've seen and heard cops lying in the box and to the PCA again and again. If you have a beef with a cop (or cops) then tough shit for you. The system is set up to obliterate any complaint you may have, and any lies told by the stinking filth that the cops are will be taken as gospel by the powers that be.

You don't have a snow-balls' chance in hell of getting any satisfaction in any NZ court if a copper abuses his powers and you take him (or her) to task.

They're cunts and that's that.

I just lurrrve these sorts of generalisations.....
I have no doubt the system could be improved, however there are several high profile coppers sitting in stir as we speak who bear witness that what you've said is wrong.
Are you saying members of the public don't lie? If I chose a copper at random and a member of the public at random I know who I would be more inclined to believe and it isn't Joe Public.

[I Smell Bacon]

Its interesting how one person can have so much experience with court, the PCA and alleged lying cops. Did you have another loss recently?

[davereid]

Are you saying members of the public don't lie? If I chose a copper at random and a member of the public at random I know who I would be more inclined to believe and it isn't Joe Public.

You have hit the nail on the head. There WILL be some cops who play the game a bit dodgy around the scrum. But, human nature being what it is, given the choice of walking down a dark alley at night, with blue power on the left hand side of the stret, and black power on the right, I'll be keepin very very left thanks !

No III thats doesnt mean I have become a socialwhatsit.

[Patrick]

The NZ police have gone from bad to worse in recent years; frankly they are scum; dirty, bullying, trigger-happy, lying scum.

I shower daily... I don't come 2nd in fights, it hurts too much, but I never start anything... I do arms training, thats it, once every 6 months, so if that is trigger happy...... as for lying, never had to as the dumbarses are regular fodder anyway, they come again and again and again...

I've seen and heard cops lying in the box and to the PCA again and again. If you have a beef with a cop (or cops) then tough shit for you.

Sounds like you get in the shit often.... axe to grind??? You're not Ross Meurant are you?????

They're cunts and that's that.

Could be worse... could be a TV3 reporter...

[Finn]

i agree

they should point it at you and do NZ a huge favour

I don't really think I'm a problem for NZ. In fact, my contribution to your socialist ideology is probably far greater than several generations of the entire Idle litter... even with the help of a good tax accountant.

But that's the irony of socialists who are mostly too stupid to realise that cutting off the hand that feeds them will eventually kick them right in the nuts.

[scumdog]

I don't really think I'm a problem for NZ. In fact, my contribution to your socialist ideology is probably far greater than several generations of the entire Idle litter... even with the help of a good tax accountant.

But that's the irony of socialists who are mostly too stupid to realise that cutting off the hand that feeds them will eventually kick them right in the nuts.

It doesn't matter 'cos they were RIGHT you capitalists were wrong, I know 'cos the socialists sed so.:shutup:

I love socialism, you can travel the length of the country for free, have a house, breed, get medical care, legal aid, a washing machine, a car and never EVER have to contribute or lift a finger, go socialism!!!!:woohoo:

[Mr Merde]

....I love socialism, you can travel the length of the country for free, have a house, breed, get medical care, legal aid, a washing machine, a car and never EVER have to contribute or lift a finger, go socialism!!!!:woohoo:

Isnt that called WINS, the DPB and all those other benifits that have three letter acronyms?

[idleidolidyll]

Isnt that called WINS, the DPB and all those other benifits that have three letter acronyms?

no, that's merely the result of the combination of ignorance and propaganda

[idleidolidyll]

Hey; when you see cops lie in the box and lie to the PCA then have THEIR word taken over that of memebrs of the public (on more than one occasion) you can't help but get the impression that they are bunch of lying scumbag thugs. Are lying cops a minority? I doubt it. Is there a subculture of bully-boy tactics within the police? I'd suggest that there is. Can we trust them? I'd say no. Do they close ranks when the shit hits the fan? Yes, with monotonous regularity. Will they lie to save their own arses (and that of their cohorts) ? Yes. To deny it would be to insult our intelligence.

The NZ police have gone from bad to worse in recent years; frankly they are scum; dirty, bullying, trigger-happy, lying scum.

No doubt there'll be a mountain of b/s to follow this post but I don't care; I've seen and heard cops lying in the box and to the PCA again and again. If you have a beef with a cop (or cops) then tough shit for you. The system is set up to obliterate any complaint you may have, and any lies told by the stinking filth that the cops are will be taken as gospel by the powers that be.

You don't have a snow-balls' chance in hell of getting any satisfaction in any NZ court if a copper abuses his powers and you take him (or her) to task.

They're cunts and that's that.

and those are my observations too

finally they will turn on their own and mongrel them viciously if they step out of line and criticise lying coppers and group think: fuck em, they don't deserve our respect

[Patrick]

and those are my observations too

finally they will turn on their own and mongrel them viciously if they step out of line and criticise lying coppers and group think: fuck em, they don't deserve our respect

What a fallacy!!!

[idleidolidyll]

What a fallacy!!!

the mongrelling ross meurant is getting proves my contention

[idleidolidyll]

I don't really think I'm a problem for NZ. In fact, my contribution to your socialist ideology is probably far greater than several generations of the entire Idle litter... even with the help of a good tax accountant.

But that's the irony of socialists who are mostly too stupid to realise that cutting off the hand that feeds them will eventually kick them right in the nuts.

we're not interested in the crumbs from your table; we want egalitarianism, humanism and honesty not greed and croneyism.

[idb]

we're not interested in the crumbs from your table; we want egalitarianism, humanism and honesty not greed and croneyism.

I agree completely...there's no place for cronyism...I hate cronyists...cronies are people too........................in fact some of my best friends are cronies...

[scumdog]

and those are my observations too

finally they will turn on their own and mongrel them viciously if they step out of line and criticise lying coppers and group think: fuck em, they don't deserve our respect

no, that's merely the result of the combination of ignorance and propoganda.

But if it WAS true? well I be wallowing in the trough paid for by you and your ilk...mwahahahaah!!

[scumdog]

Isnt that called WINS, the DPB and all those other benifits that have three letter acronyms?

Yup, after years of observing those acronyms being 'utilised' (abused) I would say you're on the X ring!!

[scumdog]

I agree completely...there's no place for cronyism...I hate cronyists...cronies are people too........................in fact some of my best friends are cronies...

So who made YOU the crone prince??

You could visit the fun park at Crony Island

My spanners are crone vanadium - does that mean they will look after me??

Is crones disease where you have to many toadying friends?

Is cronaligical order when your friends visit one at a time??

:Offtopic:

[I Smell Bacon]

the mongrelling ross meurant is getting proves my contention

He's not been mongrelled, his comments have been dismissed and the reasons given why. You speak with a forked tounge.

[Finn]

we're not interested in the crumbs from your table; we want egalitarianism, humanism and honesty not greed and croneyism.

Who is this "we" you keep referring to freak boy?

[imdying]

With a bit of luck they'll shoot and kill that street gang in Wellington... and anyone that bitches about them getting capped, they can cop one in the face too. I can't believe shooting one moron generates such an out cry, they should be killing more of these tards, not less.

[pritch]

With a bit of luck they'll shoot and kill that street gang in Wellington... and anyone that bitches about them getting capped, they can cop one in the face too. I can't believe shooting one moron generates such an out cry, they should be killing more of these tards, not less.


Do I deduce that you're not a Social Worker then? :sherlock:

[imdying]

Do I deduce that you're not a Social Worker then? :sherlock:If social workers are fine with people getting bashed from behind whilst their girlfriends get raped, then you can bloody well shoot them too!

[idleidolidyll]

He's not been mongrelled, his comments have been dismissed and the reasons given why. You speak with a forked tounge.

and your opinions as well as those of the sycophants regurgitating O'Connors propaganda have also been dismissed and the reasons given

[idleidolidyll]

Who is this "we" you keep referring to freak boy?

replying to a non abusive post with ad hominem seems to indicate some kind of penis envy

seek help

[scumdog]

and your opinions as well as those of the sycophants regurgitating O'Connors propaganda have also been dismissed and the reasons given

THAT is your opinion (and you're welcome to it) but it does not make it fact.

Hence my opinion reason for disagreeing with its accuracy and truth.

Oh, and WHO 'dismissed' my opinins and those of O'Connors???? Just you or???




'Walk a mile in another mans moccasins before you cast judgement on him'

[Finn]

replying to a non abusive post with ad hominem seems to indicate some kind of penis envy

seek help

You failed to answer my question Helen. Who is this "we" you refer to?

[idleidolidyll]

You failed to answer my question Helen. Who is this "we" you refer to?

You want me to name names?

run along son, the adults are playing today

[idleidolidyll]

THAT is your opinion (and you're welcome to it) but it does not make it fact.

Hence my opinion reason for disagreeing with its accuracy and truth.

'Walk a mile in another mans moccasins before you cast judgement on him'

indeed it is and it was given in reply to an equally stupid post

as for 'walk a mile': why don't you walk a mile in a victim of police violence's shoes then?

that's not what i saw when i entered this discussion: i saw a bunch of cops and cronies regurgitating Greg O'Connor's bullshit propaganda before the evidence had been heard

hypocrite?

[scumdog]

You want me to name names?

run along son, the adults are playing today


Hmm, if you're an adult I'd rather stay a child thanks all the same..

[idleidolidyll]

Hmm, if you're an adult I'd rather stay a child thanks all the same..

sometimes people make the right choices........................

i thought you were a cop?

i thought cops were not supposed to allowed access to this forum?

are you on leave?, compo?, unemployed sycophant?, playing online on the taxpayers dollar?

[Finn]

run along son, the adults are playing today

You got me there. Oh how I want to grow up... and one day, just one day, I just might be able to live in a ghetto in Manakau just like you.

You are such an inspiration Idle.

[scumdog]

sometimes people make the right choices........................

i thought you were a cop?

i thought cops were not supposed to allowed access to this forum?

are you on leave?, compo?, unemployed sycophant?, playing online on the taxpayers dollar?

Right, Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong again - you lose.

I do have access to this forum and at present (between beating prisoners and cuddling up to O'Connor) I am passing the time :Pokey: at a poster named idle X 3, a person who seems to think his opinion is right and the only valid one....



And I'll continue to do so until the boss walks in and catches me here.

[idb]

Right, Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong again - you lose.

I do have access to this forum and at present (between beating prisoners and cuddling up to O'Connor) I am passing the time :Pokey: at a poster named idle X 3, a person who seems to think his opinion is right and the only valid one....



And I'll continue to do so until the boss walks in and catches me here.

Hey buddy, I'm paying your wages and I've got my eye on you!!!

Get back to work!!!!

[pritch]

i thought cops were not supposed to allowed access to this forum?
are you on leave?, compo?, unemployed sycophant?, playing online on the taxpayers dollar?

i3 this message is somewhat symptomatic.

You start out with an absolutely baseless error of fact.

What wet dream made you decide Police were not allowed to access this site? There are several members of the Police are also members here. Believe it or not Police are allowed to have hobbies too.

You then use this erroneous data to extrapolate a number of entirely inappropriate conclusions. So basically the whole post is nonsense.

If you aren't careful this could be the story of your life. :whistle:

[idleidolidyll]

i3 this message is somewhat symptomatic.

You start out with an absolutely baseless error of fact.

What wet dream made you decide Police were not allowed to access this site? There are several members of the Police are also members here. Believe it or not Police are allowed to have hobbies too.

You then use this erroneous data to extrapolate a number of entirely inappropriate conclusions. So basically the whole post is nonsense.

If you aren't careful this could be the story of your life. :whistle:

actually it was one of the pigs themselves who said that they couldn't use forums like this during work hours; i see that scumdog is online at all hours and i merely ask a valid question

frankly i don't give a rats arse if that upsets you

[idleidolidyll]

Right, Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong again - you lose.

I do have access to this forum and at present (between beating prisoners and cuddling up to O'Connor) I am passing the time :Pokey: at a poster named idle X 3, a person who seems to think his opinion is right and the only valid one....



And I'll continue to do so until the boss walks in and catches me here.

what's really hilarious is that you think you're good at it

rotflmfao! i can do you in my sleep

[idleidolidyll]

You got me there. Oh how I want to grow up... and one day, just one day, I just might be able to live in a ghetto in Manakau just like you.

You are such an inspiration Idle.

a ghetto in manukau?

yurafukwitgrowabrainstupid

[Mom]

i3 this message is somewhat symptomatic.

You start out with an absolutely baseless error of fact.

What wet dream made you decide Police were not allowed to access this site? There are several members of the Police are also members here. Believe it or not Police are allowed to have hobbies too.

You then use this erroneous data to extrapolate a number of entirely inappropriate conclusions. So basically the whole post is nonsense.

If you aren't careful this could be the story of your life. :whistle:

If you can be arsed, have a look at his posts recently, he was away for a bit :banana: then came back. You will find an early returning one that says, he will even spout crap he does not believe to get a discussion going..... :tugger:

Fortunately I wont see his reply to my post.

[scumdog]

what's really hilarious is that you think you're good at it

rotflmfao! i can do you in my sleep

Good at 'it'? - I never realised there was a requirement to be good at 'it' (whatever 'it' is).

'Do' me in my sleep?
No thanks - I'll leave that to CB.

[Finn]

yurafukwitgrowabrainstupid

That's ghetto talk isn't it?

[riffer]

This thread is losing all merit if you just call each other names. :pinch:

[avgas]

there was a thread here? shit, next you will be telling me that the posters are over 12 and have motorbikes.......and are the actual sex they say they are.

[Patrick]

and your opinions as well as those of the sycophants regurgitating O'Connors propaganda have also been dismissed and the reasons given

Eyewitness fact, not propoganda, not O'Connors... Only you choose to see it as "propoganda" when the witnesses spoke merely the truth.



hypocrite?


actually it was one of the pigs themselves who said that they couldn't use forums like this during work hours; i see that scumdog is online at all hours and i merely ask a valid question

frankly i don't give a rats arse if that upsets you


a ghetto in manukau?

yurafukwitgrowabrainstupid

"Hypocrite" alright... Yes you are... didn't like the so called name calling but off you go as above... Go figure. Except the 1st one is actually a compliment, thanks!