Cheesecutter campaign

[MSTRS]

and as for nikoli's comment about concrete being dangerous even for bikers, i repeat my comment about pro racers hitting them at upwards of 200k and walking away. how do they do this if concrete is bad for bikers?

Depends on the angle of impact, at any speed. It's the sudden stop that does the damage.
Which is where the cheesecutter fails us...there is a sudden stop at no matter what angle you strike it.

[MSTRS]

Just a thought, how many of you would fly domestically, if you knew that two 737`s would crash each year killing all aboard?? - same as the road toll.



Sorry to bring this one up again, but...2 x 737 = 400 odd passengers as a percentage of the world's population of some 6 billion. Hardy compares, risk-wise.

[sunhuntin]

Depends on the angle of impact, at any speed. It's the sudden stop that does the damage.
Which is where the cheesecutter fails us...there is a sudden stop at no matter what angle you strike it.

cheers for that. still safer than most other types of barriers though.

[WelshWizard]

I would rather have less road barriers if it means the ones that are installed are going to be safer for all road users.



I have dropped a bike in years gone by and it was my fault. Should I face the death penalty for making a mistake? The guy that shot my father only got life (10) years, but you want me to die?

I just don't get it ...................

Seems to me we should be demanding that the designer of these WRBs should be prosecuted for Criminal negligence, for they are fully aware that these kill motorcyclist, maim motorcyclist, and very few motorcyclist walk away unscathed from any impact with WRBs or there Posts, and as they kill with ease the installer should be held responsible also, after all it would seem that the attitude is Bugger the motorcyclist we can live with any that get killed maimed or hurt, it's all a matter of price.

On the matter of Price

Watch the video on this website
http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/

On another note Nikolai_V states he is a Roading Engineer, does this mean he works for LTNZ or is a subcontractor doing repairs and maintenance to roads or is involved with the design and construction of new roads.

If in the employ of LTNZ then we all know where they are coming from now.

[WelshWizard]

From
http://bike.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=9683&forum_id=6&jump_to=213502#p213502

ExpatinIstanbul wrote:
Ok, found it. There's an article in MCN, December 12th issue, page 10. I aint gonna quote it as there's copyright stuff to consider. For those who don't know, MCN is a sister publication to Bike.

Oi! New editor boy! It seems that Bike readers want to read this article, should fill up a few pages of the next issue of Bike.

These barriers were installed on the Bosporous sea road, in Istanbul, but the local pikeys nicked them the night after installation. Outside a police station. With an armed guard outside. Bribery has been mentioned.

Seems the lads in Turkey have a different method of dealing with WRBs

[Grumpy]

Watch the video on this website
http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/


That website speaks volumes doesn't it? Why is it that our roading engineers don't seem to have the same acesss to the same information?

Watching that video reminded me of an incident on the Auckland motorway a few years ago. I was following a car in the outside lane in what was a typically busy traffic day. A dickhead in the middle lane decided to change into the outside lane, which forced the poor bugger who was already there to swerve to the right to avoid him. When he hit the concrete barrier his car was simply bounced back in the right direction where he managed to get himself over to the shoulder and then probably had to clean up the mess in his pants. What would have happened if that was a WRB?

I'm thinking that the car would have got caught up, probably spinning at a 90deg angle then being hit by the next car ( or in this case myself on my bike) thus causing something of a serious accident. I'm only guessing but it sounds fesible doesn't it?

WeslhWizard, that video is gold.

[Nikolai_V]

Seems to me we should be demanding that the designer of these WRBs should be prosecuted for Criminal negligence, for they are fully aware that these kill motorcyclist, maim motorcyclist, and very few motorcyclist walk away unscathed from any impact with WRBs or there Posts, and as they kill with ease the installer should be held responsible also, after all it would seem that the attitude is Bugger the motorcyclist we can live with any that get killed maimed or hurt, it's all a matter of price.

On the matter of Price

Watch the video on this website
http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/

On another note Nikolai_V states he is a Roading Engineer, does this mean he works for LTNZ or is a subcontractor doing repairs and maintenance to roads or is involved with the design and construction of new roads.

If in the employ of LTNZ then we all know where they are coming from now.

Currently with the great Satan (round here at least) Transit NZ... previously MWH (consultants), Fulton Hogan (Contractors) and an unnamed local council. been there done that, even had to go and evaluate fatal crash sites from a technical perspective and perform safety audits on new construction.

Slippery slope that mate. Even the stats quoted on here admit that only half the time is the other motorist at fault, have you seen that movie - the man who sued god? :)

On teh subject of LTNZ, there are quite a few active motorcyclists in LTNZ, esp in the South Island - believe me thsi is a topic which comes up over drinks....

[WelshWizard]

Double post some how

[WelshWizard]

Slippery slope that mate. Even the stats quoted on here admit that only half the time is the other motorist at fault, have you seen that movie - the man who sued god? :)



But it worked in the end ;)

[MSTRS]

... have you seen that movie - the man who sued god?


But it worked in the end ;)

Great movie. Based on a true story. And one where either outcome would have been a win.
In our case, though, there can be only one outcome that is acceptable. Because if Transit don't exist, where does that leave us?

[Ixion]

Great movie. Based on a true story. And one where either outcome would have been a win.
In our case, though, there can be only one outcome that is acceptable. Because if Transit don't exist, where does that leave us?

Grubbing up cheesecutters? And celebrating.

We did after all manage very well before Transit existed.

[MSTRS]

Grubbing up cheesecutters? And celebrating.

We did after all manage very well before Transit existed.

If transit don't exist, then yes, we will have to remove the fkn things ourselves...working bee, anyone?

[sunhuntin]

If transit don't exist, then yes, we will have to remove the fkn things ourselves...working bee, anyone?

you give me a power tool strong enough to cut those damned ropes, and ill take the whole central districts area... paraparas and as far south as sanson.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

you give me a power tool strong enough to cut those damned ropes, and ill take the whole central districts area... paraparas and as far south as sanson.

You don't need to much gear. You can buy wire rope guillotines. You need a solid base for them to sit on and you hit it with a sledge Hammer. Just measure the length of stand you need to sit it on and away you go. An 18 volt angle grinder should do it easy as. Not hard to damage them I wouldn't think. But I wouldn't know.

[swbarnett]

You don't need to much gear. You can buy wire rope guillotines. You need a solid base for them to sit on and you hit it with a sledge Hammer. Just measure the length of stand you need to sit it on and away you go. An 18 volt angle grinder should do it easy as. Not hard to damage them I wouldn't think. But I wouldn't know.
Just be careful of the whiplash when the tension is released. It'd be worse than slap with a whales tail..

[RiderInBlack]

Would be able ta run a few posts down with a truck:whistle:

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Just be careful of the whiplash when the tension is released. It'd be worse than slap with a whales tail..

True so you need to stand in front of the cut area so they pull away from you. It could kill you or take a limb off if you cut it and get hit by the rope. It takes a good clean whack with a heavy sledgehammer to get a clean cut with the guillotine so you will be standing in a safe place.

But it is not the way to stop these CC yet. Lets try the public support and political method first. No luck there then we need to be more proactive........... What ever that means........... So who reads this thread anyway??????

[swbarnett]

But it is not the way to stop these CC yet. Lets try the public support and political method first.
Indeed. Fun to think about it though.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

K enough of the fun stuff. Can we pick a date to gather the Petition please. Then we can organize a ride to hand it over. If we give plenty of notice we should be able to get people to take time off work and ride with us. We need a big turn out for this one. Make this the one that counts. Get the media along. I know you will want it to be a quiet ride like the last 3 but that does not sell News Papers. However I know most people will not come on a ride if it is not strictly controlled. So lets get some ideas going here.

[sAsLEX]

http://www.cheesecutter.co.nz/rider_no_protection_right_view.mpg

site no worky

[MSTRS]

http://www.cheesecutter.co.nz
Yes it does. Just no direct link to the movie clip.

[sAsLEX]

http://www.cheesecutter.co.nz
Yes it does. Just no direct link to the movie clip.

No the movie doesn't work. Even if you click on the link at the site, gives a 404 error. OR does it work for you?

[MSTRS]

Oooops - you are right. Get onto Sanx if you want.
It is this you mean eh? http://www.nmcu.org/av/rider_no_protection_right_view.mpg

[WelshWizard]

Is it not time for a bit of updateing on the CC site.
cut and paste of page below shows it to be very out of date.
__________________________________________________ _______________

Protest Rides
To demonstrate to those in authority that motorcyclists want to be able to ride New Zealand's roads in safety, protest rides are being organised across the country to raise awareness of the danger wire rope median barriers pose to motorcyclists and other road users.

Levin
Location Railway Station, Levin
Date Saturday 10th November, 2007
Time 3:30 pm

Wellington
Route TSS, Cuba St, Alicetown, Lower Hutt & Carpark outside The Sandbar, Plimmerton to the Parliament Buildings
Date Sunday 11th November, 2007
Time 11am from both departure points
Notes Sunday 11th November is Armistice Day. A minute's silence, in honour of those soldiers who fell in the two World Wars and subsequent conflicts, will be observed immediately prior to the start of the ride. Please remove your helmets and turn off the engine.

To help spread the word about the Wellington protest ride, download a copy of the flier here.

Previous Protest Rides
The Auckland protest ride on November 3rd was a huge success with over 400 bikes taking part. The Cheesecutter Campaign would like to express their gratitude to the New Zealand Police for working with the ride organisers to ensure riders' safety and helping the event proceed without a hitch.

At the end of the ride, with the attendees gathered around the Cenotaph in the Auckland Domain, spokesperson Jen Halliday outlined the aims of the campaign and called for as many people to sign the petition as possible. Felix Tsang, who witnessed Dan Evans' accident, spoke of the effects of the barriers in the event of a collision and pointed out that not only do the barriers pose a significant danger to motorcyclists, but they do not prevent heavy vehicles crossing into oncoming lanes. Just three days after Dan Evans' death, a truck smashed through the wire rope median barrier on State Highway 1 near Papakura, hitting two oncoming cars before crashing into trees on the far side of the road. The accident happened on the same stretch of barrier that claimed Dan Evans' life.

Protest attendees were cheered when a letter from the Hon. Annette King - Minister of Transport, Hon. Harry Duynhoven - Minister for Transport Safety, and Hon. Judith Tizard - Associate Minister for Transport was read out. The letter read:

Hon Annette King, Minister of Transport, Hon Judith Tizard & Hon Harry Duynhaven, Associate Ministers of Transport send a message to the rally for Safe Motorway Barriers.
We are all at the Labour Party Conference and we regret we cannot meet you, here at the Auckland Domain.
We support your campaign for safer roads for all New Zealanders and will work with Transit New Zealand to make sure that the barriers separating opposing lanes on our motorways are not a risk for motorcyclists.
Judith Tizard, for Annette & Harry

The event garnered excellent publicity, with the ride reported on One News and an article in the Sunday Herald.

Important ride information
Some rules and suggestions for taking part in the protest rides:

Please wear a red arm-band. Insulation or adhesive tape is easy to get hold of and effective.
Please adhere to all road rules during the rides. Follow the ride leaders who'll be wearing high-viz vests.
Any anti-social or dangerous behaviour will not be tolerated. Period.
Please register your attendance at the rides. Kiwibiker.co.nz has an online registration system for the Wellington ride. It is useful to the ride organisers to know how many people will be attending.

[Nasty]

Is it not time for a bit of updateing on the CC site.
cut and paste of page below shows it to be very out of date.

Should send them a message through their website contacts option. Might be more effective.

[WelshWizard]

I would but I don't seem to able to access the CC site at the moment, maybe they are doing some updating at the moment, I have sent e-mail through the CC's but never had a reply, I know its volunteers, so if they need help they should shout out.

[sunhuntin]

True so you need to stand in front of the cut area so they pull away from you. It could kill you or take a limb off if you cut it and get hit by the rope. It takes a good clean whack with a heavy sledgehammer to get a clean cut with the guillotine so you will be standing in a safe place.

But it is not the way to stop these CC yet. Lets try the public support and political method first. No luck there then we need to be more proactive........... What ever that means........... So who reads this thread anyway??????

so even standing still the fuckers'll maim ya? bloody hell!

im also up for a ride to deliver the petitions as well.

edit: found this on an american forum i frequent... posted in reply to an article about riding in the wet


Many years ago with quite a bit less experience I went down on a bridge in the Sierra Nevada mountains. It was a one lane bridge over my favorite fishing river. It had diamond plate steel wheel strips about 2 feet wide. It had been raining earlier in the day but the pavement leading up to the bridge was dry. I was moving along at a pretty good clip, probably about 45mph and the instant the front tire hit the steel strip things went into slow motion as I knew I was on my way down. I didn't get hurt that time but it scared the beejesus out of me worse than any crash I've ever had. The bridge was about 75 feet above the Stanislaus river (and rocks) with a cheese grater type guardrail and I just slid to a stop right in the middle of the wheel strip while I watched my motorcycle being shredded to pieces in helicopter fashion along that guardrail. Needless to say I did not go fishing that day (broke my damn fishing rod too) and I knew I was lucky to be alive. They say respect is born out of fear so I have had great respect for metal plates in the roadway ever since....

[kb_SF1]

was parked in NP today when harry stopped to look at the toy and mates bike, good discussion and harry is aware of the concern. He metioned 60k plus e-mails and has driven to auckland and said he was not happy about the wire on the left but when asked about the wire in the centre gave the cost v benefit reply. harry is approachable and maybe by-passing the gnomes in wgtn and going directly to the political power, especially with preasure from the nat MP might help progress things.

kb

[MSTRS]

was parked in NP today when harry stopped to look at the toy and mates bike, good discussion and harry is aware of the concern. He metioned 60k plus e-mails and has driven to auckland and said he was not happy about the wire on the left but when asked about the wire in the centre gave the cost v benefit reply. harry is approachable and maybe by-passing the gnomes in wgtn and going directly to the political power, especially with preasure from the nat MP might help progress things.

kb

Face to face is good. BUT Hurry Dunrovin is not a political heavyweight and he could perhaps be described as an apologist. He will not make any difference.
Note his stance here...
Auckland Protest Ride in Nov.2007
Protest attendees were cheered when a letter from the Hon. Annette King - Minister of Transport, Hon. Harry Duynhoven - Minister for Transport Safety, and Hon. Judith Tizard - Associate Minister for Transport was read out. The letter read:

Hon Annette King, Minister of Transport, Hon Judith Tizard & Hon Harry Duynhaven, Associate Ministers of Transport send a message to the rally for Safe Motorway Barriers.
We are all at the Labour Party Conference and we regret we cannot meet you, here at the Auckland Domain.
We support your campaign for safer roads for all New Zealanders and will work with Transit New Zealand to make sure that the barriers separating opposing lanes on our motorways are not a risk for motorcyclists.
Judith Tizard, for Annette & Harry

And then note it here...
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1335431&postcount=1

[WelshWizard]

Another bit of video info, left to me to post up by a mate who was over from Holland for the Puke Classic, Simon is now doing a tour further south before going back to Holland. he is better known to some as Ratbags on this iste, I hope he keeps posting info once back in Holland.
any way the link he gave me before leaving this morning.

http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

not sure what they are saying as my computer does not have a sound card installed. But he reckons its good.

[RiderInBlack]

any way the link he gave me before leaving this morning.

http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

not sure what they are saying as my computer does not have a sound card installed. But he reckons its good.Same vid as it this http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/ (http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/)
link ya gave earlier, but still a good idea.

[discotex]

not sure what they are saying as my computer does not have a sound card installed. But he reckons its good.

That is gold. Aimed at steel armco style barriers rather than cheesecutters but those things are just as bad if not worse.

The bit where it shows the bus hitting the concrete barrier shows the clear difference between WRB and armco style barriers. The barrier hardly even notices.

Interesting to see Vicki fronting it. Very slick marketing that pushes the cage safety angle far more than the biker one (while she looks hot in her leather jacket).

If we want change in NZ there are some lessons for how to get the message across in this vid.

[WelshWizard]

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but the PDF has some good points about cost of the WRB's when they put two runs as they have on the southern motorway just before the Autoban turn to Puke.

http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/WRB-reportV9.pdf
As its makes reference to Australian cost it has some interesting figures
$150+ Concrete per metre
$120+ Steel W-Beam per metre
$130+ Wire Rope Barrierper metre

So by double running these things they change the cost to
$260+ for Wire rope barriers, against $150+ for Concrete which as the video on step barriers show will only need one run not two.
Where the hell is the costsaving argument here:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[MSTRS]

Yungatart and I both did a mass mail to all MPs about our concerns.
Collectively, only some have replied but the responses have been 'interesting'...

* Supportive - National 12, Labour 3, Greens 2, NZ1 2, Act 0, United Future 2, Maori 0
* Negative - National 0, Labour 1, Greens 0, NZ1 0, Act 0, UF 0, Maori 0
* Non-committal - National 8, Labour 17, Greens 4, NZ1 3, Act 2, UF 0, Maori 0

The supportive MPs said things such as 'Not convinced these barriers are so great. Will be asking Transit for answers."
The sole Negative said 'They seem to work well on the Hamilton-Auckland highway' (oh, really?) It was Dianne Yates...perhaps she needs to be educated, like the email I sent back to her complete with info and photos.:devil2:
The Non-committal were mainly 'Not my department, have passed on to Min.of Transport' but did include one that said 'Thankfully there are none in my electorate' (watch this space, eh?)
Most telling is the total lack of response from the Maori party...

[discotex]

I was hoping with all the work on the northern they'd be replacing them but from what I saw today they're being spruced up even though the verge has shrunk.

[Quasievil]

I Was suitably impressed (not) with the super sized cheesecutter going around the track at paeroa on the weekend, seems okay on the track, same thing really, steel poles with 150mm deer fencing, bags not hit that stuff !!

[RiderInBlack]

Update please guys and girls. What the fu*k is happening? Any action happening, or are we going ta let them win cause we are sitting on our arses. Campaign took years in UK. We need to get more active, or are we happy to wait until someelse gets kill on these fu*ken things before we get our act together?

[T.I.E]

Update please guys and girls. What the fu*k is happening? Any action happening, or are we going ta let them win cause we are sitting on our arses. Campaign took years in UK. We need to get more active, or are we happy to wait until someelse gets kill on these fu*ken things before we get our act together?


yep got to agree, or were do we go to get updates?

[Ixion]

I suggest its time to call in the petitions. I doubt there are many more signatures to be gathered.

They need to be mailed in to a collation point (WHERE ?), collated and counted.

Then delivered to parliament (a tame MP needed).

I've a perception that some of the original team are pretty occupied with life stuff at the moment. maybe someone else could help with the collation stuff ?

[ManDownUnder]

Then delivered to parliament (a tame MP needed).


My local MP is John Key, happy to do that bit

[MSTRS]

My local MP is John Key, happy to do that bit

Good choice...along with some info for him so he will actually understand.

[ManDownUnder]

Good choice...along with some info for him so he will actually understand.

Right now, he's keen to score any points on the PM he can, he's likely to be in the next govt and he's likely to make statements we can hold him to (as much as any Polly)...

Give me the words, I'll don the suit and tie and pay the man a visit.

He wants the youth vote? He can get his MP butt on the back of the bike, come to the pub and have the ATNR meet him too.

[MSTRS]

Give me the words, I'll don the suit and tie and pay the man a visit.


Wing it, like the rest of us....seriously, those of us in support of those campaign are all on the same page, and all you need is in the Resource thread.

[BiK3RChiK]

If I have signed the petition at the local bike shop, then does my signing again on-line count?

Thanks,
M

[yungatart]

If I have signed the petition at the local bike shop, then does my signing again on-line count?

Thanks,
M

If you have signed the hard copy, please don't sign online. My understanding is that you invalidate both signatures by doing so.

[BiK3RChiK]

If you have signed the hard copy, please don't sign online. My understanding is that you invalidate both signatures by doing so.

Really? Well, I won't be signing on-line then! I hope everyone knows this... There could be heaps of invalid signatures on the petition from those who think they'll sign more than once because it is so important!!

Thanks!

M

[Gixxer 4 ever]

I hear our PM is happy for people to have silent protest cos she doesn’t have to listen to them. That’s what she said today.

I fucken told you so. We should have blocked the roads in the cities and made our voice heard.

And to you Bell….. up yours you wanker. You red rept me on this idea. But maybe you are one of them aye?

Oh by the way what happened to the petition? As we have no WRB in Hawkes Bay, yet, and we lead the charge against them I hope those of you who have them are happy to ride with them on either side of you every day.

Why has this protest died so easily? FFS

[RiderInBlack]

Yer we are so proactive:zzzz: (Tui's). Web site not updated. Little feedback as to how the Campaign is going. Not even much being posted on here any more. So do we still care? Would take a major rev-up ta get numbers for a ride now. So how can we get the ball rolling again?

[WelshWizard]

I hear our PM is happy for people to have silent protest cos she doesn’t have to listen to them. That’s what she said today.

I fucken told you so. We should have blocked the roads in the cities and made our voice heard.

And to you Bell….. up yours you wanker. You red rept me on this idea. But maybe you are one of them aye?

Oh by the way what happened to the petition? As we have no WRB in Hawkes Bay, yet, and we lead the charge against them I hope those of you who have them are happy to ride with them on either side of you every day.

Why has this protest died so easily? FFS

I must admit I think it is time to pull finger and make em sit up and listen, do we have to wait for another rider to be cut in half on these things before we get active again

[WelshWizard]

Just and up date from the Path Lab, as we have been talking to the patholgist about Dan injuries.

The only thing that Killed Dan ( Back_fire ) was the wire Rope Barrier cutting him in half, apart from a minor broken elbow ( more like a chip to the elbow) and gravel rash on his thighs,

had he not hit those WRB's he would have had no life threatening injuries.

THE WIRE ROPE BARRIERS ARE WHAT KILLED HIM NOTHING ELSE.

[yungatart]

Just and up date from the Path Lab, as we have been talking to the patholgist about Dan injuries.

The only thing that Killed Dan ( Back_fire ) was the wire Rope Barrier cutting him in half, apart from a minor broken elbow ( more like a chip to the elbow) and gravel rash on his thighs,

had he not hit those WRB's he would have had no life threatening injuries.

THE WIRE ROPE BARRIERS ARE WHAT KILLED HIM NOTHING ELSE.

That is so wrong, WW. My heart goes out to you and your family, a senseless, needless death. W
We can't wait for another family to lose a loved one to these things.
What is our next step? When?

[sunhuntin]

Yer we are so proactive:zzzz: (Tui's). Web site not updated. Little feedback as to how the Campaign is going. Not even much being posted on here any more. So do we still care? Would take a major rev-up ta get numbers for a ride now. So how can we get the ball rolling again?

if you, or anyone else, organises a ride, im guaranteed to be there, rain, hail or shine.
honestly, i feel the southern riders need to step in as well... contrary to popular belief, they are down there [4 seperate fences on the invercargill/bluff highway... wtf?] and they are all over the place, with more being added even as i type.

WW... i doubt that report is any comfort. just as a matter of interest, has the damage to the bike been confirmed yet [im mainly talking the failure of the bike that caused dan to come off in the first place] the crash puke had me wondering. it hurts to know that, without that rope, dan would still be here, and i didnt even know him.

[Katman]

THE WIRE ROPE BARRIERS ARE WHAT KILLED HIM NOTHING ELSE.

With all due respect, I think Dan's actions on the road that night played a large part in it as well.

[Divot]

I have heard that some of the wire rope barriers are coming out and croncert one going in.

This is to do with traffic numbers and the wire rope are cat 4 and the higher traffic leavels dictate that the barriers are cat 5.

[MSTRS]

With all due respect, I think Dan's actions on the road that night played a large part in it as well.

You never stop, do you? Yes, his actions contributed...he was riding his bike, wasn't he? A bit quickish, I hear you say...and you or anyone else hasn't from time to time? That has seldom been a reason to fall off. Especially not on a practically deserted motorway at 3am. I wonder how long we will wait for confirmation of what Daniel's dad has hinted at? Or is frame failure not a popular option with you, since it is outside the rider's control?

[MSTRS]

Yungatart and I both did a mass mail to all MPs about our concerns.
Collectively, only some have replied but the responses have been 'interesting'...

* Supportive - National 12, Labour 3, Greens 2, NZ1 2, Act 0, United Future 2, Maori 0
* Negative - National 0, Labour 1, Greens 0, NZ1 0, Act 0, UF 0, Maori 0
* Non-committal - National 8, Labour 17, Greens 4, NZ1 3, Act 2, UF 0, Maori 0

The supportive MPs said things such as 'Not convinced these barriers are so great. Will be asking Transit for answers."
The sole Negative said 'They seem to work well on the Hamilton-Auckland highway' (oh, really?) It was Dianne Yates...perhaps she needs to be educated, like the email I sent back to her complete with info and photos.:devil2:
The Non-committal were mainly 'Not my department, have passed on to Min.of Transport' but did include one that said 'Thankfully there are none in my electorate' (watch this space, eh?)
Most telling is the total lack of response from the Maori party...

Update...finally got a response from Ms Turia. I have to say that even though tardy, it was the only response that appears to have had some thought go into it. She almost seems to 'get it'. I attach it for all to read.
Oh, and the mass mail to all MPs was ...
Dear .....

Transit are heavily utilising the Wire Rope Barrier system known as
Cheesecutter on our roads, apparently in the name of safety, but in
contravention of international best practice as regards to
distance/positioning down the centre, not to mention the recent
appearance of these things on the shoulder as well. Do you condone the
increased risk this poses to motorcyclists? And are you aware that
unless struck at a shallow angle, cars will often go under the wires
with predictable results? And that larger vehicles will not be stopped
by this barrier? Concrete barriers are safer for all motorists, do not
require repair after a strike, last for at least 50 years, and therefore
their cost benefit far outweighs any initial savings on a cut-rate
dangerous fixture. For more information, visit www.cheesecutter.co.nz -
your support in this matter would be appreciated.
Regards

[yungatart]

With all due respect, I think Dan's actions on the road that night played a large part in it as well.

But, his actions did NOT contribute to his death, only to his accident. If he had not hit a Wire Rope Barrier, he would not have died.
How thick and/or insensitive are you?

[Katman]

But, his actions did NOT contribute to his death, only to his accident. If he had not hit a Wire Rope Barrier, he would not have died.
How thick and/or insensitive are you?

This post has me somewhat stunned.

You're suggesting his actions contributed towards his accident - but not his death?????

[yungatart]

This post has me somewhat stunned.

You're suggesting his actions contributed towards his accident - but not his death?????

Exactly. What is so hard to understand? If he had NOT hit that type of barrier, he would not have died.
And while you are busy editting what you say, how's about getting rid of that un-necessarily provocative little dig at MSTRS.

[WelshWizard]

With all due respect, I think Dan's actions on the road that night played a large part in it as well.

If going out for a ride with mates is contributing to the accident then every one of us does so every time we get on a bike,.


First just because some cops make a statement before he has all the facts does not mean he is right in fact it probably means he is wrong.

the only witness to the crash itself in his sworn statement clearly states that Dan was doing about 100 kph at the time of the accident, it also states that the witness saw the motorcycle break apart before any part came into contact with the WRB's,

our engineer is still waiting on police who as yet have not released all of the bike to him to complete his investigations, until he and our solicitor are satisfied that all evidence has been made available for our investigators to complete their test we will oppose any move to bring this to inquest, no way are the fact going to be swept away to make life simple for NZ Police, if he did some thing wrong then our investigators will find this out, as yet what our investigators have found suggest that Dan was not at fault.

[Hitcher]

This discussion has got more than a bit personal. Could the protagonists please leave their attitude at the door and get this thread back on topic, thus making sterner measures unnecessary.

This is a general warning.

[WelshWizard]

Maybe its time to organise another protest run , but this time why not get every center that has had a run previously to arrange that this one goes off on the same day, same time , with every center doing a run like this it will be able to attract more media attention, and this time we need to get plenty of posters showing what hapens to cars and lorries that hit these things, we are not like the Drink Driver campeign that as Mack the knife states just turn people off, we have to get every one aware that these things are killers and are being used as a cheap option, that will cost more on the long run to maintain,
as already proven by links already posted before,

if you need to know where, just look through the Cheese cutter threads, you will find plenty to think about already posted.

[MSTRS]

This discussion has got more than a bit personal. Could the protagonists please leave their attitude at the door and get this thread back on topic, thus making sterner measures unnecessary.

This is a general warning.

I agree.
And I'll ask here too, for that provocative 'location' to be changed.
The CC campaign, for better or worse, is about changing a barrier type that is exceedingly unfriendly to motorcyclists in particular. No matter the rights or wrongs of any particular incident involving them, if a rider dies as a result of hitting one, especially if it is 99% certain that death would not have occurred otherwise, then this type of barrier needs to go. End of story.

[RiderInBlack]

Maybe its time to organise another protest run , but this time why not get every center that has had a run previously to arrange that this one goes off on the same day, same time .Very Much Agree. But this time we need to adverise it in the local biker mags, and give enough time ta get all riders envolved. Summer is runnimg out fast Dudes and Dudettes.

[Jiminy]

Maybe its time to organise another protest run , but this time why not get every center that has had a run previously to arrange that this one goes off on the same day, same time ,

That's a good idea.

Just some feedback about the previous protest ride in Welly. I found it a bit useless. Here is a bunch of bikers who ride together towards the city, are parked on the side of the road for a few minutes, then go to the parliament to hear someone have a little talk to a couple of already convinced (or just vote-friendly) politicians and the same bunch of bikers who obviously support the cause. Impact on Joe Blogg: zero, (almost) nobody saw or heard about us. Info in newspapers or TV news: haven't seen any.

I'm not for a rampage in the city, but I think we also want to let the public know about our view and to let the politicians know that we will let the public know (that would tickle their interest in the cause). Maybe the next protest run, while still being nice and friendly, should take a route inside the city so that a) journalists will be compelled to write a story and b) Joe Blogg will see (or hear) plenty of bikers, wonder what this noise is all about, and watch/read the news that very same day.

Again, not complaining, just suggesting a more visible route (maybe down and up Courtenay Place). Of course, that will only work if we stay as disciplined as last time.

If we only speak to those who listen, we will be unheard.

[sunhuntin]

That's a good idea.

Just some feedback about the previous protest ride in Welly. I found it a bit useless. Here is a bunch of bikers who ride together towards the city, are parked on the side of the road for a few minutes, then go to the parliament to hear someone have a little talk to a couple of already convinced (or just vote-friendly) politicians and the same bunch of bikers who obviously support the cause. Impact on Joe Blogg: zero, (almost) nobody saw or heard about us. Info in newspapers or TV news: haven't seen any.

I'm not for a rampage in the city, but I think we also want to let the public know about our view and to let the politicians know that we will let the public know (that would tickle their interest in the cause). Maybe the next protest run, while still being nice and friendly, should take a route inside the city so that a) journalists will be compelled to write a story and b) Joe Blogg will see (or hear) plenty of bikers, wonder what this noise is all about, and watch/read the news that very same day.

Again, not complaining, just suggesting a more visible route (maybe down and up Courtenay Place). Of course, that will only work if we stay as disciplined as last time.

If we only speak to those who listen, we will be unheard.

agreed... we need to be more vocal... adverts in the bike mags and ALL local newspapers where rides are to be run [like the adverts for the herceptin ride... that jumped off the page of the dom and grabbed my attention] lots of people saw the wellington ride, but how many would have known what we were riding for? while i like the red bands, with them on the left arm, they arent easily visible.

katman: you preach about the stupidity of riders. wasnt it you that boasted about doing wheel stands at 130k, doing wheel stands with a pillion, going through the gears. i would love to see what you say if your bike falls to bits on its own and sends you into a wire rope, leaving you in two or more pieces. id love to see you explain away your own stupidity, that, by your standards, lead to your own death. have a heart: someone died due to a wire rope that shouldnt have been there, and remember, his parents and friends are reading, and they do not need to be torn apart more than they already have.

[WelshWizard]

Next time Auckland should have the run up Queens Street before we getto the final meeting place. If it causes Traffic Jams So we pay our Road fund and ACC levy, so that we can ride any where in so called safety.

[Ixion]

Y'know, demonstrations are unlikely to worry the Sheeple, who are the ones who make the decisions.They just annoy Joe Public.

And getting existing barriers removed is going to take time.

What might be better would be rideins to prevent new cheesecutters being erected. So if contractors tried to install new ones, several hundred bikes converge on the spot. Impossible to erect the barriers. Very vexatious for the contractors , to be sure, and for Transit, but not bothering Joe Public. And bound to get lots of publicity.

We just need a heads up system for new ones being erected.

[Katman]

katman: you preach about the stupidity of riders. wasnt it you that boasted about doing wheel stands at 130k, doing wheel stands with a pillion, going through the gears.

I have absolutely no idea where you got that from.

[Ixion]

I don't think that was Mr Katman. I remember the thread, but I don't think it was him.

[Ocean1]

We just need a heads up system for new ones being erected.

Ever seen the full legal documentation required for OSH compliance on civic works like that?

What are the chances any contractor has fully complied with national, regional council, specific industry OSH and internal corporate ISO compliance policies?

How long do you think any contractor would continue to tender for such work if they knew some random busybody was making it their business to ensure that every i was dotted and t crossed for every OSH bullet point required by every entity involved?

What are the mechanisms that such a busybody (or well organised group of such) might employ to ensure perfect OSH compliance?

And at an even more pre-emptive level, what resource consent procedures are required before such work can be approved? How many obstacles can be stuck in dem spokes?

[WelshWizard]

I don't think that was Mr Katman. I remember the thread, but I don't think it was him.



I have absolutely no idea where you got that from.

The post in question




Originally Posted by carver
tell the world buddy

not many bumps on the motorway, and just as a fact, i have NEVER lost a wheelie, done em 2 up, stand ups, up to 130 kph, through the gearbox....

so cry me a river..carver did a wheelie..wahhhhh
No it was not Katman who made the post.

[sunhuntin]

cheers WW... given their attitudes, they are easy to confuse.

katman, my apologies, but maybe you need to try preaching to carver, who could learn from you, as opposed to kicking the dead and their families.

[MSTRS]

from one of the Oz sites, found in a PDF file this little nugget

Australian/New Zealand Standards 3845:1999

Requires that the needs of all road users are taken properly into account when selecting appropriate Crash Barriers.[/SIZE][/B]

Time for Fair Go?? Won't sort it, but will draw huge publicity to the problem. Anyone in their office area want to make an approach???

[MSTRS]

Response received from Harry head in the sand Duynhoven....
I can think of so many responses to the contents, but I suspect a sane(r) head might be reqd here. The tired platitudes, the assumption that motorcyclists are all speed/drug/booze crazed maniacs, the 'no more dangerous than other barrier types', Daniel's alleged speed,...hell, he addressed his sole response to Yungatart and I as 'Mr + Mrs B...' when we wrote independently and separately to him.

[Ixion]

Hm

"As long as motorcyclists ride to suit the conditions .. by adjusting their speed downward"

So. As the maximum SAFE speed to hit a WRB is , what , 30kph ? I would take it that Mr Duynhoven's officials' letter (he never wrote that himself, it came from Transit) give authority for massed motorcyclists to ride at around 30kph through areas with WRBs.

Not that I would suggest such a thing of course. But if anyone did, and people complained about the resulting chaos, the snaswer would be simple "Mr Duynhoven told us to do it"

[Ixion]

Icidentally, has anyone considered the cumulative effect of two of Transit's more notable failures, tar bleeding and cheesecutters?

Could be a way to hit them with a double whammy.

[MSTRS]

Every thing (he) said raises my hackles, but a standout one has to be 'without barriers all we have is a white line...' How many kms of unbarriered roads do we have, and is he subtley suggesting that every road is to be treated?

[Ixion]

That phrase is one of the indications that Transit wrote the letter, it's one of their stock ones that they trot out at every opportunity.

The obvious response is "Well, no motorcyclists have been cut in half by white lines, which is more than be said for cheescutters"

[discotex]

And the UK is removing armco and WRBs from the "central reservation" and replacing them with concrete as they come to the end of their usable life-span.

The least Transit can do is stop installing them. Everyone else seems to have figured out that's a good idea.

The problem with these morons is there's little point getting into a discussion via post about it. It's no more likely to change their minds than arguing with someone on a forum. Their position is entrenched and you'll soon enough get a "I hope you now agree with me as I've stopped reading your letters" ending. You got one close on this letter.

The only thing that will change anything is public opinion or by fluke getting someone sympathetic in the right position. I hate to say it but I think Transit are too anti-motorcycle to see that happen any time soon.

[MSTRS]

And the UK is removing armco and WRBs from the "central reservation" and replacing them with concrete as they come to the end of their usable life-span.

The least Transit can do is stop installing them. Everyone else seems to have figured out that's a good idea.

The problem with these morons is there's little point getting into a discussion via post about it. It's no more likely to change their minds than arguing with someone on a forum. Their position is entrenched and you'll soon enough get a "I hope you now agree with me as I've stopped reading your letters" ending. You got one close on this letter.

The only thing that will change anything is public opinion or by fluke getting someone sympathetic in the right position. I hate to say it but I think Transit are too anti-motorcycle to see that happen any time soon.

That has the ring of truth.
Time for militant action then ??? If the powers-that-be won't listen to logical, reasoned argument - we are left with little else. Or give up?

[discotex]

That has the ring of truth.
Time for militant action then ??? If the powers-that-be won't listen to logical, reasoned argument - we are left with little else. Or give up?

Not sure really... It's the age old issue. Militancy doesn't usually achieve the goal either as the establishment just steps up their anti-campaign and jails the activists.

Best bet is to get more bikers on the road until there's enough of us that they fear us voting against them. Either that or fight the propaganda war and hammer the point home next time someone is injured or killed hitting one of these.

[WelshWizard]

Response received from Harry head in the sand Duynhoven....
I can think of so many responses to the contents, but I suspect a sane(r) head might be reqd here. The tired platitudes, the assumption that motorcyclists are all speed/drug/booze crazed maniacs, the 'no more dangerous than other barrier types', Daniel's alleged speed,...hell, he addressed his sole response to Yungatart and I as 'Mr + Mrs B...' when we wrote independently and separately to him.


So much for facts,
quoteing speed as a reason for Dans accident because a cop state's on TV in an interview the same morning before all evidence is in,They had not even had their crash engineers look at the Bike then, or any other evidence, and the cop totally ignored the one and only witness to the actual crash, I say again sworn statement of witness puts Dans bike at about 100kph at the time of the accident, it's a motorway speed limit is 100kph and it's comon knowledge that the cops except 110kph as the cut off before they do anything, or even consider you are breaking the speed limit in other Countries if they have a speed limit, just 1 kph over and you can be done for speeding.
As for Drugs and Alcohol Path Lab confirms that Dan had neither in his sytem, so Duynjovens atempt to blacken the details of Dan's accident just shows his metal ability is highly lacking, because if he had the facts he would not make such rash statements by his trying to stereo type this accident


H Duynjoven MP for New Plymouth needs to not speculate but get the facts, these facts will not be readaly available untill after the inquest. and then I think we need more than spluttering from these people, but true answers as the truth will be out,
(As I have stated previously our investigators differ greatly from the view of the Police.)

So in the mean time all we can do is keep hammering away, and if we get good responces from another
party we all know the answer this year. even though I don't belive a change of government will bring a change to the attitude of LTNZ, as they even ignore the safety Standards of New Zealand

[MSTRS]

Perhaps you could contact him in your capacity as Daniel's dad, and put Harry Tosspot in receipt of what you know from investigations and pathologist.
This tosser needs a decent serve....Remember the statement made by the Transport portfolio ministers at the very beginning of this campaign??
Hon Annette King, Minister of Transport, Hon Judith Tizard & Hon Harry Duynhaven, Associate Ministers of Transport send a message to the rally for Safe Motorway Barriers.
We are all at the Labour Party Conference and we regret we cannot meet you, here at the Auckland Domain.
We support your campaign for safer roads for all New Zealanders and will work with Transit New Zealand to make sure that the barriers separating opposing lanes on our motorways are not a risk for motorcyclists.
Judith Tizard, for Annette & Harry Taken from the front page of the campaign website.

[WelshWizard]

We need to ask them why they fail to comply with their own government safety standards and why is Osh or what ever they call them selve not looking at the safety records of these things we all know, because we have taken time to look that these WRB's fail to stop cars, Fail to Stop lorries, Fail in a manor that is safe for motorcycles , Hell 5 minutes on the Net and they can find examples of how these things have failed leading to the death of many people, and in one case a Lady Police officer, maybe once a few Cops in New Zealand have died on these things the NZ Police will start complaining as well, I suspect the ones on Motorcycles may in practice already do so but are out numbered by the car driving ones who tell them they are paraniod or are foolish!

[WelshWizard]

Every thing (he) said raises my hackles, but a standout one has to be 'without barriers all we have is a white line...' How many kms of unbarriered roads do we have, and is he subtley suggesting that every road is to be treated?

But in certain areas they are removeing Concrete barriers to install these things.

[WelshWizard]

Cut and paste of an e-mail I recieved fron the

Transportation Research Board

500 Fifth St., NW

Washington, DC 20001

USA

Dear Mr***********

Your request was forwarded to me. I did a search in our database Transportation Research Information Service (TRIS) at http://tris.trb.org/about and retrieved two documents. I’ll let you know if I get any further information.



Title:
Motorcycle Impacts into Roadside Barriers – Real-World Accident Studies, Crash Tests and Simulations Carried Out in Germany and Australia

Accession No:
01066485

Authors:
· Berg, F Alexander

· Rucker, Peter

· Gartner, Marcus

· Konig, Jens

· Grzebieta, Raphael H

raphael.grzebieta@eng.monash.edu.au

· Zou, Roger

Conference Title:
· 19th International Technical Conference on the Enhanced Safety of Vehicles

Date Held: 20050606 - 20050609

Washington, DC , United States

Corp. Authors
/ Publisher:
· National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov

400 7th Street, SW

Washington, DC 20590 USA

Publication Date:
20050600

Description:
13p; Figures; Photos; References(7); Tables(7)

Media Type:
Web

Languages:
English

Abstract:
Roadside protection systems such as steel guard rails or concrete barriers were originally developed to protect occupants of cars and/or trucks – but not to protect impacting motorcycle riders. Motorcycle rider crashes into such barriers have been identified as resulting in severe injuries and hence has become a subject of road safety research. The German Federal Highway Research Institute (BASt) requested DEKRA Accident Research to analyze real-world crashes involving motorcycles impacting roadside barriers and to identify typical crash characteristics for full-scale crash tests of a conventional steel system and a concrete barrier. A study of 57 real-world crashes identified two crash test scenarios which have been carried out: one with the motorcycle driven in an upright position and one with the motorcycle with the rider sliding on the road surface. The pre-crash velocity chosen was 60 km/h. The impact angle was 12° for the upright driven motorcycle and 25° for the motorcycle and rider sliding. Two crash tests have been conducted to analyze impacts onto conventional steel guard rails and two tests to analyze impacts onto a concrete barrier. Two additional full-scale crash tests were carried out to analyze the behavior of a modified roadside protection system made from steel. A second phase of the work involved carrying out computer simulations at Monash University?s Department of Civil Engineering. The DEKRA results from the crash test, where the upright motorcycle impacts the concrete barrier, were used to validate a MADYMO motorcycle-barrier model. This model was then used to investigate other impact speeds, a 25° impact angle scenario and different impact scenarios between an upright motorcycle and a wire rope barrier system. The results revealed that the risk for motorcyclists of being injured when colliding with either a wire rope or a concrete barrier will be high. The paper describes the relevant real-world accident scenarios, the different roadside protection systems used for the tests, the crash tests, the modeling simulations and the results, and proposes improvements to barrier systems to reduce injury severity.

TRT Terms:
Accident investigation; Barriers (Roads); Guardrails; Impact tests; Injury severity; Motorcycle accidents; Motorcycles; Simulation; Velocity; Wire rope

Geographical
Terms:
Australia; Germany

Identifier Terms:
MADYMO (Computer program)

Other Terms:
Impact angle

Subject Areas:
I80 Accident studies; H51 SAFETY; H53 VEHICLE CHARACTERISTICS; I91 Vehicle design and safety

Report Number:
05-0095

Availability:
· National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov

400 7th Street, SW

Washington, DC 20590 USA

URLs:
Document: http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf

TRIS Files:
HRIS

Database:
TRIS Online




Title:
MOTORCYCLE AND SAFETY BARRIER CRASH-TESTING: FEASIBILITY STUDY

Accession No:
00806707

Authors:
· Duncan, C

· CORBEN, B

· TRUEDSSON, N

· Tingvall, C.

Journal Title:
· Publication of: University of Adelaide, Australia

Publisher: University of Adelaide, Australia

ISSN: 0810-770X

Corp. Authors
/ Publisher:
· Monash University, Australia

Accident Research Centre, Wellington Road

Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia

· Australian Transport Safety Bureau

www.atsb.gov.au

P.O. Box 967, Civic Square

Canberra ACT 2608, Australia

· University of Adelaide, Australia

Road Accident Research Unit

Adelaide 5005, Australia

Publication Date:
20001200

Description:
61 p.; Figures(12); References(33); Tables(1)

Languages:
English

Abstract:
Road safety barriers are designed to enhance the safety of the road infrastructure by containing errant vehicles and reducing the severity of off-path collisions. Experience indicates that conventional barrier systems used in accordance with specific guidelines have performed well in protecting the occupants of passenger cars. However, their effects on the safety of motorcyclists, is somewhat of a problem. Given the limited available information on motorcycle-carrier interactions and the lack of established procedures for motorcycle crash-testing, the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) commissioned a preliminary investigation of relevant issues. The main purpose of the project was to recommend a research method for investigating the interactions between motorcycles and road safety barriers. Specific objectives were to: (1) identify barrier design issues likely to impact motorcycle rider safety; (2) identify relevant rider injury mechanisms; (3) identify and assess the feasibility of research methods for investigating interaction between motorcycles and safety barriers; and (4) recommend a research program using the aims of the project described above.

TRT Terms:
Barriers (Roads); Collisions; Computers; Crash injuries; Motorcycle accidents; Occupant protection devices; Safety; Simulation

Subject Areas:
H21 FACILITIES DESIGN; I21 Highway and transport planning

ISBN:
0642255563

Report Number:
CR 201

Availability:
· Australian Transport Safety Bureau

www.atsb.gov.au

Canberra ACT 2608, Australia

TRIS Files:
HRIS

Database:
TRIS Online




I hope this helps.



Jessica Fomalont

Librarian

Transportation Research Board

500 Fifth St., NW

Washington, DC 20001

USA

(202) 334-2989

(202) 334-2527 (fax)

jfomalont@nas.edu

[henry]

I see they are putting cheese cutters on the sides of the road now too, eg. SH 1 near Waikanae. So much for preventing head on accidents.

[sunhuntin]

thats to protect the ditches. the side barriers have been there a few months now. we have them up here as well... 2 strands on the left leading south to turakina, and one strand leading north to kaitoke. the kaitoke one i damn near hit one night due to lack of reflectors.

mstrs... we CANNOT give up. i wish i knew what the answer was.

[Katman]

Until motorcyclists take a fresh look at how they accept personal responsibility the Cheesecutter campaign will continue to struggle for any real degree of support.

[sunhuntin]

how can one take "personal responsibility" if you are behind the car that hits the barrier and gets flicked back into you? hard to stop in half the distance when that distance is closing in reverse. what about if a car fails to stop, throwing you into them. if i recall, youve been asked that before, but im yet to see your answer.

try preaching to someone else, like skidmark, who actually has something to learn.

[MSTRS]

Just sent to the office of Harry Hopeless...
I am in receipt of a typed and posted regular letter from Harry Duynhoven on this subject. I was not impressed with the tone he took which was one of basic disinterest, that Transit know best and that these Cheesecutters are of no danger to motorcyclists. He is right in one thing only...no danger exists ONLY if no collision with the barrier occurs. I wish to strongly protest his failure to understand the concern motorcyclists have with these so-called 'safety barriers'. I would further protest his 'understanding' of the reason for the death of Daniel Evans - I am aware from Daniel's father that all is not what it seemed at the time of the accident, and we await the crash investigator's report with interest.
I also bring Harry's attention to his own words in conjunction with Annette King and Judith Tizard...
Hon Annette King, Minister of Transport, Hon Judith Tizard & Hon Harry
Duynhaven, Associate Ministers of Transport send a message to the rally for
Safe Motorway Barriers.
We are all at the Labour Party Conference and we regret we cannot meet you, here at the Auckland Domain.
We support your campaign for safer roads for all New Zealanders and will work with Transit New Zealand to make sure that the barriers separating
opposing lanes on our motorways are not a risk for motorcyclists.
Judith Tizard, for Annette & Harry

[sunhuntin]

nice one, sir. see what form response that gets.

[Waxxa]

Perhaps we (bikers) need to stage a another protest ride, co-ordinated around the main centres were these 'Cheesecutters' are and continue these 'protest rides' every 3-4 months say... invite media to cover the 'rides'.

How about a 'ride' to LTSA head offfice to protest?

I guess I'm trying to say is we also need this protest to be visual, in the publics eye as well as the paper-war.

[Grumpy]

Interesting article in the Domion this morning about the benifitsof concrete barriers as apposed to WRB's. Unfortunately I couldn't find it online but it showed that it's not just bikers that have an issue with them. The bloke that wrote it was connected to the concrete industry so one could argue that he has a vested interest but it raised some good points.

[El Dopa]

The Monash University studies should be freely available on their website. I'm not sure if the Adelaide one's are.

[Skunk]

As a side note to current discussions: I have printed about 100 electrostatic decals if anybody wants them. They are safe to stick to any smooth surface (glass, metal, paintwork etc)

I don't want to post them out one at a time as they cost enough to get printed. So if there are areas that want them someone from that area can get in touch.

[WelshWizard]

Media Release

PETER GUTWEIN, MHA
Shadow Minister for Infrastructure
Austrailia

Friday, 25th January 2008

Wire rope barrier concerns

Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Peter Gutwein, has called on the State Government to consider the views of the Tasmanian Motorcycle Council relating to the roll out of wire rope barriers along the State’s major highways.

Mr Gutwein said the Council was growing increasingly worried that Infrastructure Minister, Jim Cox, was ignoring their concerns regarding the safety of the barriers for motorcycle riders, and the ongoing costs for the maintenance of the barriers.

“The Council is very concerned that these types of barriers will lead to an increase in deaths and injury to motorcycle riders while also costing Tasmanian taxpayers for the on-going maintenance that is required to keep them in order,” Mr Gutwein said.

“I have been made aware that a number of European countries that have previously supported the use and rollout of wire rope barriers are now replacing them with barriers that take into account the needs of all road users including motorcyclists.

“In Britain, the Netherlands and Norway wire rope barriers are no longer being rolled out and in some cases are being dismantled and replaced with metal guards or concrete barriers.

“These barriers may be cheap and easy to install initially, however the Minister must outline what the costs are for the ongoing upkeep and repair of the barriers compared to other types of barriers.”


Pity Dunny does not read information about barriers before counting pennies in the short term.

[Genestho]

Hmmm

Harry doesnt seem to be a very pleasant bloke in the flesh from what I hear. Goodluck if you meet with him. My co-campaigner had a most unpleasant experience with him, he was arrogant, bullying and very unprofessional.
Which considering what we've been and going through doesnt faze us in the least and I guess means whatever we're doing is working. Its yet another character building process.

If you can get to the guy that wrote the article in the Dom, he might be a great ally, vested interest or not..

Good to see your all still cracking the whip

[sunhuntin]

As a side note to current discussions: I have printed about 100 electrostatic decals if anybody wants them. They are safe to stick to any smooth surface (glass, metal, paintwork etc)

I don't want to post them out one at a time as they cost enough to get printed. So if there are areas that want them someone from that area can get in touch.

you are a legend sir... i love your stickers, they are great. still have mine, but with the sale of the 500 [and its windscreen...] i now have nowhere to display where it wont fall off.

[The Stranger]

So is Dennis Davis correct when he states that "Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers?

[WelshWizard]

So is Dennis Davis correct when he states that "Currently there is no evidence of wire-rope barriers posing any more of a danger to motorcyclists than other barriers?


Many thanks for the artical,
after reading I am left wondering what planet Dennis Davis lives on,
he tries to downplay the fact that WRB are loseing favour in many of the countries of Eutope and some have actualy banned there use,

He claims that concrete needs space and implies that concrete would have been considered along Centennial Highway, but the road was not wide enough to accomadate Concrete,
What about the Southern Motorway from Auckland, enough room there for concrete and only one line of Concrete would be required instead of two lines of WRB's.

He makes no mention of the cars and Trucks that have crossed through the WRB's Cars can still go under WRB's and through them as per Falcon on the CC website, and if he looks at the link to the students that died in the Mazda that went under the WRB's in Nebraska he will find that this has heppened before, and the Truck that just rolled through the WRB in Oct 2007 is another example of there failure the Souther Motorway .

Most vehicals that come into concrete Barriers glance off unless hitting at an acute angle, same factors apply to a motorcyclist, only difference being that a glancing action on a bike is going to be as deadly as hitting at an acute angle as all the WRB's do is guide the motorcyle into the post, ( there design is such that the post are supposed to give way and aid the slowing down of a car or lorry,

for those who still dought, read the cut and paste of an e-mail with links you can follow up as to what research has been done in the States


Dear Mr. **************


One of my colleagues suggested that you contact Clay Gabler at VA Tech [gabler@vt.edu] as he has done some work on motorcycle crashes with barriers. Also try Nick Artimovich, FHWA, (Nick.Artimovich@dot.gov).



Jessica Fomalont

Librarian

Transportation Research Board

500 Fifth St., NW

Washington, DC 20001

USA

(202) 334-2989

(202) 334-2527 (fax)

jfomalont@nas.edu

and the following statement

Corp. Authors
/ Publisher:
· National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov

400 7th Street, SW

Washington, DC 20590 USA

Publication Date:
20050600

Description:
13p; Figures; Photos; References(7); Tables(7)

Media Type:
Web

Languages:
English

Abstract:
Roadside protection systems such as steel guard rails or concrete barriers were originally developed to protect occupants of cars and/or trucks – but not to protect impacting motorcycle riders. Motorcycle rider crashes into such barriers have been identified as resulting in severe injuries and hence has become a subject of road safety research.

Please note the statement

Motorcycle rider crashes into such barriers have been identified as resulting in severe injuries

As this statement is made by a USA based authority they will have far more evidence about crashes than even NZ can handle after all they have over 3 million people in the States compared to our nearly 4 million.
so they will have far better ideas about what is identified as a servere

steel guard rails are no better than WRB's they still have post exposed at least they have found in their report that concrete is mainly a danger when hit at acute angle

[swbarnett]

He claims that concrete needs space and implies that concrete would have been considered along Centennial Highway, but the road was not wide enough to accomadate Concrete,
The problem here is that WRB isn't even installed according to the manufacturers specifications. When's the last time anyone saw a 6m wide concrete barrier? If there's room for a WRB there's room for concrete.

[WelshWizard]

The problem here is that WRB isn't even installed according to the manufacturers specifications. When's the last time anyone saw a 6m wide concrete barrier? If there's room for a WRB there's room for concrete.


True but we have to remember we are dealing with TNZ and Dunjovin here and they see a small gap as WRB's I think maybe they need to RTFM on these things before engageing their tounges, while the brain is still in neutral

Sorry folks not many things get me mad but stupid is as stupid does as far as TNZ and Dunjovin are concearned

[WelshWizard]

THis may not be about WRB's but this e-mail that I recieved covers some of the things used by Dunyjovin re Motorcycle crash data, it is worth his time to look read and note the e-mail and its links as this shows how responcable minister should be handleing motorcycle safety.


RRF Mc-Research

Transport for London's motorcycle safety video

1. I annex the description and URL of a motorcycle safety
video that, as I understand, Transport for London broadcast as
an advertisement on British TV in the London area earlier this
month.
I don't have a television set, and can't currently play
videos. But I did hear the similar audio advertisement that
TfL broadcast on the radio.

[In the annex I give the URL of the description first. The URL
of the video follows.

If anyone can save and circulate the video, I am sure that
other forum members would appreciate receiving it.]

2. If the content of the video is the same as the content of
the radio advertisement it will make the points, as I remember
them, that:
* People underestimate the time of arrival of small objects
* People misestimate the speed and distance of motorcycles.

3. If so, by the standards of motorcycle safety advertisements,
the video would represent very sophisticated stuff!
Certainly I have never before heard or seen any
advertisement make the same points.

Instead all I have heard or seen is a constant reiteration of
variants exclusively on one or other of the two themes: 'Look
out for motorcycles!' (ie lack of conspicuity of motorcycles);
or 'Think motorcycle!' (ie lack of expectation of motorcycles).

4. What is the source in the research literature of the
assertions that Transport for London makes in the
advertisement?

I am not up-to-date on the motorcycle perception literature,
so that I depend upon other forum members to help.

Mark Horswill has published recently on the subject.
There were also not so long ago Martin Langham and Graham
Hole.
And there may well be others.

5. As to the importance of knowing Transport for London's
source, I've often pointed out as a glaring research need the
conduct of a study to establish by a satisfactory method the
errors of misestimation of the speed and distance of an
approaching motorcycle that observers make.

[People assume that such a study will find that observers
overestimate the time of arrival of a slower vehicle, but
underestimate the time of arrival of a faster vehicle.
They assume that the crossover from overestimation to
underestimation will take place at the speed of travel
that is the normal speed of traffic on the road.
But in road safety assumptions must vitally be tested
and verified.]

Likewise I've pointed out the need of a study to establish the
threshold figures of the rate of change of angle subtended at
the observer's eye that a small object must make in order for
the observer to be physically able to estimate the object's
speed.

[I suspect, on the basis of some rough-and-ready preliminary
findings that are digested by Dr Brian Hills in Hills 1980,
that, in head-on view, the rate of change of angle subtended
of an approaching motorcycle may often fall below the
threshold figure for detection by the human eye.
If so other road users will not physically be able
to estimate the motorcycle's speed of approach, and so,
rightly or wrongly, be forced to rely upon the expectation
that it is travelling, say, at the normal speed of other
traffic on the road.]

So it would be excellent news if it turns out that a
satisfactory study of either type has now been conducted.

Stephen Prower

Stevenage

Saturday 29 March 2008

--------------------

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/mar/05/advertising.transport
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/video/2008/mar/05/advertising.london

Livingstone unveils road safety advert

Mark Sweney
guardian.co.uk
Wednesday March 5 2008

London mayor Ken Livingstone has unveiled the first in a series
of TV ad campaigns that aim to cut accidents on the capital's
roads by seeking to raise awareness of motorbikes and cyclists
among younger drivers.

The first TV ad campaign, created by ad agency M&C Saatchi,
focuses on urging drivers to be more aware of an increase in
motorcyclists on London's streets with the onset of spring.

Launching this week, the first ad uses the strapline "Give
motorcyclists a second thought".

The first ad uses the image of an optical illusion to illustrate
how the mind can be tricked by certain visual information.

M&C Saatchi's campaign points out that drivers often believe
that small objects, such as motorcyclists, take longer to
approach than bigger ones, such as cars.

The TV ad is the first of three TV ad campaigns that are being
run by the mayor and Transport for London.

"We are investing nearly £50m on road safety this year, the most
that has ever been invested, and this spring road safety
campaign is part of this work, using innovative approaches to
get messages across to road users about the need to take care on
London's roads," said Livingstone.

The other campaigns, following later in the month, will promote
cycling safety and responsible driving among young drivers.

"This campaign highlights specific behaviours that lead to high
incidences of collisions on London's roads involving vulnerable
road users," said David Brown, Transport for London's managing
director of surface transport.

"The campaign also targets young drivers by focusing on the
consequences of driving unlicensed or uninsured, speeding and
driving under the influence of drugs."

[END]

_._,_.___

[sAsLEX]

True but we have to remember we are dealing with TNZ and Dunjovin here and they see a small gap as WRB's I think maybe they need to RTFM on these things before engageing their tounges, while the brain is still in neutral



Maybe all we need is a case where someone who crashes into these barriers sue the contractor who installed them for doing so incorrectly...... then who would put them up?

[Hitcher]

One of life's "pleasures" involves an occasional trip to Auckland to truly appreciate how blessed we are to live somewhere else. Even Harare now has appeal.

On this latest traverse of the City Where New Zealand's Population Is The Most Dense, I was appalled at the extent of cheesecutter, particularly on what passes for the Waikato Expressway. Frightening. Particularly when combined with some suboptimal behaviour from cage drivers.

[DEATH_INC.]

Yep, the expressway is a fine example of not what to do...I had the pleasure of riding up there yesterday with some dick in a Previa trying to push his way past on my left, on a single lane. Pretty scary, I'd have just let 'em past but Draco was in front of me and I didn't want him pushing her into the cutters either....

[Blue Babe]

One of life's "pleasures" involves an occasional trip to Auckland to truly appreciate how blessed we are to live somewhere else. Even Harare now has appeal.
Just wondered if you have ever been to Harare?

[WelshWizard]

Just wondered if you have ever been to Harare?

Forget Harare, I know what he means, and personaly I would rather ride the Karoo without water than some of the road they have WRBed here in NZ,
And yes I have riden in the Karoo before so I know what its like when it get up to 50c + when you cross it.

[sAsLEX]

I made an interesting observation today, one which most in Auckland would see rather often.

One of the main reasons they claim concrete barriers are not used is that they are too wide and that WRB are more easily placed in areas with little room such as on single laned roads.


Well the Harbour Bridge uses its moving barrier, which is concrete, and this sits where the lane separating white line normally sits.


To wide my arse.

[WelshWizard]

update on the videos posted about earlier

RF Mc-Research

Transport for London's motorcycle safety video

I thought it was my computer's fault that the Guardian
video didn't work.
But it wasn't.
Sorry!

Here are URLs for a copy of the video that does still
work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xW-VAvQvSk&eurl=http://toutlebuzz.com/divers/give-motorcyclists-a-second-thought/
http://toutlebuzz.com/divers/give-motorcyclists-a-second-thought/

[TOTO]

When is the next Cheesecutter protest ride ????

I wanna do it. We should do one every week if you ask me. Once on saturday and next week on sunday. gotta get this thing going. Whats going on ?

When is the next protest ride ?

[WelshWizard]

When is the next Cheesecutter protest ride ????

I wanna do it. We should do one every week if you ask me. Once on saturday and next week on sunday. gotta get this thing going. Whats going on ?

When is the next protest ride ?

I think we need to get the guys and gals who orginised the other runs to get a prostest ride together again, but this time
why don't we go for a bigger format,

just an idea

for Auckland
Get riders to meet at Warkworth and ride down to Auckland andt riders to meet in Hamilton and ride up to Auckland to try and arrive at the same time at the Domian

For Wellington get people to meet up some where out east and at another point out west to arrive at a meeting point in Wellington at the same time

Some thing similar for Christchurch, but there would be meet North and West and south and West

Could do the same in Dunedin

main thing about the proposed run is

Same day , same time, and make the ride longer so more people will take notice, and any one with vans to have posters up on the sides with pictures of the carnage WRB's cause to Cars, Lorries and Motorcycles

Just a thought but any one up for it?

And any more ideas about how it should be done?

[henry]

I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately. In San Francisco (and other cities) the bicycle crowd do a thing called Critical Mass.

Basically a shit load of cyclists turn up and slowly ride through the city. They don't stop for anything and it fucks the city up for a couple of hours because of all the blocked intersections. They do it once a month.

Not sure we could get enough bikes out to cause major carnage, though judging by the number of bikes out on Sunday, maybe we could.

It would be worth a go though. Nothing like a traffic jams to get peoples attention.

[sunhuntin]

with enough warning, im up for pretty much any protest ride. id do wellington again in the blink of an eye.

id be a keen starter from wanganui to bring any from the naki down, meeting with riders from palmy/foxton or levin/otaki etc. not up to being lead rider or anything, but yeh. any from the naki who want to ride with me are more than welcome, same goes for any one else. im guessing taupo and surrounding might be heading north, or have another way to go south.

i can again put word out to the local triumph club that theres another ride, and i can maybe print off slips to hand out to local riders through work.

if anyone comes up with a date, let me know, and ill start another thread in the meetings and events appealing for nearby riders to join up.

[WelshWizard]

Cheers Sunhuntin, they main thing with any ride we now get going is unless it bigger and makes more impact than any before LTNZ will see it as a win for them as they will think the Motorcycle comunity is appathetic and any issue they have if the ignore it long enough it will go away.
So the more ideas on how to get this thing together and make it work big time the better.

[Quasievil]

Im In, nothing like civil disruption to get things working

[sunhuntin]

as evidenced by the taupo run, weekdays wont really get much attendance even though it would be better for getting attention [wellington motorway at rush hour, with a couple of thousand of us riding at the cheese cutter "safe" speed of say 50k or thereabouts. since 70k will see us lose a limb upon impact, any speed below that could be viewed as safe]

vans etc are also a good suggestion. what a truck with a freight container on the back covered with HUGE banners on the sides and back? maybe a truck cab with a loud speaker piping out [via a recording] the reason behind the ride. said truck could have red tape around the impact points. or maybe have a tow truck with a recently converted family car [could be done with a chain saw or something, since an actual cheese cut car might be hard to obtain] maybe have life sized dummies in the front seat colored red. could paint "this could be you" on the doors.

[WelshWizard]

as evidenced by the taupo run, weekdays wont really get much attendance even though it would be better for getting attention [wellington motorway at rush hour, with a couple of thousand of us riding at the cheese cutter "safe" speed of say 50k or thereabouts. since 70k will see us lose a limb upon impact, any speed below that could be viewed as safe]

vans etc are also a good suggestion. what a truck with a freight container on the back covered with HUGE banners on the sides and back? maybe a truck cab with a loud speaker piping out [via a recording] the reason behind the ride. said truck could have red tape around the impact points. or maybe have a tow truck with a recently converted family car [could be done with a chain saw or something, since an actual cheese cut car might be hard to obtain] maybe have life sized dummies in the front seat colored red. could paint "this could be you" on the doors.

Only thing with 50 is it means no motorway as min legal speed is 80, how ever not sure if there is a legal min on open roads other than motorways, one of the police riders who post on KB could easily answer that though, and I know that there are police motorcyclist out there who hate WRB's but can't do much about it as their hands are tied.

[Ixion]

Nope, no specific minimum speed on motorways. Not sure where this urban myth came from.

If you are too slow, cops can book you for inconsiderate driving and such like. But there's no minimum speed. otherwise half the population of Auckland would be breaking the law each day.

There *is* a provision for minimum speed limits in the rules, but no roads have ever been gazetted for a minimum speed. And even then there were exclusions covering "when the minimum would not be safe".

Which pretty much covers our situation. If the maximum safe speed on a given road is 50kph (and that's what Transit's National Safety Manager is saying, and whoa re we to argue with him? ), it would be unwise and even illegal to ride faster. Ride to the coniditons. When they change slow down. Right ?

[sunhuntin]

wellingtons coastal highway has a max posted speed of 80k. ixion... would a cop be able to book a group of several thousand for riding too slow? on rethinking, i think we need to strike BEFORE rush hour... i mean, lets face it, once rush hour starts, everything grinds to a standstill anyways. so if we start before that, we can make the stand still start earlier than normal. otherwise, wed just be a huge group of bikes unable to move while very quickly overheating our scoots.

[WelshWizard]

wellingtons coastal highway has a max posted speed of 80k. ixion... would a cop be able to book a group of several thousand for riding too slow? on rethinking, i think we need to strike BEFORE rush hour... i mean, lets face it, once rush hour starts, everything grinds to a standstill anyways. so if we start before that, we can make the stand still start earlier than normal. otherwise, wed just be a huge group of bikes unable to move while very quickly overheating our scoots.

Best on a Sat or Sunday more people not at work so as put forward by




I'm in for another run - sunday afternoon through a populated place with pillions dropping off phamphlets.

The cafe roads would be good.
seems logical to get more than just a ride in if we are handing out leaflets it may get more over to other road users if the leaflets target Car and van drivers ect

[Ixion]

wellingtons coastal highway has a max posted speed of 80k. ixion... would a cop be able to book a group of several thousand for riding too slow? on rethinking, i think we need to strike BEFORE rush hour... i mean, lets face it, once rush hour starts, everything grinds to a standstill anyways. so if we start before that, we can make the stand still start earlier than normal. otherwise, wed just be a huge group of bikes unable to move while very quickly overheating our scoots.

I doubt that a cop could issue tickets for riding at 50kph. And, in my obervation a LOT of traffic on the motorways only travels at 60-70 anyway.

But, a cop COULD instruct the group to leave the motorway forthwith. Or, if he got to you before entering the motorway, forbid you to enter it. So you'd need to get it done before they showed up . And that means a fair degree of secrecy as to time and place.

[sunhuntin]

I doubt that a cop could issue tickets for riding at 50kph. And, in my obervation a LOT of traffic on the motorways only travels at 60-70 anyway.

But, a cop COULD instruct the group to leave the motorway forthwith. Or, if he got to you before entering the motorway, forbid you to enter it. So you'd need to get it done before they showed up . And that means a fair degree of secrecy as to time and place.

ok... i wonder if we could somehow enlist their assistance? work with them instead of against. what about medics/ambos who have witnessed/cleaned up cheesecutter impacts? get them to speak about the effect the injuries and deaths have left on them?

[MSTRS]

The people who organised the first runs have been TOO QUIET. Where are they? And if they don't want to do it again, then why the hell don't they say so and/or pass the required info on to someone/s who will organise the next.
Don't get me wrong - I'm happy to work with anyone to assist, but short of doing one around Napier/Hastings...I can't be the prime mover for Auck/Welly/Chch.
And is someone going to answer the calls for where/when collection of signed petition forms????
Dammit - there has been enough of us asking.

[sunhuntin]

ill take the reins up for naki and south, encompassing palmy/levin etc and anyone else that wants to tag along. someone else will need to take up wellington and arrange a meeting place once we hit the area. right now, ive got an idea:

naki riders to meet at the bp just outside wangas [on the northern side]. ride to sanson and meet up with riders from palmy and surrounding, then on to levin or foxton and on to wellington/meeting point. any riders from inbetween places who want to slip in are more than welcome [ie, anyone from waikanae etc]
if riders from taupo/napier want to come, thats fine, of course. maybe napier could arrange with palmy to meet there and then ride to sanson, and taupo could either come down through wangas or waiouru.

times and dates are still up in the air until a decision has been made that will get the most participation.

again, due to lack of bike power, im not up to being lead rider, and would really prefer to be towards the back.

[MSTRS]

Organising getting there is not the issue tho...someone/s needs to organise the protest ride itself. That takes quite a bit of work, but also requires some liaising with local authorities etc, not to mention who is to be 'confronted' along the way and at the end. Those that did this before need to do it again or pass the info as to how etc on to someone else who wants to. It needs to be local - I can't arrange from Napier, for instance

[sunhuntin]

gotcha. ok... any takers?

[henry]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=109620850146692527535.00044acc0779d39505226&t=h&z=18

Ride this route from 4pm to 6pm on a Thursday evening. Ideally you would want enough bikes to block all four intersections simultaneously.

[yungatart]

My thoughts....
The ride needs to be really well co-ordinated, in that it needs to be at the same time in all locations (Akl, Welly, Chch). Would be better still if we could all turn up in one city, at a site where they are installing these things, maybe??
For maximum impact, provided we could get enough apathetic riders on board, it should happen on a week day at peak time.
Media must be on board..we need the publicity, so maybe civil disobedience to ensure media attention! We all know that bad news sell, right?
MPs should only be involved if we are using the ride to present the petition. (in other wordds, no ride to Parliament)
I think its a good idea to involve fire fighters, ambos and police if we could get their support. Also truckies, who, I understand, hate the bloody things too.

[Mom]

Im In, nothing like civil disruption to get things working

Cool! I am a starter too! Want to join forces and get a ride organised from up this way as has been suggested? You've been there, I could need some help.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

I wrote a long reply to this thread then deleted it. We need to organise something like Sunhuntin / Tart / MSTRS have commented on.


No more emotive stuff but hard hitting action. As MSTRS said we can’t do it from here. We can motivate riders from here. We have before but it is hard to do that when people here have never ridden between the WRB.

I am in full support but I will not go to Wellington with 10 bikes from here to see 25 bikes from around the lower North Island and ride in nice order at 95 kmh and not impact other people. Quiet equals no result. We need results.

It is dark early and cold and wet so we need to plan with that in mind. Bikes and civil disobedience in the dark on a wet night might hot work in our favour.

Thanks for the PM W/Wizard

[El Dopa]

No specific minimum speed on motorways.....maximum safe speed ......unwise and even illegal to ride faster. Ride to the conditions. When they change slow down. Right ?

When frog farmers want to protest, they get a bunch of tractors, lorries or similar, and drive at 10kmh in a rolling block across all the lanes of the motorways. traffic backs up behind them for miles.

A slow-rolling block of bikes along stretches of WRB highway, such as Auckland city going north (possibly backed up by cars to stop arseholes ramming us off the road) might focus attention.

Hey, we're just riding at a speed we consider to be safe for the conditions, right?

[WelshWizard]

Well I can understand what has happened to Gremlin
see his last post today on another thread, seems he is only on a work licence only:(
But maybe he can still post some advice



Well, having gone through the process myself now (ie, today) and coming out the other side still able to work, I guess I should note down my experience to help others.

First, meet your bible: Guide to applying for a limited licence (http://www.communitylaw.org.nz/fileadmin/documents/a_guide_to_applying_for_a_limited_licence..pdf). Now, instead of thanking me, thank Grahameeboy, as he was the one that provided it, not me.

Second, I've attached some template files (mmm can't upload .dot files, so they are .doc, you can change it back if you wish), mostly based on the pdf above, but hell, saves you typing it again - obviously you may need to alter it to your requirements, but its a starting point.

Third, my experiences (assuming all tips from document):

Do your best to gain the approval of the local prosecution services. Do this by asking the local plod shop for prosecution in your city/town. Find out how best to communicate (voice/in person can work wonders, if you can work your charm). They generally like post/drop off to main cop shop, fax for quick stuff, and may not check email much.
If you can come to an agreement with the cops, it turns court into pretty much a formality, as the police do not oppose your application. If they oppose your application, you're at the mercy of the judge, mine seemed a really good bloke, but it was rather entertaining to watch him rip into various people as he saw fit, and people be fantastically nice back :pinch:
Be nice to the desk people, they aren't making decisions, but they can make your life hell or a pleasure depending on how you behave to them. Its a stressful time (understatement) but they shouldn't be blamed. Niceties go a long way
My judge was quite amazed by my application, calling it comprehensive, and whether I had paid for the documentation, and where I had got it from. So, put in the hard yards, provide as much support documentation as possible. Also, you either speak for yourself, or have a lawyer... my dad seemed unable to speak on my behalf, with the judge saying something like, he didn't have a voice.
I was applying on the basis of "undue hardship" to my employer. I travel around the city 7 days a week, with long hours sorting issues. On this example, the police received copies of letters from some clients, stating their position on their requirements from us, my calendar from the last 6 weeks, affidavits from my boss and I (affidavit means he didn't have to show in court, and his statement had to be affirmed over a bible etc) and a map detailing the area I needed, with all locations I had to go to marked on it
They completely dislike 24 hour licenses, as then its not limiting, I was pushing shit up hill to get prosecution to consider 15 hour days, and cut it to 6 days a week, with two specific sundays (specific work)
Remember... they always look from the angle of you needing to be punished, while not punishing others... the limited license isn't a game
Do it right, and if you don't use a lawyer, you'll walk out with your order for LTNZ (ie, you take it to an LTNZ agent to get a limited license) and the whole process inc. app for limited license at AA will cost you less than $200 (court filing fee of $150 and $46.50 for AA)
Don't forget your damn proof of identity and address when you go to AA. You don't have a license to flash... nasty catch 22 that got me.:crybaby:


On the whole tho... I have an obvious statement... don't lose it in the first place... The time and stress trying to juggle it with work really got to me for a couple of weeks, and I still have to carry a log book of every trip, but on the bright side, I can do my work :niceone:

edit: If you have questions, ask away, its always in your best interest to know exactly how things work, to do things effectively.

[Ixion]

When frog farmers want to protest, they get a bunch of tractors, lorries or similar, and drive at 10kmh in a rolling block across all the lanes of the motorways. traffic backs up behind them for miles.

A slow-rolling block of bikes along stretches of WRB highway, such as Auckland city going north (possibly backed up by cars to stop arseholes ramming us off the road) might focus attention.

Hey, we're just riding at a speed we consider to be safe for the conditions, right?

Thing is, we don't really want to do something that pisses off Joe Public. Cos then he just thinks "Bloody bikie gangs, holding me up, causing trouble".

We need to piss off Transit, without pissing off the public.

Since Transit are a bunch of dudes at desks , getting in their face directly might not be easy.

But, Transit rely on contractors to build their roads and stuff. So if a bunch of bikers identified a site where work was taking place for Transit, and rolled up and basically brought things to a halt (if it was a project that was going to have WRBs that would be even cooler), that might grab press attention, and also, indirectly get to Transit (contractor says "Jobs stopped cos of all these bikes complaining about cheesecutters, do something about it").

Dunno if Transit would care or not about their contractors being stuffed up. I don't think (dunno for sure though) that Transit have any direct operational staff.

Not an awful lot they could do to you, call the cops who would tell you to bugger off, and could serve you with a trepass notice. But so long as it's peaceful and non aggro, I doubt the plod would want to get involved any further.

And of course, when commanded by the constabulary to disperse (with or without bluey) we do. And then another lot of bikes roll up to the next site . And disperse. Rinse lather repeat.

If Transit don't give a stuff about contractors being buggered around (and , yeah, I grant it's a shit thing to do to the contractor guys, not their fight, but y' can't make an omlette without breaking eggs. Collateral damage, sort of), then maybe an assembly ON the median area. There's some places where the median is wide and grassed . You could get quite a few bikes in there . Have a karakia (spelling ? a Maori prayer thing). That's cultural safety n all so the cops would be hesitant to barge in. And once again, when commanded to begone we do. And the next lot set up at the next suitable point.

Just thoughts these off the top of my head, someone care to add to them ?

[Katman]

At the risk of being battered senseless for entering this thread, I agree with Ixion that you don't want to get the public offside. It would do more harm for Motorcycling than good.

[Ixion]

Just had a thought. If anonymous and unknown persons , in dark of night, stuck up 50kph speed limit signs at the beginning of selected cheesecutter sections, then notifed the press about them (with explanation that they are just being concerned citizens because those WRBs are unsafe for anybody at over 50kph, and provide publicity material ) . But don't tell the press WHERE they are , just that they're out there. ?

Cheeky sort of thing that gets in the papers, no harm done to anyone , cheap and easy to do, put a Down with Cheescutters sign on the reverse of the 50kph round thing. Or perhaps a round 50kph bit at the top (like the real ones) and a stylised depiction of a cheesecutter on a separte board underneath. Like they do for other hazards.

Everyone wondering which ones are real and which ones anti cheesecutters. Joe Public isnt really upset (cos he probably ignores them anyway). Except Mrs Grundy and shes against us anyway.

Transit would have to organise to go round and inspect all the 50kph signs on motorways etc (yes there are 50kph signs. But we could make it other speeds to confuse a bit more) . That would irk them.

And as soon as the pull the fakes down, next night the mystery rabbit strikes again. And if it happened across the country, Transit would definately take notice.

EDIT And then to really confuse things, the anonymous rabbit could sneak out and fasten some of those stylised graphic cheescutter symbols underneath REAL 50kph signs.

Sends out the message "Cheesecutters are unsafe at anything more than 50kph." (Maybe 70kph instead of 50 ? Or mix them ? )

[Gixxer 4 ever]

At the risk of being battered senseless for entering this thread, I agree with Ixion that you don't want to get the public offside. It would do more harm for Motorcycling than good.

You think?

We did not interfered with the public at the last 3 rides and nothing happened. What do you recon we do Katman? I know other feel like this and if that is where this thread is going back to, we are going around in small circles. If that happens we may as well give up and get on with life.

So how do you think the last 3 rides went Katman? Was it worth the work to put them on?

[Kittyhawk]

Cheers for the link WelshWizard...

I think that something destructive needs to be done...A more serious protest...Maybe get the headhunters, or mungrel mob involved....

how about bikers slowing down traffic where wire ropes are? I know the main route from Akl to Hamilton they are all along there, and whats worse at a T intersection they are on both sides of the lane heading north! (cant remember which intersection) its not even a sharp corner, nor cliff drop.

Maybe block off queen st with bikes sitting at the lights not moving protesting...it needs to be more out there, or park on the foot paths and just let bikes idle...show people graphical images of accidents which happen with the barriers..

Have bikes at every intersection - down queen st holding up signs...

Or maybe get someone who knows someone to make a doco on cheese cutters and the dangers...

No matter what we do seems like nothing is working...Maybe we should look at holding town meetings and educate people that way, go into schools, and educate...

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Cheers for the link WelshWizard...

I think that something destructive needs to be done...A more serious protest...Maybe get the headhunters, or mungrel mob involved....

how about bikers slowing down traffic where wire ropes are? I know the main route from Akl to Hamilton they are all along there, and whats worse at a T intersection they are on both sides of the lane heading north! (cant remember which intersection) its not even a sharp corner, nor cliff drop.

Maybe block off queen st with bikes sitting at the lights not moving protesting...it needs to be more out there, or park on the foot paths and just let bikes idle...show people graphical images of accidents which happen with the barriers..

Have bikes at every intersection - down queen st holding up signs...

Or maybe get someone who knows someone to make a doco on cheese cutters and the dangers...

No matter what we do seems like nothing is working...Maybe we should look at holding town meetings and educate people that way, go into schools, and educate...


That’s the spirit. I would go to Auckland and do this with a group, rather than do what we did in Wellington at the last ride. Don’t get me wrong here Cola you did a great job in Wellington but it is time to crank it up a bit and what is said here holds some attraction.

But if most here don’t want to participate in civil disobedient action then so be it.

What is BRONZ doing?????????? FFS…..They told us to back off, They would do it Via the system. Well ????????

Try getting in to the Schools. They are run by the system. The same system that puts them WRB up.

[Kittyhawk]

That’s the spirit. I would go to Auckland and do this with a group, rather than do what we did in Wellington at the last ride. Don’t get me wrong here Cola you did a great job in Wellington but it is time to crank it up a bit and what is said here holds some attraction.

But if most here don’t want to participate in civil disobedient action then so be it.

What is BRONZ doing?????????? FFS…..They told us to back off, They would do it Via the system. Well ????????

Try getting in to the Schools. They are run by the system. The same system that puts them WRB up.

The protest here was good and we got the point across thanks to Quasi and co, but it wasnt enough.

Im thinking not so destructive, but more like dominance in society. People are scared of bikers, walking into a shopping mall and eyes are fixated on you...

If we did a couple of burnouts outside parliment that'd get media there, and cops etc...if ya going to protest do it right....maybe boobs on bikes could be a goer again lol!

Must be catching the media and public...educate, well adverts on radios tv stations, as for Bronze, I havent seen anything bout them helping here, so take it into our own hands to get it done right.

Maybe stop all cagers on on and off ramps on motorways, get them to sign petitions - DO NOT PASS till signed :yes:

[henry]

At the risk of being battered senseless for entering this thread, I agree with Ixion that you don't want to get the public offside. It would do more harm for Motorcycling than good.

We're not talking about blowing shit up or even breaking the law. Its about awareness which is sorely lacking. And seeing as Joe Public is more interested in what's happening on survivor than in their own back yard the only way to be noticed is to get in their face.

[McDuck]

I am in.......

[sunhuntin]

i cant guarantee id be able to attend auckland, but would do my best with enough notice given.

[yungatart]

Jam up the southern motorway at the begiining of the next holiday weekend. You would only need 100 bikes doing 50 kph across all lanes to gridlock it for hours. it would definitely get someone's attention.
I'm with G4E, we need to make a statement and we nned to be seen doing it!
No more "Mr Nice Guy" or we will continue to be shafted by Transit.

[Genestho]

Thanks WW for your headsup..

Most people work sat's nowdays too, last year on the BADD run we got 450 along, it was a sunday and we had fantastic weather. (After 11 weekends of shit) We decided Sunday because of the simple fact that everyone works saturdays round here.

Just my two cents as usual...its all simple stuff but...

Should you take your petition?

Do you have banners and/or signs. Information/stats/facts in easy to read/understand format?

For you to teach so people understand you need to remember that people learn in three different ways..
Visuals, listening, hands on.

To make an impact (for want of a better word) you need the numbers, Speech, Main Highways, publicity and info. Info is the key to show people what your aim is, you need to gather and arm yourselves with stats/info/photos.

Your petition is most important to your cause.
Do you have contacts within the Motorcycle Mags that can support you?

Once you have (is it 350.0000 signatures?) perhaps you could design your run around heading to Parliment with your signatures once you get to the needed figure?

Someone has suggested the emergency services imput, great idea.

Time, you need time to create the run with the impact and results your seeking.

You have a big team with big hearts. Wish you every success.:headbang:

[sunhuntin]

thank you, guzzi. you are right about the 3 types of learning. is it possible to dummy up a section of cheese cutter? like use barbed wire [with the barbs removed to avoid complaints] and posts on a trailer with a few fake body parts and fake blood everywhere? that would help with the hands on side of things.

[Genestho]

thank you, guzzi. you are right about the 3 types of learning. is it possible to dummy up a section of cheese cutter? like use barbed wire [with the barbs removed to avoid complaints] and posts on a trailer with a few fake body parts and fake blood everywhere? that would help with the hands on side of things.

Errr lol why not? If thats what you want people to see.. just depends what you want to get across? Its hard to be practical and non emotive with these things, but people are frightened of dealing with emotion. And I know this for a fact.
Think about what you want to achieve..

Just remembered the practical side of things...we called the local traffic managers and gave them the heads up, (not that we had the escorts in the end) and we had a lot of volunteers, it was only a small run tho and this year we will be getting organised well earlier (May)..for a bigger run.

I left the run side of things to the lads at Bayride and volunteers, and I took care of marketing, publicity, paperwork and organisation of the non run sides of things.

It takes a shitload of co-ordination and you really do need to be speaking the same language in your crew. Alot of communication right down to the last minute. The bigger the ride, the longer it takes, the more people you need in each section of the country to co-ordinate their route.

nuff said

[WelshWizard]

Not to up on Parl opening hours, pity we could not all converge on the Beehive and swamp it out with bikers, cars and lorries so the MP's could not get in with out have to pass through the protest


On another note
I seem to remeber that a bunch of medics were behind the calls for barriers in the first place and they wanted Concrete and were concerned about the dangers of the WRB's and Armco, any one know their name? as it might be worth trying to get them behind the protest.

[WelshWizard]

It would seem that the majority of the original Auckland orginisers are tied up with other things so it would seem we need to establish a new team, or aditional members to get these rides orginised.

So maybe those interested in helping out with the hard work of the orginising should put their names forward.

If any of the original team want to be involved please put your name up as well.

[Gixxer 4 ever]

It would seem that the majority of the original Auckland orginisers are tied up with other things so it would seem we need to establish a new team, or aditional members to get these rides orginised.

So maybe those interested in helping out with the hard work of the orginising should put their names forward.

If any of the original team want to be involved please put your name up as well.

I am sure MSTRS,TART Wasp27 and I can do the Hawkes Bay part of the ride. I am sure Tart can deliver a speech. She did a fantastic one for the Wellington and Taupo rides. Is that ok with you guys? Janet?

But we can’t do anything for the City end of the ride cos we don’t live there.

Hell we can even organise meeting places for other groups to meet up on the way to such an event.

Why don’t the people that organised the partition get it gathered up and we can deliver it to Parliament and do a slow ride to the beehive and make a stand?

[yungatart]

I am sure MSTRS,TART Wasp27 and I can do the Hawkes Bay part of the ride. I am sure Tart can deliver a speech. She did a fantastic one for the Wellington and Taupo rides. Is that ok with you guys? Janet?

But we can’t do anything for the City end of the ride cos we don’t live there.

Hell we can even organise meeting places for other groups to meet up on the way to such an event.

Why don’t the people that organised the partition get it gathered up and we can deliver it to Parliament and do a slow ride to the beehive and make a stand?

Gee thanks Steve.:love:
Count us in. We will do whatever we can at this end, but need a "big city" person to organise that end.
I would hate to see this campaign die, but have to say that it is very frustrating to see such small numbers of KBers committed to the cause.
Jeez, people we don't even have those nasty cheescutter things in the Bay. We're going to make dammed sure we don't get them either!

[sunhuntin]

considering they are going up in the naki, im surprised no members from there have stepped up.

come on, wellywoodians... anyone gonna help get things organised for your end???

[MSTRS]

Apathy rules.
The only thing that will get the masses off their collective lazy arses is...for someone else to get sliced'n'diced.
Any volunteers for that?

[MSTRS]

Apathy rules.
The only thing that will get the masses off their collective lazy arses is...for someone else to get sliced'n'diced.
Any volunteers for that?

Yeah...thought not

[Gixxer 4 ever]

Yeah...thought not

Like I said a while ago. Looks like that’s it then.

Time to forget this and get on with life. A shame but I am old enough to know that sometimes the things we chase and see as important just don’t count in the eyes of others. :(

Well done to everyone that made a stand and put in the time and effort with this.

[Jiminy]

Mmmmmmh, hope we haven't seen the last of it. To be honest, besides the protest ride, I have no idea of how the campaign is organised, who runs it and how. Anyone can help?

In the mean time, here is another idea. Not sure how good it is, so I put it out there for opinions.

Instead of local rides, we could have a big ride across the island, for example from Auckland to Wellington. The campaign flag would start from Auckland and be relayed across the island the whole day until it reaches the parliament. You would need a few volunteers to transport the flag for each section of road, and everyone could join the flag ride on the way for as long as they wish. The main issue would be to have enough bikers to populate the ride along the way.

What do you guys think?

[WelshWizard]

Why not start right up north and have bikes join as they pass through each town or city, If I can get time off work I would be in for that, but I would only be travelling at about 80 KPH as I have just blown up one bike and the next ones not yet run in.

[sunhuntin]

im in for that, no worries. [flag size dependant]

maybe start where the seal starts sth of reinga?

[WelshWizard]

Maybe as this run is likely to be a winter run all those who have cars or vans should use them instead of bikes,
1/
They take up more space on the motorway,
2/
We can have larger posters and flags on 4 wheels than two.
3/
It also get the message across that its not just Motorcyclist that are shouting about these things.
4/
Maybe other road uses will look a bit more closely at these WRB,s instead of just thinking its a bike only issue.

Any comments on this as an idea, as unless we plan the run 6 months ahead we will have a lot of summer only riders missing.

[sunhuntin]

good idea. flags can be risky on bikes.

[Zapf]

hi all.

Reading thru this I like what Ixion has proposed.... but discussion should move off a public site perhaps?

Regarding the people helping with the 1st protest, most of us have some personal issues / work that is stopping us from helping. I will do whatever I can to help.

I have setup a private email list previously. If you guys think that would be useful I can start that up again.

Do you think we can just piss off any road works? or CC installations?

[sunhuntin]

hi zapf... im up for whatever worked last time... hell, im up for anything! just something to get attention from those who ignore us.

[WelshWizard]

Hi Zapf, getting things into a private place would be good as then LTNZ and any Police that want to know whats going on will have to try and second guess, and then they can be wrong as much as they like.

[candor]

Has anyone put in OIA's to see what amount of risk is accepted from barrier types for bikers on various barrier projects past and going up?

The nswer would prolly be "request declined as the info does not exist" but it could be worth fishing by asking if Transit has ever costed putting on the barriers over the graters to reduce biker risk exposure on any stretch of existing WRBs.

A pointed question about say the worst wrb for bikers based on position and biker traffic volume and whether a covering has been considered or costed on that strip (once identified) might turn up some budget mindedness or else suggest a good idea to the decision makers - given each OIA question and answer is passed by the most senior bureaucrat if not Minister.

[Grub]

Does anyone have the addresss for the person collecting petiton forms? We jhave some more signed ones that we'd like to get into the central pool.

[Mom]

Does anyone have the addresss for the person collecting petiton forms? We jhave some more signed ones that we'd like to get into the central pool.

P O Box 105 005 Auckland City Post Shop, Auckland 1143

I am expecting the delivery of the signed forms to date in the next few days so I can begin to collate and count them. Wll be good to see how many we have collected and how many we may need to still get.

[MSTRS]

Great. I have close to 60 pages that have been gathering dust....

[Zapf]

I have setup a private email list previously.

Can those who are interested in moving the discussion to a more private location PM me with their email address and their name. I will add you to the list and also forward you the details of how to use it.

Cheers
Zapf

[Mom]

Ok all of you, I am about to start a campaign of questions to our illustrious leaders, and their associated opposition counterparts.

I have a few of my own mulling around in my brain at the moment.

Is there anything you would like to know? Post it up here and I will ask it of them*!


*Within reason of course, wont ask anything offensive :devil2:

[MSTRS]

I have searched Transit's website for something I read by them some time ago....but I can't find the reference.
It was stated categorically by Transit that they install per manufacturer's recommendations (yeah right), specifically they DO NOT USE I or H section posts.
These types of post are strung all along the Auckland motorway (north and south of the bridge).
Ask why it is that Transit tells lies.

[WelshWizard]

Just thought you might like to see how they protest on bikes in Wales, the run was for a protest against high fuel prices ,
but note the way they control the Motorway. see ysbytymike pics.
http://www.bikerwales.com/smf/index.php?topic=3607.75

not just one lane , the whole motorway is nder their control.

[boomer]

Just thought you might like to see how they protest on bikes in Wales, the run was for a protest against high fuel prices ,
but note the way they control the Motorway. see ysbytymike pics.
http://www.bikerwales.com/smf/index.php?topic=3607.75

not just one lane , the whole motorway is nder their control.

The jones's must've been furious they couldn't get to the pitt!!!!


;-)

[El Dopa]

Ok all of you, I am about to start a campaign of questions to our illustrious leaders, and their associated opposition counterparts.

I have a few of my own mulling around in my brain at the moment.

Is there anything you would like to know? Post it up here and I will ask it of them*!


*Within reason of course, wont ask anything offensive :devil2:

Transport minister Mr D states that he rides a bike (NZ Harold of Friday 27th June). What does he ride? Would he like to crash it into a WRB with himself on board?

He further states that WRB are a better alternative than going under the wheels of a truck coming the other way. A WRB is always there. Does Mr D think there will always be a truck coming the other way?

[Blue Babe]

Great Job Guy's. I heard it all over the news today. Well over 7000 signatures sent in... Well done, Now lets hope something is done about them.

[Zapf]

He further states that WRB are a better alternative than going under the wheels of a truck coming the other way. A WRB is always there. Does Mr D think there will always be a truck coming the other way?

WRB's do NOT stop trucks. Its a FACT.

[gunrunner]

It just goes to show those politicans in Welly dont ride and are still getting driven round in their limos (and at speed too eh Helen )

[Nikolai_V]

Ok all of you, I am about to start a campaign of questions to our illustrious leaders, and their associated opposition counterparts.

I have a few of my own mulling around in my brain at the moment.

Is there anything you would like to know? Post it up here and I will ask it of them*!


*Within reason of course, wont ask anything offensive :devil2:

How many motorcyclists have died on the roads between the start of your anti-Brifen campaign, as a result of:
Disobedience of the road rules
Inappropriate / Excessive speed
Riding under the influence of alcohol / drugs?

Contrast this with how many have died as a result of hitting Brifen? Numbers would be nice...

P.S I know the answers to these questions, and I imagine a few of you would revisit your priorities if you were aware just how many accidents were due to blatant disregard for a) the law (both of physics and the land) and b) the people left behind.

There are bigger issues for motorcyclists to be getting up in arms about, which actually would save lives (of motorcyclists as most in here don`t rate the lives of other motorists)

[Ixion]

Your question is irrelevant.

I do not (within the context of this campaign) care about other motorcyclists. I care about me.

I do not ride in such a fashion that I am unduely worried about being killed as a result of
Disobedience of the road rules
Inappropriate / Excessive speed
or Riding under the influence of alcohol / drugs?

I do however worry about me being killed by a cheesecutter. So I will protest about them.

In fact that is the nub of the objection to cheesecutters: that they will kill perfectly law abiding motorcyclists.

[Mom]

How many motorcyclists have died on the roads between the start of your anti-Brifen campaign, as a result of:
Disobedience of the road rules
Inappropriate / Excessive speed
Riding under the influence of alcohol / drugs?

Contrast this with how many have died as a result of hitting Brifen? Numbers would be nice...

P.S I know the answers to these questions, and I imagine a few of you would revisit your priorities if you were aware just how many accidents were due to blatant disregard for a) the law (both of physics and the land) and b) the people left behind.

There are bigger issues for motorcyclists to be getting up in arms about, which actually would save lives (of motorcyclists as most in here don`t rate the lives of other motorists)


What an interesting post. Imagine you calling this an "anti-Brifen campaign" ! What makes you call it that may I ask? As it is not barrier design centred at all.

For the second time today I will paste the wording of our petition for everyones information.

We, the undersigned, are concerned about the safety of wire traffic barriers and their increasing presence on New Zealand roads and highways. We urge Transit New Zealand, Land Transport New Zealand and the Ministry of Transport to place a moratorium on the use of such barriers until a comprehensive review is undertaken into the effectiveness and safety of wire traffic barriers to all road users, particularly motorcyclists.

Where in that does it mention Brifen barriers? I know a small bit about them too FWIW. What we are asking is that no more WRMB's (cheesecutters) get installed untill a complete review is carried out.

I am genuinely interested in your comments too, so please dont think I am being sarcastic.

[MSTRS]

And how many have died through no fault of their own? The sensible 'we' do what we can, and the law is there to catch individuals breaking it. We will continue with our efforts to make life safer for motorcyclists and you won't stop us.

[El Dopa]

WRB's do NOT stop trucks. Its a FACT.

It was more the implication by Harry D that there would always be a truck coming the other way, and a bike/rider in trouble and sliding across the centre line would always end up under its wheels if good ol' transit hadn't taken the trouble to stick a WRB there to help us out.

Clearly, if there's a barrier there, the bike and rider will slide into it. On the other hand, there may not (and in fact probably won't) be a truck coming the other way. Therefore, if the barrier isn't there, you slide into the ditch on the opposite side of the road instead.

Of the three options (barrier/truck/ditch), I prefer 'none of them'. But the ditch sounds like the least bad option.

[Nikolai_V]

What an interesting post. Imagine you calling this an "anti-Brifen campaign" ! What makes you call it that may I ask? As it is not barrier design centred at all.

For the second time today I will paste the wording of our petition for everyones information.

We, the undersigned, are concerned about the safety of wire traffic barriers and their increasing presence on New Zealand roads and highways. We urge Transit New Zealand, Land Transport New Zealand and the Ministry of Transport to place a moratorium on the use of such barriers until a comprehensive review is undertaken into the effectiveness and safety of wire traffic barriers to all road users, particularly motorcyclists.

Where in that does it mention Brifen barriers? I know a small bit about them too FWIW. What we are asking is that no more WRMB's (cheesecutters) get installed untill a complete review is carried out.

I am genuinely interested in your comments too, so please dont think I am being sarcastic.

Not a problem. When the first Brifen (WRSB for non industry people) were installed years and years ago, the question of their safety was looked at, and an international literature search done. Based upon this, the thicker (Brifen) type was adopted, as it was acknowleged that the wire rope, the 'cheesecutter" part if you insist on calling in that, was not really a hazard, rather it was the posts that any non-concrete barrier system require that would harm errant motorcyclists.

It was also acknowleged that the thicker cables were safer than the thinner ones installed in Europe.

I think that putting a moratorium on the installation of new brifen would cost far more lives than would ever be taken by their being installed. The research has been done, its available, and in my opinion (not that of Transit, LTNZ or the MOT) a moratorium is indefensible.

I feel that the motorcycling community would be better served by its representatives if they were campaiging for tougher licensing standards, realistic learner laws, and engaging in some social engineering to lower the apalling death rate among motorcyclists, which is predominantly due to the factors listed above.

While it may be nice for some riders to nurture the us and them mentality seen in this post, the truth is that mainstream acceptance of motorcycling is at least partially prevented by the actual and percieved risk of dying on a motorcycle. The perpetuation of that myth in the media in the name of the anticheesecutter campaign is counterproductive.

Given the huge number of people still around today due to the wrsb installations around the place, I`m not seeing a huge public buy-in to the campaign. As I said far more people are still around today because of them than have been injured/killed (and for the record all barriers have the potential to kill and maim - they`re only installed where hitting the barrier is better than whatever its protecting). I cant speak for all roading / transportation people and wouldn`t presume to, but I can say that the risks of any barrier installation are considered in the planning stage, alternatives are weighed up and the most appropriae treatment selected.

Common sense dictates that if concrete barriers were the be-all and end all that they`d be everywhere - strangely they are not. They have their own special issues with regard to being struck by motorists.

I dont expect to change anyones mind, i`m not that naive - just thought i`d put my 2c in.

[Nikolai_V]

Your question is irrelevant.

I do not (within the context of this campaign) care about other motorcyclists. I care about me.

I do not ride in such a fashion that I am unduely worried about being killed as a result of
Disobedience of the road rules
Inappropriate / Excessive speed
or Riding under the influence of alcohol / drugs?

I do however worry about me being killed by a cheesecutter. So I will protest about them.

In fact that is the nub of the objection to cheesecutters: that they will kill perfectly law abiding motorcyclists.

And save motorists, law abiding or otherwise...

Shall we replace them with W-section or Thrie beam (Armco) as these also have posts which will kill / maim you? Or let you slide over the cliff that the barrier is protecting you from? Into head-on traffic? I mean it`s your choice to do all those things...

More likely to kill you (statistically speaking) are crashing due to excessive speed on a corner, dangerous overtaking, riding while impaired. I ride - the barriers dont concern me in the slightest - no more than all the other roadside hazards that you conveniently ignore.

Your concern for your fellow motorists is touching.

[DEATH_INC.]

These barriers can kill/maim anyone. Bad riding generally only harms those doing it. OK?
Are you suggesting we give up and take whatever shit the cheapest roading contractor puts on our roads?
Your armco concerns are also noted, it is these that they are retrofitting the 'mototub' to...

[DEATH_INC.]

I do have a question for YOU....can you tell me how many people have been killed by concrete barriers? (serious question, not winding you up)

[Mom]

Not a problem. When the first Brifen (WRSB for non industry people) were installed years and years ago, the question of their safety was looked at, and an international literature search done. Based upon this, the thicker (Brifen) type was adopted, as it was acknowleged that the wire rope, the 'cheesecutter" part if you insist on calling in that, was not really a hazard, rather it was the posts that any non-concrete barrier system require that would harm errant motorcyclists.

It was also acknowleged that the thicker cables were safer than the thinner ones installed in Europe.

Common sense dictates that if concrete barriers were the be-all and end all that they`d be everywhere - strangely they are not. They have their own special issues with regard to being struck by motorists.

I dont expect to change anyones mind, i`m not that naive - just thought i`d put my 2c in.


If you are going to use jargon, can you please expand it so us non industry types know what you are on about. I assume WRSB means Wire Rope Saftey Barrier?

Sorry for cutting your quote short, but I did not want to take any more server space than I needed to. Your answer is informative and very interesting. How then do you answer the following.

Harry Dynhoven was asked this question last year:

"3/. How many kms, if any, of Brifen safety barriers are currently in place on NZs road network?"

His answer,

"3. Brifen is a proprietary name for a wire rope barrier system used on state highways. There are a number of other systems in use including Safefence, and public domain systems. TNZ advise me that there is at present 127kms of Brifen brand wire rope barriers installed on NZs state highway network"

So officially we have just 127kms of Brifen barriers on NZ State Higways.

I am currently awaiting his answer to how many actual kms of "other" types of WRMB's (Wire Rope Median Barriers) there are.

You have not answered my question though. Why did you specify the Brifen type barrier in your questions?

[Ixion]

And save motorists, law abiding or otherwise...

Shall we replace them with W-section or Thrie beam (Armco) as these also have posts which will kill / maim you? Or let you slide over the cliff that the barrier is protecting you from? Into head-on traffic? I mean it`s your choice to do all those things...

More likely to kill you (statistically speaking) are crashing due to excessive speed on a corner, dangerous overtaking, riding while impaired. I ride - the barriers dont concern me in the slightest - no more than all the other roadside hazards that you conveniently ignore.

Your concern for your fellow motorists is touching.

The other types of barrier are nasty. But their design is not as nasty as the cheesecutter, which not only adds its own specialty, the guillotine ropes, but also is designed so that it will directly steer a motorcycle straight into the posts. The other type you slide along

I'd obviously prefer none at all. What sort of stupid question is that ?

Going over a cliff is survivable. The cheesecutter is not. And in 50 years riding I have encountered a potential head on a total of three times . In every case it was easy enough to avoid.

As to those things more like to kill me, statistically they may. But I make it my business to ride in such a way that I do not overtake dangerously , or ride impaired or at excessive speed, I trust they will not. At any rate , that is down to me. I can control it.

The cheesecutter is NOT down to me, and I cannot control it. To hit it (whether as a result of mechanical failure such as a tyre burst, or from being pushed into it) is certain , horrible death.

Nothing else on the roads is as certainly deadly as the cheesecutter.

[Mom]

P.S I know the answers to these questions...


Broken quote I agree, but while you are thinking up an answer as to why you specifically named Brifen as the barrier we are protesting about, which we are not in any way, shape or form, can you please explain to us what the difference between them (Brifen) and other Wire Rope Barriers are?

[Nikolai_V]

Broken quote I agree, but while you are thinking up an answer as to why you specifically named Brifen as the barrier we are protesting about, which we are not in any way, shape or form, can you please explain to us what the difference between them (Brifen) and other Wire Rope Barriers are?

For the purposes of your campaign, none really. The principle is the same, just differences in terminal (anchor blocks) and wire thickness. Spacing of posts may vary, but its still a barrier - it has to stop vehicles, which it does well.

It is generally used as a reference to the WRSB (colloqially), in formal correspondance its WRSB or similar. No slight was intended to the Brifen company, as you may have guessed from my comments.

[Nikolai_V]

The other types of barrier are nasty. But their design is not as nasty as the cheesecutter, which not only adds its own specialty, the guillotine ropes, but also is designed so that it will directly steer a motorcycle straight into the posts. The other type you slide along

I'd obviously prefer none at all. What sort of stupid question is that ?

Going over a cliff is survivable. The cheesecutter is not. And in 50 years riding I have encountered a potential head on a total of three times . In every case it was easy enough to avoid.

As to those things more like to kill me, statistically they may. But I make it my business to ride in such a way that I do not overtake dangerously , or ride impaired or at excessive speed, I trust they will not. At any rate , that is down to me. I can control it.

The cheesecutter is NOT down to me, and I cannot control it. To hit it (whether as a result of mechanical failure such as a tyre burst, or from being pushed into it) is certain , horrible death.

Nothing else on the roads is as certainly deadly as the cheesecutter.

Interestingly enough, earlier this year a motorcyclist went safely over the to pof a WRSB in Otago - I think it was on SH6... Havent got teh article on me, but it was in the ODT.

Not quite certain death, but then again, losing control of your bike on the Devils Staircase (SH6 between Kingston and Queenstown) and plunging into lake wakitipu would certainly kill you... Id take the barrier myself.


heres a devils advocate question for you - and remember I ride as well...

If motorcycles are fundamentally incompatible with infrastructure designed to keep other motorists safe, and providing for their safety would have to be at the expense of all other road users (which would be a valid conclusion given the commenst on here) - why dont we ban them? I mean they`re not nessecary to teh functioning of the economy - dont carry goods or generate GDP - they just cost the citizen in ACC claims.

as outlandish and provocative as that statement was, I`ll bet you dollars to donuts that I could get 7000 signitures on a petition to that effect (as many as the cheese-cutter campaign).

[MSTRS]

....
as outlandish and provocative as that statement was, I`ll bet you dollars to donuts that I could get 7000 signitures on a petition to that effect (as many as the cheese-cutter campaign).

And I will guarantee you that if we manage to find the finances to take this nationally in a media-carried campaign, rather than talking to people one-on-one, that we will get enough people to see the fatal flaws in the WR(un)SB that you and your precious 'statistical' evidence would cease to have any relevance.

[Nikolai_V]

I do have a question for YOU....can you tell me how many people have been killed by concrete barriers? (serious question, not winding you up)

In the 5 year period 2003-2007 (inclusive) 2 riders were killed as a result of a collision with a guardrail - one WRSB which i`m sure everyone in this thread is aware of, and one with a W section (armco). During this period, 32 other riders were killed as a result of hitting other roadside objects (ditches, trees, banks, going over cliffs), and a total of 174 were killed on the roads in NZ.

I`ve looked at the crash reports of some of the fatals, and stand by my statements - the best way to save the lives of motorcyclists is to adopt a culture which doesnt promote excessive speed, and denies inexperienced motorcyclists vehicles they cannot handle. Common themes are repeated in teh reports, excessive speed, failure to take corner, lost control while turning.

Its nice to have an exterior factor to blame for this carnage, but the truth of the matter is that motorcyclists kill far more motorcyclists than any other factor, be it vehicle or environment.

Every death is tragic, I just feel a sense of proportion is called for here. There havent been any petitions circulated to stop motorcyclists speeding or riding beyond their abilities, but any actions in this direction would save a huge number of lives.

As for concrete vs WRSB vs Armco - the low number of deaths make it pretty iffy drawing any conclusions about their relative merits, especially given that concrete is typically used as median and side rail in motorway situations where crash rates are lower anyway, whilst the other types are found on local roads, typically in black spot locations or corners.

Lookng at stats for all road users, in terms of fatal crashes and object struck, only 5% of MC fatals involve Guard rail, as opposed to 50% for other vehicle types - obviously this is only looking at a small proportion of all crashes though, but it raises some interesting points. It would seem that GR is actually more dangerous for drivers than riders, given the numbers.

Of course these ignore all the non-injury and minor/serious injury crashes which were made less severe by the action of the rail.

As i`ve said, i`m not trying to convince anyone of anything, I just think that the big picture view is worth considering. Maybe we should as riders be asking ourselves why, when say 35 of us are getting killed each year on the roads, we are focussing all our attention onto 5%?

[MSTRS]

There havent been any petitions circulated to stop motorcyclists speeding or riding beyond their abilities, but any actions in this direction would save a huge number of lives.
Personal responsibility? And the laws pertaining to operating a vehicle?
Step outside those, and the stepper is asking for some form of trouble for sure.


As for concrete vs WRSB vs Armco - the low number of deaths make it pretty iffy drawing any conclusions about their relative merits, especially given that concrete is typically used as median and side rail in motorway situations where crash rates are lower anyway, whilst the other types are found on local roads, typically in black spot locations or corners.
True. In NZ the sample is small...but there's a whole world out there that have gone through what we are. There is a reason that some countries have opted to replace or retrofit barriers to make them more biker friendly.



Lookng at stats for all road users, in terms of fatal crashes and object struck, only 5% of MC fatals involve Guard rail, as opposed to 50% for other vehicle types - obviously this is only looking at a small proportion of all crashes though, but it raises some interesting points. It would seem that GR is actually more dangerous for drivers than riders, given the numbers.

All this 'proves' is that motorcyclists very rarely hit a median barrier?? Perhaps we pay more attention to what we are doing?

I hear what you are trying say, BUT, and it is a big but, a barrier that is effectively a row of vertical knives, joined by a steel cable to ensure there is no passing between the blades, is never going to be safe for any motorcyclist that hits it for any reason.

[sunhuntin]

:no: oh ffs, katman in disguise.

ok, how many riders have died, in the years you state, due to accidents not caused by them? how many were rear ended, cut off, under passed and forced into the wrong lanes? how many of those were l plate riders, still getting their head around things, who were tail gated and forced into a situation they werent prepared for? do your stats include scooter riders?

im not saying every rider is fault free, cos thats damn impossible, but, trying to say every accident is the fault of the rider is also bullshit.

btw, ive ridden SH6, and its as safe as any other road down there. id actually state the road to cardrona is more tricky, specially the start of it with the switch backs. and id say the road from wanganui to national park is worse still.

[Katman]

I'm afraid that post is filled with way too much logic Nikolai. This lot don't do logic.

[MSTRS]

I'm afraid that post is filled with way too much logic Nikolai. This lot don't do logic.

Not your kind of logic anyway

[imdying]

I hear what you are trying say, BUT, and it is a big but, a barrier that is effectively a row of vertical knives, joined by a steel cable to ensure there is no passing between the blades, is never going to be safe for any motorcyclist that hits it for any reason.In that case, a power pole is effectively like a big base ball bat... no passing through that, only a 100km/h swing through...

I like the amount of effort that goes into the WRB campaign, but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't, seems that all that effort would be better directed at things that are actually known to have a history of killing and/or maiming bikes in NZ.

[MSTRS]

In that case, a power pole is effectively like a big base ball bat... no passing through that, only a 100km/h swing through...

I like the amount of effort that goes into the WRB campaign, but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't, seems that all that effort would be better directed at things that are actually known to have a history of killing and/or maiming bikes in NZ.

Total garbage. And offensive too.
True that a pole is a giant bat, but...
Power pole - 100m - power pole - 100m - power pole...repeat. Plenty of space between and no cables to stop/redirect 'you'.
WRB post - 1.5/3.5m - post - 1.5/3.5m - post...repeat. Tiny gap and a cable to deny access AND redirect 'you' into a post.
And you were there on the night Daniel died? So you know with your own eyes what happened?

[sunhuntin]

In that case, a power pole is effectively like a big base ball bat... no passing through that, only a 100km/h swing through...

I like the amount of effort that goes into the WRB campaign, but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't, seems that all that effort would be better directed at things that are actually known to have a history of killing and/or maiming bikes in NZ.

thats bloody low and uncalled for. get your facts from those that were there at the time, not what the cops and media claim :Oi:

as far as comparing power poles to cheese cutters, thats bull. ive never seen power poles placed at close intervals down the middle of a motorway. nor are they placed at regular intervals along open roads. at junctions, yes. but not all along the road. plus, at night, you can generally see power poles. most cheese cutters have no reflectors what so ever. and, with a power pole, theres only one you have to try and avoid, and you have a high chance of not hitting it.

[imdying]

Power pole - 100m - power pole - 100m - power pole...repeat.And yet we still hit them... bit like bridge sidings.... not one for 10km, then whack, you just rode into one. Oops. Every 100m is small comfort given their unforgiving nature.


with a power pole, theres only one you have to try and avoid, and you have a high chance of not hitting it.Good luck in the big wide world of target fixation... heck a TF campaign would save actual lives amongst the motorcycles of NZ imho. Tangible results, them I like :yes:

[MSTRS]

Don't get me wrong...I know bikers die from hitting poles etc. But there is a greater chance of not hitting one, if 'you' leave the road that is taken away by the existence of a WRB

[sunhuntin]

Good luck in the big wide world of target fixation... heck a TF campaign would save actual lives amongst the motorcycles of NZ imho. Tangible results, them I like :yes:

id think many would have the sense to fix their target somewhere to the side of a pole. cheesecutters dont give that option. id say if target fixation was a problem, many hundreds more would be dead.

[MSTRS]

id think many would have the sense to fix their target somewhere to the side of a pole. cheesecutters dont give that option. id say if target fixation was a problem, many hundreds more would be dead.

Oh TF is a big problem. He's right about that. It comes into being through the panic of being out of control of your machine.
Remember the phrase 'Look where you are going, cos you will go where you are looking" ??

[imdying]

id think many would have the sense to fix their target somewhere to the side of a pole. cheesecutters dont give that option. id say if target fixation was a problem, many hundreds more would be dead.I'd go out on a limb and say that a couple must surely die from TF every year... an otherwise avoidable car, maybe a power pole, something solid that they could have otherwise avoided life. If you consider every life to be precious, then those are actual lives that would have been saved every year. Getting the WRBs covered would be nice, but seems less important than ramming the notion of better rider training down the throat of the LTSA (or whoever looks after that sort of stuff). I'd bitch and moan as loud as everyone else if I had to sit a practical when I renew my bike license, but I'd still believe in the back of my mind that someone somewhere would live through their next 'moment' as a result... heck, might even be me!

/edit: It's just the effort to gains ratio for WRBs seems to be a little out of kilter given the other known killers we face :/

[sunhuntin]

cant and wont speak for everyone, but personally, id be dead ten times over by now, but for remembering what mstrs posted up. as a result, i force my eyes in a different direction, and as such, stay alive. its not actually that hard.

and as for most other killers on the road, mostly you can do something, anything, to avoid it. if you get rear ended and shunted into a cheese cutter, there aint no way in hell you are going to walk away, target fixation or not.

and your comment on rider training, i do agree in part. there needs to be better training and testing for skills such as emergency stopping. and not from a pissy 20k either, but from real world speeds. dont stop properly? dont pass.

[Katman]

get your facts from those that were there at the time, not what the cops and media claim

What makes you think those that were there at the time are giving you the facts?

[Dakara]

What makes you think those that were there at the time are giving you the facts?

What makes you think they aren't?

To pass negative comments on a fatal accident in which you don't know anything about outside of the media/hearsay is just plain ignorant. People lie and the media exaggerates, so unless someone witnessed it with their own eyes they're just talking shit.

[MSTRS]

What makes you think they aren't?

To pass negative comments on a fatal accident in which you don't know anything about outside of the media/hearsay is just plain ignorant. People lie and the media exaggerates, so unless someone witnessed it with their own eyes they're just talking shit.

Anyone whose head is not intimately acquainted with his arse can understand that.

[Katman]

What makes you think they aren't?



We were given a brain for many reasons.

I'm using mine.

[MSTRS]

No you're not. Except insofaras you are espousing a theory based on your prejudices. Which takes little or no brain function to achieve.

[Katman]

No you're not. Except insofaras you are espousing a theory based on your prejudices. Which takes little or no brain function to achieve.

I have no prejudices.

If they haven't been mysteriously removed careful searching will turn up a number of threads containing reference to Daniel's ability to pull 160kph wheel stands that he could hold up forever. On the night in question his frame broke in two and I figure there's a damn good chance that that happened from landing a wheelstand.

[Dakara]

We were given a brain for many reasons.

I'm using mine.

To assume someone is lying as it's the stereotypical response to an accident is rather close-minded.

I'm not saying they were telling the truth, I have no clue. But I can imagine you wouldn't be too happy if you found yourself in an accident, not at fault, but had the blame put on you under the assumption that because your a biker you must of been fucking around.

But back on topic.

All the previous posts about statistics really are a crock. The great thing about statistics is you can manipulate them to show whatever you want depending on how they are presented.

"Far more Bikers are killed from ignoring the law, blah blah blah"

Of course, we all know that. What you need to do is look at the relevant statistics. Don't compare # of Cheesecutter deaths to Concrete barriers. That's a Biased sample, as there are different quantities, in differen't areas/locations. What you need to look at is the mortality rate, or casualty rate of each.

Take the number of bikers to hit a concrete barrier over say a 5 year period.

How many of them died?

How many of those deaths were a result of hitting the barrier? And put that into a percentage.

So X% of bikers to hit a concrete barrier died as a direct result of hitting the barrier

Then do the same for the cheesecutter barriers (Y%) (and others)

Then compare X and Y. (very simplistic overview, but I gave up Stats after Bursary :zzzz:)

There's a famous quote most people should know, (I forget who said it). If one person dies it's a tragedy, if 1,000,000 people die it's a statistic. The point in the Cheesecutter campaign is to avoid further tragedies, thus creating another statistic.

[MSTRS]

I have no prejudices.

If they haven't been mysteriously removed careful searching will turn up a number of threads containing reference to Daniel's ability to pull 160kph wheel stands that he could hold up forever. On the night in question his frame broke in two and I figure there's a damn good chance that that happened from landing a wheelstand.

R-i-g-h-t.....
As for the rest, perhaps he was known for wheelies. Doesn't mean he was landing one at the time of his accident. We also don't know that the frame broke...just that his father has said from what he saw of the wreck that it was most likely.
Again...anyone who wasn't there doesn't know anything for sure. Even Zapf didn't see, and he was there. (was in front as I understand, so only become aware of no light following)

[Nikolai_V]

Nice to see some reasoned debate... With regard to the target fixation issue, its worth noting that of the 34 rider deaths attributable to "struck object" only 2 were barriers (there was a bridge death which i discounted), meaning the remainder were (and i`m looking at a printout from CAS as i type) Parked vehicles (3), Ditches (6), Traffic Islands (3), Fences (9), Over bank (2), Traffic Signs (1), Posts / Poles (5), Trains (1), Bridges (1) or other. The numbers might not add up as a) i`m in a hurry and b) there are often more than one object struck.

TF is a very real issue, unlike others, and yes training in this area would save lives. As roading engineers we activley persue clear-zoning (removing hazards from the road sides to provide a safe recoverable zone). Where this cannot be achieved, barriers are typically installed. This is in line with international best practise.

I`m not going to comment on the causes of crashes beyond what has been said already - road deaths are a highly emotive topic, and I don`t see any merit in speculation regarding driver behaviour post-accidnent in this forum.

I have seen the police crash reports and witness statements for many, many fatal accidents (and have signed appropriate confidentiality agreements to do so), and it is not atypical for witness statements to differ from the truth. As an engineer, it is possible to arrive at a reasonable conclusion from examining the site, photos and diagrams.


ok, how many riders have died, in the years you state, due to accidents not caused by them? how many were rear ended, cut off, under passed and forced into the wrong lanes? how many of those were l plate riders, still getting their head around things, who were tail gated and forced into a situation they werent prepared for? do your stats include scooter riders?

The generally accepted figure for multi-vehicle accidents for motorcyclists is 50:50, in terms of fault. However a hell of a lot of MC crashes are single vehicle loss of control which are generally all the riders fault. (I can check this in CAS, but i`m fairly certain on this). And no scooters (mopeds in teh eyes of the law) are not included but as they shouldn`t be on open roads where barrier systems are generally found I cant imagine they`d figure in stats. I`d hazard an educated guess that they`d be overrepresented in multi-vehicle collisions, through their greater exposure to traffic, (typically) less experienced riders and lower visibility.


im not saying every rider is fault free, cos thats damn impossible, but, trying to say every accident is the fault of the rider is also bullshit.

I didnt say that, but motorcyclists do have more crashes as a result of breaching traffic regulations (i.e. speed limits) than other vehicle types - from this you could safely conclude that motorcyclists are generally less risk adverse than other motorists, and accordingly die in greater numbers...


btw, ive ridden SH6, and its as safe as any other road down there. id actually state the road to cardrona is more tricky, specially the start of it with the switch backs. and id say the road from wanganui to national park is worse still.

Not being patronising (well a little bit), but i`m glad that in your laymans eyes SH6 is safe. The road to cardrona? I`m guessing you mean the crown range road which isnt a State highway, and is built to a lower standard (has a much higher crash rate too).

I`m not sure what that comparison is meant to show? I know that QLDC have less money availabe for safety than Transit - If they had the oppurtunity there`d be barriers for africa on the first section (which incidentally is being widened at present), much like at the stretch from the gate to the summit.

[Mom]

Good luck in the big wide world of target fixation... heck a TF campaign would save actual lives amongst the motorcycles of NZ imho. Tangible results, them I like :yes:


I like this idea very much, sadly no time to do anything about it at the moment. PM Ixion for the address for BRONZ. This is right up their alley, bringing safety issues to people that count. They have all the contacts. Write to BRONZ and ask them to put a case to ACC to work up a campaign on target fixation for delivering to the people.

I am not being sarcastic here either, Ixion is your man to start this safety ball rolling. Good call!

[RiderInBlack]

IMHO Any Safety Barrier put there for the safety of road users should do just that. It does not matter whether the road user was following the rules of the road or not, if it is put there to increase safety it should. It should not increase the risk of fataliy or serious injury. IMHO the wire barriers do, especial for motorcyclist. End of story. They need to be replaced with better designed barriers that are made taking all road users in mind. IMHO this goes for any safety barrier.

[Dakara]

IMHO Any Safety Barrier put there for the safety of road users should do just that. It does not matter whether the road user was following the rules of the road or not, if it is put there to increase safety it should. It should not increase the risk of fataliy or serious injury. IMHO the wire barriers do, especial for motorcyclist. End of story. They need to be replaced with better designed barriers that are made taking all road users in mind. IMHO this goes for any safety barrier.

Not only for bikes....

I'm sure everyone has seen this, but a reminder from Cheesecutter.co.nz
http://cheesecutter.co.nz/images/CheeseCutterFalcon.jpg

[Nikolai_V]

To assume someone is lying as it's the stereotypical response to an accident is rather close-minded.

I'm not saying they were telling the truth, I have no clue. But I can imagine you wouldn't be too happy if you found yourself in an accident, not at fault, but had the blame put on you under the assumption that because your a biker you must of been fucking around.

I certainly didnt try and put any blame on anyone in THAT crash, in fact I`ve studiously avoided commenting on it, and I am have seen a lot of the information pertaining to it...

But back on topic.


All the previous posts about statistics really are a crock. The great thing about statistics is you can manipulate them to show whatever you want depending on how they are presented.

"Far more Bikers are killed from ignoring the law, blah blah blah"

Of course, we all know that. What you need to do is look at the relevant statistics. Don't compare # of Cheesecutter deaths to Concrete barriers. That's a Biased sample, as there are different quantities, in differen't areas/locations. What you need to look at is the mortality rate, or casualty rate of each.

Take the number of bikers to hit a concrete barrier over say a 5 year period.

How many of them died?

How many of those deaths were a result of hitting the barrier? And put that into a percentage.

So X% of bikers to hit a concrete barrier died as a direct result of hitting the barrier

Then do the same for the cheesecutter barriers (Y%) (and others)

Then compare X and Y. (very simplistic overview, but I gave up Stats after Bursary :zzzz:)

Easy - in the 5 year perion 2003 - 2007 (inclusive) there were 90 motorcycle crashes (reported) involving Guardrails. Of these 3 were fatal - one was someone riding into teh rail of a bridge so I kind of discount this as a darwin award candidate rather than blaming the rail (no rail and hed have drowned so...)

A further 30 were listed as serious (in terms of injuries, 42 were minor and 15 were non-injury. You can work out the percentages...

There's a famous quote most people should know, (I forget who said it). If one person dies it's a tragedy, if 1,000,000 people die it's a statistic. The point in the Cheesecutter campaign is to avoid further tragedies, thus creating another statistic.[/QUOTE]

It was Joseph Stalin.

[Mom]

but given that the only person in NZ killed by one was muppet doing wheelies in a place he shouldn't,


On the night in question his frame broke in two and I figure there's a damn good chance that that happened from landing a wheelstand.

Ok I will be the voice of reason here. I address this to you both and to anyone else reading this thread.

Daniel Evans was killed as a result injuries he sustained hitting a WRSB (cheesecutter). Full stop, the end.

The reasons for him coming into contact with that cheesecutter are still being investigated and the coroner is still to make a finding on the accident.

There are any number of rumours floating around, trust me I think I may have heard them all.

This case is not closed at all, how about we all wait to hear what the official reason was for the accident happening, before spouting off your "Chinese Whispered" version of events?

Daniels death may have been the catalyst for this current campaign, but this issue has been around for many years, I remember writing letters back when the very first of these motorcyclist killers were installed on the northern motorway extension from, if I remember correctly Tristram Ave, Auckland, northbound.

[Mom]

But back on topic.

You seem to have a lot of statistical data regarding these cheesecutter/barriers at your finger tips mate. What exactly do you do for a job again?

[MSTRS]

Nice to see some reasoned debate...

There has been plenty of reasoned 'debate', as you put it, all through these threads. The fact that it surrounds an emotive issue needs to be taken into account too.
And no matter what you say, we do know that we die when we hit things. The idea is to NOT hit things. But your Transit organisation insists on putting things for us to hit in places where it is highly likely that we will (outside on righthand bends). And the things that we hit that are most likely to kill us are the ones with the greatest psi at point of 'touch'. Obviously it depends on the angle of strike, but a smooth solid surface is streets ahead of a small section post everytime.
And is it too hard for you to understand that when our escape routes left and right are compromised, we are going to be a tad....upset ??

[Mom]

is it too hard for you to understand that when our escape routes left and right are compromised, we are going to be a tad....upset ??

The Dome Valley north of Warkworth is a classic example of this. If I meet a car that has crossed the centre lane and heading directly towards me I have 2 choices. Head on into the car, or sideways into a cheesecutter!

Of course the fact that Transit have reduced the speed limit through there to 80km/ph to improve safety, has to be factored into the equation, guess I will be looking at limbs severed hitting the cheesecutter, rather than instant death at 100km/ph. Or I could always take my chances flying over the car that I hit.

[Ixion]

Interestingly enough, earlier this year a motorcyclist went safely over the to pof a WRSB in Otago - I think it was on SH6... Havent got teh article on me, but it was in the ODT.



So they don't stop you going over the cliff anyway.




heres a devils advocate question for you - and remember I ride as well...

If motorcycles are fundamentally incompatible with infrastructure designed to keep other motorists safe, and providing for their safety would have to be at the expense of all other road users (which would be a valid conclusion given the commenst on here) - why dont we ban them? I mean they`re not nessecary to teh functioning of the economy - dont carry goods or generate GDP - they just cost the citizen in ACC claims.

as outlandish and provocative as that statement was, I`ll bet you dollars to donuts that I could get 7000 signitures on a petition to that effect (as many as the cheese-cutter campaign).

Flawewd argument. Motorcycles are not incompatible with PROPERLY ENGINEERED infrastructure.

Why not argue that bridges should be built to take a maximum load of one tonne. That should be fine for bikes (OK, von Klunken will have to wait until no-one else is around). Could kill a few car drivers though. So obviously cars are incompatible with infrastructure. Ban them

The whole complaint about the cheesecutters is that Transit have failed to design them properly. Any road item, but particulalry a purported safety measure shoudl be designed to take the requirements of ALL road users into account. WRBs design deliberately ignores that needs of some road users and puts them into danger.

A number of measures which could make the WRBs safe or safer for motorcycles have been proposed to Transit. Many of them are endorsed by overseas authorities. Transit have ignored them all.

So the issue is not that WRBs (or any other barier) are incompatible with motorcycles. It is that Transit are deliberately, through inadequate design standards, designing danger into our roads.

Arguments about speeding, drunk riding and the like are a total red herring. They amount to a statement that "Yes, we are deliberately and unnecessarily building dangerous roads. But it serves you right because you are all speeding drunken riders, so you deserve to die".

If WRBs ONLY killed riders who were speeding , or riding drunk, I would be less critical of them. That is not the case.

You may note that most of the noise about WRBs is coming from riders of many years experience (some of whom I suspect have been riding for more years than you have been alive). They are concerned because they realise that , almost uniquely, the WRB is a potentially fatal hazard that no amount of care, prudence , skill or experience can avert. That will kill a rider who is riding legally, responsibly and cautiously. And which, unlike some other unavoidable hazrds is placed there quite deliberately by people who are tasked and paid to make our roads safer, not less safe.

There are plenty of people on the roads who endanger me, unpaid. I object to having an organisation which I help fund endanger me, and then argue that I should not object because I am probably speeding or drunk.

[Ixion]

You seem to have a lot of statistical data regarding these cheesecutter/barriers at your finger tips mate. What exactly do you do for a job again?

He works for Transit. (And in fairness, has been a helpful resource on some other issues)

[Dakara]

I certainly didnt try and put any blame on anyone in THAT crash, in fact I`ve studiously avoided commenting on it, and I am have seen a lot of the information pertaining to it...

But back on topic.



Easy - in the 5 year perion 2003 - 2007 (inclusive) there were 90 motorcycle crashes (reported) involving Guardrails. Of these 3 were fatal - one was someone riding into teh rail of a bridge so I kind of discount this as a darwin award candidate rather than blaming the rail (no rail and hed have drowned so...)

A further 30 were listed as serious (in terms of injuries, 42 were minor and 15 were non-injury. You can work out the percentages...

There's a famous quote most people should know, (I forget who said it). If one person dies it's a tragedy, if 1,000,000 people die it's a statistic. The point in the Cheesecutter campaign is to avoid further tragedies, thus creating another statistic.

It was Joseph Stalin.




Oh that initial comment wasn't directed at you, was towards a previous poster who made a rather disrespectful comment.

Anyway, I'm no statistician, but to compare the stats you just gave me, one would need to separate the Wire barrier accidents from the Concrete ones, apply a correction to compensate for their being more of one type than the other, thus giving a fair and unbiased result (unbiased mathematically not personally).

As you said earlier, it is a "Perceived Hazard" which is partially true. But all Hazards are Perceived until disaster strikes, and the more hazards we can perceive and correct without loss of life the better.

On a personal note, I would rather take my chances with a solid barrier than a posted one (wire or otherwise). Hitting a post is like hitting a power-pole, game over and we all know the risk associated with the wires. The concrete ones however, have the advantage that if we survive the initial impact, and are not driven over by the vehicles behind us, we can slide along the barrier gradually slowing down to a stop. Opposed to catching a limb or other extremity.

Oh and thanks, yes Stalin was who I was thinking of. :niceone:

[Ixion]

..? I mean they`re not nessecary to teh functioning of the economy - dont carry goods or generate GDP - they just cost the citizen in ACC claims.

..


Nor do cars. Should we ban them too? Efficient personal transport is a part of GDP generation.

[RiderInBlack]

Daniels death may have been the catalyst for this current campaign, but this issue has been around for many yearsYep, can trace posts relating ta Cheesecutters/Wire Rope Barriers on KB dating as far back 2003 (which is when KB started). Do we really need more deaths relating to WRB before they wake up and take all road users in account before installing safety barriers?

[Ixion]

I argued with Transit about them in 2004 (a Mr Flanagan, I think ?). Their rebuttal argument then was "No one has been killed by them, so what's the problem? " .

Now it is "Only one person has been killed by them , so whats the problem ?"

How many deaths DO Transit require before admitting there's a problem ?

[MSTRS]

The Dome Valley north of Warkworth is a classic example of this. If I meet a car that has crossed the centre lane and heading directly towards me I have 2 choices. Head on into the car, or sideways into a cheesecutter!

Of course the fact that Transit have reduced the speed limit through there to 80km/ph to improve safety, has to be factored into the equation, guess I will be looking at limbs severed hitting the cheesecutter, rather than instant death at 100km/ph. Or I could always take my chances flying over the car that I hit.

You may avoid that car by veering to your right and so passing him on his left. But can you avoid the car in it's legal lane behind him?
And if/when there is a cc down the centre as well, you've lost that direction as a possibility...we know that the wire fence will distort into your lane as much as 3m, so you can now choose...1. Into the car (wrapped in cc) or 2. Left and into the line of posts/wire down the road edge.
Lovely choice. Sucks to be you.

[Dakara]

I argued with Transit about them in 2004 (a Mr Flanagan, I think ?). Their rebuttal argument then was "No one has been killed by them, so what's the problem? " .

Now it is "Only one person has been killed by them , so whats the problem ?"

How many deaths DO Transit require before admitting there's a problem ?

When it no longer becomes an "Unfortunate accident" and they have enough to form a statistic.

"Hazard Identification" is a big part of the LTSA License testing system, yet when we identify one it needs to be littered with bodies to be recognized.

[huck farley]

All the Yakking on here isn't going to shift the fukn things. I have been to see both the Nat and Labour candidates and asked them just what they intend to do if the Nat bloke gets back in. And asked the Labour office just what they would do. The Nat Bloke says he will talk to the Minister about them. But he hasn't a problem with them personally. The Labour bloke reckoned he is against them and has voiced his opinion at conference level. They will all be after your vote soon the slimy bastards. Meantime you could do the same and ring the electorate office in your town and put the Poli candidates on the spot. If we piss enough of them of it will be the talk of bull shit castle (the Beehive)
They are deathtraps and until a high ranking cabinet minister's kid is involved in an accident and his or her body parts have to be scraped of the road fuck all will be done. But by putting pressure on the major parties we might get lucky and get a few on our side. I say go for it . As it is only a phone call or better still a visit to see his/her's local candidates.

[Mom]

You may avoid that car by veering to your right and so passing him on his left. But can you avoid the car in it's legal lane behind him?
And if/when there is a cc down the centre as well, you've lost that direction as a possibility...we know that the wire fence will distort into your lane as much as 3m, so you can now choose...1. Into the car (wrapped in cc) or 2. Left and into the line of posts/wire down the road edge.
Lovely choice. Sucks to be you.

But this road has come in for so many safety improvements over the years, it is a huge black spot. Transit have made this road SAFER! Interestingly I used to commute it on a bike 2 up for many years. Have driven it regularly since 1979. Never come to grief once.

About the scariest thing I have ever experienced in there was on my GN a few years ago, being tailgated by a wanker in a Subaru, who about ran me off the road as he overtook me around a blind left hand bend. Bear in mind I own my bit of road when I ride too! No shoulder hugging for me.

He obviously did not want to cross the centre line, though he did, so took my space on the road. All I can say is thank God there was not a cheesecutter to my left, as I ducked onto the shoulder to avoid said dickhead.

[MSTRS]

Then your only option is to keep your mirrors clean and go faster than anyone behind you. And hope that the ones coming the other way stay on their side. And that there is no spilt diesel for you to take a slide in.
Did I miss anything?

[WelshWizard]

And save motorists, law abiding or otherwise...

Shall we replace them with W-section or Thrie beam (Armco) as these also have posts which will kill / maim you? Or let you slide over the cliff that the barrier is protecting you from? Into head-on traffic? I mean it`s your choice to do all those things...

More likely to kill you (statistically speaking) are crashing due to excessive speed on a corner, dangerous overtaking, riding while impaired. I ride - the barriers dont concern me in the slightest - no more than all the other roadside hazards that you conveniently ignore.

Your concern for your fellow motorists is touching.

Tell that to the widows of the drivers killed when a lorry went through the WRB ( Brifen Barriers).
Sorry you come over like an employee of a Brifen manufacturer, these things are being proven all over the world to be more dangerous than ever considered, you will find more dead among car drivers who have had the misfortune to be on the receiving end of these Brifen failures, check out some of the links posted on the CC threads on KB, even one Road Engineer from Holland has made it clear that these things are not safe.

[Mom]

Then your only option is to keep your mirrors clean and go faster than anyone behind you. And hope that the ones coming the other way stay on their side. And that there is no spilt diesel for you to take a slide in.
Did I miss anything?

Surely you can not be suggesting I exceed the posted speed limit?

Probably, you have missed the odd wind gusts that find their way through the place could be a potential issue, gusts of draft dissplaced air from heavy vehicles zooming past going the other way, ummmm.... Best I get off my bike and push it through there then. There goes my lunches at Mangawhai on the odd weekend then. Dang!

[RiderInBlack]

Of these 3 were fatal - one was someone riding into teh rail of a bridge so I kind of discount this as a darwin award candidate rather than blaming the rail (no rail and hed have drowned so...)
.
Are you that sure he would have drowned? I could fall into water as a biker and have a good chance of surviving. Not trapped in the vehicle as it goes down. Yes it would be a matter of luck but still I have better chance of surviving that than hitting a WRB. On parts of Ruakaka/Waipu Straights, have seen barrier put up to "Protect" road users from going into the tidal flats. I'd rather land in the tidal flats than hit one of these barriers. You got ta question where some of the barriers are being placed. Are they really increasing road safety it ALL the places they have been put?

[Dakara]

Stolen from WelshWizards sig... this says it all really:

http://www.concretebarrier.org.uk/

[MSTRS]

Are they really increasing road safe it ALL the places they have been put?

In a word...NO. Quite the opposite, in fact.
And it's strange that one will find them using stats to install this shit...*Someone died here in a freak accident so let's make sure it can't happen again* BUT in the case of existing wires "Someone died here. It was his fault. So all barriers including this one stay*

[Mom]

All the Yakking on here isn't going to shift the fukn things.....
but by putting pressure on the major parties we might get lucky and get a few on our side. I say go for it . As it is only a phone call or better still a visit to see his/her's local candidates.

Absolutely! Thank you for taking the time to bring this to your MP's/potential MP's attention. All we need now is for others to join the letter writting/email/electorate office visits brigade.

Dont forget to spread this message to other road users too.

These things are not safe for anyone. Trucks go over them, cars can go under and over them, bikers risk their limbs when they contact them at as slow as 70km/ph, we can be killed at legal road speeds.

PS: I have a list of Parliament Press Secretaries for anyone that wants to contact one of them. Note to self, get these added to the www.cheesecutter.co.nz website

[Ixion]

You may avoid that car by veering to your right and so passing him on his left. But can you avoid the car in it's legal lane behind him?
And if/when there is a cc down the centre as well, you've lost that direction as a possibility...we know that the wire fence will distort into your lane as much as 3m, so you can now choose...1. Into the car (wrapped in cc) or 2. Left and into the line of posts/wire down the road edge.
Lovely choice. Sucks to be you.

I avoided a very nasty accident a few years ago, when a car shot out of a side road and collided at speed with the car two places ahead of me,. I could have stopped, but I doubted the Jag behind me could. So I veered across the road between the traffic and from the ditch on the opposite side of the road, watched the Jag slide straight into the tangle of metal. The jag driver was severely injured, I would have been killed if I had not been able to cross to the wrong side of the road. In that case a centre barrier would have killed me even if I never hit it. (couldn't go left, two lane road and the lane to my left was already impacting)

[Nikolai_V]

Yep, can trace posts relating ta Cheesecutters/Wire Rope Barriers on KB dating as far back 2003 (which is when KB started). Do we really need more deaths relating to WRB before they wake up and take all road users in account before installing safety barriers?

The wire rope barriers have been used in NZ since the mid eighties (from memory it was SH8 beside the new Lake Dunstan where they were installed first). So they`ve been around that long... It would be interesting to see how many peoples lives had been saved by them in the intervening years.

[MSTRS]

You will never know. It's not possible to state that lives were saved in a strike since you can never know what the outcome would be without the WRB. A guess is all.'
But we can know how many were killed by them.

[Maha]

Then your only option is to keep your mirrors clean and go faster than anyone behind you. And hope that the ones coming the other way stay on their side. And that there is no spilt diesel for you to take a slide in.
Did I miss anything?

Yeah, option B... Take woodcoks rd to SH16 and up to Wellsford.
Its 80ks through the Dome now and the Five O :Police: seem to pop up when you least expect it....the beggers!

[MSTRS]

Yeah, option B... Take woodcoks rd to SH16 and up to Wellsford.
Its 80ks through the Dome now and the Five O :Police: seem to pop up when you least expect it....the beggers!

16 eh? Eyes peeled for ginga. Or is that only on Thursdays?

[Nikolai_V]

Tell that to the widows of the drivers killed when a lorry went through the WRB ( Brifen Barriers).
Sorry you come over like an employee of a Brifen manufacturer, these things are being proven all over the world to be more dangerous than ever considered, you will find more dead among car drivers who have had the misfortune to be on the receiving end of these Brifen failures, check out some of the links posted on the CC threads on KB, even one Road Engineer from Holland has made it clear that these things are not safe.

As others have noted i`m certainly not employed by any barrier manufacturers...

Regarding your points - The first principle when designing barriers is to ask whether the hazard posed by the barrier is less than the hazard we`re protecting against. Barriers aside from concrete F type are designed to deflect and absorb impact, variables like post spacing and rail type are changed to suit particular applications.

You`ll notice the evolution in barrier end terminals over the years, wire rope barriers have evolved as well.

The common arguments on here - that Motorcyclists are going to be sliced into pieces simply arent being seen in practice. Pulling these out will simply allow vehicles to hit the hazards we`re tring to protect them against.

As it stands (as of today) WRSB and Armco are similar in terms of casualty rates for riders - do you want these gone as well?

I`ll lump them together because the posts which cause the damage to motorcyclists are common to both barrier types.

I don`t really need to look on this forum to get information regarding barriers - i`ve studied these things at uni and in practice for a while now.

I`m not denying that people are killed in collisions with barriers - I stated earlier some recent NZ stats to that effect. Cars, trucks, motorcyclists all suffer in sudden decelerations.

As an engineer, decisions affecting public safety have to be made, with limited resources, with varied and un-predictable users of the road network. Just like you choose to disregard my opinions - i`m free to disagree with the unnamed dutch engineer.

Would you like to talk to the widow(er)s caused by the non-installation of barriers (which arent concrete)? I can tell you there`ll quite a few more of them than widow(er)s of motorcyclists (and other motorists) killed / harmed by wire rope and armco barriers.

[swbarnett]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The issue for me is not how many lives WRBs save, it's the fact that they make roads more dangerous for motorcyclists.

This fact leads me to the conclusion that transit are treating us as third class citizens. It's this prejudice that I object too more than the barriers themselves.

Which is not to say that I like the WRBs, far from it.

And as for the comparison with armco. They are nothing like armco. Yes, they both have posts but armco can be fixed by the addition of another W rail at the bottom. WRBs cannot be fixed and, therefore, must go.

[Nikolai_V]

In a word...NO. Quite the opposite, in fact.
And it's strange that one will find them using stats to install this shit...*Someone died here in a freak accident so let's make sure it can't happen again* BUT in the case of existing wires "Someone died here. It was his fault. So all barriers including this one stay*

How about the barriers which get whacked all the time (Centennial Highway (SH1)) - every time we repair one is one less head on collision...

Again you`re talking about one accident, as justification for binning an effective safety system that has a proven track record, and has saved hundreds of lives across the country... and the quotes without evidence of 70km/h slicing limbs off. Strangely enough we do know plenty about the effects of motorcyclists hitting things at speed.

The human body just isn`t designed to collide with anything at speeds above around 20 km/h.

Try something. Take emotion out of the equation, and look at this like someone who has seen and attended plenty of fatal crashes, cars and motorcyclists alike. Think about the oppurtunity cost of all the dead motorists as a result of not installing wire rope barriers. Any barrier is capable of killing motorcyclists, having seen footage of motorcyclists hitting concrete and the decelleration that theyre subjected to - you`re just getting killed in a different way in most cases.

In my opinion motorcycling cannot be made safe with existing infrastructure as anything designed to safely protect cars will of necessity impart near lethal loads onto errant motorcyclists. No way around this, and I dont personally care what the Concrete Manufacturers association have to say.

If your body contacts any immovable object at 100km/h (27 m/s) you will deform at 3 times the force of gravity, its going to hurt and do unpleasant things to you. This is true of car drivers who without airbags only have around a 50:50 chance of surviving running off the road at 100km/h. You have no airbags, only 6mm of foam and plastic armour and hopefully a decent helmet. If you lowside into a barrier, the exposed posts will catch you and slow you rapidly, it doenst matter if the posts are metal or wood, attached to wrsb or armco. This will hurt, and depending on speed it may kill you.

Studies quoted by FEMA (the federation of european motorcyclists) stated that retrofitting anymore than 10% of the network with say Moto-tub, or similar protection to the posts would be economically unviable.

The way I see it, as a motorcyclist myself, is to accept that one of two may die every 5-6 years, in much the same way that you accept that 35 will die each year as a result of hitting banks and trees and parked cars. Call me callous, but its the current state of affairs and until someone either changes the laws of physics or the attitudes of riders its likely to continue.

[Nikolai_V]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The issue for me is not how many lives WRBs save, it's the fact that they make roads more dangerous for motorcyclists.

This fact leads me to the conclusion that transit are treating us as third class citizens. It's this prejudice that I object too more than the barriers themselves.

Which is not to say that I like the WRBs, far from it.

And as for the comparison with armco. They are nothing like armco. Yes, they both have posts but armco can be fixed by the addition of another W rail at the bottom. WRBs cannot be fixed and, therefore, must go.

WRSB can have plastic affixxed to the posts to reduce the hazard from getting caught in them also....

Third class citizens - I think the persecution complex is alive and well.

As a motorcyclist i`m more angry at the other riders who kill themselves in great numbers by their own stupidity, thinking the road is some sort of playground. These clowns cause a great deal of stress to my wife and family who then worry about me when i`m out on a ride. This also has a negative effect on potential motorcyclists who are put off by the risk.

I`m going to rant now, and this statement is my own personal opinion, not that of any organistaion I currently or have worked for.

Your first statement doesnt make sense. All people are equal right? Some people choose to do riskier things (risk homeostasis - look it up) than others. I`ll be dammed if i`m going to endanger the vast majority of people to cater to a near as dammit non-existient problem, as percieved by a distinct minority. You may be familiar with a concept called utilitarianism - the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This is what western society is founded upon. It would be bloody negligent of any engineer to adopt your line of thinking. Emotion and wooly-headed thought have no business in engineering or public health, which is what most of the road safety measures are.