Cheesecutter campaign [Archive] - Page 3

Ixion

2nd July 2008, 23:12

You may be familiar with a concept called utilitarianism - the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This is what western society is founded upon. It would be bloody negligent of any engineer to adopt your line of thinking. Emotion and wooly-headed thought have no business in engineering or public health, which is what most of the road safety measures are.

So, on that basis, you being an engineer and logical and all, you will volunteer to be euthanised so that your organs can be harvested. Right?

Cos, thats what would provide the greatest good for the greatest number. One (Nikolai_V) dead. But probably six or seven alive who would other wise be dead, thanks to Nikolai's kidneys, heart , lungs, liver etc. Not to mention the further net benefit from corneas and such like. A net benefit of five or six lives.

Someone who REALLY believed in utilitarianism wouldn't hesitate would he. Nor would he hesitate to put his wife forward for the same purpose. Greatest good remember. Care to explain to her why you think having her euthanised is a really good idea?

Bet you any sum you wouldn't do it though. It's one thing to spout waffle about greatest good for greatest number etc etc when it's all nice and academic. Another thing when the life on the deficit side is yours .

And where cheesecutters are concerned, the lives on the deficit side are ours. And just exactly as you are not willing to sacrifice your life , and your wife's life, with a smile because "it's for the greater good", nor are we.

To trade in human lives in such a fashion is immoral and unethical. I think you should have studied less engineering at university and more ethics.

Zapf

2nd July 2008, 23:55

swbarnett

3rd July 2008, 00:38

How about the barriers which get whacked all the time (Centennial Highway (SH1)) - every time we repair one is one less head on collision...
This may or may not be true. You or I cannot say because it assumes there would've been a collision without the barrier. Something that cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy.

Again you`re talking about one accident, as justification for binning an effective safety system that has a proven track record, and has saved hundreds of lives across the country...
Then why has our road toll not dropped dramatically?

and the quotes without evidence of 70km/h slicing limbs off.
This came out of some European studies. I don't have the reference to hand.

In my opinion motorcycling cannot be made safe with existing infrastructure
We're not asking for motorcycling to be made safe. Hell, some of us are in it BECAUSE it's not as safe as a car. We're just asking that it not be made any more dangerous than it already is.

If your body contacts any immovable object at 100km/h (27 m/s) you will deform at 3 times the force of gravity,
No dispute here. However, how many impacts with barriers are at 90degrees?

At a shallow angle you'll slide along concrete whereas WRBs will slice you to bits.

The way I see it, as a motorcyclist myself, is to accept that one of two may die every 5-6 years, in much the same way that you accept that 35 will die each year as a result of hitting banks and trees and parked cars. Call me callous, but its the current state of affairs and until someone either changes the laws of physics or the attitudes of riders its likely to continue.
So you accept that a car driver's life is worth more than that of a motorcyclist?

swbarnett

3rd July 2008, 01:00

WRSB can have plastic affixxed to the posts to reduce the hazard from getting caught in them also....

Third class citizens - I think the persecution complex is alive and well.
Well, we obviously didn't figure in the discussions about barrier use (at least not in a positive way).

As a motorcyclist i`m more angry at the other riders who kill themselves in great numbers by their own stupidity, thinking the road is some sort of playground.
Why is this your problem? you're obviously still alive.

These clowns cause a great deal of stress to my wife and family who then worry about me when i`m out on a ride.
"These clowns" have nothing to do with it. Your wife obviously doesn't know what type of rider you are (assuming you're a sensible one, and this seems likely from your comments). You need to educate her as to the risks that YOU face.

Your first statement doesnt make sense. All people are equal right? Some people choose to do riskier things (risk homeostasis - look it up) than others.
I know risk homeostatis - it came up on a cycling forum talking about airbags in cars.

I`ll be dammed if i`m going to endanger the vast majority of people to cater to a near as dammit non-existient problem, as percieved by a distinct minority.
We're not asking you to endanger anyone. Just don't make the situation worse than it already is for anyone.

Perhaps a dose of the doctor's credo is what is required here - "First do no harm".

You may be familiar with a concept called utilitarianism - the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This is what western society is founded upon.
Modern western society also seems to be hung up on the concept of non-discrimination. Why should we as motorcyclists be any different to any other minority?

It would be bloody negligent of any engineer to adopt your line of thinking. Emotion and wooly-headed thought have no business in engineering or public health, which is what most of the road safety measures are.
And a doctor with transit's attitude should be struck off for violating the hippocratic oath.

If emotion has no place then why do anything at all? We're just vague bundles of sensory perception afterall.

swbarnett

3rd July 2008, 01:02

The WRB's are the Hazard. Sure traffic on the otherside is a Hazard too, but there is a much lesser chance of hitting them than the WRB's. Cause the traffic is not always there. So by encasing the road with them, our risk of hitting a hazard has just increased. Do you maths
Exactly.

And this applies to all road users, not just motorcycles.

MSTRS

3rd July 2008, 09:40

... and the quotes without evidence of 70km/h slicing limbs off.Euro studies...you 'quote' them when it suits.

Strangely enough we do know plenty about the effects of motorcyclists hitting things at speed.
As do we. Some of us first hand.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the effects of a collision, and the sliding scale of damage inflicted depending on the angle of strike. For us, the angle of strike with the posts of a WRB is always 90 degrees, with predictable results according to speed.

Nikolai_V

3rd July 2008, 13:05

So, on that basis, you being an engineer and logical and all, you will volunteer to be euthanised so that your organs can be harvested. Right?

Cos, thats what would provide the greatest good for the greatest number. One (Nikolai_V) dead. But probably six or seven alive who would other wise be dead, thanks to Nikolai's kidneys, heart , lungs, liver etc. Not to mention the further net benefit from corneas and such like. A net benefit of five or six lives.

Someone who REALLY believed in utilitarianism wouldn't hesitate would he. Nor would he hesitate to put his wife forward for the same purpose. Greatest good remember. Care to explain to her why you think having her euthanised is a really good idea?

Bet you any sum you wouldn't do it though. It's one thing to spout waffle about greatest good for greatest number etc etc when it's all nice and academic. Another thing when the life on the deficit side is yours .

And where cheesecutters are concerned, the lives on the deficit side are ours. And just exactly as you are not willing to sacrifice your life , and your wife's life, with a smile because "it's for the greater good", nor are we.

To trade in human lives in such a fashion is immoral and unethical. I think you should have studied less engineering at university and more ethics.

Where do I start... your statement assumes that i`m more good to society dead than alive - which I kind of disagree with, but hey groupthink rules on here....

I`m sorry but your viewpoint is irrelevant - all governments have to make decisions which favour some over others on a daily basis (herceptin anyone).

As an organ donor I do actually find your position offensive, because should anything happen to me, I will actually be doing some good for people even after I die. Unlike your campaign which I feel will result in a net increase in road deaths.

The current value of a human life is about $2M, so I figure that if I can save sy 2-3 people per year through work, and then 4-6 when I die, i`m in credit, and should get a refund on my taxes...

Nikolai_V

3rd July 2008, 13:06

Exactly.

And this applies to all road users, not just motorcycles.

And WRSB and armco are installed to protect cuttings, cliffs, estuaries etc (which are also always there)

Nikolai_V

3rd July 2008, 13:12

This may or may not be true. You or I cannot say because it assumes there would've been a collision without the barrier. Something that cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy.

Funnily enough we don`t just guess these things, we undertake modelling to determine the likelihood of collisions, and there is always years of historical data to back-analyse.

Then why has our road toll not dropped dramatically?
Considering traffic and population growth it has in real terms.

This came out of some European studies. I don't have the reference to hand.

We're not asking for motorcycling to be made safe. Hell, some of us are in it BECAUSE it's not as safe as a car. We're just asking that it not be made any more dangerous than it already is.

No dispute here. However, how many impacts with barriers are at 90degrees?

At a shallow angle you'll slide along concrete whereas WRBs will slice you to bits.

So you accept that a car driver's life is worth more than that of a motorcyclist?[/

All human life is valued equally, hence my issue with removing wrsb to prevent one or two fatalities every 5 years when they`be prevented (say) 20 deaths in that time.

MSTRS

3rd July 2008, 15:03

.... hence my issue with removing wrsb to prevent one or two fatalities every 5 years when they`be prevented (say) 20 deaths in that time.

Asked someone else, and now you too... Are you thick?
Where have we asked for it's removal?
True, we'd like to see it replaced with smooth barriers, but all we are asking is that no more be installed while proper studies targetted to the needs of motorcyclists are carried out. Or brought to light from overseas studies (of which there is plenty). And when those studies show the risk posed by naked wires/posts, that something is done to cover or replace them.

swbarnett

3rd July 2008, 16:20

And WRSB and armco are installed to protect cuttings, cliffs, estuaries etc (which are also always there)
A lot of the time I'd rather take my chances with the cliff. Better off with concrete or modified armco.

swbarnett

3rd July 2008, 16:38

Funnily enough we don`t just guess these things, we undertake modelling to determine the likelihood of collisions, and there is always years of historical data to back-analyse.
You said that "every" time a WRB was damaged it meant a collision avoided. This I simply don't believe. There's not always a car on the other side.

Considering traffic and population growth it has in real terms.
Fair point. However I think it's more likely that improvements in vehicle safety are responsible (just a personal observation).

All human life is valued equally, hence my issue with removing wrsb to prevent one or two fatalities every 5 years when they`be prevented (say) 20 deaths in that time.
You don't sacrifice one section of society for another. Especially when there are perfectly viable (and possibly cheaper in the long term) alternative barriers that treat everyone equally.

WelshWizard

6th July 2008, 19:36

As others have noted i`m certainly not employed by any barrier manufacturers...

Regarding your points - The first principle when designing barriers is to ask whether the hazard posed by the barrier is less than the hazard we`re protecting against. Barriers aside from concrete F type are designed to deflect and absorb impact, variables like post spacing and rail type are changed to suit particular applications.

You`ll notice the evolution in barrier end terminals over the years, wire rope barriers have evolved as well.

The common arguments on here - that Motorcyclists are going to be sliced into pieces simply arent being seen in practice. Pulling these out will simply allow vehicles to hit the hazards we`re tring to protect them against.

As it stands (as of today) WRSB and Armco are similar in terms of casualty rates for riders - do you want these gone as well?

I`ll lump them together because the posts which cause the damage to motorcyclists are common to both barrier types.

People are still sliced , What about the car drivers and passenger decapitated by the last year.
I agree most of the damage is done by the post, but the wires guide you into them, acting as a slice at the same time, the post just finish of the job.
As for pulling them out All we ever asked for is them to be made Motorcycle safe, also safe for any road user that hits them for what ever reason, also we have asked for no more to be installed while a investigation into there safety is carried out, there are other forms of barrier that can be installed that have proven to be a better long term solution.

I`m not denying that people are killed in collisions with barriers - I stated earlier some recent NZ stats to that effect. Cars, trucks, motorcyclists all suffer in sudden decelerations.

Agreed, only problem is an unseated rider always hits a barrier post at 90 degrees even if he slides along the wires.

As an engineer, decisions affecting public safety have to be made, with limited resources, with varied and un-predictable users of the road network. Just like you choose to disregard my opinions - i`m free to disagree with the unnamed dutch engineer.

So squandering money on a cheap to install but expensive and short life barrier is cost effective.

As for the un-named Dutch engineer, at least his government has banned the use and installation of WRB's

while we have an un-named and presumably NZ qualified Road engineer, who seems to have a vested interest in installing WRBs, tell us that they are safe and we should not complain about them, maybe you should check out the 10 lawsuit going on in the USA from the Families of those that died because of WRB's, but hey that is not in NZ and here we can't sue LTNZ .

maybe the family who died because of no barrier will be asking why there was not a barrier constructed that would work out cheaper to maintain there by allow more barriers to be erected that are safer for every one including Motorcyclist.

Mom

6th July 2008, 21:24

As others have noted i`m certainly not employed by any barrier manufacturers...

Quoted for context

As for pulling them out All we ever asked for is them to be made Motorcycle safe, also safe for any road user that hits them for what ever reason, also we have asked for no more to be installed while a investigation into there safety is carried out, there are other forms of barrier that can be installed that have proven to be a better long term solution.

Let me post the wording of the petition for clarity once again;

We, the undersigned, are concerned about the safety of wire traffic barriers and their increasing presence on New Zealand roads and highways. We urge Transit New Zealand, Land Transport New Zealand and the Ministry of Transport to place a moratorium on the use of such barriers until a comprehensive review is undertaken into the effectiveness and safety of wire traffic barriers to all road users, particularly motorcyclists.

It is not rocket science. No more of these killer, dangerous barriers to be installed until Transit and the Government have taken the time to fully investigate, taking in to account the already well documented studies that have been done overseas about these things. Stop installing them!

The ones we already have? Research will confirm that they are not safe, they are "cost effective" in the short term at best. They can be improved and made safer, or pulled out and replaced or converted to something that is safer for all road users.

moT

25th September 2008, 14:33

For arguements sake i think this campaign is prety stupid. the cheesecutter barriers are the cheapest form of barrier per km then any other barrier and they do a good job preventing cars from crossing lanes. A motorcyclist has a high chance of dieing by hitting any barrier cheesecutter or not. I believe the reason for this campeign is because the form of death is quite graphic compared to other barriers so why should you discriminate against different kind of barriers they will both lead to the same result. There is no point spending more gov $$$ on barriers that are not needed.

Hitcher

25th September 2008, 14:44

There is no point spending more gov $$$ on barriers that are not needed.

Nice troll. Love your work.

MSTRS

25th September 2008, 15:32

Tom seems to need more proof of the truth surrounding barriers...

WelshWizard

25th September 2008, 20:36

The EU has finally declared that the WRB'S are a health and safety issue, so they have started the ball rolling in Brussels, and it looks like 25 countries will have to declare them dangerous and remove them when I find the link again will post it.

only simple minds believe that hitting an anchor wire, a post , or the wires them selves is as safe as sliding along a concrete barrier, or for that matter a complying steel barrier, the designers specs call for all steel barriers to be from the top to the ground steel so the post are not exposed.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/concern-over-wire-rope-crash-barriers-sparks-eu-review-1138376.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2007/0919/1190060076190.html

Katman

25th September 2008, 20:55

Where have we asked for it's removal?

The EU has finally declared that the WRB'S are a health and safety issue, so they have started the ball rolling in Brussels, and it looks like 25 countries will have to declare them dangerous and remove them when I find the link again will post it.

This is an example of where people here get the impression that we are also calling for the barriers removal.

Ocean1

25th September 2008, 22:19

This is an example of where people here get the impression that we are also calling for the barriers removal.

Only them wot don't read proper.

Here's a better reason for people to believe we want them removed: I believe the fucking things are an abomination designed by an accountant and I want the fucking things gone. Plain enough?

I'd accept burying them safely in concrete.

About 1M high.

Slightly tapering towards the top.

RiderInBlack

26th September 2008, 09:14

OK right, Spring is here and Summer is on the way. Sooooo when are we doing the Next Cheesecutter Awareness Ride/s?

MSTRS

26th September 2008, 09:28

This is an example of where people here get the impression that we are also calling for the barriers removal.
Retrofitting to make safer, or replacement with a 'decent' barrier is not removal. Thought we were clear at all times on that one.

I'd accept burying them safely in concrete.

About 1M high.

Slightly tapering towards the top.

:niceone: and there is a forming machine that will do just that. In the resource thread there is a link to a film put out by Britain's Transit-equivalent that shows it in action.
Watch it here http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

avgas

26th September 2008, 09:31

Yeah rip em out - replace em with an electric fence.
those suckers keep the cows out of the garden. I crash my motorbike into one once and it took me 10 mins of jolts to get it out.

sunhuntin

26th September 2008, 09:37

Yeah rip em out - replace em with an electric fence.
those suckers keep the cows out of the garden. I crash my motorbike into one once and it took me 10 mins of jolts to get it out.

dont give them any ideas!

Ocean1

26th September 2008, 19:22

:niceone: and there is a forming machine that will do just that. In the resource thread there is a link to a film put out by Britain's Transit-equivalent that shows it in action.
Watch it here http://www.safermotorways.co.uk/feature31_video_003.htm

I believe there's one lurking down at the new interchange at Normandale in the Hutt here. Belongs to a contractor and they apparently use it for temporary barriers 'cause it's more cost effective than most of the "temporary" options. <_<

WelshWizard

26th September 2008, 21:48

This is an example of where people here get the impression that we are also calling for the barriers removal.

I note you make no comment about the pros of hitting the WRB's , there posts, and wire anchors, As Misters has stated all we want is the WRB's to be modified so there are no longer a health and safety issue for motorcyclist, and if this is not possible replaced with a barrier that's is, no one has asked for the removal of a barrier without replacement without a safe alternative.

Maybe we should ask you if you are prepared to demonstrate how safe WRB's are by giving some sort of demonstration.

scumdog

26th September 2008, 21:59

WelshWizard

26th September 2008, 22:14

A waste of time - how many m/c deaths are cheese-cutter related as opposed to cars vs bike or even (shock-horror) deaths caused by people not able to keep on the road (WITHOUT cheese-cutters being there)??

Do a search on Google and see how many times Car drivers have paid the ultimate price for WRB design failures , one jumps to mind this year when four female students died because the WRB failed and there car went under the WRB, so now four sets of parents grieve for their not even 21 year old daughters who were only coming how from school, these things stop some but not all, and as for lorries if they hit at an angle of over 20 degrees they just go straight over the top as if they weren't there. at least with Concrete barriers, they stop cross over's, and first responders don't have to deal with headless school children on who were on there way home from school.

scumdog

26th September 2008, 22:20

Do a search on Google and see how many times Car drivers have paid the ultimate price for WRB design failures , one jumps to mind this year when four female students died because the WRB failed and there car went under the WRB, so now four sets of parents grieve for their not even 21 year old daughters who were only coming how from school, these things stop some but not all, and as for lorries if they hit at an angle of over 20 degrees they just go straight over the top as if they weren't there. at least with Concrete barriers, they stop cross over's, and first responders don't have to deal with headless school children on who were on there way home from school.

Yaeh, a plain head-on would be waay more better eh?? pfft.:blink:

NighthawkNZ

26th September 2008, 22:25

I simply avoid all objects on the road... :scratch:

riffer

26th September 2008, 22:27

I believe there's one lurking down at the new interchange at Normandale in the Hutt here. Belongs to a contractor and they apparently use it for temporary barriers 'cause it's more cost effective than most of the "temporary" options. <_<

Really? Perhaps we could liberate that sucker and do some work on the Moonshine Bridge cheesecutters... <_<

idb

26th September 2008, 23:03

I simply avoid all objects on the road... :scratch:

I'm kinda the same NH!

scumdog

26th September 2008, 23:04

I simply avoid all objects on the road... :scratch:

And I object to all thing in my road.... but I know what ya mean.

Ocean1

26th September 2008, 23:10

Really? Perhaps we could liberate that sucker and do some work on the Moonshine Bridge cheesecutters... <_<

Wonder what top speed is... and how fast we could feed it.

Fuckit, I see a custom blown bigblock powered median laying machine and a small fleet of stealth concrete delivery trucks.

Staff wanted for covert impromptu WRB encapsulation missions eh?

Way easier to design a jiffy saw on a camaflaged container truck though, reckon with about 1000hp you'd prune them fuckers at ground level at the speed limit.

Bit noisy p'raps...

Edit: some info here we may not yet have, under "safety": http://www.tac-atc.ca/techtrans/archive/v5n4/index.htm

Katman

27th September 2008, 12:11

I note you make no comment about the pros of hitting the WRB's , there posts, and wire anchors.

As I've said before, until motorcyclists are seen, as a whole, to be taking more responsibility for their own well being on the road by adopting a more responsible approach to their riding then the anti WRB campaigners will continue to be seen as little more than a bunch of whining Grandstanders.

NighthawkNZ

27th September 2008, 12:26

And I object to all thing in my road.... but I know what ya mean.

especially sheep :D

spongebob

22nd October 2008, 20:02

hi everyone i have been involved in some serious talk about the said cheese cutters so i thought id have my say while i see it on here aswell.
please note no offence to anyone intended
when the first majour fatality incident occured this topic come up at my bike club and every one dropped there knitting needles and complained how bad they were
this was the 1st fatality to the wires so i asked how many people have died hitting power poles.
the reply was in the hundreds in the hundreds
so my reply was well who gives a f about a wire rope lets rip them down they killing us by the dozzen

spongebob

22nd October 2008, 20:05

you see my point is this
if thats what the country can put up to stop a truck or car crossing the division and improve my chances then thats what it will have to be i know its not perfect but what is concreat no thanks steel gurder doesnt look much softer either way if you f up and hit it its not looking good
ride to the conditions and within reason and avoid them altogether

RiderInBlack

23rd October 2008, 06:36

you see my point is this
if thats what the country can put up to stop a truck or car crossing the division ...But they (WRB) aren't working at stopping trucks crossing the division. Noted riding back from the GC on Monday that they were repairing the WRB on the Motorway North between Albany and Silverdale. Could see the mark on the road from the accident damaging them and it was obvious that what ever had gone through the WRB, it had gone right across the on-coming lines (all three of them) after going through the WRB. Anyone have the details of that accident? As proves yet again that they are not working.

Gixxer 4 ever

23rd October 2008, 08:52

this was the 1st fatality to the wires so i asked how many people have died hitting power poles.
the reply was in the hundreds in the hundreds
them down they killing us by the dozzen

You will note that a lot of poles have been removed from the road side in the last 20 years. For all sorts of reasons. So if the poles are going and or being fitted with, snap off sections at the base, so should the dangers of WRB be revisited. Someone might die this weekend because of the WRB. A smooth flat concrete surface is better than a cheese cutting surface. No chance with a WRB, heaps with concrete.

so my reply was well who gives a f about a wire rope

Everyone here. I will be in Auckland this weekend and hope I get home again.

Mom

23rd October 2008, 10:11

so my reply was well who gives a f about a wire rope

Me for one. I come at this issue from a couple of sides. Firstly as a motorcyclist, these barriers are dangerous no question about it. Even at relatively low speeds these things have the potential to remove limbs. Now I dont know about you, but I take every precaution I can to keep myself safe when I am riding, try to mitigate the dangers that we face as bikers. There is nothing I can do to mitigate the danger these things pose to me, apart from not riding on roads that have them installed. For me that would mean that I would not be albe to ride very far at all. You dont have to be hooning to collide with one, something as simple as a tyre blowout or engine seizure can result in loss of control of your ride, a strong gust of wind can change your position on the road in a split second, heaven help you if it happens along side a WRB.

The second angle I take on them is simple. They do not stop cross over accidents! It is well documented that trucks go over them as do cars in some instances. They require a "catch zone" either side of them anyway as the ropes take up the impact of a vehicle. Where these things are installed as a median barrier with no catch zone, the impact of a vehicle will send it into the opposing lane no worries.

These things are dangerous, they are becoming more and more widespread, I believe the economics of the initial installation plays a bigger part than any safety worries to the powers that be. Interestingly enough, they are actually more expensive to maintain than concrete barriers long term.

TOTO

7th November 2008, 08:46

Now with summer on its way , and some good weather isn't it time we did another cheese cutter awareness ride ?

Gixxer 4 ever

7th November 2008, 09:48

So are we going to hold up traffic and fuck the Wellington and or Auckland public off?

Bitch Clark likes silent protests cos she doesn’t have to listen to them. If we are silent we may as well not bother cos Key will think the same on this issue. Hard boot camp for youth and long prison terms for repeat offenders and life for making a mistake and hitting a wire rope barrier. :confused:

So it is militant or nothing in my opinion. Just how many here would be militant to the point of being arrested? So how much do people here really care? Can you live with a conviction and or still do your job?

When I was in Auckland I have to admit the WRB were less threatening. Like all things we become less intimidated as time passes.

Katman

7th November 2008, 22:39

So are we going to hold up traffic and fuck the Wellington and or Auckland public off?

Looks like you're on your own there bro.

Knock yourself out.

:msn-wink:

sinfull

7th November 2008, 23:36

No wait !!!!!!!!

Edit : tooo late its tommorrow somewhere !

Gixxer 4 ever

8th November 2008, 07:45

When the Government wanted to put us outa business with the fart tax we took it to them on tractors and changed the law.
When the government wanted to shit on the trucking industry they took it to them and changed things.
But we only ride bikes so if we die who gives a shit? After all we still make riders aye?
And Clark did say she likes silent protest. She said it is good because she doesn’t have to listen to them. So I have been to two protest rides that she never had to listen to us. :girlfight:

However I realise people just don’t care cos we ran a helicopter fund raiser here, along with the rest of the KB regions, and we expected 30-40 bikes in the Hawkes Bay, and got 103 on the ride. We are off to the toy run tomorrow and should get 80-90 bikes? Maybe. We headed to Parliament with the WRB protest run in Wellington and got 6 bikes and when we went to Taupo for the protest ride I think we got 8 from Hawkes Bay. So maybe we are flogging a dead horse here.
If you really want to know what I think PM me cos I can’t express how I feel about this apathy on a public forum when it touches some people very closely.

MSTRS

8th November 2008, 09:25

We are off to the toy run tomorrow and should get 80-90 bikes?

There were some 200 last year. It's not the cause that attracts, but the perception of that cause.
I'd rather protest about something that could kill me (when that something is supposedly to protect me) than I would ride and donate a toy to some kid whose parent/s can't manage the money we give them.

WelshWizard

9th November 2008, 18:03

Now we have a new Mob in the beehive in 6 weeks has any one sounded out the Key issues with them over how they will be handling the WRB's?

If they are not interested then maybe its time to take a ride at the best time off day to snarl things up, after all if we are using the road to get from A to B and we do not brake the law IE stay inside the speed limit, no unicycles etc,

Who knows as they are new to power they may even look on they safety issue of these WRB's in a favorable manner.

TOTO

17th November 2008, 00:10

Isnt there a way to tie together the westpack helicopter ride (the big one) with a wire rope barrier protest ?

Gixxer 4 ever

17th November 2008, 05:14

Isnt there a way to tie together the westpack helicopter ride (the big one) with a wire rope barrier protest ?

We did carry the flag, literally, when we had the fund raiser here last year and we did announce the concerns we had when we ran the run last year.

I felt it just confused people. We asked for donations on the street for the Chopper and then talked about the WRB and some people got turned off by that and wanted to know what the money was going to be used for.

It is my opinion that the Chopper fund raiser should be for the Chopper alone. Just my 2cnts worth.

sunhuntin

17th November 2008, 11:07

if i recall, didnt some of the chopper crew agree with the danger of the barriers?

Hitcher

17th November 2008, 14:55

New government guys. New minister. New opportunity...

Mom

17th November 2008, 15:05

New government guys. New minister. New opportunity...

Quite. Gently, gently, catchy, monkey :yes:

MSTRS

17th November 2008, 15:22

New government guys. New minister. New opportunity...

Quite. Gently, gently, catchy, monkey :yes:
Actually, one would hope that a new minister will instruct the Transit minions in our 'favour'. But chances are that the same old shit will continue. You know...the one that goes "My advisors tell me...". And who do you think the advisors work for?
I would like to dump the cynical hat. But I seriously doubt that we will get any better response than before.
As others have said in the past...Time to get proactive. And militant.

Hitcher

17th November 2008, 16:07

The (newly) Hon Steven Joyce is the new Transport Minister. Get him while he's fresh.

Gixxer 4 ever

17th November 2008, 17:02

if i recall, didnt some of the chopper crew agree with the danger of the barriers?

Yes they hate them to. So did the cops that I talked to in Taupo when we started our protest ride. They even moved outa the way of our ride so as not to disrupt it. We have plenty of support on the ground. We gota get the message out or live with them.

Mom

17th November 2008, 17:02

The (newly) Hon Steven Joyce is the new Transport Minister. Get him while he's fresh.

Flick me his email address Hitcher, I may as well welcome him to his new portfolio.

SARGE

17th November 2008, 17:04

phil goff is a former biker and a good bastard

Hitcher

17th November 2008, 20:21

Flick me his email address Hitcher, I may as well welcome him to his new portfolio.

Try steven.joyce@ministers.govt.nz

WelshWizard

21st November 2008, 15:35

Once again the WRB's fail

http://www.3news.co.nz/News/Region/Auckland/Truck-crash-on-Southern-Motorway-causing-long-delays/tabid/753/articleID/80828/cat/138/Default.aspx

Fri, 21 Nov 2008 7:00a.m.

UPDATED AT 8:00AM
An accident involving a truck and a car on the southern motorway is causing traffic chaos and several hours of delays are expected.

One person is injured after the truck crashed into the back of their Mazda hatchback.

The truck, heading south, went through the median barrier near Conifer Grove in South Auckland, before colliding with the hatchback.

The car's driver was trapped beneath the truck, but has now been freed and taken to Middlemore hospital.

Transit NZ have told 3 News that the crash will take longer than 6 hours to clear.

One northbound lane and two southbound lanes are currently open.

3 News Video link
http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/National/tabid/309/articleID/80828/cat/138/Default.aspx#video

Mom

21st November 2008, 15:37

Once again the WRB's fail

Imagine that, they dont stop trucks!

yungatart

21st November 2008, 15:41

Time for some more action, I think.
While I have sympathies for those involved in today's accident, it seems wrong to not use this opportunity to make some headway on this issue.

Gixxer 4 ever

21st November 2008, 17:49

So what are we going to do. More to the point have we got any support left? Are there any riders that would ride to Wellington and take action to hold the traffic up and make a point? We could hold traffic up on both sides of the hills going in to Wellington and it would have to be rush hour and on a week day. We would need to have a group who speak well and have all the facts to meet with the minister to present our case and remind him/her that we have had enough. We could spend time holding traffic up in Wellington city and then head for home. I have no idea if anyone wants to do this but if we only have 20 bikes it is a waste of time. I see a heap of threads on here with WRB in them but as I am on dial up and working less than 28800 I just can’t spend the time to see what is in them. Can we work in this thread or are we going to start another?

What the fuck happened to the petition ? More to the point, what did BRONZ do about this? And we were told to back off cos a “Special group” within KB were working on this and they would keep us informed. By Christmas we were told. Last fucken year….. So what happened to that special group?

Or, and I wonder if this is the case, should we let this go and accept that shit happens and hope it doesn’t happen to us? Ie me and you. If most riders don’t care should we just accept it and live with it. Look it is no use chasing something for the masses if the masses don’t want or don’t care about it. Just maybe we are barking up the wrong tree and we should just let it go. Enjoy the riding and be aware of the WRB’s. Fucked if I know…………………

sAsLEX

21st November 2008, 17:59

Mom

21st November 2008, 18:00

What the fuck happened to the petition ? More to the point, what did BRONZ do about this?

I have the petition at the moment mate, read the forum!

What the fuck happened is that a bunch of people gave a shit load of time they did not have to spare to get the initial campaign started. I gave a shit load of time and money to the cause a few months ago. I am resting atm. Though, an email and phone call today means I am sort of onto it!

BRONZ have supported (I think) our campaign, their name is on www.cheesecutter.co.nz as supporting it. They do what they can as we all do.

And we were told to back off cos a “Special group” within KB were working on this and they would keep us informed. By Christmas we were told. Last fucken year….. So what happened to that special group? Fucked if I know…………………

What special group? When were we told to back off? Where did this Christmas deadline come from?

Things stagnated for ages I agree, I was part of the mouthy group demanding to know what the hell was happening! Instead of continuing to bleat, I got off my bum and actually did something. Not everyone agreed with what I did, too bad.

If you really want to DO something PM me, I am full of bright ideas, with little time, and less money to put them into play :yes: We do what we can. Do not sit on the sidelines complaining! DO SOMETHING if you nreally feel that strongly about it!

Mom

21st November 2008, 18:01

On the northern this afternoon I witnessed some plonker slam into the concrete median barrier, just slid along for a bit ...... if it had of been a WRB it would of been much like the Southern incident/

So you are a starter for a bit of a push then? I cant drive this on my own, I dont have the resources.

Katman

21st November 2008, 18:15

Just maybe we are barking up the wrong tree

My view on the matter.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=76883

MSTRS

21st November 2008, 18:25

The (newly) Hon Steven Joyce is the new Transport Minister. Get him while he's fresh.

Maybe this will help?
Dear Steven

Firstly, congratulations on your new position.

Now for the reason I write...

As a keen motorcyclist, I am amongst a large group who are gravely concerned at the amount and positioning of Wire Rope Barriers (WRB aka cheesecutters).
Many of us have made submissions/approaches to the previous government, in particular their Transport portfolio holders, but the responses were, not to put too fine a point on it, condescending and quite dismissive. There seems to be an increasing reliance on the use of this stuff to keep vehicles within their lane/s. No doubt, with a generally poor record of cross-over accidents (at least in some areas), some form of seperation is to be applauded. But the use of WRB is not much better than a bandaid. The stuff has a well-deserved reputation as a killer of motorcyclists all over the world, and is banned in many parts of Britain and Europe for this reason. It does not stop trucks. http://www.3news.co.nz/News/Region/Auckland/Truck-crash-on-Southern-Motorway-causing-long-delays/tabid/753/articleID/80828/cat/138/Default.aspx being just the latest incident. It does not retain low-slung sportscars, which go under the wires, with predictable results. It does not retain larger SUV-type vehicles, particularly if they are travelling at excessive spped.
The argument has been used that they are cheap and effective. I can supply many references to their ineffectiveness. And as for being cheap...every strike requires repair (at a cost). In areas where this is common (around SH1, Te Kauwhata, for instance), some parts of the barrier have been repaired/replaced many times. Smooth concrete barriers cost more upfront, but are effective at retaining vehicles, do not kill the oocupants of low cars or motorcyclists when struck at a shallow angle (the normal type of strike), and do not require maintenance after a strike. Furthermore, concrete has a life of 50+ years.
The argument is also used that WRB has a smaller footprint than concrete (Paekakariki coast road being the reference, and also the site of a truck crossover recently). This is only true until a strike. WRB is designed to absorb impact by flexing up to 3 metres. Again, depending on circumstance, with predictable results.
Whilst I fully accept that motorcycling carries a greater risk to life and limb, I do not accept that a barrier for safety purposes should actually increase the danger to me. I am most uncomfortable in their presence and no matter how much care I take in this situation, there is always the chance of something I have no control over putting me into the posts and wire. With predictable results. At 70kph I will lose limb/s. At 95kph, my life. The problem is that no matter what angle I strike the WRB at, there is a part of it with a narrow cross-section ready to act as a blade on my body. This is why we call them 'cheesecutters'.
In the last year or so, these things have been installed on the road edge in many places, on straight sections and on righthand bends. This is presumably because hitting the WRB is more desirable than what is behind it. I can supply instances of places where this has been done and there is little of danger directly off the road. And in parts of the Waikato it is down both sides and the centre line. This has become known as a killing zone for motorcyclists.
The motorcycle lobby group BRONZ has been actively lobbying against this form of barrier since they were first introduced. To date, their concerns have been ignored, either by the government of the day, or Transit (now NZTA). Yes, there has been only one motorcyclist death due to WRB in NZ, but with the increasing number of motorcycles on the roads and as the amount of this stuff increases around the country, that will change. And with incidents of failure steadily mounting, how long before this stuff is seen for what it is?

Transit officials 'promised to do further study ' on the matter, but quite frankly none is needed. Studies are available from all over the world. I suspect that their 'promise' was merely a way to keep us quiet, at least for a while longer. With this change of government, I hope there will be a change of attitude or policy regarding these barriers. It will take a directive from goverment to change things.

Thank you for taking the time to read the above.
I look forward to your response

Yours

yungatart

21st November 2008, 18:48

G4E, I'm still here, I'm still passionate about making these things safer for all of us, I'm still willing to do my bit, I'm still adding signatures to the petition, and I'm still willing to ride to Welly, stop traffic, speak to Ministers and do what ever is necessary.
I am NOT willing to accept second rate safety barriers because "they" think that is all I am worth!

Mom

21st November 2008, 18:57

My view on the matter.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=76883

We have heard your views, endlessly. Personally I am sick to death of them around the WRB issue. At risk of an infraction Steve...Fuck Off!

You may not give a shit about these things, some of us do. Some of us will do what we can to get some safer solution for bikers and other road users. Your constant griping around the "message" some bikers bring to the public eye does nothing to improve our chances of getting something done to ensure no more of these Un-safe barriers installed.

You are either for them or against them as far as I am concerned. If for them, fine. Say so and stand your ground. If against them do the same.

You have signed the petition asking for a full safety review.

Do not blur what some are trying to do by confusing the WRB safety issue with your campaign to get bikers to improve their image. These are 2 seperate issues!

Mom

21st November 2008, 19:00

yungatart

21st November 2008, 19:03

Nah, he's a good bloke is our G4E. One of the best...but frustrated at the length of time this is taking, and the lack of action.
Me too, TBH, but, he's a man...and trhey don't really do patience!

Gixxer 4 ever

21st November 2008, 19:10

I have the petition at the moment mate, read the forum!

What the fuck happened is that a bunch of people gave a shit load of time they did not have to spare to get the initial campaign started. I gave a shit load of time and money to the cause a few months ago. I am resting atm. Though, an email and phone call today means I am sort of onto it!

BRONZ have supported (I think) our campaign, their name is on www.cheesecutter.co.nz as supporting it. They do what they can as we all do.

What special group? When were we told to back off? Where did this Christmas deadline come from?

!

I was not having a go at you in anyway. I worked on the Hawkes Bay organizing group with MSTR and Tart. I am trying to get some people interested but I have a feeling that most people are over it, and or, not wanting to work on it any more. I pulled out after the poor turn out in Taupo and got despondent. I did the Wellington and Taupo rides because I wanted to make a difference. We don’t have these things in the Hawkes Bay, yet, but we pushed hard to get people to make a difference and come to the rides. I don’t have the answer but just maybe people don’t care. You put a lot in and thank you for that. Don’t take my rant as an attack on your input. I drop in here from time to time to see what is going on. My posting was to inspire people to start a revisit of the issue. I have spoken to a lot of bike riders about this in the last year and many agree with our opinion, but few would ride to protest.

How many names on the petition? How many do we need?
Why can't BRONZ make a difference?

We were out on a K/B ride and MSTRS told us he had been asked to join a special group in K/B to work on this. We were told to wait and see what came up. Not to fractionate the plans and wait. Now maybe this group tried to do something but nothing came of it. But we were not told who or what the result was. We looked at starting a BRONZ group here in the Hawkes Bay but after seeing how they worked we decided not to. Mary remembers the discussion and thinks it was on a K/B ride. Can you fill in the gaps John? I will ask W when I see him over the weekend and see if we can work out when it was. But it was after the Taupo ride. Some of us were really pist at the way we were treated by the conference people at that meeting. I will PM Wasp27 and see what recollection he has on this.

Gixxer 4 ever

21st November 2008, 19:17

Where is he then? Sitting on his dial up connection complaining...:yes:

Yea good on ya. Good luck…….. :bash:

Katman

21st November 2008, 19:19

At risk of an infraction Steve...Fuck Off!

Don't be scared of infractions Anne.

:msn-wink:

Mom

21st November 2008, 19:25

what you said

Well there you have it. A phone call to MSTRS and yungatart would have put you a bit more in the picture before you launched your "what is happening" post.

We have yet again another opportunity to do something. A truck crossed the WRB in Auckland today taking out an innocent motorist.

I am not about to leap on my bike and ride to Wellington because it happened. Perhaps you might like to join us and write a little message to our new Transport Minister instead of bitching on here about what is not happening! Or heaven forbid, come up with some idea of how we can put this campaign together as a cohesive unit.

Sorry I am grumpy tonight, and have not taken kindly to you coming on here with no knowledge of the work/time/energy/money that has gone into this, and complaining.

Mom

21st November 2008, 19:33

Yea good on ya. Good luck…….. :bash:

NO mate, good for you. When you have all decided where I should send the petition for the next push let me know...I am out!

Gixxer 4 ever

21st November 2008, 20:30

NO mate, good for you. When you have all decided where I should send the petition for the next push let me know...I am out!

How many names do we have?

Sorry I am grumpy tonight, and have not taken kindly to you coming on here with no knowledge of the work/time/energy/money that has gone into this, and complaining. !

I was trying to get up to speed and, as I said above, trying in my own way to stimulate discussion. I will retire to my own part of K/B and I am sure MSTRS and Tart will let me know when you need more of my help.

MSTRS

22nd November 2008, 08:38

My posting was to inspire people to start a revisit of the issue. I have spoken to a lot of bike riders about this in the last year and many agree with our opinion, but few would ride to protest.

That is precisely the problem. I have spoken personally with hundreds of people from all walks of life. Almost without exception, none of them think this sort of barrier is a good thing. They all admit to being intimidated when driving in their vicinity. With the exception of a certain semi-illiterate Hastings rider, there isn't a biker I know of in this region that supports these barriers.
9 years of being ignored and having unwanted policies foisted on us has worked it's magic of increasing apathy...you know how it goes..."Why bother - They aren't interested".
It will take another death (or 2) to get people off their arses. I've said this before. It will happen, given time. However, I am not volunteering for this 'honour'. And I doubt that anyone else will, or believe it could happen to them.
Those of us who are passionate about this subject need to keep up with our efforts of informing the public about the danger of this shit, and writing to MPs etc.
When the next death occurs we will be in a better position to 'use' that.

WelshWizard

22nd November 2008, 09:51

I noticed that the Accident was on the news most of the day, but come 6 pm it vanished, one has to ask why?

Mom

22nd November 2008, 09:53

I noticed that the Accident was on the news most of the day, but come 6 pm it vanished, one has to ask why?

A cynical man I see :yes:

WelshWizard

22nd November 2008, 09:57

A cynical man I see :yes:

Naturally, of course I am.

MSTRS

22nd November 2008, 09:57

I noticed that the Accident was on the news most of the day, but come 6 pm it vanished, one has to ask why?

I only learned of it from a single brief report on TheRock news at 8am.
Yet we are regaled for a week with things like Heilen Klerke tripping over in a cafe.
Much more important, eh?

WelshWizard

22nd November 2008, 10:23

I only learned of it from a single brief report on TheRock news at 8am.
Yet we are regaled for a week with things like Heilen Klerke tripping over in a cafe.
Much more important, eh?

One has to asked was there presure on TV3 to be quiet about it

MSTRS

22nd November 2008, 10:35

One has to asked was there presure on TV3 to be quiet about it

This sort of thing can be political, so maybe. But TV3 is not owned by the government, they should be independent of pressure like that.

WelshWizard

23rd November 2008, 11:39

Has anyone heard how the driver of the car is doing, all they said was he was taken to hospital in critical condition.

racefactory

24th November 2008, 08:03

I think if this campaign needs anything- it's got to tell us exactly what a 'cheese cutter' is, since i can not find that vital information anywhere. It's just a suggestion.

This brings me to the question- what the fuck is a cheese cutter? I've searched many threads on this first page with no luck...

Katman

24th November 2008, 08:05

I think if this campaign needs anything- it's got to tell us what exactly is a 'cheese cutter', since i can not find that vital information anywhere. It's just a suggestion.

This brings me to the question- what the fuck is a cheese cutter? I've searched many threads on this first page with no luck...

Mannnn, are you in for a spanking!

racefactory

24th November 2008, 08:11

Mannnn, are you in for a spanking!

No really, I couldn't find the information anywhere.

I'm interested in any means of safety for motorcyclists... don't mean to be rude...

Mom

24th November 2008, 08:27

No really, I couldn't find the information anywhere.

I'm interested in any means of safety for motorcyclists... don't mean to be rude...

Not being rude at all mate.

Have a look at this

www.cheesecutter.co.nz

Cheesecutter is a name that has been used for the Wire Rope Barriers you see as median dividers and roadside barriers all over the country. Cheesecutter was used because the wire ropes look a little like a cheese cutter, that and the fact they actually do cut people in half.

MSTRS

24th November 2008, 08:50

... the wire ropes look a little like a cheese cutter, that and the fact they actually do cut people in half.

And if the wires don't, the posts will.
They are 'cheap', dangerous and a poor substitute for a barrier.

Mom

18th December 2008, 19:37

heads up to those that have not seen this

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=88379

gixxer-king

3rd January 2009, 15:18

Just a suggestion but maybe if we tear them all out for them traNZit will kindly put SAFETY barriers where they put dividers by mistake.

tri boy

17th January 2009, 16:11

swbarnett

19th January 2009, 15:13

, but no mention of the cheese cutter.
Hmmmmm, something smells.
I think this might explain it:

"Barriers prevent cars from running off the road or having head-on collisions."

Clearly this is not true for WRBs so maybe this is why they left them out.

Is this maybe a Freudian slip?

MSTRS

29th January 2009, 13:52

Maybe this will help?
Dear Steven

Firstly, congratulations on your new position.

Now for the reason I write...

..............................
I look forward to your response

Yours

At last, a response. For what it's worth...Steve/Katman - is that you?
I'm working on a reply. Watch this space

McDuck

29th January 2009, 14:40

At last, a response. For what it's worth...Steve/Katman - is that you?
I'm working on a reply. Watch this space

The sad bit is he has said a number of very good points, he has also asked for further proof which we have. If you need a hand with anything let me know.

Hitcher

29th January 2009, 14:59

His officials who wrote the letter are probably hoping that that response will make you go away. Don't give them everything in one hit. A tactic for such exchanges via a Minister is to create seeds of doubt in the Minister's mind about the veracity and motivation of the responses of their officials.

idb

29th January 2009, 15:05

Give Michael Moore a call, I bet he could make a bloody good documentary about them.

Katman

29th January 2009, 18:13

At last, a response. For what it's worth...Steve/Katman - is that you?
I'm working on a reply. Watch this space

And that's exactly the response that you should have expected.

Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

yungatart

30th January 2009, 07:22

And that's exactly the response that you should have expected.

Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

And yours does???

Thanks for your advice Hitcher....I shall be sending my own letter to our friend Steven soon....

Hitcher

30th January 2009, 08:19

Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

MSTRS

30th January 2009, 08:30

Your condescending manner does no motorcyclists any favours.

Go back to your dictionary and see if you can work out what condescending really means.
Is that condescending enough for you?

MSTRS

30th January 2009, 09:51

Having done some more research, particularly into claims made in Steven Joyce's response, I have now sent him this...
Steven Joyce
Minister of Transport

Dear Steven

Thank you for your response to my email, regarding concerns over cheesecutter barriers. You make some valid points re speed, alcohol etc, however that is another issue, and not one that necessarily pertains to barrier strikes.

Your advice that no country has removed barriers is erroneous.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/concern-over-wire-rope-crash-barriers-sparks-eu-review-1138376.html
In this report you will notice that the Netherlands are doing just that. Plus mention of other EU countries that are no longer installing them, if not replacing as time passes
http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/barriersgettingthere.html
http://www.network.mag-uk.org/barriers/barriersnmcu.html

Your advice that no motorcycle deaths have occurred in conjunction with WRB in Sweden is also erroneous.
http://epubl.luth.se/1402-1617/2005/233/LTU-EX-05233-SE.pdf
On pages 65 and 66 you will find that WRB featured as the cause of death or severe injury as a result of impact.

My statement that these barriers ‘have a well-deserved reputation as killers of motorcyclists’ really requires no formal proof. I was unable to separate the pertinent section, but if you scroll to the entry for July 31, 2008… .
http://www.bikenut.com.au/blog.php
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/EDITORIAL/BIKES/news/41596.html
http://www.bikesonshow.com/viewtopic.php?t=616
I will agree it is likely that some of these deaths were due to inappropriate speed, as so many are regardless of what is impacted. However, the death in Auckland has not been attributed to speed and we are still awaiting the reason from the SCU or Coroner. Frame failure (of the welds holding the steering head to the main frame) of the bike model involved is a well known problem around the world, and is quite likely the reason here, due to the way the bike ended up in 2 pieces.

To expect all WRB to be removed/replaced may be a pipe dream, but it is not too much to expect that motorcyclists’ needs will be the guiding factor in selecting a suitable barrier for the safety of all.
http://www.acem.eu/NWSL/newsl17/eurorap.htm

And finally, I note that you make no response to the fact that large or heavy vehicles are not contained?
Failure of a containment system is surely as serious as deaths caused by it?

Regards

Morepower

17th April 2009, 22:40

MSTRS

18th April 2009, 08:53

....$ saving is at the expense of knowingly increasing chances of death/ injury to some minority road users ( i.e motorcyclists ) .
Bloody sickening but I am sure thats the truth of it.

Correct.
As regards my responding email (as you quoted), no reply was forthcoming. I have send a 'reminder'...

I note that no response was issued after the referred email, which dealt with the subject of Wire Rope Barriers, with links to a wealth of information and statistics on their unsuitability for motorcyclists' safety. It is my understanding that Transit (NZTA) have just turned down a proposed retrofittable safety cover for WRB as well as a bottom rail for the posts in the Armco system. They cite costs in the WRB case, and no deaths to Armco post strikes (which is a lie...the latest I am aware of was on SH5 22/2/09 and I was there). With talk of more WRB to be installed north of Paraparaumu, I wonder how many deaths will force a rethink on barrier safety as it pertains to the vulnerable.

steve_t

21st May 2009, 15:56

Being relatively new to bikes and living in Hamiltron, I thought I'd bump this thread and see if there was any further progress or any upcoming events to support the replacement of these.
I went to www.cheesecutter.co.nz and signed up to the petition.
What else?

MSTRS

21st May 2009, 17:02

Nothing coming up in the short term, but keep an eye out. You can also 'have a word' with your local MPs. They love statistics (when they are quoting them) but you can find lots of relevant info here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=62450)

oldrider

24th May 2009, 09:16

There has been no abatement in the erection of cheesecutter barriers in the South Island! (as far as I can see)

They are flat out putting them up, down here on highway 83, between Otematata and Aviemore power station!

There are none so deaf as those who "will not listen"! (LTSA) :doh:

NighthawkNZ

24th May 2009, 09:52

Interesting. Reading between the lines in Mr Joyce's reply it would seem that if an accident is attributable to say speeding or alcohol ,for example, then the fact that a barrier may have been a contributing factor to severe injury or death is irrelevant in the eyes of the statisticians.

ahhh the power of statistics... make em say anything you want with the same data input as every one else... and you are quite correct and that won't change either.

steve_t

24th May 2009, 19:25

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that." :laugh::laugh:

yungatart

25th May 2009, 07:48

Did anyone see the lycra clad treadlies and pedestrians on the harbour bridge yesterday...wouldn't it be great if we could get a huge protest ride like that up and running!

Mom

25th May 2009, 07:59

Did anyone see the lycra clad treadlies and pedestrians on the harbour bridge yesterday...wouldn't it be great if we could get a huge protest ride like that up and running!

Funny you should say that, I made the same comment yesterday when I saw the number of people out there. The police would not take kindly to it I am sure, but enough people taking part and they would actually be powerless to do anything about it. They can not arrest hundreds of people at a time. Not so sure the Harbour Bridge is the right place to do something like that though. Auckland is a big city with huge numbers of vehicles on the roads. Pick any main arterial route and you could create chaos.

yungatart

25th May 2009, 08:04

Particularly at a long weekend.....you could jam the Akl motorway system up for hours!:eek:

sunhuntin

25th May 2009, 08:35

hell, i think if something like that was planned, i might be convinced to take a weekend off work and ride up with you lot! LOL.

Quasievil

25th May 2009, 08:43

We did a big protest ride and blocked a lane at least, had media coverage tv etc the whole show...............nought happened however

carver

25th May 2009, 19:33

We did a big protest ride and blocked a lane at least, had media coverage tv etc the whole show...............nought happened however

my time in politics taught me you got to be in the long haul to make things happen..
keep at it and things may change

Quasievil

25th May 2009, 20:01

my time in politics taught me you got to be in the long haul to make things happen..
keep at it and things may change

nah got better things to do frankly

pyrocam

29th May 2009, 21:59

something I have discovered recently is that certain 'in progress' bills can get reset when there is a change of government (eg http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=80087)

I have a friend in the beehive looking at where we are at with our current request and if there is nothing, maybe its time to re-approach the new government?

will it take another horrific death for anyone to do anything about it?

Pixie

31st May 2009, 10:28

http://rideforever.co.nz/road_awareness/hazardous_road.html

Interesting that WRB have not been included in this ACC safety message.
Seems all other barrier types will maim you/kill you, but no mention of the cheese cutter.
Hmmmmm, something smells.
WRB's are the exception,of course.Contact with them is like wafting on to a bed of rose petals and being licked by kittens.

carver

31st May 2009, 21:25

i quite enjoy throwing empty beer bottles at them out of the car

MSTRS

8th July 2009, 09:47

Correct.
As regards my responding email (as you quoted), no reply was forthcoming. I have send a 'reminder'...

Finally - a response. This bloke sounds quite open to reason, but his 'official' advice (as usual) leaves a lot to be desired. I know he is being lied to by NZTA - the bloke in Paraparaumu who was developing safety covers was sent packing, but it's not public knowledge as such - so difficult to cite as proof of lies. Can anyone else come up with provable examples?

steve_t

8th July 2009, 10:13

So does that say that wire barriers are favoured because in an emergency, vehicles can drive over/through them?

R6_kid

8th July 2009, 13:14

So does that say that wire barriers are favoured because in an emergency, vehicles can drive over/through them?

They can be temporarily taken down so that a diversion of traffic can be made. They can also be fixed fairly quickly once any crash investigation has taken place.

After doing a small study on the barriers for a university project I strongly believe that what we should be fighting for is the installation of protective sheathing on ALL barriers, both wire rope and W-section. The wire rope barrier actually does its job really well, just that it's design is to stop cars and small trucks. The addition of the sheathing actually does a number of things

Makes it safer for cars
Makes it MUCH safer for bikers
Helps contain debris in when a vehicle collides with the barrier

There are NO disadvantages to installing the sheathing other than the cost and time, but that is to be expected. They are not expensive as such, just that it is an added cost to the existing system. However it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that the benefits are worth the money.

Ixion

8th July 2009, 15:14

I had a meeting today with Ms Darien Fenton the labour Shadow Minister on Transport Safety . She was interested in the cheesecutter campaign. She knew of it . And her husband is apparently a new biker (or maybe a BAB). And a young chick in the office knew about Daniel (volunteered his name) . She has asked for literature and information and indicated that she wants to harass the government on the subject. I will send her what I have - anyone else who has material , her email is darien.fenton@parliament.govt.nz Don't hold your breath - her predecessor Harry was the guy who sat on his hands. But dripping water will wear away the most obdurate stone.

steve_t

8th July 2009, 17:21

Ixion

8th July 2009, 17:50

Got a bigger one that her. Phil goff is an ex biker .

And claims it "is still a passion"

... Oh, I don't know. He [Goff] is quite keen to tell me that people are surprised to hear he rode big motorbikes "for most of my life, and that's still a passion". ..

Full story http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10579633

EDIT:

Nortons apparently. But he's sold it.

Ocean1

8th July 2009, 18:50

They can be temporarily taken down so that a diversion of traffic can be made.

Aye, they can. By closing the road completely in order to comply with safety regulations, (yes, even where there IS the 7M median recommended for WRBs). And then calling the specially trained personel (from wherever they might happen to be), who will then spend several hours using the special equipment (which, with luck, won't be too many hours drive away).

Long before any of this, of course, the scene of the crime is utterly innaccesible due to terminal traffic congestion. It has therefore at no time ever actually happened in any timeframe that can reasonably be said to be any more beneficial to traffic flow than, say, asking the same tow truck that arrived to dispose of the wrecks to shuffle a couple of concrete barriers around. Just as a random example.

They can also be fixed fairly quickly once any crash investigation has taken place.

As opposed to, say, concrete barriers, (to take yet another purely random example), which don't actually need fixing at all. At most a quick nudge with that same tow truck to re-align them...

The wire rope barrier actually does its job really well, just that it's design is to stop cars and small trucks.

They do a good job in some cases. They'd do a better job over a wider range of incidents if they were installed as per generally accepted guidelines. I don't believe they offer any performance benefits compared to, say, concrete barriers.

For example.

There are NO disadvantages to installing the sheathing other than the cost and time, but that is to be expected. They are not expensive as such, just that it is an added cost to the existing system.

Probably right. Except ANY extra costs associated with WRB installation would make them more expensive than, for example.... Oh I duno, say, concrete barriers. Which don't need any fucking additional costs.

RiderInBlack

9th July 2009, 06:08

swbarnett

10th July 2009, 16:40

"Centennial Highway where a WRWB was fitted, there was not enough room for a concrete barrier" Steven Joyce MOT.

And yet we have a very movable concrete barrier on the Auckland Harbour Bridge:whistle: Not enough room:argh: What a load of twaddle.
Not only that but don't WRMBs require a 3m buffer zone from traffic on either side?

Sounds wide enough for a concrete barrier to me.

MSTRS

10th July 2009, 18:01

Not only that but don't WRMBs require a 3m buffer zone from traffic on either side?

Sounds wide enough for a concrete barrier to me.

Some time ago, I read an installation guideline by one of the manufacturers....it stated (if I recall correctly) that a separation of at least 2 metres from traffic was a must. I cannot find that item, despite hours of searching. One of the lies that NZTA spouts is that it always installs to recommended practice. If someone could find that item, I think Mr Joyce would be very interested.

Genestho

3rd August 2009, 11:21

Hey Guys

Just wondering how this campaign is going?

Is someone still lobbying in this area?
Is there any supportive cited research for alternative barriers?

There could be an opportunity within my lobby group - "Crossroads", to work on median barriers.
There has been a proposal of adoption of policy in this area!

I am now on the consultation list with Ministry of Transport for the Roadsafety strategy to 2020!

If someone could pm me where this at, perhaps you could be put in touch with the proposed spokesperson for safer median barriers. (This will not be me!)

Ocean1

3rd August 2009, 18:25

Hey Guys

Just wondering how this campaign is going?

I swear prolifically at all the ones in my neighbourhood with religious regularity.

Does that count?

Mom

3rd August 2009, 18:29

p.dath

7th September 2009, 23:34

I'm thinking about making a submission to the Safer Journeys discussion document at the moment.

At one place in the document they mention that 23% of fatalities are because of head on accidents, and 90% of those could be prevented with median barriers.

In their call for comment I might re-inforce the danger to motorcyclists of cheese cutters, as if they do proceed with installing more median bariers then we want to make sure the 90% of peoples lives saved are not at the expense of motorcyclists lives.

Mudfart

1st November 2009, 10:07

I live just off state highway between Huntly and Meremere, and those of you who know the area, know that its cheesecutter country the whole length of highway. I also work peculiar hours so I get to see all the retards that drive these roads, and theres more than Ive ever seen, and Ive lived 25 yrs in Auckland!
Firstly, nearly every day, someone has hit the median barrier and wiped out a part of it. This proves it saves lives, consistently.
Second, the govt or LTSA thinks they are saving millions by NOT putting in a concrete median barrier.
I am wondering though, how much concrete would need repairing, replacing compared to the miles and miles of steel wire etc, that they have to replace now? Bearing in mind that truck trailer units are also very guilty of wiping out big lengths of cheesecutter.
Thirdly, people in Waikato are crap on the roads, (maybe its Aucklanders passing through?). I drive 10 mins to work and can count 5 vehicles with only one working headlight,every night, guaranteed. And on twistee bendee corners, cars coming at you into the turns, will come either OVER the centreline or have their tyres on it.
So be careful down here.

idleidolidyll

1st November 2009, 10:19

What did this acheive?
Was a single kilometer of cheese cutter barrier removed?

Somehow I doubt it.

IMO these rides are well policed pieces of "feel good": We feel good that we did something but nothing actually happens.

And as long as we merely go for a ride to protest or gather at a car park or allow the cops to usher us about: nothing will change.

We need to get militant and we can do this within the law. How many people do you see getting tickets for doing 70kph on the open road?

Imagine dozens of groups of bikers across the country in bunches of 4 or 6 or 10 or more strung out so cars and trucks can't pass ALL DOING 70kph!

What if we ALWAYS parked our bikes sideways in full size car parks?

Our so called leaders would then get the opportunity to put our case to the media instead of largely being ignored.

If the government is serious about reducing bike accidents they would publish the fact that cars cause 'most' of these, they would sweep the roads after road works and those road works would be required to be up to a standard suitable for single track vehicles as well as cars and trucks.

Going for a ride is just a wee novelty for the public; they and the government will continue to ignoreus until and unless we take real action on the streets.

swbarnett

2nd November 2009, 00:12

Firstly, nearly every day, someone has hit the median barrier and wiped out a part of it. This proves it saves lives, consistently.
Were you there to see that there actually was opossing traffic at the time? Or how far over the centre line the car would've travelled without the cheese cutter? Damage to the barrier is proof that something hit it - no more.

Second, the govt or LTSA thinks they are saving millions by NOT putting in a concrete median barrier.
I am wondering though, how much concrete would need repairing, replacing compared to the miles and miles of steel wire etc, that they have to replace now?
It has been shown overseas that the long term cost of cheese cutters is higher than that of concrete barriers.

Mudfart

4th November 2009, 09:06

Were you there to see that there actually was opossing traffic at the time? Or how far over the centre line the car would've travelled without the cheese cutter? Damage to the barrier is proof that something hit it - no more.

I think if someone is to hit the cheesecutter with such ferocity to rip it apart, and then continue down ripping it up for upto 50-100m, on a state highway, I would guess 1)theres not much chance of something NOT being in the otha lane, and 2)these people either get tangled in the median strip and cant get out again, or shudnt be driving coz they fall asleep, or are on some form of conscience altering "medication". I wud also argue that a truck or cage that goes ova the centreline is unacceptable, for any length of time or distance, fullstop. It is interesting to know that a concrete strip is cheaper though. Begs the big question, doesn't it?

swbarnett

4th November 2009, 15:50

It is interesting to know that a concrete strip is cheaper though. Begs the big question, doesn't it?
Cheaper in the long term. Unfortunately TPB only look at the initial outlay.

rigley

4th March 2010, 10:33

Hi Everyone,

2nd post, so go easy on me!

I live near the new Ruby Bay bypass by Nelson and interestingly I done a job for an engineer who is working there. We got into a conversation over bikes and he told me they were going to use "cheesecutter wire" for all sections that needed a crash barrier, he raised the issue over safety concerns with the Tasman District Council and even looked into the costs involved for a conventional crash barrier which were negligible. Seems like a no brainer to me with the costs involved to ACC to support one fallen rider who gets injured by such an archaic contraption, maybe never being able to work again for the rest of there lives, assuming they survive that is!

Now this bypass has not been finished yet, anyone know what can be done about it?

Cheers.

Urano

29th March 2010, 10:08

:shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::s hit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit:
:shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::s hit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit:
:shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::s hit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit::shit:

WHAT THE HELL ARE THAT?????????? ARE THEY COMPLETELY CRAZY???????????

i can't believe that somewhere in the world somebody thought to put stuff like that in the meaning of "street safety".
we are involved in a similar fight with european administration to make mandatory a new type of guard rail, cause the ones actually installed through our streets are like knives to a biker sliding in to it.
we've achieved a good result last year and bruxelles gave us a good point: now the real problem is to make every single country to adopt the new guardrail.

here our mark: http://www.motociclisti-incolumi.com/public/images/GuardRailAssassini.png
(i've put the address cause the image is pretty large)

and here a page that talks of it: http://www.motociclisti-incolumi.com/public/portale/index.php?ind=news&op=news_show_single&ide=280

it's italian but pictures are enough....

please, continue to fight for this: i don't want to ride on a street with that.... that... oohhh... i don't have words...

inlinefour

6th April 2010, 19:03

Latte

6th April 2010, 19:18

Urano

6th April 2010, 20:02

What is wrong with you people? There are plenty of things out there that are more dangerous, than a wire road barrier. If you cannot cope with any of the ones around NZ. Then you either need to leave NZ or stop riding on NZ roads. This is really getting pathetic and some of you should really know better.

...or not coming to nz at all...
this is not my intention, obviously, and i do agree with you that there are a lot of dangers out there.
but this is not a good reason to give up.

i wrote the post 'cause i've seen you a little dispirited, and i think this could be something that worth the battle.

you know, lookin' at you from here, i see interesting differences about the way you think at the road in our countries.
you are much more on the essence of a problem, way more consistent, i'd say...
here we are focused on the look first of all, on how things will appear rather than if it will work or not. for example we have different speed limits on the highways in consideration of the weather: 130 if sunny, 110 kmh if it's raining.
and everybody would say "woa, gooooood, this is a wise law" ya. unfortunately it is impossible to set the speed cameras to two different values, cops have old instruments that are difficult to use in the rain, and there are even discussion on "when exactly is "raining"?". so the result is that if you try to follow the rules under the rain you'll very likely to be flattened from behind... as you see italy is a pretty stupid place.

gettin back on topic, here we have frequent accidents with enduro bikers decapitated with wires put in the countryside to limit properties: when riding are completely invisible...
those "cheesecutters" remind me those accidents...
so, in the very rare cases you have thing to get better, well, fight for it. you can do it.

inlinefour

6th April 2010, 20:21

Reading a lot of your recent posts you seem to have a real chip on your shoulder, or you're bored and trolling. Either way it's getting pretty old. No one is forcing you to read these topics, or even the forum in general ............

........ don't let the door hit you on the way out. Have a nice day.

I think the door hit some of you in the head when you came in.

No one is forcing you to ride on the road if you don't like any of the hazards.

No matter what anyone says here, this is the way that it is. The fact that there is more here that cannot see this, just shows that your the ones with the problems. No me, but its funny as hell reading all the bullshit replies from people trying to avoid reality.

As you were.

Urano

6th April 2010, 21:16

this is the way that it is.

and it is also the way that it should be and you like it to be?

swbarnett

6th April 2010, 21:21

There are plenty of things out there that are more dangerous, than a wire road barrier.
Very true. To me the issue is not that they're dangerous. It's that a "safety" system actually makes the situation worse. Also the fact that we are deliberatly left out of the discussion when it comes to what type of barrier to install. Not to mention that they are installed because they're cheap when concrete is cheaper and more convenient for all in the long term.

bogan

6th April 2010, 21:33

Very true. To me the issue is not that they're dangerous. It's that a "safety" system actually makes the situation worse. Also the fact that we are deliberatly left out of the discussion when it comes to what type of barrier to install. Not to mention that they are installed because they're cheap when concrete is cheaper and more convenient for all in the long term.

You left out the main bit, the safety system does make it better overall, however they are completely ignoring a minority of road users for which it makes the situation worse. They complain that bikes are too dangerous yet the mindset is to ignore bike safety completely.

And at IL4, some of us don't do the protesting etc for ourselves, we do it to preserve the biking community of NZ, if it gets too dangerous (or perceived as such) or too expensive (see ACC levies) then biker numbers will drop and many will miss out on the awesomeness that is riding :D

inlinefour

7th April 2010, 18:19

Very true. To me the issue is not that they're dangerous. It's that a "safety" system actually makes the situation worse. Also the fact that we are deliberatly left out of the discussion when it comes to what type of barrier to install. Not to mention that they are installed because they're cheap when concrete is cheaper and more convenient for all in the long term.

You miss the point completely. Anyone who complains about the wire barriers because they ride a motorcycle, is just being selfish. Its about making NZ roads safer for everyone and not just a minority here. The fact is that they are here, they are here to stay and no amount of bleating to anyone is going to change this. It is entirely up to you if you continue to try. But all it is likely to do is make you all frustrated the longer it goes on for. Having me here stating the obvious, would appear to frustrate some also. But at least it gives me plenty to laugh about. :yes:

Urano

7th April 2010, 19:04

so you don't think that a movement of people can change things in your country? i thought nz was a democracy.... (i know i know... the queen...)
even our guard rails were there to remain, but a lot of people in europe have said that they were wrong, so at the end we managed to make clear the error.

talking about motorcyclists is not being selfish, is only to remark the fact that riders are (sadly and by far) the main part of incidents injured victims, with all the social related costs for everyone in the country, also for the cagers...
so it's everyone's interest to make safer barrier for bikers...
and, seeing at the picture posted in this thread, those barriers are not so safe for cagers as well...

listen, from the other part of the world, as i've said, you seem a very advanced and intelligent country. there are no paradise on this earth anyway, so this is one thing i hope you could make better as everyone here wanted to do. then is you...

MSTRS

7th April 2010, 20:26

The whole point of the 'resistance' is that for a safety system to be utilised, it must not make things more dangerous for any segment of the potential 'users'.
And as for WRB, they are a cheap compromise, albeit effective in most cases.
I don't believe that any country has yet to use them retrofitted with a sleeve (or whatever) to cover the cutty slicey bits, and many countries in Europe are in the process of removing these abominations due to pressure from the vulnerable.

swbarnett

7th April 2010, 21:05

You miss the point completely. Anyone who complains about the wire barriers because they ride a motorcycle, is just being selfish. Its about making NZ roads safer for everyone and not just a minority here. The fact is that they are here, they are here to stay and no amount of bleating to anyone is going to change this. It is entirely up to you if you continue to try. But all it is likely to do is make you all frustrated the longer it goes on for. Having me here stating the obvious, would appear to frustrate some also. But at least it gives me plenty to laugh about. :yes:
Imagine for a moment if WRBs saved the lives of all people except Maoris. They would be torn down so fast we'd never even realise that they were up in the first place. What makes one "minority" any more important than another?

Putting up a "safety" barrier that increases the risk for one section of the community is descrimination and makes no sense when there is an alternative that improves the safety of all.

monkeymcbean

7th April 2010, 21:16

The most effective soluton would be to find a fast cutting tool, and have a cordinated working bee one night...im not being selfish im just a doer.

swbarnett

7th April 2010, 21:25

The most effective soluton would be to find a fast cutting tool, and have a cordinated working bee one night...im not being selfish im just a doer.
Sounds like a good idea until you get killed by the wiplash.

Katman

7th April 2010, 21:30

Sounds like a good idea until you get killed by the wiplash.

Now that would be irony.

thealmightytaco

7th April 2010, 21:42

You miss the point completely. Anyone who complains about the wire barriers because they ride a motorcycle, is just being selfish. Its about making NZ roads safer for everyone and not just a minority here. The fact is that they are here, they are here to stay and no amount of bleating to anyone is going to change this. It is entirely up to you if you continue to try. But all it is likely to do is make you all frustrated the longer it goes on for. Having me here stating the obvious, would appear to frustrate some also. But at least it gives me plenty to laugh about. :yes:

You talkin' crazy man, nothing is here to stay. Fart tax was about to be here to stay till someone drove a tractor up the parliament steps, and our rego's were gonna be astronomic till bikoi's etc, reducing them to mere stratospheric. If folks want to let the powers that be know that they things these are lethal to those not in a cage because they forgot to think of that scenario, then so be it.

You've been brainwashed by the system man, like, far out.

And selfish? Ya reckon? If it kills 4 motorcyclists to save one SUV, does that make them okay? That sounds selfish on the part of the SUV to me. And believe it or not, there are options that are safe for all, and that's all anyone's trying to let anyone know.

monkeymcbean

8th April 2010, 18:43

Sounds like a good idea until you get killed by the wiplash.

Oh, I must be mis informed, I thought the worse part of these barriers was the steel uprights and how close they are installed, as a motorcyclist sliding into these barriers are more likely to loose limbs on these as you have no way of steering yourself between them, especially sliding in on a angle, I thought in some countries they have now gone after the install and wrapped the uprights in padding of some sort. Of course the wires would be treacherous but is that were the majority of motorcyclists get caught up in if going into them happens?
So by hypothetically suggesting a working bee I meant cutting the steel uprights off at the concrete foundation, thus it might not interfere with the wire tension, infact it would loosen them.

monkeymcbean

8th April 2010, 19:16

Okay, its most likely covered here somewhere in all these posts, but I think they can modidfy these wire rope barriers to make them safer for motorcyclist, buy adding a top rail and a runner board along the sides..(broken down simply here), The lake road from Kingston to Queenstown.....oh have they been busy lining almost the entire road to the outside, so stupid dumb drivers aren't in fear of slipping off into the lake. If drivers paid attention to there driving, you are not going to fall off the road, it looks like a babies cot lining the road.
Meanwhile the road surface is left to slump away and be so lumpy from digging up to put wires underneath etc, its terrible.
If it is for tourist sake so they feel 'safer' about travelling the raods well stuff them, my wages rely on them but I'd sooner eat dirt if it come to it than putting up with cheap fucking crap like wire rope barriers installed to pander to a section of people that have not the ability or incline to keep there cars firmly planted on the road. Phew!
I just think it gives people a false sense of security which then leads to slack driving practice and attention. Hmm feel better now!

MSTRS

9th April 2010, 08:44

Okay, its most likely covered here somewhere in all these posts, but I think they can modidfy these wire rope barriers to make them safer for motorcyclist, buy adding a top rail and a runner board along the sides..(broken down simply here),

Not as far as I know. There are various products utilised with Armco (mototub is a tube laid under the rail to cover the posts). But nothing for WRB. A fellow in Paraparaumu developed a sleeve to cover this shit...Transit/NZTA did not want to know.
For us, the wire/s are almost as bad as the posts, but what the wires do is 'direct' a body into the posts...chop chop...
The posts are made of friable metal (hard, but brittle). We don't break them, but cars do. Technically, a heavy-ish vehicle with a steel bar poking out the side could drive along, smashing all the posts as it goes.
A gas-axe or large bolt cutters could part the wire/s. The now-loose wire whipping free would not be a problem to the person doing the cutting...but don't stand down-wire of that person...

swbarnett

9th April 2010, 12:30

Oh, I must be mis informed, ...
I was referring to suggested attemps to cut the wires as a way of destroying the WRBs. Because of the enormous tension the wire is under any attempt to cut them would result in a sudden and potentially fatal release of said pressure.

Bald Eagle

9th April 2010, 12:43

I was referring to suggested attemps to cut the wires as a way of destroying the WRBs. Because of the enormous tension the wire is under any attempt to cut them would result in a sudden and potentially fatal release of said pressure.

A short length of cortex stand well clear and sweet as .

swbarnett

9th April 2010, 16:18

A short length of cortex stand well clear and sweet as .
Sounds like a plan. Now who has the guts (or perhaps stupidity) to implement it?

inlinefour

10th April 2010, 19:57

You talkin' crazy man, nothing is here to stay. Fart tax was about to be here to stay till someone drove a tractor up the parliament steps, and our rego's were gonna be astronomic till bikoi's etc, reducing them to mere stratospheric. If folks want to let the powers that be know that they things these are lethal to those not in a cage because they forgot to think of that scenario, then so be it.

You've been brainwashed by the system man, like, far out.

And selfish? Ya reckon? If it kills 4 motorcyclists to save one SUV, does that make them okay? That sounds selfish on the part of the SUV to me. And believe it or not, there are options that are safe for all, and that's all anyone's trying to let anyone know.

I'm not brainwashed at all. I can see the bigger picture and are able to see outside the box, which is your KB motorcyclists limited view. The fact is that the typical farm fence is fatal if its hit at speed. So why is it that you all can ride beside them and not the wire cable type barrier? The real rediculous thing is that your debate for banning wire cable type barriers is seriously flawed. Plus the fact that there are often other routes that can be taken by a motorcyclist trying to avoid them. Plus if a motorcyclist rides responsibly, there is no reason why they should even get close to one if they travel a road with them. This site has traditionally been bikers who bleat about things they don't like or getting caught doing stupid shit. This whole cheese cutter campaign is taking it to a new level and quite unrealistic. The fact is that if motorcycling is getting too risky for some, then its time they sell their motorcycle(s). Likewise if the registration is getting too much. Plus if it saves 1 SUV, its likely to have several people in it. There might be safer options, the safest would be to not ride a motorcycle at all. Plus if that option was taken, no one would need to be upset over the cost of registration.

Urano

10th April 2010, 22:40

there is no reason why they should even get close to one

the reason could simply be a cager don't driving responsibly.
not so much time ago, one of ours got a stair in the middle of the highway. the cars preceding him covered the sight, so he found the stair at 20 meters in front of him in speed and didn't manage to avoid...

The fact is that if motorcycling is getting too risky for some, then its time they sell their motorcycle

man, this is truly a non-sense. has your car safety belts? why then? you could simply sell your car and go with the tube...

monkeymcbean

11th April 2010, 18:09

www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf

Hmmm, this survey result was of various types of barriers and resulting motorcycle collision, on re reading on pg 8 was a runner board installed on the uprights so the there is not so much snagging occuring to the motorbike and rider. It was a runner board not installed on the wire rope style barrier thou it seems this sort of modification should be able to work for these barriers if Transit keep installing these styles at a prolific rate they appear to be in my eyes.

monkeymcbean

11th April 2010, 18:12

Not as far as I know. There are various products utilised with Armco (mototub is a tube laid under the rail to cover the posts). But nothing for WRB. A fellow in Paraparaumu developed a sleeve to cover this shit...Transit/NZTA did not want to know.
For us, the wire/s are almost as bad as the posts, but what the wires do is 'direct' a body into the posts...chop chop...
The posts are made of friable metal (hard, but brittle). We don't break them, but cars do. Technically, a heavy-ish vehicle with a steel bar poking out the side could drive along, smashing all the posts as it goes.
A gas-axe or large bolt cutters could part the wire/s. The now-loose wire whipping free would not be a problem to the person doing the cutting...but don't stand down-wire of that person...

www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv19/05-0095-O.pdf

Hmmm, this survey result was of various types of barriers and resulting motorcycle collision, on re reading on pg 8 was a runner board installed on the uprights so the there is not so much snagging occuring to the motorbike and rider. It was a runner board not installed on the wire rope style barrier thou it seems this sort of modification should be able to work for these barriers if Transit keep installing these styles at a prolific rate they appear to be in my eyes.

p.s. I did not realise it could be so easy to take those things out...:shifty:

monkeymcbean

11th April 2010, 18:30

Sounds like a plan. Now who has the guts (or perhaps stupidity) to implement it?

Im sure if nothing is done about it or no one is listening, and there are more motorcycle fatilities or injuries involving WRB, why not, I don't think you need guts or be stupid, someone or people will get feed up and take things into there own hands, unfortunately like in alot of cases it will take more fatilities and injuries for people to get motivated.

inlinefour

11th April 2010, 19:03

the reason could simply be a cager don't driving responsibly.
not so much time ago, one of ours got a stair in the middle of the highway. the cars preceding him covered the sight, so he found the stair at 20 meters in front of him in speed and didn't manage to avoid...

man, this is truly a non-sense. has your car safety belts? why then? you could simply sell your car and go with the tube...

It makes perfect sense, its just that you have to think about it as a general road user and not a motorcyclist. If a motorcyclist does not ride defensively then its just a matter of time until they find themself in a dangerous situation. So why are you lot blaming the road barriers, other road users and/or anything other than the individual motorcyclist? Your whole campaign against the wire cable road barriers is pointless and does nothing but lay false blame. When its up to each individual who rides a motorcycle to ride responsibly and accept the fact that what they are doing is potentially dangerous.

bogan

11th April 2010, 19:29

as I've said before, why are bikers required to ride within their lanes to survive when car drivers are not?

Urano

11th April 2010, 20:57

motorcycle to ride responsibly

well...
my point is already clear.
i only want to add that today riding with responsibility is no more enough: you have to ride with "circumspection" ;)

MSTRS

12th April 2010, 08:31

... a general road user ...

Everybody who operates a vehicle of any sort, on a road, is a 'general road-user'. We are not special, and we are not asking to be treated differently. The complete opposite, actually. The fact is that barriers are installed for 'safety' purposes (what other reason is there) and should work for all.
I hear what you say about farm fences. Yes, going into one of those is not a good thing. However...the difference there is that generally, the fence is quite some way off the road, whereas WRB are often literally within inches of the road edge. And by 'edge', I mean the solid line marking...not the seal edge. Also, I've yet to see a farm fence taking the place of the dotted lane markings.
The other difference is that there are many stories of bikers going through a wire farm fence and surviving... not too many where WRBs are concerned.

MSTRS

12th April 2010, 14:02

p.dath

12th April 2010, 17:35

Hopeful Bastard

12th April 2010, 18:13

Have you guys seen what has been installed at the Peka Peka passing lanes? What are your views on them? I cant be arsed to go and find it if someone has already posted lol

inlinefour

12th April 2010, 18:29

Everybody who operates a vehicle of any sort, on a road, is a 'general road-user'. We are not special, and we are not asking to be treated differently. The complete opposite, actually. The fact is that barriers are installed for 'safety' purposes (what other reason is there) and should work for all.
I hear what you say about farm fences. Yes, going into one of those is not a good thing. However...the difference there is that generally, the fence is quite some way off the road, whereas WRB are often literally within inches of the road edge. And by 'edge', I mean the solid line marking...not the seal edge. Also, I've yet to see a farm fence taking the place of the dotted lane markings.
The other difference is that there are many stories of bikers going through a wire farm fence and surviving... not too many where WRBs are concerned.

You obviously have not done much riding down the backroads of Taranaki. As the fences are close, one lane and at times washouts send you back the way you came. This includes washouts that can be ridden down if your that keen and plenty of places to get stuck. Are you telling me this is solely an issue of those who ride on sealed roads? Sounds like its the riders who are pussies and don't trust themselves enough to ride anywhere half decient. If so its quite possible that these sort of individuals would utterly shit themselves. If they tried riding along, up and down some of the goat tracks that I've been along. If any of this applies then things have got far too polictically correct. That pansies that are best suited to be cagers, are trying to ride motorcycles. Although considering there are alot of riders in Auckland, I can imagine that there are riders who fit the bill.

The whole cheese grater issue is really a non-issue. Especially when its fed by the what ifs and a rider doing a wheelie gone wrong and ending up in the barrier. If you don't have the ability, confidence, skills, knowledge to ride properly and want to thake the risk. Then you are best suited in a cage of some sort, if the perils and possibilities of riding a motorcle bothers you. Which in the end just makes the whole thing a joke and take the piss out of motorcycling.

Anyone who does not understand the above, don't bother replying to it, as I've had enough of idiots making a cock of themself.

bogan

12th April 2010, 18:32

Anyone who does not understand the above, don't bother replying to it, as I've had enough of idiots making a cock of themself.

Oh I understand it, but my question to you still remains, why are bikers required to ride within their lanes to survive when car drivers are not?

Yow Ling

12th April 2010, 18:49

Oh I understand it, but my question to you still remains, why are bikers required to ride within their lanes to survive when car drivers are not?

A higher standard is required of bike riders as the risks of being severly disabled are much higher, regardless of whether WRBs are installed or not

p.dath

12th April 2010, 19:04

You obviously have not done much riding down the backroads of Taranaki. As the fences are close, one lane and at times washouts send you back the way you came.

The safety requirements for roads is usually based on the traffic flow (and hence the probability of a crash increasing). For example, most developed countries require median barriers when the flow exceeds 10,000 vehicles/hour.

I'm not familiar with the roads you speak off, but if the traffic flow is sufficiently low then perhaps the area authority considers it acceptable.

The whole cheese grater issue is really a non-issue. Especially when its fed by the what ifs and a rider doing a wheelie gone wrong and ending up in the barrier. If you don't have the ability, confidence, skills, knowledge to ride properly and want to thake the risk. Then you are best suited in a cage of some sort, if the perils and possibilities of riding a motorcle bothers you. Which in the end just makes the whole thing a joke and take the piss out of motorcycling.

Anyone who does not understand the above, don't bother replying to it, as I've had enough of idiots making a cock of themself.

I don't know if you have read the NHSA and Monash University study already quoted. Probably two of the most famous general road safety research organisations. Anyway you'll find they did a lot of actual crash studies and computer simulations, and on about page 24 you'll find that they discovered that a motorcycle colliding with a wire barrier at any angle at any speed will suffer a serious injury (many of them fatal).
You don't have to be doing a wheelie. There is a very good chance that a glancing impact at more than 60km/h will be fatal. I'm not talking about an acute or head in impact, just a minor glancing impact.

What they found typically happens is the rider ends up under the wire rope barrier, and they get trapped between the motorcycle and a pillar holding up the wire rope barriers. This frequently causes limb dismemberment. If you don't end up getting squashed by the motorcycle you sometimes just get wrapped around the pillar. This breaks whatever part of you that gets wrapped around the pillar. If you suffer two serious limb injuries you'll probably die (refer the Hurt report on fatal motorcycle accident findings). If you main body section wraps around the pillar you'll probably die.

Pretty much the short form is if you impact a wire rope barrier at any angle above 60km/h consider yourself dead. You are lucky otherwise.

Sure, your right, there is a risk to everything. Motorcyclists have to accept this. But some risks are easy to mitigate, and this is one of them.

RiderInBlack

12th April 2010, 19:20

You obviously have not done much riding down the backroads of Taranaki.Don't need to. Can find that up here. Have you riden to Wellington or The motorway North of Dorkland Harbour Bridge where you can find WRB where the dividing line used to be, with no space between the WRB and the lanes:shit:

inlinefour

12th April 2010, 19:32

Don't need to. Can find that up here. Have you riden to Wellington or The motorway North of Dorkland Harbour Bridge where you can find WRB where the dividing line used to be, with no space between the WRB and the lanes:shit:

Best you not go that way. if it scares you. P.dath, thankyou for proving a point. It could be time for you to stop riding. If you have utilise theory and what if, to hide the fact that your scared. We have "WRB" (I like that, less typing) in this part of the country and we are coping with them. So what is everyone else doing wrong?

MSTRS

12th April 2010, 20:25

You obviously have not done much riding down the backroads of Taranaki. As the fences are close, one lane ...

The same can be said of any rural road, in any part of the country.
You are being completely disingenuous, talking about farm fences...whether they are dangerous to us, or not, is not in question. The difference is -
They are NOT installed for motorist's safety. Unlike cheesecutters. Or Armco with blades for posts.

RiderInBlack

13th April 2010, 08:07

Best you not go that way. if it scares you.So are you suggesting that because I ride a bike and choose to take some concern for the way those building our roads take little regard for me or my follow bikers, that I should stay in bed or drive a car:angry: I'm really start ta think ya trying too get the thread to PD by trolling.

bogan

13th April 2010, 08:56

A higher standard is required of bike riders as the risks of being severly disabled are much higher, regardless of whether WRBs are installed or not

yeh but thats inherent in the activity and cannot be avoided, WRBs make it safer for car drivers and more dangerous for bike riders

nadroj

13th April 2010, 13:03

Just been made aware of the latest piece of dismembering road furniture...
http://www.csppacific.co.nz/Gallery.php?productid=nuguard31 Look at photo #1
Just look at what you are presented with as you slide diagonally off the road into the road safety feature...

Two instances I have come across are new installations on the first bend of the uphill passing lane 1km north of Kai Iwi, and the new Tariki subway. In both instances a small oil / diesel spill is all that would be needed to send a motorcyclist sliding towards these knife edged posts exposed from ground to over 1 metre high.

MSTRS

13th April 2010, 15:31

...a small oil / diesel spill is all that would be needed to send a motorcyclist sliding towards these knife edged posts exposed from ground to over 1 metre high.

Which is exactly what happened last Feb, killing one rider, maiming a second and injuring a third. The fourth rider managed to not get injured. That was standard Armco/wooden posts on SH5. I shudder to think what the injury/death rate would have been with these metal knives.

bogan

13th April 2010, 15:35

Two instances I have come across are new installations on the first bend of the uphill passing lane 1km north of Kai Iwi, and the new Tariki subway. In both instances a small oil / diesel spill is all that would be needed to send a motorcyclist sliding towards these knife edged posts exposed from ground to over 1 metre high.

was there a big cliff or something just out of frame? seems retarded to put a barrier up on the outside of a corner which looks fairly safe (for lack of a better word)

MSTRS

13th April 2010, 15:38

Nadroj's attached photos are clipped from the csp pacific website. Not sure where most of them are, but a couple look like the south side of the Pauatahanui Inlet

nadroj

13th April 2010, 17:16

was there a big cliff or something just out of frame? seems retarded to put a barrier up on the outside of a corner which looks fairly safe (for lack of a better word)

From LTSA website:
"NOTES ON THE SPECIFICATION FOR ROAD SAFETY
BARRIER SYSTEMS
1. INTRODUCTION
A road safety barrier is considered to be a hazard and should only be used when the
consequences of hitting it are less than the hazard/object which it is shielding. The
use of a road safety barrier should only be considered as a last resort following an
assessment of whether or not the mitigation of the hazard or object can be achieved
through the application of the principles of clear zoning.
A clear zone is a recovery zone in which a driver may regain the control of an errant
vehicle. The clear zone must be free from hazards or objects and traversable by a
vehicle. Refer to SHGDM, Section 6.6: Clear Zone for more details on clear zone
principles and requirements."

bogan

13th April 2010, 17:18

ah, so yeh, must have been something just out of frame. I guess the consequences of hitting the barrier are evaluated for cars only though.

inlinefour

14th April 2010, 21:12

So are you suggesting that because I ride a bike and choose to take some concern for the way those building our roads take little regard for me or my follow bikers, that I should stay in bed or drive a car:angry: I'm really start ta think ya trying too get the thread to PD by trolling.

No. I'm saying the whole cheese cutter winge, is PD and it never should have been allowed to become what it is now. Why is it, the older I get, the more people bitch and moan? Over things that would have ever been an issue when I was young and anyone making a drama, would have been told to shut up. We are been over run by pansies and the planet is becoming a hell in a handbag.

MSTRS

15th April 2010, 08:59

No. I'm saying the whole cheese cutter winge, is PD and it never should have been allowed to become what it is now. Why is it, the older I get, the more people bitch and moan? Over things that would have ever been an issue when I was young and anyone making a drama, would have been told to shut up. We are been over run by pansies and the planet is becoming a hell in a handbag.

When the whole of society is becoming more and more 'controlled' by laws etc to keep us safe from ourselves (or whatever), we are inundated by ads about safety at play - in the home - at work, and kids are so often mollycoddled at school etc because they aren't allowed to do the same sort of shit 'we' did, and OSH is right there to determine fault to punish the evil wrong doer - and so on...
Is it any wonder that when we see something that is dangerous to us, which the authorities have adopted for 'safety purposes'...then we are going to make noise about it.
Tell you what - make your home safe from burglars by electrifying all the door handles and window catches, hey even put up a warning sign if you like...there's no problem if no-one touches a live'un eh? - let us know how you get on.

MSTRS

15th April 2010, 19:10

Here's someone else who gets it (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/121988-Health-n-safety-can-get-fucked?p=1129719634#post1129719634) - not CC etc, but pertinent to my post above

inlinefour

16th April 2010, 18:23

When the whole of society is becoming more and more 'controlled' by laws etc to keep us safe from ourselves (or whatever), we are inundated by ads about safety at play - in the home - at work, and kids are so often mollycoddled at school etc because they aren't allowed to do the same sort of shit 'we' did, and OSH is right there to determine fault to punish the evil wrong doer - and so on...
Is it any wonder that when we see something that is dangerous to us, which the authorities have adopted for 'safety purposes'...then we are going to make noise about it.
Tell you what - make your home safe from burglars by electrifying all the door handles and window catches, hey even put up a warning sign if you like...there's no problem if no-one touches a live'un eh? - let us know how you get on.

To be honest I would rather get an ak47 and just yell out for them to move. As a moving target is harder to shoot and I'm tired of shooting the dimwits who don't move.

Society are being herded towards not being able to look after themselves or survive, unless they are wrapped up in cotton wool. If anyone thinks this is a good move, you must be mad.

What is next to be complained about?

swbarnett

17th April 2010, 05:24

Society are being herded towards not being able to look after themselves or survive, unless they are wrapped up in cotton wool. If anyone thinks this is a good move, you must be mad.
I don't think you'll get much argument on this point. Certainly not from me.

The problem with WRBs for me is not one of safety (although it's pretty unnerving when you're being tailgated by a truck with a snail in front and there's a WRB on either side of your lane), it's about discrimination. We have enough trouble with being told we're a suicidal minority without being told that we're also a throw away comodity in the name of a false economy.

inlinefour

17th April 2010, 19:38

I don't think you'll get much argument on this point. Certainly not from me.

The problem with WRBs for me is not one of safety (although it's pretty unnerving when you're being tailgated by a truck with a snail in front and there's a WRB on either side of your lane), it's about discrimination. We have enough trouble with being told we're a suicidal minority without being told that we're also a throw away comodity in the name of a false economy.

That might be true. But it is your personal choice to be on a motorcycle in that particular situation. Rather than taking responsibility for it completely yourself, your blaming someone else. Hitting the truck is far more dangerous than any wire barrier running down the side of the road.

Riding a motorcycle and complaining about doing it, is really bloody stupid.

swbarnett

17th April 2010, 22:35

That might be true. But it is your personal choice to be on a motorcycle in that particular situation.
Yes, and no. Yes, I chose to ride between the WRBs given that they were there but I did not choose to be tailgated and I did not choose to have a slow driver in front.

Rather than taking responsibility for it completely yourself, your blaming someone else.
No, I do take responsibility for myself. You are right that if I get hit by the truck I am responsible for being there in the first place. My problem is that the prescence of WRBs (or any barrier for that matter) on the white line to either side of a single lane make that piece of road effectively impossible to travel with any reasonable degree of safety on a motorcycle unless you are alone on the road.

I'm curious. How would you react if the truck in this situation decided to rear-end you? You can't speed up and the prescence of a barrier on either side denies you any escape route.

Hitting the truck is far more dangerous than any wire barrier running down the side of the road.
I would rather be run over by a truck than run into a WRB and open road speeds. You have more chance of surviving the truck.

Riding a motorcycle and complaining about doing it, is really bloody stupid.
Agreed. But I'm not complaining about riding. I'm complaining about a "safety" device being anything but when motorcycles are factored in to the equation. It is the hypocrisy and discrimination that annoys me.

MSTRS

18th April 2010, 09:12

... the prescence of a barrier on either side denies you any escape route. Or even on one side only, because often that is where your escape route would be

I would rather be run over by a truck than run into a WRB and open road speeds. You have more chance of surviving the truck. I doubt that.

...But I'm not complaining about riding. I'm complaining about a "safety" device being anything but when motorcycles are factored in to the equation. It is the hypocrisy and discrimination that annoys me. A device that promises safety for some and death for others is NOT a safety device, which is all we are saying.
I truly do not understand anyonme who rides (or did) not being against these killer fences. Esp when there are safer alternatives that could be used.

swbarnett

18th April 2010, 10:03

Being hit by a truck is safer than hitting a WRB because the dynamics of the collision matter when you're hit by a truck. It doesn't matter how you hit a WRB, the result only depends on how fast you hit it.

MSTRS

18th April 2010, 10:09

Put it this way...dynamics and speed aside...I wouldn't take bets on it.

inlinefour

18th April 2010, 12:01

Yes, and no. Yes, I chose to ride between the WRBs given that they were there but I did not choose to be tailgated and I did not choose to have a slow driver in front.

No, I do take responsibility for myself. You are right that if I get hit by the truck I am responsible for being there in the first place. My problem is that the prescence of WRBs (or any barrier for that matter) on the white line to either side of a single lane make that piece of road effectively impossible to travel with any reasonable degree of safety on a motorcycle unless you are alone on the road.

I'm curious. How would you react if the truck in this situation decided to rear-end you? You can't speed up and the prescence of a barrier on either side denies you any escape route.

I would rather be run over by a truck than run into a WRB and open road speeds. You have more chance of surviving the truck.

Agreed. But I'm not complaining about riding. I'm complaining about a "safety" device being anything but when motorcycles are factored in to the equation. It is the hypocrisy and discrimination that annoys me.

There is hypocrisy and discrimination everywhere. If you apply the definition to everything that happens around the world. We live in this wonderful country that makes it much safer to ride and looks after their own, if the worst happens. You lot need to be bloody thankful that you don't live in India or Thailand or any other country. That you truely take your life into your own hands, when riding a motorcycle. Go talk about hypocrisy and discrimination over there and your likely to get killed for your trouble.

This is what is so farked with this country. There are so many people in NZ who are bleating and moaning over many different things. No one is happy with what we have got and would rather bleat and moan. Over what is considered not fair or what they think we should have.

We need a Govt that is prepared to say "no". They are just too scared of being voted out during the next election There are so many so called adults who resort to anything provided it gets what they want. What happened to the time that if you couldn't afford something, you went without, or the time that poor behavour was put back onto the individual(s) doing it? It was replaced with the credit era, instand gratification and depression, if it all goes wrong.

It worries me the way that the country is going. Most don't have a clue to whats happening around the world, as they cannot be bothered, or just can't do the research. Its probably a good thing that perhaps only a few centuries time. The Earth is likely to no longer be able to sustain life in many or most of the land mass. The stuff you really need to be worried about, most people are not even aware of. Its amazing the information thats now available, the doccos and other programming on Sky, that hints on how bad things could get. When you consider it all, its not a good outlook. But humanity is just worried about the here and now. Ultimately we might be taken down by our own ignorance and stupidity. I hope they are unable to terraform Mars if the Earth is really in trouble, as it would be sad if mankind was allowed to stuff up another planet. Talk about hypocrisy and discrimination then!

But hey, don't worry about the future generations. Keep on whinging about something as pathetic as wire cable road barriers. After all, bitching and moaning is one thing that people in this country do really well. Go and spend a week in a slum, might change your attitudes then? Probably not, as like so many others, its all just about yourself and its bloody embarrassing.

swbarnett

18th April 2010, 16:44

Put it this way...dynamics and speed aside...I wouldn't take bets on it.
If you get under the truck, you're pretty much screwed. However, if they just bump you from behind then it's the WRBs you have to worry about. Can't say I've tested this, though, it's seems logical (but I could be wrong).

swbarnett

18th April 2010, 18:17

IL4, in many ways I actually agree with everything you're saying. The world has indeed gone safety mad and I'm the first to say that NZ's roads and vehicles are plenty safe enough and we don't need to go any further (truth be told I think we've already gone too far, my bike is from the mid 80s ant it suffers not at all from the lack of the likes of ABS, kick stand swithes etc.).

I am very glad to be living in a country with some semblence of freedom on the roads and where I am free to whatever the hell I like within reason. I bleat about very little publicly and generally just get on with enjoying life.

However, I take issue when:

1. My hard earned tax money is used for nefarious purposes.
2. Safety measures are taken where no need exists.
3. Those safety measures actually make the situation worse.
4. I, or a group to which I belong, am sidelined and labelled as a throw away 2nd class citezin.

and I feel that there just might be something that can be done about it.

WRBs fit all the above criteria and have already been banned in some parts of Europe so why not here?

I am only speaking up now because I see WRBs (and to a slighter lesser extent any barrier) as pandering to the PC bleating and moaning NZ that you despise so much (as do I). They are only installed because of the commonly held modern belief that NOONE should be allowed to die of anything but old age (and I think most would even eliminate this if they could). As a result, we are being forced into a world where all life has been removed because it might be dangerous. I want to see all barriers removed anywhere except multilane motorways but I will settle for WRBs being replaced with an alternative that does the same job for all.

As to your comments about the the Earth no longer sustainging the human population. I fully agree that this is inevitable given the current direction of humankind on this planet. However, I see no way out of it. It is in the nature of all animals to exploit their environment to the fullest extent of which they are capable. Because we have analytical minds we are able to exploit ours to breaking point. Unless you can get all 6 billion inhabitants to go against their nature this is not going to change. Given this I feel perfectly comfortable not ignoring, but being resigned to, the plight of the future generations and saying "hang the sense of it, I'd far rather be happy than right any day".

Urano

18th April 2010, 20:20

There is hypocrisy and discrimination everywhere. If you apply the definition to everything that happens around the world. We live in this wonderful country that makes it much safer to ride and looks after their own, if the worst happens. You lot need to be bloody thankful that you don't live in India or Thailand or any other country. That you truely take your life into your own hands, when riding a motorcycle. Go talk about hypocrisy and discrimination over there and your likely to get killed for your trouble.

Go and spend a week in a slum, might change your attitudes then? Probably not, as like so many others, its all just about yourself and its bloody embarrassing.

i'm getting in the hope you are really trolling this topic, and this is not what you think truly...

what you just said is incredibly stupid, and please consider this referred to your word only, as i don't know you personally...

the "don't moan, there's someone living in worse conditions than you" is a senseless and blind statement.
what does it mean? here in italy we had people putting pesticides in bread, or altering wine, or involved in falsification of mozzarella: what should we say? "no, it's ok, thing to the poor darfur children, they don't have mozzarella at all. let's eat fake cheese".
there's been cases of houses builded up with sea sand in the cement, so the salt had corroded the steel bars inside and the house fell down with someone below it. "no, it's ok. stop moaning and think to the poor slum guys, they don't have a house at all"
there's been cases of false CE marked helmets, sold in shops. "no, it's ok, think to the poor rider in india they don't wear helmets at all. let's wear a fake one".

i've probably misunderstood what the life is like there in nz, but here i pay taxes and fees to have a certain level of service. i expect streets to have the best possible safety feature, for all of the users. i expect it not to have holes, not to have wrong radius turn, to have horizontal marks in good conditions, and to have safety barriers that actually do the best to safe ALL OF US if something during my ride goes wrong.

sorry pal, but "stop moaning and think at the poor bolivians" http://www.oddee.com/item_96660.aspx is an idiotic statement.

MSTRS

19th April 2010, 08:39

"Eat your dinner. Don't you know there's children starving in Africa?"

inlinefour

19th April 2010, 19:11

i'm getting in the hope you are really trolling this topic, and this is not what you think truly...

what you just said is incredibly stupid, and please consider this referred to your word only, as i don't know i personally...

the "don't moan, there's someone living in worse conditions than you" is a senseless and blind statement.
what does it mean? here in italy we had people putting pesticides in bread, or altering wine, or involved in falsification of mozzarella: what should we say? "no, it's ok, thing to the poor darfur children, they don't have mozzarella at all. let's eat fake cheese".
there's been cases of houses builded up with sea sand in the cement, so the salt had corroded the steel bars inside and the house fell down with someone below it. "no, it's ok. stop moaning and think to the poor slum guys, they don't have a house at all"
there's been cases of false CE marked helmets, sold in shops. "no, it's ok, think to the poor rider in india they don't wear helmets at all. let's wear a fake one".

i've probably misunderstood what the life is like there in nz, but here i pay taxes and fees to have a certain level of service. i expect streets to have the best possible safety feature, for all of the users. i expect it not to have holes, not to have wrong radius turn, to have horizontal marks in good conditions, and to have safety barriers that actually do the best to safe ALL OF US if something during my ride goes wrong.

sorry pal, but "stop moaning and think at the poor bolivians" http://www.oddee.com/item_96660.aspx is an idiotic statement.

I've just sat down (after sitting in a wheelchair all day and then changed to the lounge chair) and logged into KB. I recieved a self drive van a few weeks back and you wouldn't believe what its done to get me back into life again. I started off here at KBer full bore, swear words and all. I'm stilll amazed at how some people react to it and preach political correctness. Which is exactly what the cheese cutter campaign is. Political correctness gone insane. It is not that long ago that people complained about what was happening in the name of it. Now that KB has it's own PC agenda, things have gone stupid with ideation. Its just I want it my way and I'm not going to listen to anything negative to my common belief here. I've always made it a habbit to apply common sense to life and having my accident has resulted in me having to do that much more. Being disabled is like being back in the military. On the go so much more, just doing the things that didn't take long before. As well as the disabled stuff, that I'm sure most people don't want to know about and usually have no idea. I used to get told we are as busy as we choose to be. I know for a fact, that this is not always the true. I honestly don't know what planet some motorcyclist live on. There has always been multiple hazards to consider when motorcycling. Motorcycling has become so much safer, since I started riding when I was eigth. I've read up on what motorcycling used to be when my Great-Great Grandfather purchased his Harley Davidson. It had a side car and it sounds the the family used it until they purchased a car through necessity. My father says it was the first Harley in NZ. One thing I know is that I don't believe everything that man has said. But he has a picture of them and it. Either way I don't think it matters, but it would explain why I had the urge to ride. Back then it was definitly not as safe riding, as it is now. There has been so much development on motorcycles and everything riders use to do it. The problem has arisen now that rider are expecting that everything around them, become safe also. Its a fact that the risk will remain and its much better a rider get mince up, rather than go across the road and hit a family car. Some motorcyclists here are so insistant that they are so much more important than everyone else on the road. At the moment its the cheese cutter campaign, winge about ACC and moan about the cost of the bike rego. Quite frankly your all a bunch of self indulgent pricks and I make no apology for the use of the P word. Christ and I both know that swear words are part of the English language and no amount of PCness will ever change that. So cry a river and get over yourselves if you don't like any of what I've said. God knows the truth and when you all return back into reality, hopefully you will too.

"Eat your dinner. Don't you know there's children starving in Africa?"

You really don't get it MSTRS, the problem begins when a human begins to get things their way. At some stage of human development it becomes something that is just expected to happen.

I truly do not understand anyonme who rides (or did) not being against these killer fences. Esp when there are safer alternatives that could be used.

That is because your looking at it from just the view of an elite few. Who all decide what they want and do not consider much else. Its much cheaper to do the wire barrier, quicker to install and less people involved doing it. Resulting in minimal man hours needed to do it, less room needed when making a road bigger. Less land needing to be stripped from the original owner and payed for by the Crown. You motorcyclists have no clue about roading costs, whats involved in developing and building roads. My Uncle comes around and talks to me about it. I'm sure he is really happy to have someone actually interested, as it would appear that much of the family really is not.

When you think you know best and do not. Thats when part of the problem starts to occur and you all have had plenty of time to let the whole thing snowball to what it is now.

Headbanger

19th April 2010, 20:00

That is because your looking at it from just the view of an elite few. Who all decide what they want and do not consider much else. Its much cheaper to do the wire barrier, quicker to install and less people involved doing it. Resulting in minimal man hours needed to do it, less room needed when making a road bigger. Less land needing to be stripped from the original owner and payed for by the Crown. You motorcyclists have no clue about roading costs, whats involved in developing and building roads. My Uncle comes around and talks to me about it. I'm sure he is really happy to have someone actually interested, as it would appear that much of the family really is not.

When you think you know best and do not. Thats when part of the problem starts to occur and you all have had plenty of time to let the whole thing snowball to what it is now.

Meh, Its already been established with real world costings that wire barriers cost less to install but more to maintain then concrete barriers.

Do you have any real world figures to support your claims? and what the fuck is wrong in your head that makes you want to support a safety barrier that is so much more dangerous to motorcyclist? To save the Government money?, thats our fuckin money, and they sure as hell need to come under scrutiny with what they spend it on.

You don't ride a bike anymore, so by rights its of no concern to you, That has no bearing on how some motorcyclists choose to view the implementation of cheese cutters on our roads.

MadDuck

19th April 2010, 20:09

Quite frankly your all a bunch of self indulgent pricks and I make no apology for the use of the P word.

Maybe you should join a motor car forum then?

You motorcyclists have no clue....

So you dont include yourself in this category anymore now you cant ride? But once you could so you had no clue then and still have no clue :whistle:

Headbanger

19th April 2010, 20:38

swbarnett

20th April 2010, 08:35

If you ignore all his condescending and convoluted rubbish his message merely consists of his opinion that if it doesn't concern him then Motorcyclists are fuckwits.

And he has an uncle whose an expert.
Indeed. He goes on about us being all PC. Ignoring completely the PC safety zealots, that he despises so much, that put barriers up in the first place.

MSTRS

20th April 2010, 10:23

You really don't get it MSTRS...

I 'get it' just fine. It's you that seems to be having trouble with the odd idea that a safety device should be safe.
Would you be happy to have a big spike fitted to the centre of your steering wheel, pointing back at your chest? Be very safe for anyone not in the driver's seat, and you'd be fine as long as you took extra care not to stop suddenly eh?

inlinefour

20th April 2010, 10:53

I 'get it' just fine. It's you that seems to be having trouble with the odd idea that a safety device should be safe.
Would you be happy to have a big spike fitted to the centre of your steering wheel, pointing back at your chest? Be very safe for anyone not in the driver's seat, and you'd be fine as long as you took extra care not to stop suddenly eh?

Now your just being absolutely silly, by adding that bit about the spike on the steering wheel. It has absolutely no relevance to the cheese cutter campaign and shows that your just clutching at straws to support your point of view. The wire cable barriers are great. They stop vehicles from the other side of the road from ending up in frount of me and they stop people rather well too. A motorcyclist is far better off being dead, than spending the rest of their lives in extreme pain. I'm sure than many here would blame someone else, if it happened to them. Not only does it put people out of their misery, it also stops the need for ACC to have to spend hideous amounts of money looking after them.

Indeed. He goes on about us being all PC. Ignoring completely the PC safety zealots, that he despises so much, that put barriers up in the first place.

Personally I think the PC safety zealots need to shut up, get over themselves and stop riding a motorcycles full stop. These zealots are nothing but a bunch of self indulgant gits, who believe they have the right to take it all way too far. The reason I ignore it is because its nothing to take seriously. Which you'll all find out soon enough, if you keep on going about it, to who ever it is that has to listen to it all at the end.

All your doing is saying "I want", over something you have no real reason to be asking for it in the first place. The sad and pathetic part, is the fact that your unable or unwilling to realise this. If this is how you carry on online, with mass misinformation about things you know very little about. You'll be picked apart like vultures and left feeling depressed and angry about what happened. But at the end of it all, its yourselves that put yourselves in the situation and it was something you had no right to demand in the first place.

The fact is, if it was something that was ever going to happen, it would be happening by now. No one is going to take any of your dribble seriously and the wire cable barriers will continue to be used. The sooner this realisation happens, the sooner this website can return to what it used to be. As presently, a large part of the forum, is all about bleating and moaning about several different things.

You just don't want to face the facts and your denial of what I'm saying. Is nothing short of a coping strategy that is inappropriate. Its like being back in a psychiatric unit and you lot don't know your the patients. It was exactly the same when I was working there as a staff nurse. But thank you for the free source humour and the excuse to be trolling in the first place. Some of you just bleat about the trolling and ignore what else is said. But thats just another form of inappropriate coping strategy. Against something you don't like or don't want to take seriously.

I'm just saying it how it is, your just getting upset. Because the truth goes against your beliefs and what you want.

Headbanger

20th April 2010, 10:58

So cheese cutters are excellent because they kill motorcyclists?

You sir are totally fucked in the head, and you shame yourself.

onearmedbandit

20th April 2010, 11:02

http://inox.org/demot/TROLLING.jpg

MSTRS

20th April 2010, 11:12

Now your just being absolutely silly, by adding that bit about the spike on the steering wheel. It has absolutely no relevance to the cheese cutter campaign and shows that your just clutching at straws to support your point of view. The wire cable barriers are great. They stop vehicles from the other side of the road from ending up in frount of me and they stop people rather well too. A motorcyclist is far better off being dead, than spending the rest of their lives in extreme pain. I'm sure than many here would blame someone else, if it happened to them. Not only does it put people out of their misery, it also stops the need for ACC to have to spend hideous amounts of money looking after them.
Not silly at all. It could be considered a safety device, because it'll make you extra careful when driving. Sucks to be you if someone else gives you a shunt. Or your engine siezes. But they'll be fine.
Which is my point. A motorcyclist cannot always control the path they take, and these things just INCREASE the dangers we face.
As far as being happy that bikers are likely to die...that's just sick...a damning insight into your mental state. Get back on (or off, perhaps) your meds...

swbarnett

20th April 2010, 12:21

The reason I ignore it is because its nothing to take seriously.
Classic boiling frog.

The fact is, if it was something that was ever going to happen, it would be happening by now.
Ah, but it is. Maybe not in NZ yet, but these things are on the way out in more enlightened countries.

Kickaha

20th April 2010, 18:37

inlinefour

20th April 2010, 20:32

Except they don't all the time, there have already been several instances in NZ where vehicles have gone all the way through

There have been numerous instances of concrete barriers not being effective too, but lets not split hairs. We don't live in a perfect world and if your dumb enough to expect it. Your just going to end up disappointed. There are alot of things considered dangerous, should we ban all of them too?

Headbanger

20th April 2010, 20:54

There have been numerous instances of concrete barriers not being effective too, but lets not split hairs. We don't live in a perfect world and if your dumb enough to expect it. Your just going to end up disappointed. There are alot of things considered dangerous, should we ban all of them too?

The demonstrative fact is that concrete barriers are proven to be more effective and safer. Which is why people have a preference.

The rest of your post is too stupid for reply. You should just change your user name to "Epic Fail Fuckwit" and be done with it.

inlinefour

20th April 2010, 21:17

The demonstrative fact is that concrete barriers are proven to be more effective and safer. Which is why people have a preference.

The rest of your post is too stupid for reply. You should just change your user name to "Epic Fail Fuckwit" and be done with it.

The fact is that not riding a motorcycle is safer than riding a motorcycle.

If you have any problem or issue regarding motorcycling, it is recommened that you desist from any form of that activity.

We don't live in a perfect world and issisting on max safety, just goes to show that your probably doing something you shouldn't be. I've ridden a motorcycle with the barriers by my side. I acknowledge they are a risk if hit at high speed, but for a motorcyclist so is everything else.

All we have here is a bunch of people demanding that certian things be changed to their way. Its solely motivated by their percieved best interests and does not accept anyone who disagrees.

If I could, I would be at the Honda dealer, purchasing a new VFR. I would continue to ride along side said barriers and treat them with respect. As well as realise that I have chosen to accept all risk, associated with motorcycling. When your unable to do this, then your the only one with the problem and the solution I would have though is obvious. The thing I really don't understand, is why you all think your entitled to carry on this way. Roading is not any individual's or individuals' property. They have been put there for us to use and this along with riding. Is a privilege and not something that everyone is just entitled to have.

Either use and enjoy it as it is. Or bugger off elsewhere and stop thinking that things must change to suit yourself. There are so many others that use the NZ roads and you lot have decided for them also? Get real, your the only ones with the problem. Everyone else is just doing fine and has none of the issues your identifying here.

Headbanger

20th April 2010, 21:35

Either use and enjoy it as it is.

Jesus Christ you post some weak dribble.

No one has to roll over and spread their arse like a weak little bitch just because you say so. Who the fuck wants to live in a world like that? well,apart from you. A man worth his salt stands up to be counted.

And backing it up with long posts where you don't actually say anything worth saying isn't going to change that fact.

p.dath

20th April 2010, 21:58

The fact is that not riding a motorcycle is safer than riding a motorcycle.

Haha. A negation argument. You can replace the words "riding a motorcycle" with just about anything else and it will be true - but it says nothing about the safety of the activity.

The fact is that not driving a car is safer than driving a car.
The fact is that not walking is safer than walking.
The fact is that not having sex is safer than having sex.

swbarnett

21st April 2010, 12:36

The wire cable barriers are great. They stop vehicles from the other side of the road from ending up in frount of me
Except they don't all the time, there have already been several instances in NZ where vehicles have gone all the way through
Add to this the fact that they are ALWAYS there. Given that you find yourself sliding towards the oncoming lane the probability of hitting the barrier is 100%, the chance of hitting oncoming traffic is considerably lower - expecially in off-peak times.

MSTRS

21st April 2010, 12:51

.I acknowledge they are a risk if hit at high speed, but for a motorcyclist so is everything else...

Everyone else is just doing fine and has none of the issues your identifying here.

The speed doesn't even have to be that high, and it's their positioning and proximity that is perhaps the main problem.

I see that you have (little choice, I guess) joined the ranks of "I'm all right, Jack..."

Headbanger

21st April 2010, 13:41

Add to this the fact that they are ALWAYS there. Given that you find yourself sliding towards the oncoming lane the probability of hitting the barrier is 100%, the chance of hitting oncoming traffic is considerably lower - expecially in off-peak times.

Which is just another factor in highlighting how ludicrous they are.

Hell, If I installed a barrier at work in the name of safety that actively created a hazard for a portion of the people nearby the situation would be rectified almost immediately and wouldn't be allowed to happen again.

If I tried to justify its installation (or continued use) in the manner that some here have defended Cheese Cutters there would be hell to pay......

inlinefour

21st April 2010, 16:02

The speed doesn't even have to be that high, and it's their positioning and proximity that is perhaps the main problem.

I see that you have (little choice, I guess) joined the ranks of "I'm all right, Jack..."

Well I will say it yet again. Its your choice to be riding a motorcycle. If you can't live with the wire cable barriers, then its merely your problem. If its that big an issue, go and see a psychologist. But don't think that the world must change to fit in with you and your rather limited views of what roading should be in NZ.

Its fine the way that it is and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Which is just another factor in highlighting how ludicrous they are.

Hell, If I installed a barrier at work in the name of safety that actively created a hazard for a portion of the people nearby the situation would be rectified almost immediately and wouldn't be allowed to happen again.

If I tried to justify its installation (or continued use) in the manner that some here have defended Cheese Cutters there would be hell to pay......

Thank God your not the one doing it. Because looking at some of your posts, it would be half arsed and only work for the minority.

The barriers work and are safe for the majority. You lot making a song and dance about them. Has not change that fact, nor is it likely to.

Haha. A negation argument. You can replace the words "riding a motorcycle" with just about anything else and it will be true - but it says nothing about the safety of the activity.

The fact is that not driving a car is safer than driving a car.
The fact is that not walking is safer than walking.
The fact is that not having sex is safer than having sex.

I would have to say that your post is utter bullshit and stupidity like this does nothing to help the cheese cutter campaign.

Is that what you would say to the PM, if he told you to stop riding if you don't like them?

Or woulf you rant like some do here online at him??? That would be funny! The rest of NZ would feel sorry for John and tell you to just shut up.

bogan

21st April 2010, 16:24

Well I will say it yet again. Its your choice to be riding a motorcycle. If you can't live with the wire cable barriers, then its merely your problem. If its that big an issue, go and see a psychologist. But don't think that the world must change to fit in with you and your rather limited views of what roading should be in NZ.

It's your choice to be posting on this site, if you can't live with being shot down every couple of posts, then it's merely your problem. If its that big an issue, go see a psychologist. But don't think that kb will change to fit in with your narrow minded views on what roading should be in NZ.

MSTRS

21st April 2010, 16:54

Its fine the way that it is and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

The barriers work and are safe for the majority.

That is just it. The barriers may be 'safe' for the majority. But NOT for every type of road user. Not just us. We get guillotined. So do front seat occupants of lowslung cars that go under the wires. The big truck and driver will be fine, but not so those they hit who have a false sense of security.

The barriers need to be as safe as possible for everyone.

Headbanger

21st April 2010, 19:37

Thank God your not the one doing it. Because looking at some of your posts, it would be half arsed and only work for the minority.

Yeah, Your sharp, The vast majority of the projects I have managed have required barriers. Any and all people and plant in that vicinity had to be taken into account and catered for. The best solution was used. Not the one most likely to fuck people up.

If I applied anything as retarded as your logic I would have been busted down to tea boy.

Ludicrous uninformed bullshit such as yours would destroy any and all credibility if it was applied in the real world.

Headbanger

21st April 2010, 19:49

Well I will say it yet again......and again....and again....and again .

Please don't, Your points were shit the first time they were shot to pieces, Your supportive arguments have been illogical, ill conceived, stupid and all over the place like a mad woman's shit, and the only crap more ludicrous has been your bizarre claims at a clarity and logic ability over and above the rest of the planet, while maintaining that you hold the low-ground and the high ground simultaneously.

At this stage I'd say everyone apart from you can see you for what you are.

Infact, I think the Internet is minting an award for you right now.

steve_t

21st April 2010, 20:02

Infact, I think the Internet is minting an award for you right now.

Does it have really big hair?

inlinefour

23rd April 2010, 19:07

It's your choice to be posting on this site, if you can't live with being shot down every couple of posts, then it's merely your problem. If its that big an issue, go see a psychologist. But don't think that kb will change to fit in with your narrow minded views on what roading should be in NZ.

You really must live in a dream world. Because your ideas of being "shot down" is purely crap. I don't have any issue(s) and its everyone here who has the narrow mind view(s) of what roading should be, to suit them. I'm the one who is saying things are fine the way that they are and if you have a problem. Go and find someone who gives a toss, because I don't care. Nor am I going to get upset over anything posted over the internet.

That is just it. The barriers may be 'safe' for the majority. But NOT for every type of road user. Not just us. We get guillotined. So do front seat occupants of lowslung cars that go under the wires. The big truck and driver will be fine, but not so those they hit who have a false sense of security.

The barriers need to be as safe as possible for everyone.

There is no such thing as "as safe as possible", as in reality there is always going to be risk. If anyone operating a vehicle does not feel safe enough to be on the road. Then stop operating the vehicle and the issue ceases to exsist. All your doing here is making an issue out of nothing. As the road barriers are perfectly fine, provided no one is dumb enoough to come into contact with one.

I feel that I'm conversing with someone from Jehovas Witness. As all you are doing is saying the same things, which some is based on theory and the worst case senario. You all need to take your head out of the clouds and realise that you have absolutely no say into how roading is done. Your all making a huge thing out of nothing and using an internet forum. All your doing is winding yourselves up and some how you have assumed that its all going to work.

Please by all means go off to who ever it is that you plan to and demand that the WRB be removed and replaced. Personally I don't think you have a shit show in hell of making anything out of it and all you have achieved. Is making a percieved issue, out of something that was not really a problem in the ffirst place.

The problem is that there are alot of motorcyclists who want safety. While doing something that is always going to have risk. So why is it that the roads have to be changed to suit a bunch of motorcyclists? Who don't have enough common sense, to know that they need to manage their own risk or stop riding.

I already know your all completely unrealistic and have a poor grasp of reality and anything you bleat about. Here is a good question, has anyone actually gone and talked to anyone responsible for roading? If what I have read here so far is anything to go on, I seriously doubt it. What I've read here has been speculation and people who would like to think they know what they are discussing. But sadly do not and are only interested in their self preservation, no matter the costs.

Although its already plainly obvious that here no one is interested in being realistic or actually going about what is needed, to make sure your educated enough to know what your discussing. Based on what I've been through since my accident and the amount of $ I'm aware of being spent. I know that there will be alot more. Its a fact that motorcyclists tend to make the biggest mess of themselves and require more input from ACC etc. The truth of the matter is that motorcycle regos should be double their price just based on that. Also bleating on about who caused the accident is just as helpful as arguing about the chicken and the egg debate.

Please tell headbanger I put him on ignore awhile ago and I see that there are plenty of posts here too. I'm guessing he really enjoys the sound of his own voice also.

bogan

23rd April 2010, 19:26

You really must live in a dream world. Because your ideas of being "shot down" is purely crap. I don't have any issue(s) and its everyone here who has the narrow mind view(s) of what roading should be, to suit them. I'm the one who is saying things are fine the way that they are and if you have a problem. Go and find someone who gives a toss, because I don't care. Nor am I going to get upset over anything posted over the internet.

I do live in a dream world (as in dream awesome, not dream fictional), and I'm going to do my best to keep it that way. You keep saying you don't care, but you keep posting also :confused: and narrow minded, wtf, we want something to work for all road users, you want something to work for most, most is narrower that all, so it is you who is narrow-minded. So yeh, shot down again, better luck next time sunshine :sunny:

Jonno.

23rd April 2010, 19:52

I don't have any issue(s) and its everyone here who has the narrow mind view(s) of what roading should be, to suit them. I'm the one who is saying things are fine the way that they are and if you have a problem. Go and find someone who gives a toss, because I don't care. Nor am I going to get upset over anything posted over the internet.

You're hilarious.

swbarnett

24th April 2010, 09:19

the road barriers are perfectly fine, provided no one is dumb enoough to come into contact with one.
Then why have them in the first place?

swbarnett

24th April 2010, 09:22

The problem is that there are alot of motorcyclists who want safety. While doing something that is always going to have risk.
Same goes for car drivers.

Come to think if it this applies to ANY aspect of life, no matter how "safe" it is percieved to be.

RiderInBlack

24th April 2010, 13:12

As the road barriers are perfectly fine, provided no one is dumb enoough to come into contact with one.Give the Man a Tui. Shit ya make me laugh. If every road user was not dumb enough to come into contact with the barriers, one would have to assume that they wouldn't be dumb enough to cross into on coming traffic or leave the road in unsafe areas. In that perfect World, ya bet ya bottom dollar that Transit NZ wouldn't be spending money on putting WRB in (unless they aim was to try and hurt people).
The WRB are not "perfectly fine" because they fail to do the job they were designed for. They fail to stop trucks crossing. This has been dramatically shown in Truck vs WRB here as well as overseas. They fail as a safe way to slow cars with low bonnets and are definitely not a safe way to slow a bike or a body. There are better barriers out there, that are more cost effective in the long run. I for one can not see that it is wrong to ask that Transit NZ at least consider this before making their choice of barrier. It is stupid and a cop-out to load the danger of WRB totally on Motorcyclist, we are not the only ones effected by them.
As for ACC levies, if you are so keen that riders take full responsibly for their choices in relation to riding, you could put ya money where ya mouth is and pay ACC any money spent on you over and above what you have paid them. I would think you totally stupid for doing so, but would at least respect ya for walking your walk and not just talking ya talk. I, by the way, am totally happy that my ACC and Taxes have gone toward the recovery of people like yourself.
I ride knowing the risk of my choices. I know this more than most because I work as a Orthopeadic Nurse and have seen the results. The risk of life is that you will die. If ya lucky ya get to choose how ya get to go, but more often than not this is totally out of ya control.

Headbanger

24th April 2010, 17:59

I feel that I'm conversing with someone from Jehovas Witness. As all you are doing is saying the same things,

I already know your all completely unrealistic and have a poor grasp of reality and anything you bleat about.

Hows that for ironic....and retarded.

Please tell headbanger I put him on ignore awhile ago and I see that there are plenty of posts here too. I'm guessing he really enjoys the sound of his own voice also.

Lmfao.

Surely the ignore capabilities isn't also beyond your limited comprehension?

You would be better served by pulling your head out of your arse and sticking your brain into gear. But perhaps you have lost that capacity or never had it. No one is mistaking your delusion for intelligence.

inlinefour

24th April 2010, 19:26

Hows that for ironic....and retarded.

Lmfao.

Surely the ignore capabilities isn't also beyond your limited comprehension?

You would be better served by pulling your head out of your arse and sticking your brain into gear. But perhaps you have lost that capacity or never had it. No one is mistaking your delusion for intelligence.

Well this sucks. I've got him on ignore, but I still get notices when he quotes me in one of his posts. Here is probably KBer's biggest preformers, who expects to get his own way and will rave absolute shit when he does not get his own way.

When I rode with the WRB along the AKL motorway I treated it with respect. If my direction of travel had me moving towards it, I was more inclined to move to the left of the road, if I was concerned about my safety. It didn't take much and the road straightened and/or let the dickhead behind me past. I cannot understand people who ride in the fast lane of any multilaned and complain about the WRB being there. Its like riding with a truck coming the over way all of the time down a two laned road. If they was not there a motorcyclist would most likely just damage the truck and make a mess anyway. The truck wins, the motorcycle is scrap and the rider has moved onto a better exsistance. Please explain why you can't move over to the far left and well away from the WSB??? I think anyone who rides next to the WSB is a tool for putting themself there in the first place. You have positioned yourself next to it. Even though you can move left and in many places thats over several lanes. So lets face it, WRB are dangerous and you put yourself in harms way being near them. Basically speaking for all you dumb arses. Ride to the left at all times and especially when there is ever WSB to the right. Why anyone needs to be told, let alone bleat about them being there. Has no right to be on any road in the first place. I'm wondering if you got your licience in with the weetbix and are yet to read the roadcode. One could say that its the rider who has put themself in the situation. By riding next to them in the first place, even if the event that cause them to collide was from a 3rd party.

Sounds like some here need to resit their licience, if any of the above is not happening.

Epic Fail

To bleat on about on the internet, just makes the fact that your doing it, more funny and more stupid.

Epic Fail +1

Failure to ride safely may result in rider's death. It has always been this way and will always remain. The word motorcycle and safety should never be put in the same sentence and I can't understand anyone thinking otherwise. They are the ones who are making a joke of riding. I really enjoyed my times on a motorcycle and if I could I would still. What I'm saying is you riders are the problem, not the WRB.

But if you put enough idiots together, its amazing what can happen... :nya:

Headbanger

24th April 2010, 19:36

Well this sucks. I've got him on ignore, but I still get notices when he quotes me in one of his posts.

Excellent.

Headbanger

24th April 2010, 19:37

Here is probably KBer's biggest preformers, who expects to get his own way and will rave absolute shit when he does not get his own way.

And again, ironic......and retarded.

What exactly is "my own way", Lmfao.

Kickaha

24th April 2010, 19:48

Here is probably KBer's biggest preformers

What exactly is it that you preform Headbanger?

inlinefour

24th April 2010, 20:05

What exactly is it that you preform Headbanger?

Sorry, headbanger is obviously 2nd. Were you feeling left out Kickaha?

Headbanger

24th April 2010, 20:13

What exactly is it that you preform Headbanger?

I believe you may have to be in IL4's alternative reality to have any idea what he is referring to, whatever it is, I bet I'm doing it awesomely.

Kickaha

24th April 2010, 20:22

Sorry, headbanger is obviously 2nd. Were you feeling left out Kickaha?

No I wasn't, but thanks for your concern

I bet I'm doing it awesomely.

You're starting to sound like a mental health patient yourself

Headbanger

24th April 2010, 20:32

You're starting to sound like a menatl health patient yourself

Menatl health and preforming go hand in hand.

inlinefour

24th April 2010, 20:35

No I wasn't, but thanks for your concern

You're starting to sound like a menatl health patient yourself

Good to hear that your ok now.

I'm almost ready to take him off ignore as I have 3 quotation messages from him and alas you have quoted him. So I guess you could say its kharma that he is snapping at the chops at me. Maybe, but I really care.

I fall off a motorcycle and the place fills up with unrealistic idiots. Who unfortunately insist on riding motorcycles and are psychotic. Some of which even have gone as far as end up in the WRB. One would like to point out that it was the rider who put himself there, for all you pc safety nazis. I don't have any time who complain about others riding and some of you are complaining about your own. Ironic I know. So how about everyone stop dribbling on about cheese cutters, WSB, wire cable barrier and go and pay your regos. Like all good road users do and not cry about the costing.

Oh and make sure you have insurance. With idiots its only a matter of time before some of them have an accident. Its not a case of if, but of when and I don't want some uninsured wanker hitting me. I think that 3rd party should be made compulsory. It would have helped me at times when some cager has taken me out and I got stuck with the bill. Thank God that when I was fishing I only rode older cheap bikes. If it had have been the DRZ, it probably would have been relatively OK. But if it was the CBR, I could imagine a hard impact could do expensive damage.

Headbanger

24th April 2010, 20:38

I'm almost ready to take him off ignore as I have 3 quotation messages from him and alas you have quoted him..

Make that four.

bogan

24th April 2010, 21:20

So I guess you could say its kharma that he is snapping at the chops at me.
thats not how karma works, though maybe this kharma you speak of is something different, ill just add it to the list of other BS you seem to be spouting.

Oh and make sure you have insurance. With idiots its only a matter of time before some of them have an accident. Its not a case of if, but of when and I don't want some uninsured wanker hitting me. I think that 3rd party should be made compulsory. It would have helped me at times when some cager has taken me out and I got stuck with the bill. Thank God that when I was fishing I only rode older cheap bikes. If it had have been the DRZ, it probably would have been relatively OK. But if it was the CBR, I could imagine a hard impact could do expensive damage.

Why bother, your plans would have any idiots kill themselves on the roads with all the hazardous barriers you've added, along with those who have a moments attention lapse, those whos vehicles breakdown and veer out of control, those who hit patches of oil... But hey, we are making the roads safer for those still left alive right?