Fighting dirty

[Flatcap]

The mild fisticuffs between Mallard and Henare got me thinking - what is the most dispicable move you have heard / seen / used in a brawl?

The "Hannible Lecter" would be my vote, as per this incident:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4250634a4560.html

Animals

[imdying]

Couldn't think of anything that I'd actually seen or used that was particularly evil... so I considered 'Is there anything I wouldn't do?' The answer would have to be no, if I felt cornered, and in fear of my life, I would definitely go as far as to tear muscle mass and flesh from someones body with my teeth if I thought it would let me win :yes:

[NotaGoth]

Dan as a 2nd former in school had a 6th former take him on in a fight.. Of course he was a 3rd of the guys size... 6th former grabbed him in a head lock, had hold of him so tight that he was starting to turn blue..

Dan reached round, grabbed the guys nuts and twisted them.. The guy called him a dirty cunt.. But lets just say in the end he let go pretty quickly.. What did he expect..???? For Dan to sit back and let him choke the living daylights out of him..?? Don't think so..

If someone wants to pick a fight, I don't think there is such thing as "fighting dirty" when it comes to "defending" yourself.. You want to start a fight with someone, expect them to use what ever force necessary in order to defend themselves.. Eg; Pulling hair, scratching eyes, biting etc etc.. That ain't dirty fighting..

How ever.. If you walked up behind someone who had their back turned, and whacked a hunk of wood around their head.. I would consider that a dirty fight..

[vifferman]

I've only been in one fight - the guy was bigger'n me, so I knew I had to get some advantage. I tripped him up, sat on him, and got a few punches in before we were separated. I could see him brooding about it, so wasn't surprised when about 20 minutes later he had another go. Thjis time, the guys around me grabbed my arm, but they didn't do a good job of restraining him, so he started whaling on me. Fortunately (?), I was holding a beer handle in one hand, so non-one was holding on to that arm very well. I whacked him in the face with it, hitting him in the chin, and that was the end of the nonsense. And my beer. :weep:
Fighting dirty, or fighting smart?
To my mind, I was just evening things up.

[NotaGoth]

Just remembered...

A girl I worked with who was pregnant.... Went to use the toilet.. Two girls followed her out.. Smacked the shit out of her, had her on the floor kicking her in the head, and stomach.. Left her unconcious on the floor.. Didn't batter an eyelid..

All because she supposibly looked at one of the girls bf's..

Now thats dirty fighting.

[oldrider]

The adage "All's fair in love and war" springs to mind. :whistle:

[Goblin]

I once accidently wacked a big guy in the face as he tried to pull my keys out of the ignition and he ran off and called the cops to do me for assault. :laugh:

:girlfight:

[Pancakes]

Have worked for a few ex-military combat instructors in my time. One NZ and the outher South African. The easyiest thing I've found that works for little hoods trying to "stock" you is to keep your guard high, when they try to punch your exposed stomach area don't block it, just jab them in the throat. Doesn't have to be hard. From there, just leave the scene. I don't start fights and will try to get out of them so if I do get in one it really pisses me off and figure they're asking for it. Balls or throat isn't out of the question, if someone else starts shit and you've given them the chance to settle down and you can't get away at all just do what it takes to get away. Although saying to some one, "leave now or I'll break both your arms and leave you here" when your confronted makes them wonder who the hell you are and if they're making the best move! Make sure you can back it up though. Fight is fricken stupid though. I recon domestic abusers and repeat violent criminals should be used as cage fighting fodder. If they like violence let them be on the receiveing end. No-one wins a fight, both parties get fired up and hurt and it ruins your day/night.

[alley cat]

The mild fisticuffs between Mallard and Henare got me thinking - what is the most dispicable move you have heard / seen / used in a brawl?

The "Hannible Lecter" would be my vote, as per this incident:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4250634a4560.html

Animals

That will learn him, he was probably getting lippy anyway:shutup:

[yungatart]

I have never been in a fight (its not the kind of thing well brought up young ladies get in to), but I grew up in the days when fighting was fair.
Fists only and once your opponent was down the fight was over. None of this kicking a man while he is down crap and no weapons at all.
Life would be different today, if those same rules were followed.

[MidnightMike]

At our school we average seeing about 2-3 fights a week.

One of the worse ones was with a couple of fired up maori girls who were doing the norm, tearing out hair, nails in the eyes etc, till they started smashing each others faces into walls. :shit:

Too bad they dont sell popcorn at the canteen.

[Oldfulla]

Bling to you +1


Fight is fricken stupid though.............. No-one wins a fight, both parties get fired up and hurt and it ruins your day/night.



Fighting is bloody pointless, and 9 times out of ten can be avoided. I witnessed some horrible fights while working as a bouncer in Hamilton a few years ago. Always the more brutal beatings happened in the street and were very mismatched affairs. In my opinion and from what I have seen, they all started because of too much alcohol. Don’t get me wrong, I love the stuff, good feelings, but some people change when they drink and not for the good. Some people just don’t know their limits. Men and women can be equally savage and the fights usually start over the most pointless things


The worst thing that I saw was probably errrmmm………. yeah for no apparent reason, a group of young punks (four of them) walking pasted a guy, turned on him, knocked him out and then while he was down, proceeded to beat and kick the crap out of him (lots of head shots, very bloody). He was unconscious and then had a seizure. All this happened in seconds, but was very damaging. The guy was still unconscious 20 minutes later when the ambulance arrived. Lucky the cops weren’t too far away and we managed to round the punks up. Cowardly behaviour.

[Mr Merde]

Been in some nasty fights in my time. Still here so by that reason I have used some really nasty methods and tools to what can be refered to as "winning".

Too many years in the military honed skills that we all have but most dont use.

[idleidolidyll]

The mild fisticuffs between Mallard and Henare got me thinking - what is the most dispicable move you have heard / seen / used in a brawl?

The "Hannible Lecter" would be my vote, as per this incident:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4250634a4560.html

Animals

hard to beat a knife in the back but dropping bombs on civilians from 30,000 feet is right up there too

as an adult i've only ever had 2 or 3 real fights

of course i had lots with my brothers as a kid

[Skyryder]

I've never been a scrapper but the odd fight in my youth occurred. My real problem was getting my head around to hurt the fucker, but once I meant buisness...................good old eye poke usually did the trick.

Skyyrder

[R6_kid]

One night i was at place called soldiers bay on the North Shore, was 18 or 19 at the time. There were loads of 16/17yr olds drinking and as you'd expect 90% of them couldnt handle their piss. My mate was talking to some young guy about what he's been up to and he says he'd on curfew (i thought he meant parents) but he meant :Police:, and i laughed.

That pissed him off, and after having a few more drinks he got angry about it and when i was talking to some random chick with my other mate this guy comes out of no where and starts punching me full strength in the back of the head... i thought that was pretty dirty. Became obvious i wouldnt be leaving without some sort of altercation, and seing that he was a bit smaller than me i took him for what he was worth. I got all of two punches in when three of his mates tackled me out of the way. My mate saw what was going on at this point and started laying into the little shit for starting it.

Then his three mates jumped off of me and started laying into my mate that had stood up for me. Just as i got up and went to try and help my mate they broke it off and made a run for it because by now my mates other friends (about 10 or so of them) had started running down to help.

So this little shit not only couldnt handle his piss, he started a fight he could finish himself by attacking me unprovoked, punching me in the back of the head, then got his mates in to back him up... i think thats pretty dirty. But i'm sure some others hvae better stories than that.

[ducatilover]

no need to fight "dirty" as every scum sucking nig nig and skin head have both an adams apple and a pair of lovely knee caps. i hate wainui for its nig nigs.:devil2::Playnice:

[Wolf]

Only "dirty" fighting tactic I can think of is attacking a person from behind.

With regard to self defence I've been told you do what it takes to get out of the situation as quickly as possible - and you don't let it become a "fight" - fights you can lose. So you take the SoB out as fast as possible and get the Hell out of Dodge.

On the school bus I used to get the old knuckle on top of the head from behind - hurts like hell - and I'd tun around and none of the 4 who could reach me easily (seat immediately behind me and the one behind that) would admit to doing it.

Put up with it for months until I got so fucked off I rose and spun, lashing out my arm in a backfist into the first face I encountered. It was a perfectly scientific movement, roll of hips and shoulders combined with straightening of arm - all nicely fuelled by adrenaline because I was fucked off immensely - my fist made a full 180-degree swing before I hit anything.

Fist smacked into this blokes jaw with a satisfying crack, his head whips sideways and he's got this fucking-great welt on the side of his face, my hand flows through as I go from sitting facing forwards to standing facing rearwards.

Ended up standing looking down at him (a rare feeling for the school short-arse, but he was sitting down at the time) and he let out this indignant "I didn't do it!"

I snarled "You fuckin' let it happen. Pass it on." And sat back down, facing the front, quite prepared to get hit again and was in the mood to go ballistic.

That much adrenaline in my system I didn't give a fuck any more.

Y'know, no one ever hit me on the head from behind after that day.

Odd, eh. :devil2:

Spent the next dunno how long wondering why I hadn't done that the first time I was hit from behind - would've saved myself several unpleasant months...

[Wolf]

The mild fisticuffs between Mallard and Henare got me thinking - what is the most dispicable move you have heard / seen / used in a brawl?
As far as a brawl goes, anything goes. The only rule is to remain upright long enough to get the fuck to safety. If that entails grabbing a fistful of hair and yanking the bastard straight over backwards, kicking his nuts into his chin, poking him in the eyes, taking a good bite or whatever target presents itself or mashing his nose with your forehead, do it.

Do it and get out. Especially in a brawl - you don't want to be one of the poor fuckers on the floor. Stick around long enough, you will be.

That said, I've avoided most physical altercations - chatted amiably with a guy who'd been turfed out of a Wellington club and he had freely admitted to me he went out looking for a fight. I acted so nice he would've felt really stink picking a fight with me.

Another guy did the "what're you looking at" belligerent schtick and I just politely and honestly answered I was daydreaming and wasn't staring at him at all.

Another bloke got bolshy with me in a fish and chip shop and I just laughed at him, turned, wandered over to the arcade game and stood there with my back to him and his 2 mates. I wasn't stupid - I was watching the reflections of all three in the game's screen and was ready to turn (see earlier post) if they tried anything. When you and your two mates are around the six-foot-and-solid mark and a 5'7" scrawny geek laughs at you and turns his back on you, it can apparently be quite disconcerting. They left fairly quickly.

What they didn't realise was that I was shitting myself and so wired on adrenaline that I could hear my own heartbeat.

[P38]

Few years back a guy jumped me in a carpark and being the kinda chap I am I engauged and despatched him with one or two well placed thumps.
What I didn't know at the time was he had four or five more mates who all stepped up at once and although I dont mind a few fisty cuffs I was getting a beating here.
So what else could I do but drop to the ground and roll under a nearby landrover.
I was pretty safe under there, and there wasnt much they could do until one guy thought it was a good idea to put the boot in.
First kick grazed me a bit which musta pissed him off cos the second kick he put a lot more effort into it and thats when there was an almighty crack and things went very quiet.
Yep he snapped his leg so bad his bone was sticking outta his leg. Was pretty gruesome too.
That kinda took the fight outta all of us.
I alway liked Landrovers after that.:niceone:
Anyway the Cops:Police: and Ambos:doctor: turned up and that was basically that.
The Blokes leg healed ok after some time so all was good there.

LOL still it's funny looking back on stuff like that now.

[P38]

Oh an I just remembered I got Bluey from the Albert Hotel in the late 80's for clapping and shaking a mates hand.

Now that was dirty!!!!!

The publican didn't take kindly to my mate punching out a couple of Mongy Prospects in the public bar.

Gave him a Bluey for fighting and me one for congratulating him.

It was probally for the best cos it was a shit bar anyway.

[Headbanger]

Forget the concept of fighting dirty, Fight to win.

And if shits bad and all you do is create an opening to get the fuck outta there, Thats a win. You get to live.

Presuming the other guy won't kill you will get you...uh....killed.

Many years ago me and another guy had a meaningless petty conflict which ended in a confrontation, no sweat at all, Been there before, I can take a punch and throw a few.

30 seconds later I had my throat slit , a knife plunged into my chest, and then both knives sunk into my back after I turned around to get out of there.....

[MaxB]

My missus will be horrified at my posting this but she just won a gold and 2 silver medals at the NZ champs for her martial art.

When she explains the set moves and combinations it seems like fighting dirty but it based on a life and death situation where the winner gets to live. The moves are repeated thousands of times until the competitor executes them without thinking and without hesitation. Nearly everything they do might be considered as dirty but it is about survival and defence. Just one example is where the testicles are torn from the body and handed back to the attacker. I guess the shock, pain and crippling effect gives the defender the chance to escape.

She tells me the best thing about her sport as a woman is not to have to live in fear all the time.

[ducatilover]

. Just one example is where the testicles are torn from the body and handed back to the attacker. I guess the shock, pain and crippling effect gives the defender the chance to escape.
same thing is taught in kyokushin. quite an amusing thing to the younger people that start...:yes:

[BIGBOSSMAN]

If the shit hits the fan you'll be amazed at what you can do to someone in the quest for self preservation. There are no limits when your life is on the line. :(

[Wolf]

When she explains the set moves and combinations it seems like fighting dirty but it based on a life and death situation where the winner gets to live. The moves are repeated thousands of times until the competitor executes them without thinking and without hesitation. Nearly everything they do might be considered as dirty but it is about survival and defence. Just one example is where the testicles are torn from the body and handed back to the attacker.
The kata.

A mate of mine was explaining the kata and showed one that could do "this, this and this" - all pretty much "knock a guy down, blah blah" - as a response to a particular attack. That same sequence of actions - defending against a different attack - can actually be used to tear a person to bits, as in neck snapped.

They train over and over to follow through with the actions and the outcome is automatic - one difference in where the initial hostile strike begins and the end result differs dramatically.

Make this attack, you wind up on the floor in extreme pain. Make a different attack, you never get to feel anything again.

I've done a bit of Judo and Aikido and am familiar with the drilling to the point of being automatic - break falls, mainly. I'm also mindful that even something perceived to be a "soft art" like Aikido is devastating - at white belt level I was being taught techniques to dislocate limbs and leave the opponent incapacitated.

I'd love to learn a shortened form of Aikido. We learned so many different techniques for dealing with the same grabs, holds and strikes. What I'd like to do is learn one defence against each possible attack and drill those over and over until such time as I'm programmed to do them without fail - like I now "instinctively" fall properly. Much better than having to think about which of the techniques for dealing with a right cross I most want to use when the damned thing is already winging its way to my face.

You need all the time to move you can get from the instant their body language telegraphs their intent. Under a serious attack you're going to have enough work to get your block in place as it is, without having to stop and make a choice of which technique to use.

That's where kata are downright devastating. You don't think, you take the incoming strike and deal with it on autopilot.

[Teflon]

When she explains the set moves and combinations.
Those same set moves will most likely get you hurt on the street..

Most martial arts are useless on the street, like Tai kwon do, karate etc.. unlike boxing, tai kickboxing where youre constantly sparing, bag work..

I've seen so many martial artists get beatings on the street, because they have no timing.. and can't take a hit.

Different world out there, nothings dirty.. good luck

[Pancakes]

I used to run "At risk youth" programmes for the police and was taking a group out to do the Round the Mountain track. We were taking at an easy pace and two days in one of the kids lost his heroin stash! He had been given two an uncle when he was only a few weeks old who injected him to make him stop crying and had used ever since. We didn't know he was a user until the withdrawls kicked in. If there hadn't been two SAS guys helping also we would have been dead I'm sure of it. They kept him away from us and from cliffs etc just battling for hours until an army helicopter came to get him. Was an eye opener for me and I'd seen lots of addicts before.

[MaxB]

Those same set moves will most likely get you hurt on the street..

Most martial arts are useless on the street, like Tai kwon do, karate etc.. unlike boxing, tai kickboxing where youre constantly sparing, bag work..

I've seen so many martial artists get beatings on the street, because they have no timing.. and can't take a hit.

Different world out there, nothings dirty.. good luck


The thread is about fighting dirty. I was stating that to observers some martial arts moves might seem dirty.

As for the statement that most martial arts are useless on the street. Mate, that’s a hell of a generalisation. If you saw people taking a beating on the street then I would suggest that they were not true martial artists. Especially if they started it. It is about defence not offence.

In most martial arts the 90-9-1 rule applies. That is, at any one time only 9% will have graded to higher grades and only 1% will be at the elite level. Very few people have what it takes to get to the top; the dedication, the pain, the mental torture, sacrifice, broken bones and the operations. If a guy boasts and tells you he is a black belt he probably isn't. OTOH by the time you find out the skill level of someone you are attacking (a karate ka for example) it will be too late for you.

As for sparring, my missus puts in about 10 hrs per week on the dojo and as much off it. Full punches and kicks are used. We have various punch bags and sparring equipment at home including assorted (secured) weaponry. This is excluding regular training.

I would suggest that once a certain level is reached any fighter will have developed the timing and pain tolerence whatever the technique.

[ducatilover]

Those same set moves will most likely get you hurt on the street..

Most martial arts are useless on the street, like Tai kwon do, karate etc.. unlike boxing, tai kickboxing where youre constantly sparing, bag work..

I've seen so many martial artists get beatings on the street, because they have no timing.. and can't take a hit.

Different world out there, nothings dirty.. good luck

not always true.
if two people are equally trained in two different styles chances are the person with the deeper instinct to kill or leave the "opponent" defenseless will be the person walking away. i have a small amount of experience in both kyokushin kaikan [green with brown tip] and mauy thai [kinda casual] and it really comes down to who wants the other guy dead more.:jerry:

[Wolf]

Those same set moves will most likely get you hurt on the street..
I think you may misunderstand the "set moves" of a kata.

The kata is not a sequence you learn to deal with a predicted or set sequence of attacks (like, say, "the ol' one-two-three"). A kata is what you apply to one attack only - your assailant's first (and final) attack. And you apply all those set moves to that person, irrespective of what he thinks he might want to do, in a matter of a couple of seconds.

An example might be your block shatters the wrist, you trap the arm, break a rib with your elbow while he can't move and, as you turn away, kick him hard in his exposed kidney while he's heading for the floor - that sort of shit. You do it fast - break that rib before he even realises his arm is trapped etc.

In Aikido we drilled one sequence to deflect the incoming fist, trap the arm, shift the person off balance and guide him/her face-first into the floor then drop to our knees (still with the arm trapped in an elbow lock) - one knee landing on the head the other on the ribs (don't want to hurt your knees on the concrete, do you?) tuck the arm across our chest and then roll our torsos to screw the shoulder out of its socket.

As I said before: don't "fight" - take down or take out.

A properly trained martial artist (I'm not, BTW, I've not been graded above white) in a serious threat situation should react to the first assault in such a way as to ensure there is not a second.

The lengthy fight sequences in a Martial Arts movie are staged and choreographed to be showy and they're not hitting full force. In a real hostile situation, there would be a flurry of activity and the attacker would be in serious trouble, having been hit very hard several times in vulnerable places.

And MaxB is quite right - it would look very dirty to an outsider because it's designed to take a person out of the fight as quickly and decisively as possible. No Queensbury Rules, no "forbidden targets". If the manouevre targets groin, throat, eyes and breaks an arm and a leg on the way through, tough shit.

The wanker won't be trying to hit you any time soon, and that's all that matters.

[Mikkel]

When it comes to fighting nothing beats experience. You can practice as much as you want - if you freeze in fear when the other guy pulls a knife/gun/broken bottle on you then it doesn't matter if you got the ultra blackbelt of mad NINJA skillz. And yes, fighting in a controlled environment such as a dojo sparring or a competition is quite a different situation than having to do or die.

Indeed - the best way to resolve a conflict is to end it before it even gets going. It's rare that people will attack "uprovoked" (what constitute a provocation is a fairly loose term though). My advice would be to leave your ego at home - just apologize and GTFO and find a more friendly place.

I haven't had many occassions where anyone has tried to get any action going with me. If I had I'd just try and get away ASAP. And that's despite me being a decent sized bloke (96 kgs) and having 7 years of martial arts experience (Taekwon-do, Jiu-Jitsu and Aikido - and despite what some people say martial arts will at least give you fitness and the ability to read peoples moves). Mainly because you've got nothing to win and everything to loose in a fight.

If I'd get cornered I'd go for punches to the throat and kicks to the side of their knees. If getting into conflict with several opponents, try to move around to keep them on a line so they can't get to you at the same time - and run to split up the group. Fighting 1 on 1 is much much easier than 2 or 3 on 1.

Oh, go to private parties... the piss is cheaper, the music better and you don't have to put up with fuckwits. ;)

[oldrider]

Some interesting observations on this thread but the best defense is to try and avoid the situation where you have to fight at all let alone having to get down and dirty to survive.

Personally, I have been in many literally life and death situations when I was a youngster.

Mostly through my own stupidity and in places I should have avoided (while at sea with merchant navy) especially when pissed etc.

One night in our early married years and while drinking with my friends, the subject got round to the way dangers to women were increasing!

I decided (as you do, when you are pissed) to go home and school Mrs O/r up on self defence.

Got home and she says, your pissed!

I say, you need to learn self defense!

She says, why!

I say, try to hit me. (suffice to say, for the story, I was a little more than competent boxer as a youth)

She says, you are pissed.

I say, it's a dangerous world for women these days, you need to learn to defend yourself.

I shape up and insist that she should try to hit me.

She smacks me in the gob, gives me a fat lip, makes my nose bleed and my eyes water like Niagara falls!

I say, fuck you.

She says, you are pissed.

I say, see you later and go back to my mates, to continue drinking.

They say, what happened to you?

I say, any cunt that fucks round with her deserves all they get!

We all say, cheers and continue to get pissed.

Drinking is difficult, not such fun with a bloody great fat lip.

It's a dangerous world for women all right, they just don't know how much we worry about their welfare. :confused:

They need to learn to fight dirty! :Oops: Cheers John.

[Wolf]

Oh, go to private parties... the piss is cheaper, the music better and you don't have to put up with fuckwits. ;)
Not necessarily. Party chez the neighbour of a friend, we were all over there. Friend had been bonking the neighbour and the neighbour's ex boyfriend turned up to the party, got utterly pissed and then proceeded to punch the shit out of my friend as we both walked through the door into a room. I was directly behind my friend so I wound up slammed into the wall beside the door as my friend reeled backwards under the attack. I grabbed my friend's shoulder and dragged him sideways towards the door so he was able to escape the room (OK, he was more like punched back through the door) and then the drunken ex was hammering my face.

I was taken off guard and rather drunk so I just dropped and slid down the wall, figuring the guy was a) not really after me anyway and b) likely to be appeased if his punches seemed to be working. Didn't think there was much chance of him putting the boot in but I was ready to take a stab at further evasive action if he did. Turned out I was right and, robbed of a target, he buggered off looking to do more damage to my friend.

I raced out of the room, out the back door and ran over next door to my friend's house as there were other guys partying there (the party had grown and encompassed both houses and people had been drifting back and forward all night.)
Raced into my friend's house, said "quick, some bugger's gone berserk and is smashing people up next door"

That had the effect of instant action. All the blokes leapt to their feet and raced out of the house - then buggered off to safety up the road.

I ran back to the nieghbour's house but found the fight had stopped - some numbnuts had held the neighbour's baby up as a shield in front of said drunken aggressor to a) (hopefully) get him to calm down and b) prevent him from punching the cowardly shit who used the baby as a shield.

Drunken bloke wandered off and everyone (who wasn't running up the street in search of a safe place) was rather scathing of the coward who'd placed a baby in front of the fists of a drunken aggressor.

Sadly, nobody beat the crap out of the coward.

That said. That's the only private party I've been to where someone got nasty - and I've been to a few.

But I guess we could add "holding up a human baby as a shield" to the list of dirty "fighting" tactics...

[marty]

The adage "All's fair in love and war" springs to mind. :whistle:

unfortunately it's not, as kiwis insist on bringing hammers, golf clubs, and their steel toe cap boots to a gunfight, and the consequense for them is usually death.

if them and their families then took responsibility for their own actions, there'd be nothing for the media to bleat on about

[Deano]

The worst thing I've seen was in Wanganui after a kickboxing fight night.

While heading into town two guys were fighting outside a pub - one KO'd the other with a punch - he was sprawled on the ground totally out to it. The assailant then decided he would continue to kick the poor bastard in the head while he was down.

Now that's just sick. Then we saw basically the same thing repeated a further 50 metres down the road. We turned round and went back to our motel having seen more than enough.

[Harry33]

The worst thing I've seen was in Wanganui after a kickboxing fight night.

While heading into town two guys were fighting outside a pub - one KO'd the other with a punch - he was sprawled on the ground totally out to it. The assailant then decided he would continue to kick the poor bastard in the head while he was down.

Now that's just sick. Then we saw basically the same thing repeated a further 50 metres down the road. We turned round and went back to our motel having seen more than enough.

Thats the sort of thing that worries me. Fighting isn't a knock out..fight over anymore. I sometime wonder (since I haven't been in a fight for a while) what I would I do if someone tried to have a go. Don't get me wrong I think I would try my best to walk away maybe even run if I had to. ( I can handle being called a chicken) But I also think that if I had no choice and I got the upper hand would I be the one kicking the shit out of someone who started something for know reason.
I know that I wouldn't probably be the only person on here that when pushed would show someone that I have some real anger issues. It's a switch thats not that easy to turn off when flicked. Anyway I don't want to sound like I'm talking myself up. If you want to fight play ice hockey haha it seems to be a done thing in Canada.
I'd rather be a lover than a fighter anyway. If you get the girls name wrong maybe you get both:done:

[Teflon]

As for the statement that most martial arts are useless on the street. Mate, that’s a hell of a generalisation. If you saw people taking a beating on the street then I would suggest that they were not true martial artists. Especially if they started it. It is about defence not offence..

It's a fact mate..

[Teflon]

I think you may misunderstand the "set moves" of a kata.

The kata is not a sequence you learn to deal with a predicted or set sequence of attacks (like, say, "the ol' one-two-three"). A kata is what you apply to one attack only - your assailant's first (and final) attack. And you apply all those set moves to that person, irrespective of what he thinks he might want to do, in a matter of a couple of seconds.

An example might be your block shatters the wrist, you trap the arm, break a rib with your elbow while he can't move and, as you turn away, kick him hard in his exposed kidney while he's heading for the floor - that sort of shit. You do it fast - break that rib before he even realises his arm is trapped etc.

In Aikido we drilled one sequence to deflect the incoming fist, trap the arm, shift the person off balance and guide him/her face-first into the floor then drop to our knees (still with the arm trapped in an elbow lock) - one knee landing on the head the other on the ribs (don't want to hurt your knees on the concrete, do you?) tuck the arm across our chest and then roll our torsos to screw the shoulder out of its socket.

As I said before: don't "fight" - take down or take out.

A properly trained martial artist (I'm not, BTW, I've not been graded above white) in a serious threat situation should react to the first assault in such a way as to ensure there is not a second.

The lengthy fight sequences in a Martial Arts movie are staged and choreographed to be showy and they're not hitting full force. In a real hostile situation, there would be a flurry of activity and the attacker would be in serious trouble, having been hit very hard several times in vulnerable places.

And MaxB is quite right - it would look very dirty to an outsider because it's designed to take a person out of the fight as quickly and decisively as possible. No Queensbury Rules, no "forbidden targets". If the manouevre targets groin, throat, eyes and breaks an arm and a leg on the way through, tough shit.

The wanker won't be trying to hit you any time soon, and that's all that matters.

I think you watch to many movies.. Sure you can "train" to shatter wrists with a block ( LOL), or break ribs, legs, etc.. have you pulled these moves off in a real fight?? - in actual fact, i can see one you dum arses try a triangle chock while getting ya head kicked in.. or trying to land a spinnig heel kick, or back kick...

Just like training with knifes, unless you are training for real, it's worthless.

No disrespect to Martial Artists. My father is 5th dan blackbelt in Tai Kwon Do, switched to boxing, then muay tai and kickboxing; and Jujitsu.

Martial Arts is a false sense of security.

[Wolf]

in actual fact, i can see one you dum arses try a triangle chock while getting ya head kicked in.. or trying to land a spinnig heel kick, or back kick...
Actually, this particular "dum [sic] arse" wouldn't try any of those things.

[MaxB]

It's a fact mate..

I can believe it is a fact that you have seen so called MA guys getting beaten up on the street but I think you miss the point. You say that most martial arts are no good on the street. The point is that they are defensive techniques designed to get you off the street, not getting stuck into street brawls. I took what you said and had a quick poll of incidents and attacks on club members. Not one higher grade had been overpowered or assaulted in over 10 years and that includes assault with a dealy weapon and attempted rape. Thats over 100 incidents and not one serious injury.

I'm not sure about other martial arts but if anyone is caught fighting off the dojo I know of they are suspended. If they started the fight the are banned for life. Hell, they even have a ceremony for it. Ritual humiliation in front of 200 people.

As for pain, you are kidding right? I've seen competitors fight on with broken feet, broken wrists, dislocated shoulders etc. It especially bad in the teams events because to admit pain or show the wrong emotion brings shame to your team.

The trouble with the scene in NZ is that there are few enforcable national standards. Any f--kwit can buy a gym and call themselves 'sensei bozo' and start training. You end up with heaps of badly trained so called martial artists who are a danger to themsevles and anyone they start fights with. Like everything else you tend to get what you pay for.

That will do for now. I just got back from work.

Rant mode off.

[Wolf]

Forget it, Max, Teflon's the world expert on everything - including what we'd do while someone's kicking our heads in - and wants to turn a thread about dirty fighting tactics into a slag-off-martial arts thread.

Back on dirty tactics - at terrible risk of actually posting on topic, Teflon - my dad told me how when he was a lad he'd carry a leather cosh inside his belt band. Being slim and flexible with the lead shot evenly distributed, it was pretty-near undetectable and the loop was positioned so he could hook it with his right thumb - if he squared off against someone he'd do the macho "thumbs tucked in belt" stance and they wouldn't realise he'd just put his thumb through the loop. That way, if it turned into aggression he could whip the cosh out of its hiding place and swing it at their face, which would cause all the shot to bunch at the end of the cosh just before it hit.

I always thought that was a rather dirty tactic - sucker-punching someone with a concealed illegal weapon.

He never mentioned if it was ever found by the cops and what the consequences were if it was.

One of my workmates told me that when he was a lad in London some youths stitched razor blades into the peaks of their caps so they could whip the hat off and flick it across their opponents' faces.

Then there's the famed "Liverpool Kiss" where you grab your opponent's coat whip it open and down until it's halfway down his arms then close it, trapping his arms to his sides. Then you raise a knee and lower your forehead as you yank him sharply towards you. Done right, you should get the knee in his groin and your forehead on the bridge of his nose while he can't punch back.

[Flatcap]

Back on dirty tactics - at terrible risk of actually posting on topic, Teflon - my dad told me how when he was a lad he'd carry a leather cosh inside his belt band. Being slim and flexible with the lead shot evenly distributed, it was pretty-near undetectable and the loop was positioned so he could hook it with his right thumb - if he squared off against someone he'd do the macho "thumbs tucked in belt" stance and they wouldn't realise he'd just put his thumb through the loop. That way, if it turned into aggression he could whip the cosh out of its hiding place and swing it at their face, which would cause all the shot to bunch at the end of the cosh just before it hit.


Where would one purchase one of these contraptions?

Could come in useful for those persistent "trick-or-treaters'

[MisterD]

One of my workmates told me that when he was a lad in London some youths stitched razor blades into the peaks of their caps so they could whip the hat off and flick it across their opponents' faces.


I've heard of that amongst some of the more extreme football hooligans of the late 70s / early 80s... apparently there's also a way of sliding one into the spine of a magazine that makes a good concealed carry.

On the martial arts thing though, I'm very well persuaded that boxers above martial artists were the preferred "minders" in gangland London (and no, not from watching Arfur Daley :laugh:)

[Lias]

No such thing as a dirty move imho. If you want to pick a fight with me I'm not going to fuck around having fisticuffs under the Marquess of Queensberry rules. I'll quite happily go for the knees, groin, throat etc. I'll gouge your eyes, I'll bite your ear, stick my fingers up your nose and rip it off, whatever opportunity presents itself. If there is a weapon to hand and I judge it avantageous to use it I'll happily scone you with a bottle, pipe, or whatever. Whatever it takes to cripple, maim, or disable you and get you out of contention.

[Pixie]

Bart: Dad, remember when Tom had you in that headlock and you
screamed ``I'm a hemophiliac'' and when he let you go,
you kicked him in the back?
Homer: Heh heh heh. Yeah.
Bart: Could you teach me how to do that?
Homer: First you cry like a woman.When he looks away in disgust,you hit him in the throat,kick him in the back,step on his neck and run like hell.

[Wolf]

On the martial arts thing though, I'm very well persuaded that boxers above martial artists were the preferred "minders" in gangland London (and no, not from watching Arfur Daley :laugh:)
Not too surprising, considering you can become a damned good boxer in less time than it takes to become a "serious beginner" (black belt) in most martial arts. Any boxer in the street's going to know a lot of "dirty" (outlawed by that Marquis of Queensbury ponce) tactics to swing the desired outcome in his (or her) favour.

Doubt many would get into "fights" as such - more like a good solid thump or two where it counts and it'd be all over for the recipient.

[Teflon]

Forget it, Max, Teflon's the world expert on everything - including what we'd do while someone's kicking our heads in - and wants to turn a thread about dirty fighting tactics into a slag-off-martial arts thread.

No expert, just been there. The problem is, i don't think half of you have been in, or seen how intense shit gets in a street fight. I have seen loads fights where Martial Artists have cracked under pressure, no rules, no ref.. unable to adapt to the streets.

All i'm saying is, your katas you practice millions of times is not practical on the street.. maybe against someone in the same discipline, but not against a street fighter.

Place a seasoned street fighter in the ring, he will most likely get his arse kicked.

No disrespect.. i've just seen what happens out there..

[Teflon]

No such thing as a dirty move imho. If you want to pick a fight with me I'm not going to fuck around having fisticuffs under the Marquess of Queensberry rules.
No. I think youre supposed to bow and get into your fighting stance. remember, screw punches from the waist...

[Deano]

Just like training with knifes, unless you are training for real, it's worthless.


So training with wooden knives is worthless ? I would beg to differ. Surely knowing how to handle a knife, be it wooden or steel is going to be of benefit.




Martial Arts is a false sense of security.

Maybe for some people - not me and probably not for Peter Bishop either - I will do whatever it takes to stay out of a fight, so there is no false sense of security urging me into one there - however, if I couldn't get out of it, I'd much rather have some training behind me - no fancy moves mind.

[MaxB]

Back in the day, I got into nightclub and security work when I was at uni in Europe. The money came in very useful cos its not cheap to live there. My dream gig was a posh inner city pub, a place where the upmarket crowd wanted to drink in safety.

Most of the fights are a blur. The orders were 'Don't panic the crowd and get the troublemakers outside as quickly as possible'. The one that sticks in my mind was a girlfight along the lines of 'you stole my boyfriend'. After they were put into the street the fight erupted again and suddenly there was a lot of blood on one of them. The cops were called and when they made the arrests they found a potato split in 2 with a razor blade embedded in it.

[Teflon]

Maybe for some people - not me and probably not for Peter Bishop either - I will do whatever it takes to stay out of a fight, so there is no false sense of security urging me into one there - however, if I couldn't get out of it, I'd much rather have some training behind me - no fancy moves mind.
This was a piss-take dude.. thought i'd get more bites than this.

I like winding up the Kyokushin boys.. they get more defensive.:devil2:

[mitchilin]

I don't think I can add much to this thread.I've been bottled (18 stiches).Glassed(19 stiches)Half a dozen black eyes.Most of it while pissed,some not.I've seen dirtier tactics on a Rugby field than some of those situations and I've fucked myself up more on motorcycles than what anyone has given me.There's no such thing as dirty fighting.Fighting does not have rules.What I have learnt is that situational awareness is EVERYTHING

[Wolf]

I've seen dirtier tactics on a Rugby field than some of those situations and I've fucked myself up more on motorcycles than what anyone has given me.There's no such thing as dirty fighting.Fighting does not have rules.What I have learnt is that situational awareness is EVERYTHING
100% agreement with all of that.

[Pancakes]

.....................On the martial arts thing though, I'm very well persuaded that boxers above martial artists were the preferred "minders" in gangland London (and no, not from watching Arfur Daley :laugh:)

Yeah I agree with that. One of my mates Grandads was an orphan in London, started boxing with the Krays and ended up working for them.

[The Lone Rider]

During a fight I have kneed someone in the stomach to make them stop blocking their face so I could hit there - this was during a hockey game though and the guy had been tripping me all game and checking me into the wall when I didn't have possession was the last straw. You would think a ref would call it, but there was no ref as it was suppose to be a casual social day game made up of mixed teams!