Advice: Overcoming a fear of braking

[MotoGirl]

OK, enough is enough! I'm sick of being a pansy and want advice on how I can get over my fear of braking. I got scared of this after low siding my VTR at Taupo two years ago - all because I stayed on the brakes too long tipping into the corner at the end of the straight (old track). I was riding like a bat out of Hell at the time.

Before you give me any advice, I should tell you that I don't have any issues braking in a straight line or to avoid running into that car that's just pulled out in front of me. This is all in my head and I'm only scared of using my brakes as I approach a corner. I've done the RRRS course and was quite happy to have the chain chattering away, and I'll happily grab a handful of brake in a straight line.

Jeez, so how do I get from A to B you might ask? Simple. I use engine braking. I went round Manfield on Saturday and wasn't using any brakes on the track (yeah, go the novice group!). I just slammed it down a gear (or two) on my way into each corner. This was good for the cornering but not so good for speed! I love speed in a straight line.

I freak out if I go into a corner too fast and need to slow down for it. Obviously I'm referring to what's too fast for me. Time with my arse in the seat is helping with some of my confidence issues, but I know I can't ride around without brakes forever. Plus, there's a couple of people I eventually want to give the learn :innocent:

[jrandom]

I like riding without brakes, too, just gears and throttle, but you're quite correct in saying that it's no way to get fast lap times.

I only do it on the road when nobody's watching ;)

I heard some good advice recently for going faster, from an impeccable source.

"Brake later, accelerate sooner."

I personally have the opposite problem to yours - grabbing handfuls of brake right up to a corner doesn't bother me, but I'm still getting my head around cracking the throttle on through the corner and accelerating hard out of it without upsetting the suspension and giving myself the shits. I tend to end up rolling out of corners kicking myself and thinking "I could have got on the gas ages ago".

[White trash]

OK, enough is enough! I'm sick of being a pansy and want advice on how I can get over my fear of braking. I got scared of this after low siding my VTR at Taupo two years ago - all because I stayed on the brakes too long tipping into the corner at the end of the straight (old track). I was riding like a bat out of Hell at the time.

Before you give me any advice, I should tell you that I don't have any issues braking in a straight line or to avoid running into that car that's just pulled out in front of me. This is all in my head and I'm only scared of using my brakes as I approach a corner. I've done the RRRS course and was quite happy to have the chain chattering away, and I'll happily grab a handful of brake in a straight line.

Jeez, so how do I get from A to B you might ask? Simple. I use engine braking. I went round Manfield on Saturday and wasn't using any brakes on the track (yeah, go the novice group!). I just slammed it down a gear (or two) on my way into each corner. This was good for the cornering but not so good for speed! I love speed in a straight line.

I freak out if I go into a corner too fast and need to slow down for it. Obviously I'm referring to what's too fast for me. Time with my arse in the seat is helping with some of my confidence issues, but I know I can't ride around without brakes forever. Plus, there's a couple of people I eventually want to give the learn :innocent:
You need to understand and believe one thing to get better at it.
You didn't crash because of the trail braking. It was most likely the underdamped and far too soft front suspension on the VTR that seeded your new fear.

[MotoGirl]

You need to understand and believe one thing to get better at it.
You didn't crash because of the trail braking. It was most likely the underdamped and far too soft front suspension on the VTR that seeded your new fear.
Cheers Jimmy, I get what you're saying.

I don't entirely want to blame the bike although I agree it wasn't setup for the way I was riding it. We'd never even set up the suspension for me - I didn't understand the benefits of modifying it :doh:

I know the RSV can handle anything I'll ever throw at it. I just need to find the paranoid switch and flick it off!

[White trash]

Yeah, I mean, it's always still the decision making of the pilot that causes the crash. The problem I found with the VTR is that the front suspension is not only bad, it lacks feel. Unlike the SV650 for example, which has pretty bad front forks but you can still sort of feel what the front's doing and therefore how hard to test it.

Umm, PM sent anyway.

[Weaver]

I haven't been riding for very long, and I find that when I'm going into a corner bit fast for me, I tend to brake heavily and I noticed just last week that I usally look at the bank I might crash into. So when this is happening I just look at the exit of the corner, lean into it a bit more and feed it the fat :)

[roadracingoldfart]

I haven't been riding for very long, and I find that when I'm going into a corner bit fast for me, I tend to brake heavily and I noticed just last week that I usally look at the bank I might crash into. So when this is happening I just look at the exit of the corner, lean into it a bit more and feed it the fat :)

Good call to that man .
target fixsation is what we call that and the bike will always go where you look.

I used to run a riding school in Welly and the thing i did with the paranoid was to get the front wheel on a metre square lump of plywood and get them to "slowly" ride foreward and keep the feet on the pegs.
If you feel the bike go out of balance just let the brake of and ride away.
It sounds dangerous but it gives you a feeling of what its like to have a front wheel lockup but also how easy it is to get out of it.... let the brake off.
If it does go wrong its very slow and not much damage will be done.
To anyone that wants to rubbish this theory ill ask them to try it first.
There are many physics rules to overcome to get a bike to corner but it is able to be done due to the suspension and dynamics of the bike,plus a few other things.
The best advice is to keep inside your comfort zone but gradually extend the zone as you feel the comfort level increase.

[puddytat]

Ive been practicing the slow in , fast out approach...trying to make sure I get my braking done in a straight line ,then off the picks, cracking the throttle & tipping in. Been finding Im starting to get in a bit deeper into the corners & if it starts to tighten on me Im not shitting myself...plus a little front brake will pull her round a bit more without me feelin like I'll lose the front end. Well, so far so good anyway !

[SVboy]

This is an interesting thread-keep up the good feedback and useful advise..

[jim.cox]

I personally have the opposite problem to yours - grabbing handfuls of brake right up to a corner doesn't bother me, but I'm still getting my head around cracking the throttle on through the corner and accelerating hard out of it without upsetting the suspension and giving myself the shits. I tend to end up rolling out of corners kicking myself and thinking "I could have got on the gas ages ago".

But you're supposed to feel the bike move around underneath you.

The suspension is not getting upset -merely its loading is changing and the tyres are proabably squirming a bit too

For your dis-ease, I would prescribe a good hard fang on a Ducati as being the best medicine. They LOVE driving out of corners :)

[kiwifruit]

Kick, punch, its all in your mind

[jrandom]

The suspension is not getting upset...

Yes it is, when I'm fiddling with the front brake and don't get around to cracking the throttle on before the apex. The jolt going from a shut throttle to 1/4 open is much more unsettling than winding 1/3 throttle on when it's already cracked open. The twitchy EFI on GSXRs doesn't help. Lazy burbly carburetion makes a sloppy throttle hand so much less problematic.

I have no issues with the back end squirming a little on the gas in corners; I quite like it, as a matter of fact.

Edit: Just to make it clear, my issue is not with winding the throttle on once I'm heading out of a corner; it's with setting the bike up to drive out of it smoothly.

[MotoGirl]

Kick, punch, its all in your mind

So you're suggesting someone kicks and punches it out of me? :rofl: I'm open to all suggestions, but I'll try the others first...

[FROSTY]

Hey MG-that corner in itself can be a total B@#@#@
As others have suggested go back to that incident and figure out what
Happened-
Did you for example hit the dip and bounce out-unloading the front end?

[F5 Dave]

Road-Racin-Gold-Fart, (sorry it just leads itself) erm how does locking up the front wheel in a straight line correspond to loosing it while leant over? While I've saved losing the front leaned over a few times racing & on the dirt (really in the dirt it is just throttle on & hope) there usually little chance of bringing it back once it has unweighted. But one has to live in hope. & yes I have spent a bit of time with plywood (or icecream container lids-wear out quicker but are totally frictionless) at Captain James T Kirks courses many yrs ago, that was always amusing.

I think the only course of action is to practise finishing the braking on the straight and having the bike settled before turning in. That can then be blended into progressively letting the brake go later.

But the key is how you let the brake go. A bike has to be stable before it can corner at the tyre's potential. If one hits the brake bottoming the (allegedly wimpy) forks then releases the brake by effectively letting go the front springs up unsettling the bike & making it feel like it is on the edge of traction as it bounces up & down. Thus making the rider think they were going in to fast & next time brake for longer. Sadly this means the braking is extended to a time when the tyre should be concentrating on cornering force & doesn't have any left for braking. Hence the fall.

Really engine braking isn't a magic brake, it still causes weight transfer onto the front.

If one practises letting go of the brake smoothly and then working up to the same rate that the bike can take it & remain settled big advances can be made. Truly talented riders seem to be able to do this in an incredibly condensed period and then flick the bike on it's side into tight corners while lesser mortals would throw it away if they approached such seemingly violent actions.

[F5 Dave]

Yes it is, when I'm fiddling with the front brake and don't get around to cracking the throttle on before the apex. The jolt going from a shut throttle to 1/4 open is much more unsettling than winding 1/3 throttle on when it's already cracked open. The twitchy EFI on GSXRs doesn't help. Lazy burbly carburetion makes a sloppy throttle hand so much less problematic.

I have no issues with the back end squirming a little on the gas in corners; I quite like it, as a matter of fact.

Edit: Just to make it clear, my issue is not with winding the throttle on once I'm heading out of a corner; it's with setting the bike up to drive out of it smoothly.

Some (esp badly jetted) 2 strokes can be a bit this way coming onto power, the only way I've found to combat it is to pull the clutch a bit to soften the power coming in, the advantage is you are more confident in turning the throttle on a bit earlier. Never really had the problem on my 750 (lovely dirty but smooth flatslides) so not so sure how it would work on larger 4 strokes but may be worth a try.

[MotoGirl]

Hey MG-that corner in itself can be a total B@#@#@
As others have suggested go back to that incident and figure out what
Happened-
Did you for example hit the dip and bounce out-unloading the front end?

Tell me about it!

As for how it actually happened, I can only go by what the other guys on the track told me, and they said I stayed on the brakes too long. I was so surprised to be on the ground that it never really registered how I got there :o

[MotoGirl]

I think the only course of action is to practise finishing the braking on the straight and having the bike settled before turning in. That can then be blended into progressively letting the brake go later.

This sounds like a plan. Like I said in my first post, I don't have issues braking in a straight line. I just don't really use brakes at all when I approach a corner, hence, I don't go barrelling down the straights either.

Here's what I think I should do:
1. Go fast enough down the straights so I need to brake at the end (even if only gently to start)
2. Brake on the straight before I get to the corner
3. Once I get comfortable with slowing myself down, do what White Trash suggested and leave any braking closer to the corner as each lap progresses.

Feel free to rip this idea apart - I'm out to improve my riding, not kill myself!

[steveb64]

Good call to that man .
target fixsation is what we call that and the bike will always go where you look.

I used to run a riding school in Welly and the thing i did with the paranoid was to get the front wheel on a metre square lump of plywood and get them to "slowly" ride foreward and keep the feet on the pegs.
If you feel the bike go out of balance just let the brake of and ride away.
It sounds dangerous but it gives you a feeling of what its like to have a front wheel lockup but also how easy it is to get out of it.... let the brake off.
If it does go wrong its very slow and not much damage will be done.
To anyone that wants to rubbish this theory ill ask them to try it first.
There are many physics rules to overcome to get a bike to corner but it is able to be done due to the suspension and dynamics of the bike,plus a few other things.
The best advice is to keep inside your comfort zone but gradually extend the zone as you feel the comfort level increase.

Target fixation doesn't only occur on bikes - applies to most things that can go fast - cars, skis, pushbikes,... Lost count of the number of times I ended up on my arse (or face) from looking AT the bloody hole or slippy bit I wanted to miss when I was a youf. Got the art of focusing on where I WANT to be now...:dodge::whistle:

Another option for training - get out on a dirt bike - I got an old Yammie XT225 for the wife to thrash around on - before I get her Bandit fixed up. Even make her go out and have a thrash around on it when it's raining (if it's not too cold), so she gets the feel of the thing slipping and sliding around. It's working too - she's getting better and better on it, plus learning things like getting bum off seat, and weight on footpegs to help control things, which also applies to road bikes. Try riding it like an MX'er!

[Arronduke]

"A twist of the wrist 2" written by Keith Code is a book written on the basics of high performance motorcycle riding for the road and the track.

He explains perfectly why we brake to hard for a corner only to have to speed up and why when we panic we go stright ahead.

One of the best things I learned from this book was lifting my eye balls from just in front of my front tyre to way ahead. You acually go where you look...... dam. Lifting your eyes and looking around the corner will have you around the corner in a flash.

becomes second nature after a while.

[MotoGirl]

"A twist of the wrist 2" written by Keith Code is a book written on the basics of high performance motorcycle riding for the road and the track.

Yup, we've got both of those books. I should read them at some point...

[Mountlocal1]

Yup, we've got both of those books. I should read them at some point...

I dont suppose theres a KB library that lends these out? Ive finally fixed the suspension on my bike and am now havn to completly re learn everything Ive been doin... Awsome info! Thanks heaps for bringing this up MG. :2thumbsup

[Storm]

This sounds like a plan. Like I said in my first post, I don't have issues braking in a straight line. I just don't really use brakes at all when I approach a corner, hence, I don't go barrelling down the straights either.

Here's what I think I should do:
1. Go fast enough down the straights so I need to brake at the end (even if only gently to start)
2. Brake on the straight before I get to the corner
3. Once I get comfortable with slowing myself down, do what White Trash suggested and leave any braking closer to the corner as each lap progresses.

Feel free to rip this idea apart - I'm out to improve my riding, not kill myself!

I'd say thats the way to go. A little bit at a time. If need be start out at what feels like a ridculously slow speed(whatever that may be to you) ,that you wouldnt pancake about giving a gentle brake squeeze when necessary. Once you get round a few times, go slightly faster, and so on.
Dont take this the wrong way, but it sounds like its a mental problem ie you remember that you braked in a corner and things went pear shaped. Now, you see corners and have concscious/subconscious flashbacks, so doing it slower and succesfully will hopefully erase bad memories and enable you to do what you need to do without having negative vibes at the site of a bend approaching at pace.
Hope that helps :D

[MotoGirl]

Dont take this the wrong way, but it sounds like its a mental problem ie you remember that you braked in a corner and things went pear shaped.

You're bang on the money there. I don't really want to repeat something that left me with physical and emotional scars!

[MotoGirl]

I think I've figured out a plan and (hopefully) another chicken might find this thread useful.

I got a suggestion to only use one corner to practice on. To do this, I'm going to have to look at the speedo to make sure I'm actually increasing my speed down the straight before the corner I'm practising on.

If I don't increase the speed, I won't have to use the brakes harder and won't learn to use brakes at higher speeds.

Once I've nailed this, I'll start braking later. :devil2:

Thanks for your input everyone!

[MVnut]

Yup, we've got both of those books. I should read them at some point...

Yeah yeah, some point now would be good, and to get get a bit more confidence back in using the front brake further into the turn, back it off a bit at the lever so there's a fraction more play and less instant bite. You 'll find yourself relaxing more about braking so you can be more on autopilot instead of your brain telling you things you don't wanna hear. ciao and yes, practising one corner at a time is good, (gives you more options on the exit) then start stringing em together:banana: you won't go far wrong if you take codgy's advice

[MotoGirl]

Yeah yeah, some point now would be good, and to get get a bit more confidence back in using the front brake further into the turn, back it off a bit at the lever so there's a fraction more play and less instant bite. You 'll find yourself relaxing more about braking so you can be more on autopilot instead of your brain telling you things you don't wanna hear. ciao and yes, practising one corner at a time is good, (gives you more options on the exit) then start stringing em together:banana: you won't go far wrong if you take codgy's advice

Righto then! I'll check them out of the Cajun library and have a looksie.

I agree with you saying it's important to be relaxed on the bike. I've only started doing this in the past few weeks and my riding is probably three times better than it was!

I'm expecting something in my head to just click one day and I'll be back out there giving everyone shit :woohoo:

[Mental Trousers]

I used to run a riding school in Welly and the thing i did with the paranoid was to get the front wheel on a metre square lump of plywood and get them to "slowly" ride foreward and keep the feet on the pegs.
If you feel the bike go out of balance just let the brake of and ride away.
It sounds dangerous but it gives you a feeling of what its like to have a front wheel lockup but also how easy it is to get out of it.... let the brake off.
If it does go wrong its very slow and not much damage will be done.

Hey now that's a much better way of doing it rather than getting people to lock up the front brake on grass/dirt.

As for braking into a corner, one guy I was helping out on the weekend was having trouble braking too heavily when entering a corner. I got him to do all the real heavy braking before he tried to turn in.

Ride towards a corner
Off the gas and start braking enough to make the front suspension dive a bit
After about a half second pause squeeze the brakes much harder
Start easing off the brakes nice and smoothly
Tip in


If you think of it as a percentage from when you start braking it goes something like:

25% ..... 100% ..... 75% ..... 50% ..... 25% ..... 10% .... 0%

Doing it that way you will be coming off the brakes all the way into the corner rather than trying to brake going in. You have to be smooth all the time though, especially coming off the brakes. If you don't you'll load-unload-load the suspension. Easing off the brakes eliminates the unloading of the suspension and it also stops the suspension from pushing the front tyre away from the bike too hard

[HenryDorsetCase]

OK, enough is enough! I'm sick of being a pansy and want advice on how I can get over my fear of braking. I got scared of this after low siding my VTR at Taupo two years ago - all because I stayed on the brakes too long tipping into the corner at the end of the straight (old track). I was riding like a bat out of Hell at the time.



were you gone when the morning came?

oh, and what they ^^^^ said.

[MotoGirl]

If you think of it as a percentage from when you start braking it goes something like:

25% ..... 100% ..... 75% ..... 50% ..... 25% ..... 10% .... 0%

Doing it that way you will be coming off the brakes all the way into the corner rather than trying to brake going in. You have to be smooth all the time though, especially coming off the brakes. If you don't you'll load-unload-load the suspension. Easing off the brakes eliminates the unloading of the suspension and it also stops the suspension from pushing the front tyre away from the bike too hard

I like the sound of that. Thanks!

[Ralph]

Yup, we've got both of those books. I should read them at some point...

Hell, can I borrow those please if your not using them?
Think I'll ask Santa for the set :yes:

There is some great advise here but why wait to a track day.
The best thing I did was go out and practice on a quite piece of road.
When I go out to practice I'll let you know, see if want to join me, up to you.

[Goblin]

Braking is so over-rated. :rolleyes: Just go so slow that you only need to throttle off to slow more for the corner. Then throttle on and away ya go. :D

[MotoGirl]

Hell, can I borrow those please if your not using them?
Think I'll ask Santa for the set :yes:

There is some great advise here but why wait to a track day.
The best thing I did was go out and practice on a quite piece of road.
When I go out to practice I'll let you know, see if want to join me, up to you.

Cheers Mike! Let me know next time you're heading out (021 114 7397).
Oh yeah, the books, I'll check with Cajun but I can't see it being a problem!

[DEATH_INC.]

Yes it is, when I'm fiddling with the front brake and don't get around to cracking the throttle on before the apex. The jolt going from a shut throttle to 1/4 open is much more unsettling than winding 1/3 throttle on when it's already cracked open. The twitchy EFI on GSXRs doesn't help. Lazy burbly carburetion makes a sloppy throttle hand so much less problematic.

I have no issues with the back end squirming a little on the gas in corners; I quite like it, as a matter of fact.

Edit: Just to make it clear, my issue is not with winding the throttle on once I'm heading out of a corner; it's with setting the bike up to drive out of it smoothly.
My old shitta does this, easily fixed by winding the idle up to 3000rpm or so. It makes the transition way smoother....

[DEATH_INC.]

I remember that off Motogirl.....
I'd suggest some sticky rubber for a start, then go out and find a more gentle corner somewhere and practice braking around it, slowly at first, then faster as your confidence increases, you should be much better by the end of the day if you keep at it......
I need to work on this too, years of riding on the dirt and bikes with crossplys has made it real hard to overcome.....
The brake on the straight thing is sweet on the road, but is damn slow on the track.....

[MotoGirl]

I remember that off Motogirl.....
I'd suggest some sticky rubber for a start, then go out and find a more gentle corner somewhere and practice braking around it, slowly at first, then faster as your confidence increases, you should be much better by the end of the day if you keep at it......
I need to work on this too, years of riding on the dirt and bikes with crossplys has made it real hard to overcome.....
The brake on the straight thing is sweet on the road, but is damn slow on the track.....
Yeah that VTR sure wasn't a race bike but that never stopped me wanting to keep up you on your Gixxer! Of course it wasn't your superior riding that kept you in front of me :Pokey:

At Manfield last weekend my speed was basically restricted to how fast I could corner, which I found a bit frustrating because I wanted to go for it!
I'm heading to Taupo again in Dec and sure won't be practicing braking at the end of the back straight because it gives me the shits!

Anyone have any recommendations for a corner to practice on?

[jrandom]

Anyone have any recommendations for a corner to practice on?

End of the back straight at Taupo in December. See you there.

Win or bin!

[MotoGirl]

End of the back straight at Taupo in December. See you there.

Win or bin!

Are you really sure you want to challenge me to that? :rofl:
*puts you on the list to give the learn some day*

[jrandom]

Are you really sure you want to challenge me to that?

What's your best lap time at Taupo so far?

:sherlock:

The loser shall, I think, pay a forfeit...

[MotoGirl]

What's your best lap time at Taupo so far?

:sherlock:

The loser shall, I think, pay a forfeit...

I'd be doing 5 min laps at the moment so you'd better watch out!