Dial 111 and get...........lies!

[Lou Girardin]

The Police Northern comms center has done it again. This time it has a personal effect for me. A farmer was attacked near Te Puke, his wife, Maggie, was a friend and workmate of mine when I lived down that way. It appears that she called 111 when he was being assaulted, the operator told her the farm was surrounded at 6.30AM, in fact the cops didn't arrive till 7.05. In the meantime they held the line open which meant she couldn't call neighbours for help and had to listen to her husband and step-son being attacked.
Aside from the fact that the Te Puke Police station was closed, no-one expects the Police to get there from Rotorua instantly. But why lie to her?
And why prevent her from calling others for help?
Most rural dwellers now know that they can't rely on the Police and have to protect themselves and are prepared to do so.
It's pure luck that Peter and his son aren't dead
It's time for a major clean out of the Police, starting at the top, the so-called 'managers' who are no more than politicised lackeys of the Government.

[sAsLEX]

They are going to be hard pressed stopping people taking the law in to their own hands soon. Why bother with the police, defend yourself by whatever means possible and just dump the bodies out the back of the farm!

[soundbeltfarm]

im on a farm, we all have guns for vermin and nowadays i see intruders as vermin.
if it came to the crunch i reckon i'd use the nessary force to protect my family.
but if some wanker was stealing my gear im not sure what i'd do.
its insured i guess.
hope i dont find out.
ive been burgled before,
at the old farm i was on.\
found out it was a local and i knew someone that knew someone who could sort it out.
and it was sorted.
farmers are easy targets if they arnt living close by their property.

[NC]

You love bagging the police, don't you?

[NC]

I was just wondering, did you talk to Maggie today to hear her whole story? Or did you just read what was in the Herald? Cause we all know what the media is like....

[Posh Tourer :P]

Arent they liable if they allow her to phone her neighbours and they get injured?

[Kickaha]

I was just wondering, did you talk to Maggie today to hear her whole story? Or did you just read what was in the Herald? Cause we all know what the media is like....

Wouldn't matter where he got it he comes across as one of lifes whingers who has made the police his target

Unfortunately like a lot of people Lou will only ever pick out the stuff that serves to further his agenda of putting down the police and will conveniently forget about all the times they get it right

I take it you can prove the accusation that they lied with solid evidence you yourself have gathered,rather than just secondhand evidence from the paper etc

[Hitcher]

Be very careful taking "the law into your own hands".

"Reasonable force" is one thing. Murder is quite another.

Also unless you're trained to attack other people you may end up getting yourself and your family into more trouble then you had intended.

Putting your life on the line to protect property is foolish.

[soundbeltfarm]

Be very careful taking "the law into your own hands".

"Reasonable force" is one thing. Murder is quite another.

Also unless you're trained to attack other people you may end up getting yourself and your family into more trouble then you had intended.

Putting your life on the line to protect property is foolish.


i agree with the property part. you can always get another car or whatnot.
with insurance.

[Paul in NZ]

The Police Northern comms center has done it again. This time it has a personal effect for me. A farmer was attacked near Te Puke, his wife, Maggie, was a friend and workmate of mine when I lived down that way. It appears that she called 111 when he was being assaulted, the operator told her the farm was surrounded at 6.30AM, in fact the cops didn't arrive till 7.05. In the meantime they held the line open which meant she couldn't call neighbours for help and had to listen to her husband and step-son being attacked.
Aside from the fact that the Te Puke Police station was closed, no-one expects the Police to get there from Rotorua instantly. But why lie to her?
And why prevent her from calling others for help?
Most rural dwellers now know that they can't rely on the Police and have to protect themselves and are prepared to do so.
It's pure luck that Peter and his son aren't dead
It's time for a major clean out of the Police, starting at the top, the so-called 'managers' who are no more than politicised lackeys of the Government.

Lou, I'm going to kinda agree with you on a couple of things here.

(inset clunk sound of Lous jaw hitting the ground and several peole muttering in disbelief the Paul N (the Arsehole) has gone over to the dark side)

The 111 system we have (not the Police OK) is a throw back to the dark ages (I built half it) and needs a serious upgrade and overhaul. Starting from how it is funded! Solve that, and every thing else become easier!

I propose a surcharge on every phone bill and a new system run independantly of telecom by the Police BUT funded by every phone, including cellphones!!!!!

Historically, the operator is required to keep the person on the line (insert a bunch of reasons here) for legal reasons that go back a long way. i agree it's a bit daft but consider this objectively, if a firearm incident is going on, is it really wise to get untrained people involved?

Yes, this whole thing was a fuck up for the people involved but lets not shift the focus too much onto the Police. Lets catch the bastards that did it and waste em!

But I agree.... Lets get the 111 system sorted. It might be me in a ditch next!

Paul N

[wari]

GREat ... anutter sir-charge ....

WHy nott just use someoffthe™ $7.4 BIllion sir-pluss ???

I SAy issue all farmerrs with gatling gunns and APV's ...

ALLowem to forme VIG-ill-ante groups ...

MAkem sherriffs and dep-u-ties ...

HEyit worked in the west ... :confused:

I SAy hangem high ... :yeah:

[Fluffy Cat]

I was a cop back in the early 90,s in the UK.There was a home office requirement for response to a 999 call can't remember the time but it was something like 10/15 mins,I know we had more officers but we still had to respond.One question,if the law is an ass and we the people are unable to change our justice system.What do you do?.The law is out of most peoples hands as old Winston Peters showed recently.I don't quite understand reasonable force, the idea of reasonable force comes with hindsight.Something you have after the confrontation not during it i.e home invasion you go in with maximum force to protect your family and yes your property(not everyone has the luxury of insurance)because you can't mind read(Oh were just going to take the cd player and be nice if the owner shows up are we not).
I would like to think every thing was fine but NZ has some probs with the justice system and the Police are caught up in it.

[StoneChucker]

When I was living in Kilbirnie, near wellington airport, one night some guy (in a red top) ran past the front of our house, and threw a rock through the next door shop window. So, I look out our side window (where I see him and the red top), and he stupidly comes back for a second attempt (since the shop had put in reinforced glass, from having the window smashed twice before).

I call the cops, using 111, and give the story and description. LESS than 2 mins later, there are 3 police cars outside my house, one a dog unit (delta I think is the correct name, go Highway patrol and Police 10-7 :) ). The cops call back 5 mins later and say thanks, we caught the guy and he's been arrested.

I think that is amazing service, and response. Count yourselves lucky people, in South Africa, there have been times I've called the police, and they've never even come, not even called to say they weren't coming...
Back to NZ, there have been a couple of stories lately where the police may have gotten it wrong (only 1 which they admit was their fault). Thats a pretty damn good record for the amount of calls they get, and deal with.

I say stop moaning, and get on with it. I know that I'd be really pissed off, even upset, if when I messed up something at work, everyone went ballistic and slagged me off, especially in the media (websites are media too). Now, I know people say things in haste, which they may regret later (me for example, another story from a while back), but I've learnt from that, and now am alot more careful with what I say/write.

"Why can't we all just, get along" :D

[scumdog]

You just don't get it do you stonechucker? - you're not meant to make so much sense on this site, you are meant to rant'n'rave full of emotion and empty of sense, get hold of Lou and he'll put you right as to what is expected and how to get the 'facts' :blah: :msn-wink: :whistle:

[manuboy]

Anyone on this site connected with the media in any way? Or with how they're "TRAINED"? Cos i'm absolutely positive that they're more sensationalist these days than news-worthy.

Theyre also majorly into copycat reporting. A while ago, any dog that snapped it's jaws at a passing fly was Big News. How long since we heard a dog bite story? Has nobody been bitten by a dog in the last year?

Now it 111 Stories. Before last week, did the 111 service never ever get it wrong?

DONT BLAME THE COPS. BLAME THE FUCKING MEDIA. THEY'RE C**NTS.

Okay, so it was bad what happened - n oargument there, but they make out like the pleece do it all on purpose! Like they put us in danger cos they can't be arsed or something. Wrong Wrong Wrong!

Lou, i reckon if you started from scratch, you'd end up with something that improved in some ways and just got worse in others... no organisation that big can be close to perfect. What matters is that they keep trying...

[NC]

Theyre also majorly into copycat reporting. A while ago, any dog that snapped it's jaws at a passing fly was Big News. How long since we heard a dog bite story? Has nobody been bitten by a dog in the last year?



DONT BLAME THE COPS. BLAME THE FUCKING MEDIA. THEY'RE C**NTS.




Dude, your so right!
I was just about to make this same point, then I read your post.
It's true about the dog attacks, all of a sudden there are savage dogs attacking children last year and the media is all over it, rarking everyone up..all dogs are bad!! Frikken corgi's are one of the top breeds that attack people (Bungbung got away with it cause he was "wooing") but they wont stop breeding them...most likely cause the Queen has them as pets. Yet they ban other breeds (I understand why, but stilll)
Control the owners not the dogs.

As for police comms, I used to have to deal with them alot. And in the weekend sometimes you would have to wait for 3 mins for them to pick up if you dialed 111, but we had a private number for us.. even so sometimes I had to wait a little for them to answer the call.
They are doing their jobs, answering the calls. They aren't sitting there sipping cherry and smoking cigars...
People have to understand, comms aren't there with you, they can't see whats going on, and they are doing the best they can to HELP you.


And the media, jesus!
No one shits on them when they stuff up eh?

[Paul in NZ]

The media in the modern age exists to sell copy and line to pockets of the Rupert Murdochs of the world. Gutter press has taken over virtually all forms of reporting reducing it to entertainment with the possible exception of the trade and special interest magazines. Even my beloved 'Classic Bike' is turning into an advertising monthly with stuff all meaty articles or good info. Christ, look at the NBR's hatchet job on Dick Hubbard? That used to be a respected source!

I doubt the media is at all interested in a proper solution as it would take too long to explain to the slack jawed box watchers that gaze into their tellies every night filling the advertising industry with spasm's of delight over every disaster! All they care about is the number of eyeballs watching. They can be mentally retarded poodles (as long as they can complete the survey) for all they care as long as they have eyes.

And thats it isn't it! Why is it so important that your TV news attracts the most viewers? Because then the rates at which you can sell your ever increasing advertising minutes go up and up and up to pay the bloated paypacked of the septic dwarf of Auckland and his sorry imitators.

Oh, they do some good (like building that family a house) but usually in public complete with chargeable miutes...

The current 111 system is not good enough. What is needed is a decent system that includes the mental health, CYPFs, Coast Guard, CoC, Customs, Search and Rescue, Armed Forces and Civil Defence. Location based services (like in the USA) that can roughly triangulate caller position from mobiles and proper voice recording etc. Included should be statutes to penalise those that abuse the system!

The current system has to change anyway. it's a part of the old TASS system on our NEC NEAX exchanges that are on the way out. the new system needs to be totally independant of telecom and any one carrier. The old model dates back to the NZPO days!

Every phone that can make a call MUST contribute to this system! Including pre paid mobiles! It's not a bloody surcharge it's an essential safety tool similar to buying a smoke detector.

Frankly, it would the best investment you would ever make!

Just one call could save your life!

Paul N

[Motu]

A few months ago a girl came hammering on our door,screaming and crying - the thug out on the road had been smacking her around and she was scared of him.I tried to get her inside,but the hoodie called her back and she went out again.I watched them walk up the road,he was trying to clip her in the head,but she kept ducking away.I rang 111 and asked them for a drive by to see if they could help her,seeing as I couldn't.I was impressed with how I was treated,they treated it as a serious call,assured me they would look into it,they verified my address and name over the phone (I'd only been there a couple of weeks).It wasn't a life and death call,I could of just ignored the whole thing,so could of they - I have no complaints with 111.

[marty]

when comms went to auck/wn/chch, centralised from all the small towns (hamilton/tauranga/rotorua) there was much dissention amongst local guys that it wouldn't work. the reality is, is that the service has deteriorated so much, that the street guys are 'used' to it, and make little effort to change it, as they all know that so much money was spent on it, that it is unlikely to be returned to the way it was.

one of the options when comms was being centralised, and this is a true story, was to operate all NZ police radios and police 111 calls from MELBOURNE - yes melbourne AUSTRALIA. this was a financial consideration, and i have heard a little rumour that this option is being explored again, as they are having continual difficulty getting reliable experienced staff, and the victoria operation is pretty streamlined - looks after more than the population of NZ already, in one location, looks after a bigger 'acreage' than NZ already, and could comfortably take the relatively small number of calls from over here. who ya gonna call then?

[Yamahamaman]

I thought that the World Call Centre was located in Bangalore.

[spudchucka]

Wouldn't matter where he got it he comes across as one of lifes whingers who has made the police his target

Unfortunately like a lot of people Lou will only ever pick out the stuff that serves to further his agenda of putting down the police and will conveniently forget about all the times they get it right

I take it you can prove the accusation that they lied with solid evidence you yourself have gathered,rather than just secondhand evidence from the paper etc
Nice one!! :first:

[Blakamin]

I thought that the World Call Centre was located in Bangalore.
When ya dialed 111 you shouldnt have asked for microsoft!!! :shifty:

[spudchucka]

Arent they liable if they allow her to phone her neighbours and they get injured?
Not very likely but it would give the Lou's of the world something else to bitch about.

If she really wanted to ring someone else why didn't she just hang up the phone?

[merv]

Not very likely but it would give the Lou's of the world something else to bitch about.

If she really wanted to ring someone else why didn't she just hang up the phone?

Isn't the problem they were talking about with 111 is that the call can be locked on, so hang up your phone, pick it up again and you are still connected to the 111 line?

[spudchucka]

Isn't the problem they were talking about with 111 is that the call can be locked on, so hang up your phone, pick it up again and you are still connected to the 111 line?
That could well be the case, I don't know but I know of many cases where informants have hung up on the operator and then won't answer the phone when the operator tries to call back. Someone on this forum has technical experience with the 111 system and could no doubt answer that question.

[Indiana_Jones]

In a way I feel sorry for the police, it's catch 22 for them.
If they use their force people complain.
So then they play it safe, then people complain.

In this PC age, criminals have more rights then the cops and victims :doh:

-Indy

[scumdog]

In a way I feel sorry for the police, it's catch 22 for them.
If they use their force people complain.
So then they play it safe, then people complain.

In this PC age, criminals have more rights then the cops and victims :doh:

-Indy

Dead right!

Also, due to the efforts of the media in the last month I know of quite a few instances where the actions of those Police dealing with a job is hinged around the thought that "if it doesn't pan out and things go wrong how will it look in the media" - not the way a person should HAVE to work. :mad:

[Paul in NZ]

That could well be the case, I don't know but I know of many cases where informants have hung up on the operator and then won't answer the phone when the operator tries to call back. Someone on this forum has technical experience with the 111 system and could no doubt answer that question.

My technical knowledge is not right up to date as I have flown a desk for a couple of years but it was a requirement that the operator (the telecom one that answers the call) must have a feature (called manual hold from memory) to hold the call up.

There are a lot of these features hung over from the 'old days' such as the operator being able to interupt a call if the line was busy etc

That allows the policeman to visit the address and speak to the operator thus legally verifying that this was the line the call was made from (ignoring the fact that I could have used a handset to call from the RLG but..)

This was important in the pre electronic age of electro mechanical systems when calls had to be traced physically.

I doubt it matters now when everything is logged and call traces are software driven.

Paul n

[marty]

My technical knowledge is not right up to date as I have flown a desk for a couple of years but it was a requirement that the operator (the telecom one that answers the call) must have a feature (called manual hold from memory) to hold the call up.

There are a lot of these features hung over from the 'old days' such as the operator being able to interupt a call if the line was busy etc

That allows the policeman to visit the address and speak to the operator thus legally verifying that this was the line the call was made from (ignoring the fact that I could have used a handset to call from the RLG but..)

This was important in the pre electronic age of electro mechanical systems when calls had to be traced physically.

I doubt it matters now when everything is logged and call traces are software driven.

Paul n
under the old (early 90's) system we had the ability to put 111 callers on hold and answer others, (often 10 people will call about the same job - 9 of them will be 3rd hand informants), mainly to establish if they were about the same job. we could even answer up to 5 at the same time, and have them all talking over each other if we wanted. also, the call taker sat right next to the dispatcher, and could verbally pass the job, also the dispatcher could listen in opn the call, getting 'live' updates.
the new system doesn't allow for any of that. 111's cannot be put on hold, the call must be finished before the next one is answered. when you've only got 4 call takers for the upper north island, and 3 of them are on 'non-emergency' 111's you can imagine what happens....
the dispatchers can't listen in, they have to wait for typed updates. there is no calling across the comms room for quick information - there is just too much else happening and noise is an issue.

now i have long been a critic of the north comms centre, but calls from people saying 'i'm pissed and some guy wants to have sex with me - come and pick me up' , just doesn't fall into the realms of a 111 emergency. (that is how the 111 call is answered after all). the lous of this world want to live in a society free of police involvement and intrusion, yet they critisise them when they make a decision to do something other than get directly involved. then even when they do get directly involved, they still find ways to slag them off. it's a no-win situation.

here's a scenario - the farmer who was being attacked. his wife is on the phone to police comms. she is their only link to the scene. the local cops, (2 GDB) arrive, and contain as best they can. comms would probably not allow then to go in - they have to set a safe forward point up, contain the scene. they call AOS from rotorua. AOS have to get up, get to the station, get cammed up, and get to the scene, to the safe arrival point. they don't just go in guns blazing - public pressure and do-gooders have put paid to that. by all accounts the local guys could have been there at 06.30. AOS arrives at 0705. only then would the farmer see any police.

now if she was allowed to hang up and call neighbours. the link to the scene is lost. cops have no idea what is happening. neighbour turns up with his 9-shot shot gun. blazes around the place. shoots someone as they are leaving the address, he's no longer a risk, but angry farmer dude shoots anyway, killing one of them! farmer guy has no legal grounds to shoot him. farmer guy is up for murder, and is gonna go to prison for shooting some scum sucker. sound familiar?

or worse - getaway driver guy has a gun that they stole from the farm house up the road. angry neighbour farmer guy comes raacking up the drive lights on high beam etc. gets picked off by getaway driver dude as he's walking to the farm house. police have no idea this is happening, as mrs farmer has been found and beaten up also so she can't call back, and it's turning to custard very quickly.

[Lou Girardin]

I have to most humbly apologise;
According to the Police, the problem was that the comms centre operator saw on her screen that the Police were 'en route'. She took this to mean that they had the property surrounded.
It seems that a lot of the 111 problems will be solved when they hire people with English as their first language.