Have the Police blown it?

[WelshWizard]

check out the link
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/organisation/story.cfm?o_id=131&objectid=10482735


cut and paste of part of article

Public confidence, once eroded, is difficult to reclaim. Recovery is not impossible, however. Unstinting effort to the highest standard provides a strong foundation for rebuilding a reputation. The police have made a good start.

Their much-troubled year has been salvaged to a degree by the Independent Police Conduct Authority's findings on Operation Austin, the investigation of Louise Nicholas's revelations. Few such inquiries could have delivered such ringing praise.

The authority's report adds to ground that has been traversed extensively since Mrs Nicholas went public with allegations of pack rape in the Bay of Plenty in the 1980s by Clint Rickards, who has now resigned as an assistant commissioner, and Brad Shipton and Bob Schollum, his now-jailed police colleagues.

The standing of the police suffered as the trio were twice acquitted in controversial trials, and an inquiry into the handling of sexual complaints against officers damned police culture and made a staggering 60 recommendations for change.

[Genestho]

I personally feel that there are bad eggs in every section of society.

Most Police are trying to do what they can within the boundaries of the law.

Those three cops and the people and system that allowed the coverups were the bad eggs and I have no doubt that there are more.

I used to work in Promotions and Mr Brad Shipton hooked onto me and decided he wanted to shout me drinks all night, I was warned many times that night to watch him, as his reputation was sleazy.
I know how to take care of myself and I let him know it, I let him shout me drinks all night, and walked away unscathed, empty wallet, and still sober. I have never seen him again. And when a couple of years later his name came up in these cases, I was gob smacked.

There was no way that Louise wouldve put herself through all this for no reason, fame? Who could feel famous revealing what she did.
Pity Rickards did not face what he shouldve. I feel that by leaving the force he has admitted his guilt.
There had to have been an investigation of the outcomes. Kiwis were not impressed and were outraged.

Good on the Herald recognised Louise as a NZ'er of the year.

As for the Ureweras, we still dont know all the evidence and maybe never will, the media's coverage of this case has probably enabled each charge to be thrown out.

The Northcomms call lines...supposedly there is also an investigation into *555, after the shocking and shonky contradictory answers I have been given, in regards to processes and expected outcomes of a call (or even which call line).
I have told investigators that NZ deserves better.
I wait with baited breath. Still promoting *555
Throughout my life I have seen both the good side and the bad side of the Police. The officers I have personally dealt with since my husband was killed have been awesome.
But I do believe without them we are chaos.

[Subike]

The Police can only work inside the guidelines that is given to them by the govening body that employs them
I feel that if the police were allowed to do their job, without the P C brigade hounding them, then we would be better off
Remember they dont make the rules , just enforce them.
If they were asked what they would concentrate on , I bet speeding would be one area that would become a low priority. Chasing Marajuana growers would be reduced and the chasing of real crimes with real penalties would increase.
The police are restricted by the courts and Gov as to what they can do.
Target areas are set by the Govt, not police bosses.
If the police were to target Burglaries with the same effort as they are told to target road users, burglaries would be reduced.
Iff the police were to target assults of all types, and not the anti smaking laws, gangs would probably also be reduced.
If the police were able to lock a person up for real jail time instead of the stupid porole system we have, there would be less crims on the street.
If offenders were allowed to be charged from theie first offence, age say 8 - 9 them fear of the police would become real, not a joke.
Kids can get away with heaps, because they are deemed as not responcibile till , what, 14? The kid crims laugh at the police, an attitude they carry over into adult life.
So I M O they do their job as best they can inside the rules they are given.

[deanohit]

No, as while they are still extremely slow sorting out some serious cases for me, they have always been there when needed immediately.

[Skyryder]

I don't have as much faith in the Police as I use too. I acknowledge that they have a difficult job but they start on one of the higest saleries that compensates for this and are well paid .

It has been my concern for sometime that many police forget that they are our servants and we are not theirs. The Rickard thing with his associates is symptomatic of this and I have not not noticed much difference when it comes to police PR with the intention of defending their own. I am not suggesting that they should publicly hang someone out to dry but I get the distinct impression that Police culture is more concerned with their own well being instead of ours.

Skyryder

[The Stranger]

I don't have as much faith in the Police as I use too. I acknowledge that they have a difficult job but they start on one of the higest saleries that compensates for this and are well paid .

It has been my concern for sometime that many police forget that they are our servants and we are not theirs. The Rickard thing with his associates is symptomatic of this and I have not not noticed much difference when it comes to police PR with the intention of defending their own. I am not suggesting that they should publicly hang someone out to dry but I get the distinct impression that Police culture is more concerned with their own well being instead of ours.

Skyryder

Jesus IIIRyder, why is it you cherish these antic in your beloved labour party then yet condemn them in the Police force?

[scumdog]

... but they start on one of the higest saleries that compensates for this and are well paid .
Skyryder


There's the first fallacy in your argument.

[Blue Velvet]

There's the first fallacy in your argument.

+1

http://www.police.govt.nz/recruiting/role.training.html

Salary details

Upon graduation you will earn a salary of $45,271 per annum and be entitled to a total package of $50,714 per annum.

While training at Police College you are paid $34,758 per annum.

[Monsterbishi]

I respect any person who elects to take a job that has a 50% chance of being involved in a serious assault at any given callout!

Not enough police, too many crims/lawbreakers - that's the real issue in New Zealand.

[ManDownUnder]

I acknowledge that they have a difficult job but they start on one of the higest saleries that compensates for this and are well paid.

umm - respectfully... no

Teachers, Nurses, Police... all grossly underpaid, undervalued and overworked (read ADMIN) members of society. Add in the fact they're shiftworkers which nicely erodes a number of familial and social aspects of their lives and presto...

You have a job you'd have to want to do. It's not going to be for the money.

[Hitcher]

No, the Police haven't "blown it". As our society moves increasingly away from any sort of belief in personal responsibility or communities that care about their constituents, then all manner of crap ends up in the Police's lap -- stuff we should be sorting out ourselves. And they're under-resourced and underpaid. And they're people too: imperfect, just like the rest of us.

People who live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones.

[tri boy]

I hope that I never lose faith in our Police, because the alternative to a stable Police force is too scary for me to consider.:eek5:
Anarchy isn't what this country needs. More self control, discipline, and good will
is a pretty good xmas wish.;)

[MSTRS]

Anarchy isn't what this country needs. More self control, discipline, and good will
is a pretty good xmas wish.;)

Anarchy doesn't just mean lawlessness. A society that is self-regulating through self-control etc without 'externally' imposed rules would be anarchic, but perhaps even more desirable than your xmas wish?

[Renegade]

nope, there will be dick heads in every part of soceity, but when you call them they are there, they do all the jobs no one even things about, picking up the dead, picking up the mentals (cos the mental health system is shot), sorting out peoples domestics (cos people cant sort out their own crap), trying to maintain order on the drunken fri/sat nights streets, going to crashes cos people cant drive, trying to educate kids on road safety and stranger danger,

then you have the crims who want them dead and some times try tomake it so, they have to go in with guns and risk being beaten, stabbed and shot at.

they are the ones who are accountable for every thing they do and get examined and microscopically pickedto peices if they stuff up.

they still have to do uni papers in their own time to even keep their job after leaving police college.

then there is the shift work to manage along side family and whats left over a social life and all this for less than 50k a year??

yet the polititicans get 150k a year to talk shit and argue like school kids, get nothing substantial done while being accountable for nothing.

a policemans lot aint to flash.

yet the public bag the crap out of them, i say if ya dont like them dont call them when you need them, this whole " they serve us" thing is crap. :angry:

[Skyryder]

+1

http://www.police.govt.nz/recruiting/role.training.html

Salary details

Upon graduation you will earn a salary of $45,271 per annum and be entitled to a total package of $50,714 per annum.

While training at Police College you are paid $34,758 per annum.

Yep some fallacy.

skyryder

[Skyryder]

+1



[QUOTE=The Stranger;1346601]Jesus IIIRyder, why is it you cherish these antic in your beloved labour party then yet condemn them in the Police force?

I don't believe that I have 'cherished' any antics with Labour. See my posts on Benson-Pope as an example. I like to think that I can see the differnce between a rape and political decision even thought that decision many believe to be unethical.

Skyryder

[kave]

After having to wait four hours for the police to turn up to a 111 call, when there was a violent person outside trying to break into a friends house hours after he had been released from prison, I have lost faith in the police.
I am not anti-police, I just understand that they are understaffed, underfunded and mismanaged to the point where they have become useless. I believe that most police officers are worthy of respect, but that the force as a whole is a farce. Even when the police do manage to get a criminal into court, the justice system is so toothless that they must be left wondering why they bothered.

[Blue Velvet]

...I acknowledge that they have a difficult job but they start on one of the higest saleries that compensates for this and are well paid


Yep some fallacy.

I disagree. It's not well paid. Above 'average' perhaps, if you're comparing stats from NZ Labour Market surveys. But considering skilled vs unskilled and all the other variables that come with the police profession, it's low.

[MSTRS]

Even when the police do manage to get a criminal into court, the justice system is so toothless that they must be left wondering why they bothered.

As do we, as do we.

[Swoop]

I feel that our Police are indicative of our society as a whole. Completely overburdened by bullshit paperwork and administration.

Shortage of police officers? No. Just get the rest of them back on the beat where they belong.
Response times will fall dramatically.

[spudchucka]

Yep some fallacy.

skyryder

Would you do the job for that kind of money?

[Pex Adams]

Christ I've wasted my time reading some crap on this site in the past - but Skyryder you really must have your head up your ass, or can you get someone to get you a bib for christmas, to whipe that verbal diaorrhoea from you lips!!!!

How can you say that the police are well paid on $50K per annum???
Thats a crap wage, and you know it. There is no way anyone on that income could even afford to save up to buy a house in todays market, yet alone actually pay the mortgage for the house once they've purchased it - then add to that what if they have a family, superannuation blarblarblar...
Then add on top of this, everytime they do there job they get critised by halfwits like yourself, who think anyone who wears a blue uniform is a waste of oxygen.

Why don't you actually spend half a day going out with some cops and actually see what really goes on in the job, and then come back and tell me they are underpaid.

You really have NO IDEA what your talking about!!!!

[sunhuntin]

there are bad eggs in every bunch... but just because some have bad pasts, doesnt mean they all do.

i have much respect for the police force in general. most of the local cops i know are great people. i do what i can by givin em a smile when they come in for gas and asking a bit about their shift [ie busy or quiet]
the cop that breath tested me down south and then accused me of breaking the speed limit... hes a jerk in uniform, but im betting that once hes just a normal guy spending time with his wife and kids, hed give the shirt off his back.

while the wage may seem high, it aint really. i read a quote in a paper once after a crim was shot [i think.] cop said "we dont get paid enough to go home in a box" and its damn true. when the face of death looks at you for every call out or car pulled over, it sure as hell aint enough.

[Mr Merde]

..... when the face of death looks at you for every call out or car pulled over, it sure as hell aint enough.

Please explain this statement.

Is New Zealand that dangerous that police officers are in fear for their lives whilst performing their duties?

When was the last police officer unlawfully killed whilst on duty?

Is it our increasingly violent society (?) or is it just a projection of the distrust in our police forces that seems to pervade society?

Apparently (according to government figures) the average wage in NZ is about $25,000. Yes I would call a salary of twice the national average as a career start, high.

I for one would love to see a return to the policing of years gone by. Where a police officer was out there actively trying to deter crime and solve those that have taken place, rather than enforcing a collection agency for those in dictatorial control of the populace who manufacture "crimes" in order to increase their coffers.

Bring back the DOT. Put the average cop back on the beat as they have done in a lot of cities in the UK (to good effect). Drastically cut the buearocracy that burdens those on the frontline and give the courts and prison service the means to make committing a crime something to be avoided. Clean out those persons in the justice system whose job it is just to administer those who do the work. Make it better for them to be actually doing something rather than administering.

My 2c worth, I'll go back to sleep now.


Merde

[Blue Velvet]

...Apparently (according to government figures) the average wage in NZ is about $25,000. Yes I would call a salary of twice the national average as a career start, high...

Skilled or unskilled?
What field?
Etc, etc.

It's not high for the type of work and the conditions. I don't think working off the national average wage or salary is relevant.

[sunhuntin]

it was merely considering the fact that many nzers are volatile, and the majority of call outs/car pull overs have a chance that the suspect might be on drugs and not exactly thinking right. new zealand society IS becomming increasingly violent, and those that usually fall under that also have a mistrust of the cops, but not for the offences of rikkards etc. its more a mistrust borne of a fear of getting caught.

motorway patrol: how many vehicles pulled up and searched are found to have guns, drugs and other stuff in them? same with police 10/7... how many suspects on that go to a house with that same stuff just waiting to be used? or domestic call outs... tense occupants, possibly highly violent.

there is a high chance that any call out may be that officers last.

i also would like to see beat and traffic cops seperated again.

[mstriumph]

i've abstained

-- i've no 'faith' to lose, per se .....

i have always 'distrusted' talk of a 'calling' to any profession - feeling that most people do things for reasons that suit themselves, no matter what the hype they [or others] wish to put on it ...

i've never expected the police to be composed of saints
- or sinners
- or ANYTHING other than the normal mix of competent and incompetent, trustworthy and venal that comprise the ranks of any employment demograph ......

so - as i've never been a believer, i have no faith to lose :Police:

[Mr Merde]

it was merely considering the fact that many nzers are volatile, and the majority of call outs/car pull overs have a chance that the suspect might be on drugs and not exactly thinking right. new zealand society IS becomming increasingly violent, and those that usually fall under that also have a mistrust of the cops, but not for the offences of rikkards etc. its more a mistrust borne of a fear of getting caught.

motorway patrol: how many vehicles pulled up and searched are found to have guns, drugs and other stuff in them? same with police 10/7... how many suspects on that go to a house with that same stuff just waiting to be used? or domestic call outs... tense occupants, possibly highly violent.

there is a high chance that any call out may be that officers last.

i also would like to see beat and traffic cops seperated again.

The UK, which as a society suffers a much higher level of violence in the streets, has re discovered the benifit of putting the police back on the beat. They dont just drive around but have an actual route they have to patrol on foot. Too what result? Much more community involvement and strange as it seems a lower level of crime in those areas. The local bobby gets to know their area and the people in it and therefore are more in tune to what is going on in them. What do we have here? An officer in an expensive car driving around their area without really getting to know it.

I had a friend in Cardiff by the name of Viv Brooks. He retired as Sth Wales Police Assisant Cheif Constable. In the early days of his carreer he walked the beat around "Tiger Bay" (the docks). Everyone knew him and he put the fear of god into those who disturbed his patch. This was in the 50's. In the 80's when I knew him they still talked about Viv with respect down in the docks. He knew everybody and everything that was going on. He knew when there was something not right in his area and the people respected him enough to talk to him and inform him when there was a problem.

Where is that community involvement now.

30 years ago if a cop was in serious trouble "joe citizen" was more than likely to come to his assiatance. Now they have had to pass a law to make it a "crime" not to assit a police officer if requested.

Where is the trust and respect?

Both of these are earned, in all aspects of human relations, they need to be earned again by our police forces. Assistance out of respect rather than fear must be more productive.

Back to sleep

[Mekk]

I'd normally contribute to this kind of thread in a passionate manner but I lost faith in The Herald long before thinking about losing faith in the Police.

[Mr Merde]

I'd normally contribute to this kind of thread in a passionate manner but I lost faith in The Herald long before thinking about losing faith in the Police.

I can understand that. The popular press is just that, popular. As such they do tend to pander to whatever they feel may increase sales. It is very hard to get an honest and objective view from the rags today.

Another loss to modern society.

[spudchucka]

Is New Zealand that dangerous that police officers are in fear for their lives whilst performing their duties?
More often than any of you could ever comprehend.


When was the last police officer unlawfully killed whilst on duty?
September this year - Enzo.
Prior to that 2002, Duncan Taylor. He was a proper good bugger.


Apparently (according to government figures) the average wage in NZ is about $25,000. Yes I would call a salary of twice the national average as a career start, high.
The minimum wage has just gone up to $12.00 per hour. 12 multiplied by 40 (hours) multiplied by 52 (weeks per year) equals $24,960 per annum salary / wage.

I'd hardly think that anyone of average intelligence would attempt to pass off the minimum wage as being the national average wage, the current government excluded of course.

The better method of determining whether the police starting salary is a fair salary to start on would be to look at the average wage of the demographic that they are trying to recruit taking into consideration, age, education, experience etc etc. Most people in their 30's or 40's take a fairly significant pay decrease when they join the police. Personally it cost me 20K when I joined up.

[Skyryder]

Christ I've wasted my time reading some crap on this site in the past - but Skyryder you really must have your head up your ass, or can you get someone to get you a bib for christmas, to whipe that verbal diaorrhoea from you lips!!!!

How can you say that the police are well paid on $50K per annum???
Thats a crap wage, and you know it. There is no way anyone on that income could even afford to save up to buy a house in todays market, yet alone actually pay the mortgage for the house once they've purchased it - then add to that what if they have a family, superannuation blarblarblar...
Then add on top of this, everytime they do there job they get critised by halfwits like yourself, who think anyone who wears a blue uniform is a waste of oxygen.

Why don't you actually spend half a day going out with some cops and actually see what really goes on in the job, and then come back and tell me they are underpaid.

You really have NO IDEA what your talking about!!!!


Try reading my post again. Look for the word 'start' and try and figure it's meaning in the sentance. Failing that read Mr Merd's post. He at least can comprehend english. If that is all too difficult go back to school, better start at kindergarten seems you need to understand basic grammer.

Skyrder

[spudchucka]

Try reading my post again. Look for the word 'start' and try and figure it's meaning in the sentance. Failing that read Mr Merd's post. He at least can comprehend english. If that is all too difficult go back to school, better start at kindergarten seems you need to understand basic grammer.

Skyrder

Are you trying to be the new Hitcher or something? Your grasp of the English language seems to be a strained relationship most of the time so don't poke sticks at others.

Sentence
Grammar
English

[Blue Velvet]

The better method of determining whether the police starting salary is a fair salary to start on would be to look at the average wage of the demographic that they are trying to recruit taking into consideration, age, education, experience etc etc. Most people in their 30's or 40's take a fairly significant pay decrease when they join the police. Personally it cost me 20K when I joined up.

+1

What he said...

[oldrider]

I have plenty of faith in our Police force but some of the lawyers and judges that are supposed to be part of our "justice" system leave me cold.

Some of our Lawyers and judges are the biggest part of the crime problems in New Zealand. (IMHO)

If they (The lawyers and judges to whom I refer) could clean their act up the Police force would be a much more attractive proposition for recruitment.

Have the Police blown it? Generally, NO! John.

PS: Did the Rabbit Boards ever reduce the number of rabbits? Silly question really! :rolleyes:

[MSTRS]

The minimum wage has just gone up to $12.00 per hour. 12 multiplied by 40 (hours) multiplied by 52 (weeks per year) equals $24,960 per annum salary / wage.


Most people on that $12/hr do not work 40 hours/week. The 'test' for full time employment is based on 30 hours/week, but many people do less than that.
The average wage/salary in NZ is somewhere about <$35,000

[Skyryder]

There's the first fallacy in your argument.

What's the second?

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

Are you trying to be the new Hitcher or something? Your grasp of the English language seems to be a strained relationship most of the time so don't poke sticks at others.

Sentence
Grammar
English


Nothing wrong with my 'syntax.' My spelling is suspect just can't be bothered to correct it.

skyyrder

[Ixion]

There are those of course who would say that the police "blew it" in 1951, and have never recoevered the trust of the working man. If they ever had it, since others would say they "blew it" with Massey's Cossacks in 1913.

The police are there now just as they always have been, to look after the rich. If they can do so without actively attacking the poor it's the best that can be hoped for.

[spudchucka]

The police are there now just as they always have been, to look after the rich. If they can do so without actively attacking the poor it's the best that can be hoped for.

Good grief. Would you like me to bring over a noose so you can end it all now?

[Toaster]

+1

http://www.police.govt.nz/recruiting/role.training.html

Salary details

Upon graduation you will earn a salary of $45,271 per annum and be entitled to a total package of $50,714 per annum.

While training at Police College you are paid $34,758 per annum.

Yep... and it goes up a poultry $1,300 per year (apporximately) - well under the inflation rate.

[Toaster]

Good grief. Would you like me to bring over a noose so you can end it all now?

I am happy to supply rope.

[Toaster]

I'd normally contribute to this kind of thread in a passionate manner but I lost faith in The Herald long before thinking about losing faith in the Police.

Very well said. It is a shame most others don't see the media as you do and just take what they read (if they can if fact read) and hear as gospel.

[spudchucka]

Most people on that $12/hr do not work 40 hours/week. The 'test' for full time employment is based on 30 hours/week, but many people do less than that.
The average wage/salary in NZ is somewhere about <$35,000

No argument but as I pointed out if you want to compare things fairly, have a look at the average wage of the demographic of the most desirable recruits.

[Big Dave]

As the Inspector passed me the BBQ'd slab of Crayfish he had hauled out of the Bay of Plenty that afternoon, and the sun glistened off his pool and courtyards, I said 'Mighty fine town you're runnin' here Sherrif.'

I did suffer a momentary lapse of confidence when he offered a Steinlager, but full trust was restored with a 'Heinlager' correction.

[Skyryder]

I am happy to supply rope.

Yu guys gotta stop horsin' aound. It might bolt at an awkward moment.


Skyryder

[Littleman]

There are those of course who would say that the police "blew it" in 1951, and have never recoevered the trust of the working man. If they ever had it, since others would say they "blew it" with Massey's Cossacks in 1913.

The police are there now just as they always have been, to look after the rich. If they can do so without actively attacking the poor it's the best that can be hoped for.

One day Les, one day you'll get over the merger buddy. One day.

[rudolph]

I take it most of the people here have never actually had to call the police, Never been lying in the gutter bloody and bashed and then get told by the cops they are to busy to come. or get made a murder suspect and get fucked over looking for drugs and weapons and when they don't find anything try to pull some other stunt.



:Police:

[Conquiztador]

The minimum wage has just gone up to $12.00 per hour. 12 multiplied by 40 (hours) multiplied by 52 (weeks per year) equals $24,960 per annum salary / wage.

I'd hardly think that anyone of average intelligence would attempt to pass off the minimum wage as being the national average wage, the current government excluded of course.

The better method of determining whether the police starting salary is a fair salary to start on would be to look at the average wage of the demographic that they are trying to recruit taking into consideration, age, education, experience etc etc. Most people in their 30's or 40's take a fairly significant pay decrease when they join the police. Personally it cost me 20K when I joined up.

The minimum wage is in NZ $11.25. The $12.00/h is only a suggestion.

Here:

"Minimum wage announcement soon
7:00AM Tuesday December 18, 2007

The Government is to make an announcement this week on the minimum wage which could see it rise to $12 an hour.

The Government's goal is for the adult minimum to reach $12 an hour by the end of next year depending on economic conditions.

Last December, the Government announced the minimum wage would rise to $11.25 - from April this year - and at the time the Council of Trade Unions said it expected the next increase to bring it up to $12 an hour.


Not all work 40h/week. Many in NZ work part time, therefore the average will be lower. 2006 average wage in NZ was calculated as $610/week.

[scumdog]

Most people on that $12/hr do not work 40 hours/week. The 'test' for full time employment is based on 30 hours/week, but many people do less than that.
The average wage/salary in NZ is somewhere about <$35,000

Ah well, first night on after the Great Stagin Post Rally.

Three attempts/threats of attempts of suicide to deal with - one the result of a successful attempt, only one hour late home tonight.(And our overtime rates are so up there too!)

Man I earn my money easy eh!

[spudchucka]

September this year - Enzo.


Police dog Enzo's killer convicted.
http://stuff.co.nz/4330031a11.html

Shame it only carries a two year jail term.

[Toaster]

Yu guys gotta stop horsin' aound. It might bolt at an awkward moment.


Skyryder

mmmm horse.... my favourite steak. :gob:

[scumdog]

A quieter night tonight
Only one fight, one crash, one assault, one brawl, one suicide threat and one arrest (should have been 4-5 more)....and started on a couple of crash files and a burglary one.

[spudchucka]

Shit man I thought it was pretty peaceful and happy down south, you're not working in Gore again are ya?

[Pixie]

I've lost faith in the Police management,their ministry bosses and their pitiful training.But it was so long ago that I can't remember when it was.

[Patrick]

After having to wait four hours for the police to turn up to a 111 call, when there was a violent person outside trying to break into a friends house hours after he had been released from prison, I have lost faith in the police.
I am not anti-police, I just understand that they are understaffed, underfunded and mismanaged to the point where they have become useless. I believe that most police officers are worthy of respect, but that the force as a whole is a farce. Even when the police do manage to get a criminal into court, the justice system is so toothless that they must be left wondering why they bothered.

It took him 4 hours to try and get in? Determined bugger...

Or he gave up and left while the call was made?

BIG difference there....

Yep, the courts disappoint at times... But hey, the losers keep coming and give me something to do...