Need your opinion. (religious debate)

[Fub@r]

Do I break this guys bones or let it slide for now?


Ok heres the situation:

I have an ex from many years ago and I have a young son who is nearly 10. A few months after I left my ex she hooked up with this guy thats nearly 15 yrs her senior, don't have a problem with that either. She has since had two kids to this guy as well and is supposedly going to get married next year after 7 yrs together.

This guy is shit scared of me even though I have never threatened him etc I can only assume my ex is spinning the usual crap so we don't ever talk and he finds out what a liar she is. Anyway moving on.

Picked my son up for the xmas holidays and out of the blue he starts going on about how Jesus died for us etc etc, and it didn't sound like a 10 yr old sentence but more like something that has been drummed in to him. So I ask him who had told him this. He tells me its his mothers boyfriend. My son then also tells me that according to him dinosaurs never existed and the bones they find are fake etc. This is confusing him as I've taught him about dinosaurs etc

Since hearing this I have been stewing as I want to go around there and take this guys head off, at least then he would have an excuse to be scared of me.

What would you do if this happened to your son?

[onearmedbandit]

Give him my opinion of things, tell him different people have different beliefs, and that he is at the age where he can make his own mind up about his beliefs.

Why would you want to take his head off over it?

[Fub@r]

Why would you want to take his head off over it?

Someone trying to influence my son when I'm not around really grates me. If he wants to do that to his kids so be it, but what gives him the right to push it on my son?

[skelstar]

Maybe your son was listening and it wasn't pushed? Whatever you think what does it teach your son by taking another mans head off?

Best thing you can do is act resonable/rational/responsibly. Be a good example for him, not an idiot...

[200BUSA]

I have been in the same situation with my daughter,You have to let it slide they make there own mind up the older they get.If you go blowing your stack then that will get your ex's back up and cut off visitation.It happened to me when i was going to deck my ex's new hubby(the bloody religious freak).Gut wrenching as it is -take a chill pill and let your son know the facts and he will decide.They dont like religous crap shoved down there throat.

[crashe]

Give him my opinion of things, tell him different people have different beliefs, and that he is at the age where he can make his own mind up about his beliefs.

I agree.........


Best thing you can do is act resonable/rational/responsibly. Be a good example for him, not an idiot...

I agree........


Heck they even teach them about dinosaurs at school.....
I also think some schools do go a little bit into the religious side of things of christmas as well.


Someone trying to influence my son when I'm not around really grates me. If he wants to do that to his kids so be it, but what gives him the right to push it on my son?

Teachers and all adults influence kids over all sorts of things..... to help teach them right from wrong, teach them education. etc etc.

Unfortunately for you..... this dude sees your son alot more than you do....
so he may think that he is doing it right....

If possible, how about a nice sit down chat with his mum and the b/f to discuss calmly and rationally about what and how you want things discussed with your son.

[Fub@r]

Maybe your son was listening and it wasn't pushed? Whatever you think what does it teach your son by taking another mans head off?

Best thing you can do is act resonable/rational/responsibly. Be a good example for him, not an idiot...

Don't worry I wouldn't do it literally, just need to get it off my chest.

I went to a methodist boarding school for 7 years, we were taught religion and I decided science was the answer to me. The difference here though is my parents decided to send me there knowing the curriculum, I don't knowingly send my son to my ex's BF for religious teachings



Unfortunately for you..... this dude sees your son alot more than you do....
so he may think that he is doing it right....


Luckily because my ex is more interested in child support money more than my son he spends half the time in her custody with his grandmother, so in effect I have the same amount of time with my son as my ex. But that is another rant I have given up on due to the fucked up IRD and Family Court systems

[skelstar]

I suppose you should also consider that this is about your son and not you. Sounds harsh but if the guy is talking to him about religon, it can be a positive thing despite it not being your thing. Maybe I'm not making sense.

What does your real life friends say? The ones that know you and your situation?

[Fub@r]

For me its not so much whether religion is right or wrong even though my son has already mentioned (with a chuckle I might add) as to how this guy can believe that dinosaurs are fake. I suppose that is a plus side.

I don't raise my son to be anti-religion just as I wasn't expect someone to promote anti-science if you understand what I'm getting at.

I suppose my anger is coming down to an "external" person undermining me and how I choose to raise my son.

I know this will sound like the typical ex-dad rant but my ex is only concerned about where the money is not her kids. For example she wanted to take my son to Bali for a holiday straight after the Bali bombings because she wasn't paying for it!

Me having a word to her about this will be a waste of time as there is nothing between the ears to capture my words :)

[Fub@r]

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ed848b3ec66c2d0afd56

maybe this vid clarifies it :)

[PrincessBandit]

Sorry to hear about this situation for you. It sounds so awfully frustrating that you seem to have so little hands-on control over it. A lot will depend on your son and his developing "world-sense" - some 10 year olds are completely trusting of anything they're told, others are a bit more savvy. Try not to make anything you say to your son into a personal attack on the b/f as, even if he talks total shite, if your son likes him then it will automatically have him defensive. I agree pretty much with onearmedbandit - try the cool, calm, everyone-has-their-own-beliefs- thing, encouraging him at this young age to question and think things through for himself.

[Conquiztador]

I'm single dad with 4 kids. One of them (10 yo) has taken a liking to Christianity. I am atheist. He will tell me re God and Jesus, how they created all. I tell him that I am OK with him beliving in God, but I do not belive he exsist. I also tell him that there is many different religions in the world. And that they all have one thing in common: They try to tell you that it is the only one. I have also told him re things religions have caused (and still do). But I make one thing clear: Whatever he chooses has no bearings on my love for him, and whatever religion (or not) he decides is for him should also allow the same for him.

It is not what you believe in that you are measured against, but what you do.

[HDTboy]

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[ynot slow]

Goes to prove that religion is the cause of all wars,you were going to rip his head off(war),this is p/t.

As a kid you look to teachers and adults for guidence,you tend to believe what the teachers say is gospel,I mean they are allways correct(tui moment).

Then the parent has to explain that is not quite correct and the kid gets another angle on it.

Hell my dad is 65 and I still wouldn't know who he votes for,so in our house politics wasn't an issue,but the secondary teacher I had was adament national caused this or that,labor was doing this for us scenario(in the late 70's),so sitting school cert was fun at time with stupid ravings given by teachers pushing their own ideals on us.

Best advice with split families is to let them have all the facts and they can make up their minds,the only good thing with dis jointed family life is the differing aspects of a subject arising,and this must be good for the childs learning,getting more than one perspective,even though we may not agree.

[Steam]

Tell your kid to say one single word... "Why?"

The religious types will soon run out of answers and resort to "Because of God", which is very unsatisfactory for a kid.
We got told not to ask questions at Sunday School.

[Badger8]

For me its not so much whether religion is right or wrong even though my son has already mentioned (with a chuckle I might add) as to how this guy can believe that dinosaurs are fake. I suppose that is a plus side.

I don't raise my son to be anti-religion just as I wasn't expect someone to promote anti-science if you understand what I'm getting at.

I suppose my anger is coming down to an "external" person undermining me and how I choose to raise my son.

I know this will sound like the typical ex-dad rant but my ex is only concerned about where the money is not her kids. For example she wanted to take my son to Bali for a holiday straight after the Bali bombings because she wasn't paying for it!

Me having a word to her about this will be a waste of time as there is nothing between the ears to capture my words :)

Well, he thinks dinosaurs are fake... there's not really much more to be said...
Sounds like the best thing could be to calmly sit him down and ask this guy not to tell your son these things. Coming from someone who intimidates people without meaning to (oh the joys of being 6 foot 2 and built like a brick shithouse), it can work in your favour. nothing makes someone mess their pants like the person they are worried is going to knock them one sitting them down and clearly and calmly asking them not to do something.

And dont worry, you're not the only one who gets pissed off by these guys. I happen to be Christian myself, but these fundamentalists (for lack of a better word, not trying to start anything here...) really piss me off. they have such a closed mindset, can only spout what has been drummed into them since birth, and have no real understanding of what they are talking about.

And it sounds like your son is seeing that he's not all there upstairs if he was chuckling as he told you about the dinosaurs. Here's hoping it all turns out for the best for your son, and for you too mate.

[McJim]

This guy is shit scared of me

I read this yesterday and have only now managed to stop laughing long enough to post here. :rofl:

On the serious side though, your son sounds fairly clued up so I think you'll get away with telling him something like "The creationists have unfortunately been a bit brainwashed - there's probably the head of their church making a lot of money out of it. I think it's best you don't believe stuff with no basis in fact." And stop short of the "I think they're a bunch of twats." phrase that I personally would have chosen.

[Bren]

What do I say to this as a Christian (albeit not a very good one, but that is irrelevant)? First of all your son should be given the options, then choose the path he wishes to lead. If he is being "forced" to go to church I would not agree with it, but if he is going to church out of his own will then so be it. It would surely do him no harm.
If your son is being forced to go I would consider giving your ex an option of you taking him somewhere else on sundays as quality time between you and your son.
Every question comes down to the existence question in the end...for example what or who set off the "big bang". I dont want to get into a debate here...
Anyway best you can do is just keep an eye on the situations, and please dont make any rash decisions....

[YellowDog]

Hi mate. I think I am quite well qualified to talk about this, as I have had a similar experience with my 3 kids. If your ex is devious and manipulative, all you can really do is to be the nice guy. Let your son work things out for himself. Of course it will be frustrating, but just so long as you make the time you have with your son 'High Quality' time and don't raise any contentious issues (like I did) you will be fine. If your son asks you direct questions, just give him nice soft answers. "Son, I am not sure of the answer to that one, why don't we find the answer together". A day out to the museum is another contact day sorted!

Don't try and fight, as I can guarantee you will lose! A religious childhood is a good childhood. When he gets older and a mind of his own, hios views will change. The Christian groundiung however is a good one, so don't be so worried. BUT dinosaurs did exist and the proof is all around us. I hope the religious teachings he is being introduced to are not too primitive and that the dinosaurs are actually the religious folk!

Good luck to you. It is very very tough and you need to take into account that your ex is likely not to want to make it easy for you.

[NotaGoth]

Teach him that EVERYONE has their own beliefs.... Let your son find his feet from there....




I completely agree with onearmedbandit on this one....

[Eva]

Teach him that EVERYONE has their own beliefs.... Let your son find his feet from there....


Wouldn't it be better to let him find his feet once he's old enough to make informed decisions?

A child is a child. Not a small adult.

[HDTboy]

Does the boyfriend run his vehicles on something other than dinosaur juice?

[Storm]

I'd have to echo OneArmed Bandit on this- let him make up his own mind. If its his choice, then fine and dandy. However if he is getting forced into it, then you might have reason for some quiet, yet firm words with his mum and partner.

Whatever you do, dont go off your rocker. This is Aunty Helens NZ now, and as a male concerned for his kids, you will get f^%$king nobbled if you cause a scene, and it will all be your fault(no matter whose fault it actually is)

Best of luck

[NotaGoth]

Wouldn't it be better to let him find his feet once he's old enough to make informed decisions?


Well duh thats the whole point isn't it?

But at this stage in his life there is NOTHING wrong with discussing different beliefs with him, and letting him know that its okay to believe in what he "wants" to believe in now is there?

P.S there is a huge difference between discussing different beliefs with him, and trying to force your beliefs on him.

[RantyDave]

Picked my son up for the xmas holidays and out of the blue he starts going on about how Jesus died for us etc etc, and it didn't sound like a 10 yr old sentence but more like something that has been drummed in to him. So I ask him who had told him this. He tells me its his mothers boyfriend. My son then also tells me that according to him dinosaurs never existed and the bones they find are fake etc. This is confusing him as I've taught him about dinosaurs etc
I would not stop shouting at him (boyfriend, not son) for about a year. For some reason the fundys seem to think it's cool to do this to kids. However spending hours telling kids about the truth of our one true lord Satan, is frowned upon. I know not why this is.

So, I wouldn't break his legs, but I'd make it entirely fucking apparent that he is not to pull this shit again. I'd encourage your son to find it funny that people believe this, because it is funny, and tell him about the flying spaghetti monster - http://www.venganza.org/

Dave

[Fatjim]

Mate your a religious bigot in the highest order. Get a grip.

[Hitcher]

Join the atheists: a non-prophet organisation.

[Fub@r]

I read this yesterday and have only now managed to stop laughing long enough to post here. :rofl:


You mean you finally defrosted in the deep south to be able to type :)


Join the atheists: a non-prophet organisation.

If you go over to www.godtube.com they would tell you there is no such thing as an atheist, anyone that doesn't believe in god is an agnostic. Can't be bothered trying to explain their logic to this.

If you guys have some time to waste and want a laugh have a look at Godtube

[YellowDog]

I kinda agree with this!

Most Atheists I know appear to be more overtly passionate about their atheism than people with religious beliefs (as demonstrated above).

Most Atheists I know, live with a Christian culture and values and complain if others do not share the same. I believe their claim to be atheists comes from the fact that they get peed off by the ‘Over the Top’ behaviour by some of the overtly religious individuals in society.

When I was in the UK, there was an email campaign prior to the 5 yearly national census to make 'Jedi' (as in Star Wars) an official religion. And low and behold, enough people put it on their form (including me) to make it an official UK religion. May be the same should be done for the Atheists to make them Happy Bunnies too?

You can take this all too seriously though!

[James Deuce]

Ignoring all the posts that missed the point, if you are in a shared parenting situation you need to be discussing things like this with your ex and her partner in a mature and open fashion.

It is unacceptable for one parent to decide to head down any path of indoctrination, whether it be religious, capitalist, communist, or hippy-ist.

The ex and her partner have to respect your wishes if you don't want him attending Sunday School, though I can't see the harm in that.

Time for frank, open discussion, mediated if you don't think they'll handle it. That way you get your view across without a jail sentence (the-head-taking-off thing).

[imdying]

Give him my opinion of things, tell him different people have different beliefs, and that he is at the age where he can make his own mind up about his beliefs.

Why would you want to take his head off over it?Couldn't have said it better myself...

Give your son some credit, he has a life time to work out what his personal beliefs are as he grows up... one assumes that you want him to develop the powers of reasoning.

One also assumes that you don't want him to think that thumping the other guy is the best way to get what you're after.


For all you know, the other guy is correct, and is giving your son a chance to be saved... ain't no better Christmas present than that many would say.

:shrugs:



Someone trying to influence my son when I'm not around really grates me. If he wants to do that to his kids so be it, but what gives him the right to push it on my son?You would be better off smashing TVs and computers then, much bigger influence IMHO.

[YellowDog]

No offence Jim mate, but I think you have a lot to learn about the cruel world of divorce.

Sure not all divorces end in parents attepting to destroy the ex's character; sadly however a lot of them do and this is a very tricky subject to tackle.

By the way, your comment is absolutely spot on with what should actually happen. All too often it is not an option or possible. A bit of mutual respect for each other and consideration for the best interests of the kid(s) is what is required.

[Steam]

Most Atheists I know appear to be more overtly passionate about their atheism than people with religious beliefs

Riiight... as shown by the millions, yes MILLIONS of people killed by Christians in the crusades? For explicitly religious reasons.

[James Deuce]

No offence Jim mate, but I think you have a lot to learn about the cruel world of divorce.

Sure not all divorces end in parents attepting to destroy the ex's character; sadly however a lot of them do and this is a very tricky subject to tackle.

By the way, your comment is absolutely spot on with what should actually happen. All too often it is not an option or possible. A bit of mutual respect for each other and consideration for the best interests of the kid(s) is what is required.

I hear what you are saying but until this is tried, even if it fails, there is no point "talking" to us. Always aim for the high ground and then you can walk away knowing you did your best, especially when kids are involved.

No offense taken.

[Fub@r]

One also assumes that you don't want him to think that thumping the other guy is the best way to get what you're after.



And I wouldn't. The "taking his head off" comment was to illustrate my anger. I wouldn't do this as it would only jeapordise my access to my son, and no one would "win" in that situation.

My argument is that this (according to my son) is being done without the knowledge of my ex and for that matter mine until now.

If my ex went to a church she would be burned as a witch :innocent:

Other thing is I don't go to friends houses and teach their kids to be aethiests, why is it ok when religion is being pushed?

[James Deuce]

Other thing is I don't go to friends houses and teach their kids to be aethiests, why is it ok when religion is being pushed?

Dead right, but you need to have that out with the ex and her partner ASAP, before it turns into a festering pile of poo and becomes a block to access of your son.

[Fub@r]

Dead right, but you need to have that out with the ex and her partner ASAP, before it turns into a festering pile of poo and becomes a block to access of your son.

I will mention it to her at some stage, my son is with me for the next 4 weeks so won't rush to it as yet incase I say something rash.

As for my initial post, over the last 8 years I have found when this shit happens with my son is better to get it off my chest in whatever medium then I approach the ex. My wifes sister is going through similar things (not religion based though) with her ex as we speak which is stressing her out. What I say to her is for example:

When you get a false court statement etc, repond to it how you would if you were face to face with them and get it all out say in a letter. Then walk away from it and come back to it later and be more diplomatic etc. Has always worked for me.

Its what I'm doing here, getting it off my chest and getting some feedback before I approach the ex.

[oldrider]

Tell your kid to say one single word... "Why?"

"Why" is my favourite word, it can not be fulfilled unless "you" the one who asks, decrees it so. Why?

I nearly drove my teachers at school mad with it, why? ask yourself!

Why, why, why, why, why, it is the perpetual question, why? :confused:

I got a lot of hidings :spanking: but they were really worth it! Why? Power! :headbang: John.

[Edbear]

I sympathise with you, as it is a nightmare situation to be in, both for yourself and your son. I see so much tragedy in these issues, especially where there is discord between the parties.

Without making an issue of religion, something well discussed in the Scottish thread, my view is that you should encourage your son to always find the truth for himself. To question what he is told, both by his parents/guardians or those in authority, eg. teachers.

Make the observation to him that there are many sincere people who have strong beliefs, but sincerity, even zealousness, does not mean accuracy. I see strongly expressed opinions on both sides here, and it is readily apparent that some with the strongest views have not done the personal study with an open mind to find the actual facts. That is true for both sides, by the way.

I always encouraged my own children to find things out for themselves, and I tell others not to accept what may be said just because it is said with conviction or seeming authority. Your son may be polite, even respectful of this man, but can tactfully assert that he will listen with the view to doing his own study in order to find the truth for himself.

[98tls]

Tricky suituation you have there mate,having been a young fella when my parents seperated and then having a step-father i tend to think that as far as influencing your young fella you have an advantage as he probably worships the ground his dad walks on as i did mine,if me i would be having a word with the exs partner and ask him to explain the comments he made to your son,nothing staunch,just ask him to explain and go from there.Good luck with it eh.The fact your asking for opinions about it is a :niceone:from me,good on you.

[YellowDog]

Shoot for the sky and you may hit the ceiling.

Yes Jim. Point accepted. My comments were based upon my own personal experience and the ex in question may not be such an ogre.

[YellowDog]

Riiight... as shown by the millions, yes MILLIONS of people killed by Christians in the crusades? For explicitly religious reasons.
I checked the Herald and also Sky News. No crusade related murders reported. May be it'll be in tomorrow's paper?

See what I mean about obsessive Atheists!

[Fub@r]

Mate your a religious bigot in the highest order. Get a grip.

Who are you calling a religious bigot?

[Toaster]

Sounds like the no bones thing is a bit weird. We all know they existed - the issue is WHEN they existed.

The existence of dinosaurs is easily supported in the bible. It just takes study and effort to understand it - it context - its messages etc etc.

The bible and science go together more than people realise until you really get into it and STUDY it rather than make up uninformed opinions.

Shame the idiot is putting such a stupid notion into yous son's head about the bones. Just stupid and weak.

[Toaster]

But I make one thing clear: Whatever he chooses has no bearings on my love for him, and whatever religion (or not) he decides is for him should also allow the same for him.

Really well said from the mouth of an obviously loving father. Nice one.

[Toaster]

Why is it so many judge God on the basis of many a foolish man's poor choices and perversions of "faith"? Just becasue we are a bunch of idiots, doesn't mean to say God is. It's our fault the world is the way it is - we can only blame ourselves and those before us. We made our choices.

[Fub@r]

Really well said from the mouth of an obviously loving father. Nice one.

But then a father trying to protect their son whether right or wrong is not a loving father?

[Dave-]

tell your son the truth.

the truth is that he can believe what he likes, that's his choice, but what he believes may not be the truth.

fubs I've e-known you for a few years now, you can trust me....:D

[Toaster]

But then a father trying to protect their son whether right or wrong is not a loving father?

My comment was in relation to con's post about his kids. It was not made in reference to your situation. Very frustrating for you indeed - I hope it gets better.

[Fub@r]

tell your son the truth.

the truth is that he can believe what he likes, that's his choice, but what he believes may not be the truth.

fubs I've e-known you for a few years now, you can trust me....:D


That is true he can believe what he likes and that is his choice, but when someone has a greater oppourtunity to influence him over the other then is he getting a balanced argument?

Please don't remind me of the years Bounty :)


My comment was in relation to con's post about his kids. It was not made in reference to your situation. Very frustrating for you indeed - I hope it gets better.


Sorry for the misunderstanding

[imdying]

That is true he can believe what he likes and that is his choice, but when someone has a greater oppourtunity to influence him over the other then is he getting a balanced argument?You pinned that possibility on him when you got a divorce. Too late for regrets, just love him as you would if hadn't have followed that path and you'll both be fine :yes:

[Sanx]

A religious childhood is a good childhood. When he gets older and a mind of his own, hios views will change. The Christian groundiung however is a good one, so don't be so worried.

No, a religious childhood is never good. Children, on the whole, are crying out for information and learning. The Jesuits used to (and may still do, for all I know) claim "Give me a child for for his first seven years and I'll give you the man". They knew, as most religions do, that if you brainwash kids enough when they're young and impressionable, most will never fully unlearn the things they've been told. No child has the mental capacity to understand the over-reaching concepts of faith or deism. To force this stuff on children is bordering on child abuse. Check out chapter 16 of God is not great, by Christopher Hitchens or Chapter 9 of The God Delusion by Richard Hawkins for more information.


I'd encourage your son to find it funny that people believe this, because it is funny, and tell him about the flying spaghetti monster - http://www.venganza.org/

Oh yes ... full pirate regalia to be worn at all times.


For all you know, the other guy is correct, and is giving your son a chance to be saved... ain't no better Christmas present than that many would say.

According to Christian belief, salvation comes with faith, no matter at what point a person finds that faith. This being so, surely it would be better and fairer to the child in question to allow him to form his opinion free of brainwashing and indoctrination and when he has sufficient mental capacity to do so- i.e. when he's an adult?


Other thing is I don't go to friends houses and teach their kids to be aethiests, why is it ok when religion is being pushed?

One of life's little mysteries, that one, along with how everyone has to be considerate about offending the religious, but no-one gives a flying fuck about offending those who actively believe there is no God.


The bible and science go together more than people realise until you really get into it and STUDY it rather than make up uninformed opinions.

Shame the idiot is putting such a stupid notion into yous son's head about the bones. Just stupid and weak.

Science and religion go together like deep-sea diving and basket-weaving. They are diametrically opposed to each other. Science is about reason, logic and proof. Religion is about blind unquestioning faith in the inexplicable. Sure, there have been some attempts at mixing the two (the farce that is intelligent design, for instance - nothing more than a not-particularly-veiled attempt to have religion posing as pseudo science taught in schools), but history has shown that the usual role of religion in science is one of destruction. One has only to look at the repeated attempts of the Vatican to silence and discredit those who have proposed theories that disagrees with Catholic teaching.


Why is it so many judge God on the basis of many a foolish man's poor choices and perversions of "faith"? Just becasue we are a bunch of idiots, doesn't mean to say God is. It's our fault the world is the way it is - we can only blame ourselves and those before us. We made our choices.

Ignoring the obvious response to that question (as god is man's invention, what else do we have to go on?), it's rather obvious you haven't read or understand that book you obviously place so much faith in. Genesis 1:27 states "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them". This is backed up by Corinthians 11:7 - "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man".

If, therefore, we are a bunch of idiots, god is too. We are, after all, created in his image. Usually, the 'free will' argument is rolled out at this point by the religious, to which there's a pretty easy counter. If one accepts the Judeo-Christian interpretation of god as being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, god knows about what's going on and has the power to change anything he doesn't like. The fact, therefore, that he doesn't respond to or prevent the myriad of vile acts that are carried out in his name can only be down to one or more of a very limited number of reasons: 1) he doesn't care, 2) he can't respond, or 3) there is no god to respond.

The reason so many judge religion on the actions of its adherents is that there is absolutely sod all verifiable evidence to counter it.

[Storm]

If one accepts the Judeo-Christian interpretation of god as being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, god knows about what's going on and has the power to change anything he doesn't like. The fact, therefore, that he doesn't respond to or prevent the myriad of vile acts that are carried out in his name can only be down to one or more of a very limited number of reasons: 1) he doesn't care, 2) he can't respond, or 3) there is no god to respond.

The reason so many judge religion on the actions of its adherents is that there is absolutely sod all verifiable evidence to counter it.

Did your parents stop you from doing things that would hurt others-or did they let you make your own choices.

Everyone gets to think what they like, thats the beauty of it all

[Biggles41]

Well I'm gonna chuck my 2 cents worth at this particular subject, one that I like many have been searching for answers for for most of my life.

Our history goes back further than the 6000 odd years than the Bible tells us, we all know of the legend of Atlantis, and the lumerian races and post deluvian chaos, many legends do go way back in time, the Hopi indians, Mahabatra etc to numerous to mention.

There was many Historians believe to have been approximately 400 or so scriptures dating back past the bible, Constantine it is believed got rid of many to suit the religious governance of the day, the Vatican had something like 88 ancient manuscripts and tinkered with them for a time, and I believe the Arch Bishop of Canterbury wittled the manuscripts down some more to the 66 books that make up the official King James version that we have today again to suit the governance of the day.

One thing that amazes me is that simple things like for intance Harry Potter appeases to peoples emotions - is this good marketing? or is it something in our DNA memory that gets tickled by the thought of Dragons, Griffens and other Mythological creatures?

What about Giants? the Biblical Nephilim (research Anunnaki and Nephilim)that are starting to be unearthed today attached some pictures.

At this point it appears that the Bible was a really good way to control the Masses and when I was a child, coming from a non-religious family the Ministers from both Catholic and Protestant Churches used to come to school once a year for religous instruction, when I told one of these pontificating pillocks that I did not believe, they told me I was going to go to hell, for fucks sake I was only 8 at the time.

Fear of death, fear of God, fear of living that what in my opinion it was designed to do "ie CONTROL"

These days we have more modern means to do that "Television" and the "Subversive use of sacred symbols in the media" thats how they do it nowadays.

[Sanx]

Did your parents stop you from doing things that would hurt others-or did they let you make your own choices.

They did both, luckily. That's how one learns.


Everyone gets to think what they like, thats the beauty of it all

Yes, and everyone should be able to believe what they like. Which is all the more reason that religious nonsense shouldn't be rammed down the throats of those too young to comprehend the ramifications of what they're being brainwashed with.
Some religions (Catholicism and Islam, mainly) are guilty of some horrendous acts agaist children. I'm not talking about the tens of thousands of children raped by priests or the little boys pressured into becoming suicide bombers, I'm talking about priests using their authority to scare the living daylights out of small children. They first tell the child that hell is place of eternal suffering and pain; a place from which there is no escape or respite. (Hindu hell is a little different - sinners may be sentenced to a number of years in hell, depending on the magnitude of their sins.) The priest then goes on to tell the child that he is a sinner and will certainly go tl hell unless he - the child - repents his sins and lives a life according to Catholic dogma.
Mary McCarthy, in her book Memories of a Catholic Girlhood remembers her shock at learning from a Jesuit priest that her Protestant grandfather - her guardian and friend - was doomed to eternal punishment because he had been baptised the wrong way. Luckily, she was a precociously intelligent child and refused to let the matter drop until some higher authorities had been consulted and a loophole in the writings of Bishop Athanasius discovered, who held that heretics were only damned if the they rejected the 'true' church with full awareness of what they were doing. But what an agony to subject an 11 year-old girl to. And how many other children, less curious than Mary McCarthy, simply accepted this evil teaching without question?

[Kittyhawk]

Do I break this guys bones or let it slide for now?


Ok heres the situation:

I have an ex from many years ago and I have a young son who is nearly 10. A few months after I left my ex she hooked up with this guy thats nearly 15 yrs her senior, don't have a problem with that either. She has since had two kids to this guy as well and is supposedly going to get married next year after 7 yrs together.

This guy is shit scared of me even though I have never threatened him etc I can only assume my ex is spinning the usual crap so we don't ever talk and he finds out what a liar she is. Anyway moving on.

Picked my son up for the xmas holidays and out of the blue he starts going on about how Jesus died for us etc etc, and it didn't sound like a 10 yr old sentence but more like something that has been drummed in to him. So I ask him who had told him this. He tells me its his mothers boyfriend. My son then also tells me that according to him dinosaurs never existed and the bones they find are fake etc. This is confusing him as I've taught him about dinosaurs etc

Since hearing this I have been stewing as I want to go around there and take this guys head off, at least then he would have an excuse to be scared of me.

What would you do if this happened to your son?

There is only one god....and that is anyone who is in the biker species.

The right time, place, road, bike, headspace...that is god... saviour that moment....you are at total freedom on the road!!!

Yep bikes are a religion.

[Kittyhawk]

My comment was in relation to con's post about his kids. It was not made in reference to your situation. Very frustrating for you indeed - I hope it gets better.

I should never read while half asleep....all I saw from this post "very frustrating for you"

ok, so there is a 2nd religion.....SEX!!:devil2:

[Badger8]

From religion to bikes to sex in only two posts!
That's impressive Kitty, even for you :niceone: :bleh:

[Fub@r]

At this point it appears that the Bible was a really good way to control the Masses

Fear of death, fear of God, fear of living that what in my opinion it was designed to do "ie CONTROL"



I see religion as a way to control the masses and try to answer the age old question "what is the meaning of life"

Every civilization on every continent has some form of religion no matter how remote they were, all of which attempt to give purpose to life. Whether it be one or mulitple gods, religion tried to explain what they couldn't control like storms, floods and plauges.

For me I'm happy to think that there is nothing after, it doesn't concern me and doesn't affect my ability to strive and live. Some people can't live life without purpose so use religion to find purpose.

Then you get groups like City Impact, Destiny and some of the TV evangelists that don't seem to be short of a few $$$, they seem to take away peoples ability to think for themselves. Ask anyone that has lost friends and families to these groups, once they join they try to convert you, you resist and you never see them again.

[Hitcher]

Please keep this thread on topic. Any "religious" discussion will be miraculously transported to the "appropriate" (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3026) thread...

[Fub@r]

Please keep this thread on topic. Any "religious" discussion will be miraculously transported to the "appropriate" (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3026) thread...

"speechless"

[Sanx]

Please keep this thread on topic. Any "religious" discussion will be miraculously transported to the "appropriate" (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3026) thread...

The title of this thread is "Need your opinion. (religious debate)". It concerns a small child being force-fed religious nonsense by some religious moron. How can any religious discussion be classed as 'off-topic'?

[madandy]

I'd take the kid to a museum and look at some big ass bones all wired together to form a skeleton of one of them big reptiles!
The young man can make his own mind up about their existence! :laugh:
Thems real bonnafide calciferous bones mate ;)
I'd break the guys leg if it were me. That's your damned son not the god blokes kid. :oi-grr:

of course a jolly cup of tea and a wee chin wag would be the mature 'first' course of action. maybe you could slip the option of a broken femur into the discussion?

[rwh]

I'd take the kid to a museum and look at some big ass bones all wired together to form a skeleton of one of them big reptiles!


Um - I think you'd end up with a skeleton of a big ass, which isn't a reptile.

Richard

[Toaster]

That is true he can believe what he likes and that is his choice, but when someone has a greater oppourtunity to influence him over the other then is he getting a balanced argument?

Please don't remind me of the years Bounty :)




Sorry for the misunderstanding

Hey no worries mate. Easy to do on the internet.

[madandy]

Um - I think you'd end up with a skeleton of a big ass, which isn't a reptile.

Richard

Haha. You know what I mean. Big-ass bones...of a reptile/dinosaur/big-ass lizard.

Andy

[Conquiztador]

Please keep this thread on topic. Any "religious" discussion will be miraculously transported to the "appropriate" (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3026) thread...

Well said, but perhaps you should have read the posts in this thread before posting??

Or perhaps posted while sober...lol

[Hitcher]

I thought a "mark in the sand" was necessary. I could have gone back and retrospectively moved posts to the Scottish thread, and may still do so if the topic varies away from how best to impart one's values onto a child that does not live with one.

At least my post succeeded in attracting some bitter red rep from my fan club. Happy New Year!

[Pixie]

Tell the boy that if he becomes a god botherer everyone will think he is a fairy.

[Pixie]

Just becasue we are a bunch of idiots, doesn't mean to say God is.

I thought he was supposed to have made Man in his image?

[Pixie]

I'd take the kid to a museum and look at some big ass bones all wired together to form a skeleton of one of them big reptiles!


Would that be big ARSE bones of a reptile or big ASS bones wired to look like a reptile.
Do reptiles even have a true arse?

[RT527]

Tell your kid to say one single word... "Why?"

The religious types will soon run out of answers and resort to "Because of God", which is very unsatisfactory for a kid.
We got told not to ask questions at Sunday School.

The very reasons why religion every sunday for me is a turn off...My beliefs are just that Mine, I dont force on others and they sure as heck dont force them on me.

Fubar, Could I ask you to sit down with your child and ask him what he wants to believe, don't tell him your way is right and the ex`s new man is wrong....give him the power to choose.

Also if you are still stewing over the problems you are having with the ex`s man , ask yourself what the problem is ...and then ask yourself again ...But what Is the real problem.

And if its still there , then a conversation with him not the ex, (you should never tell someone else to stop doing something you don't like through others),
Would be the only way to go....do this on neutral ground, at a cafe...shopping mall...somewhere where you wont be tempted to knock his block off on account of witnesses....

Conversation and communication......Has to be a 2 way thing...if he starts yelling ,suggest to him that when hes calmed down , you will continue the conversation when he`s calm again , likewise don't go off half cocked and pre-judgemental.

These are just thoughts and opinions, take of these what you want , ignore them if you must.

Hope it all turns out best for Your boy.

Ps remember this is not about you or your ex and her man, it should be about your child`s wants and needs.

[RT527]

But then a father trying to protect their son whether right or wrong is not a loving father?

Your right there , protecting one you love whether its right or wrong very much shows a true parents love for their child.

[merv]

I thought a "mark in the sand" was necessary. I could have gone back and retrospectively moved posts to the Scottish thread, and may still do so if the topic varies away from how best to impart one's values onto a child that does not live with one.

At least my post succeeded in attracting some bitter red rep from my fan club. Happy New Year!

Mate its 2008, its time you mods all just relaxed and enjoyed the ride; us mere mortals just waffle on about all sorts of stuff, so why not just let it happen and friendships will blossom. You don't need no stinken red rep, let it flow and the green will follow.

Happy new Year.

As for the topic, what does the ex think - is she happy with the boy learning this stuff? If so this is not an easy situation to beat. Explain your side of it and if necessary let it go. He'll make up his own mind I am sure.

[Dave-]

<attached image>

ahh that's just a normal sized skeleton with normal sized people far in the background....it's the cheapest and oldest photographic and cinematic trick in the book...older than the bible itself

[Hitcher]

People were warned about conducting "religious debate" in this thread, which is why that "discussion" has now been relocated to an appropriate venue (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3026).