Need a new wagon- any recomendations

[TonyB]

Yes, sad but true- at some stage we must all spend precious bike money on silly things like cars for the family :cry:
As this is about the only place I can think of where I have access to the opinions of 1500+ people I thought I'd seek said opinions from you guys.

Basically, it has to be a wagon, it has to be fairly big, it has to have a 5 speed box- no autos allowed by decree of wife, it needs to have a bit of grunt, it must have a petrol engine, it must be a car (not a bloody great 4 wheel drive Landcruiser etc) and I'd like four wheel drive. I'm thinking Toyota Caldina, Nissan Stagea or Subaru Legacy- I like the look of the Mitsi's but I've heard and seen things that make me nervous about buying one. From what I've seen down here in Chch the there aren't many 5 speed Caldina's or Stagea's about, but there are plenty of 5 speed Legacy's. My concern with the Legacy's is fuel consumption- everyone seems to say they drink the gas. Of course the boy in me wants a nice Legacy GT twin turbo, and there happens to be a car yard down here that has been sold and has a few going cheap, plus a couple of 25T's.

SOOOoooo, does anyone here own a Legacy GT or any other kind? Any ideas how many k's you get to the litre?
Any recomendations on whats good to go for will be appreciated.
Cheers
Tony

[vifferman]

Yup, Legacys (Legacies?!?) drink gas, and they can also be very hard to insure (depending on model). Good car though...

[Quasievil]

4wd generally use 10% more fule than 2 wd, for obvious reasons, as well as they go through tryes quicker, and are generally higher maintenance by default.

I would look at a Legnum wagon or a Subaru 250t wagon, and it would take alot to talk me out of a subaru, you just cant beat them perfect car !!
thats my 2 cents worth

[Devil]

as well as they go through tryes quicker
I would be disagreeing with you there. My VR4 tyres are lasting plenty longer than my old 300ZX tyres. Then again... the VR4 spends a little less time sideways than the Z did ;)

Can you give us a price range? If you're going legacy the pre '96 models can be a little dodgy from what ive heard. Mitsi's 5 speed Invecs-II tiptronic is a great gearbox, I just wouldnt want one with lots of k's on it.

[vifferman]

I would look at a Legnum wagon or a Subaru 250t wagon, and it would take alot to talk me out of a subaru, you just cant beat them perfect car !!
thats my 2 cents worth"Legnum" sounds like a kind of vegetable. :crazy:
And Mitsubishis suck big time. And for those naysayers - next time you're following a smokey car on the road, most times it will be a Mitsubishi (or else a 323/Laser, 626/Telstar). Mitsubishis rings tend to let oil past as the kms get up, as do the valve guides on those other horrible cars I mentioned {shudder}.<SHUDDER>

[Quasievil]

I would be disagreeing with you there. My VR4 tyres are lasting plenty longer than my old 300ZX tyres. Then again... the VR4 spends a little less time sideways than the Z did ;)

Can you give us a price range? If you're going legacy the pre '96 models can be a little dodgy from what ive heard. Mitsi's 5 speed Invecs-II tiptronic is a great gearbox, I just wouldnt want one with lots of k's on it.
No problem disagreeing but I think you just "floored" your arguement by yourself

its a fact 4wd use more rubber as obviously you have power going through 4 wheels as opposed to two, hence on two wheel drive cars the driving wheels wear out quicker than the non driving wheels right ?
on your bike the rear trye wears out 2/1 over the front right.
Same concept with a 4wd

[Quasievil]

"Legnum" sounds like a kind of vegetable. :crazy:
And Mitsubishis suck big time. And for those naysayers - next time you're following a smokey car on the road, most times it will be a Mitsubishi (or else a 323/Laser, 626/Telstar). Mitsubishis rings tend to let oil past as the kms get up, as do the valve guides on those other horrible cars I mentioned {shudder}.<SHUDDER>Ive had 3 Mitsubishis as company cars over the years and have certainly noticed they leak a tiny amount of oil, but I wouldnt say they suck big time, I have done an average of 150,000 kms on each car with Nil issues. none blew smoke. Certainly the older ones may have but not the 1998 + years

[kerryg]

I would be disagreeing with you there. My VR4 tyres are lasting plenty longer than my old 300ZX tyres. Then again... the VR4 spends a little less time sideways than the Z did ;)

Can you give us a price range? If you're going legacy the pre '96 models can be a little dodgy from what ive heard. Mitsi's 5 speed Invecs-II tiptronic is a great gearbox, I just wouldnt want one with lots of k's on it.


I've got a 94 NZ-new Legacy (nothing fancy, no turbo or AWD etc ) with 150000kms on it and it has been a great car. Never let me down in the 100000kms I've done in it escept for when the battery crapped out. Uses no oil between changes. Decent to drive. Will probably still be going well in another 100000 the way its going. They are a bit hungry though, especially if you're heavy footed but I drive like the old geriatric I am so its not much of an issue. Go for a Legacy and I reckon you'll be happy.

[Eddieb]

I've had 3 Legacy's, in fact I have 2 now, 1 for sale.

250T and 2 litre GT turbo will give about the same mileage, with the turbo giving far more smiles per mile. Have a look at clubsub.org.nz. Expected turbo economy is at least 450km off 60 litres, although some get up to 550km. Thats mostly around town usage. The 2 litre non turbo will obviously give a bit more, I used to get 500-550 off my older one and that had a 55 litre tank I think.

Apparently the primary turbo's on the twin turbo GT have a tendancy to give up aroung 150k, although mine is well past that and still running sweet with no funny noises. They all seem to have a big lurch between the primary and secondary turbo's kicking in.

I think they are great and have had a trouble free run out of all of mine, the newest one I have owned is a '94 GT.

[Devil]

No problem disagreeing but I think you just "floored" your arguement by yourself
Exzackamarely. Twas intended.

Buuuut, it does depend on how you drive. You've got the argument of all the power going into two wheels causing more wear, or you've got that wear spread over all four. Negligible if you drive like a nanna.

[vifferman]

I've got a 94 NZ-new Legacy (nothing fancy, no turbo or AWD etc ) with 150000kms on it and it has been a great car. Never let me down in the 100000kms I've done in it escept for when the battery crapped out. That's probably an important point. I've had four high-mileage Subarus, and apart from the last one which had some coolant issues (blown hoses --> overheated --> cracked head), I've had no problems with any of them. However, I know three friends who've had used Jap imports, and all three had problems. The least of these was only one problem - a circlip letting the transmission fluid out ($7K), and the others had problem after problem (alternator, cooling system, transmission, starters, etc etc.)

Tell me summat - if Jap imports are good, why is it that the first question a dealer will ask when you go to trade your car in is "Is this a Jap import?" ? And why will they give you less for one than for a NZ-new vehicle? :spudwhat:

[FROSTY]

Ok I sell these things for a living so I have a lot more contact than other guys.
The legacy to look at is the 250t about 1997.
Most have done about the 80k mark and unless they have been done will need the rocker cover gaskets done -its about a $300 job
otherwise you'll have oil on ya exhaust manifold and will think the engines goosed.
They are reliable and not too thirsty to be honest.
take it for a good drive and put her on full lock both ways at low speed. Check for rear diff binding --if its really bad could be an issue if mot theres an additive that fixes it.
another possibility for ya to concider is the ford telstar 2.5
its a rear wheel drive 2.5 with a bigger load space than anything else ya mentioned. -Its got a cam chain too

[TonyB]

Thanks for the tips so far guy's. Keep 'em coming, it's all useful. As for price range about 10-12K is about all we can manage.
The Telstar 2.5 could be an option, but I haven't seen one yet. The boss has a 92 626 with the 2.5 V6, great engine with heaps more grunt from idle to about 3500revs than the VT SS they had for a while (the BA XR8 is nearly as bad- the grunty Aussie V8 is a myth, those engines are peaky as hell, they made the right choice and got an XR6 Turbo which is heaps more drivable than the V8's......but I digress).
I like the idea of the Nissan Stagea- based on the Skyline which has a great engine. They are boxy though.

[marty]

the caldina 4wd turbo would be my pick - not the tiptronic one though. the stagea is just ugly. how about a maxima (cefiro) wagon? not many about, plenty of grunt, look good in white with tints/alloys. you'd be out of place in chch with anything but a subaru though.....but i did see this when i was surfing the other day:

http://www.autopoint.co.nz/DesktopDefault.aspx?UsedCarID=565085&TabID=5755&Alias=autopointNZ

[MOTOXXX]

IMO i would go for something like the Caldina or the legnum. Toyotas are realy reliable and not as risky as a vr4 legnum or legacy for getting pinched. They dont look as good but i have heard nothing but good things about them. Everyone i know who has had a suby has had problems with them - from the boy racer type of person to family type slow driver.

Also everyone has there own preferance on what feels right for them so test drive a few would be the way to go.

[manuboy]

about the "no auto" thing. Our honda just did it's clutch for the 3 and last time, so we picked up a Toyota Scepter with 130km on the clock for $5000.

Its the 3 litre (7 seats, two fold out) model which apparently has head gasket probs - which we had checked out. Other than that, it's slightly gutless but really farking nice to drive.

Has all the bits and bobs and is actually very good on gas. But thats just me -i'd never pay more than 6-7g's for a cage....if i can get something nice 'n reliable for less i will. My bosses both had Legacies, as did one mate, and they all spent more on the transmissions than i did on our wagon...they were 94 GT's tho...

[riffer]

Okay. I had a 1995 Legacy GT-B spec. 200kw, BBS alloys, 5-speed, Bilstein suspension, the works...

I'd have no hesitation saying it's the best car I've ever had.

Power is good, allowing for the afore-mentioned gap in grunt between 4 and 5000 rpms. This is caused because the first turbo works between 2000 and 4000, then the exhaust flow is transferred from the first turbo to second and it takes about a second or so to come on to boost so it feels like having two powerbands.

And accelerate it certainly does.

I had mine bouncing off the Jap speed cut-out before the end of the Terrace Tunnell in Welly taking off from the top of Vivian Street.

0-100 takes about 7 seconds - no fast for a bike, but for a car thats not bad. About a 15 second quarter-mile, so similar to a 350 chev powered manual Camaro or manual VK SS 5.0 Commodore (before they got so fat).

Handling is superb. Build quality very good.

I had mine from 78,000 kms until 145,000 kms, and only ever had ONE thing go wrong with it. However it was a biggie. The bearings in the gearbox layshaft went. This also happened in my R32 Skyline GTS-T so maybe it's my driving...

Something to watch out for in Legacys (apart from the obvious thieves):

they are VERY fussy about tyres. ALWAYS change all four at once. Having tyres of varying wear or even brands can result in varying cirumferences, which stresses out the diffs, and this tends to cause havoc with the gearbox.

As for fuel consumption, if you are going to drive like I do, don't expect great kilometeridge. The best I ever saw from 60 litres was about 495, the worst - about 250 kms so injudicious use of the accelerator will suck the gas.

Personally, I'd buy another one - if I had the money, but if I was buying new I'd probably go for an SS Commodore. However, I doubt I'd have the money to buy new... :pinch:

I've driven both the 250T and the GT-B and the GT-B is waaaaay faster.

However, for real-world driving and family use, unless you absolutely need to accelerate like a very fast 250cc motorcycle, go for the 250T. Another bonus is, it's heaps cheaper to insure and you still get that awesome handling.

[Motu]

As someone who has to work on these things for a living - you wouldn't get me anywhere near a Subaru.The most stone reliable and easy to work on car out there (that also holds it's value) is the V6 Commodore.These things run forever,and if they do break down are easy and cheap to fix.

Take any post 1990 car out there and I'll challange you to a water pump replacement race - after 20mins I'll be pulling my gloves on and ready to throw a leg over my bike....

[onearmedbandit]

Tony, I'm in car sales in ChCh dealing in the sort of vehicle you're looking for. PM me if you want to talk about some options, I have a couple in stock that may suit you (1997 Mitsi Legnum 2.5 V6 5spd 4wd, have a stagea 2.5 4wd but only in auto, in fact don't think they're available in 5sp, but its bright yellow). Anyway, if we don't have it, and we've about 250 cars on our list, I have access to all the local wholesalers so I can show you around them.

[wari]

THere's only one answear to this question mate ... :yeah:

ANd I got three wirds fir ya ...

CHrysler VAliant STation WAggon ... :yeah:

WHy loose $2,000 a yeah onna JApper whenya can innvest $2000 a yeah inna classic and have a car worth more in what ya startedd with ...

An'in 5 years you'll have a pearler rather thanna pusser ...

doit man ... yeah doit doit doit ... :spudbooge :spudguita :spudbooge .. doit

[Hitcher]

Dispense with the foreplay and go straight for the Mazda Clitoris "Exciting Version". I think you'll be pleasantly supplied how well the rubber lasts and how far you can go on a litre...

[TonyB]

Dispense with the foreplay and go straight for the Mazda Clitoris "Exciting Version". I think you'll be pleasantly supplied how well the rubber lasts and how far you can go on a litre...

T'would seem to me, Mr H, that you may have been sucking on more than your second beer before you wrote that. :whistle:
Thanks to all for the advice. I'll go and see Onearmedbandit tomorrow to see what's about.

[sels1]

I hear Legacys are the most stolen model, which means they are desirable to some people, but there can be insurance issues. I have heard of a few have big $ repairs too. Good car when they are running well.

For a practical family wagon you get good value from the Toyota range like Camery and Caldina. Fairly economical and very reliable. My last 4 vehicles were a Camery, 2 Coronas and a HiAce, they all had done well over 200k when I sold them with no repairs required - only tyres,oil and tune ups. They will rust before the motors give up.
Somebody else suggested Nissan Maxima/Cefiro - good cars also, They is a lot of reasonably priced import Cefiros around at the moment - check the car auctions.
We have had a few Mitsi's where I work - they went alright but started using oil very early in life. The other fleet vehicles were Toyotas which were definity lower maintenance and sturdier.

[Paul in NZ]

We have driven miles in wagons...

Our '93 Mitsi Magna has carried us 160,000 kn (210,000 all up) with little problem except it likes petrol.

Auto box has been good too...

Corners like a drunken hippo

Tyres are cheap.. Easy to service... HUGE load capacity.

Paul N

[FROSTY]

Tony I must say I agree with Motu
The commo is a bloody good big wagon ---and don't be scared of high miles either.
On a personal note I agree with you on the stagea -I bloody love em
2.5 6 cylinder skyline rear wheel drive
the 4wd version can be a tad thirsty and I must say like the skyline the cabin desighn is a rather um tight for a bigger family.
My reason for the telstar suggestion are
1)5 real seat belts -lap and diagonal
2) cam chain motor so no belt break worries.
3) good sized cabin space.-roomy around the seats.
4) biggest boot area in its class.
5) bloody nice to drive

[TonyB]

Tony I must say I agree with Motu
The commo is a bloody good big wagon ---and don't be scared of high miles either.
On a personal note I agree with you on the stagea -I bloody love em
2.5 6 cylinder skyline rear wheel drive
the 4wd version can be a tad thirsty and I must say like the skyline the cabin desighn is a rather um tight for a bigger family.
My reason for the telstar suggestion are
1)5 real seat belts -lap and diagonal
2) cam chain motor so no belt break worries.
3) good sized cabin space.-roomy around the seats.
4) biggest boot area in its class.
5) bloody nice to drive
I do like the sound of the Telstar- but so far I haven't seen a 2.5 V6 one. Even the 2.0 is fairly rare down here. The one with the most choice (by miles) is the Legacy. Will have a fossic around today and see whats about.

[Sniper]

I would look at a Legnum wagon or a Subaru 250t wagon, and it would take alot to talk me out of a subaru, you just cant beat them perfect car !!
thats my 2 cents worth

Im always dubious on Subaru's basically, the parts from them cost heaps. And if you dont look after them, hydrolic lifters quickly become and expensive problem.

Has anyone heard of the rather neat and tidy Nissan Avenier, that is the perfect 4wd wagon. Wonderful, really wonderful :love:

[Motu]

Telstar,Cronos,Eunos 500 etc are a money pit,I've got a couple of customers who wonder what the hell they did buying one,they can't stop spending money long enough to dump the things.They are prone to rear caliper failure and one has had 4 calipers,left rear is the most common and the dismantlers want $100 more for a left than right,we get them rebuilt now.The 2.5 V6 is dirty and noisy,but seems strong - we've had them in countless times overheating...water pumps,cracked top tanks,heater cores (remove the complete dash for that one,over 8hrs work) hoses,but have never pulled a head.Had one over heat so bad with a leaking water pump that it had no oil pressure,we pulled the sump and cleaned the baked on crap off the pick up and it ran sweet.

My 1993 Telstar wagon with 2 litre 12 valve has done 380,000 km,put rings in and new head on at 330,000 and the motor was like new inside,and I mean that - the pistons were still shiny.But don't buy one,the heads go soft and crack,then you have to buy a brand new cyl head.

I've never even so much as had a rocker cover off a commodore V6 - I've been working on one for the last 8 yrs that has NEVER had an oil change,it still has the same oil filter on as when I first saw it,if she would pay her bills I might get generous enough to change her oil,but while she is constantly in debt we only do enough to get her through a WoF.Treat your Legacy like that and see how far you get!

[sparrow_34]

I've got a NZ TX5 V6 2500 (mazda 626, mx6 engine, rebadged), 180000kms and have had the left rear caliper problem. Also I have just done the valve cover gaskets, very common problem on these motors. While I had the intake manifold off, I also did the front and rear engine mounts. They are a bit of a biatch to work on, but providing you keep on top of the small things the motors will keep on going.

[marty]

i had rear caliper problems on my TX5i - pulled it off, crc'd the fuck out of it, and put it back on. all that was happening was the handbrake shaft was binding. is that the problem you're talking about?

[FROSTY]

A couple of other possibilities are the honda accord wagon--2.2l
and as preveously mentioned the cefiro wagon
My personal favorite in the wagons is the nissan primera wagon.
Not the biggest by any means but I love that 2.0l chain drive motor.
and the motor is very little different from the origonal motor from 1990
-goes well and for a wagon actually handles.

[Motu]

A stainless shaft pivots in an alloy housing,the alloy 'grows and binds the handbrake shaft,overheating the pads.Ultimatly the caliper housing wears and the shaft jams.It's the left side because it gets more road grime,worse with mags too.

SR20 Tony? A good motor alright,one of my favorites - but very prone to sludge if they don't get regular oil changes,then they destroy camshafts.Take a look inside the oil filler cap,if it's black with sludge walk away,it's gotta be clean alloy or it's a problem child.The new motor I don't know about as we don't see them yet.

[James Deuce]

1981 Mazda 323. Indestructible and gutless. You'll never get a ticket, and it'll carry a coal range without complaint.

[Hooks]

Mate !! :sunny: ................ It's a shame you don't want auto :brick: .... I have had my crappy old (EA) falcon s/w (with a bench seat) for yonks ... approx 200,000k's ... and apart from redoing the radiator at 180,000 it has been as good as gold !! :niceone: Takes all the shit I throw at it and just keeps on going ..... the damn thing will out-live me I reckon !! :argh: It's just topping the 280,000 mark now and will be getting a new battery for xmas but other than the usual tyres as needed but not as often as you would think, it just won't give up .... cheap motoring as I only paid $3,500 for it !!! ... :done: :spudbooge

[TonyB]

Mate !! :sunny: ................ It's a shame you don't want auto :brick: .... I have had my crappy old (EA) falcon s/w (with a bench seat) for yonks ... approx 200,000k's ... and apart from redoing the radiator at 180,000 it has been as good as gold !! :niceone: Takes all the shit I throw at it and just keeps on going ..... the damn thing will out-live me I reckon !! :argh: It's just topping the 280,000 mark now and will be getting a new battery for xmas but other than the usual tyres as needed but not as often as you would think, it just won't give up .... cheap motoring as I only paid $3,500 for it !!! ... :done: :spudbooge

:niceone: Our current car is an 89 Bluebird wagon with the basic as 2.0 motor and 5 speed. Bought it as a stop gap for $3250 thinking if it lasted 1 year that was good, if it lasted 2 years bloody fantastic. Over 4 years later and she's still going 260,000 k's on the clock. Relaiable as the sunrise and with the good shocks the last owner put in, not a bad drive either. But it is using a bit of oil now, and I no longer have confidence in it to do a long trip with the kids. It will become my workbomb and prabably live forever!

[What?]

A bloke came into our place a couple of days ago in a Camry with a burnt-out clutch (his own silly fault...)
The towie, on arrival, looked stunned and said "Kin'ell - Camrys don't break down!".
Good enough for me.

[geoffm]

The "sensible choice" is a Toyota Camry wagon. Economical adn run forever. The 2.2l is reliable, but could do with more poke if you have a load and/ or towing. the 3l V6 costs a bit more to buy. The subarus handle better, at least with standard shocks.
I like Subarus, but they are best when young, esp if turbocharged. Hired one (2l non-turbo 4WD manual) for Easter around the West Coast from Christchurch. Went pretty well, and handled well. Pretty impressed, but some of the bills I have seen for them for repairs (esp WRXss etc) are eyewatering. Also it pays to ring your insurance co before you buy one and check out if they will cover it, and for how much. Lots of them get nicked
We did the research recently, as I was leaving my job and would no longer have the work car - Nissan Avenier 2l diesel wagon. In the end, they gave it to me as the golden hadnshake, as it was pretty old. I have spent $1k on it since (brake disks, new front shock, fixed oil leak from cam shaft), but still a cheap car. The mechanic said it was wrth hanging onto, and it has been dead reliable in the 5 years or so I had it at work. - 280,000km, and 50mpg of diesel
Friends bought a Honda Odyssey 4WD, and the love it. Worth a look if you have to cart kids around. Lots of space, and build on the Accord running gear. the 3l V6 has had transmission problems in the US, and are pretty dear as well. We will probably get an Ody to replace the Nissan in due course.
Geoff

[JohnBoy]

This is from my view:

Honda Accord: i think they are all Auto (the car is designed for the USA market)

Ceferios: can get them in manuel but hard to find, you have choices of motor from a 2l 6 cyl (aviod, gas guzzler) 2.5 6cyl and the 3.0 6cyl. pretty good but i was never a fan of the handling but if its family wagon you should be sweet.

Caldina: not to sure on motors but knowing toyota should be sweet. they do have the GT-T model, all turbo'd up with 4wd and all the gizmos. but they normally go for a larger price.

Subaru's: good solid car but try to buy one with either a service history, warrenty or with low k's. only fault in them as most they are expensive to maintain so some people dont do it (ie as i stated before, buy one with service history). only weak link is the Auto box (a good decision by yourself to avoid), they do use more gas than other cars and as stated by others in this forum they can be an issue to insure, age, history and where you live can infuence on how much you pay.

i am a bit bias when it come to cars, i reconmend a good solid falcon. can't go wrong. with these days of higher fuel prices you should be able to pick up a nice one for bugger all.

Happy hunting
:spudbooge

[Motu]

I shouldn't knock belt drive cams - with increased servicing intervals and more reliable cars...they are the golden goose,and cam belt jobs are our golden eggs.I hate to think what we'll do when they all go back to chain drives....

Most of the cars we are talking about here (cept the Commodore,but that's my pick,so you can ignore me) have a water pump driven by the cambelt -so when you do a cambelt you are a mug not to do the water pump,also the tensioners and idler bearings,cam,crank and oil pump seals if any...the Subaru has 4 tensioner bearings and an auto tensioner - we are talking serious money here,so make sure all this is done before you buy the car,accept no less,or set aside the money.

Or you could buy a Commodore V6 and save all these hassles.

And your clutch will wear out - it's what they are designed to do,they wear as part of their opperation.Subaru's are the most expensive clutch job out there,Hondas second.

[Skunk]

How about a 4wd 2.3 Honda Accord wagon with tiptronic? They're 98-03 models, not like the earier ones (2.2l)

Two wheel drive only until it needs the drive. Check the auto responds correctly as they learn over time.

Prefer the shape to the Cefiro. Headlights are brillant (Xenon discharge I think that's right). Lower the springs and 17" wheels.

I happen to have a 99 model one that could be for sale... ;)

[TonyB]

I know no matter what I do I'm going to go against somebody's advice, but I figure you've all tried to help by offering some advice, so here goes anyway. The kids make life difficult, so we've only test driven 2 cars so far. The options we wanted (Room, grunt, 5 speed and maybe 4WD) left us with a fairly limited choice.....so we took out a Legacy GT wagon. After driving that 4WD became a 'must-have'. The thing was easily taking corners at speeds that would have the old Bluebird spinning of into the bushes. Not necessarily what you need with kids, but then who hasn't accidentally gone in to a corner too hot on an unfamiliar road? The GT will have a better chance of getting around than most cars. Having recently driven the bosses Falcon BA XR6 Turbo on a wet night I can safely say the GT would kick it's butt on a wet windy road. Maybe even in the dry too. We both loved the taught "wired" feel- lots of feed back through the steering, and the ride was actually smoother than the Bluebird with it's overdamped Munro shocks. Overall we loved the car, but it was having some tuning issues, possibly due to having the wrong gas in the tank.
We then tried a Grandwagon so the wife could try an auto- "OOoo, it's like driving a gokart!" Didn't like the Grandwagon after the GT- mushy handling, steering feedback was almost non-existant, and the auto was reluctant to kickdown. Wife didn't like the two-tone paint either.

The wife didn't want to try the Stagea- "it's UGLY- I'd be embarrassed to drive it" she said.
So now we need to try a 250T (which only seem to come in auto), and Onearmedbandit is looking for a Legnum 5 speed 4WD 2.5V6 for us to try.

The cost of repairs on any of these cars makes me a bit nervous, so we will be getting a 3 year warrany with anything we buy. Hmmmm, maybe I should get a high k's GT, and thrash it so eveything breaks... then I have a nice newish car...

[Motu]

KISS - specialy with Subaru,the 250GT is pretty simple for a Sub,non turbo I hope.If you buy off a dealer,make sure HE does a cambelt job,check the bill and make sure all 4 tensioner bearings have been done and the water pump as well,if he won't agree to that have him take $1000 off the price and keep your thousand because you will need it.If your water pump or a tensioner bearing fails you are in for some big bucks - I can't stress enough that you need to get this job behind you,so you can have a happy life with your Subaru.

[TonyB]

Thanks Motu, I'll give it a go. Do you know much about the 2.5V6 in the Legnums? What about the Tiptronic Auto?

[riffer]

...so we took out a Legacy GT wagon. After driving that 4WD became a 'must-have'. The thing was easily taking corners at speeds that would have the old Bluebird spinning of into the bushes.

Watch out if you intend to thrash the Legacy GT wagon.

They are prone to some pretty wild liftoff oversteer at the very limit, like all four-wheel-drivers (and Porsches too).

It's pretty interesting the first time it happens. You have to be ready to dial in a bit of opposite lock, floor it and hold on.

Even more interesting when its on a secondary road, like say the Gentle Annie (from Napier to Wanganui). Yeeha!

[Motu]

The Tiptronic seems to be better than the early Mitsi boxes,but I was driving a 95 Diamante the other day with a totaly stuffed one,this is the time they start to fail - 10yrs everything goes to hell.

The 2.5 V6 is ok - but I can't understand why people want to go complicated,an OHC front drive V6 is horrendously difficult to work on,like remove the inlet manifold to check the spark plugs - helloooo! and then they complain about high repair bills and the gargre ripping them off,blah,blah,blah.

With 35 yrs of repairing cars - I like to work on cars that are simple to repair,as the owner of a gargre I don't like to give people huge bills that are only the size they are because the car was more complicated and expensive to repair than need be.Customers bleat about the high cost of repairs,I bleat about why did you buy such a stupid car in the first place.

[Devil]

If you're after a grunty wagon, you'll prefer the Legnum VR4 engine over the Sub's pooey turbo. Smoother, more torque, better midrange and no funny powerbands like the GT. (The turbos on the VR4 run in parallel, whereas the GT has sequential turbos. I've heard the primary turbos on the GT have a habit of pooing themselves).

On the other hand, I have a '97 VR4 Galant (sedan) for sale if you like ;)
only 67,000km on it. :D Tiptronic

[Blakamin]

Mate !! :sunny: ................ It's a shame you don't want auto :brick: .... I have had my crappy old (EA) falcon s/w (with a bench seat) for yonks ... approx 200,000k's ... and apart from redoing the radiator at 180,000 it has been as good as gold !! :niceone: Takes all the shit I throw at it and just keeps on going ..... the damn thing will out-live me I reckon !! :argh: It's just topping the 280,000 mark now and will be getting a new battery for xmas but other than the usual tyres as needed but not as often as you would think, it just won't give up .... cheap motoring as I only paid $3,500 for it !!! ... :done: :spudbooge
Built Ford Tough!!!!

[TonyB]

Have tried a few cars now. Autos have been ruled out as the wife hates them and I am a bit of a control freak when it comes to driving, if they could. We've tried Legacy Grandwagons, 250T B spec and standard, GT and GTB. And I had a go in a Mitsi Legnum 2.4 GDi yesterday. Does anyone here own one? Whats the engine noise like? The one I drove (99) rattled like a bloody diesel! The caryard claimed it was because it had 91 in it, and they need 96. BS or not? Loved the tiptronic though!

[FROSTY]

Tony --gimme a yell sometime --021544251 I import cars and Ive got one or two legacy 250t's in stock.-read that as we specialise in late model suby wagons--Like a 2003 legacy gt tiptronic yumeee
Re the 1800gdi --my opinion--bloody nice to drive --but totally gutless

[TonyB]

A 2003 anything is going to be a little outside my price range. Plus you're in Auckland. I reckon a GT tiptronic would be yummy indeed!
The Legnumwas a 2.4 GDi. Still a bit lacking in grunt, but beggars can't be choosers eh!

[Devil]

Yeh, GDi is absolutely gutless, I too have driven the 2.4 and hated it. Prefer the older 2.5 engine.

My mechanics opinion is to steer clear of the GDi engines. Something about the plugs or something to do with the throttle bodies fouling up really easily.

Try a legnum VR4. Just dont bother with anything turbo with high k's

[TonyB]

Yeh, GDi is absolutely gutless, I too have driven the 2.4 and hated it. Prefer the older 2.5 engine.

My mechanics opinion is to steer clear of the GDi engines. Something about the plugs or something to do with the throttle bodies fouling up really easily.

After a VR4 most non-turbo cars would feel gutless I would think.
My limited knowledge of the GDi is that the injectors squirt directly into the combustion chamber. I've heard that they can get fouled up or something. Apparently GDi's also reburn their own emmissions or something. Anyway, I'll get a direct comparison tonight as I'm test driving a 2.4 GDi and an older 2.5 V6.
I think any VR4 in my price range will have done a few k's...

[onearmedbandit]

Tony, been a few days since I've been in contact sorry, been tied up. Nothing I can get hold of in your price range from the local wholesalers in 2.5 4wd Tiptronic, looks like you might be onto one anyway. I'm still keeping my eyes and ears open.

[Biff]

I've a Legacy 250T and the darned thing is so thirsty I keep getting the fuel gauge and the speedo confused. I've only had it for three months and I'm going to sell it after xmas. Another negative aspect is the fact that my left leg gets cramps after even the shortest journey due to the fact that I can't straighten my left leg out properly as the centre console and rear drive shaft bulge through the middle of the car encroaching into the drivers footwell.

On the plus side it has acres of room, nice cruiser and pokey. But man is it a thirsty S.O.B.

[TonyB]

Tony, been a few days since I've been in contact sorry, been tied up. Nothing I can get hold of in your price range from the local wholesalers in 2.5 4wd Tiptronic, looks like you might be onto one anyway. I'm still keeping my eyes and ears open.
No worries. Did you get the GT sorted out? So far it's the best car I've tried, but from what I can se it's gone anyway. Tried a GTB- loved it except for the wooden planks for seats and bone shaking ride. Tried a 250T B spec, nice car, but confirmed my dislike of autos. Tried a TS-R, not bad for a 2 litre, but the engine noise would drive me nuts pretty quick. A freind took me for a spin in his 2.0 Cefiro just so I could see what a newish 2 litre goes like.... not enough poke. Michelle has decided she likes white wagons- got a nice white GT? VR4?

[onearmedbandit]

Got a white VR4, are you 'adjusting' your budget Tony??

[Indo]

Thanks Motu, I'll give it a go. Do you know much about the 2.5V6 in the Legnums? What about the Tiptronic Auto?

I have a 99, 2.5 v6 Galant 24 wagon, which is the n.z version of the legnum. (i think anywahy). It has ample grunt, have had no problems with the tiptronic and it handles extremely well. Its done about 150,000 km now with zero problems. All ive replaced is the tires.

Compared to my previous holdens and fords its streaks ahead.

Try www.esanda.co.nz for a few cheap wagon deals.....

[TonyB]

Got a white VR4, are you 'adjusting' your budget Tony??
Can't remember what I told you. Are you prepared to move a bit? Remember it's cash. Signing the docs at lunch time tomorrow...
Haven't even driven a VR4- if it rides anything like GTB don't worry about it.

Indo- thanks for the tip. I was supposed to try a 2.4 GDi and a 2.5 V6 tonight. The GDi had a flat battery (take it home and jump start it in the morning they said!- no thanks) and the V6 hadn't arrived from the groomers :angry2: Different car yards- neither of them Onearmedbandits (their cars go!)

[Jinx3d]

"Legnum" sounds like a kind of vegetable. :crazy:
And Mitsubishis suck big time. And for those naysayers - next time you're following a smokey car on the road, most times it will be a Mitsubishi (or else a 323/Laser, 626/Telstar). Mitsubishis rings tend to let oil past as the kms get up, as do the valve guides on those other horrible cars I mentioned {shudder}.<SHUDDER>

Yeah, check this out.
My 1993 Mitsubishi magna wagon has 357,000 kays on the clock. Burns about 1 litre every 5000 kays and aside from a bit of noise from the timing chain and a whine in 1st shes a damn good wagon. I get mid 400's from a tank which costs about $50-60 to fill from bone dry. The back seats drop flat and I can sleep in it fine. (6'2)

2.6 litre motor so not overly endowed but then thats why I own a motorcycle.

If I had more money I wouldnt hesitate and buy a legnum, (the later model) but not till this one wont get a wof.

[Motu]

Well I'm with Vifferman - the smokers are certainly Mitsi and Mazda/Fords from the 80s,a lot to do with the poor breathing system,the Mitsi breathing system was almost a copy of the Hillman Hunter,straight onto the air filter,finding the filters wringing wet with oil was not uncommon.Those chain drive Magna's were the crappiest motor Mitsi ever made,and they have made more dud motors than any of the other Jap makers by far.Cracked blocks and timming chains,fumming like a steam loco,at least they don't break balance belts (???why have them???) which then jump into the main belt,taking out all your valves.Dumb move Mitsubishi,really dumb.

I've got 2 Mitsi's and love em - but both reserected from the dead.

[TonyB]

Finally bought one! And from onearmedbandit no less. I ended up going for a Legacy GT, basically because my wife and I like them, and they are the only car available in decent numbers (in Chch) with 4WD, 5 speed, room, grunt etc with the right price. The 3 year warranty will provide some peace of mind. Hopefully I can afford to feed it- shouldn't be a problem as it will be a family car and the kids won't appreciate it if we start putting the foot down.

I recommend that any Chch Kiwibikers looking for a car send a PM to onearmedbandit. He's a top bloke!

[Slipstream]

Basically, it has to be a wagon, it has to be fairly big, it has to have a 5 speed box- no autos allowed by decree of wife, it needs to have a bit of grunt, it must have a petrol engine, it must be a car

It's a shame it has to be a wagon... Also I hated autos too....But some are just irresistable :)

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=7515

[onearmedbandit]

Awww shucks Tony, thanks. Glad I could help you both out, it has been a pleasure doing business with you and Michelle.