Work Vs Dole

[Disco Dan]

Work vs The Dole.


Now first off, dont get me wrong I am not trying to make a decision here!

Scenarios:


Person XY earns $700 per week then quits and goes on benefit. This person then gets (because of a child) about the same amount per week from the government.

Person YX earns enough to cover expenses with only a couple of hundred to spare each week. This person goes on the social and then gets rent paid by government and pretty much sits on a about $100 per week.

Where is the incentive to work?

Unless your in a high paying job, there is not a lot holding low income people into employment is there!

:blink:

Now my job is not exactly 'high paid' but it is adequate for my basic requirements for living, although prospects for future growth and 'moving up the ladder' is about nil. Unless of course I go back to University, which costs money.. which I could not afford. I could actually get more money per week as a student on the benefit than working part time while studying... now that is wrong.

now some of you may say $700 scenario is bollocks, but I know that person and she is able to maintain a $300p/w rental in a very good suburb of the shore while living a very nice lifestyle. All taxpayer funded.

[skidMark]

Welcome to my life dan, wanna come over for some caviar?

"skidMark, taxpayer funded, since ages ago"

[Disco Dan]

err no thanks i'm good... leave your poor goldfish alone.

[skidMark]

err no thanks i'm good... leave your poor goldfish alone.


nooooez real caviar, im living it up wooo

i did turn down qa job once, part time for the amount they were paying me equated to less than the dole.

So why on earth would i go off it, hmmm i had no morals at the time though.

[nodrog]

.... gets rent paid by government ....

where do i sign up for this?

[Disco Dan]

When part of your job entails supporting your client at WINZ appointments, getting them a place to live etc... you pick up a few contacts and tips along the way. Part of the job is getting as much as possible for the client.

[Mully]

i did turn down a job once, part time for the amount they were paying me equated to less than the dole.

So why on earth would i go off it, hmmm i had no morals at the time though.

At the time?? So you do now?? Then why have you not taken the job down the line??

And this is on of the problems with this country, people can't be bothered. If it's the same money working for minimum wage, people will choose the easy way out, rather than try to better themselves.

It's all about being able to look at yourself in the mirror and know you are at least trying to get ahead.

[Dargor]

work = X money
dole = X money
drug dealing = Y money
dole + drug dealing = X+Y money

Its a no brainer, which is a pitty because all those people that have no brain can work it out.

[ManDownUnder]

Or conversely actually having a job I have no cap to how much I can earn, and consequently have few limits to what I can do.

The dole is the gravy train for underachievers.

[HTFU]

Work vs The Dole.

Where is the incentive to work?



I guess the trick is to either earn a lot more above any threshold for government handouts or just below it. To financially get ahead you need the coin but to just survive week to week you can get by on very little.

The extra money from working (we were on $75000 in 2000 and $35000 in 2007) allows you a bit of breathing space to do some stuff, be it invest or trip around other countries etc. Luckily we sunk some of that money back then into property, so being rent free now helps to live on a low income with a government top up (:Oi, thats right being freehold don't stop the government money honey)

So why do it this way - more time together and less time working and still many years ahead to save and start a business etc. Still paying tax but getting it back just like a business would, so at the moment this is our business investment. :baby:

[skidMark]

At the time?? So you do now?? Then why have you not taken the job down the line??

And this is on of the problems with this country, people can't be bothered. If it's the same money working for minimum wage, people will choose the easy way out, rather than try to better themselves.

It's all about being able to look at yourself in the mirror and know you are at least trying to get ahead.


Because i have been offered a job in auckland, either way i have employment, i just need to decide alot of things.

Leave it for a different thread or PM please.

[BIHB@0610]

Where is the incentive to work?




The incentive is in having self respect, and setting a decent example for your kids. Any person who raises their kids long term on a benefit (other than sickness) should be ashamed. It's supposed to be a safety net, not a way of life.

Oh and by the way, the DPB should be cut by 75% once all the kids are at school - what else are parents going to do between 9 and 3 FFS? Oooh and once you're on the benefit there should be no funding for additional kids. I'd happily pay my taxes towards heaps of contraception though .....

Don't vote Labour!!!

[Str8 Jacket]

Oh and by the way, the DPB should be cut by 75% once all the kids are at school - what else are parents going to do between 9 and 3 FFS? Oooh and once you're on the benefit there should be no funding for additional kids. I'd happily pay my taxes towards heaps of contraception though .....

I sometimes wonder if it'd be cheaper for the government to say after having xx amount of children while on the dole then you will have to undergo an operation so that you are unable to have any more children. I know that everyones situation is different but surely there is a way to stop encouraging people to keep producing while on the benefit?!

[ManDownUnder]

User pays.

I pay the bastards, and I need my lawns done.

[Tank]

The dole and your job may both be worth X - but the Dole will always be X - a job can be unlimited (within reason).

Personally I also think that the feeling of professional and personal fulfilment of doing a job well makes a better person.

Sitting in bed smoking all day and watching you become a nothing person, you achieve nothing, and at the end of the day contribute little to society - you simply exist.

Not for me I'm afraid! nor for anyone that I would choose to be friends with.

Its so easy to get a job its disgusting that people are even on the Dole.

[The Pastor]

in the doledrums on the dole.

[FROSTY]

Heres the problem spelled out in black and white. We live in a ME --NOW society.There is an expectation of instant gratification.
Dan you hit it on the noggin. Why should you go to uni?--because in the future you will reap the benifits.
A person sitting on their ass on the dole is where they are gonna be in 20 years whereas you have the opertunity to improve yaself.
Person working 40hours a week in a job paying $700 a week is pissed off
Ok so waddayado? Get a second job earning $150 a week flipping burgers onn a friday/saturday night.
That $150 pays for the uni classes so then you can get better pay at ya first job.
But ya keep flippin burgers anyhoo and put the money aside for deposit on a house. Fark me pretty soon you are renting ya house ot to said dole bludger

[Spiderpig]

There should be no benifit in nz...Maybe one off hardship funds, but once you use that wild card its gone and gets valid after 5 years or something. And still have the pension as some of us work our asses off and need a bit of a swishier lifestyle later on in life.

How ever, people who are disabled, and mentally impaired etc, then its a different matter...

If people choose to have kids support them, why let the middle and upper class pay for their asses via our taxes. Too many times I have walked into winz to get info on different things, and only to see adults sitting there waiting for their next hand feed of cash. They can function in society, why not get off their asses and work?

Seems the easier way out is to have kids, raise them in a society where sponging off the goverment is acceptable, and not give anything back to the community apart from tagging on peoples fences lovely colours, abusing people, drinking, drugs and being scum of the earth.

Problem is people think they have too many rights and abuse the systems.

Seriously if you were handed cash on a plate equivalent to what you were earning on a weekly basis would you work for it or not? I'd say over 90% would say they would take the cash and not work.

So how do people get ahead? save and invest? no, its more like follow suit with unlimited debts to organisations. If you want it you'll get it, even if it means taking out a loan.

Access to funds has changed society. People have lost value of saving, and earning something that they really want. Teens have access to credit cards, can get flasher cars etc, and dont appreciate it as much as what people did 50 years ago. If you saved hard for your first bike then bought it, it would mean alot more to you personally rather than have it on finance. You saved up to achieve a goal, rather than walk in and say "I want that one" signed and away you go. Sure you're happy but its not 100% yours is it.

Society is breaking down with the lack of motivation to work. Ethics of commuities are strong worldwide, and tend to follow influence among one another. How many generations can stay on a benifit? If this is what children are exposed to as they look up to their parents at a young age, they deem this is acceptable and follow suit.

It's a circle which is opening and more people are waking up to "why do I need to work when the govt will support me with the same amount" easy way out. If they cant support themselves, their problem not mine, sad to say the more I work the more my tax supports them, and people give you jealous looks when you have things a little nicer than them.

[Oakie]

i did turn down qa job once, part time for the amount they were paying me equated to less than the dole.
So why on earth would i go off it, hmmm i had no morals at the time though.

I spent 18 months on the dole in '93 / '94. Was getting about $280 a week in the hand I think. After 18 months I took a part time job netting about $230 a week as I thought that would at least give me a chance to move up, build a career and earn more. And that's exactly what happened. Quite comfy now thank you very much
WINZ (or whatever it was called then ... 'Income Support'? ) topped up the difference between what I was earning and what I would have been getting on the dole. Net result was that I was working 30 hours a week for the same money that allowed me to sit on my arse at home and do nothing. And it was worth every god-damned hour!

[MIXONE]

if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em.

[avgas]

Never got a student allowance.
Never got money from my folks (they had none).
Out the other side and now underpaid for what i do (Basically Tech Support for NZ).
Misses and I had the hardest time, and poured nearly $20K into keeping her here - because i was legit and didn't just marry her to keep her here.

I haven't had a pay rise in over a year. Or even a review for that matter.
Every one thinks they are "Managers" here, when they don't manage anything and have no one under them.

There is no corporate ladder - just an escalator of drooling idiots.
I'm starting to wonder at what point this kiwi says "Fuck you NZ"?

[ambler]

There should be no benifit in nz...Maybe one off hardship funds, but once you use that wild card its gone and gets valid after 5 years or something. And still have the pension as some of us work our asses off and need a bit of a swishier lifestyle later on in life.

fwiw that's exactly how it is in Japan. You are eligible for a (bread-line amount) temporary dole, but only if you were made redundant and if you regularly prove you are actively looking for employment. The result is:

-people save more
-they value their job more
-education (and self-improvement, presentation etc) is more important
-beneficiaries are not usually sitting around doing nothing
-people have more respect for family/friends, and others in general since they are the real safety-net
-people have more respect for others property, and
-more respect for people who have 'made it'
-income tax is only 19.5% up to $90k/year

And that last point also provides incentive to get a job too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9JIwxhRfug

[98tls]

The dole if we must have it should be dished out in tokens redeemable for the basics of life meat/veges etc no smokes/booze, that combined with when the compulsory insurance comes in you might as well hand over your car licence as you do in at least one state in the US as you wont be able to afford insurance.No booze/smokes and car might convince some to get off there arses and get a job.

[DUCATI*HARD]

the tax payer owes me!

[skidMark]

User pays.

I pay the bastards, and I need my lawns done.


ummmm i gotta go :P

nice sig btw.

[skidMark]

The dole and your job may both be worth X - but the Dole will always be X - a job can be unlimited (within reason).

Personally I also think that the feeling of professional and personal fulfilment of doing a job well makes a better person.

Sitting in bed smoking all day and watching you become a nothing person, you achieve nothing, and at the end of the day contribute little to society - you simply exist.

Not for me I'm afraid! nor for anyone that I would choose to be friends with.

Its so easy to get a job its disgusting that people are even on the Dole.

Whats the motivation to contribute to a sociaty run by idiots?

[Disco Dan]

Heres the problem spelled out in black and white. We live in a ME --NOW society.There is an expectation of instant gratification.
Dan you hit it on the noggin. Why should you go to uni?--because in the future you will reap the benifits.
A person sitting on their ass on the dole is where they are gonna be in 20 years whereas you have the opertunity to improve yaself.
Person working 40hours a week in a job paying $700 a week is pissed off
Ok so waddayado? Get a second job earning $150 a week flipping burgers onn a friday/saturday night.
That $150 pays for the uni classes so then you can get better pay at ya first job.
But ya keep flippin burgers anyhoo and put the money aside for deposit on a house. Fark me pretty soon you are renting ya house ot to said dole bludger

Quite right there, there is huge gratification from having a job. Believe me I have no intention of going on the social, I plan to go back to uni - but first I must rake in some more $$ from somewhere. THAT is the hard part - but hey nothing good in life is easy.

[FROSTY]

The dole if we must have it should be dished out in tokens redeemable for the basics of life meat/veges etc no smokes/booze, that combined with when the compulsory insurance comes in you might as well hand over your car licence as you do in at least one state in the US as you wont be able to afford insurance.No booze/smokes and car might convince some to get off there arses and get a job.
Bingo dude
I just cannot understand how someone on the dole is able to buy smokes and beer with this money.
Personally I think all unemployed peoples expenses should be paid directly to the landlord,power co etc with a voucher for food.
If they can prove they are going for job interviews then a travel alowance to pay for public transport or petrol

[BIHB@0610]

The voucher should be for garden tools, fertiliser and seeds .... give them something to get off their lazy arses for .....

[homer]

Work vs The Dole.


Now first off, dont get me wrong I am not trying to make a decision here!

Scenarios:


Person XY earns $700 per week then quits and goes on benefit. This person then gets (because of a child) about the same amount per week from the government.

Person YX earns enough to cover expenses with only a couple of hundred to spare each week. This person goes on the social and then gets rent paid by government and pretty much sits on a about $100 per week.

Where is the incentive to work?

Unless your in a high paying job, there is not a lot holding low income people into employment is there!

:blink:

Now my job is not exactly 'high paid' but it is adequate for my basic requirements for living, although prospects for future growth and 'moving up the ladder' is about nil. Unless of course I go back to University, which costs money.. which I could not afford. I could actually get more money per week as a student on the benefit than working part time while studying... now that is wrong.

now some of you may say $700 scenario is bollocks, but I know that person and she is able to maintain a $300p/w rental in a very good suburb of the shore while living a very nice lifestyle. All taxpayer funded.

is she single , and how do i get on that plan with the govt

[flyingcrocodile46]

The incentive is in having self respect, and setting a decent example for your kids. Any person who raises their kids long term on a benefit (other than sickness) should be ashamed. It's supposed to be a safety net, not a way of life.

Oh and by the way, the DPB should be cut by 75% once all the kids are at school - what else are parents going to do between 9 and 3 FFS? Oooh and once you're on the benefit there should be no funding for additional kids. I'd happily pay my taxes towards heaps of contraception though .....

Don't vote Labour!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: well said


Heres the problem spelled out in black and white. We live in a ME --NOW society.There is an expectation of instant gratification.
Dan you hit it on the noggin. Why should you go to uni?--because in the future you will reap the benifits.
A person sitting on their ass on the dole is where they are gonna be in 20 years whereas you have the opertunity to improve yaself.
Person working 40hours a week in a job paying $700 a week is pissed off
Ok so waddayado? Get a second job earning $150 a week flipping burgers onn a friday/saturday night.
That $150 pays for the uni classes so then you can get better pay at ya first job.
But ya keep flippin burgers anyhoo and put the money aside for deposit on a house. Fark me pretty soon you are renting ya house ot to said dole bludger


:2thumbsup... nice to see that 10 percent of the punters here have a conscience and motivation to get ahead without riding on the shoulders of others.


What the hell is with this thread?... most of you need a good smack in the head for not even acknowledging this one simple reality.

The bags of shit who have the freedom to voice their discontent at the lack of incentive they have to *earn their own way* don't even factor (in their considerations) the fact that if everyone was as fucking useless and worthless as they are... there wouldn't be anyone paying taxes so that those (who are genuinely) in need can survive.

Not even once have I heard any of the apathetic bludgers express any gratitude that they owe their f*cking lives to people who aren't as f*cking useless as they are. That's right!... they owe their very lives to the ever reducing percentage of stand up citizens who work for a living and pay taxes.

If I had my way... I'd slit the lazy bastards throats and mince them up for dog food.

[Spiderpig]

Winz offers harship food vouchers...walk in, beg and bingo..terms are that you have to only buy food smokes and booze are not allowed, max change is up to $5 - I've processed enough of these pieces of paper, only to stare at the goods in trolleys and shake my head.

Whats worse, I was at the supermarket shopping last week, and a lady, must have been late 40's early 50's all dolled up in gold jewellery buying top shelf brands of food and THEN present one of these vouchers...the look I gave her was of disgust..how could she sleep at night...

Thing is you are given a sum of $ weekly, pay the utility bills and hello, got some spare change, lets spend it...thus creating folk to live week to week relying on the income.

Public holidays throw these class of people something chronic. Too many times I have heard "when will my money come in its the long weekend I have none till next week" no planning, budgeting or thinking ahead. A client rang once while I was at work "I have no money to pay my phone bill what do I do" yet she was receiving wages, student income, and had well over $500 per week, yet it was all gone! Then starts crying and said "my phone will get cut off"

I hate people like that.

What is your reason for waking up in the morning and getting out of bed, what is your purpose in society as a member???

If you are working you will feel you have a purpose in life, people rely on you as part of their team to achieve goals within an organisation, you will feel appreciated as an individual among peers, as well as have more freedom financially to do what you want earn what you like etc etc..

[homer]

Heres the problem spelled out in black and white. We live in a ME --NOW society.There is an expectation of instant gratification.
Dan you hit it on the noggin. Why should you go to uni?--because in the future you will reap the benifits.
A person sitting on their ass on the dole is where they are gonna be in 20 years whereas you have the opertunity to improve yaself.
Person working 40hours a week in a job paying $700 a week is pissed off
Ok so waddayado? Get a second job earning $150 a week flipping burgers onn a friday/saturday night.
That $150 pays for the uni classes so then you can get better pay at ya first job.
But ya keep flippin burgers anyhoo and put the money aside for deposit on a house. Fark me pretty soon you are renting ya house ot to said dole bludger

i think you got a few very good points there , actually mostly good points.
but i think you forget that theres a lot of us that work most days of the week and earn enought to have a good life style , but we cant exactly do anything to make more money , as theres not enough day s in the week .

so theres me being pissed off with what i get for the hours i work , and not able to do something else either .

so do you want me to be working 12 hrs a day and have to do it every day of the year.
then i end up with money and no time to do anything i want to do ,
oh well maybe i should be on the dole , get the rent payed , and get a cashie on the side .

[98tls]

A bit off topic but this thread made me think of being in town today and seeing that already there are people walking around with poppies for Anzac day which in turn makes me think of all those poor buggers who went off and gave it all and we debate all these years later about a choice to work or not,fucked up really.

[homer]

A bit off topic but this thread made me think of being in town today and seeing that already there are people walking around with poppies for Anzac day which in turn makes me think of all those poor buggers who went off and gave it all and we debate all these years later about a choice to work or not,fucked up really.

thats probably the best post on kb i bet ,
wish they could be here again to get the 40 hr week back and weekends off
id do it my self , but im just 1 man what can i do .

[Coyote]

Don't vote Labour!!!
Then who? I may not be poor and not want my taxes (once I get a job soon) going towards the local hydroponics industry, but I ain't rich either and don't particularly want to be screwed over by National. They'll make the dole harder to get, great, but student loan interest will come back hindering those that do try to better themselves. They'll do whatever costs them less, good or bad.

I sometimes wonder if it'd be cheaper for the government to say after having xx amount of children while on the dole then you will have to undergo an operation so that you are unable to have any more children. I know that everyones situation is different but surely there is a way to stop encouraging people to keep producing while on the benefit?!
It'll be a dark day when the courts are allowed to order invasive surgery.

Encourage them to stop producing by getting rid of the incentives. I remember a episode of Bro Town, one of the characters was being born, and the mum said something along the lines of "this is another x dollars to our dole!". Dysgenics...

I've often thought of a licence to become a parent. It'd be too difficult to enforce though. What happens when there's an accident? Would they get taxed, or would they start ordering out abortions, etc.

Another idea was a 'public etiquette card'. Red: Disruptive, Yellow: Restricted, Green: OK. A test would decide what card you'd get. Then there'd be green card buses where you wouldn't get disturbed by the idiots, so public transport wouldn't be as bad. Though I think this delves to far into segregation.

But ya keep flippin burgers anyhoo and put the money aside for deposit on a house. Fark me pretty soon you are renting ya house ot to said dole bludger
I read in the Listener that until the housing market crashes, most new home seekers will not be able to afford their own home due to living expenses taking any deposit money away from them. So they have to remain paying their landlord that owns 20 other rental properties, 2 homes and a bach.

[homer]

Then who? I may not be poor and not want my taxes (once I get a job soon) going towards the local hydroponics industry, but I ain't rich either and don't particularly want to be screwed over by National. They'll make the dole harder to get, great, but student loan interest will come back hindering those that do try to better themselves. They'll do whatever costs them less, good or bad.

It'll be a dark day when the courts are allowed to order invasive surgery.

Encourage them to stop producing by getting rid of the incentives. I remember a episode of Bro Town, one of the characters was being born, and the mum said something along the lines of "this is another x dollars to our dole!". Dysgenics...

I've often thought of a licence to become a parent. It'd be too difficult to enforce though. What happens when there's an accident? Would they get taxed, or would they start ordering out abortions, etc.

Another idea was a 'public etiquette card'. Red: Disruptive, Yellow: Restricted, Green: OK. A test would decide what card you'd get. Then there'd be green card buses where you wouldn't get disturbed by the idiots, so public transport wouldn't be as bad. Though I think this delves to far into segregation.

I read in the Listener that until the housing market crashes, most new home seekers will not be able to afford their own home due to living expenses taking any deposit money away from them. So they have to remain paying their landlord that owns 20 other rental properties, 2 homes and a bach.

for myself and part
i have worked out that wages earned in a week need to $135 a week added to aprox
with no hps and if we had 20000 for a deposit and the house was say 200000 we actually would still be worst off than we are now paying rent and having hps . cost of the mortgage today for that is 355 per week

[Disco Dan]

is she single , and how do i get on that plan with the govt

No I would stay away from her, ex client. Still a bit 'off'.

Ring me up next time you have a WINZ appointment, but i'll want my fee :innocent:

[homer]

yep will do , but unfortunately i dont go to winz

[scumdog]

I'll just keep on working for the pittance I get to afford to keep my Harleys, hot-rods, classic cars and country touring life-style AND have a flash payout when I retire...:woohoo:

Mainly my stubborn old-skool self-respect and pride keeps me working - that and a certain amount of drive and ambition.

Even when turfed out on my bum with all the other Fortex workers (Fisher&Peykel was a sort of re-enactment) couldn't bring myself to sign-on for hand-outs, I found work anywhere I could..

[scumdog]

A bit off topic but this thread made me think of being in town today and seeing that already there are people walking around with poppies for Anzac day which in turn makes me think of all those poor buggers who went off and gave it all and we debate all these years later about a choice to work or not,fucked up really.

Top marks - it shouldn't be a choice IMHO.:angry:

The old diggers must be spinning in their graves at what this country has turned into.

[scumdog]

The voucher should be for garden tools, fertiliser and seeds .... give them something to get off their lazy arses for .....


Like in several (if not most) US states - a place to stay, a voucher for food etc but not booze or fags - oh and no drivers licence either.:crybaby:

[Disco Dan]

too right! Those dole bludgers get far too much money.

You should have to go to the dole office to collect it each week like they used to do in England. Oh and every couple of weeks they should have to meet with someone at the office and convince them that they have been looking for work and still need it!

[cowboyz]

I sometimes wonder if it'd be cheaper for the government to say after having xx amount of children while on the dole then you will have to undergo an operation so that you are unable to have any more children. I know that everyones situation is different but surely there is a way to stop encouraging people to keep producing while on the benefit?!
there is so much wrong with this statement I am not sure if I even want to comment on it. Especially from someone who preaches tolerance.



Mainly my stubborn old-skool self-respect and pride keeps me working - that and a certain amount of drive and ambition.

Even when turfed out on my bum with all the other Fortex workers (Fisher&Peykel was a sort of re-enactment) couldn't bring myself to sign-on for hand-outs, I found work anywhere I could..
on ya.
I have never been on the dole myself. I dont think my ego could take the hit to be honest. A little too proud to be begging for money.
Had some fairly crap to shit jobs over the years though. And some good ones.

too right! Those dole bludgers get far too much money.

You should have to go to the dole office to collect it each week like they used to do in England. Oh and every couple of weeks they should have to meet with someone at the office and convince them that they have been looking for work and still need it!

The question would be, is your mate looking for a job? He seems to get one offered to him every 2 mins and still not working...........

[Str8 Jacket]

It'll be a dark day when the courts are allowed to order invasive surgery.

Encourage them to stop producing by getting rid of the incentives. I remember a episode of Bro Town, one of the characters was being born, and the mum said something along the lines of "this is another x dollars to our dole!". Dysgenics...

I've often thought of a licence to become a parent. It'd be too difficult to enforce though. What happens when there's an accident? Would they get taxed, or would they start ordering out abortions, etc.

Another idea was a 'public etiquette card'. Red: Disruptive, Yellow: Restricted, Green: OK. A test would decide what card you'd get. Then there'd be green card buses where you wouldn't get disturbed by the idiots, so public transport wouldn't be as bad. Though I think this delves to far into segregation.


Ah for sure mate, I dont know what the answer is! All I know is that a few of my mates have at least 3, 4 or 5 kids to different fathers just to get the benefit. I dont judge them cause they have personal issues they need to work out and have been through hell but it does make me wonder if the dole may be some kind of "incentive" type thing in some degree.... But as I say I dont live these guy's lives and dont know what they go through so I dont really know the answer at all. You cant judge someone until you've been in their shoes, that's for sure!!!!

[cowboyz]

Heres a clue for you. EVERYONE judges everyone. You have judged me and made an opinion of me the first time you met me as I did of you. Does that worry you? In fact, I will go further than that now the internet is rife with peoples opinions in that we judge people on what they type which is neglecting body laugage and tone.
We certainly stand on opposite sides of the fence with the whole "people should be allowed to do whatever they want without critisim" and then you advocate evasive procedures as above. Simply shocking.
The whole stand on "you dont know me and dont know what I have been through" is simply irrelvant. I dont need to know your life story to make an opinion on what I think of you from the experiences I have had with you, and that includes real life and the internet.

[cowboyz]

just to save the thread being tossed into PD I will refer to Pm as I have a couple of questions for you.

[skidMark]

Oh cmon make it public.

:jerry::jerry::jerry::jerry::jerry:

:corn: :corn: :corn: :corn: :corn:

[madandy]

Good on you Scummie.
I'd love to work some extra hours to pay for some upskilling tertiary training but won't leave my young fella wondering where his dad is in the evenings. So I'll just press on with the current situation and negotiate some training in my next review or use a salary increase to pay for it.
And study at home.
Students could well learn some goal setting skills relating to saving for some of their course fee's rather than moaning about paying interest on student loans. All the pricks I see using gubbmint loan cash to buy cars and bikes and crap gives me the shits 'cause that's our fucking tax money their borrowing. Pay some interest on it like the rest of us fuck ya.
I'll earn my tertiary education & not cry because the poliaticians all got free uni back in the day.

Skidmark [and all the useless wankers not contributing to our little Nations' society] should have his PC confiscated. Who's paying for yer bloody internet connection sonny?

[DUCATI*HARD]

WHEN i was on the dole,,,the tax payer owed me:bash:

[skidMark]

Skidmark [and all the useless wankers not contributing to our little Nations' society] should have his PC confiscated. Who's paying for yer bloody internet connection sonny?


You have no right to comment, nor do you know the circumstaces surrounding why i am on the benefit.

I pay for my internet connection, with government money, yep?

whatcha gunna do?:rolleyes:

wanker.

PS. you prick, remember who talked to you while you were up at all hours while ya wife was giving birth.

Oh yeah. ME.

Unappreciative bastard.

[flyingcrocodile46]

You have no right to comment


I dissagree. Any tax payer has the right to comment on where and what **their money** is frittered away on.

It appears to me that the beneficiaries are the "ungrateful bastards" that have "no right to comment"

You are our bought and paid for 'bitch'

Get a job

[skidMark]

I dissagree. Any tax payer has the right to comment on where and what **their money** is frittered away on.

It appears to me that the beneficiaries are the "ungrateful bastards" that have "no right to comment"

You are our bought and paid for 'bitch'

Get a job

Make me...lol

[flyingcrocodile46]

Make me...lol

Your lack of denial is taken as confirmation that you

1. lack the conscience or motivation to get ahead without riding on the shoulders of others.

2. are a bag of shit parasite who can't be arsed to earn your own way and that you don't care to acknowledge that you're a burden to every tax payer in the country and that your lack of social responsibility is resulting in a reduced level of support to those who **really genuinely** need it and an increase in tax to many others who can't afford it.

3. have no gratitude for or acknowledgment of the fact that you owe your existence to people who aren't as f*cking useless as you are.

4. should be minced up for dog food.

5. are an ungrateful bastard that has no right to comment

6. are our bought and paid for bitch


It's good of you to make it clear that your apathy is driven less by ignorance than a complete contempt for those who you feed off.:tugger:

[inlinefour]

Now my job is not exactly 'high paid' but it is adequate for my basic requirements for living, although prospects for future growth and 'moving up the ladder' is about nil. Unless of course I go back to University, which costs money.. which I could not afford. I could actually get more money per week as a student on the benefit than working part time while studying... now that is wrong.


Suck in boy. If you want to go up the ladder and get paid more for what you do then you need to do some sort of degree. I went back as an adult student after earning shitloads of money commercial fishing and noted that I could be getting alot more on the unemployment benefit than on a student allowance, but I wanted to better myself and my employment situation so I knuckled down, found a way of doing things wiser/cheaper/better, robbed from peter to pay paul and at the end of day was in the red big time on all my bills which took about 6 months of wages to clear, a heafty student loan but had the degree and the job and as a bonus the Govt was paying to put me through a post grad diploma with credits towards masters. Now the point of my post it, if you want it, you gotta pay and you gotta pay in ways that bite. But at the end of the day and once my student loan was payed off and I was standing in our garage full of motorcycles, two new, I was farking laughing! :2thumbsup
P.S. There was solo mums doing the Ba also but they got an awesome handout to help appartently. Was one I got home for a few drinks one time, but thats a different story... :whistle:

[avgas]

To be cold and hard if this didn't exist - i wouldn't be here.
Its worth $4k/year to me so i consider that when i consider my salary in NZ.
If it were canceled over night my notice would be handed in next morning. And i consider myself a loyal worker.....infact im just shooting into the office now.

[madandy]

You have no right to comment, nor do you know the circumstaces surrounding why i am on the benefit.

I pay for my internet connection, with government money, yep?

whatcha gunna do?:rolleyes:

wanker.

PS. you prick, remember who talked to you while you were up at all hours while ya wife was giving birth.

Oh yeah. ME.

Unappreciative bastard.

Grow up.
That was 4.5 months ago Mark and in the very early stages of labour.
After our wee MSN session (and it was quite enjoyable I admit) I spent the next 27hours at her bedside and operating theatre at hospital and held our son as he was born and cut his umbilical cord.
Child is doing well, thanks for asking all those times, not.
In that time my son has possibly made more positive steps than yourself.
You should be ashamed of yourself, making ecuses for not having the guts to go do something you may not enjoy to earn your place here and even get yourself a working bike again! Maybe you could get out in the world and show everyone how damn hard you can ride and earn some respect.
You disrespect people on here, and in real life, no doubt all the time and to those who llend you their ear on the odd occassion - where's your appreciative gestures?

you're the wanker.

Get a job.

[Coyote]

Ah for sure mate, I dont know what the answer is! All I know is that a few of my mates have at least 3, 4 or 5 kids to different fathers just to get the benefit. I dont judge them cause they have personal issues they need to work out and have been through hell but it does make me wonder if the dole may be some kind of "incentive" type thing in some degree.... But as I say I dont live these guy's lives and dont know what they go through so I dont really know the answer at all. You cant judge someone until you've been in their shoes, that's for sure!!!!
I'm not gonna have 5 kids to find out either :p

[Str8 Jacket]

I'm not gonna have 5 kids to find out either :p

Thank god for that mate!! :D

[FROSTY]

Now theres an idea. Given that I (along with a million or so other NZers) pay skidmark and his fellow dole bludgers to stay in the comfort they've become acoustomed. Why shouldn't Winz be totaslly transparent?
Also I think if a job ANY job is made available to said bludgers they should have to take it or loose their dole.

Mind you I've been an advocate for the old "you have to earn it" school of thought for many years.
A person on the dole should be either proveing they are actively seeking paid employment -Ie prove they are attending say 3 job interviews a week for the first three months OR they should have to WORK for their dole money sorta like the PD crews. Out in woodhill marking out cycle track or painting schools or clearing drains.

[rachprice]

Good on you Scummie.

Students could well learn some goal setting skills relating to saving for some of their course fee's rather than moaning about paying interest on student loans. All the pricks I see using gubbmint loan cash to buy cars and bikes and crap gives me the shits 'cause that's our fucking tax money their borrowing. Pay some interest on it like the rest of us fuck ya.
I'll earn my tertiary education & not cry because the poliaticians all got free uni back in the day.



Well that happens to be me, I work every summer to support myself, still need my living costs and the like during my studies. My fees are 12g a year for 6 years. How about interest on that. My degree doens't really allow me time to work, in fact in the acceptance package it tells you not to get a job but i still work a couple of shifts at the uni library.
For sure some people are out there fucking the system with any sort of allowance. Although its quite hard to fuck the student loan system. you get $150 for living costs. Screwed if you live in wellington or auckland, $1000 for course related costs. and the fees are paid directly to the tertiary provider.
I also have to pay back money just to live. To pay the bills, its bullshit, I am doing something to better myself and to contribute to society. The people on the dole don't do shit.
I am quite sick of everyone assuming that all young students take advantage of their student loans and moan about nothing!




Mind you I've been an advocate for the old "you have to earn it" school of thought for many years.
A person on the dole should be either proveing they are actively seeking paid employment -Ie prove they are attending say 3 job interviews a week for the first three months OR they should have to WORK for their dole money sorta like the PD crews. Out in woodhill marking out cycle track or painting schools or clearing drains.

I was just thinking this myself, get them to do shit that no one else wants to do. If they cant work they are on the disability benefit which is totally different. That might stop some of the bludging.

[Shadows]

Work vs The Dole.


Now first off, dont get me wrong I am not trying to make a decision here!

Scenarios:


Person XY earns $700 per week then quits and goes on benefit. This person then gets (because of a child) about the same amount per week from the government.



Person YX earns enough to cover expenses with only a couple of hundred to spare each week. This person goes on the social and then gets rent paid by government and pretty much sits on a about $100 per week.
Where is the incentive to work?

Unless your in a high paying job, there is not a lot holding low income people into employment is there!

:blink:

Now my job is not exactly 'high paid' but it is adequate for my basic requirements for living, although prospects for future growth and 'moving up the ladder' is about nil. Unless of course I go back to University, which costs money.. which I could not afford. I could actually get more money per week as a student on the benefit than working part time while studying... now that is wrong.

now some of you may say $700 scenario is bollocks, but I know that person and she is able to maintain a $300p/w rental in a very good suburb of the shore while living a very nice lifestyle. All taxpayer funded.

That kind of thinking pisses me off.

Instead of half of the population considering leeching off everybody else who work for a living because they feel they aren't earning enough money in their employment, why don't they consider looking for a better paying job while they are still employed? Hasn't everybody heard there's a tight labour market out there?

So many losers who can't/won't help themselves, not enough goddam bullets. :2guns:

[kevfromcoro]

I have just been layed off at Carter Holt..
went down to WINZ to check out the options....dont want to go on a beny.....so i got CV made up and e-mailed it all over the place..well when have to fill out an application form...all the stupid questions i have to answer..how much schooling have i had...shit havent been to school for 40 yrs.what ever happened to the days when you turned up for a job ,,and the company said..ok..give you a shot at it..nah not like that these days...

[Disco Dan]

That kind of thinking pisses me off.

Instead of half of the population considering leeching off everybody else who work for a living because they feel they aren't earning enough money in their employment, why don't they consider looking for a better paying job while they are still employed? Hasn't everybody heard there's a tight labour market out there?

So many losers who can't/won't help themselves, not enough goddam bullets. :2guns:

Yes it is a bad way of thinking is'nt it!

The only thing between low payed employment and the social is how a person feels about 'leeching' and self respect.

Not something I could live with for any length of time!

But that is my point - the system is set up that way!

[FROSTY]

Yes it is a bad way of thinking is'nt it!

The only thing between low payed employment and the social is how a person feels about 'leeching' and self respect.

Not something I could live with for any length of time!

But that is my point - the system is set up that way!
Not only the system isw set up to ENCOURAGE people to sit on their asses doing nothing. The system makes it more financialy viable for a couple that is perhaps struggling to seperate than to stay together--how does that make sense?
Mind you I've had issues with the "system " forever.

[Rotor]

Quote "The incentive is in having self respect, and setting a decent example for your kids. Any person who raises their kids long term on a benefit (other than sickness) should be ashamed. It's supposed to be a safety net, not a way of life."
that says it all its a privilege not a scam

[speights_bud]

The dole if we must have it should be dished out in tokens redeemable for the basics of life meat/veges etc no smokes/booze, that combined with when the compulsory insurance comes in you might as well hand over your car licence as you do in at least one state in the US as you wont be able to afford insurance.No booze/smokes and car might convince some to get off there arses and get a job.

Agreed, food tokens etc worked for our families back in the times of war etc, its used in the states and encourages money to be spent properly. why should i pay for someone on the dole to buy a lotto ticket?

I'm 19, living out of home, been working as a toolmaker/precision machinist apprentice for a year and a half now, being productive to my business and society.

Yet even after two Pay rises I'm still earning less than minimum wage, ( $11.60 hr) and so are many other apprentices, it's a pay scale that's used nationwide. when you combine living cost (rent $120, Petrol costs, food, power, phone & internet) there's bugger all left.

The Reason My Training organisation is able to pay me under minimum wage is because there is a loophole in the law which exempts training/apprentice
wages.

[MaxB]

Get off your arse and get a fucken job, never be a bludger - was the best advice my Uncle Norm ever gave me. Still holds true today.

There is a lot of truth in the belief that the benefit system is too slack. In a time of full employment I do not believe the dole should be a lifestyle choice. A lot of other countries have a time limit on the benefit. Maybe here?

People who have genuine hardship in their lives should still be helped but heaps of working families are doing it tough and the dole should never be better than working.

[avgas]

The Reason My Training organisation is able to pay me under minimum wage is because there is a loophole in the law which exempts training/apprentice
wages.
Oh no there isn't - they can only do that if they subsidize your salary with external tuition. Alot of apprentices fall into this trap as their boss tells them that they can get away with it.
I have had 3 friends fall into the same trap.
The have to pay you minimum wage.
Oh and FYI i used to pay guys with 2 years experience with tools, no school cert a minimum $38K/Year. In fact that company i know is always looking for guys to be service techs so PM me if you need details.

[speights_bud]

Oh no there isn't - they can only do that if they subsidize your salary with external tuition. Alot of apprentices fall into this trap as their boss tells them that they can get away with it.
I have had 3 friends fall into the same trap.
The have to pay you minimum wage.
Oh and FYI i used to pay guys with 2 years experience with tools, no school cert a minimum $38K/Year. In fact that company i know is always looking for guys to be service techs so PM me if you need details.

Perhaps i should have worded it slightly differently, I receive $11.60 an hour in my pocket (before Tax), an additional SIX dollars an hour (or thereabouts) is paid to my employer (training organisation) by my seconding company (the one i turn up to and do work at).

So yes, some of the money is used to pay for my paperwork courses like you suggest, however i fail to understand how there are people working for my training organisation which is portrayed as a "non-profit" organisation are earning Six figure Salary's :angry: all from my wages.

I'm charged out at $120 an hour btw.

I would have been better off to sign into the apprenticeship Employed by My Workplace with the training organization supervising my study.
That leaves the Business i work for to cover my course costs and i still receive a decent wage, Ie cutting out the middleman.

[Finn]

For most people in this category, there is no incentive. That's why this country is rooted.

The entire annual police budget is spent by social welfare in less than a month.

There needs to be a massive kulling.

[DMNTD]

There needs to be a massive kulling.

You misspelt that last word mate

[Finn]

You misspelt that last word mate

I prefer it spelt with a "k" instead of a "c". Sounds more like kill.

[MIXONE]

For most people in this category, there is no incentive. That's why this country is rooted.

The entire annual police budget is spent by social welfare in less than a month.

There needs to be a massive kulling.

It ends up being $1 in $3 of the tax take goes to the MSD.Unfuckingbelieveable.

[DMNTD]

I prefer it spelt with a "k" instead of a "c". Sounds more like kill.

Oh chortle chortle :apint:

...even I have a bloody job these days :rolleyes:

[Sanx]

I found work anywhere I could..

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*


...even I have a bloody job these days

And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

[TimeOut]

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*



And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.


Wow you wanna stand for goverment:rockon: I'd vote for ya.

You could add to the list, no hand-outs for more than two kids (you want more you pay not us)

[JimO]

Perhaps i should have worded it slightly differently, I receive $11.60 an hour in my pocket (before Tax), an additional SIX dollars an hour (or thereabouts) is paid to my employer (training organisation) by my seconding company (the one i turn up to and do work at).

So yes, some of the money is used to pay for my paperwork courses like you suggest, however i fail to understand how there are people working for my training organisation which is portrayed as a "non-profit" organisation are earning Six figure Salary's :angry: all from my wages.

I'm charged out at $120 an hour btw.

I would have been better off to sign into the apprenticeship Employed by My Workplace with the training organization supervising my study.
That leaves the Business i work for to cover my course costs and i still receive a decent wage, Ie cutting out the middleman.


what do you do to be charged out at $120 a hr as a apprentice

[Mully]

what do you do to be charged out at $120 a hr as a apprentice

Well, the technical term is:

Bow-chicka-bow-wow

[Motig]

Geez I'm glad you lot arn't running the country! I used to have similar opinions about people on the dole then found myself made redundant, took 2 yrs till I finally managed to get another job and it wasn't because I wasn't trying. You suddenly discover that all those skills you thought you had are worthless and that ageism contrary to what the spin doctors say is a factor. Little things like getting a rejection slip a week before the job closes become very demoralising. And where do you people get the big money from the dole from $238 a week was all we got (wife,2 kids) So a lot of you before you start running benes down need to realise you could be thankful for the dole one day.I never dreamed I would ever be on it. That said yes there are bludgers out there and big families on the dole piss me of too. Just dont lump everybody in together. Marvellous isn't it that dole period was several years ago but I still seem to take it personally:argh::crazy: must:calm:

[GSVR]

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.


Could be a good idea. Even if it fails it will create several thousand more jobs with administration ( I'm after a govt job where I have internet access for research purposes). Of course you'd need to run it by a few consultants first but that should only cost around 10 million max.

[Disco Dan]

Geez I'm glad you lot arn't running the country! I used to have similar opinions about people on the dole then found myself made redundant, took 2 yrs till I finally managed to get another job and it wasn't because I wasn't trying. You suddenly discover that all those skills you thought you had are worthless and that ageism contrary to what the spin doctors say is a factor. Little things like getting a rejection slip a week before the job closes become very demoralising. And where do you people get the big money from the dole from $238 a week was all we got (wife,2 kids) So a lot of you before you start running benes down need to realise you could be thankful for the dole one day.I never dreamed I would ever be on it. That said yes there are bludgers out there and big families on the dole piss me of too. Just dont lump everybody in together. Marvellous isn't it that dole period was several years ago but I still seem to take it personally:argh::crazy: must:calm:

http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/get-assistance/extra-help/index.html

You would be very surprised how easy it is to 'spin' your case to increase your weekly amounts.

[Howie]

Work vs The Dole.


Now first off, dont get me wrong I am not trying to make a decision here!

Scenarios:


Person XY earns $700 per week then quits and goes on benefit. This person then gets (because of a child) about the same amount per week from the government.

Person YX earns enough to cover expenses with only a couple of hundred to spare each week. This person goes on the social and then gets rent paid by government and pretty much sits on a about $100 per week.

Where is the incentive to work?




Unless your in a high paying job, there is not a lot holding low income people into employment is there!

:blink:

Now my job is not exactly 'high paid' but it is adequate for my basic requirements for living, although prospects for future growth and 'moving up the ladder' is about nil. Unless of course I go back to University, which costs money.. which I could not afford. I could actually get more money per week as a student on the benefit than working part time while studying... now that is wrong.

now some of you may say $700 scenario is bollocks, but I know that person and she is able to maintain a $300p/w rental in a very good suburb of the shore while living a very nice lifestyle. All taxpayer funded.


Interesting Scenario’s these


The first one (person XY)reads as a Single parent deciding if it is best to keep working, or take a minor drop in money, and spend more time on parenting, Which is different to going on the Dole.
As someone who ended up in that very position about 7 years ago. I know that it is a hard decision to make. A lot of outside factors can influence it like, Is the child school age or pre school? can you readily get time off work when a child is sick? can you get time off during school holidays? well you get paid for the time off? Can you have any flexibility in the hours you work to accommodate your responsibilities to your child, children? How much is before/ after school care costing you? Do you have supportive Family, Friends close by that can help out with responsibilities?

In my situation I had 2 primary school age children, I chose to keep working because I had an understanding Manager who let me start and finish work at a different times to the standard ones. I was given flexibility to get time off when I needed it, and make the time up when I could. I had supportive people around me that could help out at times. Even with all the above it was still a close call to keep working as after I paid for child care, I worked out that I was working for about $20 a week more than if I was on a benefit, this was because of the costs of child care, and earning too much to get any subsidy on child care. So you really have to weigh up the time parenting verses the showing your child/children the "you work for a living choice" and decide which is the best way to go. I know that if one of my children had been pre-school age I would have gone on a benefit. I know if I hadn’t been able to negotiate for the flexibility at work I would have gone on a benefit.
The interesting thing is though if I hadn’t kept working, I wouldn’t have come across the opportunity to start my own Business, and change my financial circumstances for the better.

The Second scenario ( Person YX) Why is he making that choice: Because he/she wants to be Lazy? Because he/she can’t see a career path in their current position? Because their Current Job doesn’t, hold any interest for him? Because he can under our current social system? Because he/she believes the world owes him a living Why?

Now your question about going back to uni or not. That is your personal choice, I know people that have gone back to Uni at the age of 40 and finished degrees while working full time and raising young families. They are now living quite comfortably but paid a price to achieve that. So that is an option you need to look at and decide which is the path you want to take. Can you do some of your uni courses part time/ by correspondence, well your current Employer subsidise part time study with paid / unpaid time off, or payment of course fees? These could all be options to look at

Where does the incentive to work come from when on a low income is an interesting question, I find it comes back to having self worth, earning your own way in life, contributing to society, all those old values that used to be taught along with what your rights are.

[Disco Dan]

Interesting Scenario’s these


The first one (person XY)reads as a Single parent deciding if it is best to keep working, or take a minor drop in money, and spend more time on parenting, Which is different to going on the Dole.
As someone who ended up in that very position about 7 years ago. I know that it is a hard decision to make. A lot of outside factors can influence it like, Is the child school age or pre school? can you readily get time off work when a child is sick? can you get time off during school holidays? well you get paid for the time off? Can you have any flexibility in the hours you work to accommodate your responsibilities to your child, children? How much is before/ after school care costing you? Do you have supportive Family, Friends close by that can help out with responsibilities?

In my situation I had 2 primary school age children, I chose to keep working because I had an understanding Manager who let me start and finish work at a different times to the standard ones. I was given flexibility to get time off when I needed it, and make the time up when I could. I had supportive people around me that could help out at times. Even with all the above it was still a close call to keep working as after I paid for child care, I worked out that I was working for about $20 a week more than if I was on a benefit, this was because of the costs of child care, and earning too much to get any subsidy on child care. So you really have to weigh up the time parenting verses the showing your child/children the "you work for a living choice" and decide which is the best way to go. I know that if one of my children had been pre-school age I would have gone on a benefit. I know if I hadn’t been able to negotiate for the flexibility at work I would have gone on a benefit.
The interesting thing is though if I hadn’t kept working, I wouldn’t have come across the opportunity to start my own Business, and change my financial circumstances for the better.

The Second scenario ( Person YX) Why is he making that choice: Because he/she wants to be Lazy? Because he/she can’t see a career path in their current position? Because their Current Job doesn’t, hold any interest for him? Because he can under our current social system? Because he/she believes the world owes him a living Why?

Now your question about going back to uni or not. That is your personal choice, I know people that have gone back to Uni at the age of 40 and finished degrees while working full time and raising young families. They are now living quite comfortably but paid a price to achieve that. So that is an option you need to look at and decide which is the path you want to take. Can you do some of your uni courses part time/ by correspondence, well your current Employer subsidise part time study with paid / unpaid time off, or payment of course fees? These could all be options to look at

Where does the incentive to work come from when on a low income is an interesting question, I find it comes back to having self worth, earning your own way in life, contributing to society, all those old values that used to be taught along with what your rights are.

You hit the nail there - values that are no longer taught in schools.

The second scenario has been taken from an ex client, whom admitidly was able to get various 'extras' because of a mental illness. But that person and in most cases that I have seen, was more than able and competent to work - the issue is 9/10 a motivation mixed in with a feeling that they have a right to get it because of their illness. Instead of these feelings of 'self worth' - that was stripped from them throughout the course of their path through the mental health system.

This thread is not a personal thing, I am in full time employment and looking at going back to uni at some point. How and when is yet to be decided.

[Finn]

Oh chortle chortle :apint:

...even I have a bloody job these days :rolleyes:

Yeah but your case was very deserving. I'm all for a safety net for people in genuine need put this Government has turned it into a vote catching trawling net scooping up all the bottom feeders. Hell, even I was raised on welfare because of a very sick mother.

[Beemer]

I must confess I get a bit pissed off to hear of people earning way more than me for doing sweet FA. I am self-employed so if I get sick, I can't work, plus from early December to late February I usually have very little income due to the fact most of my clients close down over Christmas. I once went to WINZ to see if they had any part-time jobs to give me a little money each week but was told I could not apply for any of them because I was not registered as unemployed. I can't legally register as unemployed as my husband is in fulltime employment so despite being pretty low on money at the time, there was nothing they could or would do to help me. Of course if I had a dodgy back and someone to sign my medical certificate or I had a couple of kids from one-night-stands, I'd be sweet! But at least I don't feel guilty for being paid to do nothing!

[speights_bud]

what do you do to be charged out at $120 a hr as a apprentice
Custom machining and Rack Generating Gears/splines from scratch for that particular rate, so basically any shape gear, spline, pulley/cam belt, Helical or straight cut, imperial or metric.

Its a specific charge out rate for this kind of work. and it can vary depending on the job, But you definatly get what you pay for. :) It's a part of business that i probably shouldn't be discussing too much on a public forum.

I've been thinking about the whole job situation over the last day or two, I go to work because i love what i do and to me thats whats rewarding, perhaps i can whinge and moan about wages but at least i've got something to look forward to . I'm Learning a trade that i'll have forever and not growing a debt or loan. So its all worth it really. The Benefit is a great idea for someone to fallback on if everything goes up in smoke, but its easily abused by some, which i highly disagree with.

[Dilligaf]

All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
[/LIST]

You may be interested to know that a lot actually has been done on this in the past year or so. Long term sickness beneficiaries have been assessed by government chosen doctors and doctors who have a high rate of beneficiary sign off have come under close scrutiny.
It is actually getting harder to be a sickness beneficiary if you are not actually sick.

[doc]

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.


Maybe you should experience what you propose, for 12 months and then coment how it felt. An afluent society should have a concience. I dont believe that all beneficeries are ripping off the system. I think it is also a misconception that its easy on the benefit for a solo parent. If they need anything Winz just gives it to them.

My disgust with people that abuse my tax money lies more with those that decide how it is spent.

[skidMark]

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*



And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

Ok, all the vouchers is sweet, mint.

But $25 discretionary money?

Mate i get $160 pw.

$120 on rent.

Leaves $40 for food. Which is easy spent.

This then leaving nothing for clothes, or nice items of any kind.

It's not a nice way to live. I have had to sell everything i bought from when last working to actually get by.

[skidMark]

Yeah, Scummy went for a toilet-cleaning job to start with, but when they turned him down, he had to settle for being a cop... Sad state of affairs.

*duck*



And that simply does not compute.

Anyway, here is Sanx's 7 point plan for turning round NZ:

To be able to vote, you must not have claimed the dole for more than one month in the past twelve.
All sickness and disability benefit entitlements to be decided on by a panel of doctors employed by the state. Getting your local GP to sign a certificate would not be acceptable.
Compulsory education or equivalent trades-based apprenticeship compulsory until the age of 18.
Dole paid via vouchers for food, bills and kids' clothing. Rent / mortgage payments paid directly to landlord / lender. $25 a week discretionary spending money. Hardship benefits available only if genuinely assessed by the provider.
No benefits other than to NZ citizens. People of residency visas or with permanent residency cannot apply. Genuine refugees classed differently; they didn't choose to come to NZ for its lifestyle.
If dole is being paid to a single person or a childless couple (unless the person or partner has a disability) then car impounded for the period you're on the dole.
After three months on the dole continually, attendance at an approved tertiary education becomes compulsory. Those failing to attend required to perform menial community service. Those refusing that are jailed.

How do you suppose they get to job interviews if on the dole? and you have impounded thier car, at a rate of which impound yards charge $400 for 28 days of storage PER vehicle, who foots the bill? the taxpayer again?

So they are relying on friends etc to take time off thier work to run them around. At which point everybody is running all thier jobless mates so much because none of them have cars. thus taking time off thier own work, with the country loosing yet more money?

[doc]

Ok, all the vouchers is sweet, mint.

But $25 discretionary money?

Mate i get $160 pw.

$120 on rent.

Leaves $40 for food. Which is easy spent.

This then leaving nothing for clothes, or nice items of any kind.

It's not a nice way to live. I have had to sell everything i bought from when last working to actually get by.

Personally I think at your age your family should be supporting you. Not the taxpayer.

[scrivy]

A person on the dole should be either proveing they are actively seeking paid employment -Ie prove they are attending say 3 job interviews a week for the first three months OR they should have to WORK for their dole money sorta like the PD crews. Out in woodhill marking out cycle track or painting schools or clearing drains.

Frosty - they do go out and look for jobs.
I get lots coming into my shops wearing ripped clothing, pissed, smoking inside (even smelling of pot), and even blowing their f@cken noses on their sleeves - I kid you not!! They ask "You'se fellas got any jobs bro?"
Well, ask yourself. Even if you desperately needed someone, would you take them on??? The hell no!!
They go back to WINZ and say they've asked around - but no jobs are available. They do it deliberately!

[BIHB@0610]

Why can't the Darwin effect be targeted ......... :argh:

[carver]

ask zeroindex, he has been on the dole for a year non stop

[Sanx]

Maybe you should experience what you propose, for 12 months and then coment how it felt. An afluent society should have a concience. I dont believe that all beneficeries are ripping off the system. I think it is also a misconception that its easy on the benefit for a solo parent. If they need anything Winz just gives it to them.

My disgust with people that abuse my tax money lies more with those that decide how it is spent.

I have no intention of experiencing what I propose for twelve months, purely because I wouldn't ever let myself get into that situation. I'm an IT contractor. Between September 30th 2007 and March 3rd 2008, I was only able to find work for a period of one month; the market died,and there simply wasn't the work in my field. I spent every last cent I had saved, and if my bike hadn't been written off and the option for me to take the money hadn't been available, then I'm not entirely sure where I would have found March's rent and bills money.

So instead of sitting around on my arse, I took up a contract in Brisbane. Yes, I'm lucky that I could just up sticks and move here (albeit temporarily), but I've also had to make some sacrifices to be here.

Sure - an affluent society should have a conscience. But NZ is not that affluent. And - as whoever it was in parliament said - society's conscience should be there to provide a safety net, not a hammock. I also know a coupleof beneficiaries, who are perfectly happy ripping-off the system for as much as they can get. It disgusts me.


Ok, all the vouchers is sweet, mint.

But $25 discretionary money?

Mate i get $160 pw.

$120 on rent.

Leaves $40 for food. Which is easy spent.

This then leaving nothing for clothes, or nice items of any kind.

It's not a nice way to live. I have had to sell everything i bought from when last working to actually get by.

Under the system I proposed, you'd have everything paid for apart from luxuries. Then you'd get $25 to spend on anything else you wanted. The idea's to provide the necessities, but not enough to live a life that people would regard as comfortable. It's the safety net, with incentive to go out and work.


How do you suppose they get to job interviews if on the dole? and you have impounded thier car, at a rate of which impound yards charge $400 for 28 days of storage PER vehicle, who foots the bill? the taxpayer again?

So they are relying on friends etc to take time off thier work to run them around. At which point everybody is running all thier jobless mates so much because none of them have cars. thus taking time off thier own work, with the country loosing yet more money?

Was not suggesting that cars should be impounded for cash. They wouldn't be - the tab would be picked up by the state. Might sound like a lot of money, but there's no reason on earth why impound yards should charge $400 a week. You can get secure long-tern parking at the airport for considerably less than that, for a start, and they valet your car for you before you get back.

Essential travel and travel to job interviews would be funded. Anything else is non-essential. Walk.

[Finn]

Personally I think at your age your family should be supporting you. Not the taxpayer.

I think his parents are on the dole too.

[avgas]

Ok, all the vouchers is sweet, mint.

But $25 discretionary money?

Mate i get $160 pw.

$120 on rent.

Leaves $40 for food. Which is easy spent.

This then leaving nothing for clothes, or nice items of any kind.

Consider youself lucky, i got $150/wk "borrowed" from the gubbermint. Did that for 5 years.
I'm now paying it back.
When do you pay yours back.
To make things more fun i also worked a minimum 20 week + 40 hours study.
Last year of uni i changed it to 60+ hours work + 15 hours study. No income from anyone except myself (- student loan repayments).
I'm sorry - but cry me a river.

[avgas]

Personally I think at your age your family should be supporting you. Not the taxpayer.
Bah - he's not 8, mabey im a bit cruel but if you old enough to be your own person your old enough.
While i bitch and moan about hardships i have had - i wouldn't change it. I picked up life skills that some of my friends can't imagine. For no other reason other than I had it hard and they had it soft.
How can you experience success if you have always had it spoon fed to you?
I'm even gonna make my kids do the bloody dishes - even if I have wait (and do them myself) until they are old enough.

[avgas]

or your standards are too high. :calm:
I have only been unemployed for 3 weeks when i broke my leg (ACC)........at that time i lost my job (i was only temp so easily replaced), and basically the day i could walk was the day i had my first interview.
Therefore i can not comment on how hard it is to find a job after being on the dole. I do not need to comment of the supply of jobs - the fact that there are 3 job websites in NZ with enough work to be non-govt supported, and about 2 dozen recruitment agencies seems enough for me not to comment.

[mstriumph]

in west aus the jobs are chasing the people .... :cool:

[speights_bud]

in west aus the jobs are chasing the people .... :cool:
yEp... $32 H/r STARTING rate for one of the guys who left work last year and jumped the Gap, he was only 2 years out of his apprenticeship aswell.

[mstriumph]

Interesting Scenario’s these


The first one (person XY)reads as a Single parent deciding if it is best to keep working, or take a minor drop in money, and spend more time on parenting, Which is different to going on the Dole.
As someone who ended up in that very position about 7 years ago. I know that it is a hard decision to make. A lot of outside factors can influence it like, Is the child school age or pre school? can you readily get time off work when a child is sick? can you get time off during school holidays? well you get paid for the time off? Can you have any flexibility in the hours you work to accommodate your responsibilities to your child, children? How much is before/ after school care costing you? Do you have supportive Family, Friends close by that can help out with responsibilities?

In my situation I had 2 primary school age children, I chose to keep working because I had an understanding Manager who let me start and finish work at a different times to the standard ones. I was given flexibility to get time off when I needed it, and make the time up when I could. I had supportive people around me that could help out at times. Even with all the above it was still a close call to keep working as after I paid for child care, I worked out that I was working for about $20 a week more than if I was on a benefit, this was because of the costs of child care, and earning too much to get any subsidy on child care. So you really have to weigh up the time parenting verses the showing your child/children the "you work for a living choice" and decide which is the best way to go. I know that if one of my children had been pre-school age I would have gone on a benefit. I know if I hadn’t been able to negotiate for the flexibility at work I would have gone on a benefit.
The interesting thing is though if I hadn’t kept working, I wouldn’t have come across the opportunity to start my own Business, and change my financial circumstances for the better.
..............

i have often thought that we could save ourselves at least some of the problems the country faces through delinquent children and teens if the government was forward-thinking enough to pay a decent wage for one parent to stay at home with children until they reached school age ...



oh look - there goes another flying pig ;)

[Mully]

i have often thought that we could save ourselves at least some of the problems the country faces through delinquent children and teens if the government was forward-thinking enough to pay a decent wage for one parent to stay at home with children until they reached school age ...


Or if people who chose to have children only did it when they can afford to survive on a single income. Rather than just pop sprogs out like it's a hobby.

[Howie]

Or if people who chose to have children only did it when they can afford to survive on a single income. Rather than just pop sprogs out like it's a hobby.

yep that would work if you can guarantee what that income is going to be for the twenty years after having said sprogs. Life changes and your income can change quite quickly at times.

[Howie]

i have often thought that we could save ourselves at least some of the problems the country faces through delinquent children and teens if the government was forward-thinking enough to pay a decent wage for one parent to stay at home with children until they reached school age ...

Yep that might help a bit, but then you still need to teach some people parenting skills as well.

[BIHB@0610]

i have often thought that we could save ourselves at least some of the problems the country faces through delinquent children and teens if the government was forward-thinking enough to pay a decent wage for one parent to stay at home with children until they reached school age ...



oh look - there goes another flying pig ;)

I agree that some parents should be able to stay home until their kids reach school age. Others should be separated from their children during the day as soon as possible! No statistics to back this up, but from my personal experience a lot of the delinquents I know have been raised by people who didn't work when their kids were little, and still don't. In contrast, many people who have gone back to professional careers when the kids were toddlers, are producing quite well rounded, decent, contributing members of society.

I don't think just being at home with your kids necessarily guarantees a good parenting outcome.

[madandy]

in west aus the jobs are chasing the people .... :cool:

Australian gummint still taxing miners at 49c in the dollar?
They were on the east coast mines in the mid '90's.
My brother in law works out west driving a Bulldozer for 120k/yr less tax. 16hrs a day, 13 on 2 off 13 on then 13 off. I earn more per hour worked here... and have a life with friends and family.
His children have forgotten what he looks, smells and sounds like.
They'll have the mortgage paid for in no time...and can spend the next few years getting to know each other again.
Horses for courses of course. A single person's dream job if ya like that environment.

[mstriumph]

Yep that might help a bit, but then you still need to teach some people parenting skills as well.


well, in the best of all possible worlds, parenting classes would be madatory for pregnant couples ....... think about it - you could award a diploma in doodoo :laugh:

[R-Soul]

I'm from Africa.

You dont work,you die.

Simple.

Society owes you NOTHING.

[R-Soul]

Frankly with the cost of childcare these days I am not sure how people can afford to not stay at home and look after the kids.

If you take into account that you need to earn enough for
-two kids that cost what $250 a week for childcare
- the fact that you need that cash after tax (so add 30%)
- the cost of parking
- the cost of fuel/transport
- the cost of the additional car or bike (insurance/reg/etc)

You would need to be earning a salary of
childcare: 52x500 = 26000
fuel/transport: 52X20 = 1040
parking: 13*20*12 = 3120

So you need around $30k just to be able to break even before you start making any profit!!

It hardly seems worth it, unless your wife is a professional?

Now if you could get her to run a business from home... it would add to the savings that you are already making...

[FROSTY]

Yep but it depends in todays society who is parenting the child--if the person on DPB $300 a week .if the person working $30/week --well thats according to the gubbiment

[Smifffy]

Awesome thread dredging skills!!!

[carver]

I'm from Africa.

You dont work,you die.

Simple.

Society owes you NOTHING.

zeroindex is a south african

been on the dole for years over here...playing wow