Self-Serving Politicians

[Clockwork]

Greetings KBers :spudwave:
My first post on this (or any) forum. Thought I'd get somthing off my chest that I doubt too many of you will disagree with! :yes:

Generally, I pay little attention to the New Years honours lists, Its not that I don't think that those awarded are worthy, at the lower end of the award scale I am certain that the recipients have donated much of their time and effort without ever a thought of such recognition. But when it comes to the highest award in the land, the award available to no more than 20 living New Zealanders, the Order of New Zealand. Who do those politicians give it to..... One of their own!

Mr Jonathan Hunt. A politician with his nose in the trough since 1966! Who managed to spend $30,000 a year on taxi fares (until they gave him an appartment in parliament) and who is being further rewarded with a nice High Commissioner's salary and accommodation to supplement his meager parliamentary pension and subsidised airfares.

These buggers certainly know how to look after themselves, don't they?

:angry2: :angry2:

[MSTRS]

That's 2 things you got right. You joined us (welcome) & we agree about pollies. On the offchance there are any polly members here - START EARNING THAT DOSH

[James Deuce]

Jonathon Hunt is one of the few that has earned both his dosh and his award.

Bashing pollies is at the same level of behaviour as people with active jobs labelling "office' workers as soft.

If you know nothing about it then don't bash until you've done it. And believe me , most people on this site have no idea how hard cabinet members and CEOs have to work to "not earn" that money you all covet. Rod Deane when he was the CEO of Telecom was up at 4:30am, into the Wellington office for an hour by 6am, onto the plane to Auckland for a daily 10am management meeting, back to Wellington, and usually got home at 10pm at night. That was his DAILY routine, not the ocassional hard day at the office. Theresa Gattung's day will be similar.

Cabinet members have similar schedules. There are some backbenchers who never step up to the ball and work, but then again there are some with only minor Govt roles who work their arses off too. Peter Dunne, whose politics I loathe, works bloody hard for his constituency. I have two friends, both small business owners, who benefitted directly from Mr Dunne's aid, acting as a negotiator and court representative on their behalf against Oil Companies. They "won" in that they avoided having to take on massive debt to meet arbitrary decisions by those companies.

By all means discuss politics, but you'd be hard pressed to find active political figures who don't have a strong work ethic, even if it is raising their party or personal profile. THAT IS STILL HARD WORK.

[Motu]

Johnathon Hunt was my MP for many years,and I may have even voted for him a few times in dispare,I don't think you will find many people in New Lynn who will bad mouth him,he's worked bloody hard in the area nearly all his political life,and I think most will say congratulations on recognition for a job well done.

[MSTRS]

I'm sure you are right (more cases than not) I wouldn't want to be an MP. I'm just spouting about the Donna Awetere types :shake:

[avgas]

Funny that i used to get up at 330 every morn to goto work on the end of a shovel only to get back home at 830 at night.
But that was a $10/hr job so mabey it wasnt as hard as a politicians work.
:killingme
Mind due seen a few good policial minds in my time, ones that actually got some stuff moving - really stoked to see the govenator got the ball rolling on a few matters, i though he would fail horribly at his job.
As for a politician getting an award, good on em - mabey he can scratch his back with it.
One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

[James Deuce]

Funny that i used to get up at 330 every morn to goto work on the end of a shovel only to get back home at 830 at night.
But that was a $10/hr job so mabey it wasnt as hard as a politicians work.
:killingme
Mind due seen a few good policial minds in my time, ones that actually got some stuff moving - really stoked to see the govenator got the ball rolling on a few matters, i though he would fail horribly at his job.
As for a politician getting an award, good on em - mabey he can scratch his back with it.
One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.


So of course you have to perpetuate the argument, because you can't come up with a comeback that would require some effort. Cie la vie.

[jrandom]

One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

Meh. Bollocks.

As a poor person who's getting richer, allow me to point out that your perception is inaccurate.

No offense meant to your good self, and I haven't met you or anything, of course, but historically I've only ever heard this from, well, losers. Nobody living in NZ has any excuse (apart from bad health) for not living in precisely the way they want to.

If you want more money, well, go do something that will convince other people to line your pockets with it. If you couldn't care less, good on you for having your priorities right.

I have no patience with people bleating that the system has done them wrong.

[Posh Tourer :P]

You cannot argue with the disparity in percentage pay increases between the workers and the CEOs or the country and the MPs.

I'm not saying the MPs don't work hard for it, but how is the pay increase justified? Is it to bring them into line with the private sector? Will they admit to it?

As for workers vs CEOs, in the US in 1950, the differential was 50(?)x and it has now increased to 281x. In europe it was 9x, it is now something I can't remember, but its over 50x.

You can't tell me CEOs work 281 times harder than their workers.

[James Deuce]

You cannot argue with the disparity in percentage pay increases between the workers and the CEOs or the country and the MPs.

I'm not saying the MPs don't work hard for it, but how is the pay increase justified? Is it to bring them into line with the private sector? Will they admit to it?

As for workers vs CEOs, in the US in 1950, the differential was 50(?)x and it has now increased to 281x. In europe it was 9x, it is now something I can't remember, but its over 50x.

You can't tell me CEOs work 281 times harder than their workers.

No, but they made the opportunities for themselves that allow them to earn that. They will have also invariably sacrificed a whole load of stuff that you and I find important to get there. More important than the pay disparity as far as I'm concerned.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Man, I've made a lot of opportunities for me to be able to start as a DoC ranger on $24,000 a year. I've sacrificed many things other people find important to be able to do so.

So what?

[James Deuce]

Man, I've made a lot of opportunities for me to be able to start as a DoC ranger on $24,000 a year. I've sacrificed many things other people find important to be able to do so.

So what?

If you're trying to wind me up it worked.

If you're deliberately misreading what I've written, then meh. There's nothing to discuss because you've decided that dialogue is unimportant and you're right irrespective of anything I say.

[jrandom]

I think our main problem here is the attempt to apply a concept of 'fairness' that doesn't take real economics into account.

The fact is that all these CEOs and wotnot have enormous amounts of ability to screw things up.

It's easy to measure the commercial value of a factory worker, even (with a bit more stretching) an R&D engineer, say, and pay them accordingly.

But a Big Boss type can make or break hundreds of millions of dollars of business depending on which way they crook their little finger when they make a call. To put it more seriously, if the person at the top doesn't drive things right, NOTHING happens. Or even worse, BAD THINGS happen.

I know this because I've seen it work both for good and for evil, from a vantage point one or two levels down.

You can't analyse CEOs (or even politicians - the appointed CEOs of nations) by metrics of 'fair'.

If you own a company, your hopes of glory, riches and success rest on the shoulders of the man or woman you entrust it to, day by day. What price assurance? What price getting proven ability to do it right? Would you hand over anything up to several whole percent of your likely annual profits to someone who came with a very high likelihood of managing your business into success and prosperity?

Don't answer 'no' until you've been a major shareholder in or chairman of the board of a large company in a high-risk industry.

And *that's* why it's silly to talk about 'fair'. There is no 'fair'. There is only the Invisible Hand of Adam Smith.

[Yokai]

IAnd *that's* why it's silly to talk about 'fair'. There is no 'fair'. There is only the Invisible Hand of Adam Smith.
/me nods vigorously.

Workers are supposed to be paid according to the general worth of their jobs. Managers / artists / creative types are supposed to be paid according to the general worth of their talent + the general worth of their jobs.
CEO's / Politicians / Partners etc. are supposed to be paid according to the amount of RISK they take, Responsibility they have, the general worth of their ability and the general worth of their jobs.

The scales may seem out of whack to a lot of people, but frankly, :whocares: I know how hard it is to do some active jobs. I also know that it would be as hard, if not harder for some very skilled active people to do my job. Hell - I wouldn't even WANT to do the CEO's job - not because I can't (cos I've messed with it before) but because I don't want the Risk or Responsibility.

{sarc} All Hail the Almighty Dollar. {/sarc}

[Motu]

No, but they made the opportunities for themselves that allow them to earn that. They will have also invariably sacrificed a whole load of stuff that you and I find important to get there. More important than the pay disparity as far as I'm concerned.

Not so much these days,but a lot of higher managment and politicions got there by birthright rather than any sacrifice on their part - good on em,I'd rather deal with the born rich than the selfmade man...they have more class....

[crashe]

Greetings KBers :spudwave:
My first post on this (or any) forum. Thought I'd get somthing off my chest that I doubt too many of you will disagree with! :yes:

Generally, I pay little attention to the New Years honours lists, Its not that I don't think that those awarded are worthy, at the lower end of the award scale I am certain that the recipients have donated much of their time and effort without ever a thought of such recognition. But when it comes to the highest award in the land, the award available to no more than 20 living New Zealanders, the Order of New Zealand. Who do those politicians give it to..... One of their own!

Mr Jonathan Hunt. A politician with his nose in the trough since 1966! Who managed to spend $30,000 a year on taxi fares (until they gave him an appartment in parliament) and who is being further rewarded with a nice High Commissioner's salary and accommodation to supplement his meager parliamentary pension and subsidised airfares.

These buggers certainly know how to look after themselves, don't they?

:angry2: :angry2:

Jonathan Hunt MP.... Taxi's - He is NOT allowed to drive at night time...His eyesight is not good for driving at night. His plane landed back in Auckland in the evening after he had spent Monday to Friday in Wellington. He is allowed to drive during the daytime. Hence Jonathan catching those taxi's home... As soon as he realised that cost was his, he put his hand up striaght away and then explained it on TV straight away.

He recently sold his farmlet as he is moving overseas this year, so he would not be able to look after his farmlet properly. That is why he has brought in the city. He donated part of his land and put on a school house on the land to the local area for many years so that all the local children would have a school there - the cost was one good bottle of wine a year was the rent to be paid. Since selling up the new owner is letting the land remain for the school.

Jonathan spent 30 something years in Parliament and achieved many things... one was the "adult adoption" law change... He brought it in as a private members bill and fought long and hard for that... He fought for many other things as well.

Every "Speaker of the House" is given that apartment within the Beehive...
It is part of the job....
In the past he had his own place that he paid for...

He made sure that the knighthood and Sir/dames etc was gotten rid of as he didnt want to have that title later on.... Yes they would have knighted him....

Jonathan will be moving to the UK around April, I think, to hold the title of High Commissioner, which is given to those that deserve that title. He has put his time in to earn that position...

Hope that clarifies the matter up for you...

[Hitcher]

And, gentle readers, in 2005 you have the Department of Labour's "pay equity" office to look forward to. A bunch of earnest public servants diligently beavering away to find out why some "professions" earn more than others and then devising cunning policies to "remedy" this state of affairs...

And some people think we have it tough here in New Zealand?

[Posh Tourer :P]

If you're trying to wind me up it worked.

If you're deliberately misreading what I've written, then meh. There's nothing to discuss because you've decided that dialogue is unimportant and you're right irrespective of anything I say.

Sorry if I sounded like I was only trying to wind you up. I was really trying to get you to clarify what the difference was between your justification and reductio ad absurdum. I think JR and Yokai have hit their respective nails on the head - top management are being paid for risk.

If you were to argue that (from what i saw in your post) that people ought to be compensated for their past efforts over many years when they finally do get into a top job, why cant the factory worker who has been with the company for 30 years get truckloads of money too. They like working there, they have given up the opportunity to earn more money and a promotion because they like the job, They are working shifts, and have given up many an opportunity to be with their kids.... Isnt this similar to your line? If not, why not?

How did I close the conversation? There was a challenge and a question. So what? That was what I wanted answered. I've written with the same intent in this post. Please don't give up so easily. I'm playing devils advocate to get a good argument going. If you convince me early on, I lose. If you can nullify every point I come up with, good, we both will have learnt something. :calm: All I'm doing is looking for some interlech-chewill conversation.....

[Posh Tourer :P]

And, gentle readers, in 2005 you have the Department of Labour's "pay equity" office to look forward to. A bunch of earnest public servants diligently beavering away to find out why some "professions" earn more than others and then devising cunning policies to "remedy" this state of affairs...

And some people think we have it tough here in New Zealand?

Why dont they just pay us all the average wage? wouldn't that make it simpler? Tis a task fraught with difficulty for any government/bureaucratic servant to decide how much a profession is worth. What about supply and demand? Will the laws have to change if we have a sudden influx of xyz profession? What is wrong with trusting the market a little and incentivising if there is a real shortage of a necessary profession?

[Clockwork]

Jim2, I applaud your generosity of spirit. I'm sure several :) politicians work long hours but they are all well paid for this (as are/were Rod Deane and Theresa Gattung).

Crashe, you've told me many things I did not know about JH and he sounds like a better than average representative but after nearly 40 years in parliament I should hope he HAS achieved something. As for Taxis, I wouldn't begrudge any employee the cost of a taxi from home to the airport regardless of their ability to drive. Lets assume that Auckland taxis charge $150 for 50 odd k's. To and from, that's $300 per week, 50 weeks a year (not that parliament sits anything like that much) and that explains $15,000....... seems we've come up bit short here. As for paying for an apartment out of his own pocket, well, if he did this (as I'm sure he has never needed to) then I'm very impressed, I don't begrudge MP's the cost of their away-from-home accommodation.

None of this changes the fact that he has been given the countries top honour simply for doing the job he was paid to do. It still stinks of self serving politicians patting themselves on the back. I'm certain many of the other recipients of the lesser awards will have sacrificed more for longer and certainly won't have had the benefit of an MP's income while doing so. :doh:

[Posh Tourer :P]

None of this changes the fact that he has been given the countries top honour simply for doing the job he was paid to do. It still stinks of self serving politicians patting themselves on the back. I'm certain many of the other recipients of the lesser awards will have sacrificed more for longer and certainly won't have had the benefit of an MP's income while doing so. :doh:

Yes, but he did his job well, and in doing so, served the country well. Thus the award.

Many of the recipients of the lesser awards had impacts on New Zealand that were less widespread, regardless of how much they worked for it. A guy who works 40hours a week for an employer and 30hours a week for the Sally Army has less impact on the country as a whole than an influential politician. (They do, however, have a greater impact on people in their local area - I'm not trying to belittle them, I'm trying to put their work in a national/global frame, which isn't comparable to the effects on people from that person directly)

[Coyote]

Wouldn't be nice if you were in charge of your own salary. One day...

[MSTRS]

Wouldn't be nice if you were in charge of your own salary. One day...
We are.....it's just the amount that we like to quibble about.

[Clockwork]

Many of the recipients of the lesser awards had impacts on New Zealand that were less widespread, regardless of how much they worked for it. A guy who works 40hours a week for an employer and 30hours a week for the Sally Army has less impact on the country as a whole than an influential politician. (They do, however, have a greater impact on people in their local area - I'm not trying to belittle them, I'm trying to put their work in a national/global frame, which isn't comparable to the effects on people from that person directly)

Surely his influence is commensurate with his position in society, (although I still question whether New Zealand as a whole has benefited that much from his political career). Personally I would like to think that these awards were given for the effort and sacrifice made by the recipient, rather than their social standing.

[crashe]

Jonathan Hunt lived out in Karikari (think thats how you spell it - its where they have the beach horse races out west)... way out in the wop wop for most of all his adult life, until now.. so it was more than 50kms to his home.
If he could he would have driven himself.... so therefore the cost of taxi's was higher.... but why not mention other MPs who even had higher taxi rides that JH did... there were other MP's before that particular year and even after his that cost much more than his....... Why wasnt it mention at the time...cos thats when Rodney Hide decided to have a go at anything Labour.... and only Labour. But what about Tuku's undergruts.... but hey its all dead and buried and time to move on... Lets begin 2005 on a postitive note.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Surely his influence is commensurate with his position in society, (although I still question whether New Zealand as a whole has benefited that much from his political career). Personally I would like to think that these awards were given for the effort and sacrifice made by the recipient, rather than their social standing.

Putting aside questions of worthiness, yes influence is commensurate with social standing. The awards are made by the state, and as such, should reflect and honour those who have benefited the state. There are plenty of people who are worthy of recognition, and have put in much effort and sacrifice, and often they don't get recognised, but are national awards the right way to reward them?

[avgas]

Meh. Bollocks.

As a poor person who's getting richer, allow me to point out that your perception is inaccurate.

No offense meant to your good self, and I haven't met you or anything, of course, but historically I've only ever heard this from, well, losers. Nobody living in NZ has any excuse (apart from bad health) for not living in precisely the way they want to.

If you want more money, well, go do something that will convince other people to line your pockets with it. If you couldn't care less, good on you for having your priorities right.

I have no patience with people bleating that the system has done them wrong.

Well said....thats why my engineering degree is just about finished....
Mind due....bad health aint much of an excuse for me either, seen a few "ACC frauds" in my time - cos of them i only got 3 weeks off work paid when i had my accident. So i went back to work with everything not fixed - gotta make the green to live.
.................Well you could alway bend the system to work for you.........

[avgas]

bring back communism...that was fair wasnt it........ :eek:

[Jamezo]

bring back communism...that was fair wasnt it........ :eek:

hmm, I like your style...

[geoffm]

Yes, but he did his job well, and in doing so, served the country well. Thus the award.


The point is - Is Hunt REALLY one of the 20 greatest living New Zealanders? I don't think so. While he may ahve deserved an award of some sort, he certainly doens't fill that criteria.
A bankbench MP earns in the top 2% of NZ income. Hunt would have been a lot higher, not to mention the very generous super scheme and free perks pollies get. He has been well rewarded for doing the job already.
Geoff

[BRIANO]

One thing i learnt in NZ is the rich will get richer, and the poor will get poorer.

It's all about choice avgas. We chose to take risks or settle for what we know. A lot of "rich" types have failed before they succeeded.

How many poor do we really have in NZ?