Singh family complaining about the police

[enigma51]

I feel for the family no person from nz or not should have to deal with a family member being killed but

Bitching about the fact that the cops took 25 min to get them?
Go to india or where ever you from and lets see how quickly the cops get to you and actually give a shit if you get shot or not.

They are pissed off with cops when its not even something the cops did lets get pissed off with the people that shot your son father or husband and not get your turbans in twist because the cops did not show up in time.

I dont like the cops tactics with speeding etc but if there is one thing NZ cops can be proud off is the fact that they always put 100% into solving serous crime and Im confident that the assholes that is responsible will get caught and punished but again not that cops fault if they only get 3 months or similiar in jail thats the pc policy's we have.

PS Rant over and yes i cant spell im not a born kiwi oooo wait neither can most so im sweeeeeeet

[firefighter]

exactly.Give our porr cops tazers at least! geez they don't even have them never mind a gun to shoot back with!

[devnull]

Forget tasers.... one of these in each car and a .45 on the belt

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-159202789.htm

[Laava]

Actually, I agree with them. They [Singhs] were in a position to know the offenders had fled and the issue was getting their family member help. I think the police have had a sensibility failure at this scene. And yes, I agree they followed procedure and probably shit themselves that they get THAT wrong and subsequently get crucified by the media. Hard job they have innit? But I would be pissed off if it was my family.

[98tls]

Got a link to there whineging?Wonder if there life in NZ is that much of a disappointment that they pack up and piss off<_<methinks not.I feel for them but if nothing else am glad they have embraced the great Kiwi tradition of whingeing.

[Ixion]

In fact, they are not bitching about the fact that the cops took 25 minutes to get there. And, they didn't take that long. Just when they got there, they didn't do anything .

They are bitching (understandably) about the fact that the cops prevented the ambos going to help him for about 50 minutes, while he lay dying (or the ambos refused to go in, the buck is merrily passing)

But what they should really be bitching about (and what gravely concerns me) is that the 111 service repeatedly lied to them

His wife repeatedly phoned asking where the ambulence was. In fact, it was parked up around the corner. For half an hour. But instead of saying "Sorry it's not coming, it's going to be quite a while", they were (reportedly) repeatedly told "it will be there any minute". So, they waited.

If they had been told the truth , they could have bundled him into a car and driven him to hospital themselves, saving about 40 minutes. Whether that 40 minutes would have made the difference between living and dying I do not know (and probably no one ever will). But it certainly must have given him a better chance.

I'd be bitching too.

Moral: If you're ever in that situation, don 't rely on either police or ambos. Get yourslef, or get whoever it is , to hospital yourself as fast as possible.

Ironically, he;'d have been a lot better off if the police had sent a taxi!.

[scumdog]

Moral: If you're ever in that situation, don 't rely on either police or ambos. Get yourslef, or get whoever it is , to hospital yourself as fast as possible.

Ironically, he;'d have been a lot better off if the police had sent a taxi!.

Yup, what Ixion sez - you've already been shot, what's a few more bullet holes and/or family members shot as long as you get out quickly?? - and oh, don't forget to get 'yourslef' out too...

EVERYBODY has 20-20 hindsight - especially on KB.


BTW: Even Duncan Taylor (a shot cop) wasn't dragged out instantly....

[98tls]

Moral: If you're ever in that situation, don 't rely on either police or ambos. Get yourslef, or get whoever it is , to hospital yourself as fast as possible.

Ironically, he;'d have been a lot better off if the police had sent a taxi!. :niceone:Proof enough that ignorance has no boundries.Unbefuckinglievable.This is the only place you would get away with rubbish like that,then again ive no doubt you are fully aware of that.

[enigma51]

Hmmm here we go with people shooting their mouth before thinking, or knowing any facts.
I cannot speak for the police response, however the ambulance was staged at an SFP (safe forward point) around the corner, 8 minutes after the 111 call from the scene. This is absolutly procedure so I dont get shot. I dont give a fuck if someone is dying, I am not risking my life or partners life just rolling into an armed holdup blindly. The ambulance was held by police until they deemed it safe for the crew to enter. Ambulance communications were relying solely on an update from the police as to when they could enter and had no idea that the offenders had decamped already. For all they knew the offenders could have been hiding in the bushes next to the ambulance!!
Would the guy have lived had the ambulance got there earlier...who knows, and we never will.
I cannot remember a time that an ambulance officer was fatally wounded in line of duty, and I would like to keep it that way. We are not equipped to deal with armed offenders amd as such rely on information from the scene via police.

I agree speedie the graveyard is full of heroes.

Dont get me wrong I do feel for the family my issue is with them and the media trying to pin in on the police and maybe the medics when its the guy that shot him that should be blamed and punished ...... eye for an eye

[enigma51]

Oooo and dont give this bullshit about the guy did it because he hungry or poor or what ever greenie bullshit is the new thing. He shot the guy after he had the money in my eyes he is piece of shit and should be flushed

[Skunk]

Im confident that the assholes that is responsible will get caught and punished
I'm pretty sure they won't be punished - but that's a human rights, legal, and parole issue. :mad:

[jahrasti]

In fact, they are not bitching about the fact that the cops took 25 minutes to get there. And, they didn't take that long. Just when they got there, they didn't do anything .

They are bitching (understandably) about the fact that the cops prevented the ambos going to help him for about 50 minutes, while he lay dying (or the ambos refused to go in, the buck is merrily passing)

But what they should really be bitching about (and what gravely concerns me) is that the 111 service repeatedly lied to them

His wife repeatedly phoned asking where the ambulence was. In fact, it was parked up around the corner. For half an hour. But instead of saying "Sorry it's not coming, it's going to be quite a while", they were (reportedly) repeatedly told "it will be there any minute". So, they waited.

If they had been told the truth , they could have bundled him into a car and driven him to hospital themselves, saving about 40 minutes. Whether that 40 minutes would have made the difference between living and dying I do not know (and probably no one ever will). But it certainly must have given him a better chance.

I'd be bitching too.

Moral: If you're ever in that situation, don 't rely on either police or ambos. Get yourslef, or get whoever it is , to hospital yourself as fast as possible.

Ironically, he;'d have been a lot better off if the police had sent a taxi!.

Sweet, so next time me and my partner bundle a 8/10ths dead woman in our car and drive her to the hospital, him keeping her alive on the way. This because we just couldn't wait for an ambulance, not because they were taking to long, but because we guininely believed she would be dead other wise. Who knows I wonder if one day she will thank us? I think not.
IXION you are a COCK and all you other Police haters please think twice before calling us,if we provide such a bad service.

[Ixion]

Yup, what Ixion sez - you've already been shot, what's a few more bullet holes and/or family members shot as long as you get out quickly?? - and oh, don't forget to get 'yourslef' out too...

EVERYBODY has 20-20 hindsight - especially on KB.


BTW: Even Duncan Taylor (a shot cop) wasn't dragged out instantly....


Bullet holes ? Well, in this case, tthere was one place that the cops could say with certainty was safe. The shop where the guy was dying. because they were talking to the people there. No gunman there . So the "safe place" could have been the shop!

[Ixion]

Sweet, so next time me and my partner bundle a 8/10ths dead woman in our car and drive her to the hospital, him keeping her alive on the way. This because we just couldn't wait for an ambulance, not because they were taking to long, but because we guininely believed she would be dead other wise. Who knows I wonder if one day she will thank us? I think not.
IXION you are a COCK and all you other Police haters please think twice before calling us,if we provide such a bad service.

Your logic is flawed. If you (police) were there , then there would be no reason why the ambos would not be.

In this case the delay was caused (as far as I can tell) by the police who refused to enter the area, and prevented the ambos from doing so either.

[jahrasti]

Your logic is flawed. If you (police) were there , then there would be no reason why the ambos would not be.

In this case the delay was caused (as far as I can tell) by the police who refused to enter the area, and prevented the ambos from doing so either.

I am not commenting on that situation as I was not there and believe the media about as much as I beleive the shit that gets spouted on here.
There are a myriad of possibilities as to why whatever hapened.
Why don't they just do what everyone else does and file a PCA?

[Brett]

Some will dissagree with me here, but I feel that people should have a right to arm themselves for instances such as this. The cops do the best job that they can with the resources they are given and the red tape that they have to climb through. But 25 mins is not exactly fast. A helluva lot can happen in 25 mins.

[Brett]

Ambos have procedures to follow. Can't blame them that they were not authorised to enter. I just wonder why the police couldn't secure the area any faster?

[enigma51]

Ambos have procedures to follow. Can't blame them that they were not authorised to enter. I just wonder why the police couldn't secure the area any faster?

Even if the cops was there in 1 min the fact still stands that the piece of shit shot and killed someone.
Thats the issue not the late cops!
Why do we tolerate that more than the cops being "late" . Am i the only one seeing a problem with this logic?

Also allowing firearms to defend our self is a good idea in theory but remeber you give the same right to all .......................... criminals included.

[MisterD]

I just wonder why the police couldn't secure the area any faster?

Because they've been so caned in the last few years by the Sisterhood and the PC brigade, that they are now so scared of making the wrong decision, that they make no decisions at all.

[MisterD]

In this case the delay was caused (as far as I can tell) by the police who refused to enter the area,

As far as I can see they just dithered about...there can only have been two scenarios:
1) Gunman still around. In which case, they knew damn well there were plenty of people in the vicinity of the shop so they should have been in there to protect them.

2) Gunman gone. In which case get in there and try to save the bloke's life...

I don't see any justification for the time spent doing nothing.

Just a question to chuck "out there"...who would rather we now had an old-school hard bastard cop like, say, Clint Rickards running South Aucks?

[tgb_novice]

Go to india or where ever you from and lets see how quickly the cops get to you and actually give a shit if you get shot or not.



So next time anyone who has any foreign ancestry has to go which ever country that they came from and test that scenario out before moaning and taking an issue with anything in this country!!

:jerry: This country will sure have a lot less issues to deal with !

And no I am not condoning their actions but if what they say is correct wouldn't it make sense to just see if there is something that can be improved for all the rest of us, if ever we face such a horrible situation ?

[spudchucka]

Bullet holes ? Well, in this case, tthere was one place that the cops could say with certainty was safe. The shop where the guy was dying. because they were talking to the people there. No gunman there . So the "safe place" could have been the shop!

If the guys willing to murder for a few bottles of grog what's to say he wasn't willing to sit just out of sight and wait for the cops to turn up so he could drop a couple of pigs while he's at it?

Get some actual experience in the behaviours of these "people" before you pass off your possible scenarios as if they were probable facts because history has taught the police worldwide that the perpetrators of offences like this one are highly unpredictable.

[Coldrider]

They profit from the sale of take away alcohol, and moan when the shit hits their premises instead of the homes where it could be consumed.

[tgb_novice]

They profit from the sale of take away alcohol, and moan when the shit hits their premises instead of the homes where it could be consumed.

Would be way better if we let the drug dealers sell them :clap:

[HenryDorsetCase]

They profit from the sale of take away alcohol, and moan when the shit hits their premises instead of the homes where it could be consumed.

what the fuck?

I mean seriously, what the fuck?

[HenryDorsetCase]

If the guys willing to murder for a few bottles of grog what's to say he wasn't willing to sit just out of sight and wait for the cops to turn up so he could drop a couple of pigs while he's at it?

Get some actual experience in the behaviours of these "people" before you pass off your possible scenarios as if they were probable facts because history has taught the police worldwide that the perpetrators of offences like this one are highly unpredictable.

I watch "The Shield" religiously so I am now an expert in gang culture and police procedure. I agree with you.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Forget tasers.... one of these in each car and a .45 on the belt

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-159202789.htm

Nah, most of the stuff they need to drop someone is close range. So shotguns and Glocks. two 9mm rounds or one 12g round will ensure compliance.

7 shot pump action pistol grip Remington (http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/premier_dealer_exclusives/model_870_folding_stock_7-shot_Extension.asp) riot gun.

One in every cop car. I would allow my tax dollars to be spent on that quite happily.

[Coldrider]

I watch "The Shield" religiously so I am now an expert in gang culture and police procedure. I agree with you.
Explains why you can't make the connection between alcohol & violence.
'Claytons' still for sale in you local liquour store ?

[98tls]

Explains why you can't make the connection between alcohol & violence.
'Claytons' still for sale in you local liquour store ? Must be a lot of shootings in pubs then.

[Coldrider]

Must be a lot of shootings in pubs then.
Yeah starts with shooting off the mouth and escalates from there.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Explains why you can't make the connection between alcohol & violence.
'Claytons' still for sale in you local liquour store ?

OK, I will explain myself. Your post seems to suggest that you see no difference between a proprietor of a (presumably) small business legally plying his trade in a competitive market, and scumbags who think it is OK to steal stuff instead of buying it, and to kill someone in the process.

I suggest to you that in fact there is no connection between the alcohol sold in this store, and the violence perpetrated upon its owner, apart from the fact that a liquor store sells (wait for it) liquor.

You, I suggest, are unable to distinguish between a business proprietor with a young family, and three scumbag killers. Nice. I hope you're OK with that because I am not. You, sir, are wrong. Wrong as can be.

As for my local liquor store? I am old enough to remember "Claytons" but never to have tried it. I only really buy Champagne in any case.

[98tls]

Yeah starts with shooting off the mouth and escalates from there. still...shooting off the mouth is likely to quiet things down for a bit.

[boomer]

Taxi.........??!!!




ps. Speedie.. just joshin

[Coldrider]

OK, I will explain myself. Your post seems to suggest that you see no difference between a proprietor of a (presumably) small business legally plying his trade in a competitive market, and scumbags who think it is OK to steal stuff instead of buying it, and to kill someone in the process.

I suggest to you that in fact there is no connection between the alcohol sold in this store, and the violence perpetrated upon its owner, apart from the fact that a liquor store sells (wait for it) liquor.

You, I suggest, are unable to distinguish between a business proprietor with a young family, and three scumbag killers. Nice. I hope you're OK with that because I am not. You, sir, are wrong. Wrong as can be.

As for my local liquor store? I am old enough to remember "Claytons" but never to have tried it. I only really buy Champagne in any case.
Alcohol does not care where it comes from, sold by legally by a nice family man or distilled by a gangster. The effect on those who consume it or require it knows no boundaries.

[scumdog]

Bullet holes ? Well, in this case, tthere was one place that the cops could say with certainty was safe. The shop where the guy was dying. because they were talking to the people there. No gunman there . So the "safe place" could have been the shop!

So the cops 'knew' the people they were talking to were inside the shop? - and that no gunman was anywhere near it?

Well then they should have bolted on into the shop then eh.

I wonder why they didn't??:blink:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Alcohol does not care where it comes from, sold by legally by a nice family man or distilled by a gangster. The effect on those who consume it or require it knows no boundaries.

you persist in misunderstanding: How is alcohol relevant to this? I bet you'd be just as self righteous an asshole if they operated a fish n chip shop huh? Oooooooh they sold fatty food so they deserved to die.

Go fuck yourself.

[MisterD]

Alcohol does not care where it comes from, sold by legally by a nice family man or distilled by a gangster. The effect on those who consume it or require it knows no boundaries.

You might find some information on the price of fish in Iceland here (http://www.randburg.com/is/fisheries/fishtrade.html)

No, I don't know what the f that has to do with it either.

[tgb_novice]

Alcohol does not care where it comes from, sold by legally by a nice family man or distilled by a gangster. The effect on those who consume it or require it knows no boundaries.

No And the governments that have allowed this to be legally sold through the ages have to be commended :Punk: and anyone who votes for next election has to be :2guns: as they have voted for a government that allows this criminal activity to continue :done:

[Manxman]

They profit from the sale of take away alcohol, and moan when the shit hits their premises instead of the homes where it could be consumed.


what the fuck?

I mean seriously, what the fuck?

Coldrider, would you like to explain exactly what you mean by your comment?

Are you in some way saying that this guy deserved to be shot, because he was selling takeaway alcohol?

[buellbabe]

Regarding the original context of this thread... I agree with the family having a bitch. The pieces of shit were long gone and despite a family member being INSIDE the shop assuring the cops of this fact the cops refused to let the ambos in.
YEP! I would bitch too. Sure there is protocol to be followed but rules are made to be broken and surely in cases like this commonsense should prevail?

BTW it happened a block away from my house. I was in that shop 3 days earlier, they didn't have the beer my mate wanted and the guy cheerfully told him that he would have the right brand the next time we visited ...

Everyone around here is in shock.

[SixPackBack]

Be interesting to see how this case pans out, when we have all the facts a rational conclusion maybe be reached........
Ponder for a moment the public's reaction if the police had sent an ambo in [our speedie?] and a gunman had taken him out!..........I guarantee the out rage would be twice as bad.
A man died folk's, but the police arrived to mop the shit up and as Enigma51 points out the gunman not the police are responsible for his death.

[Grahameeboy]

Be interesting to see how this case pans out, when we have all the facts a rational conclusion maybe be reached........
Ponder for a moment the public's reaction if the police had sent an ambo in [our speedie?] and a gunman had taken him out!..........I guarantee the out rage would be twice as bad.
A man died folk's, but the police arrived to mop the shit up and as Enigma51 points out the gunman not the police are responsible for his death.


Agreed...he could have died on the way to hospital as injuries may have been fatal. He was probably shot in the chest if standing behind a counter...

It is a shame, Family are grieving and their response is understandably an emotional one...

The only issue is that the paper said people were entering shop and someone even bought something so that needs to be looked at.

[Qkchk]

Three appearing in Manukau District Court this morning on a 'range' of affences. Two are going to charged with murder and aggravated robbery of Mr Singh and also facing a variety of firearms charges. (as quoted of newstalkzb)

More info appearing in STUFF (http://www.stuff.co.nz/4581385a10.html)

[Maki]

The police knew the perps had long gone:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=10515371

"However, family friend Sandeep Verma - who arrived minutes after the shooting - said he told 111 operators the robbers were long gone, so there was no excuse for not letting help in sooner.

"This is not acceptable. Everyone was calling cops and an ambulance from the carpark so that means no one is around," he said. "If you are still waiting for police then that means they are just abiding by the rules. They are not human beings. They just follow the rules which are on the books, that's it.""

The police did not enter because:

"Detective Inspector Jim Gallagher said police had to establish the gunman's whereabouts to ensure no one else's life was in danger.

They also had to wait for firearms to arrive so armed police could check the scene before letting anyone, including St John, into the store."

So, waiting for firearms to arrive was more important then the life of the father of three children. He is dead now, and I don't even know if the mother has been able to tell them that yet. I do know that she has no idea how she will support herself and the children in the future.

Police screwed up again, and instead of admitting it and doing something to prevent it from happening again they say they did nothing wrong. It's just not good enough.

[scumdog]

Police screwed up again, and instead of admitting it and doing something to prevent it from happening again they say they did nothing wrong. It's just not good enough.

Yup, another KBer that knows all the facts post event and what SHOULD have ben done at the time.:(

NZ Police need a data-bank of people like you that they can call on when some crisis event like this is 'going down' so they know what is the correct thing to do and precisley when to do it...

[Maki]

Yup, another KBer that knows all the facts post event and what SHOULD have ben done at the time.:(

NZ Police need a data-bank of people like you that they can call on when some crisis event like this is 'going down' so they know what is the correct thing to do and precisley when to do it...

I don't know anything, beyond the fact that this could have been handled better. I also know that the police are not interested in investigating this and how they can improve in the future. That really says it all.

If I make a mistake I try to learn from it. If the NZ police makes a mistake they try to sweep it under the carpet and make excuses.

[scumdog]

I also know that the police are not interested in investigating this and how they can improve in the future.

Is this more knowledge to add to the databank???????

Like you really KNOW this? Amazing:shit:

[Forest]

Why am I not surprised to hear that there's a connection to the Kahuis ...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10515890

[spudchucka]

I don't know anything.....

Sums it all up really.

[Maki]

Is this more knowledge to add to the databank???????

Like you really KNOW this? Amazing:shit:

This is just what the police said. They said they are not going to investigate. Are you telling me that they lied?

[enigma51]

Police screwed up again, and instead of admitting it and doing something to prevent it from happening again they say they did nothing wrong. It's just not good enough.

So what exactly would you like them to do for it to be good enough or are you one of those that just shout from the sideline.

Also if the cops screwed up what did the shooter to do ...... give them work?

[Maki]

So what exactly would you like them to do for it to be good enough or are you one of those that just shout from the sideline.

Also if the cops screwed up what did the shooter to do ...... give them work?

I already said so, but I will repeat it for your benefit. I would like them to admit that they could have done better, investigate what happened and try to learn something from it.

[Blossom]

and now they have just lost another family member. The father inlaw of the victim died after accidently being told of the shooting. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10515899
It's just an aweful situation and I really feel for this family.

[terbang]

Bitching about the fact that the cops took 25 min to get them?
Go to india or where ever you from and lets see how quickly the cops get to you and actually give a shit if you get shot or not.


Wondered how long it would be before this came up. They came from India, probably for many reasons, including the protection of a first world police force. They obviously were allowed to settle here and look like they were doing something worthwhile, set up a business and more than likely contributing to our society (taxes and so). Like most Indian immigrants, they seem to have got on with the job in a law abiding fashion and I don´t see any signs of bludging on the system. And yet yet there is a high chance that those arseholes that shot him, are locals and I´d put money on it they were on the dole and when caught will remain a burden on our society (free rent and an education at crime school).
Yup the cops have SOP´s that they have to follow and I don´t think that anyone disputes that, though perhaps they maybe erred too cautiously not allowing any human discretion. I can sure understand a family´s frustration at how long it took to get their family member, who was laid open by a gunshot, immediate medical care. I´d be bitching too and I´m a Kiwi.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yup, another KBer that knows all the facts post event and what SHOULD have ben done at the time.:(

NZ Police need a data-bank of people like you that they can call on when some crisis event like this is 'going down' so they know what is the correct thing to do and precisley when to do it...


Thats why all police vehicles and all police personnel need to be armed all the time. I don't know why we as a society are such pussies about it.

I will personally buy one of those Remington riot guns and give it to the next pleecemin I see, with a shiny bow and a complementary box of shells.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I already said so, but I will repeat it for your benefit. I would like them to admit that they could have done better, investigate what happened and try to learn something from it.

Imagine you are the scene commander: you KNOW someone has been shot and is laying there bleeding, you are TOLD that the gunmen have fled the area, you HAVE a set of SOP's to follow which ensure your troops are as safe as they can be.

What you DON'T know is whether the people who shot the guy are in the area just begging for "Suicide by cop". In the immortal words of Dennis Hopper in Speed "What do you do?"

[enigma51]

Wondered how long it would be before this came up. They came from India, probably for many reasons, including the protection of a first world police force. They obviously were allowed to settle here and look like they were doing something worthwhile, set up a business and more than likely contributing to our society (taxes and so). Like most Indian immigrants, they seem to have got on with the job in a law abiding fashion and I don´t see any signs of bludging on the system. And yet yet there is a high chance that those arseholes that shot him, are locals and I´d put money on it they were on the dole and when caught will remain a burden on our society (free rent and an education at crime school).
Yup the cops have SOP´s that they have to follow and I don´t think that anyone disputes that, though perhaps they maybe erred too cautiously not allowing any human discretion. I can sure understand a family´s frustration at how long it took to get their family member, who was laid open by a gunshot, immediate medical care. I´d be bitching too and I´m a Kiwi.

I fully agree with you I would most probably complain as well but the thing that gets me about this case is that fact that its made out like the cops are at fault for him being shot.


As a society we as Foreigners and locals should not tolerate behaviour like this. Its not just the cops job to enforce a safe enviroment for us all its every individuals job to make sure that we dont tolerate things like this and get it sorted out.

Im not saying we should go out and be vigilanties but rather than getting pissed of with the cops and making out its there fault lets help the cops and get these bastard and remove them for our society.

[tgb_novice]

So what exactly would you like them to do for it to be good enough or are you one of those that just shout from the sideline.

Also if the cops screwed up what did the shooter to do ...... give them work?


So next time anyone who has any foreign ancestry has to go which ever country that they came from and test that scenario out before moaning and taking an issue with anything in this country!!

:jerry: This country will sure have a lot less issues to deal with !

And no I am not condoning their actions but if what they say is correct wouldn't it make sense to just see if there is something that can be improved for all the rest of us, if ever we face such a horrible situation ?

Was my earlier post unclear / unreadable or something ? Did'nt that answer the question ?

[enigma51]

I already said so, but I will repeat it for your benefit. I would like them to admit that they could have done better, investigate what happened and try to learn something from it.

There is to much investigating and sitting around tables talking about shit and nothing gets implemented or fixed.

Its protocol for the cops to investigate cases and to learn from
So you havent realy come up with anything new.

[Qkchk]

Let the shop owners keep tasers for self-defence. 3 reasons why.

1. If turned around and used on the shop keeper - low chance of being killed (unlike a baseball bat/hammer etc)
2. Easy to use and not permanent but strong enough to knock an offender to the ground or to scare them off.
3. Everyone should have the right to use self defense. (Even though we do - look where it gets us.)

[tgb_novice]

I fully agree with you I would most probably complain as well but the thing that gets me about this case is that fact that its made out like the cops are at fault for him being shot.


As a society we as Foreigners and locals should not tolerate behaviour like this. Its not just the cops job to enforce a safe enviroment for us all its every individuals job to make sure that we dont tolerate things like this and get it sorted out.

Im not saying we should go out and be vigilanties but rather than getting pissed of with the cops and making out its there fault lets help the cops and get these bastard and remove them for our society.

I don't think I read a complaint about them blaming the cops for the shooting ? The thing that I read about was the response of the police not being up to to the expectation ?

[enigma51]

I don't think I read a complaint about them blaming the cops for the shooting ? The thing that I read about was the response of the police not being up to to the expectation ?

You should have seen them on the news the other night.

[tgb_novice]

Which channel ? TV1 or 3 ?

[enigma51]

TV3

Lets just say i got a bit pissed off.
He's comments was translated so could have been a case of being lost in translation but still got me pissed off.

[terbang]

Its called being a Human. I work in an extremely proceduralised environment and yet we still have to make human judgments on all situations. You cannot write a procedure for every possible scenario. If you could then you could just incorporate that into some software and let a machine do the work. Maye in the future but not just yet, so we need to train (important word there ´train´) our people to exercise sound judgment along with following SOP´s. With SOP´s being the foundation or guideline along with human competence to finaly meet a satisfactory solution. Remember if you always blindly err on the safe side, then you are always in error and when you are required to do things right, then you are out of your comfort zone. And screw ups can happen.
Maybe there was, and I hope so, an experienced and well trained head there, after evaluating all factors (including SOP), making the call to delay the medical people. Then fair enough. But if it was a blind following of an SOP whilst a guy died with criminals long gone, then a review needs to be taken.

[Qkchk]

"Police not human, says shot man's mate" (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=10515371) - NZ Herald

[HenryDorsetCase]

"Police not human, says shot man's mate" (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=10515371) - NZ Herald

Are they Robocops or Terminators?

Honestly, is that sort of gutter journalism/tabloid trash headline helping ANYONE?

I sure as hell won't be either following that link or buying their red-fed scandal rag. It would just encourage them. bastards

[HenryDorsetCase]

Its called being a Human. I work in an extremely proceduralised environment and yet we still have to make human judgments on all situations. You cannot write a procedure for every possible scenario. If you could then you could just incorporate that into some software and let a machine do the work. Maye in the future but not just yet, so we need to train (important word there ´train´) our people to exercise sound judgment along with following SOP´s. With SOP´s being the foundation or guideline along with human competence to finaly meet a satisfactory solution. Remember if you always blindly err on the safe side, then you are always in error and when you are required to do things right, then you are out of your comfort zone. And screw ups can happen.
Maybe there was, and I hope so, an experienced and well trained head there, after evaluating all factors (including SOP), making the call to delay the medical people. Then fair enough. But if it was a blind following of an SOP whilst a guy died with criminals long gone, then a review needs to be taken.

if you can just decide not to follow it, then its not a "Standard operating protocol" is it?

[tgb_novice]

TV3

Lets just say i got a bit pissed off.
He's comments was translated so could have been a case of being lost in translation but still got me pissed off.


"Police not human, says shot man's mate" (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=124&objectid=10515371) - NZ Herald

I cant comment on the TV3 news as I did not see that ? But in the link to the herald IMO they are referring to the response time of the police not that they were the cause of the shooting . :calm:

[Qkchk]

I sure as hell won't be either following that link or buying their red-fed scandal rag. It would just encourage them. bastards

Anything to get the general public to buy their paper. We had a similar brush with the media over that guy who was dumped into the back of one of our rubbish trucks. Amazing how well the media turn the story around to increase sales.

[Maki]

At the very least the people who were with him while he was dieing on the floor of that liquor store should have been told the truth, and not lied to and told that the ambulance "was just one minute away".

His chances of survival would have been a lot greater if they had just driven him off to the hospital themselves, instead of waiting for the ambulance.

The government are responsible for providing this service, police and response to 111 calls. They failed, they should admit it and take responsibility. That means identifying what went wrong, preventing it from happening again, and taking care of the widow and her three children.

Will they take responsibility? Not a chance, it's election year you know...

[terbang]

if you can just decide not to follow it, then its not a "Standard operating protocol" is it?
Not that simple.
There is a procedure and there is a practise. Under most scenarios the procedure and the practise are the same. Any variance between the procedure and the practise (you can call it a ´Delta´) is likely to be the result of lack of understanding of the SOP (more training req), a hazardous attitude (corrective training required) or the procedure just doesn´t fit the situation. In the latter case it is well trained and qualified personnel that will use a ´delta´ to a satisfactory outcome while also providing valuable feedback to develop the system.

[Ixion]

WRONG it was 20 minutes, and we never refuse to go in, when asked by police.


Cant speak for comms, but if the Singhs make an official complaint the tapes will be reviewed and appropriate action taken if necassary.


Thats just silly, I'm sure if it was your family you would be phoning the cops and us pretty quick.

And that is just offensive to the years of hard work, study, training and bullshit I go through to help people in need.

In matters of life and death, the only thing that counts is results . The result for Mr Singh is that he's dead. Doesn't get worse than that.

Would he have been better off in a taxi (or, practically, his family taking him to hospital by car)?

Published times show the 11 call for an ambulance at 9:07. Ambulance finally tok him off at 9:52. Another 15 minutes to Middlemore, that's an hour.

He was walking around in the early stages (bleeding internally), so getting him into a car would not have been a problem. 20 minutes max manurewa to Middlemore. So, 20 minutes versus an hour. I know which I'd choose for myself.

But he didn't have the chance to choose, because comms didn't tell those with him the truth. They knew the ambulance was laagerd up round the corner. But they kept telling the callers that it would be "any minute". If they'd known the reality, that it would be an hour maybe they'd have taken their own initiative, maybe not. Their call. But the lies meant they never were in a position to assess the situation. If it were me, I'd be as mad as a very mad thing. Not at the delay, but at the lies. Yeah, I know, don't tell me, lying to the public is probably part of the "procedures".



Sweet, so next time me and my partner bundle a 8/10ths dead woman in our car and drive her to the hospital, him keeping her alive on the way. This because we just couldn't wait for an ambulance, not because they were taking to long, but because we guininely believed she would be dead other wise. Who knows I wonder if one day she will thank us? I think not.
IXION you are a COCK and all you other Police haters please think twice before calling us,if we provide such a bad service.


And I can remember when such a thing would have been a normal expectation. In fact the first time I ever travelled at 100mph was on such an emergency dash (my father was driving, not me).

Back in the day, when there was an emergency , people realised that it was down to them to deal with it . So, they sorted it, whatever it was. Now we all have cell phones and people call the emergency services and sit back and wait.

Over a longish life I've never had any occasion where the police were any help to me. Called them a few times when I needed help, never to any avail, had more occasions when I could have used some help, but didn't bother because I knew it would be pointless.So, I sorted it myself.

The notion that the police are there to help people is one of those myths we tell children, like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. It's bollocks. The police are an enforcement force , not Santa's Little Helpers. Their job is to arrest people and lock them up, or give them tickets. Helping people doesn't come into it. If they can't arrest you or give you a ticket, they won't be interested in you . And a wise man will deem that the less he has to do with them the better.

I shouldn't think for a moment that helping Mr Singh crossed the mind of the Cop-In-Charge. There was no place for him in the procedures.

The zambucks and trumpingtons are more into helping people, but, as this instance shows, you can't rely on them. End of the day, it's still down to you. Call them in if possible, they have better resources: but if they don't front, it's still down to you to sort it.



if you can just decide not to follow it, then its not a "Standard operating protocol" is it?



What you DON'T know is whether the people who shot the guy are in the area just begging for "Suicide by cop". In the immortal words of Dennis Hopper in Speed "What do you do?"


A common misapprehension. I worked as QA Manager in a very SOP intensive industry. A SOP is a Standard Operating Procedure. It does not remove the ability of a person with appropriate authority to deviate from it if circumstances require. That's why it is called "Standard". The requirement is that the person so doing should know what the standard procedure is, and have a logical and thought through reason why deviation is neccessary.

And "what do you do"? You demonstrate why you are a field commander. By applying your judgement and discretion. What is the point of having a senior officer present if all he is going to do is play a mindless automaton reading a SOP ?

EDIT: In fairness it should be noted that about 10 minutes of the ambo time was maybe spent stabilising Mr Singh.

[enigma51]

That means identifying what went wrong, preventing it from happening again, and taking care of the widow and her three children.


So you saying the tax payers should now pay for the familys well being?


RIIIIIIGHT

How about they make the guy who shot him there slave for life .....that sounds like justice to me

[spudchucka]

Thats why all police vehicles and all police personnel need to be armed all the time. I don't know why we as a society are such pussies about it.

When the country decides that good parents can't use any form of physical force to discipline their children why would that same society accept armed police patrolling their streets? New Zealand may have been a utopia once but not any more, except in the minds of the flowery freaks that make the rules.

[Winston001]

Because they've (Police) been so caned in the last few years by the Sisterhood and the PC brigade, that they are now so scared of making the wrong decision, that they make no decisions at all.

Exactly. The police are under so much pressure to get it right 100% of the time that they are frozen by systems, protocols, and procedures. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Apart from that, the delay in moving this seriously wounded man looks like a preventable tragedy. Triage medicine focuses on the Golden Hour which is the period immediately following trauma that gives the greatest chance of successful treatment. Much of that was frittered away in this case.

[98tls]

What i still dont get is if has been stated the guy was walking around after being shot and they were so certain the shooter had left why didnt they put him in a car and get him to hospital themselves,i dont know Auckland ie distances to the hospital but i think under such circumstances that would have been the first thing i would have done,Why piss about ringing anyone why not just get on with it?

[Ixion]

Exactly my point. the reason they didn't (well, one reason anyway), was that they called the police (natural enough). And the 111 then put them through to the ambulance people (also natural enough). And the ambulance people said "stay there: an ambo will there in minutes " (normally true). So, they did. fair enough, if the ambulance arrival time had been "normal" (normally, they are on site bloody fast - only the fire brigade are faster), that would have been the right decision. They didn't know the ambulance was going to fortify up round the corner (and yes, I know that decision was the cops, not the ambos)

And when the ambo didn't front they kept ringing back. And got told "No, stay, it will only be another minute or so". Rinse, lather , repeat.

[Forest]

They profit from the sale of take away alcohol, and moan when the shit hits their premises instead of the homes where it could be consumed.

Congratulations! Your is both offensive and wrong.

[jrandom]

Congratulations! Your is both offensive and wrong.

Actually, I've sorry, but I feel I have to say this...

... he raises a valid point.

If a cannabis dealer was robbed and shot, how would the masses react?

Certainly not with the undiluted sympathy being shown to the Singh family.

Now, I still feel that Coldrider deserves some censure for using the death of an innocent man to make a point regarding the irrationality of our drug laws and society's attitudes toward recreational substances. Such an approach is horribly tactless.

But the fact remains that the principle is validly illustrated.

Alcohol does immense harm in our society, but its sale and use is normalised and accepted, and when a shopkeeper is robbed and murdered for his stock, the simple fact of someone being driven to such crime to get hold of that drug is not examined in the way that it certainly would be were any other psychoactive substance involved.

[Forest]

Actually, I've sorry, but I feel I have to say this...

... he raises a valid point.

If a cannabis dealer was robbed and shot, how would the masses react?

Certainly not with the undiluted sympathy being shown to the Singh family.

Now, I still feel that Coldrider deserves some censure for using the death of an innocent man to make a point regarding the irrationality of our drug laws and society's attitudes toward recreational substances. Such an approach is horribly tactless.

It isn't just tactless. Blaming the storekeeper for his own demise is both unhelpful and morally repugnant.

Would you hold a rape victim responsible for getting raped?


But the fact remains that the principle is validly illustrated.

Alcohol does immense harm in our society, but its sale and use is normalised and accepted, and when a shopkeeper is robbed and murdered for his stock, the simple fact of someone being driven to such crime to get hold of that drug is not examined in the way that it certainly would be were any other psychoactive substance involved.

They didn't murder the shopkeeper to get access to the grog (he was cooperating with the robbers and they could have just picked it up and walked off with it).

They murdered the shopkeeper because they had no respect for his life, or for the lives of his family members.

[Ixion]

Actually, I've sorry, but I feel I have to say this...

... he raises a valid point.

If a cannabis dealer was robbed and shot, how would the masses react?

Certainly not with the undiluted sympathy being shown to the Singh family.

Now, I still feel that Coldrider deserves some censure for using the death of an innocent man to make a point regarding the irrationality of our drug laws and society's attitudes toward recreational substances. Such an approach is horribly tactless.

But the fact remains that the principle is validly illustrated.

Alcohol does immense harm in our society, but its sale and use is normalised and accepted, and when a shopkeeper is robbed and murdered for his stock, the simple fact of someone being driven to such crime to get hold of that drug is not examined in the way that it certainly would be were any other psychoactive substance involved.

Your analogy is overstretched though.

A cannabis dealer , is engaged in an illegal activity. Those who elect to undertake such activities must needs expect less sympathy from the public.

If a cannabis dealer , following some legalising legislation, was quietly and lawfully standing in his shop, selling cannabis, and was shot down, I (and I hope the public) would be equally outraged,.

A better analogy might be the shooting of an abortion doctor (as happens in the USA).

A few people who strongly disagreed with abortion might applaud. The majority would be outraged.

Regardless of ones personal opinions about alcohol (and it could be argued that sellers of petrol cause at least as much societal havoc), it is a lawful activity.

[jrandom]

Would you hold a rape victim responsible for getting raped?

Would you hold a heroin dealer responsible for getting shot by a junkie?

Perhaps not entirely, but you would certainly not instinctively feel the same toward a dead heroin dealer as you do toward Mr Singh.

Ah, you say, but heroin is far more of a social evil than alcohol!

And thereby you shoot yourself in the foot, because you admit (as we know is the case) that alcohol is also a social evil.

And Mr Singh made his living by selling it.


They murdered the shopkeeper because they had no respect for his life...

... or was it because they were either drunk or hung over, or desperate to become so?

Now, I know I'm being slightly silly when I say that, but the point is not that Mr Singh deserved to be murdered. Of course he didn't. Nobody ever does.

The point is that we, as a society, see alcohol as somehow different from other recreational psychoactive substances, and its purveyors as somehow different from the purveyers of other such substances.

[jrandom]

illegal.. less sympathy... lawful activity.

Personally, I am outraged whenever anyone is murdered in cold blood, and I realise that my statements above constitute a reductio ad absurdum.

I was explaining and expanding on what Coldrider wrote, because Forest (and presumably others) didn't appear capable of seeing it as the stimulus toward reconsideration of their prejudices that it was intended as.

I should also point out that you, in your post there, come dangerously close to the circular logic of arguing that something is wrong because it is illegal (the fact that you speak of the reaction of the masses, rather than actually arguing for the validity thereof, saves you from a rebuttal).

[tgb_novice]

Would you hold a heroin dealer responsible for getting shot by a junkie?

Perhaps not entirely, but you would certainly not instinctively feel the same toward a dead heroin dealer as you do toward Mr Singh.

Ah, you say, but heroin is far more of a social evil than alcohol!

And thereby you shoot yourself in the foot, because you admit (as we know is the case) that alcohol is also a social evil.

And Mr Singh made his living by selling it.



... or was it because they were either drunk or hung over, or desperate to become so?

Now, I know I'm being slightly silly when I say that, but the point is not that Mr Singh deserved to be murdered. Of course he didn't. Nobody ever does.

The point is that we, as a society, see alcohol as somehow different from other recreational psychoactive substances, and its purveyors as somehow different from the purveyers of other such substances.

So my earlier statement as below would be entirely valid!!!


No And the governments that have allowed this to be legally sold through the ages have to be commended :Punk: and anyone who votes for next election has to be :2guns: as they have voted for a government that allows this criminal activity to continue :done:

[jrandom]

So my earlier statement as below would be entirely valid!!!

No, it's very silly, but it handily illustrates the schizophrenic approach of many people toward alcohol as opposed to other recreational substances.

[tgb_novice]

No, it's very silly, but it handily illustrates the schizophrenic approach of many people toward alcohol as opposed to other recreational substances.

Not any sillier than saying that because he sold alcohol, it was somehow alright to be killed.

If you / we or all the other people have a issue with alcohol, then lets start a new thread / party / government / dictatorship and stop the sale of it. Not a blame a death of an innocent person on it....

:calm:

[Forest]

Would you hold a heroin dealer responsible for getting shot by a junkie?

No I wouldn't hold the dealer responsible.



Perhaps not entirely, but you would certainly not instinctively feel the same toward a dead heroin dealer as you do toward Mr Singh.

How I would feel would depend entirely on the circumstances.



Ah, you say, but heroin is far more of a social evil than alcohol!

And thereby you shoot yourself in the foot, because you admit (as we know is the case) that alcohol is also a social evil.

And Mr Singh made his living by selling it.

Alcohol is not a social evil. The abuse of alcohol is a social evil.



... or was it because they were either drunk or hung over, or desperate to become so?

Your argument is specious.

If they were desperate for alcohol, then they could easily acquire it at a low price.

It costs almost nothing to get hammered. You can easily get three people drunk on an $18 bottle of spirits.



Now, I know I'm being slightly silly when I say that, but the point is not that Mr Singh deserved to be murdered. Of course he didn't. Nobody ever does.

The point is that we, as a society, see alcohol as somehow different from other recreational psychoactive substances, and its purveyors as somehow different from the purveyers of other such substances.

Who gives a shit about other substances? Mr Singh was selling a regulated legal product in a legal manner to consenting adults.

Mr Singh was murdered for no apparent reason. He presented no resistance to the robbers and his death provided absolutely no benefit to the scumbags that robbed his shop.

[jrandom]

For what it's worth, guys, the alcohol-analogy argument was Coldrider's, not mine. I was expanding on it because the valid point behind it was being ignored and/or misunderstood.

I don't necessarily support his statements.

I agree that a new thread on the subject would be appropriate, and that discussion of it herein is not.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The point is that we, as a society, see alcohol as somehow different from other recreational psychoactive substances, and its purveyors as somehow different from the purveyers of other such substances.

This is the nub of your argument, and you're WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Alcohol IS different from other psychoactive substances: Why? because we as a society have said "It is lawful (in certain circumstances) to sell this product to a defined section of our society"

The KEY difference is that your other psychoactive substances have been decided (by us as a society) that they are not to be sold to any person under any circumstances.

That isn't semantics big boy, that is the crux of your argument.

It is a whole different argument about whether it is reasonable or what controls to place on, the sale of other psychoactive substances. I have an opinion about that, but this thread is the incorrect place to air that view.

[98tls]

Exactly my point. the reason they didn't (well, one reason anyway), was that they called the police (natural enough). And the 111 then put them through to the ambulance people (also natural enough). And the ambulance people said "stay there: an ambo will there in minutes " (normally true). So, they did. fair enough, if the ambulance arrival time had been "normal" (normally, they are on site bloody fast - only the fire brigade are faster), that would have been the right decision. They didn't know the ambulance was going to fortify up round the corner (and yes, I know that decision was the cops, not the ambos)

And when the ambo didn't front they kept ringing back. And got told "No, stay, it will only be another minute or so". Rinse, lather , repeat. With ya,out of interest i would love to see a poll on such circumstances to see what others would have done.Personally i have no doubts in my own mind that given the circumstances (if they are what ive read on here) then calling the cops/ambos would have taken a back seat to getting the injured party to a hospital.As you say they had been told it wasnt far away but for me anyway after a few minutes of waiting and it not turning up id be out of there.

[enigma51]

Jrandom for new hitcher!

[Grahameeboy]

What i still dont get is if has been stated the guy was walking around after being shot and they were so certain the shooter had left why didnt they put him in a car and get him to hospital themselves,i dont know Auckland ie distances to the hospital but i think under such circumstances that would have been the first thing i would have done,Why piss about ringing anyone why not just get on with it?

I agree.....like that women who died due to having the power cut off....take responsibility...

No one was at fault...just sad circumstances...

[Indoo]

I Their job is to arrest people and lock them up, or give them tickets. Helping people doesn't come into it.

Yep thats right Ixion, tell me (and you clearly know the answer) how much time Police spend attending jobs which have an expectation of an arrest as opposed to simply helping someone with a problem?

I don't think I've ever met someone who quite as knowledgeable as you Ixion, I mean you seem to know absolutely everything and what should be done in every situation. It must be amazing being able to have such incredible insight from the comfort of your armchair. You must have had many careers during your extended life including obviously haven risen to high levels in both the Police and ambulance service to have given you such knowledge about what*should* be done. You even appear to have been a mind reader at some point given that you can even tell what a Police officer thought of Mr Singhs predicament.

Its kinda funny though that people like yourself who know know so much and love telling people what *should* have been done never seem to be present when something actually needs to be done.

Strange that.

[MIXONE]

I feel for the family no person from nz or not should have to deal with a family member being killed but

Bitching about the fact that the cops took 25 min to get them?
Go to india or where ever you from and lets see how quickly the cops get to you and actually give a shit if you get shot or not.

They are pissed off with cops when its not even something the cops did lets get pissed off with the people that shot your son father or husband and not get your turbans in twist because the cops did not show up in time.

I dont like the cops tactics with speeding etc but if there is one thing NZ cops can be proud off is the fact that they always put 100% into solving serous crime and Im confident that the assholes that is responsible will get caught and punished but again not that cops fault if they only get 3 months or similiar in jail thats the pc policy's we have.

PS Rant over and yes i cant spell im not a born kiwi oooo wait neither can most so im sweeeeeeet

Out of this whole thread this is the statement that pisses me off the most.What the fuck has it got to do with being an Indian?Are you going to fuck off back to Safaland anytime soon to see if things are better there?You no doubt came to NZ for a safer environment to bring up your family.Is it because they are not white?We have enough racial problems here without importing rascists to increase them.

[imdying]

If it is police policy to be as sure as they can that it's safe to enter an area that a gunman might be in, it seems reasonable that that policy has come about for a reason.

It is definitely sad that somebody died, but if the alternate is a dead policeman, I don't see a winner in that situation. Yes, people were on the phone saying it was safe to come in, and that does seem a little off, but if those people are wrong, more people could just have well died. It's a shame this man didn't have a gun of his own, and wasn't able to shoot and kill all three of these men.

Really, there's only one person to blame here, and that's the gunman. Given we have video evidence, I can see no reason why he and his mates shouldn't be the next to die.

[scracha]

Go to india or where ever you from and lets see how quickly the cops get to you and actually give a shit if you get shot or not"
What relevance or help does the above comment make for the Singh family? If I got beaten up in a pub am I be expected to smile and thank my lucky stars that it didn't happen in Glasgow but instead the Gawdzone that is eNZed?



So the cops 'knew' the people they were talking to were inside the shop? - and that no gunman was anywhere near it?

So they weighed up the remote probability of multiple people taking the time to phone them and for some unfathomable reason telling them a pack of lies versus the more realistic probability that the gunman had indeed fucked off (funny that he didn't hang around afterwards) and there was a guy dying inside?



Well then they should have bolted on into the shop then eh.

I wonder why they didn't??

Sheer stupidity I reckon.

I'm sorry, but they've every right to be angry with the cops. If one of your family members had been shot and the cops have repeatedly been told it's safe to enter then you'd be a tad annoyed if the cops prevented medical treatment.


Did I miss anything?

[Patrick]

As far as I can see they just dithered about...there can only have been two scenarios:
1) Gunman still around. In which case, they knew damn well there were plenty of people in the vicinity of the shop so they should have been in there to protect them.

2) Gunman gone. In which case get in there and try to save the bloke's life...

I don't see any justification for the time spent doing nothing.



what about number 3... And the gunman was waiting in the carpark for the cops, so he could plug a few...


Regarding the original context of this thread... I agree with the family having a bitch. The pieces of shit were long gone and despite a family member being INSIDE the shop assuring the cops of this fact the cops refused to let the ambos in.

So do I... but I also see the need to be sure they weren't waiting to kill more.


The police knew the perps had long gone:....

The police did not enter because:

"Detective Inspector Jim Gallagher said police had to establish the gunman's whereabouts to ensure no one else's life was in danger.

They also had to wait for firearms to arrive so armed police could check the scene before letting anyone, including St John, into the store."

So, waiting for firearms to arrive was more important then the life of the father of three children.

Police screwed up again, and instead of admitting it and doing something to prevent it from happening again they say they did nothing wrong. It's just not good enough.

A good post...NOT!!!! The Police did not "know" they were gone, GALLAGHER was summing it up in one sentence. They had shot one compliant shopkeeper, what would they do to an unarmed cop?

The cops lives were more important to themselves and I have no problem with that.

As for an investigation, that takes time and resourses off the street. Let them do what they do best, and that is round these arseholes up and get them off the streets.

3 down today, including the actual gunman. Only two to go. Not bad. Or is that not good enough either????

FFS..........

[Patrick]

I'm sorry, but they've every right to be angry with the cops. If one of your family members had been shot and the cops have repeatedly been told it's safe to enter then you'd be a tad annoyed if the cops prevented medical treatment.


Did I miss anything?

Yep.... the possibility that the shooter was outside, waiting... for the cops to arrive so he could be a hero in the eyes of his sack of shit mates.

[tgb_novice]

Yep.... the possibility that the shooter was outside, waiting... for the cops to arrive so he could be a hero in the eyes of his sack of shit mates.

Yup! And the possibility that the next time there is an accident or drunk driver or dangerous driver all over the road and we call *555 , they are making sure that the above said driver will not cause any harm to the officers who may decide to watch this person at a distance and ascertain their safety :Playnice:

And as usual we start a new whining thread!! "I called *555 but no one attended" whats wrong with everything!!!

[scumdog]

Yup! And the possibility that the next time there is an accident or drunk driver or dangerous driver all over the road and we call *555 , they are making sure that the above said driver will not cause any harm to the officers who may decide to watch this person at a distance and ascertain their safety :Playnice:

Kinda comment I'd expect from a person with only 17 posts....<_<

[tgb_novice]

Kinda comment I'd expect from a person with only 17 posts....<_<

Not a kind of comment I would expect from a 7570 post person <_<

[98tls]

Yup! And the possibility that the next time there is an accident or drunk driver or dangerous driver all over the road and we call *555 , they are making sure that the above said driver will not cause any harm to the officers who may decide to watch this person at a distance and ascertain their safety :Playnice:

And as usual we start a new whining thread!! "I called *555 but no one attended" whats wrong with everything!!! Imagine if the ambos had run in there and been shot/killed,there would be a huge whinge and once again it would be directed at the cops.In situations like theres no winners etc its just a sad fact of what we have become.Its surely not going to get any better but only worse.Wait until the kids from the never been kicked up the arse for misbehaving generation move out of home and get down to business,cops have some serious shit to deal with now come thursday through to sunday, in a few years it will be diabolical and with more and more pc shit being introduced all the time i for one dont envy them.

[Ixion]

Yep.... the possibility that the shooter was outside, waiting... for the cops to arrive so he could be a hero in the eyes of his sack of shit mates.

But he wasn't, was he? Sure, any number of theoretical possibilities - it could all have been a terrorist sting operation with a team of RPG carrying mujahideen hidden in wait. But, not very likely, is it? . And the job of the Officer Commanding is to weigh up those probabilities and make the best call possible.

In such matters , the only thing that counts is the result. And in this case, the result was a 'fail'. The Cop-In-Charge called it wrong.

No hidden lurking gun men. Just a dying man, who did die, and might not have if the decision had been better

Easy to say in hindsight? Of course it is. Such things always are. In hindsight even I can say what would have been best. Much much harder to get it right on the spot. But that's what the Cop-In-Charge's job is. To make those calls, without hindsight, and get them right.

Hard. Very hard. But that's why Cops-In-Charge get paid very high salaries at the public expense. And I don't. And why they get a fancy uniform with lots of gold braid. And I don't .And why they are granted a plenitude of power. And I am not.

Because they are expected to have the experience, the judgement , the discretion, and the pure gut instinct to make those hard calls on the spot and get them right. If all the Cop-In-Charge is going to do is read the SOP, what's the point of him? A 19 year old recruit could do that just as well, and save the tax payer an awful lot of money.

In this case, Cop-In-Charge called it wrong. That's not a heinous crime. Everyone gets it wrong sometimes. I would be accepting if the C-I-C came out honestly and said "OK, in this case, we could have called it better. I'm sorry if that call contributed to Mr Singh's death , but on the basis of what I knew and what my instinct said , I felt it was the right call. In hindsight, maybe not". That I can respect. It's honest, and it's the sign of a man who will learn .

What I can't accept is that Mr Singh and his family/friends were lied to. The least people in that awful position should be able to expect is complete honesty by the police. They didn't get that. And in that. the police failed unforgiveably.

[spudchucka]

Because they are expected to have the experience, the judgement , the discretion, and the pure gut instinct to make those hard calls on the spot and get them right. If all the Cop-In-Charge is going to do is read the SOP, what's the point of him? A 19 year old recruit could do that just as well, and save the tax payer an awful lot of money.Expected? But they have to log on to KB and see what Ixion says they should be doing before they make any decision.

Actually, the cop in charge's job is to make sure that the cops on the ground follow the SOPs and don't go rushing into an unsafe scene and get themselves killed. Staff safety is no less important than the safety of anyone else and it is experience that has taught the police how to respond safely to these incidents.


What I can't accept is that Mr Singh and his family/friends were lied to. The least people in that awful position should be able to expect is complete honesty by the police. They didn't get that. And in that. the police failed unforgiveably.

You're so sure they were lied to? When exactly did you get to listen to all the comms tapes and interview the staff and victims involved?

[imdying]

For what it's worth, guys, the alcohol-analogy argument was Coldrider's, not mine. I was expanding on it because the valid point behind it was being ignored and/or misunderstood.I hear you both, and it's an interesting point.

But they shot the poor bastard in cold blood :(


tell me how much time Police spend attending jobs which have an expectation of an arrest as opposed to simply helping someone with a problem?I've listened to police comms a bit whilst waiting for my wife to shop or whatever (<3 jap import stereos :D), they just go where they're asked, no expectations. IMHO of course.


Kinda comment I'd expect from a person with only 17 posts....<_<Heheheh, just the kind of comment I'd expect from a person with 7k+ posts :banana:


They shot him for no reason, they should not walk free. We have video of the, doing it, there is no question, the only acceptable conclusion now is that they have sacrificed their own lives, and must be put down (yes, exactly like one would put down an aggressive dog). There must be no mercy, these fuckers need to get the message... be a robbing scum bag if you must, that'll bite you in the arse sooner or later no doubt, but killing someone for pleasure ain't acceptable in this country.

[terbang]

They shot him for no reason, they should not walk free. We have video of the, doing it, there is no question, the only acceptable conclusion now is that they have sacrificed their own lives, and must be put down (yes, exactly like one would put down an aggressive dog). There must be no mercy, these fuckers need to get the message... be a robbing scum bag if you must, that'll bite you in the arse sooner or later no doubt, but killing someone for pleasure ain't acceptable in this country.
Never thought I´d be seen doing this, but I have to agree there. In my other country, Saudi Arabia, all three heads would be removed by now.

[RT527]

Bullet holes ? Well, in this case, tthere was one place that the cops could say with certainty was safe. The shop where the guy was dying. because they were talking to the people there. No gunman there . So the "safe place" could have been the shop!

tell me how you know that they weren't there, how could the people know in the shop or the police for that matter actually know for sure that the offenders accomplices had not re entered the shop in the hope of taking out the cops and or ambulance officers.

Im with speedie on this one...and as a firefighter that can ride in charge of a Fire appliance, I too could be and probably will be faced with a decision not to send a crew into a burning building to TRY to save someone when there is a chance that the crew may not come out too.....hard call but by the time we get to most burning houses occupants could already have been dead for up to 15 minutes.
I have been faced with the decision to not try and resuscitate an accident victim, as a member of the public while at work, as the car was too badly crumpled trapping the patient inside to the degree that no amount of cpr would have worked.
that and the broken neck and very grey looking tone of skin gave me a fairly good indication that he had SDS.....( sudden Death Syndrome).

Again the decisions i had to make that day and might possibly have to make in the future are often made in seconds and very stressful situations...ie people yelling at you crying out to you for help.

So yeah while its sad to see a Family loose their loved ones( Remember the grandfather passed away too after hearing the news) , I'm just glad there was only ONE family (including extended) loosing a loved one.

My respects to the police and the Ambulance officers that attended this terrible event.

RT527

[RT527]

I agree.....like that women who died due to having the power cut off....take responsibility...

No one was at fault...just sad circumstances...

Ah yes but what people have failed to take into account is , car prangs pole ,power goes off, women dies ......no warnings there, at least with the several warning notices they had the warnings.
And I don't believe no one was at fault.....the family need to take some form of responsibility.

Sorry for the thread jacking....mind you there is one thing here that Grahamboy says...Responsibility we as a community are responsible for todays crime etc , due to inaction to do something about our own/next door neighbors children breaking the law, usual thing, see kids taking fruit off trees for example ...most reaction is aww there just kids...so then tomorrow after they learn t that its ok to take things they steal something more substantial, slowly moving up the crime chain until its deemed the norm.
But what will we do about it, sadly nothing except say it aint my problem.....

[Indoo]

B
Hard. Very hard. But that's why Cops-In-Charge get paid very high salaries at the public expense. And I don't. And why they get a fancy uniform with lots of gold braid. And I don't .And why they are granted a plenitude of power. And I am not.

Oh man, you really do you think you know it all. Who do you think the cop in charge is in these situations? Howard Broad???.

Its usually a Senior Sergeant or failing that a Sergeant or even a Constable with some experience performing the Sergeants role. None of whom get paid much and all of whom do vast amounts of overtime for which they are paid nothing at all. And none of whom who get fancy uniforms with gold braid.


Because they are expected to have the experience, the judgement , the discretion, and the pure gut instinct to make those hard calls on the spot and get them right.

The only information he had/has is what he was told over the radio, a man has been shot, the offender was armed with a rifle, they have left the store, unknown where they are now. The might not be in the store but they could be in any of the streets you need to access to get to the store, either running on foot or exchanging their getaway car for another stolen car. What do you think a man who has just killed someone over a box of beer and is still armed with a loaded rifle is going to do to the unarmed cop he sees driving towards him down a dark street rushing into the scene of the shooting?

While he/she would love to be able to sit in his armchair the next day perusing the papers to find out from the real 'experts' what he should have done, the officer in charge doesn't have that luxury. Had he sent his unarmed staff directly into the scene and had they come across the offender in a nearby street and been killed who has to live with that decision? certainly not the armchair experts.

[Edbear]

Never thought I´d be seen doing this, but I have to agree there. In my other country, Saudi Arabia, all three heads would be removed by now.

But, but, but..! What about all the Lawyers who would dip out on their fees...?


If it is police policy to be as sure as they can that it's safe to enter an area that a gunman might be in, it seems reasonable that that policy has come about for a reason.

It is definitely sad that somebody died, but if the alternate is a dead policeman, I don't see a winner in that situation. Yes, people were on the phone saying it was safe to come in, and that does seem a little off, but if those people are wrong, more people could just have well died. It's a shame this man didn't have a gun of his own, and wasn't able to shoot and kill all three of these men.

Really, there's only one person to blame here, and that's the gunman. Given we have video evidence, I can see no reason why he and his mates shouldn't be the next to die.

Now there's a novel idea... Blame the perpetrators? How quaint...:blink:

[Ixion]

Oh man, you really do you think you know it all. Who do you think the cop in charge is in these situations? Howard Broad???.

Its usually a Senior Sergeant or failing that a Sergeant or even a Constable with some experience performing the Sergeants role. None of whom get paid much and all of whom do vast amounts of overtime for which they are paid nothing at all. And none of whom who get fancy uniforms with gold braid.



..

"Detective Inspector Jim Gallagher " is the man fronting up. Sounds pretty senior to me. And if incidents like that are being managed by constables, then the senior force needs a massive sacking. Where, then , ARE the senior officers?

So , what you are saying, is that the problem is not that a qualified and experienced officer made a bad call. But rather that the officer managing the incident didn't have the experience and qualifications required ? Doesn't really make the situation any better, does it ?

I reckon the public would be pretty interested in that , if it's true that constables 'with some experience" are being left to manage major incidents while the scrambled eggs sit , where ?

[Ixion]

You're so sure they were lied to? When exactly did you get to listen to all the comms tapes and interview the staff and victims involved?

Now , why is that whenever the police are shown in a bad light you rush in and accuse everybody in the matter of lying. Are you really accusing the Singhs and all the other people who were there of lying.

Well, yes, I guess if the whole country hates the police so much that they've entered into a giant conspiracy to lie about them .... ?

[Fatjim]

You know what, we get lots of whingers in this world, complaining about the slightest slur or insult.

Finally, someone as a legitimate beef.

[Tank]

I cannot believe how many arm chair critics there are on here.

The upshot is that it was a life and death situation.

NOBODY wanted anyone to die - all wanted to help. NOBODY was trying to shirk their jobs, leaving the guy to bleed to death.

I bet the coppers wanted the ambo guys in there as soon as they could verify that it was safe - but were not wanting to send them in where there could be a gunman.

The ambo guys wanted to get in Im sure - as soon as they knew that the gunman was gone.

The sad thing is that this all took time - and I bet all involved (with the exception of the shooter) are desperately unhappy about this.

It must be unimaginably stressful, and Im sure that everyone did their very best to help.

But here we all are only knowing what we read in the paper and so many think that they could have done better.

[scumdog]

"Detective Inspector Jim Gallagher " is the man fronting up. Sounds pretty senior to me. And if incidents like that are being managed by constables, then the senior force needs a massive sacking. Where, then , ARE the senior officers?

So , what you are saying, is that the problem is not that a qualified and experienced officer made a bad call. But rather that the officer managing the incident didn't have the experience and qualifications required ? Doesn't really make the situation any better, does it ?

I reckon the public would be pretty interested in that , if it's true that constables 'with some experience" are being left to manage major incidents while the scrambled eggs sit , where ?


\Two points:

The D.I. wasn't the johnny-on-the-spot managing the scene unless I've been misinformed.

Even 'scrambled eggs' ain't that numerous, especially 'real' one with a lot of up to daye front line experience as opposed to somebody bumped up to a shiney-bum position and given the rank to justify the salary.

[terbang]

Even 'scrambled eggs' ain't that numerous, especially 'real' one with a lot of up to daye front line experience as opposed to somebody bumped up to a shiney-bum position and given the rank to justify the salary.

Hmm yes, as I would have suspected. Imagine if we did that in Aviation, ¨oh there you go old chap, knew your father well, captain in the morning, theres a lad and don´t worry you´ll pick it up as you go¨...
There would be smoking holes all over the countryside..!
Right people in the right job works every time.

[scumdog]

Hmm yes, as I would have suspected. Imagine if we did that in Aviation, ¨oh there you go old chap, knew your father well, captain in the morning, theres a lad and don´t worry you´ll pick it up as you go¨...
There would be smoking holes all over the countryside..!
Right people in the right job works every time.


But it IS quicker and cheaper to pick up somebody from the private sector than train them and wait for them to climb the ranks.

Cheap = Best...It's the New Zealand way doncha know?:whistle:

[Indoo]

"Detective Inspector Jim Gallagher " is the man fronting up. Sounds pretty senior to me.

Err he's the man in charge of the murder investigation, you do know that the first person on the scene of incidents such as this are from the patrol group and that the investigation then gets taken over by detectives right? I'm pretty sure that should be somewhere in how to be a armchair critic 101?


And if incidents like that are being managed by constables, then the senior force needs a massive sacking. Where, then , ARE the senior officers?

At other serious incidents? like the other armed Robbery that night which the Senior Sergeant was attending when this call came in? Unfortunately criminals don't give Police a roster of when they are going to commit murders and other serious crime, Police have to cope with what staff they have rostered on. Despite the 'high' salaries and uniforms with gold braid there there is simply not enough staff to have a Senior Sergeant or above at every single serious incident that happens 24/7 across Auckland, however at a shooting like this if possible they will come free from whatever they were at to attend. Unfortunately they can't teleport themselves over from what incident they were at to take charge which is why there are delays.


So , what you are saying, is that the problem is not that a qualified and experienced officer made a bad call. But rather that the officer managing the incident didn't have the experience and qualifications required ? Doesn't really make the situation any better, does it ?

So no doubt you would complain if the Constable first on the scene took charge, handed out guns, body armour and told everyone to march in, and at the same time your complaining because this didn't happen and they waited for a Senior Sergeant to arrive on the scene and take charge?


Now , why is that whenever the police are shown in a bad light you rush in and accuse everybody in the matter of lying. Are you really accusing the Singhs and all the other people who were there of lying.

You mean kinda like how you are rushing in, clearly with no knowledge of the facts or pretty much anything and accusing the Police of lying? I'm pretty sure all he was saying was wait for the facts to come out before jumping to conclusions. Unlike some people who are making all sorts of ridiculous accusations and claims and making themselves look rather ignorant and arrogant in the process.

[spudchucka]

tell me how you know that they weren't there,

Because the media reports have said that the people in the shop who called 111 said that the baddies had left the building.

This of course means, on planet Ixion, that the baddies couldn't possibly be anywhere in the vicinity; nor could a patrol possibly come across them in their poxy little black Mazda Astina fleeing the scene; nor could the baddies have gone off to the booze barn down the road to pull the same stunt there.

[spudchucka]

Now , why is that whenever the police are shown in a bad light you rush in and accuse everybody in the matter of lying. Are you really accusing the Singhs and all the other people who were there of lying.

Well, yes, I guess if the whole country hates the police so much that they've entered into a giant conspiracy to lie about them .... ?

I didn't accuse anyone of lying, you did. I simply asked a question.

[Maki]

Because the media reports have said that the people in the shop who called 111 said that the baddies had left the building.

This of course means, on planet Ixion, that the baddies couldn't possibly be anywhere in the vicinity; nor could a patrol possibly come across them in their poxy little black Mazda Astina fleeing the scene; nor could the baddies have gone off to the booze barn down the road to pull the same stunt there.

There could always be "baddies" out there, so I guess the police should lock their doors, stay at home and shit their pants.

Clearly people need to take care of their own problems, get people who are bleeding to death to the hospital and deal with baddies themselves.

It makes you wonder what cops are good for these days... Oh yes, they are still able to harrass motorists...

[scumdog]

It makes you wonder what cops are good for these days... Oh yes, they are still able to harrass motorists...

Ain't you just lucky you'll NEVER need one eh??:rolleyes:

[spudchucka]

There could always be "baddies" out there, so I guess the police should lock their doors, stay at home and shit their pants.

Clearly people need to take care of their own problems, get people who are bleeding to death to the hospital and deal with baddies themselves.

It makes you wonder what cops are good for these days... Oh yes, they are still able to harrass motorists...

How many armed incidents have you attended mate?

What is your practical experience in dealing with armed offenders?

Or are you just another blah blah know it all armchair critic born of the great New Zealand knocking machine?

[jrandom]

What I find odd is the lack of emphasis on the fact that presumably, had the initial Police responders been armed, they would indeed have charged in to the rescue.

Armed Police putting themselves in harm's way when law-abiding citizens are threatened by armed criminals is pretty much par for the course in most jurisdictions around the world, is it not?

Now, I hope that the Tazer is approved for carry shortly, but I also hope that we can finally abandon the fantasy that our Police should go forth without the means to deal with criminals holding guns.

If the officers who turned up to that scene in the first patrol car were wearing Type III body armour instead of lightweight stabproof vests, and had Glocks on their belts and a Bushmaster in the trunk, that 25 minutes would presumably have been more like 3.

[Maki]

Ain't you just lucky you'll NEVER need one eh??:rolleyes:

I am sure I will need one some time or other. I just won't be able to count on them because they are scared of baddies.

[scumdog]

I am sure I will need one some time or other. I just won't be able to count on them because they are scared of baddies.

In that case call the baddies instead - after all, they won't be scared of the cops, will they??

[Maki]

Actually I think my local baddies would deal with any issues a lot more effectivly than some other organizations...

[scumdog]

Actually I think my local baddies would deal with any issues a lot more effectivly than some other organizations...

Of course they would...of course they would - and al would be well.:whistle:

As long as you (in their eyes) weren't one of these 'issues'.

[spudchucka]

What I find odd is the lack of emphasis on the fact that presumably, had the initial Police responders been armed, they would indeed have charged in to the rescue.

Armed Police putting themselves in harm's way when law-abiding citizens are threatened by armed criminals is pretty much par for the course in most jurisdictions around the world, is it not?

Now, I hope that the Tazer is approved for carry shortly, but I also hope that we can finally abandon the fantasy that our Police should go forth without the means to deal with criminals holding guns.

If the officers who turned up to that scene in the first patrol car were wearing Type III body armour instead of lightweight stabproof vests, and had Glocks on their belts and a Bushmaster in the trunk, that 25 minutes would presumably have been more like 3.

At least there are some that can see past the bullshit posted by Ixion, Maki and the like.

The cops as first responders to an armed incident have to arm themselves first. (Don't even bother with the "the shop keeper said they had left" argument because armed incidents will always require an armed response regardless of what anyone is saying over the phone to police comms).

If they are away from their station they have to return in order to be able to arm themselves. (Occasionally there might be arms available in a Sergeants car but this still requires rallying at a SFP in order to issue the arms).

Once at the station the cop has to remove their stab resistant body armour (SRBA) because it isn't ballistic grade. They have to remove their duty belt, (the thing that the hand cuffs etc go on) from the SRBA.

They have to adjust the duty belt to fit so that it doesn't fall off their hips because with SRBA it is designed to attach to the bottom of the SRBA and to hang relatively loosely, if they don't adjust it it won't stay up. The duty belt is a semi rigid design that is not too easy to adjust, unlike the old leather ones with a two pronged belt buckle.

They have to attach a glock holster and a bushmaster ammo pouch to the duty belt.

They have to draw the weapons, carry out safety precautions with the weapons and sign the register.

They have to uplift a set of ballistic body armour and fit it.

They have to be briefed on what has happened and formulate a plan.

Etc etc etc etc.

Is it any wonder that there are delays?

Wake up New Zealand and arm your police!

[devnull]

At least there are some that can see past the bullshit posted by Ixion, Maki and the like.

The cops as first responders to an armed incident have to arm themselves first. (Don't even bother with the "the shop keeper said they had left" argument because armed incidents will always require an armed response regardless of what anyone is saying over the phone to police comms).

If they are away from their station they have to return in order to be able to arm themselves. (Occasionally there might be arms available in a Sergeants car but this still requires rallying at a SFP in order to issue the arms).

Once at the station the cop has to remove their stab resistant body armour (SRBA) because it isn't ballistic grade. They have to remove their duty belt, (the thing that the hand cuffs etc go on) from the SRBA.

They have to adjust the duty belt to fit so that it doesn't fall off their hips because with SRBA it is designed to attach to the bottom of the SRBA and to hang relatively loosely, if they don't adjust it it won't stay up. The duty belt is a semi rigid design that is not too easy to adjust, unlike the old leather ones with a two pronged belt buckle.

They have to attach a glock holster and a bushmaster ammo pouch to the duty belt.

They have to draw the weapons, carry out safety precautions with the weapons and sign the register.

They have to uplift a set of ballistic body armour and fit it.

They have to be briefed on what has happened and formulate a plan.

Etc etc etc etc.

Is it any wonder that there are delays?

Wake up New Zealand and arm your police!

Well said!!

I'd even go one further - STOP penalising the law-abiding public.
Our politicians (not the Police), have created a climate that favours the criminal, not the victim.

The bloke that shot the machete wielder in the gun shop - why was this not dismissed as soon as it was filed?
The old guy down the line that shot out the tyres of a car of young crims - found guilty.

I don't believe in the victim mentality that the politicians are peddling.
We all have the right to defend ourselves, our family, and our property (even if the current laws say you can't)

All the above cases tell the public is that you should kill rather than maim... (and dispose of the bodies carefully)

[Edbear]

What I find odd is the lack of emphasis on the fact that presumably, had the initial Police responders been armed, they would indeed have charged in to the rescue.

Armed Police putting themselves in harm's way when law-abiding citizens are threatened by armed criminals is pretty much par for the course in most jurisdictions around the world, is it not?

Now, I hope that the Tazer is approved for carry shortly, but I also hope that we can finally abandon the fantasy that our Police should go forth without the means to deal with criminals holding guns.

If the officers who turned up to that scene in the first patrol car were wearing Type III body armour instead of lightweight stabproof vests, and had Glocks on their belts and a Bushmaster in the trunk, that 25 minutes would presumably have been more like 3.

Will you please stop being logical...!? This is KB!!!!

[Maki]

If they are away from their station they have to return in order to be able to arm themselves. (Occasionally there might be arms available in a Sergeants car but this still requires rallying at a SFP in order to issue the arms).

Once at the station the cop has to remove their stab resistant body armour (SRBA) because it isn't ballistic grade. They have to remove their duty belt, (the thing that the hand cuffs etc go on) from the SRBA.

They have to adjust the duty belt to fit so that it doesn't fall off their hips because with SRBA it is designed to attach to the bottom of the SRBA and to hang relatively loosely, if they don't adjust it it won't stay up. The duty belt is a semi rigid design that is not too easy to adjust, unlike the old leather ones with a two pronged belt buckle.

They have to attach a glock holster and a bushmaster ammo pouch to the duty belt.

They have to draw the weapons, carry out safety precautions with the weapons and sign the register.

They have to uplift a set of ballistic body armour and fit it.

They have to be briefed on what has happened and formulate a plan.

Etc etc etc etc.

Is it any wonder that there are delays?

Wake up New Zealand and arm your police!

You forgot, then they need to ask their mother for permission to go out at night.

And then they need to go to Starbucks for a donut, and then they need to take a dump, and then they need to....

Maybe, in a big city such as Auckland their should actually be cops sitting there that are READY to respond to an armed offender, especially on a Saturday night.

Having to go through all that rigmarole just jeapordizes the lives of the public further, after all people caring for bleeding gunshot victims don't have time to put on and adjust the various belts, that "if they don't adjust it it won't stay up". (Maybe all they need is a diet).

Maybe the police should be ready to do the job we need them to do....
Or maybe that's just too hard...

[jrandom]

The bloke that shot the machete wielder in the gun shop - why was this not dismissed as soon as it was filed?

Because the cops have to uphold the law, and the law currently states that you're not allowed to have a loaded firearm handy in a shop to deal with armed robbers.

All weasel words aside, that's precisely what Greg Carvell had and used, so it was difficult for the cops not to charge him with storing a firearm inappropriately.

No charges were laid in relation to the shooting itself. It was obviously justified.

Yes, that's a brain-dead contradiction in the law that should be debated, but you can't blame the cops for enforcing it.

[jrandom]

Maybe the police should be ready to do the job we need them to do...

I'm sure they'd love to be, but as spudchucka pointed out, they're not allowed to be. They have to leave their weapons at the station until something actually happens.

If you want to write to your MP and ask what can be done to change this rule, I'm sure you'll have plenty of cops backing you.

[Maki]

I'm sure they'd love to be, but as spudchucka pointed out, they're not allowed to be. They have to leave their weapons at the station until something actually happens.

If you want to write to your MP and ask what can be done to change this rule, I'm sure you'll have plenty of cops backing you.

I agree with that. If criminals can carry guns, then you have to let the cops do so as well.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9519160?source=rss

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-na-opencarry7-2008jun07,0,2806798.story

[devnull]

Because the cops have to uphold the law, and the law currently states that you're not allowed to have a loaded firearm handy in a shop to deal with armed robbers.

All weasel words aside, that's precisely what Greg Carvell had and used, so it was difficult for the cops not to charge him with storing a firearm inappropriately.

No charges were laid in relation to the shooting itself. It was obviously justified.

Yes, that's a brain-dead contradiction in the law that should be debated, but you can't blame the cops for enforcing it.

I don't blame the cops for enforcing it - hell, people get arrested for shooting offenders even in places like Texas.

I blame our farcical legal system, that required the guy to spend a fortune on lawyers when he was fully justified in doing what he did.

Unfortunately, crims won't wait patiently while you unlock the gun cabinet, dig around for some ammo, load it, then tell them to leave (nicely, of course. NZ is very PC, after all)

Good on the guy for having the means to defend himself readily available - pity there aren't a few more low-lifes getting the same treatment.

TBH, if you were running a store where there was a high risk of being robbed, possibly with weapons involved, wouldn't you want something under the counter to defend yourself with? I would, regardless of what the law says...

[scumdog]

Maybe, in a big city such as Auckland their should actually be cops sitting there that are READY to respond to an armed offender, especially on a Saturday night.

Maybe the police should be ready to do the job we need them to do....
Or maybe that's just too hard...

Mwahahahahahaha....(draws deep breath)...mwahahahaha...you are SO FUNNY!!!!

Yup, we've got so many Police we can afford to have them sitting around all armed up JUST IN CASE we have an armed incident 'somewhere' - mwahahahahaahahaahah!!!:crazy::wacko:

And yes, we COULD have the Police ready to do the job we 'need of them' (dosn't include you of course Maki) - IF NZ had a population of say 3 million or less.:whistle:!!

Google up to find out how many Police per 100,000 pop NZ has compared to equal countries...

[tgb_novice]

Ah Finally now this thread is starting to make sense, People are now constructively discussing what could be done to improve the response time of the police in future incidents of this nature , thats exactly what this should be , not a "You / Them are at fault" "No I / We are not at fault" :girlfight:thread. :calm:

:drinkup: We are getting somewhere !!! :yeah:

[Sollyboy]

Bitching about the fact that the cops took 25 min to get them?
Go to india or where ever you from and lets see how quickly the cops get to you and actually give a shit if you get shot or not.



At least in India they know the cops are as useless as ours and they can arm themselves and they do have the right to blow some robbing scum bags head off
with out fear of the cops then charging them for manslaughter , I feel really sorry for these indians , they dont cause much trouble but seem to be over represented as victims of violence .
BTW our police are truely fucken useless , I know they got mp5s ,glocks ,shottys and bullet proof vest , they should have got the fuck in there in a micro second and fucked up some lowlifes

[Patrick]

...the possibility that the next time there is an accident or drunk driver or dangerous driver all over the road and we call *555 , they are making sure that the above said driver will not cause any harm to the officers who may decide to watch this person at a distance and ascertain their safety :Playnice:

Only if he has a gun, and we are unarmed...


But he wasn't, was he?
No hidden lurking gun men. Just a dying man, who did die, and might not have if the decision had been better

Easy to say in hindsight? Of course it is.

Answered yourself here really... And again, the point was, where is the gun man... we know he isn't in the shop, but.....

The poor fella died more than a day later. If over a day didn't make a difference to his internal injuries, how was this 25 to 30 minutes going to made any difference???????????????????????????????????


tell me how you know that they weren't there/QUOTE]

A top post RT527........ See above - it is "Hindsight..." as Ixion correctly pointed out to himself....

[QUOTE=Ixion;1605273]"Detective Inspector Jim Gallagher " is the man fronting up. Sounds pretty senior to me.

Don't know who was on the scene running it, but it was not him. He is O/C murder investigation.


There could always be "baddies" out there, so I guess the police should lock their doors, stay at home and shit their pants.

Clearly people need to take care of their own problems, get people who are bleeding to death to the hospital and deal with baddies themselves.

It makes you wonder what cops are good for these days... Oh yes, they are still able to harrass motorists...

You should join and show everyone how to do it right, every time. You can even be Commissioner.

The traffic component of the Police is still only 10% at most. Motorists want to be harrassed, that is why they do stupid shit that is going to get them harassed.... like speed all the time and other dumber shite.


How many armed incidents have you attended mate?

What is your practical experience in dealing with armed offenders?

Or are you just another blah blah know it all armchair critic born of the great New Zealand knocking machine?

Nah... he is the future Commissioner. Show him respect...:rolleyes:


Maybe, in a big city such as Auckland their should actually be cops sitting there that are READY to respond to an armed offender, especially on a Saturday night.

Having to go through all that rigmarole just jeapordizes the lives of the public further, after all people caring for bleeding gunshot victims don't have time to put on and adjust the various belts, that "if they don't adjust it it won't stay up". (Maybe all they need is a diet).

Maybe the police should be ready to do the job we need them to do....
Or maybe that's just too hard...

Yes it is - because it is an "Unarmed Police Service..."

If they diet and lay off the donuts, don't ya think the belts would fall down even quicker?

[devnull]

Well said Patrick

The way things stand, especially in the cities, it seems that it's past time for wearing a sidearm as part of the uniform.

The only problem I see with that is with the current low numbers, getting enough range time to remain competent would be a bit of a problem. Not unsolvable, but still a problem, at least in the short term.

I also think that officers should be given individual choice of sidearm. A 9mm is all very nice - light, easy to handle, etc., but doesn't have the same knockdown ability as the larger calibres e.g. .45ACP

[imdying]

If over a day didn't make a difference to his internal injuries, how was this 25 to 30 minutes going to made any difference???????????????????????????????????Aren' t the first sixty minutes critical? Least that's what the doctors/ambulance guys keep telling us.

[devnull]

Aren't the first sixty minutes critical? Least that's what the doctors/ambulance guys keep telling us.

The Golden Hour - if you can get definitive treatment within that time, chances of survival are dramatically improved. It isn't a guarantee of survival - it just means you have a better chance.

Unless you've seen the PM report in this case, there's no use speculating. Some internal organs can't just be sewn back together. you don't know what internal damage was done...

[Edbear]

Well said Patrick

The way things stand, especially in the cities, it seems that it's past time for wearing a sidearm as part of the uniform.

The only problem I see with that is with the current low numbers, getting enough range time to remain competent would be a bit of a problem. Not unsolvable, but still a problem, at least in the short term.

I also think that officers should be given individual choice of sidearm. A 9mm is all very nice - light, easy to handle, etc., but doesn't have the same knockdown ability as the larger calibres e.g. .45ACP

I thought 9mm was .45...?

[devnull]

I thought 9mm was .45...?

nope, they're different...

You're probably thinking of the .40 - that's the same.

A link on the most common sizes...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

[Maki]

Google up to find out how many Police per 100,000 pop NZ has compared to equal countries...

Too few.

Seems like we are on the same page after all. The police need more support to be able to do the job we as tax payers should expect. You clearly agree that there is a problem and something needs to be done. Good on you.

[SixPackBack]

I thought 9mm was .45...?

.45=11.43mm

[SixPackBack]

nope, they're different...

You're probably thinking of the .40 - that's the same.

A link on the most common sizes...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

.40=10.16mm

[Edbear]

nope, they're different...

You're probably thinking of the .40 - that's the same.

A link on the most common sizes...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Interesting link, thanks for that.


.45=11.43mm


Quite right of course, I should have got the calculator out...

[devnull]

If you're going to shoot me, I think I'd prefer to be shot with a 9mm though :yes:

Check this out...
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp

If you're really interested in different calibres, the Speer reloaders manual gives these sizes for rounds - 9mm is .3940" or 10.01mm at it's widest and the .40S&W is .4240" or 10.77mm

[Maki]

Mwahahahahahaha....(draws deep breath)...mwahahahaha...you are SO FUNNY!!!!

Yup, we've got so many Police we can afford to have them sitting around all armed up JUST IN CASE we have an armed incident 'somewhere' - mwahahahahaahahaahah!!!:crazy::wacko:

And yes, we COULD have the Police ready to do the job we 'need of them' (dosn't include you of course Maki) - IF NZ had a population of say 3 million or less.:whistle:!!

Google up to find out how many Police per 100,000 pop NZ has compared to equal countries...

Sorry to have to tell you this, but according to the police themselves, then I am right and you are wrong, Mwuhahahahaha!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516286

"Police want armed patrols on Auckland's streets 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

"Armed response vehicles" would be manned by firearms specialists and provide a quick response to call-outs like last week's shooting of Manurewa liquor store owner Navtej Singh."

You used the emoticons showing "crazy" and "wacko" regarding my idea of having police ready. I guess you think the police are also crazy and wacko to present the same idea...

[spudchucka]

You simply misunderstand, you implied that there should be armed units sitting around ready to deploy to armed robberies. No such unit will ever be established. What we need is to accept that the police need to be routinely armed. This is the only way that we can achieve rapid response to armed incidents.

[SixPackBack]

You simply misunderstand, you implied that there should be armed units sitting around ready to deploy to armed robberies. No such unit will ever be established. What we need is to accept that the police need to be routinely armed. This is the only way that we can achieve rapid response to armed incidents.

The thought of giving any type of armament to a vindictive wanker like our local 'Ginga ninja' fills me full of dread.
Not every member of society is fit [nor allowed] to hold a fire arms licence, as police staff are pulled from this same pool it therefore follows not every member of our police force should be armed either........a steady stream of dodgy cops coming up on dangerous driving charges, rape and GBH puts enough doubt in the public's mind as to the sanity of such a proposal.

[jrandom]

I also think that officers should be given individual choice of sidearm. A 9mm is all very nice - light, easy to handle, etc., but doesn't have the same knockdown ability as the larger calibres e.g. .45ACP

Woohoo, let's have a 9mm vs .45 thread!

:clap:

Actually, I believe that the .40S&W is the most popular sidearm calibre in American police departments these days. Packs significantly more punch than the 9mm, and you can fit a lot more rounds into a pistol than you can with .45ACP. Best of both worlds.

That story on Snopes about the sergeant's tooth stopping a 9mm bullet a foot away from the muzzle is pretty amazing. To be honest, though, I'd bet that it was a dud round of some sort, cheap badly-loaded Terrr Rist (tm) ammo, who knows...

I'm pretty sure that you could test the idea with animal heads and blow holes straight through them all day with a 9mm, so I'd say the sergeant owes his life to some form of mechanical malfunction.

[spudchucka]

The thought of giving any type of armament to a vindictive wanker like our local 'Ginga ninja' fills me full of dread.
Not every member of society is fit [nor allowed] to hold a fire arms licence, as police staff are pulled from this same pool it therefore follows not every member of our police force should be armed either........a steady stream of dodgy cops coming up on dangerous driving charges, rape and GBH puts enough doubt in the public's mind as to the sanity of such a proposal.


Then you are obviously willing to accept the response times required for cops to return to base in order to uplift arms as and when required.

You can't have it both ways.

[SixPackBack]

Then you are obviously willing to accept the response times required for cops to return to base in order to uplift arms as and when required.

You can't have it both ways.

What fucken response time??..........louts terrorised the neighbour hood a couple of weeks ago wrecking letterboxes, tagging, stealing shit etc.......still waiting for the police to turn up:no:

Are you willing to give arms to officers incapable of handling the responsibility....?

[scumdog]

Sorry to have to tell you this, but according to the police themselves, then I am right and you are wrong, Mwuhahahahaha!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516286

"Police want armed patrols on Auckland's streets 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

"Armed response vehicles" would be manned by firearms specialists and provide a quick response to call-outs like last week's shooting of Manurewa liquor store owner Navtej Singh."

You used the emoticons showing "crazy" and "wacko" regarding my idea of having police ready. I guess you think the police are also crazy and wacko to present the same idea...

There's a whole world of difference to what you said here:

"Maybe, in a big city such as Auckland their should actually be cops sitting there that are READY to respond to an armed offender, especially on a Saturday night."

And what is being 'wanted' in your later post above.

To have 'AOS on wheels' would leave staffing holes in other branches, reducing police available and needed for more routine stuff, SPB will be happy with that I'd say???.

In effect what is 'wanted' is routine arming of patrols already out there, already rostered on duty. That I can see is possible,

However watch for the sandal-wearing bleeding heart human right Pollyannas screeching their heads off, especially about the Taser Xrep and the 'bean-bag' loads for the shot-guns.

And don't hold your breath for this 'armed patrol' to roll-out next week.

[slofox]

.......but if there is one thing NZ cops can be proud off is the fact that they always put 100% into solving serous crime....

Like the Arthur Alan Thomas case for example??????

[MIXONE]

Like the Arthur Alan Thomas case for example??????

That was a case of 120%.(you know a little bit extra:msn-wink:)

[alanzs]

Yeah, yea, yeah, the guys who did this will get a slap on the wrist, as they probably came from a bad family, their mums didn't hug them enough, their dads could be anyone and they were poor, they didn't get a good education, blah, blah, blah...
Look at that murderer Burton, he killed two people and still has a chance to get out on parole. WHY? Look at Tamihere, he killed a couple people and he wants to get out on parole. WHY?
The laws are too lenient on killers. They shouldn't ever be let out of jail. Let them die in their cells. Somethings are not acceptable in society, and murder is one of them. The victims who are dead will never have a second chance. JMHO.

[scumdog]

The laws are too lenient on killers. They shouldn't ever be let out of jail. Let them die in their cells. Somethings are not acceptable in society, and murder is one of them. The victims who are dead will never have a second chance. JMHO.

And those that don't want 'em to die should be paaying for their upkeep while in prison.

I for one could think of better ways for my taxes to be spent than keeping alive a useless reject from society

[tgb_novice]

Great work coppers in getting to the presumed bast@rds in such a short time :woohoo:
Credit due where it is due ah!!

Ok Summarizing , the major points we have learnt from this lengthy , sometime futile :bash: conversation is the below :-

1) Coppies are understaffed.
2) Arming them (Guns / Tasers ) is a quite a agreeable option to most .
3) Shoot them buggers when you catch them :2guns: (:shutup:)

Now who want to take this to the policy makers :eek: and make them see sense :bash:

[Ixion]

You simply misunderstand, you implied that there should be armed units sitting around ready to deploy to armed robberies. No such unit will ever be established. What we need is to accept that the police need to be routinely armed. This is the only way that we can achieve rapid response to armed incidents.


Hm. That makes me wonder if such incidents as this delay are being deliberately "arranged" to foster support for armed police. Do we really want a 19 year old Clint Rickards clone wandering around tooled up and itching to prove himself? I would fear to see great numbers of innocent people shot dead, and the cop protesting "But I was only following the SOP,and I could not be ABSOLUTELY certain that the old lady might not have a gun beneath her shawl".

But I am more interested in the statements that command of such situations is being left to constables. If true , that is a most unacceptable situation. Things have indeed come to a pretty pass when such crimes are regarded as the equal of , say, urinating in a public place.

The public pay a shit load of money for a vast number of high ranked (well, high paid, and ranking a lot more than constable, anyway) police officers. (Or managers or whatever they're calling them now - we're paying them, anyway). I certainly, (and I think Joe Q Public , that deep and incisive thinker would share my sentiment) expect those highly paid scrambled eggs to be out there where the action is, leading from the front. If all they are doing is flying desks and writing SOPs then they don't justify their existence .

Someone once said that the British Army in 1914 was "paralysed by King's Regulations (the army's SOP)". Full of generals and field officers , who were shit hot at rules and procedures, but lousy at winning battles. And way short of fighting soldiers. Seems to me that the NZ police force has gone the same way . Paralysed by SOP. This latest incident is just the outward spread of what we have already seen in road policing. Once upon a time a copper would rise through the ranks by demonstrating good sense, initiative and an ability to "get results" and "keep things quiet" on his patch . Now those attributes are unwanted and deprecated. Cops are forbidden to use initiative or discretion (of course, some will ignore the rules and do so anyway - I doubt that such cops get promotion nowadays); and results are less important than "following the book".

I shall put one of my other hats on and write To Mr Broad about the issue of constables commanding at serious crime scenes. He probably will not reply, or will offer some glib meaninglessness (I have dealt with him in the past, he is a remarkanbly stupid man), so I will also write to Mr Hawkins , who has expressed some interest in the matter. We shall see what happens.

[spudchucka]

Hm. That makes me wonder if such incidents as this are being deliberately "arranged" to foster support for armed police.

I didn't read beyond the first sentence, you're in lah lah land.

[scumdog]

Hm. That makes me wonder if such incidents as this are being deliberately "arranged" to foster support for armed police. .

Yup, we have victims volunteering to be such to add weight to the argument that we need armed police,,,pffft!

[scumdog]

I thought 9mm was .45...?

9mm = .357" (give or take)

[imdying]

I didn't read beyond the first sentence, you're in lah lah land.

QFT.... seriously Ixion, wtf? I like a good argument for the sake of it, but seriously.... wtf?

[Ixion]

For clarification: the "incident" being the delay in getting medical attention for Mr Singh.Since the police members are arguing that the delay was because they are not routinely armed.

See this mornings harold - so I'm not the only one making a connection


He denied that police were being opportunistic by revealing the plans for armed patrols while there was so much public concern and criticism of the police response to Mr Singh's killing, saying all critical incidents provided "impetus".

[devnull]

9mm = .357" (give or take)

Yep, though some .40 weapons can chamber and fire a 9mm round (was a homicide in the US where a Navy guy used a 9mm cartridge in his .40 to commit a murder. It had the ballistics people scratching their heads at first, because of the skipping of the rifling marks on the slug)

.73" has gotta be a good choice - a.k.a. 12 guage :)

I must admit, if I was a cop, I'd want to be able to use a bit more than harsh words and pepper spray.

As it stands, we don't have enough cops on the street i.e. front line as opposed to behind a desk. But the public can and should do their bit too. I wonder who knows anything about the origins of policing and a bloke called Robert Peel.

If we had some politicians with some balls, perhaps we'd get back to the way policing is mean't to work - a partnership between the Police and the public.

As it stands now though, while I wouldn't hesitate to take whatever steps I felt necessary to incapacitate an intruder, i'd think twice about reporting it, because the law favours the offender, not the victim

(NB - I'm sure Helen has balls - you can't tell me that's female - but it'll be a cold day in Hell before her or her cronies stand up for the rights of the law-abiding public)

[spudchucka]

For clarification: the "incident" being the delay in getting medical attention for Mr Singh.Since the police members are arguing that the delay was because they are not routinely armed.

See this mornings harold - so I'm not the only one making a connection

Even put into that context the notion is the product of a mind that has completely lost touch with reality.

[Ixion]

Even put into that context the notion is the product of a mind that has completely lost touch with reality.

I'm sure Police acting national operations manager Superintendent John Rivers would be interested to hear your opinion of his mental state



Mr Rivers said there was a "strong and obvious connection" [between the armed patrol proposal ]with Mr Singh's murder. Police have been criticised for rigidly following procedure in waiting 24 minutes from the 111 call until entering the shop where he lay dying.


Full text here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516286)

Though perhaps you will tell us that the Harold is making it all up again

Mind you, you may well be right about the senior plodocracy having lost touch with reality. I can agree with you on that

[Jantar]

After reading through 12 pages of discussion at cross purposes, it boils down to:

1. The ambulance staff are not permitted to advance beyond the safe point until cleared by police.

2. Police SOP is to not put officers at risk until they are sure the offenders have left the area, and only then can they clear the ambulance staff to proceed.

3. The family of the victim were told that the ambulance was only a minute away, when in fact it was still waiting to be cleared into the scene.

As far as I can see, if the family had been told the truth, and told where the ambulance was waiting, they could have taken the victim to the ambulance and saved around 20 minutes. Therefore, blame, if blame is warranted, is to the comms centre for not being truthfull.

[KiwiRat]

I didn't read beyond the first sentence, you're in lah lah land.

I think he's standing on the grassy knoll with the guys who organised 9-11.

[Robbo]

After reading through 12 pages of discussion at cross purposes, it boils down to:

1. The ambulance staff are not permitted to advance beyond the safe point until cleared by police.

2. Police SOP is to not put officers at risk until they are sure the offenders have left the area, and only then can they clear the ambulance staff to proceed.

3. The family of the victim were told that the ambulance was only a minute away, when in fact it was still waiting to be cleared into the scene.

As far as I can see, if the family had been told the truth, and told where the ambulance was waiting, they could have taken the victim to the ambulance and saved around 20 minutes. Therefore, blame, if blame is warranted, is to the comms centre for not being truthfull.


Correct on points 1 and 2 Jantar but as for number 3 the Only Blame that can be placed onto this tragic incident is against those murdering Scum that carried out this violent murder/robbery in the first place.
These mongrels should be executed as we do not need or want them living in our society and breathing our precious air.
The Services involved can only do the best they can with the information and resources that they have available to them at the time. I think that the police have done a great job in locating and arresting these Lowlife Scum in such a short time. I just hope that now our Justice System does'nt go and stuff it all up and that they get let off.
Just remember that it will be yours and my taxes that will be paying the legal aid bill for these Bastards.
:mad:

[Sollyboy]

What we need is to accept that the police need to be routinely armed. This is the only way that we can achieve rapid response to armed incidents.
Id have to agree , Id like to see more armed police ,Its only the scum who would be shot who should fear the police having guns, but we know what this country is like do gooders will complain and it wont happen . guns are ok ,tazers no thanks

[scumdog]

,tazers no thanks

Funny how the limp-wristed greenie Pollyanna human right twats seem to have that line of thought.
Dreamers.

[98tls]

Maybe this election we could vote on the death penalty thing and those that oppose it can have a portion of there weekly wage deducted to feed/house etc those that commit this sort of crime,hell if it went the other way i would gladly put in for the axe.:msn-wink:

[devnull]

Funny how the limp-wristed greenie Pollyanna human right twats seem to have that line of thought.
Dreamers.

Yep - makes you wonder what on earth they're thinking.
Way less risk than a piece of lead rushing through the offender

One thing I do disagree with is switching to Bushmasters though.

A high velocity round goes a long way if it misses, and a ricochet will go pretty far.

I would've thought they'd be handing out something like the Mossberg 590 - pump action 12 gauge, the ghost ring sights are good in low light, and less risk of ricochets.

Given that most encounters would take place at under 30 yds, it'd seem an ideal choice (and better to handle, given the limited range time officers currently get)

The spread of 00 buckshot from an unchoked barrel isn't huge at those sort of ranges, and you have a better chance of putting the target down

[KiwiRat]

Maybe this election we could vote on the death penalty thing and those that oppose it can have a portion of there weekly wage deducted to feed/house etc those that commit this sort of crime,hell if it went the other way i would gladly put in for the axe.:msn-wink:

I'm all for the gallows, chair, etc, but in the USA it's apparently cheaper to keep someone incarcerated for life(and that means life) than to execute someone.

The average 10 year appeal process must jack the cost up something chronic.

[98tls]

I'm all for the gallows, chair, etc, but in the USA it's apparently cheaper to keep someone incarcerated for life(and that means life) than to execute someone.

The average 10 year appeal process must jack the cost up something chronic. Always thought the French had the right idea,no ifs or buts just off with your head.:2thumbsup

[RT527]

Always thought the French had the right idea,no ifs or buts just off with your head.:2thumbsup

Actually the Chinese are even more efficient at it....Cause they Charge the cost of the bullet back to the offenders family and if your found guilty its straight out the back and executed.

[Robbo]

Actually the Chinese are even more efficient at it....Cause they Charge the cost of the bullet back to the offenders family and if your found guilty its straight out the back and executed.

We could sure learn a lot from the Chinese then.
:ar15:

[KiwiRat]

Actually the Chinese are even more efficient at it....Cause they Charge the cost of the bullet back to the offenders family and if your found guilty its straight out the back and executed.

That would work for me.

[98tls]

Actually the Chinese are even more efficient at it....Cause they Charge the cost of the bullet back to the offenders family and if your found guilty its straight out the back and executed. Some of them here cant even pay a power bill to keep themselves alive so what chance of paying for a bullet.

[spudchucka]

I'm sure Police acting national operations manager Superintendent John Rivers would be interested to hear your opinion of his mental state



Full text here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516286)

Though perhaps you will tell us that the Harold is making it all up again

Mind you, you may well be right about the senior plodocracy having lost touch with reality. I can agree with you on that

This notion...


For clarification: the "incident" being the delay in getting medical attention for Mr Singh

Not his.

[KiwiRat]

Some of them here cant even pay a power bill to keep themselves alive so what chance of paying for a bullet.

Ouch.:devil2:

[Robbo]

Some of them here cant even pay a power bill to keep themselves alive so what chance of paying for a bullet.

I will gladly pay for the bullet. Anyone else care to donate to this Very Worthy Cause??
We can't allow the lack of a few dollars to stand in the way of Justice can we. :rolleyes:

[Maki]

There's a whole world of difference to what you said here:

"Maybe, in a big city such as Auckland their should actually be cops sitting there that are READY to respond to an armed offender, especially on a Saturday night."

And what is being 'wanted' in your later post above.

To have 'AOS on wheels' would leave staffing holes in other branches, reducing police available and needed for more routine stuff, SPB will be happy with that I'd say???.

In effect what is 'wanted' is routine arming of patrols already out there, already rostered on duty. That I can see is possible,

However watch for the sandal-wearing bleeding heart human right Pollyannas screeching their heads off, especially about the Taser Xrep and the 'bean-bag' loads for the shot-guns.

And don't hold your breath for this 'armed patrol' to roll-out next week.

I suspect that you misunderstood on purpose, but just in case you didn't and your not as smart as I gave you credit for, then by "sitting there" I meant there and ready to react. I did not mean literally sitting on their asses in some station watching TV or something, but of course you knew that already...

[MisterD]

what about number 3... And the gunman was waiting in the carpark for the cops, so he could plug a few...


This would be the carpark that several people were making their 111 calls from on thier mobile phones?

[scumdog]

This would be the carpark that several people were making their 111 calls from on thier mobile phones?

And the cops were there, watching all these people phoning them, knowing there was no gunman/gunmen nearby??

Gee, the longer this story goes on the more I learn about the case....

[RT527]

This would be the carpark that several people were making their 111 calls from on thier mobile phones?

Ok you dont quite get it do you....lets use another way of looking at it....at an arson 95 % of the time that arsonist will actually be standing very nearby the incident....they like to watch their handy work!!!.

So theres a group of people making a phone call from the car park....at that point in time no one except the shot man had really got a good look at the offenders, so who's to say that the ones in the car park making phone calls weren't the offenders bragging to their mates about what they had just done???

[scumdog]

I suspect that you misunderstood on purpose, but just in case you didn't and your not as smart as I gave you credit for, then by "sitting there" I meant there and ready to react. I did not mean literally sitting on their asses in some station watching TV or something, but of course you knew that already...

Sittin...sitting...sitting - you said sitting.

NOT "A mobile armed rapid response team"


Sorry I did not read 'sitting' as what you really meant, I guess I'm just another dumb-arse that doesn't know what the public really mean.:Police:

[Patrick]

Aren't the first sixty minutes critical? Least that's what the doctors/ambulance guys keep telling us.

This is true... but he was fighting for life in hospital for over 24 hours with the best available medical help, some damage just can't be fixed, even if help was immediate....


Sorry to have to tell you this, but according to the police themselves, then I am right and you are wrong, Mwuhahahahaha!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516286

"Police want armed patrols on Auckland's streets 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

"Armed response vehicles" would be manned by firearms specialists and provide a quick response to call-outs like last week's shooting of Manurewa liquor store owner Navtej Singh."

Like the Pommy ones... but if we aren't allowed Tasers, then this aint going to happen, is it...??????





Hard to argue, other than the obvious.... a steady stream? A couple of prosecutions doesn't amount to a steady stream amonst a staff of 11,000 give or take...


What fucken response time??..........louts terrorised the neighbour hood a couple of weeks ago wrecking letterboxes, tagging, stealing shit etc.......still waiting for the police to turn up:no:FONT][/I]

They're still there? I would ring again then...:Pokey:


Though perhaps you will tell us that the Harold is making it all up again

Mind you, you may well be right about the senior plodocracy having lost touch with reality. I can agree with you on that

Hell no, the Harold is nothing but truth and accuracy.... we all know that!

As for point two... oh, look, is that the time?:shifty:



3. The family of the victim were told that the ambulance was only a minute away, when in fact it was still waiting to be cleared into the scene.

As far as I can see, if the family had been told the truth, and told where the ambulance was waiting, they could have taken the victim to the ambulance and saved around 20 minutes. Therefore, blame, if blame is warranted, is to the comms centre for not being truthfull.

They didn't lie - it was a minute away. Probably less, more like 30 seconds waiting for the go ahead call - so, yeah, liars!!! Seriously though....

Yeah, perhaps they should have been told that, if that was what was told, or wan't, as the case recorded on the tapes might be.... :crazy:


Its only the scum who would be shot who should fear the police having guns, but we know what this country is like do gooders will complain and it wont happen . guns are ok ,tazers no thanks

Sad but true - but Ixion has many believing that we want to go out and shoot old ladies wearing shawls.:laugh:


Maybe this election we could vote on the death penalty thing

Now there is an idea - wonder if it would work...

Hang on, I remember a referendum on harsher penalies where 95% of the vote said, "harsher penalties..." And in return, we get home detention... and murderers on bail.


This would be the carpark that several people were making their 111 calls from on thier mobile phones?

They weren't the problem... it was the potential shooter waiting in the nearby darkness, using the lights of the shops to illuminate their potential cop target...

[Patrick]

But I am more interested in the statements that command of such situations is being left to constables. If true , that is a most unacceptable situation.

So who you gonna call then.... Ghostbusters???????

We are all Constables - even the Commissioner is a Constable....:girlfight:

[tgb_novice]

Hey Guys & Girls? If any(They would have left the conversation by now :)). :calm:

Cant we just keep the conversation down to a constructive what could be done in the future to avoid situation like this and see how it can be persued further? :doh:

Fighting, Backstabbing , Self Destructing etc. is not going to help anyone :Oi: :nono:

Can we just for a moment, leave the ego's aside and have a healthy discussion ? :whistle:

(Ok let me see how many neg reps I get for this :P)

[devnull]

Sad but true - but Ixion has many believing that we want to go out and shoot old ladies wearing shawls.:laugh:


Not a silly idea - have you been supermarket shopping lately?

Grannies with trolleys are worse than cagers :laugh:

[spudchucka]

Cant we just keep the conversation down to a constructive what could be done in the future to avoid situation like this and see how it can be persued further? :doh:

You're new around here aint ya?:lol:

[tate35]

I feel for the singh family. But yeah give the cops a break. I guess in today's world people are always looking for someone to blame.

Our justice system needs to up the anti...like 25 to life...then perhaps these crims would think twice if they knew they would receive more than a mere smack on the hand.

[MisterD]

They weren't the problem... it was the potential shooter waiting in the nearby darkness, using the lights of the shops to illuminate their potential cop target...

I think someone watches too much American television....

[tgb_novice]

You're new around here aint ya?:lol:

Yes! But I can always dream ah!! :bleh:

[spudchucka]

Yes! But I can always dream ah!! :bleh:

No harm in dreaming but it can be a rude awakening once the great Kiwibiker cop bashing machine hits full throttle.

[SixPackBack]

No harm in dreaming but it can be a rude awakening once the great Kiwibiker cop bashing machine hits full throttle.

Is it really that bad spudchucka?.........many of us have fully supported the police on this issue.

[Maki]

Sittin...sitting...sitting - you said sitting.

NOT "A mobile armed rapid response team"


Sorry I did not read 'sitting' as what you really meant, I guess I'm just another dumb-arse that doesn't know what the public really mean.:Police:

So, are you telling me the officers in the mobile units will be standing, not sitting in their cars?

If you want to play a stupid game, I can beat you at that too.

I guess you really are a dumbass.

[spudchucka]

Is it really that bad spudchucka?.........many of us have fully supported the police on this issue.

I was speaking generally and referring more to past threads that he might not of had the pleasure of reading through yet.

[scumdog]

I think someone watches too much American television....

Sadly the 'gangstas' do that..
Quite on the cards for them to stand over the victims rellies in the shop and say "get on da phone and tell the pigs it's all cool in here or I'll pop a cap in yo ass"

[scumdog]

I guess you really are a dumbass.

Ain't THAT dumb - got the tax-payers paying me enough to buy two Harleys....:shifty: ....and the money still comes in each fortnight....trip to Sturgis coming up..:Punk:

[SixPackBack]

Hard to argue, other than the obvious.... a steady stream? A couple of prosecutions doesn't amount to a steady stream amonst a staff of 11,000 give or take...

They're still there? I would ring again then...:Pokey:


The point is Patrick that while the majority of the police are able to handle the awesome responsibility of being armed, there are still enough nutters within the force who are not, and some of those nutters are well up the ranks!

As for the fast police response to the recent vandalism in our local area-sending a patrol car around gives the residents confidence and respect for the police, and photographing 'tags' would take a short period of time and allow a possible future prosecution. Response and visibility seem to be vastly under rated as a powerful PR tool within the force.

[scumdog]

The trouble is SPB; you don't have enough front-line guys in NZ - especially up your way.

Our numbers of police per 100,000 of population is less than a lot of the developed world - and our front-line guys are only a part of the total number.

[Dakara]

The point is Patrick that while the majority of the police are able to handle the awesome responsibility of being armed, there are still enough nutters within the force who are not, and some of those nutters are well up the ranks!

Whilst I do agree with you, I think NZ does need to wake up and realize that Violent crimes aren't going anywhere, infact they're probably getting worse due to all the youth gangs watching too much TV (Killer Bees anyone). And unless these wastes of space have something more to fear than a slap on the wrist, or 3 square meals a day at Mt Eden, we're not going to win the battle.

I for one, wouldn't favor my chances against armed gang members with nothing but some mace and a stab vest. I remember several years ago in Whakatane (where I'm from), there was a gang stabbing at one of the local pubs, witnessed by 2 cops who were unable to do anything for fear of their own lives...

Yes, if we armed NZ Police tomorrow there would be those who would pull their gun on their own mother for doing 55kmph in a 50 zone, but perhaps a long term plan to properly recruit, train, and eventually arm NZ police is what's needed. Besides, go to Auckland International Airport, and you'll see all the Airport cops have a Glock strapped to their belt :niceone:

[Edbear]

Sadly the 'gangstas' do that..
Quite on the cards for them to stand over the victims rellies in the shop and say "get on da phone and tell the pigs it's all cool in here or I'll pop a cap in yo ass"

Wahhh!!?? Surely you're not suggesting that NZ crims and gangs watch US TV and model themselves on US gangs..????!!!!:gob:


Whilst I do agree with you, I think NZ does need to wake up and realize that Violent crimes aren't going anywhere, infact they're probably getting worse due to all the youth gangs watching too much TV (Killer Bees anyone). And unless these wastes of space have something more to fear than a slap on the wrist, or 3 square meals a day at Mt Eden, we're not going to win the battle.

I for one, wouldn't favor my chances against armed gang members with nothing but some mace and a stab vest. I remember several years ago in Whakatane (where I'm from), there was a gang stabbing at one of the local pubs, witnessed by 2 cops who were unable to do anything for fear of their own lives...

Yes, if we armed NZ Police tomorrow there would be those who would pull their gun on their own mother for doing 55kmph in a 50 zone, but perhaps a long term plan to properly recruit, train, and eventually arm NZ police is what's needed. Besides, go to Auckland International Airport, and you'll see all the Airport cops have a Glock strapped to their belt :niceone:

Good post!

[enigma51]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4585645a10.html

Personally I wish them all the best with this. Hopefully it forces people in the position to change things to get real about armed response.

I dont think puting a armed repsonse on the ground is going to make any big difference i personally think its the community that should stamp out crime.

Time people take responsiblity for there comunity they reside in. If your neighbour is a criminal dob him in.

And for the goverment ...... give the police more power and time to deal with it rather than sitting in trees and behind bushes catching people speeding.

Even better make a quata system for the crims just like you "dont" have for the road

[trustme]

Before undertaking each task do the police undertake a written job safety analysis, do they attempt to eliminate risk, have they ensured that they have taken all practicable steps to ensure the safety of all parties at the scene, everyone else lives in fear of OSH but people seem to expect them to operate with total disregard to the safety of themselves & others.
The delay in entering the shop is a byproduct of our wonderful new PC world where common sense has been replaced by beauracracy & paperwork, the cops were covering their arse & who can blame them, damned if they do ,damned if they don't, no wonder the cops have become risk averse.

[Pixie]

Even if the cops was there in 1 min the fact still stands that the piece of shit shot and killed someone.
Thats the issue not the late cops!
Why do we tolerate that more than the cops being "late" . Am i the only one seeing a problem with this logic?

Also allowing firearms to defend our self is a good idea in theory but remeber you give the same right to all .......................... criminals included.

What bullshit.
The victim was able to get up and go to the toilet.
If he recieved treatment within the golden hour he would probably be alive today

[Pixie]

So the cops 'knew' the people they were talking to were inside the shop? - and that no gunman was anywhere near it?

Well then they should have bolted on into the shop then eh.

I wonder why they didn't??:blink:

Luckily they didn't run off after the perps stark naked - they might have been shot for their trouble :devil2:

[Pixie]

Coldrider, would you like to explain exactly what you mean by your comment?

Are you in some way saying that this guy deserved to be shot, because he was selling takeaway alcohol?

He's saying that it's God's retribution on those that put temptation in front of the intemperate,
Like aids is his punishment for buggers

[scumdog]

He's saying that it's God's retribution on those that put temptation in front of the intemperate,
Like aids is his punishment for buggers

Or binning is punishment for squids...??:crazy:

[Pixie]

This is true... but he was fighting for life in hospital for over 24 hours with the best available medical help, some damage just can't be fixed, even if help was immediate....



The whole Golden Hour thing is about the fact that rapid treatment would have probably meant he would not have deteriorated to such a critical state.
:argh:

[ManDownUnder]

FFS, the Singhs lost a member of their family in a situation which we're not analysing in hindsight. Find ANYONE that wouldn't find a fault, no matter how small, and hang blame on it, seeking redress for their loss.

They are normal people, greiving at their loss.

The cops would either have been
a) genuinely worried about someone armed still being in the premises
or
b) pissed off at not being able to do more, and having to hold the Ambo's back as well.

Yeah - let's get annoyed at the cops. It seems the penchant for cop hating isn't just a KB thing after all huh?

Procedure needs examining for sure (that's not to say it needs improving, just opening up fro review)... and I understand that is what's happening.

[Swoop]

Thats why all police vehicles and all police personnel need to be armed all the time. I don't know why we as a society are such pussies about it.

I will personally buy one of those Remington riot guns and give it to the next pleecemin I see, with a shiny bow and a complementary box of shells.
A very scary thought.
#1: If it is so dangerous out in the public arena, that police have to be armed at all times, then it is far more dangerous for the average citizen going about their daily life.
The police simply arrive after any incident.
(I know a few [non-gang members, btw] who have said "If the cops are armed, then so will I be")
#2: Giving a firearm to your average policeman is a mistake. The training is extremely basic and recurrency training is minimal.

Fashion statement removed...
Is it any wonder that there are delays?

Wake up New Zealand and arm your police!
Please think of all the people you work with. How many would you NOT want to be behind, or anywhere near you, with a loaded gun? Fucktards are in all facets of life, yours included. Scary, huh?

2) Arming them (Guns / Tasers ) is a quite a agreeable option to most.
Absolutely not. "Specialists" who know how to use a firearm correctly - such as what we currently have - does work.
The level of training required to get a person "capable" of using a bang-stick is one thing, keeping that ability fresh, is a difficult problem with the resources of NZ Plod.

Someone once said that the British Army in 1914 was "paralysed by King's Regulations (the army's SOP)". Full of generals and field officers , who were shit hot at rules and procedures, but lousy at winning battles. And way short of fighting soldiers. Seems to me that the NZ police force has gone the same way.
You are quite correct Ix. Unfortunately it is now endemic in our society. The PC brigade has made an entire industry from "procedures" and "compliance".

"...or I'll pop a cap in yo ass"
I guess that is an alternative method, but a bottle opener normally works quite efficiently... (You'd think a bottle shop would have at least one).

[tgb_novice]

I dont think puting a armed repsonse on the ground is going to make any big difference i personally think its the community that should stamp out crime.

Time people take responsiblity for there comunity they reside in. If your neighbour is a criminal dob him in.

And for the goverment ...... give the police more power and time to deal with it rather than sitting in trees and behind bushes catching people speeding.

Even better make a quata system for the crims just like you "dont" have for the road


Hold On a Min :slap:
Ok, Community stamps out crime, then why need a police force (or for that matter) Judicial ?

Care explain quota system for Crims (Anything like they can kill 3 before going to jail :mad: ? ) And just for the record we have quota system for the road (Thats the 100 pt system if u dont understand :blank: )

[enigma51]

Hold On a Min :slap:
Ok, Community stamps out crime, then why need a police force (or for that matter) Judicial ?

Care explain quota system for Crims (Anything like they can kill 3 before going to jail :mad: ? ) And just for the record we have quota system for the road (Thats the 100 pt system if u dont understand :blank: )

Im talking about the dollar figure each cop has to collect everyday.
That like saying its the schools responsibility to teach the kids social behaviour.

[davereid]

Hold On a Min :slap:
Ok, Community stamps out crime, then why need a police force (or for that matter) Judicial ?


Police WERE just normal citizens, with no extra powers than Joe Citizen.

In fact, that is as it should be.
In a true democracy, government derives its power from the citizen.

It is not possible to delegate an authority that you do hold yourself.

Therefore if the government have powers that the citizens have not delegated it, the government has become the master of the people, not its servant.

Philosophy aside, would armed police have acted any differently ?

Nope. Armed or not, police would have formed a safe containment perimeter, and only proceeded when VERY sure it was safe to do so.

Is this the correct procedure ? Not for Mr Singh. But for the policeman, ambo crews, and other members of the public it is.

Look at the USA. Cops get in gun battles there. They defend themselves and leave ASAP.

Perfect examples - look at school shootings. Of all the school shootings in the USA I could only find ONE where first responder police intervened.

In all the others, specialist units arrived, formed a perimeter and waited until the gun-man gave himself up, or killed himself.

(Actually there were two exceptions, where Joe Citizen who was Joe-on-the-spot took the criminal down. Not possible in NZ as Joe can't be armed.)

So, for my money...

- Police did the correct thing by forming a perimeter and staying alive...
- Correctly protected the public & the ambo crew..
- Failed the Singhs by not informing them the ambo was on-site when family members were able to bring the victim out, but didn't know no ambo was coming

The police performance was appropriate.

But not courageous.

Perhaps thats our problem.

We all like to think that in the heat of the moment, we would have shown more courage, and we expected the police to.

But in the real world, only a few of us crawl under burning petrol tankers to comfort little girls, or will brave a gunmans bullets to save a stranger.

[Maki]

I have a question for all the people who think that the police did no wrong by hanging around for half an hour after the perps were gone.

If I rob a bank, should I take a gun and shoot someone so that the police will not be on the crime scene for more than half an hour after the deed is done, giving me plenty of time to make my escape?

If I am not armed the police would come down on me like a ton of bricks, ASAP, right?

So, are the odds stacked in favour of armed perps who shoot people?

[devnull]

TBH, it's time we adopted a "right to bear arms"

There is no reason for a person who is defending themselves, with a firearm, to be prosecuted.

If the comissioner's office can decline to charge a certain politician for conspiracy to defraud and forgery, because it wasn't in the public interest (even though there was a prima facae case), the same lenience can be extended to self-defense cases.

Given the current climate of crime, having a semi-auto 12 gauge under a shop counter isn't a silly idea.

We've been conned into giving up our right to live, because criminals are more deserving.

This is bullshit

Policing was originally a partnership between the "bobbies" and the public.
EVERYONE had a responsibility to maintain law and order - some were paid to do so...

Our current climate encourages a victim mentality. Any who don't subscribe to that are encouraged to kill the offender/s and conceal it from police. Because they know that despite the fact that they were the innocent party, they will be penalised much more harshly than the offender would have been

(And I'm NOT bagging the police - they AREN'T the ones that have created the policies that encourage the crappy system we now have)

[Patrick]

I think someone watches too much American television....

Yep... Check out those gangsta movies - Crips, Bloods, Killer Beez - and plenty of others... Are you saying they don't watch too much American TV and the thought wouldn't cross their mind?


The point is Patrick that while the majority of the police are able to handle the awesome responsibility of being armed, there are still enough nutters within the force who are not, and some of those nutters are well up the ranks!

As for the fast police response to the recent vandalism in our local area-sending a patrol car around gives the residents confidence and respect for the police, and photographing 'tags' would take a short period of time and allow a possible future prosecution. Response and visibility seem to be vastly under rated as a powerful PR tool within the force.

Geez - lost ya sense of humour, have ya? Do what I did - get out of Auckland.


Yes, if we armed NZ Police tomorrow there would be those who would pull their gun on their own mother for doing 55kmph in a 50 zone, but perhaps a long term plan to properly recruit, train, and eventually arm NZ police is what's needed. Besides, go to Auckland International Airport, and you'll see all the Airport cops have a Glock strapped to their belt :niceone:

International Convention - All International Airport Police are to be armed.

But yeah, there are some I wouldn't trust with a tea bag, let alone a gun.

[Dakara]

International Convention - All International Airport Police are to be armed.

But yeah, there are some I wouldn't trust with a tea bag, let alone a gun.

Oh yea, what I was referring to is we obviously have some cops we can trust to be armed, and thus must have suitable training, so surely this could be extended.

[tgb_novice]

International Convention - All International Airport Police are to be armed.

But yeah, there are some I wouldn't trust with a tea bag, let alone a gun.

Am I missing something here :confused: or the news about the :Police: shooting the "International Traveller who refused to pay the departure tax" not make it to the newspaper yet ?

[devnull]

Am I missing something here :confused: or the news about the :Police: shooting the "International Traveller who refused to pay the departure tax" not make it to the newspaper yet ?

Haven't heard of that one, but if ever there was justification for shooting someone, this surely is:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/world/man-stomps-baby-to-death-in-front-of-onlookers/2008/06/16/1213468276475.html

[SixPackBack]

Geez - lost ya sense of humour, have ya? Do what I did - get out of Auckland.

Fuck I didn't know coppers had a sense of humor...bahahaha......and yeah thinkin' about leaving Auckland, where's a good destination? [with no crime and great roads]

[spudchucka]

Fuck I didn't know coppers had a sense of humor...bahahaha......and yeah thinkin' about leaving Auckland, where's a good destination? [with no crime and great roads]

Stewart Island.

[spudchucka]

Please think of all the people you work with. How many would you NOT want to be behind, or anywhere near you, with a loaded gun?

I can think of about 5 or 6. But then they aren't anywhere likely to be in a position to be a first responder to an armed incident. The job has a way of finding those types a specialist niche position that keeps them away from such matters.

[Swoop]

The job has a way of finding those types a specialist niche position that keeps them away from such matters.
I believe the term is "management" (it applies to all of our useless bastards).

[SixPackBack]

Stewart Island.


Cheeky c00nt;)

[spudchucka]

I believe the term is "management" (it applies to all of our useless bastards).

"Dressed for export" as it is often referred to.

[Genestho]

IMHO if we all started to take responsibilty and get active in our communities there would be less of this petty crime, that leads to violent crime.

If all of us that agree that punishments are not fitting to crimes and spent less time arguing about it in a forum and start writing to the policy makers, if we all became flys in their ointment - it couldn't be ignored, if our Justice Minister spent less time on easy fixes and trying to convince the public that violent crime figures are going down when the figures have been steadily going up since the sixties and faced whats happening down here in the real world. A violent crime is reported every 9 and a half minutes in NZ.

If Judges started cracking down at sentencing, if the scales were balanced between victims and offenders rights maybe things could change.

I feel we are on the tip of the iceburg with Justice. But unfortunately the only ones active and pressing for change are the ones brutally affected.

Some people are bad to the bone and harsher sentencing is not a deterrent, but yet why we should we have to share our community with people that know there is little consequence or dont care of the consequence.

Ive heard it costs us around $73 g's per year to house a prisoner. I would quite happily forfeit my block of cheese election year tax cut bribe to keep arseholes away from me and my kids.

And I am sick to death of the "oh he had a bad upbringing" defence, we all have choices. Even the bad bastards are able to make a choice.

The minority pc groups have a loud voice, I find it strange that so many kiwis feel the same about justice or lack of, and yet our voices are not heard, are we not loud enough?

If this big story concerns you, dont wait for the next big story to concern you and say the same things over and over, walk the walk and get active now, before the next big story IS you, or your mother, or your child, or your wife, or your husband.

And I may get red repped for this, but im afraid in some cases I have a very direct and unpc manner on this subject these days - if you think you can do a better job than the cops and what they face, get out there and do it yourselves - they could use the help, or shutup.

[scumdog]

An annoying factor some may not have noticed is:
Too many judges give soft sentences ( we ALL know that -except the judges I guess).

So when a decent judge sinks the slipper into a crim arsehole and gives him a proper sentence what happesn?

Said crim appeals, they see the sentence is more severe than all others for that type of offence - and the penalty is dropped back to the bench-mark soft-as sentence.:mad:

[scumdog]

Im talking about the dollar figure each cop has to collect everyday.

Oh, never knew that, I looked in all my books and can't find that 'dollar figure' - maybe you could tell me how much it is???:rolleyes:

BTW: Lost out today, no dollars collected.

[jrandom]

Interesting, in the news today: PM pushes for blitz on bottle shops (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10516715).

Prime Minister Helen Clark wants to crack down on the number of liquor outlets in poor areas of New Zealand in the wake of killings and robberies that have shocked the country.

...

The police had a "grave concern" about the role of alcohol consumption in violent offending in the area.

It would appear that Coldrider and I are not the only people willing to talk about the link between violence and the sale and consumption of alcohol.

[Swoop]

The access to alcohol is one issue. Another is the age at which it may be purchased. Another labourite law-change since "the population is able to control their drinking"... - Tui time.

[spudchucka]

IThe police had a "grave concern" about the role of alcohol consumption in violent offending in the area.

It would appear that Coldrider and I are not the only people willing to talk about the link between violence and the sale and consumption of alcohol.

If there wasn't any alcohol in our society you could scrap about 80% of all violent and property damage related crime.

[spudchucka]

Oh, never knew that, I looked in all my books and can't find that 'dollar figure' - maybe you could tell me how much it is???:rolleyes:

BTW: Lost out today, no dollars collected.

I haven't collected a single dollar for nearly two years. I wonder when they'll sack me?

[scumdog]

Prime Minister Helen Clark wants to crack down on the number of liquor outlets in poor areas of New Zealand in the wake of killings and robberies that have shocked the country.

The police had a "grave concern" about the role of alcohol consumption in violent offending in the area.

It would appear that Coldrider and I are not the only people willing to talk about the link between violence and the sale and consumption of alcohol.

There's no actual 'NEED' for alcamahol is society and given the amount of crime and misery I have seen where drinking it (not always to excess) has been the common factor I would not cry if it all vanished overnight - despite it being my number 1 chill-out-and-unwind favourite.

But I guess that knowing society they would find some other *chemical to take to enhance their stupidity/rage/violence/libido/braveness and use THAT as a crutch/excuse when they break the rules and get into trouble.

*and for some company/person to make a big profit from.

[terbang]

Fuck I didn't know coppers had a sense of humor...bahahaha......and yeah thinkin' about leaving Auckland, where's a good destination? [with no crime and great roads]
Saudi Arabia and also .12c per litre for gas...

[tgb_novice]

Yup! Alcohol is a cause of most of the issues, everybody agrees with it, but why do we not then ban the sale of alcohol and cigs? They cost us so much but we still persist in selling them :blink:

I have been in a country were sale & consumption of alcohol is banned (Saudi Arabia) and sure we found ways to get around it , but it made us the whole lot more careful and appreciated that alcohol was to be used with care and sense.!!

[imdying]

Yup! Alcohol is a cause of most of the issues, everybody agrees with it, but why do we not then ban the sale of alcohol and cigs? They cost us so much but we still persist in selling them :blink:That's why... you've just illustrated why people believe that once they start banning one thing, they'll just keep on going.

What if your post had read, 'but why do we not then ban the sale of alcohol, cigs, and dogs'? Or worse.

[davereid]

If there wasn't any alcohol in our society you could scrap about 80% of all violent and property damage related crime.

As a cop, I'm sure you attend lots of situations where drunk and stupid people are causing all sorts of trouble.

Its easy to say alcohol is to blame, and to assume that banning or restricting alcohol would help.

But most New Zealanders use alcohol regularly. Even on a daily basis, at levels which easily exceed "safe guidelines"

And most New Zealanders get through their entire lives with nothing worse than a traffic ticket.

Our attitude to alcohol and in fact all recreational chemicals may be CAUSED by it's restriction, not solved by it.

Thats because we don't think of alcohol as a normal part of our life.

We think of it as a reward, as special, as something we need to party with.

Restriction only reinforces this !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The common factors in all these violent crimes are clear

1. The criminals were already well known to the justice system. They would not have offended under a 3-strikes system as they would have been long since banged up.

2. They kill for pleasure. The RSA, this shooting, various bashings and stabbings, done for fun, even when the goal of the robbery had been achieved. If you are unarmed, and confonted by a violent criminal, chances are you WILL be attacked even if you co-operate.

3. A massive correlation with the DPB and social policy. Virtually all our criminals are born in welfare dependent families, grow up in welfare dependent families, and are themselves welfare dependent.

Really, the solutions seem to be staring us in the face, we merely lack the courage to do anything.

[spudchucka]

I wasn't suggesting that banning alcohol was the only answer, its just a recognition thing that alcohol is a key catalyst in most violent crime, especially family violence.

[scumdog]

Our attitude to alcohol and in fact all recreational chemicals may be CAUSED by it's restriction, not solved by it.

Awe cunt-rare, liberalising it's sales etc has seen things worse.

The dropping the drinking age, having more liquor outlets with longer hours and the pushing of alcopops has seen a pretty big increase in alcohol fueled problems in a lot of young peopels lives - more so than in my day of mainly beer and a 21 years drinking age, shorter pub hours and no sales from dairies, supermarkets etc .

[tgb_novice]

That's why... you've just illustrated why people believe that once they start banning one thing, they'll just keep on going.

What if your post had read, 'but why do we not then ban the sale of alcohol, cigs, and dogs'? Or worse.

Come on we already do it for a whole lot of drugs ? Heroin, P etc etc. If we need to go the other way then lets not ban anything ?

So if I rephrase my statements as "Lets classify alcohol as a Class C drug ? " Would that help ?

I mean for all that matters, if you compare the effects of alcohol with any other drugs you will see the similarities
1) Causes an feel good factor aka High in the brain
2) Is addictive
3) Repeated use can cause serious bodily harm
3) Excess intake can cause death
etc etc the list goes on.

Now this does not in anyway justify the death of the poor guy as he was just running a legally entitled business.