Another reason Labour should be arseholed! [Archive]

SPman

28th July 2008, 13:19

As if the new Immigration bill, isn't bad enough (secret evidence is going to be used by up to 14 departments with no redress and the automatic decision that the evidence is correct - no one will either know what it is, or be able to challenge it!), we now have this travesty!

"Asset forfeiture: reported back (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/07/asset-forfeiture-reported-back.html)
The Law and Order Committee has reported back (http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/99B73ABE-552D-4DB0-B89B-79F001BD5C4D/90132/DBSCH_SCR_4152_6147.pdf) [PDF] on the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Legislation/Bills/a/5/7/00DBHOH_BILL7801_1-Criminal-Proceeds-Recovery-Bill.htm). The bill would "reform" New Zealand's asset forfeiture law to a non-conviction-based regime, breaking down barriers between civil and criminal proceedings and allowing police to seize money, cars, homes and other valuables from people who have not been convicted of a crime (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2005/06/asset-forfeiture-sacrificing-justice.html) (or worse, actually acquitted of one by a jury) under a "guilty until proven innocent" system with a lower burden of proof - Ahmed Zaoui standards of evidence (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2004/11/ahmed-zaoui-standards-of-evidence.html). It's a bill every person who cares about justice and human rights should oppose.
Unfortunately, the MPs on the Law and Order Committee do not care about those things, and the bill has survived practically unchanged. There have been some minor tweaks to align it with the government's new organised crime agency (the forfeiture agency will be the police - though they won't get to keep the money, thank Cthulhu), and with current policy on Serious Fraud Office-style powers (powers to force suspects to incriminate themselves have been toned down and subjected to judicial oversight), but the rest of the bill is unchanged. The real issues around justice and human rights with this sort of system (summarised in my submission (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/05/submission_16.html)) have simply been ignored.
New Zealand will regret this. These powers are a recipe for injustice and police misconduct. They give the police real powers to punish on mere suspicion, and to victimise those who have the temerity to be acquitted of serious crime (something the police seem to regard as a mere technicality and a failure of the justice system rather than of themselves). Given that the police make mistakes (Arthur Allen Thomas, anyone?), innocent people will lose their homes, and possibly even their lives as a result of this bill. But politicians will get to posture about being "tough on crime", which is apparently all that matters."

I used to think it was just Helen gone power mad, but it seems to be something that is now affecting the whole rotten system.

A sop to the unthinking rednecks, maybe, but shit like this has no part in any society that considers itself civilised.

So, Labour is a no no, National are a pack of scurrilous, lying, deceiving, misleading, money grabbers. NZ first and Winnie should be hung from the nearest yardarm as crooks, liars and perverted shitheads, Greens are just not in the world of reality and don't know how to push when they should, push.....King Jeffys party has gone to ground........who does that leave, come election time?
Seriously!

MisterD

28th July 2008, 13:30

National are a pack of scurrilous, lying, deceiving, misleading, money grabbers.

Just remind us who it was that stole $800k of taxpayers money to fund their election campaign, and then changed the law to make it legal after all....

***edit***

Oh, and on the main substance of your post, civil standards of evidence are "balance of probability" not "guilty until proven innocent". I'm sure you're one of those that applauded OJ being found responsible in a civil suit after being aquitted of murdering his wife...

Nice to see Liabour's fear and mis-information tactics being used against them for a change though, keep up the good work.

James Deuce

28th July 2008, 14:15

Just remind us who it was that stole $800k of taxpayers money to fund their election campaign, and then changed the law to make it legal after all....

***edit***

Oh, and on the main substance of your post, civil standards of evidence are "balance of probability" not "guilty until proven innocent". I'm sure you're one of those that applauded OJ being found responsible in a civil suit after being aquitted of murdering his wife...

Nice to see Liabour's fear and mis-information tactics being used against them for a change though, keep up the good work.
Read the damn bill and stop attacking the man. You're not a politician. You have a duty of care to make sure that politicians don't push shit like this through. Just like every single voter. You lot didn't even notice when you lost the right to travel the country unmolested unless you did something defined by law as wrong.

Didn't. Even. Notice.

MisterD

28th July 2008, 14:45

Thanks James. Fark, the election date hasn't even been announced and we're up to our necks in scaremongering already...

ManDownUnder

28th July 2008, 15:10

...National are a pack of scurrilous, lying, deceiving, misleading, money grabbers.

Funny - they're getting my vote. I work hard to earn good money, I'd like more of it for me and mine rather than you and yours (call it selfish if you want).

If they're the least worst option - I'll take it - thanks.

Patch

28th July 2008, 15:40

they're all a pack of lying, thieving bastards - they're politicians after all.

Better we have the ones we've got, rather than the other ones out there.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/patchTLR/main_splash.jpg
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/patchTLR/bush_worstdisaster.jpg

Steam

28th July 2008, 16:07

I'm going to live in my shack up the mountain and ignore the world, and when I come down it might all be like Smith's Dream / Sleeping Dogs.
That'd be interesting.

MSTRS

28th July 2008, 16:10

Vote Anarchy Party. You will be better off.

HenryDorsetCase

28th July 2008, 16:13

Ixion

28th July 2008, 16:17

I'm going to live in my shack up the mountain and ignore the world, and when I come down it might all be like Smith's Dream / Sleeping Dogs.
That'd be interesting.

That won't help you. Y'r pr'bly growing cannabis up there. Cos, why else would anyone live like that. Stands to reason that only someone with summit to hide would hole up like that. 'N how y' getting money to live on anyway?

So, balance of probabilities, whatever y'got was probably gotten as proceeds of crime.

Y' shack's confiscated. (Yeah, well MAYBE it ain't actually your shack. And maybe it is. It's confiscated anyway,and anyone who wants to argue can take it to court. ) And the rest of y'stuff is confiscated too. Criminals like you shouldn't expect to profit from y' crimes. Yeah, well maybe you ain't been found guilty of any crime. But balance of probabilities, we reckon y'r guilty of something. And that's good enough

Noice.

enigma51

28th July 2008, 16:20

Labour is great

They have given us
working for families
tax cuts
rail system
interest free student loans
anti smack law (safe the kids)

And thats just to name a few

What you guys bitching about you voted for them!

avgas

28th July 2008, 16:21

Ha the funny thing was when i china i got to talk all kinds of bad shit about china...........yet on the tv last night some chinese person was complaining about being persecuted in china.
I kind sat back and thought to myself, "Man, good thing i am safe in NZ. The government doesn't even listen to me here"

avgas

28th July 2008, 16:27

working for families - for the poor, not the rest of us that want to aspire to being more than dads n mums. Admitted this was a good move, it was also 50% advertising, 50% effort.
tax cuts - after tax increases (i saw it on my payslip)
rail system - for how long until they give up? Seems very "spirit of the moment"
interest free student loans - agreed kept me in NZ.......until it is paid off, but still pissed me off when i got no allowance but could have had unemployment benefit. Very bandaid cure to the brain drain really.
anti smack law (safe the kids) - good thing you cant sue in nz.

enigma51

28th July 2008, 16:29

SPman

28th July 2008, 17:33

working for families - for the poor, not the rest of us that want to aspire to being more than dads n mums. Admitted this was a good move, it was also 50% advertising, 50% effort.

rail system - for how long until they give up? Seems very "spirit of the moment"
.Working for families is one of the better things they did.
Buying back rail is a good move, I reckon, even if they did pay a bit too much for it. With fuel costs spiralling up up and away, a vital infrastructure like this should be in the peoples hands - and if anyone says "private industry does it better", just go and jump off a cliff, because private ownership, demonstrably, didn't do it better!

Back on subject - as J D has said, if you don't stand up to legislation like this, which is slipped through, with nary a bleat from the media, who should be in the forefront of standing up for peoples freedoms, then, when you suddenly realise you have no freedoms, of the sort people have had in this country for 150 yrs, no rights, no nothing, except the "privilege" of working your guts out for nothing, saying nothing and keeping your heads down, knowing your lowly place in society, you'll be totally rooted! It'll be to late, then!

Governments are meant to serve the people, not control them, and if the population can't be bothered enforcing that point, then they deserve everything they get!

Nasty

28th July 2008, 17:55

Labour is great
..
What you guys bitching about you voted for them!

Praise be what saviors - what utter crap ... in fact I DID NOT vote for them ... that they won shows that people forgot the lies from the previous election . .as a number of people will with the next one. Since they did not win by clear majority ... that says it all really ... did they really win or jsut take the win??

Grub

28th July 2008, 18:00

What you guys bitching about you voted for them!

Nope, nobody voted for them last election - ask around. :innocent:

vifferman

28th July 2008, 18:07

Allegedly, health expenditure has gone up heaps under Labour, and most of it has gone on "infrastructure" - like more project (b)leaders, manglers, and the like, to the extent that there is reportedly 2.5 of these non-medical staff for every patient. That would be fine if (but not really) IF it made the whole healthcare thing work better. From my own personal experience, it doesn't.

My mother recently had a serious operation. After 3 days, she was sent home, supposedly to have a nurse calling on her every day. However, a weekend intervened, so the nurse didn't come after the first day or so, and instead my sisters phoned her with some 'obs'. Mum subsequently (within a day of being at home) had to go back to hospital, because they forgot to give her some medication.:blink:
Then again to A&E, because she developed a serious infection.
Then back again, because the antibiotics were too strong for an old lady, and she reacted badly to them and nearly carked it. Unfortunately, the 'bugs' seemed to thrive, so she was ambulance to A&E again, and stayed there for several days. Yes, in A&E, because they couldn't find a bed in the hospital.
On the weekend just gone, she finally got admitted to a medical ward. Where she got WORSE, because the hospital staff didn't know she'd recently had an operation (despite the fact she had bandages, a drain, that sort of thing). She's eaten basically nothing that's stayed down or in, for about 10 days, and has gone from being quite cheerful, comfortable and perky when I last saw her 10 days ago, to being depressed, weak, frail and looking 20 years older.
And all this is due to surgical and medical having different roles, and no co-ordination or communication between A&E, Surgical, Medical, Admissions, and District Health.:angry2:

I don't get angry easily, but I'm really pissed off!
Yes, my mother had cancer, which was potentially life-threatening, but being fucked over by the 'health' system (sickness system would be more accurate) has been much more injurious to her health. WTF is happening to our "health dollars"?!?

MSTRS

28th July 2008, 19:10

Governments are meant to serve the people, not control them, and if the population can't be bothered enforcing that point, then they deserve everything they get!

Excepting socialist govts...
9 years of pain, where is the gain? (I don't like chewing gum)

Ocean1

28th July 2008, 19:55

OK, you pussies realy got the balls to stand on yer own two feet?

http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/

Or not...

Winston001

28th July 2008, 20:23

So, Labour is a no no, National are a pack of scurrilous, lying, deceiving, misleading, money grabbers. NZ first and Winnie should be hung from the nearest yardarm as crooks, liars and perverted shitheads, Greens are just not in the world of reality and don't know how to push when they should, push.....King Jeffys party has gone to ground........who does that leave, come election time?
Seriously!

ACT

Association of Consumers and Taxpayers

Easy. :D

Winston001

28th July 2008, 20:29

"Asset forfeiture: reported back (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2008/07/asset-forfeiture-reported-back.html)
The Law and Order Committee has reported back (http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/99B73ABE-552D-4DB0-B89B-79F001BD5C4D/90132/DBSCH_SCR_4152_6147.pdf) [PDF] on the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Bill (http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Legislation/Bills/a/5/7/00DBHOH_BILL7801_1-Criminal-Proceeds-Recovery-Bill.htm). The bill would "reform" New Zealand's asset forfeiture law to a non-conviction-based regime, breaking down barriers between civil and criminal proceedings and allowing police to seize money, cars, homes and other valuables from people who have not been convicted of a crime (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2005/06/asset-forfeiture-sacrificing-justice.html) (or worse, actually acquitted of one by a jury) under a "guilty until proven innocent" system with a lower burden of proof - Ahmed Zaoui standards of evidence (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2004/11/ahmed-zaoui-standards-of-evidence.html). It's a bill every person who cares about justice and human rights should oppose.
Unfortunately, the MPs on the Law and Order Committee do not care about those things, and the bill has survived practically unchanged. There have been some minor tweaks to align it with the government's new organised crime agency (the forfeiture agency will be the police - though they won't get to keep the money, thank Cthulhu), and with current policy on Serious Fraud Office-style powers (powers to force suspects to incriminate themselves have been toned down and subjected to judicial oversight), but the rest of the bill is unchanged. The real issues around justice and human rights with this sort of system (summarised in my submission (http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/05/submission_16.html)) have simply been ignored.
New Zealand will regret this. These powers are a recipe for injustice and police misconduct. They give the police real powers to punish on mere suspicion, and to victimise those who have the temerity to be acquitted of serious crime (something the police seem to regard as a mere technicality and a failure of the justice system rather than of themselves). Given that the police make mistakes (Arthur Allen Thomas, anyone?), innocent people will lose their homes, and possibly even their lives as a result of this bill. But politicians will get to posture about being "tough on crime", which is apparently all that matters."

I used to think it was just Helen gone power mad, but it seems to be something that is now affecting the whole rotten system.

Gotta give you a bling for this - well done. Its a serious issue and I'll need to read about it but well done for making a submission and raising it here. So much for the Rule of Law!

Dargor

28th July 2008, 20:30

Governments are meant to serve the people, not control them, and if the population can't be bothered enforcing that point, then they deserve everything they get!

Yea thats great for the population, but what about me. Why can they drag me down with them.

+1 libertarianz (http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/)

sinned

28th July 2008, 20:48

Praise be what saviors - what utter crap ... in fact I DID NOT vote for them ... that they won shows that people forgot the lies from the previous election . .as a number of people will with the next one. Since they did not win by clear majority ... that says it all really ... did they really win or jsut take the win?? 9 years + of immigration and emigration has helped to shift the voting balance with of course a few tasty tit bits to swing a vote here and there

OK, you pussies realy got the balls to stand on yer own two feet?

http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/

Or not... You got to have balls for this stand

ACT

Association of Consumers and Taxpayers

Easy. :D And this one.

Yea thats great for the population, but what about me. Why can they drag me down with them.
+1 libertarianz (http://www.libertarianz.org.nz/) If you let them they will drag you down - it is over to you.

Love or hate politicians, if you don't participate in a political organisation which has the principles you believe in or at least speak out and vote you deserve what you get.

SPman

29th July 2008, 02:38

. Since they did not win by clear majority ... that says it all really ... did they really win or jsut take the win??
So, after umpteen years of MMP, people still havent got a clue as to how their electoral system works! It's MMP, not first past the post. It's a more level playing field, so detested by National and the right, except when it suits them. They really won, unlike National, who "won in 1978 and 1981, with fewer people voting for them, than Labour!
MMP - which reflects the mood of the population rather more fairly than FPP.
ACT - yep, let Roger Douglas finish fucking the country over, which he didn't quite manage to achieve last time. Association of Concerned rich cocksuckers, who want to grab more for themselves!
Libertarianz - less government in our lives.....sounds good - pay bugger all tax, look after yourself - so, logically no money, no healthcare, no assistance when you need it, pay for your own schooling or no schools.......

It seems to me, that the natural term of a Government seems to be about 4-5 yrs. After that, they seem to completely stop listening to the public (if they ever did) and get a dose of "fuck you, we know whats best for you" arrogance, that needs periodic flushing down the toilet!

Forest

29th July 2008, 02:49

I support this change in the law.

Because I can see how it will be used against gangs, gang members, and other scumbags who can't demonstrate how they've acquired flash gear without working for it.

Nasty

29th July 2008, 06:02

So, after umpteen years of MMP, people still havent got a clue as to how their electoral system works! It's MMP, not first past the post. It's a more level playing field, so detested by National and the right, except when it suits them. They really won, unlike National, who "won in 1978 and 1981, with fewer people voting for them, than Labour!
MMP - which reflects the mood of the population rather more fairly than FPP.
ACT - yep, let Roger Douglas finish fucking the country over, which he didn't quite manage to achieve last time. Association of Concerned rich cocksuckers, who want to grab more for themselves!
Libertarianz - less government in our lives.....sounds good - pay bugger all tax, look after yourself - so, logically no money, no healthcare, no assistance when you need it, pay for your own schooling or no schools.......

It seems to me, that the natural term of a Government seems to be about 4-5 yrs. After that, they seem to completely stop listening to the public (if they ever did) and get a dose of "fuck you, we know whats best for you" arrogance, that needs periodic flushing down the toilet!

No we know how it works ... but ... I NEVER VOTED FOR THAT EITHER! Common rule - if you don't vote you can't complain .. I voted for other stuff ... so really I can COMPLAIN AS MUCH AS I FARKIN WANT!

Oh another broken promise .. after so 6 (I think) years review MMP .. still waiting ...

Flatcap

29th July 2008, 08:35

enigma51

29th July 2008, 08:57

Nope, nobody voted for them last election - ask around. :innocent:

Thats what i cant understand everyone says they did not vote for them but yet they are in power sounds just like Zim.
:buggerd:

Swoop

29th July 2008, 09:15

Buying back rail is a good move, I reckon, even if they did pay a bit too much for it. With fuel costs spiralling up up and away, a vital infrastructure like this should be in the peoples hands - and if anyone says "private industry does it better", just go and jump off a cliff, because private ownership, demonstrably, didn't do it better!
An organisation that had a reputation (under previous gubbinment control) of "If you want it crushed beyond recognition - send it by rail" isn't difficult to improve.
It appears that the Aussie owners of the train set did, in fact, improve
it since the price paid for the trainset, increased.
Unfortunately the Looney Labourite Sect has purchased something that needs a serious injection of cash. The taxpayers get to have their wallets/purses bled once again.
Presumably we will have to re-establish the "railways workshops" again, with all the normal inefficiencies?

Only poor people and the mentally impaired ride on trains
I think that there is a "trainspotter" in Wellytown's circular-wind-tunnel. At the very least, someone who had a toy trainset as a kid...

avgas

29th July 2008, 09:24

If you dont like dont vote for them

Didn't - x 3 even
so i can complain all i want

avgas

29th July 2008, 09:27

Thats what i cant understand everyone says they did not vote for them but yet they are in power sounds just like Zim.
:buggerd:
What party did you meet everyone at?
NZ is small - but it is not that small.
Also take into account that 20% did not vote, and 18% follow the Jedi religion.
Can't remember the percentage of us who borrow from GE money, or the percentage of us who blindly invested in dodgy finance companies.
Just goes to show that what is good for the mass, is not always the best solution aye.

Swoop

29th July 2008, 09:44

NZ is small - but it is not that small.
Unfortunately the election was "bought" in South Auckland. New electorates were formed in that area and the population demographic suited the Looney Labourite Sect...

devnull

29th July 2008, 09:56

Voltaire had it right... "The best form of govt is a democracy, tempered by assassination"

vifferman

29th July 2008, 10:15

Unfortunately the Looney Labourite Sect has purchased something that needs a serious injection of cash. The taxpayers get to have their wallets/purses bled once again.
I'm expecting that not only will we have to pay for the railways to be brought up to spec, but also that we'll have to pay penalties if we choose to drive our cars, in order to force us onto trains.
Doesn't the Gooberment get it? People generally don't want to either travel by train or send stuff by train! It's not convenient, and the country's terrain doesn't really cater well for it. The exception to this is the few people who live near to a railway line and who don't need their car during the day, so are happy to commute by rail.

enigma51

29th July 2008, 10:22

What party did you meet everyone at?
.

dont try and be smart you might become a labour voter! :whistle:

MSTRS

29th July 2008, 10:36

dont try and be smart you might become a labour voter! :whistle:

Intelligent people don't vote Labour...teachers do, and they are NOT intelligent.

Sanx

29th July 2008, 10:53

Intelligent people don't vote Labour...teachers do, and they are NOT intelligent.

Those that take more from the State than they give to it, vote Labour.

It's a party of bludgers, run by bludgers and with a vested interest in supporting as many bludgers as possible for as long as possible.

MSTRS

29th July 2008, 11:00

Those that take more from the State than they give to it, vote Labour.

It's a party of bludgers, run by bludgers and with a vested interest in supporting as many bludgers as possible for as long as possible.

Go to the top of the class. Take your books and pencils. Once you graduate, get a high-paying job. Then you can support a whole tribe of Labour voters.

Sanx

29th July 2008, 12:05

Go to the top of the class. Take your books and pencils. Once you graduate, get a high-paying job.

Thank you. I'd like to think I've managed this objective.

Then you can support a whole tribe of Labour voters.

From Queensland? I think not! :Punk:

(And before someone talks about how I was happy to use the state to get my education, blah-di-blah; sorry, but that period of my life was spent in another country, so the NZ government paid nothing to get me where I am today.)

Winston001

29th July 2008, 12:53

I'm expecting that not only will we have to pay for the railways to be brought up to spec, but also that we'll have to pay penalties if we choose to drive our cars, in order to force us onto trains.

Doesn't the Gooberment get it? People generally don't want to either travel by train or send stuff by train! It's not convenient, and the country's terrain doesn't really cater well for it. The exception to this is the few people who live near to a railway line and who don't need their car during the day, so are happy to commute by rail.

I think you are right. However - and I have a 4WD - I have some sympathy for reducing the load on roads. It is logical to encourage mass transport of people and freight. I don't like it either but if I had to, could adapt. As long as I can use my truck and bike when I choose.

Apart from Australia and the USA, many nations use rail and public transport as their main movers. With the cost of fuel rising, and the cost of maintaining superhighways as well, maybe rail and buses will come back into their own. Probably in much newer efficent forms.

Winston001

29th July 2008, 13:02

As for the Government buying back the railways, I hate to admit it but longterm it could be a good decision.

However - the Labour ministers have no business nous at all.

They previously made the same mistake with Air New Zealand.

Air was facing bankruptcy. Aunty Helen stepped in with our cheque-book and saved the day. Dipstick. What they should have done was wait for it to crash and buy the whole kit and kaboodle from the liquidator. Or.......heaven forfend.....let it go entirely. Yes its nice to have a national airline but that's what various small Pacific islands thought too...... :( It isn't a soverignty issue.

As for rail, Toll were going to close down some lines. Let them - call their bluff. But it is election year so....... :argh: Seriously, who would have bought closed rail lines and rolling stock?!! There would always only be one serious bidder - the NZ government and they could dictate the price.

I despair, I really do. Such a waste of money.

davereid

29th July 2008, 14:03

So what if they closed some lines ?

If they arent economic why should I be taxed so they can be kept ?

Why bother ?

Small, hilly countries have never made a dollar for any rail operator.

Small hilly countries with a network of quality ports are even less likely to make a dollar.

If Kiwis thought rail was such a good investment, they could have phoned their broker and purchased a share.

But trainsets are never as much fun as when some-one else pays for them.

Close the bloody railway lines down. Make 'em into motor-cycle only freeways.

Forest

29th July 2008, 15:16

Voltaire had it right... "The best form of govt is a democracy, tempered by assassination"

I've just finished reading Voltaire's Candide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candide). Which is a satire of course, but has some good ideas. One of my favourites:

In this country we find it pays to shoot an admiral from time to time to encourage the others.

Flatcap

29th July 2008, 16:48

vifferman

29th July 2008, 17:31

With the cost of fuel rising, and the cost of maintaining superhighways as well, maybe rail and buses will come back into their own. Probably in much newer efficent forms.
Nah, feck that. I want to see steam cars back on the road.
I'm sure with 21st Century technology, we could make some really good ones, that will burn any sort of fuel from used oil to carbon credits to politicians to rendered down baby fur seal whale penguins. :niceone:

MisterD

29th July 2008, 18:11

Bring back Steam Trains - plenty of coal to burn round here

Plus they go TOOOoooooooOOOOOOOT

That's actually a sensible suggestion. The best way to make money with our trainset is the scenic trainride tourist thing, and those anoraks luurve steam.

Flatcap

29th July 2008, 18:41

That's actually a sensible suggestion. The best way to make money with our trainset is the scenic trainride tourist thing, and those anoraks luurve steam.

Anoraks, MisterD, and MasterD

ambler

29th July 2008, 19:38

Libertarianz - less government in our lives.....sounds good - pay bugger all tax, look after yourself - so, logically no money, no healthcare, no assistance when you need it, pay for your own schooling or no schools.......
Remember that this money and assistance only comes from your taxes anyway. Wouldn't you rather have the extra 33% of your income to arrange as you decide? Healthcare by insurance, schools paid for directly etc would also encourage a better product.

Perhaps another way of putting it is: would you rather pay more tax than you do now, for more assistance? :)

On a side note, did you know that around 7.5% of your income taxes for 2009 will be spent purely on running the IRD itself? When did you agree to that?
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p03Pw5UOTJJ4KBYNPTHWUDg
So a full 2.5% of your income for next year will be taken from you in order to facilitate the taking of another 30%.... great system huh.

Ocean1

29th July 2008, 20:00

Apart from Australia and the USA, many nations use rail and public transport as their main movers. With the cost of fuel rising, and the cost of maintaining superhighways as well, maybe rail and buses will come back into their own. Probably in much newer efficent forms.

Rail's inefficiencies are only partly geographically or technologically related. The main reason it's a huge looser is the institutional culture, it's utterly dysfunctional. The fact that the rolling stock and other assets are so run down as to be worth literally nothing is a factor, but you can throw money at that to fix it. You can't fix a century old embedded culture of failure.

If they arent economic why should I be taxed so they can be kept ?

Devil's advocate here: Because if the assets associated with an industry relying totally on high value tech investment fall below a certain level then a nationwide business otherwise potentially capable of supplying a genuinely commercially valuable service will fail. Economies of scale matter, and in the case of any viable rail system in NZ it’s got to be managed nationally. Trouble is that means a monopoly, which means the sort of bullshit we’ve had to put up with from both NZR and Toll.

You’ll notice Toll are now in the position of owning the only possible Tech support capabilities for our re-nationalised railway. They also have at least a heads of agreement with the government to supply those services to a rail system needing a multi-billion dollar upgrade…

Winston001

29th July 2008, 22:02

Devil's advocate here: Because if the assets associated with an industry relying totally on high value tech investment fall below a certain level then a nationwide business otherwise potentially capable of supplying a genuinely commercially valuable service will fail. Economies of scale matter, and in the case of any viable rail system in NZ it’s got to be managed nationally......

Good thing the Government owns the nations electricity generation and supply - no, wait....dang!!

Slyer

29th July 2008, 22:26

Man... libertarianz kicks ass.
I'm so voting for them now.

Steam

29th July 2008, 22:58

Bring back Steam Trains - plenty of coal to burn round here
Plus they go TOOOoooooooOOOOOOOT
I completely agree! Apparently Hillside Workshops in Dunedin still have the tooling to make them packed away in a museum shed somewhere.

Nah, feck that. I want to see steam cars back on the road.
I'm sure with 21st Century technology, we could make some really good ones, that will burn any sort of fuel from used oil to carbon credits to politicians to rendered down baby fur seal whale penguins. :niceone:
Gasifier cars, also known as Woodgas cars. You put in any kind of burnable stuff, including wood, leaves or sawdust or compost or roadkill or anything.
It heats it with a controlled amount of oxygen or steam, and you get gas plus charcoal. Then you just pipe it into your car. You run the same engine settings as for LPG.
In Europe during World War II, over a million vehicles ran using wood-burning gasifiers when gasoline and diesel were unavailable.

http://www.knowledgepublications.com/hydrogen/images/Hydrogen_Generator_Gas_V._1_&_2_Wood-Burning_Motorcycle.gif
Gainesville, Florida, 1981. The tiny generator that powers this wood-burning motorcycle was constructed at the University of Florida out of a fire-extinguisher casing. The vehicle gets 70 km per kg of wood Photo by Barbara Hansen.

And here's a car with one on the front.
http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/files/images/hurved3.preview.jpg

Burt Munro used one during WW2 when petrol was scarce.

Man... libertarianz kicks ass.
I'm so voting for them now.

aaaaaahahaha! Talk about a wasted vote!:lol:

Shadows

29th July 2008, 23:27

Nope, nobody voted for them last election - ask around. :innocent:

So you don't know many South Auckland coconuts then?

The Pastor

29th July 2008, 23:38

you know what, im not actually too woried about this one.

Its really going to make it alot harder for gangs to operate. at least I hope it will.

Its never going to effect me personally either.

But There will be some innocent people who will have there lives destroyed by it, just a matter of time.

The question is, are the pros worth the potential cons?

I think it might just be.

Then again im always wrong about everything.

slowpoke

30th July 2008, 00:47

The problem is people are quick to complain but take no responsibility for actually following the process and applying their learnings constructively. More people can tell you who was on the wing in the last AB's game than who their local politician is. Most of us read the front pages of the paper last (if at all), as we are more concerned with the sports or gossip pages than issues that have a direct bearing on our lives.

Ashamed of our politician's? Hmph, we should be ashamed of ourselves.

I don't see the drama with the Government buying back the Railways. Governments should be about providing services for it's populace not generating profits. As such the Health, Education, Utilities, Transport, Justice systems etc etc should be measured by the quality of service they provide rather than how much money they make.

This "private enterprise does it better" line is just an absolute crock. It's like Hyosung saying to investors "look our GT650 is cheaper and more profitable than Suzuki's SV650 so it's obviously a better bike" whilst the actual end user ends up with a bike that has a noticeable performance deficit. If you don't mind something that doesn't operate quite as well then fine but I don't think it's acceptable with our important services.

Then there is the obvious question of if it costs X dollars to generate electricity or run a railway or Telecom system, why would you pay X dollars plus substantial profit to a private company to do the same thing to a reduced standard? It just seems non-sensical.

I could go on but I think it's time the Reverend Rantalot had a wee lie down.....

ambler

30th July 2008, 01:33

Steam, the only truly wasted vote is where you don't cast it at all. Coming a close second is the vote which is cast for a candidate you don't really support.

When you vote, you are giving your answer to the question "What do you want?". If you use your vote to answer some other question, such as "Which is the lesser of these two evils?", then you can't complain about not getting what you want.

SPman

31st July 2008, 13:45

And of course, you get 2 votes and they don't have to be for the same party. I've found my electorate vote has often been different to my party vote...........

SPman

31st July 2008, 13:54

Only poor people and the mentally impaired ride on trains
Yep - I ride 100km each way each day to work - comfortable, airconditioned, cheaper than the cost of fuel for the bike, I read, play computer games etc and can just relax on the way to work, and home.
Oops - I'm in West Australia. - whilst not perfect, at least they are trying.
Guess I'm mentally impaired.........

oldrider

31st July 2008, 14:10

Good thing the Government owns the nations electricity generation and supply - no, wait....dang!!

The government own a whole lot more of it now than they did before "deregulation". :shifty:

Not privatisation as most think it was. :shit:

It is the government that is screwing electricity consumers in NZ! :yes: John.

98tls

31st July 2008, 14:42

Methinks i will vote for anyone that gets rid of "working for families",Let them work for themselves i have no interest in paying for them.Just another bludge.:bash:If you cant pay then keep your dick in ya pants.

Slyer

31st July 2008, 18:14

PAYE Tax Calculator for $30,000

You paid around $6,210 in Income Tax last year, or 20.70% of your income.

Social Security and Welfare 1,571.82
Core Government Services 963.20
No Functional Classification * 958.43
Health 948.07
Education 866.08
Law & Order 220.04
Defence 183.28
Transport and Communications 159.99
Other Economic 144.56
Heritage, Culture & Recreation 80.15
Primary Services 63.40
Fuel and Energy 22.48
Housing and Community 15.70
Other 12.64
Finance 0.17

* Worryingly, 'No Functional Classification' is the third largest category in the Treasury analysis. It covers such things as 'Provision for Retirement and Long Service Leave' by the Department of Conservation, and 'Acquisition of Textphone Equipment' by the Ministry for Economic Development.

Look at where the majority of my taxes are going!
And this is only the INCOME TAX, doesn't count for GST or fuel taxes(something like 40% of the total cost of fuel).