One person one vote

[Littleman]

Hypothetically speaking….


Election day 2008.

Ahmed rocks up to the polling booth and votes labour.

Ahmed is an unemployed 18 year old Somalian. Having left school at the age of 14 he gained his residency in 2006 and has numerous dishonesty and violence convictions. He is a new father having recently born a child with his 15 year old girlfriend.


Geoff walks up to the polling booth and carefully(yet sceptically) casts his vote.

Geoff is a 42 year old 5th generation New Zealander. He is currently employed as a chemical engineer for a firm that exports 90 percent of it product overseas. He has obtained a tertiary degree in his field of expertise. Geoff has three children who are well adjusted and are attending school. He has never been arrested and has never leaned on the public health system other than his G.P. He has private medical insurance just in case.


Despite this somewhat extreme example, it appears to be democracy in action.

Anybody know (apart from dictatorships) where one person doesn’t mean one vote?

It would be nice if an electoral system acknowledged and qualified votes proportionately to the voters input and contribution to that society.

Yeah yeah I know, idealistic stuff.

[Swoop]

Anybody know (apart from dictatorships) where one person doesn’t mean one vote?
New Zealand. Where we get two votes.

Electorate and Party.

[R6_kid]

New Zealand. Where we get two votes.

Electorate and Party.

apart from that technicality he does have a point...

Why should a bottom of the heap child abuser/rapist/murderer that has been released from jail get the same rights as their victim, or those in society who have had to pay for the misadventures. Same goes for people who have stayed on the benefit 'seeking' employment for the last X years.

I'm with littleman on this one.

[98tls]

Ahmed contributes to our health system<_< by unselfishly spreading the aids virus and more to the point therefore ensuring that his off-spring probably wont get to an age to vote for anyone let alone labour.

[Bikernereid]

The UK! Gerrymandering means that one vote is worth more than another.

Gerrymandering: Drawing of electoral district lines in a way that gives advantage to a particular political party.

[James Deuce]

Just what we needed. Yet another thread bashing out generalisations based on race, social status, and qualifications.

Go the NZ middle class! FTW!

[AllanB]

Just send the little shit to prison for Statutory rape :dodge:

[98tls]

Just what we needed. Yet another thread bashing out generalisations based on race, social status, and qualifications.

Go the NZ middle class! FTW! :laugh:Just what we needed.Another posting in a thread that he obviously has no interest in.The internets a big place,simple really.

[scracha]

Oh excellent. Let's not have the working classes vote now. Classless society my arse

[Bikernereid]

For a biker site this really is a political place:woohoo:

[98tls]

For a biker site this really is a political place:woohoo: :shit:Most sites based on..well anything invaribaly end up talking anything and why not.After many years only spending time on an American based but members all over TL based site i came across KB awhile back,the only major difference ive found is the feet stampers (think 5 year olds) that when they encounter a topic they didnt invent/dont understand or its outside there square (nothing wrong with that) perform like said 5 year olds in a supermarket.To top it off theres the KBers that look in a mirror and see god.

[FJRider]

If he votes Labour... is he trying punish US...

[98tls]

If he votes Labour... is he trying punish US... Or aid us:pinch:

[Skyryder]

The shit probably voted Nats just on the basis he wants to be a winner.:beer:

Skyryder

[98tls]

A recent gathering of skinnys outside labour hq.Sadly no pic of Ahmed as he was attending a social bludgefare bi-anal meeting.

[Robert Taylor]

Just what we needed. Yet another thread bashing out generalisations based on race, social status, and qualifications.

Go the NZ middle class! FTW!

The most bashed group in this country are in fact white anglo saxon protestant male businessmen. That is NOT in any way intended as a racist statement.
I say send the Somalian and all his brothers and sisters back to where they came from. One reason they are here is votes for Labour, FACT.
Go to the library and take out a book on the eminent British politician Enoch Powell. So much of what he warned is now coming true. He was a realist, not a racist.

[MadDuck]

One reason they are here is votes for Labour, FACT.

Can you please provide the "source" of this fact?

[Pussy]

The most bashed group in this country are in fact white anglo saxon protestant male businessmen.

You forgot "hetrosexual"!

[Bikernereid]

T
Go to the library and take out a book on the eminent British politician Enoch Powell. So much of what he warned is now coming true. He was a realist, not a racist.

The guy was a visionary and got a damned good hammering for it. But so many are realising now that what he said was true and not racist.

Reminds me of Machiavelli, who also had common sense and could see past the end of his nose. And he was vilified for what he wrote.

[rainman]

Sigh. So many things wrong with this thread, I don't know where to start.

So maybe I'll just leave you hetero male WASP businessmen to the inevitable circlejerk that this will become, and go off and do something useful. Y'all have fun, now....

:tugger:

[98tls]

The guy was a visionary and got a damned good hammering for it. But so many are realising now that what he said was true and not racist.

Reminds me of Machiavelli, who also had common sense and could see past the end of his nose. And he was vilified for what he wrote. Wahoo...............to be honest its hard to believe i am reading this on KB.Any sense of reality on here is often seen as racist.

[oldrider]

The guy was a visionary and got a damned good hammering for it. But so many are realising now that what he said was true and not racist.

Reminds me of Machiavelli, who also had common sense and could see past the end of his nose. And he was vilified for what he wrote.

You mean the author of "The Prince" was he the same Machiavilli? :confused: I have that little booklet somewhere! :shifty: John.

[Bikernereid]

You mean the author of "The Prince" was he the same Machiavilli? :confused: I have that little booklet somewhere! :shifty: John.

Yep The Price is my fave book ever and The Art of War is a bloody good book too. Love Machiavelli he is my hero and if anyone ever calls me Machiavelli I take it is a compliment rather than the intended insult.

[Skyryder]

Yep The Price is my fave book ever and The Art of War is a bloody good book too. Love Machiavelli he is my hero and if anyone ever calls me Machiavelli I take it is a compliment rather than the intended insult.


Try the test.

http://bob.bob.bofh.org/~robm/misc/MachIV.html


Skyyrder

[Skyryder]

You mean the author of "The Prince" was he the same Machiavilli? :confused: I have that little booklet somewhere! :shifty: John.


I read it many years ago and was one of the main reasons that I have the political philosophy that I have, not the only one but one of them.. It must be remembered that the Prince was written at a time of Florentine power and the states city states were in coflict with each other. The Prince was written as a treast for a dictatorial monarchy and gave the methods used for gaining and keeping power.

Machiavilli believed that is is best to be a ruler who is both loved and feared but if you can not be both it is better to be feared. A concept that I disagree with.

The Prince was not written for a democracy and the philosphy behind the Prince has no place in such a system of government.
Skyyrder

[Bikernereid]

Try the test.

http://bob.bob.bofh.org/~robm/misc/MachIV.html


Skyyrder

I did the bugger didn't evaluate but was interesting to go through.

[Skyryder]

I did the bugger didn't evaluate but was interesting to go through.

Did not do it myself as I was going to in the morning but if it don't work not much point.

Skyryder

[Sanx]

It's not about only allowing the rich and powerful a vote; it's about only allowing votes to people who contribute to society. NZ, like most western countries, already practices extremely selective denial of voting privilege. Prisoners cannot vote.

Why not extend that to the terminally unemployed or unemployable? If you don't work (say, for 12 months prior to the election) and you're not on sickness or disability benefit or a pension, you don't get a vote. Simple.

Whilst I don't agree with Robert Taylor's Enoch Powell references (the bloke was a racist fucker who hasn't been posthumously been proven right. His predictions of inter-race wars resulting in rivers of blood did not some true. Whilst there are racial problems in the UK, don't forget Powell's targets were West Indians, not Indian sub-continent Muslims) there certainly is abuse of the refugee system in NZ, not helped by courts who allow convicted criminals to stay after release from jail just because sending them home might upset their parents.

And I have some knowledge of what I speak; my wife arrived in NZ (as a minor) with her family after her father was taken into Aden prison in Tehran for daring to criticise the authorities. Only massive bribes to a corrupt guard managed to get him out. My wife is now a qualified translator / interpreter who has done work for both the Department of Immigration and the Refugee Status Appeals Authority. Almost without exception, every Iranian she's translated for (theoretically, she's independent, but you know what I mean) has been lying. Luckily, it's been fairly obvious to the authorities that they have been.

But the blame for some immigrants having no respect for New Zealand's laws and customs can be laid squarely at the blame of Labour and their lefty politically-correct cohorts. The PC-brigade insist that everyone else's culture should be respected and honoured. The PC-brigade insist that we, NZers, should change the way we behave so as not offend immigrants. It is the PC-brigade who pander to the desires of immigrants instead of, quite reasonably, insisting that recent immigrants live up to the very old adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Oddly, you'll often find more liberal immigrants fully support the belief that it is their responsibility to fit in with the customs and laws of the host country, not the other way round. My wife is one of the most scathing opponents of the bludging nature of some immigrants - but then she and her family have worked their arses off since almost the day they arrived. When they landed in NZ, they had a small rucksack each containing their belongings and a couple of hundred US dollars. They received emergency assistance for less than four weeks and since then, have no claimed a cent off the state in benefits. They deserve their NZ citizenship and refuge in NZ, as do many other immigrants and refugees. But the ones we hear about are the ones that are not deserving, and they tend to give the rest a bad name.

[Naki Rat]

I did the bugger didn't evaluate but was interesting to go through.

:( What she said

[Motu]

Unfortunately Ahmed is not here to defend himself - but Geoff is here in numbers to press his case.Carry on with the prosecution all you Geoffs.

[Robert Taylor]

It's not about only allowing the rich and powerful a vote; it's about only allowing votes to people who contribute to society. NZ, like most western countries, already practices extremely selective denial of voting privilege. Prisoners cannot vote.

Why not extend that to the terminally unemployed or unemployable? If you don't work (say, for 12 months prior to the election) and you're not on sickness or disability benefit or a pension, you don't get a vote. Simple.

Whilst I don't agree with Robert Taylor's Enoch Powell references (the bloke was a racist fucker who hasn't been posthumously been proven right. His predictions of inter-race wars resulting in rivers of blood did not some true. Whilst there are racial problems in the UK, don't forget Powell's targets were West Indians, not Indian sub-continent Muslims) there certainly is abuse of the refugee system in NZ, not helped by courts who allow convicted criminals to stay after release from jail just because sending them home might upset their parents.

And I have some knowledge of what I speak; my wife arrived in NZ (as a minor) with her family after her father was taken into Aden prison in Tehran for daring to criticise the authorities. Only massive bribes to a corrupt guard managed to get him out. My wife is now a qualified translator / interpreter who has done work for both the Department of Immigration and the Refugee Status Appeals Authority. Almost without exception, every Iranian she's translated for (theoretically, she's independent, but you know what I mean) has been lying. Luckily, it's been fairly obvious to the authorities that they have been.

But the blame for some immigrants having no respect for New Zealand's laws and customs can be laid squarely at the blame of Labour and their lefty politically-correct cohorts. The PC-brigade insist that everyone else's culture should be respected and honoured. The PC-brigade insist that we, NZers, should change the way we behave so as not offend immigrants. It is the PC-brigade who pander to the desires of immigrants instead of, quite reasonably, insisting that recent immigrants live up to the very old adage "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Oddly, you'll often find more liberal immigrants fully support the belief that it is their responsibility to fit in with the customs and laws of the host country, not the other way round. My wife is one of the most scathing opponents of the bludging nature of some immigrants - but then she and her family have worked their arses off since almost the day they arrived. When they landed in NZ, they had a small rucksack each containing their belongings and a couple of hundred US dollars. They received emergency assistance for less than four weeks and since then, have no claimed a cent off the state in benefits. They deserve their NZ citizenship and refuge in NZ, as do many other immigrants and refugees. But the ones we hear about are the ones that are not deserving, and they tend to give the rest a bad name.

Thats a very fair summary of whats going on in this country. I also have no problem with immigrants who are prepared to work and contribute rather than take take take. My sister was for a time teaching English to Chinese immigrants and time and time again came across comments such as ''Helen Clark is a wonderful lady, she helps us a lot'' You dont have to open your eyes very wide to realise that a significant proportion of more recent immigration has deliberately been low grade immigrants dependent on some form of handouts and by implication far more predisposed to vote for the hand that is feeding them. I.e this shonky outgoing Labour Government playing God with the excessive taxes and levies raped off us.
I have 0% empathy for Clark and her pygmies and genuinely hope they burn in hell.

[idleidolidyll]

I see, so then white collar criminals with masters degrees who rip off thousands of ordinary Kiwis should also have their votes devalued?

your original post is nothing less than racist claptrap

[Robert Taylor]

The problem with hardcore socialists is they are so polarised that they think that their way is the only way. Everyone / anyone that doesnt subscribe to their way of thinking is labelled a fu..wit.
Ive said it before and Ill say it again, it is entirly possible to have conservative principles balanced with social compassion. What I have also consistently said is that there are people at both ends of the scale ripping the system off, from long term social welfare beneficiaries through to multinationals treating their production workers little better than battery hens.
We all contribute to this sad state of affairs through our own indifference.

[Jantar]

I see, so then white collar criminals with masters degrees who rip off thousands of ordinary Kiwis should also have their votes devalued?

your original post is nothing less than racist claptrap

Correct. While in prison they are not permitted to vote. So why is that racist?

[Motu]

White collar criminals go to jail!? I'd like to see that.And when they are not in jail ripping off millions of dollars from gullible people....they can still vote.

[jafar]

This whole thread is starting to smell like 1984.:jerry:
All are equal , but some are more equal than others :doh:

Who's to say that there are not criminals & bludgers out there amongst the great unwashed that can vote simply because their crimes have yet to see the light of day?
1 man 1 vote is a simplistic but seemingly effective way of electing failed used car salesmen into a position of power over us.
I suspect that future generations will look back in wonder that we of the "information generation" actually allowed politicians to run a country.

[Owl]

Just how many votes should Geoff, the tertiary educated (haven’t been caught yet paedophile) get then?:msn-wink:

[jrandom]

... we of the "information generation" actually allowed politicians to run a country.

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." - George Bernard Shaw

One way or the other, representative democracy is still better than any of the alternatives.

And you're picking on the wrong bunch with regards to immigrants.

The Maoris are the real problem.

[Ocean1]

That'll fix the problem. :cool:


"No representation without taxation".

[MSTRS]

The Maoris are the real problem.


One dollar one vote
That'll fix the problem.


Really? Just pop down to WINZ for a grant....

[jafar]

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." - George Bernard Shaw

One way or the other, representative democracy is still better than any of the alternatives.

And you're picking on the wrong bunch with regards to immigrants.

The Maoris are the real problem.

I suspect George is right & we are getting what we deserve.
While democracy is a great ideal, we still have to put up with politicians & they are the bulk of the problem right there. They are the lowest form of life, ranking even below 'used car salesmen'.

I'm not picking on immigrants, nowhere ever in KB have I ever said anything about immigrants. But now that you mention them,most are hardworking decent people that are doing the best they can with the little they came here with. Their work ethic is to be admired as is their sense of family.

Maori's are not the problem either, it would be a shallow person to think they were, the REAL problem is a culture of dependence on handouts & charity. While SOME Maori have been guilty of this they are by no means the only ones, there are plenty of people of other races & cultures that are doing it too.:2guns:

[Toaster]

Just send the little shit to prison for Statutory rape :dodge:

I'm a bit slow today and initially read your post as meaning he would go to jail to get raped... don't you just love prison justice?!

[Toaster]

... the REAL problem is a culture of dependence on handouts & charity. While SOME Maori have been guilty of this they are by no means the only ones, there are plenty of people of other races & cultures that are doing it too.:2guns:

I completely agree that there is a culture of dependence and would go further to say it is a demanded expectation springboarded off past wrongs.

I would differ though to say that there is only one race - the human race; merely subdivided by thousands of years passing in time, developed languages and cultures, varied degrees of physical adaption to the natural local environment and the historically (very) isolating factor of geography.

[firefighter]

perhaps if you serve time you lose the right to vote could be a viable option?

[jafar]

I completely agree that there is a culture of dependence and would go further to say it is a demanded expectation springboarded off past wrongs.

For some Maori yes it seems so


I would differ though to say that there is only one race - the human race; merely subdivided by thousands of years passing in time, developed languages and cultures, varied degrees of physical adaption to the natural local environment and the historically (very) isolating factor of geography.

Jesus Christ , it has been a while since you took the bike out :blink:

[Toaster]

Correct. While in prison they are not permitted to vote. So why is that racist?

I agree, it nullifies his rather emotional response pulling out the race card yet again.

Just to add to the thread my 5c, convicted criminals currently serving a sentence have pretty much as many if not more protective rights as anyone else. It would be good to see them lose more than just their right to liberty in jail.

Taking the right to vote away from all people who had past convictions however would be a very difficult issue morally as they have effectively served their punishment and have the same rights as anyone else upon release into society.

It would be too simplistic to be fair on the myriad of different people and "crimes" committed. Would a 60 year old businessman be any less a valid voter because smacked his naughty kid 40 years ago and got a conviction for it, compared to a repeat offender (say burglar) who has a life of crime past present and probably in the future?

[Toaster]

Jesus Christ , it has been a while since you took the bike out :blink:

That was my politically correct forum friendly response. Hear my actual response after a few beers on a hot day after a good bike ride!

[jafar]

That was my politically correct forum friendly response. Hear my actual response after a few beers on a hot day after a good bike ride!

First we have to find a hot day:cold:

[Swoop]

Gerrymandering: Drawing of electoral district lines in a way that gives advantage to a particular political party.
This is the reason why we have a labourite sect as gubbinment at the moment. The boundaries of south Auckland were set up to benefit (pardon the entendre) the Looney Labourite sect.

I see, so then white collar criminals with masters degrees who rip off thousands of ordinary Kiwis should also have their votes devalued?
Taking a stab in the dark here. Are you referring to the recent conviction on 23 charges of fraud, of an Auckland City Council person?

"No representation without taxation".
The churches will need to comply on that one!

[Indiana_Jones]

Don't give the Untermenschen a vote!

-Indy

[Bikernereid]

Saw these guys at a Sca festival and it just reminded me of some of the peeps on here:innocent: You just need to swap the Union Jack for the NZ flag.

[Owl]

Saw these guys at a Sca festival and it just reminded me of some of the peeps on here:innocent: You just need to swap the Union Jack for the NZ flag.

They're not skinheads! They're bad fashion statements!:lol:

[Bikernereid]

They're not skinheads! They're bad fashion statements!:lol:

Not skinheads? Please explain as they look like all the skinheads I used to drink with.

[Naki Rat]

Saw these guys at a Sca festival and it just reminded me of some of the peeps on here:innocent: You just need to swap the Union Jack for the NZ flag.

http://www.rlslog.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/02.jpg

Oops, wrong thread:whistle:

[Bikernereid]

Oops, wrong thread:whistle:


Seems strange for Russel Crowe to have a Union Jack patch. I thought you all hated us Colonial Oppressors!!

[enigma51]

Seems strange for Russel Crowe to have a Union Jack patch. I thought you all hated us Colonial Oppressors!!

I cant hate you :oi-grr: your to nice ......... even for a oppressors

[Littleman]

Let’s look at another scenario and I’ll try to remove much of the ‘prejudicial’ factors(barring ageism)out of it as people seem to stumble with this on the first step.


You are a primary school teacher taking 30 kids on a school bus trip.

Unfortunately a bomb is discovered on this bus and the only option to disable it is by either cutting the red wire or the black wire.

Bizarrely and luckily the bus driver is a recently retired demolitions expert from the army.

You find yourself in charge and having to shoulder the responsibility of how to deal with the situation.

Now whilst all the 30 kids are chanting in unison “cut the red wire! cut the red wire!” because it is a nice cherry red, the bus driver looks you in the eye and with a calm voice sagely says to you “cut the black wire”.

What are you going to do?

Actually have a vote on it?

[nodrog]

What are you going to do?

id get the fuck off the bus and let the driver deal with it, hes the ex demolitions expert from the army.

[Dilligaf]

Why not extend that to the terminally unemployed or unemployable? If you don't work (say, for 12 months prior to the election) and you're not on sickness or disability benefit or a pension, you don't get a vote. Simple.



Yeah WHY NOT????:gob:
Gee, I guess this means that I am not able to vote in your system. Despite the fact that my "work" is voluntary and I would do approximately 25 hours a week working for other people without a paycheck means that officially because I am "unemployed" that my voice does not count.
Fine... :nono: teach your own children to read properly then :shake:

[Oscar]

I see, so then white collar criminals with masters degrees who rip off thousands of ordinary Kiwis should also have their votes devalued?

your original post is nothing less than racist claptrap

Yours is as much nonsense.
Your use of a cliched stereotype "white collar criminals with masters degrees" is gibberish. If they are actual criminals, and inside, then they can't vote.
Perhaps you'd like to present your argument in cogent fashion.

[Oscar]

The most bashed group in this country are in fact white anglo saxon protestant male businessmen. That is NOT in any way intended as a racist statement.
I say send the Somalian and all his brothers and sisters back to where they came from. One reason they are here is votes for Labour, FACT.
Go to the library and take out a book on the eminent British politician Enoch Powell. So much of what he warned is now coming true. He was a realist, not a racist.

Enoch Powell?
This does you no credit, Robert.
You're better than that...

[Ixion]

That'll fix the problem. :cool:


"No representation without taxation".


Would you then in logic, extend that to granting voting rights to corporations (distinct from their shareholders). Since, after all, they pay taxes . "No taxation without representation". And overseas corporations pay, collectively, a LOT of tax.

[Mr Merde]

...Anybody know (apart from dictatorships) where one person doesn’t mean one vote?

...


Florida where even death doesnt prohibit you from having your opinion recorded by a proxy voter but having a name similar to a convicted felon does.

[Sanx]

Yeah WHY NOT????:gob:
Gee, I guess this means that I am not able to vote in your system. Despite the fact that my "work" is voluntary and I would do approximately 25 hours a week working for other people without a paycheck means that officially because I am "unemployed" that my voice does not count.
Fine... :nono: teach your own children to read properly then :shake:

There are always exceptions to such rules. If you do voluntary work for 25 hours a week, then there's possibly a way that could get taken into account. My comments was aimed at the legions of lazy fuckwits who do absolutely nothing all day other than drink the piss and spark up the smokes that their weekly benefit has paid for.

From the last line, I take it you're working as a teacher's aide or something similar in a school or pre-school? Well, if you're volunteering your time to a state school, and then getting paid by the State, there's a roundabout employer / employee relationship there. However, any such rules about taking volunteer work into account would have to be strict enough to prevent people from (ab)using their enrollment in sports clubs or churches and claiming all time they spend at the place is 'volunteer' work.

P.S. I have every intention of teaching my own kids to read properly, when I and the wife get around to having any. And you can be bloody certain they'll be reading just fine before they go to school.

[Robert Taylor]

Enoch Powell?
This does you no credit, Robert.
You're better than that...

No honestly, have you studied him ''overall'' rather than just remembering him for his ''rivers of blood speech'' ? A very very intelligent man and a war hero.

Try this one then, Michael Heseltine. Self made man ( Haymarket publishing etc ) A consumate Tory politician with a practical social conscience, didnt get along with Maggie. I believe David Cameron ( Britains next priminister ) is in the same mould.

[Oscar]

No honestly, have you studied him ''overall'' rather than just remembering him for his ''rivers of blood speech'' ? A very very intelligent man and a war hero.

Try this one then, Michael Heseltine. Self made man ( Haymarket publishing etc ) A consumate Tory politician with a practical social conscience, didnt get along with Maggie. I believe David Cameron ( Britains next priminister ) is in the same mould.

There's a hell of a difference between Heseltine and Powell.

Powell's predictions were in the main, wrong.

[Ocean1]

Would you then in logic, extend that to granting voting rights to corporations (distinct from their shareholders). Since, after all, they pay taxes . "No taxation without representation". And overseas corporations pay, collectively, a LOT of tax.

Overseas corperations? Not individuals? Not citizens?


Fuck off, what's logical about that?

[Bikernereid]

There's a hell of a difference between Heseltine and Powell.

Powell's predictions were in the main, wrong.

I live in the UK and we have so much racial tension here you would not believe it. Why has the BNP been doing so well at local elections and why has the SNP done so well recently too?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1702799.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/immigration-may-cause-race-riots-howard-says-495402.html

I being a humanitarian Conservative have very strong issues on immigration, however I am not a racists. I believe that so many of the problems can be laid at the floor of the politicians. We wanted cheap labour and shipped in immigrants like it was going out of fashion. Now we have the same situation with the expansion of the EU. When you have towns where 50% is made up of foreign national it causes problems, and when you have signs in businesses saying NO ENGLISH it has a tendancy to piss Brits/ English off! Can't think why tho!

I have no problem with people who are hard workers but in a capitalist society where so many immigrants will work illegally for less than the minimum wage and live with about 16 to a house how can Joe public compete and support his/her own family. It is hard enough with minumum wage for over 21s being set at £5.52 but with immigrant coming over to work for £3ish how can British people survive? And when EU nationals can come into the UK and claim child benefits for children living out of the UK, that can't be right!

As the credit crunch hits more people and they start losing thier homes I think you will find that race riots will start again! And Enoch will have been right yet again.

[Robert Taylor]

I live in the UK and we have so much racial tension here you would not believe it. Why has the BNP been doing so well at local elections and why has the SNP done so well recently too?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1702799.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/immigration-may-cause-race-riots-howard-says-495402.html

I being a humanitarian Conservative have very strong issues on immigration, however I am not a racists. I believe that so many of the problems can be laid at the floor of the politicians. We wanted cheap labour and shipped in immigrants like it was going out of fashion. Now we have the same situation with the expansion of the EU. When you have towns where 50% is made up of foreign national it causes problems, and when you have signs in businesses saying NO ENGLISH it has a tendancy to piss Brits/ English off! Can't think why tho!

I have no problem with people who are hard workers but in a capitalist society where so many immigrants will work illegally for less than the minimum wage and live with about 16 to a house how can Joe public compete and support his/her own family. It is hard enough with minumum wage for over 21s being set at £5.52 but with immigrant coming over to work for £3ish how can British people survive? And when EU nationals can come into the UK and claim child benefits for children living out of the UK, that can't be right!

As the credit crunch hits more people and they start losing thier homes I think you will find that race riots will start again! And Enoch will have been right yet again.

Having lived and worked in the UK for nearly five years I was very much aware of the racial tensions, these manifested themselves in the Southall riots when I was there. I can well remember helping to board up the shop windows even though where I worked was across the other side of London.
My grandfather was English and fought in the Somme, my father in the RNZAF, seconded to the RAF and stationed in England during WW2. Despite the connection where your colonials helped you guys out in the two great conflicts I am always gobsmacked at going through immigration into the UK. EU members ( including Germans ) go through the fast-track EU lanes. Conversely us poor colonials with NZ or Aussie passports get lumped in with the rest in the slow ''alien'' lanes.
In spite of that annoyance I have a great affection for your country and periodically purchase an international circulation of the Daily Telegraph to keep up with what is going on. Okay, thats a Tory sympathetic publication but it does look to me that the Labour Government over there has largely squandered the many positive gains made by Margaret Thatchers administrations. It also seems that we are suffering here from the same debilatating madness of social conditioning and political correctness.
Britain would have been a better place had they taken heed of Enoch Powells warnings, I am convinced of that. Before anyone here tries to compare Winston Peters with Enoch, forget it, they are not in the same league.

[idleidolidyll]

The trouble with fascists and particularly conservative fascists: is that they always think they are right and believe they should have the right to dictate to the rest of the population based on their own narrow minded principles.

Thankfully socialists and other left wingers invented democracy so these dipsticks don't have the control they crave

[Flatcap]

The trouble with fascists and particularly conservative fascists: is that they always think they are right and believe they should have the right to dictate to the rest of the population based on their own narrow minded principles.

Thankfully socialists and other left wingers invented democracy so these dipsticks don't have the control they crave

But I thought you said the filthy capitalists controlled democracy?

[Robert Taylor]

But I thought you said the filthy capitalists controlled democracy?

Some of us arent as confused or as brazenly polarised.

[Oscar]

The trouble with fascists and particularly conservative fascists: is that they always think they are right and believe they should have the right to dictate to the rest of the population based on their own narrow minded principles.

Thankfully socialists and other left wingers invented democracy so these dipsticks don't have the control they crave

But you are always right aren't you?
And the Left never dictates, does it...?

[scracha]

I live in the UK and we have so much racial tension here you would not believe it. Why has the BNP been doing so well at local elections and why has the SNP done so well recently too?


Don't compare the SNP to the BNP. Scotland wanting independence has fuck all to do with Polish immigrants.




Try this one then, Michael Heseltine. Self made man ( Haymarket publishing etc ) A consumate Tory politician with a practical social conscience, didnt get along with Maggie. I believe David Cameron ( Britains next priminister ) is in the same mould.

The same bloke who said that children like me* should have been forced into adoption. If that's your idea of a practical social conscience then maybe you'll regard Enoch Powell as a liberal.

*those from single parent families.

Self made man? He went to one of the oldest and most egalitarian public schools in England before going to Oxford and then starting his business with his inheritance.

[avgas]

I put my faith in the Darwinism box.
Otherwise there is no point in striving for achievement really.

[Dilligaf]

I put my faith in the Darwinism box.
Otherwise there is no point in striving for achievement really.

Hmm but answer me this. Most here would subscribe to Darwinist beliefs... If you truly believe in survival of the fittest, why do we have beneficiaries?
:wacko:

[Mr Merde]

... If you truly believe in survival of the fittest, why do we have beneficiaries?
:wacko:


How else are we expected to measure our own self worth? :msn-wink:

[Murray]

Why should a bottom of the heap child abuser/rapist/murderer that has been released from jail get the same rights as their victim, or those in society who have had to pay for the misadventures. Same goes for people who have stayed on the benefit 'seeking' employment for the last X years.



Because if you didn't you wouldnt have a Labour Party!!!!! and you do need an opposition!!!

[alanzs]

Hmm but answer me this. Most here would subscribe to Darwinist beliefs... If you truly believe in survival of the fittest, why do we have beneficiaries?
:wacko:

Or seat belts, or helmets, or child-proof caps on medicines and toxic chemicals... Let the strong survive.

There is, albeit small, a school of thought that would like to make a correlation of the denigration of the gene pool to the introduction of child proof caps on medicines and toxic household products. In the old days, Stupid Curious Kid ingested the toxic chemicals/medicines and died, therefore not passing on their "flawed" genetic material to others. With these child protection devices, they don't stop their Stupid Curious genetic material from passing on to others. Hence, we have a whole population of Stupid Curious people, breeding ad infinitum.

Famous last words "Hey, watch this..."

Just a thought about Darwinism.... :devil2:

[Robert Taylor]

Don't compare the SNP to the BNP. Scotland wanting independence has fuck all to do with Polish immigrants.



The same bloke who said that children like me* should have been forced into adoption. If that's your idea of a practical social conscience then maybe you'll regard Enoch Powell as a liberal.

*those from single parent families.

Self made man? He went to one of the oldest and most egalitarian public schools in England before going to Oxford and then starting his business with his inheritance.

At no time should it be interpreted that one has to blanketly agree with everything that Enoch Powell said. That doesnt stop me having immense admiration for the man.
Adoption is a subject that I am painfully aware of, my Father was adopted and didnt even know he was until he was 21 years old! He only found out when he accepted his commission in the RAF. He never spoke of it but it was a scar that he carried for the remainder of his life. Despite that his adoptive parents gave him a very good start in life, as many adoptive parents do.
I am a National voter but at no time do I agree with all of their policies, especially the more liberal ones. Heck Ive even got respect for a couple of people in the outgoing Government, but Id never ever vote for them. My local MP is Harry Duynhoven, a charming guy to talk to but he knows only too well that hes not getting my vote. I just happen to agree with him on the need for compulsory motor vehicle insurance, for example.
As for Michael Heseltine, its no more his fault that he was born into relative prosperity than it is someone being born into poverty. I beg to differ that he started his business empire from a rather large bag of money. The fact is whatever he started with ( which I believe was relatively modest ) he made into a much larger bag of money. He did that and carried people along with him, I applaud him for that. As a Conservative MP he was very effective and was the driving force behind the regeneration of London Docklands and a few other projects in some more Northern English cities. Moreover, he had the courage of his convictions by resigning over a point of principle re the Westland affair. I think it is fair to say he was a good pin up model for the face of ''compassionate Conservatism'' I know in saying that there are a couple of very blinkered socialists on this site that have serious trouble believing such exists. I look at politicians in England such as Michael Heseltine and David Cameron and even ( horror of horrors! ) a couple of the Labour people there and think ''we could do with a few of those here''
That our electoral system allow such MPs as Sue Bradford is an embarrassment to our country. I much much preferred Max Bradford, he didnt pull any punches nor suffer fools.

[svr]

Hmm but answer me this. Most here would subscribe to Darwinist beliefs... If you truly believe in survival of the fittest, why do we have beneficiaries?
:wacko:

Because humans have evolved as social, moral animals.

[svr]

''compassionate Conservatism'' I know in saying that there are a couple of very blinkered socialists on this site that have serious trouble believing such exists

A little disturbing to read the antidemocratic sentiment, racism, and generally bigotted, elitist, divisive hatred that has surfaced through this thread.
Could someone please demonstrate how this is `compassionate' and not just `standard' Conservatism?

[davereid]

A little disturbing to read the antidemocratic sentiment, racism, and generally bigotted, elitist, divisive hatred that has surfaced through this thread.
Could someone please demonstrate how this is `compassionate' and not just `standard' Conservatism?

Democracy is merely mob rule... it only becomes of value when it has limits. IMHO those rules should prevent government using violence against non-violent people. Sadly, our current system gives the mob, the right to pillage as they see fit.

Racisim - bigotted, elitist, divisive hatred ? Not evidenced in the thread anymore than evidenced in the real world. ie if maori or any other self-identifed group constitute 6% of the population but 25% of benefits are paid to them, they can expect 25% of the bleating...

Compassionate ? Thats what you get when you get charity. When people give freely. Our current system is way-more than compassionate, under any government.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest we should let people be left without support, or assistance.

All I have seen is the suggestion that we expect work for that support. I can't really define that as a bad thing, given that its how those who pay the benefits get their money.

[svr]

Racisim - bigotted, elitist, divisive hatred ? Not evidenced in the thread anymore than evidenced in the real world.

Exactly


ie if maori or any other self-identifed group constitute 6% of the population but 25% of benefits are paid to them, they can expect 25% of the bleating...

Show me a recently colonized indigeneous population that doesn't need help? Preventing the completion of Maori cultural extinction will cost a few Imperial dollars, and I for one am happy to contribute

Compassionate ? Thats what you get when you get charity. When people give freely. Our current system is way-more than compassionate, under any government.
Charity, along with pity, is what the rich give to the needy. Compassion is a little more humane

I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest we should let people be left without support, or assistance.
No, just a few basic human rights such as democratic participation!

All I have seen is the suggestion that we expect work for that support. I can't really define that as a bad thing, given that its how those who pay the benefits get their money.

True - every able body should be engaged in reasonable work (or upskilling).