Training

[dpex]

The mentor programme has obvious connections with training programmes. Ergo, mentor recommends a training programme or ten. BTW: The reference is bike-rider training, not potty.

[James Deuce]

No it doesn't. Mentoring isn't connected to training. By that logic LTNZ is connected to training, training that they have publicly denounced.

If you want training look in the Yellow Pages.

Need training? Everyone needs training. Very few get it. Even fewer seek it again after one course. Most think that circulating a racetrack against a stopwatch run by their "girlfriend" is all the training they need. Being taught how to ride quickly around a racetrack is the type of "over-confidence" training that Government organisations hate with a passion, and with good reason.

A lot of the training courses I've attended don't spend enough time actually on the road. Or off road, depending on what you're being trained in.

I want to know what to do when a Concrete mixer changes across 2 lanes abruptly, cutting me off and crushing me against a barrier. I want to know how to avoid even getting into that position. I really don't think that shaving 2/10ths of a lap off Taupo (or Eastern Creek - WTF, this is NZ, not Aus - are you A Merkin or something?) will help me there.

[wysper]

I didnt answer the poll but...

the only "training" i have had was the basic skills course to get your motorcycle license and that was about 20 years ago.
I think training would be very useful. IT is a matter of knowing what is good training and what is not. Pretty tough in some ways.

I thought track training would have been good but never considered the down sides that James mentions.

So I don't really know what training I would have, but even at 36 I reckon I would benefit massively from good training.

[Bikernereid]

I am hoping to sponge as much knowledge from as many peeps as will take the time to share their experiences and riding ability with me.

[James Deuce]

Some of those peeps have really bad habits that look like a good idea on the surface (like me) but in reality those habits have developed with constant practice and can only be undone by an objective trainer within the scope of a training forum.

It's taken me years but I can lock the front and recover without shitting myself (for instance). That used to be an automatic crash. I'm also (finally) not going for the brakes in every dodgy situation. The list is endless. Sometimes good mates are the wrong people to ask advice from for no other reason than they have their head together and you don't.

[Pwalo]

Eastern Creek? Who's pinched this survey from across the ditch?

Seriously I'm with Jim D on this one. I think there's a big difference on the training that you get at track days, and what you need to survive on the roads.

There are two sets of skills involved, riding (the mechanical side), and street awareness (actually riding on the road). I hope that makes sense, as I just wrote it down as I thought about it.

The mechanical side of things is reasonably easy to teach, and as Jim has said can always be updated, relearnt, etc.

The other part of the equation is probably more of a mental thing, and is really about getting out and building up experience. This is something that can't be taught completely but has to be aquired through practice.

Well that's what I think today.

[sinfull]

Ya make valid points JD, but it's all training ! Be it on the track, road or dirt, the only way most would learn is by experience, having to hit them pics in an emergency, then and usually only then will they think back and go, ok i might have got through that gap to the right of the concrete truck instead of sliding into him !
Biggest mistake though, is outriding yr ability, like alot have said if ya ride at 100 km ya should try emergency stop at that speed !
My biggest plug for anyone new who is learning commuting say for instance, is stay in the carpark longer, learn the bikes stopping ability, then do it in the wet, then on a white line in the wet, see what happens ! Ya have to feel what the bike does before ya can learn how to avoid/correct it !
Dpex mentioned potties, well i still have my potty moments, wont say i'm experienced, but i have experienced and still make mistakes, but learn from em !
Older and wiser now i guess and try not to out ride my ability now days !
The track is all new for me and though i aint rossie, i feel i am learning more each time i go out !
The couple of spills i have had (long time ago now), i look back and both i might have got out of, by releasing the brakes, trusting my tyres and laying it over ! Where am i learning that ?

[jrandom]

If you're not locking the front and recovering at a trackday, you're not trying hard enough.

I think James Deuce needs to take me up on a certain offer...

Trackdays have their place. That place is finding the limits of one's motorcycle's performance, so that one knows the physics envelope that one has available to work within while applying road safety principles.

Just being familiar with that physics envelope won't save you from being crushed by a concrete truck, and just being super-aware on the road won't save you if you're put into a situation that your bike could get out of, but you don't intuitively know how to take advantage of its handling and power characteristics.

Whole life balance, James-san. When it comes to learning the physics of riding a motorcycle, one trackday is worth six weeks of road riding.

See you in Taupo on 22 November!

(I'll have my licence back by then.)

[James Deuce]

The argument about the track always comes up and it just isn't relevant. There are a few people on KB who consistently travel at multiples of the speed limit and for them the track teaches them useful skills that they can apply when a cow appears on the other side of a blind bend when travelling at speed.

The problem is those people tend to be charismatic and advocate a type of riding that isn't a tenable long term approach to "real-world" motorcycling, and the motorcycle dynamics involved at 100km/hr are vastly different to those at 200 km/hr. Likewise the differences between 50 km/hr and 100 km/hr are huge. They perpetrate the myth that track days have relevance as training days for road riding, because they learn the limits of their bike. They don't. They learn the limits of their knowledge in regard to riding quickly on a race track.

The track just isn't relevant. There's no side streets, opposing traffic, enraged soccer Mums, texting truck drivers (don't get me started) or tailgating Police. It's also really, really wide. The surface doesn't change (much) between the morning and the afternoon either. But most of all the track is about going faster and faster and a lot of people take that attitude to the road. It nearly killed me once upon a time and I'm not keen to see the myth continued.

Going to a track day would be fun, but it isn't going to teach me anything except which way Taupo goes and how much it costs to trailer a broken bike from Taupo to Wellington. People forget I've been "there" before and it was a massive mistake that I still pay for. Race or ride on the road? There are small elements of cross over but I would respectfully suggest that attempting a fulsome career in both at the same time is asking to get hurt or killed. The mental attitudes are hugely different and take massive amounts of maturity to switch between, a level most blokes don't hit until their 50s.

[sinfull]

But most of all the track is about going faster and faster and a lot of people take that attitude to the road. It nearly killed me once upon a time and I'm not keen to see the myth continued.

Personal choice there JD and respect that !
But it's not always about that !
What say you have a speed junkie (ahem) who realises he's gonna be a tempory NZer if he keeps up the antics he was doing on the road !
The track not only teaches you, you CAN get around that corner if your line has been sharpened by a rock or lane crosser, which made you stand it upright, (A lot would instantly fixate on smacking into that bank) but it can also be a fix for a junkie, so he don't go out and get said fix on the highways !

[Pwalo]

Personal choice there JD and respect that !
But it's not always about that !
What say you have a speed junkie (ahem) who realises he's gonna be a tempory NZer if he keeps up the antics he was doing on the road !
The track not only teaches you, you CAN get around that corner if your line has been sharpened by a rock or lane crosser, which made you stand it upright, (A lot would instantly fixate on smacking into that bank) but it can also be a fix for a junkie, so he don't go out and get said fix on the highways !

It's always about personnal choices. You are responsible for your own actions.

I reckon you're right about going to the track if you're wanting to learn how to get the most out of your bike, but that has nothing to do with riding on the road.

Riding on the road (well safely anyway) requires a different approach and (damn I hate these wank words) mindset.

Learning how to handle your bike will not make you a better rider per se. I still think that the most important part about riding is the mental side of things. With practice any monkey can balance throttle and clutch, trail brake, etc. If that was all that was required we'd all be queuing up for MotoGP rides.

But it's never that simple. FWIW any rider needs to master the basic mechanical skils of riding, and then build up their road craft by actually riding.

As JD has already said the road is not a race track. There are no brake markers, run off area, decent visibility. It really doesn't matter if you can leave your braking until the last possible moment if some smegger steps out in front of you, or you hit a patch of gravel.

[James Deuce]

Personal choice there JD and respect that !
But it's not always about that !
What say you have a speed junkie (ahem) who realises he's gonna be a tempory NZer if he keeps up the antics he was doing on the road !
The track not only teaches you, you CAN get around that corner if your line has been sharpened by a rock or lane crosser, which made you stand it upright, (A lot would instantly fixate on smacking into that bank) but it can also be a fix for a junkie, so he don't go out and get said fix on the highways !

That's the argument I hear all the time and it just isn't relevant. A two lane backroad is narrower than a racetrack. If you're travelling at speeds that the racetrack has taught you to cope with then you're doomed if you apply it on the road.

You need to learn relevant skills for the relevant environment. Training needs to be specific, not a generic lap the race track until you drop session with a bit of "advice" from a racer or trackday junkie.

A "speed junkie" either learns that it hurts to the point of nearly dying and changes their ways or dies. Seen it time and again, and lived it more than a little bit. If you're speed junkie take it to the track and keep it there.

[Virago]

The mentor programme has obvious connections with training programmes...

No it doesn't.

[Trudes]

I know bugger all, but my 2c worth....
I enjoy trackdays and go for the fun factor but also to try things that I don't feel confident practicing on the road.
I have been told many times that if I just sped up a bit I could move up to the medium group, but that's not why I'm there (and I'm sure that pisses others off who ride small CC bikes who are pushing their machine to try and get down the straights and see me just cruising along on my 900 and think "she should be caneing that thing").
I tend to ride the track a bit like it's a road (minus of course all the potential dangers of the road, cars, sheep, oil (usually), other arseholes (sometimes)), and practice good lines, braking techniques, weighting the pegs etc without the dangers of a car booting around the corner on my side of the road.
The beauty of the track is you can get the feel of the bike under heavy braking at speed, how the bike feels when you tip it in just a little further each time you go around the same corner again and again etc, all in a relatively safe environment, and when you're sitting in the pits you can think about your riding, what did and didn't work and give yourself something to think about and practice next session so that it may start to become a habit without the added thinking of being run over by a truck.
I find it improves my riding on the road, repetition works, but the only way to really be prepared for road riding is to get out there and ride it at a limit that suits your experience, skills and confidence. My motto on the road (especially the back country roads where wandering stock and tractors pulling out of driveways etc are my main concerns) is to only ride as fast as you think you can stop.
But like I said, I don't know anything.;)

[James Deuce]

I used to think that too Trudes.

I can spot people who've used Trackdays to "improve" their cornering on the road. They usually brake really late and turn in early, setting their apex speed instead of their corner entry speed and dangling their upper body over the centre line. There's a chap on KB, rides a GTR1400 Kwaka. Beautiful signature picture but he's obviously had most of his bike over the centre line in the middle of the corner because it's still mostly over the centre line on the exit.

Nobody seems to rate roadcraft any more. It seems it's all about braking extra hard, cornering extra hard, getting on the gas early, and weighting the pegs. Bugger all people can do a decent U-turn, change gear without lurching or smoothly change direction without it looking like they're passing a kidney stone. How many people pay attention to how they release the brakes and apply the throttle? How many know what the speed limit is at a school crossing, or the speed where their bike transitions from steering where the bars point to countersteering? Or that the rear brake is equally vital in slow speed stuff as it is for loading the front end at speed?

The habits that they pick up on the track with out worrying about that truck often get them run over by that truck.

The point is, good riding technique and good riding habits go hand in hand. They aren't mutually exclusive as the trackday crowd seem to think. The terms of reference are vastly different for each environment. The "improve your road skills at the track" line is just a marketing tool that appeals to the ego, and makes track owners and trackday organisers money.

[Trudes]

Good points Jim. I agree and it gives me the shits when I follow people who hang over the white line, I'm always just waiting for a truck to come round that corner and knock their block off!!
I guess it comes down to the attitude thing again. If you go to trackdays with the intention of merely getting faster so you can ride on the road faster then you probably will achieve that.... until you have an accident.
You're right about the late braking etc, I've learnt through trackdays that I can brake late, just before turning in, but don't do that on the road as I prefer to get my corner speed down to a speed that I feel I might be able to avoid a hazard if I have to, whereas on the track there is probably never going to be that hazard there, the track also teaches you nothing about blind corners, as there are none (that I have seen).
As I said I only use it to brush up on my basic riding techniques (smooth throttle control is my main practice drill) and to have a bit of fun in a fairly safe environment.
I always get a giggle out of the people who go like the clappers down the straights and then crawl around the corners and wonder if they ride like that on the road too, maybe they're practicing something... what I don't know.
I always remember Bruce telling me that the best riders are the ones that can keep a constant, smooth and controlled speed, not the ones who pile down every straight piece of road and then hit the picks on the corners and then give the throttle a massive twist on the exit. (Not good for the tyres and suspension either) A good drill I find is to ride like you have a pillion on board, you want to make the ride as smooth and comfortable as you can for them so they don't unbalance the bike or hit you in the back of the head. :)

[Jantar]

Exactly. Trackdays can be good training for the road if used the way Trudes describes. But compare these two quotes:


I can spot people who've used Trackdays to "improve" their cornering on the road. They usually brake really late and turn in early, setting their apex speed instead of their corner entry speed and dangling their upper body over the centre line.....


I was following a bloke with a Highlanders flag on the back of his bike and the number plate SRJYM. What a good rider he was – hardly surprising from a fellow Highlanders supporter. He didn’t touch the brakes all the way from Wairoa to Napier and rode at a very good pace.

Now, which is the better rider? I know which one I'd rather be riding with.

[MyGSXF]

So I don't really know what training I would have, but even at 36 I reckon I would benefit massively from good training.

I would thoroughly recommend you (& everyone else!! :msn-wink:) pay a visit to Andrew & Lynne at "Roadsafe" in Wellington!! :yes:

http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/

I've done several of their rider training courses over the past 3 years & they are totally worth every penny!! :first:

Topics covered include: low speed control, braking & emergency stops, counter-steering, cornering, hazard avoidance, risk management, roadcraft etc. :niceone:

Here's a post I put up after a course a couple of years ago..

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=804098&postcount=1

Going for a "hard out blat" at trackdays, the lines & braking etc are very different from what is required on the road. :blink: however, I agree with Trudes & Jantar, that if the time can be used as a learning experience rather than a "blat" then it can be valuable! :niceone:

On the road, to be a smooth & consistent rider is more important than being fast!! :ride:

[Trudes]

Good point Jantar, maybe a good drill for all riders would be to jump on the back of the bike of the person like Jim was describing and then on the back of the Highlanders supporters bike and see which one feels safer and more in control, may change the way a few people ride and realise that it's not all about how fast you can go, eh.:scooter:

[HenryDorsetCase]

The problem is those people tend to be charismatic and advocate a type of riding that isn't a tenable long term approach to "real-world" motorcycling, and the motorcycle dynamics involved at 100km/hr are vastly different to those at 200 km/hr. Likewise the differences between 50 km/hr and 100 km/hr are huge. They perpetrate the myth that track days have relevance as training days for road riding, because they learn the limits of their bike. They don't. They learn the limits of their knowledge in regard to riding quickly on a race track.


Going to a track day would be fun, but it isn't going to teach me anything except which way Taupo goes and how much it costs to trailer a broken bike from Taupo to Wellington. People forget I've been "there" before and it was a massive mistake that I still pay for. Race or ride on the road? There are small elements of cross over but I would respectfully suggest that attempting a fulsome career in both at the same time is asking to get hurt or killed. The mental attitudes are hugely different and take massive amounts of maturity to switch between, a level most blokes don't hit until their 50s.

I agree with you entirely about the relevance of balls to the wall trackday riding not being that relevant to road riding because you need a different skillset and attitude entirely. Having said that you miss the point entirely: the point of trackdays is FUN in a controlled environment.

A lot of people do trackdays and don't lunch their bikes and have a good time doing it. Me included (well except once and I still managed to ride the bike home).

road riding is a much much more dangerous proposition.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Good point Jantar, maybe a good drill for all riders would be to jump on the back of the bike of the person like Jim was describing and then on the back of the Highlanders supporters bike and see which one feels safer and more in control, may change the way a few people ride and realise that it's not all about how fast you can go, eh.:scooter:

I hate pillioning. It scares me shitless.

[Trudes]

I hate pillioning. It scares me shitless.

Shit, SAME!!!! :laugh:
Maybe because I haven't ridden on the back of many Highlanders supporters bikes!!:msn-wink:

[HenryDorsetCase]

No it doesn't. Mentoring isn't connected to training. By that logic LTNZ is connected to training, training that they have publicly denounced.

If you want training look in the Yellow Pages.

Need training? Everyone needs training. Very few get it. Even fewer seek it again after one course. Most think that circulating a racetrack against a stopwatch run by their "girlfriend" is all the training they need. Being taught how to ride quickly around a racetrack is the type of "over-confidence" training that Government organisations hate with a passion, and with good reason.

A lot of the training courses I've attended don't spend enough time actually on the road. Or off road, depending on what you're being trained in.

I want to know what to do when a Concrete mixer changes across 2 lanes abruptly, cutting me off and crushing me against a barrier. I want to know how to avoid even getting into that position. I really don't think that shaving 2/10ths of a lap off Taupo (or Eastern Creek - WTF, this is NZ, not Aus - are you A Merkin or something?) will help me there.

You are being obtuse: I am sure you know that Eastern Creek refers to the superbike school.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Shit, SAME!!!! :laugh:
Maybe because I haven't ridden on the back of many Highlanders supporters bikes!!:msn-wink:

what about the back of a Harley down queen street?? ;)

[Trudes]

what about the back of a Harley down queen street?? ;)

HA! No, I prefer to keep my boobies inside my jacket in public!:shifty:

[James Deuce]

I agree with you entirely about the relevance of balls to the wall trackday riding not being that relevant to road riding because you need a different skillset and attitude entirely. Having said that you miss the point entirely: the point of trackdays is FUN in a controlled environment.

A lot of people do trackdays and don't lunch their bikes and have a good time doing it. Me included (well except once and I still managed to ride the bike home).

road riding is a much much more dangerous proposition.

I haven't missed the point at all. The point is the poll starter views track time as rider training. It isn't, unless the point is how to ride around a race track.

Yes the point is to have fun at a trackday. It's NOT training for riding a bike on the road.

I don't have fun at trackdays, or more correctly I do until I load the bike into alternative transport home.

This is NZ. The CSS at Eastern Creek is well outside my price range and I would imagine outside 98% of the people I know. It is probably the worst example of track time as rider training for the road. Keith Code's ideas are brilliant for the track (if you can stretch out and internalise what the over-intellectual hippy is saying) but you have to be careful about how you apply his ideas to the road. A lot of what he talks about is cutting out the mythology of motorcycling and replacing it with technique created from demonstrable and repeatable fact. All good. But it's targetted at creating super fast racers.

[Katman]

I'm all for track days - there should be more of them. As has been said they're a great form of safely releasing peoples pent up enthusiasm for speed.

The only danger with them comes when people try to put into practice on the road what they've learned on the track.

And that danger can become far greater when new and inexperience riders attend trackdays with the purported intention of "improving their riding".

[James Deuce]

Oh cool. Now I'm the Nazi.

[jrandom]

Oh cool. Now I'm the Nazi.

A little bit, aye.

:msn-wink:

Quite A Lot Of Editing:

By the way, all this theorising about trackdays is theorising. It's not driven by experience or data, and it seems to be coming (no offense, Jim) from folk who haven't actually had any decent time on the track themselves. Get out there and do it and you'll see what folk mean regarding learning to ride - after track time, what used to be 'technical' road riding becomes a breeze, giving you far more cognitive capacity available to think strategically about keeping yourself safe.

Personally, I go slow as hell on the road a lot of the time, usually because I simply can't see what's around the corner. And I like the fact that I know, from experience, that the pace I'm riding at when I can't see what's around the corner is about 30% of what the bike and I can do. It gives a far bigger margin for error when something that shouldn't be there is around the corner.

Without practice on racetracks, that 30%-of-known-capability can be more like 80%, and it's very difficult to reduce that, because it's never safe to explore the boundaries. So when shit hits the fan, you only have 20% available.

Yes, there are idiots who stay at 80% regardless and just speed up on the road as they get more time on the track, but those people are idiots. No manner of training or anything else can give them the mental horsepower to save themselves. I don't see catering for the lowest common denominator as a particularly good idea.

[James Deuce]

Doesn't stop me from calling BS when trying to label a day at the funpark training though.

[James Deuce]

A little bit, aye.

:msn-wink:

Edit: By the way, all this theorising about trackdays is theorising. It's not driven by experience or data, and it seems to be coming (no offense, Jim) from folk who haven't actually had any decent time on the track themselves. Get out there and do it and you'll see what folk mean regarding learning to ride - after track time, what used to be 'technical' road riding becomes a breeze, giving you far more cognitive capacity available to think strategically about keeping yourself safe.


HAve you read naything I wrote?

I used to race dude. I used to go to trackdays before they were called track days.

I am offended. I thought you were of the opinion that I had no track time. You haven't been listening. It's not theorising. I've buried mates who were good riders, but couldn't change from track to road and back. Geez half the Vic Club guys from when I raced are dead or paralysed. Maybe not half but it feels like it.

You need to get a grip on that arrogance chap.

[jrandom]

I used to race dude. I used to go to trackdays before they were called track days.

I know. I wasn't pointing the finger at you (swot I meant by 'no offense, Jim'). I should have been clearer, rather than just phrasing my statement in general terms.

Fact remains, though, that insisting that trackdays don't confer usable road skills constitutes catering for the lowest common denominator - the people who aren't capable of figuring out how to use the track to make themselves safer on the road.

Those people can get fucked. Track time has saved my arse on the road just plenty.

:yes:

[Katman]

Geez half the Vic Club guys from when I raced are dead

You sure that's not from old age? :whistle:

:msn-wink:

[jrandom]

It's not theorising. I've buried mates who were good riders, but couldn't change from track to road and back. Geez half the Vic Club guys from when I raced are dead or paralysed. Maybe not half but it feels like it.

Due to road bins?

And your point is that they'd have been safer if they hadn't learned how to ride fast on the track and then gone out on the road and ridden fast?

Once again. Lowest common denominator.

It's not that riding on the racetrack doesn't give you better control of your bike. We're back to Katman's thing - attitude.

And I think the point where we disagree is the idea that learning about how to control a motorcycle nearer the limits of performance is likely to be fatal to a rider's attitude on the road.

Philosophically speaking, it sticks in my craw to modify any of my behaviour or refrain from sharing any of my experiences because idiots might get the wrong end of the stick from it.

Neither do I feel compelled to save the idiots from themselves.

I can't speak for everyone - all I can say is, riding on the track has made me safer on the road due to being able to devote more conscious thought time to strategic safety rather than bike control mechanics, and I know lots of guys (and girls) who feel exactly the same way.

I'd suspect that your badly-flavoured experiences on the track came down to having to share it with a bunch of practicing racers with their egos on the line.

'Rider training' days (yes, that's really what they are, even though they're fun too) like MotoTT are an entirely different environment.


You need to get a grip on that arrogance chap.

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you happen to be right about something.

:msn-wink:

[James Deuce]

Nice backtrack Dan.

The track is not a training arena for the road. In that you are wrong.

From my perspective your track time hasn't been that healthy for your license, now has it?

So far it is only your license. The attitudes bred at the track and even "fun" track days are bad news for road riding. There's plenty of racers on KB who publicly state that they don't ride on the road because it screws up their track riding. The reverse is true.

[jrandom]

Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
When you happen to be right about something.

You know what the problem is here?

We're both right.

We're just approaching it from different angles.

I think the best course of action is to encourage both trackday participation and safe roadriding attitudes.

[jrandom]

Nice backtrack Dan.

My specialty!

:o


From my perspective your track time hasn't been that healthy for your license, now has it?

Given that 70 of the points that I lost my licence for were gathered in the car, a year before the first time I ever rode on the track, I'm not sure that it's particularly related.

And I've never had a speeding ticket on the bike that wasn't an "inattention to cruising speed on a big wide open road" situation. Surely you're not going to argue that 120kph on the Napier-Taupo plains is a safety issue? My ability to ride safely and whether or not I ever drift 20kph above arbitrary speed limits on long straight roads are two different things.

But I shouldn't need to make that point to you or anyone else around here. Don't be disingenuous.


So far it is only your license.

Irrelevant low blows, Jim. Like I said, being nickel-and-dimed to death through an unwillingness to cruise motorways at 110 instead of 120 has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

:nono:


There's plenty of racers on KB who publicly state that they don't ride on the road because it screws up their track riding.

'Screws up', in this case, meaning 'slows down'. Because riding on the road has nothing to do with getting the most out of the bike - it requires keeping yourself safe. And they need to get out of that habit if they want to win races.


The reverse is true.

Nope, I don't think that that's valid logic.

Learning bike control skills on the track and then applying them on the road is not the mirror image of getting into the habit of riding cautiously on the road and then losing races on the track.

[R6_kid]

If you're not locking the front and recovering at a trackday, you're not trying hard enough.

I hope thats a pisstake...

If you're locking the front then you are hitting the brakes too hard and need to go back to get some training on the correct application.


I'm with Jim on this, while track riding does give you some skills that help on the road, I wouldn't call it a training area for the road. Yes I can think of a couple of times that having been to the track has possibly saved my ass, but those situations arose due to the confidence I gained at track being put in to use on the open road.

The track is a place to live out your dream of being a Rossi for a day, albeit only in your own mind.

There is a need for many people to recieve proper training, I have seen this through the time I have spent helping out at RRRS, and generally it is the old-timers and 'experienced' people that are the hardest to teach, as they need to un-learn their incorrect habits first. The same also applies to anyone with an ego bigger than their helmet - hence why skidmark has never shown up. I'm not saying that RRRS is 'proper training', but it is at very least a step in the right direction.

[jrandom]

I hope thats a pisstake...

Of course it is.


while track riding does give you some skills that help on the road, I wouldn't call it a training area for the road.

You just made two contradictory statements in a single sentence. 'Giving some skills that help' is training.

If you then go out and compromise the effectiveness of those skills by being a knuckle-dragging doofus on the road, that doesn't change the fact that gaining the skills constituted relevant training.

It's like teaching someone to wrestle or box, and then seeing them rush straight into a downtown pub at 2am on a Saturday and pick a fight.

That doesn't make boxing or wrestling Bad (tm), it just means that the person in question is an idiot.


I'm not saying that RRRS is 'proper training', but it is at very least a step in the right direction.

I think I might prove my humility chops by turning up to a RRRS course one of these days and seeing what I can pick up.

:niceone:

[Katman]

It's like teaching someone to wrestle or box, and then seeing them rush straight into a downtown pub at 2am on a Saturday and pick a fight.

That doesn't make boxing or wrestling Bad (tm), it just means that the person in question is an idiot.


Very good analogy.

Anyone game to hazard a guess at the percentage of motorcyclists that are idiots?

:msn-wink:

[Mikkel]

IT is a matter of knowing what is good training and what is not.

And here I was thinking IT was about making ones and zeros jump through the right loops in the right order ;) (poor joke I know, couldn't help it)


it can also be a fix for a junkie, so he don't go out and get said fix on the highways !

Very true indeed. Unless you're addiction is related to flattering your ego you can indeed satisfy your need for speed on the track instead of using public roads for it.
On the other hand, if it's just a matter of wanting to be faster than your mates, backup all the bullshit you let off at the lunch break or a spell of tanathos - then the track is not going to do anything for you except allow you to eventually crash at a higher speed.


You know what the problem is here?

We're both right.

You certainly both have valid points. Could it be possible that neither of you are right or wrong?


Does the track provide you with an oppotunity to improve your bike handling skills (at speed) and get to know your bike better - most definitely!

Does the track simulate a realistic training setting for roadriding - absolutely not.

Will track time improve your survivability on the public roads - that very much depends upon what kind of person you are, your attitude is, your approach to track time and what you take away from it.

Personally I have no doubt that the time I have spent on the track has benefitted me greatly. I am however very conscious about not riding on the road like I do on the track. E.g. I don't hang off the bike on the public road mainly because it puts me into the wrong mindset - also it leaves me with a reserve if I all of a sudden should need to corner more sharply.
I had my two first offs on the track - which I am thankful for... Hitting the deck at 70 km/h hurts a bit - but it can be fatal if there's stuff to hit, on a track you get up, swear, pick up your bike and ride it back to the pit.

Oh, did I forget to mention it's a lot of fun too? I mean, let's be honest - being able to go as fast as you feel comfortable with, without having to worry about the speedlimit, on-coming traffic, trucks, etc is just awesome. And it's also good exercise - you sleep really well after a long day at the track :D

Finally I'd like to warmly recommend reading the thread about riding at "The Pace" here in the survival forum. I've made that my biking manifesto.

[jrandom]

I don't hang off the bike on the public road mainly because it puts me into the wrong mindset - also it leaves me with a reserve if I all of a sudden should need to corner more sharply.

Huh?

I shift my weight into corners on the road because it gives me more reserve for the unexpected. More weight transfer = less bike lean for the same cornering speed.


riding at "The Pace"

While everything said in that 'Pace' article is quite correct, it is also one of the wankiest most up-itself wads of self-righteousness that I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

[Mikkel]

I shift my weight into corners on the road because it gives me more reserve for the unexpected. More weight transfer = less bike lean for the same cornering speed.

Well, as I said, the main reason for not hanging off (and by hanging off I mean really hanging off - not just shifting your weight a bit) is that it puts me in the wrong state of mind.
It's pretty quick to slide off your seat if you need to turn sharper.
Besides - sitting upright will give you a better line of sight around the corner too.


While everything said in that 'Pace' article is quite correct, it is also one of the wankiest most up-itself wads of self-righteousness that I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

I'm only concerned with the truth - I don't worry too much about the tone. Maybe that's why I enjoy your posts too :love:

[jrandom]

Maybe that's why I enjoy your posts too :love:

I was totally waiting for that.

:pinch:

[Mikkel]

I was totally waiting for that.

:pinch:

I thought you were - I'd hate to disappoint :)

But regarding the pace - I can't recall any wanking going on, I just remember thinking "hmmm, this really makes good sense". Will re-read it and see if I can spot what you're getting at.

[sinfull]

Very true indeed. Unless you're addiction is related to flattering your ego you can indeed satisfy your need for speed on the track instead of using public roads for it.
On the other hand, if it's just a matter of wanting to be faster than your mates, backup all the bullshit you let off at the lunch break or a spell of tanathos - then the track is not going to do anything for you except allow you to eventually crash at a higher speed.
Please let me know if group 3 has anything to do with ego wontcha lol



You certainly both have valid points. Could it be possible that neither of you are right or wrong? My opinion yes !!!!!


Does the track provide you with an oppotunity to improve your bike handling skills (at speed) and get to know your bike better - most definitely! Ok bling !

Does the track simulate a realistic training setting for roadriding - absolutely not. Agreed !
Will track time improve your survivability on the public roads - that very much depends upon what kind of person you are, your attitude is, your approach to track time and what you take away from it. what you take there !Personally I have no doubt that the time I have spent on the track has benefitted me greatly. I am however very conscious about not riding on the road like I do on the track. E.g. I don't hang off the bike on the public road mainly because it puts me into the wrong mindset - also it leaves me with a reserve if I all of a sudden should need to corner more sharply.
I had my two first offs on the track - which I am thankful for... Hitting the deck at 70 km/h hurts a bit - but it can be fatal if there's stuff to hit, on a track you get up, swear, pick up your bike and ride it back to the pit. Exacery my point take yr attitude to the track !!!!!!!Oh, did I forget to mention it's a lot of fun too? I mean, let's be honest - being able to go as fast as you feel comfortable with, without having to worry about the speedlimit, on-coming traffic, trucks, etc is just awesome. And it's also good exercise - you sleep really well after a long day at the track :D Well im a fat cunt now and ummmm ok after session 3 i might be ready for a grandad nap but let you fuckers see it lol not on ya nellly ! Finally I'd like to warmly recommend reading the thread about riding at "The Pace" here in the survival forum. I've made that my biking manifesto.


Huh?
What ?
I shift my weight into corners on the road because it gives me more reserve for the unexpected. More weight transfer = less bike lean for the same cornering speed. Asking to get looked at JR


While everything said in that 'Pace' article is quite correct, it is also one of the wankiest most up-itself wads of self-righteousness that I've ever had the displeasure of reading.Have ya tried ? Seriously tried it ?

If ya love it fast i wont complain ! Just chase ya to see where ya really at !
Ride at the Pace and save pads, i'll ride beside ya to add a bit o flavour !
Ride like a nana or a dick head, you'll be looking for me !

[jrandom]

Have ya tried ? Seriously tried it ?

I don't feel the need to name my riding style with a proper noun.

I just ride the fucking bike.

We'll have to hook up and head out sometime!

[gunnyrob]

When I was a noob back in '87, I attended a freaking excellent course in Palmerton North run by an old cobbler (Yes, he was a cobbler) called Stan Key. Freakin excellent. Skills I learnt have kept me alive ever since.

When I got back into the fold after a long break, John Glaswell was running the BMW return to riding course. Also friggen excellent.

I want to do a "How to ride your big trailie" course so I can get the most out of my Beemer. If anyone does one in NZ, let me know & I'll sign up tomorrow.

[sinfull]

I don't feel the need to name my riding style with a proper noun.

I just ride the fucking bike. Bling !

We'll have to hook up and head out sometime!
Tonight mathew, i'm going to be in Taupo ! Tis where i want to be !
Group 3 tommorow, but it was, fit me in here somewhere peter, know i should move up but then i have nothing to prove, as has been said right through this thread. So it does not bother me what group i'm in !
Group 3 has enough bikes passing me for my liking !

Taint about speed JD tis about what ya get out of it ! I can be a nutta on the road, gimmme two or three bourbons and an absolute nutta ! Do i want that, do the PC police want that, do my kids want that, My Mrs ? Each day i learn something new !
10 yrs ago someone could have pointed a gun at me and i would have walked into it, if they hadn't shot me dead i would have shoved it where it fit and fired, Today i want to watch my grandkids ride !
Tommorrow i will pootle out there, scrub my tyre in and proceed to tire myself out ! (won't take much to wear the fat grandad out !)
Today i warmed my bike up, Saturday i will be undoubtably frustrated again ! but then thats another day ! I will be a happy little junkie !
I call it training !

[Mikkel]

Group 3 tommorow, but it was, fit me in here somewhere peter, know i should move up but then i have nothing to prove, as has been said right through this thread. So it does not bother me what group i'm in !
Group 3 has enough bikes passing me for my liking !

With regards to your comment inside what you quoted above with regards to group 3 (aka the notorious fast group at any big organised trackday) and egos.
Yes most definitely - I'd expect there to be a very high density of testosterone fueled egos in that bunch. Even more so than with the fast crowd on e.g. the Akaroa GP...
As long as they are passing you and not taking you out it's nothing to worry about though ;)

Have a nice trackday and be safe. :yes:

[sinfull]

Have a nice trackday and be safe. :yes:
Thank you !
May you have yourself a damb fine friday also !

[Mikkel]

Thank you !
May you have yourself a damb fine friday also !

Thanks, I hope it shall be a fine day tomorrow - in that case I shall hope to perform a coup de grace on my already tired rear tyre :yes:

[Trudes]

Oh look, they've brought the love back!:laugh:

[dpex]

Folks, I'm seriously heartened at the dialogue which is resulting from the poll. It's good stuff. Thank you from me and all those who have or will read the posts but don't comment.

Last night I attended a training course run by Quickchik. Mercifully, at my age, my ego is rather less strident than it was just a few years ago, thus I was able to easily take her comments. I understood them, accepted them, and acted on them. And learned a great deal.....Never again will my fingers wrap around the throttle. From now on the joint between thumb and index will operate the throttle, leaving four fingers slightly resting on the brake. I learned it took an extra half second to get fingers wrapped on the throttle to extend to grip the brake.

I also learned a lot more in another discipline she encouraged. And all this in just two hours.

I enjoy riding hard and fast. I have a very responsive bike. I accept my skills are woefully less than such a bike should expect.

So I tend to keep practicing, asking questions of all who will speak with me, and carry on testing.

There was a chap there, last night, who I fancy would prefer to remain anonymous, but was clearly very skilled. He told me, 'You learn 80% in the first six months. You learn the next 10% over the following ten years. The rest? Well, you might learn that if you live long enough.'

You see, there are still too many bikers getting trashed. We know that is the PRIMARY fault of 'other' drivers. So what do we do? Play the blame game, or upskill so we don't have to play the blame-game.

Me? I'm into upskill while dressed in wildly, hi-vis clothes.

Thanks all, for your input so far. Bring it on.

[FROSTY]

The track just isn't relevant. There's no side streets, opposing traffic, enraged soccer Mums, texting truck drivers (don't get me started) or tailgating Police. It's also really, really wide. The surface doesn't change (much) between the morning and the afternoon either. attitude to the


It nearly killed me once upon a time and I'm not keen to see the myth continued.

Jim at a normal trackday I agree with you. It is a good place in my opinion to get familiar with a bike in a "safe' enviroment as many people have found out Other than that yes its a place to let rip and have fun again in a "safe" enviroment.
BUT --I disagree that a racetrack is the wrong venue (location) for rider training.
Every reason you have given for it being a bad place to conduct rider training to me is a bloody good reason TO conduct said training there.
Its a controled enviroment where with instruction you can practice survival skills that might just keep you alive WHEN the truck is heading across his lane at you.

[Katman]

You see, there are still too many bikers getting trashed. We know that is the PRIMARY fault of 'other' drivers.

No it's not.

[Ixion]

IMNSHO, experience riding 'off road' (ie rough, trail riding) is better training for road riding than track riding. Because off road riding (I'm not talking moto-x) is inherently unpredictable; and forces the rider to learn how things happen near the limits, because the limits are so much more easily reached.

About the only thing track riding will teach that is of any value on the road, is confidence in tyres and brakes But it is at a cost that is excessive for many (most?) of those who try it. Having learned how to go round corners fats at the track, it would be a rare novice who could refrain from putting those same skillz into practice on the road.

Except that the road has all those nasty things that the binary gentleman specified. And knowing that your tyres will hold at extreme angles is not much help when you encounter Harry Huriup on the wrong side of the road in a blind corner.

It's a pity we don't have a motorcycle equivalent of a skid pan. A nice slippery bumpy , surface, with gravel and suchlike liberally bestrewn, and screens to hide what is round the corner. THAT would be useful training. But I suspect that very very few motorcyclists would be interested.

[Jantar]

....It's a pity we don't have a motorcycle equivalent of a skid pan. A nice slippery bumpy , surface, with gravel and suchlike liberally bestrewn, and screens to hide what is round the corner. THAT would be useful training. But I suspect that very very few motorcyclists would be interested.

We do! Its called The Dunstan Trail. And one hell of a lot of fun to ride on road tyres.

[Ocean1]

We do! Its called The Dunstan Trail. And one hell of a lot of fun to ride on road tyres.

Yup, was going to say that describes the Mungatuk valley perfectly.

[James Deuce]

Jim at a normal trackday I agree with you. It is a good place in my opinion to get familiar with a bike in a "safe' enviroment as many people have found out Other than that yes its a place to let rip and have fun again in a "safe" enviroment.
BUT --I disagree that a racetrack is the wrong venue (location) for rider training.
Every reason you have given for it being a bad place to conduct rider training to me is a bloody good reason TO conduct said training there.
Its a controled enviroment where with instruction you can practice survival skills that might just keep you alive WHEN the truck is heading across his lane at you.

Just like everyone else you can't bloody read!

I never said it was a bad place to conduct rider training. Ever. Not once. It just doesn't happen there. A track day is not a training session. Going there with the intent of turning in quicker and quicker laps is not a training session. The last training session I went on that included track time was with Alan Kirk in about '89.

Show me an accredited course run by qualified and endorsed trainers. A track day is Fun Park experience not a road riders training session.

Dan you'll be surprised what you get to see and experience over the next couple of decades. I only hope you get to experience the gut wrenching disappointment of having your own personal experience devalued and have scorn and vitriol poured on it because you're old and useless. Schadenfreude is about the only emotion I experience with any depth these days. Pity I won't be around to see the day when you finally realise that no one actually gives a shit.

[Mikkel]

Dan you'll be surprised what you get to see and experience over the next couple of decades. I only hope you get to experience the gut wrenching disappointment of having your own personal experience devalued and have scorn and vitriol poured on it because you're old and useless. Schadenfreude is about the only emotion I experience with any depth these days. Pity I won't be around to see the day when you finally realise that no one actually gives a shit.

Jesus Jim, got the wrong leg out of bed this morning? Step away from the computer, sit down and relax with some good music and have some peat juice for christ's sake :yes:
Carry on like this and you'll give the internet a depression. ;)

[dpex]

I believe jrandom has made an excellent point. If one does not know the position of a 'failure' event horizon, then one can never truly understand his/her bike's abilities.

The big Q is; how does one visit and pass safely through an event horison on a bike without causing significant damage to person or bike?

In this respect, bike-riding is almost unique; in as much as, one cannot pass through an event horison without suffering the consequences.

I clearly remember learning to stall and spin an aircraft. But I was taught at an altitude which guaranteed my safety and, better yet, my instructor was sitting right behind me to take over if I messed up. I've had similar experiences with rock-climbing, abseiling, and parachuting. Always there has been a fall-back position.

But not so with bike-riding. For me to find the event-horizon of say, a back-end, serious skid, I have to get into one. Once in it I can't safely pull out, or have an instructor pull me out, to go back to the point before the event horizon and try again.

As a result, my knowledge of my bike's and my ability are seriously compromised. This means I could quite easily whimp-out in a corner, due to my fear of skidding, go wide and crash when, if only I'd known, my bike could have easily laid down through the corner.

Quite how a teaching programme can cater for this is, at this moment, beyond me.

[Katman]

I fail to see the relevance of 'finding the limits' of ones bike in a road riding situation. What would happen if all other road users started trying to 'find their limits'?

[Ixion]

Yup, was going to say that describes the Mungatuk valley perfectly.


We do! Its called The Dunstan Trail. And one hell of a lot of fun to ride on road tyres.


But they lack (I suspect) the fast sealed 200+ kph straights , before the slippery off camber bumpy gravel strewn screen hidden corners.

Off road riding is , as I said, a better teaching ground than track riding. But it usually lacks the ability to build up high speed. And it is this , the transition from blasting along at warp speed down the track, to "oh shit oh fuckity fuck who put THAT there, wot do I do NOW " that the neither the track nor trail riding provide, yet which is so very often encountered on the road .


If someone can find a track with some nice bumpy off camber steep downhill corners , with gravel and eroded edges, then track days there would be worthwhile. Especially if the hazards could be dynamically reconfigured between laps,

[Ocean1]

But they lack (I suspect) the fast sealed 200+ kph straights , before the slippery off camber bumpy gravel strewn screen hidden corners.

I certainly don't reach those velocities.

Off road riding is , as I said, a better teaching ground than track riding. But it usually lacks the ability to build up high speed. And it is this , the transition from blasting along at warp speed down the track, to "oh shit oh fuckity fuck who put THAT there, wot do I do NOW " that the neither the track nor trail riding provide, yet which is so very often encountered on the road .

Why is absolute speed relevant?

Way I see it the primary function of that thing in your right hand is to adjust the endorphin pump in yer brain.
Sure, it can be used for other things, but seriously, it's design purpose is to explore that fine line between pleasure and pain.

Heh, I is a poet. :cool:

*Sorry*

Velocity is just one of several environmental variables that define what we perceve as risk, and walking that line is the game. So if the terain presents constantly variable and uncertain traction problems, the number of possible target artifacts is large and "stopping in the clear distance ahead" would render the excercise pointless then the risk is (correctly) percieved to be fookin' high.

If someone can find a track with some nice bumpy off camber steep downhill corners , with gravel and eroded edges, then track days there would be worthwhile. Especially if the hazards could be dynamically reconfigured between laps,

An even more accurate description of the place. So if yo ever get the chance to take a wee exploritory fang on either of the suggested tracks, on an appropriate machine, then let me know. Not only would I be interested to discover your aproach to remaining on that very narrow line but I'd love to join you

I'll bring the refreshments.

[dpex]

I want to know what to do when a Concrete mixer changes across 2 lanes abruptly, cutting me off and crushing me against a barrier.

I would have thought:laugh the best solution would be to avoid being anywhere near a person driving a concrete mixer. Given a concrete mixer is a fairly unusual form of transport one would assume they would be rare and thus fairly easy to spot.

It must be hell-on-wheels trying to get a warrant for a concrete mixer.:blink:

[Bikernereid]

If someone can find a track with some nice bumpy off camber steep downhill corners , with gravel and eroded edges, then track days there would be worthwhile. Especially if the hazards could be dynamically reconfigured between laps,[/QUOTE]


Look at Cadwell Park. It is an amazing track and if you don't learn a thing or two there then something is very wrong. Don't think they can reconfigure between laps but I don't think you would ever ride it the same twice for sure.

[Swoop]

Jesus Jim, got the wrong leg out of bed this morning?
I don't think he has.
J2 is making perfect sense to me.

[jrandom]

I believe jrandom has made an excellent point. If one does not know the position of a 'failure' event horizon, then one can never truly understand his/her bike's abilities.

The big Q is; how does one visit and pass safely through an event horison on a bike without causing significant damage to person or bike?

I did that on my GSX1400 at 120kph exiting T7 at Taupo.

Now I know precisely what not to do vis-a-vis applying throttle while holding enough lean to drag the sidestand.

:laugh:

It didn't hurt (although, according to Goblin, my sky-ground-sky-ground tumble down the track was quite spectacular) and total meaningful damage to the bike consisted of a broken end on the clutch lever and bent handlebars (they pushed back into shape just fine in the pits).

Assuming you're not practicing on a $40,000 work of art covered in fragile plastic, the track is a safe place to look for limits, both for body and wallet.

If the good Lord hadn't meant us to do the ton on our bums, he wouldn't have made cows with 2mm-thick skins.


As a result, my knowledge of my bike's and my ability are seriously compromised. This means I could quite easily whimp-out in a corner, due to my fear of skidding, go wide and crash when, if only I'd known, my bike could have easily laid down through the corner.

Come to a trackday. If you exercise care, you almost certainly won't crash, but you'll ride within limits far in excess of what you use on the road, thereby saving you from that situation when it happens.

Jim makes good points regarding attitude and training, but the simple fact is that the racetrack and (probably to an even greater extent) the dirt are where real motorcycle-handling skills (and, for that matter, the requisite attitudes) are acquired.

And the road is where those skills and attitudes are applied.

Neither riding practice on a racetrack or anything else is a magic formula for safety. IMHO, we should all do what we can to promulgate good riding attitudes and maintain a humble attitude toward learning what we can.

And that can and should include riding motorcycles in environments other than public roads. So long as the powers gained are used only for Good, and never for Evel (tm), there's no such thing as 'skills that shouldn't be learned'.

I can only hope that I manage to retain a smidgeon more optimism about it throughout future decades than Jim has.

:crazy:

[sinfull]

I did that on my GSX1400 at 120kph exiting T7 at Taupo.

:
T7 had its way with 3 or 4 riders yesterday mate ! Think it was more cold tires that was the issue there, Group 4 had more than its share of em !

[Ocean1]

Jim makes good points regarding attitude and training, but the simple fact is that the racetrack and (probably to an even greater extent) the dirt are where real motorcycle-handling skills (and, for that matter, the requisite attitudes) are acquired.

So progressively restricting access to the sort of ideal training grounds mentioned above in the name of safety would be a bad idea? <_<

[dpex]

Now there's a term to which can relate. I have to admit I am a bit of a speed-freak, so I've booked into the Eastern Creek course to see if I can get it out of my system; or trash my system completely. :--((

However, the concept of 'road-craft is a goody, so here's a Q, James.

How's about you elucidate say, ten, primary road-craft skills. Explain what they are. What they are for. How to go about practicing them, and how to measure progress.

Perhaps you could also accept a Q&A from those practicing the road-skills you suggest.

I'd be heavily into something like that. Personally I'd like to see an emphasis on wet-weather skills; but that's just me.

[dpex]

Latterly, I've taken to wandering the inner by-ways North of Auckland, where the traffic is light and roads are poorly designed and built. As Trudes says, there's live-stock and brain-deads all over the place. Today, a low and slow-flying native wood-pigeon was almost my undoing. Bastard thing refused to stay on his/her side of the road!!!

On such roads I constantly edit my cornering technique. If it felt good I carry on. If it felt bad I turn around and go do it again as many times as it takes to make it feel good. (BTW: 'Feel good' means feeling totally in control without effort.)

When I get home I spend maybe ten minutes on a quiet, narrow road, nearby, just completing figures-of-eight. I'm still doing a bit of foot-tapping, but I will persist till I can complete elegant figures-or-eight like I'm Torvel & Dean.

To me, this, apparently, rather trivial exercise is one of control. Mind you, it must be paying off because the 'Hazard ID' Instructor, of the other day asserted my U-turn was 'one' of the best he'd seen. That I'd missing noting an intersection ten k's up the road, fourteen ants (which can cause road surface slip) crossing the road, and a small Dachshund named Dennis laying in a drive nearby, was by-the-by. My U-turn was cool. "Thanks for the training in this matter, Quickchick!"

[dpex]

I have to say I'm getting very engaged with my daily exercise of executing upwards of 100 lazy figures of eight on a narrow road.

When I first stared doing this (about three weeks ago) I was all over the place, foot-stamping, stuttering,erg; horrid.

But as I managed to continuously adopt the advice of quickchick (look hard at where you're going, and keep the bloody head up) so it became easier.

Now I can float around doing figures of eight in less than four metres; till my neck gets sore and I fail to look and lift my head. Then it all goes to shit.

I guess what I'm on about here is; although I do these figures of eight at around 10kph, my balance and sense of harmony with my bike (her name is Imoasina) :--)) is developing. I'm not yet sure who controls whom. But geez it feels good to be able to loop around at low speed (my bete noir) developing my synergy with my bike. I presume it will have some benefit somewhere out there.

I'm also practicing emergency stops whenever I get the chance. One of these days I'll get to stop hard without feeling I'm about to go for a flying lesson. :--((

[Ocean1]

One of these days I'll get to stop hard without feeling I'm about to go for a flying lesson. :--((

Yes, I practiced emergency stops last Sunday also.

Just one.

I had no idea I could do 100kph stoppies.

The brother was impressed as all hell.

Not doing it again though.

[dpex]

I think Jrandom's reply is probably the best so far. The point he makes is, "Learning to go hard on the track expands, dramatically, the riders experience of event horizons and, therefore, enables the rider to better know what his'her bike can or cannot do.'

But his most excellent point is, one does not have to take track speed onto the open road. But is sure as hell is nice to know the width of the envelope when all of your concentration just flew out the window, the rains is pissing down, the corner was tighter than expected, and farmer-Browns cow is having a shit in the middle of the next bend.

Yeah. I'm looking forward to doing the Eastern Creek programme.

Thanks jrandom. Damned good post.

[Katman]

How's about you elucidate say, ten, primary road-craft skills. Explain what they are. What they are for. How to go about practicing them, and how to measure progress.



If I were to pick one Roadcraft skill that will do more to keep you alive than any other it would be the practice of constantly scanning what is around you and identifying and assessing potential hazards.

[bikemike]

Coming in late as usual, but what a great thread!

I'd say most of the relevant limits can be explored at relatively low speeds. That could be in trail off road or closed/private paved. Weight shift, braking, brakes/power/steering transitions, tyre grip, loose and uneven surfaces, suspension factors...

In my case, I feel that the deficiencies in my riding would have been fixed better by more dirt riding than more track riding - and the rest of the more mental(cerebral) stuff can be practised day in day out on the road at safe speeds. In fact, the sheer volume of scenarios and constant self-training that is available in daily riding far outweighs anything you'd get in a month of Sundays on any course; I find it hard to see how any useful road skill can not be taught on the road or at least, off the track. Whilst I see the argument for having somewhere to practice some stuff off the road is invaluable, I also think that this never needs to be on the track, and, learning to handle constant variability and unpredictability is #1 survival skill. In that vein, I'd even play devil's advocate to wonder whether repeatedly covering the same stretch of road on a self-training day with the express purpose of getting-it-right really serves to teach anything relevant? Doesn't it also distort our attitude to the reality we ride in? It won't ever be the same stretch again, and expecting to be the same is #1 folly. I'd practice on the next stretch, and the next...

As far as training is concerned, it doesn't matter where the training is done so long as the exercises and lessons are targeted at and relevant to the road. I wouldn't look to a 'track day' for anything other than entertainment though.

I wondered as I read, and did not see mention nor answer; what do the police do to train to ride quick and safe on the road? Videos, physics, theory, observation, mentoring, practice...?

Do they do dirt riding, or track riding?