True Production Racing series

[jrandom]

I know him...was just checking it was one and the same 'Jay'!

I wouldn't be surprised if he had an evil twin, of course. Explains the 'two bikes' approach to racing.

[Mishy]

I know Bruce Ainstey well. Managed to beat him to the NZ 250TT title in '91' racing 250 'proddie'. He's a good friend of mine. Bruce has never 'whined like a stuck pig'...and never will. Not his style.


I worked for Bruce when he had the Tas Suzuki out here. . . . . . . . . . .

[Mishy]

O'K, so we don't have any international riders at the moment, but why would that be ? from what I understand Dom Jones found it real hard in the states on a limited budget, Hayden had a hard time in England, and a common factor would probably be money, or lack of it. The cost of buying into a ride in Europe is huge - guys like Seaton and Gareth Jones have sold their soules to ride those Superstock bikes, and i don't think that what they grew up racing has much to do with whether they can afford to get on a good bike at that level. It's a reality that the higher you want to acheive, the more it'll cost.

I have been told that it's also not uncommon for talented young European riders to struggle when they get a descent bike because they have no experience at setting one up, which is due to a lot of time on stock bikes. You could well argue ( if your main point of interest is getting NZ'ers on the international stage) that having the experience of working with technology is very usefel for our young guys wanting to go places, like a good stepping stone between stock and SBK perhaps.

[puddytat]

Stock standard 6hundies I reckon, then I reckon I'd have a chance....:laugh:

[gammaguy]

haha remember test rides up the summit road after a bit of tuning in my garage?great days....

truth is all of us racers,ex and current,do/did it because we get a kick out of it.lets not lose sight of that,and if that means racing boring and not "purist"production bikes to keep the sponsors/distributors/joe public happy,so be it.

its either that or we are all going to be entertaining ourselves and precious few others this summer.i doubt that is what many of us want because it is the start of a downward spiral of the sport we love,which if i am not mistaken has already started judging by the number of aging ex racers like me hanging around the traps not being replaced by up and coming young racers.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I worked for Bruce when he had the Tas Suzuki out here. . . . . . . . . . .

So you are who?

[Mishy]

And do you mean 'Jay' that raced the Museum Hotel ZX6? I could be outta line here...but I think if that's the 'Jay'...he had all sorts of problems with handling 'issues'. Does anyone know if his (if that's the 'J' in question) ZX6 was running stock suspension??? Bet it wasn't.

And you'd win that bet too :) It's a good thing too, because It just wasn't nice at all on the stock stuff once Jay pushed. Don't get me wrong - they are all very good machines, but there are guys like Jay and Sam and Dennis and James and Nick etc etc who quickly get to the point where they could go faster with more control from the bike than it gives them in stock trim. That's what we want to give them - and when they get it, they go faster.
The ZX6 was actually quite good by the end of the season, but it needed some fairly large adjustments from one track to the next, ones that would have been impossible with stock suspension. And "issues" are a relative thing. Jay set pole at Timaru whilst riding around "issues". At least we were able to work with those issues. . . . . . . . .

[Mishy]

So you are who?

Cliff Burton reincarnated . . . . . . . .

[Shaun]

Hey Mishy, what you have been saying so far has been interesting.

1) Put trick suspension internalls into a bike, and you need a person who under stands what does what to get the best value for buck from it all

2) Put a different tire compund on, and you need to re set bike and tire psi etc to get the very best from the package

3) Play with your geometery radically like you guys did, and end up with a bag of shite, like you guys did at manfeild many months back, when I suggested a different set up, which you guys tried, and went faster ( Jay and Andrew were happy)

The point to this dribble is, ALL of the above can be learned on a std production bike!!!!! Fuckin Cheap, no $3000 front fork kits, or $3000 shocks or $800 stearing dampers

Just saved near on $7000-00--- And there is ya full season running costs of a STD 600 Production bike, where many many many riders have learned there skill.

Now it is time after a season in the production class, to move onto after market suspension, to get the very very best from your self and your bike.

You cannot be an Accountant, with out doing the training, so WHY even bother, your average fastish rider here, may pick up a second or so from $5=6000 of suspension parts, that is NOT worth it for FUN riders, and learners!

Tires, bahahaha, if one brand cannot deal with a true production class of racing, another can, there is a good quality tire breed out there that can deal with this class simle, you know it and I do.

CONTINENTAL Tires will be on ALL these bikes, and I will decide which compound, from testing that I will personally do, to determine the compound etc.

PS, remember what was said by some one we both know last year about a certain person working on suspension?

If you do not have a good set up man, there is NO point to having trick shit in ya bike.

Dennis and Robert are good, I have never met any one else in New Zealand that can even come close to them, apart from ME as a set up expert, which I am:Punk: Big headed as well hahaha:2guns:

[codgyoleracer]

Hey Mishy, what you have been saying so far has been interesting.

1) Put trick suspension internalls into a bike, and you need a person who under stands what does what to get the best value for buck from it all

2) Put a different tire compund on, and you need to re set bike and tire psi etc to get the very best from the package

3) Play with your geometery radically like you guys did, and end up with a bag of shite, like you guys did at manfeild many months back, when I suggested a different set up, which you guys tried, and went faster ( Jay and Andrew were happy)

The point to this dribble is, ALL of the above can be learned on a std production bike!!!!! Fuckin Cheap, no $3000 front fork kits, or $3000 shocks or $800 stearing dampers

Just saved near on $7000-00--- And there is ya full season running costs of a STD 600 Production bike, where many many many riders have learned there skill.

Now it is time after a season in the production class, to move onto after market suspension, to get the very very best from your self and your bike.

You cannot be an Accountant, with out doing the training, so WHY even bother, your average fastish rider here, may pick up a second or so from $5=6000 of suspension parts, that is NOT worth it for FUN riders, and learners!

Tires, bahahaha, if one brand cannot deal with a true production class of racing, another can, there is a good quality tire breed out there that can deal with this class simle, you know it and I do.

CONTINENTAL Tires will be on ALL these bikes, and I will decide which compound, from testing that I will personally do, to determine the compound etc.

PS, remember what was said by some one we both know last year about a certain person working on suspension?

If you do not have a good set up man, there is NO point to having trick shit in ya bike.

Dennis and Robert are good, I have never met any one else in New Zealand that can even come close to them, apart from ME as a set up expert, which I am:Punk: Big headed as well hahaha:2guns:

Well said, best read more than once.
Glen

[Shaun]

Well said, best read more than once.
Glen



haha took me a couple of reads to even under stand myself

[vtec]

I understood you for once Shaun.

[sidecar bob]

Now it is time after a season in the production class, to move onto after market suspension, to get the very very best from your self and your bike.



Or maybe, enjoy budget racing sooo much that you just want to keep doing it for years.

[scrivy]

Or maybe, enjoy budget racing sooo much that you just want to keep doing it for years.

What is this budget thing you wanna race???? :pinch:

[sidecar bob]

What is this budget thing you wanna race???? :pinch:

Havent you raced a budget before, Theyre a hoot!!! 3 wheels & loads of sideways!!
Unfortunately Ohlins products are not avaliable for a budget racer tho.

[Mishy]

Hey Mishy, what you have been saying so far has been interesting.

1) Put trick suspension internalls into a bike, and you need a person who under stands what does what to get the best value for buck from it all

2) Put a different tire compund on, and you need to re set bike and tire psi etc to get the very best from the package

3) Play with your geometery radically like you guys did, and end up with a bag of shite, like you guys did at manfeild many months back, when I suggested a different set up, which you guys tried, and went faster ( Jay and Andrew were happy)


Now it is time after a season in the production class, to move onto after market suspension, to get the very very best from your self and your bike.

Tires, bahahaha, if one brand cannot deal with a true production class of racing, another can, there is a good quality tire breed out there that can deal with this class simle, you know it and I do.

CONTINENTAL Tires will be on ALL these bikes, and I will decide which compound, from testing that I will personally do, to determine the compound etc.

PS, remember what was said by some one we both know last year about a certain person working on suspension?

If you do not have a good set up man, there is NO point to having trick shit in ya bike.

:) I agree with you on plenty of that Shaun. I have said before that I see a place for a straight production class - It's just exactly where it fits that matters. And i'm interested that you also see it as a stepping stone to the 600SP class - that's natural, and i see that as positive, while also reinforcing the importance of keeping that 600Sp class as it is.
On the tyre front for production class, a suitable compound would be no problem if you properly consider it's use (i'm talking generaly, i know you know . . . ), and are not too ambitious. Most of the Conti runners on Pro Twin are running much harder compounds than you might think at first, and are getting great results with life and grip. i find all that kinda interesting, but it's a different case with the bigger bikes. We should talk further on that sometime soon.
I think It goes without saying that if you want the best performance from the best equipment, then you either need to learn freaking fast, or get some good help. That's just how it is with more sophisticated stuff I guess - and if that's not for everybody, then there are classes that are less demanding :)
As for the geometry thing, yeah - you can still make bad bad mistakes regardless of what gear you run, thae same could happen on any bike out there ! I could fill pages with how that panned out, but lets just say that It'll NEVER EVER happen like that again ! and that's the whole point of making mistakes - to learn something.

[gimpy]

Cliff Burton reincarnated . . . . . . . .

True Bro:headbang:

[Ivan]

weres the new Tigcraft Gimpy?
I was hoping to see it at last VMCC round

[scracha]

So pretty much everyone is saying the same thing?


There are a limited number of riders who are either incredibly wealthy or want to move onto professional racing (and if they're lucky both).
The majority of riders do it for fun.
Pretty much every rider still wants to race competitively but to do so is unnecessarily expensive
Most riders agree there should be one or two "elite" formula classes where anything goes.
There should be a better and faster pathway to professional riding for the limited number of riders who are young enough, talented enough and have enough drive.


My tuppenceworth:

There's a lot of riders who would prefer to be racing in a relatively inexpensive 600 class where up and coming riders can still fiddle with suspension instead of the one "essentially SV650" pro twins class.
Shaun's production 600 class fits the above bill. Less development costs, less tyre & suspension costs etc. As a start, having the "production 600" class running simultaneously with the F2 makes a lot of sense.
F3 is a mess at the moment and would be as well being ditched. There's no money in it and there's little interest in it. Manufacturers haven't developed small engined bikes for years. To be competitive, you need a highly tuned & expensive bored out hand grenade 450, modified Sv650 or some weird bastardised 3 cylinder 600. The majority of the bikes in the class at club level are 15 year old 400's so why not just have formula 400 (power limit and minimum weight)? It works, it's a level playing field and it's the most popular form of racing across the ditch.
If F2 were dropped then surely F1 would become more "elite". More sponsorship money, better crowds, better riders and guys like Dr Taylor and Mishy would be kept even busier. I don't think there's enough money at the moment for F1 AND F2 and Shaun's "production" class could lead to the death of F2. This may be no bad thing.
This leaves
F1
F2 / Production 600
Pro Twin / Formula 400
125 GP
Streetstock 150 / 250 ?






Business is slow and I've got waaaay to much time on my hands at the moment.

[Ivan]

I agree this is a freat idea,
Its good to have the option of a cheaper stnaderised class if need be.

Pro Twins is cheap at the momment but still has costs to allow the guy with the bigger wallet a opportunity with power commanders etc

A class with no mods like Shaun has proposed would be a greatway of getting introduced to the bigger 600 field before taking the gamble of running a full 600 supersport spec bike.

Hope it takes success and will be watching this space good luck Shaun

[Mishy]

True Bro:headbang:

Rockin Gimp ! whadya know jack ?

[Robert Taylor]

So pretty much everyone is saying the same thing?


There are a limited number of riders who are either incredibly wealthy or want to move onto professional racing (and if they're lucky both).
The majority of riders do it for fun.
Pretty much every rider still wants to race competitively but to do so is unnecessarily expensive
Most riders agree there should be one or two "elite" formula classes where anything goes.
There should be a better and faster pathway to professional riding for the limited number of riders who are young enough, talented enough and have enough drive.


My tuppenceworth:

There's a lot of riders who would prefer to be racing in a relatively inexpensive 600 class where up and coming riders can still fiddle with suspension instead of the one "essentially SV650" pro twins class.
Shaun's production 600 class fits the above bill. Less development costs, less tyre & suspension costs etc. As a start, having the "production 600" class running simultaneously with the F2 makes a lot of sense.
F3 is a mess at the moment and would be as well being ditched. There's no money in it and there's little interest in it. Manufacturers haven't developed small engined bikes for years. To be competitive, you need a highly tuned & expensive bored out hand grenade 450, modified Sv650 or some weird bastardised 3 cylinder 600. The majority of the bikes in the class at club level are 15 year old 400's so why not just have formula 400 (power limit and minimum weight)? It works, it's a level playing field and it's the most popular form of racing across the ditch.
If F2 were dropped then surely F1 would become more "elite". More sponsorship money, better crowds, better riders and guys like Dr Taylor and Mishy would be kept even busier. I don't think there's enough money at the moment for F1 AND F2 and Shaun's "production" class could lead to the death of F2. This may be no bad thing.
This leaves
F1
F2 / Production 600
Pro Twin / Formula 400
125 GP
Streetstock 150 / 250 ?






Business is slow and I've got waaaay to much time on my hands at the moment.

With a couple of exceptions much of what you have said is fair.

[Mishy]

So pretty much everyone is saying the same thing?


There are a limited number of riders who are either incredibly wealthy or want to move onto professional racing (and if they're lucky both).
The majority of riders do it for fun.
Pretty much every rider still wants to race competitively but to do so is unnecessarily expensive
Most riders agree there should be one or two "elite" formula classes where anything goes.
There should be a better and faster pathway to professional riding for the limited number of riders who are young enough, talented enough and have enough drive.


My tuppenceworth:
[LIST]
There's a lot of riders who would prefer to be racing in a relatively inexpensive 600 class where up and coming riders can still fiddle with suspension instead of the one "essentially SV650" pro twins class.
Shaun's production 600 class fits the above bill. Less development costs, less tyre & suspension costs etc. As a start, having the "production 600" class running simultaneously with the F2 makes a lot of sense.
F3 is a mess at the moment and would be as well being ditched. There's no money in it and there's little interest in it. Manufacturers haven't developed small engined bikes for years. To be competitive, you need a highly tuned & expensive bored out hand grenade 450, modified Sv650 or some weird bastardised 3 cylinder 600. The majority of the bikes in the class at club level are 15 year old 400's so why not just have formula 400 (power limit and minimum weight)? It works, it's a level playing field and it's the most popular form of racing across the ditch.
If F2 were dropped then surely F1 would become more "elite". More sponsorship money, better crowds, better riders and guys like Dr Taylor and Mishy would be kept even busier. I don't think there's enough money at the moment for F1 AND F2 and Shaun's "production" class could lead to the death of F2. This may be no bad thing.
This leaves
F1
F2 / Production 600
Pro Twin / Formula 400
125 GP
Streetstock 150 / 250 ?

:) I'm busy with just one rider ! ha ha !
But seriously, It's always been true that most of the field do it just for fun, and everybody has the right to choose the level they compete at for themselves. If you want cheap 600 racing, go ride a three year old standard bike in the class we have - nobody is saying you cant. Want to get a thrill out of whupping the guys with newer bikes and aftermarket suspension ? go for it ! What we shouldn't do is downgrade the 600SP class to allow "John Smith" think he can be competitive with the best riders out there just because the rules change - it wont happen.
With the pro Twins class running inside F3 it's possible that MNZ may view that as a test case for something similar in 600SP (cue Shaun ?), and that would certainly go with your ideas and Shaun's. It will be interesting to see how the Pro Twins class goes this year - if it's a real success compared to last year, then the formula may be applied to other classes, who knows.
I agree with you on making sure there is a pathway up to SBK for the talented ones, and my whole point so far has been that we have a good version of that at the moment in 600SP- lets not mess with that, other than to provide a lower step to start at :)
If there is a way of getting new blood into nationals, or old blood back, then It's worth doing. I think that's what MNZ are up to with Pro Twins - and you have to try things, right or wrong. I applaude them for at least acting

It's (in my opinion) still incorrect to blame the $5000 cost of fitting new state of the art aftermarket suspension alone on the high cost of racing a 600SP - it's a very small part of the toatal cost, and at least it's worth something after the season (or comes with a pre-raced bike for not a lot) which is more than I could say for the $10000 or more worth of tyres that are worthless after a National Season, and with good suspension you still have practice tyres for the next meeting.

Most classes at national level this year were reasonably well subscribed, and F3 is still where planty of guys go to do the cheapest racing. The big swing towards SV650's, as well as Ozzy's 3 cylinder bike in F3 has actually injected some life and interest into the class, and that's got to be healthy in my opinion !

[Robert Taylor]

First of all Robert...I could understand if you were upset by the use of my vocabulary if said four letter words were directed at you. They weren't...so you need to get over yourself. If you're offended by me saying "go faster than the next cunt" or whatever it was...you need to log on to www.godfearingdogooders.com.

'Sad'? I'll tell you what I think is 'Sad'. I think it's SAD that you have nothing else to say on this site other than 'stock suspension is no jolly good'. Oh I'm sure if I spent a week or more looking I could find a post or two of yours that doesn't say such...but I really can't be fucked.

Do I single out 'Ohlins'? Yep...because I've not found a 'White Power' or Showa' rep here that does nothing but promote their goods on any and every post regarding anything motorcycling. If I did...I'd tell them to give it a rest too.


And off topic? Well Robert...the thread is/WAS about 'true production racing was/is it not?

So are you not the one the keeps taking it off said subject??



Of course it's not a democracy...it's a fucking website! We say what we think...people either agree and say so...or don't and say so. There's no 'vote'.

And you shouldn't care that I (and others) wind you up. I sure as fuck don't.

Now then..."Current bikes"? Are you fucking (love that word) kidding me? "Current bikes" have suspension that is so much closer to power outputs than they ever were! Have you never ridden an H1...or a Z1? The power output was ten times better than the suspension and chassis. I owned a Z1RTC, and I know all about power vs chassis. We're all spoilt now. Modern sports motorcycles are better now than most of us are riders.

I think it's great that discerning riders want to improve the ride quality of their bikes by spending money with you...and I'll never argue that you don't give them that. I've said it before Robert, and I'll say it again. I've heard nothing but good reports about the work you do. You're obviously incredibly good at what you know and do. I'm not out to in anyway try and take work away from you...and from reading your posts...it sounds like you've got too much on your plate at any one time anyway.

And that's great. But why can't you leave a post about 'Production racing' alone?



Who's 'Mishy'?

I asked a reasonably simple question regarding the demise of 'production racing' Robert. It went something like this...name ONE road racer that's set the world on fire since we've not had a proper 'proddie class'. Gav (I think it was) at least answered with "Dom Jones'. You haven't...'Mishy' hasn't!

You all dance around the question with fancy replies...but you've got no answer!

And has the rest of the world moved on...I mean have they really?

Do they not have the Red Bull Rookies Cup? Is this not a ONE MAKE series to see what youngster can actually ride better than the next? Didn't James Toseland come from something like the Honda GB500 Cup or something? Don't the Poms have an R6 cup...then move the winner of that onto a Superbike?

Didn't Ben Bostrom win the AMA 883 Twinsport (one make again hate to say it) series?



'Institutionalised'? Yep...the thing is this...if you preach the sky is falling often enough, a certain percentage of the population will eventually believe you.

They may even do something about it.

The rest of us will trust our own judgment.

You dont give up do you? Check out Scrachas recent post, he got some very good points across without offensive language. As for expletives, I use exactly those words at time to time but still have enough personal restraint and respect for maintaining some form of standards to know where it is not appropriate to use them.
I simply dont believe that production racing in its purest sense is the holy grail of dramatically increasing grid numbers. It would have some effect yes but the cost issues are as much about getting to and from meetings, accomodation etc. And that ditch of water.
I know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension, maybe thats possible because I work with it day in, day out. But I also believe that those who aspire to higher standards should not be victimised / despised. And sorry but that is highly evident in the demeanour of your posts. Again, full marks to Scracha for providing a balanced appraisal of the arguments.
Overexposure, well I guess I can blame some of my customers for that. And you wont find near anything from Showa and WP because on all fronts there is very little activity, albeit good products capable of running at the front with proper backup and infrastructure. I guess I should stop helping people because Ill get over-exposed????
I stand by my main salient points. It is SAD that you cannot gracefully accept what I have said without exploding a tirade of expletives ( disagreeing is fine ) I have submitted opposing arguments and Mishy has also raised some very relevant points. So be it.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=Crasherfromwayback;1818111]First of all Robert...I could understand if you were upset by the use of my vocabulary if said four letter words were directed at you. They weren't...so you need to get over yourself. If you're offended by me saying "go faster than the next cunt" or whatever it was...you need to log on to www.godfearingdogooders.com.

'Sad'? I'll tell you what I think is 'Sad'. I think it's SAD that you have nothing else to say on this site other than 'stock suspension is no jolly good'. Oh I'm sure if I spent a week or more looking I could find a post or two of yours that doesn't say such...but I really can't be fucked.

Do I single out 'Ohlins'? Yep...because I've not found a 'White Power' or Showa' rep here that does nothing but promote their goods on any and every post regarding anything motorcycling. If I did...I'd tell them to give it a rest too.


And off topic? Well Robert...the thread is/WAS about 'true production racing was/is it not?

So are you not the one the keeps taking it off said subject??



Of course it's not a democracy...it's a fucking website! We say what we think...people either agree and say so...or don't and say so. There's no 'vote'.

And you shouldn't care that I (and others) wind you up. I sure as fuck don't.

Now then..."Current bikes"? Are you fucking (love that word) kidding me? "Current bikes" have suspension that is so much closer to power outputs than they ever were! Have you never ridden an H1...or a Z1? The power output was ten times better than the suspension and chassis. I owned a Z1RTC, and I know all about power vs chassis. We're all spoilt now. Modern sports motorcycles are better now than most of us are riders.

I think it's great that discerning riders want to improve the ride quality of their bikes by spending money with you...and I'll never argue that you don't give them that. I've said it before Robert, and I'll say it again. I've heard nothing but good reports about the work you do. You're obviously incredibly good at what you know and do. I'm not out to in anyway try and take work away from you...and from reading your posts...it sounds like you've got too much on your plate at any one time anyway.

And that's great. But why can't you leave a post about 'Production racing' alone?




You dont give up do you? Check out Scrachas recent post, he got some very good points across without offensive language. As for expletives, I use exactly those words at time to time but still have enough personal restraint and respect for maintaining some form of standards to know where it is not appropriate to use them.
I simply dont believe that production racing in its purest sense is the holy grail of dramatically increasing grid numbers. It would have some effect yes but the cost issues are as much about getting to and from meetings, accomodation etc. And that ditch of water. The world is also more complex than in the 70s!
I know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension, maybe thats possible because I work with it day in, day out. But I also believe that those who aspire to higher standards should not be victimised / despised. And sorry but that is highly evident in the demeanour of your posts. Again, full marks to Scracha for providing a balanced appraisal of the arguments.
Overexposure, well I guess I can blame some of my customers for that. And you wont find near anything from Showa and WP because on all fronts there is very little activity, albeit good products capable of running at the front with proper backup and infrastructure. I guess I should stop helping people because Ill get over-exposed????
I stand by my main salient points. It is SAD that you cannot gracefully accept what I have said without exploding a tirade of expletives ( disagreeing is fine ) I have submitted opposing arguments and Mishy has also raised some very relevant points. So be it. AND, I am just as entitled to comment about production racing as you are.

[vtec]

Mishy, why shouldn't "John Smith" have a fair chance at racing the top guys? Production 600's would kick arse.

Robert, we are not victimising you at all. You're getting a bit emotional. I felt like we've given you plenty of praise to keep your feelings in one piece. Also, why should Crasher give up when you don't?

How about this. Have a 600 production class, and supersport as it is, and let the riders decide which class they can afford to race in, get the most enjoyment from, and get the best bang for buck. Not only that, a winner from said class would be pretty damn fair winner. Sure there'll be differences between manufacturers, but I think that would be good motivation for manufacturers to build the best bike straight from the factory, currently i think this is a big part of their motivation for building such awesome bikes.

F3 is rooted as a stepping stone. SV650's ... well I just don't like them as has been said they are lazy lumps, and its opportunity to be a true production class has failed. 125 GP and 250GP bikes just don't get raced anymore for very good reasons.

A solution to all this would have been the manufacturers to produce decent 400's as of old like the ZXR and VFR etc. But they haven't. Damn that would be the ULTIMATE production race class. Tyres would last, power would be comparable between all the bikes, and comparatively safe racing at sub 250kph speeds.

[Ivan]

I dont like pulling off topic but I want to say something regard the comment on SV's ruining F3.

F3 class is great and aint ruined the thing is the manafacutrers dont make modern sports bike 400cc any more. You need a way of making the class carry onto the modern age or else it will become post classic with another name.

The SV isnt the miracle bike everyone talks about either I race one and yeah it pulls from corners alot faster than 400s but its top end aint much higher and Ive had 400s straight line past me, But the 400 is a far better bike at corerning.

The SV is not "Lazy" either yes you have alot of Torque but you have to be careful how far you push its buttons or else you will be highsided.

But I think Shaun owns the bikes owns the class he went through his hard work and time to organise this why cant he decideon what he wants.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You dont give up do you? Check out Scrachas recent post, he got some very good points across without offensive language. As for expletives, I use exactly those words at time to time but still have enough personal restraint and respect for maintaining some form of standards to know where it is not appropriate to use them.


I simply dont believe that production racing in its purest sense is the holy grail of dramatically increasing grid numbers. It would have some effect yes but the cost issues are as much about getting to and from meetings, accomodation etc. And that ditch of water.


I know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension, maybe thats possible because I work with it day in, day out. But I also believe that those who aspire to higher standards should not be victimised / despised. And sorry but that is highly evident in the demeanour of your posts. Again, full marks to Scracha for providing a balanced appraisal of the arguments.

I stand by my main salient points. It is SAD that you cannot gracefully accept what I have said without exploding a tirade of expletives ( disagreeing is fine ) I have submitted opposing arguments and Mishy has also raised some very relevant points. So be it.

Ok Robert...this is the last time I'll ask you any questions, as it's blindingly obvious you hide behind drivel instead of taking the time to answer them.

My 'responses' here are in order going from the top. I've 'gapped' your 'responses' so you know which bit of your post I'm referring to....in what order.

Do I ever give up? No. I'm a stubborn fucker. I'm glad that being stubborn is part of my makeup. It's helped me achieve certain things that to this day I'm extremely proud of. 'Expletives'? You use them when you think the time is right or 'appropriate'? So do I. I'd never use such foul language around my mother...certain girlfriends I've had...or 95% of my customers. So what gives you the right to say when or where they're 'appropriate' on this site? It's a fucking 'biker' site FFS. Most 'bikers' I know use such words frequently.

Now...the 'Holy Grail' bit. If you realize that here in good old NZ half (if not most) of the problem for aspiring racers is travel and the bit of water that we must all cross, and the cost to do so...why on earth would we want to add to said cost by having to run expensive suspension etc to remain competitive?

Next...You know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension? What...from a 'racers' point of view...or from an 'Ohlins' dealer point of view?
Can you ride a modern sportsbike past the limits of it's 'stock suspension' capability? I'll bet you can't!

Do I personally 'victimise' or 'despise' racers that have 'top line suspension'?

Where'd you get that idea Robert? As I've said repeatadly...I've raced proddie bikes and bikes with (funnily enough) Ohlins suspension. You see...I'd love nothing more than to see young NZ road racers reach greater hights...but making them have to have the most expensive equipment avail is hardly going to help the cause.

So now why don't you look back through my previous posts that include you, and see if instead of telling me what a potty mouth I have...if you can actually answer the other questions I've asked you without sounding like some purified offspring of Patricia Bartlet.

You need to get out more.:baby:

[gav]

When you guys talk about running Standard and Bog Stock 600's just how standard are they? If its as its off the shop floor, its going to be pretty damn expensive replacing OEM fairings and screens, exhausts, footpegs, clipons, etc isnt it? Standard gearing? standard brakepads? Fluids? Air filters etc?
And if you allow all the above you're pretty close to SP spec anyway except suspension aren't you?

[Mishy]

Mishy, why shouldn't "John Smith" have a fair chance at racing the top guys?

F3 is rooted as a stepping stone. SV650's ... well I just don't like them as has been said they are lazy lumps, and its opportunity to be a true production class has failed. 125 GP and 250GP bikes just don't get raced anymore for very good reasons.

Hey :) my point was that changing the rules in the belief that half the field are going to get up compete with the top guys is never going to work out that way. Everybody can race with the tops guys if they are that fast as it is, but there is a big difference in skill and natural ability that just won't change, even if you do try to "level the playing field" .
As far as the GP classes go, well 250 did fall over due to lack of support (I raced them and LOVED it, but you just can't have 3 bikes a meeting at that level) but 125 seems to be (currently) our biggest breeding ground for toung talent. Did you see any 125 racing here last year ? it was actually VERY good, well subscribed, and fastish to boot. Gotta keep that class !

[Mishy]

I dont like pulling off topic but I want to say something regard the comment on SV's ruining F3.

F3 class is great and aint ruined the thing is the manafacutrers dont make modern sports bike 400cc any more. You need a way of making the class carry onto the modern age or else it will become post classic with another name.

The SV isnt the miracle bike everyone talks about either I race one and yeah it pulls from corners alot faster than 400s but its top end aint much higher and Ive had 400s straight line past me, But the 400 is a far better bike at corerning.

The SV is not "Lazy" either yes you have alot of Torque but you have to be careful how far you push its buttons or else you will be highsided.

But I think Shaun owns the bikes owns the class he went through his hard work and time to organise this why cant he decideon what he wants.

Food for thought from the guy on the front line . . . . . . . . .
You should speak your mind more often Mr, It's worth hearing.

[puddytat]

The point to this dribble is, ALL of the above can be learned on a std production bike!!!!! Fuckin Cheap, no $3000 front fork kits, or $3000 shocks or $800 stearing dampers

Just saved near on $7000-00--- And there is ya full season running costs of a STD 600 Production bike, where many many many riders have learned there skill.


:

Thats my theory too:yes:

[Mishy]

When you guys talk about running Standard and Bog Stock 600's just how standard are they? If its as its off the shop floor, its going to be pretty damn expensive replacing OEM fairings and screens, exhausts, footpegs, clipons, etc isnt it? Standard gearing? standard brakepads? Fluids? Air filters etc?
And if you allow all the above you're pretty close to SP spec anyway except suspension aren't you?

Fine questions indeed ! and who would know but the rule makers ? I suspect that any proddy class would have to be allowed replica fairings as a common sense item, and gearing has been optional in such classes in the past, as well as brake pad material. I think I get your drift on this one, fairings plus a screen plus a spare set plus some other stuff does start to add up like any other class.
Perhaps it would be useful to consider an unfaired class as a proddy class ?

[scracha]

I dont like pulling off topic but I want to say something regard the comment on SV's ruining F3.

Who said that?



You need a way of making the class carry onto the modern age or else it will become post classic with another name.

Why carry on with F3? The big jap 4 aren't making 250cc two strokes or 400cc 4 strokes anymore. Odd aforementioned expensive 450 hand grenade excepted, the class has had only one competitive type of bike for the last few years. AFAIK you're in Pro Twins yourself so that says something doesn't it? If there's a shortage of time/money and it's a choice between having F3 or production 600 (or some other class that can inject more interest and rider development at reasonable cost) then I'd rather see the demise of F3 (even if there's one less class to shove my old 400 in). And yeah, there's large numbers in F3 but compared to other "formula" classes, there's a disproportionate number of riders who're doing F3 for fun and not seriously competing for top positions. Not that I'm against fun (hell, that's why I race) but it's supposed to be an "elite" formula class. Look at the bikes competing in a class and adjust the rules to encourage competitive racing and control costs. Getting other bikes like F800's, GSR600's, FZ6's or XJ6 diversions into F3 might revive interest.

As for ozzies bike, I'm impressed how he's worked around the rules but as I've explained in another thread, it'll end up no cheaper than F2 (brand new R4.5, power commander, full ohlins + more servicing as it's running on 3 cylinders).

400's in post classics..yeah fine. But I can't understand why there's a 600cc limit when 99% of the available pre 89 post classic junior bikes in NZ are the 400's (in other countries 600's were popular in 89 but not here) . Again, needless extra cost to be competitive. With certain limitations, a rolling "10 years and over" class or similar would be far more interesting. Again, not reinventing the wheel as it's done in other clubs abroad.



The SV isnt the miracle bike everyone talks about either I race one and yeah it pulls from corners a lot faster than 400s but its top end aint much higher and Ive had 400s straight line past me, But the 400 is a far better bike at corerning.

A sorted 400 may be better at cornering than the pro-twins spec SV perhaps, but not the F3 spec SV's a lot of peeps are running. As for top end....any 400 that's passing you on the straights is likely to be either very tuned, have a 45Kg rider or simply came out of the previous corner faster (no offence like). 55ish ponies versus 70ish.



But I think Shaun owns the bikes owns the class he went through his hard work and time to organise this why cant he decideon what he wants.
Not quite sure what you mean Ivan?

[Mishy]

ALL of the above can be learned on a std production bike!!!!! Fuckin Cheap, no $3000 front fork kits, or $3000 shocks or $800 stearing dampers
:

So, which flavour of bike are we talking about then ? hint hint . . . . .
I like to fly kites :)

[Mishy]

Why carry on with F3? The big jap 4 aren't making 250cc two strokes or 400cc 4 strokes anymore. Odd aforementioned expensive 450 hand grenade excepted, the class has had only one competitive type of bike for the last few years. AFAIK you're in Pro Twins yourself so that says something doesn't it? If there's a shortage of time/money and it's a choice between having F3 or production 600 (or some other class that can inject more interest and rider development at reasonable cost) then I'd rather see the demise of F3 (even if there's one less class to shove my old 400 in). And yeah, there's large numbers in F3 but compared to other "formula" classes, there's a disproportionate number of riders who're doing F3 for fun and not seriously competing for top positions. Not that I'm against fun (hell, that's why I race) but it's supposed to be an "elite" formula class. Look at the bikes competing in a class and adjust the rules to encourage competitive racing and control costs. Getting other bikes like F800's, GSR600's, FZ6's or XJ6 diversions into F3 might revive interest.
As for ozzies bike, I'm impressed how he's worked around the rules but as I've explained in another thread, it'll end up no cheaper than F2 (brand new R4.5, power commander, full ohlins + more servicing as it's running on 3 cylinders).
400's in post classics..yeah fine. But I can't understand why there's a 600cc limit when 99% of the available pre 89 post classic junior bikes in NZ are the 400's (in other countries 600's were popular in 89 but not here) . Again, needless extra cost to be competitive. With certain limitations, a rolling "10 years and over" class or similar would be far more interesting. Again, not reinventing the wheel as it's done in other clubs abroad.
A sorted 400 may be better at cornering than the pro-twins spec SV perhaps, but not the F3 spec SV's a lot of peeps are running. As for top end....any 400 that's passing you on the straights is likely to be either very tuned, have a 45Kg rider or simply came out of the previous corner faster (no offence like). 55ish ponies versus 70ish.
Not quite sure what you mean Ivan?


So you are against the idea of having F3 as a class for the less serious racer to go racing for fun on whatever they happen to put together on a small budget ?

[gammaguy]

Hey :) my point was that changing the rules in the belief that half the field are going to get up compete with the top guys is never going to work out that way. Everybody can race with the tops guys if they are that fast as it is, but there is a big difference in skill and natural ability that just won't change, even if you do try to "level the playing field" .
As far as the GP classes go, well 250 did fall over due to lack of support (I raced them and LOVED it, but you just can't have 3 bikes a meeting at that level) but 125 seems to be (currently) our biggest breeding ground for toung talent. Did you see any 125 racing here last year ? it was actually VERY good, well subscribed, and fastish to boot. Gotta keep that class !

totally agree,which also proves that the spectators(wether we like it or not,they pay the bills ultimately)enjoy close racing and dont particularly care what type of machine is racing.obviously as the knowledge of the public increases a preference for different (usually bigger/faster/noisier)types of bike comes in.if we all want to race/spanner/hang on to this sport,we gotta make it viable for all to be involved,as we all know there is no such thing as cheap racing.

Or do we all just want "pure"racing,to hell with everyone else and lets just race what we want?thats a downward spiral IMHO(even though i miss the strokers!)its all about relevance.

[Shaun]

So, which flavour of bike are we talking about then ? hint hint . . . . .
I like to fly kites :)



Suck me big boy

[crazy blanket]

Suck me big boy

Wash yer mouth Harris...you didn't tell me you were a fag ha ha!!!!

[HDTboy]

Haven't you seen him walking round the pits? He's always got a fag in his mouth CB

[wharfy]

A class with no mods like Shaun has proposed would be a greatway of getting introduced to the bigger 600 field before taking the gamble of running a full 600 supersport spec bike.

Hope it takes success and will be watching this space good luck Shaun

Me too, I'm VERY keen to find out the details, I could well be a starter.

[scrivy]

Haven't you seen him walking round the pits? He's always got a fag in his mouth CB

Have you never been asked at a prizegiving when hes had a bit of piss, to help him back onto his seat - or put plainly, to push his stool in for him.............. :blink:

[k14]

125 GP and 250GP bikes just don't get raced anymore for very good reasons.


As far as the GP classes go, well 250 did fall over due to lack of support (I raced them and LOVED it, but you just can't have 3 bikes a meeting at that level) but 125 seems to be (currently) our biggest breeding ground for toung talent. Did you see any 125 racing here last year ? it was actually VERY good, well subscribed, and fastish to boot. Gotta keep that class !
Yes thank you for putting that point straight. Vtec, get your head out of the sand, 125GP racing in New Zealand and the world has never been stronger. Still getting 40+ grids at MotoGP! Along with up to 15 at the NZ champs it was the most consistently subscribed class along with 600's last year. As for the racing (and of course I am biased) it was the best, hands down, out of any of the classes. Top 10 covered by 2 seconds after 10 laps at Puke. Add to that the fact that any young guy that has been fast on a 600 in nationals in recent times did their apprenticeship on 125's (Smith, Lawrence, Midge Smart, Charlet) and you see how important the class is. It is not going anywhere for at least another 5 years!

[Ivan]

Food for thought from the guy on the front line . . . . . . . . .
You should speak your mind more often Mr, It's worth hearing.


Hah Im hoping thats a good thing Mishy? I dont understand 100% what that ment but I guess its good

[scracha]

So you are against the idea of having F3 as a class for the less serious racer to go racing for fun on whatever they happen to put together on a small budget ?

Dunno where you get that idea from as it's the complete opposite of the message I was trying to convey? I mentioned that I'm one of these racers on a limited budget in it for the fun. My point was that the current rules mean that racing competitively in F3 is not longer low budget (power commander, ohlins, gsxr front end, different cams, etc) and there are very few competitive bikes (bored out 400, moddied Sv650, weird 3 cyl 600 or the odd single). I did mention changing the F3 rules to bring in more modern and more relevant bikes (F800's, GSR600's, FZ6's, whatever..GSX750's even) and having limitations to keep the racing competitive and interesting. If guys like me on $hite old 20 year old 400's get booted out of F3 cos the rules change and we no longer have a chance of qualifying then thats probably no bad thing (there's always post classics). I'd rather shell out on a cheap used bandit 600 or FZ6 or summit than sink money into a 20 year old bike. Besides...I don't like SV650's :-)

For "budget limiting", I also mentioned formula 400 and/or a rolling "10 year old bikes and over" class. Even the pre89 junior is getting stupid (ohlins shod FZR 6/4 anyone?).

I also don't see the point of allowing clubmans racers to run full wets.

[ajturbo]

If you do not have a good set up man, there is NO point to having trick shit in ya bike.

:

dam.. you mean it was a waste of time painting my fuel tank then:bash:

[vtec]

Yes thank you for putting that point straight. Vtec, get your head out of the sand, 125GP racing in New Zealand and the world has never been stronger. Still getting 40+ grids at MotoGP! Along with up to 15 at the NZ champs it was the most consistently subscribed class along with 600's last year. As for the racing (and of course I am biased) it was the best, hands down, out of any of the classes. Top 10 covered by 2 seconds after 10 laps at Puke. Add to that the fact that any young guy that has been fast on a 600 in nationals in recent times did their apprenticeship on 125's (Smith, Lawrence, Midge Smart, Charlet) and you see how important the class is. It is not going anywhere for at least another 5 years!

Sorry, you're right RS125's are big at Nationals, but at club level in the North Island you get very limited numbers. So yes a great starting point for racers, but when I wanted to start racing I found it difficult to find a decent condition affordable RS125 to race, as that's what you need when you are starting, a cheap reliable bike that you can afford to crash. Streetstock fit the bill better. But after streetstock, I think you need a bigger step up than 125's (more weight and power to handle etc, I know 125's are fast). You really need 400's production bikes which they don't make anymore. 650 twins are close and I've seen some of them cornering amazing (but I just don't like them; lazy power delivery :P), but a production 600 class would be better.

Also about 125GP bikes, I reckon 5 years max and there'll be nearly none left. Two stroke is being phased out everywhere.

The rules that I think would be fair to apply to production 600's would be (IMO):
Fibreglass fairings.
Sprocket size changes.
Control tyres
A steering dampener if necessary
and that's it.

[brads]

"The rules that I think would be fair to apply to production 600's would be (IMO):
Fibreglass fairings.
Sprocket size changes.
Control tyres
A steering dampener if necessary
and that's it".[/QUOTE]

Braided brake lines?,tyre warmers? Trying to bring back rules we had in the 80s,I just cant see that happening,times have changed,remember when you could sit in the back of dads ute on the way to the rubbish dump and back,leave home in the morning,return at night and not once telling mum where you were?? That was then,this is now,tyres warmers bought in because it reduced the number of crashes on cold tyres,set of warmers well below cost of throwing it down the road,brake lines I think is a must have.

Proddy racing was HUGE back in the day,please someone tell me,why isnt it anywhere,anymore?

[sidecar bob]

Proddy racing was HUGE back in the day,please someone tell me,why isnt it anywhere,anymore?

Possibly because it is not commercially viable for aftermarket parts suppliers.
You can be fairly confident that some of the current classes exist because of pressure & lobbying from that quater.
You only need to look earlier in this thread to witness the level of evangalisim from the aftermarket supplier set.

[gammaguy]

Possibly because it is not commercially viable for aftermarket parts suppliers.
You can be fairly confident that some of the current classes exist because of pressure & lobbying from that quater.
You only need to look earlier in this thread to witness the level of evangalisim from the aftermarket supplier set.

yeah and if the distributors get involved suddenly we are proddy racing again.usually though it is up to the dealers to put a team together,like back in the day when the Wellington Motorcycles team was king of the hill.they had a shitload of(unofficial)backing from Suzuki though.

i dare anyone to say they didnt enjoy the racing in those days though.i sure did.:done:

[Mishy]

Suck me big boy

:) you cagy old bugger ! I'll weasel the info out of you one day ! ha ha !

I only push because i'm interested :)

[Mishy]

Dunno where you get that idea from as it's the complete opposite of the message I was trying to convey? I mentioned that I'm one of these racers on a limited budget in it for the fun. My point was that the current rules mean that racing competitively in F3 is not longer low budget (power commander, ohlins, gsxr front end, different cams, etc) and there are very few competitive bikes (bored out 400, moddied Sv650, weird 3 cyl 600 or the odd single). I did mention changing the F3 rules to bring in more modern and more relevant bikes (F800's, GSR600's, FZ6's, whatever..GSX750's even) and having limitations to keep the racing competitive and interesting. If guys like me on $hite old 20 year old 400's get booted out of F3 cos the rules change and we no longer have a chance of qualifying then thats probably no bad thing (there's always post classics). I'd rather shell out on a cheap used bandit 600 or FZ6 or summit than sink money into a 20 year old bike. Besides...I don't like SV650's :-)

For "budget limiting", I also mentioned formula 400 and/or a rolling "10 year old bikes and over" class. Even the pre89 junior is getting stupid (ohlins shod FZR 6/4 anyone?).

I also don't see the point of allowing clubmans racers to run full wets.
Cool, I was in two minds with the reference to the lack of people competing at the top, and just riding for fun. I see where your frustraion comes from with the changes in F3 machinery, and some of the cost's involved with "keeping up with the Jones's". Maybe those who have a mind too could lobby MNZ for some sort of rule change to include the bikes you mentioned ? I like F3, but have no involvement at present, so It's only a point of interest to me. If you don't like it the way it is, get busy changing it !
And as for Post Classic, well that can be as big a money pit as anything out there. Seems odd to me, but people seem to enjoy the experience . . . . .

[Mishy]

Possibly because it is not commercially viable for aftermarket parts suppliers.
You can be fairly confident that some of the current classes exist because of pressure & lobbying from that quater.
You only need to look earlier in this thread to witness the level of evangalisim from the aftermarket supplier set.

I think if you looked real hard you would see that the major bike distributors have more influence than any of the aftermarket suppliers. All of the big ones are heavily involved in racing at present (and we'd be SERIOUSLY screwd if they weren't) and their influence on rules and regs will be far greater that the Dunlop importer, or the Ohlins importer, or the Conti importer.Those involved with company's that have a heavy involvment with racing at present all seem to express their views passionately, and this is often misunderstood as self interest. Scratch the surface on you will find that there are a lot of people in these businesses that put a heap of time and effort in mostly because they just LOVE being involved. And without them we'd all be worse off. think about the input Pirelli have had over the years, what Conti did for their guys last year, or what Robert and Dennis put in. None of these guys are getting rich of the back of it ( trust me !) they just do it because they are passionate.

[Mishy]

o.k, so how many of you that advocate a stock 600 class would go out and buy a brand new 600 to do a season at national level on one ? $16000 (ish) buy in, plus fairings, wheels, spares, and a bunch of other stuff. How many would actually do that ?
fair question, no ?

[cowpoos]

o.k, so how many of you that advocate a stock 600 class would go out and buy a brand new 600 to do a season at national level on one ? $16000 (ish) buy in, plus fairings, wheels, spares, and a bunch of other stuff. How many would actually do that ?
fair question, no ?
I say no one...and if they did...they would find out that it may not be the fancy parts they whinge about not having/knowing how to setup..and they are just an average rider!!

and they probally already know it...so they won't put there money were there mouth is!!

[k14]

o.k, so how many of you that advocate a stock 600 class would go out and buy a brand new 600 to do a season at national level on one ? $16000 (ish) buy in, plus fairings, wheels, spares, and a bunch of other stuff. How many would actually do that ?
fair question, no ?
Exactly what I've been thinking. There are all these sideline critics talking on here but I bet none of them would front up if the class actually came to fruition.

Then you've got the point of where do you make the cut? As already said, do you allow aftermarket end cans (to cut costs, what's an oem worth). Then aftermarket pegs, bars, rearsets for the same reason. Braided front line for "safety". Then all of a sudden the only difference between these bikes are power commander and suspension. Is it worth it?

[Shaun]

Wash yer mouth Harris...you didn't tell me you were a fag ha ha!!!!



last time I saw you touch ya toes I was in dude, you may not have notuced as I am quite small compared to your ARSE haha Hi John

[Shaun]

Have you never been asked at a prizegiving when hes had a bit of piss, to help him back onto his seat - or put plainly, to push his stool in for him.............. :blink:




The Aussie side car boys, just passed me around above there heads in Napier a few moons back

[Billy]

I say no one...and if they did...they would find out that it may not be the fancy parts they whinge about not having/knowing how to setup..and they are just an average rider!!

and they probally already know it...so they won't put there money were there mouth is!!

Sadly I would say youre dead right.Theres probably only 2 people that Ive seen post on here that are likely to rush out and set themselves up for a full National championship (Vtec and Sketchy racer).But thats all irelevant anyway cause I dont see where this new Production class would fit in,It couldnt be run in conjunction with 600sp as the fast guys in that class would eliminate most of the proddy feild in qualifying and short of dropping another class theres nowhere else for it too go.The only other place to kick it off would be club level and it appears obvious too me the club scene (in the north island atleast)has its hands full already with the classes they are running now.Thats not too say the idea doesnt have merit,Production racing of old produced some of the best racing and racers this country has seen and clearly the riders learnt better racecraft then than they do under the current format(125gp and streetstock south island style aside) and it produced bigger sales of roadbikes.

[sidecar bob]

Exactly what I've been thinking. There are all these sideline critics talking on here but I bet none of them would front up if the class actually came to fruition.


I would be but im already comitted with two classes & three machines.
If you dumb bastards could figure out that a proper racebike needs three wheels then id be in. ;)

Seriously though, juniour proddy was pretty big back in the day, so i dont know what you base that assumption on.

[scracha]

Seriously though, juniour proddy was pretty big back in the day, so i dont know what you base that assumption on.
Seconded. I'd hazard a guess that the sort of guys (and gals) who leapt out and bought the proddy bikes would also be the sort of people who would still qualify if it were run alongside F2.

[sidecar bob]

I think if you looked real hard you would see that the major bike distributors have more influence than any of the aftermarket suppliers. All of the big ones are heavily involved in racing at present (and we'd be SERIOUSLY screwd if they weren't) and their influence on rules and regs will be far greater that the Dunlop importer, or the Ohlins importer, or the Conti importer.Those involved with company's that have a heavy involvment with racing at present all seem to express their views passionately, and this is often misunderstood as self interest. Scratch the surface on you will find that there are a lot of people in these businesses that put a heap of time and effort in mostly because they just LOVE being involved. And without them we'd all be worse off. think about the input Pirelli have had over the years, what Conti did for their guys last year, or what Robert and Dennis put in. None of these guys are getting rich of the back of it ( trust me !) they just do it because they are passionate.

Regardless of wether the machine is run standard or has $35,000 worth of fine goodies bolted on, a base machine is required to start with, so the importers have the market cornered in either case.
That leaves the ball squarely in the aftermarket court to lobby for modified machines.

[scrivy]

The Aussie side car boys, just passed me around above there heads in Napier a few moons back

You mean they were blowing their fags into the air?? :shutup::shifty::wari:

[Crasherfromwayback]

o.k, so how many of you that advocate a stock 600 class would go out and buy a brand new 600 to do a season at national level on one ? $16000 (ish) buy in, plus fairings, wheels, spares, and a bunch of other stuff. How many would actually do that ?
fair question, no ?

Now I'm with you there! And that is, and always has been my point.

Who gives a fuck what you're racing if you're (as a racer) simply trying to prove your abilities on the cheap?

So why use a 16k 600 race rep?

What about a GS500 ($7750.00) Suzuki or similar bike from any of the big brands?

I know they're not a 'race bike'...but neither are 883 Sportsters. I had more fun racing an 883 than anything else I've raced.

If the end result is good enough (help with a ride in a 'true' racing class)...that should attract people.

1 set of tyres per round...no modifications other than jetting, gearing and fucking with stock suspension (so the riders do get to try and learn what works and what doesn't).

Repeating myself I know...but James Toseland and GB500 cup?

[Mishy]

Now I'm with you there! And that is, and always has been my point.

Who gives a fuck what you're racing if you're (as a racer) simply trying to prove your abilities on the cheap?

So why use a 16k 600 race rep?

What about a GS500 ($7750.00) Suzuki or similar bike from any of the big brands?



Yup, and this is exactly why I can't see any point in pushing for big changes to 600SP any time soon. The only guys who will buy a new one seem to be the exact same guys that are racing right at the front (with a few exceptions). So, who's showing the courage of their convictions and manning up with money for Shaun's bikes ? It makes a lot more sense as a busget class than pulling back the rules on the 600SP class.Shaun's got big balls doing what he's doing (respect), and based on the comment here there should be loads of people flooding his way to get involved.

[wharfy]

o.k, so how many of you that advocate a stock 600 class would go out and buy a brand new 600 to do a season at national level on one ? $16000 (ish) buy in, plus fairings, wheels, spares, and a bunch of other stuff. How many would actually do that ?
fair question, no ?

Fair Yes
Maybe not a brand new one, but one with wheels :) (an 06 around $9K -$11K depending on condition - whats the going rate ) ?
I already have paddock stands and tyre warmers (if they were allowed) . Maybe I would not do a complete National Series as I know I would not be in contention, but it sure would be fun to do some of them and I would like to think there would be some close (ish) racing in the middle of the pack (where I would hope to be ) If I am total rubbish as a racer then it would be obvious but it would not have cost me a fortune to find out. On the other hand if I can run in the middle of the field and come back to the pits with an adrenaline tremor, and hang out with the real racers for a moderate investment I would be as happy as a pig in shit.
I am VERY keen to check out Shaun's proposal.

[jrandom]

$16000 (ish) buy in, plus fairings, wheels, spares, and a bunch of other stuff. How many would actually do that ?

:lol:

Doing your best to stretch the point, aren't you?

Try $10K on tardme for a year-old road bike with big chicken strips, and $500 per race meet on a single set of tyres.

And, yes, I would do that. I love riding bikes enough to spend that much money on the sport. But no more, because I can only devote so much of my life and income to it, y'dig?

And I'm well aware that I could theoretically do that right now - but what's the point if I know that any of the front runners would be a good few seconds a lap slower just by hopping off their bikes and onto mine? Takes the fun out of it.

All I sniff in this thread is a minority of guys trying to type sufficient bullshit to drown out a clear call for racing rule changes that would make it difficult for them to flog expensive performance parts.

And it smells kinda bad to me.

[Sketchy_Racer]

:lol:

Doing your best to stretch the point, aren't you?

Try $10K on tardme for a year-old road bike with big chicken strips, and $500 per race meet on a single set of tyres.

And, yes, I would do that. I love riding bikes enough to spend that much money on the sport. But no more, because I can only devote so much of my life and income to it, y'dig?

And I'm well aware that I could theoretically do that right now - but what's the point if I know that any of the front runners would be a good few seconds a lap slower just by hopping off their bikes and onto mine? Takes the fun out of it.

All I sniff in this thread is a minority of guys trying to type sufficient bullshit to drown out a clear call for racing rule changes that would make it difficult for them to flog expensive performance parts.

And it smells kinda bad to me.

You can pick up a respectable 2005 GSXR600 for 7k.. I think would fit the class quite well.

[jrandom]

You can pick up a respectable 2005 GSXR600 for 7k.. I think would fit the class quite well.

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

[gammaguy]

everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.


yeah,and without guys "not racing"but instead working on bikes,suspension whatever,where would all the "guys who race"be?

[gav]

:lol:

Doing your best to stretch the point, aren't you?

Try $10K on tardme for a year-old road bike with big chicken strips, and $500 per race meet on a single set of tyres.



Except alot of the time the bikes have so much bling on them and it would need to in production trim? Might have emulators fitted? Aftermarket pipe, P/C, K&N filter etc, all need to swap back to proddy spec .....

[gav]

Fair Yes
Maybe not a brand new one, but one with wheels :) (an 06 around $9K -$11K depending on condition - whats the going rate ) ?
I already have paddock stands and tyre warmers (if they were allowed) . Maybe I would not do a complete National Series as I know I would not be in contention, but it sure would be fun to do some of them and I would like to think there would be some close (ish) racing in the middle of the pack (where I would hope to be ) If I am total rubbish as a racer then it would be obvious but it would not have cost me a fortune to find out. On the other hand if I can run in the middle of the field and come back to the pits with an adrenaline tremor, and hang out with the real racers for a moderate investment I would be as happy as a pig in shit.
I am VERY keen to check out Shaun's proposal.

Good to see your enthusiasm, but rounds of the National race series arent really where you should be trying out this road racing lark? How many club days have done? Have you got a competition licence? How many entries on it?

[HDTboy]

Try $10K on tardme for a year-old road bike with big chicken strips, and $500 per race meet on a single set of tyres.

And, yes, I would do that. I love riding bikes enough to spend that much money on the sport. But no more, because I can only devote so much of my life and income to it, y'dig?

And I'm well aware that I could theoretically do that right now - but what's the point if I know that any of the front runners would be a good few seconds a lap slower just by hopping off their bikes and onto mine? Takes the fun out of it.

Jason Hulme was on a $16k second hand race bike at Wanganui last year. He was using a set of 3 tyres per meeting at the national series.
These are the sort of costs you propose. From what I recall he did rather well, constantly running in the top 5, and getting a fair amount of TV coverage.

What's stopping you doing the same Dan? Stop talking about it and go out and to the best you can with the current situation rather than trying to change the situation to fit you. Gav makes a very good point.

Lets assume there's a "true production" class. I buy a brand new wreck from an insurance company, it may happen to have a shiny gold shock in the back, and the exhaust dented to the point it doesn't flow. Go price up a stock shock and exhaust system for me cause these bits will need replacing before i hit the track, then price up an alternative aftermarket exhaust. Which way would keep my costs down the best?

I'd like to see anything goes in our premier classes, as that is the source of innovative ideas. Development is currently stifled to the point of non-existence.

[Shaun]

Good to see your enthusiasm, but rounds of the National race series arent really where you should be trying out this road racing lark? How many club days have done? Have you got a competition licence? How many entries on it?



A Polite question for you GAV

are you actually interested in this class as a potentuall rider?

I am just trying to figure out if you are an interested party, or just some one who has to add there 2 cents worth?

[jrandom]

What's stopping you doing the same Dan? Stop talking about it and go out and to the best you can with the current situation rather than trying to change the situation to fit you.

Nothing's stopping me.

:D

But after the '09 winter series, Clubmans will no longer be where I want to play.

And why not change the situation to fit me? It's not just me who feels this way.


... source of innovative ideas. Development is currently stifled to the point of non-existence.

You know I love you, bro, but I do also think you've got your head a little too far up RT's arse and have therefore swallowed a little too much propaganda.

Fuxache, motorcycle racing is not economy-stimulating R&D, it's just a sport. To listen to RT you'd think it was only slightly below more efficient dairy farming practices in terms of things that NZ scientists should be worrying about.

'Development' happens at the head offices of Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Triumph. (And Ohlins, of course, all hail the mighty Swedes with the elaborate and opaque pricing structure, etc.) Here, we just buy the results and go have fun on them.

(Yes, I know RT & Co spend ages twiddling shock settings to suit riders, and that's 'development'. But there are plenty of engine tuners around the country who spend even more time twiddling engines to make better power, and I don't see them in this thread preaching doom and gloom about the idea of production racing.)

My point is that some simple rule changes could halve the cost of a racing season and make the whole process a shitload easier to handle. That really is true.

I don't advocate scrapping the formula classes, but how about a matched 'proddy' class alongside each (like F3 and Pro Twins, but more 'proddy' than Pro Twins)?

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

the reality is that the nationals are lacking in numbers. Something has to be done to get the numbers up and the spectators on seats. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN BY ITSELF. In fact, the coming season and 2010 season will see either a reduction of numbers or reduced racing budgets as the economy tightens. For example, I know Brian Bernard is contending with a reduced budget this year. I can only speculate, but he may not be running the same number or riders this year, than last.

Point is, look at the big picture, motorcycle racing is struggling. Maybe proddie racing is what is needed to get the numbers and bums on seats? Look at the success on of the Suzuki Swift class! what a spectacle. great racing! CHEAP racing. ALthough, sorry Pete, but I couldnt race GB500's, would rather race bicycles! ;)


I would be keen to race a proddie class with gixxer 600's, just cant do it this season but will be on grid in 2010, just for the love of riding, racing and meeting people.

[madkeenandy]

You can pick up a respectable 2005 GSXR600 for 7k.. I think would fit the class quite well.

What will stop someone going out and buying the latest and greatest 600 and race it against your outdated model?

[Sketchy_Racer]

What will stop someone going out and buying the latest and greatest 600 and race it against your outdated model?

Nothing at all, That is something you will never be able to stop happening. It's how all proddy racing has ever worked out.

[Ivan]

yeah,and without guys "not racing"but instead working on bikes,suspension whatever,where would all the "guys who race"be?


Agreed Fully, Full ups to these guys including Shaun when he hasnt been riding helping people with suspension etc.

Also If you dont know Mishy used to race only up until a few years ago and was bloody fast on buckets and 250GP also seen him riding a 125GP and was quick as heck on that to


Shaun Id be fully in If I wasnt commited to my SV but have spent so much so far getting to a point and dont want to pull out now but in the future I would be very keen in a class like this

[HDTboy]

But after the '09 winter series, Clubmans will no longer be where I want to play.

Last year Chris won the winter series on a 3 year old bike while I was racing a 5 year old bike. No excuses for you



Fuxache, motorcycle racing is not economy-stimulating R&D,

'Development' happens at the head offices of Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Triumph. (And Ohlins, of course, all hail the mighty Swedes with the elaborate and opaque pricing structure, etc.) Here, we just buy the results and go have fun on them.

Have you read Top Dead Centre? Development is not all done in Japan. Ask Shaun how much work he'd do to a bike to make it faster if the rules allowed it. None of it's groundbreaking stuff, and it does not stimulate the economy, but it is fun, and there are people who take it to extremes.
Bill Buckley
Jason Easton
John Britten
Chris Osbourne
The guys with the 2T 750 triple
Burt Munro

[Robert Taylor]

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

Indeed neither of us race ( one used to ) but what is often overklooked is that we look after a lot of people at either minimal or no cost. We contribute a hell of a lot.
Check out Jay racers posts in a similiar thread, sound reasoning borne of coalface experience with up to date machinery.

[gammaguy]

the reality is that the nationals are lacking in numbers. Something has to be done to get the numbers up and the spectators on seats. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN BY ITSELF. In fact, the coming season and 2010 season will see either a reduction of numbers or reduced racing budgets as the economy tightens. For example, I know Brian Bernard is contending with a reduced budget this year. I can only speculate, but he may not be running the same number or riders this year, than last.

Point is, look at the big picture, motorcycle racing is struggling. Maybe proddie racing is what is needed to get the numbers and bums on seats? Look at the success on of the Suzuki Swift class! what a spectacle. great racing! CHEAP racing. ALthough, sorry Pete, but I couldnt race GB500's, would rather race bicycles! ;)


I would be keen to race a proddie class with gixxer 600's, just cant do it this season but will be on grid in 2010, just for the love of riding, racing and meeting people.


well said,and until some ppl realise that unless the sport is economically viable for everyone it will die.

IMHO puritism is for rich bastards,and the sport doesnt have enough of those to survive on its own,unless it is to become as noticeable as indoor darts to anyone except those doing it.i doubt that is what anyone wants,we need to preach to the converted sure,but also to convert more,as racers,riders and spectators.and of course,sponsors.

[Robert Taylor]

Nothing's stopping me.

:D

But after the '09 winter series, Clubmans will no longer be where I want to play.

And why not change the situation to fit me? It's not just me who feels this way.



You know I love you, bro, but I do also think you've got your head a little too far up RT's arse and have therefore swallowed a little too much propaganda.

Fuxache, motorcycle racing is not economy-stimulating R&D, it's just a sport. To listen to RT you'd think it was only slightly below more efficient dairy farming practices in terms of things that NZ scientists should be worrying about.

'Development' happens at the head offices of Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Triumph. (And Ohlins, of course, all hail the mighty Swedes with the elaborate and opaque pricing structure, etc.) Here, we just buy the results and go have fun on them.

(Yes, I know RT & Co spend ages twiddling shock settings to suit riders, and that's 'development'. But there are plenty of engine tuners around the country who spend even more time twiddling engines to make better power, and I don't see them in this thread preaching doom and gloom about the idea of production racing.)

My point is that some simple rule changes could halve the cost of a racing season and make the whole process a shitload easier to handle. That really is true.

I don't advocate scrapping the formula classes, but how about a matched 'proddy' class alongside each (like F3 and Pro Twins, but more 'proddy' than Pro Twins)?

Frankly, you make some very huge presumptions.

You have no idea how many hours I work, point of fact its very similiar to one leading engine tuner.

Opaque pricing structures, please elaborate at length....if you think Im getting wealthy then you are very very wrong.

Bear in mind that there are also lower cost but still very effective options, particularly in the field of piston kits for forks. Very soon Im modifying some 675 Triumph forks with some relatively new ''bending shim stack'' Race Tech mid valve pistons. Lets see how they work out compared to the ''full monty''

''Halve the cost of racing'' ( Apolgies for the abrupt response )...Bollocks. Youd have to include in that negotiating heavily reduced rates for fuel to get to and from the meetings, ferry crossings, accomodation, meals etc. Dont like your chances on that front.

I think Ill go and beat my head against a brick wall or sink a couple of bottles of red !, might get more sense back.

But in all fairness to Shauns proposal and following all the rhetoric ( largely from forum users only ) lets see how many put their money up front.

[Robert Taylor]

Ok Robert...this is the last time I'll ask you any questions, as it's blindingly obvious you hide behind drivel instead of taking the time to answer them.

My 'responses' here are in order going from the top. I've 'gapped' your 'responses' so you know which bit of your post I'm referring to....in what order.

Do I ever give up? No. I'm a stubborn fucker. I'm glad that being stubborn is part of my makeup. It's helped me achieve certain things that to this day I'm extremely proud of. 'Expletives'? You use them when you think the time is right or 'appropriate'? So do I. I'd never use such foul language around my mother...certain girlfriends I've had...or 95% of my customers. So what gives you the right to say when or where they're 'appropriate' on this site? It's a fucking 'biker' site FFS. Most 'bikers' I know use such words frequently.

Now...the 'Holy Grail' bit. If you realize that here in good old NZ half (if not most) of the problem for aspiring racers is travel and the bit of water that we must all cross, and the cost to do so...why on earth would we want to add to said cost by having to run expensive suspension etc to remain competitive?

Next...You know only too well the deficiencies of stock suspension? What...from a 'racers' point of view...or from an 'Ohlins' dealer point of view?
Can you ride a modern sportsbike past the limits of it's 'stock suspension' capability? I'll bet you can't!

Do I personally 'victimise' or 'despise' racers that have 'top line suspension'?

Where'd you get that idea Robert? As I've said repeatadly...I've raced proddie bikes and bikes with (funnily enough) Ohlins suspension. You see...I'd love nothing more than to see young NZ road racers reach greater hights...but making them have to have the most expensive equipment avail is hardly going to help the cause.

So now why don't you look back through my previous posts that include you, and see if instead of telling me what a potty mouth I have...if you can actually answer the other questions I've asked you without sounding like some purified offspring of Patricia Bartlet.

You need to get out more.:baby:

Suffice to say the demeanour of your post does you little credit. Your standards are clearly different to mine in many respects, and it matters not how I seek to justify my own standards and opinions. It is clear that you are deriving enjoyment out of obnoxiousness. ( All to be said. )
I steadfastly stand by my technical opinions.

[vtec]

Hey Robert, with our idea you wouldn't need to do so much work. You could sit back a bit more, watch some of the racing.

I'm sure you do a lot of your advice and adjustments for free. But like I've said before getting access to the kind of help you can offer is not easy. We want to ride WAAAA, WAAA. Look I'm breaking down. Just let us have a class in which it's all about the rider.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey Robert, with our idea you wouldn't need to do so much work. You could sit back a bit more, watch some of the racing.

I'm sure you do a lot of your advice and adjustments for free. But like I've said before getting access to the kind of help you can offer is not easy. We want to ride WAAAA, WAAA. Look I'm breaking down. Just let us have a class in which it's all about the rider.

Im not against cost controlled classes ( and never have been ) but re-emphasise that the elite classes ( and I have no problem with the meaning of elite ) should not be too diluted. That maintains broad relevance to the other first world countries who run such classes and raises the level of set up skill of the riders who aspire to greater things offshore.
It would be a sad day that you cannot learn the effects of valving changes etc until you travel to another country. We dont need to wholly talk ourselves into third world status.
If a reasonable balance can ( ultimately ) be achieved with a production class that runs within a ( say ) superstock class then I am all for it.
Regards set up skills / training we ( CKT ) have several initiatives planned for through next year to help broaden the knowledge base of those who desire same.

[Shaun]

Im not against cost controlled classes ( and never have been ) but re-emphasise that the elite classes ( and I have no problem with the meaning of elite ) should not be too diluted.

AGREED- But times are a changing ME ME

It would be a sad day that you cannot learn the effects of valving changes etc until you travel to another country. We dont need to wholly talk ourselves into third world status.

PC shit mate, keep it to the news papers would ya! It is after all the buisness community that has TOLD us we are in a financual issue stage of life again---Ba hahahaha ME ME


If a reasonable balance can ( ultimately ) be achieved with a production class that runs within a ( say ) superstock class then I am all for it.

Fantastic, as the the serious riders will be coming to see you in 12 months or so ( Thanks Oyster and the STH @ the moment) for trick suspension to go into the SS class, and try and Smoke the boys. ME ME

Regards set up skills / training we ( CKT ) have several initiatives planned for through next year to help broaden the knowledge base of those who desire same.


:niceone:-- Teach them what you can ME ME

[Mishy]

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

:) I did over 15 years of racing on lots of different machinery, and at a reasonbly high level, but I now put my time in helping a much younger, more talented rider. I'm at every national meeting, and I see the talent float to the top. Mostly that has meant 125, followed by 600SP. I can't say I've seen many super talented riders fail to get something going unless they lacked the drive to do so.

[crazy blanket]

Guys…I’ve been reading this thread for a bit of time now and although not directly affected as I live half way across the world from you all, I would still like to summarise my opinions by the following generalisations.

One thing is clear to me and that is the passion you guys have for your racing is on a par with us over here in Northern Ireland.

You also have a wealth of knowledge and experience from both sides of the track, be it racing or pit lane.

With all the comments provided from these different areas of expertise/enthusiasm, it is plain to see that as a consequence of one man’s initiative and foresight, there is enough support to enable this concept to fly.

With all initiatives and concepts there comes a time to ‘put up, or shut up’ I think this time is NOW guys.

You are fortunate to have someone in your midst who is prepared to stick their head above the parapet and take a chance. I know Shaun well enough to know he passionately believes in this concept from a perspective of providing something affordable for the masses in order to encourage folk who would probably never get the chance to race and therefore never find out how good they could really be because of the financial restrictions.

The debate on the rights/wrongs, feasibility/workability etc etc has to stop at some point and the thing needs to take flight in order for the REAL test to take place.

All I would suggest is this…..The time has come for ACTION…the plan is there, the layout is simple to follow, all interested parties only need to come forward with THEIR commitment and it will fly.

My personal opinion is that this concept, regardless of the pitfalls and the at times endless ‘point scoring’ on this thread, will take off and once in the air where the real problems and fine tuning can take place, will be a credit to you all and a realistic and affordable farm for fresh talent. Even a mad Scotsman with an equally mad passion for the roads can see this.

Good luck Shaun and to those of you, who have expressed interest, get behind this man and soak up some of his passion for your own good!

Good luck guys and keep ‘er lit!

John

[Tony.OK]

Guys…I’ve been reading this thread for a bit of time now and although not directly affected as I live half way across the world from you all, I would still like to summarise my opinions by the following generalisations.


Good luck guys and keep ‘er lit!

John

Well said that man....:niceone:

[Robert Taylor]

Guys…I’ve been reading this thread for a bit of time now and although not directly affected as I live half way across the world from you all, I would still like to summarise my opinions by the following generalisations.

One thing is clear to me and that is the passion you guys have for your racing is on a par with us over here in Northern Ireland.

You also have a wealth of knowledge and experience from both sides of the track, be it racing or pit lane.

With all the comments provided from these different areas of expertise/enthusiasm, it is plain to see that as a consequence of one man’s initiative and foresight, there is enough support to enable this concept to fly.

With all initiatives and concepts there comes a time to ‘put up, or shut up’ I think this time is NOW guys.

You are fortunate to have someone in your midst who is prepared to stick their head above the parapet and take a chance. I know Shaun well enough to know he passionately believes in this concept from a perspective of providing something affordable for the masses in order to encourage folk who would probably never get the chance to race and therefore never find out how good they could really be because of the financial restrictions.

The debate on the rights/wrongs, feasibility/workability etc etc has to stop at some point and the thing needs to take flight in order for the REAL test to take place.

All I would suggest is this…..The time has come for ACTION…the plan is there, the layout is simple to follow, all interested parties only need to come forward with THEIR commitment and it will fly.

My personal opinion is that this concept, regardless of the pitfalls and the at times endless ‘point scoring’ on this thread, will take off and once in the air where the real problems and fine tuning can take place, will be a credit to you all and a realistic and affordable farm for fresh talent. Even a mad Scotsman with an equally mad passion for the roads can see this.

Good luck Shaun and to those of you, who have expressed interest, get behind this man and soak up some of his passion for your own good!

Good luck guys and keep ‘er lit!

John

Fair enough comments, it needs to be emphasised heavily that it is largely one man ( Shaun ) taking a huge financial risk here and as I ( personally )see it he is effectively ''subsidising'' the racing hopes of those who may subscribe. If it fails it is not those who have subscribed ( or commented )who will have to pick up the pieces.
Actions are so much more difficult than rhetoric. If this carries through then he is deserved of respect for having the intestinal fortitude to do so. ( where others have failed before )

[Shaun]

Fair enough comments, it needs to be emphasised heavily that it is largely one man ( Shaun ) taking a huge financial risk here and as I ( personally )see it he is effectively ''subsidising'' the racing hopes of those who may subscribe. If it fails it is not those who have subscribed ( or commented )who will have to pick up the pieces.
Actions are so much more difficult than rhetoric. If this carries through then he is deserved of respect for having the intestinal fortitude to do so. ( where others have failed before )




Thankyou Robert. I trully believe there is a way forward, even if we all sit around and cry about the ecomomy

[cowpoos]

even if we all sit around and cry about the ecomomy
No need too...journo's do plenty of that for us!! lol

[gixerracer]

Exactly.

Stock GSXR600s haven't gotten a hell of a lot faster or slower over the last 3 years, and there's plenty of them floating around.

But right now the rules mean that they're not competitive. End of story.

Change the rules, reduce the cost, more guys go racing and the talent floats to the top regardless of whether it can afford to get past a $50K per season starting barrier... everyone except Mr Taylor and 'Mishy' (neither of whom race!) wins.

What a load of crap if the bikes havent improved over the last htree years then they will be more than competitve. I won the 600 class Nationals on a K4-5 gsxr and the times done then would have probly still got top three last season. End of story. I have won a race a long time ago so I hope Im allowed a say:Oops:
Buying a 04-05-60 bike is a great way to do it cheaper, bikes are cheap and the 2nd hand race bits are 30% of there normal retail price and if you are a good enough rider you will be more than competitvie.
I also finishd 2nd in 1997 and I think I was the only bike in the top 10 that had stock suspension sorry robert haha so if you wish to try hard you can compete I also had more crashes that year than any other. Proddie racing a great Idea and im all for it but dont destroy to top classes just because people cant be botherd cleanning there bikes and having a shave and trying to get the funds together to do it right most people dont need the after maerket shit anyway untill you get up to a seriopus speed on what you have[ sorry again bob:yes:

[jrandom]

Proddie racing a great Idea and im all for it but dont destroy to top classes

I don't think anyone wants to destroy the formula classes. Just an opportunity to go racing on stock bikes against other guys on stock bikes.

By the way, if yours was the only bike in the top ten with stock suspension, what does that say to you?

Apart from the fact that you're fast on a motorcycle, of course. :hug:

[gixerracer]

I don't think anyone wants to destroy the formula classes. Just an opportunity to go racing on stock bikes against other guys on stock bikes.

By the way, if yours was the only bike in the top ten with stock suspension, what does that say to you?

Apart from the fact that you're fast on a motorcycle, of course. :hug:

It tells me that about 15 other guys spent at that time 2-3k on suspension and they didnt need it because they were slow and stock would have been ok we did do some work to ours with some different oil and a Maori ride height adjuster, my point is most them guys would have been better off spending that money doing more racing/learning but of coures I was APPARENTLY cheating that year to go that fast[ go figure a] I think had I have had the suspension my results would have been better maybe still get 2nd but i wouldnt have crashed so often and maybe taken the fight a bit closer to Ray Clee who won and deserved so as he was better organised and prepared than me, Thanks Ray I learnt alot from you that year.

[jrandom]

It tells me that about 15 other guys spent at that time 2-3k on suspension and they didnt need it because they were slow and stock would have been ok

True.

Like I said in response to slowpoke in the other thread, I've run out of steam on this subject. You make good points.

I reckon I'll just go race on whatever I can for a while, and come back and whinge some more next summer if I haven't changed my mind.

:doobey:

But, y'know, you're kinda making the point I was getting at - you were basically faster than those guys, but they were spending more money on their machines, and so you were crashing trying to keep up with them and ending up lower in the results than your ability should've put you.

And me personally, I'd rather see the cost barrier taken away and the playing field levelled.

Peace out.

[brads]

What a load of crap if the bikes havent improved over the last htree years then they will be more than competitve. I won the 600 class Nationals on a K4-5 gsxr and the times done then would have probly still got top three last season. End of story. I have won a race a long time ago so I hope Im allowed a say:Oops:
Buying a 04-05-60 bike is a great way to do it cheaper, bikes are cheap and the 2nd hand race bits are 30% of there normal retail price and if you are a good enough rider you will be more than competitvie.
I also finishd 2nd in 1997 and I think I was the only bike in the top 10 that had stock suspension sorry robert haha so if you wish to try hard you can compete I also had more crashes that year than any other. Proddie racing a great Idea and im all for it but dont destroy to top classes just because people cant be botherd cleanning there bikes and having a shave and trying to get the funds together to do it right most people dont need the after maerket shit anyway untill you get up to a seriopus speed on what you have[ sorry again bob:yes:

Up untill the last round I was also on stock springys,then went and got one of those tricky yellow springys,went slightly faster but not enough to hold onto 2nd in the championship,bastard.

[wharfy]

I....different oil and a Maori ride height adjuster...

Is "Maori" a brand name ?
From the context I read it as you implying that things "Maori" are sub standard.

If that is the case I find it offensive and ask that you edit the post and remove it.

If that is not the case please accept my apology and edit the post to make it clear that is not the what you meant.

Thank you.

Kevin Waugh

[Cajun]

Is "Maori" a brand name ?
From the context I read it as you implying that things "Maori" are sub standard.

If that is the case I find it offensive and ask that you edit the post and remove it.

If that is not the case please accept my apology and edit the post to make it clear that is not the what you meant.

Thank you.

Kevin Waugh

I think Craig Sheriffs, is talking about having a kiwi home made custom backyard made part.

[k14]

Is "Maori" a brand name ?
From the context I read it as you implying that things "Maori" are sub standard.

If that is the case I find it offensive and ask that you edit the post and remove it.

If that is not the case please accept my apology and edit the post to make it clear that is not the what you meant.

Thank you.

Kevin Waugh
I think he is referring to it in the context of a cheap, quick home made job. I'd usually refer to it as a rangi job but same thing :laugh:

[wharfy]

I think he is referring to it in the context of a cheap, quick home made job. I'd usually refer to it as a rangi job but same thing :laugh:

If by "rangi" you mean a generic word for a Maori (like "Fido" for a dog) I find that more offensive and not even remotely funny.

[steveyb]

gone fishing

[vtec]

Damn it guys, we aren't a politically correct website and I'm glad, we all know what a Rangi job is I really don't think Wharfy's feelings are hurt (if they are HTFU), I just think that he's getting off on telling people what to do. Sorry Wharfy mate, but pull your head in. Surely you've got bigger fish to fry. Go start a thread trying to get people to stop using the terms "maori job" or "rangi job" if you want. But don't sidetrack this thread with your political views.

Thanks for your input Craig, you're one of the most inspirational riders I've seen mate. You are a cut above.

[wharfy]

Thanks for your input Craig, you're one of the most inspirational riders I've seen mate. You are a cut above.

Yes he is indeed, and I respect his opinion on anything to do with bikes. (I am assuming you are correct that gixerracer=Graig Shirrifs ) and he probably doesn't need you to speak for him.

My feeling are hurt only to the extent that you presume that no KB user would be offended by you using derogatory terms even if "everyone knows" what you mean.

Not subscribing to "political correctness" is an excuse people use to behave badly.

I wasn't telling anyone what to do - I was asking (quite politely I thought) .

[discotex]

My feeling are hurt only to the extent that you presume that no KB user would be offended by you using derogatory terms even if "everyone knows" what you mean.

It's a bloody tall ladder you'll want if you're going to try get on that horse.

Every second post here could offend someone based on gender, race, political views or sexuality.

[steveyb]

gone gone gone

[vtec]

Deleted also.

[Robert Taylor]

If by "rangi" you mean a generic word for a Maori (like "Fido" for a dog) I find that more offensive and not even remotely funny.

( off subject ) Do you find the word Pakeha ( and its literal translation ) offensive also? I do but dont make a song and dance about it. As of the despatch of the Labour party back to where they belong PC nonsense will be ( thankfully ) less valid.

[Robert Taylor]

( On subject ) Shaun has chosen a model ( GSXR600 ) for his proposed race class that needs a whole load less work to it suspension wise than other brands / models to make it work satisfactorily and not too readily screw tyres. The trick will be to run a compound that will give decent grip without being over ''temperature window'' sensitive and therefore pre-disposed to shearing.
If the current sports production rules are largely left well alone ( superstock perhaps, ie , bone stock under the engine bolts ) and such a class as Shauns can ultimately run with it ( privateer cup ? ) then it should keep everyone happy right? The ''technical element'' should not be scared / legislated away from the elite classes.

[Robert Taylor]

Craig, Im terribly mortified that you havent changed your forum name to Exgixxerracer.....

[gixerracer]

Damn it guys, we aren't a politically correct website and I'm glad, we all know what a Rangi job is I really don't think Wharfy's feelings are hurt (if they are HTFU), I just think that he's getting off on telling people what to do. Sorry Wharfy mate, but pull your head in. Same to you SteveyB. Surely you've got bigger fish to fry. Go start a thread trying to get people to stop using the terms "maori job" or "rangi job" if you want. But don't sidetrack this thread with your political views.

Thanks for your input Craig, you're one of the most inspirational riders I've seen mate. You are a cut above.

AH shit chur bro. Whoops Ive done it again.
Please let me explain [Chur] is kiwi slang for I think thank you, [bro] is also kiwi slang for friend,mate etc but i am not 100% so to save any confusion i suggest evryone watches Bro Town i think on tv4:Oops::calm:

[slowpoke]

As much as I'd like to see burgeoning fields of bikes and riders, all closely competing with each other I fear we will be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The riders will come from within the sport rather than without and an extra class will simply thin the ranks of other classes. I'm kinda thinkin' we need a concentration of talent rather than a diversification.

If you wanna race there are already cheap(er) options available, and if you think that stepping onto a competitive machine makes you instantly competitive then to use those immortal words; "Tell 'im he's dreamin', darl'!".

But, if somehow we can get some decent promotion and it means a good show for fans and sponsors alike then it could be a great thing.

[jrandom]

( off subject ) Do you find the word Pakeha ( and its literal translation ) offensive also?

The 'literal translation' is an urban myth. 'Pakeha' is just a word that means white boy, au. No more no less.

And Wharfy's being a very silly man.

[sidecar bob]

If by "rangi" you mean a generic word for a Maori (like "Fido" for a dog) I find that more offensive and not even remotely funny.

Bro. . .This is Kiwi Biker, You must have been trying to log on to Iwi Biker & accidentaly hit the "K" by mistake, its right next to the "I" so i can see how it must have happened.

[wharfy]

( off subject ) Do you find the word Pakeha ( and its literal translation ) offensive also? I do but dont make a song and dance about it. As of the despatch of the Labour party back to where they belong PC nonsense will be ( thankfully ) less valid.

No and neither should you, if you have a few minutes to spare read this.

http://maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm

[Robert Taylor]

Bro. . .This is Kiwi Biker, You must have been trying to log on to Iwi Biker & accidentaly hit the "K" by mistake, its right next to the "I" so i can see how it must have happened.

Now thats funny! Some will say racist but Im giggling, well done!

Used to be atime when we could joke like that and not be frowned upon by the pc police. Im very happy that our new pm has included the Maori party in the Government. Pita Sharples and Tariana are very good people, they are New Zealanders.

Sorry, off subject again.

[FROSTY]

It tells me that about 15 other guys spent at that time 2-3k on suspension and they didnt need it because they were slow and stock would have been ok we did do some work to ours with some different oil and a Maori ride height adjuster, my point is most them guys would have been better off spending that money doing more racing/learning but of coures I was APPARENTLY cheating that year to go that fast[ go figure a] I think had I have had the suspension my results would have been better maybe still get 2nd but i wouldnt have crashed so often and maybe taken the fight a bit closer to Ray Clee who won and deserved so as he was better organised and prepared than me, Thanks Ray I learnt alot from you that year.
So in a nutshell--time on bike rather than money on shocks or other fancy trappings
Hmm some other guy's been preaching that one for awhile--:whistle:

[Robert Taylor]

The 'literal translation' is an urban myth. 'Pakeha' is just a word that means white boy, au. No more no less.

And Wharfy's being a very silly man.

Thats interesting, thanks. Why is white boy generally not regarded as offensive and racist when black boy is so often regarded so?

Interesting to note that leading Dutch suspension supplier White Power largely now prefers that its trading name is an abbreviation to WP. Probably got the KKK to thank for that, although they have moved into Formula 1, where 20 white guys are chasing one black guy around!

Anyone care to build and market ''BP'' suspension?

Hey Shaun do you still have that ''Ohsh.t'' t shirt, plagiarising the Ohlins name in the same font type?

Funny old world! Especially when we cant laugh at ourselves.

[sAsLEX]

No and neither should you, if you have a few minutes to spare read this.

http://maorinews.com/writings/papers/other/pakeha.htm

Oh so calling someone a Nigger is sweet since that words etymology shows that it is from the Latin adjective Niger meaning Black.......

[Robert Taylor]

So in a nutshell--time on bike rather than money on shocks or other fancy trappings
Hmm some other guy's been preaching that one for awhile--:whistle:

Interesting though how squat control and hookup improved dramatically once the stock ''gap fillers'' were removed on Craigs CBR1000RR and replaced with high qulaity RACE SPECIFIC suspenders. I.e, remove the road bike suspension and fit PROPER race bike suspension because its being ridden on a RACETRACK.Lap times and tyre life improved.
Perhaps all world racing bodies should be informed of the error of their ways and leading suspension suppliers should be told to close their doors. Its a filthy notion to actually improve something. Sorry to be so cynical Frosty but I have seen a large number of posts that owe more to emotion than good sound technical reasoning. ( thats not decrying good and reasoned posts promoting controlled classes )
I am not against controlled classes, I am also not against classes that allow expression of set up skill. There are people that have the money to buy the good gear, let them spend it in the motorcycle industry also! Money is made to go around. If you trample on the more wealthy people by regulating their expenditure then theyll go and spend it elsewhere, and it wont trickle through. Heck look at how many people left our shores permanently over the last decade because of our stifling regulations.
My suspension company employs 4 people ( used to only be me ) Think about that. Also what I have learnt with my primary Swedish supplier has given me more knowledge that is of benefit in understanding oem suspension. Think about that also. Positives I think.
This argument is not as clear cut as many want to oversimplistically believe. Other people have also fairly alluded to the motorcycle industry not doing enough to promote itself to the general public.

[wharfy]

Oh so calling someone a Nigger is sweet since that words etymology shows that it is from the Latin adjective Niger meaning Black.......

Not really


...No matter what its origins, by the early 1800s, it was firmly established as a derogative name. In the 21st century, it remains a principal term of White racism, regardless of who is using it....

source - http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2420/Nigger_the_word_a_brief_history

[Shaun P]

Interesting though how squat control and hookup improved dramatically once the stock ''gap fillers'' were removed on Craigs CBR1000RR and replaced with high qulaity RACE SPECIFIC suspenders. I.e, remove the road bike suspension and fit PROPER race bike suspension because its being ridden on a RACETRACK.Lap times and tyre life improved.
Perhaps all world racing bodies should be informed of the error of their ways and leading suspension suppliers should be told to close their doors. Its a filthy notion to actually improve something. Sorry to be so cynical Frosty but I have seen a large number of posts that owe more to emotion than good sound technical reasoning. ( thats not decrying good and reasoned posts promoting controlled classes )
I am not against controlled classes, I am also not against classes that allow expression of set up skill. There are people that have the money to buy the good gear, let them spend it in the motorcycle industry also! Money is made to go around. If you trample on the more wealthy people by regulating their expenditure then theyll go and spend it elsewhere, and it wont trickle through. Heck look at how many people left our shores permanently over the last decade because of our stifling regulations.
My suspension company employs 4 people ( used to only be me ) Think about that. Also what I have learnt with my primary Swedish supplier has given me more knowledge that is of benefit in understanding oem suspension. Think about that also. Positives I think.
This argument is not as clear cut as many want to oversimplistically believe. Other people have also fairly alluded to the motorcycle industry not doing enough to promote itself to the general public.

I dont think there is any argument that quality suspension components set up in the correct way is a huge improvement in many ways but I think the common theme is the affordability for the masses that want to race.

My personal opinion for a SUPERSTOCK class is rear shock change, I believe you need 2 shocks anyway keep the stocker setup for the wet and only valving and spring allowed in the front. Wet tyres are a must for racing, and so is setup.
Cant get more cost effective setup options for performance/safety than that. Anything less wont really supply the learning platform for setup.

That would give you a good dry adjustable setting and wet setting for around 2k give or take.

[scracha]

classes just because people cant be botherd cleanning there bikes and having a shave and trying to get the funds

Still ranting on about cleaning and shaving? You got some sponsorship deal with Gillette on the cards or does one of our top street racers have OCD?

[Robert Taylor]

Still ranting on about cleaning and shaving? You got some sponsorship deal with Gillette on the cards or does one of our top street racers have OCD?

While Craigs description was hardly eloquent he does have a point. Those that are the most motivated, best presented etc will help themselves a lot more in attracting help. There are no free lunches.

[Robert Taylor]

I dont think there is any argument that quality suspension components set up in the correct way is a huge improvement in many ways but I think the common theme is the affordability for the masses that want to race.

My personal opinion for a SUPERSTOCK class is rear shock change, I believe you need 2 shocks anyway keep the stocker setup for the wet and only valving and spring allowed in the front. Wet tyres are a must for racing, and so is setup.
Cant get more cost effective setup options for performance/safety than that. Anything less wont really supply the learning platform for setup.

That would give you a good dry adjustable setting and wet setting for around 2k give or take.

This does overlook that many models have serious front end issues, arguably sometimes more in need than the rear, in order of priority. If you have no confidence in the front that is the most serious impediment to going faster and feeling more secure and connected to the track.

[codgyoleracer]

Bro. . .This is Kiwi Biker, You must have been trying to log on to Iwi Biker & accidentaly hit the "K" by mistake, its right next to the "I" so i can see how it must have happened.

:2thumbsup::buggerd::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[svr]

Sorry to be so cynical Frosty but I have seen a large number of posts that owe more to emotion than good sound technical reasoning

If Reason ever trumps Emotion the first thing to end would be motorbike racing.

[Sketchy_Racer]

If Reason ever trumps Emotion the first thing to end would be motorbike racing.

To true mate!

[scracha]

While Craigs description was hardly eloquent he does have a point. Those that are the most motivated, best presented etc will help themselves a lot more in attracting help. There are no free lunches.

My dress sense is pretty dapper anyhoo but I'd best get one of my flunkies (and I mean that in the Scottish sense of the word) to wash the bike then.

You're quite right about the "free lunch" mentality that a lot of racers seem to have though Dr Bob. Along with the basic suspenders setup guide, MNZ should hand out an idiots guide to "how to thank your sponsors properly".

[FROSTY]

Interesting though how squat control and hookup improved dramatically once the stock ''gap fillers'' were removed on Craigs CBR1000RR and replaced with high qulaity RACE SPECIFIC suspenders. I.e, remove the road bike suspension and fit PROPER race bike suspension because its being ridden on a RACETRACK.Lap times and tyre life improved.
Perhaps all world racing bodies should be informed of the error of their ways and leading suspension suppliers should be told to close their doors. Its a filthy notion to actually improve something. Sorry to be so cynical Frosty but I have seen a large number of posts that owe more to emotion than good sound technical reasoning. ( thats not decrying good and reasoned posts promoting controlled classes )
I am not against controlled classes, I am also not against classes that allow expression of set up skill. There are people that have the money to buy the good gear, let them spend it in the motorcycle industry also! Money is made to go around. If you trample on the more wealthy people by regulating their expenditure then theyll go and spend it elsewhere, and it wont trickle through. Heck look at how many people left our shores permanently over the last decade because of our stifling regulations.
My suspension company employs 4 people ( used to only be me ) Think about that. Also what I have learnt with my primary Swedish supplier has given me more knowledge that is of benefit in understanding oem suspension. Think about that also. Positives I think.
This argument is not as clear cut as many want to oversimplistically believe. Other people have also fairly alluded to the motorcycle industry not doing enough to promote itself to the general public.
Sorry Robert you are talking about the guys at the pointy end here.
Theres a bunch of guys I can think of right now that would be going a shit load faster by spending the money on LAPS rather than suspension or engine or whatever. This isn't emotion its simple fact.
There is NO replacement for time on bike.
Being real here -put ME on a bike built by YOU especially for me and that track at that time of year.
Put me on the same bike with well set up factory suspenders but with 5 trackdays under my belt in 5 weeks.
I know for a fact I'll go faster on the factory stuff.
I have NO doubt at all that good suspension improves the bike and therefore laptimes.
I do doubt its a replacement for just doing race laps

[Cleve]

Sorry Robert you are talking about the guys at the pointy end here.
Theres a bunch of guys I can think of right now that would be going a shit load faster by spending the money on LAPS rather than suspension or engine or whatever. This isn't emotion its simple fact.
There is NO replacement for time on bike.
Being real here -put ME on a bike built by YOU especially for me and that track at that time of year.
Put me on the same bike with well set up factory suspenders but with 5 trackdays under my belt in 5 weeks.
I know for a fact I'll go faster on the factory stuff.
I have NO doubt at all that good suspension improves the bike and therefore laptimes.
I do doubt its a replacement for just doing race laps

Hey Frosty. Watch out! Shaun wants you!

[Shaun]

Hey Frosty. Watch out! Shaun wants you!


Haha, just a return phone call would do, I have offered him a bike to race, but he has NOT confirmed with me as yet. Guess I will just sell it then eh

[FROSTY]

OHH SHIT--- I have F@#@#@ my cell phone
Head dowm arse up selling.
Have you been trying to contact me Shaun??

[Shaun]

OHH SHIT--- I have F@#@#@ my cell phone
Head dowm arse up selling.
Have you been trying to contact me Shaun??

well talk tomorrow mate

[Shaun P]

This does overlook that many models have serious front end issues, arguably sometimes more in need than the rear, in order of priority. If you have no confidence in the front that is the most serious impediment to going faster and feeling more secure and connected to the track.

Ok I would agree with that statement, but I guess $5k vs $2k(for example front and rear combined) is a big deal for racers on a budget.(Isnt that what we are talking about?) A stock setup and linear rate spring cartridge vs aftermarket is prob worth about 0-2 seconds a lap depending on the rider.

[sAsLEX]

Not really

Dickens, Twain both rampant racists by your book.



What I am trying to get across is that no matter what you think the word means it is the person that receives it that takes offence. No matter how innocent or factual the statement is.



And on the shaving thing. Not only personal appearance but the bikes appearance and how you approach racing in a professional way, such as a full concise clear and well proof read race CV, is what will make a sponsor look at you twice.

[cowpoos]

-put ME on a bike built by YOU especially for me and that track at that time of year.
Put me on the same bike with well set up factory suspenders but with 5 trackdays under my belt in 5 weeks.
I know for a fact I'll go faster on the factory stuff.

Nah...I picked neither...You'd be on the side of pit lane talking to anyone who will listen...about how fast you are!!!! :beer:

[Robert Taylor]

Sorry Robert you are talking about the guys at the pointy end here.
Theres a bunch of guys I can think of right now that would be going a shit load faster by spending the money on LAPS rather than suspension or engine or whatever. This isn't emotion its simple fact.
There is NO replacement for time on bike.
Being real here -put ME on a bike built by YOU especially for me and that track at that time of year.
Put me on the same bike with well set up factory suspenders but with 5 trackdays under my belt in 5 weeks.
I know for a fact I'll go faster on the factory stuff.
I have NO doubt at all that good suspension improves the bike and therefore laptimes.
I do doubt its a replacement for just doing race laps

The point you miss is that especially given time on a bike you notice its shortcomings. So why do aftermarket suppliers of high performance suspension exist?

[jrandom]

You got some sponsorship deal with Gillette on the cards or does one of our top street racers have OCD?

Fuck me, I never realised. Mr Shiriffs has enlightened us; it's the beard that makes me slow.

I shall shave it off forthwith. Podiums await!

[Cleve]

Fuck me, I never realised. Mr Shiriffs has enlightened us; it's the beard that makes me slow.

I shall shave it off forthwith. Podiums await!

Then big money sponsorship :2thumbsup and then you won't have to worry about dumbing every one down to the same low level of equipment because you are too poor and want to race on cheap stuff...:argh:

[sAsLEX]

It's the beard that makes me slow.


<img src=http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y253/washingtonriders/biaggi_kleenex.jpg>


Someone should of told Max.

[Kickaha]

Someone should of told Max.

The kleenex sponsorship must be so he can wipe all his dribble about not having the best gear up

[FROSTY]

Nah...I picked neither...You'd be on the side of pit lane talking to anyone who will listen...about how fast you are!!!! :beer:
When have I EVER said I was fast? I'm as slow as a wet week. Its just that on a few occasions other people have been slower.

Oh and Robert has already hinted at this one Even if you are tecnically limited to "factory" suspension If the bikes arent held as Shaun is suggesting then some riders will be on er better factory setups than others. The old brown paper bag in the back door of the suspension guru's trick.
I saw it happen with certain "production" classes back in the late 80's early 90's --Hmm whats that nipple on the side of your factory RGV shock??

[wharfy]

Dickens, Twain both rampant racists by your book.

Yes - (I don't know how rampant they were and they were products of there time, and Twain WAS a reasonably well off white man in the US south) I still admire the writing of both and Dickens did have a social conscience.


What I am trying to get across is that no matter what you think the word means it is the person that receives it that takes offence. No matter how innocent or factual the statement is.

exactly !! - I am 54 years old I was born in Huntly and spent my school years there. I have heard the expression "Maori job" used hundreds of times - and ALWAYS to indicate an inferior job.
What I was trying to get across was that "I" found it offensive and suspect that most of the 650,000 people in NZ that identify as Maori would too.



And on the shaving thing. Not only personal appearance but the bikes appearance and how you approach racing in a professional way, such as a full concise clear and well proof read race CV, is what will make a sponsor look at you twice.

And also how you conduct yourself in public, how many sponsorship dollars would Rossi loose if he bandied about the word "nigger" ?

Just in case you think I have no sense of humour -
Here is a racist joke:

"How does every racist joke start ? With a look over your shoulder "

Cheers bro.

[jrandom]

"How does every racist joke start ? With a look over your shoulder "

That's only 'cos everyone knows darkies are violent.

:lol:

[Toast]

Sorry Robert you are talking about the guys at the pointy end here.
Theres a bunch of guys I can think of right now that would be going a shit load faster by spending the money on LAPS rather than suspension or engine or whatever. This isn't emotion its simple fact.
There is NO replacement for time on bike.
Being real here -put ME on a bike built by YOU especially for me and that track at that time of year.
Put me on the same bike with well set up factory suspenders but with 5 trackdays under my belt in 5 weeks.
I know for a fact I'll go faster on the factory stuff.
I have NO doubt at all that good suspension improves the bike and therefore laptimes.
I do doubt its a replacement for just doing race laps

I guess everyone's experience is different...

I as an average joe bought a race bike that handled like a chopper and struggled with it

Everytime I sought help from experts on the handling side, things improved and I enjoyed it more...

Shaun helps me set up what it's already got...-3 seconds at Taupo, straight away

Rear shock sprung and valved for my weight per RT's specs...-1 second at Puke, straight away (and -4 seconds at Manfeild a year later with no practice on that track). Not to mention tyre life duobled

Robert puts Racetech stuff in the front end...-1.5 seconds at Taupo, straight away

Not saying that money buys performance, but I was hitting brick walls on a bitsa bike, and help from these kind of people to set a bike up sure teaches you what you should be aiming for and how to get the most out of a machine.

You need to balance rider improvement with machine improvement, and for those of us that don't know shit, that means spending money with someone else to help out at the expense of track time.

[Shaun]

I guess everyone's experience is different...

I as an average joe bought a race bike that handled like a chopper and struggled with it

Everytime I sought help from experts on the handling side, things improved and I enjoyed it more...

Shaun helps me set up what it's already got...-3 seconds at Taupo, straight away

Rear shock sprung and valved for my weight per RT's specs...-1 second at Puke, straight away (and -4 seconds at Manfeild a year later with no practice on that track). Not to mention tyre life duobled

Robert puts Racetech stuff in the front end...-1.5 seconds at Taupo, straight away

Not saying that money buys performance, but I was hitting brick walls on a bitsa bike, and help from these kind of people to set a bike up sure teaches you what you should be aiming for and how to get the most out of a machine.

You need to balance rider improvement with machine improvement, and for those of us that don't know shit, that means spending money with someone else to help out at the expense of track time.


Thanks for the compliment dude. You have descibed what Devoloping a bike and team/Rider is all about, and the best to way to get that done:beer:

You know I know you know that others know that what Robert and Serious suspension companies, ie ohlin's etc etc Know is better than Standard Simple Fact.

But Skids are Skds, Yee Haa:whistle:

[wbks]

Whats SRAD?
edit: sorry, must have been looking at an earlyer page

[Tony.OK]

But Skids are Skids, Yee Haa:whistle:

Now that is possibly the best answer I've seen for racing on anything you can get your hands on....................Onyer Shaun:Punk:

[slowpoke]

But Skids are Skds, Yee Haa:whistle:


Now that is possibly the best answer I've seen for racing on anything you can get your hands on....................Onyer Shaun:Punk:

Yup, any skids are better than no skids.

[wharfy]

Yup, any skids are better than no skids.

But you don't want to go "A skid too far.."

[sosman]

Whats SRAD?
edit: sorry, must have been looking at an earlyer page

Slow Reaming Anal Detector?

[Sketchy_Racer]

Whats SRAD?
edit: sorry, must have been looking at an earlyer page


Suzuki Ram Air Direct or some shit like that.

[HDTboy]

SRAD. What's that got to do with the price of fish though?

[Scoot_6R]

Hey Guys,

I'm not wanting to enter into the little lovers tiff that's goin' on here:lol:, but I am curious if anyone knows of any other "production" racing series that's currently running anywhere in the world right now???...... Street Stock 150's about the only class I can think of.... Maybe CBR150 in Oz??

It's a good concept. SS150 has done wonders for the racing scene in NZ.


UK has R1 cup used to have R6 cup, RC8 Cup used to have superduke cup, Now has Harley XR1200 cup all at national level running alongside superbike. They also have over here CB500 cup and lots more at thundersport meetings.

[Shaun]

Hi, Cannot make any anouncement about this class as I said a few days ago, there a couple of issues to be soughted out as yet, "IT IS ALL CLOSE"

Please clip and post Push Move this if I have not got it where it should /needs to be anyone

[Scoot_6R]

Do they not have the Red Bull Rookies Cup? Is this not a ONE MAKE series to see what youngster can actually ride better than the next? Didn't James Toseland come from something like the Honda GB500 Cup or something? Don't the Poms have an R6 cup...then move the winner of that onto a Superbike?

.

The Poms did have an R6 Cup that has now been replaced by the R1 cup which has now been scraped. The winner of th R6 cup didn't get anything after they won no free entries or nothing it just attracted better teams to him. Look up last years winner and see what he is doing now!! I now live in the UK and am very good mates with Nick Morgan at MSS Kawasaki the Official UK works team. Mention NZ riders over here all you get is Stroud, Slight and Haldane.

I think all you people moaning about costs and wanting to ride your old shitters on the track and race them is riduculous. It's people like you taking up the sponsors and entries from younger riders. If you want to go out on track on your stock bike by all means do it. But there is a time and a place for it. TRACK DAYS!!!

[Scoot_6R]

Way to go mate!!!

And do you mean 'Jay' that raced the Museum Hotel ZX6? I could be outta line here...but I think if that's the 'Jay'...he had all sorts of problems with handling 'issues'. Does anyone know if his (if that's the 'J' in question) ZX6 was running stock suspension??? Bet it wasn't.

Have you tried to set one of those bikes up?? NO you haven't. They struggled with it in WSS. MSS Kawasaki had huge troubles trying to get their SSP 600 to behave. Everyone around the world was in the same boat. It was just one of those bikes.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think all you people moaning about costs and wanting to ride your old shitters on the track and race them is riduculous. It's people like you taking up the sponsors and entries from younger riders. If you want to go out on track on your stock bike by all means do it. But there is a time and a place for it. TRACK DAYS!!!

People like me eh? Track days you say? Shit...maybe you could give me some 'race coaching'???

[Robert Taylor]

Have you tried to set one of those bikes up?? NO you haven't. They struggled with it in WSS. MSS Kawasaki had huge troubles trying to get their SSP 600 to behave. Everyone around the world was in the same boat. It was just one of those bikes.

Come the Nationals that bike was working well and he placed 3rd overall. Yes it was difficult to set up.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I now live in the UK and am very good mates with Nick Morgan at MSS Kawasaki the Official UK works team. Mention NZ riders over here all you get is Stroud, Slight and Haldane.


Hey I'm impressed you know people like that...wish I did. But if you're such an expert on all things racing...don't you find it odd that Stroud, Slight and Haldane all made names for themselves and first got noticed racing PRODUCTION BIKES???

Tool.

[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Scoot_6R
I now live in the UK and am very good mates with Nick Morgan at MSS Kawasaki the Official UK works team. Mention NZ riders over here all you get is Stroud, Slight and Haldane.


lucky you mate, officual UK works team my BUT! They are more private than my wifes undies, and Yes, I to know nick very well

[puddytat]

I think all you people moaning about costs and wanting to ride your old shitters on the track and race them is riduculous. It's people like you taking up the sponsors and entries from younger riders. If you want to go out on track on your stock bike by all means do it. But there is a time and a place for it. TRACK DAYS!!!

Hey , fuck you bro !! Not all of us are fortuanate enough to have the "right" school tie or born with a silver spoon up our arse....my advice is pull youre one out & take a good long suck.....

[Crasherfromwayback]

Have you tried to set one of those bikes up?? NO you haven't. They struggled with it in WSS. MSS Kawasaki had huge troubles trying to get their SSP 600 to behave. Everyone around the world was in the same boat. It was just one of those bikes.

How do you know what I've ridden and raced over the years I've been doing it?Do you know? Of course not.


Hey , fuck you bro !! Not all of us are fortuanate enough to have the "right" school tie or born with a silver spoon up our arse....my advice is pull youre one out & take a good long suck.....

With you there mate!

[wharfy]

I think all you people moaning about costs and wanting to ride your old shitters on the track and race them is riduculous. It's people like you taking up the sponsors and entries from younger riders. If you want to go out on track on your stock bike by all means do it. But there is a time and a place for it. TRACK DAYS!!!

Nobody wants to ride "shitters" we are talking about production racing and in this particular thread one-make production racing - with two aims leveling the playing field as much as possible and holding down costs. Hopefully the outcome will be more people racing, a more competitive environment and those with talent being identified and possibly groomed for bigger things. I don't think the aims or the proposed method (debated here as not everyone agrees :) ) are ridiculous.

[Robert Taylor]

Hey , fuck you bro !! Not all of us are fortuanate enough to have the "right" school tie or born with a silver spoon up our arse....my advice is pull youre one out & take a good long suck.....

Actually you are both out of order. And how about the people who have a silver spoon in their mouth and have earnt it.

[FROSTY]

And how about the people who have a silver spoon in their mouth and have earnt it.
Theres no such person. To have a silver spoon by implication is a person born into wealth not a person who has created wealth themselves

[jrandom]

am very good mates with... Official UK works team... It's people like you...

You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown.

[Crasherfromwayback]

You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown.

Nah...he's not only cool...but he's 'in the know' mate! Pretty clever too. Know's all about me and what I've ridden, and what I haven't done. I hope to be just like him one day. Probably will be...when I get to 90 and sit there dribbling and pissing my pants.

[crazy blanket]

Nobody wants to ride "shitters" we are talking about production racing and in this particular thread one-make production racing - with two aims leveling the playing field as much as possible and holding down costs. Hopefully the outcome will be more people racing, a more competitive environment and those with talent being identified and possibly groomed for bigger things. I don't think the aims or the proposed method (debated here as not everyone agrees :) ) are ridiculous.

Well said Wharfy...the proverbial head of the nail has finally met the hammer :clap:......

and by the way Scoot...what was your point...I think I missed it?

[sidecar bob]

SRAD. What's that got to do with the price of fish though?

I think the calculation is that one slightly tatty SRAD is worth about the same as a year worth of fish & chips, although if you didnt want the chips it would be more like 18 months worth of fish, which would be more accurate, seeing it was about the price of fish, not fish & chips.

[Scoot_6R]

Originally Posted by Scoot_6R
I now live in the UK and am very good mates with Nick Morgan at MSS Kawasaki the Official UK works team. Mention NZ riders over here all you get is Stroud, Slight and Haldane.


lucky you mate, officual UK works team my BUT! They are more private than my wifes undies, and Yes, I to know nick very well

I know you do dude. They have just made a big announcement today. We had MCN at work taking pics. Watch this space is all I can say.

[Scoot_6R]

How do you know what I've ridden and raced over the years I've been doing it?Do you know? Of course not.



With you there mate!

Your 100% right I don't know what you have ridden. One thing I do know is that you haven't ridden a 07 ZX6R otherwise you would know what I am on about. Robert and Mishy worked really hard to get that bike right and I take my hat off to both of them.

[Shaun]

I know you do dude. They have just made a big announcement today. We had MCN at work taking pics. Watch this space is all I can say.

sweet as, MCN, poor munt! The worst piece of written trash in the world:Punk:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Your 100% right I don't know what you have ridden. One thing I do know is that you haven't ridden a 07 ZX6R otherwise you would know what I am on about. Robert and Mishy worked really hard to get that bike right and I take my hat off to both of them.

Then it's probably best you keep your ill informed posts to yourself till you do what what you're talking about. Yes I've ridden an '07' ZX6R. Haven't raced one. Not many bikes I haven't ridden in my 21 years in the bike industry either.

I'm still laughing at your 'people like you...and 'track days' post too mate.

Once again...you know fuck all.

[Scoot_6R]

Then it's probably best you keep your ill informed posts to yourself till you do what what you're talking about. Yes I've ridden an '07' ZX6R. Haven't raced one. Not many bikes I haven't ridden in my 21 years in the bike industry either.

I'm still laughing at your 'people like you...and 'track days' post too mate.

Once again...you know fuck all.

I think I'll be the judge of that!! I'm glad to have entertained you. Really is there a need for the expletives on a forum.

But seriously if we want more top NZ riders to succeed we need to give them experience on good equipment ie invest some money which a lot of you seem to be against.

[jrandom]

Really is there a need for the expletives

I just had the super-est idea ever.

You should come along to a race meet, barge into some conversations and talk your shit to a few guys about how they don't know what they're on about, and then try asking them if there's 'really a need for expletives' when they respond.

Seriously.

I would pay money to watch that.

:laugh:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think I'll be the judge of that!! I'm glad to have entertained you. Really is there a need for the expletives on a forum.

But seriously if we want more top NZ riders to succeed we need to give them experience on good equipment ie invest some money which a lot of you seem to be against.

You might as well be mate. After all...you 'judged' me and said it was people like me that are the problem...or some such shit. Then you judged that me and the pieces of crap I'd like to see raced belong at "Track days".

My answer to you was (originally)...how come if you're so clever...? You didn't answer the question mate!? So go back...have a look at the questions I asked you about 'Production racing' (because that IS what this is all about right?).

Because if you knew ANYTHING about NZ road racing...you'd know that most of the truly successful road racers we've produced came through the ranks of PRODUCTION RACING.

The Poms might even jog your memory a bit for you if you ask your famous mates. They may've been at Donington when Simon Crafar (ex 250 proddie) beat a certain Mick Doohan by 11 seconds.

Doubt Simon would tell you they only belong at 'track days'.

Dork.

[Robert Taylor]

You might as well be mate. After all...you 'judged' me and said it was people like me that are the problem...or some such shit. Then you judged that me and the pieces of crap I'd like to see raced belong at "Track days".

My answer to you was (originally)...how come if you're so clever...? You didn't answer the question mate!? So go back...have a look at the questions I asked you about 'Production racing' (because that IS what this is all about right?).

Because if you knew ANYTHING about NZ road racing...you'd know that most of the truly successful road racers we've produced came through the ranks of PRODUCTION RACING.

The Poms might even jog your memory a bit for you if you ask your famous mates. They may've been at Donington when Simon Crafar (ex 250 proddie) beat a certain Mick Doohan by 11 seconds.

Doubt Simon would tell you they only belong at 'track days'.

Dork.

I dont buy the assertion that they became successful overseas largely because they came through the ranks of production racing. That in itself is misleading.
Andrew Stroud ( aside from his obvious talents ) had a very kind benefactor at that time ( Shanton ) and rides were arranged with Super Angel in Japan. Simon happened to be around and tagged along on one occassion as a reserve rider and got his chance to prove himself, being in the right place at the right time. My point, other forces at work.
I do though concede that if such a series gets up and running and gets ''bums on seats'' then there is more chance of riders going onto bigger things, weight of numbers as it were.

[svr]

I do though concede that if such a series gets up and running and gets ''bums on seats'' then there is more chance of riders going onto bigger things, weight of numbers as it were.

And now we can all get some sleep.

[Shaun P]

I think I'll be the judge of that!! I'm glad to have entertained you. Really is there a need for the expletives on a forum.

.

Fuckin aye why not this is not a kids program

[R6_kid]

Just read in the October SuperBikes Magazine that there is a similar setup to this running in the UK at the moment - on GSXR600k8's. Looked to be doing very well. All the best Shaun, unfortunately i'm not in position to take up on the offer you're putting forward.

[k14]

Just read in the October SuperBikes Magazine that there is a similar setup to this running in the UK at the moment - on GSXR600k8's. Looked to be doing very well. All the best Shaun, unfortunately i'm not in position to take up on the offer you're putting forward.
Apart from the fact that the bikes are nz supersport spec and they cost 12k pounds a season for a ride!

[Crasherfromwayback]

And now we can all get some sleep.

We hope...

[boomer]

You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown.


and what the fuck would you know? You've entered one clubmans meet and now you're a full blow racer with years of experience...!

lmfao. :tugger:

and as for being so full of shit.. your clothes wibble wobble when you move... is that fat or shit?

[jrandom]

and what the fuck would you know? You've entered one clubmans meet and now you're a full blow racer with years of experience...!

But I'm still not wrong hey...

:msn-wink:

[boomer]

But I'm still not wrong hey...

:msn-wink:

of course you're not.. bitch's never are .. hey !

;)

[jrandom]

of course you're not...

You're a sweetheart.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Get a room!

[boomer]

Get a room!

ok.. can we get 2 for 1... you'll be needing one huh Pete?

[CHOPPA]

You might as well be mate. After all...you 'judged' me and said it was people like me that are the problem...or some such shit. Then you judged that me and the pieces of crap I'd like to see raced belong at "Track days".

My answer to you was (originally)...how come if you're so clever...? You didn't answer the question mate!? So go back...have a look at the questions I asked you about 'Production racing' (because that IS what this is all about right?).

Because if you knew ANYTHING about NZ road racing...you'd know that most of the truly successful road racers we've produced came through the ranks of PRODUCTION RACING.

The Poms might even jog your memory a bit for you if you ask your famous mates. They may've been at Donington when Simon Crafar (ex 250 proddie) beat a certain Mick Doohan by 11 seconds.

Doubt Simon would tell you they only belong at 'track days'.

Dork.


Wouldnt our production superbike and sport production classes all be classed as proddie racing?? There all production bikes with a few mods, most the mods on the bikes are mods you see on any road riders bikes...

[Crasherfromwayback]

Wouldnt our production superbike and sport production classes all be classed as proddie racing?? There all production bikes with a few mods, most the mods on the bikes are mods you see on any road riders bikes...

To a certain extent...sure! But at the same time..they're both out of reach finacially for a lot of people that may well have a huge amount of talent.

I have no problem with those classes whatsoever...in fact...we need them.

[Robert Taylor]

And now we can all get some sleep.

And your point is?

[jrandom]

And your point is?

That you finally gave in and admitted that 'production' racing might just be a good idea.

:msn-wink:

[Mishy]

Have you tried to set one of those bikes up?? NO you haven't. They struggled with it in WSS. MSS Kawasaki had huge troubles trying to get their SSP 600 to behave. Everyone around the world was in the same boat. It was just one of those bikes.

Interesting you should say that, and you would have had a pretty good look at Jay's bke last year too ( if I remember correctly) :)

[Robert Taylor]

That you finally gave in and admitted that 'production' racing might just be a good idea.

:msn-wink:

Not as a wholesale replacement no. As a feeder class that puts bums on seats yes, but personally I dont think it should be a one make / model class ( sorry Shaun )
And its not surprising to see so much emotive tall poppy syndrome with terms such as ''rich pricks'' etc. Maybe a lot of those so called ''rich pricks'' worked really hard to become same. That is the sort of slagging / bleating mentality that really disturbs me. Especially when ''rich pricks'' help to fund other peoples racing, they should be welcomed, not despised.

[jrandom]

Not as a wholesale replacement no. As a feeder class that puts bums on seats yes, but personally I dont think it should be a one make / model class ( sorry Shaun )

I agree with you on both those points.


And its not surprising to see so much emotive tall poppy syndrome with terms such as ''rich pricks'' etc.

Yes, I don't like hearing those words used, either.

I personally have no emotional issues around the subject, and the fact is, I myself probably could run a competitive machine under the current formula rules if I decided it was a priority for me. If I decided it was a priority.

But I would actually prefer to race a stock machine against other stock machines. Limited setup twiddling, limited power tuning, just motorcycles and riders, and the riders who really shine get to consider moving to the classes that involve more dedication and funding, while the others get a straightforward chance at participating in the best fun you can have with your pants on.

Because, in the end, isn't that what it's all about?

[Ocean1]

Because, in the end, isn't that what it's all about?

No. It's about who's a clever bastard wot can tweak the bejeezuz out of his bike AND herd it around the track better than everyone else. HIS bike.


Or it orta be.

[puddytat]

But I would actually prefer to race a stock machine against other stock machines. Limited setup twiddling, limited power tuning, just motorcycles and riders, and the riders who really shine get to consider moving to the classes that involve more dedication and funding, while the others get a straightforward chance at participating in the best fun you can have with your pants on.

Because, in the end, isn't that what it's all about?

Yup....'cause you can actually race that bike that was (& maybe still is) your roadbike.
They're thinkin' 6 hundies in the Moto GP circus...MMMMMmmmm what are the proddies going to be like in a few years

[jrandom]

No. It's about who's a clever bastard wot can tweak the bejeezuz out of his bike AND herd it around the track better than everyone else. HIS bike.

Meh. Nobody tweaks the bejeezuz out of their own bikes these days. They give them to the appropriate professional and say "more power, please" or "better suspension, please", and shell out plenty of cash in the process.

I mean, fuxache, we're most of us computer programmers or accountants or truckies or electricians or Mr Whippy drivers or whatever... how the hell are we supposed to have time to learn about bike spannering and get it all right before racing starts? We don't. We pay the guys who know what they're doing to get our machines working the way they need to so that we can go play on them.

Will you next suggest that we design and build our own bikes from scratch, a la John Britten (who didn't, of course, do anything of the sort, but rather used his significant family fortune to pay a bunch of engineers to make a bike work for him)?

[Ocean1]

Will you next suggest that we design and build our own bikes from scratch ?

Yes. At the very least it should be worth bonus points.

And if you can't at least handle the mech basics you've got no right being there, clear the grid for a real racer.

[jrandom]

And if you can't at least handle the mech basics you've got no right being there, clear the grid for a real racer.

Them's fightin' words!

[Ocean1]

Them's fightin' words!

Doner bike of your choice, $2k budget, zero restrictions, three months, bucket track of your choice. :yes:

Love to oblige, but I don't have the time.

A completely open class is the only type of comp motorsport I'd have any chance of being vaguely competitive in.

[jrandom]

Doner bike of your choice, $2k budget, zero restrictions, three months, bucket track of your choice. :yes:

That actually sounds like huge fun.

But... restricting the amount of money you can spend is kinda the antithesis of an open class, isn't it?

[Ocean1]

But... restricting the amount of money you can spend is kinda the antithesis of an open class, isn't it?

Yeah, it's a problem, how to prevent the inevitable "chequebook racing”. Exactly the type of approach that eventually kills an open class.

I was already planning on ignoring the “donor bike” qualification on the basis of the “no restrictions” thing. You'd have turned up with the agreed CB400, (or whatever) and I'd be there with an R6 cobbled together from wrecks. :cool:

How to allow, even encourage innovation without opening the professional cash floodgates…

[ArcherWC]

Wouldnt our production superbike and sport production classes all be classed as proddie racing?? There all production bikes with a few mods, most the mods on the bikes are mods you see on any road riders bikes...


The Major engine mods in superbike go beyond that.

I still firmly believe that Superbike should more closely follow supersport in this respect

[Scoot_6R]

Interesting you should say that, and you would have had a pretty good look at Jay's bke last year too ( if I remember correctly) :)

I sure did. We struggled a bit this year in British Superstock600 just lucky we had a lot of outside help. The Yamaha's are definately the bike to beat at the moment. But we shall see what the new models bring.:Punk:

[Scoot_6R]

You might as well be mate. After all...you 'judged' me and said it was people like me that are the problem...or some such shit. Then you judged that me and the pieces of crap I'd like to see raced belong at "Track days".

My answer to you was (originally)...how come if you're so clever...? You didn't answer the question mate!? So go back...have a look at the questions I asked you about 'Production racing' (because that IS what this is all about right?).

Because if you knew ANYTHING about NZ road racing...you'd know that most of the truly successful road racers we've produced came through the ranks of PRODUCTION RACING.

The Poms might even jog your memory a bit for you if you ask your famous mates. They may've been at Donington when Simon Crafar (ex 250 proddie) beat a certain Mick Doohan by 11 seconds.

Doubt Simon would tell you they only belong at 'track days'.

Dork.


I think you need to get out more. Howcome if your the be all and end all of all things racing I have never heard of you?? Also if your that good you should enter the series and win easily. I'm all for the production series don't get me wrong I think it is an awesome idea and I wish Shaun all the best with it. Hopefully it will get people off their old ZXR400's and CBR400's and get them onto modern machines to gain some experience of how to setup a bike with modern technology.

I hear people all day long spin on about how they ride hard and that I need my bike to do this and to do that. When really they only ride on the bumpy and slippery UK roads and do a couple of track days here and there. You sound just like them to me :yawn::zzzz:

[jrandom]

Gosh. Where is the love? Can't we all just be nice to each other?

Oh, the humanity.

:weep:

[Crasherfromwayback]

I think you need to get out more. Howcome if your the be all and end all of all things racing I have never heard of you?? Also if your that good you should enter the series and win easily.

I hear people all day long spin on about how they ride hard and that I need my bike to do this and to do that. When really they only ride on the bumpy and slippery UK roads and do a couple of track days here and there. You sound just like them to me :yawn::zzzz:

Really? You've probably never heard of me because I don't claim to be a 'somebody'...and when I was road racing...you were probably still sucking your mums tit. But I will tell you this much...I used to get around a race track alright. Still can. No track days required.

[Robert Taylor]

Meh. Nobody tweaks the bejeezuz out of their own bikes these days. They give them to the appropriate professional and say "more power, please" or "better suspension, please", and shell out plenty of cash in the process.

I mean, fuxache, we're most of us computer programmers or accountants or truckies or electricians or Mr Whippy drivers or whatever... how the hell are we supposed to have time to learn about bike spannering and get it all right before racing starts? We don't. We pay the guys who know what they're doing to get our machines working the way they need to so that we can go play on them.

Will you next suggest that we design and build our own bikes from scratch, a la John Britten (who didn't, of course, do anything of the sort, but rather used his significant family fortune to pay a bunch of engineers to make a bike work for him)?
No, if you want simplicity, fine. That can be and already is catered for, to some degree. But road racing also is very much about optimising machine setup track to track, and like most sports it has become more complex. ( As has the world in general )This is an accepted norm in first world countries around the world. There is a place for complexity and for many of us that is an ageeable challenge.
Road racing is not only about the riders!

[Robert Taylor]

Gosh. Where is the love? Can't we all just be nice to each other?

Oh, the humanity.

:weep:

I agree, its possible to disagree and to have some common decency and manners at the same time.

[wharfy]

I agree, its possible to disagree and to have some common decency and manners at the same time.

That would be nice, and possibly improve the signal to noise ratio......

[roogazza]

Had a rethink and delete on this. G.

[Shaun]

I sure did. We struggled a bit this year in British Superstock600 just lucky we had a lot of outside help. The Yamaha's are definately the bike to beat at the moment. But we shall see what the new models bring.:Punk:



so why did the TRIUMPH win then?

[Scoot_6R]

so why did the TRIUMPH win then?

That was Supersport not Superstock which my team was in. Good old Glen cleaned up in Supersport he was awesome to watch. He's got a good ride next year on a superbike for HM Plant with Josh Brookes

[Scoot_6R]

Really? You've probably never heard of me because I don't claim to be a 'somebody'...and when I was road racing...you were probably still sucking your mums tit. But I will tell you this much...I used to get around a race track alright. Still can. No track days required.

My point exactly :yawn: :zzzz:

[Crasherfromwayback]

My point exactly :yawn: :zzzz:

Yep...thought it was past your bed time.

[slowpoke]

But I would actually prefer to race a stock machine against other stock machines. Limited setup twiddling, limited power tuning, just motorcycles and riders, and the riders who really shine get to consider moving to the classes that involve more dedication and funding, while the others get a straightforward chance at participating in the best fun you can have with your pants on.


Pro twin fulfills those requirements. Cheaper than limited development 6 hundies or thou's too.


No. It's about who's a clever bastard wot can tweak the bejeezuz out of his bike AND herd it around the track better than everyone else. HIS bike.


Or it orta be.

That's why it's the best team that usually wins, not just the fastest bike or best rider. Just ask Kenny Roberts Jnr, or Jerry Burgess.


And if you can't at least handle the mech basics you've got no right being there, clear the grid for a real racer.

Dunno about that. D'ya reckon casey Stoner knows much about building a Ducati D16? Todays competition is all about specialised knowledge with specialists knowing all there is to know about their particular sphere of interest and feck all about anything else.

It's along time since World Championship riders got their hands dirty. With 16-17 year olds riding 125GP bikes in World Championships there's precious little time for learning the spannering side of things other than as an interested observer.

On the local stage it's a little different, by necessity rather than choice. But rebuilding an old Gold Star BSA, GS1000 or even an RGV250 is a bit different to rebuilding an R6. For example I had the cams reground on my old R1 and with hard-facing (which has to be ground off, cams reprofiled, then reapplied) along with 20 valves (8 of which were Titanium, how do you do a 3 or 5 angle valve job on those fuckers? Ti work hardens...) involved this is not a job for the faint hearted. Then there is the "you get what you pay for argument". With over $2000 just for the valves on the R1 (valve recession problem) I wouldn't be too keen on risking a backyard job and catastrophic failure at 270km/hr. Ya get what ya pay for unless you can guarantee a good job by doing it yourself which is increasingly difficult to do.



A completely open class is the only type of comp motorsport I'd have any chance of being vaguely competitive in.

F3 is pretty open for some "outside the box" thinking. Unfortunately we don't see that much of it.

In general times have changed and we demand excellence rather than the "have a go" attitude of old. "Jack of all trades master of none" just isn't good enough. Raising the needles in your carbs, and slipping a few coins in the fork legs before giving it a squirt up the road was standard practice, compared now to replacing the shim stack in your cartridges and tuning the Power Commander on the dyno. The skills/equipment to do that cost money.

Pops Yoshimura, Mr Moriwaki and co have got a lot to answer for.

[cowpoos]

Limited setup twiddling, limited power tuning, just motorcycles and riders, and the riders who really shine get to consider moving to the classes that involve more dedication and funding, while the others get a straightforward chance at participating in the best fun you can have with your pants on.

Because, in the end, isn't that what it's all about?

Your still a twit Dan...give yourself a few years in racing...and you will have a better formed opinion!!

[Ocean1]

That's why it's the best team that usually wins, not just the fastest bike or best rider. Just ask Kenny Roberts Jnr, or Jerry Burgess.

Yeah. Americas Cup’s a classic example, you can have the biggest budget and the best staff available and still fall well short. Team dynamics is a fascinating black art.



Dunno about that. D'ya reckon casey Stoner knows much about building a Ducati D16? Todays competition is all about specialised knowledge with specialists knowing all there is to know about their particular sphere of interest and feck all about anything else.

It's along time since World Championship riders got their hands dirty. With 16-17 year olds riding 125GP bikes in World Championships there's precious little time for learning the spannering side of things other than as an interested observer.

Amazing rider, right at the pointy end of the bell curve WRT that very esoteric set of physical motor skills. I'm jealous as fuck. So, given your above comment about teams how do you reconcile Stoner and Co’s effective remuneration and status compared with them other dudes? What’s the name of they guy that designed his frame, the one that dyno’s his engines?

See, yer impartial engineer might look on a very good rider as a good investment in much the same way any employer values highly skilled labour... a necessary component of a complex logistics puzzle. The marketing boys, now, they’re all about fiscal strategy, the team and technology is merely an overhead. To be optimized to be sure, but minimized nonetheless.





On the local stage it's a little different, by necessity rather than choice. But rebuilding an old Gold Star BSA, GS1000 or even an RGV250 is a bit different to rebuilding an R6. For example I had the cams reground on my old R1 and with hard-facing (which has to be ground off, cams reprofiled, then reapplied) along with 20 valves (8 of which were Titanium, how do you do a 3 or 5 angle valve job on those fuckers? Ti work hardens...) involved this is not a job for the faint hearted. Then there is the "you get what you pay for argument". With over $2000 just for the valves on the R1 (valve recession problem) I wouldn't be too keen on risking a backyard job and catastrophic failure at 270km/hr. Ya get what ya pay for unless you can guarantee a good job by doing it yourself which is increasingly difficult to do.

All true, the days are gone where you could near double the power available from yer average engine with a bit of nous and not much cash. However, the less rules there are the more room there is to innovate, minimize the cost/return thing. Why piss around with huge revs and the associated costs if there’s no capacity limit? No constraint on forced induction, fuel etc.



F3 is pretty open for some "outside the box" thinking. Unfortunately we don't see that much of it.

In general times have changed and we demand excellence rather than the "have a go" attitude of old. "Jack of all trades master of none" just isn't good enough. Raising the needles in your carbs, and slipping a few coins in the fork legs before giving it a squirt up the road was standard practice, compared now to replacing the shim stack in your cartridges and tuning the Power Commander on the dyno. The skills/equipment to do that cost money.

Pops Yoshimura, Mr Moriwaki and co have got a lot to answer for.

Yeah. I’m just an old coont wot misses the days when you did it yourself or you did without. There’s undeniable glory in a small bunch of enthusiasts achieving unlikely results using naught but imagination and long nights. Shame we can’t formulate a class that gives it life eh?

To a techie production bikes are boring, they’re designed by the simple expediency of using last year’s bike as a template, this year’s competition performance numbers as a target and adding bling. A fashion show. The narrow focused incremental improvements allowable in limited class racing of them is no better. Expensive, if highly skilled tuning to make them 1% better than the rest. Yawn.

Almost all of the big improvement steps in performance come from fundamental changes in design concepts, all such improvements are the result of one man or a very small team. That definitely doesn’t describe either modern production bikes, or the racing of ‘em.


AM I allowed to use peroxide in F3?

[cowpoos]

To a techie production bikes are boring, they’re designed by the simple expediency of using last year’s bike as a template, this year’s competition performance numbers as a target and adding bling. A fashion show. The narrow focused incremental improvements allowable in limited class racing of them is no better. Expensive, if highly skilled tuning to make them 1% better than the rest. Yawn.

Crap...How are they boring...they are the pinnicle of modern engineering!! fuck sake...I don't even know how you could state that???

Comments like that make you sound a bit daft dude!!

Flowing high volumes of air through a engine across the rev range is a mind boogling excersise of possibilities...you could still come up with something very uniqe...like rotary valve head on a ZXR400?? would make some healthy horsepower if set up well!! and reliable!!

[Ocean1]

Crap...How are they boring...they are the pinnicle of modern engineering!! fuck sake...I don't even know how you could state that???

Thought that'd get a bite. You're sorta right, they're the pinical of marketable quality, mass producable technology. Give the same design objective to a genuine blue-sky development team without those constraints and you'd get a bike that'd make a production sports bike look distinctly agricultural. Honest. It's what I do.


Flowing high volumes of air through a engine across the rev range is a mind boogling excersise of possibilities...you could still come up with something very uniqe...like rotary valve head on a ZXR400?? would make some healthy horsepower if set up well!! and reliable!!

Right again, extreme velocity flow dynamics is an excercise in pure applied physics and fucking hard experimental work. I've got no idea what the rules are dude, would a rotary valve be legal? Not a new idea, but every now and then old, marginal concepts merge with new materials, and magic happens.

[slowpoke]

Give the same design objective to a genuine blue-sky development team without those constraints and you'd get a bike that'd make a production sports bike look distinctly agricultural. Honest. It's what I do.


Hmmm, I reckon you'd get something like the Elf bike, or the upside down NSR (exhausts over the top, tank in the belly) that is theoretically better but practically doesn't quite work. As per the mega dollar MV's and Ducati's which also make mass produced stuff look agricultural they don't work any better than their common or garden variety cousins, despite all the lovely billet and carbon fibre bits

Bikes are where they are 'cos they have evolved incrementally over time, following the path that works, almost like nature. But if you'd told someone in 1970 that they would ride a bike that produced 160hp, weighed 170kg's and was a pussy cat to ride they would've laughed at you.

[Ocean1]

Hmmm, I reckon you'd get something like the Elf bike, or the upside down NSR (exhausts over the top, tank in the belly) that is theoretically better but practically doesn't quite work. As per the mega dollar MV's and Ducati's which also make mass produced stuff look agricultural they don't work any better than their common or garden variety cousins, despite all the lovely billet and carbon fibre bits.

Elf eh? will look. I agree, those mega dollar MVs and Ducatis aren't significantly better than the cookie-cutter Jap bikes. You're also right about the evolution aspect of production driven product development. One of the advantages of that type of top-down process is that you can eventually develop a feature you're extremely unlikely to get from any other method, the results can be very counter-intuitive.


Bikes are where they are 'cos they have evolved incrementally over time, following the path that works, almost like nature. But if you'd told someone in 1970 that they would ride a bike that produced 160hp, weighed 170kg's and was a pussy cat to ride they would've laughed at you.

Some of those changes came in fairly big lumps dude. Disk brakes, for example did not gradually morf from drums. You rarely see fundamental paradigm changes from evolutionary design, it usually takes some sort of radical conceptual departure from traditional thinking, and that’s simply not how manufacturing product development works. Disks again: several people thought about the advantages of full-rim-diameter disks before Mr Buell, but he turned the idea inside out, and the result works bloody well.

Many a privateer has embarrassed the factory offerings precisely because he’s less blinded by the sheer weight of historical data that drives incremental development protocols. They usually do that on a fraction of the budget, and I love it.

[Ozzy27]

Crap...How are they boring...they are the pinnicle of modern engineering!! fuck sake...I don't even know how you could state that???

Comments like that make you sound a bit daft dude!!

Flowing high volumes of air through a engine across the rev range is a mind boogling excersise of possibilities...you could still come up with something very uniqe...like rotary valve head on a ZXR400?? would make some healthy horsepower if set up well!! and reliable!!

Sorry Man prody classes are boring for a guy who lives and breathes bike tech stuff. I miss not having data recording to look over. I also like to try different stuff (ozzy 450) because if you just do the same as everyone else all you have is what everyone else has!!
Rotary Valves dont work!! Even though they theroatically flow more air than a poppet valve when they are fully open the fact is they are only in that state for about 0.1% of the time. If you map the flow through a poppet valve and a rotary valve through a full operation cycle the poppet is a long way better!
A lot of time has been spent looking into it and computer simulation. There are a few articles on it in some specalist motorsport magazines.


To the point of this thread. We can make up what ever rules we want. Unless they are enforceable they are a waste of time. I can think of bikes every year for at least the last 10 that have obvious breaches of the rules but very little has been done. Part of this is that the technology has out grown the rule enforcers.
And it wont be any better this year as the few people that have the knowledge that could enforce the rules are either directly involved or have no desire to get involved.

As to production classes. Almost all other 1st world countries have some sort of feeder class or Classes that are very close to stock normally at 2nd teir level and quite often single make. Off the top of my head most run revalved or std suspension and hard (sc2 front Sc3 rear) spec tyres. A lot have age or skill restrictions(c or d grade) to make sure they stay as feeder classes and keep burglars out.

The best outcome for NZ I believe is a superstock class run as a class with in the main Supersport class probally with a control tyre. And the top 3 place getters from the previous year or podium finshers from Supersport or superbike can not run in the class.(we are too small for age limits). Std shocks, Revalved forks, Muffler,520 chain.
Then we need to get a dyno to the tracks. It is the easiest way to check bikes.
:done:

[Ocean1]

Then we need to get a dyno to the tracks. It is the easiest way to check bikes.
:done:

How repeatable are dynos, results from one to another?

Why not just restrict fuel quantity, simpler?

[Shaun P]

To the point of this thread. We can make up what ever rules we want. Unless they are enforceable they are a waste of time. I can think of bikes every year for at least the last 10 that have obvious breaches of the rules but very little has been done. Part of this is that the technology has out grown the rule enforcers.
And it wont be any better this year as the few people that have the knowledge that could enforce the rules are either directly involved or have no desire to get involved.

As to production classes. Almost all other 1st world countries have some sort of feeder class or Classes that are very close to stock normally at 2nd teir level and quite often single make. Off the top of my head most run revalved or std suspension and hard (sc2 front Sc3 rear) spec tyres. A lot have age or skill restrictions(c or d grade) to make sure they stay as feeder classes and keep burglars out.

The best outcome for NZ I believe is a superstock class run as a class with in the main Supersport class probally with a control tyre. And the top 3 place getters from the previous year or podium finshers from Supersport or superbike can not run in the class.(we are too small for age limits). Std shocks, Revalved forks, Muffler,520 chain.
Then we need to get a dyno to the tracks. It is the easiest way to check bikes.
:done:

Well put - in a nutshell

[Shaun P]

How repeatable are dynos, results from one to another?

Why not just restrict fuel quantity, simpler?

1 Quite good on same dyno same day tyre etc

2 simpler?...no

[jrandom]

Your still a twit Dan...give yourself a few years in racing...and you will have a better formed opinion!!

Oh, probably.

I'm in a fairly good mood about the necessity of forming it, mind you.

:D

[Shaun]

That was Supersport not Superstock which my team was in. Good old Glen cleaned up in Supersport he was awesome to watch. He's got a good ride next year on a superbike for HM Plant with Josh Brookes

True, my bad!

Hey, ask Nick if he has a SB for me for the TT

[Ozzy27]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1837964]How repeatable are dynos, results from one to another?

The point is not the number produced who cares is all the bikes make 180 Zogs each at invercargill and 160 zogs each at timaru. What you are looking for is when 9 bikes make 160 zogs today and one bike makes 175 zogs. You then have a reason to go looking a lot more. They will also show up close ratio gear boxes easily. It is just a simple way to make sure of an fairer playing feild. And even the worst computer controlled dynos can cope with reasonable repeatability over the 30-45 mins it would take to Dyno a feild of bikes.
Cheers
Ozzy

[wharfy]

Some of those changes came in fairly big lumps dude. Disk brakes, for example did not gradually morf from drums. .

"Modern" disk brakes have been around in cars since the 50's I think the Honda 750 /4 was the bike to use them in 1969 ?
And the early ones were not much of an improvement (if any) as far as performance was concerned over good drums.
This is probably not actually relevant to this thread but mildly interesting :)

[cowpoos]

I'm in a fairly good mood about the necessity of forming it, mind you.




Lol...I'm please dan.

[Mishy]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1837964]How repeatable are dynos, results from one to another?

The point is not the number produced who cares is all the bikes make 180 Zogs each . . . . . .
Cheers
Ozzy

:) First time I've laughed all day !
Ferkin good :)

[Ocean1]

The point is not the number produced who cares is all the bikes make 180 Zogs each at invercargill and 160 zogs each at timaru. What you are looking for is when 9 bikes make 160 zogs today and one bike makes 175 zogs. You then have a reason to go looking a lot more. They will also show up close ratio gear boxes easily. It is just a simple way to make sure of an fairer playing feild. And even the worst computer controlled dynos can cope with reasonable repeatability over the 30-45 mins it would take to Dyno a feild of bikes.
Cheers
Ozzy

Yeah, I understand. But if you define maximum HP you're removing a lot of the skill in the game dude.

What I was sorta suggesting was: "Bikes of this class at the last meeting here used an average of 3.22 Litres of control fuel. Here's your 3.23 Litres, good luck"
See, fussy tuning will pay dividends but wacking on a disguised oversized carb and "correcting" that wee head distortion by 0.5mm ain't going to work. If you manage to wring an extra 15 zogs outa yer bike AND still cross the finish line you fucking deserve to win.

[Scoot_6R]

True, my bad!

Hey, ask Nick if he has a SB for me for the TT

You will have to compete with Ryan Farquar for that one Shaun.

[slowpoke]

Yeah, I understand. But if you define maximum HP you're removing a lot of the skill in the game dude.

What I was sorta suggesting was: "Bikes of this class at the last meeting here used an average of 3.22 Litres of control fuel. Here's your 3.23 Litres, good luck"
See, fussy tuning will pay dividends but wacking on a disguised oversized carb and "correcting" that wee head distortion by 0.5mm ain't going to work. If you manage to wring an extra 15 zogs outa yer bike AND still cross the finish line you fucking deserve to win.

It's one thing to limit fuel in a 45 minute MotoGP race with their telemetry and ability to montor fuel useage and vary engine mapping on the fly, but it's a bit more problematic for a 10 minute dash such as we have here for club meetings on relatively basic machinery.

It means more people are required to get fuel to the track, ensure tanks are completely empty, very accurately distribute the fuel, seal tanks etc and more testing/tuning for the competitors. How do you allow for varying atmospheric conditions? I can see it being a logistical nightmare for our largely volounteer club/National resources.

There's also the safety issue of a bikes hammering along at near top speed on the last lap/corner and having the bike in front of a pack running outta fuel.....nasty.

[Shaun]

You will have to compete with Ryan Farquar for that one Shaun.


go for it man, Ryan is very good, I really like his attitude

[Nasty]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=87503

Link to another thread on the proposed production racing series.

[slowpoke]

You will have to compete with Ryan Farquar for that one Shaun.

My money is on the angry ginga....hook into 'im Shaun you can take the bugger! If you can shake off an argument with a dry stone wall he doesn't stand a chance.....

[Ocean1]

:bash::2guns::2guns::2guns::nya::ar15:

...It was such a good idea...