Freedom of speech.

[raftn]

We are lucky, we live in a country where freedom of speech is allowed, (Some will disagree, but compared to other countries we do). And I am all for it, freedom of expression etc etc.

Which brings me to my point, where do you draw the line when it comes to postings that are racist, derogatory to ones sex, or sexuality, or religion etc.

Don't get me wrong, those who know me know i am a very liberal person, but still at times I find some things posted on this site, "beyond the realms of good taste", Of course some one will tell me to HTFU, but you are missing the point of what i am saying.

I have a pretty good sense of humour, what i find diffucult to understand is when people attack some body simply because of the colour of their skin, who the worship, or who they sleep with.


I was always taught, if you are not prepared to say it to some ones face, then dont say it at all.

Where exactly do we draw the line.........It is very easy to hide behind a key board.

[nodrog]

why do we have to draw a line?

[portokiwi]

Who is a pure bred???? no New Zealanders are.
Me I am like a bag of smartiees. hard on the outside.... nice and soft on the inside and if the need arises I sit on the loo and get rid of the choc:lol:

[Forest]

Web forums are the 20th century equivalent of the wall in a public toilet.

I wouldn't worry about it.

[Headbanger]

There are billions of websites that cater for all tastes, Its more a situation where as you can frequent a place that suits rather then insisting everyone else change to suit you.

Even in little old NZ there is a multitude of motorcycle sites to choose from.

[CookMySock]

why do we have to draw a line?You don't. But you could.

It is like the concept or freedom. Basically, you should be free to conduct yourself in any manner you see fit. And I mean any manner. Now you have freedom.

But what if everyone else chose to do the same? Would their actions infringe upon your rights? Will you still have freedom if they take said actions?

So who gets freedom and who does not? Because on the face of it, no one can truly have freedom since they must either limit their own actions, or else have other people exercising their freedom, overwrite your freedom.

So what is freedom? Absence of control, or absence or interference?

It is plain to a small group of people, they they should, or must, and will, be able to simply do anything they choose, or else their freedom is being curtailed.

It is equally plain to another group, that they should be insulated from a certain group of people, since said group of people continue to interfere with their free and safe passage, and therefor infringe their rights and freedom.

So why does one group get freedom and one group not? The answer is, one is group is stronger than the next, and they will simply wrest their freedom at all costs.

There are two ways to freedom. Either buy a gun, or accept that your actions cannot infringe the rights of others, lest you revoke their rights to freedom, and demand your own.

Steve

[nodrog]

You don't. But you could.

It is like the concept or freedom. Basically, you should be free to conduct yourself in any manner you see fit. And I mean any manner. Now you have freedom.

But what if everyone else chose to do the same? Would their actions infringe upon your rights? Will you still have freedom if they take said actions?

So who gets freedom and who does not? Because on the face of it, no one can truly have freedom since they must either limit their own actions, or else have other people exercising their freedom, overwrite your freedom.

So what is freedom? Absence of control, or absence or interference?

It is plain to a small group of people, they they should, or must, and will, be able to simply do anything they choose, or else their freedom is being curtailed.

It is equally plain to another group, that they should be insulated from a certain group of people, since said group of people continue to interfere with their free and safe passage, and therefor infringe their rights and freedom.

So why does one group get freedom and one group not? The answer is, one is group is stronger than the next, and they will simply wrest their freedom at all costs.

There are two ways to freedom. Either buy a gun, or accept that your actions cannot infringe the rights of others, lest you revoke their rights to freedom, and demand your own.

Steve

what?

___________

[Duke girl]

This world we live in is made up of all different types of cultures and thats what makes it interesting. Freedom of choice can be looked at in a couple of different ways. You have those who go out of their way to say what ever to who ever about things that they know is going to upset those they are expressing themselves to and dont care about doing so, then you have those who are careful in what they talk about in front of whoever, as these type of people have concideration about what they say to whom.
I judge people for who they are and not what they are nor their colour, so when it comes to freedom of choice its really up to the individual themselves in how the go about conducting it.

[boomer]

what?

___________


lollies.. teh man needs help... :doctor:

[NighthawkNZ]

where do you draw the line when it comes to postings that are racist, derogatory to ones sex, or sexuality, or religion etc.

...

Where exactly do we draw the line.........It is very easy to hide behind a key board.

easy... read the site rules...

[Hitcher]

This thread is nothing without pictures.

[James Deuce]

Freedom of speech is an illusion perpetrated by the Capitalist purveyors of the biggest crimes against Humanity of the 21st Century: Information and Entertainment.

[jrandom]

Free speech is only the stuff you can't be charged for.

[Katman]

My tourettes lets me get away with anything.

[Badjelly]

You sound like you've got something on your mind, raftn, other than general banalities about freedom of speech. Why don't you tell us what it is? Then again, why don't you just ignore whatever it is and move on.

There was a pretty offensive racist joke posted today, but I treated it the way I treat spam in my inbox. I ignore and forget it. Actually, I've already forgotten it. What joke?

[Usarka]

I blame the black catholic lesbians.

If someones viewpoint offends you use the ignore button. If its abusive report it.

How do ya like them lines? :cool:

[CookMySock]

Here we go. Now we get a deluge of people who disagree, who dont have the intelligence to disagree using logic.

Heres their method of operation ;

1.) Ignore the question at hand

2.) Fill the thread with idiotic talk

3.) Troll and abuse those who respond

4.) Thread gets PD'ed - mission accomplished - free speech averted.

Mods - please do your job. This thread started out as valid discussion-opener.. Valid in at least one persons eyes anyway, and that is valid enough. PD the offending posts and infract the perpetrators.

Steve

[vifferman]

I blame the black catholic lesbians.
Nah, it's those blardy baby Afghanistani lesbian fur seal whale penguins.
Kill the fookers.

[Usarka]

Here we go. Now we get a deluge of people who disagree, who dont have the intelligence to disagree using logic.

Heres their method of operation ;

1.) Ignore the question at hand

2.) Fill the thread with idiotic talk

3.) Troll and abuse those who respond

4.) Thread gets PD'ed - mission accomplished - free speech averted.

Mods - please do your job. This thread started out as valid discussion-opener.. Valid in at least one persons eyes anyway, and that is valid enough. PD the offending posts and infract the perpetrators.

Steve

In your opinion. I count maybe 4 out of 18 posts that aren't *directly* related to the topic at hand in some way but they contribute humour (well i reckon most of them do - btw laughter is the best medicince). Mind you it's 5 posts if you count this one of yours. Oh and 6 now I've taken effort to respond to it.


There was a pretty offensive racist joke posted today, but I treated it the way I treat spam in my inbox. I ignore and forget it. Actually, I've already forgotten it. What joke?

Excellent so the OP has drawn the attention of those who missed it to a real offensive joke and we are all going to go and find it.

Unintended consequences of exercising free speech criticising free speech?? :wacko:

[jrandom]

Here we go. Now we get a deluge of people who disagree, who dont have the intelligence to disagree using logic.

You wouldn't recognise logic if it jumped up, bit you on the arse, crawled up your rectum and strangled you with your own intestines.

[98tls]

You wouldn't recognise logic if it jumped up, bit you on the arse, crawled up your rectum and strangled you with your own intestines. So if theres any logic about could he/she please sign in before attemting such a thing so the rest of us can recognise you.Ta.

[Badjelly]

Excellent so the OP has drawn the attention of those who missed it to a real offensive joke and we are all going to go and find it.

No, that was me. And why would you go and find it? It's really not worth the bother.

[Slyer]

You have the right to say whatever you like but the admins also have the right to ban your ass for whatever they want.

I also support people's right to discriminate.
If a cafe owner want to refuse service to the guy because he's black, I say let him. He's a fucking prick, I'd boycott the cafe and tell everyone else to do the same but I support his right to do it.
You may think that this is horrible and should never be allowed but places already do this and most people don't care.'
Curves, for example, does not allow male members to join. How is this not sexual discrimination?
Give the freedom and let the people decide what is a dick move and what isn't.

The only reason slander is illegal is because of line of thinking that "He couldn't say it if it wasn't true", it is to protect people but it wouldn't be necessary if speech were completely free.

[hayd3n]

bla bla....etc etc

Steve
wtf?? huh????

[Ixion]

No, that was me. And why would you go and find it? It's really not worth the bother.

But I *like* really offensive racist jokes. Now I shall be unable to rest until I have found it.

[Mikkel]

But I *like* really offensive racist jokes. Now I shall be unable to rest until I have found it.

Could you send me a link when you've found it? I'm not just fond of "over-the-line" jokes, I'm bloody lazy as well. :yes:

[Ixion]

Found it. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86383) Phew. Not very offensive , but. I hope I got the right one.

[James Deuce]

Curves, for example, does not allow male members to join. How is this not sexual discrimination?


You dead. You don't know it, but you dead.

[jrandom]

Ixion beat me to it.

A bit silly really.

I prefer the one about the Maoris who turned up at the Pearly Gates and insisted on speaking with God. St Peter eventually heads off to see if he can make an appointment, gets one sorted, but then comes rushing back into the Divine Presence only a minute or so later.

"God! God! They've gone!"

"What, the Maoris?"

"No, the Pearly Gates!"

[jrandom]

Curves, for example, does not allow male members to join. How is this not sexual discrimination?

You do realise that it's a gym for chicks who are ugly enough to not want to be seen by males in anything less than five layers of trackpants and sweaters, don't you?

It's not discrimination; they're doing you a favour bro.

[Slyer]

Fuck do you hear me protesting? lol
I'm saying let them refuse to let men join if they like.

[Katman]

You wouldn't recognise logic if it jumped up, bit you on the arse, crawled up your rectum and strangled you with your own intestines.

Maybe not, but I bet there'd be a Michael Hutchence-like smile on his face.

[Mikkel]

Found it. (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=86383) Phew. Not very offensive , but. I hope I got the right one.

That can not be it! Seriously, WTF? :eek5:

[nodrog]

move to edgecumbe and take it international

[Pedrostt500]

Web forums are the 20th century equivalent of the wall in a public toilet.

I wouldn't worry about it.

With out the stink of a dirty urinal.

[CookMySock]

Success! Thread is fully sidetracked, perpretrators get off scott free, thread starter and supporters fully ridiculed, impending PD.

Welcome to KB.

Steve

[Hitcher]

Success! Thread is fully sidetracked

It's not sidetracked, it's just resting.

And how can a thread about freedom of speech ever be off topic?

[Headbanger]

You do realise that it's a gym for chicks who are ugly enough to not want to be seen by males in anything less than five layers of trackpants and sweaters, don't you?

It's not discrimination; they're doing you a favour bro.

I figured it was so they could perve on each other, then break off into pairs for some lesbo sex, finishing off with an all in orgy.

[Paul in NZ]

Wikipedia is your friend....

The freedom of speech is not absolute. Legal systems, and society at large, recognize limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other values or rights.[17] Exercising freedom of speech always takes place within a context of competing values. Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography or "hate speech".[18] Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction and/or social disapprobation.[19]

In "On Liberty" (1859) John Stuart Mill argued that "...there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it may be considered."[19] Mill argues that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. However, Mill also introduced what is known as the harm principle, in placing the following limitation on free expression: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[19]

In 1985 Joel Feinberg introduced what is known as the "offence principle", arguing that Mill's harm principle does not provide sufficient protection against the wrongful behaviours of others. Feinberg wrote "It is always a good reason in support of a proposed criminal prohibition that it would probably be an effective way of preventing serious offense (as opposed to injury or harm) to persons other than the actor, and that it is probably a necessary means to that end."[20] Hence Feinberg argues that the harm principle sets the bar too high and that some forms of expression can be legitimately prohibited by law because they are very offensive. But, as offending someone is less serious than harming someone, the penalties imposed should be higher for causing harm.[20] In contrast Mill does not support legal penalties unless they are based on the harm principle.[19] Because the degree to which people may take offense varies, or may be the result of unjustified prejudice, Feinberg suggests that a number of factors need to be taken into account when applying the offense principle, including: the extent, duration and social value of the speech, the ease with which it can be avoided, the motives of the speaker, the number of people offended, the intensity of the offense, and the general interest of the community at large.[19]

[FJRider]

So in short... free speech comes with a price... it is only much later, the full price is known...

[SPman]

You have the freedom to slag me off, as long as I have the freedom to bust your teeth!

[Usarka]

You have the freedom to slag me off, as long as I have the freedom to bust your teeth!

Then the freedom of speech will sound like this "faah euw euw shhtuupa maatha fuha"

[Forest]

Curves, for example, does not allow male members to join. How is this not sexual discrimination?

Men also aren't allowed in women's toilets and changing rooms.

As in the case of Curves Gym, our society recognises that our right to be protected against sexual discrimination needs to balanced against our right of free association.

You are quite welcome to form a male only gym if you want to. Such a gym would not be prohibited under NZ law.

[Slyer]

Yeah but what if I wanted to open a gym that jews or black people weren't allowed to enter? :msn-wink:

What if I called the Gym "Fuck the Pope"?

We have a long way to go. :)

[Fatt Max]

Which brings me to my point, where do you draw the line when it comes to postings that are racist, derogatory to ones sex, or sexuality, or religion etc.

I met a black lesbian muslim once, jeez she was a fecking pain in the arse...!

[Badjelly]

Found it. Phew. Not very offensive.

And even less funny.

[Beemer]

Sometimes I bite, especially if it's something I feel strongly about, but often I look at who's posting and think "he/she's doing it to stir" and don't bother. Happy to give my opinion but sometimes it's not worth the hassle.

[Marmoot]

I blame the black catholic lesbians.


black young chinese asian catholic lesbians students driving hondas...

[ManDownUnder]

I draw the line where it broaches topics in a manner I wouldn't.

I also take the viewpoint that others can take or leave what I think, on the condition they give me the same courtesy.

Easy really.

[Indiana_Jones]

"You have the right to free speech. As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it."

-Indy

[jrandom]

You are quite welcome to form a male only gym if you want to.

But, dude, that would be gay.

[Badjelly]

"You have the right to free speech. As long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it." -Indy

Man that's one ugly avatar you've got there. Time for Adblock, i think.

[alanzs]

This is the internet. People can and do say anything. I have the right to not read it, just like we have the right to turn the channell on the tv when we don't like something. I believe in freedom to speak.

[Badjelly]

...just like we have the right to turn the channell on the tv when we don't like something.

Mrs Jelly doesn't let me do that. :no:

[alanzs]

Mrs Jelly doesn't let me do that. :no:

I should have said "someone has the right..." :yes:

[Winston001]

Wikipedia is your friend....

The freedom of speech is not absolute. Legal systems, and society at large, recognize limits on the freedom of speech, particularly when freedom of speech conflicts with other values or rights.[17] Exercising freedom of speech always takes place within a context of competing values. Limitations to freedom of speech may follow the "harm principle" or the "offense principle", for example in the case of pornography or "hate speech".[18] Limitations to freedom of speech may occur through legal sanction and/or social disapprobation.[19]

In "On Liberty" (1859) John Stuart Mill argued that "...there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it may be considered."[19] Mill argues that the fullest liberty of expression is required to push arguments to their logical limits, rather than the limits of social embarrassment. However, Mill also introduced what is known as the harm principle, in placing the following limitation on free expression: "the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."[19]

In 1985 Joel Feinberg introduced what is known as the "offence principle", arguing that Mill's harm principle does not provide sufficient protection against the wrongful behaviours of others. Feinberg wrote "It is always a good reason in support of a proposed criminal prohibition that it would probably be an effective way of preventing serious offense (as opposed to injury or harm) to persons other than the actor, and that it is probably a necessary means to that end."[20] Hence Feinberg argues that the harm principle sets the bar too high and that some forms of expression can be legitimately prohibited by law because they are very offensive. But, as offending someone is less serious than harming someone, the penalties imposed should be higher for causing harm.[20] In contrast Mill does not support legal penalties unless they are based on the harm principle.[19] Because the degree to which people may take offense varies, or may be the result of unjustified prejudice, Feinberg suggests that a number of factors need to be taken into account when applying the offense principle, including: the extent, duration and social value of the speech, the ease with which it can be avoided, the motives of the speaker, the number of people offended, the intensity of the offense, and the general interest of the community at large.[19]

The above takes a bit of digesting but its as good a summary of the subject as any. PHD researchers and philosophers write reams and reams on the conflict between freedom of expression and the limits society imposes.

There is no simple answer - but the one counter-argument which gets overlooked time and time again is that for every freedom, there is a responsibility. That's if you want to continue to live in the community with a common set of rules and laws. Of course if you don't, fine, off to the desert for a life of free anarchy..... :Punk:

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Headbanger - There are billions of websites that cater for all tastes, Its more a situation where as you can frequent a place that suits rather then insisting everyone else change to suit you.

Even in little old NZ there is a multitude of motorcycle sites to choose from.

Spot on. :done: The internet may have unleashed a vast horde of poor spellers and stupid people but you can avoid them. KB is very tolerannt compared with other forums where abuse, swearing etc simply is not allowed.

However the colour and popularity of this site arises because of the freedom to pretty much post anything. Seems to work. :yes:

[Badjelly]

However the colour and popularity of this site arises because of the freedom to pretty much post anything. Seems to work. :yes:

Yeah. Pity about the punctuation and spelling though ;)

[Winston001]

Yeah. Pity about the punctuation and spelling though ;)

Fortunately we have the BDOTNZGA http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/group.php?groupid=10 to craft and bludgen offenders into place. :devil2:

[Usarka]

Yeah. Pity about the punctuation and spelling though ;)

A ;) isn't a form of punctuation, and it certainly isn't a full stop. :p

[Badjelly]

A ;) isn't a form of punctuation, and it certainly isn't a full stop. :p

Hoist by my own pedant! Good on ya mate :bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh: