Gaza

[James Deuce]

Yes, how dare this person interrupt a tennis match because hundreds of women and children are being killed and injured? They do not share the most common NZ religion and their skin is not pig pink, so who gives a toss? Let's get on with important things like tennis, cricket, etc. and forget about insignificant nonsense like nazi genocide going on somewhere else in the world...

We must always remember that it's OK to kill Jews.

[Maki]

Your easily led by spin alright, just not my spin. (If you want to know who's spin is leading you, then find out for yourself who has more control and ownership of the western media, Palestinians or Iraelies.)
You can spin it all you like but I tend to take sides with the weak against the strong, always have and always will.

There was a time, not so long ago when civilians of many occupied countries gathered together and fought nazi invaders. Militants, "conveniently dress as civillians" murdered a certain Heydrich. As punishment "a village in the Czech Republic just north-west of Prague which, as part of Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, was completely destroyed by the Germans in reprisal for the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich during World War II. On June 10, 1942, all 192 men over 16 years of age from the village were murdered on the spot by the Germans in a much publicized atrocity. The rest of the population were sent to Nazi concentration camps where many women and nearly all the children were killed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice

And this is genocide isn't it? I take it that Germany had decided to exterminate all people in Lidice without any provocation?

How soon we forget, and how cold are our hearts....

[MacD]

We must always remember that it's OK to kill Jews.

The current exchange rate appears to be about 70 Palestinians to the Israeli (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm).

[slofox]

Some Middle Eastern Country's have hated each other for hundreds of years,

Yep - but I think it's actually thousands of years Maha...best we build a huge wall around 'em all and leave 'em be...I wonder how much interest there would be in that particular conflict if the Middle East had no oil...

[Dak]

I reckon we should get Team America to go into Gaza and destroy all the WOMD's, that'll fix em. Team America, F%^K Yea!

[Maki]

Indeed. Because what the fuck has this poor girl done HERSELF PERSONALLY to deserve any type of fucking protest?

And how could you possibly call what is happening over there anything like 'nazi genocide'?

If you had you family rapped up warm and safe at home, and I started shooting arrows through your windows with a crossbow...and you owned an m16....you'd eventually use it.

Given the state of what passes for a free media I understand your perspective. Given the realities on the ground I don't agree with it. The resistance movement in WW2 surely killed and harrased some Germans. I do however believe that the German response was often brutal and disproportionate, for example in the case of the Heydrich murder that I mentioned earlier in this thread.

It seems that many feel that the Germans had every right to do what they did, and the Isralies have every right to kill 70 for every one of theirs. I just don't share the sentiment.

Consider this question, what led to the rise of Hamas and the popular vote for Hamas? Does anyone remember the PLO? Does anyone remember how Israel basicly eradicated them? What did they think they would get instead? Something more moderate?

Finally I would like to point out this item from an Israely newspaper, Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html

"Once again, Israel's violent responses, even if there is justification for them, exceed all proportion and cross every red line of humaneness, morality, international law and wisdom."

[paturoa]

There is no win here. We are simply looking at variations of this over time. It will be just how many are being killed where and when. I suspect that the body count currently heavily favours the Is more then the Ps over the last 10 years or so - who knows. This may change over the next hundred years - who knows again?

Minto and his buddies are taking a micro lens focus to a much larger issue and pissing into the wind. Unfortunately the current piss is spraying onto more innocents.

What exactly is he trying to achieve?

I listened to an interview on the radio today, and the apparent issue that is at the core is the opression etc of the I's against the Ps. There is a lot of valid stuff there, others argue that it is unbalanced surviuval????

I thought that:
- siince the UN set up the 2 states after WWII, at the end of the British rule, that there were multiple displaced people.
- that there has been several wars with the aim of eliminating the I State.
- that radical Ps (and others) stated aim is to eliminate the I State
- that radical Is (and others) stated aim is to keep the I State at all costs.

So, lets imagine that the I's will stop "retailating", and continue to get out of the occupied areas (as they have been for the last few years). Will the a'hole Ps stop trying to kill the I's and eliminate I?

A badly thought through micro protest.

[Maki]

Sorry I could not go past this comment. At risk of taking this thread way off the topic of what a complete waste of space Minto is....

WHAT????????

"Seems" was the word I used. Germany occupied European countries and used disproportionate force against the resistance movements. Israel occupied Palestine and uses disproportionate force against the resistance movement.

If you can condone one, how can you not condone the other? It "seems" to me, Mom that if you approve of brutal disproportionate violence in one country you inevitably do so in another, unless you happen to be a bigot.

[James Deuce]

The current exchange rate appears to be about 70 Palestinians to the Israeli (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm).
There is no exchange rate.

One person dying violently to further the ends of any State or State sanctioned group is one too many. Just 'cos I don't like it doesn't mean people will stop doing it though, because people tend to the Path of Suck, rather than the Road of Truly Excellent Behaviour to one another.

Human nature being what it is though breaks war into stats. Quality has a certain quantity when you're chucking munitions.

It's a bit of a "meh" really though, isn't it? One person's furious tirade against wrongs of the world via an Internet site adds up to exactly nothing.

John Minto's protest is meaningless as well.

Some of you folks need to read some history though. It's arguable that both the current Middle Eastern calamity and the Holocaust can be laid at Winston Churchill and Josef Stalin's feet. No one gives a shit about the historical background though, because most people simply don't care about History, either personal or global.

Always remember when discussing this subject: There has never been a "State" called Palestine. Israel was closed for business by the Roman Empire by the simple expedient of borrowing their best and brightest to run the Roman Empire. Winston Churchill screwed up a brilliant solution to the creation of a modern state of Israel, an inclusive Republic rather than an exclusive Democratic "religious" state.

[MisterD]

Israel occupied Palestine and uses disproportionate force against the resistance movement.

Israelies bought most of the land that comprises their state at market prices from absentee Arab landlords - most of the rest they won, fair and square from the Arab countries that attacked them with the express intention of pushing them into the Med.

Did you know that the IDF are actually telephoning the neghbours of target buildings to warn them? Perhaps they should be more proportionate and just lob 20 rockets a day into random residential areas?

John Minto is a twat alright, as it appears are the bulk of the media that buy the anti-semitic line.

[Maki]

Nice try, James, however....

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/balfour.htm

Which is indisputably the beginning of this Middle East calamity.

"During the First World War, British policy gravitated towards the creation of a Jewish home in Palestine. This was encouraged, in part, by a wish to motivate Jews in Russia towards the continuation of the Russian war effort, at that time endangered by engulfing revolution: in essence, that an Allied victory (which was taken to include Russia) would lead to the establishment of a Jewish state. Similarly, it was thought that the declaration would engage the sympathy of American Jews."

The Balfour declaration:

" His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

There are many lessons to be learned from this, and many conclusions that can be drawn....

[Swoop]

Israel has built a large wall around parts of the country to prevent terrorists from entering the country at will. This wall has been very effective. Note the lack of not-very-smart-bombs walking into nightclubs and marketplaces and detonating themselves.
Hamas is happy to lob mortar rounds and unguided missiles over the wall to indescrminately kill whoever is around.
I posted some time ago, about the use of Phalanx systems like our Navy uses, to track and shoot down bombs and missiles that were being sent over the wall.
It appears that Israel has worked hard to keep people safe in that part of the world.

Here are some other bits of info for you to peruse. You will not find this on tvnz or TV3.

January 6, 2009: The Israeli economy grew by 4.1 percent in 2008. The Palestinian economy in Gaza didn't. Hamas blames Israel for the economic collapse in Gaza, because a blockade intended to keep out weapons, for use against Israel, also keeps out other goods. Israel applies economic pressure in much the same way Hamas does (by crippling economic growth in southern Israel with rocket attacks.) But Hamas and Israel have different priorities. For Israel it's survival and growth. For Hamas it's the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a worldwide Islamic religious dictatorship. From a distance, it's easy to ignore the goals of Hamas, but the closer you get, the uglier, and more lethal, Hamas becomes. For example, Egypt has remained very hostile to Hamas, and any ceasefire that does not curb the organizations violent behavior. A recent poll of Israelis shows 95 percent of Jewish citizens support the operations against Hamas. Those are numbers no politician in a democracy can ignore.

The Israeli Air Force has been launching about 90 attacks a day on targets in Gaza. Smart bombs and guided missiles have been used extensively. For the last two years, the Israeli Army has been developing new tactics and equipment for fighting Hamas and Hezbollah type gunmen in urban areas. The Israelis have built training areas, with dense urban construction, and run many of its ground troops through special exercises. How well the new tactics and training are will be seen in the next week or so. The new tactics are meant to minimize civilian casualties, while enabling Israeli troops to quickly move through the area and kill or capture enemy personnel and equipment. Reservist units being called up, that have not gone through the special training, are being sent to the new training centers for at least a few days of instruction on the new tactics. These new methods, while officially secret, apparently involve some new fighting tactics, and lots of electronic warfare. Hamas has had to operate with both cell phones and landline communications down. In addition, their walkie-talkies are sometimes jammed, and apparently listened to carefully by Israeli electronic warfare troops. This is causing command and coordination problems for Hamas fighters.

In the north, the military has warned civilians that Hezbollah may begin firing rockets if Hamas looks like it is taking too much damage (that is, being defeated in the court of public opinion.) So far, about 550 Palestinians have died, and seven Israelis (including three soldiers killed in a friendly fire incident).

Hamas cannot win when fighting Israel, and is determined to win an Information War. That means getting the maximum number of Palestinian civilians killed or wounded and getting images of that onto TV worldwide. While Israel is keeping reporters out of the combat zone (since December 29th), Hamas is not, and reporters from Moslem nations are eager to tell the story as Hamas wants it told (you get expelled from the area, or worse, if you don't, but that's a story that won't get reported until long after this is all over.) Getting enough diplomatic pressure on Israel to force a ceasefire allows Hamas to re-arm and increase its attacks on Israel. You only have to look at the Arab language message coming from Hamas through all this. The destruction of Israel and extermination of the Jews is what Hamas is all about. They make no secret of it, but do play it down in their non-Arabic press releases. That's because Hamas knows that, by playing the victim, they get more sympathy (and threats of sanctions against Israel) from the West, and mode aid (cash, volunteers) from the Islamic world. Hamas believes last year was a victory for them, as terrorist attacks killed 36 Israelis in 2008, up from 13 in 2007. Most of these attacks were not the work, directly, of Hamas, but rather West Bank based terrorists or Israeli Arabs caught up in the "destroy Israel" movement. Although most Israeli Arabs are better off than Arabs anywhere else in the Middle East, many still back calls for the destruction of Israel, because it's (for most Arabs) the right thing to do.

Calls for a ceasefire are going unanswered because Hamas and Israel cannot agree on the terms. Israel wants an end to the smuggling from Egypt and an international police force ensuring that no more rockets or mortar shells are fired into southern Israel. Hamas will not accept this, and is urging that Israel stop bombing targets in Gaza, and get its troops out of Gaza. In return, Hamas offers a ceasefire like the one that ended in December (fewer rockets fired into southern Israel, but no restrictions on the smuggling from Egypt). Arab diplomats are demanding acceptance of the Hamas rules, while European diplomats are urging Israel to "be reasonable".

January 4, 2009: Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek, who just rotated into the presidency of the European Union, has made himself very unpopular in Western Europe by pointing out that Israel is simply defending itself. There's a big split between East and West Europe when it comes to terrorism and dealing with totalitarian governments (like Hamas). East Europe has half a century of recent history living under the rule of tyrants (Nazis and communists) who knew how to spin the media. While Western Europeans have read books like "1984", East Europeans lived it, and they have not forgotten. They will eventually, but they have only been free since 1989. Given another decade or so, and their memories of their despotic rulers will soften, as will their attitude towards modern day tyrants-with-good-publicists. Outfits like Hamas not only learned much from the Nazis and communists, but actually admire these two groups. Arabs were very pro-Nazi during World War II, and Hamas ally Hezbollah, up in Lebanon, has adopted the infamous Nazi straight arm salute as their own.

Hamas managed to fire about 30 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel. This activity is expected to decline even more as Israeli troops physically occupy the areas in northern Gaza from which most of the rockets are launched. Even now, Hamas has taken to launching the rockets from backyards in Gaza City. Palestinian civilians are fleeing the fighting, knowing well the Hamas preference for using civilians as human shields.

January 3, 2009: After nightfall, Israeli ground troops entered Gaza, quickly cutting the top third of the 41 kilometer long Gaza Strip off from the rest. This area has about 440,000 people, most of them crammed into Gaza City. The advance was preceded by the first use of artillery against Gaza in two years.

In eight days of operations, 430 Palestinians and four Israelis have been killed. Hamas has not been as successful as it hoped in using civilians as human shields, and running up the civilian death toll. Lots of dead civilians are essential to Hamas success (it getting enough Western countries threatening Israel and forcing a ceasefire). Fighting on the ground will cause more Israeli military personnel, but will make it more difficult for Hamas to get Palestinian civilians killed.

January 1, 2009: Hamas managed to fire about 70 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel. Israeli aircraft hit 25 targets in Gaza, including a mosque that was being used for storing weapons and launching rockets. Israel believes that 57 percent of the 390 Palestinians killed in Gaza so far were Hamas personnel, 11 percent were civilians, and, for the remainder, it was unclear.

December 31, 2008: Hamas has fired about 60 rockets and mortar shells a day into southern Israel since the Israeli bombing began on the 27th. These attacks have killed four Israelis and wounded several dozen.

Also, minto is a complete cunt.

[pritch]

Minto may very well be a fuckwit, I don't know, and frankly I don't care. There are more important things...

Like anti- semetism?

[enigma51]

I laughed last night when the un condemd israels actions then follow it up with a request for 3 hour stand down. Israel and hamash comply. 20 minutes after the 3 hours who throws the first bomb? Hamash...... ..... now who started it again?

[Maki]

I am pro semite, regardless of their religion, Jewish or Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

This is the kind of thing I am against:

"The International Committee of the Red Cross says it has found four small children alive next to their mothers' bodies in a Gaza home hit by Israeli shelling.

The aid group says a total of 15 dead were recovered from two houses in the Zaytun neighborhood of Gaza City on Wednesday.

Red Cross spokesman Pierre Wettach said Thursday rescuers had been refused permission by Israeli forces to reach the site for four days. He described the incident as "shocking."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3652757%2C00.html

And that my friend is just a small drop in an ocean of crime.

[davereid]

I laughed last night when the un condemd israels actions then follow it up with a request for 3 hour stand down. Israel and hamash comply. 20 minutes after the 3 hours who throws the first bomb? Hamash...... ..... now who started it again?

Israel can't end this war by stopping shooting, only Hamas can.

Israel can end the war by keeping shooting, approx 25000 Hamas to go.

And if you don't want a man in a turban insisting that you get a turban just like his, then lets hope Israel do a good job of it.

Hamas have the first goal of the destruction of Israel. Their second goal is the destruction of everything else.

[jrandom]

The Balfour declaration:

"My legs are so swollen!"

While you're all busily Thinking of the Children (tm), here's a link with some actual analysis of the political environment. FWIW.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20090107_hamas_and_arab_states

[slowpoke]

As usual we choose to shoot the messenger rather than listen to the message. It's such an irritating noise, distracting us from our cosseted lil' lives, why won't the fucker just shut up so we can concentrate on the cricket? Most of us don't even know what he's protesting about and yet we dismiss him out of hand. Agree or disagree at least he has the courage to stand up against what he sees as injustice, despite the inevitable abuse hurled his way.

But you're right, the cricket/tennis is on and it's on the other side of the world so who gives a fuck, eh? We don't want to know what they are scrapping about we don't even particularly care if it stops or goes on forever, we just want our precious quiet time with the telly.....

For what it's worth, here's something from www.newstatesman.com:

In May, the Glasgow University Media Group, distinguished for its pioneering media analysis, published a study of the reporting of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. It ought to be required reading in newsrooms and media schools. The research showed that the public's lack of understanding of the conflict and its origins was compounded by news reporting, especially on television.

Viewers, says the study, are rarely told that the Palestinians are victims of an illegal military occupation. The term "occupied territories" is almost never explained. Indeed, only 9 per cent of young people interviewed knew that the Israelis were the occupiers and the "settlers" were Israeli.

The selective use of language is important. The study found that words such as "murder", "atrocity", "lynching" and "savage, cold-blooded killing" were used only to describe Israeli deaths. "The extent to which some journalism assumes the Israeli perspective," wrote Professor Greg Philo, "can be seen if the statements are 'reversed' and presented as Palestinian actions. [We] did not find any [news] reports stating that 'The Palestinian attacks were in retaliation for the murder of those resisting the illegal Israeli occupation'."

Given that the central truth of the conflict is routinely obscured, none of this is surprising. News and current affairs programmes seldom, if ever, remind viewers that Israel was established largely by force on 78 per cent of historic Palestine and, since 1967, has illegally occupied and imposed various forms of military rule on the remaining 22 per cent.

I could go on about the atrocities commited by the Israeli forces in Jenin and Nablus (amongst others) but I'm guessing you'll find the cricket/tennis more important........

[BIGBOSSMAN]

But you're right, the cricket/tennis is on and it's on the other side of the world so who gives a fuck, eh? We don't want to know what they are scrapping about we don't even particularly care if it stops or goes on forever, we just want our precious quiet time with the telly.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_KIzbktgJk&feature=related

[MisterD]

The trouble is Slowpoke, that the media also fail to mention that the historic homeland for the Palestinian people is actually across Jordan and Syrian territory (The "West Bank" is Jordanian territory which Israel took when it was attacked).

The Arab nations have no affection for the Palestinans, who are actually from the same "semitic" stock as the Jews and it's in their interests that Israel continue to keep them down and to get the international flack for doing so...

[Fatjim]

Actually, the roots go back to when God promised Moses the land. We're talking 4000+ years ago at a guess. You aint going to be able to deal with that, except letting them fight it out.

Lets face it. The Jews have been kicked out of Palistine/Isreal/Judah more times than I've pulled wheelies. they keep coming back although they know the shit they're ghetting themselves into. Why? Because they believe that they have been promised the land, and to abandon that promise is to abandon their god. Thats pretty powerfull.

[Hitcher]

There is a solution to this: destroy completely the state of Israel and disputed neighbouring territories. Unlike this current supporating sore, a nuclear wasteland will eventually heal itself. Start by obliterating the city of Jerusalem to prove that the world is serious.

If over-indulged children can't share the toys, take the toys away. Parenting 101.

[jetboy]

Actually, the roots go back to when God promised Moses the land.

There's the bloody problem right there! Why doesn't God live up to his promise?

I saw that Minto protest on the tele and had to refrain from throwing something at it...that tennis player doesn't have anything to do with what's happening overseas, and neither does Minto.

Stop being a turd with a stick Minto, and if you mean what you say go and hold your sign up in Israel.
:done:

[Fatjim]

There is a solution to this: destroy completely the state of Israel and disputed neighbouring territories. Unlike this current supporating sore, a nuclear wasteland will eventually heal itself. Start by obliterating the city of Jerusalem to prove that the world is serious.

If over-indulged children can't share the toys, take the toys away. Parenting 101.

I think your cure is a little worse than the disease.

[pritch]

Unlike this current supporating sore,

Can it be you really meant "suppurating"? :whistle:

[Hitcher]

I think your cure is a little worse than the disease.

Please feel free to suggest a workable alternative.

[Hitcher]

Can it be you really meant "suppurating"?

Gahh! Thud.

[Lias]

Minto is a twat, always was a twat, always will be a twat. :shifty: John.

Well said


There is a solution to this: destroy completely the state of Israel and disputed neighbouring territories. Unlike this current supporating sore, a nuclear wasteland will eventually heal itself. Start by obliterating the city of Jerusalem to prove that the world is serious.

If over-indulged children can't share the toys, take the toys away. Parenting 101.

Gets my vote.

[Owl]

Maha for PM!

You tell em dude!:msn-wink:

[imdying]

There is a solution to this: destroy completely the state of Israel and disputed neighbouring territories. Unlike this current supporating sore, a nuclear wasteland will eventually heal itself. Start by obliterating the city of Jerusalem to prove that the world is serious.

If over-indulged children can't share the toys, take the toys away. Parenting 101.

Well I'll be... Hitcher wants to turn all the sand niggers into glass... top idea man!

Only question is, do we stop before or after India, Pakistan, etc etc, they're roughly neighbouring :whistle:

/edit: Oscar makes a good point... other than by birth, is she actually officially representing Israel?

[ManDownUnder]

There is a solution to this: destroy completely the state of Israel and disputed neighbouring territories. Unlike this current supporating sore, a nuclear wasteland will eventually heal itself. Start by obliterating the city of Jerusalem to prove that the world is serious.

If over-indulged children can't share the toys, take the toys away. Parenting 101.

But it's the Holy land!

I wonder if that's meant to be holey land...

or perhaps "Holy!" - as in HOLY FUCK WHAT'S THAT MUSHROOM CLOUD?

[Fatjim]

Minto has no right to harass an individual going about her trade.
Maybe if she was part of a National Team...


As for the rest, it's a genuine "no win" argument.

Now that the Superpowers have stopped using the region as a pissing competition area, it is full of confusion.

Israel is overreacting to a problem that it had a hand in creating, slowly choking the life of Gaza and then pretending to be surprised when trouble erupted.

Hamas are playing the victim, but essentially using their own people as human shields for their fighters. The people were crazy to elect Hamas, but several generations of economic oppression, occupation and violence will do that to you.

The problem with discussing this problem is perspective.

You have to go back to at least Balfour to really get a handle on this problem, but most people only go back to 9/11, or 1948 at best. GO back a century, at that point you can see how the bad guys become our friends and the oppressed become the oppressors.

For example - King David Hotel - Jewish Terrorists including one future Israeli PM murder innocent civilians. Or how 'bout how the Israeli Army stood by and let Christian Druze Militia kill refugees in Lebanon? In the meantime Hamas and other Arab terrorist randomly lob rockets into Israel and horrorify the Western sensibilities with suicide weapons.

If you think you can see a good guy in this mess, think again. The only certainty about the Middle East is that everyone has blood on their hands...

Only going back a 100 years is a bit shallow.

[Hitcher]

But it's the Holy land!

That phrase is emotive clap trap designed to support people behaving badly towards others. It reeks of priviledge, prejudice and propaganda. This chunk of our planet is no different to any other. I am sure high explosive works just as effectively there at demolishing man-made structures as anywhere else.

The reason I favour a nuclear destructive option is to act as a deterent for people wishing to going back there.

[enigma51]

That phrase is emotive clap trap designed to support people behaving badly towards others. It reeks of priviledge, prejudice and propaganda. This chunk of our planet is no different to any other. I am sure high explosive works just as effectively there at demolishing man-made structures as anywhere else.

The reason I favour a nuclear destructive option is to act as a deterent for people wishing to going back there.
:shit:


a lighting bolt is going to strike you down

[Hitcher]

a lighting bolt is going to strike you down

Another reason not to follow too closely behind Buells?

[oldrider]

Israel can't end this war by stopping shooting, only Hamas can.

Israel can end the war by keeping shooting, approx 25000 Hamas to go.

And if you don't want a man in a turban insisting that you get a turban just like his, then lets hope Israel do a good job of it.

Hamas have the first goal of the destruction of Israel. Their second goal is the destruction of everything else.

Who, amongst these warmongering factions, stand for the same beliefs of "freedom" as we in New Zealand do?

If Hamas become the victors in this conflict, will that strengthen our position? (IMHO) "NO".

If Israel are the victors and remain free in "*their?" land, will that benifit us here in New Zealand? (IMHO) "YES". (Hobson's choice)

* I do not actually believe the State of Israel should ever have been created but it has and now it should remain a "free" state.

That is realy food for another thread, this one is about "Minto"!

As I declared earlier, (IMHO) Minto is a (selective) twat! John.

[Oscar]

Only going back a 100 years is a bit shallow.

It's beyond most people's comprehension - the majority of 'Mericans takes the long term and shallow view i.e. Israel is in the Old Testament and the Towelheads were responsible for 9/11, therefore Israel mu8st be the good guys.

[Maha]

Minto's just a professional protester. He sees a cause, organises signs, people, and a venue - and goes at it.

His principle tactic is to raise attention to things by annoying people that (quite often) don't deserve it. I think it's fair he shouold be annoyed back, regularly...

I agree Ned, the thread is about Minto, seems to be alot of Religous Raving going on.


So? Reading all of your post, I cannot see one single reference to how this young female tennis player has contributed to any of the situation in Israel/Palistine.

Can anyone please explain why Minto is picking on a young female who wasn't even born when most of the issues being raised by the pro Palestine posters on here even occured?

Exactly my point Jantar, she also paid her own way to come down here and play, only to be greeted with Steptoe's double chanting on about shit that no doubt concerns her but she has no political agenda what so ever, shs's a tennis player.

Maha for PM!

You tell em dude!:msn-wink:

Well thats one vote...:Punk:



Can I point out that the original post was regarding protestors having a go at a tennis player. Therefore discussion of the conflict in Gaza is off topic. It is related but not relevant. Separate thread seems appropriate.

For me, the ultimate irony in all this was the protestor's placard shown in this morning's herald which said something to the effect of "bullying is not OK".
How else would you define a bunch like this having a go at a 22 year old female?


Thanks Neil, all the war analizing and biblical learning is kinda weird.

PS: Like the tags...even a Maconroe Quote

[roogazza]

Some of the elderly here may remember 81 and twat minto ?
The PR24 was affectionately renamed "The Minto bar" !!!! Gaz.

[Maha]

Some of the elderly here may remember 81 and twat minto ?
The PR24 was affectionately renamed "The Minto bar" !!!! Gaz.

He did have alot of support in 81'....(I was not one of them) but he more haters. He has lost whatever edge/mana he once had, his protest yesterday had about as much omph as the annual Woodville RSA Bowls Tournament....:Oops:

[Manxman]

Funny how he didn't let out a squeak while the elected government of Palestine was firing unguided, indiscriminate Russian & Iranian rockets into the nation of Israel for the past 7 years.

Concur.

Palestine fires into Israel for many moons (and, incidentally, during a 'ceasefire'), but as soon as Israel finally lose patience (after the 'ceasefire') and retaliates by kicking some serious arse, the protagonist cries foul. Mmmmmm.

Civilian casualties are largely being caused by Palestinian cowards (who don't wear uniforms to identify themselves) hiding among the general population. That's asymmetric warfare for ya - just how do you identify the bad guys these days?

I'm surprised Israel didn't act sooner...

[Maha]

I support this guy Minto whoever he is. That Israeli tennis player is not hot enough.

Now, Sharapova....ahem...we demand more of that kind.

Dont get them started on the 'Cold War' Marmoot. :crybaby:

[Winston001]

Some Middle Eastern Country's have hated each other for hundreds of years, and it will continue to be that way for years to come, we as a peaceful Nation should embrace any visitor, not protest against them.

No offence Maha because most people believe that - but its utter rubbish. The Jewish people are Semitic as are the Arab peoples. They are brothers. Islamic Arabs honour the Jewish prophets and simply believe that Mahmoud is the most recent and gave the really good oil. The Jews disagree but they have all got along pretty well despite that.

The Middle East is composed of tribes which warred against each other. Have a look at the history of Europe and show me any difference. Take a look at the Balkans today.

[SARGE]

What about if we protest against the protests!!

hea .. been thinkin bout heading down to the Green Party HQ in Kingsland with a bad attitude and a duffle bag fulla shoes myself .. ..


filthy hippies...

[Winston001]

Nice try, James, however....

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/balfour.htm

Which is indisputably the beginning of this Middle East calamity.

"During the First World War, British policy gravitated towards the creation of a Jewish home in Palestine. This was encouraged, in part, by a wish to motivate Jews in Russia towards the continuation of the Russian war effort, at that time endangered by engulfing revolution.........

The Balfour declaration:

" His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."



"Indisputably" huh? You have much to learn Grasshopper.

There's no argument that the Balfour Declaration was crucial for setting in train the political will for the creation of Israel. However to bring Churchill and Stalin into the mix as being the progenitors of todays bombings and death is just wrong. I mean, why not blame the Ottomans, or the great warrior Saladin, or Richard the Second, or Tamerlane, or ultimately - the Romans (bloody Romanes Eunt Domus). They all had their hands in Palestine at one time or another.

The Israel we see today has it's genesis in the rise of Zionism in the 1870s. Jewish people raised money and went to Palestine where they bought desert land from Palestinian Arabs. Those guys were happy to sell to fools with money.

This quiet and entirely lawful process continued for decades. Then after WWII a deluge of Jewish refugees from Europe fled there as being the one place on Earth they might be safe.

Just a final note - 19.4% of Israelis are Arab, and 4% Christian/Druze/Armenian etc. As for the Jewish people, 43% are secular = non-religious. So don't think this is a religious stoush.

[Winston001]

hea .. been thinkin bout heading down to the Green Party HQ in Kingsland with a bad attitude and a duffle bag fulla shoes myself .. ..


filthy hippies...

Ah Sarge, hoped you'd show up and put matters in perspective regarding the Christian Phalangalists in 1982. On the other hand, you might just say "sod it". :D All hail the Jarheads. :done:

[slowpoke]

In 1948 the brand new state of Israel was attacked by the Arab armies who had 3 million soldiers at their command. Britain watched. America was too distant to help. Somehow - they had their backs to the wall and nothing to lose - the Israelis eventually won.

Referring to your underdog comments, this in itself is a bit misleading when we think of Israel during the 6 Day War: Israel was well prepared for attack and was not itself attacked until it launched a massive pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian air force (Operation Moked) which guaranteed Israel had air superiority for the ensuing war. This air superiority is what allowed them to capture the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsular and Golan Heights which affects the geo-political climate to this day.

If the Palestinian cause was so just and simple, do you really imagine their semitic brothers wouldn't intervene? Not with guns but with money. 1% of the GDP of Saudi Arabia would solve the Palestinian woes for all time.

But it ain't gonna happen.

How would money help? By allowing the Israeli's to knock over a better standard of house? By allowing the Palestinians to buy back the land they already own but have been displaced from? (tui ad) By building hospitals for the wounded that Israeli's won't let past checkpoints? I don't follow your logic on that one....

[SixPackBack]

Fuck the Palestinians....unless they sort out their criminal organisations like Hamas they will continue to be treated the same way.

[Street Gerbil]

If the Palestinian cause was so just and simple, do you really imagine their semitic brothers wouldn't intervene? Not with guns but with money. 1% of the GDP of Saudi Arabia would solve the Palestinian woes for all time.

Nah, not all of them. Only those woes related to insufficient supply of explosives and limited range and precision of their missiles. You can't possibly be so naive as to think that with a typical palestinian leadership, be it Fatah or Hamas (hint: Arafat died a multimillionaire), a slightest trickle out of truckloads of money supplied by UN, liberal western states (i.e. your tax money) and various NGOs has a chance of reaching ordinary palestinians? Nah, they need to be kept miserable, because if palestinians are better off, they may accidentally forget why they all have to die while waging Jihad against Jews. Unacceptable. Which is precisely why since 1967 their brethren who would love to see the Jewish state destroyed but do not have the teeth, only help them with hot air rhetoric.

[Winston001]

How would money help? By allowing the Israeli's to knock over a better standard of house? By allowing the Palestinians to buy back the land they already own but have been displaced from? (tui ad) By building hospitals for the wounded that Israeli's won't let past checkpoints? I don't follow your logic on that one....

Well...yes. Buying back the land their Palestinian ancestors sold - just as the Zionists bought it in the first place.

Israel isn't going away. Just like we European settlers aren't going to leave NZ. So just as Maori have, the Palestinians need to adapt. Harsh maybe but reality.

As for the occupied/confiscated land - that came about as spoils of war plain and simple. In 1948 when the Arab armies sought to push the Jews into the sea, they told the Palestinians to move off their land to get out of the way of the war. The Palestinians were promised they could return afterwards and seize the loot.

Unfortunately against all odds, the Israelis won. And took the land. Seems like a fair swop to me - the land was paid for in blood.

That left hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, and Libya.

Interestingly the media ignore the 1.3 million Arabs actually living peacefully within Israel. Many do not support the Palestinian cause.

And I get rather tired of the King David Hotel and Deir Yassin incidents being trotted out. In both cases warnings were given. But leave that aside, the suicide bombings and countless atrocities committed by Arabs against Israeli and Western targets more than balances the scales. Ask Sarge about the 220 dead Marines in Beirut.

[Winston001]

Nah, not all of them. Only those woes related to insufficient supply of explosives and limited range and precision of their missiles. You can't possibly be so naive as to think that with a typical palestinian leadership, be it Fatah or Hamas (hint: Arafat died a multimillionaire), a slightest trickle out of truckloads of money supplied by UN, liberal western states (i.e. your tax money) and various NGOs has a chance of reaching ordinary palestinians? Nah, they need to be kept miserable, because if palestinians are better off, they may accidentally forget why they all have to die while waging Jihad against Jews. Unacceptable. Which is precisely why since 1967 their brethren who would love to see the Jewish state destroyed but do not have the teeth, only help them with hot air rhetoric.

Sadly I have to agree - but it would be interesting to try. What Palestinians need is to replace hatred with hope. Money doesn't heal all wounds but if your family are well-fed and safe, and you have a secure job, then it's hard to stay angry.

Ironically the Palestinians are outbreeding the Israelis which means Israel must somehow accommodate their demands or else face being swamped.

[The Stranger]

The current exchange rate appears to be about 70 Palestinians to the Israeli (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm).

What should it be?

[Oscar]

The Third Riech isn't going away. Just like we European settlers aren't going to leave NZ. So just as Maori have, the Poles need to adapt. Harsh maybe but reality.

As for the occupied/confiscated land - that came about as spoils of war plain and simple. In 1918 when the Allied armies sought to push the Volk into oblivion, they told the Germans to move off their land to get out of the way of the war. The Germans were promised they could return afterwards and live peacefully under foreign rule.

Unfortunately against all odds, Germany has risen again. And took the land. Seems like a fair swop to me - the land was paid for in blood.

That left hundreds of thousands of Polish, Jews and Untermensh living in refugee camps in The General Government area.

Interestingly the media ignore the millions of Vichy French actually living peacefully with Germany. Many do not support the Allied cause.

.

Winning a war is in itself not a valid moral excuse for what happens next...

[Oscar]

Sadly I have to agree - but it would be interesting to try. What Palestinians need is to replace hatred with hope. Money doesn't heal all wounds but if your family are well-fed and safe, and you have a secure job, then it's hard to stay angry.

Ironically the Palestinians are outbreeding the Israelis which means Israel must somehow accommodate their demands or else face being swamped.

Why do you not mention the economic blockade of Gaza by Israel?
Explain how that is helping the peace effort.

[Street Gerbil]

Ironically the Palestinians are outbreeding the Israelis which means Israel must somehow accommodate their demands or else face being swamped.

I believe you are confusing palestinians i.e. citizens of Palestinian Autonomy with Israeli Arabs i.e. citizens of Israel of Arab descent. The latter are not stupid enough to wish Israel's demise. They know all too well (and would often admit it in a private conversation, when they are sure they cannot be overheard or had one too many) they are better off living under the oppressive yoke of the Zionist regime than under freedoms of palestinian freedom and self-determination.

[Winston001]

I believe you are confusing palestinians i.e. citizens of Palestinian Autonomy with Israeli Arabs i.e. citizens of Israel of Arab descent. The latter are not stupid enough to wish Israel's demise. They know all too well (and would often admit it in a private conversation, when they are sure they cannot be overheard or had one too many) they are better off living under the oppressive yoke of the Zionist regime than under freedoms of palestinian freedom and self-determination.

Actually I meant both although the Israeli Arabs birth rate isn't as fast as the Palestinians. Both are higher rates than the Jewish population.

[Pussy]

Don't forget though, folks

Minto is a TWAT

[Winston001]

Why do you not mention the economic blockade of Gaza by Israel?
Explain how that is helping the peace effort.

Oscar, you are a naughty lad trying to use Imperial Germany as a metaphor for Israel. There is simply no rational comparison. Germany both in 1914 and in 1939 was the aggressor and attacked the rest of Europe. By contrast Israel has experienced continuous attacks against its borders.

Israel as you well know has been and is defending it's very existence. While rockets and bombs continue to come out of Gaza, while the government of Gaza continues to have a stated policy of aggression against Israel, then the embargo will continue. Lay down arms, talk peacefully, and things will change.

[SARGE]

look.. heres the way i see it ...



Hamas is launching rockets into Israel.. have been for a while now..they are also hiding amongst civilian populations and using schools, hospitals and mosques as shelter


this is the same tactic that Al queda, Hezbollah, etc have been using forever..

then when they start getting fire.. the liberal media starts lapping it up and calling the ones cranking rounds downrange "war criminals" (ratings!!!)

fact is .. if the civilian populace would turn thier backs on the insurgents and start pointing fingers in the direction of the insurgents and clearing out long enough to sweep aand clear then the fighting would be over quickly

i have no respect for a supposed "soldier" who rely's on human shields..then cries when they get blown to shit..


cowards


far as im concerned.. Israel should hit them harder and make sure the fight aint worth it for the enemy

[SARGE]

Ask Sarge about the 220 dead Marines in Beirut.

241 bro...

[Pixie]

hea .. been thinkin bout heading down to the Green Party HQ in Kingsland with a bad attitude and a duffle bag fulla shoes myself .. ..


filthy hippies...

Giving shoes to hippies won't do any good - they don't wear them.

You could shove them up their arses though.

[slowpoke]

look.. heres the way i see it ...



Hamas is launching rockets into Israel.. have been for a while now..they are also hiding amongst civilian populations and using schools, hospitals and mosques as shelter


this is the same tactic that Al queda, Hezbollah, etc have been using forever..

then when they start getting fire.. the liberal media starts lapping it up and calling the ones cranking rounds downrange "war criminals" (ratings!!!)

fact is .. if the civilian populace would turn thier backs on the insurgents and start pointing fingers in the direction of the insurgents and clearing out long enough to sweep aand clear then the fighting would be over quickly

i have no respect for a supposed "soldier" who rely's on human shields..then cries when they get blown to shit..


cowards


far as im concerned.. Israel should hit them harder and make sure the fight aint worth it for the enemy

OK Sarge, say we wake up tomorrow morning and find that, I dunno, say Indonesia, have invaded and overrun NZ.
Are you just gonna roll over and make peace, and start waving the Indonesian flag?
Are you gonna fight back?
If you do are you gonna form nice orderly groups of uniformed men/women for the invaders to easily mop up? Army intelligence may be an oxy moron but even they wouldn't be that stupid

But lets get one thing straight:

Israel have illegally occupied Gaza and under international law an occupied peole have the right to use arms against their occupiers.

Another thing, this is not a war and certainly not a war of opposing armies. This is one of the poorest and opressed civilian populations on earth resisting the fourth largest military power in the world.

Israel have done everything within their power to destroy any and all Palestinian leadership be it democratically elected or not, creating a truncated, powerless, violent society ruled by militias, gangs, ethnic and religious extremists. The resulting carnage justifies their actions and enables their ultimate aim of destryoing any hope of a separate Palestinian state.

[Jantar]

...Israel have illegally occupied Gaza and under international law an occupied peole have the right to use arms against their occupiers......

Wrong. According to http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/gaza_settlements.html
Jews were present in Gaza until 1929, when they were forced to leave the area due to violent riots against them by the Arabs. Following these riots, and the death of nearly 135 Jews in all, the British prohibited Jews from living in Gaza to quell tension and appease the Arabs.

Israel retook Gaza during the 1967 six days war, when Israel was attacked by a number of arab states. It was the Arabs who were the agressors, not the Israelites.

But you still haven't explained what all this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

[Winston001]

OK Sarge, say we wake up tomorrow morning and find that, I dunno, say Indonesia, have invaded and overrun NZ.
Are you just gonna roll over and make peace, and start waving the Indonesian flag?
Are you gonna fight back?
If you do are you gonna form nice orderly groups of uniformed men/women for the invaders to easily mop up? Army intelligence may be an oxy moron but even they wouldn't be that stupid



Of course we'd fight back. But the only invasion of Israel and the Palestinian Territories has been by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. They were fought off and they lost.

A better comparison would be an invasion of NZ by Fiji assisted by Maori separatists, to free Maori from the Europeans. Assuming we won, I don't think we'd reward Maori separatists........


.........a truncated, powerless, violent society ruled by militias, gangs, ethnic and religious extremists.....Do you see a theme here? Sounds like Sudan, Pakistan and Iraq. And much of Africa. Indeed the Middle East conflict is minor compared to the millions of people who live in daily mortal fear in Africa.

[slowpoke]

Wrong. According to http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/gaza_settlements.html

Riiiiiiight, and the "American-Jewish Co-operative Enterprise" (I shit you not) who run that site are completely unbiased....Tui ad if ever there was one.

How's about the BBC as a more reputable source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7795139.stm
"Israeli settlements on occupied territory are seen as illegal by the rest of the world. But now an Israeli human rights group is saying that even under Israeli law, one of the most significant and well-established settlements is unlawful."

But you still haven't explained what all this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

Call me old fashioned but I'll examine the messengers message before I'll shoot him. He could call up a 'paper/tv and try to get some air time with probably no success or he can use her to put the message up in lights which has succeeded reasonably well from the sounds of it.


Of course we'd fight back. But the only invasion of Israel and the Palestinian Territories has been by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. They were fought off and they lost.

Israel launched the first strike in that war, and decided to help themselves to Gaza at the end of it. But why continue to punish the people of Gaza? Why continue to forcibly remove Palestinians from their homes, or destroy their homes so illegal Jewish settlements can be created right to this day? Why cut off humanitarian aid? Why cut off power, water and basic health services? These things are happening NOW and are unjustifiable.

A better comparison would be an invasion of NZ by Fiji assisted by Maori separatists, to free Maori from the Europeans. Assuming we won, I don't think we'd reward Maori separatists........

I don't quite follow your logic on this one. My example was just a response to Sarge's rhetoric against the tactics of the Palestinians. Apparently the horrendously outnumbered and poorly equipped Palestinians (mostly individuals and loose groups, hardly an army) are supposed to pull on uniforms and march off to duke it out face to face with rocks and mostly handweapons against the 4th largest military power in the world with it's tanks, airforce and nuclear arsenal.

Do you see a theme here? Sounds like Sudan, Pakistan and Iraq. And much of Africa. Indeed the Middle East conflict is minor compared to the millions of people who live in daily mortal fear in Africa.

Minor it may be but it still stinks. I just find it sad that most people couldn't give a toss or can't be bothered doing the most basic reasearch before arriving at a judgement. People are all to eager to make snap judgements based on something that has happened without asking the basic question of why it has happened.

[Oscar]

Oscar, you are a naughty lad trying to use Imperial Germany as a metaphor for Israel. There is simply no rational comparison. Germany both in 1914 and in 1939 was the aggressor and attacked the rest of Europe. By contrast Israel has experienced continuous attacks against its borders.

Israel as you well know has been and is defending it's very existence. While rockets and bombs continue to come out of Gaza, while the government of Gaza continues to have a stated policy of aggression against Israel, then the embargo will continue. Lay down arms, talk peacefully, and things will change.

There are quite a few parallels actually.
In 1938 Germany moved against borders mandated in 1919 by an International Agreement. Israel is doing the same thing (actually occupying land against the tenets of the agreement that allow the creation of the state).

At this point the "provocation" that it's using to launch its attack on Gaza is so far in to "chicken and egg" territory it's just not funny. Sure, Hamas is firing missiles into Israel, but is that because of the economic blockade imposed by Israel, which maybe down to the suicide bombings by Hamas, which may in turn may have been a reaction to the Israeli occupation /settlement of Palestinian lands or Jerusalem....

The only truth in this argument is that there is precious little truth to go around, and that anyone who tries to argue the rights or one side against the other is a zealot or a fool (most likely both).

[firefighter]

Oscar, you are a naughty lad trying to use Imperial Germany as a metaphor for Israel. There is simply no rational comparison. Germany both in 1914 and in 1939 was the aggressor and attacked the rest of Europe. By contrast Israel has experienced continuous attacks against its borders.

Israel as you well know has been and is defending it's very existence. While rockets and bombs continue to come out of Gaza, while the government of Gaza continues to have a stated policy of aggression against Israel, then the embargo will continue. Lay down arms, talk peacefully, and things will change.

I agree, this is no comparison that should be made, millions of jews being incinerated is not even nearly what's happening here. This thread is wildly off topic anyway.

I feel so sorry for that Israeli girl, and as a New Zealander I am hugely embarrassed, fucken idiot NZ'rs pretending their voice really makes any kind of impact on an international scale- what a joke, protesting the Iraq war, spray painting an Australian Naval Frigate, the fucken bloody maori NGAPUHI tribe punks spray painting the Australian C-17 by breaking into the RNZAF base in auckland and writing babyish tag on it, this latest tennis bollocks- iv'e actually heard of Naval personnel being attacked by protesters in the city (WHAT THE FUCK! DID THEY FORGET THE NZDF IS INVOVLED IN PEACE KEEPING AND RE-BUILDING DAMAGED AREAS TO HELP THE PEOPLE?)
I think we are actually becoming quite a disgusting race of people personally- I get to see it at street level whilst i'm out doing my job- first hand, and I feel bloody sorry for the cops I tell you that much, we should be looking inside our own back-yard before we peer over the fence and abuse the neighbours, if you disagree please let me know- but please make sure your actively invovled in the community and see it first hand before you get high and mighty.

This Minto prick- well I hope something really painfull and disgusting happens to him, he's an absolute ass and needs to stop ruining what could be a nice country with bollocks like this, I would have been exceedingly pissed off had I paid to see that tennis match and had to listen to that shit- in fact I think someone should find out all of his important events in his life starting with his b'day/anniversaries etc and we can follow HIm around and protest his existance- just absolutely ruin his existance until he either shuts up or fucks off into hiding somewhere.

What a rant.I must be tired!

[spudchucka]

look.. heres the way i see it ...



Hamas is launching rockets into Israel.. have been for a while now..they are also hiding amongst civilian populations and using schools, hospitals and mosques as shelter


this is the same tactic that Al queda, Hezbollah, etc have been using forever..

then when they start getting fire.. the liberal media starts lapping it up and calling the ones cranking rounds downrange "war criminals" (ratings!!!)

fact is .. if the civilian populace would turn thier backs on the insurgents and start pointing fingers in the direction of the insurgents and clearing out long enough to sweep aand clear then the fighting would be over quickly

i have no respect for a supposed "soldier" who rely's on human shields..then cries when they get blown to shit..


cowards


far as im concerned.. Israel should hit them harder and make sure the fight aint worth it for the enemy

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction to their rocket attacks was going to be but they persisted with them anyway. Then once Israel does respond they can't wait to show the misery Israel is inflicting on their people and the images of killed and maimed Palestinian women and kids is flashed on TV screens all around the world.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that Hamas have deliberately provoked Israel into the current offensive attacks into Gaza and therefore, knowing full well what the consequences of firing rockets into Israel was going to be, they are willingly sacrificing their own people in order to achieve some misguided political gain over Israel.

Although the response by Israel seems to be totally out of proportion I don't blame them one bit for taking the stance they have. Minto and has mates should be protesting against the Palestinian / Hamas political stance of sacrificing their own innocent civilian populations as a means of globally discrediting Israel.

[ManDownUnder]

I've seen Minto head protests against the rugby world tour, pay rates at one of the companies in the building, Israel's operations of late... what else has he been involved with?

The dude's just a fucken busy body... No problems with people that stand up for a cause - but what would drive a man to stand up for every cause? It's an ego trip.

*ding* next!

[Winston001]

Call me old fashioned but I'll examine the messengers message before I'll shoot him. He could call up a 'paper/tv and try to get some air time with probably no success or he can use her to put the message up in lights which has succeeded reasonably well from the sounds of it.



Minor it may be but it still stinks. I just find it sad that most people couldn't give a toss or can't be bothered doing the most basic research before arriving at a judgement. People are all to eager to make snap judgements based on something that has happened without asking the basic question of why it has happened.

We agree on Minto. It's a legitimate protest and draws attention to the Palestinian issue. That is how effective protests work - get into a media event and get your voice heard. The tennis player is merely the excuse. It's the price we pay for having an open democracy. I do think Minto is ego driven.

As for people not giving a toss, if you look through this thread you'll see distress expressed about the suffering in Gaza. Not from everyone of course, there are plenty of us who think the Israelis have suffered plenty of distress of their own - but for some reason the liberal media overlook that. A blown-up Israeli family just isn't newsworthy.

As for research, there are plenty of intelligent people here who don't make snap judgements. However if their views are different from your own, then it can be natural to dismiss them instead of listening.

I assume you are focused on the 1967 Six Day War when you refer to taking Gaza. Israel launched the first attack. How dare they!! :mad: The reason was that Egypt expelled the UN peacekeeping force from the Sinai. Egypt then stationed 1000 tanks and nearly 100,000 soldiers on the Israeli border. Egypt also closed the Straits of Tiran to any Israeli shipping.

Oddly enough these innocent actions made the Israelis feel uneasy. To balance things they took out the Egyptian air force. Jordan then attacked Israel and it was all on. Another loser for the Arab nations.

Please also remember that Israel later gave back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt when, if they'd been the rabid aggressors portrayed by some commentators, they'd have annexed it.

[Winston001]

There are quite a few parallels actually.
In 1938 Germany moved against borders mandated in 1919 by an International Agreement. Israel is doing the same thing (actually occupying land against the tenets of the agreement that allow the creation of the state).

Sorry Oscar, understand your point, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany just doesn't fly. For example, after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel held the Sinai, enough land to enlarge Israel by 3 times. Yep, the Sinai is 3 times the size of Israel. Talk about Lebensraum!!

Instead they gave it back to Egypt. Ultimately this produced a lasting peace.



The only truth in this argument is that there is precious little truth to go around, and that anyone who tries to argue the rights or one side against the other is a zealot or a fool (most likely both).

Not at all. Just because a subject is difficult doesn't mean we should ignore it. Discussing the Palestinian issue encourages us to read other points of view. It also draws out members with personal knowledge such as Sarge and Street Gerbil. Terbang has interesting experiences too.

Don't dismiss others as zealots or fools simply because you disagree with them.

[Oscar]

Sorry Oscar, understand your point, but comparing Israel to Nazi Germany just doesn't fly. For example, after the 1967 Six Day War, Israel held the Sinai, enough land to enlarge Israel by 3 times. Yep, the Sinai is 3 times the size of Israel. Talk about Lebensraum!!

Instead they gave it back to Egypt. Ultimately this produced a lasting peace.



I wasn't comparing Israel with Germany. I was contrasting your explanation of what Israel is doing with Nazi Germany. The point being, that given enough time/bullshit/whatever you can justify most anything.



Not at all. Just because a subject is difficult doesn't mean we should ignore it. Discussing the Palestinian issue encourages us to read other points of view. It also draws out members with personal knowledge such as Sarge and Street Gerbil. Terbang has interesting experiences too.

Don't dismiss others as zealots or fools simply because you disagree with them.

Read my comment again.
I didn't say that you were a zealot or a fool because the subject is difficult or because I disagree with your viewpoint. I said only a zealot or a fool would try to argue one side wholly right and the other wrong, given the history of the region.

[Winston001]

I

Read my comment again.
I didn't say that you were a zealot or a fool because the subject is difficult or because I disagree with your viewpoint. I said only a zealot or a fool would try to argue one side wholly right and the other wrong, given the history of the region.

Yeah no worries, I didn't take it personally.

Just to show the other side, the Arabs in Palestine started protesting against the Ottomans in 1880 because they were allowing land sales to Jewish immigrants. Not all Arabs accepted or liked the land sales.

Under the British Mandate, the Zionist immigrants had political representation - the Arabs none.

Jewish settlers had the external support of organisations in the US - the Palestinians had none. This was in the days before the Arab nations discovered the power of oil.

Palestinians were forceably removed from the West Bank in 1948 after a secret deal between the new Israel and Jordan whereby Jordan took over the West Bank.

The Palestinians have been cynically used as pawns by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria for decades. Now that these countries are at peace (uneasily in the case of Syria) with Israel, they have lost interest in their brothers plight.

If I was 20yrs old, lived in crowded poor conditions, no job, and grew up being told it was the fault of the Jewish enemy over the wall, I'd be pretty pissed off.

[Oscar]

Yeah no worries, I didn't take it personally.

Just to show the other side, the Arabs in Palestine started protesting against the Ottomans in 1880 because they were allowing land sales to Jewish immigrants. Not all Arabs accepted or liked the land sales.

Under the British Mandate, the Zionist immigrants had political representation - the Arabs none.

Jewish settlers had the external support of organisations in the US - the Palestinians had none. This was in the days before the Arab nations discovered the power of oil.

Palestinians were forceably removed from the West Bank in 1948 after a secret deal between the new Israel and Jordan whereby Jordan took over the West Bank.

The Palestinians have been cynically used as pawns by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria for decades. Now that these countries are at peace (uneasily in the case of Syria) with Israel, they have lost interest in their brothers plight.

If I was 20yrs old, lived in crowded poor conditions, no job, and grew up being told it was the fault of the Jewish enemy over the wall, I'd be pretty pissed off.

I used to think the Israelis were heroic (and in the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars they damn well were), in fighting the corrupt Soviet backed tyrants of the region, but lately I just can't see much difference between the sides.

Suicide Bombing = Morally bankrupt.
Hellfire Missiles into public areas = Morally bankrupt

A pox on both your houses, and just for good measure, a pox on Minto as well. The women is a Professional tennis player, not a representative of her country - leave her to ply her trade.

[Swoop]

Hamas knew what the Israeli reaction to their rocket attacks was going to be but they persisted with them anyway. Then once Israel does respond they can't wait to show the misery Israel is inflicting on their people and the images of killed and maimed Palestinian women and kids is flashed on TV screens all around the world.
The only people who have been fooled are those who have listened to/ watched the media who have been mis-led by the terrorists.
Hamas is doing well to drag the media around and show them the injured...

I've seen Minto head protests against the rugby world tour, pay rates at one of the companies in the building, Israel's operations of late... what else has he been involved with?

The dude's just a fucken busy body..
Who was it that was commenting about "professional Protestors" earlier in this thread? Nicely put MDU.

Please also remember that Israel later gave back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt when, if they'd been the rabid aggressors portrayed by some commentators, they'd have annexed it.
The Egyptians were very lucky. They could have easily lost the entire Suez canal!

Hellfire Missiles into public areas = Morally bankrupt
A Hellfire is a guided missile, unlike those fired from Gaza. The terrorists on the receiving end can choose not to be in the viewfinder if they so wish.

[Oscar]

A Hellfire is a guided missile, unlike those fired from Gaza. The terrorists on the receiving end can choose not to be in the viewfinder if they so wish.


There is a documented case of a hellfire hitting a Palestinian Ambulance.
This means either the missile is not so accurate or the IDF is targeting Ambulances, what do you reckon?

Notwithstanding that I was using the hellfire as an example of indiscriminate IDF fire. How else do you explain the 200+ dead children in the past week or so?

[Oscar]

The only people who have been fooled are those who have listened to/ watched the media who have been mis-led by the terrorists.
Hamas is doing well to drag the media around and show them the injured...



So are you saying that those dead and injured are faking it?
Hamas killed them?
They died of natural causes?
What?

[Swoop]

There is a documented case of a hellfire hitting a Palestinian Ambulance.
This means either the missile is not so accurate or the IDF is targeting Ambulances, what do you reckon?
Who knows. The Hellfire goes where it is guided.
Perhaps the hamas terrorists are using ambulances to transport weapons around? A bit like the Argentinians storing weapons in a building that had a big red cross painted on the roof...

So are you saying that those dead and injured are faking it?
Hamas killed them?
They died of natural causes?
What?
That the terrorists are doing a fine job of dragging the media around to show them exactly what they want the media to see...

[Oscar]

Who knows. The Hellfire goes where it is guided.
Perhaps the hamas terrorists are using ambulances to transport weapons around? A bit like the Argentinians storing weapons in a building that had a big red cross painted on the roof...


Then I don't see your point. Hamas kills children with unguided missiles, the IDF kills children (albeit it much more efficiently) with guided ones.



That the terrorists are doing a fine job of dragging the media around to show them exactly what they want the media to see...

Is there summat that they don't want the media to see?
Perhaps the media are interested in what they're being shown.
The UN certainly is.

Medics in Gaza say latest casualties include at least 60 people affected by suspected phosphorus shells fired illegally near civilian areas.


Israeli defence officials are now saying one of the deadliest recent incidents in Gaza, when a UN school was bombed, was caused by a stray mortar.

The attack killed about 40 Palestinian civilians sheltering at the Fakhura school in Jabaliya on Tuesday.


Separately, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said an alleged failure of the Israeli military to help wounded civilians in Gaza could constitute a war crime.

All quotes from the BBC.

Again, I would stress here that I'm not backing either side, a pox on them both. I just find it strange that some of us would back the side that is most efficient at killing the innocent.

[Swoop]

So are you saying that those dead and injured are faking it?
Hamas killed them?
They died of natural causes?
What?
When we regard the media...

Let's compare what they are saying about another popular excursion into the outback and what is actually happening.

Lies That Work.
The Taliban had a bad year in 2008. Their losses were up, and the armed resistance by tribal militias to Taliban activities increased. The Taliban campaign against education continues to be enormously unpopular, as is the increasing number of civilians (especially children) killed by Taliban suicide and roadside bombings.

In an attempt to reverse their plunging reputation, the Taliban recently announced that they had killed 5,220 foreign troops last year (the actual number was 286). The Taliban also claimed to have shot down 31 aircraft last year (the actual number was zero). The Taliban also claimed to have destroyed 2,818 vehicles (that's about ten times the actual number) and killed 7,552 Afghan policemen and soldiers (again, about ten times the actual number.) The Taliban accused the Afghan, and foreign, governments of conducting a huge cover up by claiming much lower numbers.

To Westerners, these claims are absurd. In the West, there is a free press and free exchange of information. Hiding losses would be impossible. But to your average Afghan, a free press, and free access to information, is a rather foreign concept. So the conspiracy alleged by the Taliban has some credibility. Moreover, those who are leaning towards backing the Taliban, would be more inclined to believe the Taliban lies. The Taliban announcement was not meant to convince Westerners, but those people the Taliban already has some backing from. The Taliban want to encourage their followers and persuade those who are potential backers. So the Taliban claims make sense as an Information War tactics. Absurd data, but directed at an audience where the lies will have a positive effect.

[Oscar]

When we regard the media...

Let's compare what they are saying about another popular excursion into the outback and what is actually happening.

Lies That Work.
The Taliban had a bad year in 2008. Their losses were up, and the armed resistance by tribal militias to Taliban activities increased. The Taliban campaign against education continues to be enormously unpopular, as is the increasing number of civilians (especially children) killed by Taliban suicide and roadside bombings.

In an attempt to reverse their plunging reputation, the Taliban recently announced that they had killed 5,220 foreign troops last year (the actual number was 286). The Taliban also claimed to have shot down 31 aircraft last year (the actual number was zero). The Taliban also claimed to have destroyed 2,818 vehicles (that's about ten times the actual number) and killed 7,552 Afghan policemen and soldiers (again, about ten times the actual number.) The Taliban accused the Afghan, and foreign, governments of conducting a huge cover up by claiming much lower numbers.

To Westerners, these claims are absurd. In the West, there is a free press and free exchange of information. Hiding losses would be impossible. But to your average Afghan, a free press, and free access to information, is a rather foreign concept. So the conspiracy alleged by the Taliban has some credibility. Moreover, those who are leaning towards backing the Taliban, would be more inclined to believe the Taliban lies. The Taliban announcement was not meant to convince Westerners, but those people the Taliban already has some backing from. The Taliban want to encourage their followers and persuade those who are potential backers. So the Taliban claims make sense as an Information War tactics. Absurd data, but directed at an audience where the lies will have a positive effect.

An impressive rebuttal, but completely off the point.

The media we're discussing is the free press (the BBC in this instance).
Would you like to explain how they've been mislead?
Is Hamas lying about the 600 or so dead in Gaza?
Is the BBC lying?

Ps. Hamas is not the Taliban and Afghanistan is a long way from Gaza...

[Swoop]

Then I don't see your point. Hamas kills children with unguided missiles, the IDF kills children (albeit it much more efficiently) with guided ones.
The guided missiles are being aimed at people who "possibly" deserve them. The terrorists are quite adept at surrounding themselves with the general population.
Have you heard how many hamas terrorists ("fighters") have been killed?

Indescriminate killing via unguided rockets?
That is like the comparison between the RAF/USAAF "carpet bombing" of WW2 and laser-guided munitions of modern times.

[Swoop]

Ps. Hamas is not the Taliban and Afghanistan is a long way from Gaza...
Media manipulation.:blip:

[Oscar]

The guided missiles are being aimed at people who "possibly" deserve them. The terrorists are quite adept at surrounding themselves with the general population.
Have you heard how many hamas terrorists ("fighters") have been killed?

Indescriminate killing via unguided rockets?
That is like the comparison between the RAF/USAAF "carpet bombing" of WW2 and laser-guided munitions of modern times.

"Possibly" deserve them?
On that logic, you'd look up the entire population of South Auckland because they're "possibly" criminals.

Does that mean if yer dead body turned out to be innocent, they'd get a pardon from the IDF?
In the meantime the IDF have killed in excess of 200 children to achieve their mission.

And yes, the terrorists are quite adept at surrounding themselves with the general population BECAUSE THEY LIVE THERE. If they didn't they wouldn't be terrorists, would they? They'd be regular soldiers and last about five minutes up against the IDF.

It is proven without a doubt that both sides use unguided and indiscriminate weapons (vis. the IDF's admission about mortaring the school above). It's just that the IDF is better at it. I must find out how many terrorists have been killed, but in the meantime, what ratio of dead children / dead terrorists do you think is acceptable?

[Oscar]

Media manipulation.:blip:

You are undoubtedly manipulating something...

[Swoop]

"Possibly" deserve them?.
Yes. Thinking from a legal standpoint... If a person is seen running down a road with their RPG, they are "presumed innocent" until a court of law finds them guilty...:apint:

"And yes, the terrorists are quite adept at surrounding themselves with the general population BECAUSE THEY LIVE THERE.
"Living there" is different to standing within blast radius... or perhaps "aiding and abetting".

[Oscar]

Yes. Thinking from a legal standpoint... If a person is seen running down a road with their RPG, they are "presumed innocent" until a court of law finds them guilty...:apint:


As much as some here would like it too, a large explosion that vaporises everyone in the immediate area does not constitute "due process of the law".




"Living there" is different to standing within blast radius... or perhaps "aiding and abetting".

As I said, they live there.
When you are fighting an overwhelming military force you become a "Terrorist" or a "Freedom Fighter" (depending on whether yer on our side or not). Then you hide in plain view (beats staging your puny force against the army and getting killed by some fuck off big cannon) - that way, every time the aforementioned overwhelming military force try to kill you (and aren't damned careful) they get some innocents. This not only gets you great media attention, but lots of new recruits ("...I wanna kill those IDF bastids, coz they killed my Mum.." - in Arabic of course).

And those dumb fucking Israelis are falling right into this trap (again).

Can you imagine the British Army using artillery and guided missiles on the Falls Road? (God knows some of that IRA scum deserved it)
That is exactly what's happening here...the only thing it guarantees is that this hellish situation will fester for another coupla generations.

[Swoop]

As I said, they live there.
When you are fighting an overwhelming military force you become a "Terrorist" or a "Freedom Fighter" (depending on whether we like or not). Then you hide in plain view (beats getting killed) - that way, every time the aforementioned overwhelming military force try to kill you (and aren't damned careful) they get some innocents. This not only gets you great media attention, but lots of new recruits (I wanna kill those IDF bastids, cose they killed my Mum).

And those dumb Isrealis are falling right into this trap.

Can you imagine the British Army using artillery and guided missiles on the Falls Road? (God knows some of that IRA scum deserved it) That is exactly what's happening here...the only thing it guarantees is that this hellish situation will fester for another coupla generations.
Interesting. You have created you own circular argument.

[Oscar]

Interesting. You have created you own circular argument.

It is not a circular argument.

If you had of paid attention earlier, you would have noticed that I don't support either side.
They are both murdering innocent people in their own way for their own ends.
A pox on both of them.

The only reason that I'm not arguing with HAMAS supporters as vociferously is that there aren't any here.

My contention is that the IDF are being dumb by trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. They are playing right into the broader HAMAS / Al Queda / {insert Muslim terror group here} long term stratergy.

[enigma51]

Oscar, you are a naughty lad trying to use Imperial Germany as a metaphor for Israel. There is simply no rational comparison. Germany both in 1914 and in 1939 was the aggressor and attacked the rest of Europe.

I think you need to go and study your history again if you think germany was the aggressor

[SARGE]

OK Sarge, say we wake up tomorrow morning and find that, I dunno, say Indonesia, have invaded and overrun NZ.
Are you just gonna roll over and make peace, and start waving the Indonesian flag?
Are you gonna fight back?
If you do are you gonna form nice orderly groups of uniformed men/women for the invaders to easily mop up? Army intelligence may be an oxy moron but even they wouldn't be that stupid

But lets get one thing straight:

Israel have illegally occupied Gaza and under international law an occupied peole have the right to use arms against their occupiers.

Another thing, this is not a war and certainly not a war of opposing armies. This is one of the poorest and opressed civilian populations on earth resisting the fourth largest military power in the world.

Israel have done everything within their power to destroy any and all Palestinian leadership be it democratically elected or not, creating a truncated, powerless, violent society ruled by militias, gangs, ethnic and religious extremists. The resulting carnage justifies their actions and enables their ultimate aim of destryoing any hope of a separate Palestinian state.



ok..you do make some valid points..


but...

yes.. i would stand and fight if NZ were attacked .. (not because i love NZ or anything .. just cuz i dig a good scrap..)

one thing i would NOT do is target civillian populations like the Hamas fighters seems to love doing with the rockets into Isreal..

another thing .. i would try and make sure that i was as far away from civilian centers as possible ( targeting supply lines , C&C centers, etc).. i wouldnt hide in a church, school or other civilian structure hoping that the invaders wouldnt attack it for fear of collateral damage.

i have no fear of dying, as long as i can go out laughing.. been there a few times ( i have a heart-needle scar to prove it ... no i didnt see no stinkin light)

Hamas, Hezbolla, Al Queda, and all thier ilk are cowards.. plain and simple .. the rules of war, Geneva conventions and international law mean jack shit to them..



the thing that cracks me up in NZ is the freaks and hippies that marched down Queen Street last week, straight to the US Consulate and proceeded to throw thier shoes and blame the US for NOT getting involved..

make up your mind .. you want us in or out??

im gonna go throw a few shoes at the Green Party HQ in Kingsland this weekend .. anyone up for a short ride and a bit of free press? :whistle:

[Jantar]

...... Riiiiiiight, and the "American-Jewish Co-operative Enterprise" (I shit you not) who run that site are completely unbiased....Tui ad if ever there was one......

Ok. so you believe that link to biassed? How about Wikipedia then:
Jews were present in Gaza from antiquity until the 1929 Palestine riots, when Arabs forced the Jews to leave Gaza. After that the British prohibited Jews from living in the area, though some Jews returned and, in 1946, re-established kibbutz Kfar Darom in central Gaza which had been destroyed in the 1936-39 Arab revolt in Palestine.[7]

British rule of Palestine ended with the expiration of the British Mandate and the Israeli Declaration of Independence on May 14, 1948. ....... in May 1948, the Egyptian army invaded the area from the south, triggering the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.[5]



So lets get this straight. Jews lived there from antiquity. They were forced out in 1929, but some returned. Egypt attacked and took over gaza following the Israeli declaration of independence. Israel took it back in the six days way of 1967. Now Hamas are using Gaza to fire rockets indiscriminatly into Isreal, but because the rockets are being fired from civilian areas, Isreal is supposed to just say to Hamas "That's OK, you just go and kill as many of our civilians as you like, and we won't do anything about it"? I know which one is the bigger Tui.

And despite your bleating on about the message and the messenger, you still haven't explained what this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

[enigma51]

the thing that cracks me up in NZ is the freaks and hippies that marched down Queen Street last week, straight to the US Consulate and proceeded to throw thier shoes and blame the US for NOT getting involved..

make up your mind .. you want us in or out??


I also laughed at that

The problem with this whole thing is that the media is following what ever will make the best story. In thins case hamas is freely giving the media all the propaganda they want and israel is not. If Israel did you would see children being carried to hospital cause they got injured by the random bombs being shot into israel from hamas

[enigma51]

Ok. so you believe that link to biassed? How about Wikipedia then:

So lets get this straight. Jews lived there from antiquity. They were forced out in 1929, but some returned. Egypt attacked and took over gaza following the Israeli declaration of independence. Israel took it back in the six days way of 1967. Now Hamas are using Gaza to fire rockets indiscriminatly into Isreal, but because the rockets are being fired from civilian areas, Isreal is supposed to just say to Hamas "That's OK, you just go and kill as many of our civilians as you like, and we won't do anything about it"? I know which one is the bigger Tui.

If take it further back and read the big book the jews was living in the desert for 40 years with out a home. So what now?

[Jantar]

..... So what now?
Now? The Israelis built a wall around Gaza and told the Palestinians that if they wanted peace without Israeli interference then they could have it. They just had to live their own lives and not attack Israel. Instead Hamas decided they didn't want peace, and continued to fire rockets into Israel.

What now? They are getting what they asked for.

And still noone has explained what this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

[marty]

There is a documented case of a hellfire hitting a Palestinian Ambulance.
This means either the missile is not so accurate or the IDF is targeting Ambulances, what do you reckon?

Notwithstanding that I was using the hellfire as an example of indiscriminate IDF fire. How else do you explain the 200+ dead children in the past week or so?

the missile in the ambulance you are talking about is a documented fraud.

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

[enigma51]

And still noone has explained what this has to do with Minto and a 22 year old female tennis player.

Still nothing

[Oscar]

the missile in the ambulance you are talking about is a documented fraud.

http://www.zombietime.com/fraud/ambulance/

Not 1996, 1984 - read "the Great War for Civilisation" By Robert Fisk

It may amaze you to learn that the IDF plays the media game...


After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn't even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.

[enigma51]

Not 1996, 1984 - read "the Great War for Civilisation" By Robert Fisk

It may amaze you to learn that the IDF plays the media game...

Its called politics they all play the media game ............

[Oscar]

Its called politics they all play the media game ............

Fisk's book is worth the effort.

[Hitcher]

Fisk's book is worth the effort.

Indeed it is. But Mr Fisk isn't as impartial as the epithet "journalist" may lead some people to believe.

[Maki]

Ok, ok.... Before you say anything more about the Gaza conflict let me lay down some rules, and shame on anyone, including myself who has not followed them!

Gaza War (and other wars)

Media Rules of Engagement

[translated from original Spanish source]

NOTE the twelve golden and infallible truths that the media are obligated to adopt:

1. In the Middle East, the Arabs always attack first and Israel always defends itself. This defense is called 'retaliation'.
2. Neither Arabs, Palestinians nor Lebanese have the right to kill civilians. This is 'terrorism'.
3. Israel has the right to kill civilians. This is called 'legitimate defense'.
4. When Israel massively kills civilians, the Western Powers ask to her do it with courtesy or politeness. This is called 'reaction of the international community'.
5. Neither Palestinians nor Lebanese have the right to capture Israeli soldiers inside military installations with sentry and combat positions. This has to be called 'kidnapping of defenceless civilians'.
6. Israel has the right to kidnap as many Palestinians or Lebanese as they wish and at any time or place. Their present figures are about 10,000 imprisoned, 300 of whom are children and one thousand women. They do not need any evidence about their culpability. Israel has the right to detain such kidnapped prisoners indefinitely, even if they are people democratically elected by Palestinians. This is called 'imprisonment of terrorists'.
7. Whenever the word 'Hizbollah' is mentioned, it is compulsory to add in the same phrase 'supported and financed by Syria and Iran'.
8. When 'Israel' is mentioned it is absolutely forbidden to add 'supported and financed by the United States' This could give the impression that the conflict is uneven and that Israel's existence of is not after all at risk.
9. In any statement about Israel, any mention of the following phrases is to be avoided: 'occupied territories', 'UN resolutions', 'Human Rights violations' or 'Geneva Convention'.
10. Palestinians, as well as Lebanese, always are 'cowards' hiding behind a civil population that dislike them. If they sleep in military accommodation with their families, this has a name: 'cowardice'. Israel is entitled to annihilate with bombs and missiles such barracks where they sleep. This is to be called a 'surgical, high-precision action'.
11. Israelis speak English, French, Spanish or Portuguese better than the Arabs. That is why they deserve to be interviewed more frequently and have better opportunities to explain to the audience at large the above rules, from 1 to 10. This is called 'media neutrality'.
12. Any person in disagreement with the above rules is to be branded a "highly dangerous anti-Semitic terrorist'

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/09/01/media_rules.html

[davereid]

If you had of paid attention earlier, you would have noticed that I don't support either side....My contention is that the IDF are being dumb by trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. They are playing right into the broader HAMAS / Al Queda / {insert Muslim terror group here} long term stratergy.

You might not support one side over the other, but I do.

May Allah and Mohammed kiss the soles of the shoes of Israels prostitutes...

7 million people in Israel.

Invaded by 200 million arabs... in:

1948 Invaded by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - who lost.

1949-1950 Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip.

1950-1956 continuous war with Egyptian fedayeen from Gaza strip

1948-1952 In Libya, Jews were deprived citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.

1956, Egypt, in an act of war, closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, in contravention of the Constantinople Convention. Israel responded on October 29, 1956, by invading the Sinai Peninsula with British and French support. During the Suez Canal Crisis, Israel captured the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula.

1967, Egypt deployed 100,000 soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula. It again closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, returning the region to the way it was in 1956 when Israel was blockaded.

1967, Jordan entered into the mutual defense pact between Egypt and Syria intending to destroy Israel. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) destroyed most of the surprised Egyptian Air Force, then turned east to pulverize the Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Unsurprisingly, given history, Israel didnt give them back this time.

1967, Arab leaders met in Khartoum in response to the war, to discuss the Arab position toward Israel. They reached consensus that there should be:
No recognition of the State of Israel.
No peace with Israel.
No negotiations with Israel.

1969, Egypt initiated the War of Attrition, with the goal of exhausting Israel into surrendering the Sinai Peninsula.

1973, Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, initially overwhelming the surprised Israeli military. When Israel had turned the tide of war, the USSR threatened military intervention. The United States, wary of nuclear war, secured a ceasefire on October 25

After this date, Israel stopped waiting to be attacked.

1981, Israel successfully attacked and destroyed newly built Iraqi nuclear facilities.

1981,Iraq fired 39 missiles into Israel, in the hopes of uniting the Arab world. At the behest of the United States, Israel did not respond to this attack in order to prevent a greater outbreak of war.

The bad guys here all wear hankies on their heads, love Allah and Mohammed, want to mutilate your little girls and use violence to make you appreciate their god.

[SARGE]

Does that mean if yer dead body turned out to be innocent, they'd get a pardon from the IDF?
In the meantime the IDF have killed in excess of 200 children to achieve their mission.


ok.. lets compare the tactics of Hamas with those of the Al Queda groups in Iraq..


July 13 2005 -A suicide bomber kills thirty-four Iraqi boys and one US soldier in Baghdad. The boys were scooping up candy thrown from an American Humvee


Orlando E. Gonzalez, 21, of New Freedom, Pa.; private first class, Army. Gonzalez was among four soldiers killed March 25 when a suicide bomber on a scooter detonated an explosive near them after the paratroopers left their Humvee to hand out candy to a group of children in Baqubah, north of Baghdad. He was assigned to the 5th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division at Ft. Bragg, N.C.


BAGHDAD - Police said Wednesday that children were used in a weekend car bombing in which the driver gained permission to park in a busy shopping area after he pointed out that he was leaving his children in the back seat.

The account appeared to confirm one given Tuesday by a U.S. general. He said children were used in a Sunday bombing in northern Baghdad and labeled it a brutal new tactic put to use by insurgents to battle a 5-week-old security crackdown in the capital.

Maj. Gen. Michael Barbero, deputy director for regional operations on the Joint Staff, said the vehicle used in the attack was waved through a U.S. military checkpoint because two children were visible in the back seat. He said it was the first reported use of children in a car bombing in Baghdad.


life is cheap to these pricks .. women , children, mentally handicapped, dogs, cats, flying squirrels..

i am pretty sure that Hamas knows EXACTLY what will happen and they drag the BBC, CNN and Al Jezera around by the nose rings to make the hippies freak out

[Maki]

Interesting post, Sarge... You got to wonder though, why were they handing out candies? Hundreds of thousands have died in Iraq due to lack of food and medicines. Why did the soldiers not hand out those necessities?

I got to tell you that if my family dies of hunger and lack of medical care due to an occupational force in my country, then I will do whatever it takes to retaliate.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Life is tough, especially when you are stupid.

[SixPackBack]

ok.......................... i am pretty sure that Hamas knows EXACTLY what will happen and they drag the BBC, CNN and Al Jezera around by the nose rings to make the hippies freak out
No one is buying this time SARGE........Hamas deserve to be hammered, fortunately the Jews have a good track record on handing out a hiding

[Oscar]

Indeed it is. But Mr Fisk isn't as impartial as the epithet "journalist" may lead some people to believe.

Ahh, but my own particular motto is "Not Grumpy - Aggressively Cynical".

[SARGE]

No one is buying this time SARGE........Hamas deserve to be hammered, fortunately the Jews have a good track record on handing out a hiding

as ive said before .. hit them till they dont get up anymore .. war aint playtime and this aint the Marquess of Queensberry rules

dont want civilians killed?.. stop hiding behind them and come out and play like big boys..

[Maki]

as ive said before .. hit them till they dont get up anymore .. war aint playtime and this aint the Marquess of Queensberry rules

dont want civilians killed?.. stop hiding behind them and come out and play like big boys..

Bully: " a blustering browbeating person ; especially : one habitually cruel to others who are weaker"

Is that you, Sarge?

What would you call a country that has nuclear weapons, and conventional arms including this impressive air force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf-equipment.htm
That fights a so called war against people who barely have enough resources to put together a few rockets?

Big boys can fight each other fairly. Big boys that gang up on a single weak person are not fighters, they are cowards.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let's look at this another way. You are in a European country occupied by Nazis during WW2. You are active in the resistance against the Germans. Would you put on a uniform and go out and fight the German army like a "big boy". Does that make sense to you?

[SARGE]

Bully: " a blustering browbeating person ; especially : one habitually cruel to others who are weaker"

Is that you, Sarge?

What would you call a country that has nuclear weapons, and conventional arms including this impressive air force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf-equipment.htm
That fights a so called war against people who barely have enough resources to put together a few rockets?

Big boys can fight each other fairly. Big boys that gang up on a single weak person are not fighters, they are cowards.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Let's look at this another way. You are in a European country occupied by Nazis during WW2. You are active in the resistance against the Germans. Would you put on a uniform and go out and fight the German army like a "big boy". Does that make sense to you?

yea..duped by the liberal media

is that you maki??

personal attacks are so yesterday.. you will of course notice that i have not resorted to any..

the resistance fighters in WW2 Europe didnt hide behind women and children.. didnt blow up markets with suicide bombs strapped to mentally handicapped women and didnt run a car bomb into groups of children being handed candy by allied soldiers just to kill 3 soldiers..

welcome to reality dude.. turn off your tv for a few minutes

[Oscar]

ok.. lets compare the tactics of Hamas with those of the Al Queda groups in Iraq..








life is cheap to these pricks .. women , children, mentally handicapped, dogs, cats, flying squirrels..

i am pretty sure that Hamas knows EXACTLY what will happen and they drag the BBC, CNN and Al Jezera around by the nose rings to make the hippies freak out

Why don't you make up your mind?

One minute its:


.. war aint playtime and this aint the Marquess of Queensberry rules

..and the next your bleating about their methods. If the rules don't apply to you, why should they play fair? Get a grip - I'm not saying anything Al Queda or Hamas has done is right - but you'd better get your story straight.

I don't recall any Septics being this forthright when members of my family were fighting (US funded) Provo scum.

And as for this:


dont want civilians killed?.. stop hiding behind them and come out and play like big boys..

Would you, ya big hero?
Take on the IDF with a bunch of irregulars armed with AK47's and RPGs?
What fucking movie are watching in place of reality?

[Oscar]

You might not support one side over the other, but I do.

May Allah and Mohammed kiss the soles of the shoes of Israels prostitutes...

7 million people in Israel.

Invaded by 200 million arabs... in:

1948 Invaded by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - who lost.

1949-1950 Jordan annexed what became known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip.

1950-1956 continuous war with Egyptian fedayeen from Gaza strip

1948-1952 In Libya, Jews were deprived citizenship, and in Iraq, their property was seized.

1956, Egypt, in an act of war, closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and blockaded the Gulf of Aqaba, in contravention of the Constantinople Convention. Israel responded on October 29, 1956, by invading the Sinai Peninsula with British and French support. During the Suez Canal Crisis, Israel captured the Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula.

1967, Egypt deployed 100,000 soldiers in the Sinai Peninsula. It again closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, returning the region to the way it was in 1956 when Israel was blockaded.

1967, Jordan entered into the mutual defense pact between Egypt and Syria intending to destroy Israel. The Israeli Air Force (IAF) destroyed most of the surprised Egyptian Air Force, then turned east to pulverize the Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi air forces. At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights.

Unsurprisingly, given history, Israel didnt give them back this time.

1967, Arab leaders met in Khartoum in response to the war, to discuss the Arab position toward Israel. They reached consensus that there should be:
No recognition of the State of Israel.
No peace with Israel.
No negotiations with Israel.

1969, Egypt initiated the War of Attrition, with the goal of exhausting Israel into surrendering the Sinai Peninsula.

1973, Syria and Egypt attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, initially overwhelming the surprised Israeli military. When Israel had turned the tide of war, the USSR threatened military intervention. The United States, wary of nuclear war, secured a ceasefire on October 25

After this date, Israel stopped waiting to be attacked.

1981, Israel successfully attacked and destroyed newly built Iraqi nuclear facilities.

1981,Iraq fired 39 missiles into Israel, in the hopes of uniting the Arab world. At the behest of the United States, Israel did not respond to this attack in order to prevent a greater outbreak of war.

The bad guys here all wear hankies on their heads, love Allah and Mohammed, want to mutilate your little girls and use violence to make you appreciate their god.

There are 1b Muslims in the world, and you hate each and every one?
Should they all suffer for the sins of a few?

You perhaps don't think that Israel may be provoking these guys, do you (there is an election pending)? Actually the IDF Commander was on TV a little while ago and he said it was the chance of a generation to rid themselves of Hamas. The problem is they obviously don't care how many non-combatants are killed too.

[Jantar]

....What would you call a country that has nuclear weapons, and conventional arms including this impressive air force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf-equipment.htm
That fights a so called war against people who barely have enough resources to put together a few rockets?....

What would you call an armed political group that barely has enough resources to put together a few rockets that indiscriminately fires those rockets against a country that has nuclear weapons, and conventional arms including this impressive air force:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/iaf-equipment.htm ?

I'd call them stupid, unless, that is, they can also muster enough spin to make some people believe that they are the innocent victims.

Maki. May I ask what race/religion you are? I do believe that your bias is more than simple naivity.

[Hitcher]

Big boys that gang up on a single weak person are not fighters, they are cowards.

That depends on whether or not the single weak person is being a cunt. Or not.

[SARGE]

Would you, ya big hero?
Take on the IDF with a bunch of irregulars armed with AK47's and RPGs?


nah.. wouldnt stand toe-to-toe with a better armed opponent..but i wouldnt use human shields either..

reality is relative Oscar..mine is different from yours is different from joe blogs etc.. ..i've seen the reality of combat.. ive seen the tactics these clowns use and ive had the reality of pulling my dead mates out of a smoldering pile of rubble in a shithole middle eastern country after some "freedom Fighter" Hezbollah douchbag thought he'd send us to hell with a truck bomb..whats the worst thing youve ever seen bro?..(if youre a Vet..i apologize..if not..)

Combat is a strange new world bro..situations changes by the micro-second and if youve ever lived in RIGHT NOW longer than it takes a stoplight to change then you can understand what i mean..if your enemy's are hiding amongst the civillian population the stress levels go off the chart.. that woman in a wheelchair .. that 10 year old boy.. the old man with a shopping bag.. then you miss the sniper on the roof or the guy in the second story window tossing grenades into your vehicle or the other guy with the RPG behind the skip..

apparently, the "rules of War" no longer apply in combat.. anyone can be a combatant.. my father was in Viet Nam and told me stories of kids running up to the GI's with an apparently icy cold Coke ( filled with crushed glass) or offering a shoe shine with a shoe shine box filled with explosives..

let me ask you THIS then.. if, as posted earlier, NZ was invaded by Indonesia.. youd YOU strap a C4 backpack onto your kid?

i wouldnt .. but i WOULD target supply lines, C&C bunkers and make life completely miserable for the invaders.. but again.. i wouldnt hide behind women and children (god.. i hate having to explain this over and over..)

[Oscar]

let me ask you THIS then.. if, as posted earlier, NZ was invaded by Indonesia.. youd YOU strap a C4 backpack onto your kid?

i wouldnt .. but i WOULD target supply lines, C&C bunkers and make life completely miserable for the invaders.. but again.. i wouldnt hide behind women and children (god.. i hate having to explain this over and over..)

And this is what it comes down to.

I wouldn't strap C4 to my kid, but neither would I take the chance of killing your kids so as to kill you.

You can talk about the rules of war all you like, but a dead kid is a dead kid and whoever caused its death is a war criminal, and I don't care if he is a Hamas fighter indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel or a IDF Pilot using guided missiles to try and kill the kids' neighbour down the street who is suspected of being Hamas.

[retro asian]

Maybe the middle east thing is bla bla to him now, being 5-6 years old now.


Its a few 1000 years old actually...

[SARGE]

And this is what it comes down to.

I wouldn't strap C4 to my kid, but neither would I take the chance of killing your kids so as to kill you.

You can talk about the rules of war all you like, but a dead kid is a dead kid and whoever caused its death is a war criminal, and I don't care if he is a Hamas fighter indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel or a IDF Pilot using guided missiles to try and kill the kids' neighbour down the street who is suspected of being Hamas.

love your work man.. really.. but again.. in a situation like this.. when you have fighters hidin g amongst the general population hoping that the enemy wont come after you for fear of collateral damage you only have 2 choices..

1) you back down and let the insurgents continue to kill YOUR kids (its a death-spiral from there.. trust me)

2) unleash the dogs of war so the cost to the enemy is too great to bear

Israel is surrounded by Jordan, Syria and all kinds of religious neer-do-wells who claim the holy land for themselves.. its a fucking patch of sand for christs sake.. there is no place on earth that requires a "big stick" foreign policy more than Israel..

maybe we just get everyone together on the Plains of Armageddon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon) and let the party get started.. i'll have a middle management job either way

[Bullitt]

This has to be the oddest war Ive ever experienced. Its even got to the point my gf flat out refuses to discuss it with me. Ive never seen so many people support the bad guys before.

I dont understand how anyone can condone Hamas's actions. I fail to see how theyre really any different from any of the other islamic terrorist groups that have plagued the world for the last while, the only difference is theyre the elected representatives of a country rather than just operating from it...which makes it even worse.

If the people like Maki got their way and Israel was pushed into the sea would you still support their actions? because they wouldnt stop there.

How about wanting to behead Madonna, is that reasonable?

[SARGE]

How about wanting to behead Madonna, is that reasonable?

ummm... yea.. and Justin fucking timberlake right after that

[Maki]

This has to be the oddest war Ive ever experienced. Its even got to the point my gf flat out refuses to discuss it with me. Ive never seen so many people support the bad guys before.

I dont understand how anyone can condone Hamas's actions. I fail to see how theyre really any different from any of the other islamic terrorist groups that have plagued the world for the last while, the only difference is theyre the elected representatives of a country rather than just operating from it...which makes it even worse.

If the people like Maki got their way and Israel was pushed into the sea would you still support their actions? because they wouldnt stop there.

How about wanting to behead Madonna, is that reasonable?


Obviously your gf refuses to discuss it with you because you make silly assumptions.

1. To me the bad guys are an occupational force that kills 70 for every one of theirs that is killed and has far superior weapons and influence on the media.

2. Israel is a country of terrorists, built by terrorists. Anyone who knows anything of the history of the place, past and present knows this. Calling one side in this conflict terrorists and the other something else is insane.

3. And regarding your assumption about me wanting Israel pushed into the sea, well I will not dignify that with an answer because all it is is proof that you have been brainwashed by one sided rhetoric.

To begin to understand how you and the like have been brainwashed, read post number 151 with some simple rules.

[enigma51]

Interesting post, Sarge... You got to wonder though, why were they handing out candies? Hundreds of thousands have died in Iraq due to lack of food and medicines. Why did the soldiers not hand out those necessities?

I got to tell you that if my family dies of hunger and lack of medical care due to an occupational force in my country, then I will do whatever it takes to retaliate.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Life is tough, especially when you are stupid.

Its easy to be on this side of the fence and point....... very easy. I promise that they way you think you will react is not the way you will when some else is intent on killing you. Handing out necessities aint going to be your first priority. Self preservation is going to be the only thing you care about.

[Maki]

Its easy to be on this side of the fence and point....... very easy. I promise that they way you think you will react is not the way you will when some else is intent on killing you. Handing out necessities aint going to be your first priority. Self preservation is going to be the only thing you care about.

Think before you post.

They were IN ACTUAL FACT handing out candies. If they could had out one thing they could hand out another if they so wished. They did not wish it and there are hundreds of thousands dead to attest to that fact.

[enigma51]

Think before you post.

They were IN ACTUAL FACT handing out candies. If they could had out one thing they could hand out another if they so wished. They did not wish it and there are hundreds of thousands dead to attest to that fact.

Have you ever been in that situation?

Again ........ it easy to stand on this side of the fence and point.

Are you going to give the guy that wants to kill your family and friends medicine or food? Are you going to give his family medicine or food knowing that there is very good chance that they feel just as much hate for you?

[Oscar]

Have you ever been in that situation?

Again ........ it easy to stand on this side of the fence and point.

Are you going to give the guy that wants to kill your family and friends medicine or food? Are you going to give his family medicine or food knowing that there is very good chance that they feel just as much hate for you?

Why do they hate you?
Is it anything to do with being landless, jobless and poor?
Fourth generation refugee camp kids who are forced into a physical and economic ghetto surrounded by a wall and the IDF?

[Jantar]

Obviously your gf refuses to discuss it with you because you make silly assumptions.

1. To me the bad guys are an occupational force that kills 70 for every one of theirs that is killed and has far superior weapons and influence on the media.

2. Israel is a country of terrorists, built by terrorists. Anyone who knows anything of the history of the place, past and present knows this. Calling one side in this conflict terrorists and the other something else is insane.

3. And regarding your assumption about me wanting Israel pushed into the sea, well I will not dignify that with an answer because all it is is proof that you have been brainwashed by one sided rhetoric.

To begin to understand how you and the like have been brainwashed, read post number 151 with some simple rules.

Point 1. As Israel is NOT an occupational force, but the legitimate government, by your own definition, they are not the bad guys. Remember Gaza is not a country. Gaza is a terroritory of Israel, and has been this time round since 1967. It has also been Jewish many times in the past.

Point 2. Israeli soldiers wear their insignia and are identifiable as military. They follow military procedures, and attack military targets. Thus they are NOT terrorists under any definition. The only terrorists in this conflict are the ones who dress as civilians, hide among civilians knowing that by doing so civilians will be killed, and target civilians rather than military.

Point 3. By wanting Israel to just sit back and accept that Hamas can kill Israelis without hitting back, you are supporting a regime that has openly stated it will not rest until all jews are dead.

[MisterD]

NOTE the twelve golden and infallible truths that the media are obligated to adopt:


I don't see the bit where the media in general and Reuters in particular should unquestioningly use faked photographs...

[enigma51]

Why do they hate you?
Is it anything to do with being landless, jobless and poor?
Fourth generation refugee camp kids who are forced into a physical and economic ghetto surrounded by a wall and the IDF?

It goes both ways the Israelis hate the Palestine's the Palestine hate the Israelis. You could trace that hate for each other back to the old testament. Its a muslim vs jewish thing more than it is a land thing...... at least in my opinion.

[Grahameeboy]

This guy does know we have newspapers and TV doesn't he...what extra news was he trying to tell us...

I think it is pretty selfish to use an innocent sports person...if he really wants to protest why doesn't he go to Israel and do it...

[slimjim]

This guy does know we have newspapers and TV doesn't he...what extra news was he trying to tell us...

I think it is pretty selfish to use an innocent sports person...if he really wants to protest why doesn't he go to Israel and do it...

cause he'd be dead if he did...:cool:

[Oscar]

It goes both ways the Israelis hate the Palestine's the Palestine hate the Israelis. You could trace that hate for each other back to the old testament. Its a muslim vs jewish thing more than it is a land thing...... at least in my opinion.

I suggest you do some more reading.
The conflict between Jews and Arabs in this area is comparatively modern.

They are also ethnically identical, and the whereas the Muslim faith is relatively new (700AD), Judaism has origins 14 or 15 centuries earlier than that. The two faiths share central figures (like Abraham) and most scholars agree that the share the central deity (in fact Allah and Jehovah / Yehowah and the Christian God are almost certainly the same being according to most theologists).

[Oscar]

I don't see the bit where the media in general and Reuters in particular should unquestioningly use faked photographs...

Where have they used faked photographs lately?
Answer - they don't have to, there is plenty of death and destruction to go around.

[Oscar]

Point 1. As Israel is NOT an occupational force, but the legitimate government, by your own definition, they are not the bad guys. Remember Gaza is not a country. Gaza is a terroritory of Israel, and has been this time round since 1967. It has also been Jewish many times in the past.


Please consult the UN resolution(s) dealing with the foundation of the Jewish State. Both of your contentions in respect of Isreal and Gaza are wrong.
I'd also be interested to know when was the last time any part of this area was Jewish.



Point 2. Israeli soldiers wear their insignia and are identifiable as military. They follow military procedures, and attack military targets. Thus they are NOT terrorists under any definition. The only terrorists in this conflict are the ones who dress as civilians, hide among civilians knowing that by doing so civilians will be killed, and target civilians rather than military.


So what? They are faced with an immensely superior force whose stated aim is to annihilate them.


Point 3. By wanting Israel to just sit back and accept that Hamas can kill Israelis without hitting back, you are supporting a regime that has openly stated it will not rest until all jews are dead.

Again, so what?
You make this sound like Snow White versus Predator.
The IDF Commander has stated that this is a once in a generation opportunity to wipe out Hamas. Each side would kill the other given the opportunity (and at the moment the IDF is the only one with the means).

Remember, this is a Western backed military leader saying he wants to wipe a democratically elected government - what does that say to the rest of the region? We ant Democracy for you, but only on our terms?

[Swoop]

To begin to understand how you and the like have been brainwashed...
I'll finish this one for you... "simply turn on your TV and believe everything that is being said. Do not look for other sources of information. Do not conduct your own research. Always believe the media since they are always correct".

Point 1. As Israel is NOT an occupational force, but the legitimate government, by your own definition, they are not the bad guys. Remember Gaza is not a country. Gaza is a terroritory of Israel, and has been this time round since 1967. It has also been Jewish many times in the past.
Israel has "withdrawn" from Gaza and left it to "self govern" as were the wishes of the populace. The palestinians could have their own bit of land and everyone could live happily ever after...
Until the terrorists decided to start chucking various explosive devices over the border.
Hence the IDF having to go in and sort out the "naughty boys and girls".

If your neighbour kept chucking molotov cocktails over your fence, you would want to have things sorted out damn quick.

[enigma51]

The conflict between Jews and Arabs in this area is comparatively modern.
(in fact Allah and Jehovah / Yehowah and the Christian God are almost certainly the same being according to most theologists).

Im glad i dont live close to you ..... your ass is going to get bombed for saying that.


and you right i should rephrase that Jews think there god is superior to all others and god promised them all the land.

[Oscar]

Im glad i dont live close to you ..... your ass is going to get bombed for saying that.


and you right i should rephrase that Jews think there god is superior to all others and god promised them all the land.

I doubt I'm in any danger - most Muslim theologists agree that the three gods are the same. It also might surprise you to learn that Jesus is a Muslim Prophet.

[Paulo]

It goes both ways the Israelis hate the Palestine's the Palestine hate the Israelis. You could trace that hate for each other back to the old testament. Its a muslim vs jewish thing more than it is a land thing...... at least in my opinion.


Um No, Historically the muslims actually were the most tolerant of the jewish back during the crusades even shielding them from the christians on their crusades, Hence the irony that the British take Arab land that wasn't theirs anyway and then give it to the Jews for a new state. Listen to what Galloway says about the balfour agreement (1917).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUFLpP9Prxo

[enigma51]

I doubt I'm in any danger - most Muslim theologists agree that the three gods are the same. It also might surprise you to learn that Jesus is a Muslim Prophet.

There is also believe that jesus was tough by buddhist monks and thats why he's teaching is so closely related.

Many wars have been fought in the name of god. That god being muslim jewish christian or any other. Its a stupid excuse if you ask me.


On the gaza thing. I dont think either party is doing the right thing. Killing people just causes more hate. But then again you dont go into a lions terrority and throw stones at him and then get surprised when you get bitten. So Hamas really did ask for to get bitten.

[MisterD]

Listen to what Galloway says...

Excellent, we have the makings of a Fuckwit Hall of Fame.

John Minto, Sue Bradford, George Galloway...any other nominations?

[Hitcher]

any other nominations?

Sue Kedgely, Hans Kriek, Jeanette Fitzsimons...

And any other shrill, politically active hand-wringing, pious, vegan, roman-sandal-wearing, tree-hugging, left-leaning, pacifist, dickheads.

[Oscar]

Sue Kedgely, Hans Kriek, Jeanette Fitzsimons...

And any other shrill, politically active hand-wringing, pious, vegan, roman-sandal-wearing, tree-hugging, left-leaning, pacifist, dickheads.

Haven't you got one comma too many ...?

[Big Dave]

'When I die I want to be buried in a Totenham Shirt, Rangers Shorts and England socks.' - The Gazza Strip.

[MisterD]

'When I die I want to be buried in a Totenham Shirt, Rangers Shorts and England socks.' - The Gazza Strip.

Lol, but I think the Rangers shorts should be replaced with Lazio ones...

[SPman]

Could this have something to do with it - save Israel getting it's gas off Egypt, just steamroller Gaza and take the field - cut out the middleman!

Personally, having the attention span of a newt, these days, and the compassion of Great White, I don't give a damn any more if they slaughter each other, yeah, down to the 10th generation!
If they start doing it in my back paddock, then , maybe, I'll show some concern!
They've been at each others throats for 3000 yrs in that neck of the woods, I'm sure they won't stop soon..........

[Winston001]

Please consult the UN resolution(s) dealing with the foundation of the Jewish State. Both of your contentions in respect of Israel and Gaza are wrong.
I'd also be interested to know when was the last time any part of this area was Jewish.

Good point. The UN resolutions which established Israel in 1948 specified two new countries, one of which was to be a Palestinian state - Gaza, and the West Bank. Unfortunately the Security Council vetoed the borders and the Arab nations voted against the idea entirely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

It never got settled. The British had enough on their plates after the war so they left the Israelis and the Palestinians to it. Ok, its more complicated but essentially that is what happened.

Then 5 Arab nations attacked. After the dust settled the Israelis held more land than the original UN plan and they held on to it.

[MisterD]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WRYk0ecSkXc/SWxblPtJCaI/AAAAAAAAA6w/KfLcws6piNE/s400/J+13+(2).jpg

[Jantar]

Wow, what a coincidence.

I have just seen on TVone news a report claiming that a number of ambulances have been hit in Gaza. One of the ones shown was ambulance number 762 with what appears to be identical damage to that claimed to suffered by ambulance 762 in Lebonnon a few years ago.

Why is it that missles designed to destroy tanks leave ambulances so undamaged that they still have all their paintwork?

[retro asian]

Then 5 Arab nations attacked. After the dust settled the Israelis held more land than the original UN plan and they held on to it.

Was pretty darn amazing of them to beat the 5 surrounding enemies.

Of course, in Kung Fu, you are trained to defeat many enemies at once until you reach the final enemy & avenge your father's death....

[SARGE]

I think your cure is a little worse than the disease.

Nagasaki and Hiroshima are populated cities again......

[SARGE]

The reason I favour a nuclear destructive option is to act as a deterent for people wishing to going back there.

holy shit.. a pro-nuke kiwi,,

isnt that one of the 7 signs??

[SARGE]

Interesting post, Sarge... You got to wonder though, why were they handing out candies? Hundreds of thousands have died in Iraq due to lack of food and medicines. Why did the soldiers not hand out those necessities?

I got to tell you that if my family dies of hunger and lack of medical care due to an occupational force in my country, then I will do whatever it takes to retaliate.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Life is tough, especially when you are stupid.

look it up mate.. the US operates med centers that treat civilians.. pass out food and water.. are actively involved in rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure.. we build hospitals.. schools..farms.. and are training Iraqi security forces and police to defend their homeland against insurgents..

how fucking much do you want??

have you ever actually BEEN to the US??.. even MET a real American?

or is it easier and cheaper to follow the sheeple and bitch on the interdweeb about something you know jack shit about?


im happy to sit down and have 10 or 15 beers with ya whenever man..yea.. im a right wing neo-con nutcase.. but im a decent fucker who would give someone in genuine need the shirt off my back

and i HAVE met a real member of Hezbolla..several actually..(ok..maybe not 'had a conversation with'.. but you can find out more about a man when you look him in the eye from 500 meters through a rifle scope than you can from having a beer with him.)

[SARGE]

Have you ever been in that situation?

Again ........ it easy to stand on this side of the fence and point.

Are you going to give the guy that wants to kill your family and friends medicine or food? Are you going to give his family medicine or food knowing that there is very good chance that they feel just as much hate for you?

when i was in Lebanon.. we regularly handed out lollies to kids.. winning hearts and minds..if you can change one persons perception.. you are on your way to stopping a war

[Winston001]

The IDF Commander has stated that this is a once in a generation opportunity to wipe out Hamas. Each side would kill the other given the opportunity (and at the moment the IDF is the only one with the means).

Remember, this is a Western backed military leader saying he wants to wipe a democratically elected government - what does that say to the rest of the region? We ant Democracy for you, but only on our terms?

At first glance this seems a serious attack on democracy. If the people of Gaza elect Hamas to government, that should be respected.

However Hamas was already well-known for terrorism (or freedom-fighting) before the election. They call their Israeli neighbours the enemy and act accordingly. Elections aren't always rational decisions of a populace. Hamas was supported because the Palestinians felt powerless and thought an aggressive government might get some results. The voters had no conception of how their decision would look to the rest of the world.

Germany elected the Nazi Party into power. The average German had no conception of where that would lead.

[Swoop]

TV news last night.

Video footage of a heavy machinegun located in a mosque...

"How surprising".

[MisterD]

...elect Hamas to government...

At least the IRA had the decency to invent another name and pretend that the IRA and Sinn Fein were separate organisations...

[dipshit]

Personally, having the attention span of a newt, these days, and the compassion of Great White, I don't give a damn any more if they slaughter each other, yeah, down to the 10th generation!


Me too. All the Jews, Muslims and Christians (Americans) can all go and kill each other for all I care. :whocares:

[Oscar]

At first glance this seems a serious attack on democracy. If the people of Gaza elect Hamas to government, that should be respected.

However Hamas was already well-known for terrorism (or freedom-fighting) before the election. They call their Israeli neighbours the enemy and act accordingly. Elections aren't always rational decisions of a populace. Hamas was supported because the Palestinians felt powerless and thought an aggressive government might get some results. The voters had no conception of how their decision would look to the rest of the world.

Germany elected the Nazi Party into power. The average German had no conception of where that would lead.

So what are you saying?
Only smart people should vote?
Sounds good to me...

[Skyryder]

Words fail

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK-DYB6YgU8



Skyryder

[Winston001]

So what are you saying?
Only smart people should vote?
Sounds good to me...

Nooooooo but supporting Hamas was a knee-jerk reaction towards extremism and probably happened because Yasser Arafat had died and Fatah looked weak.

Its not as though there wasn't a choice - there are quite a few political groups in the Palestinian National Authority:



Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine) (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
Fatah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah) or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
Palestine Democratic Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Democratic_Union) (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
Palestine Forum (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestine_Forum&action=edit&redlink=1) launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munib_al-Masri), 73
Palestinian National Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Initiative) (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
Palestinian People's Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_People%27s_Party) (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine) (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
Al-Mustaqbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mustaqbal) or The Future
Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28Palestine%29) (centrist)
Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Popular_Struggle_Front) (left-wing)

[Oscar]

Nooooooo but supporting Hamas was a knee-jerk reaction towards extremism and probably happened because Yasser Arafat had died and Fatah looked weak.

Its not as though there wasn't a choice - there are quite a few political groups in the Palestinian National Authority:



Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine) (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
Fatah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah) or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
Palestine Democratic Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Democratic_Union) (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
Palestine Forum (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestine_Forum&action=edit&redlink=1) launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munib_al-Masri), 73
Palestinian National Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Initiative) (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
Palestinian People's Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_People%27s_Party) (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine) (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
Al-Mustaqbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mustaqbal) or The Future
Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28Palestine%29) (centrist)
Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Popular_Struggle_Front) (left-wing)


Which brings us back to the fundamental question: How desperate do you have to be to vote for terrorists? To allow your children to become suicide bombers?

I cannot believe that any group of people are fundamentally evil - these people have been shit upon for three generations, by their own "leaders", by their allies like Jordan and Egypt, by the west and by the Israelis. They have been subject to economic and physical blockade (have you seen the fuck off big wall around the West Bank?) and used as political pawns, firstly in the Cold War and now on the War on Terror.

[Winston001]

Which brings us back to the fundamental question: How desperate do you have to be to vote for terrorists? To allow your children to become suicide bombers?

I cannot believe that any group of people are fundamentally evil - these people have been shit upon for three generations, by their own "leaders", by their allies like Jordan and Egypt, by the west and by the Israelis. They have been subject to economic and physical blockade (have you seen the fuck off big wall around the West Bank?) and used as political pawns, firstly in the Cold War and now on the War on Terror.

No argument about that. Desperation. I've always thought the wall was a mistake too even if it worked in the short-term.

I'm trying to think of anywhere in the world where such a situation has been resolved. No with the Basques, no with the Tamil Tigers, maybe with Northern Ireland, perhaps with the Balkans - but probably not.

So long as the cultural memory of the Palestinians is that they are victims and the Israelis should be killed, this conflict will continue.

We should recognise that not all Palestinians feel this way, and certainly not all Israelis. There are moderates on both sides and in fact in Israel, there is plenty of open debate in support of the Palestinians.

[Street Gerbil]

Which brings us back to the fundamental question: How desperate do you have to be to vote for terrorists? To allow your children to become suicide bombers?

They were not desperate, just upset and misguided. They were very upset at Fatah for being essentially a criminal organization and running the Autonomy as its personal fiefdom. They were quite pissed at the fact that they lived in shit and Arafat's cronies were filthy rich, that any government service required a bribe, and not in the least that it was safer to marry ugly girls because pretty ones were routinely kidnapped and raped by the Fatah men and the "police" (i.e. Fatah men) would not do squat about it. With Hamas promises to end the corruption and punish the corrupted officials (which they eventually did with the bone-chilling efficiency that makes Don Corleone look like Mother Theresa in comparison, given that by their standards having your kneecaps shot or drilled through is considered relatively light and humane punishment) it seemed like a simple choice. Unfortunately the most dangerous lie is truth but not the whole truth. A vast majority voted for Hamas to punish corrupt and inept Fatah, rather than because they wanted to end up being cannon fodder for Islamic militant ambitions. A few folks I chatted with, kept telling the same old "had we known...". What they did not realize is that once the thugs are in power, there is no going back. Russians made the same mistake with Putin.

[SARGE]

Me too. All the Jews, Muslims and Christians (Americans) can all go and kill each other for all I care. :whocares:

oh look.. another crackhead for the ignore list


348 and counting

[SARGE]

Nooooooo but supporting Hamas was a knee-jerk reaction towards extremism and probably happened because Yasser Arafat had died and Fatah looked weak.

Its not as though there wasn't a choice - there are quite a few political groups in the Palestinian National Authority:



Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine) (al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (socialist)
Fatah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah) or Palestinian Liberation Movement (harakat al-tahrīr al-filastīnī) (centre-left)
Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) or Islamic Resistance Movement (harakat al-muqāwamah al-islāmiyyah) (Islamist)
Palestine Democratic Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Democratic_Union) (al-ittihād al-dīmūqrātī al-filastīnī, FiDA) (centre-left)
Palestine Forum (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Palestine_Forum&action=edit&redlink=1) launched 16 November 2007 by billionaire businessman Munib al-Masri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munib_al-Masri), 73
Palestinian National Initiative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Initiative) (al-mubādara al-wataniya al-filastīniyya) (centrist)
Palestinian People's Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_People%27s_Party) (hizb al-sha`b al-filastīnī) (left-wing)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine) (al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn) (communist)
Al-Mustaqbal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Mustaqbal) or The Future
Third Way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28Palestine%29) (centrist)
Palestinian Popular Struggle Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Popular_Struggle_Front) (left-wing)



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[Wally Simmonds]

..........

Yep, it's a pity these groups aren't civilised like Western political parties isn't it.

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I can't see how this sort of thing can continue. Is it much of a stretch of the imagination to wonder what would happen to the region if American military aid were to dry up due to severe economic conditions?

I've always been of the opinion that Israel should be the bigger man in this - given the stats on those 'rockets' actually hitting anything I would bet the costs of this sort of military operation would be better diverted into developing defensive weapons that would make the rockets extremely unlikely to make it over. Not to mention they'd make a killing onselling the tech to everyone else.

It's clear that the Palestinian leadership are never going to bow out of this one. The mindset is too ingrained..so I'd hope that people that supposedly have a better education and a better chance of living a decent life would make more empathetic decisions other than 'Crush the terrorist scum' every 5 or so years. It doesn't fucking work, guys.

[SARGE]

I've always been of the opinion that Israel should be the bigger man in this - given the stats on those 'rockets' actually hitting anything I would bet the costs of this sort of military operation would be better diverted into developing defensive weapons that would make the rockets extremely unlikely to make it over. Not to mention they'd make a killing onselling the tech to everyone else.


not really the point on whether they hit anything or not.. fact is..if my neighbor were throwing rocks at my house after i asked him to stop i think my "bigger man" reaction would be to rock over to his place and pound the dogshit out of him

[Wally Simmonds]

not really the point on whether they hit anything or not.. fact is..if my neighbor were throwing rocks at my house after i asked him to stop i think my "bigger man" reaction would be to rock over to his place and pound the dogshit out of him

Yep. And that tactic has worked so well for everyone who has tried it.

[SARGE]

Yep. And that tactic has worked so well for everyone who has tried it.

yup.. slavery.. WW1.. WW2..Yom Kippur, i could go on


people would be surprised at exactly what violence DOES solve

[Wally Simmonds]

yup.. slavery.. WW1.. WW2..Yom Kippur, i could go on


people would be surprised at exactly what violence DOES solve

I think most people would be quite surprised! It's a pity you couldn't give more recent examples. I'll even let you off - you don't have to involve the US military if you're finding it a little hard.

[McJim]

If everyone would just sit down and watch "You don't mess with the Zohan" all the troubles would stop overnight.

[SARGE]

I think most people would be quite surprised! It's a pity you couldn't give more recent examples. I'll even let you off - you don't have to involve the US military if you're finding it a little hard.

ohh..(giggle) .. i love making it personal... careful where you step padwan



Grenada was a bit of a party.. 5 days of firefight.. 5 weeks of surfing..(ok... that was '83)


the second battle of Fajulla was a good example of overwhelming force.. so was Ramaldi.. taking Saddam's sons out was not a slap fight..neither was Tora Bora.. (ok.. Bin Laden "got away".. more on that as it becomes necessary)..

do i need to get into chapters or will the readers digest version work?.. i have heaps more if ya need..

[Wally Simmonds]

No, that's fine, excuse me if my interpretation of 'success' is different to what yours is.

[SARGE]

No, that's fine, excuse me if my interpretation of 'success' is different to what yours is.

different strokes bro

[dipshit]

people would be surprised at exactly what violence DOES solve

It's the American way after all.

[MisterD]

Is it much of a stretch of the imagination to wonder what would happen to the region if American military aid were to dry up due to severe economic conditions?

Or what would happen if some useful person put a bullet through Armeddinnerjacket and Iran stopped it's support for Hamas and Hisbollah?

Let get this straight, Israel doesn't want Gaza, it tried to give it back to Egypt in 1979 but Egypt said 'no thanks'...all Israel wants is the right to exist and not be constantly attacked.

[jonbuoy]

Its a shit fight, like most of Africa only more high tech and it always will be until only one is left standing.

[Hitcher]

people would be surprised at exactly what violence DOES solve

Indeed. If nothing else it is cathartic.

[Winston001]

I think most people would be quite surprised! It's a pity you couldn't give more recent examples. I'll even let you off - you don't have to involve the US military if you're finding it a little hard.

Good posts above Wally, just have to argue a bit.

North Vietnam won the war, Tibet - China won and is overwhelming the locals with Han immigration, the Balkans - only quietened down when the Americans got fed up with European dithering and acted, Falklands - Britain won, South Africa - ANC won, Georgia - Transnistria - Russia won, etc etc.

Violence can be preventative. There is a difference between aggression and defence. The Mongrel Mob commit violent crime, the Police need to use batons, tear gas, and pistols to stop and apprehend the criminals.

Should the Allies have stood back when Hitler controlled the whole of Europe and asked him to please stop and go home?

There is an excellent earlier post along the lines that if someone kept firing arrows into your house and you had an M16, is it any surprise that you eventually use it?

[Hitcher]

Violence is part of what defines us as humans. While this attribute may offend us, we have it hard wired into us. This programming is there for a reason and we need to use it wisely and only when necessary.

Humans are not pacifists or vegetarians. Some members of our community need to get with the programme.

[Winston001]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I can't see how this sort of thing can continue. Is it much of a stretch of the imagination to wonder what would happen to the region if American military aid were to dry up due to severe economic conditions?

Israel has its own arms industry and could buy small arms from Belgium, Sweden etc but certainly the balance of power would shift. Other states wouldn't stop suplying Hizbollah and Hamas.


I've always been of the opinion that Israel should be the bigger man in this - given the stats on those 'rockets' actually hitting anything I would bet the costs of this sort of military operation would be better diverted into developing defensive weapons that would make the rockets extremely unlikely to make it over. Not to mention they'd make a killing onselling the tech to everyone else.

Agreed - and that is why they built that awful wall - to be defensive.

I'm glad you touched on Israel taking the high moral ground because as a nation, it does. Essentially it is a first world economy whose people just want to live in peace. The average Israeli has learned to live with the possibility of violence but don't think about it much. Hatred of the Palestinians/Arabs isn't taught as doctrine.

Israel has had quite a few opportunities to hugely expand the size of the whole country but hasn't done so. None of this is any help to the Palestinians but they lived side by side with Jewish settlers before 1948, its possible to do it again.

[Wally Simmonds]

Good posts above Wally, just have to argue a bit.

North Vietnam won the war, Tibet - China won and is overwhelming the locals with Han immigration, the Balkans - only quietened down when the Americans got fed up with European dithering and acted, Falklands - Britain won, South Africa - ANC won, Georgia - Transnistria - Russia won, etc etc.

Violence can be preventative. There is a difference between aggression and defence. The Mongrel Mob commit violent crime, the Police need to use batons, tear gas, and pistols to stop and apprehend the criminals.

Should the Allies have stood back when Hitler controlled the whole of Europe and asked him to please stop and go home?

There is an excellent earlier post along the lines that if someone kept firing arrows into your house and you had an M16, is it any surprise that you eventually use it?

Of course that's acceptable, but I don't think it's applicable in this case as it's not a case of 'eventually' but more 'every fucking time'. The option of violence in the area is often first resort (this isn't just applicable to the Israelis either, I could name a couple of other nation-states that seem a bit too quick on the trigger when irked)

My point is that there seems to be mindset of 'my sides better than yours, so I'm right' which isn't ever going to resolve anything. I don't really see this being addressed by either side although I'd hope that more educated minds could see the futility of bombing the crap out of Gaza for the hundredth time as it's not going to do anything but create the next generation of dumbarses wanting to push Israel into the sea.

These guys are quite happy to give their lives away not only because of religion but because they've little to lose and at least they'll go down sticking to what they percieve 'the man' to be. My stance would be trying to invest a little less in the military and a little more on giving the Pals a reason not to give their lives away so easily. If the region was actually allowed to prosper with some economic assistance from Arab states (which could be funnelled from the West, if necessary) organisations like Hamas might find it a bit harder to find recruits.

Sure, I don't think that the various organisations in Gaza happy with the Status quo are going to sit by and idly watch this happen but that's where you use your intelligence agencies to your full advantage to sway individuals around to your way of thinking.

As for stopping Iran funding these guys - honestly, let's change scenarios. Let's say the Chinese invaded Mexico and had enclaves sitting down in Panama and were had allies hostile to the US in Latin American countries. Would you expect the States to sit on their hands?

[Winston001]

As for stopping Iran funding these guys - honestly, let's change scenarios. Let's say the Chinese invaded Mexico and had enclaves sitting down in Panama and were had allies hostile to the US in Latin American countries. Would you expect the States to sit on their hands?

JFK. Cuban Missile Crisis 1961.

[Oscar]

As for stopping Iran funding these guys - honestly, let's change scenarios. Let's say the Chinese invaded Mexico and had enclaves sitting down in Panama and were had allies hostile to the US in Latin American countries. Would you expect the States to sit on their hands?

Munroe Doctrine.

[Winston001]

Ok. My longterm hope to overcome political and religious oppression is the internet. That might sound ludicrous but never before have ideas and information been able to circulate the world so swiftly. China tries to block it but plenty of young Chinese get around the blocks.

Education and hope are what is needed for billions of semi-literate poor people all over the world. The Pals have no hope at the moment which drives them to extreme behaviour.

The really big problem globally though is burgening population growth and dwindling resources. The hope of attaining our First World lifestyle, for the 75% currently missing out simply isn't possible.

To that extent the problem is insoluble until the world's population drops back to about 2 billion.

[Swoop]

Israel has its own arms industry...
I posted this (http://www.israel-weapon.com/default.asp?catid={BE33B6E6-080B-45B8-AD85-C4E1E40D0422}) link in another thread.
Some kids have nice toys.

The option of violence in the area is often first resort (this isn't just applicable to the Israelis either,...
You believe that Israel was "quick on the trigger" to get into Gaza then??

[Wally Simmonds]

They've been planning this invasion for months, same as Hamas have been planning for it as well.

Both parties are quick to jump to violence - it doesn't work. We'll be back here in a few years discussing the same shit.

[Swoop]

They've been planning this invasion for months,

Both parties are quick to jump to violence

So you discount the years of having to put up with hamas terrorist's firing bombs and missiles into Israel?
This was a "spur of the moment" attack?

[Oscar]

So you discount the years of having to put up with hamas terrorist's firing bombs and missiles into Israel?
This was a "spur of the moment" attack?

So the Israelis have done absolutely nothing to provoke this?

No walls.
No settlement.
No checkpoints.
No detention without trial.

Nothing?

[Winston001]

They've been planning this invasion for months, same as Hamas have been planning for it as well.

Both parties are quick to jump to violence - it doesn't work. We'll be back here in a few years discussing the same shit.

Maybe I'm wrong but I've never perceived Israel as quick to jump to violence. Its always seemed that they put up with Hizbollah lobbing bombs out of Lebanon or Hamas doing the same from Gaza until eventually it gets too much. Every few years the Israelis loose patience and push back.

If this wasn't true then they wouldn't waste time and money building the wall - they'd have attacked Gaza 3 years ago.

[Wally Simmonds]

Yes, but what caused them to lob bombs/rockets over? The general consensus of the Western media is that it's Hamas' doctrine to 'push Israel into the sea' without really delving into it further. People buy into it because it doesn't require them to think about the situation. And it's much easier to blame Isreal who are at least partially at fault than Hamas if you're a Palastinian.

Contrary to popular belief, people just don't turn into terrorists. I know after a few decades of blockade and seeing my old man getting roughed up by Israeli paramilitary groups I would be pretty tempted to have a go, eh.

Fortunately, I've got a western education and realise that that sort of behaviour is only going to get me killed.

[vifferman]

I can't help but feel that the lack of agreement on this thread is somehow illustrative when you consider the Israel vs. Plaestine thing.

[Winston001]

I can't help but feel that the lack of agreement on this thread is somehow illustrative when you consider the Israel vs. Palestine thing.

Yeah but we're exchanging ideas and learning bits here and there. For example Street Gerbil's explanation about Fatah and corruption which is why Hamas looked more attractive.

And we'd get the same disagreement in a Protestant v Catholic argument, OZ v NZ, Crusaders v Blues etc etc. However people can be persuaded to change their point of view or at least rethink when ideas are discussed.

[Winston001]

Yes, but what caused them to lob bombs/rockets over?......

Aw stone the crows mate, they're ragheads, baddies, what more do ya need?? :D

[SARGE]

Indeed. If nothing else it is cathartic.

mmmmmm... can o' whoopass...
http://www.paleocurrents.com/img/homer_drool.JPG

[SARGE]

Indeed. If nothing else it is cathartic.

mmmmmm... can o' whoopass...


http://homepage.mac.com/onehundredbhq/.Public/homer.jpg

[dipshit]

North Vietnam won the war, Tibet - China won and is overwhelming the locals with Han immigration, the Balkans - only quietened down when the Americans got fed up with European dithering and acted, Falklands - Britain won, South Africa - ANC won, Georgia - Transnistria - Russia won, etc etc.

Communism and the Berlin Wall fell in Europe because people got sick of it... not from military action.

The IRA disarmed because people got sick of it... not from military action.

The fighting in Bosnia stopped when people got sick of it... not from the intervening military action.

More often than not military action hardens people's resolve.

[wbks]

Maybe people will get sick of Hamas causing the death's of civilians by hiding in schools, and kick Hamas out. Seems like they are just looking for a quick fix to stop the Hamas missiles and mortars for the time being, though.

[Wally Simmonds]

Communism and the Berlin Wall fell in Europe because people got sick of it... not from military action.


To be fair, I'd say the reason why Communism fell was because they ran out of money largely due to certain wars in Afghanistan (generalising I know...)

I suspect this conflict will be ended the same way - because one side can't continue supplying weapons anymore.

What will run out first? Palistinian birth rate and Ak's, or the US treasury?

[Swoop]

The IRA disarmed because people got sick of it... not from military action.
Rubbish.
It all stopped because the American funding dried up after 9/11, when terrorist organisations became illegal to fund.

[Swoop]

So the Israelis have done absolutely nothing to <strike>provoke</strike> PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING?

No walls to prevent terrorists from strolling across the border with their semtex undergarments.
No settlement rights granted for palestinians to live in an area of their own.
No checkpoints to search for not-very-smart-bombs in the waistcoat.
Corrections made, just for you.:hug:


Also "No detention without trial."?
Is this like when hamas terrorists capture uniformed troops, torture them and then execute them?
Perhaps being detained by the Israelis is better than being "detained" by terrorists.

[James Deuce]

Blimey!

Still going.

I wondered why the smell of piss lay heavily upon the evening wind.

[Street Gerbil]

Would Germany be such a prosperous and peaceful place today if allies would have kept signing temporary truce agreements with Hitler, allowing him to rearm and regroup, instead of bombing Nazi Germany into unconditional surrender?
Would there be a World War II if not for the infamous "land for peace" deal?

[Hitcher]

Would Germany be such a prosperous and peaceful place today if allies would have kept signing temporary truce agreements with Hitler, allowing him to rearm and regroup, instead of bombing Nazi Germany into unconditional surrender?
Would there be a World War II if not for the infamous "land for peace" deal?

One could construct a highly entertaining counterfactual around such a proposition. There are others worthy of consideration as well: What if the conspiring generals had successfully topped their fuhrer in 1944? What if Hitler had pressed westwards after taking France, instead of committing his forces to a war on an eastern front as well? What if America had entered the war in Europe earlier? What if the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour? What if the British had declared war before Germany invaded Poland?

[James Deuce]

One could construct a highly entertaining counterfactual around such a proposition. There are others worthy of consideration as well: What if the conspiring generals had successfully topped their fuhrer in 1944? What if Hitler had pressed westwards after taking France, instead of committing his forces to a war on an eastern front as well? What if America had entered the war in Europe earlier? What if the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour? What if the British had declared war before Germany invaded Poland?

Bear in mind that the US would most likely have shook Hitler by the hand and invaded Canada if the Sceptred Isles had fallen.

NZ declared war on Germany in her own right, mere hours after the UK did.

What a spanking we were in for if Hitler had ignored Russia and finished the UK.

[Winston001]

One could construct a highly entertaining counterfactual around such a proposition. There are others worthy of consideration as well:

What if the conspiring generals had successfully topped their fuhrer in 1944?

What if Hitler had pressed westwards after taking France, instead of committing his forces to a war on an eastern front as well?

What if America had entered the war in Europe earlier?

What if the Japanese hadn't attacked Pearl Harbour?

What if the British had declared war before Germany invaded Poland?

Just for fun I'll have a crack:

July Plot win - armistice but a bloody tough one, possibly a different Iron Curtain shape

West? What? Conquer the Atlantic?? Not while Britain, Switzerland, Sweden and Spain still needed to be brought into the Thousand Year Reich. Besides, Stalin would have attacked anyway, and Germany needed the oil resources through to the Caspian.

America much earlier? That would have been interesting and much more likely for Hitler to survive and end in armistice. Germany was bloody strong militarily and with no Russian Front, could have held the Allies to a draw.

No Pearl Harbour - would that mean Japan abandoning its aggression on the Pacific Rim? Nope so the Philipines or someone would have drawn America into action to stop Japan. America had cut off economic contact with Japan by 1939.

Germany swallowed Austria under the Anschluss on 12 March 1938, invaded Czechoslovakia on 15 March 1939, and attacked Poland on 1 September 1939. Britain could have declared war before then but it only had a treaty to support Poland, and Czeckoslovakia didn't scream for help. I sincerely doubt Hitler would have been worried - he had contempt for Chamberlain and wanted the industrial heart of Poland.

[Street Gerbil]

This is what's wrong with radical left governments everywhere and especially in Israel.
Olmert is having his own "Mission accomplished" moment. All the goals of the operation "Cast Lead" have been accomplished, and victorious Israel declares unilateral ceasefire. Let's see:
* Gilad Shalit? Check.
* Missiles and mortars from Gaza? Check.
* Hamas toppled? Check.
Mission accomplished, indeed.

Instead of finishing this once and for all, Israeli government has applied its favorite bandaid treatment to a festering wound and live Hamas to rearm and regroup for another government to deal with.
And to those of you applauding this decision for the sake of innocent palestinian civilians, here is something to think about: when you go through a tooth extraction, would you rather have it pulled in two seconds or in a dozen of weekly sessions two hours each? If Israel is guilty of any crimes against palestinians, this is it - not ridding them of Hamastanian thugocracy when they had the chance. All those palestinian civilian human shields, and all Israeli soldiers putting themselves in harm's way to minimize casualties to aforementioned civilians have died for nothing. It is abominable. Not that I expected radical left Israeli government and its moron-in-chief to do any better. Oh well, let's see if Nataniahu will handle matters any better.